Cannith Crafting More Info + Recap

[NoWorries]

To help with the questions and to get everything back into one place, here is a consolidation thread with some additional info. On a big system like this, not all information will be available yet as we are discussing the system while the work is ongoing.

Cannith Crafting Recipe Experience

The 50% success mark will now be 15 levels below the recipe as opposed to the 10 levels it is currently.
To go along with that, players will now be able to craft recipes they have at least 1% chance of success, instead of being limited to 50% and above.

These two changes should allow a bit more flexibility in what they are trying to craft.

Trinkets

The current plan for trinkets is to allow any of the non-damaging scaling effects to take the place of the Prefix and Suffix. Any of the non-damaging insightful scaling effects can go into the Extra slot. It is still being decided on what special (non-scaling effects will go on trinkets and where)

Runearms

Don't have further information on this time, addressing that here as I know it will be a question. Information will be provided as we get to further direction on that point. It is mainly a matter of decided how to adjust the runearms to work with the new system and which effects they will get to craft.

Flex Shards

The plan is to not launch with flex shards. We think there is a good balance that can be found between Random, Named, Crafted loot and flex shards will knock some of that out of the way. The Cannith system will be a bit different from before and some of the power and versatility is tough to see without getting your hands on the system.

Artificer/Mark of Making bonuses

These will still apply as they do currently and players are still restricted to the level cap (so these abilities will not push a character above the 400 level mark)


Other Things (not directly Cannith, but do affect Cannith)

DR breakers

We are looking into adding DR breaking into good/evil/etc. That would be a retroactive change that would most likely take effect on existing items as well as items going forward, same would apply to the effects from Cannith. When this is added back in, the negative level for using alignment based DR breakers you don't match with will also be added back in.

Attributes

There has been talk about attributes being too low at lower levels. That is a scale that we can look at and tinker with, which would also change items that exist with these scaling effects and would change what came out of Cannith crafting as well.


And as always, anything and everything is subject to change for any number of reasons.

[NoWorries]

All items created with old Cannith Crafting will remain as is when the new system goes in. However, all of the old recipes will be gone at that time.


Single School

Cannith will be down to a single school - currently know as... Cannith!
The school will have a level cap of 400, and all XP will carry over from the original 3 schools.
The lower levels of the school have had their xp curve adjusted. Here are some XP values for getting to different levels in the new school (could change before launch)


Level 50: 1,256
Level 100: 7,313
Level 150: 30,151
Level 260: 245,580 <- where current maxed out crafters will end up.
Level 340: 472,752
Level 400: 650,040


Crafting Difficulty

Minimum Level shards will be their level x 10 for their crafting difficulty (which the exception of ML 1 which will be difficulty 1). Unbound versions will be their level x 10 + 50.


Example:
ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 200 difficulty
Unbound ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 250 difficulty


The plan is to divide the scaling effects from random loot into 3 crafting groups.


The lowest group would be difficulty 1, the second group would be difficulty 50, and the final group would be difficulty 100.
Unbound would be +150 so 150, 200, 250
Insightful would be +175 so 175, 225, 275
which means unbound insightful would be 325, 375, 425


Since non scaling effects also don't have insightful versions, they will fall in different places along the crafting curve. The above is for the normal scaling effects only.


Crafting Groups for Scaling Effects:

Group 1:
Guards
False Life
Wizardry
Enchantment Resist
Illusion Resist
Poison Ward
Disease Ward
Will Save
Reflex Save
Fortitude Save
Damage Resistances (fire, acid, cold, etc.)
Skills
Fortification
Incite
Diversion


Group 2 (50):
Negative/Repair/Healing Amp
Absorptions
Parrying
Dodge Bonus
Accuracy
Deadly
Seeker
Shield Bashing
Armor-Piercing
Spell Focuses
Tendon Slice
Vertigo
Stunning
Shatter
Stat Poisons
Spell Pen
Spell Powers
Weapon Damages
Creature Banes


Group 3(100):
Attributes
Spell Saves
Resistance
Riposte
Sheltering
Doublestrike
Doubleshot
Assassinate
Combat Mastery
Melee/Ranged Alacrity
Potency
Weapon Crit Damages
Weapon DRs (good, evil etc)
Spell Lores
Vampirism


Natural Armor is considered insightful so it would show up in the first insightful tier.


Exclusive Effects:

Below is a list of effects exclusive to both Random loot and Cannith crafting. Note: This does not include clickies.

Random:
Vorpal
Speed
Paralyzing
UMD boost
Banishing
Disruption
Smiting
Destruction
Ghostbane (being readded into the random loot system)


Cannith:
Metalline
Alligned
Everbright
Blueshine
Ghost Touch
Invulnerability
Vengeful
Unbalancing
Twilight
Lesser Arcane Spell Dexterity
Songblade
Slowburst/Improved Slowburst
Regeneration
Persuasion
Fearsome
Silver Flame/Sacred/Eternal Faith
Efficient Metamagic
Blindness Immunity
True Seeing


Consideration is being made of adding Good Luck into random loot and having it be craftable. Same goes with Shattermantle. UWA will likely be added to random loot.


Single Essence

There will be a single essence going forward, no lesser or greater, just a single essence. The exchange rate will be 1 greater to 1 of the new essence or 5 to 1 Lesser to new essence.

The new essence will stack to at least 10,000.


Removers

There will be a singular remover which will award a range of essences based on the ML of the item being deconstructed. We are also looking into Mass Deconstruction, so there is a possibility of an even better system such as a deconstruct all. We are not at the point to say how possible this will be yet.


Disjunction will still exist and will prep the item for new Cannith crafting (items previously disjuncted with the old system would need to have disjunction applied again to set them up to be used with the new system).


Collectables

Collectables will be used in all the crafting recipes. Existing collectables will be used, but to help fill out the range of collectables, new ones will be created that drop in the higher levels and drop in both FR and Eberron. Exactly which collectables and how many per recipe is still being designed.

Purified Dragon Shards will still be used as well.

We are creating a scaling treasure system for collectables. The tiers will be broken down into 5 level ranges and the collectable device in a dungeon will automatically check the level of the dungeon and pull from the correct tier. So if you were to run a level 5 quest on normal, you'd get the level 1-5 tier collectables, if you ran it on hard, you'd get the 6-10 tier collectables. And if you were to run those on epic difficulty, you'd get the higher tiers as well. We will be adding collectables to FR as well, with the Eberron related lore ones removed (so no Soarwood for example).

[NoWorries]

Power of Cannith Crafting

Random Loot has a normal range of effect powers that can drop at a given minimum level. Then there is an extra lucky range of slightly more power. This is marked by having Masterful Craftsmanship on the item which indicates at least one of your effects is at the maximum of the normal range or slightly higher.


The plan is to have Cannith Crafting be the top of the normal random loot range. It is important to us to have a system where Cannith Crafted, Random, and Named Loot is all usable by players. We do not want a system where Cannith overshadows Random loot making it not a true consideration to be used. By holding onto the Masterful Craftsmanship lucky power ranges on Random Loot, it should help Random Loot continue to have a use.


Random Loot chests can go as high as level 40. Cannith Crafting is currently planned to top out at Level 34 Loot. There will be increasingly better Minimum Level 30 shards to be crafted (the recipe an item will state what loot level it represents).


Although Cannith will follow the slot restrictions of effects that Random Loot has, a player does get to choose which effects go on the slots of the item. This is a big advantage of random loot where you have to luck out in the RNG to get all of the effects you want at the powers you want. The system will still have a Prefix and Suffix. If a Mark of House Cannith is used, it will have a 3rd extra effect just like Random Loot.


Finally, there is a chance that some of the clickies that no longer drop in Random Loot could be added to Cannith in some form.


How will it Work

The current plan is that a blank item will have the minimum level crafted onto the item. Then effect shards will be crafted on which will automatically get their power set to the right amount for the minimum level. No longer will you need Strength +1 and Strength +3 shards, just a Strength shard and the power will be set for you. This is a cleaner system as there is no advantage to the player to putting on a lower powered effect at a given ML, and it reduces ways a player may mess up an item.


The + Enhancement value will also be directly tied into the minimum level and there will no longer be Shards of Potential.

Combined with the fewer number of Essences, this system should be much more streamlined to use.

Deconstructing is very time consuming and clunky at this point in time. We know this. The problem is what the crafting system is capable of doing. We don't know to what amount we can alleviate this pain, but it is something we will be looking into as we move forward with updating Cannith Crafting.


Other Considerations

Why not allow Cannith to put effects in any slot? In the new loot system, Named Items main advantages are that they don't have to follow the slot restriction for effects and get the Quality bonus type for effects. If Cannith also ignores the slot restrictions it takes a way a big aspect of what makes Named Loot special and goes a long way to making Random Loot useless.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

I think a lot of people don't like the "no flexible shards" change.

But other than that it is looking like a pretty good system.

In particular, as far as effects that are too low at low levels.........FORTIFICATION. PLEASE look at this.

[JOTMON]

1. Flexible crafting?... or are we going to be stuck with limited choice options.. like Charisma limited to neck, cloaks, rings.. when I want to build it onto bracers..
Custom crafting isn't very custom when we are limited to the same slots as the randmgen drops..

2. Bag deposit box stack sizes.. they suck.. and need to be increased dramatically.. 100,000+.... would hope to see this increased to 1 mil...
Especially if you want me to spend real money to expand it.. I end up having to empty my bag deposit box into my gargantuan and colossal bags when it should be the other way..
also please fix the stack sizes.. things like the inspired quarter shards don't stack.. at all.. in the bag deposit box because it is based ion inventory stack size , but do in my bags...

3. Potion/wand/scroll crafting.. with increasing level tiers and even higher UMD tiers to use for non-aligned classes..

4. Mass deconstruction.. a fast deconstruction system..

5. I disagree with 3rd effect crafting being available from Cannith crafting.. I believe that should be innately part of the randomgen drops and only found on randomgens..deconstruct the randomgen and the 3rd slot sticks.. like the augment slots...
...so essentially I would have said you cant craft insightful.. that comes from the found gear... you can deconstruct the found gear and build around the insightful.. but you cant craft it..

[Eldried]

Sounds promising!

Could you tell us what level 34 loot means exactly? Whats the best ability score(attribute) you could get with cannith crafting? +15 and 6 insight?

[Krelar]

Sounds promising!

Could you tell us what level 34 loot means exactly? Whats the best ability score(attribute) you could get with cannith crafting? +15 and 6 insight?

This ^ I feel like a lot of us aren't quite sure what the level for different stat values is in the current system. If we had just a couple examples it would help us better judge where things are landing. (So for stats what would be +6, +10, +12, +max? ML's be for example?)

[Nuclear_Elvis]

...Why not allow Cannith to put effects in any slot? In the new loot system, Named Items main advantages are that they don't have to follow the slot restriction for effects and get the Quality bonus type for effects. If Cannith also ignores the slot restrictions it takes a way a big aspect of what makes Named Loot special and goes a long way to making Random Loot useless.

NoWorries, this statement makes a huge Assumption that we the Player Community are accepting the New Loot System as-is and that no changes would be necessary. However, many of us are in disagreement with the Design changes that the Developers made in the New Loot System to isolate Abilities into specific gear by prefix and suffixes, which then further isolates New Cannith Crafting into those same slots.

You are trying to argue that the logic is to preserve Named Items. That's not the argument. The argument is - New Loot System is not acceptable in its rigid format.

We need a re-think on New Loot System, not an after-the-fact justification to uphold the Named Loot Red Herring to convince us that "change is good."

[Aelonwy]

Thank you for finally responding to the DR bug in New Random loot.

Will these issues also be resolved and thus not create problems in future Cannith Crafting:


We are working on some fixes for Spell Focus Mastery for update 32.


We are aware of this issue with Guard effects. The damage dealt should be scaling based on the under the hood power values of the item but currently are instead always outputting the base amount (despite the tooltip of the effects displaying what should be the correct damage values). I'll and let you know when we have any updates on resolving it.


This is an issue that we are aware of. It's not just limited to repeaters but is actually true of scaling damage effects on all ranged weapons which use ammo currently. Off the top of my head, while at home, I don't recall whether it affects thrown weapons but I do not believe it does. Regardless, I'll update you when progress is made in resolving it.

I thought I had read something about handwraps also experiencing the same xd6 damage not scaling but I could not find a quote. Also does anyone know if there is still an issue with using the New Random Loot for replenishing high energy cells for heroic greensteel? Was that resolved?

[Aelonwy]

As far as collectibles go... I would very much like an answer to how changes in collectibles dropping might affect the small/medium/large Eberron Dragonshard Fragments - these and NOT tomes are my go to source for Purified Eberron Dragonshards because tome drops are next to nonexistent for me.

[Aelonwy]

For me the entire Flexibility issue could be resolved by allowing ALL stats Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha, and also fortification but that is a lesser issue, to be crafted on rings. To be fair I'd also be fine with the exact same to drop on random loot thus not requiring flexible shards per se but instead making the New Random loot just this little bit more flexible.

[Greantun]

For me the entire Flexibility issue could be resolved by allowing ALL stats Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha, and also fortification but that is a lesser issue, to be crafted on rings. To be fair I'd also be fine with the exact same to drop on random loot thus not requiring flexible shards per se but instead making the New Random loot just this little bit more flexible.

Though looks like that is what they are going to do with Trinkets


The current plan for trinkets is to allow any of the non-damaging scaling effects to take the place of the Prefix and Suffix. Any of the non-damaging insightful scaling effects can go into the Extra slot. It is still being decided on what special (non-scaling effects will go on trinkets and where)


At least there would be 1 item (maybe 2 if the runearm goes the same way), where you can put any of the things that don't do damage into a trinket. That would be a flexible item then.

[dunklezhan]

So if I want to make a ML10 resistance item with an unbound group 3 effect that will require a crafting level of 150 to do the shard, and then a crafting level of 250 to make an unbound resistance effect? In fact, I could want to make a ML1 resistance item, and that still would require a crafting of 250 to make the unbound resistance effect?

Is that right?

That's going to lead to confusion and frustration if implications not explained fully, I reckon, but it does bring meaning to reaching those higher level crafting levels so that's ok I think.

Clearly need to be thinking "can I make the effect I want" before we think "how powerful an item can I put it on".

Difficult to visualise without getting our hands on it, as NW said.

Edit: I also still think its a mistake that we can't make unbound insightful group threes by virtue of it not being a level that's possible to reach. There are already unique effects between the systems and you've limited the max ML effects - Cannith already therefore suffers in comparative power level despite the resource and time commitment, there's simply no need to also limit the effects common to both.

[dunklezhan]

Finally, there is a chance that some of the clickies that no longer drop in Random Loot could be added to Cannith in some form.


Yes please, I would very much like this.

[btolson]

Other Considerations

Why not allow Cannith to put effects in any slot? In the new loot system, Named Items main advantages are that they don't have to follow the slot restriction for effects and get the Quality bonus type for effects. If Cannith also ignores the slot restrictions it takes a way a big aspect of what makes Named Loot special and goes a long way to making Random Loot useless.

Without the ability to find in-place upgrades while leveling, the bolded part is a very strong Con, not a Pro (the exception being at level cap). Those items just end up being a huge hassle, because they force you to swap your entire gearset around every ~2 levels (on top of being generally difficult to obtain in the first place). Without some other form of flexible gear in the game to allow a seamless upgrade path, named items with effects in non-standard places become essentially useless: too much of a liability to carry around for the brief window where they're actually useful.

[Aelonwy]

Though looks like that is what they are going to do with Trinkets


At least there would be 1 item (maybe 2 if the runearm goes the same way), where you can put any of the things that don't do damage into a trinket. That would be a flexible item then.

I suppose. I only have one real artificier though. But at some point in their adventuring careers most of my alts have needed a particular stat crafted on a ring for at least a few levels because I couldn't fit it in around their other items otherwise.

Augments would be a factor if more of the original named items had been given slots.

As far as trinkets go I'm usually using named items already.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

3. Potion/wand/scroll crafting.. with increasing level tiers and even higher UMD tiers to use for non-aligned classes..


I know it won't make it in for this update, but THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE AWESOME.

Just something to keep in mind. Crafting consumables like pots etc is a staple of most games crafting.

[Franghasea]

Greetings!

It is highly disappointing that flexible shards are not going to be a part of this system. The versatility of Cannith Crafting has always been a prominent feature. With time, effort, and money invested in the process, I still believe that we should be able to craft according to the previous flexibility standards.

DDO's foundation has always been about choices. With this new system, choices are intentionally being removed. Players are now being forced to look for random gear if they want their character to be optimized. Some people don't enjoy Cannith Crafting and some people don't enjoy the quest for random gear. I have yet to find exactly what I am looking for with random gear at a given moment and have to settle for one beneficial effect and one non-beneficial effect, leaving me dissatisfied and somewhat frustrated.

I struggle to understand how adding an additional 140 levels/400k xp to spend time, effort, and money on would not STILL include flexible shards. Give players another choice to make. Those who choose to invest time and effort in Cannith Crafting should have the option to optimize their gear. Those who don't do this will have still have the choice of random and named loot to complete their TR life or final build.

Aside from the important issue above, the Cannith Crafting system improvements seem very well thought out to provide players a more efficient and viable choice for gearing once again.

In closing I ask that flexible shards continue to be included as the cornerstone of Cannith Crafting. Thank you for taking to the time to read this, and for continuing to create and maintain a world that I enjoy spending my game time in.

Franghasea

[Ykt]

2. Bag deposit box stack sizes.. they suck.. and need to be increased dramatically.. 100,000+.... would hope to see this increased to 1 mil...
Especially if you want me to spend real money to expand it.. I end up having to empty my bag deposit box into my gargantuan and colossal bags when it should be the other way..
also please fix the stack sizes.. things like the inspired quarter shards don't stack.. at all.. in the bag deposit box because it is based ion inventory stack size , but do in my bags...



I agree that something needs to be done, but what happens if the Inspired Quarter shards stack up to 100 in the deposit box, and only 1 in your inventory? You click the stack in the deposit box and you end up with an inventory full of shards.

[Arkantios]

Greetings!

It is highly disappointing that flexible shards are not going to be a part of this system. The versatility of Cannith Crafting has always been a prominent feature. With time, effort, and money invested in the process, I still believe that we should be able to craft according to the previous flexibility standards.

DDO's foundation has always been about choices. With this new system, choices are intentionally being removed. Players are now being forced to look for random gear if they want their character to be optimized. Some people don't enjoy Cannith Crafting and some people don't enjoy the quest for random gear. I have yet to find exactly what I am looking for with random gear at a given moment and have to settle for one beneficial effect and one non-beneficial effect, leaving me dissatisfied and somewhat frustrated.

I struggle to understand how adding an additional 140 levels/400k xp to spend time, effort, and money on would not STILL include flexible shards. Give players another choice to make. Those who choose to invest time and effort in Cannith Crafting should have the option to optimize their gear. Those who don't do this will have still have the choice of random and named loot to complete their TR life or final build.

Aside from the important issue above, the Cannith Crafting system improvements seem very well thought out to provide players a more efficient and viable choice for gearing once again.

In closing I ask that flexible shards continue to be included as the cornerstone of Cannith Crafting. Thank you for taking to the time to read this, and for continuing to create and maintain a world that I enjoy spending my game time in.

Franghasea


Yes, please keep the innate flexibility of Cannith Crafting within the system.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

You are really KILLING one of the FUNDAMENTAL BEST THINGS about Cannith Crafting........FLEXIBILITY.

If the new random loot was coded in a way that doesn't allow you to make CC have flexible shards.......that is ANOTHER HUGE FAIL of the new loot.

If the coding for the new random loot does allow flexible shards, it is a HUGE FAIL for the design of cannith crafting.

Either way......fail.

[searcher15]

1. Will the crafted shard still be bound to account and possible to pass to via crafting storage?

2. Will the effects in group have differing crafting levels?
E.g. Strenght is lv 101, Resistance is lv 102 and so on. Or everything in group 3 is lv 100?

3. Can we please get a Lammania preview at least a week before, to decide if to use our essences before or after update? How will levelling look like in the new system?


I'm worried about the current state of loot system - we have crazy powerfull random loot items with +15 and more to ability, but no slots to put them in, because they are taken by shiny named items. Whats worse, there's zero named items with +ability on them that can beat or even come close to current random loot. (LGS doesn't count because it's a "mere" +15 and takes a weapon slot, when you can find a genloot accessory with +15 or more on it.)
We used to be able to fit any ability/skill onto rings - please bring that back. As a wizard wearing the new named items in 2 usual "int" slots, I'm down to replacing my Dragon cloak with "mundane" genloot cloak with +14 int on it (provided I can even find one first).


The planned crating levels look kinda insane to casual crafter like me. If you're at xp cap right now, you will be able to craft a whooping lv 26 item. Then even more grind to reach lv 30 items. I'm afraid that with my mere 90/80/80 in craft, I won't be able to craft anything of use and have to spend months gathering materials to level up. In old system I could at least make some normal power items. What about players that are totally new to the system? Do they have to burn through ton of essences before being able to make anything useful at all?
It seems the "crafting system" is actually an item levelling system.

On other side, it seems that most of the stuff will be possible to craft unbound, so we just need one friendly high level crafter that we can buy our items from. It raises the question of "why bother crating" - it will be all available in ah and pretty much indistinguishable from genloot..

[Meriadeuc]

I notice that protection/ricocheting doesn't appear on any of the lists. Are there any plans for it to be available through the new Cannith crafting?

[ComicRelief]

1) I don't see "bane" damage anywhere. Does that mean it's gone (not listed as an exclusive 'random loot' effect) or only drops on random loot? Or maybe listed under a different name that I don't recognize? (Seeing as how "ghost touch" was specifically mentioned as an exclusive Cannith crafting effect and "ghostbane" specifically mentioned as an exclusive random loot effect I'm assuming no "bane" in Cannith crafting at all...which is a bit disappointing.)

2) It's a little disheartening (to me) that we won't be able to craft banishing, disrupting, or smiting weapons. Was really hoping might be able to craft (for example) a metalline-smiting or aligned-smiting weapon. (And w/o bane, there'll be no 'smiting of construct bane', etc.)

3) Not part of Cannith crafting, but I'm curious if any of the (lower level) named weapons, specifically, might be getting an update pass? Some of them fall woefully behind random loot, even with the addition of augment slots. Other (lower level) named items (armors, shields, etc) are not nearly as 'obsolete' as some (low-ish level) named weapons.

Overall, I am looking forward to seeing the new crafting in action (so to speak). And at least we get blueshine and everbright.
;)

[Aerinsma]

I'm very disappointed with the decision not to allow flexible shards. Flexibility and the ability to make the item you want is the reason why I've sent so much time and money leveling crafting. Maybe if you allowed the mark of making to give flexibility or the third slot to an item you wouldn't feel so bad about letting it in.

If that won't work at least allow all stats to appear on rings, and make sure they can all appear in at least two other places. I, like many others, was very disappointed by the lack of flexibility in the new loot tables, but I thought I could just use crafting to cover the deficiencies.

Oddly enough your excuse of keeping named loot's ability special, is rather ironic. The main reason that I want flexible shards is because I have some well loved named items that take up certain spaces on my character. If these spaces are the only ones for the effects I want, then the named items will have to go, making them less valuable to me, not more.

[zehnvhex]

Any chance we could just get rid of % chances to fail and lose components? This may have made sense back in 2008 or whatever when games still had terrible mechanics like that but these days it's just a pointless frustration. There's no skill involved, no interesting gameplay mechanic, no strategy. It's just an arbitrary Nelson moment "HAW HAW". If it's about removing resources from the economy then just up the requirement for manufacturing by a little bit and call it a day.

I mean does anyone find that kind of 'risk' enjoyable? There's no challenge involved. You just go out and farm 10 widgets instead of 7 in case it fails and if it fails 3 times in a row for some reason and you blow all your widgets you say screw this game and go play something else. In the -entire- history of crafting in games where failure was something that could occur it only gave me pants pooing terror once, and that was my Coldain Shawl back in EverQuest and even back then most people agreed it was dumb and would just spam customer service until Sony gave in and restored the items for them if the combine failed.

How about instead of a chance to fail, you add a chance for the combine to not consume resources? A critical success let's say. You keep the chance low enough (3% or so) that when it happens it's a nice surprise and nobody banks on it.

That to me sounds like fun rewarding gameplay instead of a stomp on ye olde gonads.

in before "lol entitled everybody gets a trophy back in my day go back to WoW blah blah blah"

[SirShen]

Power of Cannith Crafting

Random Loot has a normal range of effect powers that can drop at a given minimum level. Then there is an extra lucky range of slightly more power. This is marked by having Masterful Craftsmanship on the item which indicates at least one of your effects is at the maximum of the normal range or slightly higher.


The plan is to have Cannith Crafting be the top of the normal random loot range. It is important to us to have a system where Cannith Crafted, Random, and Named Loot is all usable by players. We do not want a system where Cannith overshadows Random loot making it not a true consideration to be used. By holding onto the Masterful Craftsmanship lucky power ranges on Random Loot, it should help Random Loot continue to have a use.


Random Loot chests can go as high as level 40. Cannith Crafting is currently planned to top out at Level 34 Loot. There will be increasingly better Minimum Level 30 shards to be crafted (the recipe an item will state what loot level it represents).


Although Cannith will follow the slot restrictions of effects that Random Loot has, a player does get to choose which effects go on the slots of the item. This is a big advantage of random loot where you have to luck out in the RNG to get all of the effects you want at the powers you want. The system will still have a Prefix and Suffix. If a Mark of House Cannith is used, it will have a 3rd extra effect just like Random Loot.


Finally, there is a chance that some of the clickies that no longer drop in Random Loot could be added to Cannith in some form.



HA HA you are going to base cannith crafting on random loot. O well then it going to be useless just like most of the random loot is. The only random loot items i use are those with states, all weapons are next to useless because it has caster stuff on it. All this hard work you are doing to make a system even more useless then it was before. Very very disappointed.

[Pipboy2K]

i dont see the problem of multiple item deconstruction...
you already reduce the number of essences to 1, so why not just add another attribute (as in database attribute) to any random drop or crafted items which reflects the "scrap-worth" of the item.
then, reuse the trader interface you already use for general/scroll/potion/hireling traders, and instead of coins (silver/gold/plat) we get cannith essences in the form of a currency derived from the scrap-worth(and make people skill repair skill for it instead of haggle :D )
no inventory problem for us players because of big fat stacks, no duping maybe?, and we can use the (in my opinion) superfast, multiple item selling interface....
now, if you respond with: "how are we supposed to sell them on the auction house?".... make the traders sell scrap-items of different sizes (like xp stones) which are auctionable, payed with cannith-essence currency.
lots of reusing old, but well functioning code, thats how we pros do it :P

edit: add the same attribute to all the old essence types, so we can fast sell them too! (5 for greater, 1 for lesser)

[NoWorries]

As far as collectibles go... I would very much like an answer to how changes in collectibles dropping might affect the small/medium/large Eberron Dragonshard Fragments - these and NOT tomes are my go to source for Purified Eberron Dragonshards because tome drops are next to nonexistent for me.

They will drop as they do now, but only in Eberron content.



Edit: I also still think its a mistake that we can't make unbound insightful group threes by virtue of it not being a level that's possible to reach. There are already unique effects between the systems and you've limited the max ML effects - Cannith already therefore suffers in comparative power level despite the resource and time commitment, there's simply no need to also limit the effects common to both.

You can make those, just not at 100% success.



1. Will the crafted shard still be bound to account and possible to pass to via crafting storage?

2. Will the effects in group have differing crafting levels?
E.g. Strenght is lv 101, Resistance is lv 102 and so on. Or everything in group 3 is lv 100?

3. Can we please get a Lammania preview at least a week before, to decide if to use our essences before or after update? How will levelling look like in the new system?



The planned crating levels look kinda insane to casual crafter like me. If you're at xp cap right now, you will be able to craft a whooping lv 26 item. Then even more grind to reach lv 30 items. I'm afraid that with my mere 90/80/80 in craft, I won't be able to craft anything of use and have to spend months gathering materials to level up. In old system I could at least make some normal power items. What about players that are totally new to the system? Do they have to burn through ton of essences before being able to make anything useful at all?
It seems the "crafting system" is actually an item levelling system.

On other side, it seems that most of the stuff will be possible to craft unbound, so we just need one friendly high level crafter that we can buy our items from. It raises the question of "why bother crating" - it will be all available in ah and pretty much indistinguishable from genloot..

1. Yes
2. All the same level
3. I'm sure as soon as it is in good enough shape to be used, we will setup a Lammania for players to get their hands on it.

Old Cannith Crafting went to level 20, only had 2 effects, and didn't have insightful.

If you are maxed, you switch over on day 1 to crafting ML 26, being able to put 3 effects on, and to have Insightful effects. Players gain power just from the change. Also, with this system, any effect you can craft is useful, as it autoscales with ML (or for non-scaling effects, it is the max it can be). So yes, you will be crafting useful things.



1) I don't see "bane" damage anywhere. Does that mean it's gone (not listed as an exclusive 'random loot' effect) or only drops on random loot? Or maybe listed under a different name that I don't recognize? (Seeing as how "ghost touch" was specifically mentioned as an exclusive Cannith crafting effect and "ghostbane" specifically mentioned as an exclusive random loot effect I'm assuming no "bane" in Cannith crafting at all...which is a bit disappointing.)



Listed at the bottom of Group 2

[Cantor]

It seems the biggest point of contention is loss of flexible shards. I love using them, but I totally understand why they are not bringing them back. With flexible shards every slot is the same. It removes thinking about your gearing, which is bad.

[Gratch]

Deconstructing is very time consuming and clunky at this point in time. We know this. The problem is what the crafting system is capable of doing. We don't know to what amount we can alleviate this pain, but it is something we will be looking into as we move forward with updating Cannith Crafting.


I had assumed going to one essence level and one school was so you could change deconstruction to be at the minimum a trade window sized set of boxes and we could mulch junk 10+ at a time into essences. In that case feel free to put whatever animation you want on the smasher/deconstructor.

Though you'd need a different button for disjuncting and deconstruction as opposed to the current popup menu asking. Or two different stations.

I'm fine relinquishing all control over what essence types we get from an item as long as I can CRUSH'EM'ALL (at once).

Or a hybrid approach. Leave the current lag deconstructor of grindiness for those who need to disjunct or pick specific essence types one item at a time. Add a separate mass-deconstructor that gives half the total essences for both suffix and prefix attribute of all items flagged as junk in ones inventory.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

It seems the biggest point of contention is loss of flexible shards. I love using them, but I totally understand why they are not bringing them back. With flexible shards every slot is the same. It removes thinking about your gearing, which is bad.

It is not just Flexible Shards, it is the fundamental way the Design of the New Loot System was implemented in the first place, to remove flexibility of more variety in the way Abilities and Skills could be found across the wider range of random loots. Cart vs horse issue, and the horse is New Loot System, and many of us find that horse to be "broken" regardless the semantics on whether it's WAI or not. The New Loot System is not agreed upon by the Player Community, and - arguments like yours are a bit skewed because many of us are "thinking about our gear" more than you realize (which in your test, would make it "good" instead). In fact, we're thinking so much about our gear that we come in here to see yet another post by a Dev without acknowledging this issue (while fielding softball questions otherwise), and that is something players like you should actually categorize as "bad." I highly suggest you stop worrying about the "thinking level" of the Player Community, as there's no XP for you in that.

[SilkofDrasnia]

No flexible shards limiting what you can put where is BLEH!

[Astoroth]

Random Loot has a normal range of effect powers that can drop at a given minimum level. Then there is an extra lucky range of slightly more power. This is marked by having Masterful Craftsmanship on the item which indicates at least one of your effects is at the maximum of the normal range or slightly higher.

The plan is to have Cannith Crafting be the top of the normal random loot range. It is important to us to have a system where Cannith Crafted, Random, and Named Loot is all usable by players. We do not want a system where Cannith overshadows Random loot making it not a true consideration to be used. By holding onto the Masterful Craftsmanship lucky power ranges on Random Loot, it should help Random Loot continue to have a use.

You just seem oblivious to the fact that lucky loot is about all people keep from your new random loot, 99.99% of random loot is sold deconstructed or not even taken out the chest. Making cannith crafting worse than random loot will always make cannith crafting less desirable in the long run. Maybe not immediately but in the long run if you can find better items in random loot that's what you'll end up with.



Although Cannith will follow the slot restrictions of effects that Random Loot has, a player does get to choose which effects go on the slots of the item. This is a big advantage of random loot where you have to luck out in the RNG to get all of the effects you want at the powers you want. The system will still have a Prefix and Suffix. If a Mark of House Cannith is used, it will have a 3rd extra effect just like Random Loot.

Why not allow Cannith to put effects in any slot? In the new loot system, Named Items main advantages are that they don't have to follow the slot restriction for effects and get the Quality bonus type for effects. If Cannith also ignores the slot restrictions it takes a way a big aspect of what makes Named Loot special and goes a long way to making Random Loot useless.

You just seem oblivious to the fact that if people can get lucky loot that is a higher value, people will always keep the random loot especially if you cant get stats that aren't normally in those locations. If you aren't making it as good as random loot you need to make it so it's at least flexible. Making cannith crafting worse than random will always make cannith crafting less desirable.

[ComicRelief]

*snip*
Listed at the bottom of Group 2

Ah - so it is. Thanks!

Guess I need to wash my glasses...wait - I don't wear glasses (anymore).
;)

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Ah - so it is. Thanks!

Guess I need to wash my glasses...wait - I don't wear glasses (anymore).
;)

Then maybe you should start again *g*

[Gremmlynn]

Any chance we could just get rid of % chances to fail and lose components? This may have made sense back in 2008 or whatever when games still had terrible mechanics like that but these days it's just a pointless frustration. There's no skill involved, no interesting gameplay mechanic, no strategy. It's just an arbitrary Nelson moment "HAW HAW". If it's about removing resources from the economy then just up the requirement for manufacturing by a little bit and call it a day.

I mean does anyone find that kind of 'risk' enjoyable? There's no challenge involved. You just go out and farm 10 widgets instead of 7 in case it fails and if it fails 3 times in a row for some reason and you blow all your widgets you say screw this game and go play something else. In the -entire- history of crafting in games where failure was something that could occur it only gave me pants pooing terror once, and that was my Coldain Shawl back in EverQuest and even back then most people agreed it was dumb and would just spam customer service until Sony gave in and restored the items for them if the combine failed.

How about instead of a chance to fail, you add a chance for the combine to not consume resources? A critical success let's say. You keep the chance low enough (3% or so) that when it happens it's a nice surprise and nobody banks on it.

That to me sounds like fun rewarding gameplay instead of a stomp on ye olde gonads.

in before "lol entitled everybody gets a trophy back in my day go back to WoW blah blah blah"It actually makes sense, as the only time there is a chance to fail is when crafting above one's crafting level. Really the only logical way to take failure out would be to cap what one could make to their crafting level. Don't like failure, don't try to make shards above your listed ability. The chance to fail is a player choice.

As for taking components out, well that would remove much of the time sink that makes taking the time to code a crafting system worthwhile for Turbine.

[EllisDee37]

Losing flexible shards is fine. I mean, it hurts, but I totally understand the reasoning. I wouldn't go so far as to say I agree with the reasoning, but pretty close, actually.

However, not being able to craft SPEED is a very poor design decision.

Leaving SPEED uncraftable will noticeably hurt my interest in and anticipation of the new crafting system. I haven't actually logged into the game in months, but cannith crafting was going to pull me back in. Without speed items, I won't be able to craft up "perfect" BTA gearsets for TR leveling. And doing that exact thing (crafting perfect, complete gearsets) is what I was getting excited to do. Without speed, my gearsets will have a big ol' hole in them. So they won't be perfect. So what's the point, y'know? I could log in right now and craft perfect gearsets minus deadly and speed. But incomplete gearsets that must be filled in with lootgen don't just not interest me, they actively discourage me from bothering. Just getting deadly but not getting speed, the new system won't end up being all that much different. I'll still be actively discouraged by needing to win lootgen lotteries. So I may not even bother at all.


It is not just Flexible Shards, it is the fundamental way the Design of the New Loot System was implemented in the first place, to remove flexibility of more variety in the way Abilities and Skills could be found across the wider range of random loots.The flexibility and variety of lootgen was a problem that needed fixing, IMO. When I started playing in 2011, and for years after that, lootgen had limited slots for stats and skills. Strength only came on bracers, gloves, belts and rings, for example. And Jumping only came on boots, belts and rings.

Lootgen was then changed, and all of a sudden slotting went out the window. Seemingly anything went anywhere. For my money, this was much less interesting and engaging. Then lootgen was changed again, to what we have now, where we're back to limited slotting. To me this is a welcome correction.

You seem to prefer the "anything anywhere" school of thought. That was a very short-lived feature of lootgen. For most of DDO's history, lootgen slotting has been very limited.

[Faltout]

2. All the same level
You're serious now? So for 50 crafting levels all you will have to craft will be the same level of shards?

You must be aware that with the previous system leveling was a breeze because you made 3 shards of a level 9 higher than yours and you gained a level. Then you made 3 shards of 1 level higher and so on. Now you'll make shards 0 to 20 levels less than yours with declining xp? Meaning that when you're between levels 50 and 100 (around 70), it'll take hundreds of level 50 shards to level? How are you planning to ease the leveling process and not make it a painful grind?

[Faltout]

Flex Shards

The plan is to not launch with flex shards. We think there is a good balance that can be found between Random, Named, Crafted loot and flex shards will knock some of that out of the way. The Cannith system will be a bit different from before and some of the power and versatility is tough to see without getting your hands on the system.
So you haven't considered the option to make flexible shards but using a lower power range than the max non-lucky. Because that would make cannith flexible with the drawback that you lose power for flexibility.

[Faltout]

Any chance we could just get rid of % chances to fail and lose components? This may have made sense back in 2008 or whatever when games still had terrible mechanics like that but these days it's just a pointless frustration. There's no skill involved, no interesting gameplay mechanic, no strategy.
You're wrong. There is strategy involved and is tied to the question:
"Which shard should I make next to level my crafting?"
Make the low percentage shard with more xp or make the high percentage shard with less xp?
There used to be another factor: Make the shard with higher percentage because I have more of that essence and less of the other?
Usually the strategy was "1. Use large piles of essences before small piles. 2. Make the shards with the lowest chance of success. 3. Don't make the same shard for more than 1 crafting level."

[Faltout]

You just seem oblivious to the fact that lucky loot is about all people keep from your new random loot, 99.99% of random loot is sold deconstructed or not even taken out the chest. Making cannith crafting worse than random loot will always make cannith crafting less desirable in the long run. Maybe not immediately but in the long run if you can find better items in random loot that's what you'll end up with.
I don't know ONE person or seen ONE screenshot of an item anywhere (game, forums, auction house) that is truly a lucky random loot.
Let me define what is the LUCKY loot:
It's an item that has:
1. A 3rd effect on it
2. All 3 effects are relevant to your build
3. All 3 effects are in the masterful craftsmanship range
4. All 3 effects are at the max value of the range.

Those are the items that are better than cannith crafting. And they don't exist to my knowledge. Besides, even if they existed people would not be able to distinguish them from simple masterful craftsmanship items because noone knows what the max value of the lucky range is at each level.

[Mithis]

I genuinely do not understand the logic of keeping Speed as random gen only. Everyone has it so you are not limiting access by keeping in Random Gen.

(Plus if it gets a player like EllisDee, who has contributed so such to the community, back into the game I say add it to Cannith Crafting)

Throw us a bone here devs...little concessions like making speed part of CC have no impact on overall player power but have a big impact on dev/player relations. It makes us feel like you are making the game for us rather than for you.

[TitusOvid]

Removing flexible shards from the system takes away a big chunk of awesome from that system. Considering you have to work hard to get to that point in crafting pre-new system why not make it hard in the new system and stay with it?

2 questions:
1) how will augment slots effect the min lvl? same as now?

2) is it possible to change the min lvl of a crafted item AFTER i put an effect on it?

As I understand it, determing min lvl is the number 1 step in the new crafting. And if I craft a scaling effect on that item it will be automatocally scaled. Will it be possible to increase that min lvl without crafting a whole new item?
Nowadays I craft an item for low lvl and put 1 effect on it, so that I can later increase the potential and craft a 2nd effect on it. That possibility should still be possible after the overhaul.
That would mean ofc, that a scaling effect would scale higher after I increased then min lvl.

[Ballyspringer]

"It is important to us to have a system where Cannith Crafted, Random, and Named Loot is all usable by players."



Umm - if cannith is no longer flexible and has to follow all of the same rules as random for slot restrictions for stats/whatnot, it doesn't have the same top lucky stats as random items can get, but still takes years to level up in for it to be useful in anything but heroics (which who needs much to get through heroics anymore and anyone who says that grinding this much for a reward that's only OP in heroic levels is crazy) - how exactly does Cannith fit in with random and named loot? You can say all you want well you get the combo you really want without having to hunt for it, ya sorry to me that's not worth the grind of years to do to get to what the new max levels will be when in that case you've probably already found it on the AH, or in a drop, or from a friend which will also have better stats on it than what you can make for your end level toon since cannith isn't as good as random for lvl 30's and it has the same exact restrictions for what can go where. Flexible/being able to put whatever stat you want in any item was the last carrot making this worthwhile to do in my opinion. Otherwise without it named/raid is even harder to use and fit into your gear set ups since you could have to give up a key stat for your character to do so with the current rigid stat placement system that named doesn't follow.

~disappointed current max level crafter

[RD2play]

...
2 questions:
1) how will augment slots effect the min lvl? same as now?

2) is it possible to change the min lvl of a crafted item AFTER i put an effect on it?
...

1) They will not, only the slotted augment will have an effect on AML

2) NO, you put on ML first then apply your effects shards. To make a lower or higher ML item you will have to make one from scratch.

[TitusOvid]

2) NO, you put on ML first then apply your effects shards. To make a lower or higher ML item you will have to make one from scratch.

Consider a change here. Thank you.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

Can you elaborate on whether the decision to not have flexible shards is a design decision or a system limitation with the new random loot?

[RD2play]

...
Flex Shards

The plan is to not launch with flex shards. We think there is a good balance that can be found between Random, Named, Crafted loot and flex shards will knock some of that out of the way. The Cannith system will be a bit different from before and some of the power and versatility is tough to see without getting your hands on the system.

...

And as always, anything and everything is subject to change for any number of reasons.


Can you elaborate on whether the decision to not have flexible shards is a design decision or a system limitation with the new random loot?

They are not going to launch with Flex, but it is not completely off the table. The Devs first want to see how the new system unfolds without them, then after they might look into it further.

[NoWorries]

You're serious now? So for 50 crafting levels all you will have to craft will be the same level of shards?

You must be aware that with the previous system leveling was a breeze because you made 3 shards of a level 9 higher than yours and you gained a level. Then you made 3 shards of 1 level higher and so on. Now you'll make shards 0 to 20 levels less than yours with declining xp? Meaning that when you're between levels 50 and 100 (around 70), it'll take hundreds of level 50 shards to level? How are you planning to ease the leveling process and not make it a painful grind?

With the changes listed in the OP and the fact that ML shards fill in a lot of the blank spaces.

[TPICKRELL]

With the changes listed in the OP and the fact that ML shards fill in a lot of the blank spaces.

Does shard XP still decline as you make them? If so, I'm struggling to see how the ML shards will be enough to fill the void left by the drastically reduced set of shards (i.e. Str 1/2/3/4/5/6 becomes Str. You really haven't mentioned how the XP works, so we are all shooting in the dark and it doesn't seem to line up based on the previous xp system.

[zehnvhex]

You're wrong. There is strategy involved and is tied to the question:
"Which shard should I make next to level my crafting?"
Make the low percentage shard with more xp or make the high percentage shard with less xp?
There used to be another factor: Make the shard with higher percentage because I have more of that essence and less of the other?
Usually the strategy was "1. Use large piles of essences before small piles. 2. Make the shards with the lowest chance of success. 3. Don't make the same shard for more than 1 crafting level."

All you do is multiply your chance of failure against the xp value for doing the combine and that's your average XP return for doing that combine. Then you find the combine with the least dumb resource requirement with the highest xp value and hammer that until you get a new tier of combines. That's not strategy, that's not compelling gameplay. That's homework.

And if the material requirements are as silly as it is right now that doesn't even enter into it since 99% of the time you're picking the combine that requires the least amount of materials and hammering that. Currently at pretty much every tier in the current system there's usually only one or two combines that doesn't take 50 large essences or something silly.

If you remove the % chance to fail you don't change how crafting is done at all and remove a source of frustration for new players that don't have huge stockpiles of essences (bad luck streak) and can easily replace it with a source of rewarding gameplay (critical success) instead.

I mean it's not a huge deal. I'd rather see Flex Shards remain in and them find a way to do mass deconstruction (ESPECIALLY IF THE UI IS STILL BUGGED AND I HAVE TO RELOAD THE CRAFTING UI EVERY 10 DECONSTRUCTS. ARE YOU LISTENING DEVS?! FIX THAT PLEASE. THANK YOU, I HAVE COOKIES FOR YOU IF YOU DO. I AM SHOUTING BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT.)

Where was I going with this? Oh yeah, there are more important alterations that need making but it's a simply frustration that doesn't need to exist. It does not add to the experience, it does not make it more interesting or exciting in any way. It's not a challenge, it's not strategy. All other things being equal if you have a 50% chance for 200 xp or an 75% chance for 120 xp, you'll always do the 50% chance one because over 100 combines it will yield more xp. Law of averages and all that.

[zehnvhex]

how exactly does Cannith fit in with random and named loot?

Crafting will still be for twinking low level characters and have no business in any sort of high end capacity in it's current or planned format. I don't think there is much they can do about that truth be told.

It would be nice if once you get up to the max level range instead of focusing on making gear, it shifted focus towards making clickies. Let me make a Cannith teleport device that has 100 charges of teleport and has a slightly lower UMD then teleport scrolls. Let me make a Propulsion augment that I can apply to any boots that work like the Cannith Boots of Propulsion. Give me a bracer augment that has a small chance to proc a stacking haste buff for a few seconds. So on and so forth. I can think of no other way really to keep it competitive with named/random loot in terms of time requirements to acquire decent items vs. quality. So I'd rather see it complement end game loot instead of compete for slots.

[Eryhn]

They are not going to launch with Flex, but it is not completely off the table. The Devs first want to see how the new system unfolds without them, then after they might look into it further.

translate:
next update will have named loot with flexible crafting properties, we really would prefer as many players as possible to feel forced to buy that which they might not do if they can achieve the same effects in flexible cannith crafting. we are aware that this annoys a lot of people, as, in order to promote the new pack, we are breaking one of the really cool and universally liked properties of the old cannith crafting - to minimize the chance that some short fused folks quit game over this we decided to throw a bone of a red herring of a *maybe *soon TM.
in half a year when we could do this we will either have forgoten about this or not have the time to implement it, or run into some unsolvable coding issue trying to implement it, but hey then we can say we had the intention to try or say we never really promised we do it or we just silently sit it out.
in any case we are lately of the opinion that we have already managed to alienate all those players that would jump ship over grievances such as this and they already left, thus, it is likely the remaining population will moan and cuss a bit, but stay around no matter what BS design decision we make in accord with sad attempts to monetize or save maintenance costs.

in reply to this trend i would quote cordo's "DO NOT DO THIS", but alas ...

[QueenOfTheHook]

Is there an approximate eta on this update? Are we talking a lot of months or are we getting close (need to figure out how many more lives I have to max out my crafting lvls)?

[elvesunited]

No sign of mobility. One of my favorite things to craft into items.
Granted my mobility ring of electrical absorption with yellow and clear augment slot worn by my tank may be a bit of an exploit.

But speaking of that. How will augment slots mesh with the new system? It seems from what I've read that augment slots will no longer effect minimum level or costs at all. And as such all crafting will fall into the category that much of level 20 item crafting is in now. If you are crafting an item that doesn't have a (clear+yellow,blue,green, and red) slot then you are purposely making a lesser item then you could.

I also see that greater twilight seems to be gone as well. Another blow to armored mages if only the lesser twilight remains.

And no deathblock? I don't craft deathblock often, but on occassion I've had a character with that hole in his gear set up needing to be filled.

It looks like flexibility is being sacrificed in order to add more power to crafting. If you added power and kept flexibility it would overshadow normal loot. Though you could simply reduce the power level of flexible effects compared to non-flexible effects and achieve the same result without removing one of crafting's main benefits.

It seems that you are making even the highest crafting attributes available for unbound if the crafter is good enough. That may open the door for high level crafters to get rich quick. Especially as low level crafting looks like a lot of grind for little reward.

[Xgya]

You just seem oblivious to the fact that lucky loot is about all people keep from your new random loot, 99.99% of random loot is sold deconstructed or not even taken out the chest. Making cannith crafting worse than random loot will always make cannith crafting less desirable in the long run. Maybe not immediately but in the long run if you can find better items in random loot that's what you'll end up with.


Alright, you ARE right about this much: The BEST pieces of loot will remain named and ultra-rare randomgen loot. This is what it's MEANT to be. (correct me if I'm wrong, NoWorries)
So, farming for items and actually looking at what items do before deconstructing will still be a thing, at least until you can get a maxxed out gearset at all levels for all your characters, something that's more than likely NOT to happen.

Cannith Crafting will allow people and their guilds to flesh out builds, even when they couldn't reach the perfect best set of items. THAT's what Cannith Crafting will be.

I know I'll be maxing out crafting as much as I can, simply because I play with a lot of newbies I introduced to the game (some of which I introduced to gaming in general!) that will LOVE having those items already there and ready to use, while slowly learning to eke out the best items random loot can give them.

Of course, there will be quite a few things for older players in there, things unique to crafting, crafted weapons that don't have caster stats on them...

In conclusion, these items will let people get a bit better numerically.
It mostly increases the floor while doing almost nothing to the max. The max is what the devs use to balance the endgame quests, so no big change there.

[slarden]

I really liked the flex shards, but the difference is with the old gear only a few things were top-tier random loot stats (all main stats, protection, resistance I think and that was about it).

I understand the balance needed and I much prefer that crafted gear will have top tier stats matching a specific level.

But you can give us an example of what level 34 means in terms of #s since we don't see that on our gear.

Is +15 int level 34 or is +16? +6 insightful int? I guess it will be on Lamania now, but level 34 doesn't mean much too me since I don't see the level on my gear.

Thank you for the great work put into this. It looks like a winner based on what you presented so far!

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Crafting will still be for twinking low level characters and have no business in any sort of high end capacity in it's current or planned format. I don't think there is much they can do about that truth be told...

This is an inaccurate assessment of the future, considering NoWorries' post about their current plan. First, you must factor time itself that lends opportunity to loot more and more Random Loots. In my guild of 750+ players, why craft? We can loot Random Loots for better gear to collectively place in our Guild Chests, and players can round out with Auction House purchases and/or Named Items. The logic NoWorries and Dev's are using is to forcibly deny Cannith Crafting from achieving a pinnacle (do I need to say it - like a Troll on a Bridge...). And given that denial, if Random Loots remain on that pinnacle, it only takes time and opportunity to accumulate lots of gear that is "better" - so over time, Cannith Crafting has little to no use for lower levels in contrast to your statement.

The other part of your statement was toward higher level crafting - the Dev's are supposed to make CC viable into higher levels, but see my prior paragraph to logically understand how time and opportunity in questing lessens or nullifies the value in the grind of crafting.

These are really disappointing restrictions, and very odd to see the Dev's taking this stand on limiting Cannith Crafting to a lesser position than Random Loot, unless the bean counters behind them really think that some Revenue will be made in the longer run by selling "something" at the DDO Store. But again, even if you're a Bean Counter at Turbine, see my paragraph prior about Time and Opportunity nullifying the value of this new proposed Cannith Crafting.

So, we either have a leader at Turbine saying "It must be this way" or some Bean Counter saying "Keep it that way so we make revenue." There really isn't a logical explanation otherwise, for Turbine Dev's to be limiting new Cannith Crafting to a lesser position than Random Loot, and denying full Flexibility in the system.

[mikarddo]

You just seem oblivious to the fact that if people can get lucky loot that is a higher value, people will always keep the random loot especially if you cant get stats that aren't normally in those locations. If you aren't making it as good as random loot you need to make it so it's at least flexible. Making cannith crafting worse than random will always make cannith crafting less desirable.

Kindly post 3 random loots you own yourself (doesnt matter if you looted it yourself) that:
- Have 3 effects that go well together
- All 3 effects have a value that is at or above the max value for the non-mc range for that level.
- Have an augment slot
- Is Master Crafted (and thus is lucky)

I have zero such items, dont know anyone that does and dont believe I have ever seen such an item anywhere. If you dont have such items either your point is hypothetical. Claiming such items might appear in the future isnt an argument for the now either.

[Dandonk]

My concerns were and are:

Will lower level items have lower power than currently?
Loss of flexibility.
Lack of high-end "carrots".
Unique effects are mostly meh.
What will happen to challenge gear and rune arms? Loss of masterful will hit these hard.

While there's a promise to look into lowlevel item power and runearms etc, and some of the clickies have been re-thought, there still remains flexibility loss, unique crafting effects that are underwhelming, and nothing to use the huge grind for once you start getting the level 35+ items you want.

I feel that cannith, as proposed, will be by far the lowest power of the three loot types, and that with a huge grind and resource cost.

I see this as a bad thing to happen to cannith crafting. We lose the good TR twink items and flexibility we have, and gain in return a large grind for some mediocre items that will only be interesting until we find something better.

I sincerely hope that you will find a way to add something unique to cannith that will make it worth it. As it stands, it's a nearly pointless use of dev time IMO.

You don't make such a large system change without planning for the longer term. That would be silly. So let's get it done right now, instead of relying on something that may or may not come later. With the time frames on revamps of systems, we may never see another update to Cannith crafting, so let's get it done right from the start.

I understand that I won't see top tier items from CC. I think this is a mistake (the availability of those could be limited by ingredients from raids, timers, and any number of other ways), but I think that CC should at the very least get something else instead to make the grind worth it, even in a couple of years.

My personal idea is consumables adding stacking bonuses to things such as hit, dmg, PRR, MRR, AC, MP, RP, spellpower. This would both add a reason to have crafting, even when the items start to be eclipsed by new and better named loot and a better supply of top end rand gen items, as well as make crafting something you continue to use after making the items you want.

[slarden]

Kindly post 3 random loots you own yourself (doesnt matter if you looted it yourself) that:
- Have 3 effects that go well together
- All 3 effects have a value that is at or above the max value for the non-mc range for that level.
- Have an augment slot
- Is Master Crafted (and thus is lucky)

I have zero such items, dont know anyone that does and dont believe I have ever seen such an item anywhere. If you dont have such items either your point is hypothetical. Claiming such items might appear in the future isnt an argument for the now either.

I have alot of alts so I have to settle for less than perfect gear often times. This character has 1 LGS weapon a 1 tier 2 LGS dex skills bracer. He still uses heroic GS boots with displacement clickies due to the massive cost of displacement clickies on LGS and the need to get other clickies instead (chaotic weapons, good weapons, etc.)

Here is what he wearing as far as random loot:

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a519/slarden/Ex1Goggles_zpsugbstecc.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/slarden/media/Ex1Goggles_zpsugbstecc.jpg.html)

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a519/slarden/Ex2Helm_zps1fhzs543.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/slarden/media/Ex2Helm_zps1fhzs543.jpg.html)

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a519/slarden/Ex3Belt_zps6vndijwy.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/slarden/media/Ex3Belt_zps6vndijwy.jpg.html)

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a519/slarden/Ex4Gloves_zpsyatwbhpd.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/slarden/media/Ex4Gloves_zpsyatwbhpd.jpg.html)

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a519/slarden/Ex5Ring_zpsaphfbp9i.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/slarden/media/Ex5Ring_zpsaphfbp9i.jpg.html)

The ring and gloves I got from the exact same shroud run. Ring in a chest and gloves as an end reward. The belt from LE tempest spine. The goggles from the ASAH although the stats are kinda lowis, but still better than what I had. I don't remember where I got the helm, but it was from a raid when I had a treasure pot going.

So I see some items that can probably be improved with Cannith crafting, but not sure everything can be improved. For example the gloves display +3 insightful assassinate and +6 insightful combat mastery, but I am actually getting +4 insightful assassinate and +7 insightful stunning. These gloves might end up being better than what I can craft. And yes I know the new belt is better for dire charge but my current belt is kind of important too - this character is due for a gear refresh but I am waiting till U32 for that.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Kindly post 3 random loots you own yourself (doesnt matter if you looted it yourself) that:
- Have 3 effects that go well together
- All 3 effects have a value that is at or above the max value for the non-mc range for that level.
- Have an augment slot
- Is Master Crafted (and thus is lucky)

Just to inject here - time and opportunity improve your odds. In large Guilds, we have tons of this stuff flowing into our Guild chests. I have at least 5-10 items right now that meet your criteria, rotting in our Guild chest for level 5+ gear.

My perspective is different, I realize, coming from a huge guild, but - consider my perspective to be the same you may have months from now given more time and opportunity.

[dunklezhan]

You can make those, just not at 100% success.



Changes my view then. Still dislike the 34 vs 40 limit, but I'm absolutely fine with top end recipes not being 100% even at max crafting levels.

[Aelonwy]

Thank you No Worries for each response. Even if its not what we want to hear, its great to have the continued discourse.

Further questions:

Will banishing/smiting/disruption be returning to the random loot tables?
Will ammo & runestones remain in Cannith Crafting? (Apologies if this was answered somewhere before)
Can we please have the bound recipe crafted items made BTA instead of BTC? Inventory is already an issue in this game, let's not compound it.
Why is Speed so important to have random only? If we cannot craft Speed may we at least have the full 30% Striding?


Somewhere someone (apologies to creative person) suggested a system by which we could use gems to craft augment slots onto crafting blanks (at least) did anyone at Turbine read this idea? Was it too far beyond the scope of possibility?

[mikarddo]

Just to inject here - time and opportunity improve your odds. In large Guilds, we have tons of this stuff flowing into our Guild chests. I have at least 5-10 items right now that meet your criteria, rotting in our Guild chest for level 5+ gear.

My perspective is different, I realize, coming from a huge guild, but - consider my perspective to be the same you may have months from now given more time and opportunity.

So, in a huge guild (say 750 people) you have maybe 10 such items to spare? Is that in total for the entire guild? In that case it doesnt impress me much :)

Just one build replacing gear every 3 levels in just 10 slots would need in the order of 100 items - so 10 spare items that may or may not fit the build in question leaves lots of room to craft the remaining pieces.

Ie, both RGL and CC has a place to fill. If CC was to be able to simply craft MC loot RGL would have no place.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

...The flexibility and variety of lootgen was a problem that needed fixing, IMO. When I started playing in 2011, and for years after that, lootgen had limited slots for stats and skills. Strength only came on bracers, gloves, belts and rings, for example. And Jumping only came on boots, belts and rings.

Lootgen was then changed, and all of a sudden slotting went out the window. Seemingly anything went anywhere. For my money, this was much less interesting and engaging. Then lootgen was changed again, to what we have now, where we're back to limited slotting. To me this is a welcome correction.

You seem to prefer the "anything anywhere" school of thought. That was a very short-lived feature of lootgen. For most of DDO's history, lootgen slotting has been very limited.

You are forgetting to add - the current/soon-to-be-former Cannith Crafting system embraced this loot generation design, to enable/allow Flexibility in Cannith Crafting. It has become part of the long-term expectations from those who spent hours upon hours crafting with their characters. "Anything Anywhere" - well, actually, what is wrong with that, for Cannith Crafting? What is wrong with that, for Random Loots, even if some of the slotting would be more rarely applied? Let's use a little logic here - you get a +5 to Strength "magically" from a gear item. So, in this virtual world we play in, there's some magical way to boost a statistic. Why is that same magic not capable from other gear all the same? Logically, if some Master Craftsman out there can imbue a bracer, why can't he imbue a ring also with the same Ability?

I can understand that you have a preference, but what is it based on? It's based on your personal preference of the way you'd like to see the game designed. For the high level Crafters here that have spent 40+ hours (or much, much more) grinding away at Cannith Crafting, you must consider that the new crafting system could nullify the value of all that time/effort spent, as there are many crafters who will find this new Cannith Crafting system to be Dead on Arrival (DOA).

We would simply agree to disagree on Random Loot. The Design change was hasty, poorly implemented at the time New Loot released, and has been controversial ever since then. There are many players not even here to bolster my argument - they've simply left the game and the Forums, semi-permanently or permanently.

[mikarddo]

I have alot of alts so I have to settle for less than perfect gear often times.

So I see some items that can probably be improved with Cannith crafting, but not sure everything can be improved. For example the gloves display +3 insightful assassinate and +6 insightful combat mastery, but I am actually getting +4 insightful assassinate and +7 insightful stunning. These gloves might end up being better than what I can craft. And yes I know the new belt is better for dire charge but my current belt is kind of important too - this character is due for a gear refresh but I am waiting till U32 for that.

Lots of alts should favor crafting as thats on demand and in large quantities.

Some items being able to improve and some not with CC sounds about right to me.

Wrt. max level gear I am more worried that the U32 stuff might eclipse CC than RGL.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

So, in a huge guild (say 750 people) you have maybe 10 such items to spare? Is that in total for the entire guild? In that case it doesnt impress me much :)

Just one build replacing gear every 3 levels in just 10 slots would need in the order of 100 items - so 10 spare items that may or may not fit the build in question leaves lots of room to craft the remaining pieces.

Ie, both RGL and CC has a place to fill. If CC was to be able to simply craft MC loot RGL would have no place.

It's a snapshot in time, yet - gear is constantly flowing in/out of chests. It's not just 10 items, that was an estimate from a snapshot in time. We hit the max in our chests continuously, for both Member and Officer chests, with gear flowing in/out. It's like a Fed-Ex distribution center (you wouldn't accuse Fed-Ex of only moving 10 packages a day? :) ) As for our numbers, we lost about 1/3 of the guild (~250) from the month of lag, but that's another topic for other threads, so we don't have all 750 active (about 400-500 active as of today).

And as for RGL having no place - what's wrong with it having a lessening position over time, and especially inside Guilds that could potentially craft equal/better gear? That then lends toward the Social aspects of DDO, that players would want to socialize and communicate with each other about what gear they want crafted.

Have we all forgotten Gary Gygax's quote, "D&D is a Social Game." -- ?

Seems like we have, and that some statistical troll wants to preserve their loot system design.

[Gremmlynn]

With the changes listed in the OP and the fact that ML shards fill in a lot of the blank spaces.Will deconstructing items still give xp and if so, will it still be capped at 5xp or will this be expanded to whatever the level of the deconstruction is?

This could also help fill some of those blank spaces.

[Gremmlynn]

And no deathblock? I don't craft deathblock often, but on occassion I've had a character with that hole in his gear set up needing to be filled.Deathblock seems to be one of the effects that's not listed as it's both a static effect and isn't exclusive to either rangen or crafted. As we know it drops and it doesn't appear on the rangen exclusive list.

Adding the list of static effects, such as this, that aren't exclusive would be nice.

[searcher15]

I don't know ONE person or seen ONE screenshot of an item anywhere (game, forums, auction house) that is truly a lucky random loot.
Let me define what is the LUCKY loot:
It's an item that has:
1. A 3rd effect on it
2. All 3 effects are relevant to your build
3. All 3 effects are in the masterful craftsmanship range
4. All 3 effects are at the max value of the range.


Actually, one high stat is enough, because I can't get it anywhere else.

If CC crated item allows +14 ability, and I can get random gen with +16 or more, I'm obviously going to choose the one with higher value, regardless if other effect is useful or not.
Random loot items with high stats may be crazy rare - but if it exists, someone, someday will have one for sale.
Crafted items may allow up to 3 effects, but if the effects stay below the "max" you can get, the crafted items will be reduced to role of "hole fillers". And for that role, we could really use some flexibility.

[Faltout]

With the changes listed in the OP and the fact that ML shards fill in a lot of the blank spaces.
Changes listed in the OP are:

The 50% success mark will now be 15 levels below the recipe as opposed to the 10 levels it is currently.
To go along with that, players will now be able to craft recipes they have at least 1% chance of success, instead of being limited to 50% and above.
The ML shards exist at 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100.

So, with the above in mind, at level 70 you have 0% chance to craft level 100 shards (70+15 = 50% success, 70+15+15 = 0% success), you are 20 levels above the level 50 shards (group 2) and you have the ML shards to craft. How many ML shards can one craft without reincarnating? Is the xp still declining depending on how many times you craft the shard? Does the xp still depend on the success chance of the shard and does the success chance increase with each successful crafting of the shard?

And while level 70 is perfect for my example (30 levels below 100 so 0% success chance), a little lower or a little higher does not change things dramatically, since 1 more level will only increase the success chance by 3.3%. In which case it's still 30 shards to level (29 failed, 1 successful) assuming the 1 shard will level you.

[NoWorries]

Changes listed in the OP are:

The ML shards exist at 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100.

So, with the above in mind, at level 70 you have 0% chance to craft level 100 shards (70+15 = 50% success, 70+15+15 = 0% success), you are 20 levels above the level 50 shards (group 2) and you have the ML shards to craft. How many ML shards can one craft without reincarnating? Is the xp still declining depending on how many times you craft the shard? Does the xp still depend on the success chance of the shard and does the success chance increase with each successful crafting of the shard?

And while level 70 is perfect for my example (30 levels below 100 so 0% success chance), a little lower or a little higher does not change things dramatically, since 1 more level will only increase the success chance by 3.3%. In which case it's still 30 shards to level (29 failed, 1 successful) assuming the 1 shard will level you.

Also the XP curve is changed quite a bit from the old system which can be seen by how much XP it takes to get to 150 now vs how much it did before.

Setting a character to level 70 and crafting ML shards, I had no problem getting to where level 100 shards were above a 40% chance, at which point it seemed most beneficial to focus on those and leveling continued quickly. It did not take an excess amount of recipes or failures to do so.

An example like this, which looks at one of two areas where the big group of recipes is the furthest spread out (and the other one being even lower where there is an easier leveling progression) would instead lend to the argument that if anything needed to be changed on recipe difficulties, it is that another group of some sort would be needed at 85. Since once you do start working on the 100s, every major group shows up in 25 level gaps providing a continuous feed. This wouldn't suggest that all recipes need to be spread out over the whole spectrum.

However, I didn't see any real difficulties getting through this leveling zone.

[zehnvhex]

This is an inaccurate assessment of the future

Then why did you repeat it? Honestly, some people...

I mean I'm sure you have the resources to instantly **** out a full set of perfectly optimized random loot on demand for anybody in your guild at will. Everybody else all you'll have to do is dump X essence on your guild crafter every 3 levels and get a full suit of 10% below ideal gear. It isn't until you hit the 27+ levels where you actually spend more then an hour at them that you'll care about that extra 10% in efficiency and start hoarding gear and if they ever implement something worth doing at level 30, crafting will fall even more by the wayside.

So you're a little ahead of the curve in that regard. Most people don't have full kits ready for every TR and Cannith Crafting will do that for them. Occasionally you might find an exceptionally ideal piece that you want to hang onto but not many people are that willing to hang onto an entire TR cache of every possible assortment of level 9 twink loot. I'll gladly do 4% less dps then the next guy over in exchange for having 200+ inventory slots back.

The point is the same though. Cannith crafting needs to do something other then just be "slightly crappier loot" to have any sort of long term relevance. The most long term relevant items in WoW crafting for example were always item augments. Enchants, gems, augments and so forth. That and bags of course.

[zehnvhex]

Also the XP curve is changed

Hi NoWorries...

I'm wondering if since I'm just mashing these shards for the purpose of leveling would it be possible to add a UI element that I can toggle that just immediately deconstructs the shard I make? I dislike inventory clutter and I dislike the "Make 30 bronze swords so you skill up and can make 30 iron swords so you can skill up and make 30 steel swords so you can skill up and make..." style of crafting levelup.

I know there isn't much you can do about treadmill leveling given time and resource constraints but I'm really hoping you can let us skip a step in the grinding part by just letting me immediately break shards (or vendor them or whatever).

Thanks!

[Dandonk]

Cannith crafting needs to do something other then just be "slightly crappier loot" to have any sort of long term relevance. The most long term relevant items in WoW crafting for example were always item augments. Enchants, gems, augments and so forth. That and bags of course.

Indeed.

Item augmenting could be a good idea as well, but I doubt it's within the scope of this revamp.

[azrael4h]

Deathblock seems to be one of the effects that's not listed as it's both a static effect and isn't exclusive to either rangen or crafted. As we know it drops and it doesn't appear on the rangen exclusive list.

Adding the list of static effects, such as this, that aren't exclusive would be nice.

It looks like these lists aren't remotely complete, either due to effects being removed entirely without No Worries actually knowing about it (Smiting, Disruption, Banishing) or because the effect is generally not notable except against Beholders. And a lot of players use Spell Absorption items there where ever possible.

[mikarddo]

It's a snapshot in time, yet - gear is constantly flowing in/out of chests. It's not just 10 items, that was an estimate from a snapshot in time. We hit the max in our chests continuously, for both Member and Officer chests, with gear flowing in/out. It's like a Fed-Ex distribution center (you wouldn't accuse Fed-Ex of only moving 10 packages a day? :) ) As for our numbers, we lost about 1/3 of the guild (~250) from the month of lag, but that's another topic for other threads, so we don't have all 750 active (about 400-500 active as of today).

And as for RGL having no place - what's wrong with it having a lessening position over time, and especially inside Guilds that could potentially craft equal/better gear? That then lends toward the Social aspects of DDO, that players would want to socialize and communicate with each other about what gear they want crafted.

Have we all forgotten Gary Gygax's quote, "D&D is a Social Game." -- ?

Seems like we have, and that some statistical troll wants to preserve their loot system design.

If CC could make the same level of power as perfect RGL at will RGL would be pointless within weeks (atleast for level 1-25, maybe a bit later for higher levels). Thats the issue here. Whereas not giving out perfect items from CC at will means both system have a place - afterall, even your guild probably cannot produce 10-15 perfect RGL items on any given ML with the exact combinations wanted every day so crafting the missing pieces to fill holes will still be very usefull.

Besides, your very argument that having a lessened position over time applies just as easily to CC gear which indeed may experience a lessened position over time compared to RGL and even more probably to named loot - but isnt that the case for everything in an MMO? So, that one goes both way. Likewise the social element argument - there is just as much social interaction in sharing random loot as that will be in sharing CC crafted items. So I fail to see how your argument supports either way.

[Dandonk]

If CC could make the same level of power as perfect RGL at will RGL would be pointless within weeks (atleast for level 1-25, maybe a bit later for higher levels). Thats the issue here.

That's depends entirely on the cost of the highlevel items. They don't have to be as cheap and easy to find the ingredients for as they are currently.

[duntduntduuun]

You just seem oblivious to the fact that lucky loot is about all people keep from your new random loot, 99.99% of random loot is sold deconstructed or not even taken out the chest. Making cannith crafting worse than random loot will always make cannith crafting less desirable in the long run. Maybe not immediately but in the long run if you can find better items in random loot that's what you'll end up with.



You just seem oblivious to the fact that if people can get lucky loot that is a higher value, people will always keep the random loot especially if you cant get stats that aren't normally in those locations. If you aren't making it as good as random loot you need to make it so it's at least flexible. Making cannith crafting worse than random will always make cannith crafting less desirable.

and you seem oblivious to the fact that crafting will allow you to put three desirable affixes with maximum rolls for level 34 loot on an item and flexibility will allow you to put those three perfectly chosen affixes with perfect rolls in the perfect slot. where random is almost never going to be three desirable affixes, almost never going to be the perfect slot and almost never going to be maximum rolls in all three affixes.

this whole thread is people pleading for noworries to make crafting into the only loot system thats valid in the game. you all would make random loot not even good when it rolls three best in slot rolls because you long ago crafted three nearly best in slot rolls and you got to chose the perfect item slot to place it in on top of that.

don't you all see you are asking for pure wish fulfillment? I mean they probably need to restrict cannith crafting to max level 30 as it stands even with restricted slots. as a perfect +15 +5 +20 is still better than any raid loot in the entire game.

[Dandonk]

and you seem oblivious to the fact that crafting will allow you to put three desirable affixes with maximum rolls for level 34 loot on an item and flexibility will allow you to put those three perfectly chosen affixes with perfect rolls in the perfect slot. where random is almost never going to be three desirable affixes, almost never going to be the perfect slot and almost never going to be maximum rolls in all three affixes.

this whole thread is people pleading for noworries to make crafting into the only loot system thats valid in the game. you all would make random loot not even good when it rolls three best in slot rolls because you long ago crafted three nearly best in slot rolls and you got to chose the perfect item slot to place it in on top of that.

don't you all see you are asking for pure wish fulfillment? I mean they probably need to restrict cannith crafting to max level 30 as it stands even with restricted slots. as a perfect +15 +5 +20 is still better than any raid loot in the entire game.

Not so much in the perfect slot, since the flexibility part is still very much uncertain.

I'm only asking for CC to stay relevant over time, since when you start getting the drops you want, and with steadily better named items, it will as proposed be less and less relevant.

As I've stated before, I know getting crafting up to randgen power level is not going to happen. I think that's a mistake, but I acknowledge it's not going to happen. But I think CC needs something else, then, to stay relevant. Like my proposal for consumables that provide buffs. That way there will at least continue to be some point to CC even when it's totally outdated by more plentiful randgen drops and better named items.

[Xgya]

This might be secondary to some people FAR richer than I am, but I gained a lot of my last levels' crafting XP by deconstructing items.

Will deconstruction still grant crafting XP?

[duntduntduuun]

Crafting will still be for twinking low level characters and have no business in any sort of high end capacity

really? level 34 loot is the equivelent of a level 30 quest on LE (+2) with a large loot gem going (+2) in other words it's a hair off being the best possible random rolls you can get and the only places you stand even a small chance to drop better loot than crafted loot will be LE raids on loot bonus weekends. In other words random loot will be rekt by crafting as it's currently proposed already. even without flexibility shards.

+15 and +5 or 6 insight is better than DoJ loot and you think it's going to have no business in high end? I think its safe to disagree.


Not so much in the perfect slot, since the flexibility part is still very much uncertain.

I'm only asking for CC to stay relevant over time, since when you start getting the drops you want, and with steadily better named items, it will as proposed be less and less relevant.

As I've stated before, I know getting crafting up to randgen power level is not going to happen. I think that's a mistake, but I acknowledge it's not going to happen. But I think CC needs something else, then, to stay relevant. Like my proposal for consumables that provide buffs. That way there will at least continue to be some point to CC even when it's totally outdated by more plentiful randgen drops and better named items.

that statement was arguing against flexibility(wish fullfillment) CC will always be relivant at long as they don't raise loot levels above 40 or far outstrip that level on named items.

i think this crafting will completely destroy random gen from being worth looking at, what randomly rolled item is going to compete with 3 perfect rolls and guranteed augment slots? how many 3X perfect rolled random gen items have you pulled? I'd put them somewhere in the mega millions statistical probability. so when rolling a +18 +8 item with a good third affix is akin to triple winning the lotto odds then a perfect +15 +5 with a perfect third affix and green and clear augment slots wins every time all the time.

the only time its going to even be possible to loot a better than crafted item is in the tiny range of 30+ LE content with multiple loot bonuses going. and even then we're talking a couple items a weekend per server that might be better than easilly crafted items.

let me ask how many of you guys have run LE TS on loot bonus weekends with huge jewels and a chest blesser? maybe the problem here is that people are imagining that it's easy to get a +18 item to drop, let alone one that also has a high 2nd affix such as insightful stat, there's rumored to be exactly 2 +18 items on my server. both happened in LE tempest spine with blesser on a +2 loot boost weekend.

for 99% of the games pop crafted gear will be BiS for a very long time, even raid gear has nothing on it, the best raid stat items are +15 and +7 but only on a weapon, or +12 and +4. I think noworries should pump the brakes and drop the max craftable level to 30 with special crafting weekends where it can go to 32 and maybe special drops that give very brief one affix shots at 34.

i mean at least until he sees how things shake out it would be prudent to start with 30 max and increase it if need be than to start with 34 and not be able to roll it back without outrage and hurt feels.

[Greantun]

Not so much in the perfect slot, since the flexibility part is still very much uncertain.

I'm only asking for CC to stay relevant over time, since when you start getting the drops you want, and with steadily better named items, it will as proposed be less and less relevant.

As I've stated before, I know getting crafting up to randgen power level is not going to happen. I think that's a mistake, but I acknowledge it's not going to happen. But I think CC needs something else, then, to stay relevant. Like my proposal for consumables that provide buffs. That way there will at least continue to be some point to CC even when it's totally outdated by more plentiful randgen drops and better named items.

I know there are crafters out there that think they need everything perfect, and that is the only way to play the game. I have been playing since 2013, and have never crafted until I just recently started deconstructing items in anticipation of the new CC.

I don't seem to have a problem getting the gear in the slots that will make my toon do just fine. I am on life 29, and am still using a combination of RNG loot and named items, and only named items at higher levels. I have been replacing many of my old RNG items with the new ones, as they are better.

I don't ever see a need to have the "perfect" loot placement, as I haven't needed it yet.

This is a game, and to me playing the game is way more important than stressing over "Can I get the best loot layout on my toon" and "I have to run this new quest until I get the item I want."

[Dandonk]

that statement was arguing against flexibility(wish fullfillment) CC will always be relivant at long as they don't raise loot levels above 40 or far outstrip that level on named items.

I disagree. For many builds, the main stat is overwhelmingly more important than secondary stats. Those two or three or four more (we don't actually know precisely where the power of the CC items will land) in the main stat will far outweigh a few more in some secondary stat.

CC, randgen and named loot were supposed to all have their uses even at endgame. While this might be true at first, CC will gradually (and perhaps more quickly than you think) become the least relevant of the three. I think that is a mistake, since it is a hugely grindy optional system. Why make it the least powerful?

But as I said, I understand that it's not going to change. I just want something else (like those consumables I harp on about) to keep CC relevant even as more and more legendary raids and quests are released (with corresponding more randgen of top quality, and new and better named items).

[mikarddo]

really? level 34 loot is the equivelent of a level 30 quest on LE (+2) with a large loot gem going (+2) in other words it's a hair off being the best possible random rolls you can get and the only places you stand even a small chance to drop better loot than crafted loot will be LE raids on loot bonus weekends. In other words random loot will be rekt by crafting as it's currently proposed already. even without flexibility shards.


Legendary quests are 31, so 33 on Elite. Also, you forget +1 from ship buffs. So LE quests will be 36 with a gem and 37 if you add a chest blesser. Apart from that I agree with your overall point - but best get the details right even so.

[Dandonk]

I know there are crafters out there that think they need everything perfect, and that is the only way to play the game. I have been playing since 2013, and have never crafted until I just recently started deconstructing items in anticipation of the new CC.

I don't seem to have a problem getting the gear in the slots that will make my toon do just fine. I am on life 29, and am still using a combination of RNG loot and named items, and only named items at higher levels. I have been replacing many of my old RNG items with the new ones, as they are better.

I don't ever see a need to have the "perfect" loot placement, as I haven't needed it yet.

This is a game, and to me playing the game is way more important than stressing over "Can I get the best loot layout on my toon" and "I have to run this new quest until I get the item I want."

Perfect? No. Relevant even as time goes by? Yes, please. I think it is a mistake to release a comprehensive crafting system in a way so it's guaranteed to become irrelevant at end game over time. That's just bad design. Give us a reason to have those crafting levels, even when the stuff we can crraft is totally eclipsed by more top end randgen loot dropping, and better named items.

[Hilltrot]

I think a lot of people don't like the "no flexible shards" change.

But other than that it is looking like a pretty good system.

In particular, as far as effects that are too low at low levels.........FORTIFICATION. PLEASE look at this.

No flexible shards is a good idea. You still have augments if you need them.

Fortification is fine.

[slarden]

Lots of alts should favor crafting as thats on demand and in large quantities.

. Yep I will probably focus heavily on crafting. Also it's the easiest way to adjust to named loot flavor of the month changes. Wear what named items you need and fill in the odds and ends with random loot. It's much harder to do that with random loot.

[QuantumFX]

NoWorries: I notice that you have chosen not to address a certain issue. That being: What are the top tier bonuses that we are going to be able to craft? Does this mean that you are… WORRIED!?!?!?

[Hilltrot]

Flexible shards are a horrible idea.

1. Its probably the primary reason Cannith Crafting was gimp for as long as it's been.

You can't make Cannith crafting powerful! After all, it has flexible shards! That's where it has power!

Ugh ...

2. It goes against D&D lore.

If you're a PnP D&D enthusiast, you'd realize that flexible shards are like the brand new player demanding to be a Dragon Monk. They have no clue what the game is about. They don't want to really play. They have no clue about the background of D&D. And they just want to be the baddest player at the table.

3. It turns a thought process of sacrifices and other key character decisions into a Cannith Crafting grinding mission.

4. We have augments which still allow for this flexibility. Want a +int belt? Just find one with an augment or two.

Right now, the people who like this can add +6 int to a belt with a lot of stupid grinding and a complete lack of thought to itemization.

Right Now, I just added +10 int to a belt and am scratching my head as to why people want something as stupid as flexible shards.

5. There is still plenty of customization allowed. Limits are what makes a game fun.

[Hilltrot]

It is not just Flexible Shards, it is the fundamental way the Design of the New Loot System was implemented in the first place, to remove flexibility of more variety in the way Abilities and Skills could be found across the wider range of random loots. Cart vs horse issue, and the horse is New Loot System, and many of us find that horse to be "broken" regardless the semantics on whether it's WAI or not. The New Loot System is not agreed upon by the Player Community, and - arguments like yours are a bit skewed because many of us are "thinking about our gear" more than you realize (which in your test, would make it "good" instead). In fact, we're thinking so much about our gear that we come in here to see yet another post by a Dev without acknowledging this issue (while fielding softball questions otherwise), and that is something players like you should actually categorize as "bad." I highly suggest you stop worrying about the "thinking level" of the Player Community, as there's no XP for you in that.

I like the new loot system. Most players like the new loot system. This change is good.

The new loot system was needed to be able to go forward with the game.

Get over it.

[Hilltrot]

HA HA you are going to base cannith crafting on random loot. O well then it going to be useless just like most of the random loot is. The only random loot items i use are those with states, all weapons are next to useless because it has caster stuff on it. All this hard work you are doing to make a system even more useless then it was before. Very very disappointed.

The only problem with the random loot is that it is a little too random. In my current leveling, I am using almost completely Random loot. I had complete sets of Cannith, but the random stuff is simply better. Named weapons and Thunderforged is usually better for weapons, but this is to be expected. I have picked up FAR better weapons with the new loot than I would have possible found in the old, far worse system.

In fact, I don't buy things under the old loot system.

[duntduntduuun]

I disagree. For many builds, the main stat is overwhelmingly more important than secondary stats. Those two or three or four more (we don't actually know precisely where the power of the CC items will land) in the main stat will far outweigh a few more in some secondary stat.

this is mostly for people who are gaming against math instead of the game sure there are some exceptions like some instant kill builds that have to beat really high fort saves but exceptions don't really disprove the overall point.

want to see a crafting system that works? look at Path of Exile, you can with enough work craft what you want even on unique items, but it aint gonna be easy or quick but you guys don't want any grind or work so it would never work for DDO you guys just want to have nearly perfect gear the moment you reach max crafting level.

want DOJ goggles? dont bother you can craft +15 +5 on some random junk. new this update: craft raid loot and everyone said YAAAAAAAAASSS for two weeks then they left again for lack of things to do.

[Aelonwy]

New Random loot is NOT universally better than old random loot, mostly better yes but due to bugs and oversights there are a number of flaws.

Fortification on new random loot is a moderate issue. Its more of an issue for new players and new alts than for vets. Vets have stockpiles of Heavy Fort items, vets know where to go for the Blood Knuckle's Loincloth, Nightforge Gorget and other easily acquired fortification items. With the lower values of fort on new random gen loot new players should be steered toward these items and fortification augments assuming they have a blue or green slot somewhere available.

Further flaws of New Random Loot include but are not limited to: Missing properties such as Ghostbane, Disruption, Banishing, Smiting, enchantments not displaying on item's name such as Spell Resistance, Collars of Doubleshot and casting properties, Guards not working, Ranged weapons not scaling properly, have I missed anything?

As I said before, in my humble opinion, both New Random Loot and Cannith Crafting could use a hair more Flexibility but as far as I'm concerned this can be accomplished by allowing ANY stat to be generated on/crafted on rings.

[Hilltrot]

The point is the same though. Cannith crafting needs to do something other then just be "slightly crappier loot" to have any sort of long term relevance. The most long term relevant items in WoW crafting for example were always item augments. Enchants, gems, augments and so forth. That and bags of course.

WoW gave each crafting skill a single boost you could get over other gear. And then you'd buy your gems from a jeweler, your enchants from and enchanter, etc. So you were semi-reliant upon others to get properly geared. In a shard-based economy this is a bad idea.

Cannith is a single crafting skill. Comparing it to WoW is so wrong on so many different levels.

I still haven't seen a single person post a single mastercrafted 3 - enchant useful item for their toon. One might argue that the new random enchant is too random.

I have talked to some in-game who are looking forward to this update for the primary reason that they can't get the RNG to drop the special set of numbers they need.

The first Cannith was Far more weak and pathetic. Everyone is crying about what this system can't do.

I swear I'm listening to some old geezers whining about how peanut butter with bacon mixed in is no longer sold in stores. Or how baked potatoes are better than microwaved potatoes.

I haven't seen seen so many people looking at the glass half-empty when just a second ago it was actually empty.

I don't think the developers will purposefully make Cannith weak. Cannith is a money maker, where RGL is not. In fact, I believe Cannith will be incredibly powerful, especially for those who aren't running raids every day. If you are, you'll probably be able to get better named gear and might use Cannith for a single item or two.

I think the developers made the first Cannith incredibly weak because they were still afraid to upset the group of players who were upset with anything remotely close to pay-to-win. I don't think they have the same fear anymore.

[Hilltrot]

Fortification on new random loot is a moderate issue. Its more of an issue for new players and new alts than for vets. Vets have stockpiles of Heavy Fort items, vets know where to go for the Blood Knuckle's Loincloth, Nightforge Gorget and other easily acquired fortification items. With the lower values of fort on new random gen loot new players should be steered toward these items and fortification augments assuming they have a blue or green slot somewhere available.

Further flaws of New Random Loot include but are not limited to: Missing properties such as Ghostbane, Disruption, Banishing, Smiting, enchantments not displaying on item's name such as Spell Resistance, Collars of Doubleshot and casting properties, Guards not working, Ranged weapons not scaling properly, have I missed anything?

Some people can't live without 100% + fort. It's their security blanket. Seriously, you can add insightful Fort to Fort, if you really need to have your high fort at low levels. I don't have stockpiles of heavy fort items. If I really find the need for it, I get a blue gem. Otherwise, i just wait till I get higher level.

Blood knuckle's 25% fortification is seriously worthless.

"Ghostbane, Disruption, Banishing, Smiting"

Seriously?! I have more vorpal than I can carry, and you're complaining about these? Ghostbane use to not even exist.

"enchantments not displaying on item's name" Now you're arguing semantics.

When was the last time you actually talked to a new player except to tell them to look up what BYOH means?

[Hilltrot]

All items created with old Cannith Crafting will remain as is when the new system goes in. However, all of the old recipes will be gone at that time.


Will all my old shards be destroyed for me, or will I have to destroy them myself, one-by one.

If the recipes disappear, the shards become worthless since they have no vend value.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

...The new loot system was needed to be able to go forward with the game...

Please define what you mean by "go forward" then, because to many of us, the New Loot System was 2-steps backward. Does your forward = backward? Stuck in reverse gear?

[Uische]

Will the Crafting Planner [calculator] be adjusted to the new changes?
Will it be accurate?

It's located here:
http://perfectweb.org/ddo/crafting/base_crafting.php

[RD2play]

Flexible shards are a horrible idea.

1. Its probably the primary reason Cannith Crafting was gimp for as long as it's been.

You can't make Cannith crafting powerful! After all, it has flexible shards! That's where it has power!

Ugh ...

2. It goes against D&D lore.

If you're a PnP D&D enthusiast, you'd realize that flexible shards are like the brand new player demanding to be a Dragon Monk. They have no clue what the game is about. They don't want to really play. They have no clue about the background of D&D. And they just want to be the baddest player at the table.

3. It turns a thought process of sacrifices and other key character decisions into a Cannith Crafting grinding mission.

4. We have augments which still allow for this flexibility. Want a +int belt? Just find one with an augment or two.

Right now, the people who like this can add +6 int to a belt with a lot of stupid grinding and a complete lack of thought to itemization.

Right Now, I just added +10 int to a belt and am scratching my head as to why people want something as stupid as flexible shards.

5. There is still plenty of customization allowed. Limits are what makes a game fun.

1. CC is gimp because it never got updated when RGL got an update in the first place.
2. Going away from the jewelry/clothing/armor/weapons is already going away from D&D lore
3. The grind is optional
4. it is going to be maybe another year before augments will get an overhaul,
5. I agree, and IMO Flex does not have to mean "goes everywhere" but 2 more (logical) places for effects to go would be a good thing, frankly I find the current RGL to restrictive, and make little sense in some parts (trip on belts/gloves but not on boots?, ins str in 3 places but ins cha only on one , cloaks...). I have even opted to have Flex be at a lower power, so you can have your thing that fits into your set next to your raid and named gear, but if it is in an off-slot it will be a little less power. Also having items like Rings, and Trinkets be more "everything goes" could work.

Not all players have a lot of game time, like me, and I don't like using (my sometimes) one day in the week I can play to be used only to see if I can fit in a new item I pulled, and then spend hours tinkering and swapping gear around just to find out it just doesn't fit. This game has a lot of freedom when it come to building my character but then when it comes to gear all the sudden it has to be really restrictive, I just don't get that. I can settle for less power in favor of more flexibility and I can understand not everything should go anywhere, but come on it is a game and it should be fun, for me that means running the quests, not fitting out my char every 2/3 levels that takes a masters degree in gearing. So I am happy that flex is still on the table, albeit it not being in there at the launch of the new crafting. We will see how it pans out and I hope it will all be OK. But if not I will there with the others asking for some kind of Flex to be added!

[Aelonwy]

Everyone is crying about what this system can't do.

I swear I'm listening to some old geezers whining about how peanut butter with bacon mixed in is no longer sold in stores. Or how baked potatoes are better than microwaved potatoes.

I haven't seen seen so many people looking at the glass half-empty when just a second ago it was actually empty.



Some people can't live without 100% + fort. It's their security blanket. Seriously, you can add insightful Fort to Fort, if you really need to have your high fort at low levels. I don't have stockpiles of heavy fort items. If I really find the need for it, I get a blue gem. Otherwise, i just wait till I get higher level.

Blood knuckle's 25% fortification is seriously worthless.

"Ghostbane, Disruption, Banishing, Smiting"

Seriously?! I have more vorpal than I can carry, and you're complaining about these? Ghostbane use to not even exist.

"enchantments not displaying on item's name" Now you're arguing semantics.

When was the last time you actually talked to a new player except to tell them to look up what BYOH means?

Most of us are not arguing, or whining, or crying, or any other negative appellation with which you choose to characterize our opinions. As far as I was concerned we were having a reasonable, calm discourse about our ideas/opinions on the New Random loot and Cannith Crafting going forward.

And for your information I am a casual player in a family-mostly small guild, I have never once told anyone to BYOH or look it up. I have always explained to newer players whatever I can to help them including guiding them on tours to show them where the houses are located, where to buy bags and quivers, explaining patrons and favor rewards etc. and yes directing them to the wiki as the best source of information. Quite the opposite of being glass-half-empty I have enough hope that this game will continue for sometime to come that I have been purchasing content for my son to play on his account and hope to do the same for my daughter when I feel she's old enough to play.

[maddong]

Is +15 int level 34 or is +16? +6 insightful int? I guess it will be on Lamania now, but level 34 doesn't mean much too me since I don't see the level on my gear.

From my experience and info gathering:
Level 33 +15
Level 36 +16
Level 39 +17

I don't know about insight bonuses.

[zehnvhex]

Truth be told if they manage to fix the glitch that locks you out of putting items in the deconstructing bar until you close/reopen the crafting UI that alone would be worth it for me.

Deconstructing takes long enough as is, having it glitch out 3~5 times per session kills me deep where it hurts most.

[Hilltrot]

Please define what you mean by "go forward" then, because to many of us, the New Loot System was 2-steps backward. Does your forward = backward? Stuck in reverse gear?

No, it means forward. You're the one with nostalgia. I know it's a difficult word. Here's the definition:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nostalgia

Instead if being limited to 2 enchantments, new loot has multiple enchantments.

Although weapons now have suffixes you aren't use to on weapons, such as deadly and speed, their prefixes are more powerful.

Mithral!

I could go on, but there is so much more to the new loot than the old loot. And it's scalable for future content.

[Gremmlynn]

That's depends entirely on the cost of the highlevel items. They don't have to be as cheap and easy to find the ingredients for as they are currently.Except they kind of do as the same costs apply to leveling within the system. Crafting will be pretty much DOA if progress is glacially slow and expensive.

[ZhenBuYaoShi]

It looks like these lists aren't remotely complete, either due to effects being removed entirely without No Worries actually knowing about it (Smiting, Disruption, Banishing) or because the effect is generally not notable except against Beholders. And a lot of players use Spell Absorption items there where ever possible.

But, most people keep on assuming those lists that are posted are the definitive final effects, and all, nothing else, that we're going to be able to craft. So, not the case.

Also, have to put my 2 cents in for flexible shards. Now that you've stated your stance on the issue, I can say, why, again? Flexible shards actually help you keep named items, and other items that aren't crafted, on your body. I don't know how many times I've had to craft something just because I had some named item I didn't want to take off, or an awesome, old world good sensed random loot, item I didn't want to take off. However, that was the slot that X was slated to go into, so I had to flexible shard something onto one of the 2 or 3 slots it opened up for me. Not anything anywhere you want, that's not how flexible shards work, don't make it into something that it isn't, that just stripped away all restrictions, because it doesn't. Flexible shards are good not just for CC, but for named items, and for other random loot items themselves. I think it's a poor decision, and to the person that said that flexible shards takes all of the thinking out of crafting gear; you are sadly mistaken! I've spent hours designing nearly complete sets of gear for toons; it's not as simple as "oh, I need spellpower for acid, I'll just put it on my goggles, because there are flexible shards for acid spellpower!", no, I still don't have that as an option; there are still limitations; it's only FLEXIBILITY, a style of flexibility that's greatly needed.

[Gremmlynn]

Truth be told if they manage to fix the glitch that locks you out of putting items in the deconstructing bar until you close/reopen the crafting UI that alone would be worth it for me.

Deconstructing takes long enough as is, having it glitch out 3~5 times per session kills me deep where it hurts most.I wish I was you. I have to reopen it nearly every time. Makes me think the glitch might be in the game client or be a timeout issue.

[Gremmlynn]

But, most people keep on assuming those lists that are posted are the definitive final effects, and all, nothing else, that we're going to be able to craft. So, not the case.Right. All that's listed for static effects are those that are either exclusive to Rangen or to CC, only shared scaled effects are listed. There really should be a list of shared static effects, even if it doesn't have their crafting level included, to give a better idea of what is or will be in the game.

[slarden]

Will all my old shards be destroyed for me, or will I have to destroy them myself, one-by one.

If the recipes disappear, the shards become worthless since they have no vend value.

At least for now you can crunch those into more essences. That is what I am going to do.

[ZhenBuYaoShi]

Flexible shards are a horrible idea.

1. Its probably the primary reason Cannith Crafting was gimp for as long as it's been.

You can't make Cannith crafting powerful! After all, it has flexible shards! That's where it has power!

Ugh ...

2. It goes against D&D lore.

If you're a PnP D&D enthusiast, you'd realize that flexible shards are like the brand new player demanding to be a Dragon Monk. They have no clue what the game is about. They don't want to really play. They have no clue about the background of D&D. And they just want to be the baddest player at the table.

3. It turns a thought process of sacrifices and other key character decisions into a Cannith Crafting grinding mission.

4. We have augments which still allow for this flexibility. Want a +int belt? Just find one with an augment or two.

Right now, the people who like this can add +6 int to a belt with a lot of stupid grinding and a complete lack of thought to itemization.

Right Now, I just added +10 int to a belt and am scratching my head as to why people want something as stupid as flexible shards.

5. There is still plenty of customization allowed. Limits are what makes a game fun.

Limits are what conservatives think make a game fun, that camp of thought does not hold true for all, but rules, rules I can live with. I have no need to reference this, as I already know it's true having used it upon my DM in campaigns he ran. In the 3.5 rules about what effects can go on what slots on the body, there is a flexibility clause, you actually have to read the entire section on making magic items, and not just look at the body diagram that shows the slots and attuned enchants for those slots. However, the rules state that if you pay it was either 1.5 or 2 times the cost in gold, you could get an unattuned enchant placed on a different body slot. It did go on to state that some things were simply incompatible, and it was up to the DM's discretion as to which effects could not possibly go on certain slots. But, this just goes to show that flexible item making was already part of DnD 3.5 PnP, and Flexible shards represented it perfectly. Taking it out, is actually removing yet another part of DnD that belongs in the game.

[Hilltrot]

Most of us are not arguing, or whining, or crying, or any other negative appellation with which you choose to characterize our opinions. As far as I was concerned we were having a reasonable, calm discourse about our ideas/opinions on the New Random loot and Cannith Crafting going forward.


Quotes

You are really KILLING one of the FUNDAMENTAL BEST THINGS about Cannith Crafting........FLEXIBILITY.

If the new random loot was coded in a way that doesn't allow you to make CC have flexible shards.......that is ANOTHER HUGE FAIL of the new loot.

If the coding for the new random loot does allow flexible shards, it is a HUGE FAIL for the design of cannith crafting.

Either way......fail.

looks calm to me.


HA HA you are going to base cannith crafting on random loot. O well then it going to be useless just like most of the random loot is. The only random loot items i use are those with states, all weapons are next to useless because it has caster stuff on it. All this hard work you are doing to make a system even more useless then it was before. Very very disappointed.

Reasonable - nothing but ideas how to move Cannith Crafting forward.


It is not just Flexible Shards, it is the fundamental way the Design of the New Loot System was implemented in the first place, to remove flexibility of more variety in the way Abilities and Skills could be found across the wider range of random loots. Cart vs horse issue, and the horse is New Loot System, and many of us find that horse to be "broken" regardless the semantics on whether it's WAI or not. The New Loot System is not agreed upon by the Player Community, and - arguments like yours are a bit skewed because many of us are "thinking about our gear" more than you realize (which in your test, would make it "good" instead). In fact, we're thinking so much about our gear that we come in here to see yet another post by a Dev without acknowledging this issue (while fielding softball questions otherwise), and that is something players like you should actually categorize as "bad." I highly suggest you stop worrying about the "thinking level" of the Player Community, as there's no XP for you in that.

Yep, nothing but ideas on how to move things forward.


ffs, people complain and whine for a change to the crafting system, and when they finally get something it's not good enough.

Judging from the whiny baby complaints in this thread, I'm surprised that any of the devs even take the time to say anything at all.

Oops, I wasn't the first to notice this trend.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your position and what you were trying to do. Looking back on it, my response to you about BYOH was in error.

However, I do contend that Fort is something only semi-experienced players start to worry about and for them there is still plenty of fort around.

[Hilltrot]

Limits are what conservatives think make a game fun, that camp of thought does not hold true for all, but rules, rules I can live with. I have no need to reference this, as I already know it's true having used it upon my DM in campaigns he ran. In the 3.5 rules about what effects can go on what slots on the body, there is a flexibility clause, you actually have to read the entire section on making magic items, and not just look at the body diagram that shows the slots and attuned enchants for those slots. However, the rules state that if you pay it was either 1.5 or 2 times the cost in gold, you could get an unattuned enchant placed on a different body slot. It did go on to state that some things were simply incompatible, and it was up to the DM's discretion as to which effects could not possibly go on certain slots. But, this just goes to show that flexible item making was already part of DnD 3.5 PnP, and Flexible shards represented it perfectly. Taking it out, is actually removing yet another part of DnD that belongs in the game.

I have revised my thinking.

Yes, I can be convinced and change my mind.

I think leaving it out for now is still good. But I won't come to the forums and complain if they later decide to add it back in after many of the kinks in the system are ironed out.

[Silverleafeon]

Latest read thru, overall, looking good to me.
Better understanding, and I like the idea that I can attempt crafting 430 level stuff with a chance for error.


I appreciate concern on this point:

Deconstructing is very time consuming and clunky at this point in time. We know this. The problem is what the crafting system is capable of doing. We don't know to what amount we can alleviate this pain, but it is something we will be looking into as we move forward with updating Cannith Crafting.

Really tired of the sounds by now, so don't really need sounds or flashes.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

My Last Post here on this current Crafting Thread (the 3rd or 4th since concept introduction), and I'm sure some of you are happy to see me shut down upon this one...

My going assessment of this New Cannith Crafting:

- It is Dead On Arrival (DOA) in its current format.
- There is too much grind for too little reward.
- Level-ups to make new crafting statistically viable has increased to the point that new-to-game players will shun it in contrast to Random and Named Loots over time.
- Flexibility is being shunned without any logical argument, nor formal acknowledgement by the Game Developers and Executive Producer that the New Loot System botched this all up in the first place.
- If you're playing Troll on the Bridge against Flexibility because you think you'll make more Turbine Point revenue for components of the new crafting system, both you and/or your bean counters will be sadly mistaken in future review of manhours expended on this update vs revenue realized.
- I am finding many Guild members to be of similar opinion, and this is not isolated to just myself, and the trend is that Flexibility is a make/break in the decision to even attempt to learn this new crafting system and start/restart the crafting grind.
- Frankly, you're wasting your time on this update, refer to the first comment about DOA.

[Dandonk]

Except they kind of do as the same costs apply to leveling within the system. Crafting will be pretty much DOA if progress is glacially slow and expensive.

Not if we're talking the endgame recipes. It won't be hard to make the system so that you level up to it, and then - when you are capped - you start on these special recipes.

[Nascoe]

My Last Post here on this current Crafting Thread (the 3rd or 4th since concept introduction), and I'm sure some of you are happy to see me shut down upon this one...

My going assessment of this New Cannith Crafting:

- It is Dead On Arrival (DOA) in its current format.
- There is too much grind for too little reward.
- Level-ups to make new crafting statistically viable has increased to the point that new-to-game players will shun it in contrast to Random and Named Loots over time.
- Flexibility is being shunned without any logical argument, nor formal acknowledgement by the Game Developers and Executive Producer that the New Loot System botched this all up in the first place.
- If you're playing Troll on the Bridge against Flexibility because you think you'll make more Turbine Point revenue for components of the new crafting system, both you and/or your bean counters will be sadly mistaken in future review of manhours expended on this update vs revenue realized.
- I am finding many Guild members to be of similar opinion, and this is not isolated to just myself, and the trend is that Flexibility is a make/break in the decision to even attempt to learn this new crafting system and start/restart the crafting grind.
- Frankly, you're wasting your time on this update, refer to the first comment about DOA.

Exactly, good to take a break from the discussion if you are looking at it like that already.

The first 3 points are pretty much conjecture. We do not know exactly how powerfull items will be compared to random loot. We don't have any experience of how hard leveling up will be, nor do we therefore have the abality to give a good evaluation of the level of grind involved with it. After the first lamannia run we might get a better feeling for the grind level as well as the actual power. But I do think that being able to create the combination we want on an item, AND have it at the top end of the range for that effect will be a solid plus. It will be far easier to plan for, and the CC items will be more powerfull than most loot we find because of it, while leaving a potential for that rare find.

As for the Flexible shards, I think the argument NoWorries gave in his post to start this latest discussion, are decent. They want to start without it and see how everything works before deciding whether to put in the work on the flex shards. That could be either because of avoiding extra bugs for now, about resources available as well as actually seeing whether ppl feel it is needed all that much.

Overall, I must say that I have been starting to work on my crafting levels again recently because the system will be updated and will get closer to current random loot levels. I just hope that everything will work and will be incredibly glad of not having to close and re-open the deconstruction window for every other item anymore!

[Arkai]

I just saw speed is out of the system, but, what about the old fashioned melee and ranged alacrity recipes?

Are they out?

[Stoner81]

I just saw speed is out of the system, but, what about the old fashioned melee and ranged alacrity recipes?

Are they out?

Both types of Alactrity are in Group 3.

Stoner81.

[Thrudh]

DDO's foundation has always been about choices. With this new system, choices are intentionally being removed. Players are now being forced to look for random gear if they want their character to be optimized. Some people don't enjoy Cannith Crafting and some people don't enjoy the quest for random gear. I have yet to find exactly what I am looking for with random gear at a given moment and have to settle for one beneficial effect and one non-beneficial effect, leaving me dissatisfied and somewhat frustrated.

I disagree... Random loot, crafted loot, and named loot should all be valuable. It should not be easy to find or craft "optimal" gear. I like the system the devs have designed here.

[Livmo]

To help with the questions and to get everything back into one place, here is a consolidation thread with some additional info. On a big system like this, not all information will be available yet as we are discussing the system while the work is ongoing.

Runearms

Don't have further information on this time, addressing that here as I know it will be a question. Information will be provided as we get to further direction on that point. It is mainly a matter of decided how to adjust the runearms to work with the new system and which effects they will get to craft.

And as always, anything and everything is subject to change for any number of reasons.

I would like to still be able to craft Ranged and Melee Alacrity on Rune Arms once the dust settles if possible. Please and thanks!

http://i.imgur.com/ycrC04V.jpg

[Ebondevil]

If I understand correctly:

They are reducing the Number of Craftables we carry in our Bags
They are increasing the Number of Collectibles we carry in our Bags to compensate which will be used for crafting...

I am worried I'll be in a position where I have loads of spare empty Crafting Bags, and no room for the new Collectibles...

So will we be able to put these new Collectibles in our Crafting Bags/Bank?

[Aelonwy]

I disagree... Random loot, crafted loot, and named loot should all be valuable. It should not be easy to find or craft "optimal" gear. I like the system the devs have designed here.

I like the system they are designing here as well but I do feel it has some room for improvement, and most of that improvement must first be made to the New Random Loot; e.g. ranged weapon damage scaling appropriately, guard damage scaling appropriately, missing properties back in the game, and if the new random loot was simply more flexible on rings such that any stat (str/dex/con/int/wis/cha) could be random generated there then cannith crafting would follow suit. Thereby fulfilling most of my flexibility needs.

Other than that the only issue I have is not being able to craft speed which I could accept if only I'd be allowed to craft 30% striding.

[Thar]

Also the XP curve is changed quite a bit from the old system which can be seen by how much XP it takes to get to 150 now vs how much it did before.

Setting a character to level 70 and crafting ML shards, I had no problem getting to where level 100 shards were above a 40% chance, at which point it seemed most beneficial to focus on those and leveling continued quickly. It did not take an excess amount of recipes or failures to do so.

An example like this, which looks at one of two areas where the big group of recipes is the furthest spread out (and the other one being even lower where there is an easier leveling progression) would instead lend to the argument that if anything needed to be changed on recipe difficulties, it is that another group of some sort would be needed at 85. Since once you do start working on the 100s, every major group shows up in 25 level gaps providing a continuous feed. This wouldn't suggest that all recipes need to be spread out over the whole spectrum.

However, I didn't see any real difficulties getting through this leveling zone.

Arti's will still get +10 levels to crafting?

[Thrudh]

In my guild of 750+ players, why craft? We can loot Random Loots for better gear to collectively place in our Guild Chests

Wow, the game is doing pretty well if you have 750+ players in just your one guild.


There really isn't a logical explanation otherwise, for Turbine Dev's to be limiting new Cannith Crafting to a lesser position than Random Loot, and denying full Flexibility in the system.

Of course there is. At some point (and not really that long, with the insane grinders that populate any MMO), many people will be able to craft at the top level. If crafting is as good as random, then there will be no point to random. Who wouldn't rather build the exact three items, each with the exact 2-3 attributes you want instead of hoping for random to generate them?

Crafting gives you the ability to build exactly what you want, but it shouldn't be the absolute best of the best. The very best Random and Named must still beat crafting.

Now, crafting should allow you to build very good stuff, just not the best.

[Dandonk]

Of course there is. At some point (and not really that long, with the insane grinders that populate any MMO), many people will be able to craft at the top level. If crafting is as good as random, then there will be no point to random. Who wouldn't rather build the exact three items, each with the exact 2-3 attributes you want instead of hoping for random to generate them?

Crafting gives you the ability to build exactly what you want, but it shouldn't be the absolute best of the best. The very best Random and Named must still beat crafting.

Now, crafting should allow you to build very good stuff, just not the best.

Or you could just make the top items require special ingredients that aren't easy to get. Raid drops, perhaps.

If crafting isn't allowed to be neither as powerful individually as randgen, nor have flexibility and special attributes like named, there's very little room in the longer term for CC. So, since I acknowledge that we're getting this version whether I want it or not, I propose CC to be able to make some consumables that add unique (but not over-the-top) bonuses for maxed crafting. This will ensure that crafting stays relevant, even after more and more abundant randgen and better and better named items make the crafted items themselves irrelevant. It will also make the crafting ingredients useful, even when you either have made the items you want, or can't craft anything better than what you have.

[Thrudh]

Or you could just make the top items require special ingredients that aren't easy to get. Raid drops, perhaps.

That's an excellent suggestion.


If crafting isn't allowed to be neither as powerful individually as randgen, nor have flexibility and special attributes like named, there's very little room in the longer term for CC.

It has some flexibility that random lacks because you can build exactly what you want (in limited slots).

[maddong]

Truth be told if they manage to fix the glitch that locks you out of putting items in the deconstructing bar until you close/reopen the crafting UI that alone would be worth it for me.

I'm pretty sure it was fixed in the last patch. Bag lag was also fixed. Opening up my huge bag causes 0 lag now. Deconstructing is faster.

I did get massive lag when applying I think all shards to items or maybe it was just masterful craftsmanship. Kind of weird since my huge bag was in the bank and my other bag had nothing in it that I was crafting with.

[Ebondevil]

If crafting is as good as random, then there will be no point to random.
Random has a purpose, it's for newer players to get started, and for later players to feed into crafting, it also provides plat for players. Beyond that it's 99.9999% junk. Limiting crafting because of that 0.00001% doesn't really make sense.


Crafting gives you the ability to build exactly what you want, but it shouldn't be the absolute best of the best. The very best Random and Named must still beat crafting.

Got to disagree with you here in part:

Raid should beat Named (don't think anyone disagrees with that)
Named should beat Crafting (again I don't see any arguments)
Crafting should beat Random (Effort is taken to make Crafted items, they will cost materials and should cost plat, they should be an investment, they are also it seems going to be reliant on Random Drops of Collectibles as well which potentially limits the system more, there's too many limitations at present)

[dunklezhan]

At some point (and not really that long, with the insane grinders that populate any MMO), many people will be able to craft at the top level.

For themselves. Not for others because of the impossibility of making even the best effects of Cannith Crafting as unbound (its impossible to get a crafting level capable of it, as I understand it). For anyone who hasn't maxed out crafting - and plenty of people wont' because they'll hate it - random loot would still beat Cannith once they get into high epics. Even in heroics - ingredients have to be found, unless you can find a generous crafter.

Seriously, the 'no place for lootgen if top end power is equal' argument holds very little water just because of the fact that the 'equal power invalidates lootgen' would only ever apply to the crafter themselves, and only if you assume guaranteed access to all necessary ingredients for those top level recipes which from the sounds of it is not exactly the plan. It couldn't apply to everyone. And the crafter has after all put all the effort and resources in.

That's without even considering all the other limitations on Cannith and the effect uniqueness that's been put into both systems.

And I'm in favour of all those limitations and differences - I really think they're the right way to balance a system like this - and also the limitation on unbound loot requiring much higher crafting levels, to the point where I'm pretty sure you won't even have a 1% chance of making certain unbound effects.

I even like the way that the most powerful effects that are available bound become non-guaranteed even at max crafting level.

All of that makes sense to me as a way of preserving uniqueness between the two and keeping crafting in check.But because of those limitations and differences, limiting the top end of personal power available to the crafting player just seems arbitrary and completely unnecessary. When I weigh it all up together, the scales seem more or less perfectly balanced... until I add this to the 'cannith limitations' side.

But this argument is dead. I don't know why I even piped up really. Its not like I'm going to have the last word, nor make a difference to the outcome.

Ah well.

I certainly agree with you about named items?

[Aletys]

Greetings!

It is highly disappointing that flexible shards are not going to be a part of this system. The versatility of Cannith Crafting has always been a prominent feature. With time, effort, and money invested in the process, I still believe that we should be able to craft according to the previous flexibility standards.

DDO's foundation has always been about choices. With this new system, choices are intentionally being removed. Players are now being forced to look for random gear if they want their character to be optimized. Some people don't enjoy Cannith Crafting and some people don't enjoy the quest for random gear. I have yet to find exactly what I am looking for with random gear at a given moment and have to settle for one beneficial effect and one non-beneficial effect, leaving me dissatisfied and somewhat frustrated.

I struggle to understand how adding an additional 140 levels/400k xp to spend time, effort, and money on would not STILL include flexible shards. Give players another choice to make. Those who choose to invest time and effort in Cannith Crafting should have the option to optimize their gear. Those who don't do this will have still have the choice of random and named loot to complete their TR life or final build.

Aside from the important issue above, the Cannith Crafting system improvements seem very well thought out to provide players a more efficient and viable choice for gearing once again.

In closing I ask that flexible shards continue to be included as the cornerstone of Cannith Crafting. Thank you for taking to the time to read this, and for continuing to create and maintain a world that I enjoy spending my game time in.

Franghasea

+1

Very well stated. The ability to make flexible shards in current CC requires a considerable level of effort to achieve, and is one of CC's main attractions. Making unbound flexible shards requires even higher crafting levels than bound shards. I don't think any of us expect to be able to make flexible shards at low crafting levels, but they should certainly be available at higher levels.

[Aletys]

Random has a purpose, it's for newer players to get started, and for later players to feed into crafting, it also provides plat for players. Beyond that it's 99.9999% junk. Limiting crafting because of that 0.00001% doesn't really make sense.



Got to disagree with you here in part:

Raid should beat Named (don't think anyone disagrees with that)
Named should beat Crafting (again I don't see any arguments)
Crafting should beat Random (Effort is taken to make Crafted items, they will cost materials and should cost plat, they should be an investment, they are also it seems going to be reliant on Random Drops of Collectibles as well which potentially limits the system more, there's too many limitations at present)


Exactly. No one is going to bother with CC if they can find the equivalent in random lootgen. It will end up in exactly the same situation it is now: Used by a few players to make twink gear for low level toons when you can't find what you need elsewhere. And, with flexible shards being eliminated, combined with the very rigid rules of what stats/skills/etc can be put in which items, it may not even be used for that. Experienced crafters who have already maxed out their current levels will occasionally use it, and everyone else will ignore it as not worth the grind.

Most crafters I know gave up on CC years ago. This will not revive it. Folks who have never crafted may initially try it, and then as the grind sets in, they'll promptly abandon it.

[jalont]

This is one of those times where people on here actually changed my mind. Going into this, I didn't think CC should be more powerful that Random Gen, but now I do. Look, if you want the system to be a success then give it SOMETHING to stand out. I see no reason it shouldn't be better than random loot. This could give us a new economy. Don't mess this up Turbine.

IF you give people a big reason to use CC, then this will be a huge success and people will partake in it. Accumulating random loot takes nothing but running quests on the easiest difficulty. Everyone can do that. Everyone can farm a quest on casual. Give the people that make the effort to actually be crafters something worth the grind.

Imagine an actual economy where people buy and sell essence. Imagine an actual economy where people craft things and sell them on the auction houses.

Why would you want to kill this idea by creating something totally meh?

[SilkofDrasnia]

Exactly. No one is going to bother with CC if they can find the equivalent in random lootgen. It will end up in exactly the same situation it is now: Used by a few players to make twink gear for low level toons when you can't find what you need elsewhere. And, with flexible shards being eliminated, combined with the very rigid rules of what stats/skills/etc can be put in which items, it may not even be used for that. Experienced crafters who have already maxed out their current levels will occasionally use it, and everyone else will ignore it as not worth the grind.

Most crafters I know gave up on CC years ago. This will not revive it. Folks who have never crafted may initially try it, and then as the grind sets in, they'll promptly abandon it.

Indeed!

[jalont]

Most crafters I know gave up on CC years ago. This will not revive it. Folks who have never crafted may initially try it, and then as the grind sets in, they'll promptly abandon it.

I do think we have to be careful when talking about grind here. When I finally decided to max my crafting, I maxed everything in a day. Seriously. It was incredibly frustrating and annoying because of crafting lag, but it wasn't really what I consider a grind. Of the annoying loot-centric grinds in the game, maxing crafting took the least time.

[Gremmlynn]

Not if we're talking the endgame recipes. It won't be hard to make the system so that you level up to it, and then - when you are capped - you start on these special recipes.What's an endgame recipe in this system though? The level of power is mostly controlled by the ML shards.

[Gremmlynn]

Or you could just make the top items require special ingredients that aren't easy to get. Raid drops, perhaps.First off, I don't know how this could be done, other than to make the upper ML shards need those rare ingredients.

Secondly, I would be opposed to them being raid drops. That would basically give a monopoly for both the best named and crafted gear to the raid grinders. Frankly, I see crafting to be more of a soft core, informal alternative to the raid grinding play style.

[Gremmlynn]

Random has a purpose, it's for newer players to get started, and for later players to feed into crafting, it also provides plat for players. Beyond that it's 99.9999% junk. Limiting crafting because of that 0.00001% doesn't really make sense.I have to disagree. It adds rarity to the top end items. If Crafting allowed the same "ML 40" cap, pretty much all ML 30 gear would be ML40 in power. Even as proposed, it pretty much all will be ML34 in power.

[Gremmlynn]

For themselves. Not for others because of the impossibility of making even the best effects of Cannith Crafting as unbound (its impossible to get a crafting level capable of it, as I understand it). It will, just not at a 100% success rate from, what we've been told.

[Gremmlynn]

This is one of those times where people on here actually changed my mind. Going into this, I didn't think CC should be more powerful that Random Gen, but now I do. Look, if you want the system to be a success then give it SOMETHING to stand out. I see no reason it shouldn't be better than random loot. This could give us a new economy. Don't mess this up Turbine.

IF you give people a big reason to use CC, then this will be a huge success and people will partake in it. Accumulating random loot takes nothing but running quests on the easiest difficulty. Everyone can do that. Everyone can farm a quest on casual. Give the people that make the effort to actually be crafters something worth the grind.

Imagine an actual economy where people buy and sell essence. Imagine an actual economy where people craft things and sell them on the auction houses.

Why would you want to kill this idea by creating something totally meh?An astral shard economy maybe.

But any chance of a widespread plat economy is pretty dead due to the ease of getting plat at higher levels and the inherent caps in place (character and AH).

Even at my slow ass pace, making half a million plat over a weekend just from vendor trashing what I loot out of epic quests is about the norm. That's ~1/8th the character cap as a side effect of general playing over a weekend. Actually farming would be better. How can any sort of trade economy ever compete with that? What sort of prices would need be set to make it even worth the effort to deal with the AH UI?

[Gremmlynn]

I do think we have to be careful when talking about grind here. When I finally decided to max my crafting, I maxed everything in a day. Seriously. It was incredibly frustrating and annoying because of crafting lag, but it wasn't really what I consider a grind. Of the annoying loot-centric grinds in the game, maxing crafting took the least time.For me it was something I accomplished over ~3 years of, what I would consider, very light grind when things were slow in game otherwise. So, I agree, it doesn't really require one to grind, as I understand the term.

[Aletys]

I do think we have to be careful when talking about grind here. When I finally decided to max my crafting, I maxed everything in a day. Seriously. It was incredibly frustrating and annoying because of crafting lag, but it wasn't really what I consider a grind. Of the annoying loot-centric grinds in the game, maxing crafting took the least time.

But you've probably been collecting the mats for years (I'm assuming that, or you wouldn't have been able to do it). I had been playing the game just a few months when I started crafting. I hadn't been keeping the mats because I hadn't planned to do any crafting. It took me nearly 2 years of deconning every single item I got, keeping all the essences & collectibles I picked up, buying mats off the AH when I could afford it, & making shards whenever I had enough mats to do so, in order to get to close to cap.

I know many players who simply toss their essences because they don't want to clutter their inventory/bank with bags full of something they don't have a use for. For anyone who doesn't have a ton of mats already, it's going to be a real grind.

Also, because they're introducing new collectibles for many of the recipes, we may still be grinding the quests to get the mats, even if we've got a ton of the existing mats.

[Ebondevil]

I have to disagree. It adds rarity to the top end items. If Crafting allowed the same "ML 40" cap, pretty much all ML 30 gear would be ML40 in power. Even as proposed, it pretty much all will be ML34 in power.

The way I personally play I doubt I'll see ML 40 items, and I have little interest in ML 30+ items as I only sit at level cap just long enough to get the seeds to ETR. (Even getting to that point takes me a while as I can barely muster the effort to grind through one epic quest a day as things stand)

I'm more concerned about the effects that aren't being included at all in a misguided attempt to make Random loot seem more desirable.

I would however much rather see a system where we can directly craft up to ML 30, and then after that include the possibility to upgrade that crafted loot to ML 40 making the items a larger investment.

Having the possibility of upgrading from ML 1 all the way to ML 40 would be nice as well of course.

Regardless, the 31-40 stages should be possible, but that doesn't mean they should be easy.



Other options which could be interesting would be to have crafting shards of normally un-craftable types drop as random loot, eg Banishing/Vorpal/etc Shards which you could then add to a crafted item.

[Ballyspringer]

Exactly. No one is going to bother with CC if they can find the equivalent in random lootgen. It will end up in exactly the same situation it is now: Used by a few players to make twink gear for low level toons when you can't find what you need elsewhere. And, with flexible shards being eliminated, combined with the very rigid rules of what stats/skills/etc can be put in which items, it may not even be used for that. Experienced crafters who have already maxed out their current levels will occasionally use it, and everyone else will ignore it as not worth the grind.

Most crafters I know gave up on CC years ago. This will not revive it. Folks who have never crafted may initially try it, and then as the grind sets in, they'll promptly abandon it.

yep - for me flexible was the last carrot on the stick making it a maybe I might bother as it could be good for some specific builds/toons due to working around named/raid loot. I just don't see any reason at all from what has been released to even bother with it, there's nothing at all that makes it stand out on it's own as being worth the grind compared to random/raid/named loot.

When the old system came out it had 3 great perks that all made it worth grinding for:

it had the same top level stats as the best possible random drops at the time
it could reduce ML of random gen by 2 for stats
it had flexible to make things fit into any build

And even with those three perks, a lot of people never bothered with it due to the grind, it's a niche thing that will never be for everyone - which I liked how that was set up. It was a grind, it took time, but when you got to higher levels it paid off!

The current update has none of those from what I've seen that has been released (well except the grind) - it's just an inferior system to all others and I'll say DOA for me unless what ends up actually being released is different, which I'm not holding my breath for.

On a side note I can't believe you're adding in even more collectibles! how many current collectibles are worthless? Why not use what's already in the game including the ones created just for crafting already? Or at least lets clean up collectibles, make the game stop giving the worthless ones and replace them with the new ones if you're truly hell-bent on creating more (which you are). If I was a new player the collectibles and what you should keep vs not keep is daunting - especially since newer players just don't have the bank/bag/storage toon space to spare for it so they have to be selective on what they keep. C'mon give us a break!

[Ulfo]

Old Cannith Crafting went to level 20, only had 2 effects, and didn't have insightful.

Wrong.
Currently 3 effects can be crafted:

http://s018.radikal.ru/i525/1607/42/d18625fa453e.jpg

Lol, i'm played in DDO about half-year or so, and know about issue more, than developer.

I think, it in the best way shows the current deplorable state of affairs with CC. 8)

[Burdigalos]

Hi Noworries,
This cannith crafting revamp looks good.
it will be simpler and use less different item and essences.

There are many old non scaling effects that are not scaling and do not show up in the new scaling effects list like:
Secret door detection
Keen
Mobility
Holy
Deathblock
Dusk
Good luck
And many others..
Would it be possible to provide a complete list of the new available prefix and suffixes so we have a better idea of what combination is possible?
Cheers,

[SisAmethyst]

Flex Shards

The plan is to not launch with flex shards. We think there is a good balance that can be found between Random, Named, Crafted loot and flex shards will knock some of that out of the way. The Cannith system will be a bit different from before and some of the power and versatility is tough to see without getting your hands on the system.


I understand the point behind this but sad to see them go. How about a compromis of saying Felxible shards will only allow 2 effects. Make the flexible attribute a hidden 3rd effect[i], this way a random loot item could still be better and you give players a choice.

If this is still too powerful put the shards then make it use a special ingredient like with the master crafted items. If this still isn't enough put it in th last group, which mean you have only a percent chance to actually craft it, but please don't completly abandon the flexible shards.

Additional question: we know what happen with the existing ingredients, but what happens with the existing shards crafted?

PS: For recap, currently standard stat. shards are restricted to:

CON : Ring, Neck, Belt
STR : Ring, Gloves, Belt
WIS : Ring, Neck, Head
CHA : Ring, [i]Cloak, Head
DEX : Ring, Gloves, Boot
INT : Ring, Google, Head

This especially heavily limit the crafting on Cloak, Boot and Google. So an other option would be to at least open up a second shard for those items.

[JoyfulEagle]

Also the XP curve is changed quite a bit from the old system which can be seen by how much XP it takes to get to 150 now vs how much it did before.

Setting a character to level 70 and crafting ML shards, I had no problem getting to where level 100 shards were above a 40% chance, at which point it seemed most beneficial to focus on those and leveling continued quickly. It did not take an excess amount of recipes or failures to do so.

An example like this, which looks at one of two areas where the big group of recipes is the furthest spread out (and the other one being even lower where there is an easier leveling progression) would instead lend to the argument that if anything needed to be changed on recipe difficulties, it is that another group of some sort would be needed at 85. Since once you do start working on the 100s, every major group shows up in 25 level gaps providing a continuous feed. This wouldn't suggest that all recipes need to be spread out over the whole spectrum.

However, I didn't see any real difficulties getting through this leveling zone.

As a Dev, you have unlimited resources (specifically, the new collectables). So, you can keep making the same shards indefinitely. But, if we need to make the same shard 30 times, and then the next shard 30 time, and the next... we might have to run the same few quests a LOT to gather the collectables. It would be much better if we had a variety of recipes to choose from, so we could use a variety of different collectables.

Also, this is a risky thing to push. It is not likely to be tested thoroughly in Lamania, because grinding levels is generally very time consuming. And even more so if we need to run the quests to gather the collectables. So, most people are not going to have a "fair" way to judge this on Lamania. If we don't need to run the quests to get the collectables (because Lamania has a quick-buy feature), then we also don't get a "fair" assessment of the work involved.

I am not quite sure what you are talking about with "another group of some sort". Perhaps you would repeat earlier recipes (like is done in the existing crafting system), at different levels. That would be fine.

[Hilltrot]

At least for now you can crunch those into more essences. That is what I am going to do.

so, key an item to then shard it and then turn it into a small amount of essence. . .

Do this 400 times at least.

Please tell me you are being sarcastic.

[Hilltrot]

As a Dev, you have unlimited resources (specifically, the new collectables). So, you can keep making the same shards indefinitely. But, if we need to make the same shard 30 times, and then the next shard 30 time, and the next... we might have to run the same few quests a LOT to gather the collectables. It would be much better if we had a variety of recipes to choose from, so we could use a variety of different collectables.

Also, this is a risky thing to push. It is not likely to be tested thoroughly in Lamania, because grinding levels is generally very time consuming. And even more so if we need to run the quests to gather the collectables. So, most people are not going to have a "fair" way to judge this on Lamania. If we don't need to run the quests to get the collectables (because Lamania has a quick-buy feature), then we also don't get a "fair" assessment of the work involved.

I am not quite sure what you are talking about with "another group of some sort". Perhaps you would repeat earlier recipes (like is done in the existing crafting system), at different levels. That would be fine.

No, I disagree. A minimal level shard can be used for any number of enchants. An enchant can be used for any level. What I end up with inside my gargantuan ingredient bag is far more useful in the end than all the potpourri that's currently in my bag.

A grind is a grind when it comes to crafting. It's not like multiple adventures. It's hitting a button repeatedly. And hitting a blue button instead of a green one will not make the CC grind any more "fun".

The idea with CC is that you gain the mats through regular adventuring. Also the in game store and AH SE are options. Believe me, someone will grind them for you is you have the shards.

I am really looking forward to the new CC.

[Gremmlynn]

so, key an item to then shard it and then turn it into a small amount of essence. . .

Do this 400 times at least.

Please tell me you are being sarcastic.No, just place the (stack of) shard(s) into the deconstruction station (and set the machine to decon the stack size) and hit the button.

Do this once for each stack of shards.

I'm thinking not knowing this may be why you have 400+ shards stacked up. Most decon most, if not all, the shards they make for xp purposes as soon as they get done in order to recover some essences for more leveling.

[rehakp]

So lets see.
You are reducing essences to one type. Because its too complicated to have what ... about 20 essence types.
You are reducing schools to one. Because its too complicated to have 3 crafting schools.
You are reducing tiered effects shards to one shard. Because its too complicated to pay attention and not making STR+6 instead of STR+2 shard.
Oooook i get it there.

BUT THEN

You are introducing 5 new tiers of collectibles. Whitch there are literally hundreds of them already and this way they become thousands ?
Because having literally hundreds of them already is not complicated enough ?

... facepalm here ...
... start sarcasm ...
Im super enthusiastic about this.
Cant wait to discover new super simple crafting with ONE essence type, ONE school, less shards and thousand new collectible types i need to farm before i can even start crafting.
... end sarcasm ...

[Ballyspringer]

So lets see.
You are reducing essences to one type. Because its too complicated to have what ... about 20 essence types.
You are reducing schools to one. Because its too complicated to have 3 crafting schools.
You are reducing tiered effects shards to one shard. Because its too complicated to pay attention and not making STR+6 instead of STR+2 shard.
Oooook i get it there.

BUT THEN

You are introducing 5 new tiers of collectibles. Whitch there are literally hundreds of them already and this way they become thousands ?
Because having literally hundreds of them already is not complicated enough ?

... facepalm here ...
... start sarcasm ...
Im super enthusiastic about this.
Cant wait to discover new super simple crafting with ONE essence type, ONE school, less shards and thousand new collectible types i need to farm before i can even start crafting.
... end sarcasm ...




+1

The contradiction with adding new collectibles is just so bad it's funny to me too, until you start looking at everything since and including when MOTU came out - screw everything that was done or made prior to what we just did now. Anything already in game is worthless or highly marginalized so you have to get all new stuff across the board with no apologizes or talk about how anything created prior to then can be made relevant again.

They do want to simplify things, but they also want to make it so anything created or done prior to whatever they are doing right now is obsolete and no one can have anything comparable already, and everyone in the game starts with the same clean slate new player and old player alike. (Which is also why there has been so much F'in power creep since MOTU)

Sorry to be so doom and gloom and you can all stop reading now to avoid the following rant if you wish as it has no further points:


Lots of speculation here since it's not concrete and in-game yet, but with the xp curve on getting levels being made easier than it currently is from what it sounds like for crafting (based on what has been said here although who knows for sure I guess) using that same thought process it makes sense that there is no consideration of how much went into getting old xp vs what will be new xp, so it's just a 1 for 1 xp to xp conversion when the schools merge and levels go up. So that anyone who didn't put in any time prior to the new shiny will be able to get right to where current max crafters are in a hurry easily so everyone basically starts in a similar spot - and all needing new collectibles to go with it.

I remember when it was found they were stealth nerfing the e-claw set back when to no longer stack and the only reason they came back with on why they were doing that was because it was too confusing for the player base to have more than just a couple different types of damage sources so a stacking untyped was just too hard to understand. But all of the stacking stuff that they have now including insightful, exceptional, ED's, enhancements, and epic feats that don't all show up on the character panel is much simpler... right....but then the imitation yet better than old epic S/S/S stuff from eveningstar started to show up and it all made sense, they couldn't have options in game other than their new shiny stuff. So adding in new collectibles for a new crafting system when you put it into that same thought process only makes sense even though it's a contradiction to making things easier and less complicated.

[slarden]

From my experience and info gathering:
Level 33 +15
Level 36 +16
Level 39 +17

I don't know about insight bonuses.

very helpful, thank you!

[NoWorries]

You are introducing 5 new tiers of collectibles. Whitch there are literally hundreds of them already and this way they become thousands ?
Because having literally hundreds of them already is not complicated enough ?


Nope, there are already 4.5 tiers of collectables in the system. We are adding more to make a full tier 5 and a tier 6. There are around 105 collectables currently, some of which are specifically for certain content. An additional 25 collectables at the top levels are being added.




Lots of speculation here since it's not concrete and in-game yet, but with the xp curve on getting levels being made easier than it currently is from what it sounds like for crafting (based on what has been said here although who knows for sure I guess) using that same thought process it makes sense that there is no consideration of how much went into getting old xp vs what will be new xp, so it's just a 1 for 1 xp to xp conversion when the schools merge and levels go up. So that anyone who didn't put in any time prior to the new shiny will be able to get right to where current max crafters are in a hurry easily so everyone basically starts in a similar spot - and all needing new collectibles to go with it.


People who have never crafted before will still have to earn 240k xp to catch up to people who were maxed. Changing the curve simply changes what that amount correlates to, it doesn't mean new players don't have to earn what existing players did.

[Tarinia]

yep - for me flexible was the last carrot on the stick making it a maybe I might bother as it could be good for some specific builds/toons due to working around named/raid loot. I just don't see any reason at all from what has been released to even bother with it, there's nothing at all that makes it stand out on it's own as being worth the grind compared to random/raid/named loot.

When the old system came out it had 3 great perks that all made it worth grinding for:

it had the same top level stats as the best possible random drops at the time
it could reduce ML of random gen by 2 for stats
it had flexible to make things fit into any build

And even with those three perks, a lot of people never bothered with it due to the grind, it's a niche thing that will never be for everyone - which I liked how that was set up. It was a grind, it took time, but when you got to higher levels it paid off!

The current update has none of those from what I've seen that has been released (well except the grind) - it's just an inferior system to all others and I'll say DOA for me unless what ends up actually being released is different, which I'm not holding my breath for.

On a side note I can't believe you're adding in even more collectibles! how many current collectibles are worthless? Why not use what's already in the game including the ones created just for crafting already? Or at least lets clean up collectibles, make the game stop giving the worthless ones and replace them with the new ones if you're truly hell-bent on creating more (which you are). If I was a new player the collectibles and what you should keep vs not keep is daunting - especially since newer players just don't have the bank/bag/storage toon space to spare for it so they have to be selective on what they keep. C'mon give us a break!

I can only applaude your mail and also ask to the devs- please make the new cannith crafting worth it and give it the sam benefits then the old system:

1. more flexibility in slots
2. possibility to get some powerfull effects earlier in level
3. same top level stats and other effects as random collectibles (without loot day and potion enhancement possibilities)
4. no new collectibels- revive the importance of older collectibels and give them new use- for example epic scrolls, shards.. or just random collectibels.
5. no bigger grind then the old system- allow the old to be used in addition- why delete it without getting the old advantages
6. Make runearms or other loot with slots (cannith loot) immediatly usable with the new system
7. give older players who could use the old system the same edge as the had it before (exps, same collectibels...)5

Best regards
Tarinia

[DYWYPI]

I'll probably have more to add later on sometime but I'm a bit short on time at the moment.

Anybody that thought there wouldn't likely be more Cannith Collectables introduced by the Turbine Developers were naïve to say the least... Especially after they decided upon 1 'Cannith Essence' to rules them all; plus an increased range of Crafting levels. I cannot blame their logic there for introducing more Collectables (after unfortunately, 1 Crafting School was chosen).

Albeit that was one of the reasons I said; I'd have preferred 3 Schools because Essences are not the major limiting factor to gaining Cannith Crafting levels, its the requirement of other Cannith Crafting Ingredients and Cannith Crafting Collectables.


[...] An additional 25 collectables at the top levels are being added. ...

NoWorries, can you explain what you mean by "an additional 25 collectables" I presume you are referring to Cannith Crafting Collectables only and dropping/appearing at Epic Level quests?

Furthermore unless I've completely misunderstood that; you don't mean you are creating another 25 Completely New collectables. I'd presume you are creating maybe; 5 or 6 completely new Collectables. Plus recycling some Cannith Collectables as per: http://ddowiki.com/page/Crafting_Collectables

Now, if you are planning on introducing those additional Cannith Collectables (or Ingredients) that would only appear in VIP Adventure Packs. Then that obviously supports discrimination against the F2P players and creates an unlevel crafting-field.

[Cleanincubus]

Nope, there are already 4.5 tiers of collectables in the system. We are adding more to make a full tier 5 and a tier 6. There are around 105 collectables currently, some of which are specifically for certain content. An additional 25 collectables at the top levels are being added.
What?! I was expecting 1-5 new collectables, not 25. This is going too far. Unless the crafting storage bank space is going to be fixed, so everything stacks beyond 99, and/or bags retroactively get larger to hold more & stack more mats, this is a big issue. Where are we supposed to collect 25 new collectables? Every one of my characters (7 of them) have at least a small and medium collectable bag filled to the max. They contain no Event collectables, no collectables used in Cannith Crafting, no collectable used for Stone of Change rituals, no Mysterious Remnants, no anything other than randomly collected collectables. Forty-two spaces to contain the 64 existing collectables that do nothing other than get traded to Collectors for augments and such. That's on top of 207 of my 262 Crafting Storage space that's filled (I had to throw away useful collectables because they were taking up too much space.)

[CSQ]

I'm looking forward to the new Cannith Crafting changes, because I think they'll offer me what they offer in the new system without some of the clumsiness of the old.

I've used Cannith Crafting in the past to fill very particular niches in my gear sets. For example, I usually keep a keen weapon crafted for critical builds at low level or certain spell power shards on stuff for builds that aren't full casters but might appreciate having some boosts on other gear. While the new Cannith Crafting won't replace named loot in my loadouts probably, it looks like it will offer decent flexibility without some of the limitations of old CC, which is that it becomes next to worthless at higher levels because of new loot gen and named loot. While I still expect named loot to be the top priority, being able to round out limitations with a more flexible gear level sounds like it will make CC more viable throughout, rather than just to address early deficiencies at low level.

[vms4ever]

What?! I was expecting 1-5 new collectables, not 25. This is going too far. Unless the crafting storage bank space is going to be fixed, so everything stacks beyond 99, and/or bags retroactively get larger to hold more & stack more mats, this is a big issue. Where are we supposed to collect 25 new collectables? Every one of my characters (7 of them) have at least a small and medium collectable bag filled to the max. They contain no Event collectables, no collectables used in Cannith Crafting, no collectable used for Stone of Change rituals, no Mysterious Remnants, no anything other than randomly collected collectables. Forty-two spaces to contain the 64 existing collectables that do nothing other than get traded to Collectors for augments and such. That's on top of 207 of my 262 Crafting Storage space that's filled (I had to throw away useful collectables because they were taking up too much space.)

Public Service Announcement: 150 planar shards from the subterrane can be traded for a large collectables bag (80 items, stack size 1000). Huge collectables bags are available from the DDO store (waiting for a sale is recommended), 200 items, stack size 100.

The planar shards are bound but the large bags are not bound at all and can be sold and traded between players. I don't think any of my non-bank toons are using medium bags anymore. (I know none are using small bags.)

[JoyfulEagle]

No, I disagree. A minimal level shard can be used for any number of enchants. An enchant can be used for any level. What I end up with inside my gargantuan ingredient bag is far more useful in the end than all the potpourri that's currently in my bag.

A grind is a grind when it comes to crafting. It's not like multiple adventures. It's hitting a button repeatedly. And hitting a blue button instead of a green one will not make the CC grind any more "fun".

The idea with CC is that you gain the mats through regular adventuring. Also the in game store and AH SE are options. Believe me, someone will grind them for you is you have the shards.

I am really looking forward to the new CC.

I am also looking forward to the new CC. However, I am concerned that the ability to level up, for a range of levels at 20, 70, 120, 170, 220, 270, 320, and 370, will not be sufficiently tested by the community. Imagine that you needed 30 lightning-split soarwood to continue leveling up (and everyone else trying to make the same levels needed them too). That would put a big hurt on. If Lamania allows you to quick buy them, then people wouldn't know how hard they are to come by. That is a big risk.

I am not suggesting that we eliminate the need to gather collectables. I think it separates the casual crafters from the serious ones. I am OK with that. But, I don't want to be stuck with needing a single collectable that I just can't seem to get, in order to continue leveling.

[Cantor]

Some people have said that there shouldn't be collectibles that only come from certain packs. I think there is no reason not to, why shouldn't certain shards be gated by having a pack just like certain named items are? Seems reasonable to me maybe even preferable, might mean that you could farm a certain area if you need a certain ingredient.

[dunklezhan]

NoWorries, can you explain what you mean by "an additional 25 collectables" I presume you are referring to Cannith Crafting Collectables only and dropping/appearing at Epic Level quests?

Furthermore unless I've completely misunderstood that; you don't mean you are creating another 25 Completely New collectables. I'd presume you are creating maybe; 5 or 6 completely new Collectables. Plus recycling some Cannith Collectables as per: http://ddowiki.com/page/Crafting_Collectables

Now, if you are planning on introducing those additional Cannith Collectables (or Ingredients) that would only appear in VIP Adventure Packs. Then that obviously supports discrimination against the F2P players and creates an unlevel crafting-field.

My interpretation is that there will be tiers of collectibles and just like now certain collectibles are more likely to drop from certain collectible spot types (e.g. bookcases drop more of certain kinds of items than others, and may not drop any of a certain kind of item). If they weren't level gated already (and from No Worries' post I think they must be) then they will be from now on but beyond that I am pretty sure that specific collectibles are linked to the collectible spot type, not the collectible spot itself.

Of the new collectibles and tiers, if they say they're doing 25 new ones then they are. Sure, they might be weaksauce variants like 'epic glittering dust', but they'll be new. Half of the first new tier will be existing ingredients that probably come from the old epic packs, and the remaining will just represent the collectibles that might drop frmo a particular spot type when encountered in that range.

In this way, a bookshelf at L1 will drop different things to a bookshelf at L25, but equally that L1 bookshelf will drop different things to a L1 pile of moss.

So yes, if they only put a particular collectible spot type in a particular paid for adventure pack then it is gated by pack too, although no more so than named items, and I can't say that I've ever noticed them doing that to up now.

It seems far more likely that L25 bookshelves (or whatever) will be spread reasonably liberally throughout L25 content, and some will likely end up in F2P quests, if there are any at that level.

If we do find particular collectibles only collectible spots in certain quests (and not only as end rewards as we see now for rare CC ingredients) then I agree that's a Bad Thing and I Do Not Want.

However, if that happens, it more likely to happen by accident if you ask me - it just seems too much for them to reasonably keep track of and also increased risk of bugs. I can't imagine they don't see that.

On the other hand... the "bean counter" element has massively disappointed me before.

[Ebondevil]

So yes, if they only put a particular collectible spot type in a particular paid for adventure pack then it is gated by pack too, although no more so than named items, and I can't say that I've ever noticed them doing that to up now.

I believe there's a certain set of collectibles that currently only drop in Tangleroot and related quests, but primarily in the Explorer area, which aren't F2P, but they're the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

[Marupal]

Flex shards are going to be missed but it's better if crafting augments random loot, instead of outright competing and overpowering. Especially if Cannith is going to allow 3 affixes on it. Nice!

Liking the "one school, one essence" bit. Better clarity and consolidation.

Having the ML of the item tied to the crafting level. Excellent change.

Armor in the low and mid heroics only have limited options. Is this going to be padded out with Cannith a bit? Even if it means tossing in dragonscales or soverign runes to make a decent ML 10 armor? (just an example)

Shards of Potential gone? /happydance! Crafting should be a bit of a time sink but something about having to stop to make a shard of potential killed it. Cleaning outhouses in house K would have been about as much fun. :)

Are the xp penalties for repeatedly building the same shard still going to be there? Feel kinda helpless watching that kick in under the current system.

Scaling effects. Thank! You!

Any chance of adding some unique proc effects to Cannith crafting? (besides fearsome). Something theme appropriate? Cannith has a unique enough feel to it, plenty of room to let the imagination run with what you could do.

Ranged ammunition from Cannith crafting: please make it cost effective, maybe even trivial to make. Currently I look at it and walk away "why bother?"



...
3. Potion/wand/scroll crafting.. with increasing level tiers and even higher UMD tiers to use for non-aligned classes..

A very cool idea!

[SisAmethyst]

Nope, there are already 4.5 tiers of collectables in the system. We are adding more to make a full tier 5 and a tier 6. There are around 105 collectables currently, some of which are specifically for certain content. An additional 25 collectables at the top levels are being added.
...

Are there any plans to use existing things other then collectibles like gems gatherd from the trap soul spell, at least as an alternative recipe to give them actually some use?

[JoyfulEagle]

Some people have said that there shouldn't be collectibles that only come from certain packs. I think there is no reason not to, why shouldn't certain shards be gated by having a pack just like certain named items are? Seems reasonable to me maybe even preferable, might mean that you could farm a certain area if you need a certain ingredient.

You can't get Marks of Cannith without the Cannith pack. I think your point is assumed already. But, just in case you thought that was the point I was making earlier, it was not. Some collectables are harder to come by than others, even if you are VIP and have the expantions.

[DYWYPI]

I was also considering those current 6 BtA Cannith Collectables (http://ddowiki.com/page/Cannith_Crafting#Crafting_components_from_treasure _and_vendors), and several Ingredients only available from Adventure Packs.

F2P can actually get 'Mark of House Cannith' without 'Secrets of the Artificers' but you have to get 50 Cannith Favour (http://ddowiki.com/page/House_Cannith), which would need you [F2P] to successfully complete at least some Cannith Challenges - not always easy.

Since it was raised there are only 10 F2P Epic [21+] standard quests: '3 Web of Chaos quests' (Aka LoD), A Study in Sable, Brothers of the Forge and The Mask of Deception. Plus the 3 Legendary 'U31 Gnomework' quests and Legendary Tempest's Spine (Raid).

Yes, Dunklezhan Collectable source (http://ddowiki.com/page/Collectable_source#By_Tier_and_Node_Type) is the type of thing I'd expect. Albeit amongst the first 3 threads NoWorries on several occasions uses double-negatives to explain things... So I'm not fully sure if that meant; he was creating [25] extra brand-spanking-new, i.e. never seen in DDO before collectables, or also (re)using current collectables from elsewhere in the current game, e.g. Vial of Contagion (to use as a new additional NoWorries Cannith Collectable), etc. I suspect a combination of both.

[Gratch]

You can't get Marks of Cannith without the Cannith pack.

Unbound Marks of House Cannith (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mark_of_House_Cannith) drop in treasure across quest levels I believe (though mostly in mid level heroics), similar to Portable Hole drop rate. You can find them on the AH sometimes. I think I've personally seen Unbounds in the 5-10 range for myself since they were added to the game with house C. I always put them on the AH.

[Zistra]

Flexibility: As long as every stat/effect has a minimum of 3 slots it can go in, I think we're covered for build flexibility around named items. Any that don't already should be available on rings. I'd say that's a minimum goal. Means you can work around two named items in the slots for a particular effect, but a third will limit your choices. Alternatively, adding "Flexibility" as one of the three effects allows for the build diversity some request, while trading that flexibility for a suitable amount of another flexibility or power: the third effect.

ML Shards: It would be nice if we could replace the ML shard on an item with a new one without starting over, even if the cost in mats was high. It would allow us to decide whether it's in our interest to have one +Str item and re-level it from time to time, or to devote the storage space to a range of them.

Other flexibility: Why stick with prefixes and suffixes? Why not let one of the advantages of Cannith Crafting be that you could craft two "suffix" effects on the same item? It fits with your "simplification" goal, and with no difference in essences associated, one of the logical justifications for the distinction is at least weakened. One of the most complex things about CC for newbies is understanding what's a prefix, what's a suffix, and why they can't go together on the same item. Get rid of this! This one change would guarantee CC would never be invalidated by random loot... some combinations would only be possible in CC items. Pretty sure that wouldn't make CC OP compared to the other systems.

Storage issues: This system trades freeing up some space in Ingredient bags for using additional space in Collectibles bags. Will bag sizes change to reflect this? Have you studied the effects on people's actual storage use? For me, it will be trivial: I have the bag storage in the bank. That's not true of everyone. On the other storage issue side, while the variety of items that go in Ingredient bags will go down, the singular crafting essence will now be desired in much higher quantities: on a straight trade, the 20 or so existing essences at a stacking quantity of 1000 ea. would become one stack of 20,000. Existing bags won't support that change. Will we be allowed multiple stacks? Or how will this be handled?

Collectibles: If Cannith Crafting is not intended to be a P2W perk, it will be important that all collectibles are available in at least one F2P area or acquisition method.

[SisAmethyst]

...At some point (and not really that long, with the insane grinders that populate any MMO), many people will be able to craft at the top level. If crafting is as good as random, then there will be no point to random.

This logic can easily be turned upside down: "At some point everyone looted or bought from the AH all the uber random loot one desires and don't need to craft anymore" ... so I disagree


For themselves. Not for others because of the impossibility of making even the best effects of Cannith Crafting as unbound (its impossible to get a crafting level capable of it, as I understand it). For anyone who hasn't maxed out crafting - and plenty of people wont' because they'll hate it - random loot would still beat Cannith once they get into high epics. Even in heroics - ingredients have to be found, unless you can find a generous crafter...

Indeed and with all the collectibles, base items and special ingredient not to speak of the needed crafting XP and level there is already a huge border and limitation to overcome. Sure some people that are long in the game or exploited the early days got max crafting but for all new players getting upwards is a hard stoney way.

So indeed named and raid loot should always be better, but crafted items should already from the effort to do them be at least on par with random loot. As said, limit it to to effects if some would combinations would fall to strong then you would need to find that special blank with an augment slot to counter it.

[dunklezhan]

I believe there's a certain set of collectibles that currently only drop in Tangleroot and related quests, but primarily in the Explorer area, which aren't F2P, but they're the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

aren't they used in the pack NPC hand in though, rather than Cannith Crafting? I guess they're probably used in both. But that clearly wasn't a deliberate design choice in the placement of the collectibles, given how many years were inbetween that pack and CC. Heck, between that pack and F2P. When that pack came in it was a Sub-only game. It may well have been original content, I don't know, I started the week after F2P launched.

[dunklezhan]

Sure some people that are long in the game or exploited the early days got max crafting but for all new players getting upwards is a hard stoney way.


Heck I'm just now scrabbling for the last few levels of CC, and I got into it on day one. Of course, if I'd TR'd my artificer at some point in the last 2 years, I'd have spotted that he wasn't actually on max crafting and so I was stiffing myself of XP due to his bonus crafting levels.

Ah well, c'est la vie, neh?

[Ebondevil]

aren't they used in the pack NPC hand in though, rather than Cannith Crafting? I guess they're probably used in both. But that clearly wasn't a deliberate design choice in the placement of the collectibles, given how many years were inbetween that pack and CC. Heck, between that pack and F2P. When that pack came in it was a Sub-only game. It may well have been original content, I don't know, I started the week after F2P launched.

I believe the Lily petal is one that is used.

There's also the special End reward list collectible items which are almost exclusively from Paid content, the only exception being the Mystical bottle which can be gained from Hiding in Plain Sight. Personally the limited means of acquisition for those ingredients put me off making using them in the Current Crafting.

If something is that Rare I'll save it for when I absolutely need it, which generally means I never actually use it.

[azrael4h]

Unbound Marks of House Cannith (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mark_of_House_Cannith) drop in treasure across quest levels I believe (though mostly in mid level heroics), similar to Portable Hole drop rate. You can find them on the AH sometimes. I think I've personally seen Unbounds in the 5-10 range for myself since they were added to the game with house C. I always put them on the AH.

I can confirm this as well. I always kept them, even though I never used old CC for anything but filling out low level gear during TRs, and lately, not even bothering to do that much any more.

I've seen far more Portable Holes though. I pulled two just in my latest TR. Maybe about 15 or so total. I've given a few away, but most stand ready to fill in until I can do Gianthold.

My thought on the new collectibles is that in all of the FR content, there aren't any. So most of the new stuff will likely come from that to account for the fact that they never had any to begin with.

[Ulfo]

Since it was raised there are only 10 F2P Epic [21+] standard quests: '3 Web of Chaos quests' (Aka LoD), A Study in Sable, Brothers of the Forge and The Mask of Deception. Plus the 3 Legendary 'U31 Gnomework' quests and Legendary Tempest's Spine (Raid).

Legendary HoX f2p too ( normal HoX - no, and it's very strange). 8)


I've seen far more Portable Holes though.

Confirmed. Fot last half-year i'm pickup about 10-12 Holes, and only 1 Mark.

[elvesunited]

If named items are supposed to provide flexibility while random and crafted loot will stick to specific slots then could we possibly get an improvement to older named items? Many of them are antiquated to the point of uselessness.

So the idea is to give crafting a major power upgrade to make up for its loss of flexibility. It will probably exceed 98% of random loot. I've gotten so many "Serene Plate armor of Move Silently" it hurts the brain. Almost all my decent random loot with more than 1 useful attribute I buy at auction. I get named loot at a higher rate than decent random loot.

But will people bother with crafting? The early levels look useless compared to single decent attibute random loot. The group 1 list looks like some incredibly weak improvements. ( Attributes are in group 3! ) Not even remotely competitive. Unless some exclusive effects are at a low level of crafting skills there is nothing of value until you reach significant skill ( after a ridiculous amount of grind ) If that's the case why would any player new to crafting get into it now?

But even existing crafters may be in for a grind with these new collectables. In worst case scenario we'll be running the same quest over and over again to get this rare collectable that drops with the frequency of a bound to account Large Sulfur Stone. ( In ultimate worst case: bound to character ) We're already playing the game, you don't need to do that to us.

But here's hoping my fears are unfounded. That I will be able to craft useful items without too much hassle and I won't miss existing crafting at all and that players new to crafting will be able to get something useful out of it early on to entice them into putting more effort into it.

[Hilltrot]

I am also looking forward to the new CC. However, I am concerned that the ability to level up, for a range of levels at 20, 70, 120, 170, 220, 270, 320, and 370, will not be sufficiently tested by the community. Imagine that you needed 30 lightning-split soarwood to continue leveling up (and everyone else trying to make the same levels needed them too). That would put a big hurt on. If Lamania allows you to quick buy them, then people wouldn't know how hard they are to come by. That is a big risk.

I am not suggesting that we eliminate the need to gather collectables. I think it separates the casual crafters from the serious ones. I am OK with that. But, I don't want to be stuck with needing a single collectable that I just can't seem to get, in order to continue leveling.

I will agree that rare collectibles should not be the requirement for leveling up, especially at the lower levels. I only have 9 lightning-split soarwood.

[Andu_Indorin]

All items created with old Cannith Crafting will remain as is when the new system goes in. However, all of the old recipes will be gone at that time.
Single Essence

There will be a single essence going forward, no lesser or greater, just a single essence. The exchange rate will be 1 greater to 1 of the new essence or 5 to 1 Lesser to new essence.

The new essence will stack to at least 10,000.

As one who has deconstructed over 10,000 magic items, it is very good to see that lesser essences will "buy" the new essence. It reassuring that my time slaving over that "gnomish" device in House K and House C will not be entirely wasted.

[Im_Rob]

So Ive been maxed crafting levels for years, and have just been collecting essences for ages.

Take a stab at how many essences (and I am totally happy with a general ballpark type of figure) that it would take to get from 260 ish (current cap into new system) to get the the new lvl 400 cap.

Are we talking 100,000 new essences... 500,000 new essences? some kind of ballpark would be nice.


I dont want to be sitting at the stupid deconstructor anymore if I already have enough to cap my toon on day 1 of release.

[GeoffWatson]

So Ive been maxed crafting levels for years, and have just been collecting essences for ages.

Take a stab at how many essences (and I am totally happy with a general ballpark type of figure) that it would take to get from 260 ish (current cap into new system) to get the the new lvl 400 cap.

Are we talking 100,000 new essences... 500,000 new essences? some kind of ballpark would be nice.


I dont want to be sitting at the stupid deconstructor anymore if I already have enough to cap my toon on day 1 of release.

It doesn't matter how many essences you have.
All of the recipes will need new collectables (according to Cordovan) so you'll have to farm the collectables first.

[Faltout]

You can't get Marks of Cannith without the Cannith pack. I think your point is assumed already. But, just in case you thought that was the point I was making earlier, it was not. Some collectables are harder to come by than others, even if you are VIP and have the expantions.
You can. You get cannith favor from the challenges and you get free tokens for the challenges every day.


Legendary HoX f2p too ( normal HoX - no, and it's very strange). 8)
REALLY?!
Hahahah

[DYWYPI]

We can only guess the amounts of Essences it would take past the current "Capped" values. I do know with the current system, to get into the low 100s, it took my secondary Crafter: 1,262 Crafted shards, 712 Deconstructed (Total Crafting XP: 134913).

I haven't a clue on the amount of Essences but even to get to Level 150/150/150 (my Main Crafter) I suspect; I used well over any 100,000 Greater essences.

Even if you made only 1 of each Shard using Current system that would consume approximately: 26,525 Greater Essences and 97,184 Lesser Essences. Of course its likely to need several shards per Crafting Level in reality.

I used well-over 40 Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments levelling alone to gain 150/150/150. I was also trying to avoid any recipes that needed Purified Eberron Dragonshards if possible due to their cost on AH.

Like myself, and others have mentioned; its acquiring the Cannith Collectables and other Ingredients that's the main hurdle to levelling not the Essences, gaining essences is the straightforward part.

[Gisleres]

Single School

Cannith will be down to a single school - currently know as... Cannith!
The school will have a level cap of 400, and all XP will carry over from the original 3 schools.
...
Level 150: 30,151
Level 260: 245,580 <- where current maxed out crafters will end up.

TL;DR: Am I the only fool who had different characters specializing in different schools, thus will get screwed by the school merge?

Simplified version of my situation:
Suppose I have maxed out the crafting XP in all three schools, but it is split by school between three characters. (See the final paragraph for why I would do such a thing.) For comparison, my friend has one character with all three schools maxed out. Right now we are effectively equal: and we both can craft all recipes, and we have the same XP overall. After the merge, my friend will have one Level 260 crafter with 245715 XP -- whereas I will have three crafters around Level 200 with 81905 XP each.

In case it isn't obvious, I consider myself "screwed by the change". Am I the only one in this boat?

However, this assumes two things, changing either of which would completely negate my concern:
1. that the shards we craft for ourselves will continue to be BtA and not become BtC. If they become BtC, my ability to craft for my characters will still plummet, but so will anybody's who has more than one character to equip -- at which point I will not be "screwed" because of my unique situation, but rather "nerfed" along with everybody else, and that's just the price of maintaining balance.
2. that the crafting XP will continue to be accumulated per character and not per account. Someone suggested in an earlier thread that crafting XP from all characters could be merged into one account-wide pile. It makes a lot of sense: if the output of crafting is Bound to Account, then letting all characters make use of the crafting XP is functionally equivalent to designating one character to do all your crafting; the only difference is that of convenience and not of balance: you don't have to switch characters to craft.

As to why I specialized my crafters by school: in short, to reduce hand-offs for deconstruction. My Elemental specialist deconstructs her Elemental trash and hands other trash off to other specialists. The others hand their Elemental trash off to her and deconstruct other trash themselves. This results in the same number of hand-offs as if I had just one crafter (everybody gives their trash to him), except for the items that have both Elemental and non-Elemental powers of equal level: if my Elemental specialist finds it, she deconstructs it, and if the others find it, they do. This difference became mostly irrelevant when I progressed to the point where the XP I get from deconstruction is negligible compared to what I get from crafting recipes, but by then abandoning my specialization would have wasted a lot of XP. (As I said, my actual situation is different from the above: I have only two characters with a total of about 150k XP, one of which specializes in two schools, but my point is still relevant.)

[Greantun]

It doesn't matter how many essences you have.
All of the recipes will need new collectables (according to Cordovan) so you'll have to farm the collectables first.

I just want to remove this misconception. There will only be new collectables for the ML shards over 20. All the effects shards should be able to be made once you are difficulty 100 (which I take as level 100). So if you are already capped, you can make any effect shard with existing collectables.

They are only adding high level collectables for recipes above ml20, and since the only thing that can determine ML is the ML shards, that is what the collectables are for. All the other recipes (ML20 and below shards, and effect shards) will use existing collectables.

NoWorries stated I this post https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477194-Cannith-Crafting-More-Info-Recap?p=5851530&viewfull=1#post5851530 that they are only adding 25 collectables to finish tier 5 and add a tier 6 set of collectables (Tiers defined here http://ddowiki.com/page/Collectable_source#By_Tier_and_Node_Type), which I would assume would be for the ML shards over 20.

[JoyfulEagle]

I just want to remove this misconception. There will only be new collectables for the ML shards over 20. All the effects shards should be able to be made once you are difficulty 100 (which I take as level 100). So if you are already capped, you can make any effect shard with existing collectables.

They are only adding high level collectables for recipes above ml20, and since the only thing that can determine ML is the ML shards, that is what the collectables are for. All the other recipes (ML20 and below shards, and effect shards) will use existing collectables.

NoWorries stated I this post https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477194-Cannith-Crafting-More-Info-Recap?p=5851530&viewfull=1#post5851530 that they are only adding 25 collectables to finish tier 5 and add a tier 6 set of collectables (Tiers defined here http://ddowiki.com/page/Collectable_source#By_Tier_and_Node_Type), which I would assume would be for the ML shards over 20.

This is logical. But there is something that doesn't quite add up then.

It has been stated that there will be about 25 new collectables. 34-20=14. We only need 14 new collectables for ML shards above 20.

I suppose they could be adding new useless collectables. That would be annoying. More inventory clutter with no benefit to anyone but Turbine (selling larger bags). It wouldn't be the first time. But, that seems like an unnecessary slap in the face, given people having already voiced their concern about this.

My thought is that they could be using some new collectables for some of the newer effects we haven't been able to craft in the past.

[Janisis]

I would love to be able to break down named loot for rare crafting ingredients. Currently with anything preU29 you almost want to groan if you get unique/named loot. The random gen loot changes for both good and bad over the years have turned original named loot into mostly completely ****. Let us break it down and do something useful with it. A much simpler solution then redoing/updating all of that junk.

Let us break down Wondrous loot and take that wondrous attribute and use it in new crafting. That would give us a reason to do quests which still have a chance to drop wondrous equipment. One of the issues with this game is it does not look back despite a leveling system that is constantly encouraging us to go through all the content again and again. Once we hit that pinnacle of maxed out desired lives there is not much to do other than ransack the current end game raid(s) or farm mythic +3/+4 named loot, get another remnant tome or find that perfect random loot gen item. All of which are fairly grinding and annoying. More variety of reasons to log on would help especially since resources to make a larger world with plenty of end game raids seems to be lacking.


This kobold is still grumpy about no Anauroch to explore or kobold race to TR/ITR into.
Kobolds never forget!

[Im_Rob]

It doesn't matter how many essences you have.
All of the recipes will need new collectables (according to Cordovan) so you'll have to farm the collectables first.

have a pile of collectibles too.

what would I do with them for the last 10 years. lol. have thousands sitting around by now

[Im_Rob]

We can only guess the amounts of Essences it would take past the current "Capped" values. I do know with the current system, to get into the low 100s, it took my secondary Crafter: 1,262 Crafted shards, 712 Deconstructed (Total Crafting XP: 134913).

I haven't a clue on the amount of Essences but even to get to Level 150/150/150 (my Main Crafter) I suspect; I used well over any 100,000 Greater essences.

Even if you made only 1 of each Shard using Current system that would consume approximately: 26,525 Greater Essences and 97,184 Lesser Essences. Of course its likely to need several shards per Crafting Level in reality.

I used well-over 40 Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments levelling alone to gain 150/150/150. I was also trying to avoid any recipes that needed Purified Eberron Dragonshards if possible due to their cost on AH.

Like myself, and others have mentioned; its acquiring the Cannith Collectables and other Ingredients that's the main hurdle to levelling not the Essences, gaining essences is the straightforward part.

Again, because Ive been playing for ages and not spending collectibles per se, I have about 5 or 600 purified essences collected over the years. so Im not worried there either

[ZhenBuYaoShi]

Flexibility: As long as every stat/effect has a minimum of 3 slots it can go in, I think we're covered for build flexibility around named items. Any that don't already should be available on rings. I'd say that's a minimum goal. Means you can work around two named items in the slots for a particular effect, but a third will limit your choices. Alternatively, adding "Flexibility" as one of the three effects allows for the build diversity some request, while trading that flexibility for a suitable amount of another flexibility or power: the third effect.

ML Shards: It would be nice if we could replace the ML shard on an item with a new one without starting over, even if the cost in mats was high. It would allow us to decide whether it's in our interest to have one +Str item and re-level it from time to time, or to devote the storage space to a range of them.

Other flexibility: Why stick with prefixes and suffixes? Why not let one of the advantages of Cannith Crafting be that you could craft two "suffix" effects on the same item? It fits with your "simplification" goal, and with no difference in essences associated, one of the logical justifications for the distinction is at least weakened. One of the most complex things about CC for newbies is understanding what's a prefix, what's a suffix, and why they can't go together on the same item. Get rid of this! This one change would guarantee CC would never be invalidated by random loot... some combinations would only be possible in CC items. Pretty sure that wouldn't make CC OP compared to the other systems.

Storage issues: This system trades freeing up some space in Ingredient bags for using additional space in Collectibles bags. Will bag sizes change to reflect this? Have you studied the effects on people's actual storage use? For me, it will be trivial: I have the bag storage in the bank. That's not true of everyone. On the other storage issue side, while the variety of items that go in Ingredient bags will go down, the singular crafting essence will now be desired in much higher quantities: on a straight trade, the 20 or so existing essences at a stacking quantity of 1000 ea. would become one stack of 20,000. Existing bags won't support that change. Will we be allowed multiple stacks? Or how will this be handled?

Collectibles: If Cannith Crafting is not intended to be a P2W perk, it will be important that all collectibles are available in at least one F2P area or acquisition method.


Here's the facts about the flexibility that will be available in the CC update AT LAUNCH, and this is just a section of the enchants that we are going to all want to be working with all the time, since they seem to think that flex shards are OKAY to be left out:

STR: Prefixes: bracers, gloves; suffixes: boots, belts
CON: Prefixes: armor, rings, necklaces, belts; suffixes: bracers
DEX: Prefixes: boots, gloves; suffixes: rings
INT: Prefixes: head, goggles, cloak; suffixes: None
WIS: Prefixes: goggles; suffixes: head
CHA: Prefixes: cloak, ring; suffixes: neck

There is absolutely no rhyme or reason to this system what so ever. There's plenty of flexibility for CON! Mild flexibility for INT! All the rest of the stats, and we're going to be running into problems left and right. I didn't bother with Insightful bonuses, as they are really just a cherry on top, aren't really the meat and bones of our crafting, and therefore do not make up for the lost flexibility in the much stronger and heavier enhancement bonus.

The reason I put these lists together was because I wanted to see what sorta stuff I could craft, but after getting only this far, I didn't even bother to continue to sort out where things could go; I didn't need to. I can see from just these few enchants that flexible shards are absolutely necessary, because what you have going on is NOT flexibility; it's random awkwardness; it's not even close to balanced per stat!

I'm curious to see how people the few stragglers that are reluctant to see flexible shards defend this list of enchants for it's inherent flexibleness, and ability to create a set of diverse gear, because that's not what I'm seeing; I'm seeing constriction issues immediately.

[RD2play]

Here's the facts about the flexibility that will be available in the CC update AT LAUNCH, and this is just a section of the enchants that we are going to all want to be working with all the time, since they seem to think that flex shards are OKAY to be left out:

STR: Prefixes: bracers, gloves; suffixes: boots, belts
CON: Prefixes: armor, rings, necklaces, belts; suffixes: bracers
DEX: Prefixes: boots, gloves; suffixes: rings
INT: Prefixes: head, goggles, cloak; suffixes: None
WIS: Prefixes: goggles; suffixes: head
CHA: Prefixes: cloak, ring; suffixes: neck

There is absolutely no rhyme or reason to this system what so ever. There's plenty of flexibility for CON! Mild flexibility for INT! All the rest of the stats, and we're going to be running into problems left and right. I didn't bother with Insightful bonuses, as they are really just a cherry on top, aren't really the meat and bones of our crafting, and therefore do not make up for the lost flexibility in the much stronger and heavier enhancement bonus.

The reason I put these lists together was because I wanted to see what sorta stuff I could craft, but after getting only this far, I didn't even bother to continue to sort out where things could go; I didn't need to. I can see from just these few enchants that flexible shards are absolutely necessary, because what you have going on is NOT flexibility; it's random awkwardness; it's not even close to balanced per stat!

I'm curious to see how people the few stragglers that are reluctant to see flexible shards defend this list of enchants for it's inherent flexibleness, and ability to create a set of diverse gear, because that's not what I'm seeing; I'm seeing constriction issues immediately.

I second this! I have been using This tread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/470024-Update-29-LOOT-FINDER-THREAD) and I don't know if it is complete, but it clearly shows how some effects are lacking options. If all effects would be going in 3 spots, there would maybe not be much need for Flex but as it stands some effects are only in possible in one single gear spot, meaning if you happen to have that slot filled with a Named/Raid item you can forget about it!

[dunklezhan]

It will, just not at a 100% success rate from, what we've been told.

Sooooo many pages ago, I'd missed your reply. Looking at the numbers, the max recipe level is 425, and the max crafting level is 400. 15 levels below = 50%, I would assume then that 30 levels below would be 1% and 31 levels 0%. 25 levels difference must then be about a 16% chance at success.

But it is still a chance - the issue is losing ingredients because you can bet a top level recipe will need some rare ones, or a lot of non rare ones (and if it doesn't, it should).

On that basis, I can more easily grasp Turbine's argument about not 'invalidating' lootgen - but I still disagree with them.

With the effects which have been made unique to each list, and with so few people who are going to bother to max their crafting compared to the population as a whole, and with the new tiers of collectibles that will have to be sought out in the right level ranges to make the top effects in the first place... I just don't see it actually mattering at all if a mastercrafter can make themselves the 'best in slot' loot, just so long as they are prevented from doing that for everyone - i.e. top level/power recipes. As long as noncrafters - which will be a LOT of people because a huge number of people just don't engage with this kind of grind when compared to killing stuff - can't get whatever they want without the equivalent effort, its fine.

This equivalence-gap puts me off so much in fact that after being a strong advocate for years for DDO to have a general crafting system - since they first started talking about it on Mournlands in fact - I probably wouldn't bother with the new one at all if it wasn't for the fact that current random loot drives me completely insane due to the too-much-random nature of which effects can appear with which effects and on which items (if I'm being fair, mostly my annoyance is limited to weapons and armour).

I'll be doing crafting out of necessity to avoid a system I dislike, not out of a desire to engage with crafting, and that should not need to be a factor in a player's decision at all for a system like this.

Now, full disclosure I'm not at all sure how I'd feel if random weapons and armour were more to my liking in the first place - but they aren't, and Turbine have made it clear they're happy with it. So if that's the way Random Loot is going to be, I need crafting to be my route to loot, and I'll instead grind for ingredients. Because make no mistake, having to do that is every bit the grind of trying to get even good lootgen for weapons and armour, never mind the "best".

TL; DR:

I maintain it would be better if the power level was be equivalent and crafters were prevented from making the very highest level stuff for anyone but themselves, and I do feel more than a bit disincentivised to bother trying to max out my crafting with the system as proposed.

[JOTMON]

So Ive been maxed crafting levels for years, and have just been collecting essences for ages.

Take a stab at how many essences (and I am totally happy with a general ballpark type of figure) that it would take to get from 260 ish (current cap into new system) to get the the new lvl 400 cap.

Are we talking 100,000 new essences... 500,000 new essences? some kind of ballpark would be nice.


I dont want to be sitting at the stupid deconstructor anymore if I already have enough to cap my toon on day 1 of release.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/a8/a83a89ef70564d2e6f9653e3ee2ab536bf2f2efa9dc22ced20 5b3191e58e2bca.jpg

[Shoemaker]

Here's the facts about the flexibility that will be available in the CC update AT LAUNCH, and this is just a section of the enchants that we are going to all want to be working with all the time, since they seem to think that flex shards are OKAY to be left out:

STR: Prefixes: bracers, gloves; suffixes: boots, belts
CON: Prefixes: armor, rings, necklaces, belts; suffixes: bracers
DEX: Prefixes: boots, gloves; suffixes: rings
INT: Prefixes: head, goggles, cloak; suffixes: None
WIS: Prefixes: goggles; suffixes: head
CHA: Prefixes: cloak, ring; suffixes: neck

There is absolutely no rhyme or reason to this system what so ever. There's plenty of flexibility for CON! Mild flexibility for INT! All the rest of the stats, and we're going to be running into problems left and right. I didn't bother with Insightful bonuses, as they are really just a cherry on top, aren't really the meat and bones of our crafting, and therefore do not make up for the lost flexibility in the much stronger and heavier enhancement bonus.

The reason I put these lists together was because I wanted to see what sorta stuff I could craft, but after getting only this far, I didn't even bother to continue to sort out where things could go; I didn't need to. I can see from just these few enchants that flexible shards are absolutely necessary, because what you have going on is NOT flexibility; it's random awkwardness; it's not even close to balanced per stat!

I'm curious to see how people the few stragglers that are reluctant to see flexible shards defend this list of enchants for it's inherent flexibleness, and ability to create a set of diverse gear, because that's not what I'm seeing; I'm seeing constriction issues immediately.

I second this! I have been using This tread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/470024-Update-29-LOOT-FINDER-THREAD) and I don't know if it is complete, but it clearly shows how some effects are lacking options. If all effects would be going in 3 spots, there would maybe not be much need for Flex but as it stands some effects are only in possible in one single gear spot, meaning if you happen to have that slot filled with a Named/Raid item you can forget about it!

I think the list here is misleading... Let's try the full list.



Prefix
Suffix


STR
Bracers, Gloves
Boot, Belts


CON
Armor, Necklaces, Belts,
Rings, Trinkets, Rune Arms
Bracers


DEX
Boots, Gloves
Rings, Trinkets, Rune Arms


INT
Helm, Goggles, Cloaks
None


WIS
Goggles
Helm


CHA
Cloak, Ring, Trinket, Rune Arm
Necklace



To summarize... STR 2/2 (4); CON 6/1 (7); DEX 2/3 (5); INT 3/0 (3); WIS 1/1 (2); CHA 4/1 (5)
You're crying about INT... Looks like WIS is worse off, but none of them are locked to a single slot... You're also forgetting that you can also use LGS weapons for max ability stats, so any stat can go on weapons as well... There's more flexibility than you're letting on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not overly impressed with this update pass; but I've gotten to the point where I believe they're actually past making any major needed changes to their vision of what it should be and to continue to bicker over the little stuff before it's implemented is a waste of my time. Once it is released, and everyone see's how things work or not; then I'll see if there is any chance of revisiting things that I think are broken about this plan.

[Ebondevil]

Really they should get rid of the Prefix/Suffix limitations, and put the effects on the item in the order they are crafted on, would allow for considerably more flexibility without the need for flexible shards and should simplify the system from both the design and the player perspective.

[ZhenBuYaoShi]

I think the list here is misleading... Let's try the full list.



Prefix
Suffix


STR
Bracers, Gloves
Boot, Belts


CON
Armor, Necklaces, Belts,
Rings, Trinkets, Rune Arms
Bracers


DEX
Boots, Gloves
Rings, Trinkets, Rune Arms


INT
Helm, Goggles, Cloaks
None


WIS
Goggles
Helm


CHA
Cloak, Ring, Trinket, Rune Arm
Necklace



To summarize... STR 2/2 (4); CON 6/1 (7); DEX 2/3 (5); INT 3/0 (3); WIS 1/1 (2); CHA 4/1 (5)
You're crying about INT... Looks like WIS is worse off, but none of them are locked to a single slot... You're also forgetting that you can also use LGS weapons for max ability stats, so any stat can go on weapons as well... There's more flexibility than you're letting on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not overly impressed with this update pass; but I've gotten to the point where I believe they're actually past making any major needed changes to their vision of what it should be and to continue to bicker over the little stuff before it's implemented is a waste of my time. Once it is released, and everyone see's how things work or not; then I'll see if there is any chance of revisiting things that I think are broken about this plan.

If bickering about this were a waste of your time, then why bother to bring all of this up, which is really a bunch of nothing, rune arms, seriously, to make the chart look more filled in with something that belongs to a single class, how ridiculous. My mistake with trinkets, I neglected to include them, they didn't really change the canvas much, though. The fact is, stats are still completely unbalanced, and constricted, imo. You consider it something unworthy to be spoken about, that's funny, the person above you seems to think the exact opposite of you; after all, what else is this all about if not to talk about what's being presented. They say it's unnecessary AT LAUNCH, they see exactly how much opposition, and grave concern people have about this, and I think they realize, to at least some degree, that it's restricted placement, or else they wouldn't even be talking about giving flexible shards a future, but they are giving them a potential future. I'm not letting on that there is less flexibility than there is, I presented something for others to look at and to judge for themselves WITH my own opinion, then said that I couldn't wait to see how others were going to justify how this was flexible. Then, you came along and tried to justify how things were still rather flexible, but all you did was highlight the inflexibility, because rune arms, don't count, and people typically have their special trinkets that they wouldn't be giving up for any crafted piece anyway. Epic Litany is one such example, but people are also very attached to their augmented ioun stones. So, yeah, maybe in heroic levels, but even then people have their beloved special trinkets that they will start wearing at a certain level, and then refuse to take off. Everybody knows what I'm talking about.

Anyway, it was not I, but someone else that was having misconceptions about how flexible they believed the system was going to be, and since maybe it would be that flexible at least it would work all right. I was showing them EXACTLY where things REALLY get to go, and REALLY how rigid it is for most of the stats. When did I whine about INT? I said, Int has somewhat decent flexibility, did you not read my post? I said it was the REST OF THE STATS that were really jacked over, and you are completely correct, WIS is the absolute worst off stat in the entire system! When I saw you're post, I was actually kinda stoked, because originally I wanted to put it up in a chart format just like that, but I was like, the hell if I'm going to write all of that mark-up code, and then you awesomely turned it into a table for me, and represented it, with added fluff, but WHO CARES! It's a great chart to demonstrate perfectly to everyone just how awkwardly random, or GREAT if they really think that, the situation is.

[RD2play]

I think the list here is misleading... Let's try the full list.



Prefix
Suffix


STR
Bracers, Gloves
Boot, Belts


CON
Armor, Necklaces, Belts,
Rings, Trinkets, Rune Arms
Bracers


DEX
Boots, Gloves
Rings, Trinkets, Rune Arms


INT
Helm, Goggles, Cloaks
None


WIS
Goggles
Helm


CHA
Cloak, Ring, Trinket, Rune Arm
Necklace



To summarize... STR 2/2 (4); CON 6/1 (7); DEX 2/3 (5); INT 3/0 (3); WIS 1/1 (2); CHA 4/1 (5)
You're crying about INT... Looks like WIS is worse off, but none of them are locked to a single slot... You're also forgetting that you can also use LGS weapons for max ability stats, so any stat can go on weapons as well... There's more flexibility than you're letting on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not overly impressed with this update pass; but I've gotten to the point where I believe they're actually past making any major needed changes to their vision of what it should be and to continue to bicker over the little stuff before it's implemented is a waste of my time. Once it is released, and everyone see's how things work or not; then I'll see if there is any chance of revisiting things that I think are broken about this plan.

First off I am not only talking about only base Stats, I can't understand why people are so tunneled in their vision. When the new RGL came out the devs said there would be regular updates to it, but in actuality only some bugs with the system have been addressed. To talk about base stats, well it wouldn't be much of a problem if all of them would come in at least 3 places. But like in your list Wis comes only in 2, Int only exists as prefix and competes with other stats for that space, then Ins Cha only has one place it shows. So if that spot is in use for one of your Named/Raid items though luck. There are also other effects which only come in one slot, (bashing, combat mastery, potency) not much choice now is there? Crafted should fit in next to you Raid/Named loot. I have never asked for everything to go everywhere just a bit more Flex than the current RGL would be great, as it is needlessly restrictive in some places. You mention LGS like every player will even have a chance to make one of those, or even has their weapons open slot to equip an otherwise useless item. And what if you are not level 26? Get off you high horse man! Random is for a wider audience than an End-game Raid system. Yet another thing I cannot understand from some posters, it is all about level 30??? for me CCrafting is meant to fit in stuff while playing the game, you know levels 1-30. Great you will now be able to craft up to cap but that is not the only place it is and should be designed for. While equipping I first look at my main items which are Raid and Named Items that took me some time to acquire, then I will try to fill in the missing stuff with RGL, or Crafted items. With the needless restrictions build into the RGL this has now already become a great time sink figuring out you next gear set-up, only to find out it just doesn't quite fit. It takes away from enjoyment of playing the game when you need to go trough this every couple of levels, and wastes a ton of game time, which btw not every player has tons of.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Yet still no updates on what they are going to do with rune arms and trinkets. Perhaps NoWorries would care to enlighten us in this regard.

[Hilltrot]

I think the list here is misleading... Let's try the full list.



Prefix
Suffix


STR
Bracers, Gloves
Boot, Belts


CON
Armor, Necklaces, Belts,
Rings, Trinkets, Rune Arms
Bracers


DEX
Boots, Gloves
Rings, Trinkets, Rune Arms


INT
Helm, Goggles, Cloaks
None


WIS
Goggles
Helm


CHA
Cloak, Ring, Trinket, Rune Arm
Necklace



To summarize... STR 2/2 (4); CON 6/1 (7); DEX 2/3 (5); INT 3/0 (3); WIS 1/1 (2); CHA 4/1 (5)
You're crying about INT... Looks like WIS is worse off, but none of them are locked to a single slot... You're also forgetting that you can also use LGS weapons for max ability stats, so any stat can go on weapons as well... There's more flexibility than you're letting on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not overly impressed with this update pass; but I've gotten to the point where I believe they're actually past making any major needed changes to their vision of what it should be and to continue to bicker over the little stuff before it's implemented is a waste of my time. Once it is released, and everyone see's how things work or not; then I'll see if there is any chance of revisiting things that I think are broken about this plan.

This list is not complete.

I have wisdom cloaks.

Also, you have to realize that you are not just limited to prefix and suffix in the new system.

Spreading misinformation is not making a point.

[Gremmlynn]

Now, if you are planning on introducing those additional Cannith Collectables (or Ingredients) that would only appear in VIP Adventure Packs. Then that obviously supports discrimination against the F2P players and creates an unlevel crafting-field.What's a VIP adventure pack?

Also, why wouldn't there be an uneven playing field between those who pay for the game and those who don't at all (which is what f2P means, anyone who spends anyhing on the game is either premium or VIP, not F2P)? They do want to give us a reason to actually pay for their product after all.

[Gremmlynn]

I believe there's a certain set of collectibles that currently only drop in Tangleroot and related quests, but primarily in the Explorer area, which aren't F2P, but they're the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.There are also Necropolis specific collectables.

[Gremmlynn]

Since it was raised there are only 10 F2P Epic [21+] standard quests: '3 Web of Chaos quests' (Aka LoD), A Study in Sable, Brothers of the Forge and The Mask of Deception. Plus the 3 Legendary 'U31 Gnomework' quests and Legendary Tempest's Spine (Raid).You missed Beyond the Rift , which is basically the 4th Web of Chaos quest.

[Gremmlynn]

This logic can easily be turned upside down: "At some point everyone looted or bought from the AH all the uber random loot one desires and don't need to craft anymore" ... so I disagreeExcept one of those things would happen this year and the other not likely this century.

[DYWYPI]

What's a VIP adventure pack?

The [VIP] part was grammatical error by an individual with dyslexia; if you really want to know the answer. It was meant say "Adventure Packs". Like you mentioned, VIP Subscribers already have access to all Adventure Packs (except expansion content).

Yes, 10 F2P Epic [21+] standard quests (plus one Raid). (Word blindness can be a nuisance for me at times.) The missing words [Beyond the Rift], was one of those 10. Thus 11 individual Adventures... correct, you win today's "star prize" of proofreader. :-)


I was saying [#158 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477194-Cannith-Crafting-More-Info-Recap?p=5851565&viewfull=1#post5851565)] it'd support discrimination with regards "Cannith Crafting" if new [BtA] Cannith Collectables (or Ingredients) were only in 'Adventure packs'. Of course given time; Free-to-Play players theoretically can earn enough Favour and thus purchase the Adventure packs with TP.

The main reason for BtA Cannith Collectables, would be to reduce the chance of those Collectables being resold or redistributed, it would not really benefit 'Cannith Crafting' itself. NoWorries already plans on creating Epic level 'Unbound Shards' and that probably will result in; none Cannith Crafters acquiring unbound Epic Shards, which could potentially cause more problems than with the current system.

[TedSandyman]

Crafted items are temporary. Turbine doesn't understand this. This is their biggest mistake.

Crafting does not need to be challenging. It should be an easy, natural way for people to get the most of their characters throughout the leveling process.

I assume people are not using the crafting system very much and turbine is trying to revive interest. Unfortunately, since they don't really understand why most people don't craft now, the changes they are proposing, I believe, is going to make the situation worse.

Most people rush through the game to get to end content and don't care about anything that slows them down. Taking the time to level in crafting, collecting ingredients, even taking the time to create items, is just slowing them down from getting to level 30. That is just a fact as to how most people I have met play this game. Play all levels on elite for max xp. Always grab the bravery bonus. Keep xp pots running the whole time. Get to the end of the dungeon as fast as possible for the highest XP to time ratio. Run high XP dungeons over and over and ignore the rest. For these people, crafting offers nothing. It is only a distraction. You MUST make it easier for these people.

I personally don't run through levels as fast as possible. I try to enjoy the game at every level. At every level I look to see what equipment I can purchase to upgrade the attributes needed by the build. And then I craft to fill in the missing pieces. I believe that most of the people who are still crafting use the system in this way. But all of the items I craft will be useful for only one or two more levels. And I will have to destroy said item because of limitation of inventory space. The people who do craft a lot already know this.

It would be nice to have a spot item for each possible level in my inventory, but I just don't have the space to keep seven different spot items.

It is nice to create a set of True Seeing goggles at level 11. But as I level I will need to add something to the googles and when I TR and come around to level 11 again I will have to make a new set.

So, since most crafted items are temporary, the big problem is that the ingredient costs are too high.

To keep up with the ingredients, you have to deconstruct almost every bit of loot you find. You can't run to the vendor to clear out your inventory. You must go to the crafting station and deconstruct, which takes forever. Most people don't have the patience or the commitment to do this every time, so they wont ever have enough ingredients to craft even if they wanted to. Being able to deconstruct in batches will help a little, but you still have to take time to go to the station. Yes they can buy the items on the AH. But that collapses eventually. As fewer people craft, there becomes no reason to even take the time to sell ingredients. As of right now on the AH there is only one Greater Ingredient available (9 Greater Law) with an initial bit of 180 plat.

Collectible drops are ridiculously low. I have looted hundreds of mushrooms without ever finding a simple deadly feverblanch. Most of the collectibles are not useful for crafting, but the few that are very useful, don't drop very often. Since there are 11 types of mushroom, the chance of finding a deadly feverblanch on any one drop is lessened. And turbine is going to be adding MORE ingredients. You shouldn't have to rerun a dungeon 10 times just to try to find a mushroom with a deadly feverblanch. People just stop trying.

So, what should crafting be? It should be an easy way to make temporary items that fit into your current selection of gear. It should be fairly easy to get the ingredients in large enough quantities that GRINDING is NOT required. It should come as a surprise if you go to craft something and you actually DON'T have an ingredient already (assuming you deconstruct and make a reasonable effort to hit the collectibles in dungeons).

ALL collectibles and ingredients should be available in the DDO store at reasonable prices. Sell batches of ingredients and collectibles of 100 for 25 turbine points. People who don't want to spend time collecting and deconstructing, will be happy to buy the items. And they will be cheap enough that they will keep coming back for more. Sell the items for too much and they will continue as they do now without even trying to craft. Those of us who deconstruct and collect will not have to worry about buying items but the drop counts should be higher. Let a mushroom act like a chest with multiple collectible items. Or at least allow multiples of a single item (7 deadly feverblanch for example in one mushroom).

Give the ingredient collectors the ability to change one type of collectible for another. (PLEASE no higher than a 2 for 1 ratio. You guys are ridiculous with some of your other exchange ratios.)

Any item used in crafting should not be a random drop. For example the Locus of Vol for vampirism. Make it ALWAYS drop in the chest or make it ALWAYS an end reward. So we don't have to run the quest 10 times to get one. At the very least up the chance of dropping considerably for construction items.




An aside on lesser and greater ingredients.

Ok. What is up with lesser and greater ingredients. Having both makes no sense whatsoever. Lets think of dollars as greater ingredients and quarters as lesser.
The deception shard is 1 greater and 4 lesser ingredients.

This is the equivalent to saying "The cost is 1 dollar and four quarters."
If you have $2, that wont work. You will have to go to a machine and convert one of those dollars into quarters before the transaction can take place. Silly.

[dunklezhan]

TL;DR: Am I the only fool who had different characters specializing in different schools, thus will get screwed by the school merge?


You are the first person I've heard of who has done this. Even having read it I don't really understand why you did this, but I don't think it makes you a fool, particularly.

[JOTMON]

TL;DR: Am I the only fool who had different characters specializing in different schools, thus will get screwed by the school merge?


I would say.. yes..

Now DDO could resolve this by making the crafting level account based instead of character based.. thre really isn't any reason to have this as a per character for crafting....

[Mglaxix]

Crafted items are temporary. Turbine doesn't understand this. This is their biggest mistake.

Crafting does not need to be challenging. It should be an easy, natural way for people to get the most of their characters throughout the levelin

Challenging what part is challenging pulling the levers in the crafting hall. Nothing should be easy.....

I assume people are not using the crafting system very much and turbine is trying to revive interest. Unfortunately, since they don't really understand why most people don't craft now, the changes they are proposing, I believe, is going to make the situation worse.

They need to update crafting to make it relevant with new loot gen items that are dropping

Most people rush through the game to get to end content and don't care about anything that slows them down. Taking the time to level in crafting, collecting ingredients, even taking the time to create items, is just slowing them down from getting to level 30. That is just a fact as to how most people I have met play this game. Play all levels on elite for max xp. Always grab the bravery bonus. Keep xp pots running the whole time. Get to the end of the dungeon as fast as possible for the highest XP to time ratio. Run high XP dungeons over and over and ignore the rest. For these people, crafting offers nothing. It is only a distraction. You MUST make it easier for these people.

Rushing to cap has nothing to do with crafting Maxing your crafting enables you to run to cap faster. I don't see any reason to farm xp anymore more than enough to hit cap without farming it anymore.


I personally don't run through levels as fast as possible. I try to enjoy the game at every level. At every level I look to see what equipment I can purchase to upgrade the attributes needed by the build. And then I craft to fill in the missing pieces. I believe that most of the people who are still crafting use the system in this way. But all of the items I craft will be useful for only one or two more levels. And I will have to destroy said item because of limitation of inventory space. The people who do craft a lot already know this.

The way you run is your choice. Why would you need to destroy and gear you craft use BTA unnamed items they remain BTA utilize pass to bank toon utilize over an over again saves you time materials and work

It would be nice to have a spot item for each possible level in my inventory, but I just don't have the space to keep seven different spot items.

Only need +5 skill items Min Lvl 1 +10 Skills Min Lvl 5 with masterful on them

It is nice to create a set of True Seeing goggles at level 11. But as I level I will need to add something to the googles and when I TR and come around to level 11 again I will have to make a new set.

Wasting your resources here

So, since most crafted items are temporary, the big problem is that the ingredient costs are too high.

Wasting your resources here

To keep up with the ingredients, you have to deconstruct almost every bit of loot you find. You can't run to the vendor to clear out your inventory. You must go to the crafting station and deconstruct, which takes forever. Most people don't have the patience or the commitment to do this every time, so they wont ever have enough ingredients to craft even if they wanted to. Being able to deconstruct in batches will help a little, but you still have to take time to go to the station. Yes they can buy the items on the AH. But that collapses eventually. As fewer people craft, there becomes no reason to even take the time to sell ingredients. As of right now on the AH there is only one Greater Ingredient available (9 Greater Law) with an initial bit of 180 plat.

Wasting your resources here

Collectible drops are ridiculously low. I have looted hundreds of mushrooms without ever finding a simple deadly feverblanch. Most of the collectibles are not useful for crafting, but the few that are very useful, don't drop very often. Since there are 11 types of mushroom, the chance of finding a deadly feverblanch on any one drop is lessened. And turbine is going to be adding MORE ingredients. You shouldn't have to rerun a dungeon 10 times just to try to find a mushroom with a deadly feverblanch. People just stop trying.

Wasting your resources here. Collectibles normally on plat house if not check on Trade channel I mail stuff to people for free when I see they need stuff

So, what should crafting be? It should be an easy way to make temporary items that fit into your current selection of gear. It should be fairly easy to get the ingredients in large enough quantities that GRINDING is NOT required. It should come as a surprise if you go to craft something and you actually DON'T have an ingredient already (assuming you deconstruct and make a reasonable effort to hit the collectibles in dungeons).

Nothing should be easy.

ALL collectibles and ingredients should be available in the DDO store at reasonable prices. Sell batches of ingredients and collectibles of 100 for 25 turbine points. People who don't want to spend time collecting and deconstructing, will be happy to buy the items. And they will be cheap enough that they will keep coming back for more. Sell the items for too much and they will continue as they do now without even trying to craft. Those of us who deconstruct and collect will not have to worry about buying items but the drop counts should be higher. Let a mushroom act like a chest with multiple collectible items. Or at least allow multiples of a single item (7 deadly feverblanch for example in one mushroom).

Why spend real money when plat is free.

Give the ingredient collectors the ability to change one type of collectible for another. (PLEASE no higher than a 2 for 1 ratio. You guys are ridiculous with some of your other exchange ratios.)

might not be a bad idea

Any item used in crafting should not be a random drop. For example the Locus of Vol for vampirism. Make it ALWAYS drop in the chest or make it ALWAYS an end reward. So we don't have to run the quest 10 times to get one. At the very least up the chance of dropping considerably for construction items.

Wasting your resources here BTA crafted gear and you don't need to keep remaking it


An aside on lesser and greater ingredients.

Ok. What is up with lesser and greater ingredients. Having both makes no sense whatsoever. Lets think of dollars as greater ingredients and quarters as lesser.
The deception shard is 1 greater and 4 lesser ingredients.

This is the equivalent to saying "The cost is 1 dollar and four quarters."

Bad math here 1 Greater = a Dollar then 5 Lesser would mean 20 Cents

If you have $2, that wont work. You will have to go to a machine and convert one of those dollars into quarters before the transaction can take place. Silly.

DDO is a game of resource management Hit Points, Spell Points, Ingredients, Mats of all kinds all resources learn how to conserve them and they go a lot farther than you are currently getting out of them

[maddong]

Please make sure we can convert the current essences into the new essences with 1 click and not the 1 at a time rate that I'm struggling thru making lessers currently.

[azrael4h]

Crafted items are temporary. Turbine doesn't understand this. This is their biggest mistake.

I don't think that was the original intention though. Remember that when CC came out, it's power wasn't much under lootgen. In fact, for weapons I think you could craft specific mob-beaters as good as anything you could pull from lootgen. +5 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Evil Outsider Bane for the devil raids of the era, Holy Burst Adamantine of Greater Construct Bane for portal beaters, etc... I still have some of these weapons. They didn't compete with specific named loot, mostly epic and raid loot. But in terms of lootgen, they were largely competitive. It was only skill and spell power that really hit the wall, you can't craft past 13 skill or 66 spell power IIRC, along with vorpal effects.

I think the intention was to provide a way to craft essential gear that could be used as top end equipment, without relying on drop rates that could be impossible for a new player. It was 95% or at least 90%. The problem is, three loot passes and three level cap increases have reduced it's value to DR breakers and Ghost Touch. And that only because these effects were removed or broken outright in the last pass.

IMO, thinking it should be temporary is a mistake. It is a significant grind to max out crafting, now and in the future version. Relegating it's value only to TRing lessens it's value tremendously.

[Powerhungry]

I would say.. yes..

Now DDO could resolve this by making the crafting level account based instead of character based.. thre really isn't any reason to have this as a per character for crafting....

The arti gains bonus crafting levels which (I imagine) is one reason this isn't being done

[Postumus]

Removing flexible shards from the system takes away a big chunk of awesome from that system. Considering you have to work hard to get to that point in crafting pre-new system why not make it hard in the new system and stay with it?



No flex shards = I don't care about the new crafting system.

150/150/150 crafter who will sit and collect dust with no flex shards.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

I don't think that was the original intention though. Remember that when CC came out, it's power wasn't much under lootgen. In fact, for weapons I think you could craft specific mob-beaters as good as anything you could pull from lootgen. +5 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Evil Outsider Bane for the devil raids of the era, Holy Burst Adamantine of Greater Construct Bane for portal beaters, etc... I still have some of these weapons. They didn't compete with specific named loot, mostly epic and raid loot. But in terms of lootgen, they were largely competitive. It was only skill and spell power that really hit the wall, you can't craft past 13 skill or 66 spell power IIRC, along with vorpal effects.

I think the intention was to provide a way to craft essential gear that could be used as top end equipment, without relying on drop rates that could be impossible for a new player. It was 95% or at least 90%. The problem is, three loot passes and three level cap increases have reduced it's value to DR breakers and Ghost Touch. And that only because these effects were removed or broken outright in the last pass.

IMO, thinking it should be temporary is a mistake. It is a significant grind to max out crafting, now and in the future version. Relegating it's value only to TRing lessens it's value tremendously.

THIS.

When crafting came out you could craft the BEST weapons in game. (With the exception of disruption, smiters, vorpal and several other effects.)

You could craft +6 stat items which were tops at that time.

And +13 skill items, which were 2 below what was max at that time.


So Crafting was originally designed to BE AS GOOD as regular loot for the most part, with several "special" weapon effects held back. ANd for whatever reason 2 less skill on items. (Figure that one out!)

I had/have a whole stable of +5 silver/cold iron, etc Holy burst of greater bane boss beaters. Which was the absolute best AT THE TIME CC CAME OUT. And next to impossible to find randomly. And THAT WAS WHAT MADE CRAFTING AWESOME AND WORTHWHILE.

[JOTMON]

The arti gains bonus crafting levels which (I imagine) is one reason this isn't being done

meh, arty bonus could still work, since it is a character bonus and would only apply when on that character.. but the core levelling system could be account based.

[Ebondevil]

The arti gains bonus crafting levels which (I imagine) is one reason this isn't being done


meh, arty bonus could still work, since it is a character bonus and would only apply when on that character.. but the core levelling system could be account based.

They could change the Arti Bonus to a percentile increase based on the artificer level, so artificers could more reliably craft items of a higher difficulty, without actually giving them extra levels, at top end this would mean they get a benefit from being an artificer.

Even when Not capped a +10% bonus would still let them craft what they can craft more reliably, and help with leveling up crafting.

Current proposal
Capped non artificer level 400
Capped Artificer level 390 (effective 400)
Both have the same results

Capped non Artificer Level 400 TR's into an Artificer, what happens to the 10 bonus levels as is?
Are they just a wasted class ability?

Wouldn't a +10% craft chance serve better than +10 levels?

[Free2Pay]

Flexibility is THE key to any loot system being relevant, be it random, cannith crafted or named items. If the success of Green Steel did not teach anyone the valuable lesson that flexibility is the what determines the longevity of the game I don't know what can.

The problem(s) with the current design as I see:
1) Cannith crafting is not able to create ALL items that one can find in random loot. Makes the whole system pointless and redundant. You don't even need to go into details of how much ingredient(s) are required when you realize how gimped it is before you even started.
2) There's no mechanism to automatically include new recipes into Cannith Crafting whenever new properties are added to random loot. So sooner, rather than later, Cannith Crafting will fall behind again and another round of revisiting begin. How much development time is wasted??
3) The various crafting systems need to be consolidated under one system, just using different ingredients (from different contents/raids). Don't keep introducing a new crafting system whenever a new raid is introduced. Green Steel, alchemical, thunder-forged, cannith need to be consolidated. It won't take long before you end up with something bloated and messy to balance and could inadvertently result in fewer new raids with crafting option introduced.

There are also various gameplay issues with the effectiveness (i.e. saves / stats / DCs / powers / skills ) of random loot, what can be/is being rolled on their RNGs, vs the saves/DCs of the mobs you put them up against. Epic ward and random immunities not only make whole lot of loot vendor trash, but they also make players gravitate towards builds that exploits ranged no save CC effects and high raw dps tree. Many classes have already fallen behind and when you can't even get the now necessary stats to augment those crippling holes in your builds, you'll find players looking elsewhere. Cannith crafting is never the cause that makes random loot vendor trash. In fact Cannith Crafting offers (partly) a recourse for a problem I mentioned above.

<TLDR> Make ALL loot rolls be flexible but have some mods that are sticky to the slot - especially mods (striding / underwater / featherfalling / deathblock / fortification / reflex saves / trap skills / evocation / necromancy ) that are essential to gameplay. Cannith Crafting HAS to be able to craft similar items to those you can find in random loot or there's no point to even begin with. All raid crafted gears NEED to be end-game viable. Not just the latest crafting option tied to whatever latest raid at maxed level. Just imagine the damage to the player base if you invalidated those green steels when you introduced Alchemical / Thunderforged but couldn't make up for the lost flexibility in slots by offering a similar alternate crafting options.<TLDR>

[Tarinia]

Hi,

I ahve 100dreds of old shards susing them as needed at the moment- will they be transformed to new shards so long the effect is possible in the new system? Or can I craft them using the old system in the future?

Best regards
Tarinia

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Wrong.
Currently 3 effects can be crafted:

http://s018.radikal.ru/i525/1607/42/d18625fa453e.jpg

Lol, i'm played in DDO about half-year or so, and know about issue more, than developer.

I think, it in the best way shows the current deplorable state of affairs with CC. 8)



How did you make this?

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Hi,

I ahve 100dreds of old shards susing them as needed at the moment- will they be transformed to new shards so long the effect is possible in the new system? Or can I craft them using the old system in the future?

Best regards
Tarinia

They've said that they will not be craftable; the old system and everything associated with it is just going away. However, it's unclear if you'll be able to decon them for essences in the new system, or if you'll need to decon them beforehand (my guess would be the latter... get rid of all shards you can before the update drops.)


How did you make this?

AFAIK, it's a bug that's bordering on exploit. If not an outright exploit, since you're only supposed to have prefix, suffix, and (on weapons/armor) enhancement bonus, and not three effects. So don't expect much of an answer.

[slarden]

Crafted items are temporary. Turbine doesn't understand this. This is their biggest mistake.

Crafting does not need to be challenging. It should be an easy, natural way for people to get the most of their characters throughout the leveling process.

I assume people are not using the crafting system very much and turbine is trying to revive interest. Unfortunately, since they don't really understand why most people don't craft now, the changes they are proposing, I believe, is going to make the situation worse.

Most people rush through the game to get to end content and don't care about anything that slows them down. Taking the time to level in crafting, collecting ingredients, even taking the time to create items, is just slowing them down from getting to level 30. That is just a fact as to how most people I have met play this game. Play all levels on elite for max xp. Always grab the bravery bonus. Keep xp pots running the whole time. Get to the end of the dungeon as fast as possible for the highest XP to time ratio. Run high XP dungeons over and over and ignore the rest. For these people, crafting offers nothing. It is only a distraction. You MUST make it easier for these people.

I personally don't run through levels as fast as possible. I try to enjoy the game at every level. At every level I look to see what equipment I can purchase to upgrade the attributes needed by the build. And then I craft to fill in the missing pieces. I believe that most of the people who are still crafting use the system in this way. But all of the items I craft will be useful for only one or two more levels. And I will have to destroy said item because of limitation of inventory space. The people who do craft a lot already know this.

It would be nice to have a spot item for each possible level in my inventory, but I just don't have the space to keep seven different spot items.

It is nice to create a set of True Seeing goggles at level 11. But as I level I will need to add something to the googles and when I TR and come around to level 11 again I will have to make a new set.

So, since most crafted items are temporary, the big problem is that the ingredient costs are too high.

To keep up with the ingredients, you have to deconstruct almost every bit of loot you find. You can't run to the vendor to clear out your inventory. You must go to the crafting station and deconstruct, which takes forever. Most people don't have the patience or the commitment to do this every time, so they wont ever have enough ingredients to craft even if they wanted to. Being able to deconstruct in batches will help a little, but you still have to take time to go to the station. Yes they can buy the items on the AH. But that collapses eventually. As fewer people craft, there becomes no reason to even take the time to sell ingredients. As of right now on the AH there is only one Greater Ingredient available (9 Greater Law) with an initial bit of 180 plat.

Collectible drops are ridiculously low. I have looted hundreds of mushrooms without ever finding a simple deadly feverblanch. Most of the collectibles are not useful for crafting, but the few that are very useful, don't drop very often. Since there are 11 types of mushroom, the chance of finding a deadly feverblanch on any one drop is lessened. And turbine is going to be adding MORE ingredients. You shouldn't have to rerun a dungeon 10 times just to try to find a mushroom with a deadly feverblanch. People just stop trying.

So, what should crafting be? It should be an easy way to make temporary items that fit into your current selection of gear. It should be fairly easy to get the ingredients in large enough quantities that GRINDING is NOT required. It should come as a surprise if you go to craft something and you actually DON'T have an ingredient already (assuming you deconstruct and make a reasonable effort to hit the collectibles in dungeons).

ALL collectibles and ingredients should be available in the DDO store at reasonable prices. Sell batches of ingredients and collectibles of 100 for 25 turbine points. People who don't want to spend time collecting and deconstructing, will be happy to buy the items. And they will be cheap enough that they will keep coming back for more. Sell the items for too much and they will continue as they do now without even trying to craft. Those of us who deconstruct and collect will not have to worry about buying items but the drop counts should be higher. Let a mushroom act like a chest with multiple collectible items. Or at least allow multiples of a single item (7 deadly feverblanch for example in one mushroom).

Give the ingredient collectors the ability to change one type of collectible for another. (PLEASE no higher than a 2 for 1 ratio. You guys are ridiculous with some of your other exchange ratios.)

Any item used in crafting should not be a random drop. For example the Locus of Vol for vampirism. Make it ALWAYS drop in the chest or make it ALWAYS an end reward. So we don't have to run the quest 10 times to get one. At the very least up the chance of dropping considerably for construction items.




An aside on lesser and greater ingredients.

Ok. What is up with lesser and greater ingredients. Having both makes no sense whatsoever. Lets think of dollars as greater ingredients and quarters as lesser.
The deception shard is 1 greater and 4 lesser ingredients.

This is the equivalent to saying "The cost is 1 dollar and four quarters."
If you have $2, that wont work. You will have to go to a machine and convert one of those dollars into quarters before the transaction can take place. Silly.

I dont' agree with bolded part at all. There is enough easy things in this game already.

Some crafting is an automatic - shroud, toee etc.. I think it's good to have a crafting system we have to work for so it's accomplishment to be a high-level crafter.

The success boosters and xp boosters are available from the store already and help with leveling quite a bit. crafting xp pots also available from house C vendor with first level favor.

I am not 100% opposed to selling collectibles in the store but my fear is it becomes like tomes that almost never drop in game and are available in the store. For cannith crafting up to 150 I avoided using rare ingredients for leveling and instead saved those for when I needed to make the item (example large devil scales for greater outsider evil bane). I assume the new system will be the same way so that you can find a leveling path that doesn't involve super rare ingredients but to make a good item it might require a rare ingredient.

While some of the stats won't match top tier random loot, in general I think it allows us to make some really great items that would be hard to get as random loot with exactly the things we need - so that is the trade off with the new system. So if you are a DC caster and want to max out DC you will need +8 focus item, +4 insightful focus item, +17 stat item. All extremely rare to get and not craftable - I am ok with that. You can craft +6, +3 insightful and +15 stats still for twink gear.

[azrael4h]

I dont' agree with bolded part at all. There is enough easy things in this game already.

Some crafting is an automatic - shroud, toee etc.. I think it's good to have a crafting system we have to work for so it's accomplishment to be a high-level crafter.

The success boosters and xp boosters are available from the store already and help with leveling quite a bit. crafting xp pots also available from house C vendor with first level favor.

I am not 100% opposed to selling collectibles in the store but my fear is it becomes like tomes that almost never drop in game and are available in the store. For cannith crafting up to 150 I avoided using rare ingredients for leveling and instead saved those for when I needed to make the item (example large devil scales for greater outsider evil bane). I assume the new system will be the same way so that you can find a leveling path that doesn't involve super rare ingredients but to make a good item it might require a rare ingredient.

While some of the stats won't match top tier random loot, in general I think it allows us to make some really great items that would be hard to get as random loot with exactly the things we need - so that is the trade off with the new system. So if you are a DC caster and want to max out DC you will need +8 focus item, +4 insightful focus item, +17 stat item. All extremely rare to get and not craftable - I am ok with that. You can craft +6, +3 insightful and +15 stats still for twink gear.

I don't think he meant as in no grind, but as in there shouldn't be a bunch of random steps added. It's not challenging to run from one station to the next, whoops lets go buy 1k decon materials because you forgot then run to the next station in the chain. It was always very poorly laid out. IMO, if you want a plat dump off of CC, then just charge a plat cost for deconning the items. There was never a need for 4 different stations and a vendor to begin with, it was all waste. It didn't add challenge to the game to run between stations and vendors. Everything should have been done off of one station, without unnecessary steps added just because.

[slarden]

I don't think he meant as in no grind, but as in there shouldn't be a bunch of random steps added. It's not challenging to run from one station to the next, whoops lets go buy 1k decon materials because you forgot then run to the next station in the chain. It was always very poorly laid out. IMO, if you want a plat dump off of CC, then just charge a plat cost for deconning the items. There was never a need for 4 different stations and a vendor to begin with, it was all waste. It didn't add challenge to the game to run between stations and vendors. Everything should have been done off of one station, without unnecessary steps added just because.

We may be interpreting the words differently. I think some of his points are valid, but I am ok with some scarcity and rare ingredients.




It should be fairly easy to get the ingredients in large enough quantities that GRINDING is NOT required. It should come as a surprise if you go to craft something and you actually DON'T have an ingredient already (assuming you deconstruct and make a reasonable effort to hit the collectibles in dungeons).

[DYWYPI]

Since Flexible shards are unlikely to appear in the "NoWorries Cannith Crafting" system dynamic, and it appears (without further feedback from a Turbine Representative) we'll be mostly following posts ([#1 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477194-Cannith-Crafting-More-Info-Recap?p=5849566&viewfull=1#post5849566)], [#2 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477194-Cannith-Crafting-More-Info-Recap?p=5849567&viewfull=1#post5849567)], and [#3 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477194-Cannith-Crafting-More-Info-Recap?p=5849568&viewfull=1#post5849568)] respectively). By referencing, DDO Wiki: U29 randomly generated loot Enchantments by slot (http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_29_randomly_generated_loot#Enchantments_by_ slot).

NoWorries, can you explain why; New Random Loot, 'Bartered', only seems to appear on headwear; since the word "Bartered" actually means; exchange and trade services, etc. (without the use of money).

That's rather strange since; DDO Haggle, I'd suspect is usually carried out with Vendors, e.g. the Marketplace, Brokers and Pawn shops, and the player gains Platinum pieces from selling, etc.

Thus that suggests, you plan to use 'Bartered' items, for within quest for: Haggle as a skills checks. For example: http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Mask_of_Deception which last time I checked required the "Dragon Mask" to be worn... on your head slot, the [Cultist Dragon Mask] is not cosmetic.

That pretty much means for that quest your Character wouldn't be able to wear a 'Bartered' [Dunce cap] to boost 'Haggle' to complete the "Bar Optional"... Of course, its a Haggle, with a roll, in that quest but you get the gist.

Even without allowing 'Flexible shards' the new Random Loot looks far too short-sighted (assuming that DDO Wiki page is loosely correct?).

Unsurprisingly you have hinted 'Eberron Dragonshards' will reappear as Cannith Crafting raw ingredients. The problem; isn't so much their rarity but the fact is, they tend to be used in several very good Trade-in options with 'Collector NPCs', which of course inflates their value on the Auction House even more...

However in contrast: Siberys Dragonshards; Flawed, Imperfect and Exceptional seem underutilised in Cannith Crafting. They're not in huge demand, so I suspect would be apt for "NoWorries Cannith Crafting" instead of extensive use of 'Eberron Dragonshards'.

Of course, if the "purposely leaked information", about [25] new Collectibles contain additional (previously unseen in DDO) Collectables of course Collectable Bags are going to be put under further strain.

Concerning Collectable Bags and Ingredient Bags, you mentioned "Cannith Essences" would stack to 10,000 though obviously that cannot happen within most Ingredient Bags! Neither would the "free as in beer" [F2P] Collectable bags contain all the current Cannith Collectables, let alone the new ones you envisage - the maths just doesn't work out...

[Aelonwy]

However in contrast: Siberys Dragonshards; Flawed, Imperfect and Exceptional seem underutilised in Cannith Crafting. They're not in huge demand, so I suspect would be apt for "NoWorries Cannith Crafting" instead of extensive use of 'Eberron Dragonshards'.

Of course, if the "purposely leaked information", about [25] new Collectibles contain additional (previously unseen in DDO) Collectables of course Collectable Bags are going to be put under further strain.

Concerning Collectable Bags and Ingredient Bags, you mentioned "Cannith Essences" would stack to 10,000 though obviously that cannot happen within most Ingredient Bags! Neither would the "free as in beer" [F2P] Collectable bags contain all the current Cannith Collectables, let alone the new ones you envisage - the maths just doesn't work out...

Good points.

I do think the NEW essence question has largely been answered, somewhere it was stated that we would be manually exchanging old essences of various types and amounts into the NEW essences. I think the quote may be in the previous thread; I'll try to go searching for it later. The idea, I think, is that we will be able to convert as needed so that our ingredient bags do not explode. However, that does bring up the issue of all the people that invested in BTC gargantuan store ingredient bags may now have to turn around and invest in BTC store collectible bags because the load is shifting. I do not complain about store-bought bags being larger, carrying more and larger stacks of items, but I will always complain about inconvenience and it is inconvenient indeed that store-bought bags are BTC. Because of this restriction I have only ever bought 2 store bags, and the cookie jar. Had they been BTA I might have bought 3x as many.

[Aelonwy]

Thank you No Worries for each response. Even if its not what we want to hear, its great to have the continued discourse.

Further questions:

Will banishing/smiting/disruption be returning to the random loot tables?
Will ammo & runestones remain in Cannith Crafting? (Apologies if this was answered somewhere before)
Can we please have the bound recipe crafted items made BTA instead of BTC? Inventory is already an issue in this game, let's not compound it.
Why is Speed so important to have random only? If we cannot craft Speed may we at least have the full 30% Striding?


Somewhere someone (apologies to creative person) suggested a system by which we could use gems to craft augment slots onto crafting blanks (at least) did anyone at Turbine read this idea? Was it too far beyond the scope of possibility?


And would it be possible to allow any stat (Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Char) to be generated on rings in the New Random Loot tables thus opening that avenue of flexibility in the New Cannith Crafting?

[DarigTheLost]

favour run 5000, +5 stat tome BTC. there is currently no use for this, the +2 tome BTC favour run can be traded in for Purified Eberron Dragonshard Essences which can be used for crafting. Please hace something semi useful included for the +5 stat tomes as well.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

I do not complain about store-bought bags being larger, carrying more and larger stacks of items, but I will always complain about inconvenience and it is inconvenient indeed that store-bought bags are BTC. Because of this restriction I have only ever bought 2 store bags, and the cookie jar. Had they been BTA I might have bought 3x as many.

Yes, this. I've bought exactly TWO store bought bags - a Colossal Ingredients Bag and a Colossal Augment Bag. Both are on my crafter on my main server, and both were purchased during a 50% sale a few years ago. I have maintained for years that if they were BtA, I would've bought a lot more over the years (at least 1 ing and 1 collectible bag on three servers, and possibly a second of each on my main server), and I would've probably done that at just a 10-20% sale. So that's 7-9 bags (counting the augment bag) at 20% off, vs. 2 bags at 50% off. Yep, they're making money off this decision!

(I've also bought several hireling folders when they were on sale just because of the panther and owlbears, and it annoys me that they're never on sale with other bags because I've got a couple of new characters I'd love to get them on... but I refuse because I keep thinking they *will* go on sale at some point... but I digress).

[Saekee]

I did not read all the above posts.
1) deathblock?
2) have Cannith favor reward include portable decon device but that gives only 50% value
3) I vote also to please keep flex shards somehow or in some lesser form

[bsquishwizzy]

After a lot of thought, I'm all with the group that flexible shards being tossed out the window is idiotic. if done correctly, it will not undo the desire for named items.

The problem is that you've given crafters the option to make very potent, but limited items based on your pre-designated level for various attributes (of you have a lvl 13 item, it will have X for a value on some attribute), and removed flexibility. And the one thing I think that is lost on the Devs is the following concept:

THE WHOLE FRICKIN' POINT TO CANNITH CRAFTING IN THE FIRST PLACE IS FRICKIN' FLEXIBILITY!!!!!

Not power.

Not shinies.

Flexibility. F-l-e-x-i-b-i-l-I-t-y.

Please try to understand this. I can do random loot all day and find / use an item with 1 good attribute on it, and a secondary attribute that I think sucks. I don't need to waste time crafting that. Duh.

Thanks for listening.

[SisAmethyst]

favour run 5000, +5 stat tome BTC. there is currently no use for this, the +2 tome BTC favour run can be traded in for Purified Eberron Dragonshard Essences which can be used for crafting. Please hace something semi useful included for the +5 stat tomes as well.

Hmm, I am actually not sure how many players actually got the 5000 favor, already considering that probably the majority of players is F2P and/or running in the TR wheel. So the more likely place to get a +5 Tome is from a Raid and I woudln't wan't to see those be part as an ingredient.

Do I would like to bring my BtC stat Tomes that I can't use to any purpose? Sure, but then not as a rare ingredient but independent from crafting. For example that you can get a blank BtA Tome and you can transfer your BtC Tome over to it by losing one level. So a +5 BtC Dex Tome would be consumed and create with a +4 BtA Dex Tome. If this is considered to powerful make it 1/3 chance a +4 and 2/3 chance a +3 BtA Tome for example. This way you could at least pass it to an alt and still keep the incentive to pass it for roll to someone else in the group as is if you happen to get one in a chest and not need it.

[Ulfo]

How did you make this?

Simple. Add one shard to blank item, next - second, next - third. If I remember order correct - Mobility, Protection from Poison and Stability.

So, when devs say about "no more affix and prefix shard" I'm think they just use currently existed in game code.

[Ulfo]

AFAIK, it's a bug that's bordering on exploit. If not an outright exploit, since you're only supposed to have prefix, suffix, and (on weapons/armor) enhancement bonus, and not three effects. So don't expect much of an answer.

Your IK wrong. 8)
No such bug present in official bug list and no one devs say it's exploit. Of course, you can anytime give link to this issue from devs if I'm wrong and you - right. You can? 8)

[RD2play]

Hmm, I am actually not sure how many players actually got the 5000 favor, already considering that probably the majority of players is F2P and/or running in the TR wheel. So the more likely place to get a +5 Tome is from a Raid and I woudln't wan't to see those be part as an ingredient.

Do I would like to bring my BtC stat Tomes that I can't use to any purpose? Sure, but then not as a rare ingredient but independent from crafting. For example that you can get a blank BtA Tome and you can transfer your BtC Tome over to it by losing one level. So a +5 BtC Dex Tome would be consumed and create with a +4 BtA Dex Tome. If this is considered to powerful make it 1/3 chance a +4 and 2/3 chance a +3 BtA Tome for example. This way you could at least pass it to an alt and still keep the incentive to pass it for roll to someone else in the group as is if you happen to get one in a chest and not need it.

The mechanic to trade tomes for Ebberon Dragon Shards is already in the game, all we are asking for is to be able to trade higher level (btc) stat and skill tomes also. Right now they are just wasted space, and it is lame to drag and destroy an Item just because it is of no use to your char, the turn in for Ebberon shards at least gives you something.

[slarden]

The mechanic to trade tomes for Ebberon Dragon Shards is already in the game, all we are asking for is to be able to trade higher level (btc) stat and skill tomes also. Right now they are just wasted space, and it is lame to drag and destroy an Item just because it is of no use to your char, the turn in for Ebberon shards at least gives you something.

Agreed I still have btc +3 tomes from shroud and tod 20th rewards back in the day when they didn't carry over to a TR so I didn't want to use them.

[slarden]

After a lot of thought, I'm all with the group that flexible shards being tossed out the window is idiotic. if done correctly, it will not undo the desire for named items.

The problem is that you've given crafters the option to make very potent, but limited items based on your pre-designated level for various attributes (of you have a lvl 13 item, it will have X for a value on some attribute), and removed flexibility. And the one thing I think that is lost on the Devs is the following concept:

THE WHOLE FRICKIN' POINT TO CANNITH CRAFTING IN THE FIRST PLACE IS FRICKIN' FLEXIBILITY!!!!!

Not power.

Not shinies.

Flexibility. F-l-e-x-i-b-i-l-I-t-y.

Please try to understand this. I can do random loot all day and find / use an item with 1 good attribute on it, and a secondary attribute that I think sucks. I don't need to waste time crafting that. Duh.

Thanks for listening.

It already provides flexibility since the odds of a getting a random loot item with 3 things slotted you want plus an augment slot is extremely rare, but you can make with the new system.

I am more concerned the max level is 34 compared to 40 for random loot. I think it shoul be more like 36-37 instead a notch below random loot but not 2 notches below, but since the various loot levels mean nothing to me without knowing what the #s are by level it's hard to say.

[bsquishwizzy]

It already provides flexibility since the odds of a getting a random loot item with 3 things slotted you want plus an augment slot is extremely rare, but you can make with the new system.

I am more concerned the max level is 34 compared to 40 for random loot. I think it shoul be more like 36-37 instead a notch below random loot but not 2 notches below, but since the various loot levels mean nothing to me without knowing what the #s are by level it's hard to say.

If you get three slots, and can only slot 1 attribute you want, and 2 you don't want, then it is no different than being limited to having 2 slots. Because if it's useless, it doesn't get better if you add the option to pile more useless on top of it.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Your IK wrong. 8)
No such bug present in official bug list and no one devs say it's exploit. Of course, you can anytime give link to this issue from devs if I'm wrong and you - right. You can? 8)

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong *shrug* However, these points don't being wrong prove. The "known" bugs list is hopelessly out of sorts with actual known bugs (and, indeed, exists more as a place to tell us what bugs no longer need reporting because they either already have enough examples to know what's causing it, or just plain don't plan to fix them, rather than as a list of all the bugs known to be in the game). And no dev will ever say "Yeah, no, that's an exploit." They'll simply delete posts explaining them and move on. The MIGHT say "So this hotfix we did today was to fix an exploit" but that's about the limit I've ever seen.

Whether it's officially a bug or an exploit or neither of the above, however, putting 3 affixes on a shard is not WAI. You know how I know? Because they've clearly stated that in the current system, it's supposed to be a prefix, a suffix, and (on weapons and armor) an enhancement bonus. And I really don't care enough to go looking for the posts to prove it, but if you'd like to find posts that prove me wrong and that having 3 affixes is WAI, be my guest.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

If you get three slots, and can only slot 1 attribute you want, and 2 you don't want, then it is no different than being limited to having 2 slots. Because if it's useless, it doesn't get better if you add the option to pile more useless on top of it.

And that... kinda proves his point for him? Crafting is more flexible because you're guaranteed to be able to make what you want (at least within the limits of the slotting), rather than finding an item that has, say, CON, featherfall, and insightful disable device on your pure monk with slowfall active. And if you don't want the third slot... well, guess what, you save on a Mark of Cannith.

Yes, flexible shards would make it MORE flexible. But it's already better than lootgen unless you get extremely lucky.

[bls904c2]

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong *shrug* However, these points don't being wrong prove.
......
And I really don't care enough to go looking for the posts to prove it, but if you'd like to find posts that prove me wrong and that having 3 affixes is WAI, be my guest.

1 page talks about how to put on the third effect kind of confusing, but





Old Cannith Crafting went to level 20, only had 2 effects, and didn't have insightful.

If you are maxed, you switch over on day 1 to crafting ML 26, being able to put 3 effects on, and to have Insightful effects. Players gain power just from the change. Also, with this system, any effect you can craft is useful, as it autoscales with ML (or for non-scaling effects, it is the max it can be). So yes, you will be crafting useful things.


here is the quote 3 effects are WAI

[Krelar]

here is the quote 3 effects are WAI

That quote is talking about the proposed update to cannith crafting not what we currently have.

[bsquishwizzy]

And that... kinda proves his point for him? Crafting is more flexible because you're guaranteed to be able to make what you want (at least within the limits of the slotting), rather than finding an item that has, say, CON, featherfall, and insightful disable device on your pure monk with slowfall active. And if you don't want the third slot... well, guess what, you save on a Mark of Cannith.

Yes, flexible shards would make it MORE flexible. But it's already better than lootgen unless you get extremely lucky.

I don’t get what people don’t understand about this.
Have you actually crafted anything with the current system? You get to something like a necklace, and you’re left with maybe slotting a stat value, and then it’s basically the same old diplo / bluff / balance / swim / disable device stuff with some saves thrown in. On many builds, that stuff is used up with bracers, books, belt, gloves, etc. So you throw on an attribute you don’t need or just leave it empty.

Flexible shards give you valid alternatives that are not on the standard list. But those are now supposedly gone.

if we were given the old system, I could instead go with a higher stat item because not throwing on another attribute gives me a little room. But that’s now gone too.

Adding another slot so that I can potentially throw on another stat that I don’t really need (you know, like Diplo on an Intim tank) isn’t “flexibility.” It’s useless.

And don’t tell me about augments. Many augments – like stat augments – are virtually useless in heroic. I don’t get a +6 stat until lvl 20, but I can craft a +6 useable by a MUCH lower level toon. I think this holds true of most augments in the game today.

Granted, a lot of this – on both side of the argument – is speculation because none of us really know what they are going to put in there. But based on the old system, I think I am correct about the direction this is going. Because to do otherwise is to introduce EVEN MORE power-creep than what they propose. There have to be limits somewhere.

So yes. They are removing flexibility from crafting. A lot of it, actually.

[Greantun]

I don’t get what people don’t understand about this.
Have you actually crafted anything with the current system? You get to something like a necklace, and you’re left with maybe slotting a stat value, and then it’s basically the same old diplo / bluff / balance / swim / disable device stuff with some saves thrown in. On many builds, that stuff is used up with bracers, books, belt, gloves, etc. So you throw on an attribute you don’t need or just leave it empty.

Flexible shards give you valid alternatives that are not on the standard list. But those are now supposedly gone.

if we were given the old system, I could instead go with a higher stat item because not throwing on another attribute gives me a little room. But that’s now gone too.


Not sure where you get the information, and maybe you looked but didn't understand. I should be able to create (all values max for the ML) for a STR based character:

- Bracers with STR, CON and Insightful STR
- Necklace with HEAL, Sheltering and Insightful Heal
- Head with Intimidate, Accuracy, Insightful Fortification
- Ring 1 with PRR, False Life, Insightful CON
- Ring 2 with Balance, Feather Falling, Insightful False Life
- Gloves with Doublestrike, Heal AMP, Insightful Doublestrike
- Belt with Deathblock, Natural Armor Bonus, Insightful Dodge
- Cloak with Elemental Resistances, Dodge, Insightful Sheltering
- Feet has to be RNG, because we can't do speed

Certainly some of these could be named items, but if you went without named, I think this would be pretty good for a melee STR build. A lot of the things I mentioned above are on multiple items, and yes, there are going to be cases where you might have to sacrifice an enchantment if you want, but many are in different locations.

[Ulfo]

Whether it's officially a bug or an exploit or neither of the above, however, putting 3 affixes on a shard is not WAI.

And why you think here was 3 affixes? Personally I see here ONE affix, ONE prefix and ONE... both. ;)


You know how I know? Because they've clearly stated that in the current system, it's supposed to be a prefix, a suffix, and (on weapons and armor) an enhancement bonus.

Oh, and it's clearly why I say before I know about issue more than devs, lol. NoWorries say only 2 effect can be crafted with old CC - I'm demonstrate he's incorrect. It's simple, really! ;)


And I really don't care enough to go looking for the posts to prove it, but if you'd like to find posts that prove me wrong and that having 3 affixes is WAI, be my guest.

No-no-no, Davide Blain!!! Scientific approach to the solution of problems is familiar to you? You say: "something not WAI"? The burden of the proof lies on you! Or, as may say Baktiotha ( teachers often use Latin 8) ): Ei incumbit probatio, qui dicit, non qui negat! 8)

[SisAmethyst]

The mechanic to trade tomes for Ebberon Dragon Shards is already in the game, all we are asking for is to be able to trade higher level (btc) stat and skill tomes also. Right now they are just wasted space, and it is lame to drag and destroy an Item just because it is of no use to your char, the turn in for Ebberon shards at least gives you something.

I do know that, but I think it is something different if you just run a couple of quest to lvl 30 and get along the way the +2 favor tome or if you burn items in crafting that are on raid level.


Agreed I still have btc +3 tomes from shroud and tod 20th rewards back in the day when they didn't carry over to a TR so I didn't want to use them.

Don't get me wrong, I do have those too and I do would like to get some use out of them. Maybe the idea to make them BtA was a stupid idea but still I think there are better options to bring them to some use then for this crafting. After all I also have some old raid gear e.g. from the Titan and other BtC items that have zero use anymore except of wasting bank space, but I don't want to see them to turn up as crafting ingredient neither.

[dunklezhan]

Have we resolved whether the stunning stones will be in the new CC?

Has anyone suggested allowing CC to make Jewellers Kits?

If not, allow me to bring up both :)

[dunklezhan]

No-no-no, Davide Blain!!! Scientific approach to the solution of problems is familiar to you? You say: "something not WAI"? The burden of the proof lies on you! Or, as may say Baktiotha ( teachers often use Latin 8) ): Ei incumbit probatio, qui dicit, non qui negat! 8)

I think you're mistaking 'scientific' for something else. In Science you don't even bother trying to prove the absence of something, because you can't. Also, there's no burden of proof required, not really. This isn't a court of law.

I could argue that there is a burden of trust - you could, for example, trust people who were around longer than you, and who were here when CC was introduced, rather than sticking to your 'I'm not physically prevented from doing this so it must be ok'. I'm not physically prevented from walking outside and urinating on someone without their consent. Is that ok? If my chosen receptacle disagree that its ok, should they have to go print out the legislation and show me it before I agree not to urinate on them? What if that specific scenario is not covered? Is it ok then? I bet it isn't covered, so I suggest you go try it and see how well it holds up in court.

And if we want to get into Latin, your quote is about the one who declares needing to prove. And that's you since you brought it up first. All other folk have done is say that you are wrong - so you are the one upon whom the burden of proof rests, and all you have done thus far is show that such a thing is possible - which is not at all the same thing and proving that it's WAI, or within the rules.

As I say, it is possible for me to walk outside and urinate on someone. When they arrest me, I'm pretty sure 'but I wasn't physically prevented from doing it' isn't going to hold much water. Assuming I'm still alive after the person in question beats the hell out of me... which they also won't be prevented from doing even though its Not OK.


No. You are smart enough to quote latin, so I would hope you're smart enough to do your own digging as to the veractity of your view now that someone has challenged it.

Otherwise, you have are basically saying 'because I can do this thing and am not prevented then it must be ok', which is more or less the logic of the Spanish Inquisition: "this thing is right because it is I who am doing it and there's no-one stopping me".

They loved Latin too. It didn't make them right, nor did it magically enable them to form a cogent argument.

[slarden]

Don't get me wrong, I do have those too and I do would like to get some use out of them. Maybe the idea to make them BtA was a stupid idea but still I think there are better options to bring them to some use then for this crafting. After all I also have some old raid gear e.g. from the Titan and other BtC items that have zero use anymore except of wasting bank space, but I don't want to see them to turn up as crafting ingredient neither.

+1 and +2 tomes can already be turned into purified eberron dragonshard fragments. All we are asking is that we can do the same with higher-value tomes. When Cannith Crafting was new +3/4 tomes were the most sought after item in the game. Today a +3 btc tome from 2011 is obsolete if it wasn't already used.

[slarden]

If you get three slots, and can only slot 1 attribute you want, and 2 you don't want, then it is no different than being limited to having 2 slots. Because if it's useless, it doesn't get better if you add the option to pile more useless on top of it.

There are so many options it's hard for me to understand why you can't find anything. Sure it would be nice to fit a necklace item on a boot, but it will be the exception when I choose random loot over my own crafted item. DC casters obviously will want max values only available on random loot, but for most characters it won't matter and I can think of ways to replace almost all the random loot I am currently wearing with the new crafted gear (excluding higher tier values not available with cannith crafting for DC builds - casters, assassins, etc.).

If anything I would be pushing to bring max level closer to random gear which is max level 40. CC max level will be 34 I believe - I would rather see it be 37 rather than being able to put a necklace ability on a boot.

Trinkets will be very flexible based on some previous posts.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

And why you think here was 3 affixes? Personally I see here ONE affix, ONE prefix and ONE... both. ;)

No. I see one prefix (at the start), and one suffix (at the end) and one I have no idea where it goes 'cause I really just can't be futzed enough to look it up. That's three affixes. A prefix is an affix. A suffix is an affix. But an affix can be either a prefix or a suffix.




Oh, and it's clearly why I say before I know about issue more than devs, lol. NoWorries say only 2 effect can be crafted with old CC - I'm demonstrate he's incorrect. It's simple, really! ;)



No-no-no, Davide Blain!!! Scientific approach to the solution of problems is familiar to you? You say: "something not WAI"? The burden of the proof lies on you! Or, as may say Baktiotha ( teachers often use Latin 8) ): Ei incumbit probatio, qui dicit, non qui negat! 8)

Except... this isn't a "scientific approach to the solution of problems". This is me saying how it's intended to be working based on years of reading devs say variations of "one prefix, one suffix, and on weapons and armor an enhancement bonus". Also based on years of crafting in which, except for a very few outliers that I haven't cared enough about to craft, that's how it works. I don't really care if you believe me or not. Your agreement or disagreement doesn't affect me the slightest. So I don't give enough of a futz to go look them up. I don't need to prove something to you, because I don't care. If you don't believe me... well, that's up to you. You want to convince me otherwise? YOU do the work of looking up where a dev says otherwise.

And frankly? This conversation bores me, and I'm done.

Except... OH WAIT, YOU JUST WENT AND DID IT FOR ME. Right there. Where you say NoWorries says that only 2 can be crafted. That's how it's intended. ONLY TWO AFFIXES. One prefix, one suffix (and on weapons an armor, an enhancement bonus). Perhaps he should have said "only 2 SHOULD BE ABLE TO be crafted" rather than can... but that's a pretty clear statement of intent as to how it should be working in my books.