Everything is Nothing Requirement - LE Shroud

[slarden]

I was wondering if anyone tested EIN in LE Shroud and what wisdom is required to get it to work reliably. How about just the gnolls in part IV?

I've always been confused about what type of save EIN goes against - it seems to work too well for it to be a fort save. Does anyone know what type of save it is? I can't seem to locate that info anywhere.

[CaptainPurge]

On activation, enemies in a large radius from you must make a saving throw (DC 20 + character level +1/2 WIS mod) or be erased from multiverse.

Sorry brox

[slarden]

On activation, enemies in a large radius from you must make a saving throw (DC 20 + character level +1/2 WIS mod) or be erased from multiverse.

Sorry brox

Yeah that doesn't say what type of saving throw.

[CaptainPurge]

Yeah that doesn't say what type of saving throw.
It's not fortitude?

[slarden]

It's not fortitude?

It doesn't say and seems to be working better than I would expect if it went against a fort save. Since it seems to be similar to Hurl which goes against will I thought I would try to confirm what the save type is.

The description of a scattering of petals specifically says fortitude save. The only specific mention of fortitude save in EIN relates specifically to the damage portion. The save type for erasing enemies from the multiverse isn't mentioned.

[CaptainPurge]

It doesn't say and seems to be working better than I would expect if it went against a fort save. Since it seems to be similar to Hurl which goes against will I thought I would try to confirm what the save type is.

The description of a scattering of petals specifically says fortitude save. The only specific mention of fortitude save in EIN relates specifically to the damage portion. The save type for erasing enemies from the multiverse isn't mentioned.

I can't compare Warlock abilities - Hurl - to current Monk abilities - EIN. Played a WIS monk for a long time, the QP nerf hurt but we adapted as we needed. I am not an expert on current WIS monks to further comment but wish you luck good sir.

[PermaBanned]

I was wondering if anyone tested EIN in LE Shroud and what wisdom is required to get it to work reliably. How about just the gnolls in part IV?

I've always been confused about what type of save EIN goes against - it seems to work too well for it to be a fort save. Does anyone know what type of save it is? I can't seem to locate that info anywhere.

I'm not sure who runs the "Order of Syncletica" web site, but according to this post from that site (https://orderofsyncletica.wordpress.com/tag/number-crunching/) talking about Monk DC stuff, it's a Fort save.

No idea of the validity of the info, but it's all I could find. If you find a better (or rather, known to be accurate) source please share, this has been on my curiosity list too ;)

[Robbenklopper]

I was wondering if anyone tested EIN in LE Shroud and what wisdom is required to get it to work reliably. How about just the gnolls in part IV?

I've always been confused about what type of save EIN goes against - it seems to work too well for it to be a fort save. Does anyone know what type of save it is? I can't seem to locate that info anywhere.

Yeah, that was always unsatisfying from beginning vs. WHAT EiN was to roll. I might be wrong, but my assumption from experience was it seemed to be vs. Fortitude. I consider a DC 93 a safe hit and a DC 85 the Minimum. That would mean WIS 80 is the lower end to have a Chance on a successful EiN in LShroud, or WIS 106 for a safe nuke.

[J1NG]

EiN is a Will save effect exactly like Hurl. However if you save against it do you then make a second save that is Fortitude to see how much damage you take. If save is successful you still take 500 untyped damage.

In short.
1. Will save or be erased.
2. Fortitude save or take 1000 damage.

Gnolls have too much Will saves on Elite to be able to EiN them. At best it gives you an extra 5 seconds of non healing on Arraetrikos. Any DC of 58 +- 2 will work on Normal and Hard difficulty though with lower success in Hard. I've personally saved a run before using that DC on Hard when it became obvious that the group was lacking the dps for the run. But that was more a fluke of all Gnolls luckily rolling 1s or something.

J1NG

[Robbenklopper]

EiN is a Will save effect exactly like Hurl. However if you save against it do you then make a second save that is Fortitude to see how much damage you take. If save is successful you still take 500 untyped damage.

In short.
1. Will save or be erased.
2. Fortitude save or take 1000 damage.

Gnolls have too much Will saves on Elite to be able to EiN them. At best it gives you an extra 5 seconds of non healing on Arraetrikos. Any DC of 58 +- 2 will work on Normal and Hard difficulty though with lower success in Hard. I've personally saved a run before using that DC on Hard when it became obvious that the group was lacking the dps for the run. But that was more a fluke of all Gnolls luckily rolling 1s or something.

J1NG

So ... vs. Will ... ? Good to know, but where did you found that info?

[J1NG]

So ... vs. Will ... ? Good to know, but where did you found that info?

Self test. (Over period of a few years since Destiny's were introduced)

Wis dumped Monk EiN's known Fort Save Heavy mobs. See's them all disappear.
Wis dumped Monk EiN's known Will Save Heavy mobs. Most remain in stunned form.

Wis heavy Monk EiN's known Fort Save Heavy mobs. See's them all disappear.
Wis heavy Monk EiN's known Will Save Heavy mobs. Most dissappear.

J1NG

[slarden]

EiN is a Will save effect exactly like Hurl. However if you save against it do you then make a second save that is Fortitude to see how much damage you take. If save is successful you still take 500 untyped damage.

In short.
1. Will save or be erased.
2. Fortitude save or take 1000 damage.

Gnolls have too much Will saves on Elite to be able to EiN them. At best it gives you an extra 5 seconds of non healing on Arraetrikos. Any DC of 58 +- 2 will work on Normal and Hard difficulty though with lower success in Hard. I've personally saved a run before using that DC on Hard when it became obvious that the group was lacking the dps for the run. But that was more a fluke of all Gnolls luckily rolling 1s or something.

J1NG

Thank you for doing the testing. This is what it seemed like based on very limited data, but I wasn't sure.

My limited testing/observation on gnolls Part IV EH:
- Necromancer with 90s necro DC ~100% success wail on EH if I time it right (as they come in before they get the crazy high spell resist)
- Illusionist with no focus on necro having a low 70s Wail DC success rate <20% on EH (same timing and approach with wail)
- The few monk EINs I've seen clears the room of gnolls - seems 100% like hurl is in there (very small sample size due to how few people play melee monk)

And given Monk EIN potential based on the formula assuming a monk wisdom of around 90

20 + 30 + 20 (Half of the 40 wisdom modifier) = 70 DC For EIN

So this is why I thought either something else is added to monk EIN or it's saving against a different stat.

Too bad that isn't good enough for LE shroud. Good to know 60 or so works for EH - thank you.

PUGs on Sarlona don't always kill Harry in 1st round Part IV on EH.

[Robbenklopper]

Delete

[JOTMON]

meh, EIN is a one trick pony that is only really useful in large flash mob spawns in open area scenario's..
Shroud is not that place.

Shroud is waves of small packs of spawns and really, sustained portal/Boss DPS is what is expected from melees
nerfing melee damage output to build a useful Wisdom DC for EIN along with a 5min cooldown is not ideal.

Focus DPS from everyone and get part iV done in 1 round.. holding back and expecting a round 2 just leads to... doom..

[slarden]

meh, EIN is a one trick pony that is only really useful in large flash mob spawns in open area scenario's..
Shroud is not that place.

Shroud is waves of small packs of spawns and really, sustained portal/Boss DPS is what is expected from melees
nerfing melee damage output to build a useful Wisdom DC for EIN along with a 5min cooldown is not ideal.

Focus DPS from everyone and get part iV done in 1 round.. holding back and expecting a round 2 just leads to... doom..

I don't think you build for EIN - you build a solid melee and add EIN to it. At least from my testing you can get solid dps and still pack EIN.

Hurl is the same issue really. You get the hurl but most of the stuff doesn't take the fire pact damage in Legendary Shroud so it's less dps compared to a fey or goo build, but people still want a hurler in the party.

And of course you never plan to go 2+ rounds in part IV. You end up joining a PUG where some people don't have DR breakers and it happens. If you have that funny feeling the group dps might be a little weak based on experience - well maybe pack EIN to take down the crystal and help with Part IV.

With Power Surge, gear, etc. it's not too hard to get to the 60 DC mentioned below considering with 1 wisdom you are already at 50. And there is no reason why you can't switch between LD and GMOF as well depending on the party needs.

Build a solid DPS toon - make sure you can get to a 60s DC - switch to GMOF when the situation warrants it (no hurler, party dps looks a little weak) - win.

[nokowi]

I was wondering if anyone tested EIN in LE Shroud and what wisdom is required to get it to work reliably. How about just the gnolls in part IV?

I've always been confused about what type of save EIN goes against - it seems to work too well for it to be a fort save. Does anyone know what type of save it is? I can't seem to locate that info anywhere.

I'm really really bad with names but I think its Lutse on Sarlona that destroys LH shroud (100+ kills) using EIN on a monk. He usually runs early evening (central US time).

Send him a message in-game and he should be able to tell you exactly what is required. Tell him Nokowi says hi.

I'm not sure on his LE experience, but he could simply step in with you and find out.

[Enoach]

meh, EIN is a one trick pony that is only really useful in large flash mob spawns in open area scenario's..
Shroud is not that place.

Shroud is waves of small packs of spawns and really, sustained portal/Boss DPS is what is expected from melees
nerfing melee damage output to build a useful Wisdom DC for EIN along with a 5min cooldown is not ideal.

Focus DPS from everyone and get part iV done in 1 round.. holding back and expecting a round 2 just leads to... doom..

I disagree that it is one-trick-pony.
I agree you should not hold back on focused DPS.
I agree that you should always have a back-up plan for the just in case it takes more than one round. I look at it as insurance, have it hope never to have to use it. We as players have most likely ran into several possible contributions to multiple rounds.


Lag related issues
Have the DPS in theory, but not the ability to stand up. Players dying to blade damage and groups not able to raise them fast enough
Simply low DPS on boss - Not enough umph behind the hit or simply trying to power through DR. I've seen groups with High Portal DPS get stymied by Boss fight DPS.
Groups were people simply don't contribute DPS - the Others will get this.


I play a DC Wizard and I know for me in Part IV I switch gear to maximize Spell Power Output vs DC for such spells, spit out DOTs and my highest damage spells preferring spells not resistant by Boss and I keep them going just as fast as the cooldowns allow me. But I also have a bauble, Twisted talisman(s) and Ring of Spell storing to fall back on if multiple rounds happen. And I also realize that is not always true for others that are playing DC casters.

[JOTMON]

I don't think you build for EIN - you build a solid melee and add EIN to it. At least from my testing you can get solid dps and still pack EIN.

Hurl is the same issue really. You get the hurl but most of the stuff doesn't take the fire pact damage in Legendary Shroud so it's less dps compared to a fey or goo build, but people still want a hurler in the party.

And of course you never plan to go 2+ rounds in part IV. You end up joining a PUG where some people don't have DR breakers and it happens. If you have that funny feeling the group dps might be a little weak based on experience - well maybe pack EIN to take down the crystal and help with Part IV.

With Power Surge, gear, etc. it's not too hard to get to the 60 DC mentioned below considering with 1 wisdom you are already at 50. And there is no reason why you can't switch between LD and GMOF as well depending on the party needs.

Build a solid DPS toon - make sure you can get to a 60s DC - switch to GMOF when the situation warrants it (no hurler, party dps looks a little weak) - win.

Did I miss something here? isn't this thread about 'Everything is Nothing Requirement - LE Shroud'
not a thread about swapping an EIN in for a pug normal/hard run of shroud to haphazardly swap in GMOF for a mediocre DC because the party looks part IV weak or may not have dr breakers.
for LE you need to get a DC that matters (80+.. emphasis on the + or that's just more fail chances) which you would have to build/invest into Wisdom.

Hurl is completely different.. Hurl is CHA based which synchs up with the Warlocks primary focus stat.. making it much easier for a Warlock to focus on a high DC..
yeah you lose a few points of pact damage from fire.. but the warlock core power isn't coming from the pact elemental damage.. that's just a bonus..


Monks took a hit when they screwed with the Quivering Palm and effectively killed off the Wisdom focus monk..
perhaps if we get a WIS to hit/damage in some future pass you may see some more wisdom monks instead of dreadnaught/fury monks in endgame worthy content.

a pug monk with less than half the damage of a dreadnaught/fury build even with the 5 min cooldown kill trash aoe blast would not be on my preference list for a LE shroud..
The reality is fast brute DPS wins., the longer you take the more trash you have to deal with, and the more likely the group will fail.

[slarden]

Did I miss something here? isn't this thread about 'Everything is Nothing Requirement - LE Shroud'
not a thread about swapping an EIN in for a pug normal/hard run of shroud to haphazardly swap in GMOF for a mediocre DC because the party looks part IV weak or may not have dr breakers.
for LE you need to get a DC that matters (80+.. emphasis on the + or that's just more fail chances) which you would have to build/invest into Wisdom.

Hurl is completely different.. Hurl is CHA based which synchs up with the Warlocks primary focus stat.. making it much easier for a Warlock to focus on a high DC..
yeah you lose a few points of pact damage from fire.. but the warlock core power isn't coming from the pact elemental damage.. that's just a bonus..


Monks took a hit when they screwed with the Quivering Palm and effectively killed off the Wisdom focus monk..
perhaps if we get a WIS to hit/damage in some future pass you may see some more wisdom monks instead of dreadnaught/fury monks in endgame worthy content.

a pug monk with less than half the damage of a dreadnaught/fury build even with the 5 min cooldown kill trash aoe blast would not be on my preference list for a LE shroud..
The reality is fast brute DPS wins., the longer you take the more trash you have to deal with, and the more likely the group will fail.

well it's already been established ein won't work in le so my question on that was already answered. Most le shroud on sarlona are pug and most of those are multilingual. There are very few and most are hosted early morning by Chinese guilds.

Ein works better than advertised in eh shroud which is the reason I asked the question. I dispute that a character with ein automatically has bad dps. There are many ways to make a solid character and the difference in dps is nowhere near what you claim in your post.

[JOTMON]

well it's already been established ein won't work in le so my question on that was already answered. Most le shroud on sarlona are pug and most of those are multilingual. There are very few and most are hosted early morning by Chinese guilds.

Ein works better than advertised in eh shroud which is the reason I asked the question. I dispute that a character with ein automatically has bad dps. There are many ways to make a solid character and the difference in dps is nowhere near what you claim in your post.

dispute all you like. a GMOF monk is inferior DPS compared to Legendary/Fury.

[slarden]

dispute all you like. a GMOF monk is inferior DPS compared to Legendary/Fury.

Of course, but not by nearly as much as you claim unless you care to show me a centered kensai fighter in gmof doing < half the damage of a centered kensai fighter in LD.

I welcome some math to prove that you being in gmof is less than half the damage. I led the kill count in shroud with a centered kensai in gmof by a large margin and boss dps was solid.

[relenttless]

dispute all you like. a monk is inferior DPS

Fixed that for you......