End game: current difficulty

[BigErkyKid]

Hi forumites,



When the Legendary Raids came out, there was a lot of controversy over whether Legendary Elite was "too much" in some senses. Mob saves are quite hight (particularly fortitude) and their damage is so high that most characters can not stand two hits in a row without healing. Even more, certain mobs, like Sorjek, are 1 shooting non tanky characters.

The general complain is that it favored cheesy approaches instead of providing challenge. For example, instead of needed a maxxed out wizard to be able to overcome spell resistance and saves, moving to shiradi. Or instead of doing melee, using a mechanic or some other good DPS ranged character.

Another issue that was brought up is that the level of damage the mobs put out is so high that it breaks the traditional "marginal differences" approach DDO has. Typically, well built toons must make some choices between defense and offense that result in marginal differences. For example, slotting a quality+insight PRR item, or rather using that for a DPS / utility slot. However, in the current end game, those differences are no longer that relevant. In many scenarios marginal differences do not make or break survivability, since the damage is so high that survivability becomes a step function.

While there was some initial outrage, most people have moved on one way or another and now LE raids are run frequently in organized groups (and good PUGs). To be clear, most random groups cannot complete LE (or even LH sometimes), but strong guilds and groups of players are completing LE just fine. For an example, see this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhr82kRqisc) of a LE shroud (probably the top difficulty in the game) finished in around 30 minutes. Typically the strategy followed involves some good DC, kiting of certain bosses, and generally accepting that you are going to die now and then.

So this is my question: is the level of challenge currently offered by the game acceptable? Is it well designed, that is, designed in a way that is fun to play and uses the abilities of the different toons to its best? Is it hard enough, at top difficulties, to be a noteworthy achievement?

My personal opinion is that it is not. While we still see groups failing (for instance I led to failed LH hounds recently), good guilds / groups regularly complete the content in what can be considered "speed runs". If it can be speed run, it is not a true challenge in my book. I understand that some people might think it is at a good spot: reachable for excellent groups, still not there for strong groups, and impossible for average. That's fine, I just don't share that view. For example, IMHO no spell or ability should be 95% in end game.

Thoughts?

PS- Another issue is that availability of stuff to do at cap, but my understanding is that they are attempting to build that (and would belong to a different discussion).

[slarden]

Hi forumites,



When the Legendary Raids came out, there was a lot of controversy over whether Legendary Elite was "too much" in some senses. Mob saves are quite hight (particularly fortitude) and their damage is so high that most characters can not stand two hits in a row without healing. Even more, certain mobs, like Sorjek, are 1 shooting non tanky characters.

The general complain is that it favored cheesy approaches instead of providing challenge. For example, instead of needed a maxxed out wizard to be able to overcome spell resistance and saves, moving to shiradi. Or instead of doing melee, using a mechanic or some other good DPS ranged character.

Another issue that was brought up is that the level of damage the mobs put out is so high that it breaks the traditional "marginal differences" approach DDO has. Typically, well built toons must make some choices between defense and offense that result in marginal differences. For example, slotting a quality+insight PRR item, or rather using that for a DPS / utility slot. However, in the current end game, those differences are no longer that relevant. In many scenarios marginal differences do not make or break survivability, since the damage is so high that survivability becomes a step function.

While there was some initial outrage, most people have moved on one way or another and now LE raids are run frequently in organized groups (and good PUGs). To be clear, most random groups cannot complete LE (or even LH sometimes), but strong guilds and groups of players are completing LE just fine. For an example, see this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhr82kRqisc) of a LE shroud (probably the top difficulty in the game) finished in around 30 minutes. Typically the strategy followed involves some good DC, kiting of certain bosses, and generally accepting that you are going to die now and then.

So this is my question: is the level of challenge currently offered by the game acceptable? Is it well designed, that is, designed in a way that is fun to play and uses the abilities of the different toons to its best? Is it hard enough, at top difficulties, to be a noteworthy achievement?

My personal opinion is that it is not. While we still see groups failing (for instance I led to failed LH hounds recently), good guilds / groups regularly complete the content in what can be considered "speed runs". If it can be speed run, it is not a true challenge in my book. I understand that some people might think it is at a good spot: reachable for excellent groups, still not there for strong groups, and impossible for average. That's fine, I just don't share that view. For example, IMHO no spell or ability should be 95% in end game.

Thoughts?

PS- Another issue is that availability of stuff to do at cap, but my understanding is that they are attempting to build that (and would belong to a different discussion).

I think you are wrong about DC wizards switching to Shiradi. DC wizards and warlocks are extremely useful in all the raids - less so in LE Hox simply because of anti-magic which shiradi doesn't fix.

The saves in LE Tempest Spine are reasonable. With a 90s DC the giants, rust monsters and scorpions will save, but with some debuffing you can take them out.

Shroud is tougher but warlock DC against will save (hurl / Devour) is solid and wizard/warlock DC against fort save might require some debuffing for some enemies. Still insta-killers will lead kill count in LE TS and LE Shroud so there is absolutely no problem there except for occasional jealousy from people that don't understand it's their job to kill the trash fast so the rest of the party can focus on other things.

LE Tempest Spine is pugged regulary and all the ones I have been in succeeded. On Friday I pugged LE Hox and first run was a wipe because someone was picking up stones and not telling people or trading. After a bit more coordination a completely pugged LE Hox succeeded even with some problems (trash got into middle and charmed dogs focused on them, beholder got in middle and removed charm). I wouldn't say it was an easy victory but we succeeded and I fully expected that as we had some solid people in the group and about 6 random people I didn't know - all first lifers. The pug LE Shroud I was in the same day failed, but honestly it should have been a success. While killing the book there was too many people killing trash competing for kill count and even though we had high DC wizard that could have had success CC even with no enchantment emphasis, no cc was used at all. LE Shroud pug has been maybe 75% success which isn't bad, but of course the quality of random people joining pugs these days is usually good. In the case of the fail it was advertised as LH and switched to LE at last second and many of us were on sub-optimal alts. Also the group was good, but very overconfident after first 4 parts went easy.

My feeling about challenge is that I will take what Turbine throws at me. I don't like the one-shotting, but I also did 0 whining about it. It sucks to be a melee rogue in LE shroud unless you have alot of LGS hp boosting, but that is the way it goes. Don't ask for challenge and then complain about dying when Turbine gives it. Just play the game or don't...

[BigErkyKid]

I think you are wrong about DC wizards switching to Shiradi. DC wizards and warlocks are extremely useful in all the raids - less so in LE Hox simply because of anti-magic which shiradi doesn't fix.

The saves in LE Tempest Spine are reasonable. With a 90s DC the giants, rust monsters and scorpions will save, but with some debuffing you can take them out.

Shroud is tougher but warlock DC again will save (hurl / Devour) is solid and wizard/warlock DC against fort save might require some debuffing for some enemies. Still instakillers will lead kill count in LE TS and LE Shroud so there is absolutely no problem there except for occasional jealousy from people that don't understand it's their job to kill the trash fast so the rest of the party can focus on other things.

LE Tempest Spine is pugged regulary and all the ones I have been in succeeded. Pugged LE Hox and first run was wipe because someone was picking up stones and not telling people or trading. After a bit more coordination a completely Pugged LE Hox succeeded even with some problems (trash got into middle and charmed dogs focused on them, beholder got in middle and removed charm). I wouldn't say it was an easy victory but we succeeded and I fully expected that as we had some solid people in the group and about 6 random people I didn't know - all first lifers. The LE Shroud I was in failed, but honestly it should have been a success. While killing the book there was too many people killing trash competing for kill count and even though we had high DC wizard that could have had success CC even with no enchantment emphasis, no cc was used at all. LE Shroud pug has been maybe 75% which isn't bad, but of course the quality of random people joining pugs these days is usually good. In the case of the fail it was advertised as LH and switched to LE at last second and many of us were on sub-optimal alts.

My feeling about challenge is that I will take what Turbine throws at me. I don't like the one-shotting, but I also did 0 whining about it. It sucks to be a melee rogue in LE shroud unless you have alot of LGS hp boosting, but that is the way it goes.


I know that nowadays you can succeed with DCs in shroud. I just posted a video of it. But on release it was a lot harder, and hence the return of shiradi. Note that I say that DC Based CC is commonly used.


You can take whatever turbine throws at you. That's actually the only option we have, besides not playing. I just like to give my 2 cents.

[Artrish]

So this is my question: is the level of challenge currently offered by the game acceptable? Is it well designed, that is, designed in a way that is fun to play and uses the abilities of the different toons to its best? Is it hard enough, at top difficulties, to be a noteworthy achievement?

I find that side of the game very unchallenging and avoid it. Not in terms of quest dynamics, just in terms of the build design and game mechanics. Things are so extreme that there are vey few paths to take to tackle scenarios on the builds in game. It is very fun the first couple times inside, that first short period of learning something new and overcoming a seemingly tough challenge. Other then that I find the quest designs and mechanics work well to provide people with a quest experience using specific roles.

The groups that I have participated in want builds to be very specific and roles to be so defined that people are shunned or abused if they don't meet expectations creating a very "get to work slave" feel. I play these games to have fun in a relaxing and pleasing environment away from the stresses of my job. As I tr my toon to do my respecs, I lost interest in grinding up 30-100 hours quest time to respec to a specific build style just to do a couple of raids a certain way over and over and over and over. So I just stick to the heroic scene where character flexibility thrives and hope they don't mess with it all too much when people throw around the word easy about the place.

In terms of those that stay in that content and keep it running, I don't view what they do as any different an accomplishment to anyone elses goals. Learn the mechanics, learn the builds, run it often and as time goes on you get better at it which is the same process as everyone. I often wonder why people don't find that style boring though I meet many people that are having a tonne of fun trying to grind up specific builds they find just to get a chance to run in there so I am thankful it exists as it is nice to have company on the levelling circuit while I am grinding away at my own goals.

[Forzah]

Hi forumites,



When the Legendary Raids came out, there was a lot of controversy over whether Legendary Elite was "too much" in some senses. Mob saves are quite hight (particularly fortitude) and their damage is so high that most characters can not stand two hits in a row without healing. Even more, certain mobs, like Sorjek, are 1 shooting non tanky characters.

The general complain is that it favored cheesy approaches instead of providing challenge. For example, instead of needed a maxxed out wizard to be able to overcome spell resistance and saves, moving to shiradi. Or instead of doing melee, using a mechanic or some other good DPS ranged character.

Another issue that was brought up is that the level of damage the mobs put out is so high that it breaks the traditional "marginal differences" approach DDO has. Typically, well built toons must make some choices between defense and offense that result in marginal differences. For example, slotting a quality+insight PRR item, or rather using that for a DPS / utility slot. However, in the current end game, those differences are no longer that relevant. In many scenarios marginal differences do not make or break survivability, since the damage is so high that survivability becomes a step function.

While there was some initial outrage, most people have moved on one way or another and now LE raids are run frequently in organized groups (and good PUGs). To be clear, most random groups cannot complete LE (or even LH sometimes), but strong guilds and groups of players are completing LE just fine. For an example, see this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhr82kRqisc) of a LE shroud (probably the top difficulty in the game) finished in around 30 minutes. Typically the strategy followed involves some good DC, kiting of certain bosses, and generally accepting that you are going to die now and then.

So this is my question: is the level of challenge currently offered by the game acceptable? Is it well designed, that is, designed in a way that is fun to play and uses the abilities of the different toons to its best? Is it hard enough, at top difficulties, to be a noteworthy achievement?

My personal opinion is that it is not. While we still see groups failing (for instance I led to failed LH hounds recently), good guilds / groups regularly complete the content in what can be considered "speed runs". If it can be speed run, it is not a true challenge in my book. I understand that some people might think it is at a good spot: reachable for excellent groups, still not there for strong groups, and impossible for average. That's fine, I just don't share that view. For example, IMHO no spell or ability should be 95% in end game.

Thoughts?

PS- Another issue is that availability of stuff to do at cap, but my understanding is that they are attempting to build that (and would belong to a different discussion).

It's not very well designed. The mobs have too high damage and hp, only to offset deficiencies in the artificial intellegence that are easily exploited.

Any improvement should start with fixes to the AI. A simple fix is making mobs slightly faster than the player. Another simple fix is to make mobs move to your predicted location 0.1 seconds from now, instead of your current location. Those two fixes would heavily reduce effectiveness of cheesy tactics such as kiting. More difficult fixes involve creative usage of a mobs spells and abilities. For example, caster mobs could cast temporary debuffs that cripple a certain type of defense (PRR, MRR, a specific save, fortification), and you would have to quickly kill mobs that you are weak against.

[LightBear]

First off, the Legendary raids are not THE end game of ddo, reincarnations are.
Now that's out of my way I do agree that one hit kills are a bad thing to happen.

Secondly, I don't understand the general hate against Shiradi, it's a great destiny esp in the current game.
Anyway, back to topic, Marching Order has always been a part of wargames, ddo is no exception to this.
So we don't all need to be able to go toe-to-toe with whatever mob.
What seems to be happening in the current Legendary game is that no one can, not even when you have silly maxed out items hanging around your min-maxed body.

So what do you do then? Right, you take range as your cover and go Shiradi.
And that's not because Shiradi is that good, it's far from being good but it's the one destiny that appeals to cover both magic, ranged and thrown.
None of the other destinies do that and some of the single focus destinies came faulted out of the box.
Fatesinger and Shadow dancer being the biggest offenders here, at least Magister let's you twist some nice things out of it.

Next up, no one is going to invest in a characters dc if it doesn't work anyway, the game's combat is way to fast for things to fail.
If you hit level 30 you might stick around for a week (or two?) but then you're going to tr again.
At level cap and with all destinies filled out there isn't much to gain from running Elite.
I think most people just aim to run through the game smoothly and try to pick some nice things up along the way for a future life.

Lastly, a good speed run does not say anything about the game being to easy.
It says something about the dedication of the people that play the game in that way.
It might not be your cup of tea but it's a delight for others (Shiradi puns intended ;) ).

As far as a possible solution would be for the different classes to be able to debuff mobs and buff the party in various and more compelling ways then what we have right now.
This ofc without running into scenario's where there is only one party set up possible to complete successfully.
So that would mean some overlapping stuffs over the classes/prestiges/destinies... kinda like what we have right now.
Wait if we have that right now then what we have either isn't potent enough.
Oor we're being pigeonholed into one trick ponies.
Or what we're up against are silly immunities and hp inflation.

I'll post some more thought about how to overcome later today, I have some groceries to fetch now.

[Baktiotha]

I have said this elsewhere, there is no problem with the quests or raids the problem is with the players who are unable to adopt different approaches to the challenges presented.

When DDO first came out there was a lot of group play and success often depended on players taking up specific roles. A few players developed a lot of skill and began to run quests short handed or solo. Soon everyone began to expect that they too should be able to run quests short handed or solo. This resulted in a break down of group play with players all behaving independently and insisting that every other character be self sufficient. The result is that in the current game every player expects to be able to quest solo and to win by brute force -- it is just a race of player DPS plus self healing vs mob hit points. And, the players expect to win.

With legendary content there has not been a change in player behavior. If players are switching destinies or building to one standard it is because the answer is to just get a bigger hammer. But, legendary content is not overly difficult if players drop back into role playing. If two or three "tanks" hold the mobs in place while "off tanks" pile on cumulative damage without pulling aggression away and "nuke" and "ranged" characters add to the DPS while "crowd control" types help define the battle space and "healing" characters maintain the health of the tanking group the quests go by without major drama.

The drama comes because the players still try to win by brute force and by relying on self instead of winning as a group and relying on one another. DDO is a team sport and legendary content rewards teams that use teamwork. Teams that are made up of individual stars who are unwilling and unable to help one another should be having trouble.

The issue referred to in the original post is that players are not looking at how they can be the best team members -- they are looking at how they can be the best character. As long as that mindset continues people will think the problem is with the content, the game, the development team, the direction of DDO. It is not.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

LE is "NOT" too difficult.

However, I do not like that every monster hits for 1k-2k in a single hit.

I would like to see the average monster hit for a lot less, but keep the high damage for certain monsters.


Even with the one hit kills, groups can work together to complete most of these quests easily enough.
(but dying with so much ease is not fun IMO....)


I'd actually like to see a harder end game.
But not with one-shotting us.

Make it harder in other ways.
Creative use of spells against us is one way that comes to mind.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I have said this elsewhere, there is no problem with the quests or raids the problem is with the players who are unable to adopt different approaches to the challenges presented.

When DDO first came out there was a lot of group play and success often depended on players taking up specific roles. A few players developed a lot of skill and began to run quests short handed or solo. Soon everyone began to expect that they too should be able to run quests short handed or solo. This resulted in a break down of group play with players all behaving independently and insisting that every other character be self sufficient. The result is that in the current game every player expects to be able to quest solo and to win by brute force -- it is just a race of player DPS plus self healing vs mob hit points. And, the players expect to win.

With legendary content there has not been a change in player behavior. If players are switching destinies or building to one standard it is because the answer is to just get a bigger hammer. But, legendary content is not overly difficult if players drop back into role playing. If two or three "tanks" hold the mobs in place while "off tanks" pile on cumulative damage without pulling aggression away and "nuke" and "ranged" characters add to the DPS while "crowd control" types help define the battle space and "healing" characters maintain the health of the tanking group the quests go by without major drama.

The drama comes because the players still try to win by brute force and by relying on self instead of winning as a group and relying on one another. DDO is a team sport and legendary content rewards teams that use teamwork. Teams that are made up of individual stars who are unwilling and unable to help one another should be having trouble.

The issue referred to in the original post is that players are not looking at how they can be the best team members -- they are looking at how they can be the best character. As long as that mindset continues people will think the problem is with the content, the game, the development team, the direction of DDO. It is not.


Although I am not a fan of "roles" this is a great post!

Yes!

[Vish]

I do not run LE

I am not completionist yet.
Gotta save something for the endgame.

The reasons are pretty simple.
When trash mobs have x50 your hit points, tells you how skewed things really are.
I mean, if our dps scales to times 50 over our hit points, then something is way out of whack.

What we need is a general revision. The heroic numbers don't match legendary combat.
Now if on average we had 10000 hp, instead of 1000, then I could see hanging in LE to try it out.
But I pride myself on not dying. And getting killed by a single trash mob is too far out of my expected experience. Champions I can understand, but normal CR mobs are just way overdone.

The only balance I could see would be epic and legendary hit point boosts.
Needs to be multiplied by 10. Then tanks would have 20-30k hp, and everyone else around 10k.
This needs to be done at same time as a heal nerf.
Since the rigmarole is that if you take damage, you immediately heal.
Well, cocoon has utterly invalidated the balance.

The expectation being that as soon as you take damage, you insta heal.
Makes for solo play just fine. And zerging.
But doesn't make for balance.
Reason divines are a dead class.

So, nerf cocoon, bloat PC hit points, and get divines back into the mix.

That's where epic and legendary should go...

[Marshal_Lannes]

PS- Another issue is that availability of stuff to do at cap, but my understanding is that they are attempting to build that (and would belong to a different discussion).

I think this is the real question here. What does it matter what 3 quests are scaled to do when there are only...3 quests. No one is sticking around at L30 (believe me I want to!) to run 3 quests and from my experience the LFMs bear this out. Until more content is added any difficulty is a side issue.

[BigErkyKid]

I think this is the real question here. What does it matter what 3 quests are scaled to do when there are only...3 quests. No one is sticking around at L30 (believe me I want to!) to run 3 quests and from my experience the LFMs bear this out. Until more content is added any difficulty is a side issue.

I am not sure, this could be the blueprint for the end game they are building. I would not be very happy about that.

[legendkilleroll]

I would not be very happy about that.

Like you with the rest of the game then.

In before 30+ pages.

[Rickpa]

Legendary Tempest Spine is as it should be. Nobody I know wants to bother with the Hound, so I can't say. At last check, Legendary Shroud Normal isn't worth trying unless all melee has a particular sword from Caught In The Web, so good luck getting past the portals.

I think everything in the game should be doable on normal. There is too much that simply isn't. At least not for casual players, or even long-time regular players. Elite on the other hand should be elite.

[FranOhmsford]

I think this is the real question here. What does it matter what 3 quests are scaled to do when there are only...3 quests. No one is sticking around at L30 (believe me I want to!) to run 3 quests and from my experience the LFMs bear this out. Until more content is added any difficulty is a side issue.

When L-Shroud etc. came out I suggested that they be considered the base for Legendary and that later on the Devs would likely add even more difficult content and keep adding more difficult content until even the best players cry uncle {and I don't mean in the first week after that content is released either! End-Game content on LE to be what it says it is should not be completeable in the first week full stop! Players should need to learn it on LH or even LN first}.

But:
At the rate Turbine brings out quests it's going to take years to get an actual End-Game and we've already gone years without any End-Game!

It's time to accept that there'll never be an End-Game in DDO to suit the top players - DDO just isn't designed around that anymore, it's designed around the constant grind of TRing/ERing.

For the Devs to give us an End-Game that would suit the players who want a "real challenge" would require a major change of direction amongst the Dev team in how they build the Quests.
A Change in direction back to the idea that was in quests such as Xorian Cypher and Tomb of the Burning Heart that quests actually have requirements for completion other than pure DPS.

Take Wiz King - I've complained bitterly over the years about the player base's decision to make this a speed quest where you have to be able to solo a tower to even join in the first place {it's not so bad on EN or EH but newbies trying to run Heroic = Aaaaargh - Take 45 mins to an hour+ to solo Heroic Hard because you're not good enough to be allowed in an Elite Group!}.
Elite Players are quite happy for other players to force them to run a quest a certain way.
BUT
Every time I ask for the Devs to make End-Game Quests that force parties to split up I get yelled at by those same players who tell me that's the only way to run Wiz King!
And Wiz King DOESN'T force you to split up - The Players do!


I don't like Puzzles personally - At least not the ones Turbine seems to like.
I'm not a fan of having to buy 2 gold seal hirelings + a standard hireling to complete Tomb of the Burning Heart because otherwise I'm waiting an hour for a group and don't dare enter any of the other 3 flagging quests because when I do get to Burning Heart and still haven't had anyone join I'm stuck with paying out for TP or not running BurningHeart and Bloody Crypt!
BUT:
These are the sort of systems we need in an End-Game - Systems that bring Groups together, that FORCE players to Group because Soloing is literally impossible!

Obviously there needs to be checks and balances - We don't want End-Game Raids that require 12 different builds and only those 12 builds! We don't want players refused entry to End-Game Groups because they're the wrong build! AND we don't want Players with End-Game Clerics, Wizards, Rogues or Tanks to be guilt tripped into bringing that character so they can't build up their other characters maybe even their MAIN because that Cleric, Wiz, Rogue or Tank is actually an Alt!

End-Game Quests {Legendary Elite} should require at least 2 Players minimum! {Preferably at least 3 unless those 2 players are the perfect builds}.
End-Game Raids {Legendary Hard AND Elite} should require at least 6 Players minimum! {No matter what the builds of those 6 players}.


Legendary Quests should be longer than standard quests - Legendary Quests that are completable in 5 minutes are absolutely NOT Legendary!
Chains of Flame takes 20 minutes in a good group - pretty much the same amount of time as a soloer can do it in, maybe saving 1-2 minutes.
Coal Chamber, Crucible, Madstone - These were Legendary Quests for good reasons - They were difficult AND They were Long!

And even those aren't long enough for an actual End-Game Quest - The Devs should look at a minimum of 30 minutes for the best player with the best build and best gear to complete a Legendary Elite Quest Solo IF Soloing was possible at all!
In fact the Devs should be looking at a requirement of bare minimum 2 players {preferably 3 or more} AND 30 minutes worth of quest for Legendary Elite Quests!

And those quests should be difficult enough on LE to mean actually completing with less than a full Group is an achievement - Even the very best players should want a Full Group if at all possible. {Of course you've then got the problem of players having to hit certain DPS/CC/Self Defense targets to be accepted into Groups BUT THIS IS END-GAME There should be targets to hit before you can run it!}.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Running against the grain on this thread ---

Turbine's larger task, than simply building level 30+ content or making it harder/easier/cuter is the following:

- Turbine needs to re-factor XP for all Adventures and Raids, to appropriately give them XP at the Normal, Hard, and Elite levels of difficulty that most appropriately factor "Risk + Time" as a ratio of their granted XP.

We're overdue for this overhaul. While some quests are harder than others, the rewards should scale appropriately.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It saddens me that several comments in this thread, show me that a rather large number of players, still seem to prefer, "no risk" and extremely quick killing of anything in a dungeon before an end boss fight...

Seriously, the (I don't even have an appropriate adjective for the large amount of) DPS most players do these days.....yet still, I see people claiming monsters have too many HP!?

I recently watched a Warlock purposely round up as many EE monsters as he could and hit is aura burst a single time, and every one of them died!

I've seen other classes do almost as good.

IMO, monster HP are right where they should be.
Yes, they are high for those of us with lower (more reasonable) DPS numbers; but still easily doable when a party works together....
Yet... in reality, the party does not need to worl together, because those super DPS numbers are becoming more and more the norm instead of the exception.

(I admit some difference between servers.....I usually play on Thelanis, but recently did some time on Argo....there was a significant difference in average PUG power between the servers......)

Shroud portal DR/HP?!
Does no one remember how long it was supposed to take...back when the first was shroud was new?
It was supposed to take long, suppose to reward DR breakers.
Having to dedicate team mates to take out a few portal keepers.....
Having to have mass heals....

These things are what a raid is supposed to have.

Not this "Charge!" "1 second per portal" **** most of you are used to.

The most difficult setting in the game.....
should be designed for lvl 30's with past lives.... and min lvl 30 gear.
AND!
Those lvl 30s "should" have to work together.
should have to use tactics.
CC
healing
Run in fear of there lives!
The occasional death.....
etc.

Now, I have always been against exclusionary LFMs... and against required roles....
against "needing" past lives, or XXXX many HP... link portal/boss beaters...etc.

But... end game raids should be tough IMO.

[FranOhmsford]

(I admit some difference between servers.....I usually play on Thelanis, but recently did some time on Argo....there was a significant difference in average PUG power between the servers......)

Argo has recently had the default - Just before Orien got it again.
Thelanis hasn't had the default in 4 years!
There'll be a much higher number of newer players on Argo right now than on Thelanis.


Plus: If Thelanis is your main server chances are you've long separated yourself from the true weaker players without knowing it {subconsciously yourself or literally they avoid groups that you wouldn't avoid.
Whereas on Argo you don't them and they don't you, You haven't found likeminded players there yet who more often than not you'll find yourself running with even when outright pugging.

[jalont]

It saddens me that several comments in this thread, show me that a rather large number of players, still seem to prefer, "no risk" and extremely quick killing of anything in a dungeon before an end boss fight...

Seriously, the (I don't even have an appropriate adjective for the large amount of) DPS most players do these days.....yet still, I see people claiming monsters have too many HP!?

I recently watched a Warlock purposely round up as many EE monsters as he could and hit is aura burst a single time, and every one of them died!

I've seen other classes do almost as good.

IMO, monster HP are right where they should be.
Yes, they are high for those of us with lower (more reasonable) DPS numbers; but still easily doable when a party works together....
Yet... in reality, the party does not need to worl together, because those super DPS numbers are becoming more and more the norm instead of the exception.

(I admit some difference between servers.....I usually play on Thelanis, but recently did some time on Argo....there was a significant difference in average PUG power between the servers......)

Shroud portal DR/HP?!
Does no one remember how long it was supposed to take...back when the first was shroud was new?
It was supposed to take long, suppose to reward DR breakers.
Having to dedicate team mates to take out a few portal keepers.....
Having to have mass heals....

These things are what a raid is supposed to have.

Not this "Charge!" "1 second per portal" **** most of you are used to.

The most difficult setting in the game.....
should be designed for lvl 30's with past lives.... and min lvl 30 gear.
AND!
Those lvl 30s "should" have to work together.
should have to use tactics.
CC
healing
Run in fear of there lives!
The occasional death.....
etc.

Now, I have always been against exclusionary LFMs... and against required roles....
against "needing" past lives, or XXXX many HP... link portal/boss beaters...etc.

But... end game raids should be tough IMO.

To take this further, when quests aren't guarded by difficulty, you get silly things like: My entire guild on Sarlona had all of their eGS done 24 hours after the raid was released. You can say, sure, the raid was bugged then allowing you to bypass most of it, but, honestly, isn't this the balance most people want to see anyway?

We're seeing why "endgame" cannot work in DDO. Make it too easy, and the raids become obsolete within a month. Make it too "hard" and no one ever runs it, wasting all of the development time.

[levy1964]

I have said this elsewhere, there is no problem with the quests or raids the problem is with the players who are unable to adopt different approaches to the challenges presented.

When DDO first came out there was a lot of group play and success often depended on players taking up specific roles. A few players developed a lot of skill and began to run quests short handed or solo. Soon everyone began to expect that they too should be able to run quests short handed or solo. This resulted in a break down of group play with players all behaving independently and insisting that every other character be self sufficient. The result is that in the current game every player expects to be able to quest solo and to win by brute force -- it is just a race of player DPS plus self healing vs mob hit points. And, the players expect to win.

With legendary content there has not been a change in player behavior. If players are switching destinies or building to one standard it is because the answer is to just get a bigger hammer. But, legendary content is not overly difficult if players drop back into role playing. If two or three "tanks" hold the mobs in place while "off tanks" pile on cumulative damage without pulling aggression away and "nuke" and "ranged" characters add to the DPS while "crowd control" types help define the battle space and "healing" characters maintain the health of the tanking group the quests go by without major drama.

The drama comes because the players still try to win by brute force and by relying on self instead of winning as a group and relying on one another. DDO is a team sport and legendary content rewards teams that use teamwork. Teams that are made up of individual stars who are unwilling and unable to help one another should be having trouble.

The issue referred to in the original post is that players are not looking at how they can be the best team members -- they are looking at how they can be the best character. As long as that mindset continues people will think the problem is with the content, the game, the development team, the direction of DDO. It is not.

n1

I agree with every opinion which have u written here in 100%

[slarden]

I know that nowadays you can succeed with DCs in shroud. I just posted a video of it. But on release it was a lot harder, and hence the return of shiradi. Note that I say that DC Based CC is commonly used.


You can take whatever turbine throws at you. That's actually the only option we have, besides not playing. I just like to give my 2 cents.

My take is that when lshroud came out the enemy saves were slightly lower than they are now. There were always some high-fort save enemies but I think at some point Turbine increased fort saves in there.

Didn't you say you uninstalled the game? You have alot of opinions for someone not playing the game.

[Blastyswa]

Hi forumites,



When the Legendary Raids came out, there was a lot of controversy over whether Legendary Elite was "too much" in some senses. Mob saves are quite hight (particularly fortitude) and their damage is so high that most characters can not stand two hits in a row without healing. Even more, certain mobs, like Sorjek, are 1 shooting non tanky characters.

The general complain is that it favored cheesy approaches instead of providing challenge. For example, instead of needed a maxxed out wizard to be able to overcome spell resistance and saves, moving to shiradi. Or instead of doing melee, using a mechanic or some other good DPS ranged character.

Another issue that was brought up is that the level of damage the mobs put out is so high that it breaks the traditional "marginal differences" approach DDO has. Typically, well built toons must make some choices between defense and offense that result in marginal differences. For example, slotting a quality+insight PRR item, or rather using that for a DPS / utility slot. However, in the current end game, those differences are no longer that relevant. In many scenarios marginal differences do not make or break survivability, since the damage is so high that survivability becomes a step function.

While there was some initial outrage, most people have moved on one way or another and now LE raids are run frequently in organized groups (and good PUGs). To be clear, most random groups cannot complete LE (or even LH sometimes), but strong guilds and groups of players are completing LE just fine. For an example, see this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhr82kRqisc) of a LE shroud (probably the top difficulty in the game) finished in around 30 minutes. Typically the strategy followed involves some good DC, kiting of certain bosses, and generally accepting that you are going to die now and then.

So this is my question: is the level of challenge currently offered by the game acceptable? Is it well designed, that is, designed in a way that is fun to play and uses the abilities of the different toons to its best? Is it hard enough, at top difficulties, to be a noteworthy achievement?

My personal opinion is that it is not. While we still see groups failing (for instance I led to failed LH hounds recently), good guilds / groups regularly complete the content in what can be considered "speed runs". If it can be speed run, it is not a true challenge in my book. I understand that some people might think it is at a good spot: reachable for excellent groups, still not there for strong groups, and impossible for average. That's fine, I just don't share that view. For example, IMHO no spell or ability should be 95% in end game.

Thoughts?

PS- Another issue is that availability of stuff to do at cap, but my understanding is that they are attempting to build that (and would belong to a different discussion).

Personally I don't have an issue with higher damage from enemies and higher saves. With all the improvements to DC's that have come out over the past year or so (+6 necro DC from scion of shadowfell, high ability score boosting items, etc.) DCs less than what they are now would trivialize gameplay too much; 95% DC success with no debuffing on all content personally sounds pretty boring. (which is about what you said in your last paragraph)

The higher damage from enemies does take some getting used to; most builds, at least among the level 30 one's I see on Cannith, range from around 1000-1500 HP depending on emphasis towards health. Builds like fighters, paladins, or warlocks, with the +20% HP enhancements, and builds with the ender set are typically more around 2000, and certain builds that are a combination of both and typically play in Sentinel are around the 3000 mark. Builds that play with less HP and less PRR (I personally set my goal at a minimum of 200 every life, 100 doesn't cut it without high HP and good twitch reflexes) take more deaths, which is too be expected. Most of the time when people are taking many deaths in my groups and complaining of 1-shotting, they fall into the group of around 1000-1500 HP (or even less than that) and when asked report a PRR of well under 150. I personally run with some of the guys from the video you linked for some LE shroud raids, and can successfully complete LE shroud runs while staying on the frontlines and with rather poor twitch skills by using a build with more focus on defense. Players that attempt to play more offense oriented builds in LE raids without good twitch reflexes and/or gear investment should certainly expect to take deaths somewhat frequently.

I wouldn't mind upcoming content being harder, but I personally hope this isn't simply achieved by raising incoming damage without additional damage mitigation options. I don't see too many pugged LE raid's succeeding (Although granted most of the raiding guilds on cannith have static groups, so the PUGs sometimes leave something to be desired) but I can only speak for my experience on Cannith. I would prefer if difficulty were increased for it to be through additional effects that require a player to be attentive rather than simply fast, because much more incoming damage will make it fairly difficult for people without particularly insane reaction times to successfully play in difficult content.

[Chai]

There will always bee speed runs by guilds of people who have played together long enough on well geared characters. Im fine with this. This has been the case for the entirety of thise game's existence.

This game reached the point where it could no longer increase "challenge" by inflating HP and stats a year or two ago. The game is fine as it is unless they figure out a better way to challenge players rather than simply turning the stats up to 11.

[BoBoDaClown]

I would like the difficulty, particularly of raids lifted. I think LE should be exceedingly difficult. I would be happy with it being out of my reach and playing LH raids instead (assuming their difficult had raised somewhat).

To do this I would like a lot of class/ability nerfing (in a perfect world), but realise that is unpopular and probably financial untenable considering a lot of the group+difficult type players have left - although there are still plenty around.

I am happy with one-shot mechanics, although I would prefer that there were 'tells' before them or other way to mitigate. i.e. you get killed due to crossfire, lack of awareness etc.


I would like them to think of devious encounters.

A couple of 'difficult' encounters that I like:

- that center area with all those platforms and the Yuanti Casters in epic Garl's. People die in their all the time, despite the power creep since the quest came out.

-MoD had plenty of deaths/wipes even on normal when it first came out. I wish it was the end-fight of a raid, rather than being the entire raid, but it is a fun end-fight.

[Spookyaction]

I am happy with one-shot mechanics, although I would prefer that there were 'tells' before them or other way to mitigate. i.e. you get killed due to crossfire, lack of awareness etc.


Very good idea, this mechanic is already used in DDO, for example the Death Knights in MoD or LoB stun and smash attack. These types of attacks make players focus on whats happening in game much more and requires a higher level of skill compared to just holding down mouse button and spamming abilities.

[Vanhooger]

LE raids are a joke for organized guild and good players. Please increase difficulty.
They wouldn't be as easy if ranged damage wasn't so high.
A quick fix to increase challenge would be add a timer on death like FOT.
As it is now who care if I die..2 sec after I got the rez.

Also put some loot on HOX and TS to make them worth running.

[Aurora1979]

I started playing in '07. Rolled up a bard in '10. Left the Game in '13. Returned 6 Weeks ago. The bard is on his 3rd life with 2x bard PL's having previously always been a 2HF warchanter.

I've asked on these forums and had some good advice . I had some good loot (rom "back in the day" and have added some current good loot to it as well. Not great loot, I'm still a long way from TF and Shadowscale. I'm in a large guild with full buffs.

The Character was at L18 when I returned. I got him to cap last week and ETR. I got him to cap again last night.

Going through the epics the last couple of weeks I have been doing them on EN at first and for speed runs and EH (when I improved my items/ ED's etc) for first time bonuses or if I was looking for specific loot.

Couple of days ago I was starting a GH Saga, opened it up to the guild and the boss joined so we pugged the last 3 spots and ran the whole thing on EE. Couple of deaths, beat downs were noticeably longer than on EH but not too bad.

Yesterday a guildy and I decided we would crush some XP. I needed 1.2 mil to cap they were L24 and looking to TR asap as they had character flaws to correct.

The two of us decided to go into everything on EE, ran a variety of quest and no major dramas.... well, I had a pretty funny DD escape a situation moment that kind of backfired :)

So from what I have seen so far, and I apologise I know you guys have been talking about LE but this is as high as I have been, EE has not been that difficult really. Noticably different from EH but not astronomical.

BUT. I think its about right. I've played for years, solo'd tor when cap was 20 (I was L17 at the time). Solo'd the old epics etc. The guy I was with was a returning player who borked a build (a pally so it can't be that bad) but definitely knows the game. Both on characters that were multi life, fairly well geared and with large guild ship buffs.

A few people that join us struggled. A cleric that joined was definitely feeling the hits more. Bigger spike damage, more crits, closeer ooooh quick heal thyself moments etc.

As I say. I haven't tried legendary but if its something that once I work my way up to it scales similar to what I have seen so far it should be ok.

LE I would except for everyone to be on their game though. That should be hard. Personally. I did well in the EE's we ran, without meaning to sound arrogant. I did die a couple of times, once genuinely not my fault. But we ran over a dozen quests. Having said that, I would expect myself to have to be better. I know I do need better equipment, to learn the current quests better and to work with tactics more often. We do it when necessary as it is, but its not often that necessary.

The old epics were fun, I loved them. But they were exclusionary.

The trouble is balancing for so many variables.

People have taken ship buffs for granted across the board. People wonder why there is always zerging in WW? We used to have to stop at the gate with the acid trap to buff and time the jump or have it disabled. Same at the cross roads. Now with ele resists and a bit of DR from ship buffs etc its a non problem.

Some people have good equipment other have mediocre stuff. Some people built spot on, some guessed at it and some followed a planner ish but tried to add their own angles on it.

Some people know the game but don't know the quest, some people know the quest but don't understand the game (mechanics).

I wouldn't envy the people trying to balance all that and the fact is you will never find a balance that will please everyone.

[goodspeed]

Personally I don't have an issue with higher damage from enemies and higher saves. With all the improvements to DC's that have come out over the past year or so (+6 necro DC from scion of shadowfell, high ability score boosting items, etc.) DCs less than what they are now would trivialize gameplay too much; 95% DC success with no debuffing on all content personally sounds pretty boring. (which is about what you said in your last paragraph)

The higher damage from enemies does take some getting used to; most builds, at least among the level 30 one's I see on Cannith, range from around 1000-1500 HP depending on emphasis towards health. Builds like fighters, paladins, or warlocks, with the +20% HP enhancements, and builds with the ender set are typically more around 2000, and certain builds that are a combination of both and typically play in Sentinel are around the 3000 mark. Builds that play with less HP and less PRR (I personally set my goal at a minimum of 200 every life, 100 doesn't cut it without high HP and good twitch reflexes) take more deaths, which is too be expected. Most of the time when people are taking many deaths in my groups and complaining of 1-shotting, they fall into the group of around 1000-1500 HP (or even less than that) and when asked report a PRR of well under 150. I personally run with some of the guys from the video you linked for some LE shroud raids, and can successfully complete LE shroud runs while staying on the frontlines and with rather poor twitch skills by using a build with more focus on defense. Players that attempt to play more offense oriented builds in LE raids without good twitch reflexes and/or gear investment should certainly expect to take deaths somewhat frequently.

I wouldn't mind upcoming content being harder, but I personally hope this isn't simply achieved by raising incoming damage without additional damage mitigation options. I don't see too many pugged LE raid's succeeding (Although granted most of the raiding guilds on cannith have static groups, so the PUGs sometimes leave something to be desired) but I can only speak for my experience on Cannith. I would prefer if difficulty were increased for it to be through additional effects that require a player to be attentive rather than simply fast, because much more incoming damage will make it fairly difficult for people without particularly insane reaction times to successfully play in difficult content.

lol sounds like pales before turb nerfed the living hell out of em back at 20 cap. Well that and the blanket deathward. But before that you just zoned it and you could afk while the pale solo'd chrono and stuff for ya heh.

[Forzah]

Some people have good equipment other have mediocre stuff. Some people built spot on, some guessed at it and some followed a planner ish but tried to add their own angles on it.

Some people know the game but don't know the quest, some people know the quest but don't understand the game (mechanics).

I wouldn't envy the people trying to balance all that and the fact is you will never find a balance that will please everyone.

Yes, that's a truly difficult job. By partially ruling out these variables they can make the job a bit easier. They can reduce the effect of mechanics knowledge by improving the AI and the effect of quest knowledge by randomizing dungeons.

[BoBoDaClown]

A quick fix to increase challenge would be add a timer on death like FOT.


Good idea.

[levy1964]

LE raids are a joke for organized guild and good players. Please increase difficulty.
They wouldn't be as easy if ranged damage wasn't so high.
A quick fix to increase challenge would be add a timer on death like FOT.
As it is now who care if I die..2 sec after I got the rez.

Also put some loot on HOX and TS to make them worth running.

Vang, if we incrase yet diff, than where be a melee character ?, atm every melee class have a super hard chellange to be viable on LE raid, but if LE raid are joke for ranged character, pls let's roll a melee one and say this ''joke'' again.

is some1 like ''joke'' he can roll pewpew/warlock
is some1 like chellenge let's roll melee

is funny where i step to LE shroud and see....ohh gosh! i'am only one melee in party ;]

ps. yep is good idea add a timer on death like FOT and mayby remove a coocon yet, so ranger whos take a hit be must drink silver pots whos slowdown hes speed run -50% and thats reduce the kite ability

[Vanhooger]

Vang, if we incrase yet diff, than where be a melee character ?, atm every melee class have a super hard chellange to be viable on LE raid, but if LE raid are joke for ranged character, pls let's roll a melee one and say this ''joke'' again.

is some1 like ''joke'' he can roll pewpew/warlock
is some1 like chellenge let's roll melee

is funny where i step to LE shroud and see....ohh gosh! i'am only one melee in party ;]

ps. yep is good idea add a timer on death like FOT

I did run LE shroud 2 times per week on my dps fighter with 3-4 death usually witch is good on a melee. It's not impossible to paly a melee on LE. Sometimes got 2nd place kill after our PM. I know that kill count doesn't matter but just saying at least I wasn't hiding :)

People need to step off max dps and get some defense/cc
Problem is we are used to stomp everything we see and we want to do the same on LE raid but doesn't work that way :)

[Spookyaction]

The trouble is balancing for so many variables.

You are right, with all the past lives possible there can be quite a big difference in damage and survivability on exact same builds but isn't that why there are difficulty options(N/H/E)?

This brings up your point about old epics being exclusionary though. I remember when I first tried out epics, I already had about half a dozen PL but zero epic gear and I felt so gimped and useless in epic content compared to how the rest of the group were preforming.

In TERA online your character gets a gear score depending on the level of the gear you are using and IIRC characters with a lower gear score receive a buff to bring their gear score up to a set gear score for the content being played. It's not as powerful as a max gear score but means you are not excluded from running the content. DDO could use something like that which could also take in to consideration PL feats as well as gear, then buff players with a lower gear and PL score so they would not be excluded from running higher difficulties.

[Aurora1979]

Yes, that's a truly difficult job. By partially ruling out these variables they can make the job a bit easier. They can reduce the effect of mechanics knowledge by improving the AI and the effect of quest knowledge by randomizing dungeons.

I agree 100% The AI could definitely be improved and that would make things way harder. The randomised dungeons I'm not so sure about. Maybe randomizing the mobs locations, distribution amounts an stuff. It is silly that I can stand there swinging and hit that Arcane skelly 4-5 times before he comes out of the ground. Then, he will hop back a space so I can preempt that and get another 2-3 hits in before he gets a turn. but.... I don't want to get lost every time I get into a quest :) So, I wouldn't want quests to change the lay out of the actual map, except in some quests where that's part of the point.

[levy1964]

I did run LE shroud 2 times per week on my dps fighter with 3-4 death usually witch is good on a melee. It's not impossible to paly a melee on LE. Sometimes got 2nd place kill after our PM. I know that kill count doesn't matter but just saying at least I wasn't hiding :)

People need to step off max dps and get some defense/cc

i not say impossible, u know me, i say is still a chellenge

[BoBoDaClown]

but if LE raid are joke for ranged character, pls

I also like the idea of making the mobs faster than the characters - someone brought it up in one of these threads. So the mobs can catch up to the kiters. I don't think ranged is necessarily the issue, but the kiting is.

[Aurora1979]

Vang, if we incrase yet diff, than where be a melee character ?, atm every melee class have a super hard chellange to be viable on LE raid, but if LE raid are joke for ranged character, pls let's roll a melee one and say this ''joke'' again.



Could they put more archers in the quest and code them, and casters to be more inclined to attack ranged players? then scale that damage up by a shed ton.

That way, the ranged people have to comfort of being able to do high end dps while being out of attack range of a lot of damage BUT if they pull too much agro then are in big trouble.

It seems like the cannons are not glass enough. The gain/ sacrifice is out of balance.


EDIT:

"I also like the idea of making the mobs faster than the characters - someone brought it up in one of these threads. So the mobs can catch up to the kiters. I don't think ranged is necessarily the issue, but the kiting is."- Bobodaclown

I like this idea too.

[Aurora1979]

In TERA online your character gets a gear score depending on the level of the gear you are using and IIRC characters with a lower gear score receive a buff to bring their gear score up to a set gear score for the content being played. It's not as powerful as a max gear score but means you are not excluded from running the content. DDO could use something like that which could also take in to consideration PL feats as well as gear, then buff players with a lower gear and PL score so they would not be excluded from running higher difficulties.

I'm a self confessed technoob so I have no idea if this could work here, nor am I able to consider any downsides. But that sounds good to me. In theory it could help pugging as well. A lot of people don't like feeling useless/ fear joining groups incase they "fail" etc

[Vanhooger]

i not say impossible, u know me, i say is still a chellenge

We like challenge I suppose :)

That's why I never stepped in shroud as a ranged dps. Melee or squishy caster to have fun!

[BigErkyKid]

I also like the idea of making the mobs faster than the characters - someone brought it up in one of these threads. So the mobs can catch up to the kiters. I don't think ranged is necessarily the issue, but the kiting is.

I am currently playing a ranger and I toyed a bit with DWS focus and using equally bow and picks (in case anyone cares, it is just meh). I have to say that when mobs have regular speed you can just circle kite them all day long. But when a mob is faster (or like Malicia has unevadable damage) part of the challenge comes back. I know most people play monkchers (or rogues, or anything with run speed) so the running speed is not so much of an issue, but I am just bringing this up to agree with the comment.

I know that nowadays you can play in LE raids in melee. I have seen it and done it. But the mechanics are kind of borked. And ultimately I don't feel it is more fun to play LE raids on an optimized toon than to play LH on a more flavor oriented one. For example, mobs in LH hound were hitting me for 300-400 damage in a flavor life (PRR between 130-150). Damage that would kill you in 3-4 hits, is, IMHO, better than 1-2 shots.

[Vanhooger]

I am currently playing a ranger and I toyed a bit with DWS focus and using equally bow and picks (in case anyone cares, it is just meh). I have to say that when mobs have regular speed you can just circle kite them all day long. But when a mob is faster (or like Malicia has unevadable damage) part of the challenge comes back. I know most people play monkchers (or rogues, or anything with run speed) so the running speed is not so much of an issue, but I am just bringing this up to agree with the comment.

I know that nowadays you can play in LE raids in melee. I have seen it and done it. But the mechanics are kind of borked. And ultimately I don't feel it is more fun to play LE raids on an optimized toon than to play LH on a more flavor oriented one. For example, mobs in LH hound were hitting me for 300-400 damage in a flavor life (PRR between 130-150). Damage that would kill you in 3-4 hits, is, IMHO, better than 1-2 shots.

I don't like the 1-2 shot mechanic but that was the best the dev could came up to add difficulty for now, and unfortunately I don't see this is going to change :(
I have written many post on how to add challenge in different ways but I got flamed every time so I don't care much anymore.

[Forzah]

I am currently playing a ranger and I toyed a bit with DWS focus and using equally bow and picks (in case anyone cares, it is just meh). I have to say that when mobs have regular speed you can just circle kite them all day long. But when a mob is faster (or like Malicia has unevadable damage) part of the challenge comes back. I know most people play monkchers (or rogues, or anything with run speed) so the running speed is not so much of an issue, but I am just bringing this up to agree with the comment.

I know that nowadays you can play in LE raids in melee. I have seen it and done it. But the mechanics are kind of borked. And ultimately I don't feel it is more fun to play LE raids on an optimized toon than to play LH on a more flavor oriented one. For example, mobs in LH hound were hitting me for 300-400 damage in a flavor life (PRR between 130-150). Damage that would kill you in 3-4 hits, is, IMHO, better than 1-2 shots.

Rather than giving them an overall bump in speed, it maybe is even more fun/original to give mobs sprint boost as an ability. Fencing off several mobs sprinting at you will be quite challenging. Or maybe mix regular mobs with some very quick enemies such as dogs, wolfs, and monks.

[Vanhooger]

Rather than giving them an overall bump in speed, it maybe is even more fun/original to give mobs sprint boost as an ability. Fencing off several mobs sprinting at you will be quite challenging. Or maybe mix regular mobs with some very quick enemies such as dogs, wolfs, and monks.
Mob caster that quicken his ally or a bard empowering them with songs would make sense.

[Forzah]

Mob caster that quicken his ally or a bard empowering them with songs would make sense.

Yea. Good idea. Maybe mobs can already cast spells before you engage in a fight, rather than after (just like players do). Otherwise the threat can be neutralized immediately with an instant kill spell.

[BigErkyKid]

Rather than giving them an overall bump in speed, it maybe is even more fun/original to give mobs sprint boost as an ability. Fencing off several mobs sprinting at you will be quite challenging. Or maybe mix regular mobs with some very quick enemies such as dogs, wolfs, and monks.

While I agree this would be cool, I think it is unlikely they implement a whole new mechanic. A simple bump to speed would be easier (me thinks) and still serve the purpose, IMHO.

[BigErkyKid]

Mob caster that quicken his ally or a bard empowering them with songs would make sense.

I don't think that would be impossible, right? For the most part casters are pretty lame. But they do have debuffs and stuff they could do. So instead of protection against elements, they could cast fom and DW more systematically (some already do). Then as you say bards could buff enemy mobs. And so on.

IMHO more of the mob damage should come from this than from its base damage. Stuff that we can work to diminish as opposed to being a given.

[Blastyswa]

I don't like the 1-2 shot mechanic but that was the best the dev could came up to add difficulty for now, and unfortunately I don't see this is going to change :(
I have written many post on how to add challenge in different ways but I got flamed every time so I don't care much anymore.

One mechanic I've loved the idea of for a while is an endboss inflicting a non-removable curse that kills the player it hits 20 seconds after first being attacked. This would mean that if there is several tanky characters in a raid, one can hold aggro on the boss for 20 seconds before dying, at which point another one takes over, and then the initial one takes over after a rez when the second guy bites the dust. This would encourage the ranged/caster characters to put more emphasis on threat management, especially if the boss had a ranged version of this cursed attack so that simply kiting without getting hit wasn't an option. I think the developers still have plenty of routes with relatively little complicated coding required to go down to improve difficulty, it just takes some creativity to think of them.

[jalont]

There will always bee speed runs by guilds of people who have played together long enough on well geared characters. Im fine with this. This has been the case for the entirety of thise game's existence.

This game reached the point where it could no longer increase "challenge" by inflating HP and stats a year or two ago. The game is fine as it is unless they figure out a better way to challenge players rather than simply turning the stats up to 11.

You can't really brush this away. With how few people are in the game to begin with and with how few people are actually interested in any sort of "endgame", you can't have all those people falling out or the raids don't get ran.

[Tlorrd]

LE Raid runs that are organized and speedy, usually are with people who play a certain role. Range DPS, Melees, Warlocks, and Wiz DC caster ... occasionally there is a healer/cc/dps divine, but that is rare (and most people don't know how to build that or a variant of 2 out of 3). If you watch most of the necro/enchant wiz in LE shroud, they basically mass hold/otto's dance (with whatever debuffs they need, as will saves are weak for most of those stunnable mobs) and then they wait for the legendary or epic saves that mobs have (based on their HP level) to wear down and then instakill. They are then fairly useless for all the red names except for an occasional ruin/greater ruin or cloudkill. But they have a role in that once mobs have 50% health, they can instakill and melee or ranged dps can move on to the next target.

In the current game, healers are not really needed due to everyone having some type of self-healing. Those groups that regularly fail LE or LH usually have gamers that don't know how to group and roleplay as they are used to soloing content and think they can do it all.

Now if the healer type is really desired back in the game (which most players on these forums seem not to want), they can do a few things that may make that possible (but again a lot of sentiment is that people do not wish to go back to the old days of waiting on a healer or having an abusive relationship with a healer (or vice versa).
- Can institute a death count where a certain # = raid failure (maybe 5 or 10 for LE)
- Secondly, the one shot mechanic would need to go away ... it would need to be a 2-3 shot mechanic thus allowing some type of healing to take place to avoid death
- C. I don't think any of this would happen (and I'm not saying that I want it to happen, I'm just throwing out some ideas)

[Wizza]

I am currently playing a ranger and I toyed a bit with DWS focus and using equally bow and picks (in case anyone cares, it is just meh). I have to say that when mobs have regular speed you can just circle kite them all day long. But when a mob is faster (or like Malicia has unevadable damage) part of the challenge comes back. I know most people play monkchers (or rogues, or anything with run speed) so the running speed is not so much of an issue, but I am just bringing this up to agree with the comment.

I know that nowadays you can play in LE raids in melee. I have seen it and done it. But the mechanics are kind of borked. And ultimately I don't feel it is more fun to play LE raids on an optimized toon than to play LH on a more flavor oriented one. For example, mobs in LH hound were hitting me for 300-400 damage in a flavor life (PRR between 130-150). Damage that would kill you in 3-4 hits, is, IMHO, better than 1-2 shots.

Looks like you have a nice build. Can I see it in action? I'm currently looking for a build to TR to :)

I'd like to know how many monkchers you saw on argo. I can name only 4, while I can name you over a dozen..of millions of melees and warlocks.

[Gannicus]

Honestly, I think the difficulty is fine, if you go back to the way a raid group formed before epic levels were a thing. You had your tank(s) that grabbed agro then you had 2 raid healers; one of which just focues on the tank(s) while the other healed the party. A CC'er wasn't required but was definitely nice and then you had your support DPS. You go into a LE raid with a party like that and it isn't a big deal.

And the people complaining that linking boss beaters and "elitist ****" is ruining it. Asking for some1 to link a BB is not elitist, the party leader just wants to make sure you have something other than "Club of the Holy Flame" from delera's chain to break DR. And I am fine with that I think they should keep going with more LE raids in the future.

[Baktiotha]

Honestly, I think the difficulty is fine, if you go back to the way a raid group formed before epic levels were a thing. You had your tank(s) that grabbed agro then you had 2 raid healers; one of which just focues on the tank(s) while the other healed the party. A CC'er wasn't required but was definitely nice and then you had your support DPS. You go into a LE raid with a party like that and it isn't a big deal.

And the people complaining that linking boss beaters and "elitist ****" is ruining it. Asking for some1 to link a BB is not elitist, the party leader just wants to make sure you have something other than "Club of the Holy Flame" from delera's chain to break DR. And I am fine with that I think they should keep going with more LE raids in the future.

I agree with the first paragraph and disagree with most of the second.

In the past linking of boss beaters discouraged players from participating and gave the impression of elitism -- whether that was the intent or not. I can make arguments about LE not being for everyone but the issue is this: how does a character obtain the boss beater when all of the LFMs are for the quests that need them and none of the LFMs are for the quests where you can get them?

[Gannicus]

I agree with the first paragraph and disagree with most of the second.

In the past linking of boss beaters discouraged players from participating and gave the impression of elitism -- whether that was the intent or not. I can make arguments about LE not being for everyone but the issue is this: how does a character obtain the boss beater when all of the LFMs are for the quests that need them and none of the LFMs are for the quests where you can get them?

If you need something and there are no LFM's up for it, you could post your own. Just because there is no LFM up doesn't mean you can't run it. And it is only in the end game raid that they are asking for boss beaters. Saying, "I should be able to show up with my http://m.ddowiki.com/page/Item:Club_of_the_Holy_Flame and be happily accepted into the LE shroud" is just as ridiculous as saying I should be able to run ToD without my boots of anchoring. It just doesn't work that way. It's not like people are asking for crafted +5 holy burst silver khopesh of greater evil outsider bane weapons. Just a silver weapon and in Divine Crusader destiny with a good aligned character is fine.

[Brac]

First off, the Legendary raids are not THE end game of ddo, reincarnations are.
Now that's out of my way I do agree that one hit kills are a bad thing to happen.


These are the type of stupid comments that cause people to post threads titled "Can we define endgame"

Reincarnation is the hamster wheel Turbine put you on while they tried to figure out how to build an end game. Even they have admitted several times they are trying to figure out the end game content. But, you know, who needs facts. If you repeat something enough times it just becomes true, right? I think I saw you on TV recently, you were the guy with the misspelled sign at the Trump rally that said "Keep Govment out of my Medicare!"

[Qhualor]

Reincarnation is the hamster wheel Turbine put you on while they tried to figure out how to build an end game. Even they have admitted several times they are trying to figure out the end game content. But, you know, who needs facts.

this is true.

[slarden]

Can you provide some citation for this? I never saw anything like this from the devs,but of course I didn't start until ftp. Truth is a huge percentage of players think reincarnation is part of end game so calling the comment stupid makes you look a bit nasty. I tend to agree whether intended or not - TR was a great move by Turbine as another thing to do when you've done it all.


These are the type of stupid comments that cause people to post threads titled "Can we define endgame"

Reincarnation is the hamster wheel Turbine put you on while they tried to figure out how to build an end game. Even they have admitted several times they are trying to figure out the end game content. But, you know, who needs facts. If you repeat something enough times it just becomes true, right? I think I saw you on TV recently, you were the guy with the misspelled sign at the Trump rally that said "Keep Govment out of my Medicare!"

[Chai]

You can't really brush this away. With how few people are in the game to begin with and with how few people are actually interested in any sort of "endgame", you can't have all those people falling out or the raids don't get ran.

Most of the real endgame players left due to lack of said endgame. As such, this is the demographic they have the most potential to pull the most numbers back into the game from. Since, as you claim, people who are here don't want it, it will not affect them in the slightest if Turbine pulls some of the endgame players back into DDO by strengthening its endgame. As evidence I point to the era when endgame was strongest, 2009-2011, when the TR game didn't suffer at all, and yet the endgame in DDO was strong.

[Baktiotha]

<snip>

This is a common response but I think misses the point.

Silver plus good is common enough that it should be assumed and not need to be asked for. Posting in the comments of the LFM, "Have silver plus good on a weapon for end fight" should be sufficient. Or, easier, "Have boss beater."

Honestly, I've only run legendary Shroud on elite so I don't know what the issue is. The leaders never asked for boss beaters. I just don't see the need to ask for proof.

[Ellihor]

Oh finally this day came... I was excepting at some point people use my channel for this kind of discussion, now I wonder if I should delete that video or not. What's next, wizards are OP and need a nerf because ...look that vid?

Please don't take those videos like they were the normal. They're not (time depends a lot of part 2 coordenation and lucky set of bosses). FYI same goes for LE quests video, most of them are not first try. I post only the best runs. Most runs are 35-45 mins, some are 45-65. But I agree Shroud is not hard enough, TS same problem. Both are basically auto completions, what varies is the time. BTW if you search Youtube there are videos of 33-35 min completions with no wizard in the party.

[Wizza]

Oh finally this day came... I was excepting at some point people use my channel for this kind of discussion, now I wonder if I should delete that video or not. What's next, wizards are OP and need a nerf because ...look that vid?

No :) your video is fine. Glad to see a nice video from shroud from a Wizard and not a Warlock/Tree/Ranger

[jalont]

Most of the real endgame players left due to lack of said endgame. As such, this is the demographic they have the most potential to pull the most numbers back into the game from. Since, as you claim, people who are here don't want it, it will not affect them in the slightest if Turbine pulls some of the endgame players back into DDO by strengthening its endgame. As evidence I point to the era when endgame was strongest, 2009-2011, when the TR game didn't suffer at all, and yet the endgame in DDO was strong.

I agree there should be an endgame, but do you really think it's going to bring anyone back to the game when these players post an lfm for a raid and it never fills?

[Ellihor]

LE raids are a joke for organized guild and good players. Please increase difficulty.
They wouldn't be as easy if ranged damage wasn't so high.
A quick fix to increase challenge would be add a timer on death like FOT.
As it is now who care if I die..2 sec after I got the rez.

Also put some loot on HOX and TS to make them worth running.

Totally Agree. Death timmer would be awewsome. LE raids are auto completions if you have a stack of 100 Raise scrolls.

[Ellihor]

Vang, if we incrase yet diff, than where be a melee character ?, atm every melee class have a super hard chellange to be viable on LE raid, but if LE raid are joke for ranged character, pls let's roll a melee one and say this ''joke'' again.

is some1 like ''joke'' he can roll pewpew/warlock
is some1 like chellenge let's roll melee

is funny where i step to LE shroud and see....ohh gosh! i'am only one melee in party ;]

ps. yep is good idea add a timer on death like FOT and mayby remove a coocon yet, so ranger whos take a hit be must drink silver pots whos slowdown hes speed run -50% and thats reduce the kite ability

That would make clerics desireble again. One of my chars started out as a healbot before MotU and I had tons of fun healing raids. I'd love to do that again. BTW most monsters DO NOT one shot on first hit. The few that do, well, you know that's what tanks, healing and cc are for. At least in raid we could use some niche builds/teamwork please? That's what everyone wants.. (see all the threads about homogenization)

[slarden]

Totally Agree. Death timmer would be awewsome. LE raids are auto completions if you have a stack of 100 Raise scrolls.

they can do whatever they want for le but leave lh alone as many random people die frequently and this would hurt pugs and would result in declining casual playersm. As it is some people struggle in lh and can't find ln groups because the drop rate sucks so bad.

lh is the only chance for people to run the raids even if they are not ready.

[Ellihor]

they can do whatever they want for le but leave lh alone as many random people die frequently and this would hurt pugs and would result in declining casual playersm. As it is some people struggle in lh and can't find ln groups because the drop rate sucks so bad.

lh is the only chance for people to run the raids even if they are not ready.

Fair enough

[nokowi]

I agree there should be an endgame, but do you really think it's going to bring anyone back to the game when these players post an lfm for a raid and it never fills?

I would be playing daily if DDO had an endgame. As it stands, I am not playing and letting my VIP subscription expire.

[slarden]

I would be playing daily if DDO had an endgame. As it stands, I am not playing and letting my VIP subscription expire.
That is disappointing we can use you in the pug shrouds! I hope you are back soon.

[Chai]

I agree there should be an endgame, but do you really think it's going to bring anyone back to the game when these players post an lfm for a raid and it never fills?

Yes, because after each update there are more than 20 people I personally know who return, steamroll it within a few days and leave again. This is merely those folks I (one person) know who do this. With a more consistent end game focus, those people would likely stick around longer each time.

[Baktiotha]

Yes, because after each update there are more than 20 people I personally know who return, steamroll it within a few days and leave again. This is merely those folks I (one person) know who do this. With a more consistent end game focus, those people would likely stick around longer each time.

Question, how do you (or others) suggest Turbine go about building a questing environment for L30 characters?

Should Turbine hire more developers and turn out fully realized legendary content consisting of double or triple the current heroic plus elite plus legendary content? Would that be enough to occupy the most elite players for 2 or 3 months?

Should Turbine use the current developers to turn out the equivalent content but hold it until fully realized -- perhaps postponing any future updates by 2 years or more?

What process to you (or others) suggest to get us to the goal state? And, after getting there, what investment in resources is required to sustain that one the 2 or 3 months are over? How much more content is required and how many more development hours are needed to keep producing at a fast enough rate that players do not hit a content limited wall?

IMO it is fine to be critical of Turbine for not having a fully realized L30 campaign running. But, I also think it is a bit unrealistic to expect that of them given the realities. WB clearly sees mobile platforms as the future and Turbine seems to be getting retooled to pursue that as its primary focus. I just can't see how it is realistic to hope for or to expect any faster development than what we have now. And that means that players are going to return, if they return, for only a few days and then be gone again.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i like the current endgame. mob damage and hp high, mob size and saves low is a good combination.

trash is actually dangerous even 1v1 sometimes, trash doesnt all die instantly always, heavy armor feels like it makes you survivable without just making everything stupid easy, squishies are afraid for their lives again (thats a good thing), specific builds and roles are desirable, cc is extremely valuable, to hit is a valuable stat.

i am waiting for them to expand the amount of content.

i think a reduction or removal of player immunities, a buff to mob ai, and an increase in the number of skill based puzzles/challenges would be great improvements.

[Angelic-council]

i like the current endgame. mob damage and hp high, mob size and saves low is a good combination.

trash is actually dangerous even 1v1 sometimes, trash doesnt all die instantly always, heavy armor feels like it makes you survivable without just making everything stupid easy, squishies are afraid for their lives again (thats a good thing), specific builds and roles are desirable, cc is extremely valuable, to hit is a valuable stat.

i am waiting for them to expand the amount of content.

i think a reduction or removal of player immunities, a buff to mob ai, and an increase in the number of skill based puzzles/challenges would be great improvements.

It's very interesting. They gave us more power to deal with lower content and actual end game is insanely hard. You can still complete it if you maximized everything. Now it requires more tactics and group play. We have pretty good idea what happens when a DC caster try to zerg tempest EE for example. I really enjoy the current difficulty. Only the strongest players can complete highest difficulty. I just hope developers don't screw it all up with adding 10 extra more DC or give regular enemies 50k HP for example. They have to actually keep the balance here.

As much as I like how current end game stands. I can't deny that some builds are now screwed and people have to make tough choices. Cleric, FvS DC casters used to be good for example. Now they can't reach high enought DC (spell pen) without massive sacrifice and lowering spell power. I wonder if it's really good or bad. But I do like hard difficulties.

[Chai]

Question, how do you (or others) suggest Turbine go about building a questing environment for L30 characters?

Should Turbine hire more developers and turn out fully realized legendary content consisting of double or triple the current heroic plus elite plus legendary content? Would that be enough to occupy the most elite players for 2 or 3 months?

Should Turbine use the current developers to turn out the equivalent content but hold it until fully realized -- perhaps postponing any future updates by 2 years or more?

What process to you (or others) suggest to get us to the goal state? And, after getting there, what investment in resources is required to sustain that one the 2 or 3 months are over? How much more content is required and how many more development hours are needed to keep producing at a fast enough rate that players do not hit a content limited wall?

IMO it is fine to be critical of Turbine for not having a fully realized L30 campaign running. But, I also think it is a bit unrealistic to expect that of them given the realities. WB clearly sees mobile platforms as the future and Turbine seems to be getting retooled to pursue that as its primary focus. I just can't see how it is realistic to hope for or to expect any faster development than what we have now. And that means that players are going to return, if they return, for only a few days and then be gone again.

More endgame focus means more raids that stay relevant. They did it before and all they have to do is look at the 2008-2011 model of endgame, and focus on bringing that mentality back to DDO. Reaver was 2007, yet in 2010 there were still people running it for the napkin, madstone boots, etc. DQ was earlier than that and people still ran it for the seeker armor, torq, spell storing ring, Xuum, etc. years after the fact. TOD was 2009, yet in 2011 people still ran it because TOD rings were still BiS for many builds. eVON was 2009, and eSOS was BiS for a long time Even when it wasn't any longer it was still competitive, and could be used at level 20 when BiS stuff didn't take over for 5+ more levels - and that didn't happen til 2012. VON also had the only gear based FoM item for a long time. Red scale armor was relevant for 4 years or so. Shroud was Jan 2008, and that loot had its 3+ years in the sun. Hound and VOD were 2008, and those had some BiS gear for some builds all the way to 2012. (my melee TRs still use tharnes goggles to level 20ish).

Its not unrealistic at all. It doesn't have to be built all at once, just like all those raids I just named weren't built all at once. Just don't invalidate last update's gear with this update's gear.

P.S. those "realities" existed in 2008 as well. The year of vast and mysterious, barely any new content, ATARI lawsuit, servers just merged not too long ago, people thought the game was on its way out. And the raid loot that came out that year had 3-4 years of being good loot.

[nokowi]

That is disappointing we can use you in the pug shrouds! I hope you are back soon.

Thanks!

I have a new computer on the way, so I will have lots of new games to explore.

[nokowi]

Question, how do you (or others) suggest Turbine go about building a questing environment for L30 characters?



Since they have trouble making PVE challenging (too many broken abilities), the answer that they have the resources to tackle is PVE competition at Cap Level, in which groups that can crush content compete against each other for doing it better.

This requires metrics of success and a ranking and point system, while not requiring them to fix all the problems with balance in elite content.

You could even think of groups with the weakest classes getting more points for success, and anything else that incentivises all classes to be played.

[BigErkyKid]

Since they have trouble making PVE challenging (too many broken abilities), the answer that they have the resources to tackle is PVE competition at Cap Level, in which groups that can crush content compete against each other for doing it better.

This requires metrics of success and a ranking and point system, while not requiring them to fix all the problems with balance in elite content.

You could even think of groups with the weakest classes getting more points for success, and anything else that incentivises all classes to be played.

I suggested a turbine backed competitive league along those lines about a year ago. Cordovan was supportive of the idea (went on the ddo magazine etc) but said that turbine wouldn't give official backing to it.

The idea spawns a variety of moderately successful player based attempts at creating it. However, without turbine s stamp and some more structure most players can't be bothered with this.

Also I foresee that we would find content so utterly trivialized if people truly had an incentive to optimize. It might be a bit sad. Plus the pressure to use broken builds would be enormous.

Frankly, aside from a philosophy of low investment in the game, I have never understood why turbine has not encouraged more of this competitive aspect to the game. The lunch streams and even some of the dev interviews create, from what I can tell, extremely low interest. I remember checking the views on some of those videos and felt it was pretty pointless.

[Baktiotha]

When I look at the answers to my question I see two things.

First I see a listing of content developed over a period of years during a time when DDO had a high priority at Turbine. DDO does not have that level of priority (indicators are that developing mobile applications is the emerging priority). But, more importantly, the number of years have not passed by in which to develop and release content. Compare the complaint about not enough content to the complaints at that time. There is not really anything new. The difference is that we can look back on that period of gaming and see it in retrospect. But at the time there was not so much joy in Stormreach.

Second I see a reference to competitive leagues and rankings. That may drive players who value epeen but we already have too many of those people on the forums and in the game now. It was epeen that drove many players away from the game with the "show me your boss beater" and "you must be self sufficient" and the "preview your build to see if it is acceptable" attitudes. Elitists are a difficult group to contend with. They drive development because the developers have a hard time keeping up with the elitists. Elitists complete content faster than any other group and they find every hole and exploit in the game. So they are a positive in that sense. But elitists also demeans other players. They are arrogant and impolite, they think personal credentials are more important than cogent arguments, they discourage rather than encourage, and ultimately the drove away a huge number of players while claiming the game all for themselves. Elitists are a negative in that sense.

Competition will drive a number of elitist groups on each server and will leave everyone else with the feeling of "why even try." That does not benefit the whole community, it just further threatens to fracture the community. The elitists are better for the game when they are seen but seldom heard. Putting their accomplishments front and center is only asking for problems. There are already too many people who argue that their point of view is right because they have so much more knowledge, experience, university degrees, popular builds, years of running a particular character class, whatever. What we do not need are more people who think their opinion is better than everyone else's.

Right now the game is set up to take characters to level cap, give them momentary challenge, and then enable them to play the game again. Those who desire a real challenge can do so by choosing less than optimal builds, foregoing gear that they object to, pursuing completely different play styles, and any number of other choices -- that is key, choices -- to keep the game challenging. It takes time to develop additional content and until that content is made available players have three choices.

One, they can stop playing and wait.

Two, they can complain even though complaining does not change a single thing.

Three, they can play the game either holding at level cap and running limited content or reincarnating and running any of the existing content.

Those who stop playing do nothing to help the game by coming to the forums to complain. Those who complain do nothing to help the game since it won't push developers to develop any faster. Those that continue to game provide the finances and numbers to keep the game in production.

Personally, I'll choose to game. Others would help more if they would choose likewise.

[maddong]

They just need to take 1 update and change all of the raids to legendary only. Remove the heroic option since it is never used. Remove the shards and seals. VON just drops the ESOS straight up. Raids are now spread between the levels 31 and 33 with a mix of old twink item drops (SOS, eSOS, balizarde) and a few new legendary items for each raid. That would create an end game in the least effort.

[Ellihor]

Question, how do you (or others) suggest Turbine go about building a questing environment for L30 characters?

Should Turbine hire more developers and turn out fully realized legendary content consisting of double or triple the current heroic plus elite plus legendary content? Would that be enough to occupy the most elite players for 2 or 3 months?

Should Turbine use the current developers to turn out the equivalent content but hold it until fully realized -- perhaps postponing any future updates by 2 years or more?

What process to you (or others) suggest to get us to the goal state? And, after getting there, what investment in resources is required to sustain that one the 2 or 3 months are over? How much more content is required and how many more development hours are needed to keep producing at a fast enough rate that players do not hit a content limited wall?

All the answers to the problem this game has are just do what they were doing beefore MotU. Me and many players have been saying this for years already but somewhy they continue to go in the opposite dirrection more and more.


IMO it is fine to be critical of Turbine for not having a fully realized L30 campaign running. But, I also think it is a bit unrealistic to expect that of them given the realities. WB clearly sees mobile platforms as the future and Turbine seems to be getting retooled to pursue that as its primary focus. I just can't see how it is realistic to hope for or to expect any faster development than what we have now. And that means that players are going to return, if they return, for only a few days and then be gone again.


I have no idea how much money is needed, and no idea how much money DDO makes. But if you want money, you have to invest first... maybe for months, ony to hit the break-even. I feel Turbine doesn't want to do that, it only wants to get the last pennys it can from DDO before shutting the lights. +7 tome with 20% discount recently confirms that.

[Baktiotha]

Well, recent post indicates Turbine is planning years in advance for DDO and the "shut out the lights" complaint has been running on the forums for several years now without coming to pass. So, IMO, all the hand wringing and warnings of doom are just a bit melodramatic.

[JOTMON]

Question, how do you (or others) suggest Turbine go about building a questing environment for L30 characters?

Should Turbine hire more developers and turn out fully realized legendary content consisting of double or triple the current heroic plus elite plus legendary content? Would that be enough to occupy the most elite players for 2 or 3 months?

Should Turbine use the current developers to turn out the equivalent content but hold it until fully realized -- perhaps postponing any future updates by 2 years or more?

What process to you (or others) suggest to get us to the goal state? And, after getting there, what investment in resources is required to sustain that one the 2 or 3 months are over? How much more content is required and how many more development hours are needed to keep producing at a fast enough rate that players do not hit a content limited wall?

IMO it is fine to be critical of Turbine for not having a fully realized L30 campaign running. But, I also think it is a bit unrealistic to expect that of them given the realities. WB clearly sees mobile platforms as the future and Turbine seems to be getting retooled to pursue that as its primary focus. I just can't see how it is realistic to hope for or to expect any faster development than what we have now. And that means that players are going to return, if they return, for only a few days and then be gone again.


Chain flagging endgame content that discourages the quick and easy flag, run a couple times TR, then go again..
We need something that will encourage players to want to stick around endgame and roll up alts to run it as well..
perhaps even content with no timer bypasses..

Expand the story line and have Erandis Vol go around to all the previous house raids (except shroud) enticing the help of all the old defeated bosses as she tries to unlock her own Mark of Death.
content that requires flagging 10 Raids in Legendary difficulty to unlock access to a new end raid.. (sure its a levelled up rehash.. but rehash with a purpose..)
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/451312-Mythic-level-Raids



~snip~

Still waiting for DDO to give us endgame content to run.

give us a real flagging slugfest not a halfash flag a couple raids then TR while gaining XP, run a couple more then tr again.....
Flagging all these Eberron raids could encompass 20 quests and 10 pre-raids (on Legendary difficulty).. just to open the access to Elandris Vol Legendary chain..
~ Flag all the raids on Legendary, then run all the raids on Legendary to flag for the end raid..

Have it drop components for Legendary named items.. or even Sentient weapon components..
storyline... Erandis Vol is still tryng to revive her mark of death and experimenting with various things and colluding with other entities...

experimental items found ...craftable phylactery shards.. these shards are imbued with an unusual life force that desires to be formed into a weapon..
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/473089-Sentient-Weapons
Sentient Weapons that consume named items to unlock special effects...

a grind that would encourage players to stay in the endgame range due to long flagging mechanics and farming components..
While also giving players a reason to sacrifice their named items collected and to be recollected...

[nokowi]

I suggested a turbine backed competitive league along those lines about a year ago. Cordovan was supportive of the idea (went on the ddo magazine etc) but said that turbine wouldn't give official backing to it.

The idea spawns a variety of moderately successful player based attempts at creating it. However, without turbine s stamp and some more structure most players can't be bothered with this.

Also I foresee that we would find content so utterly trivialized if people truly had an incentive to optimize. It might be a bit sad. Plus the pressure to use broken builds would be enormous.

Frankly, aside from a philosophy of low investment in the game, I have never understood why turbine has not encouraged more of this competitive aspect to the game. The lunch streams and even some of the dev interviews create, from what I can tell, extremely low interest. I remember checking the views on some of those videos and felt it was pretty pointless.

That's why you give the suboptimal builds more points for completing the same task.

1. Receiving more points on suboptimal builds allows players to play the builds they enjoy (the current "endgame" quests make certain builds much more effective). If a group had a monk or melee rogue or bear druid (currently lower tier builds), they would receive more points for the same success (playing the FOTM will not always be optimal)


2. You change the goal posts --> Points awarded for different things for each competition (time to completion one event, least deaths another event, least kills another event, most kills another event, etc)

This allows build variety to be useful instead of demanding every class have the same level of power and abilities.

Essentially, you can take an unbalanced game (what we have now), and rank builds and change objectives so that people can have fun and be useful in many more builds. You don't need to balance the content perfectly vs player skill because level of success now matters instead of just completion.

"Endgame" would be about being the best at the build you enjoy.

[BigErkyKid]

That's why you give the suboptimal builds more points for completing the same task.

1. Receiving more points on suboptimal builds allows players to play the builds they enjoy (the current "endgame" quests make certain builds much more effective). If a group had a monk or melee rogue or bear druid (currently lower tier builds), they would receive more points for the same success (playing the FOTM will not always be optimal)


2. You change the goal posts --> Points awarded for different things for each competition (time to completion one event, least deaths another event, least kills another event, most kills another event, etc)

This allows build variety to be useful instead of demanding every class have the same level of power and abilities.

Essentially, you can take an unbalanced game (what we have now), and rank builds and change objectives so that people can have fun and be useful in many more builds. You don't need to balance the content perfectly vs player skill because level of success now matters instead of just completion.

"Endgame" would be about being the best at the build you enjoy.

The moment you need to award extra points for playing a gimp class is, IMHO, the moment you acknowledge the game is utterly broken.

I'd be OK with leagues for different levels of PLs or what not, but I'd begrudge the other stuff.

Either way I'd by up for a league like that, even though probably I wouldn't be super competitive myself.

There is a game in which the guild / group to beat a quest /raid in the least time / most points gets "ownership" of said quest. That reports IG benefits.

Frankly Id prefer a league that is integrated in the universe, lore wise, than a pure external thing.

[maddong]

Here is how I would do it (clarified):

No more heroic raids.

Level 31 raids: ascension chamber, vault of night/plane of night, chronoscope, reaver's fate, twighlight forge/titan awakes, zawabi's revenge

Level 32 raids: tempest, hound, shroud, fall of truth, lord of blades, master artificer, mark of death, tower of despair

Level 33 raids: vision of destruction, caught in the web, defiler of the just, fire on thunder peak, temple of the deathwyrm

The simple thing to do would change all raids to be between level 31 and 33. Starting at level 20 you can enter them. Each raid has new legendary items that drop from it but also drops a mix of desirable twink items from its old version (SOS, eSOS [no more seals/shards], fully upgraded balizarde [no more need for commendations of heroism], upgraded quiver of alacrity, etc].

That would instantly create an end game in the least effort. You would also bring back bored players who loved the game but felt there was nothing to do (and have drifted away since you killed end game with TR and epic levels).

Even if each raid has only a limited number of options that people want they will run them for that rare drop and create an end game....

[Forzah]

That's why you give the suboptimal builds more points for completing the same task.

1. Receiving more points on suboptimal builds allows players to play the builds they enjoy (the current "endgame" quests make certain builds much more effective). If a group had a monk or melee rogue or bear druid (currently lower tier builds), they would receive more points for the same success (playing the FOTM will not always be optimal)


2. You change the goal posts --> Points awarded for different things for each competition (time to completion one event, least deaths another event, least kills another event, most kills another event, etc)

This allows build variety to be useful instead of demanding every class have the same level of power and abilities.

Essentially, you can take an unbalanced game (what we have now), and rank builds and change objectives so that people can have fun and be useful in many more builds. You don't need to balance the content perfectly vs player skill because level of success now matters instead of just completion.

"Endgame" would be about being the best at the build you enjoy.

While in essence I like the idea, it's pretty difficult to implement. You'd have to create some sort of measure for suboptimality. I wouldn't even know where to start if I wanted to create something like that. And even if it were possible, smart people would probably exploit it again in some way.....

[nokowi]

The moment you need to award extra points for playing a gimp class is, IMHO, the moment you acknowledge the game is utterly broken.


It is. Haven't all your recent posts agreed with this idea?

Most important is to create an end game where different strategies and builds are encouraged. You can't do that if the FOTM "best" build is always the best.

I also don't see a problem with those who do more with less getting more "points' whatever that is. It would probably take the lesser group more time and skill, which would be balanced by having them receive more. It would encourage each group to challenge themselves.

[nokowi]

While in essence I like the idea, it's pretty difficult to implement. You'd have to create some sort of measure for suboptimality. I wouldn't even know where to start if I wanted to create something like that. And even if it were possible, smart people would probably exploit it again in some way.....

You take rankings by class and then assign points.

It's trivial. You can further divide build if desired.

When people find an exploit, that class/build ranking goes up and they get less points.

It's self balancing.

People that play a particular build better than everyone else will do best in such a system.

[BoBoDaClown]

Here is how I would do it (clarified):

No more heroic raids.

Level 31 raids: ascension chamber, vault of night/plane of night, chronoscope, reaver's fate, twighlight forge/titan awakes, zawabi's revenge

Level 32 raids: tempest, hound, shroud, fall of truth, lord of blades, master artificer, mark of death, tower of despair

Level 33 raids: vision of destruction, caught in the web, defiler of the just, fire on thunder peak, temple of the deathwyrm

The simple thing to do would change all raids to be between level 31 and 33. Starting at level 20 you can enter them. Each raid has new legendary items that drop from it but also drops a mix of desirable twink items from its old version (SOS, eSOS [no more seals/shards], fully upgraded balizarde [no more need for commendations of heroism], upgraded quiver of alacrity, etc].

That would instantly create an end game in the least effort. You would also bring back bored players who loved the game but felt there was nothing to do (and have drifted away since you killed end game with TR and epic levels).

Even if each raid has only a limited number of options that people want they will run them for that rare drop and create an end game....

Making all the raids legendary is a good idea.

[PermaBanned]

Fwiw: In the posts about points and sub/optimal builds, I've noticed you guys using "Class" and "Build" interchangeably - but they most certainly aren't. Before you can further hash out if/how to rank suboptimality, you'll have to decide on ranking Classes or Builds. Two level 20 Fighters can easily have different levels of effectiveness & optimization based on how they're built. Extend that to Wizards and compare the effectiveness of a DC wiz vs a DPS wiz, pure or splashed...

Just thought I'd put that out there. Been following the discussion, and it is interesting, but the whole Class vs Build thing stuck out at me.

[Forzah]

You take rankings by class and then assign points.

It's trivial. You can further divide build if desired.

When people find an exploit, that class/build ranking goes up and they get less points.

It's self balancing.

People that play a particular build better than everyone else will do best in such a system.

Trivial? There are many complicating factors:

-It's unclear how to rank classes/builds against each other, especially when they are different archetypes.
-How do you programmatically determine the build of a player?
-If you have to keep manually monitoring which builds are more powerful it is not self balancing. There has to be some system in place that does this automatically. Perhaps by measuring the success rate of certain builds and doing some update like the ELO ratings in chess? But then how do you determine the relative contribution of a build when there are 6 players in a group?
-Self balancing when some people exploit is unfair to people who don't exploit.

I don't see this happening. It's too arbitrary and too difficult to implement.

[nokowi]

Fwiw: In the posts about points and sub/optimal builds, I've noticed you guys using "Class" and "Build" interchangeably - but they most certainly aren't. Before you can further hash out if/how to rank suboptimality, you'll have to decide on ranking Classes or Builds. Two level 20 Fighters can easily have different levels of effectiveness & optimization based on how they're built. Extend that to Wizards and compare the effectiveness of a DC wiz vs a DPS wiz, pure or splashed...

Just thought I'd put that out there. Been following the discussion, and it is interesting, but the whole Class vs Build thing stuck out at me.

I used class initially and then extended it to build. The reason to use the simpler word is that you can discuss the merits of a PVE competition without needing to provide the exact implementation of the ranking system.

It is sufficient to say that this ranking system could be extended to build, the effort of which we do not know.

Separately, we could discuss how to rank builds without invalidating the concept of a PVE competition. I would propose that simply looking at overall AP spent in each tree may be enough to define a build. If not, some work would be needed to look at individual player AP choices.

[nokowi]

I don't see this happening. It's too arbitrary and too difficult to implement.

I would suggest that it is much less effort than the 3 year effort to go through each class and try to balance them, and that unlike the class passes, it would serve a segment of the player base that is not being served right now.

Our opinions on the difficulty of implementation don't really matter. Only dev's have that kind of information. A better use of the forums would be to discuss the merits of a PVE competition or what ranking system you feel would be fair.

[Forzah]

I would suggest that it is much less effort than the 3 year effort to go through each class and try to balance them, and that unlike the class passes, it would serve a segment of the player base that is not being served right now.

Our opinions on the difficulty of implementation don't really matter. Only dev's have that kind of information.

I think our opinions do matter. With some coding experience it's possible to make a rough estimate. Given that there is limited manpower, an idea needs to be feasible to implement.

Just developing the code for detecting builds is already quite an amount of work. Then you'd have to make a database with builds, which, given the sheer amount of build options, will be extremely large. After that you'd have to set rankings for each possible build which should somehow given an accurate description of its power. Converting a build to a unique number that accurately measures its power could already take months of thinking and several months of trial and error to get it right. Maybe it can't even be done. It's a hell of a job and its payoff is very uncertain.



A better use of the forums would be to discuss the merits of a PVE competition or what ranking system you feel would be fair.

I find it interesting to discuss implementation of new ideas, so I'll discuss that if I wish to. I also gave a broad idea how rankings could be updated automatically (for example by using an ELO system). Just posting an idea by itself is cool, but a more detailed and worked out idea is much more helpful for the developers. If they think it can be done, they are much likelier to implement it.

[Spookyaction]

Hi forumites,



When the Legendary Raids came out, there was a lot of controversy over whether Legendary Elite was "too much" in some senses. Mob saves are quite hight (particularly fortitude) and their damage is so high that most characters can not stand two hits in a row without healing. Even more, certain mobs, like Sorjek, are 1 shooting non tanky characters.

I have been taking a break from DDO for the past 6 months or so and have been playing another game. I decided it was break time when the lag got to the point of stupidity. The other day I saw a video of a 12 man LE shroud group and thought, wow, doesn't look too bad, so last night I logged back in. I've also upgraded my PC in the last few months but I had a copy of the DDO client on a thumb drive so I launched it from that and logged in. No VIP, no key binds and its amazing how much I have forgotten!

The cap was 28 when I last played, it was about a week before the level expansion so my main toon was still level 28 halfling moncher. I semi sorted out my hotbars and headed to the vale (i own the vale pack) to try the new legendary difficulty for the first time. I went in the quest near the djinn, the one on the left with the cube that roams the hallways.

In on elite, I was solo, didn't want to group with the setup I had (or lack of). I was just interested to see the new quests and experience the new difficulty. What I didn't realize was that all my enhansments except the halfling racial tree had reset during my break, I noticed it about halfway through the quest when I remembered arrow of slaying does huge damage, went to get it and had no enhansments, fail! But whatever I just kited, manually clicking on hotbars to activate adrenaline, manyshot, 10k stars, the 3 halfling heals, cocoon and pin, that's all I had on my hotbars that wasn't grayed out.

There were so many things wrong with my build it would be hard to gimp a toon more if you tried. About 50% my arrows were grazing hits, which I guess is expected as I was 5 levels under the lvl33 elite difficulty but I just kited and slowly got through all the trash. Did some old school floor puzzles, found the levers, killed trash and before I knew it I was at the boss which I activated fury shot on and completed.

I was astounded at how easy the completion was under the circumstances. Level 28, dont even remember what feats I have, no enhansments, no key binds, playing game from a thumb drive (perma yellow connection), first time I've seen the quest, havn't played DDO for over 6 months and didn't use even 1 scroll or potion.

Now I realize this is not a raid but come on, I should have been annihilated under these conditions yet it was a flawless completion!. I can only imagine the power another 2 lvls with new feats, key binds, enhansments and a feel for the game to come back would bring. This is a joke, legendary my a$$.

[JOTMON]

I have been taking a break from DDO for the past 6 months or so and have been playing another game. I decided it was break time when the lag got to the point of stupidity. The other day I saw a video of a 12 man LE shroud group and thought, wow, doesn't look too bad, so last night I logged back in. I've also upgraded my PC in the last few months but I had a copy of the DDO client on a thumb drive so I launched it from that and logged in. No VIP, no key binds and its amazing how much I have forgotten!

The cap was 28 when I last played, it was about a week before the level expansion so my main toon was still level 28 halfling moncher. I semi sorted out my hotbars and headed to the vale (i own the vale pack) to try the new legendary difficulty for the first time. I went in the quest near the djinn, the one on the left with the cube that roams the hallways.

In on elite, I was solo, didn't want to group with the setup I had (or lack of). I was just interested to see the new quests and experience the new difficulty. What I didn't realize was that all my enhansments except the halfling racial tree had reset during my break, I noticed it about halfway through the quest when I remembered arrow of slaying does huge damage, went to get it and had no enhansments, fail! But whatever I just kited, manually clicking on hotbars to activate adrenaline, manyshot, 10k stars, the 3 halfling heals, cocoon and pin, that's all I had on my hotbars that wasn't grayed out.

There were so many things wrong with my build it would be hard to gimp a toon more if you tried. About 50% my arrows were grazing hits, which I guess is expected as I was 5 levels under the lvl33 elite difficulty but I just kited and slowly got through all the trash. Did some old school floor puzzles, found the levers, killed trash and before I knew it I was at the boss which I activated fury shot on and completed.

I was astounded at how easy the completion was under the circumstances. Level 28, dont even remember what feats I have, no enhansments, no key binds, playing game from a thumb drive (perma yellow connection), first time I've seen the quest, havn't played DDO for over 6 months and didn't use even 1 scroll or potion.

Now I realize this is not a raid but come on, I should have been annihilated under these conditions yet it was a flawless completion!. I can only imagine the power another 2 lvls with new feats, key binds, enhansments and a feel for the game to come back would bring. This is a joke, legendary my a$$.

..welcome to dungeon scaling made easy for solo..

[Spookyaction]

..welcome to dungeon scaling made easy for solo..

Didn't they make legendary max scaling?

[JOTMON]

Didn't they make legendary max scaling?

The difficulty within the quests scales to the number of party members on the 1-4 scale.
Solo'ing has several dungeon elements are adjusted, including monster spell durations, hit points, and damage output.

it may say its CR33 but its not the same CR33 if you run with a full party.

The raid itself doesn't scale difficulty based on party size but all the quests do.

[Spookyaction]

nope, quests scale, Raids don't.

Still, hopelessly easy. A lvl30 would fall asleep from boredom.

I don't know, I only ran that one quest, maybe its the easiest one, what are the rest like?

[JOTMON]

Still, hopelessly easy. A lvl30 would fall asleep from boredom.

I don't know, I only ran that one quest, maybe its the easiest one, what are the rest like?

meh, no real difference between 28 and 30.. a few tweaks here and there, but nothing that jumps out in significance.

as to the quests.. not much different...

[Spookyaction]

meh, no real difference between 28 and 30.

as to the quests.. not much different...

Then that's just straight up pathetic. All they hype about the new endgame difficulty, complete joke.

[nokowi]

I think our opinions do matter. With some coding experience it's possible to make a rough estimate. Given that there is limited manpower, an idea needs to be feasible to implement.


Are you suggesting tracking AP spent per tree is of such high difficulty as to make the idea not feasible?

Please lay out for us your estimate of how many man-hours of effort it would take, and compare this with some of the current efforts such as class passes.

If you can't do this then your estimate really means nothing --> it can't show if the idea is feasible or not.

[slarden]

meh, no real difference between 28 and 30.. a few tweaks here and there, but nothing that jumps out in significance.

as to the quests.. not much different...

Basic issue is that ranged and high defenses is too much of an easy button with too little dps loss for the extra sure win that comes with it. Risk reduction should come with steeper dps loss.

[KoobTheProud]

You could fix endgame as a player-based project with virtually no input required from Turbine, however this would require a tighter community than currently exists in DDO.

The simple way to fix endgame is to use none of Epic Destinies, Tomes, 2nd-life+ characters, Warlocks, Iconic Characters, Shifted Druids, Rogue Mechanics and Monkchers and Repeating X-Bows. Cap all gear at level 20, allowing the random loot generated to continue to be used but not above ML 20. Disallow all crafted gear that would break the system. Disallow all guild buffs and other benefits outside of communication.

In that environment it would be really hard to break endgame content at higher difficulty levels. It's possible that you'd have to go even more granular to really get a challenging end game back. You might have to ban other enhancement trees, for Barbarians, for Paladins, maybe for Rangers.

It shouldn't be hard to reverse engineer a challenging endgame just by saying NO to power creep. The question is whether people really want that endgame or if they just want to endlessly advance their characters and expect that endless challenging endgame content will remain in the picture, which is an unlikely prospect.

[Forzah]

Are you suggesting tracking AP spent per tree is of such high difficulty as to make the idea not feasible?

Please lay out for us your estimate of how many man-hours of effort it would take, and compare this with some of the current efforts such as class passes.

If you can't do this then your estimate really means nothing --> it can't show if the idea is feasible or not.

Depends on what you want to do with it. If you want an auto-updating system you need to track all unique builds in a database. The number of unique builds is extremely large, even if you aggregate it by only counting the AP spent in a tree. For example, the number of ways to spent 80 AP over 7 trees is, iirc, 86!/(6!*80!) = 470,155,077. That number should be multiplied by the number of class splits, the number of possible EDs, and the number of twist combinations. That number is probably too large to fit in most computers, so the idea with automatic updating for unique builds is not likely to work.

Maybe a crude approximation could work that adds up some points for each level that you have in a certain class and each AP spent in a certain tree. You'd have to manually assign values for each class level taken and AP spent and make estimates of their relative power. This neglects synergies between classes, so maybe you also have to correct for that.

In terms of coding, the code for adding up those values is trivial; something that can probably be done in several days. The main problem is the manual work required to set the values. For one person, that could take months of testing. Another problem is that you don't get automatic updating of values, so you'd have to manually keep updating the values after each update. You'd probably have to assign one person that keeps monitoring and rebalancing all values. I think in terms of effort that is in the same order as a class pass.

But even then, this approximation will in general be a very poor measure of character power. By smartly leaving out some AP in some trees and putting it in others, it's probably possible to decrease your rank and easily gain more rewards. The fact that some archetypes get relatively higher rankings than others can be a source of anger and potentally make people leave.

From a business perspective it seems like a no-go to me. It is risky, exploitative, and I don't see it bringing in extra profits.

[Wizza]

Basic issue is that ranged and high defenses is too much of an easy button with too little dps loss for the extra sure win that comes with it. Risk reduction should come with steeper dps loss.

Nerf ranged, too OP

[JOTMON]

You could fix endgame as a player-based project with virtually no input required from Turbine, however this would require a tighter community than currently exists in DDO.

The simple way to fix endgame is to use none of Epic Destinies, Tomes, 2nd-life+ characters, Warlocks, Iconic Characters, Shifted Druids, Rogue Mechanics and Monkchers and Repeating X-Bows. Cap all gear at level 20, allowing the random loot generated to continue to be used but not above ML 20. Disallow all crafted gear that would break the system. Disallow all guild buffs and other benefits outside of communication.

In that environment it would be really hard to break endgame content at higher difficulty levels. It's possible that you'd have to go even more granular to really get a challenging end game back. You might have to ban other enhancement trees, for Barbarians, for Paladins, maybe for Rangers.

It shouldn't be hard to reverse engineer a challenging endgame just by saying NO to power creep. The question is whether people really want that endgame or if they just want to endlessly advance their characters and expect that endless challenging endgame content will remain in the picture, which is an unlikely prospect.

currently we have content mashed in all over the place. it does not give a clean progression for those that are levelling.. have to wander around trying to find content and questgivers..

I would have liked to have seen the quest placement to have been laid out a bit differently.. more levels by zones.. instead of the scattering of high and low level content everywhere..
This way similar level quests and players are in the same area's.

Change the system so that Epic Destinies don't work in Eberron at all.. something about the planar energies..
They work fine everywhere else...something to do with the Silver Flame Ward crystals, or Eberron shards... a mystery...


EBERRON
Korthos starter zone.
Harbor. up to level 4.
Market to level 8
Houses to level 12
Lordsmarch/The twelve to 16 (move the rift crack to the twelve from the harbor)
Planes to 20 (shavarath/amaranth)

EBERRON EPICS
Content 20>
Copied from existing locations to an epic zone accessed in the Twelve.. planar energies are bleeding into Eberron..
What were the planescallers doing here in the Twelve.., The Twelve are covering up some secret, but the damage being caused looks as if something big was trying to break free..
Strange planar energies are empowering enemies in Eberron...



FORGOTTEN REALMS, PEAKS, UNDERDARK
Content 15>
Epic destines work here..

PLANAR RIFT ZONE..
Level 28>
Legendary content.. epic destines here work due to the flow of planar energies into the rift.. which is also further empowering the old Eberron bosses....making everything Legendary powerful..


Bring a bit of challenge back to Eberron Epics.. since everyone loses access to their destinies...
pools players into the level appropriate zones instead of losing players across the realms...\
Clean up the story line and bridge from Eberron to FR, Rift in the Planes..

[LagMonsterrrrrr]

Some ranged builds are stupid op as much as warlockss.

And yes to have any kind of decent endgame we need to nerf them hard.

[JOTMON]

Some ranged builds are stupid op as much as warlockss.

And yes to have any kind of decent endgame we need to nerf them hard.


In DDO ranged is optimized to provide attack damage while escaping the brunt of retaliation damage.
aoe trap effects, bursts, debuffs are generally centered on the boss so the ranged is able to skirt these effects and continue to lay down damage.
Few bosses have teleport/ ranged grab effects/ any sort of functional defences vs ranged attacks

In other games when a enemy boss is getting pew pewed by ranged, they activate deflect arrows stances/pop up a shield/take cover/switch to ranged weapons... or otherwise change focus/stance to greatly reducing the incoming ranged damage.
This also opens them up to flank melee damage, increased toe-toe melee damage which encourages a mix of ranged and melee to keep the mob constantly distracted and switching attack modes.. like the pack of wolves and its prey...

I don't think nerfing is required, just better mechanics for bosses to go defensive vs ranged. which should make them susceptible to other attacks..
there should be a cycling of defenses where each type is non-optimal.. caster, melee, ranged.... none of them should give 100% defense, but they should greatly reduce damage by cycling defenses.

[KoobTheProud]

Some ranged builds are stupid op as much as warlockss.

And yes to have any kind of decent endgame we need to nerf them hard.

To have a decent endgame you need to nerf every class enhancement/epic destiny that is more powerful than a pure cleric at this point. You need to ditch the past lives, which at a minimum make DC casters much better with the right past lives, making it impossible to balance content appropriately at end game for 1st lifers and past lifers. You need to bring the player base back to the game because the game cannot possibly satisfy the end game requirements of 1st lifers and multi-past lifers and an endgame that requires leveling to 30 more than once will not bring in new customers but it will continue to bleed old ones.

The most ridiculous thing about the current end game dilemma is that this is DDO. It's Dungeons and Dragons Online. How can this not be one of the best-selling and most profitable FRPG MMO's out there?

How can anybody screw this up?

[Lynnabel]

The question is whether people really want that endgame or if they just want to endlessly advance their characters and expect that endless challenging endgame content will remain in the picture.

What is endgame if not challenging material in which to advance?

I actually vastly prefer the current system where the game starts you at absolute rock bottom with nothing, and points you toward the highest of the high with an assurance that, if you work hard, you actually can make it to the top. I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you. Shouldn't there be an end to the game, a tangible level where you actually can do it all?

[KoobTheProud]

What is endgame if not challenging material in which to advance?

I actually vastly prefer the current system where the game starts you at absolute rock bottom with nothing, and points you toward the highest of the high with an assurance that, if you work hard, you actually can make it to the top. I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you. Shouldn't there be an end to the game, a tangible level where you actually can do it all?

Sure, there should be a point at which nothing is particularly challenging and the current end game content is stale as a result.

This is something that happens in every MMO between expansions at some point. All the top end raiders stop raiding because there's nothing left to farm for them and PUG's rule the day because they're the only way for non top-end players to see the content that challenged the top end players once upon a time.

For many of the current end game players that is the constant state of affairs and with development staff dwindling while power creep continues to go through the roof with each release that's going to get worse instead of better. (It's hard to see a refocusing of Turbine's efforts on mobile games, a genre that will please very few core MMO gamers, as anything but a lessening of the company's interest in maintaining their full MMO's in the normal fashion.)

If Turbine is actively pursuing the power creep with new content that is designed to challenge it, well that's an implicit slap in the face for everybody who is not an endgame player because we're never going to see that content even if it is published. That's also a guaranteed way to shrink the customer base further since veteran endgame players will burn out and leave anyway and nothing that you're producing for them is going to mean much to new players.

BTW, if working towards endgame meant playing to top level and gearing and all of that I'd be more inclined to support endgame content. In DDO it means playing 24x7 so that you can reincarnate at least a half dozen times to get the past lives you need for what you're trying to do (and every "end game" build needs a bunch of past lives to get close to optimal at this point.) That's not an acceptable path to expect a new player of the game to take and so the end game community continually shrinks under the pressure of burnout, real life and just people moving on without being replaced at the level necessary to maintain a large vibrant end game community.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that MMO's are enough of a hamster wheel as it is to get to end game and DDO is like a wheel for professional hamsters. :)

[Blastyswa]

BTW, if working towards endgame meant playing to top level and gearing and all of that I'd be more inclined to support endgame content. In DDO it means playing 24x7 so that you can reincarnate at least a half dozen times to get the past lives you need for what you're trying to do (and every "end game" build needs a bunch of past lives to get close to optimal at this point.)

Just thought I'd mention that in my own experience, It is more of "playing to top level and gearing" than reincarnations. My main character is almost completely maxed out on past lives (Missing some martials and some arcanes, because my AC won't be very relevant either way and I'm missing 3% energy absorption, big woop) playing a tanky warlock build, while I have several other characters playing DC druids, throwers, furyshotters, wolves, wizards, and favored souls, among a few other builds. I see absolutely no visible power difference between the main character and my alts; my first life thrower can clear a dungeon in the same time as my main character, and neither build dies playing the same content. In addition, that's a build that is first life to the extreme extent that I don't even have destinies maxed, or any EPLs. The problem I see at the moment is that a first life character with the best available gear (My thrower doesn't have ender's set, but he has the best BTA/random gen loot I could get) at max level can perform equally to a 92nd life character with the best available gear and max level.

A lot of the complaining about the effect of past lives stems from people who have either very few past lives or no past lives at all; both of these views are skewed, since past life benefits are largely front-ended (the first 2 heroic reincarnations, first 3 iconic reincarnations, and first 3 epic reincarnations in each sphere are fairly significant power boosts, as well as wizard/fvs past lives for casters.) so players who have done a few past lives see a decent increase in that characters power and assume that power will continue growing linearly as more past lives are accumulated; in actuality, a completionist and a triple completionist, barring builds that use spell penetration check spells, will perform so similarly that it is hardly noticeable, and the difference between a completionist and a 3rd life is similarly little. Players who have been with the game long enough to become completionists/triple completionists are experienced more with the ins and outs of the game than someone who either joined late or has played for years on the same build and then switches builds, and so perform better.

Besides, "optimal" is very different than "useable in all content". A build that is useable in all content can be far from optimal, but it can still pull it's weight up to and in LE Shroud. A lot of the current issue with people on an eternal hamster wheel trying to catch up with triple completionists is that they are told they need to, and so they TR out of their first life gimp build (Because honestly, most completely new players play something like a 12/4/4 monk/paly/rogue and blame the gap between themselves and the 20 warlock or 10/6/4 druid in the party on past-lives) before maxing destinies at 30 with the correct gear on it, and so continue on the hamster wheel because every life their build continues to underperform; sadly, the actual reason for this underperformance is because they insist on staying on that hamster wheel grinding out tiny bonuses instead of staying at max level and getting to know a build, and acquiring the gear necessary to make that build work.

[KoobTheProud]

Warlocks are kind of an exception to all the rules in DDO at this point, at least from a solo perspective.

I was thinking the other day about how we're due for another reboot of the DDO franchise, similar to the F2P - which introduced Favored Souls (I think) and then the MOTU ED's. Then it occurred to me that the release of the Warlock was at least as impactful from the standpoint of a solo player as either of the previous reboots.

I hear what you're saying about difficulty at the top level not being nearly as wide a gulf as it seems. But then I go and look at some of the Warlock builds in the forum and I realize that I am 3 Favored Soul lives and 3 Cleric Lives and 3 Wizard lives and 3 Sorceror lives at a minimum from being optimized for things like DC spell casting and Spell Penetration. I'm 9 Divine EPL's away from the 27 PRR they have (which is a reduction of about 5% in overall physical damage at the numbers we're talking). I'm Epic Completionist away from the 5th twist.

The reality is that DDO rewards people for non-stop leveling on a hamster wheel in a way that very few other games do. I play a LOT. I mean 3 hours a day many weeks of the year. I have tried the hamster wheel, running The Lords of Dust every day and a couple of other quests just for XP and farming of important items, and it just isn't a human endeavor to play enough to get the many past lives required to have a top level character. You basically have to be playing 3+ hours a day every day to get on that progression or playing always under an XP pot or buying a bunch of Otto's Boxes to keep the leveling going.

From the perspective of a long time dedicated casual player end game seems impossibly far away if the content is being tuned to reward the number of past lives that many players have achieved to get there. I can't even imagine what it looks like from the perspective of a D&D fan who is also an MMO fan once they realize what the deal is.

I've been an end game player in every MMO I've played except for DDO. In DDO end game just seems like an endless grind.

[axel15810]

What is endgame if not challenging material in which to advance?

I actually vastly prefer the current system where the game starts you at absolute rock bottom with nothing, and points you toward the highest of the high with an assurance that, if you work hard, you actually can make it to the top. I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you.

Shouldn't there be an end to the game, a tangible level where you actually can do it all?

No, not really. There shouldn't be an end in an MMO or people quit and stop playing. It's a tough challenge for you content devs but there needs to be new stuff to do each update that offers new rewards and here's the most important part - there needs to be a compelling reason to get the new rewards...AKA you should need them to complete the new top difficulty offered with the new content.

In my opinion the biggest issue with the current endgame is that too much of a percentage of a character's power is built into the characters themselves, and not enough into loot. I think the difficulty itself is in a good spot, just not enough incentive to go after the loot. With the past few updates I haven't cared to get any of the new stuff, even if it's more powerful simply because it's not necessary.

[sirgog]

Hi forumites,



When the Legendary Raids came out, there was a lot of controversy over whether Legendary Elite was "too much" in some senses. Mob saves are quite hight (particularly fortitude) and their damage is so high that most characters can not stand two hits in a row without healing. Even more, certain mobs, like Sorjek, are 1 shooting non tanky characters.

The general complain is that it favored cheesy approaches instead of providing challenge. For example, instead of needed a maxxed out wizard to be able to overcome spell resistance and saves, moving to shiradi. Or instead of doing melee, using a mechanic or some other good DPS ranged character.

Another issue that was brought up is that the level of damage the mobs put out is so high that it breaks the traditional "marginal differences" approach DDO has. Typically, well built toons must make some choices between defense and offense that result in marginal differences. For example, slotting a quality+insight PRR item, or rather using that for a DPS / utility slot. However, in the current end game, those differences are no longer that relevant. In many scenarios marginal differences do not make or break survivability, since the damage is so high that survivability becomes a step function.

While there was some initial outrage, most people have moved on one way or another and now LE raids are run frequently in organized groups (and good PUGs). To be clear, most random groups cannot complete LE (or even LH sometimes), but strong guilds and groups of players are completing LE just fine. For an example, see this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhr82kRqisc) of a LE shroud (probably the top difficulty in the game) finished in around 30 minutes. Typically the strategy followed involves some good DC, kiting of certain bosses, and generally accepting that you are going to die now and then.

So this is my question: is the level of challenge currently offered by the game acceptable? Is it well designed, that is, designed in a way that is fun to play and uses the abilities of the different toons to its best? Is it hard enough, at top difficulties, to be a noteworthy achievement?

My personal opinion is that it is not. While we still see groups failing (for instance I led to failed LH hounds recently), good guilds / groups regularly complete the content in what can be considered "speed runs". If it can be speed run, it is not a true challenge in my book. I understand that some people might think it is at a good spot: reachable for excellent groups, still not there for strong groups, and impossible for average. That's fine, I just don't share that view. For example, IMHO no spell or ability should be 95% in end game.

Thoughts?

PS- Another issue is that availability of stuff to do at cap, but my understanding is that they are attempting to build that (and would belong to a different discussion).



Kiting is inherently overpowered in this game.

Back when I played more, the only two raids that seriously addressed this were Lord of Blades and Vision of Destruction, with quite harsh anti-kiting mechanics.

LE is balanced around being moderately challenging for people that abuse the most broken mechanics available, hence the kitefest with one-hit KOs. Most EE content that was endgame for a period was the same at the time of release too.

At least some monsters need to possess abilities that seriously threaten a kiting player.

[PermaBanned]

How can anybody screw this up?Easy: Turbine as a stand alone studio made a sweet D&D Online game. Then WB bought the studio, and apearantly decided offering something unique in the MMO world was bad and took steps to make this game more like every other game. It seems the (now former) players who liked the (now former) uniqueness also took some steps... (away from the game)

[BigErkyKid]

What is endgame if not challenging material in which to advance?

I actually vastly prefer the current system where the game starts you at absolute rock bottom with nothing, and points you toward the highest of the high with an assurance that, if you work hard, you actually can make it to the top. I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you. Shouldn't there be an end to the game, a tangible level where you actually can do it all?

Yes, you guys have achieved this to a 100%. But sadly this is NOT what I (and perhaps some other end gamers) want.

I don't want to work hard, I want to be challenged. I don't want to run 20 completions of something to grind a reward, I want to fail 19 times and finally manage to score a victory that was almost a failure.

You guys have built a game that is based on grinding (working hard) but not so much on skill (let it be twitch or group based). I don't have to think hard to get to the top level of power in DDO, I just have to sink a lot of time and run my dailies. Then, I will have a toon that can defeat the DC and spell penetrations (not a real skill, a time sink check).

Furthermore, one of the key beauties of DDO is that there are many archetypes to play, and that all should feel rewarding and capable of things that others can't do, but over 10 years you have managed to kill that aspect.

Today I was planning on doing a TR, but being a semi-experienced player and builder I know that some of the options laid out in from of me aren't really options, just sweet rookie traps. I love the idea of rune arms, but they are useless (DC can't scratch mobs, not enough damage anyway). I would really like to play an eldritch knight type (call it a young Elminster), but I know that they are completely subpar. I could go on for a while.

Nowadays end game is running LE in 3 raids. LE any of the existing quests can be done relatively easily, so I don't count that as end game. If you want to be truly effective (bring something unique to the party), you need to resort to a handful of builds. Bonus points if you are willing to use a broken one (say a tree, or a wolfploit).

I hope that moving forward you address this issues. I would love to have a challenging end game, with wide variety of challenges. I would love that in that end game different builds are balanced to be effective in their own way. I hope that besides the TR enthusiast there are other devs left in DDO that could deliver that end game.

[Ykt]

now LE raids are run frequently in organized groups (and good PUGs). To be clear, most random groups cannot complete LE (or even LH sometimes), but strong guilds and groups of players are completing LE just fine. Typically the strategy followed involves some good DC, kiting of certain bosses, and generally accepting that you are going to die now and then.

So this is my question: is the level of challenge currently offered by the game acceptable? Is it well designed, that is, designed in a way that is fun to play and uses the abilities of the different toons to its best? Is it hard enough, at top difficulties, to be a noteworthy achievement?

I think according to Turbine's definition (sorry no source but you can find infos in the discussions about Reaper/Legendary) of tough challenge: this is it. They wanted something only few players could achieve.

IMO the difficulty should be lowered so that
- LE shroud becomes LH shroud
- LH shroud becomes LN shroud
- and LN shroud becomes about as tough as an EH quest (4-5k hp mobs instead of 10k hp), not so easy for new players/first lives/not best gear, but not a series of *ding* rez *ding* for them

[MeliCat]

What is endgame if not challenging material in which to advance?

I actually vastly prefer the current system where the game starts you at absolute rock bottom with nothing, and points you toward the highest of the high with an assurance that, if you work hard, you actually can make it to the top. I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you. Shouldn't there be an end to the game, a tangible level where you actually can do it all?

^ and this is why people leave the game. They 'finish' it and want to move onto something else. And that is disappointing for the community who get to know these people who get bored and then leave. And why even bother starting if the end is not worth it as it's not enough of a challenge?

[levy1964]

What is endgame if not challenging material in which to advance?

I actually vastly prefer the current system where the game starts you at absolute rock bottom with nothing, and points you toward the highest of the high with an assurance that, if you work hard, you actually can make it to the top. I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you. Shouldn't there be an end to the game, a tangible level where you actually can do it all?

try play in this game, day after day on 1year....dayli quest : ENx2 Von3,4,spies,WK,oob,grim...<- this is the big part actual state of game and gamer who are focuse on "grind" eTR PL, becouse what can do else ? if end game are non exist or are super small part of game.....4 end game raid, ups mistake[edit] 3 raids, or mayby 2 ?, becouse tempest and hox have same loot

is borring....this ENx2, is really borring

ENx2...come on!?

[Forzah]

What is endgame if not challenging material in which to advance?

I actually vastly prefer the current system where the game starts you at absolute rock bottom with nothing, and points you toward the highest of the high with an assurance that, if you work hard, you actually can make it to the top. I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you. Shouldn't there be an end to the game, a tangible level where you actually can do it all?

There is a natural end: getting that last item you want for your character. The trick for developers is to make getting that last item challenging/long enough so new content can be generated in the meanwhile. Then people keep playing and there will be more players online. As long as raid timers are allowed to be bypassed, it will be very challenging to create lasting content.

[Faltout]

What is endgame if not challenging material in which to advance?

I actually vastly prefer the current system where the game starts you at absolute rock bottom with nothing, and points you toward the highest of the high with an assurance that, if you work hard, you actually can make it to the top. I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you. Shouldn't there be an end to the game, a tangible level where you actually can do it all?
NO. Absolutely not. When you finish the game and you can do it all then why continue playing the game?

- Because new content with new limits comes out? (as some posters here suggest) And how often does this happen? Every 2-3 months? So, players reach the top level in a week and then for the rest 7 weeks they leave the game? I don't see how they would keep coming back for the next update...

- Because that limit is so hard to get time wise that new content with new limits will be out before getting to it? (as some posters here suggest) Then that is an extremelly boring game that you keep doing the exact same thing using the exact same method till you finally make some progress. I don't see how players would be able to endure that grind.

- Because your friends are playing the game? Sure, that is a valid reason. But there are other games that offer that AND other stuff. Why not just switch to those games at the earliest convenience?

The correct answer is because you can never reach a point when you can do it all.

I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you.
You are confused as to what kinds of "improvements" there are:
- There is the improvement of character power
- There is the improvement of gear
- There is the improvement of time spent
If a game keeps raising the limit on the 3 above improvements, then it is indeed taunting you.

However, there is the improvement of playstyle, tactics, communication. Thank god, DDO has an extremelly large variation when it comes to this. Every build has different playstyle, every quest has different tactics, every party has different communication. A game that lets you sit at the top of character power, gear and time spent but still does not provide you with a good chance of success is not taunting you. It's simply challenging you to find better tactics and communicate better with your party members. That can never get old because you run with new party members each time.
So it's ok if an endgame quest (or any quest really) has a difficulty level that is NEVER a sure victory no matter how much godlike your gear is.

And with the above in mind, there is NO END GAME in a game. The end of the game is when you stop playing. And if you want to call something an endgame, that is when you have all the gear and all the pastlives and you keep TRing playing quests in the full spectrum of levels trying to become a better player or trying to make others better players.

Finally, take the example of a game that has no gear or power progression like chess. There sure is a progression: A new player can never defeat veteran players. As you play more and more of the game and encounter higher level players, you become better at the game? Do your pawns become better equipped or gain better abilities? No. Simply you become more skilled at playing the game. And even when you are at the top of the list and have beaten every other player, a chess match is still not 100% success because different tactics, different minds. Similarly, a game that with each new gear upgrade offers improved difficulty like Dark Souls is bound to not become boring by players that like it. Not saying that the difficulty needs to be as high as Dark Souls, but the point is that with each character progression comes difficulty progression. So the power level of the character is ALWAYS several steps behind content power level. And the only way to beat content is by playing smarter.

[Forzah]

I still see a lot of people confusing endgame with "end of the game". They are not the same.

Endgame means the final stage in the game (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/endgame). The final stage in the game may be played endlessly. End of the game is one specific moment in time where the game stops.

[Faltout]

I still see a lot of people confusing endgame with "end of the game". They are not the same.

Endgame means the final stage in the game (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/endgame). The final stage in the game may be played endlessly. End of the game is one specific moment in time where the game stops.
The definition you provide:
1. Does not mention anything about being played endlessly.
2. Does not apply to MMORPG games. There is no "main reduction of forces" or "final stages" in such a game.

[PermaBanned]

Everything I've read over ~the last 15ish posts is a glaring example of how allowing (if not out right intentionally causing) the "highest" difficulty setting to become the "standard" difficulty setting. There's no progression from Normal to Hard to Elite - instead there's Elite, and you go down to Hard or Normal for some extra fast XP after all the Elite XP is used up.

Want to return some challenge and difficulty to the game? Want players to have something to aspire towards? Start kicking their asses again. Make us swap down to Normal for the easy wins, let Hard be an actual description instead of mearly a title, and make Elite genuinely harder than Hard. Of course that won't happen, ~Sev's already said so quite plainly: players are used to Eliting their way through the game and DDO decision makers don't want that to change.

But seriously, go back a page and reread every response to Lynnabel. Repeatedly the issues of lack of challenge, quickly beating content upon release, and a lack of things to do with a capped character get referenced. If new content was beat on Normal shortly after release, but Hard and especially Elite had some kind of learning/development curve then all our content would have much longer legs.

As long as our game's content continues to be designed with this philosophy of "Take from them nothing, and give to them... EVERYTHING!" then the status quo will remain: more people leaving than arriving, more people sampling than staying.

Turbine, it's well past time to stop lowering the bar for your competitors. I wouldn't even call "The Forest" a competitor in terms of gameplay, but it's still taken more of my playtime than DDO since I installed it a month ago.

[Forzah]

The definition you provide:
1. Does not mention anything about being played endlessly.

Notice I used the word "may". The definition leaves open whether the final stage is finite or infinite. In DDOs case it may be infinite.



2. Does not apply to MMORPG games. There is no "main reduction of forces" or "final stages" in such a game.

Since DDO is not chess, I'm (evidently) not referring to the definition that only applies to chess, but to "the final stage of some action or process". That definition is broad and can be applied to many processes/actions, including MMORPG games. You'd still have to define what final stage is for the specific process you consider. In MMORPGs typically the final stage is defined as playing at the level cap.

Either way, regardless of how you exactly define endgame, it's important not to confuse endgame and end of the game with each other.

[Lynnabel]

When you finish the game and you can do it all then why continue playing the game?

If you can't ever reach the end, why continue playing the game? I personally happen to think DDO is a lot of fun, which is a lot of why I play. Some of why I play, though, it because I know that my efforts will eventually get me to the end, and I can look back and say that I actually won an online game.

My answer to "what's the point?" posts will always be "because it's fun."

[FranOhmsford]

Everything I've read over ~the last 15ish posts is a glaring example of how allowing (if not out right intentionally causing) the "highest" difficulty setting to become the "standard" difficulty setting. There's no progression from Normal to Hard to Elite - instead there's Elite, and you go down to Hard or Normal for some extra fast XP after all the Elite XP is used up.

Want to return some challenge and difficulty to the game? Want players to have something to aspire towards? Start kicking their asses again. Make us swap down to Normal for the easy wins, let Hard be an actual description instead of mearly a title, and make Elite genuinely harder than Hard. Of course that won't happen, ~Sev's already so quite plainly: players are used to Eliting their way through the game and DDO decision makers don't want that to change.

If you do this Devs then you'd better change Favour to give maximum at Normal Difficulty or you'll lose an absolute tonne of players!

You will also need to change Renown Rewards to be much closer on Normal to Elite and when overlevelling quests because otherwise only the Ubers will be able to level their Guilds!


More importantly DON'T CAVE IN TO SAID UBERS!
If they want an Extreme Difficulty setting then you can give them that setting without hurting the rest of us - Make it hard enough that even Triple Completionists require a Group to actually complete it but give it NO EXTRA XP, Loot, Favour or Renown above what is got for Elite {OK maybe add some loot Rewards that are ONLY USABLE IN THAT DIFFICULTY but make sure you don't invalidate said difficulty with said loot}.
Tell them that this difficulty setting is there for the Challenge they say they want and that's it!

[legendkilleroll]

More importantly DON'T CAVE IN TO SAID UBERS!
If they want an Extreme Difficulty setting then you can give them that setting without hurting the rest of us - Make it hard enough that even Triple Completionists require a Group to actually complete it but give it NO EXTRA XP, Loot, Favour or Renown above what is got for Elite {OK maybe add some loot Rewards that are ONLY USABLE IN THAT DIFFICULTY but make sure you don't invalidate said difficulty with said loot}.
Tell them that this difficulty setting is there for the Challenge they say they want and that's it!

Typical you would say something like this.

The only caving in that's been done, is towards the casuals, new player, lesser skilled etc to make elite the standard

How you can say the opposite I dont know, its called elite, its about time that name actually meant something

[Blastyswa]

If you can't ever reach the end, why continue playing the game? I personally happen to think DDO is a lot of fun, which is a lot of why I play. Some of why I play, though, it because I know that my efforts will eventually get me to the end, and I can look back and say that I actually won an online game.

My answer to "what's the point?" posts will always be "because it's fun."

My problem is that reaching the end has become too easy. I have first life characters with mostly BTA gear I've pulled on my main that are fairly effective in LE Shroud; I could boost their power more by acquiring additional BTC gear, getting a full ender set, or grinding out some past lives (When I say first life, I mean not even ETRs) but what's the point if I can already play the highest difficulty quest? I would love if the new update (Or the one after that, but relatively soon) would include either a reaper type difficulty, or simply vastly more difficult quests. I remember in other MMO's my groups would all log on the day before attempting a raid, and spend an hour or two just discussing our roles and strategies in the upcoming raid. We would then proceed to do that raid maybe 20-30 times, failing each time, and each time having to use mic callouts, coordination, and brutal decisionmaking, as everyone wasn't able to carry around stacks of 100 6 second cooldown resurrection spells. after 20-30 runs, we'd finally pull a completion, and we'd done all of this not necessarily for the loot, although the loot was a significant step up from our previous gear, but because it was fun and challenging.

Conversely, I make daily runs of LE Shroud on Cannith.

[Qhualor]

If you do this Devs then you'd better change Favour to give maximum at Normal Difficulty or you'll lose an absolute tonne of players!

You will also need to change Renown Rewards to be much closer on Normal to Elite and when overlevelling quests because otherwise only the Ubers will be able to level their Guilds!


More importantly DON'T CAVE IN TO SAID UBERS!
If they want an Extreme Difficulty setting then you can give them that setting without hurting the rest of us - Make it hard enough that even Triple Completionists require a Group to actually complete it but give it NO EXTRA XP, Loot, Favour or Renown above what is got for Elite {OK maybe add some loot Rewards that are ONLY USABLE IN THAT DIFFICULTY but make sure you don't invalidate said difficulty with said loot}.
Tell them that this difficulty setting is there for the Challenge they say they want and that's it!

thank you for suggesting a new insanely difficulty setting for most players that already rollover elite and suggest no good reward for completing a severely increased challenge. than turn around and say if elite becomes too much for you to handle at level that max favor should be granted on the easiest difficulty setting. sounds like a good way to kill the game to me.

[Qhualor]

Everything I've read over ~the last 15ish posts is a glaring example of how allowing (if not out right intentionally causing) the "highest" difficulty setting to become the "standard" difficulty setting. There's no progression from Normal to Hard to Elite - instead there's Elite, and you go down to Hard or Normal for some extra fast XP after all the Elite XP is used up.

Want to return some challenge and difficulty to the game? Want players to have something to aspire towards? Start kicking their asses again. Make us swap down to Normal for the easy wins, let Hard be an actual description instead of mearly a title, and make Elite genuinely harder than Hard. Of course that won't happen, ~Sev's already so quite plainly: players are used to Eliting their way through the game and DDO decision makers don't want that to change.

But seriously, go back a page and reread every response to Lynnabel. Repeatedly the issues of lack of challenge, quickly beating content upon release, and a lack of things to do with a capped character get referenced. If new content was beat on Normal shortly after release, but Hard and especially Elite had some kind of learning/development curve then all our content would have much longer legs.

As long as our game's content continues to be designed with this philosophy of "Take from them nothing, and give to them... EVERYTHING!" then the status quo will remain: more people leaving than arriving, more people sampling than staying.

Turbine, it's well past time to stop lowering the bar for your competitors. I wouldn't even call "The Forest" a competitor in terms of gameplay, but it's still taken more of my playtime than DDO since I installed it a month ago.

if only we could rebalance the difficulty settings...

[PermaBanned]

If you do this Devs then you'd better change Favour to give maximum at Normal Difficulty or you'll lose an absolute tonne of players!

You will also need to change Renown Rewards to be much closer on Normal to Elite and when overlevelling quests because otherwise only the Ubers will be able to level their Guilds!


More importantly DON'T CAVE IN TO SAID UBERS!
If they want an Extreme Difficulty setting then you can give them that setting without hurting the rest of us - Make it hard enough that even Triple Completionists require a Group to actually complete it but give it NO EXTRA XP, Loot, Favour or Renown above what is got for Elite {OK maybe add some loot Rewards that are ONLY USABLE IN THAT DIFFICULTY but make sure you don't invalidate said difficulty with said loot}.
Tell them that this difficulty setting is there for the Challenge they say they want and that's it!
You should've left me on ignore.

Favor worked just fine for many years during a much healthier stage of the games life with people leveling on Normal difficulties and returning later for Elite Favor/TP. You're no spokesman for any sort of influentially supported perspective, get over your self already.

[Vish]

On endgame part duex

Looks like the doomsayers have moved the goalposts
But now the cry is not maintenance, but endgame

So it sounds like a rebirth,?*
With a movie in the making

Like the cycle of life and death
That which we experience daily in game

In the notion of rebirth
Is ascension

What you would call a triple completionist
In ddo terms...

So that is the endgame goal
And to live there
Perpetually on an ascended state

So we practice rebirth
Til we get it right
And escape the cycle
Become ascended

So the doom has given birth to the bloom


Notes1
This would be an aphorism

Notes2
You're doing fine
Give you another year

[KoobTheProud]

Easy: Turbine as a stand alone studio made a sweet D&D Online game. Then WB bought the studio, and apearantly decided offering something unique in the MMO world was bad and took steps to make this game more like every other game. It seems the (now former) players who liked the (now former) uniqueness also took some steps... (away from the game)

I'm not sure Turbine was ever completely standalone. Weren't they in the suite of Microsoft-preferred developers when they were making Asheron's Call? I seem to recall a huge tie-in there with Microsoft at about the time Bill Gates was going through his conversion to game-friendly after he realized how much games had helped Windows 95 catch the Mac.

Edit: the biggest problem with DDO at this point, in my opinion, is that it has gotten away from D&D and become more like a superhero game. It doesn't have the feel of an authentic D&D experience any more after the first few levels. Korthos was always the strange outlier as it was, with Sahuagin being the baddies and all the Steampunk Cannith stuff introducing people to the game. Then you got back to recognizable D&D in Stormreach in most of the content. This recognizable content lasted right up to Demon Queen at 12.

Now with the power creep the superhero stuff starts fairly early maybe as early as 9 or 10 with the new rand gen loot and classes available (Artificer/Warlock) and never lets go after that until mini-Thors are wreaking havoc on the content by epic levels.

I'm going to postulate that the mini-Thor equivalents in 2009 and 2010 were the Warforged Sorcs and Human Favored Souls and for some reason all the development since then has been to bring the rest of the pop up to their levels, actually surpassing them by quite a large amount at this point. I know I'm ignoring the Exploiterr builds in all of this but everybody knew they were an outlier that some people liked to play because they were individually powerful and could solo content that very few other class/multi-classes could.

Why didn't Turbine just leave things as they were, with more class availability but not hyper-powerful in the process? People who needed the individual power would have kept playing the few builds that could do that and the rest of us could have kept playing normal builds, without worrying about power creep driving us towards the most powerful builds and classes on a consistent basis.

You can't cater just to powergamers without driving everybody else out eventually. And the powergamers will burn out just like everybody else unless you keep creeping power and content towards them.

[Lynnabel]

On endgame part duex

Looks like the doomsayers have moved the goalposts
But now the cry is not maintenance, but endgame

So it sounds like a rebirth,?*
With a movie in the making

Like the cycle of life and death
That which we experience daily in game

In the notion of rebirth
Is ascension

What you would call a triple completionist
In ddo terms...

So that is the endgame goal
And to live there
Perpetually on an ascended state

So we practice rebirth
Til we get it right
And escape the cycle
Become ascended

So the doom has given birth to the bloom


Notes1
This would be an aphorism

Notes2
You're doing fine
Give you another year

This looks a lot like a poem and inspiration struck me, so here is my response.

Why do all games need progression based elements?
Even in ones where it "isn’t quite relevant?"
It's because fun's abstract
But player power can't backtrack
And character stagnation's just inelegant.

But it's clear that the in-game reality
Is designed forward with non-linearity.
The game gives you a choice,
But both sides have a voice
'Cause this endgame is only formality.

The freedom’s a guide rail, not a cage
that the metagame is meant to engage.
If you're not having fun,
with your past lives all done,
Try content you've left back with age.

But seriously though, I'm of the opinion that the answer to every question that starts with "But why?" should be answered with "Because it's fun."

"But why is there a goal to reach for?" "Because it's fun."

[KoobTheProud]

This looks a lot like a poem and inspiration struck me, so here is my response.

Why do all games need progression based elements?
Even in ones where it "isn’t quite relevant?"
It's because fun's abstract
But player power can't backtrack
And character stagnation's just inelegant.

But it's clear that the in-game reality
Is designed forward with non-linearity.
The game gives you a choice,
But both sides have a voice
'Cause this endgame is only formality.

The freedom’s a guide rail, not a cage
that the metagame is meant to engage.
If you're not having fun,
with your past lives all done,
Try content you've left back with age.

But seriously though, I'm of the opinion that the answer to every question that starts with "But why?" should be answered with "Because it's fun."

"But why is there a goal to reach for?" "Because it's fun."

I like the rap here.

That said, the primary problem is that there's not enough new content to enjoy old builds in and we all know the old content like the back of our hands at this point, making it not challenging or interesting in most cases.

I recently TR'd a Warlock and ran her through Korthos complete, the Guard Jung/Waterworks series and into The Seal of Shan-to-Kor. I knew every twist of those quests from the many times i ran them back in the day and I found myself wanting to speed through them as fast as I could despite having started with the inclination to sight-see some and remember the good old days. Then I took her into the Catacombs and she was very OP for them because EB Chain is just frighteningly OP against linear content with lots of mobs.

I don't even know what I want to do with her next because I know all the content she's going to go through very well. The initial plan was to take her from Seal of Shan-to-Kor to Tangleroot Gorge but I don't want to get into the same situation there that I had in Seal and regret running it half way through and just want it to be over.

This leads into the inevitable question of at what level is running things with her going to be fun and why? Am I just running this life to run another one after it? What am I going to do with her in the next life if not what I was so ambivalent about in this life?

It's a DDO existential question for me and absent significant new content to TR through I suspect it will lead to another long absence from the game as I go do something else, only this time without much certainty that the game will still be here when I return.

[FranOhmsford]

thank you for suggesting a new insanely difficulty setting for most players that already rollover elite and suggest no good reward for completing a severely increased challenge. than turn around and say if elite becomes too much for you to handle at level that max favor should be granted on the easiest difficulty setting. sounds like a good way to kill the game to me.

You know full well that's not what I said!

I am advocating for a specific difficulty setting completely separate from N/H/E for Completionists and those on Maxed out Multi-Life Toons who can cope with it!

This would have no bearing on Elite whatsoever!

The argument about Favour and Elite was specifically aimed at the insistence by some people on making Elite more difficult!

These are two completely separate arguments that by conflating you are deliberately and blatantly twisting my words!


A Challenge difficulty set up to Challenge the very best should NOT be given extra rewards because:
1) That makes it a required difficulty for everyone to try and reach whether they want to or not, whether they can cope with it or not!
and
2) The Loot given in it would invariably invalidate it over time as people got more and more of it!

Challenge should be there for Challenge Sake alone - If people WANT to be Challenged they'll run it whether there's extra rewards for it or not!

[BigErkyKid]

Challenge should be there for Challenge Sake alone - If people WANT to be Challenged they'll run it whether there's extra rewards for it or not!

Again the same argument? The top difficulty should be more rewarding and it is obvious why.

If casual is equally rewarding people would just farm casual for gear and XP and those who took the time to try to beat "elite" would be left behind.

Before the huge leap in power we have seen that was the case. EH-EN daily could net more XP/min at a time when most power came from the accumulation of PL/ePLs. Now anyone can streak 20-30 on a borelock, but that was not always the case. Not to speak of the absolutely ridiculous ENx20 raid trains.

In case no one has noticed, the achievements section of the game is completely dead. It was always a small club but now the people leading the longest standing threads are gone without anyone to replace them. If that's not a testimony to the level of challenge in the game, I don't know what is.

[zehnvhex]

What is endgame if not challenging material in which to advance?

I actually vastly prefer the current system where the game starts you at absolute rock bottom with nothing, and points you toward the highest of the high with an assurance that, if you work hard, you actually can make it to the top. I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you. Shouldn't there be an end to the game, a tangible level where you actually can do it all?

This is why I love games with endless mazes like the D3 rift system. There's always that carrot of more difficult content but people are able to 'stop' at any point saying "This is as reasonably far as I can get and I'm okay with that."

By contrast by having raids or groups with a static challenge cap you end up with some of the population disappointed that there's no greater challenge available, another portion of the population frustrated that they don't have the time/skill/logistics to do that content and are forced into lower stuff. The number of people for whom the content is 'just right(tm)' is quite small.

The brilliance of an endless maze with scaling difficulty is that you can challenge yourself on it instead of having to force challenge on yourself. In DDO if you want a challenge you have to gimp yourself significantly ~or~ try to solo content that is seriously not meant to be (LE shroud for example). The problem is that there is no greater reward system in place for this. If I do LE Search and Rescue with my super OP warlock build, I get the same reward as if I try it with a gimp battle cleric.

Challenge is ultimately relative. Who should you balance the difficulty around? Flash, arguably one of the best video game players of all time? Me, a former competitive gamer but now retired father? My wife who will randomly go afk during the middle of boss fights because she thinks now would be a good time to water her flowers?

Who do you balance challenge around?

By offering an endlessly scaling challenge maze and grafting some sort of reward structure onto it (AA's) you accomplish -many- things in DDO.

- You give people at the end game a -reason- to stay at level 30 other then to bang out those 21 dungeons you need to do to TR.
- You give people something to ~do~ other then one of two raids that still offer any semblance of an upgrade.
- You give people a ladder they can challenge themselves against that always gives them something for their time an effort.
- You give people something to develop bragging rights over. "Woot, maze floor 67! New record!"
- You give yourself breathing room to work on good content to accompany this endless maze instead of always feeling pressured to try to outpace how fast the community devours new things.

And so on.

So yes, I do enjoy 'being done.' But with an endless maze -I- get to decide when that is and not the game saying, "Sorry, we have nothing more for you. Go play some more HOTS now or something."

[Baktiotha]

If you do this Devs then you'd better change Favour to give maximum at Normal Difficulty or you'll lose an absolute tonne of players!

This is not correct.

I don't even see how it is possible for a person with a 2010 join date to think that their opinion mirrors the perspective of new players. And, I can only speak for myself but the opinion certainly does not mirror those of the established players that I know. And, considering that one of the accounts I play dates to 2006 I encounter a number of established players.

One of the frequent observations on the boards is that DDO is too easy. The observation that players tackle everything on elite and only quest hard or normal after registering their streak exactly mirrors my experience.

Another frequent observation is that a number of quests go unplayed. The reasons are many but one of the most obvious is that they are not needed for XP.

A third frequent observation is that it is difficult to find groups. That is because soloing is so easy that people just don't bother.

Pushing the difficulty of quests changes every one of those dynamics. DDO is no longer too easy, players opt to play other quests instead of trying to take on familiar ones that are now very challenging, players opt to group more often in order to take on harder challenges.

My personal opinion is that Normal should have the current Hard difficulty, Hard should have the current Elite difficulty, and Elite should be bumped another notch or two.

Of course, all of our opinions are only that and the indications from the developers are that there is no plan to change. However, I have serious doubts that making a change would lead to any significant loss of players and it might actually have the opposite effect since part of the enjoyment in games like DDO is the challenge.

[Baktiotha]

A Challenge difficulty set up to Challenge the very best should NOT be given extra rewards because:
1) That makes it a required difficulty for everyone to try and reach whether they want to or not, whether they can cope with it or not!
and
2) The Loot given in it would invariably invalidate it over time as people got more and more of it!

Hmm, you just described Elite. I think this is the best argument in favor of increasing the difficulty at all levels. Normal should be for normal players, Hard should be for those who are better than normal but not yet elite, Elite should be for elite players. It is brilliant. Some other posters should have suggested that already. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately in the current game Elite is for normal players and Normal and Hard seldom get played.

In my experience the only exception is Epic Hard which is the solo default because it offers more XP than normal but without the time sink of elite. But, in group play it is all elite all the time.

So why exactly create a Challenge difficulty when Elite is normal and the other two difficulties (mostly) don't matter? I don't see much logic in that.

Oh, BTW, for characters at L30 the one thing that drives them is loot. XP and challenge are well behind (with XP often not a factor at all).

[Baktiotha]

I think it also worth commenting on favor. Favor rewards are mostly obsolete. I go multiple lives without ever intentionally completing a favor reward. Favor is a system that badly needs an overhaul.

[Chai]

You know full well that's not what I said!

I am advocating for a specific difficulty setting completely separate from N/H/E for Completionists and those on Maxed out Multi-Life Toons who can cope with it!

This would have no bearing on Elite whatsoever!

The argument about Favour and Elite was specifically aimed at the insistence by some people on making Elite more difficult!

These are two completely separate arguments that by conflating you are deliberately and blatantly twisting my words!


A Challenge difficulty set up to Challenge the very best should NOT be given extra rewards because:
1) That makes it a required difficulty for everyone to try and reach whether they want to or not, whether they can cope with it or not!
and
2) The Loot given in it would invariably invalidate it over time as people got more and more of it!

Challenge should be there for Challenge Sake alone - If people WANT to be Challenged they'll run it whether there's extra rewards for it or not!

In DDO this is incorrect. To see this, represent the difficulty and requirements of character power to complete, which will show you how higher end gear can and is used in DDO as a carrot, without making it required.

Character Power, Scale from 0-100

Elite takes 75 to be able to complete.
Character power given out in Normal difficulty by gear = 90
Character power given out in Hard difficulty by gear = 92
Character power given out in Normal difficulty by gear = 95

Running quests on normal will easily get you to the point where you can meet the "requirement" to run elite. The upper end gear has all the same stats as on E as it does on N, but E will have a small amount of melee/ranged/spell power added. This is not adding much character power, and certainly is not the difference between being able to complete elite or not, but the fact that it adds even a little more means real power gamers will want it. Even geared in a 99 set, if something at 100 exists, the real power gamer will want it because its one better (queue spinal tap amp goes to 11 analogy here). So for those of us who don't care, because we can already complete elite in our gear sets of 88, we just run what we want. Elite has never been "required" in DDO.

[FranOhmsford]

In DDO this is incorrect. To see this, represent the difficulty and requirements of character power to complete, which will show you how higher end gear can and is used in DDO as a carrot, without making it required.

Character Power, Scale from 0-100

Elite takes 75 to be able to complete.
Character power given out in Normal difficulty by gear = 90
Character power given out in Hard difficulty by gear = 92
Character power given out in Normal difficulty by gear = 95

Running quests on normal will easily get you to the point where you can meet the "requirement" to run elite. The upper end gear has all the same stats as on E as it does on N, but E will have a small amount of melee/ranged/spell power added. This is not adding much character power, and certainly is not the difference between being able to complete elite or not, but the fact that it adds even a little more means real power gamers will want it. Even geared in a 99 set, if something at 100 exists, the real power gamer will want it because its one better (queue spinal tap amp goes to 11 analogy here). So for those of us who don't care, because we can already complete elite in our gear sets of 88, we just run what we want. Elite has never been "required" in DDO.

Pre MotU we had a certain difficulty called EPIC!

It had it's own Loot Rewards that were only usable in EPIC!

By the time MotU came out some people had got whole gearsets filled out with these EPIC items!

EPIC was no longer at all Challenging to these people!

But it WAS Challenging before people started getting Epic Gear in high numbers!

It was still plenty Challenging to those of us who didn't have any or only had one or two Epic items though!

It's literally impossible to make a Challenge difficulty if you then go and hand out gear {or other stuff like Destinies} that invalidates it!


Legendary should have been for Lvl 30s only {or at the very least min lvl 28 to enter} and even then it probably would have been no more difficult at first than Pre MotU Epics when they first came out and with Loot gained from it quickly much less Challenging.
But as it stands we've already got Lvl 20s completing Legendary Elites regularly - Lvl 10s would never have survived Pre MotU Epics without outright piking even if they'd been able to get into them!

[Ebondevil]

Personally I don't touch Epic Elite, I find there's too many mobs, that just hit too hard and have too much health for it to be remotely fun for me. Most epic Quests I will run on Epic Hard as a result.

Heroic I will mostly run on elite, but I find that the newer content (Shadowfell and after) is suffering from the same problem as epic Elite, too many mobs on elite, with too much health and damage for it to be fun for me to enjoy the quests. So I tend not to run them.

There's also an issue with Heroic and Epic quests sharing the first time bonus with the tomes, I'll try to run every quest at least once per life, but the first time bonus dioscourages me from running a lot of quests on Heroic that I plan to run on Epic.

Due to various lag issues and declining interest due to the difficulty and time taken to grind through the Epic quests, I've been playing less and less, my gear is getting more and more outdated and the content seems to be turning into more of a chore than anything else because a vocal group (majority or minority) seem to want more challenge from their quests, that kind of elitism doesn't really cater to the masses unfortunately.

If a higher difficulty adds unique stuff, it feels almost mandatory to run it, if the epeen from completing it isn't enough for you, then why bother with the challenge?

I personally don't find it fun to have to kite constantly to try and avoid getting hit, which doesn't work reliably, for hours on end to kill trash mobs.

[KoobTheProud]

I think it also worth commenting on favor. Favor rewards are mostly obsolete. I go multiple lives without ever intentionally completing a favor reward. Favor is a system that badly needs an overhaul.

Favor rewards aren't obsolete in terms of new players planning to play one life through. They're obsolete in terms of veteran players who have long ago purchased enough inventory and banks slots that they don't need the favor from The Coin Lords and House Kundarak because they have enough slots already each life.

DDO is becoming obsolete because that single life new player is no longer a game worth playing in the grand hamster wheel of progression that DDO has become.

[Qhualor]

Pre MotU we had a certain difficulty called EPIC!

It had it's own Loot Rewards that were only usable in EPIC!

By the time MotU came out some people had got whole gearsets filled out with these EPIC items!

EPIC was no longer at all Challenging to these people!

But it WAS Challenging before people started getting Epic Gear in high numbers!

It was still plenty Challenging to those of us who didn't have any or only had one or two Epic items though!

It's literally impossible to make a Challenge difficulty if you then go and hand out gear {or other stuff like Destinies} that invalidates it!


Legendary should have been for Lvl 30s only {or at the very least min lvl 28 to enter} and even then it probably would have been no more difficult at first than Pre MotU Epics when they first came out and with Loot gained from it quickly much less Challenging.
But as it stands we've already got Lvl 20s completing Legendary Elites regularly - Lvl 10s would never have survived Pre MotU Epics without outright piking even if they'd been able to get into them!

it was not challenging in specific content with specific builds with specific players. back then, it was known that caster classes were having an easier time soloing epics up to the end fights and complained of not having enough power to deal with the bosses. it was known that quests like Carnival were considered easier to play than Sands. back then teamwork and a full group was still highly encouraged. it was still a grind to get the s/s/s to make an epic item and the highly sought out epic items were rare. TOD sets and DT sets/armor was still figured into epic builds until they could make the rare epic gear to replace them. epics were still challenging overall for even the twinked out players. don't forget about the bag trade fiasco that happened for a long time before it got fixed. black market trade made it a lot easier to complete epic gear.

[Ulfo]

I think it also worth commenting on favor. Favor rewards are mostly obsolete. I go multiple lives without ever intentionally completing a favor reward. Favor is a system that badly needs an overhaul.

How access to new content for fresh players can be obsolete, eh? 8)
Favor single meaning - give f2p access to content pack with TP gaining, other "rewards" just primely cherry on a pie.

[Baktiotha]

Favor rewards aren't obsolete in terms of new players planning to play one life through.

No game, as far as I know, is built for the player who comes, plays once start to finish, and never plays again. Every game -- checkers, Monopoly, DDO -- is built with the idea that players will come and play multiple times.

Favor rewards for a one-and-done don't mean anything. They do not help in even the least amount in getting from L1 to L30. Literally everything that can be gotten from favor rewards can be had on gear or bought in the store or from Turbine directly with Yugoloth potions being the only exception -- and they are not needed to go L1 to L30, I know because I've never earned enough Yugo favor to purchase them.

Favor isn't worth getting ever -- at least not intentionally farming. The rewards suck for every player, first ever or veteran. It is an obsolete system and needs a complete overhaul.

[wizdarrick]

Hi forumites,

When the Legendary Raids came out, there was a lot of controversy over whether Legendary Elite was "too much" in some senses. Mob saves are quite hight (particularly fortitude) and their damage is so high that most characters can not stand two hits in a row without healing. Even more, certain mobs, like Sorjek, are 1 shooting non tanky characters.

The general complain is that it favored cheesy approaches instead of providing challenge. For example, instead of needed a maxxed out wizard to be able to overcome spell resistance and saves, moving to shiradi. Or instead of doing melee, using a mechanic or some other good DPS ranged character.

Another issue that was brought up is that the level of damage the mobs put out is so high that it breaks the traditional "marginal differences" approach DDO has. Typically, well built toons must make some choices between defense and offense that result in marginal differences. For example, slotting a quality+insight PRR item, or rather using that for a DPS / utility slot. However, in the current end game, those differences are no longer that relevant. In many scenarios marginal differences do not make or break survivability, since the damage is so high that survivability becomes a step function.

While there was some initial outrage, most people have moved on one way or another and now LE raids are run frequently in organized groups (and good PUGs). To be clear, most random groups cannot complete LE (or even LH sometimes), but strong guilds and groups of players are completing LE just fine. For an example, see this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhr82kRqisc) of a LE shroud (probably the top difficulty in the game) finished in around 30 minutes. Typically the strategy followed involves some good DC, kiting of certain bosses, and generally accepting that you are going to die now and then.

So this is my question: is the level of challenge currently offered by the game acceptable? Is it well designed, that is, designed in a way that is fun to play and uses the abilities of the different toons to its best? Is it hard enough, at top difficulties, to be a noteworthy achievement?

My personal opinion is that it is not. While we still see groups failing (for instance I led to failed LH hounds recently), good guilds / groups regularly complete the content in what can be considered "speed runs". If it can be speed run, it is not a true challenge in my book. I understand that some people might think it is at a good spot: reachable for excellent groups, still not there for strong groups, and impossible for average. That's fine, I just don't share that view. For example, IMHO no spell or ability should be 95% in end game.

Thoughts?

PS- Another issue is that availability of stuff to do at cap, but my understanding is that they are attempting to build that (and would belong to a different discussion).



I have to agree over all with all you said because one thing DND has done is made our characters so strong that everyone has gotten lazy and now everyone just wants to solo everything and do it the easy way instead of teamwork and a challenge. to me that is just way to boring I enjoy a challenge and I really miss working with others and interacting, typing, talking with others that is what makes DND way more fun compared to most MMO games which just solo everything and kill it all by yourself that gets boring after a while. Keep all quests hard that way everyone needs to work together more often keep it up.

[Baktiotha]

How access to new content for fresh players can be obsolete, eh? 8)
Favor single meaning - give f2p access to content pack with TP gaining, other "rewards" just primely cherry on a pie.

Earning Turbine Points isn't favor rewards per se. And, it takes a ton of TP to build up enough to buy new content. I know a lot of people have this theory but I've never encountered anyone whose whole game is still F2P and who has never used real money to buy TP. If people were doing that Turbine would turn off the TP rewards as their whole profit scheme in DDO is based on selling thru the store.

[KoobTheProud]

No game, as far as I know, is built for the player who comes, plays once start to finish, and never plays again. Every game -- checkers, Monopoly, DDO -- is built with the idea that players will come and play multiple times.

Favor rewards for a one-and-done don't mean anything. They do not help in even the least amount in getting from L1 to L30. Literally everything that can be gotten from favor rewards can be had on gear or bought in the store or from Turbine directly with Yugoloth potions being the only exception -- and they are not needed to go L1 to L30, I know because I've never earned enough Yugo favor to purchase them.

Favor isn't worth getting ever -- at least not intentionally farming. The rewards suck for every player, first ever or veteran. It is an obsolete system and needs a complete overhaul.

This is just not true though. For a person coming to DDO to play level 1 to 30 once and then do end game the Coin Lords and House Kundarak favor rewards would be great. Extra inventory and bank bags, what's not to like? Even at end game you're still getting the benefits of favor you earned before level 10 and in a big way that impacts how you play every minute that you're playing.

However the instant you TR or ITR the benefits of that favor have to be re-acquired again in non-optimal XP quests for the most part so the quicker answer for many people is just to buy a few extra inventory and bank slots and be done with that as they get on the hamster wheel for real and start running the same quests every day ad nauseum to begin accumulating the many past lives they will need to build the optimal builds at the end.

The hamster wheel invalidates most favor rewards because it resets them when it spins again and the ways that you re-acquire the favor objectives frequently conflict with the desire to make the wheel spin faster.

The primary problem that DDO has right now is that the game is less interesting than the wheel for many players, however new players coming into the game take a look at the wheel and run screaming into the parking lot, even if they're enjoying some of the content they're doing at the moment. The notion that they're going to have to do it over and over and over and over, and I could just keep using the words over and over for quite a long time, because that's how it looks to any sane person who is trying to evaluate the game from the perspective of haven't played it is it worth playing?

Most MMO's require you to level once and then incrementally run old content at the top level until you get the gear you need and/or it gets old. Then they either release significant new content or they don't and they keep their player base in the former context and they go under in the latter.

Nobody except DDO requires you to run the whole hamster wheel endlessly to acquire power in the game system that will then mostly likely be not challenged at the end after you've acquired it. That paradigm is just crazy to the average player looking in. It only works at all because the little man behind the curtain isn't obvious to many players until they've picked the game up and they make the decision it might be worth going to end game. Then they realize after doing that research what the deal is and they run screaming into the parking lot.

This is something Turbine really needs to fix in a big way or the end of 2017 is going to be something other than a new expansion and a fresh start.

[Spookyaction]

In DDO ranged is optimized to provide attack damage while escaping the brunt of retaliation damage.
aoe trap effects, bursts, debuffs are generally centered on the boss so the ranged is able to skirt these effects and continue to lay down damage.
Few bosses have teleport/ ranged grab effects/ any sort of functional defences vs ranged attacks

In other games when a enemy boss is getting pew pewed by ranged, they activate deflect arrows stances/pop up a shield/take cover/switch to ranged weapons... or otherwise change focus/stance to greatly reducing the incoming ranged damage.
This also opens them up to flank melee damage, increased toe-toe melee damage which encourages a mix of ranged and melee to keep the mob constantly distracted and switching attack modes.. like the pack of wolves and its prey...

I don't think nerfing is required, just better mechanics for bosses to go defensive vs ranged. which should make them susceptible to other attacks..
there should be a cycling of defenses where each type is non-optimal.. caster, melee, ranged.... none of them should give 100% defense, but they should greatly reduce damage by cycling defenses.

I saw the discussion about ranged kiting and thought, what would happen if I took my level 28 moncher with no enhansments back in to the same quest only this time only use handwraps! Well last night I did exactly that. I have 6 ranger lvls on my moncher so improved TWF is a granted feat but is the only melee specific feat on my buid. Still running IC-ranged, IPS and all that good ranged stuff that has zero effect when melee, I ran can completed the dungeon again.

I believe on the highest possible difficulty a toon this gimped should have absolute zero chance of completing. Because the LE difficulty is cakewalk, I can complete even on the gimpiest build.

[Drakos]

What is endgame if not challenging material in which to advance?

I actually vastly prefer the current system where the game starts you at absolute rock bottom with nothing, and points you toward the highest of the high with an assurance that, if you work hard, you actually can make it to the top. I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you. Shouldn't there be an end to the game, a tangible level where you actually can do it all?
I could not agree more...

I've said this for years, even before epic. There should be a point where you have achieved all you can with a character and you move on to the next character. With all the races and classes available there are endless combinations to try.

[PermaBanned]

I could not agree more...

I've said this for years, even before epic. There should be a point where you have achieved all you can with a character and you move on to the next character. With all the races and classes available there are endless combinations to try.

That's part of why some of us like both alts and an "end game" enviroent for those capped/"finished" characters. New high end content gets released, let your big dog out of the stable and go check it out. When exploring the latest addition of "end game" content runs it's course, return to the alt projects.

[Ulfo]

Earning Turbine Points isn't favor rewards per se.

It just fastest way gain TP without real money spend. So, I estimate this issue directly as favor reward per se.


And, it takes a ton of TP to build up enough to buy new content.

Surely, and it's best part. F2p gamers have long term meaning questing again and again and don't leave game because lost interest. Before them always there is hard-hitting in a short space of time, but, nevertheless, an actual purpose - receiving new content. And, the more long they remain in game - the better for population of players and for game in general.


I know a lot of people have this theory but I've never encountered anyone whose whole game is still F2P and who has never used real money to buy TP.

You can see at me. 8P
It not the dry theory, but harsh realities of life. :)


If people were doing that Turbine would turn off the TP rewards as their whole profit scheme in DDO is based on selling thru the store.

Turbine will never do so because sharp, many times, reduction of population of players will be an apparent and inevitable consequence, and the situation will return precisely to that moment when they were compelled to realize the concept of "f2p". And it must be dead end for game. 8)

[Ellihor]

I could not agree more...

I've said this for years, even before epic. There should be a point where you have achieved all you can with a character and you move on to the next character. With all the races and classes available there are endless combinations to try.

On the other hand requiring to do 1-30 again and again is probably one of the main reasons why the retention rate of new players is so bad. TR system is the cancer of DDO.

[Mglaxix]

On the other hand requiring to do 1-30 again and again is probably one of the main reasons why the retention rate of new players is so bad. TR system is the cancer of DDO.

Since when was TR'ing required by DDO.

[Seikojin]

Hi forumites,



When the Legendary Raids came out, there was a lot of controversy over whether Legendary Elite was "too much" in some senses. Mob saves are quite hight (particularly fortitude) and their damage is so high that most characters can not stand two hits in a row without healing. Even more, certain mobs, like Sorjek, are 1 shooting non tanky characters.

The general complain is that it favored cheesy approaches instead of providing challenge. For example, instead of needed a maxxed out wizard to be able to overcome spell resistance and saves, moving to shiradi. Or instead of doing melee, using a mechanic or some other good DPS ranged character.

Another issue that was brought up is that the level of damage the mobs put out is so high that it breaks the traditional "marginal differences" approach DDO has. Typically, well built toons must make some choices between defense and offense that result in marginal differences. For example, slotting a quality+insight PRR item, or rather using that for a DPS / utility slot. However, in the current end game, those differences are no longer that relevant. In many scenarios marginal differences do not make or break survivability, since the damage is so high that survivability becomes a step function.

While there was some initial outrage, most people have moved on one way or another and now LE raids are run frequently in organized groups (and good PUGs). To be clear, most random groups cannot complete LE (or even LH sometimes), but strong guilds and groups of players are completing LE just fine. For an example, see this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhr82kRqisc) of a LE shroud (probably the top difficulty in the game) finished in around 30 minutes. Typically the strategy followed involves some good DC, kiting of certain bosses, and generally accepting that you are going to die now and then.

So this is my question: is the level of challenge currently offered by the game acceptable? Is it well designed, that is, designed in a way that is fun to play and uses the abilities of the different toons to its best? Is it hard enough, at top difficulties, to be a noteworthy achievement?

My personal opinion is that it is not. While we still see groups failing (for instance I led to failed LH hounds recently), good guilds / groups regularly complete the content in what can be considered "speed runs". If it can be speed run, it is not a true challenge in my book. I understand that some people might think it is at a good spot: reachable for excellent groups, still not there for strong groups, and impossible for average. That's fine, I just don't share that view. For example, IMHO no spell or ability should be 95% in end game.

Thoughts?

PS- Another issue is that availability of stuff to do at cap, but my understanding is that they are attempting to build that (and would belong to a different discussion).

I completely agree that difficulty should be a topic touched on now and again; a while after it has been out. Your above example with legendary content is it was griped about, and then when the smoke settled, players started adapting and overcoming.

I honestly feel difficulty could get a bump up, but not in the current form. I think named mobs need more oomph to them. Similar to champion. Some named mob tailored package to give them a reason to be named. They already have the champion system, so a per mob package of abilities can be done. They could have it be whatever (aoe attacks every X hits, ranged aoes, spells, etc.), have a large array tagged by mobs unique name, 100% chance to proc the abilities, and boom, done.

I also would like wilderness to have champs too. Or maybe these named crowns. And raids. I am sure if a level cap increase somehow gets reintroduced, then it would be more viable, but I think those are good ways to add flavor and difficulty without such broad strokes as rebuilding mobs.

I liked the idea of reaper mode too.

[Lynnabel]

I could not agree more...

I've said this for years, even before epic. There should be a point where you have achieved all you can with a character and you move on to the next character. With all the races and classes available there are endless combinations to try.

To me, at least, endgame implies an end of game. I'm thankful DDO has one of the longest games between start and end - triple completionist takes much more time than any other game takes to get from 1 to cap. I vastly prefer the current system above any other MMO leveling system, as there are ways to gauge progress without detracting from the fun aspect.

[Wizza]

To me, at least, endgame implies an end of game. I'm thankful DDO has one of the longest games between start and end - triple completionist takes much more time than any other game takes to get from 1 to cap. I vastly prefer the current system above any other MMO leveling system, as there are ways to gauge progress without detracting from the fun aspect.

I'll be a bit off-topic here, excuse me.

First of all, welcome! Glad to see a new face around. I see you are a Content Designer. Are you the one designing the Slave Lord series for the next update?

[Lynnabel]

I'll be a bit off-topic here, excuse me.

First of all, welcome! Glad to see a new face around. I see you are a Content Designer. Are you the one designing the Slave Lord series for the next update?

Nope. I'm just doing tools/systems/bug work and I got to choose my own title, so I chose one that everyone would get wrong so they'd have to talk to me. Most of what I'm doing is work for the actual designers, which means it isn't much fun to talk about.

[Krelar]

Nope. I'm just doing tools/systems/bug work and I got to choose my own title, so I chose one that everyone would get wrong so they'd have to talk to me. Most of what I'm doing is work for the actual designers, which means it isn't much fun to talk about.

So when the developers tell us they can't do something because their current tools don't allow it we can blame you? ;)

[Lynnabel]

So when the developers tell us they can't do something because their current tools don't allow it we can blame you? ;)

With me on the team, hopefully that situation will stop happening to us. I've been playing DDO for, what, six years? Now that I can actually help them out, I've been spending almost all of my time just trying to make their day to day process far less intensive.

Plus, it really streamlines my complaint process. Before I was hired I just sent them anonymous letters in the mail whenever something happened I didn't like. Now I can just hand those letters to the team in person, which really saves on postage.

[Wizza]

Nope. I'm just doing tools/systems/bug work and I got to choose my own title, so I chose one that everyone would get wrong so they'd have to talk to me. Most of what I'm doing is work for the actual designers, which means it isn't much fun to talk about.

You can't make us talk to you!

[Lynnabel]

You can't make us talk to you!

Aw :(

[Ziindarax]

Aw :(

Welcome to the community, Lynnabel. Any chance you're able to comment on the player council forum section? I will be more than delighted to share ideas for improving the game.

[Zakharov]

Hello Lynnabel! I rarely play anymore but check the forums occasionally and had to comment.


What is endgame if not challenging material in which to advance?

I actually vastly prefer the current system where the game starts you at absolute rock bottom with nothing, and points you toward the highest of the high with an assurance that, if you work hard, you actually can make it to the top. I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you. Shouldn't there be an end to the game, a tangible level where you actually can do it all?

What you're describing is a single player game. That kind of static end goal sounds good but does not work in an MMO if you want people to continue playing for long. If you build a "final power level" that remains static over many years, yes some people will enjoy that but a large amount will eventually get bored and quit.

I don't see how having more to improve on would make you feel taunted. That's one of the things I want from an MMO, always more to do.



If you can't ever reach the end, why continue playing the game? I personally happen to think DDO is a lot of fun, which is a lot of why I play. Some of why I play, though, it because I know that my efforts will eventually get me to the end, and I can look back and say that I actually won an online game.

My answer to "what's the point?" posts will always be "because it's fun."

You answered your own question - if you can't ever reach the end, why continue playing the game? "Because it's fun".

So the problem here is different people find different things fun. Here's what I find fun: joining a group of skilled players in a battle against impossible odds and failing over and over and over, but each time altering our tactics and edging closer to victory. Eventually, working in perfect harmony together, we barely survive by the skin of our teeth. That is exhilarating, that is fun!

If I were designing an MMO to be "fun", I'd encourage a repeat of that experience every single day that players log in, forever. Of course since different people find different things fun you have a tough time trying to cater to everyone.



To me, at least, endgame implies an end of game. I'm thankful DDO has one of the longest games between start and end - triple completionist takes much more time than any other game takes to get from 1 to cap. I vastly prefer the current system above any other MMO leveling system, as there are ways to gauge progress without detracting from the fun aspect.

I don't think of the TR system as any sort of "end game". It is a placeholder to keep people busy while you develop actual new content.

"End game" to me means things to do at the level cap. It could be raids, quests, crafting, fishing, whatever other activities that will keep people busy doing something. It isn't really the "end of the game" but just the "end of the leveling based advancement". Different people find different things fun so there should be many different things to do here. For many people "end game" is really just the beginning.

For the record I don't think we ever need to raise the level cap again - there are many ways to advance characters aside from levels.

[Lynnabel]

What you're describing is a single player game. That kind of static end goal sounds good but does not work in an MMO if you want people to continue playing for long. If you build a "final power level" that remains static over many years, yes some people will enjoy that but a large amount will eventually get bored and quit.

What you're describing is called power creep. I think this issue is nuanced beyond what a forum discussion can possibly encapsulate, though, which is why no one MMO has ever solved this problem. DDO is by far the closest, though.


There are many ways to advance characters aside from levels.

Correct. Such is the beauty of a game with difficulty that doesn't actually correspond to character level. I could go on for days about how amazing the metagame of DDO is, though, so I'll save you reading that rant :)

[BigErkyKid]

What you're describing is called power creep. I think this issue is nuanced beyond what a forum discussion can possibly encapsulate, though, which is why no one MMO has ever solved this problem. DDO is by far the closest, though.


You guys cannot possibly believe that. In the last 2-3 years there has been a huge leap in power creep. To the point that large fractions of the game are only good for XP (and a lot not even that), since the challenge at level is gone.

Items have been made obsolete at what pace? Not to speak of the new random loot. I mean named items, that in principle should have been carefully balanced.

There has been a complete failure to provide anything but some more quests to crunch eTRs /TRs.

I'd be curious to known how you guys plan to stabilize end game, if you plan to do that at all. Other players have explained very well how for many years a large variety of raids and quests were relevant and how that's not been at all in the recent past.

So where are we heading?

[cdbd3rd]

With me on the team, hopefully that situation will stop happening to us. I've been playing DDO for, what, six years? Now that I can actually help them out, I've been spending almost all of my time just trying to make their day to day process far less intensive....

http://www.animaatjes.nl/plaatjes/h/handen/animaatjes-handen-04320.gif My turn, my turn! Also off-topic...


So, is there a pre-Lynn' name we'd recognize?

Merlask --> Tolero
Mockduck --> Cordo

Etc...?


(I don't do social media, so dunno if the answer's out there anywhere...) :o

edit: You really *are* new around here. I can usually nudge a fresh Greenis up a notch.) :D

[Gremmlynn]

Yes, you guys have achieved this to a 100%. But sadly this is NOT what I (and perhaps some other end gamers) want.

I don't want to work hard, I want to be challenged. I don't want to run 20 completions of something to grind a reward, I want to fail 19 times and finally manage to score a victory that was almost a failure.

You guys have built a game that is based on grinding (working hard) but not so much on skill (let it be twitch or group based). I don't have to think hard to get to the top level of power in DDO, I just have to sink a lot of time and run my dailies. Then, I will have a toon that can defeat the DC and spell penetrations (not a real skill, a time sink check).So, where would you set the bar for how much skill is needed? That's the problem with that paradigm, it is only attractive to the narrow demographic of customers at or near that skill level. Grind is something nearly everyone is capable of, so grind is the standard. Even games with seemingly the sort of endgame you ask for are basically about grinding out the correct solution for each step of that end game raid (generally using characters with set capabilities).

Skill is something that MMO developers generally do their damnest to design out of their games as it's the thing they aren't in a position to balance and keep everybody happy, regardless of how skillful. If they didn't there would be a lot fewer people playing MMOs as it really wouldn't be much fun for any but the best.

[Gremmlynn]

Again the same argument? The top difficulty should be more rewarding and it is obvious why.

If casual is equally rewarding people would just farm casual for gear and XP and those who took the time to try to beat "elite" would be left behind.Left behind where? The game is just a big hamster wheel, it really doesn't matter where you are on it. Hell, most players don't even have the same starting point and play different amounts of time, with players at all the different points in at at any time one may select, so the whole concept of some being "left behind" is rather silly.

[Gremmlynn]

This is not correct.

I don't even see how it is possible for a person with a 2010 join date to think that their opinion mirrors the perspective of new players. And, I can only speak for myself but the opinion certainly does not mirror those of the established players that I know. And, considering that one of the accounts I play dates to 2006 I encounter a number of established players.

One of the frequent observations on the boards is that DDO is too easy. The observation that players tackle everything on elite and only quest hard or normal after registering their streak exactly mirrors my experience.

Another frequent observation is that a number of quests go unplayed. The reasons are many but one of the most obvious is that they are not needed for XP.

A third frequent observation is that it is difficult to find groups. That is because soloing is so easy that people just don't bother.Which says to do so is a bother in the first place, which is the issue. Basically, it's people saying that grouping is more trouble than it's worth. Which leads me to wonder why so many seem to have a problem with players avoiding that bother that often just gets in the way of actually playing?

[BigErkyKid]

Left behind where? The game is just a big hamster wheel, it really doesn't matter where you are on it. Hell, most players don't even have the same starting point and play different amounts of time, with players at all the different points in at at any time one may select, so the whole concept of some being "left behind" is rather silly.

Left behind in the progression wheel, it is not silly.

For example, lShroud is the top difficulty content in the game right now. It has the highest DCs and the highest damage. Let's say I want to play it on a wizard.

Investing the same amount of time in the game, who do you think will be more successful, the person who a) went for best Xp/min and best drop chance/min (basically ENx20 for some raids) or the person who chose b)always play everything at the highest possible difficulty?

Now some people have sinked massive amounts of time into the game so they get there with whatever method, but it is undeniable that for the longest time the best reward per time spent was NOT playing at challenging difficulties.

So when new content comes out that is balanced on people having all that power, some people are left behind. This is a reality. Maybe you don 't care about LE Shroud, but this is just you.

[Gremmlynn]

Hmm, you just described Elite. I think this is the best argument in favor of increasing the difficulty at all levels. Normal should be for normal players, Hard should be for those who are better than normal but not yet elite, Elite should be for elite players. It is brilliant. Some other posters should have suggested that already. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately in the current game Elite is for normal players and Normal and Hard seldom get played.

In my experience the only exception is Epic Hard which is the solo default because it offers more XP than normal but without the time sink of elite. But, in group play it is all elite all the time.

So why exactly create a Challenge difficulty when Elite is normal and the other two difficulties (mostly) don't matter? I don't see much logic in that.

Oh, BTW, for characters at L30 the one thing that drives them is loot. XP and challenge are well behind (with XP often not a factor at all).Except nearly every player is elite. Just ask them.

The mistake was in naming the hardest difficulty "Elite", as that made it necessary to make it's challenge level on within the capabilities of every self proclaimed "elite" player or risk losing them as a customer. Something like "Insane' would have been a better choice, as those who aren't insane generally know it and those who are generally don't realize they are.

[BigErkyKid]

So, where would you set the bar for how much skill is needed? That's the problem with that paradigm, it is only attractive to the narrow demographic of customers at or near that skill level. Grind is something nearly everyone is capable of, so grind is the standard. Even games with seemingly the sort of endgame you ask for are basically about grinding out the correct solution for each step of that end game raid (generally using characters with set capabilities).

Skill is something that MMO developers generally do their damnest to design out of their games as it's the thing they aren't in a position to balance and keep everybody happy, regardless of how skillful. If they didn't there would be a lot fewer people playing MMOs as it really wouldn't be much fun for any but the best.

Multiple difficulty levels, hello? What you say is true ONLY if you focus on a single difficulty level.

The beauty of multiple difficulty levels is that it offers a natural progression as you become more of a veteran.

The problem in DDO is that you become capable of beating the top difficulty too soon. In addition, the top difficulty level is universally so easy that the vast majority of people can beat it in quests and too many can beat it in raids.

I agree though that the game is grindy by design. Because it is far simpler to forget about challenging players and focus on milking their desire for power and loot. What is more difficult, to code something that makes players fail 19/20 times and get the item with certainty or to code drop rates so that they get the item only after playing (in expectation) 20 times?

Clearly coding a grind is easy. How hard is to code an engaging endgame compared to coding some epic past lives?

In addition, it is easy to sell grind bypassers. XP boosts are incredibly prevalent, Otto boxes sell well. If you offer a long grind you can sell plenty of those without saturating the market. However, how many +7 tomes can you sell? A +7 tome is something someone who wants to bypass challenge would buy.

So they monetize the grind, which is reliable revenue at low investment cost. When Kargon suggested the reincarnation mechanic little did he know that he had created a golden mine for turbine. If it hadn't been for TRs, probably this game would have been discontinued years ago. So instead of relying on TRs forever, how about you now offer an alternative progression system for end gamers? Something based on challenge? And let the grinders grind, and focus on producing challenging stuff at cap. You can please both demographics.

[Gremmlynn]

To me, at least, endgame implies an end of game. I'm thankful DDO has one of the longest games between start and end - triple completionist takes much more time than any other game takes to get from 1 to cap. I vastly prefer the current system above any other MMO leveling system, as there are ways to gauge progress without detracting from the fun aspect.Except triple completionist isn't a requirement. Tring at all isn't for that matter.

Frankly, if it were I would have been gone years ago, as I have zero interest in playing many of the classes the game has and very little interest in, basically, re-rolling a perfectly fun character just to get a, in most cases, very tiny amount of extra power.

[rehakp]

I identify myself with most of what Lynnabel wrote.
But after completionist and epic completionist and some lifes on top of that i personally feel some "boredom" and lack of "appropriate" content in DDO.
Dont get me wrong .. i still think DDO is best MMO for me. But some thinks just could be better.
If i could suggest just ONE thing it would be "achievements". Strong achievement is what i loved in WoW and it did it just excellent. I didnt played DDO in years anymore because there was alot of bad things even achievement system could not counterweight and DDO did them alot better :D
But if i could implement one thing in DDO it would be strong achievement system.
We have TR/ETR that many players just love. And its great idea of DDO. This alone is like some small achievement subsystem in DDO and i bet many players loves it just because of that.
But even that amazing achievement minigame of completionist train has its limits. Many players just ignore it because it feels like alot of grind for something not worh the grind. And some others (me included) who completed the train just realized now there really isnt any new mandatory horizon to be conquered.
Whats nice about completionist (the achievemnt) is its both .. not mandatory to play the game and feels rewarding for the player.
Whats not so nice is that its sort of "onetime" achievemnt and quite hard to get.

But if there would be strong achievemnt system (like i remember from WoW) then even on "engame" there would be literally hudreds of small horizons to conquere.
The beauty of this strong achievemnt system is that its more open to every type of player and not only hardcore elitists who can hunt down triple completionist.
Many small achievements could be fun for everyone even ocasional player.
Achievements like "complete A dungeon without single kill", "complete B boss fight with red alert", "complete butcher path under X time", "complete every sidequest inside dungeon C" etc. etc. You could come with hundreds of them.

"Only" problem is integration of this TECH into game and than script the achievements itself. I know its quite a problem ... but i bet it could be more beneficial for DDO than whole expansion alone.

[slarden]

So, is there a pre-Lynn' name we'd recognize?

Merlask --> Tolero
Mockduck --> Cordo

Etc...?
)

Writing style similar to Turtle lady (not sure of exact forum name), but total speculation. But if people know the person's real life name by knowing forum name I totally get not wanting to disclose it as their are some crazy nasty types out there.

[Tepi]

Problem with having extreme challenge within the core game (IE, stuff people do to level) is that this is an all or nothing game. You *have* to complete the quest, otherwise you get no XP and cannot level. It is not like other PvE based games where a raid can be run over multiple nights (although I assume they could make the technology to do that, there is no way it would fit within the current game style. They'd have to do a series of quests with 1 boss per quest or something.)

That said, I can think of a few ways in which you could get around this limitation, though I personally think a couple of them go against both the spirit and the word of D&D.

1. Have a higher difficulty which rewards only material rewards. (No xp, favor or anything else). Just gear, collectibles, ingredients and whatever else might be available in the content on the "normal" difficulties. You can make the gear a step or two up from the elite loot and so people *could* skip this content, if they were bothered about a challenge or the additional gear.

2. Make certain quests fit the above description. This is one of the options that could work but wouldn't really fit the DDO experience, in my opinion. When you add content to DDO, you cant cut people off from it for not playing a certain way. My number 1 went on the basis of slightly better versions of existing loot, having content and completely new loot behind the wall is as bad to me as having all the content be too easy, except that you're cutting people off. As a solution it would work, though.

3. Add higher challenge optionals that reward high experience and a 2nd/higher chance at certain named items from a quest. I don't really think this would help, as it would only really be a matter of time before gear would nullify the challenge. I remember when the extreme challenge optional in the MOTU flag chain was really hard, now you can aoe it pretty easily. This might be a band-aide fix that would probably be the least increase in manpower, but it would be a time limited thing, as natural when new shinies come out, they will out-date it.

I can think of more solutions although number 1 is my personal favorite, just because it fills a need for challenge without cutting people off from unique rewards or from a section of the XP pool.

I do think that that is the biggest problem game-wide. Our power-level as increase many times over to what power the monsters have. Maybe its time to look at an all over health boost or something just to try and equalize that. I really cant imagine that many people enjoy 20 levels of Diablo style game-play. I certainly don't. Honestly Turbine, the number of creatures you fight at once in newer quests has become ludicrous, in my opinion, and it doesn't really make it challenging except for classes that do not have ready access to aoe (and the lag, I don't ever think I have done Friends in Low Places without lagging like crazy at the end.

I would really like to hear some input on my thoughts, I may be way off the mark, though. (Honestly, I didn't read the whole thread so sorry if I am just repeating what people said! Boy you guys can talk fast!)

[ComicRelief]

This looks a lot like a poem and inspiration struck me, so here is my response.

Why do all games need progression based elements?
Even in ones where it "isn’t quite relevant?"
It's because fun's abstract
But player power can't backtrack
And character stagnation's just inelegant.

But it's clear that the in-game reality
Is designed forward with non-linearity.
The game gives you a choice,
But both sides have a voice
'Cause this endgame is only formality.

The freedom’s a guide rail, not a cage
that the metagame is meant to engage.
If you're not having fun,
with your past lives all done,
Try content you've left back with age.

But seriously though, I'm of the opinion that the answer to every question that starts with "But why?" should be answered with "Because it's fun."

"But why is there a goal to reach for?" "Because it's fun."

Having fun with posts,
While answering the question;
Lynnabel wins thread.

{Nicely done - good on you.}
;)

[Gratch]

Nope. I'm just doing tools/systems/bug work and I got to choose my own title, so I chose one that everyone would get wrong so they'd have to talk to me. Most of what I'm doing is work for the actual designers, which means it isn't much fun to talk about.

Any chance you can make the systemdevs a tool to plop out [illusion] spells faster? I think Steelstar said just a few spells take them as long as an enhancement tree. That seems like a tools/creation issue.

Illusionist Deep Gnome release kind of flopped with the complete lack of DC illusion spells in game (only 2)...

Thanks for stopping by to talk with us.

[Captain_Wizbang]

So this is my question: is the level of challenge currently offered by the game acceptable? Is it well designed, that is, designed in a way that is fun to play and uses the abilities of the different toons to its best? Is it hard enough, at top difficulties, to be a noteworthy achievement?

.

ERK, GREAT thread.

I'll say definitely not.

We don't have end game like we did pre MotU.

Everybody was running the 6 main raids, farming shroud, and really enjoying the challenge and balance (character vs content). MotU gear and TR's DESTROYED that balance. And this game lost over half the player base because of it.

Power creep has been breaking the camels back to the point of where we are now. The devs have tried to bring some form of balance back, but it's too little too late.

The LE raid scene with all the aforementioned issues is pointless and suckss. As per your points on damage, one shots, and now the stupid "tactic" of kiting. There is no excitement and holy grail to chase, just more "get tweaked toon, find boss and beat down" which I can't stand, and have not been motivated to play hardly at all.

There is no fixing this. And turbine is solely to blame, THEY designed all this power creep and mediocre content.

I am not impressed, and TOTALLY disappointed that this was allowed to occur. I've held out for years hoping it could change. But it hasn't.

There is no point going for "end game" the only real fun left is to start new toons with no gear, not use the vast amount stuff we have hoarded, and not go completionist.

In fact the only challenge left in this game is a perma-death play style

+1 for the thread.

[PermaBanned]

Investing the same amount of time in the game, who do you think will be more successful, the person who a) went for best Xp/min and best drop chance/min (basically ENx20 for some raids) or the person who chose b)always play everything at the highest possible difficulty?Easiest to answer question ever: the more successful player is the one who enjoyed their time the most.

People use to farm Impossible Demands and House of Rusted Blades "until their eyes bleed" and complained about hating every minute of it while making their "shame on you!" posts to Turbine for "forcing" them to do this horrible grindy thing that provided the best (fastest & easiest) XP/min. So they hated it, but hey - they got all their Destinies maxed! At the same time, I was just plodding along through Elite questing, totally enjoying myself while not getting nearly their fast rate of advancement.

So the bleeding eyes XP farmers got more power, but had no fun getting it. I got less power, but had fun getting it. Which would you call more successful? The ones hating their time spent playing a game, or the ones enjoying their time spent playing a game?

[Captain_Wizbang]

So the bedding eyes XP farmers got more power, but had no fun getting it. I got less power, but had fun getting it. Which would you call more successful? The ones hating their time spent playing a game, or the ones enjoying their time spent playing a game?

Im grateful I belong to a guild that still plays to have fun. And most of the members are top-notch players. Ive become the weak link because I got tired of all the issues mentioned in this thread, and stopped playing.

The ONLY DIRECTION that makes sense for future development is to bring the CONTENT in-line with the power creep. STOP developing loot, gear, crafting and concentrate on content. (class updates still need to move forward, but make it the LAST class update till content is reworked.

By content, I mean the quest design and difficulty, not mob damage and defense.

I'm out, thanks. :cool:

[count_spicoli]

I would love to have a great end game where all the power you have accrued over the 8 million lives you did meant something. Sort of premotu but maybe even more challenging. Its becoming more and more apparent that this isn't going to happen as we get further and further from having any kind of decent end game. And no tring is not end game. That is just something to do because there is no end game.

[maddong]

The biggest thing I don't like about the new crafting system is currently any chest can have something possibly worthwhile in it. After the new crafting everything under level 36 (when +16 items show up) is going to be deconstruction fodder.

[nokowi]

Easiest to answer question ever: the more successful player is the one who enjoyed their time the most.

People use to farm Impossible Demands and House of Rusted Blades "until their eyes bleed" and complained about hating every minute of it while making their "shame on you!" posts to Turbine for "forcing" them to do this horrible grindy thing that provided the best (fastest & easiest) XP/min. So they hated it, but hey - they got all their Destinies maxed! At the same time, I was just plodding along through Elite questing, totally enjoying myself while not getting nearly their fast rate of advancement.

So the bedding eyes XP farmers got more power, but had no fun getting it. I got less power, but had fun getting it. Which would you call more successful? The ones hating their time spent playing a game, or the ones enjoying their time spent playing a game?

For some, content is fun when it is challenging.

Have you considered that your "fun" may in fact be boring to those with more skill or stronger builds than you, and that maybe they deserve a place in the game as well?

Instead of telling others how bad their choices are, maybe you could consider those who have sufficient skill to not be able to have the choice to find challenge in the present game.

[slarden]

Easiest to answer question ever: the more successful player is the one who enjoyed their time the most.

People use to farm Impossible Demands and House of Rusted Blades "until their eyes bleed" and complained about hating every minute of it while making their "shame on you!" posts to Turbine for "forcing" them to do this horrible grindy thing that provided the best (fastest & easiest) XP/min. So they hated it, but hey - they got all their Destinies maxed! At the same time, I was just plodding along through Elite questing, totally enjoying myself while not getting nearly their fast rate of advancement.

So the bedding eyes XP farmers got more power, but had no fun getting it. I got less power, but had fun getting it. Which would you call more successful? The ones hating their time spent playing a game, or the ones enjoying their time spent playing a game?

This is way too much rational and logical thinking - it has no place on the forums.

It is amusing that people blame Turbine for their own bad choices as if Turbine forced them to take the less enjoyable path.

[PermaBanned]

For some, content is fun when it is challenging.Completely agree, as I'm one of those some - hence why I was/still do @/below level Elites instead the HoRB/ID farming or daily VoN/King/Spie/Mirror thing.


Have you considered that your "fun" may in fact be boring to those with more skill or stronger builds than you, and that maybe they deserve a place in the game as well?While I'm certain there's better players than me with more powerful characters than me - I'm not sure they (the ones who like a challenge) would call my fun boring (since we have in common defining "fun" as beating a difficult challenge).

I'm really not sure why you'd phrase the question to me that way, given every other post I've made on the subject...


Instead of telling others how bad their choices are, maybe you could consider those who have sufficient skill to not be able to have the choice to find challenge in the present game.Ok, now I'm really really confused, and highly doubting you've any {correct} idea of where I'm coming from here. I am one who does like a challenge, misses the level of challenge the game used to offer, and wants that back. The only folks who I've said are making bad choices are the folks who play a game and don't have fun doing it. You know, the folks who might/claim they'd like to play one way but were "forced by how Turbine rewards questing" to play differently and not enjoy themselves - they're the only ones I've described as doing it wrong.


Like, really man I gotta ask: what in the post you quoted (or any other post I've ever made for that matter) led you to believe I am one who doesn't want a challenge?

[nokowi]

Like, really man I gotta ask: what in the post you quoted (or any other post I've ever made for that matter) led you to believe I am one who doesn't want a challenge?

I think you blamed player choices without recognizing not everyone has the CHOICE to play DDO in a way that is fun for them.

The Reason? Most of the game is made to be soloable by average players on the hardest setting.


The solution players have is to play 1% of content that is challenging over and over again --> which is similar to what you criticized players for by running ID over and over, and which you yourself admit is not fun. The other choice is to not play DDO --> the one I have chosen recently.

[PermaBanned]

I think you blamed player choices without recognizing not everyone has the CHOICE to play DDO in a way that is fun for them.

The Reason? Most of the game is made to be soloable by average players on the hardest setting.


The solution players have is to play 1% of content that is challenging over and over again --> which is similar to what you criticized players for by running ID over and over, and which you yourself admit is not fun. The other choice is to not play DDO --> the one I have chosen recently.

"The solution?" I believe you misspoke there and meant "A solution." Because there are other solutions, for those that want them. And no, I'm not referring to gimping myself by stripping off the gear I e collected and running LE raids solo naked & drunk using only my nose to push buttons (though now that I mention it... ;)). I am referring to choosing to play challenging builds instead of the most OP combo I can create. Sure, I can roll through stuff with ease - and do when I'm in the mood for that - on my many lifer Warlock; or when I feel like tackling something tough I'll bust out one of my alts that's not a many lifer, not a Warlock, and not an OP/FotM build. There are challenges to be had by those that want a challenge.

Now having said that, do I think finding challenge should be the sole responsibility of the player? No. Instead of cheapening the play experience of Elite/highest difficulty content like the Devs have, they should've done a great many things different - but they didn't. While Turbine has allowed us to gain more power & abilities than they can (could but won't) create a challenge for, that's not really the same as saying the game has no challenge in it. The game presents us with the option of becoming more powerful than it is, choosing wether or not to exercise that option is up to us. In my case, I exercised it and rarely play that toon - I mostly play the ones not so powerful that are still interesting... when I play. Like so many others, I'm fading out too - should hardly be surprising to Turbine that by lowering the bar of expectaions they enabled more games to {potentially} become more interesting than DDO...

[slarden]

The Reason? Most of the game is made to be soloable by average players on the hardest setting.


It is hard for me to get my arms around what "average player" and "most of the game" even means, but I see a significant number of people struggling in LH shroud. I see many lfms for EH/LH beyond just the daily spies, von3, wizking xp runs.

At one point Turbine was talking about adding a new extreme difficulty setting with the same rewards as LE. That is about the only way to solve the vet problem because if they introduce more power creep with it - it just becomes of endless cycle of people getting more power and complaining the new setting is too easy.

I would like to see them add more challenges like House C and Eveningstar but instead of capping the CR at 40 or whatever they let it go to 150 or something like ridiculous like that so people can see how high their group can go.

Heroic leveling has become very easy due to power creep, but I am not sure how much I care because my goal with a TR recently is just to get to cap to try out a new build at level 30. Heroic leveling has been easy for me for many many years and the power creep mostly means clearing just a little bit faster.

[BigErkyKid]

I would like to see them add more challenges like House C and Eveningstar but instead of capping the CR at 40 or whatever they let it go to 150 or something like ridiculous like that so people can see how high their group can go.
.

100% behind this. Nowadays when I get to epics I try to level as much as possible in slayers. For me milking XP from quests just destroys the fun in them. If leveling could be done in arenas with increasing challenge I would not set foot in 80% of the quests of the game.

Challenging challenges would be a dream come true.

[nokowi]

It is hard for me to get my arms around what "average player" and "most of the game" even means, but I see a significant number of people struggling in LH shroud.


The hardest quest in the game is not typical. We can start with that.



I see many lfms for EH/LH beyond just the daily spies, von3, wizking xp runs.


Some people have figured out the XP/min is as good on EH as EE.
Some people do multiple ER's and want the first time bonus on hard runs.
Some people simply don't like challenge and EH may be the setting for this.
Some people actually choose to run content on a difficulty appropriate for them.

The fact that you see EH/LH lfms doesn't prove that there is a lack of content for those who want challenge.



At one point Turbine was talking about adding a new extreme difficulty setting with the same rewards as LE. That is about the only way to solve the vet problem because if they introduce more power creep with it - it just becomes of endless cycle of people getting more power and complaining the new setting is too easy.


They can't actually do this without railroading players into a few builds because the game has too many broken mechanics (like saving throws, fortification, etc) that are all or none.



I would like to see them add more challenges like House C and Eveningstar but instead of capping the CR at 40 or whatever they let it go to 150 or something like ridiculous like that so people can see how high their group can go.


I would like to see an endgame that looks like this. You need to separate those who want XP/min or one item from a quest from those who want a good grouping experience and slower, end game progression.





Heroic leveling has become very easy due to power creep, but I am not sure how much I care because my goal with a TR recently is just to get to cap to try out a new build at level 30. Heroic leveling has been easy for me for many many years and the power creep mostly means clearing just a little bit faster.

So the question becomes if you spend more time leveling or at cap. If the answer is leveling, then the majority of your play is not challenging, and "most of the game" by # of quests and time is not challenging.

[nokowi]

"The solution?" I believe you misspoke there and meant "A solution." Because there are other solutions, for those that want them. And no, I'm not referring to gimping myself by stripping off the gear I e collected and running LE raids solo naked & drunk using only my nose to push buttons (though now that I mention it... ;)). I am referring to choosing to play challenging builds instead of the most OP combo I can create. Sure, I can roll through stuff with ease - and do when I'm in the mood for that - on my many lifer Warlock; or when I feel like tackling something tough I'll bust out one of my alts that's not a many lifer, not a Warlock, and not an OP/FotM build. There are challenges to be had by those that want a challenge.


I was challenged in U23 soloing quests on a melee assassin before the rogue pass. (check my links)

Your going to have a hard time convincing me that I play OP builds.


Why can't I be challenged on a non OP build that I enjoy playing? Please tell me what I am doing wrong.

What build do you suggest will be challenging for me if I was soloing EE's before the rogue pass?

[Chai]

I would like to see them add more challenges like House C and Eveningstar but instead of capping the CR at 40 or whatever they let it go to 150 or something like ridiculous like that so people can see how high their group can go.

.

This was suggested a while back, and was filibustered off the forums in small amount of time. Also filibustered off the suggestion list was character scaling akin to most other MMOs (GW2 for instance).

Not only would this solve a lot of the "challenge" issues it would also solve a lot of the grouping issues, as the lower group-able level range issue would also be solved.

[slarden]

I was challenged in U23 soloing quests on a melee assassin before the rogue pass. (check my links)

Your going to have a hard time convincing me that I play OP builds.


Why can't I be challenged on a non OP build that I enjoy playing? Please tell me what I am doing wrong.

What build do you suggest will be challenging for me if I was soloing EE's before the rogue pass?

It's tough playing a melee rogue in the LE Raids.

My assassin can solo all LE quests although fighting oozes kinda sucks due to how crappy my ooze fighting weapon is. I wouldn't say the quests are no challenge to me, but the less risk I take the easier it is. If I am stunned by an umber hulk I am probably dead.

In LE tempest spine my assassin does well enough. Sometimes leading the kill count and sometimes managing to not die (yes I use a throwing weapon in last part against sorjek since party can always handle that part no problem). I tried meleeing Sorjek the whole time for fun once and the result is what you would expect with a reasonably geared but not maxed geared assassin).

In LE shroud part 1 my assassin does well (1 try in PUG - had 1 death in part 1 and 40 kills - all assassinates at the party portal or killing the portal). In parts 2,4 and 5 I just take too much damage from the bosses and once I die a few times I am way too squishy to be useful as a melee. To do well in there I would need to grind for alot of LGS I am not willing to grind for - so I just won't bring my assassin back to LE shroud. I had 13 deaths part 2, 4 and 5 and some was because it was disorganized pug dragging bosses around. But once I have a few death penalties - forget about it.... With more tries and better gear I am sure I could perform better, but I will just leave LE shroud to my other characters.

[nokowi]

It's tough playing a melee rogue in the LE Raids.

My assassin can solo all LE quests although fighting oozes kinda sucks due to how crappy my ooze fighting weapon is. I wouldn't say the quests are no challenge to me, but the less risk I take the easier it is. If I am stunned by an umber hulk I am probably dead.

In LE tempest spine my assassin does well enough. Sometimes leading the kill count and sometimes managing to not die (yes I use a throwing weapon in last part against sorjek since party can always handle that part no problem). I tried meleeing Sorjek the whole time for fun once and the result is what you would expect with a reasonably geared but not maxed geared assassin).

In LE shroud part 1 my assassin does well (1 try in PUG - had 1 death in part 1 and 40 kills - all assassinates at the party portal or killing the portal). In parts 2,4 and 5 I just take too much damage from the bosses and once I die a few times I am way too squishy to be useful as a melee. To do well in there I would need to grind for alot of LGS I am not willing to grind for - so I just won't bring my assassin back to LE shroud. I had 13 deaths part 2, 4 and 5 and some was because it was disorganized pug dragging bosses around. But once I have a few death penalties - forget about it.... With more tries and better gear I am sure I could perform better, but I will just leave LE shroud to my other characters.

LE Sorjek is not a challenge. You either get one-shot or you stand back and range for little DPS. You are not contributing and piking either way. The rest of the quest is a breeze if you are well equipped.

There is one quest in the game that is challenging, and it is LE shroud. To be effective at it you need to run LH shroud to get your LGS items, so that you can run LE shroud for ..... nothing because you already got your items.


Is your expectation that I run LE Shroud once every few days (for rewards I don't need) and logout for the rest of the time?

Why would I continually run LE TS or HoX at cap if I already have a set of armor?


Does this seem like a good "endgame" design? What exactly am I gaining at cap?

[BigErkyKid]

There is one quest in the game that is challenging, and it is LE shroud. To be effective at it you need to run LH shroud to get your LGS items, so that you can run LE shroud for ..... nothing because you already got your items.


That for me one of the big fails in the design. Aside from LGS being super weak sauce. Seriously, scaling heroic GS was too hard?

[nokowi]

That for me one of the big fails in the design. Aside from LGS being super weak sauce. Seriously, scaling heroic GS was too hard?

They simply didn't care about quality or longevity. They had a deadline to meet and put out a poorly designed system. It would be so easy to make the clicky slot something useful and make the content relevant, or offer a trade system to make TS and HoX relevant.

What good is a level 30 feat if I am better off TRing to get experience at the same time as acquiring my gear in the legendary raids?

Dev's haven't figured out that in order to have an endgame, you need to provide something different at cap.

[In_Like_Flynn]

With me on the team, hopefully that situation will stop happening to us. I've been playing DDO for, what, six years? Now that I can actually help them out, I've been spending almost all of my time just trying to make their day to day process far less intensive.

Plus, it really streamlines my complaint process. Before I was hired I just sent them anonymous letters in the mail whenever something happened I didn't like. Now I can just hand those letters to the team in person, which really saves on postage.But still anonymously, of course. :)

[Thrudh]

Dev's haven't figured out that in order to have an endgame, you need to provide something different at cap.

We need the shard/seal/scroll system back.

What made that so good was that the items were spread out among multiple epic quests which were very difficult. Plus only being able to run each quest once a day was actually good because it kept people from burning themselves out farming the same quest.

The quests were difficult, there was a bunch of them, and going for the best loot took time (real time, because of the 1-day lockout). So plenty of us would stick around at cap for a while, and when we got bored, we'd TR.

But most us also had a lot of alts back then too.... If you only have one character, only going for one or two special items, it may not work as well. Back then, I was rather excited about a lot of different loot, because I had a lot of different characters (I still do, but I think many of the vets today are down to one super character).

[nokowi]

We need the shard/seal/scroll system back.

What made that so good was that the items were spread out among multiple epic quests which were very difficult. Plus only being able to run each quest once a day was actually good because it kept people from burning themselves out farming the same quest.

The quests were difficult, there was a bunch of them, and going for the best loot took time (real time, because of the 1-day lockout). So plenty of us would stick around at cap for a while, and when we got bored, we'd TR.

But most us also had a lot of alts back then too.... If you only have one character, only going for one or two special items, it may not work as well. Back then, I was rather excited about a lot of different loot, because I had a lot of different characters (I still do, but I think many of the vets today are down to one super character).

This could work well for level 30 (end game only) play. It doesn't need to be exactly like the old level 20 system, but it needs to offer grouping, replayability, and slower power progression that only applies at level 30. I feel that slow and steady power progression is needed.

Think of acquiring a set item from a given drop rate (3%?), and being able to add 1 MP for every 20 runs of a raid (no raid timers in end game content).

I think of things like min level 30 set items, earning extra AP that can't be spent until level 30, etc.



End Game:
1. grouping
2. replayability
3. separate system from TR crowd (end game players want different things)
4. slow and progressive power (get rid of the current design of running a new quest for 1 item that you want and then not needing the quest again).

As long as the above happen, any implementation that works for devs would be OK with me. If some players don't like this, they can continue to play the current game.

[Ellihor]

That for me one of the big fails in the design. Aside from LGS being super weak sauce. Seriously, scaling heroic GS was too hard?

Yeah right, LSG is weak sauce, that's why everyone is running so much deathwyrm. Forums...

[jalont]

Yeah right, LSG is weak sauce, that's why everyone is running so much deathwyrm. Forums...

Well... no one is running LShroud either. All the good players got everything they needed in the first weekend while the raid was "bugged", and the rest of the playerbase isn't bothering because actually grinding for LGS is actually a loss. LGS is never going to knock enough time off of completion times to be worth the grind. And god knows there'll never be anything difficult where it will be needed.

[Ellihor]

There is one quest in the game that is challenging, and it is LE shroud. To be effective at it you need to run LH shroud to get your LGS items, so that you can run LE shroud for ..... nothing because you already got your items.

I think HoX is way harder than shroud. Shroud just takes more time if you have a lot of bads, but you almost can't wipe if you have 4 goods. On hox if you take too long... behos all arround.

And no, you don't need any shroud material to be effective in LE Shroud, except if you are a DC caster maybe



Is your expectation that I run LE Shroud once every few days (for rewards I don't need) and logout for the rest of the time?
Why would I continually run LE TS or HoX at cap if I already have a set of armor?
Does this seem like a good "endgame" design? What exactly am I gaining at cap?

I have some guildiers on that situation, and every day they log I feel happy and think "nice he hasn't quited yet..."

[Ellihor]

Well... no one is running LShroud either. All the good players got everything they needed in the first weekend while the raid was "bugged", and the rest of the playerbase isn't bothering because actually grinding for LGS is actually a loss. LGS is never going to knock enough time off of completion times to be worth the grind. And god knows there'll never be anything difficult where it will be needed.

I see at least one lfm for EH on Cannith every day, but that was not my point. I just wanted to say that all this talk about LGS being worthless is nonsense. You don't need it, ok, but you also don't need any other raid loot. LGS is the top weapon for everythig except maybe THF because of Riftmaker extra critical profile, and one equipment at least is useful for most builds.

Now about completion times, you are very wrong. If there isn't anyone with vacuum or ender in the party it goes significantly slower in my experience (talking about Shroud, who cares about anything else).

[nokowi]

I think HoX is way harder than shroud. Shroud just takes more time if you have a lot of bads, but you almost can't wipe if you have 4 goods. On hox if you take too long... behos all arround.


You need a couple people that know what to do (and with proper buffs) and HoX is a breeze. PUG's can be a disaster because players can actually make things worse. (let me range that beholder and drag it to mama!)



And no, you don't need any shroud material to be effective in LE Shroud, except if you are a DC caster maybe


You need HP on a melee rogue. 1100 is not enough. Did you read Slarden's comments?

[Ellihor]

You need a couple people that know what to do (and with proper buffs) and HoX is a breeze. PUG's can be a disaster because players can actually make things worse. (let me range that beholder and drag it to mama!)

Still, the chance of wipe is real. Unlike in Shroud.


You need HP on a melee rogue. 1100 is not enough. Did you read Slarden's comments?

Yes. But you also need more than that on a mlee wizard, or on a mlee monk, or any other suboptimal build. You see my point?

[BigErkyKid]

Yes. But you also need more than that on a mlee wizard, or on a mlee monk, or any other suboptimal build. You see my point?

I don't. You are saying that a melee rogue is not optimal?

And I am sorry, but on my melee I see no particular weapon in LGS that I think I must have. Vacuum is nice, but that's about it.

Then for equipment, the effects are only interesting (for me) for the bonus. And I am going without it because I don't want to give up on other stuff ATM, and I will probably want to give up even less when the new crafting comes up.

Please feel free to point out the obvious flaw in my reasoning or some obvious must have in LGS gear for non caster types.

[Ellihor]

I don't. You are saying that a melee rogue is not optimal?

Have you read Slarden's comments? :)


And I am sorry, but on my melee I see no particular weapon in LGS that I think I must have. Vacuum is nice, but that's about it.

Then for equipment, the effects are only interesting (for me) for the bonus. And I am going without it because I don't want to give up on other stuff ATM, and I will probably want to give up even less when the new crafting comes up.

Please feel free to point out the obvious flaw in my reasoning or some obvious must have in LGS gear for non caster types.

The obvious flaw is that you didn't read my posts before replying to them. Show me where I said any of that. Forums....

[slarden]

Still, the chance of wipe is real. Unlike in Shroud.

Yes. But you also need more than that on a mlee wizard, or on a mlee monk, or any other suboptimal build. You see my point?

I wouldn't call the build suboptimal, it does well everywhere in LE content but simply doesn't have the hp/defenses to melee the bosses in part 2, 4 and 5 shroud or Sorjek. Even with flawless aggro management I will still get one-shot and add the randomness of people dragging other bosses right next to me.... Part 2 is the worst for an assassin because the bosses must stay together and if you die a few times you get real squishy.

Some builds thrive in some content and do poorly in others. My assassin does really well in LE tempest spine, but it's throwing weapons for the end fight. My assassin can solo all the LE quests although its not easy on a squishy build when one mistake near an umber hulk could mean certain death.

I am not complaining, simply stating the reality for a well-built well-geared 1200 hp assassin with 120 PRR or so. Both need to be much higher for LE shroud and while it's possible - it's not worth the effort in my opinion. Nokowi summed up the reason nicely - I don't want to farm a quest over 100 times on LH for the sole reason of running the same quest on LE.

[Ellihor]

I wouldn't call the build suboptimal, it does well everywhere in LE content but simply doesn't have the hp/defenses to melee the bosses in part 2, 4 and 5 shroud or Sorjek.

And those are the only situtations where anything matters, so yeah, it's suboptimal. You can work arround it with a bunch of GS for the hp set bonus, but the point is that you could use this argument for any other suboptimal build...

[slarden]

And those are the only situtations where anything matters, so yeah, it's suboptimal. You can work arround it with a bunch of GS for the hp set bonus, but the point is that you could use this argument for any other suboptimal build...

It's one raid and the end fight for Tempest Spine is hardly important when 2-3 ranged and casters can take down Sorjek no problem.

Running LH with an assassin means I acquire ingredients 2/3 as fast LE and I have no problem running LE Tempest Spine despite my inability to melee in the end fight. Since LE runs on Sarlona are rare and the only reason to accquire the ingredients is to run LE - the impact is not a big deal except I am a bit disappointed my assassin won't run LE Shroud.

My assassin did really well in DOJ while my PM didn't. It's reverse in shroud.

[Ellihor]

It's one raid and the end fight for Tempest Spine is hardly important when 2-3 ranged and casters can take down Sorjek no problem.

That is the only situation where anything matters. We always take at least 3 people who are completely piking for our daily LE shroud (some of those are very underlv, some are just bads but we take because they are guildiers, some are using suboptimal builds). Your post doesn't change the fact that rogue mlee is a suboptimal build JUST because of that very raid: you could say the same thing for any TRing lvling framework like a /10 warlock splash: you can solo anything LE on it, contribute on TS blablabala, but still, it is a suboptimal build (CONTEXT of this thread: endgame).


My assassin did really well in DOJ while my PM didn't. It's reverse in shroud.

When DoJ was endgame, pale master was a suboptimal build. It's the reverse now.

[slarden]

That is the only situation where anything matters. We always take at least 3 people who are completely piking for our daily LE shroud (some of those are very underlv, some are just bads but we take because they are guildiers, some are using suboptimal builds). Your post doesn't change the fact that rogue mlee is a suboptimal build JUST because of that very raid: you could say the same thing for any TRing lvling framework like a /10 warlock splash: you can solo anything on it, but still, it is a suboptimal build.



When DoJ was endgame, pale master was a suboptimal build. It's the reverse now.

Alright I see where you are coming from. Fair enough.

[LagMonsterrrrrr]

LGS is garbage if you are a melee.

You just disagree because you just play cheese builds.

Your guild run daily LE shrouds because 3-4 players pull it with cheese builds.

FoRuMs.......

[Ellihor]

LGS is garbage if you are a melee.
You just disagree because you just play cheese builds.
Your guild run daily LE shrouds because 3-4 players pull it with cheese builds.
FoRuMs.......

What you said is not an argument for the statement ("LGS is garbage if you are a mlee"). But of course, you are here only to troll, anyone can see that by going on your profile and looking at your recent posts.

BTW, terrible try on personal attack against my guild. This would work if everyone else wasn't using those builds, but they are, so why aren't they doing LE shroud too?

[BigErkyKid]

The obvious flaw is that you didn't read my posts before replying to them. Show me where I said any of that. Forums....

What? I said LGS is weak sauce for a melee and I stand by it. In general the system does not hold a candle to what heroic GS was. At all.

[Ellihor]

What? I said LGS is weak sauce for a melee and I stand by it. In general the system does not hold a candle to what heroic GS was. At all.

Funny you. See your post again:


Please feel free to point out the obvious flaw in my reasoning or some obvious must have in LGS gear for non caster types.

Now search where have I said that... Oh, suprise, I haven't!


Intresting situation: while you are replying to me saying that I'm wrong because you don't need LGS, other people on this same thread are replying me because they think it's required. OH MY GOD THIS IS SO FUNNY! Serisouly, I'm laughing here. Why you don't argue each other instead? LOL

[BigErkyKid]

Funny you. See your post again:



Now search where have I said that... Oh, suprise, I haven't!


Intresting situation: while you are replying to me saying that I'm wrong because you don't need LGS, other people on this same thread are replying me because they think it's required. OH MY GOD THIS IS SO FUNNY! Serisouly, I'm laughing here. Why you don't argue each other instead? LOL

?

Interesting contribution, please carry on.

[Forzah]

The obvious flaw is that you didn't read my posts before replying to them. Show me where I said any of that. Forums....

You posted this earlier:


Yeah right, LSG is weak sauce, that's why everyone is running so much deathwyrm. Forums...

where your sarcasm implies that LGS is not weak sauce.

[slarden]

What? I said LGS is weak sauce for a melee and I stand by it. In general the system does not hold a candle to what heroic GS was. At all.

I am ok with the benefits, I don't want more OP gear.

My issue is that I used to make a tier 2 boot and it came with a clickie like displacement. Now I have to run 6+ LH runs to make just the displacement clickie or 24+ runs LH to make a radiant forcefield clickie that lasts 22 seconds.

I put + because certain ingredients end up being used more so it's those ingredients that drive when you can make items resulting in more runs.

[Thrudh]

I am curious though... What is good for melee in LGS?

How much more DPS do you get from the weapons over Thunderforged?

I can't see ANY equipment that is worth making on a melee, except possibly a swappable item for skills.

The sets have interesting bonuses, but how can anyone fit them in? You lose more than you gain.

[BigErkyKid]

I am ok with the benefits, I don't want more OP gear.

My issue is that I used to make a tier 2 boot and it came with a clickie like displacement. Now I have to run 6+ LH runs to make just the displacement clickie or 24+ runs LH to make a radiant forcefield clickie that lasts 22 seconds.

I put + because certain ingredients end up being used more so it's those ingredients that drive when you can make items resulting in more runs.

For me it is not about OP or not, rather on how interesting it is. The clickies are an absolute joke, and I haven't seen anything particularly awe inspiring. The lack of slots is precious too, particularly considering that they want to scale the augment system.

You can grind the items just because, but it is very lackluster. Most people are doing it for the set bonuses, not for the items.

The procs on the weapons in hGS used to be able to blast enemies out of the water, right now in high end content how is that working out?

Obviously LGS is much more appealing for casters. Which might proof to be difficult to balance around when the caster passes come (if they do).

[slarden]

For me it is not about OP or not, rather on how interesting it is. The clickies are an absolute joke, and I haven't seen anything particularly awe inspiring. The lack of slots is precious too, particularly considering that they want to scale the augment system.

You can grind the items just because, but it is very lackluster. Most people are doing it for the set bonuses, not for the items.

The procs on the weapons in hGS used to be able to blast enemies out of the water, right now in high end content how is that working out?

Obviously LGS is much more appealing for casters. Which might proof to be difficult to balance around when the caster passes come (if they do).

The chaotic weapons clickie I use for shroud :)

Nightshield clickie is nice and reasonably priced.

[slarden]

I am curious though... What is good for melee in LGS?

How much more DPS do you get from the weapons over Thunderforged?

I can't see ANY equipment that is worth making on a melee, except possibly a swappable item for skills.

The sets have interesting bonuses, but how can anyone fit them in? You lose more than you gain.

The set is really good for builds that don't require much gear - shiradi caster, warlock blaster, barbarian. More hp and crit damage - who is that bad for.

I use mineral repeater on my 9th character. It has a chaotic weapons clickie. He also uses a tier 2 dex skills bracer for more sneak damage and a few hp. Easiest way to get a single shroud weapon that works on every boss well.

[nokowi]

I am curious though... What is good for melee in LGS?

How much more DPS do you get from the weapons over Thunderforged?

I can't see ANY equipment that is worth making on a melee, except possibly a swappable item for skills.

The sets have interesting bonuses, but how can anyone fit them in? You lose more than you gain.

I use Pos III and radiance on melee assassin. The main benefit is the +7 insightful stats (Con & Int/Dex) at level 26, along with the toughness from that 1000 HP proc. If you include time to self heal on a rogue, I would say this combo is similar to TF for DPS and better overall due to toughness.

I also used 2 piece HP set without any compromises, and 3 piece set when not assassinating (vs bosses) without any compromises, which let me prevent one shots from most all mobs but Sorjek. If I was still playing DDO, I probably would have a few instances where I equipped a 4 or 5 piece set (with compromises).

[Ellihor]

You posted this earlier:

where your sarcasm implies that LGS is not weak sauce.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. And the fact that you are quoting this is exactly why I feel so tired to discuss with people here on the forums: you can't just say anything, they extrapolate everything you say and start inventing magical statements. They also don't seem to understand the concept of more or less, or statistics, and a bunch of other things, but that's not luxury of DDO forums, most people everywhere are like that (I'm not talking about you, please don't take this personally).

I hope you understand there is a HUGE difference between saying something is "must have" or "required" and saying something is the "best in slot".

[Ellihor]

I am curious though... What is good for melee in LGS?

How much more DPS do you get from the weapons over Thunderforged?

I can't see ANY equipment that is worth making on a melee, except possibly a swappable item for skills.

The sets have interesting bonuses, but how can anyone fit them in? You lose more than you gain.

Actually, I'm curious about the opposite: why people say LGS is not good and why do they like TF so much? What in TF is so good for a mlee? TF was a thing when it was the only source of vulnerability, armor bypassing and had mortal fear. Now all that is gone. The vulnerability of TF is a joke, you need FORTY seconds to stack it max, while LGS on first second it's on max. The dragon's edge is cool but now there are many sources of 20-27% armor bypassing. Tier 3 bonuses are a joke compared to LGS: freeze proc, temp hp proc, blind proc, acid dot, and the vacuum. Also it's probably going to cover an important +7 stat. LGS also has more base damage, so, I ask you, what's in TF that you even think about it?

[BigErkyKid]

Actually, I'm curious about the opposite: why people say LGS is not good and why do they like TF so much? What in TF is so good for a mlee? TF was a thing when it was the only source of vulnerability, armor bypassing and had mortal fear. Now all that is gone. The vulnerability of TF is a joke, you need FORTY seconds to stack it max, while LGS on first second it's on max. The dragon's edge is cool but now there are many sources of 20-27% armor bypassing. Tier 3 bonuses are a joke compared to LGS: freeze proc, temp hp proc, blind proc, acid dot, and the vacuum. Also it's probably going to cover an important +7 stat. LGS also has more base damage, so, I ask you, what's in TF that you even think about it?

- Augments: people like to slot stuff into weapons. Arguably a lot of augments are outdated, but this might change.

- Armor piercing: it is by no means easy to slot. 35% is still the maximum achievable, and the only thing that comes close are the new boots, which might a slot needed say for tactics boots. Fort bypass is very important.

- Metalline: you can bypass anything with TF easily by just slotting an augment into it, since it is metalline. This is becoming more important nowadays since mob DR has increased.

And more importantly, we already have them. lShroud is, for me, not a exciting raid. It is too close to the heroic version to be fresh.

The weapons are not exciting in that non of the effects seem to be something that will hold water over time. When TF came out, a lot of the effects where new and exciting, and it was very clearly an upgrade over previous weapons. Now with LGS, vacuum is nice but none of it is oh wow I must have it. I am doing just fine with TF everywhere.

Also there are talks of upcoming new systems for weapons, and I feel lShroud weapons will be the first to go down. I don't want to invest in a system that doesn't seem to be staying much longer.

[Ellihor]

- Augments
- Armor piercing
- Metalline

I value that. The result is that TF is that weapon you swap to when you can't get the DR. You need metalline only for Harry and Sorjek these days (not even Harry if you take pierce silver). For that you can just have a tier 2. Or you can make a min. Also that is irrelevant for ranged, because you can buy the ammo with specific metals.

[Vanhooger]

I was expecting a lot more from LGS as many of you, but saying that LGS are not worth crafting is indeed a statement from people who didn't bother grind them and don't know they're powers.
TF nowdays is only a swap weapon for metalline and armor piercing (sometimes on bosses), that's about it.

I was reading that post where a rogue was oneshotted on p2 of shroud in a PUG...well that is normal. That's supposed to be END GAME raid where you need a decent party with role and people that knows what to do, and a pug 99% of the time isn't like that.
If you had one or 2 decent tank you don't even have to heal yourself. Bosses running crazy here and there it's just because most people wasn't ready for that probably. The only one its a bit of a pain cos it's stupid random aggro is the devil.

As well legendary ice is a really good one for extra cc in LE raids but since now (at least on cannith) I probably was the only one using it, and this is just an example. People has to stop thinking max dps only.

You need to build defense as well in order to say alive in LE raids, period.

[BigErkyKid]

I value that. The result is that TF is that weapon you swap to when you can't get the DR. You need metalline only for Harry and Sorjek these days (not even Harry if you take pierce silver). For that you can just have a tier 2.

Sure, you can get some upgrade with LGS, I don't think anyone denied that. But is the upgrade worth the effort? Not for me. That TF still has a place is obvious (from your own admission), now I don't grind for whatever extra power the LGS weapon would give me because I don't give a darn. It will only make my number higher in certain occasions, but will not give me anything cool.

For what is worth, for questing I even use the toee freezing scimie. Because it gives me some visible cool effect, something that most LGS weapons do not.

Another example is the HP bonus set. It is useful, but boring. Plus it eats away slots that could have important stuff.

Once you add that lShroud is not filled with exciting mechanics (for my taste), this means that LGS is weak sauce for me.

[Chai]

Actually, I'm curious about the opposite: why people say LGS is not good and why do they like TF so much? What in TF is so good for a mlee? TF was a thing when it was the only source of vulnerability, armor bypassing and had mortal fear. Now all that is gone. The vulnerability of TF is a joke, you need FORTY seconds to stack it max, while LGS on first second it's on max. The dragon's edge is cool but now there are many sources of 20-27% armor bypassing. Tier 3 bonuses are a joke compared to LGS: freeze proc, temp hp proc, blind proc, acid dot, and the vacuum. Also it's probably going to cover an important +7 stat. LGS also has more base damage, so, I ask you, what's in TF that you even think about it?

Every TF weapon is a boss beater for 90+% of the mobs that need DR breakage, with metalline and a slot to put an alignment gem into if needed.

To get that out of a GS weapon you have to screw up a set bonus, take a less meaningful set bonus, or not count that item in the set bonus.

While I do believe that those who say eGS is useless are miring their position in a quagmire of hyperbole, it is less useful than hGS was for instance, when it came out. The main reason why heroic shroud was still run 4+ years after release was the longevity of the items. Even if not BiS, some of that stuff had high utility value (heck some of it still does).

[slarden]

Every TF weapon is a boss beater for 90+% of the mobs that need DR breakage, with metalline and a slot to put an alignment gem into if needed.

To get that out of a GS weapon you have to screw up a set bonus, take a less meaningful set bonus, or not count that item in the set bonus.

While I do believe that those who say eGS is useless are miring their position in a quagmire of hyperbole, it is less useful than hGS was for instance, when it came out. The main reason why heroic shroud was still run 4+ years after release was the longevity of the items. Even if not BiS, some of that stuff had high utility value (heck some of it still does).

What I don't understand is why the same people complaining about power creep are also complaining about LGS not being powerful enough. I see alot of lshroud runs so it obviously has some value. The lack of implement bonus and augment slots are problematic for sure. There should be 2 augment slots and an implement bonus, but even with those defects I still use it. I made my mechanic a mineral crossbow with a chaotic weapons clicky. It works well for me.

[Ellihor]

Sure, you can get some upgrade with LGS, I don't think anyone denied that. But is the upgrade worth the effort? Not for me. That TF still has a place is obvious (from your own admission), now I don't grind for whatever extra power the LGS weapon would give me because I don't give a darn.

The situation of LGS is not that different from Heroic gs when the cap was 20. You swaped it out only when you didn't break the DR so you used that +5 holy [metal] of X bane. While if you already have a bunch of material for TF it can look useless to you, I belive most people who doesn't already have and the people who started playing since U31 will never see a tier 3 thunder forged on their hands. At least in my personal case, I don't look forward to craft any new TF above tier 2 (and those I do only because I already have a bunch of the unbound material, but I only have 30 of each phlogistons spare).

That said, when the cap was 20, there were many other options you could use over GS, like ESoS, EChaos Blade, EAGA, EThornlord, Unwavering Ardency and probably some others I forgot. The LGS is in a not very different situation and I think it's balanced. Now if you wanted it to be as OP as when GS was released, you would be betraying your OP because that would make endgame even more easy.


It will only make my number higher in certain occasions, but will not give me anything cool.

If the tier 3 effects are not cool enough for you, I wonder what you were excepting? Probably some big DPS proc, because you seem to be one of these people who only know DPS given your other threads

[Ellihor]

Then I don't really understand why you posted what you initially posted: you could have expected the reaction that you got.

I don't have Nokowi's patience to fill in 20+ pages in the forums to make this kind of people concede points they were holding with their teeth because they don't understand the game.

[Thrudh]

Do Shroud WEAPONS count as a part of a set?

Because I thought it was just wearable items.

[slarden]

Do Shroud WEAPONS count as a part of a set?

Because I thought it was just wearable items.

No, it just gets a bonus for tier 3 if crafted properly. For example triple positive gives 1000 temp hp every minute which is both unique and useful.