Time to Abolish Bravery Bonuses...

[TakeItToTheLimit]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.

[Qhualor]

I do agree that something needs to change with BB, but even if it was abolished in heroics I would only run elite and solo most of the time. heroic elite content isn't as challenging as it once was.

[Hafeal]

I will disagree only to say that the "time" to abolish BB was years ago, not now.

BB was ill-conceived and not well thought out. There have been any number of discussions about much better alternatives to replace that xp.

:cool:

[awar1234]

I do agree that something needs to change with BB, but even if it was abolished in heroics I would only run elite and solo most of the time. heroic elite content isn't as challenging as it once was.

Great! A council member who seems elitist and concerned about his own play style..

The OP was trying to help new player retention. If you are not interested in the rest of the population ( "I only play elite or solo") then please remove yourself from the council and let's get someone who cares about others and wants to grow the game..

ps ... Heroic elite IS CHALLENGING to a first life new player..

[slarden]

The grouping bonus would have been better but for a long time there were people arguing elite wasn't rewarding enough and there was no incentive to run it. That is the way the game should be - running elite is it's own reward so everyone isn't motivated by loot and xp to run it.

[Lonnbeimnech]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.

1. If you waited for other players before starting the quest, one of them would most likely have opened it on elite for you.

2. Before bravery bonus you had to have beaten it on normal before you can open hard, and had to beat hard before you could open elite. The only exceptions were if you were vip or bought a difficulty unlock from the ddo store. After BB you can also open on hard if you have 1 past life and on elite if you have 2 or more.

[Minezeye]

I cant say I am fully enjoying the system either, but I do love the core concept of a stacking xp bonus based on risk
The bravery one kinda puts up these invisible mental walls in your mind of sorts so as to prevent your losing the bonus...which can be troublesome for grouping.

As a new player and first lifer it was a strange concept to grasp and I have the same problems as you.
People join then realize its bad for their bravery stacks then leave....even had someone do this on Devil Assault...and its like the only quest that specifically don't erase bravery.

You can mouse over an area in the groups lfmore window to see what difficulty a group is doing before you join.

I have gotten the hang of it, but as a premium and first life I have to resort on other people to open up hard and elite.
This is the crux of the problem I think and what makes me not want to join "normal" difficulty groups...true.

Not to sound elitist but personally I find normal difficulty to be way to easy anyway. Unless your running quests like 4-5 lvls above you maybe?
Even more so in a group...alot of times I join a normal group everyone is racing around so fast one shotting its not really enjoyable anyway...

So now I just use normal mode as a solo (hireling?) learning mode of sorts. Sorry. :(

[Qhualor]

Great! A council member who seems elitist and concerned about his own play style..

The OP was trying to help new player retention. If you are not interested in the rest of the population ( "I only play elite or solo") then please remove yourself from the council and let's get someone who cares about others and wants to grow the game..

ps ... Heroic elite IS CHALLENGING to a first life new player..

you should re-read what I posted. I did not say anything about heroics not challenging for new players or first lifers. I was saying it isn't mostly challenging for me and I wouldn't stop running elites even if there was no BB.

also, I'm going to point out that I have been behind improvements for new players, BB, balance in difficulty settings and promoting grouping for years. these are things I have brought up on the Council forums. you're welcome.

[Uska]

No it won't help grouping almost nothing will. We have lower population that doesn't help but what killed grouping most of you won't want to give up and even if they did away with it I think it's too late. 2hat killed grouping.


1. Power creep
2. Over abundance of self-healing
3. Over abundance of Monty Haul loot
4. Removal of some group required mechanics (shouldn't be in all quests)
5. HIRRLINGS

LEAVE BRAVERY BONUS ALONE I only really play heroic as I don't enjoy epic much so why should something I use be taken away especially when it won't do what you think it will and in fact is likely to be a point to make even more players quit

[Uska]

Great! A council member who seems elitist and concerned about his own play style..

The OP was trying to help new player retention. If you are not interested in the rest of the population ( "I only play elite or solo") then please remove yourself from the council and let's get someone who cares about others and wants to grow the game..

ps ... Heroic elite IS CHALLENGING to a first life new player..

New players can't open on elite without veteran players grouping with them problem solved well if they go VIP but how many do that any more

[Axeyu]

No. Bravery bonus is a great system. Incentivicing harder/engaging content is a good thing.

[Enoach]

I think a lot of times there is confusion on what Bravery Bonus actually brings to the table. Personally, I think the Streak bonus is the problem and not the Bravery Bonus.

Bravery Bonus is simply 10% for First Time on Hard and 20% for First Time on Elite. This applies on the First Time you run that quest. It does not matter what you ran the previous quest on, it only matters that you are doing this quest for the first time this life.

Streak Bonus is the 5% and 10% stacking up to 5x maximum benefit so max 25% for Hard and 50% for Elite. This does matter what you ran the previous quests on. This is the bonus most players don't want to lose and why we now have an ability to suspend the bonus (Aboard Ship and in Hall of Heroes).

Bravery Bonus is not the problem, the problem is the Streak Bonus. The problem is that people have given a number above 5 emotional value and because of that actually fear losing it. Personally, if removing the streak is not an option, things I would like to see changed...

Cap the Stack at 5 - No matter how many are done after 5 simply leave it at 5.
Reset the Stack on TR and IR. The character is starting over, and part of the emotional value is brought on because it is sustained over multiple lives with people reaching very high numbers where the value of 5 is the same benefit but the loss of the high number can be emotionally devastating, where the loss of 5 most players wouldn't balk at.

[Axeyu]

I think a lot of times there is confusion on what Bravery Bonus actually brings to the table. Personally, I think the Streak bonus is the problem and not the Bravery Bonus.

Bravery Bonus is simply 10% for First Time on Hard and 20% for First Time on Elite. This applies on the First Time you run that quest. It does not matter what you ran the previous quest on, it only matters that you are doing this quest for the first time this life.

Streak Bonus is the 5% and 10% stacking up to 5x maximum benefit so max 25% for Hard and 50% for Elite. This does matter what you ran the previous quests on. This is the bonus most players don't want to lose and why we now have an ability to suspend the bonus (Aboard Ship and in Hall of Heroes).

Bravery Bonus is not the problem, the problem is the Streak Bonus. The problem is that people have given a number above 5 emotional value and because of that actually fear losing it. Personally, if removing the streak is not an option, things I would like to see changed...

Cap the Stack at 5 - No matter how many are done after 5 simply leave it at 5.
Reset the Stack on TR and IR. The character is starting over, and part of the emotional value is brought on because it is sustained over multiple lives with people reaching very high numbers where the value of 5 is the same benefit but the loss of the high number can be emotionally devastating, where the loss of 5 most players wouldn't balk at.


Having the streak counter and bonus to incentivice you to play the harder and more engaging mode is a good thing.

[slarden]

I think a lot of times there is confusion on what Bravery Bonus actually brings to the table. Personally, I think the Streak bonus is the problem and not the Bravery Bonus.

Bravery Bonus is simply 10% for First Time on Hard and 20% for First Time on Elite. This applies on the First Time you run that quest. It does not matter what you ran the previous quest on, it only matters that you are doing this quest for the first time this life.

Streak Bonus is the 5% and 10% stacking up to 5x maximum benefit so max 25% for Hard and 50% for Elite. This does matter what you ran the previous quests on. This is the bonus most players don't want to lose and why we now have an ability to suspend the bonus (Aboard Ship and in Hall of Heroes).

Bravery Bonus is not the problem, the problem is the Streak Bonus. The problem is that people have given a number above 5 emotional value and because of that actually fear losing it. Personally, if removing the streak is not an option, things I would like to see changed...

Cap the Stack at 5 - No matter how many are done after 5 simply leave it at 5.
Reset the Stack on TR and IR. The character is starting over, and part of the emotional value is brought on because it is sustained over multiple lives with people reaching very high numbers where the value of 5 is the same benefit but the loss of the high number can be emotionally devastating, where the loss of 5 most players wouldn't balk at.


Agreed, first time bonuses are fine, it's the streak that is the problem. A grouping bonus would have better especially since part of the reason for the initiative was to encourage people to group thinking the harder difficulties would require that.

[Gremmlynn]

Great! A council member who seems elitist and concerned about his own play style..That's a valid demographic and thus a valuable viewpoint for the devs to have access to in order to make decisions about how all players feel about the game.

[FranOhmsford]

I cant say I am fully enjoying the system either, but I do love the core concept of a stacking xp bonus based on risk
The bravery one kinda puts up these invisible mental walls in your mind of sorts so as to prevent your losing the bonus...which can be troublesome for grouping.

The problem with BB is that the Bonus itself was way way too large - A full 70% with 5 Streak!

A better way to have done BB (and I know I've argued against this in the past for the obvious reason that requiring players to run quests at lower levels does make the game significantly more difficult) would be to have had an underlevel bonus:
So if you're at Max Normal Character Level say a Lvl 1 running Elite Cannith Crystal or a Lvl 9 running Elite VoN 3 or a Lvl 18 running Elite High Road you'd receive +20% Bravery Bonus.
And if you're at Max Hard Character Level say a Lvl 2 in Cannith Crystal Elite, a Lvl 10 in VoN 3 Elite or a Lvl 19 in High Road Elite you'd receive +10% Bravery Bonus
That 10% would also count for running Hard Difficulty at Normal or Lower level but you'd never receive +20% for running Hards.

Streak should be gotten rid of entirely and replaced with Group Bonuses - +5% per player other than Leader in Group up to +25% for 6. {Maybe even allow Plat Bought Hirelings to count but not Goldseal Hires, Owlbears or Panthers}.



As for Epics the difference between the Base XP of EN, EH and EE is ludicrously low!
There are many Epic Quests that are simply not worth running even on EE because 1) You've already got the favour from running them on Heroic AND 2) They give a 3rd or even less of the XP on EE that EN VoN 3, Wiz King or Spies give!

Epic Quests {and those of Lvls 17-20 Heroic} need a root and branch reappraisal of XP - Not just nerfing VoN 3 etc. but rearranging the XP to make ALL Quests viable to run on EH and EE.
No-one other than the rankest newbie to Epics and even then only if Soloing should be running the likes of The Snitch or Tharashk Arena on EN!
They should be pushing to run EH at the least.

And Epics need XP Penalties for EN too - Lvl 30s getting full Karma XP from EN VoN 3 etc. is just ridiculous!

We need minimum levels to enter to return - Lvl 20s in Legendary Quests is equally ridiculous! This means that Legendary Quests cannot be tuned to be challenging to Lvl 30s!

We need higher level Epic Quests like Inferno or Vol to give out higher XP - Atm the entire E-Orchard Chain gives less XP than running EN VoN 3 twice!

[Gremmlynn]

New players can't open on elite without veteran players grouping with them problem solved well if they go VIP but how many do that any moreDon't want to pay for the service, don't get the service. That's just how life works. If there's an issue here, it's an issue with some players feeling entitled to more than they are paying for.

[Gremmlynn]

No. Bravery bonus is a great system. Incentivicing harder/engaging content is a good thing.Why?

If DDO were some sort of self improvement program, or some sort of competition, that would make sense. But it's not, so Turbine really shouldn't be giving players reasons to play in a manner those players may not see as being the most entertaining. That's just counterproductive to being an entertainment service.

[RoberttheBard]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.

Then they're doing it wrong. My solution, on the random times that I have actually joined a pug is to have them leave the quest, reset it and then I open it on Elite. Problem solved. If they're not willing to do so, then I have the option to drop and form my own group. Abolishing the bonus won't magically fix pugging, as we can see from the very first reply to your thread.

Better communication whist in a group will help. Limiting the "Noob Syndrome" or elitist attitudes will help. But, and this is for lack of a better word, "punishing" those that can maintain a streak isn't the solution. The actual problem is people getting in a group with an xp/min grinder that can't, or won't take the time to explain mechanics, build choices, or teach the game to new players. Removing BB won't fix those either, as they existed before BB existed. The XP remains the same per quest for every life, but from 3rd life on, you need twice the xp per level as a first lifer. Removing BB for some will just mean that they don't TR any more, and remain in epic levels, which kills heroic level pugging even more, due to a lack of people playing. Alternatively, they might go so far as to form a static TR group, which will also kill pugging, since they won't be throwing groups up on the LFM panel.

You can't "force" a playstyle on other players. Removing BB won't fix the issue you see with the game, but could make it worse.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Why?

If DDO were some sort of self improvement program, or some sort of competition, that would make sense. But it's not, so Turbine really shouldn't be giving players reasons to play in a manner those players may not see as being the most entertaining. That's just counterproductive to being an entertainment service.

Before BB, people would run quests 11 times on normal and then move on to the next quest. It was extremely boring. People complained about it all the time. People hating TRing.

It is way more common to see multi TRs these days, because you just need to do quests once on elite to get enough XP to cap.

[Gremmlynn]

Before BB, people would run quests 11 times on normal and then move on to the next quest. It was extremely boring. People complained about it all the time. People hating TRing.

It is way more common to see multi TRs these days, because you just need to do quests once on elite to get enough XP to cap.That was an xp availability issue. The new ransack mechanics have pretty much fixed it, along with simply having more content. Though it was also a people choosing to do what they find boring issue. Can't heal stupid, as they say.

[Astraghal]

There's an NPC that can suspend Bravery Bonus for those who wish to do so.

[LongshotBro]

On a quasi-related note, i simply wish it were more clear to people on the UI about the streak.

The other day i was in a PUG, going along just fine. A few of us were like, hey let's give Zawabi's Revenge a shot. We're all of us over-level, with the highest among us being 17. So, obviously, doing it for fun and loot not xp/min. None of us has actually done the raid more than once or twice either.

The star steps inside, we all follow. One fella is like "normal? Can't break my BB or streak, let's reset and do elite." The rest of us are like, we're not very confident of being able to complete on elite but he says he could solo it so, okay why not give it a shot.

Well of course, it doesn't end well. TPK. Elite fella says "guess you guys weren't strong enough." First of all, rude. Second, this character went down pretty easily as well. But mostly, the whole time i'm thinking "you're not even getting BB!"

If it's xp/min that's so important and BB such a part of that, and the fella joined an obviously over-level group, there's more xp/min for finishing on normal than for wiping on elite.

[Baktiotha]

Great! A council member who seems elitist and concerned about his own play style..

The OP was trying to help new player retention. If you are not interested in the rest of the population ( "I only play elite or solo") then please remove yourself from the council and let's get someone who cares about others and wants to grow the game..

ps ... Heroic elite IS CHALLENGING to a first life new player..

The problem is not bravery bonus.

I don't know if people know this, but they can always create groups and allow/encourage new players to join. They can always be open and welcoming. They can always take time to play the quest with a "sniff the flowers" approach in order to allow the new players to experience the quest in all of its first time ever glory.

Bravery bonus is not what stops this from happening -- player choices is what stops this from happening. If bravery bonus ended today it would not stop those players who are soloing content on elite from soloing content on elite. It would not cause those players to all of a sudden develop a sense of community and magnanimity towards new players.

The problem is not bravery bonus it is the players.

Here is the solution -- if YOU don't like that and want to be more useful/helpful/friendly to new players then YOU don't quest unless you post a group targeting new players. And, when you quest, take the time to let the new players take the lead, break every breakable, collect every collectible, complete every optional and just act as a shepherd making sure that the group eventually finishes successfully. ;)

[Marshal_Lannes]

You can pause bravery bonuses, I don't see any reason to tinker more than this.

[SirValentine]

The people who won't play with you on Normal now wouldn't have played with you in the pre-BB days, either. They'd be running the same quest over and over on Normal as quickly as possible, and wouldn't want any newbie slowing them down or (GASP) costing them the 10% no-deaths bonus.

If anything, BB makes such people more likely to let newbies in their groups at all...though the newbies might struggle to keep up, have no idea what's going on, learn little, and miss half the loot in the process. But they get easy XP.

Removing BB won't make people running the quest for the 100th time, who find it plenty easy on Elite, magically want to play much slower, on way-too-easy Normal difficulty.

The real grouping problem is much simpler: there's fewer people. And nerfing people's Elite XP isn't going to solve that.

[Vint]

I will disagree only to say that the "time" to abolish BB was years ago, not now.

BB was ill-conceived and not well thought out. There have been any number of discussions about much better alternatives to replace that xp.

:cool:

This is I can agree with. Turbine could have increased first time bonus no matter what difficulty so people would not feel left out by not having a streak.

As it is now, people are used to getting 500-700 tp (whatever the number) per life if they do a one and done. I think people would continue to run elite even if they got rid of BB just because of the tp.

[Duana]

The problem is not bravery bonus.

This.

The reasons I stopped pugging a lot had nothing to do with BB (and will not stop if it goes away).

Full Disclosure: Before you all start screaming "elitist prick" at me, I do not play well enough to be elitist. I am just a "run of the mill" prick.

I have reasons for playing the way I do. I am sure there will be all sorts of facts others can provide for why I should not play that way. Being a prick, even just a run of the mill prick, I will care not one single frack about those facts.

So let's skipp all that and hit the big one - 90% of the time when I pug I do not enjoy playing the game. Period.

Sometimes it is:

My fault - Happens regularly. I have no patience for other people sometimes. For whatever reason I do not want to be around them that day.

Their fault - Also happens regularly. They're stupid, they're young, they are their own form of pricks (call them anti-elitist pricks if you want). Whatever. Something about them makes it no fun to play.

No one's fault - Sometimes it just does not work. A month or so back, hit a group, and it was great. But the other 5 were on about soccer. I mean really going on, when not coordinating party tactics. I am not a soccer fan so I dropped group. The fact that I did not need a running commentary about soccer should not interfere with their game play.

They all can apply, at some point in time or another, when I am pugging.

I will not play the game in a manner I do not enjoy.

Grouping bonuses will not change that. How do I know? Because I will do what I do with group bonuses now. Multi-box. I have seen me do it.

Nothing Turbine can do will change that. If that causes the end of the game, so be it. I would rather play another 3-6 months or a year and have fun than force myself to pug and rage quit in 30 days.

If you all must have a silver lining to see - I pump enough money into the game that it is probably still worth keeping me around - pug views notwithstanding.

If not, and you believe I am blight on the game that must be eradicated - well I redirect you to the "prick not giving one single frack" comment above.

[sveiks2u]

[/quote][/list]
Cap the Stack at 5 - No matter how many are done after 5 simply leave it at 5.
Reset the Stack on TR and IR. The character is starting over, and part of the emotional value is brought on because it is sustained over multiple lives with people reaching very high numbers where the value of 5 is the same benefit but the loss of the high number can be emotionally devastating, where the loss of 5 most players wouldn't balk at.
[/list][/QUOTE]

/ signed any number ablove 5 only feeds the ego

[Duana]

signed any number ablove 5 only feeds the ego

This whole game feeds the ego. It is kind of the point.

[duntduntduuun]

saw something odd last night, 4 players without wings at all at the auctioneer in marketplace the game can attract new people it seem so why cant it keep them? why wont I ever see 4 wingless people in a level 25 or 30? I know when I started playing seeing only elite groups at all level ranges was mighty discouraging but I'm a old wow player and soloing from level 1 to 60 was kinda expected back in the day you grouped when you got into range of end game raids so thats what I did with this game. difference is in wow you did it once and got it over with pretty quick.

I can say from my own experience that this game only being partly free to play was really pushing me away hard (all the old obsolete packs the vets love to run like von and gh I was excluded from. buying obsolete content seemed like a terrible waste of my horded points, its not like theres any end game gear in their tho i eventually bought them when i found out that they are regularly run at high level for fun and epic TR'ing xp). then there was being required to buy epic destinies to play in epic levels I mean without them you are hopelessly behind. I took a like 6 months break due to that until my SO bought the expansions for me. but i have to say that soloing exclusively because their were only elite bravery bonus groups to join (I mean like ever) was super discouraging and probably its the main reason I went back to wow repeatedly and ended up taking like over a year to cap my first character and run my first raid. probably only did it that fast because of duoing.

but you guys keep arguing the theory what do I know, all I can say is an MMORPG doesn't feel much like one when you solo or even duo for weeks at a time, and this caused at least me to drop DDO repeatedly to go back to wow. it was definitely a hurdle.

[sithhound]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.

I gotta disagree. I like the one and done aspect of streaking. The whole reason I'm finally doing a completionist project is because I hate doing epic dailies. Did that for about a year, and decided I had to switch up or walk away. I tried 5 or 10 other games, but none of them had the depth of DDO, so I jumped on the TR train. About to start my 8th life, and so far, all 8 have been different. Sometimes I do reaver's, sometimes I don't. This life I did some wheloon. Last life I did all the madness chains. Haven't even bothered getting shroud flagged for the last two lives. As they say, variety is the spice of life, if had to go back to n,h,e, Idk what I'd do, maybe start watching tv? lol

You know, you could always become VIP, there are plenty of benefits for you there, and there is the added benefit of actually supporting the game we all love (or love to hate, for a few of us).

[Baktiotha]

why wont I ever see 4 wingless people in a level 25 or 30?

Ran two quests in the last 3 days with wingless people. First time was normal quest and I was only 1 w wings. Second time was heroic Shroud elite for player looking for shards and only 5 of the 11 players had wings.

In fairness, 1 of the wingless plays an alt with wings.

Not sure lack of wings indicates new player.

Next point is that many *newer* players have wings. They get to L20 or just a bit more and reincarnate.

Last point. I recommend to new players to use leveling stones, grab 2 fast lives to L20 and reincarnate, then play their first real life on a 34 point build. 1.8 million XP in first life, leveling stone is 2 million. Obvious. 2.7 million XP in second life, leveling stone plus 35% XP boost is 2.7 million. Easy peasy. Turbine should put Otto's Box on permanent sale in store.

Now play from L1 on and learn game. Get benefit of 2 past lives, 34 point builds, if smart eat tomes in 2d life so they auto apply in 3d life as you level up.

Want Turbine to make money so game stays open....

Just saying. :D

[KoobTheProud]

Bravery Bonus has very little to do with why grouping is broken.

Grouping is broken mainly because nobody groups to run a sprint unless they have no choice and everybody has choices these days.

I've played a lot of MMO's but DDO is the absolute worst in terms of the likely satisfaction gained from randomly grouping with somebody.

[Axeyu]

Why?

If DDO were some sort of self improvement program, or some sort of competition, that would make sense. But it's not, so Turbine really shouldn't be giving players reasons to play in a manner those players may not see as being the most entertaining. That's just counterproductive to being an entertainment service.

Reasons " to play in a manner those players may not see as being the most entertaining" is exactly what we had before bravery bonus; "NNNNNNHE".
It is ofcourse Turbines job to make sure that the the playstyles that are more engaging in the long term are incentiviced.
It's unreasonable to expect players to give up short term enjoyment in favor for long term enjoyment in a game when there are thousand of other games a few clicks away.
It's up to the developers to make sure that the path that people actually take is the path that makes them stick around for as long as possible, and that means playing engaging content.


To understand what I'm getting at just take the exp-stone dupers as an extreme example, people got all their PLs in to time at all and I'm sure it was fun and rewarding and that they were happy to move on to another game after that because they had noting left to do here. It did not hurt them at all, it only hurt Turbine and thus the game.

[cdemeritt]

Bravery Bonus has very little to do with why grouping is broken.

Grouping is broken mainly because nobody groups to run a sprint unless they have no choice and everybody has choices these days.

I've played a lot of MMO's but DDO is the absolute worst in terms of the likely satisfaction gained from randomly grouping with somebody.

When/Why I switched to mainly solo play, this was about 5 years ago:

"LFM: Elite Madstone Crater, first timers, need guide"

Madstone has been one of my favorites for years, I was on a geared out but at level cleric , with some tactics, I can drag a handful of under geared newbies through it. I had been soloing it often. Everyone is together, jump in the quest, I explain how you can clear the initial field for more XP or sneak past them... They all cheered to clear the field. So I explain we are going to have a very difficult time unless we draw them a few at a time, show them where to set up the CC and kill field, everyone agrees, and we start. Wizard Ignores instructions, runs into each group of mobs, drops firewalls and pulls everything back at the same time. *Ding *Ding *Ding *Ding *Ding, nothing I could do. Ok recall, restart, explain again we can't fight everything at once, we need to pull a couple at a time, really need CC "Here". Wizard runs into the first group, again drops firewall, gets one shotted...

Me: " Why did you do that, I said set up CC here"

Dead Wizard: "That was too far away, it wouldn't have done anything"

Me: "I said we would pull the mobs to the CC"

Dead Wizard :"DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY MY TOON"

Me: " I guess you didn't want a guide after all, Good Luck"

Recalled and went Anon...

Grouping is broken, because no one needs to group in more than a couple quests. And for the few decent experiences I've had grouping, I've had at least 2x the bad ones, and I'd rather not deal with it.

[unbongwah]

If you eliminated the Streak bonus today, you would still have people tomorrow who only run Elite for the Bravery Bonus. If you eliminated Bravery Bonus tomorrow, you would still have people the next day who only run Elite for the first-time XP bonus (remember, that's separate from BB). If you eliminated first-time XP bonuses on the third day, there would still be people who only run Elite for the extra Favor and better Saga rewards.

I agree DDO has serious issues with attracting and retaining new players. Tweaking XP bonuses is not the way to fix them, however.

[Forzah]

If you eliminated the Streak bonus today, you would still have people tomorrow who only run Elite for the Bravery Bonus. If you eliminated Bravery Bonus tomorrow, you would still have people the next day who only run Elite for the first-time XP bonus (remember, that's separate from BB). If you eliminated first-time XP bonuses on the third day, there would still be people who only run Elite for the extra Favor and better Saga rewards.

I agree DDO has serious issues with attracting and retaining new players. Tweaking XP bonuses is not the way to fix them, however.

The difference is now that you can play difficulties in whichever order you want. You also don't get penalized for not being able to open a quest on elite. Maybe it doesn't help much, but it does make the game more friendly.

[LightBear]

While I agree with the OP's negative, and probably unwanted, side effect of BB I do think that new players would not be able to get to Uber Uber Completionist without it.

[Coyopa]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.

And I think that first-lifers don't realize just how much experience it takes to level a multi-TR'd character back to 20th level. I don't use experience elixirs to speed it up for the same reasons I don't use Otto's stones:
1. Too expensive
2. I am not willing to spend money to not play the game.

Sure, there's more experience in the game than ever, especially with monster manuals, and it takes less experience than it used to. However, it still takes me three or four weeks to re-level from 1st to 20th given the time I have available to play. It takes even longer if I'm TR'ing that character with my friend. Also, even without bravery bonuses, I'd be running elite first for the 20% daily play-through bonus. If I'm forced to re-run content after that, then you can be certain I'll be zerging it - whether you first-lifers are in the party or not. I'm to the point now where I don't even give a **** about breaking things because it's not worth the time (unless I'm on a caster who can use something like Sonic Blast to nuke a bunch of them without effort).

[Cantor]

Epic Destinies killed grouping. Gave everyone self healing and punished you for playing alts. Before that everyone had multiple characters on different builds. My wife and I used to login see who was in guild and what level range and either swap to someone the right level or someone would swap to play with us. Now you are unlikely to be the same level as anyone because who has more than 1 or 2 characters if they play epics (leveling destinies sucks). And between the power creep/level spread in heroic levels and easy self healing/OPness in epics you can ran several quests faster than you can find someone. When I do group: I either join a group IP or I post one IP. Which is not really grouping... just soloing together.

[LightBear]

Epic Destinies killed grouping. Gave everyone self healing and punished you for playing alts. Before that everyone had multiple characters on different builds. My wife and I used to login see who was in guild and what level range and either swap to someone the right level or someone would swap to play with us. Now you are unlikely to be the same level as anyone because who has more than 1 or 2 characters if they play epics (leveling destinies sucks). And between the power creep/level spread in heroic levels and easy self healing/OPness in epics you can ran several quests faster than you can find someone. When I do group: I either join a group IP or I post one IP. Which is not really grouping... just soloing together.

I play it since day 1 and I love to PUG. A lot of peeps do play alts tho, they just don't care that much for destinies or playing on Elite.

[Cantor]

I'm to the point now where I don't even give a **** about breaking things because it's not worth the time (unless I'm on a caster who can use something like Sonic Blast to nuke a bunch of them without effort).

All optionals need to be worth the effort in xp/time or they will get done once by a player and never again. This further splits the grouping population.

We really need a full rescaling of xp in all quests based on reasonable completion times for each difficulty. If this was done the streak bonus wouldn't be needed and elite xp would be worth it on it's on merit. This kind of data shouldn't be that hard to get a hold of.

[Axeyu]

If there is anything that killed grouping it's scaling.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

With the amount of grind we already have I am NOT IN FAVOR of anything that reduces xp.

[azrael4h]

I'd say just remove the streak, and put the bravery xp in as a regular bonus. E.G. Run Elite first time, get the same extra XP as the current 5x streak. Run Hard, get the Hard 5x streak bonus. But with no streak to keep track of, or break.

You'll still have a number who run only elites, but at least there won't be a huge disincentive to running normal once in awhile.

[Renvar]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.

A first lifer who throws up an LFM and has someone join that says "I only play elite" should respond with "OK. Can you open elite for us, then? I'm first life so I can't". If you are already in quest, just recall out and reset.

On a first life character, if a multi-life TR joins and wants to open elite, then I'd be all for that. Nothing wrong with more XP and more challenge. You might not be able to pwn the content like the TR guy and might need to stick together and such, but you should be able to complete.

On a multi-life TR, if the party leader was stuck with norm before, but wants me to open elite, I'd be fine with that. If a multi-life TR is joining PuG LFM's then they are looking to enjoy the social aspect of the game. They probably aren't joining because they need help completing the quest.

[AbyssalMage]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.
I agree Bravery Bonus can become a deterrent to PUG'ing, removing it will not solve the problem. The developers placed "BB Suspenders" but they simply are not convenient for the majority of players (including me).

If I am already in a group, I will willingly lose BB just to stay in the group. That is because there are a few Heroic Adventures that it is fairly common that groups will run on Hard instead of Elite. Then again, I have not joined groups because it was being run on Normal which validates your point.

Not sure what a viable solution would be after all of this time. I have my opinion, but that is all it is.

[kemetka]

I would rather see a far more intelligent and integrally challenging level design for newer content than a retroactive change to an xp system that really isnt causing anyone harm - not speaking of monsters being tougher, but having dungeons / explorer areas with maps/environments that are challenging due to puzzles, traps, jump ledges etc.. and provide different ways to complete the quest, instead of having locked doors till all the mobs are dead - which is exasperatingly frustrating....

tl;dr It's not hurting anyone, noone is claiming that you have to run elite, or that you should run elite, and while some will claim that elite is hard/easy its up to the player to make that call and determine what they want with the system thats been provided, and as such more challenging content ( again open to opinion ) should have better rewards in terms of xp and loot.

[unbongwah]

The developers placed "BB Suspenders" but they simply are not convenient for the majority of players (including me).
The simplest solution here is to make suspending BB automatic every time you run a quest at a lower difficulty. It's ridiculous to make people run back to the Hall of Heroes or a guildship just to toggle a setting.

That won't solve the larger issues, but it's a simple fix for one of the most glaring problems, IMO.

[GoldyGopher]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.


I am a little late to the party, but I figure I will throw in my two CP worth anyways.

Those that know me, know that I have been against Bravery Bonus since the Day that the Devs first announced the concept on the BB. I expressed my displeasure on that day and talked about the consequences but I was shouted down loudly by virtually everyone.

What did I say then ...
Rewards the people who need the XP bonus the least.
Creates an easier path for VIP to level up a third life character than a ftp/premium player to level up a first life character. (Note second life character can now open quests on hard and third life characters can now open quests on elite regardless of VIP/Premium/F2P status)
Creates a further separation between the players that can and those that cannot complete quests on elite. (Elitism)

All of which became very true as far as I am concerned.
Players who were concerned with XP/Min and already out earned the XP of the general population of the game now earned XP even faster. The difference has become so pronounced that even long term casual players are now focusing on XP per minute.

If we look at two characters, a first life FTP/Premium vs Third Life Character, which character has to run more quests to reach cap? When we start looking at bonuses (pot/shrine/tome/trinket) a third life character using both streak and bravery bonus needs to complete roughly 66% of all quests on Elite to reach cap, while a first life character needs to complete just under 90% of all quests. Yes the numbers vary depending on which quests you choose but in practice the third life character on an elite streak needs to run a quarter fewer quests. That doesn't even take into account gear or experience which can make the quests easier to run OR the hand full of quests where you can earn more optional XP if you so choose because of more mobs on Elite.

You'd be hard pressed to convince me that BB has widen the gap between the haves and have nots.

You can argue whether it is the total bonus or the streak bonus or the bravery bonus or the combined bonuses or what not, the problem is simple it is easier to level a third life character to heroic cap than a first life character and that is wrong.

Add in the fact it is now possible to suspend the BB system when you want to run certain quests.

I want to add that I totally understand what Turbine was attempting to accomplish and I see what they tried to do, I just don't think the law of unattended consequences was totally thought through.

[walkin_dude]

I want to add that I totally understand what Turbine was attempting to accomplish and I see what they tried to do, I just don't think the law of unattended consequences was totally thought through.

NOOOO one expects the law of unintended consequences!!!

[Uska]

Epic Destinies killed grouping. Gave everyone self healing and punished you for playing alts. Before that everyone had multiple characters on different builds. My wife and I used to login see who was in guild and what level range and either swap to someone the right level or someone would swap to play with us. Now you are unlikely to be the same level as anyone because who has more than 1 or 2 characters if they play epics (leveling destinies sucks). And between the power creep/level spread in heroic levels and easy self healing/OPness in epics you can ran several quests faster than you can find someone. When I do group: I either join a group IP or I post one IP. Which is not really grouping... just soloing together.

ED's didn't do it they don't affect heroic its powercreep, overabundant self-healing, Monty Haul loot, and hirelings that killed grouping.

[GoldyGopher]

NOOOO one expects the law of unintended consequences!!!

From my perspective there was in this case there was no attempt to consider the complete ramifications of the proposed fix. It was a "quick and dirty fix". Other solutions were way too complicated and well the coding had already started.

Its kind of like the Dungeon Scaling discussion.

[virtualgib]

Bravery Bonus is not the problem, the problem is the Streak Bonus. The problem is that people have given a number above 5 emotional value and because of that actually fear losing it.
[/list]

Neither the BB or the streak bonus is the issue here. The TR train is the issue.

Most people on the TR train heading for completionist, are worried about 1 thing and 1 thing only. XP per minute. They want to run the quest 1 time and move on.

Now comes a new player, stepping into a given quest for the first time. No clue what's going on, deer in the headlights if you will. He starts looking at his hotbars to perhaps buff himself(if he has that much figured out yet) and while that's happening, the vets are off and running. He spends the rest of the quest trying to find the rest of the group(hopefully, they didn't invis run and leave a ton of angry mobs for him to "find"). By the time he gets to the end of the quest, IF he gets to the end, everyone else has finished out and moved on to the next quest.

Boy, wasn't that fun for a new player.

Sure, there are guilds that cater to flower sniffing, but they are few and far between.

Most lfms dont give details about what kind of run it's going to be beyond which quest it's for and byoh. Maybe, if more people who flower sniff actually put in the lfm, "flower sniffing" or something similar, new players would have an idea which lfm may be best for them.

If a first life toon joins your lfm, maybe ask if he's familiar with quest. If not, take a little time to show/explain things to him.

I think if we all took a little more time to help a new player, they might stick around a little longer, and the more people who stick around longer the longer the game will stick around.

Just my opinion for what it's worth.

[FranOhmsford]

Sure, there are guilds that cater to flower sniffing, but they are few and far between.

I Absolutely LOATHE this term!

Flower Sniffing - It's so derogatory!

And it does not describe the players it's used to describe - Even in your own post which I snipped this quote out of you use it to describe someone new who simply wanted to buff up before starting - THAT IS NOT FLOWER SNIFFING!

Then you go on to state "hopefully they didn't invis run" as though the newbie was a Flower Sniffer for not being able to do so {or maybe not even knowing it was a requirement!}.

Flower Sniffing as a term is basically used to put down ANYONE who can't or doesn't want to zerg full speed!


Some Quests I'll smash everything as I go, do all opts, even make sure I have a Rogue Hireling handy to get trap bonus if no trapper joins me - Chains of Flame, VoN3+4
Other Quests I won't even consider getting ransack or conquest or ingenious - WIZ KING! {Unless there's at least 3 trappers in party and then only Ingenious - no worrying about conquest or ransack}.
For some reason - Wiz King gives more xp without any of these than VoN 3 or Spies do with ALL OF THEM! {Well ok Conquest and Ransack I believe are impossible in Spies but I get Vandal every time.}.

I don't consider getting ransack or doing the Opts in Ringleader to be Flower Sniffing either - I'm not smelling the flowers, I'm moving along at a fast pace!
It might take me a minute or two longer to do the quest but I'm only doing it once NOT REPEATING IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN!
Actually these days I usually do jump the crates in Ringleader but for the first 18 months to 3 years from 2010 onwards I generally did the entire quest!

When running Stealthy Repo I switch on Expeditious Retreat and RUN {If people are in group with me I tell them to wait at start till I get the gem and THEN Kill EVERYTHING!}.

If I'm running EE OoB {or even EH} and not on a character capable of soloing a room it doesn't matter if I'm a trapper or not I'm NOT opening those doors SOLO while everyone else zergs ahead!
In fact as Leader of OoB Groups I try my best to make sure I'm the one with the bowl so that no Zerger can finish the d@mn quest before all opts are done! AND I ask for people to do side rooms and don't expect them to do so SOLO!

And an even more Zergy Quest - Prey on the Hunter - I still get lost in there because every single time I've run it it's been a race to keep up with the one person who knows the way!
Because the quest itself not only rewards Zerging but virtually requires it!



To anyone saying Zerger is also derogatory - It's general meaning is anything BUT!
It's used as a means of picking out the wheat from the chaff - being capable of Zerging is seen as a good thing in MMOs!
Flower Sniffing on the other hand is definitely and clearly a derogatory term with no upside!

[Chai]

Eliminate bravery bonus.

Make 10% per group member bonus XP permanent.

Two birds, one cup, erm I mean stone, yeah that's it stone. Two birds, one stone. pheeew.

[SirValentine]

If there is anything that killed grouping it's scaling.

Beside the population issues, this could well be the next biggest thing.

It's quite possible, due to scaling, for several people each to be able to solo a quest, but to fail if they try to work together on it.

[Hafeal]

Eliminate bravery bonus.

Make 10% per group member bonus XP permanent.

Two birds, one cup, erm I mean stone, yeah that's it stone. Two birds, one stone. pheeew.

The original XP boost should have been this instead of BB Bonus and the "BB Streak" as the "Weekend Bonus." but there were those loud complaints - e.g., like the "advantage" people dual boxing could get.


Bottom line - XP per party member rewards ALL difficulties no matter what your lfm says.

BB Bonus rewards ONLY Elite.


There has been developer indfference or denial on this from Day 1.

I just am not sure it is "worth" fixing now. I guess better late than never.

[bracelet]

The simplest solution here is to make suspending BB automatic every time you run a quest at a lower difficulty.

This is also known as "eliminate the streak". And I am not disagreeing with you in any way. Let's face it, there is nothing brave about a 3rd or 50th lifer running HE. Streak is just a number at this point, we *never* run anything less than HE on the first pass because if we do we lose 50% xp and have to start rebuilding the streak from scratch.

The bravery marshall, a misguided effort to fix this, was an utter waste of coding effort. The only time I ever see it used is if someone wants to run a very high level raid or quest on something other than elite. It has zero impact on heroics where it was supposed to help.

The first step to ending the madness is to just give everyone max streak and leave it that way. Simple as that. That way we can at least make a judgement call if we want to go help a newb with his quest on normal. I am not saying we will -it will still cost us a bucket load of xp. But at least the whole streak calculation would be removed from consideration.

The next step to ending the madness might be to give us an offset to helping the newb in his normal run. This is the sticky bit, because in addition to losing the 50% bravery bonus, we are also going to miss out on the fixed first time elite bonus (80%), not to mention the favor. This means that we will have to come back and run it again on elite to take advantage of those things.

Basically ending streak won't fix much. But it's a first, timid step in the right direction. The next steps might be more painful for the designers: XP for first time normal and hard need to be brought closer in line with elite (this was very much the case in the old days), and favor needs to be a single value regardless of difficulty. I personally don't see any of this happening. But I do think eliminating streak, and the bravery marshall, is something that could be stomached.

[RoberttheBard]

I am a little late to the party, but I figure I will throw in my two CP worth anyways.

Those that know me, know that I have been against Bravery Bonus since the Day that the Devs first announced the concept on the BB. I expressed my displeasure on that day and talked about the consequences but I was shouted down loudly by virtually everyone.

What did I say then ...
Rewards the people who need the XP bonus the least.
Creates an easier path for VIP to level up a third life character than a ftp/premium player to level up a first life character. (Note second life character can now open quests on hard and third life characters can now open quests on elite regardless of VIP/Premium/F2P status)
Creates a further separation between the players that can and those that cannot complete quests on elite. (Elitism)

All of which became very true as far as I am concerned.

Except that it didn't? On a 3rd life toon, I require twice the xp to level compared to a first life toon. How is that in any way, shape or form "needing the xp bonus the least"? In fact, I would say that it's quite the opposite.


Players who were concerned with XP/Min and already out earned the XP of the general population of the game now earned XP even faster. The difference has become so pronounced that even long term casual players are now focusing on XP per minute.

Citations needed. None of the Casual players in my guild are all that concerned about xp/min. They do love that Favor though, and BB has absolutely nothing to do with Favor.


If we look at two characters, a first life FTP/Premium vs Third Life Character, which character has to run more quests to reach cap? When we start looking at bonuses (pot/shrine/tome/trinket) a third life character using both streak and bravery bonus needs to complete roughly 66% of all quests on Elite to reach cap, while a first life character needs to complete just under 90% of all quests. Yes the numbers vary depending on which quests you choose but in practice the third life character on an elite streak needs to run a quarter fewer quests. That doesn't even take into account gear or experience which can make the quests easier to run OR the hand full of quests where you can earn more optional XP if you so choose because of more mobs on Elite.

Just no. All things being equal, your numbers are backwards here. If both characters are running the same items/streak, a first lifer needs exactly half the xp to get to 20 as a 3rd lifer. Since I have first life toons that can, and have maintained streaks to 20, it's not impossible, or even improbable, that someone else can as well. In fact, if they're grouping, which they'll have to be to be running on Elite for a streak anyway, it's going to be easier for them than for me, since I solo about 90% of the time. I get that we have to ignore these possibilities, because you need us to in order to believe your stated position, but the reality isn't close to what you would have me believe, at least, not in my experience. Can we find examples of what you claim the status quo is? I'm sure we could. However, I'm also sure we could find lots of characters leveling up every day that don't fit into this "dilemma".


You'd be hard pressed to convince me that BB has widen the gap between the haves and have nots.

You can argue whether it is the total bonus or the streak bonus or the bravery bonus or the combined bonuses or what not, the problem is simple it is easier to level a third life character to heroic cap than a first life character and that is wrong.

Actually, it makes perfect sense, to me: On my third life, I know the quests. An advantage that a new player doesn't have. How is player knowledge not going to make the leveling easier, even if it doesn't make it faster, like you claim?


Add in the fact it is now possible to suspend the BB system when you want to run certain quests.

I want to add that I totally understand what Turbine was attempting to accomplish and I see what they tried to do, I just don't think the law of unattended consequences was totally thought through.

...and it doesn't really apply. There were elitists before BB, and there are elitists now? What changed?

[virtualgib]

snip

Oh, I'm sorry, were you triggered? Maybe we can find you a safe space to hide in.

Nothing I said was meant to be derogatory to anyone, in any way. I was just using common terms to describe different play styles. Depending on my mood, I'll either ZERG or FLOWER SNIFF. I was making a valid point and there was no reason for you to turn all drama queen based on anything I said in my previous post.

I'll leave it at that.

[Iwant_DiabloThree]

Sounds to me like some people dont think that being ViP should have any advantage over being F2P.

I am sorry you cant open quests on elite your first time thru......I am sorry you cant seem to come up with $2.50 a week to enjoy a really fun game and enjoy the benefits of being ViP. I am sorry that I get more XP than the F2P guys.

My toon is not overpowered because I am P2P...... After I caught on to the games.... I decided that the first thing I needed to do was past lives.. LOTS of them. So I spent over a year building my toon, life after life..... TR after TR... hearts of wood to correct mistakes.. then after I built him the way I wanted... that is when I started to play "the game".

Every single one of us..... no matter how uber we are now......... at one time was the gimpyest player on the server

[Holleyz]

It's NOT the bravery bonus that is killing grouping, I just logged into a first life character I have on Orien to run with a static group and after they had all logged off I kept playing. I put up a few lfg's Got a few takers then when they realized I was running quests at level on normal they dropped the party, They was TR characters. So this is what I realized--->It is NOT the bravery bonus its the XP NEEDED by Reincarnated characters that is killing the grouping. TR'd characters who doesn't have an XP pot going has to run ELITE in order to get the xp they need to level. I know I do the same thing when I am on my multi life character on Cannith.

[Forzah]

It's NOT the bravery bonus that is killing grouping, I just logged into a first life character I have on Orien to run with a static group and after they had all logged off I kept playing. I put up a few lfg's Got a few takers then when they realized I was running quests at level on normal they dropped the party, They was TR characters. So this is what I realized--->It is NOT the bravery bonus its the XP NEEDED by Reincarnated characters that is killing the grouping. TR'd characters who doesn't have an XP pot going has to run ELITE in order to get the xp they need to level. I know I do the same thing when I am on my multi life character on Cannith.

Of course there are multiple reasons why people do not group. Bravery bonus is one of them, and it is by far the easiest one to fix.

[Ykt]

I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite"

I've been playing almost exclusively in heroic levels for the past 8 months (acquired about 10 past lives) and I very rarely see LFMs for non-elite quests.

[Holleyz]

Of course there are multiple reasons why people do not group. Bravery bonus is one of them, and it is by far the easiest one to fix.

Not really, each quest should only have one difficulty setting, One set amount of XP. This would FORCE grouping for those who cannot solo it. And for the ones that CAN solo it they should be rewarded with good Loot.

[Eth]

The original XP boost should have been this instead of BB Bonus and the "BB Streak" as the "Weekend Bonus." but there were those loud complaints - e.g., like the "advantage" people dual boxing could get.

Sounds like a good deal for turbine. More people multi boxing would bring in quite some cash.

[Robbenklopper]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.

Nonsense, why should it be impossible for a new first lifer to run a PUG on normal? Thing is: how many new first lifer are out there at all, which happened in the same Level Range just like yourself running a special quest? Most new first lifers run the quests first time alone, with a friend or Hire what i call "The tutorial campaign". They only want the game to get to know and explore the maps, because hardly anyone runs around in PUGs on normal and solos. Because it´s so easy and so less xp for a vet. On Normal difficulty there is so much XP that you easily get away with it till you made it to 20. The game is so simple that one can also die hard. Although First lifers can not normally open up on elite, nothing prevents them to join in on elite. If they can not keep up and get broken, they just don´t belong there and haven´t lost anything in this diff. That the vast majority of People only runs on elite and squinting greedy to braverybonus is PRIMARILY because they can not wait to get back to as soon as possible for the next TR. Can I Play mommy diff was years ago on a diff game. On the other hand one as a 3rd + lifer Needs so much more xp that iit´s a senseless toil to run it not on elite.

[Yltrem]

As many have already said, BB is not the true issue here.
I do not see any problem that players are rewarded with more experience for playing harder difficulty more than one quest.

One of the problems is lack of players and the age of the game.

Let's face it, this game is old. It means that there are lot of players who are and have been playing more than year or two. They also have done all of the content more than few times, it is no suprise that they want to rush foward and running on Elite is best to them.

Anyother problem is how could we and Turbine make it easier to new players to get in the game? DDO, at least by my point of view, has huge learning curve.
For example, the whole Bonus and Gear stacking is just very annoying to keep track on. There could be some sort of interface where you could see what stacks and what does not in your current set up.

Gaining more Experience and running higher difficulty is not a bad thing as many have said. Pushing it too much is and the lack of encouraging enviroment to help others makes these Elite Rush groups annoying. Also the fact that higher you go, more of them you face.

Also one thing that most newer players lack in this game is knowledge, the most powerful tool for us. And they are unable to gain it whitout running quests. But for them it's almost better to solo things on Normal first as everyone are almost asuming that people know how to run content.

BB is not an issue here, it is so much bigger. And it's multiple thing, not just one aspect of the game.

But this is just my point of view and that alone does not make anything true or false =D

Happy adventuring to all of you!!

-Yours Yltrem

[Forzah]

Not really, each quest should only have one difficulty setting, One set amount of XP. This would FORCE grouping for those who cannot solo it. And for the ones that CAN solo it they should be rewarded with good Loot.

This is simply not gonna happen. Changing BB is much simpler to implement and may lead to extra grouping, even if it isn't much.

[Holleyz]

This is simply not gonna happen. Changing BB is much simpler to implement and may lead to extra grouping, even if it isn't much.

Even if they do away with the bravery bonus this still wouldn't cause people to group together because Elite pays out more xp than normal so people is still going to run Elite regardless if there is a BB or not. Besides that didn't they just install a bravery bonus marshal on the airships so people could "pause" the bravery bonus? That did alot of good didn't it. No the only way is to have 1 difficulty setting for each quest. 1 Amount of XP per quest. Only the loot changes if ran with a group or soloed.

[Qhualor]

I think BB in heroics should be changed to running quests at base level for max BB xp. I don't think there is anything "brave" running quests 2 levels above base anymore with how much more powerful characters can be today. For example, max BB running a level 10 quest at level 10 on elite. A little less xp running same quest at level 11 and a little less than that at level 12.

I also think epic BB level range should be reduced 2 levels on elite.

[Enoach]

I think BB in heroics should be changed to running quests at base level for max BB xp. I don't think there is anything "brave" running quests 2 levels above base anymore with how much more powerful characters can be today. For example, max BB running a level 10 quest at level 10 on elite. A little less xp running same quest at level 11 and a little less than that at level 12.

I also think epic BB level range should be reduced 2 levels on elite.

This sounds good to me. I personally like the Under Level Bonus we lost when the Bravery Bonus, First Time and Streak bonus was added to the game.

[Forzah]

I think BB in heroics should be changed to running quests at base level for max BB xp. I don't think there is anything "brave" running quests 2 levels above base anymore with how much more powerful characters can be today. For example, max BB running a level 10 quest at level 10 on elite. A little less xp running same quest at level 11 and a little less than that at level 12.

I also think epic BB level range should be reduced 2 levels on elite.

It would be rather detrimental to grouping to make the range of eligible players for a quest even smaller than it is now.

[Edwardt]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.

I'm pretty sure abolishing the BB will cause the exact opposite of what you want to happen.

Those who run with their streak have a reason for doing so and maybe it's just about the number which feeds their ego. Although I guess that it the minority.
It's more about the time. A multi pastlife character needs more xp and therefore it takes more time to reach level 20.
Grouping up with heterogeneous experienced people takes more time than soloing it, or running with people who got the same quest-knowledge.
Now what do you think those player would do, if the barvery bonus would be shut off?
Well, now they need at least 50% more time to reach their goal, it will become much more unlikely for them to group up with unexperienced people who would consume even more time.

Those who like to play in groups and don't care about time and xp, those who like to show people around don't care much about their streak in the first place, or just find the time to pause it.
Setting up some more NPCs to toggle the BB might help, but you will not change the attitude of the once I mentioned before.

I remember a time a few years ago some folks told me: 'you best die here, we carry your stone and rezz you at the end.' It felt not so good and I don't want that to be standard on a 'xp train'.

[unbongwah]

I think BB in heroics should be changed to running quests at base level for max BB xp. I don't think there is anything "brave" running quests 2 levels above base anymore with how much more powerful characters can be today. For example, max BB running a level 10 quest at level 10 on elite. A little less xp running same quest at level 11 and a little less than that at level 12.

I also think epic BB level range should be reduced 2 levels on elite.
"I don't think BB discourages newbies enough, so let's make it even harder for them to PUG Elite quests!" :rolleyes:

It would be rather detrimental to grouping to make the range of eligible players for a quest even smaller than it is now.
That too.

[LongshotBro]

It's NOT the bravery bonus that is killing grouping, I just logged into a first life character I have on Orien to run with a static group and after they had all logged off I kept playing. I put up a few lfg's Got a few takers then when they realized I was running quests at level on normal they dropped the party, They was TR characters. So this is what I realized--->It is NOT the bravery bonus its the XP NEEDED by Reincarnated characters that is killing the grouping. TR'd characters who doesn't have an XP pot going has to run ELITE in order to get the xp they need to level. I know I do the same thing when I am on my multi life character on Cannith.

This is my problem with the situation, and i admittedly am in a minority but, the perspective that the elite BB xp is "NEEDED...in order to get the xp they need to level."

XP is needed, that is true, but the source of it is irrelevant. After 10 years playing this game, i still fail to understand the rush. Not the rush as in thrill, but as regards desperate desire to speedily ascend through the levels as fast as mathematically possible.

But, i realize that's just me and my level of enjoyment is different than others. So it's difficult for me to understand the issue from their point of view. I just play quests at whatever level i feel comfortable at any given time/character/build/particular quest. It's neat to have a streak going for a while, and a bonus is always nice. But i won't give a second thought to breaking either and hence, whether BB existed or not does not impact my level of fun to be had.

[axel15810]

The only solution I can see that would make everyone happy is to get rid of the streak requirements completely. Instead, take the streak bonus and rename it to "1st time bonus" or something along those lines and apply it to the 1st run of both hard and elite for everyone no matter what. It's an XP creep, yes, but most players seem to be streaking already and are getting a lot of that bonus XP anyways. And that change would eliminate players feeling penalized if they run anything that isn't elite.

The bravery bonus idea was good in theory, but in the end the concept was flawed because the reward was too good that it effectively became a requirement and not a bonus. You can call it a bonus if you want, but it really isn't thought of that way by the player base due to how good it is. It's effectively just a penalty to running lower difficulties, which is a real shame. I wouldn't mind it being retired as a concept.

[Coyopa]

Really, the easiest thing is to drop bravery rewards altogether and reduce the experience required to level for 3rd life and later to be the same for 2nd life.

[Qhualor]

It would be rather detrimental to grouping to make the range of eligible players for a quest even smaller than it is now.

I don't see it that way. In epics I see most lfms that are EN dailies or sometimes EH. The next most I see are BB level ranges. After you have run the quest once for BB it doesn't matter anymore what level range it is. In many cases players have already run heroic versions of epic quests and some will save the good quests like Mirror and What Goes Up for epic BB.

In heroics, a level 10 running a level 10 quest on elite for max xp might be a little more challenged thus increasing the incentive for grouping.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

Effing with bravery bonus will DO ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD. In fact, it will probably cause harm if you nerf the xp.

It won't help new players. It won't help grouping. It will just **** off players who want more xp.

END OF STORY.

[Qhualor]

"I don't think BB discourages newbies enough, so let's make it even harder for them to PUG Elite quests!" :rolleyes:

I firmly believe new players shouldn't be playing elites until they are better prepared and better skilled for the highest difficulty. The other 2 difficulty settings are perfect for new players to learn the game and it's not like they need the extra xp considering they would be skipping a lot of content anyways getting to 20.

[Tscheuss]

Agreed. First life characters have no need of Hard or Elite. They are purely optional. :)

[Duana]

The only solution I can see that would make everyone happy is to get rid of the streak requirements completely. Instead, take the streak bonus and rename it to "1st time bonus" or something along those lines and apply it to the 1st run of both hard and elite for everyone no matter what. It's an XP creep, yes, but most players seem to be streaking already and are getting a lot of that bonus XP anyways. And that change would eliminate players feeling penalized if they run anything that isn't elite.

There are already first time bonuses for completing a quest and again for completing each difficulty.

If you already knew this and were trolling, you winned - 2 internetz to you.



The bravery bonus idea was good in theory, but in the end the concept was flawed because the reward was too good that it effectively became a requirement and not a bonus. You can call it a bonus if you want, but it really isn't thought of that way by the player base due to how good it is. It's effectively just a penalty to running lower difficulties, which is a real shame. I wouldn't mind it being retired as a concept.


Once you have run them a certain number of times, it is not about the xp. Just running them on the lower difficulties is the penalty.

[bracelet]

Really, the easiest thing is to drop bravery rewards altogether and reduce the experience required to level for 3rd life and later to be the same for 2nd life.

This is a good idea. It would have to be carefully worked to be XP neutral. It doesn't fix the favor problem, but it does address both the streak problem and the other huge problem which is the enormous disparity between the XP earned using BB and streak vs just running a normal run.

It would cause much outrage amongst those who could not see that it does not change outcomes for 3rd life or higher. It will genuinely affect those that can open elite on a first life toon though -they will need to run much more content to level that first life since the massive elite bonuses will be removed. It's a minor problem though -it mainly affects VIP. Maybe they could up the VIP bonus to 20 to compensate.

This is one of the best suggestions so far.

[Forzah]

I don't see it that way. In epics I see most lfms that are EN dailies or sometimes EH. The next most I see are BB level ranges. After you have run the quest once for BB it doesn't matter anymore what level range it is. In many cases players have already run heroic versions of epic quests and some will save the good quests like Mirror and What Goes Up for epic BB.

In heroics, a level 10 running a level 10 quest on elite for max xp might be a little more challenged thus increasing the incentive for grouping.

If you cut the range in half, the number of eligible players for a quest also roughly cuts in half. I don't believe the grouping incentive from increased challenge can make up for a loss of half the eligible players; that would be very strange.

Instead, I'd make the range wider (as it was before bravery bonus). I'd change the first time bonusses into a first time bonus that resets every several days. Then you can join any LFM that you see and you will get full xp if you haven't played the quest too recently. This gives much more freedom, since you are no longer restricted to a certain leveling path.

[Ghoulstorm]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.

I've been playing since update 12 or 13 and have never once had anyone drop from a group because we were running elite. Calling Shenanigans on that one. I do, however, see lots of LFMs looking for an elite opener. Removing the BB without replacing the extra xp it provides would likely be the death knell for heroics entirely and I simply don't trust the folks in charge to come up with something equitable to replace it with. The level of grind in the game is already too high and I don't think what's left of the games population can stand much more. I certainly can't.

[Coyopa]

This is a good idea. It would have to be carefully worked to be XP neutral. It doesn't fix the favor problem, but it does address both the streak problem and the other huge problem which is the enormous disparity between the XP earned using BB and streak vs just running a normal run.

It would cause much outrage amongst those who could not see that it does not change outcomes for 3rd life or higher. It will genuinely affect those that can open elite on a first life toon though -they will need to run much more content to level that first life since the massive elite bonuses will be removed. It's a minor problem though -it mainly affects VIP. Maybe they could up the VIP bonus to 20 to compensate.

This is one of the best suggestions so far.

Thanks. People keep coming up with these neat ideas (some good, some not as good) and the one thing they all have in common is that they're complicated. Since the best solutions tend to be the simplest ones, I thought 'why not'. Personally, I'm not sure they need to increase the VIP bonus at all in such a scenario. As for the 1st life toons that can open elite, while they'll need to run more content than they currently do, I don't see this as a problem. The last time I leveled a first life character with an elite streak to 20, I was skipping all kinds of quests - including quests that I genuinely enjoy and just didn't get to run because I was raking in so much experience. Some of them I decided to run while above the level for them because I liked them enough and they had no epic counterparts. Finally, if people are upset about the loss of bravery bonus (even with experience being reduced), they can use an experience potion. Maybe it would translate into more sales of experience elixirs for Turbine. Personally, I've got a pretty good stash of them going just from Daily Dice rolls (granted, they're not the Sovereign Elixirs...).

[Coyopa]

I've been playing since update 12 or 13 and have never once had anyone drop from a group because we were running elite. Calling Shenanigans on that one. I do, however, see lots of LFMs looking for an elite opener. Removing the BB without replacing the extra xp it provides would likely be the death knell for heroics entirely and I simply don't trust the folks in charge to come up with something equitable to replace it with. The level of grind in the game is already too high and I don't think what's left of the games population can stand much more. I certainly can't.

I've been playing since Sept 2010 (not sure what update that is and I'm too lazy to go look it up; so, I'll leave that to you if it's important to ya) and I have had only a couple or three people drop because I was running quests on elite. However, they were specifically interested in running quests multiple times because they were newer to the game. I grouped with them while they were running quests I'd already run because I wanted to help them out and they were running quests I enjoyed. Once we got to quests that I hadn't run, I bid them goodbye and went back to running quests on elite first. So, it does happen, but in my experience it's vanishingly rare. Both the players that I can think of that made this choice were in the last 3 months.

[Saekee]

the first problem for grouping is dungeon scaling. http://m.ddowiki.com/page/Dungeon_Scaling

Instead, Scaling should be static; go alone if you want but more peeps are helpful.
XP incentives for grouping: simply create a number of fun group-oriented bonuses that award people teamwork. Healing others, carrying soul stones, rezzing, debuffing bosses etc are all team oriented. They are easily abused but then people get xp just for breaking boxes.

[Strider1963]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.

The problem is, if you already have 2 past lives, you pretty much have to play on elite (at least as long as you're able to) in order to get to heroic cap. .I cant imagine trying to level to level 20 doing quests on normal as a 36 point build. 3.8 mil xp would take forever, thus people do elites in heroic.

[Kylstrem]

...I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal,

I think many of you, including the OP, are seeing a cause and effect that is not there.

This response of "I only play elite" is not due entirely to the streak/BB bonus. Even if there were not a BB/Elite streak bonus, I personally would never run a quest on Normal or Hard in Heroics. Throwing XP bonuses out the window, it is just a waste of time for me at this point. I've been playing for 10 years. If i'm doing heroic content it is because I'm leveling up TR or trying to get through heroic back to epic. and it doesn't have to be a 10 year vet... even 2 years vets are likely tired of heroic content.

I would want the max favor (for TP and for whatever you get for it for that faction) and I would not want to spend extra time running on normal.

And Normal/Hard difficulty is an absolute joke these days for anything but the most gimp build or newest person to the game playing... and I would venture to say that Normal isn't even challenging for either of those categories. There is absolutely NO reason to play normal these days unless maybe is is the third run for XP in a E/H/N of Kobold's New Ringleader which takes about 2 minutes to do.

The OP's complaint is not going to be solved by getting rid of the BB/Streak.


to digress a little, Enoach is right. Turbine needs to stop the Streak counter at 5. This just creates psychological barrier to someone breaking their streak. "Oh I have a 2000 Elite streak... I can't break that for any reason." Cap it at 5 and leave it there. Someone suggested this creates incentive for doing harder content, but it doesn't... it just disincentives them to do a quest with friends or PUG because someone might make their 2000+ number go down 0 again, and there's no benefit to having a number greater than 5, other than the psychological barrier of breaking it.

I'd almost go so far as to say that once someone hits 5, let them keep that streak even if they would do something that currently breaks it. don't go make them turn them it off as no one has time for that when joining a PUG. Let them do the quest that would break it, then when they do another quest that would be part of the streak just keep it at the "5" bonus. It's not that big of a deal anymore to have someone "Chicken out" for a quest.

[Uska]

I think many of you, including the OP, are seeing a cause and effect that is not there.

This response of "I only play elite" is not due entirely to the streak/BB bonus. Even if there were not a BB/Elite streak bonus, I personally would never run a quest on Normal or Hard in Heroics. Throwing XP bonuses out the window, it is just a waste of time for me at this point. I've been playing for 10 years. If i'm doing heroic content it is because I'm leveling up TR or trying to get through heroic back to epic. and it doesn't have to be a 10 year vet... even 2 years vets are likely tired of heroic content.

I would want the max favor (for TP and for whatever you get for it for that faction) and I would not want to spend extra time running on normal.

And Normal/Hard difficulty is an absolute joke these days for anything but the most gimp build or newest person to the game playing... and I would venture to say that Normal isn't even challenging for either of those categories. There is absolutely NO reason to play normal these days unless maybe is is the third run for XP in a E/H/N of Kobold's New Ringleader which takes about 2 minutes to do.

The OP's complaint is not going to be solved by getting rid of the BB/Streak.


to digress a little, Enoach is right. Turbine needs to stop the Streak counter at 5. This just creates psychological barrier to someone breaking their streak. "Oh I have a 2000 Elite streak... I can't break that for any reason." Cap it at 5 and leave it there. Someone suggested this creates incentive for doing harder content, but it doesn't... it just disincentives them to do a quest with friends or PUG because someone might make their 2000+ number go down 0 again, and there's no benefit to having a number greater than 5, other than the psychological barrier of breaking it.

I'd almost go so far as to say that once someone hits 5, let them keep that streak even if they would do something that currently breaks it. don't go make them turn them it off as no one has time for that when joining a PUG. Let them do the quest that would break it, then when they do another quest that would be part of the streak just keep it at the "5" bonus. It's not that big of a deal anymore to have someone "Chicken out" for a quest.

Streak should cap at 5 and if you do one quest against it your streak should go down by 1 so your streak might be going up and down but you would have to do 5 quests against it to lose it altogether.

[Qhualor]

If you cut the range in half, the number of eligible players for a quest also roughly cuts in half. I don't believe the grouping incentive from increased challenge can make up for a loss of half the eligible players; that would be very strange.

Instead, I'd make the range wider (as it was before bravery bonus). I'd change the first time bonusses into a first time bonus that resets every several days. Then you can join any LFM that you see and you will get full xp if you haven't played the quest too recently. This gives much more freedom, since you are no longer restricted to a certain leveling path.

I think you misunderstand. A level 12 running a level 10 quest on elite with level 10s would still get BB, just a little less than the others in the group. The level 10s would get max.

[Kylstrem]

Streak should cap at 5 and if you do one quest against it your streak should go down by 1 so your streak might be going up and down but you would have to do 5 quests against it to lose it altogether.



I can agree with that. good compromise!

[Hafeal]

Oops post, wrong quote selected.

[Hafeal]

Sounds like a good deal for turbine. More people multi boxing would bring in quite some cash.

I could not agree more, if someone wants to dual box, bless them.

;)

[Uska]

I could not agree more, if someone wants to dual box, bless them.

;)

Seriously doubt if it would have that effect the people would like only make new accounts and run the free quests for the bonus exp and then make new accounts and do it again and again.

[Holleyz]

Really, the easiest thing is to drop bravery rewards altogether and reduce the experience required to level for 3rd life and later to be the same for 2nd life.

Yes this is what I was trying to say but in more words. If my legend character only needed the amount of xp that a Hero needs to level then Yes I would consider dropping from elite down to hard so I could run with newer players.
Lets face it there are some classes that some of us dont like for whatever reasons, we each have our favorite and no so favorite classes and when your in one of those not so favorite classes trying to reach 20 so you can move on to the next life/class then yeah your going to run only elite because of the xp

[Uska]

Yes this is what I was trying to say but in more words. If my legend character only needed the amount of xp that a Hero needs to level then Yes I would consider dropping from elite down to hard so I could run with newer players.
Lets face it there are some classes that some of us dont like for whatever reasons, we each have our favorite and no so favorite classes and when your in one of those not so favorite classes trying to reach 20 so you can move on to the next life/class then yeah your going to run only elite because of the xp

Interesting you are from Transylvania Beach, KY and my wife is from Transylvania, Romania

[Enderoc]

BB should be done away with, but dungeon scaling to party size and level should increase along with XP and loot bonuses with a cap at two levels above elite for both challenge and reward while lowering both for any party with members higher level than that.

Meaning, the size of the party increases the challenge, xp, and raises the loot table. But Bravery streaks should be totally nullified....we can turn them off and on anyway.

[Gremmlynn]

It's NOT the bravery bonus that is killing grouping, I just logged into a first life character I have on Orien to run with a static group and after they had all logged off I kept playing. I put up a few lfg's Got a few takers then when they realized I was running quests at level on normal they dropped the party, They was TR characters. So this is what I realized--->It is NOT the bravery bonus its the XP NEEDED by Reincarnated characters that is killing the grouping. TR'd characters who doesn't have an XP pot going has to run ELITE in order to get the xp they need to level. I know I do the same thing when I am on my multi life character on Cannith.Except there is no "in order to get the xp they need to level" factor in the entire game. That went away with the change to xp ransack, we now all have unlimited xp available.

It is BB because it gives more xp and the general consensus among humans is that more is better than not more and it's a lot more.

[Silverleafeon]

/not signed



Before BB, people would run quests 11 times on normal and then move on to the next quest. It was extremely boring. People complained about it all the time. People hating TRing.

It is way more common to see multi TRs these days, because you just need to do quests once on elite to get enough XP to cap.
+1 this

By the way, newcomers got tons more bored doing the same quest 11x on normal, they usually would drop after the 3rd run every time.

[Gremmlynn]

Not really, each quest should only have one difficulty setting, One set amount of XP. This would FORCE grouping for those who cannot solo it. And for the ones that CAN solo it they should be rewarded with good Loot.Except you can't force people to group without being able to force them to play at all. That's the dilemma for this sort of thing for Turbine. Is it a good idea to have people have to choose whether or not to remain customers?

Or more to point, is it worthwhile to spend time and/or money on a game one may or may not be able to play at any given time based on the whim of other players? As it's Turbine we are paying, it seems is their responsibility to see we can play their game regardless of other players. As the game is set up as it is, it seems they agree.

[Gremmlynn]

I'm pretty sure abolishing the BB will cause the exact opposite of what you want to happen.

Those who run with their streak have a reason for doing so and maybe it's just about the number which feeds their ego. Although I guess that it the minority.
It's more about the time. A multi pastlife character needs more xp and therefore it takes more time to reach level 20.
Grouping up with heterogeneous experienced people takes more time than soloing it, or running with people who got the same quest-knowledge.
Now what do you think those player would do, if the barvery bonus would be shut off?
Well, now they need at least 50% more time to reach their goal, it will become much more unlikely for them to group up with unexperienced people who would consume even more time.

Those who like to play in groups and don't care about time and xp, those who like to show people around don't care much about their streak in the first place, or just find the time to pause it.
Setting up some more NPCs to toggle the BB might help, but you will not change the attitude of the once I mentioned before.

I remember a time a few years ago some folks told me: 'you best die here, we carry your stone and rezz you at the end.' It felt not so good and I don't want that to be standard on a 'xp train'.A. Remove BB.
B. Remove the extra xp needed.
c. Problem solved.

How much xp is given or needed is completely at the discretion of whomever sets those values and completely based on how much (game) time they want progress to take. If those values as set are getting in the way of the game. there is nothing preventing them from resetting them to any values they feel would be better.

[Gremmlynn]

I firmly believe new players shouldn't be playing elites until they are better prepared and better skilled for the highest difficulty. The other 2 difficulty settings are perfect for new players to learn the game and it's not like they need the extra xp considering they would be skipping a lot of content anyways getting to 20.I firmly believe anyone who would let even the extreme likelihood of failing keep them from trying elites anyway to be quite the wuss. Failing horribly in elite now and again is actually a good way to help learn the game.

But I can see why this isn't very popular, as most seem to want the virtual progress on the other side of the keyboard to be much faster than the actual progress on their side.

[Gremmlynn]

Agreed. First life characters have no need of Hard or Elite. They are purely optional. :)Except that's where 2/3 of the favor is. No running of lower difficulties over will open that up.

If it's just xp you are talking about, then nobody has any need for Normal, hard or Elite as ransack resets 50% daily. It's just a desire to get the game over with as quickly as possible that drives anyone to maximize their xp. If that weren't the case then 3rd+ lifers would have just as little need to run Hard and Elite as first lifers.

[Gremmlynn]

I've been playing since update 12 or 13 and have never once had anyone drop from a group because we were running elite. Calling Shenanigans on that one. I do, however, see lots of LFMs looking for an elite opener. Removing the BB without replacing the extra xp it provides would likely be the death knell for heroics entirely and I simply don't trust the folks in charge to come up with something equitable to replace it with. The level of grind in the game is already too high and I don't think what's left of the games population can stand much more. I certainly can't.How hard is it to simply rework BB as a simple +70% bonus for the first time a quest is run? It would still be a bit better to run elite as elite has a slightly larger base xp value to multiply that 70% by, but not enough to lose sleep over missing if it happens.

[FuryFlash]

A. Remove BB.
B. Remove the extra xp needed.
c. Problem solved.


After skimming through this whole thread, my takeaway is basically what Gremmlynn said. Remove the extra XP required on a character with past lives. I think most people can agree that if you run a first life character through heroics on an elite streak, you're going to get so much XP you'll wish you needed more. Taking away BB or maybe just Streak bonus and making everyone's XP requirements equivalent to current first life requirements shouldn't have much of effect on people who already run elite (can't really talk for others, but I get more than enough XP and I often skip content simply because I've banked the max amount of XP by the time I get to it). First life characters who can run elite don't need much in the way of XP.

Add a grouping bonus to that and maybe people would consider running other difficulties. Yeah, sure many elitist players would still just run elite because it gives better XP/min, but personally I would be much happier joining normal or hard runs just for fun (while still getting enough XP!) because helping people out on lower difficulties and maybe meeting people I wouldn't see otherwise, to me results in a more fun DDO experience than just playing the game for XP. The problem right now is that on a character with past lives (which many people have) it can hurt to lose out on the BB XP if you want to join a group that's doing normal or hard.

[Enoach]

Just a note that there is more quests in the game than what is needed to earn the XP to go from 1 to 20. Of course this is with having access to all the quests in the game. Doing the Elite once and Done method I'm practically finished by the time all the level 16 quests are completed.

Yes, people use to pick a few high return XP quests and run them multiple time I think it was 9n/1h/1e. The reason was XP decay, speed due to knowledge of the quests and the fact that XP/Min was high for these quests. Personally, I usually was done after 3 runs myself.

Now XP decay recovers (this is a good thing), we have more quests, and several quests have had their XP adjusted since those days.

I agree that Bravery Bonus should continue to exist. I'm not so sure the Streak Bonus is needed, but if it is still something people want to keep maybe simply reducing it to +1% per stack for hard and +2% per stack for elite. This would max the bonus to 5% and 10% (similar to ship/VIP bonus). This would still leave it as something that is useful but remove it from something that people think the aught to have. I would prefer that the streak bonus be removed. To me the streak bonus has always been a key issue.

But as another poster pointed out the biggest issue has been with scaling quests. It is very telling that the scaling system is not working when a solo player can finish a quest in less time then a 6 man team and not by a small margin. This is because scaling effects saves, hp and damage output. Turbine needs to adjust scaling or remove it. I'm for removing it as most that I knew that solo/short manned it were not looking for the quest to be easier but for bragging rights about how they could complete a quest that usually took 4 or more players by themselves. During that time completing any quest solo was an accomplishment.

[FranOhmsford]

Except that's where 2/3 of the favor is. No running of lower difficulties over will open that up.

If it's just xp you are talking about, then nobody has any need for Normal, hard or Elite as ransack resets 50% daily. It's just a desire to get the game over with as quickly as possible that drives anyone to maximize their xp. If that weren't the case then 3rd+ lifers would have just as little need to run Hard and Elite as first lifers.

There's literally two reasons I run Elites and XP or Loot are NEITHER!

I run Elites for Favour.
I run Elites for Renown.

That's it!

I can get neither of these things {in any significant amount} running anything other than Elite!
I could get XP or Loot on ANY difficulty - Why would I even need Elite Loot if I wasn't going to run Elite?


The Overlevel Penalties for earning Renown are much much harsher than those for earning XP!
Trying to earn Renown on Normal or Hard is a fool's errand!

And as you've eloquently stated 1/3 of all renown would be impossible for me to earn if I didn't run Elite! {No Chance of EVER Earning a single +5 Tome - Rofl at the 0.00000001% chance of getting one randomly!}.


I've said this before but I feel it's worth saying over and over again:
CHANGE Favour to ignore Elite {And Casual} Instead of 2,4,6 or 3,6,9, 4,8,12 etc. on N/H/E just change it to 3 Normal, 6 Hard. 4 Normal, 8 Hard. 6 Normal, 12 Hard etc. with nothing extra for Elite. {Quests that currently give 21 Favour can be 10 Normal, 21 Hard}.

As for Renown - Really the same suggestion as the only viable way to earn Renown currently is to Saga Farm it!
Basically simplify the Rewards for Epic Sagas to E-Normal {All quests done on at least Normal} = Current Hard Reward AND E-Hard {All quests done on at least Hard = Current True Elite Reward.
Heroic Sagas can stay with the current system as they can be run massively overlevel on Elite.
I'd really like for Renown got from quests {Heroic Deeds, Tales, Trophies and Leg Victories} to be looked at as I feel the current Renown Reward System is massively in favour of E-BB Capable Characters and Punitive for anyone not running E-BB {Not just Elite, It HAS to be E-BB!}.

[kmoustakas]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.

No. Bravery is fine. As are people who don't want to be brave.

[Forzah]

I think you misunderstand. A level 12 running a level 10 quest on elite with level 10s would still get BB, just a little less than the others in the group. The level 10s would get max.

Ok, somehow I didn't understand that. The idea is a better then, though I doubt it will lead to much more grouping.

I think it would be more effective to do this:
-Get rid of BB (so that the eligible range of players becomes four levels again instead of two)
-Introduce a 5% bonus for each member in the group
-Reset the first time bonus every 2 days (so you can play a quest again later, receiving full exp)

Now it will be very easy for someone to join an LFM. You get some extra xp for grouping. If you already played the quest before, you can play it again a few days later and join LFMs that you would otherwise skip. Since the level range is greater, it is possible to run quests earlier than you would do now, or later. This extra freedom makes it much easier to join LFMs. Since heroics are played mostly for past lifes, I'm not too concerned with challenge.

[arkonas]

Before BB, people would run quests 11 times on normal and then move on to the next quest. It was extremely boring. People complained about it all the time. People hating TRing.

It is way more common to see multi TRs these days, because you just need to do quests once on elite to get enough XP to cap.



you know i was around when people did that and omg it was very numbing to do. eventually i stopped that because it bored the living **** out of me. at most i might do is 2 runs. normally i just do elite and move on. So i've been playing since oct 09 and non vip premium player. so either i can open normal/hard/elite depending on my toon i play. what do i prefer most? elite. why? its more challenging and fun for me. do i help people? yes. do i zerg? yes sometimes and no. depends on my mood. do i play other difficulties sometimes but it more depends on my toon then groups. this will always go back to what do i want to do? personally i don't care what others want to do. its what i find fun and want to run. so normally i will pop a lfm or solo if i want to do something. just ran a bunch of 7's today on elite.

i did the normal then hard then elite. i hated it. i got so annoyed having to run a quest 3 times to max out the favor. how do you think a new person feels as well? they can get bored just like i did. turbine can do all sorts of things to try to make things appealing but no matter what its going to be the players who decide. that is the mentality you need to change. maybe lend your hand to new players or returning. you can't complain about this and that if you do nothing yourself. this problem has always been a people issue not the game.

[FranOhmsford]

But as another poster pointed out the biggest issue has been with scaling quests. It is very telling that the scaling system is not working when a solo player can finish a quest in less time then a 6 man team and not by a small margin. This is because scaling effects saves, hp and damage output. Turbine needs to adjust scaling or remove it. I'm for removing it as most that I knew that solo/short manned it were not looking for the quest to be easier but for bragging rights about how they could complete a quest that usually took 4 or more players by themselves. During that time completing any quest solo was an accomplishment.

Soloing will ALWAYS be faster than Grouping for the majority of quests simply by virtue of the time it takes to get a group together! {I put up LFMs regularly and 75% of the time finish quests before more than one person has joined, probably 50% of the time before even that one person joins! AND I'M NOT THAT FAST EITHER!}.

All turning Scaling round would do is make it impossible for new/casual players to solo at all and vets on ungeared alts could have trouble too.
I never soloed for Bragging Rights - I soloed because I had to or because I wanted to {yes sometimes I didn't feel like grouping, I just wanted to relax and solo play}.

A lot of the time I solo because I know a group will not want to run the quest the way I want to run it - I don't want 3 different people going off in 3 different directions in Tomb of the Shadow Knight because I want to get all those Traps and smash all those Sarcophagi and I don't want to miss half the quest either, I'm not in a Rush!
Sometimes it really doesn't matter than soloing is quicker than Grouping - Because I can solo at my own pace rather than being RUSHED!
And no I'm not "Flower-Sniffing" either, I'm moving along at MY OWN PACE!

You know there's nothing worse than putting up an IP LFG for let's say VoN 3 and methodically clearing all mobs just to have some guy who joined when you were half way through go zooming past you just before the end and locking you out of the Marut fight because he couldn't be bothered to wait up to 30 seconds for you to join him! I know I can get in after the fight's over - It's just rude!
You did most of the quest for him - You've probably saved him a good 3-4 minutes but that's not enough - He has to shave off that extra 10 seconds!

[arkonas]

Soloing will ALWAYS be faster than Grouping for the majority of quests simply by virtue of the time it takes to get a group together! {I put up LFMs regularly and 75% of the time finish quests before more than one person has joined, probably 50% of the time before even that one person joins! AND I'M NOT THAT FAST EITHER!}.

All turning Scaling round would do is make it impossible for new/casual players to solo at all and vets on ungeared alts could have trouble too.
I never soloed for Bragging Rights - I soloed because I had to or because I wanted to {yes sometimes I didn't feel like grouping, I just wanted to relax and solo play}.

A lot of the time I solo because I know a group will not want to run the quest the way I want to run it - I don't want 3 different people going off in 3 different directions in Tomb of the Shadow Knight because I want to get all those Traps and smash all those Sarcophagi and I don't want to miss half the quest either, I'm not in a Rush!
Sometimes it really doesn't matter than soloing is quicker than Grouping - Because I can solo at my own pace rather than being RUSHED!
And no I'm not "Flower-Sniffing" either, I'm moving along at MY OWN PACE!

You know there's nothing worse than putting up an IP LFG for let's say VoN 3 and methodically clearing all mobs just to have some guy who joined when you were half way through go zooming past you just before the end and locking you out of the Marut fight because he couldn't be bothered to wait up to 30 seconds for you to join him! I know I can get in after the fight's over - It's just rude!
You did most of the quest for him - You've probably saved him a good 3-4 minutes but that's not enough - He has to shave off that extra 10 seconds!

see this is exactly what i was talking about. this is a people issue not something turbine could do anything about. communication is so huge in game and out of game but so many people lack this. i have ran hundreds of groups where no one talked at all. not expecting chatterboxes but it does go to show sometimes people join in then do the quest then either leave or stay. sadly this issue will always exist in all games. i see this constant problem in so many games. you have people in evolve who will quit if things don't go right. so many games where people dc because they were dying/losing which throws out the whole game or something like that. this is a common problem. nothing turbine can do to fix this issue.

[Danuru]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. I have lost count of the number of times somebody joins the party when you are in a quest only to see "Oh I only play elite" and have them immediately disappear. I think that multi-TRed players forget that first lifers CANNOT open quests on other than normal, first time around unless they are VIPS. This is ENTIRELY due to bravery bonuses and the simple expedient of abolishing these for heroic content would almost certainly aid retention of new players.
I have no view of the utility or otherwise of the Bravery (streak) Bonus in Epic content.

You've gotta be kidding! Is there a problem at all? I mean, maybe you feel it that way, but if the streak is a real problem, hirelings and warlocks will be at top of that and need to be removed first.

[Coyopa]

see this is exactly what i was talking about. this is a people issue not something turbine could do anything about. communication is so huge in game and out of game but so many people lack this. i have ran hundreds of groups where no one talked at all. not expecting chatterboxes but it does go to show sometimes people join in then do the quest then either leave or stay. sadly this issue will always exist in all games. i see this constant problem in so many games. you have people in evolve who will quit if things don't go right. so many games where people dc because they were dying/losing which throws out the whole game or something like that. this is a common problem. nothing turbine can do to fix this issue.

I'm in groups where people either don't talk or rarely talk. I figure there's just not much to talk about when people know the quest and we don't otherwise know each other, making it hard to drum up small talk that isn't annoying. This past weekend I was in a group on Saturday and again Sunday with one guy who would NOT SHUT UP. Talked ALL. THE. TIME. and made the most stupid, most lame jokes. F****** wore me out with his constant inane chatter and I ended up having to drop group because of the drain on my personal energy.

[Holleyz]

I'm in groups where people either don't talk or rarely talk. I figure there's just not much to talk about when people know the quest and we don't otherwise know each other, making it hard to drum up small talk that isn't annoying. This past weekend I was in a group on Saturday and again Sunday with one guy who would NOT SHUT UP. Talked ALL. THE. TIME. and made the most stupid, most lame jokes. F****** wore me out with his constant inane chatter and I ended up having to drop group because of the drain on my personal energy.

OMG right? Try gaming with this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7khBemjGTA Ran a chain with him on the wayfinder server last weekend. He would NOT SHUT UP!

[bracelet]

But as another poster pointed out the biggest issue has been with scaling quests. It is very telling that the scaling system is not working when a solo player can finish a quest in less time then a 6 man team and not by a small margin.

I have seen this claim a lot over the years. My experience has been the exact opposite. Apart from actually getting a group together, which indeed does take more time than it's worth, actually running a quest with two or more people is usually far faster than soloing. Unless the quest is a set time like Devil Assault. Six people in a quest can complete it extremely quickly in most cases -scaling is irrelevant.

Can you name a quest where this effect you have seen shows up? I would like to try it out to see if I can solo it faster, than with a group.

[JOTMON]

I have seen this claim a lot over the years. My experience has been the exact opposite. Apart from actually getting a group together, which indeed does take more time than it's worth, actually running a quest with two or more people is usually far faster than soloing. Unless the quest is a set time like Devil Assault. Six people in a quest can complete it extremely quickly in most cases -scaling is irrelevant.

Can you name a quest where this effect you have seen shows up? I would like to try it out to see if I can solo it faster, than with a group.

At level Enter the Kobold..
I find easier and quicker to solo. Dungeon scaling also makes the end fight much easier and survivable..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
...as to grouping issues...
This generally applies more to pug groups, not organized zerg groups that actually work well together..

any gather your party quest and you have players that are not staying with the group..
players that do AFK's... (real life gets in the way of game time)..
players taking the long route to get to the group because they joined an in progress LFM
players having to 'make the run'..
players that don't know the way, or the quest.
lots of other issues...

there is a lot of diversity in player skill, ability, knowledge..
mix & match these and it doesn't always go well..

Unfortunately there is a push to run elite first time because of the Bravery Bonus which pulls players into groups that they shouldn't really be in.. but they join because that is generally all that is available and they want to play as well.. they just don't know they are in way over their heads and should be in a normal run dungeon crawling/flower sniffing, not in an elite zerg run..

another issue..
As far as I am concerned there should be no Dungeon Scaling in Elite runs.. for normal.. sure dungeon scale all you want.. but elite is where you should be on your game..

[bracelet]

At level Enter the Kobold..
I find easier and quicker to solo. Dungeon scaling also makes the end fight much easier and survivable..


Hmm. Maybe this one. That end fight is one of the worst in DDO. But the quest is going to take much longer to solo if you die in that fight, much longer as in forever. There is no shrine to fix you, and in all likelihood your hire is going to be dead the second he ports in. Jibbers will be no help at all unless you were a sliver away from completing it.


Any gather your party quest and you have players that are not staying with the group..


This has nothing to do with scaling.



players that do AFK's... (real life gets in the way of game time)..
players taking the long route to get to the group because they joined an in progress LFM
players having to 'make the run'..
players that don't know the way, or the quest.


Again -nothing to do with scaling.

The assertion is that scaling is what makes grouping slower than soloing. With the possible exception of Enter The Kobold (which I have my doubts about simply because a group has a better chance of at least someone staying alive at all times), I maintain that this is not true -a group will pretty much always complete faster if they start at the same time as the soloer -scaling will not be an impediment.

What *is* true is all those other things that you mentioned. Waiting for the group to get organized and *then* running the quest is what is slower than soloing. That is why scaling is a "problem" because it allows people to get into the quest and complete it before they would have got a group together to do it. That is something that could also be solved by allowing people to port straight into the dungeon the moment they join a group. But changing scaling would probably be a mistake.

[Coyopa]

OMG right? Try gaming with this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7khBemjGTA Ran a chain with him on the wayfinder server last weekend. He would NOT SHUT UP!

I hate that guy. My nephew watches his stupid videos about Minecraft. I make my nephew wear headphones when he comes to visit and is watching that dude's videos on youtube. It's either that or my nephew is prohibited from watching his videos.

[LagMonsterrrrrr]

We should have an option to exclude bad players from the groups.

Way better than remove BB.

[Coyopa]

We should have an option to exclude bad players from the groups.

Way better than remove BB.

No thanks. That'll just put us right back where we used to be with people excluding people from groups because they don't understand and don't like your class splits or whatever other farcical reason they concoct.

[JOTMON]

This has nothing to do with scaling.
Again -nothing to do with scaling.


the part under the ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
was directed to organizing the party issue vs solo'ing and not the dungeon scaling..
although Dungeon Scaling does encourage me to skip the LFM and just go it alone...




The assertion is that scaling is what makes grouping slower than soloing. With the possible exception of Enter The Kobold (which I have my doubts about simply because a group has a better chance of at least someone staying alive at all times), I maintain that this is not true -a group will pretty much always complete faster if they start at the same time as the soloer -scaling will not be an impediment.


and you cant just ignore the time putting the party together and starting at the same time vs just going it alone.. it is a factor
If I have a real time hour to play.. I only have an hour to play.. not half an hour to get the group together and to the quest and then an hour to play the quest..

also..
getting together a party of zerging solo'ists is not really a fair comparison vs putting togther a pug group where you get a full spectrum of players..





What *is* true is all those other things that you mentioned. Waiting for the group to get organized and *then* running the quest is what is slower than soloing. That is why scaling is a "problem" because it allows people to get into the quest and complete it before they would have got a group together to do it. That is something that could also be solved allowing people to port straight into the dungeon the moment they join a group. But changing scaling would probably be a mistake.

I agree (except for the 'But changing scaling would probably be a mistake')

port to entrance would be helpful..
Stormhorns was a decent implementation for this..
Eveningstar part 2 (shynderlinnynnn).. not so much.. especially when a late joiner doesn't know the way and/or hasn't done the 'run'..

an item that should of been useful but fell short.. bracelet of friends.. mostly useless[expletive]... not useful where you want/need.. after feeling like getting screwed on charges when using up half a dozen wasted charges while it fails to port people for all kinds of excuses.. cant take people to FR.. cant take people to slayers.. wont port to entrance because you are in quest.. failed person was already porting.. [expletive] thing went in the bank to collect dust..

Bigby's hand.. I tried them them, after using a bunch I was done with them forever..
expensive for consumable item.. would have been better served as a x uses/rest..



Elite is where every player should be on their game and already 'know the quest', be flagged, know the way, be ready to go... (goes to my bravery bonus comments)

Scaling for elite I still believe is an issue.. and Dungeon scaling should be removed here..
Dungeon Scaling here is detrimental.. Solo'ists are seeing the biggest benefit here.. fewer mobs with reduced saves, HP..
at the point in the game where you should be relying on teamwork to get it done.. is where DDO gives the solo'er the edge..

I don't care about scaling in normal content.. have at it.. but in elite.. that should be the challenge that drives players to team up, or you better be uberness and loaded up with resources to solo and its still going to take you 4x longer...

[Uska]

Removing BB won't do anything but tick some people off neither it or merging will really help grouping their many other things that hurt that.

[GoldyGopher]

Removing BB won't do anything but tick some people off neither it or merging will really help grouping their many other things that hurt that.

You cannot simple remove BB, Streak, Daily, Dungeon Scaling, blah blah blah. It needs to be replaced with something. Its the combination of all these items (and many more) that is hurting the game. Talking about what comes next should be what we and the players council should be talking about.

I know what I would do if I were executive producer, franchise manager (or whatever is leading this ship), but it requires time and money which obviously Turbine does not have.

[KoobTheProud]

I don't care about scaling in normal content.. have at it.. but in elite.. that should be the challenge that drives players to team up, or you better be uberness and loaded up with resources to solo and its still going to take you 4x longer...

This is a really good point, although it sidesteps the reality that Normal is already casual content, particularly at Epic levels.

I solo Epic Elite for Mysterious Remnants essentially. Also for better Tokens of the Twelve and a few pieces of Epic Elite gear but mainly for the Mysterious Remnants. Bravery Bonus doesn't really matter all that much because I'm currently doing ETR's and there's no Bravery Bonus for the extra runs through Epic levels.

If Epic Elite content did not scale I would certainly be doing Epic Hard instead, for the Mysterious Remnants. I'm already pushed, with frequent deaths, until I reach the levels where best gear becomes available. Without scaling I would play Epic Hard until I got the endgame gear levels and then I would probably bounce off of Epic Elite with a lot of deaths but enjoying the challenge involved and still farming the remnants.

[ArekDorun]

I don't know if any suggestions for replacing the Bravery Bonus have been made in this thread or not, but here are my thoughts on BB:
Remove the bravery streak bonus (and counter). This won't remove all incentive to run elite (see below), but it will make running lower difficulties more bearable.
Increase the base bravery bonus to 15% Hard, 30% Elite. This is now your primary XP-based incentive to run higher difficulties. It's still quite large, so I feel Elites will be run often enough.
Add a permanent 5% grouping bonus. This makes the overall bonus better on Hard, but worse on Elite, provided you run with a full group.

Yes, I realize that some people would just run with 5 bots/friends, and some would completely ignore the grouping bonus, but I feel that this would encourage grouping, at least somewhat, or at least encourage people to run "open" parties, kinda like what happens on grouping xp weekends. :)

--ArekDorun

[JOTMON]

I don't know if any suggestions for replacing the Bravery Bonus have been made in this thread or not, but here are my thoughts on BB:
Remove the bravery streak bonus (and counter). This won't remove all incentive to run elite (see below), but it will make running lower difficulties more bearable.
Increase the base bravery bonus to 15% Hard, 30% Elite. This is now your primary XP-based incentive to run higher difficulties. It's still quite large, so I feel Elites will be run often enough.
Add a permanent 5% grouping bonus. This makes the overall bonus better on Hard, but worse on Elite, provided you run with a full group.

Yes, I realize that some people would just run with 5 bots/friends, and some would completely ignore the grouping bonus, but I feel that this would encourage grouping, at least somewhat, or at least encourage people to run "open" parties, kinda like what happens on grouping xp weekends. :)

--ArekDorun

Meh, Bravery just gives bonus xp to TR zergers ..
I would just drop Bravery Bonus all together and remove the discouragement from running lower difficulties so as to 'not break the streak',
besides Elite/hard don't need bonuses for xp from running a streak.
Just give Hard/Elite better recognizably better XP and loot over Normal and give all quests better optional XP...
..
Give better xp when running quests below quest level... that should be bravery.. no streak required..

Grouping xp bonus is a good incentive.

[Kylstrem]

Meh, Bravery just gives bonus xp to TR zergers ..
I would just drop Bravery Bonus all together and remove the discouragement from running lower difficulties so as to 'not break the streak',
.

Still missing the point. The streak is not the discouragement to running lower difficulty levels in heroics.
The time to run it takes to run it on normal or hard is the discouragement. For the majority, people that are ignoring LFMS for Normal/Hard are not doing it because "OMG, my streak number will go to 0". They want to be one-and-done with that heroic quest. If the running on normal/hard no longer breaks the streak, you still won't have the "streakers" joining Normal-run LFMs.


Until most of you understand that, you are just spitting into the wind.

[Matthey]

I don't know if any suggestions for replacing the Bravery Bonus have been made in this thread or not, but here are my thoughts on BB:
Remove the bravery streak bonus (and counter). This won't remove all incentive to run elite (see below), but it will make running lower difficulties more bearable.
Increase the base bravery bonus to 15% Hard, 30% Elite. This is now your primary XP-based incentive to run higher difficulties. It's still quite large, so I feel Elites will be run often enough.
Add a permanent 5% grouping bonus. This makes the overall bonus better on Hard, but worse on Elite, provided you run with a full group.


I was thinking of a similar replacement before reading your idea.


Remove the bravery streak bonus (and counter).
Increase the base heroic bravery bonus to 20% for hard and 40% for elite difficulty.
Add a permanent 5% grouping bonus (real humans only please).
Allow premium players to open quests on hard difficulty (VIP players can still open elite).
Less dungeon scaling on harder difficulties to make soloing more difficult and encourage grouping.
Improve monster AI on harder difficulty instead of boosting monster champions into outrageous territory. I like the idea of champs but they are often over boosted for elite which is only 2 levels higher. Quest NPCs can often be one shot by champs. Also, champ debuffs and dungeon alerts should be removed. Give more monsters if necessary instead of monsters which feel like they have to cheat to make up for their lack of AI.

[GoldyGopher]

Still missing the point. The streak is not the discouragement to running lower difficulty levels in heroics.
The time to run it takes to run it on normal or hard is the discouragement. For the majority, people that are ignoring LFMS for Normal/Hard are not doing it because "OMG, my streak number will go to 0". They want to be one-and-done with that heroic quest. If the running on normal/hard no longer breaks the streak, you still won't have the "streakers" joining Normal-run LFMs.


Until most of you understand that, you are just spitting into the wind.

It's actually the reverse, people need more incentive to run the content on Normal and Hard. Especially player and character combinations that may not be up to snuff for elite.

Right now every incentive practically requires players and characters to run on Elite.

[Axeyu]

It's actually the reverse, people need more incentive to run the content on Normal and Hard. Especially player and character combinations that may not be up to snuff for elite.

Right now every incentive practically requires players and characters to run on Elite.

No. We absolutely do not need to go backwards to the NNNNNNHE meta. Even a NHE meta would be bad.

The incentives are currently correctly placed.


If it was actually a big problem that people who want to run normal can't find a group for it, then they would find a group for it. So it really is a non-issue and messing with the very successful bravery bonuses and streaks that ended the NNNNNNNHE meta and made the TR game far more enjoyable to try to fix it is a terrible idea.

[Chai]

There still exists a misconception on the forums I still see years later, after many discussions, between bravery bonus and first time completion bonus. Bravery bonus didn't end the NNNNNHE meta. First time completion bonus did. If the first time completion bonus is left in, and bravery bonus eliminated and replaced with 10% per group member bonus, not only does this still encourage running other quests rather than farming the same quest, but it also encourages grouping over soloing. The tech is already there, and this makes the most sense in an MMO.

Furthermore, there is still another misconception playing itself out in the crowd who believes the current system is best. It is regarding how much XP is actually lost. The reality is as follows: If you were elite streaking and dropped the streak for a PUG to run something on Hard, your streak bonus over the next few quests went from 50/50/50/50/50/50 to 25/25/25/30/40/50, a loss of 105% base XP spread over several quests. That's one-third of an elite once-and-done quest reward, or 40% of a hard one. If your quests gave the same amount of XP, it was thus *objectively wrong* to wait around in town 10 minutes for an alternate group when there was a hard difficulty run going that would take 15 minutes.

Another often played out extreme example of this misconception causing errors in xp/min judgement is when you see a VON5 at-level (heroic or epic) elite run that's in-progress and people don't join because they'll get a -80% penalty for late entry. That means spending 5 minutes in the quest (plus a few in 6) and getting 240% of base XP, or ~75% of what the people that have spent 30-45 minutes in it get.

Most of the bravery bonus and scaling discussions are more forum DDO, where people want the game optimized around their own gaming habits rather than supporting a system which caters to multiple demographics of players.

[Axeyu]

There still exists a misconception on the forums I still see years later, after many discussions, between bravery bonus and first time completion bonus. Bravery bonus didn't end the NNNNNHE meta. First time completion bonus did. If the first time completion bonus is left in, and bravery bonus eliminated and replaced with 10% per group member bonus, not only does this still encourage running other quests rather than farming the same quest, but it also encourages grouping over soloing. The tech is already there, and this makes the most sense in an MMO.

Bravery bonus is a first time bonus. Replacing it with a group bonus would only encourage the old NNNNNHE meta.

[Chai]

Bravery bonus is a first time bonus. Replacing it with a group bonus would only encourage the old NNNNNHE meta.

Not true if my suggestion in the post you quoted is followed. Players would get same XP for first time completion (and far less for more completions of the same quest), thus eliminating any concern of going back to NNNNNNHE tropes of years past.

Bravery didn't eliminate the NNNNNHE trope. It merely turned it into EEEEEEHN trope.

First time bonus eliminated the NNNNNNHE trope.

In addition, I have already dispelled the myth that farming the same quest is necessary by doing a TR on normal once and done, never repeating a quest. The people who want the fastest way possible do still farm high XP quests like von5 and shadow crypt. Those who want to play once and done still have that option, even on normal with a TR2+ character.

[Axeyu]

Not true if my suggestion in the post you quoted is followed. Players would get same XP for first time completion (and far less for more completions of the same quest), thus eliminating any concern of going back to NNNNNNHE tropes of years past.

Bravery didn't eliminate the NNNNNHE trope. It merely turned it into EEEEEEHN trope.

First time bonus eliminated the NNNNNNHE trope.

Nonsense. Bravery bonus IS a first time bonus. If it is removed and replaced with a constant bonus that would directly increase the exp on repeating the quest and thus reducing the incentive to run another quest on elite instead.

[Chai]

Nonsense. Bravery bonus IS a first time bonus. If it is removed and replaced with a constant bonus that would directly increase the exp on repeating the quest and thus reducing the incentive to run another quest on elite instead.

This is incorrect due to first time XP bonus. Understanding the difference between bravery bonus and first time completion bonus is necessary here to understand my suggestion.

Your claim that farming no longer exists is also incorrect, as it still happens EEEEEHN instead of NNNNNHE in high XP quests. Farmers still gonna farm. If you don't want to farm, under my proposed system you don't have to, and still get the same XP. No need to worry about how the farmers play, just play the way you want to.

In addition, I have already dispelled the myth that farming the same quest is necessary by doing a TR on normal once and done, never repeating a quest. The people who want the fastest way possible do still farm high XP quests like von5 and shadow crypt. Those who want to play once and done still have that option, even on normal with a TR2+ character.

[Axeyu]

This is incorrect due to first time XP bonus.

Your claim that farming no longer exists is also incorrect, as it still happens EEEEEHN instead of NNNNNHE in high XP quests. Farmers still gonna farm. If you don't want to farm, under my proposed system you don't have to, and still get the same XP. No need to worry about how the farmers play, just play the way you want to.

No it is not incorrect, it is a basic mathematical truth. Ofcourse 50% additional exp bonus means more exp, and thus makes is comparatively better.

I have not claimed that farming does not exist, so I will disregard that entire paragraph. If have a point to make, make it without lying.

[Enoach]

I have seen this claim a lot over the years. My experience has been the exact opposite. Apart from actually getting a group together, which indeed does take more time than it's worth, actually running a quest with two or more people is usually far faster than soloing. Unless the quest is a set time like Devil Assault. Six people in a quest can complete it extremely quickly in most cases -scaling is irrelevant.

Can you name a quest where this effect you have seen shows up? I would like to try it out to see if I can solo it faster, than with a group.

I'm only counting the time running the quest not the time to gather a group. I'm also doing this from a perspective that all members enter at the same time and are all of similar skill. I am also not considering true optional that requires leaving the main path to complete as a group can split up and do optional as well as continue with completion thus negating part of the time to complete optional.

Factors that come into play:

1. Fights that can be skipped
There are several quests that have fights that can be skipped using stealth. Solo this is generally easier as you are dependent only on your ability to be stealthy. While this is not directly related to Scaling, it is indirectly based on the CR to HD that effects Mobs saves/skill check bonus - Listen being a Wisdom Skill...

2. Mob DCs and Choice of abilities
I've seen this on several occasions running a quest Solo on Elite and not once being held, stunned or otherwise ensnared. Turn around with a group and with even more targets to be picked from I'm held, stunned or otherwise ensnared.

3. Mob CR (HD, Hit Points and Saves)
When you run a quest Solo Mobs have fewer Hit Points. I have several characters that can lay down a beating that when in a full group it will take several hits to drop a mob. But when I solo I can drop many in one to two hits. As a DC caster I've tried several tests based on being solo and in groups. It is telling when you can run the quest on a difficulty without any Meta's to improve DCs, but need those meta's to land when you are running in a group. I actually recommend anyone with a DC caster to give this a try when running a quest to see just how much they really need. I was surprised and a bit upset because as a DC caster when I run a quest solo I want the effectiveness of my abilities to be the same as if I was grouped, and what this was telling me is that I was more effective alone.

One of my favorite examples of this is Devil's Assault. I ran this Solo on my Paladin and just before the End Fight put up an LFM for people to come in and loot. I had the End Boss down to 25% before the last person joined the group. But as people entered the Quest the 25% advantage disappeared and now I had 75% of his health to go.

-------------

Generally, any quest with lots of mobs and a requirement to actually beat down those mobs will be faster in a Group than doing it by yourself. The problem comes when we are talking that these mobs have a 50% HP difference between Solo and Full Group.

-------------
Scaling should not have changed the HD/Saves/DCs of the mobs. It should have changed the CR of the Encounter. You do that by changing the Encounter's make-up. Change the caster type from a Cleric to Shaman, add a Cleric, add a higher rated mob such as a Orc Warrior instead of Orc Commoner.

Scaling was intended to allow someone to run Solo in the same amount of time as doing it in a group. Personally, I didn't agree with it but I understood Turbine was trying to reach out to a crowd of people who were claiming finding a group was too hard. I know that those I knew that solo'd didn't want the quest to be easier as that robbed them of the satisfaction of beating something that should take 4+ people to do.

[Chai]

Under my suggestion everyone gets the same XP playing how they want. If the farmers still want to farm, doesn't bother me, because that's just them playing how they want. I still get to play how I want and get the same XP I do now, and so does everyone else. No need to enforce my chosen playstyle on everyone else. Under the current system, people who deviate from the one "best XP possible" method do not get as much XP, which is why the game turned into running elite only.

The "need" to farm is a myth, which I dispelled per my previous posts, by running normal once and done on a 2xTR last year. More content has been added since then. Any claim that the XP bonus is "needed" to not have to farm hinges on the tropes of previous eras of DDO where not enough content existed to get to 20 on a 2xTR once and done. This hasn't been the case for at least a year now - probably longer, even on normal. Time to stop clinging to a system which rewards one playstyle, in favor of a system which can reward all.

[Axeyu]

Your suggestion is hopelessly naive and forgets why there should be incentives in the first place.
I have already explained why engaging gameplay should be encouraged over mindless repetition even if the repetition isnt forced.

[Forzah]

This is incorrect due to first time XP bonus.

As far as I'm concerned the first time XP bonusses have always been in the game, even before the bravery bonus was implemented. There are separate first time completion bonusses for normal, hard, and elite.

If the bravery bonus for elite is removed, people can run the quests in the order they want without losing a bonus, so it's evident that more players than now will farm high XP quests the old NNNNNNHE way. Whether that's a good or bad I don't know, but that this will happen with your suggestion is beyond debate.

[Enoach]

Bravery bonus is a first time bonus. Replacing it with a group bonus would only encourage the old NNNNNHE meta.

I've underlined what I think is a very important distinction. Bravery Bonus is the First time bonus you get from running a quest for the First Time this life.

However, it does get confused with the First Time you run a quest on a particular difficulty. This bonus is available no matter how many times you run a quest on a different difficulty.

This is part of what makes this hard to discuss because with so many people running Elite Streak they blend, the Bravery Bonus (First Time Ever this life running quest), Streak Bonus (Result of number of stacks up to 5 completed on previous quests), and First Time Difficulty bonus as one thing when it isn't one thing.

----------
Of all of these bonuses my opinion is that it is not Bravery Bonus or First Time Difficulty bonus that are the problem. It is that there is a reward based on what you ran the last up to 5 quests on. Sure you were brave then, but why should your past bravery grant you 50% base XP on this new quest? To me that has never made sense.

Reasons people run Elite today which does not require an XP bonus


Favor - Especially for TP. But for those that like to TR/IR but have a lot of stuff in TR Cache, bank and backpack space are needed to hold that stuff for the next TR
Challenge - I find people generally don't want the quest just handed to them. I realize if you read the forums there seems to be those that appear they just want the XP handed to them, but for the most part people like to play a game that they find fun, most people stop playing a game when it becomes too easy. This is a problem that Elite became overly accessible for a cheap cost. Some of the most fun memories I have is running a quest on Elite where the Group completed bloodied and by are sheer will to press on.
Because it is there - Similar to challenge some people run elite because it is an option. These people are usually ok with failing because it is the effort in trying to succeed that is fun for them


There are more and even some I've probably not thought about.

----------

Bottom line I don't think the Bravery Bonus needs to be removed, I think the Streak Bonus should either be removed or Reduced to a 5% Hard and 10% Elite. I say this because Elite quests today do not take 50% longer to complete then if they are run on Normal and the point of these boost to XP was not to get people to run quests on Elite, but to help a group of players that didn't want to run quests 11x to be able to have enough XP to make it to 20 on their 3rd+ life character. We have more quests and with Sagas even more XP earning options then we had at the time these bonuses were implemented. So I agree we need to look at and possibly adjust things like the Streak Bonus to see if it makes sense.

I think Turbine needs to ask the question of if they want more of their Heroic content to be relevant as so much of it is missed because people out level it.

[Chai]

As far as I'm concerned the first time XP bonusses have always been in the game, even before the bravery bonus was implemented. There are separate first time completion bonusses for normal, hard, and elite.

If the bravery bonus for elite is removed, people can run the quests in the order they want, so it's evident that players will farm some high XP quests the old NNNNNNHE way. Whether that's a good or bad I don't know, but that this will happen with your suggestion is not detable.

Versus farming EEEEEEHN as they do now for those same high XP quests?

/shrug. Farmers gonna farm, regardless. Whether its NNNNNHE or EEEEEHN is a discussion of semantics only. The current system penalizes anyone who doesn't play a very specific way. My suggestion gives everyone the same first time completion XP regardless how they play. Time to stop restricting everyone in the game to only one path to max XP, and allow players to play how they want, sans penalty.

[Vint]

If the first time completion bonus is left in, and bravery bonus eliminated and replaced with 10% per group member bonus, not only does this still encourage running other quests rather than farming the same quest, but it also encourages grouping over soloing. The tech is already there, and this makes the most sense in an MMO.

I cannot buy into this. What happens when I log on and put up an LFM for Threnal and no one joins for an hour? I should not be penalized xp because either no one is in my level range or no one wants to run the content.

The real misconception is that people want to group. For one minute lets forget Bravery, dungeon scaling, dungeon alert, xp, streaks, favor. You have to look at peoples motives for playing and things that will turn them away. If people were that worried about grouping, you would not see so many people staying only in guild, channel or soling. For whatever reason, they do not want to group with others (puggers that is).

I cannot and will not buy into the notion that people shortman or solo simply because it is easier. I firmly believe that people stay to themselves and their little clique because they do not want some "outsider" bothering them.

This post is not necessarily directed at you, but it gets old seeing the same old forumites demanding that Turbine add some sort of forced grouping (or making it harder for soloers/short man) when it is obvious that the bulk of players do not want to play with outsiders no matter if this is an MMO.

[GoldyGopher]

I don't believe that anyone who is advocating for changing removing Bravery Bonus/Streak wants to return to NNNNNHE strategy of maximizing XP from high XP quests.

I am going to use the word broken to describe the entire XP/Favor system even though I know that the word broken is not entirely accurate. After days, weeks, and months of thinking about I am not sure that you can change/fix any part single part of the system without continuing to have a broken system. Too much of the system is broken.

[Chai]

I cannot buy into this. What happens when I log on and put up an LFM for Threnal and no one joins for an hour? I should not be penalized xp because either no one is in my level range or no one wants to run the content.

People will join up. That's the point. Incentivize grouping = grouping. We see a lot of folks wanting to group when the XP bonus is live now. Making it permanent will just continue to encourage that behavior.


The real misconception is that people want to group. For one minute lets forget Bravery, dungeon scaling, dungeon alert, xp, streaks, favor. You have to look at peoples motives for playing and things that will turn them away. If people were that worried about grouping, you would not see so many people staying only in guild, channel or soling. For whatever reason, they do not want to group with others (puggers that is).

I don't agree that the majority of folks who play an MMO would rather play it solo. Single player games dominate the single player market. People play an MMO because other players play an MMO, and the potential for grouping exists.


I cannot and will not buy into the notion that people shortman or solo simply because it is easier. I firmly believe that people stay to themselves and their little clique because they do not want some "outsider" bothering them.

You are a veteran player who has been here since early on, and I trust you remember when people grouped more. This is when grouping was more desired and made questing easier. Once soloing was made easier due to scaling, as well as max xp/min, more soloing occurred. If grouping was made more desireable, more grouping occurs, as evidenced by the 10% bonus over weekends, where groups are much easier to form. The "anti-social MMO gamers" you are trying to highlight are the severe minority, exist in every game, but do not impact everyone elses desire to play with others.


This post is not necessarily directed at you, but it gets old seeing the same old forumites demanding that Turbine add some sort of forced grouping (or making it harder for soloers/short man) when it is obvious that the bulk of players do not want to play with outsiders no matter if this is an MMO.

It also gets old seeing the same forumites confusing incentives to group with forced grouping. Its ironic that an MMO has this many incentives to solo, when there are plenty of single player games which better serve this purpose.

[Enoach]

I don't believe that anyone who is advocating for changing removing Bravery Bonus/Streak wants to return to NNNNNHE strategy of maximizing XP from high XP quests.

I am going to use the word broken to describe the entire XP/Favor system even though I know that the word broken is not entirely accurate. After days, weeks, and months of thinking about I am not sure that you can change/fix any part single part of the system without continuing to have a broken system. Too much of the system is broken.

I agree, I don't want 9n/H/E to be the Fastest XP option.

Based on my recollection the reason we had this was:


Not enough Quests/XP earning opportunities at level ranges
Quests there were fewer good XP/Min quests


And while doing this should be an option for someone, since this system has been put in place to grant an alternative Turbine has Added more quests filling level ranges which use to be barren. They have also adjust XP on quests based on different criteria making some quests like Spies in the House which barely was run for favor, now one of the more popular XP runs.

Sure a person could still simply learn a handful of quests and run them over and over again to earn the XP but now more than ever running a diverse list of quests can earn the XP in roughly the same amount of time.

[Vint]

It also gets old seeing the same forumites confusing incentives to group with forced grouping. Its ironic that an MMO has this many incentives to solo, when there are plenty of single player games which better serve this purpose.

I'm not trying to be the contrarian, just the devils advocate. Your idea is not terrible, but there are downsides. The xp for each group member happens on weekends. Certain time zones on a weekday will suffer xp wise because of this.

Either way I feel that it is a move like this is a little too late. I don't really have a dog in the fight on this issue as I stay in heroic content and the xp is to easy to get to worry about some little bonus xp.

[Forzah]

I cannot buy into this. What happens when I log on and put up an LFM for Threnal and no one joins for an hour? I should not be penalized xp because either no one is in my level range or no one wants to run the content.

The real misconception is that people want to group. For one minute lets forget Bravery, dungeon scaling, dungeon alert, xp, streaks, favor. You have to look at peoples motives for playing and things that will turn them away. If people were that worried about grouping, you would not see so many people staying only in guild, channel or soling. For whatever reason, they do not want to group with others (puggers that is).

I cannot and will not buy into the notion that people shortman or solo simply because it is easier. I firmly believe that people stay to themselves and their little clique because they do not want some "outsider" bothering them.

This post is not necessarily directed at you, but it gets old seeing the same old forumites demanding that Turbine add some sort of forced grouping (or making it harder for soloers/short man) when it is obvious that the bulk of players do not want to play with outsiders no matter if this is an MMO.

You can absorb (part of) the bravery bonus into the first time completion bonus to solve this. Then it's up to the player to decide if he wants the extra xp for grouping or stay solo and get similar xp as before. For some, the extra xp may well be worth the inconvenience of meeting a bad player every now and then. This creates an incentive to group and gives the solo player more choices.

[Vint]

You can absorb (part of) the bravery bonus into the first time completion bonus to solve this. Then it's up to the player to decide if he wants the extra xp for grouping or stay solo and get similar xp as before. For some, the extra xp may well be worth the inconvenience of meeting a bad player every now and then. This creates an incentive to group and gives the solo player more choices.

I think I misspoke on this one. It is well known that I prefer to solo, but this is not why I initially posted. I posted earlier in the thread that Turbine should have gotten rid of BB years ago and increased first time bonuses across the board.

The reason for my frustration is that this idea has been tossed around for years on the boards and Turbine has turned a blind eye to it. It is their game and they have no obligation to listen to us, but this idea does nothing but help everyone while encouraging grouping.

Lastly, my main objection to some of the changes recommended is that Turbine loves to do surgery with an axe. IMO, any change to xp would equate to Turbine making the base xp of every quest 200 xp. I am all for the idea Chai and others have, but implementation scares me.

[xberto]

...at least for all HEROIC content.
PUGing is now becoming virtually impossible for first life characters. Run elite and put a BB in your lfm. You'll get a pug group. Just because your a first lifer, doesn't mean you can't run elite. Let the ubers lead the charge.