Are you ever stopping the power creep?

[Ellihor]

I had the expectation that the power creep would reduce a lot with the cap sitting at 30. But that's just not the case! Update after update you keep putting more and more stats and higher bonuses on new items, and it all continues with U32. Just see the cancer all those quality and insightful bonuses became: they keep getting higher and higher, more and more things that stack.

Look at U30: a bunch of super-powerful ml 28 quest items that are better than most of the lv 28 raid items, and the only reason why is that they're newer! If those items were raid items I'm sure people would run the raids that drops them until their eyes bleed.

You know that it is this kind of desing that is making it hard to balance your game right? Why not just stop it? Do different things, not bigger of the same. Ok, some power increase is fine, but not that fast!

[LagMonsterrrrrr]

/popcorn

[Whitehairguy]

How else are they supposed to sell content?
They don't have the man power to create quality content anymore (sorry), so they have to give more powerful carrots for people to buy.

[BigErkyKid]

I had the expectation that the power creep would reduce a lot with the cap sitting at 30. ...

You know that it is this kind of desing that is making it hard to balance your game right? Why not just stop it? Do different things, not bigger of the same. Ok, some power increase is fine, but not that fast!

This so much. The current level of power trivialized content below legendary. But how much legendary is there?

I wouldn't say DoJ EE is trivial, but if the items are worthless, who will run it?

You cannot invalidate previous content so quickly!! What is the "grand design" for end game that you have, turbine folks?

[Axeyu]

The itemization has really lost it's way. It started with U23 and epic necro, they tacked on every enchantment they could come up with on the items. The continuous ramping up of the insightful and quality is making it even worse.
With this direction and design it's impossible to keep old gear relevant.

If all lvl 28+ gear had similar numbers and every piece of gear did not have 5+ different enchantments it would be far easier to keep old content relevant and played.

[HastyPudding]

I'm inclined to agree. I'd like to see more variety and less power creep with each update. If I'm on a cleric and I see a nice +4 quality wisdom item with some turn undead thing I'll think 'hey that's nice for a cleric, I want that'. I then see 10 other items all suitable for a cleric, BUT they're all the same level of power, just different stats and enhancements on them for different builds and situations.

What happened to interesting things like the lantern ring or the hide of the fallen? We need more unique items and fewer 'this enhancement and this enhancement and this enhancement' items.

[Pnumbra]

OP, don't let it get to you. DDO is beyond silly, just enjoy what you can. They oversaturated the game, forgot how to build good content, so now we have epic grind fest. I am not complaining, in fact, I am having fun enjoying the "low bar" content. Have you ever considered this is their strategy?

[morkahn82]

When can we expect +8 tomes in store? Can't await.

[Blastyswa]

I had the expectation that the power creep would reduce a lot with the cap sitting at 30. But that's just not the case! Update after update you keep putting more and more stats and higher bonuses on new items, and it all continues with U32. Just see the cancer all those quality and insightful bonuses became: they keep getting higher and higher, more and more things that stack.

Look at U30: a bunch of super-powerful ml 28 quest items that are better than most of the lv 28 raid items, and the only reason why is that they're newer! If those items were raid items I'm sure people would run the raids that drops them until their eyes bleed.

You know that it is this kind of desing that is making it hard to balance your game right? Why not just stop it? Do different things, not bigger of the same. Ok, some power increase is fine, but not that fast!

Agreed. The oldest item I use on any of my builds is Lantern Ring because of it's unique ability. Every other piece of gear I use is necro or higher. It'd be very nice if some gear was kept relevant; the most obvious example of how bad this is to me was Epic/Mythic Seraphim-Halcyonia-Pansophic Circlet. Seraphim is basically inferior to Halcyonia in almost every way, and Pansophic Circlet is mostly superior to Halcyonia. There's plenty of other examples of each update invalidating the last updates items, that's just my favorite one.

[nokowi]

I don't mind power creep through items if most of those items are at max level. +2 stat and +2 damage (substitute +4 or +6 if you want) in a year amounts to almost nothing on a real build. (a few % dps)

Making common random gen better than raid gear invalidates items (but not XP) from old content. I don't care if someone has a 0.0001% chance of finding random loot better than raid gear, as both of these can exists at the same time with low rates of drop.

Buffing classes to oblivion causes the type of power creep that invalidates all old content.

Most importantly, older content needs to be adjusted (made more difficult) with the type of power creep from class passes. If this happens to push people out of elite, I don't care what you do with bravery bonus to allow people to be comfortable playing hard/normal, as long as content can match the power level of players.

Now that devs have spent 3 years redoing all the passes, they will need to spend time make the content they invalidated useful again. If they aren't willing to do this (and they probably are not), they should think about why they spent 3 years buffing each class so much. We had only a handful of builds that were out of balance pre-class pass. It seems so much simpler to adjust the ones that were unbalanced. Most of these old builds were broken by the class passes anyway.

There are negatives to class homogenization that has occurred, and many of them are related to trying to now add back challenge in a way that is fun for players.

[Axeyu]

Buffing classes to oblivion causes the type of power creep that invalidates all old content.

Most importantly, older content needs to be adjusted (made more difficult) with the type of power creep from class passes. If this happens to push people out of elite, I don't care what you do with bravery bonus to allow people to be comfortable playing hard/normal, as long as content can match the power level of players.

It wont matter that the quests are harder if the loot is still irrelevant.

Power creep in class power does not invalidate content in nearly the same way as power creep in gear. Loot is the determinate factor and people will keep running easy quests and loot runs as long as the loot is relevant. I bet no one has ever thought "I wont get that item upgrade because the quest is not challenging enough".
Example: Bloodstone runs. It was very easy yet it was a very popular loot run for many years. The only reason it stopped is because the item became invalidated.

[nokowi]

It wont matter that the quests are harder if the loot is still irrelevant.

Power creep in class power does not invalidate content in nearly the same way as power creep in gear. Loot is the determinate factor and people will keep running easy quests and loot runs as long as the loot is relevant. I bet no one has ever thought "I wont get that item upgrade because the quest is not challenging enough".
Example: Bloodstone runs. It was very easy yet it was a very popular loot run for many years. The only reason it stopped is because the item became invalidated.

Each of us have different interests. There are those motivated by enjoying running content, which is related to having some level of interest/interaction in what is happening on your screen. Content difficulty increases engagement.

I agree items are definitely important, and I will have no problem if you argue more important. Unfortunately, Dev's have shown little interest in updating old items, which shows that the class passes were probably not well thought out in terms of what will be required to maintain player interest.

[Ellihor]

Agreed. The oldest item I use on any of my builds is Lantern Ring because of it's unique ability. Every other piece of gear I use is necro or higher. It'd be very nice if some gear was kept relevant; the most obvious example of how bad this is to me was Epic/Mythic Seraphim-Halcyonia-Pansophic Circlet. Seraphim is basically inferior to Halcyonia in almost every way, and Pansophic Circlet is mostly superior to Halcyonia. There's plenty of other examples of each update invalidating the last updates items, that's just my favorite one.

Pansophic circlet is the most ******** item of the game

[Marshal_Lannes]

Pansophic circlet is the most ******** item of the game

Its a shocking example of way too much power on an item I agree. Still, we have discussed this and voiced our issues. Each update brings loot that dwarfs the loot that came before it. It is pretty clear which direction they are taking.

[morkahn82]

Items of equal level should have about the same power. raid items can be slightly more powerful. Regardless of release day of the item. That said, stop the power creep. The game is pretty bad if only the last two adventure packs are played. ddo has a lot more to offer.

I can only speak for myself, but I bought all adventure packs/expansions the last 7 years, I will buy all adventure packs/expansions the next 7 years, regardless of power creep or not. From a gamers perspective it would be cooler if items of same level can compete against each other and players will play the older content too and are not forced to run the same 3 quests over and over again. That could revitalize lfm.

That said, increase ability tome drop rate to pre-2012 niveau, where it was considered ok. That said, remove p2w. ;)

[Grandern_Marn]

DDO is an MMORPG, power creep is a part of the deal. I don't mind it as long as it's well managed. It's cool that there are still some paradigm loot pulls that are not completely outstripped by new gear. I did a Xoriat Cipher run last night and a lot of people had their fingers crossed for the Planar Guard. It's not often that you have that kind of in game tension for an item that's so old.

It's nice to have one or two sweet items come up in a new update. It's good to see LFMs up to farm items out. This needs balance though as too many sweet items that are too OP will mess with older loot and take the fun out of the game - I'm sure the devs are fully aware of this, it's a part of their job.

I appreciate No Worries posting the new loot for the upcoming update - if you have something to say about creep happening right now, go to that thread and explain in concrete terms how a certain item will make another obsolete.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

Power creep NEVER STOPS.
EVER.

I've already decided I am not spending another dime on this game. It's definitely jumped the shark. Still enjoyable. But not nearly as much as it used ot be.

[Enoach]

The nature of the MMO is that power creep will happen. The only control there ever was at the beginning was the rate.

In my opinion RND gear should slowly get better by level, Raid gear should simply be better through consolidation or customization.


-------------
Now as for stacking abilities (and this is just my opinion)

Enchantment Should have stopped at +5 bonus
Insightful should stop at +4 bonus
Exceptional Should stop at +3 bonus
Quality should stop at +2 bonus

Doing this would have allowed spell buffs to continue to be an option, it would have also prevented having to pump up the mobs for HP that also made their saves go out of whack.

[Axeyu]

DDO is an MMORPG, power creep is a part of the deal. I don't mind it as long as it's well managed. It's cool that there are still some paradigm loot pulls that are not completely outstripped by new gear. I did a Xoriat Cipher run last night and a lot of people had their fingers crossed for the Planar Guard. It's not often that you have that kind of in game tension for an item that's so old.

It's nice to have one or two sweet items come up in a new update. It's good to see LFMs up to farm items out. This needs balance though as too many sweet items that are too OP will mess with older loot and take the fun out of the game - I'm sure the devs are fully aware of this, it's a part of their job.

I appreciate No Worries posting the new loot for the upcoming update - if you have something to say about creep happening right now, go to that thread and explain in concrete terms how a certain item will make another obsolete.

All evidence points to the devs being completely unaware that it takes the fun out of the game. They are consistently replacing most of the previous gear and every time people explains in concrete terms how it's happening. The devs simply do not care because they don't see it as a negative.

[Sarzor]

I like being powerful. Sure, challenge is fun, but I love going through korthos on a multi-TR. I feel like a living god.

[BigErkyKid]

All evidence points to the devs being completely unaware that it takes the fun out of the game. They are consistently replacing most of the previous gear and every time people explains in concrete terms how it's happening. The devs simply do not care because they don't see it as a negative.

I am starting to consider that maybe for some core of grinders it isn't bad.

I have argued elsewhere that the fanbase of the game is eroding really fast (fewer build discussions, declining population of DDO superstars, etc.). However, the number of players / logins has stabilized at a low but stable number.

What are people doing in game? I don't know, I guess that TRing constantly. However, I do not see evidence, in logins at least, that people stop playing after getting the needed gear from an update. Either way, both modes are a pure strict grind in the purest sense (little challenge, much repetition).

So maybe DDO is surviving in a semi comatose state from milking grinders. Maybe that's why the devs have consistently ignored our pleas to get a solid end game. It is cheaper to rump up power creep to feed into the grinder's goals.

Maybe, and only maybe, what we are seeing is not oversight but a deliberate attempt to bring this game to a semi-mantainance mode. A small crew, cheap servers, low quality content that is of sufficient quality to please those who play a grinding game. Keep providing carrots for people to chase, at a low price (updates go untested, content is rushed, buggy, and generally poor quality), and ignore those highlighting how this provides little to no stability and sense of a rich varied gameplay.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

Look on the bright side.......you know not to waste time farming for gear since it will be obsolete by the next update!

[ccd1977]

I had the expectation that the power creep would reduce a lot with the cap sitting at 30. But that's just not the case! Update after update you keep putting more and more stats and higher bonuses on new items, and it all continues with U32. Just see the cancer all those quality and insightful bonuses became: they keep getting higher and higher, more and more things that stack.Look at U30: a bunch of super-powerful ml 28 quest items that are better than most of the lv 28 raid items, and the only reason why is that they're newer! If those items were raid items I'm sure people would run the raids that drops them until their eyes bleed.You know that it is this kind of desing that is making it hard to balance your game right? Why not just stop it? Do different things, not bigger of the same. Ok, some power increase is fine, but not that fast!I look at it this way. Instead of throwing out a statement based upon observation, why not ask a better question that could actually be more aligned with the dev group? Could it be that they are slowly in the process or improving the game by adding LE content, increasing the difficulty on quests, providing a new generation of gear all with a vision to prepare you for whats coming? I mean why keep old content if the experience can be made better with different new content. Regardless if I am getting RECONSTRUCT on light armor or not. Ever tho old gear is still good they are not out dated. Instead, they offer enhancements that would fit another situation. just my $.02

[morkahn82]

Look on the bright side.......you know not to waste time farming for gear since it will be obsolete by the next update!

With that attitude and tomes and stones in store, you can even stop playing (besides strolling through the dungeons for fun).

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

With that attitude and tomes and stones in store, you can even stop playing (besides strolling through the dungeons for fun).

Yeah. I think a lot of people have done just that!

[changelingamuck]

I actually just made some similar points in the thread about the prospective named items for U32 in regards to the ML 8 trinket having True Seeing on it.

I would suggest commenting there about the issue so that the developers can see how some of us feel about a specific example.

Here is a link (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/476542-U32-Named-Loot-First-Look?p=5841172&viewfull=1#post5841172) to that thread starting with the post that I just made about the trinket.

[Paleus]

With that attitude and tomes and stones in store, you can even stop playing (besides strolling through the dungeons for fun).

So I see you got the memo from DDO Marketing finally.

If its not something sold in the DDO store, expect it's value to be overwritten next update. If it's something sold in the DDO store, expect the game mechanics to be constantly tweaked in a way to make it increasingly tedious to not buy into.

[Duana]

It was mentioned in interviews soon after the level cap was raised to 30 that future character progression would likely be through gear instead of additional levels.

The game needs to continue to be challenging. That means harder dungeons. That requires ability to acquire more power to complete said dungeons. That power comes through gear. My guess is we will continue to see gear that will consolidate complimentary effects.

That said, balancing that power curve is another issue all together.

[changelingamuck]

It was mentioned in interviews soon after the level cap was raised to 30 that future character progression would likely be through gear instead of additional levels.

Okay... except look at the newer lower level gear from the past few updates. We're looking at unprecedented power creep on items with minimum levels below level 10.

[nokowi]

Okay... except look at the newer lower level gear from the past few updates. We're looking at unprecedented power creep on items with minimum levels below level 10.

They simply messed up the random loot by making it linear with level.

+16 at level 30 --> +8 at level 15


They should have made a curve from 1-20 with a separate curve from 21-30.

[Duana]

Okay... except look at the newer lower level gear from the past few updates. We're looking at unprecedented power creep on items with minimum levels below level 10.

What? You are unhappy with that min level 1 vorpal of whatever?

In this I agree. I am not sure if that was an unintended by product of new random loot generation or if it was intentional. My guess is it was not expected, but it is "insert reason here" (impossible, too late, too expensive, ???) to go back and correct.

While I see and recognize it as messed up, it does not other me. These days, with a few exceptions, level 1-20 quests are those things I have to get through to get to the game I want to play.

[nokowi]

What? You are unhappy with that min level 1 vorpal of whatever?

In this I agree. I am not sure if that was an unintended by product of new random loot generation or if it was intentional. My guess is it was not expected, but it is "insert reason here" (impossible, too late, too expensive, ???) to go back and correct.

While I see and recognize it as messed up, it does not other me. These days, with a few exceptions, level 1-20 quests are those things I have to get through to get to the game I want to play.

Vorpal is not powerful at level 1. If you kill something in 2 hits, a 1 in 20 chance doesn't do much.

Vorpal would be powerful if a level 1 toon was running level 15 content. Unless this is happening, lets put vorpal in the "things that don't make sense" category rather than the power creep category.

[Qhualor]

Vorpal is not powerful at level 1. If you kill something in 2 hits, a 1 in 20 chance doesn't do much.

Vorpal would be powerful if a level 1 toon was running level 15 content. Unless this is happening, lets put vorpal in the "things that don't make sense" category rather than the power creep category.

I disagree. On a vorpal I often kill mobs in 1 hit in the low levels and it does happen a lot more often than 1 shotting mobs without it. In the very low levels like some Harbor quests and Korthos, a veteran/multi TR character can kill mobs in 1 or 2 shots but as you start getting to say Tangleroot and other level 4ish quests the 1-2 shotting without vorpal doesn't happen as easily. Vorpal is the only weapon to use for a melee in low levels.

[Enoach]

Vorpal is not powerful at level 1. If you kill something in 2 hits, a 1 in 20 chance doesn't do much.

Vorpal would be powerful if a level 1 toon was running level 15 content. Unless this is happening, lets put vorpal in the "things that don't make sense" category rather than the power creep category.

See this value of Vorpal/Banish/Smite/Disruption comes into play when it takes 20 or more hits to kill a mob. These abilities were meant to be equalizers of the higher DPS. Having them changed to only when under X number of HP and latter adding in the if they are over the HP threshold do Y extra damage instead has only served to make these weapons more obscured in the functions by making them a good choice for High DPS builds.

Now if you need one of these at level 1 then it is powerful for that build and situation. But this does beg the question Why? That little damage from the build, or did why they boost kobolds with more hp.


I disagree. On a vorpal I often kill mobs in 1 hit in the low levels and it does happen a lot more often than 1 shotting mobs without it. In the very low levels like some Harbor quests and Korthos, a veteran/multi TR character can kill mobs in 1 or 2 shots but as you start getting to say Tangleroot and other level 4ish quests the 1-2 shotting without vorpal doesn't happen as easily. Vorpal is the only weapon to use for a melee in low levels.

I agree to a point. I don't think it is the only weapon a melee should use, I think it is dependent on what type of melee you are... High DPS should be using something else, Mid and low DPS melee (I know people have a hard time thinking Melee and Not DPS focus but it does work) this is a good tool.

The problem is that while the extra damage for Vorpal Hit (+100 or better if not under threshold plus the .5(W)) has made vorpal an option for Boss fights I think it went too far by making it a "best" DPS weapon for DPS focused Melee. The point of these effects was to equalize DPS by adding in that 5% chance that this swing would end the fight.

To make this clear I think adding a Threshold was the worst mistake Turbine did with the Vorpal/Banish/Smite/Disruption weapons. It has only lead to them adding +.5(W) and Extra Damage when above the threshold making a utility weapon a potentially good Boss weapon.

[changelingamuck]

While I see and recognize it as messed up, it does not other me. These days, with a few exceptions, level 1-20 quests are those things I have to get through to get to the game I want to play.

I can understand that. There are still newer players to consider though. They're experiencing those levels for the first time. And if they find that they can breezily float through quests on their first character while half-asleep, they're much more likely to uninstall the game. And that affects us older players because the more newer players who uninstall the game, the faster we get to maintenance mode.

[Vint]

How else are they supposed to sell content?

I agree with this to an extent. Kind of along the lines of why would someone buy a certain iconic if it was no better than the F2P races or iconics that other people own.



Its a shocking example of way too much power on an item I agree. Still, we have discussed this and voiced our issues. Each update brings loot that dwarfs the loot that came before it. It is pretty clear which direction they are taking.


This is why I do not run end game content anymore. In the past I would spend hours farming for the perfect slot gear for my many toons, and then I realized it was not worth it because the loot would be irrelevant by the next update. I'll just keep two boxing heroic content unlocking tp for my second account until Turbine shows that they will not make new loot obsolete within 3 months.

[Taimasan]

Power Creep is the regular pattern of any MMO. But when you lack population numbers with no diversity it makes business sense to cater to one demographic. The power users. At least this is IMHO.

[Chai]

It wont matter that the quests are harder if the loot is still irrelevant.

Power creep in class power does not invalidate content in nearly the same way as power creep in gear. Loot is the determinate factor and people will keep running easy quests and loot runs as long as the loot is relevant. I bet no one has ever thought "I wont get that item upgrade because the quest is not challenging enough".
Example: Bloodstone runs. It was very easy yet it was a very popular loot run for many years. The only reason it stopped is because the item became invalidated.

XP is the reason content will always stay valid, while loot will continue to be invalidated more and more quickly. If this were any other MMO, where TRing doesn't exist, 95% of the content would never be touched either. When some of us tried to keep content integrity intact by suggesting revamping the difficulty settings, we were shouted down by the many MANY more folks who lobbied to keep it easier so they could get their favor flying solo on autopilot.

Bolded: Ive been posting that DDO is a game that does not require TRs, ETR, and best in slot gear to succeed in the highest level content on highest difficulty setting for years now. Its not that people wont try to get the loot, but they sure do understand that they don't need it to complete quests.

Example: My friend came back after 5 years, ran EE stuff solo, and 10 days later was geared out for this era. What other MMO does that happen in? He quit in 2011 after getting all his chronoscope gear, epic claw set, and eSOS. Came back and soloed EE and LE quests and went from 20-30 while gearing himself out in BiS gear from this era in 10 days. Made up for 5 year absence in 10 days gear wise. How? Because ethe vast majority of the character power is not in the gear. Its in the characters themselves. This entire "loot relevance" is an illusion in DDO, especially now that random loot is as good as it is.

[morkahn82]

Power Creep is the regular pattern of any MMO. But when you lack population numbers with no diversity it makes business sense to cater to one demographic. The power users. At least this is IMHO.

IMHO catering the power users is responsible for the lack of population on the servers.

[charles13f]

OP, don't let it get to you. DDO is beyond silly, just enjoy what you can. They oversaturated the game, forgot how to build good content, so now we have epic grind fest. I am not complaining, in fact, I am having fun enjoying the "low bar" content. Have you ever considered this is their strategy?

Did these fools consider WHY World of Warcraft has been on a downward spiral? Why many similar games are going/gone that way? it's due to **** poor planning that promotes **** poor performance. us old time vets have been telling them for years...but who cares? the power muncher crew looks at the new +8 wounding, unholy, purple vibrating club of fantasy destruction that in in the next update, then a lot of people grind for that and now they whine again that I DONT HAVE ENUGHT POWER.... MAKE ME A NEW ITEM!!! and like a good little henchmen the minions at corporate go $$$ make it and to hell with any challenge or the basis of the game, thus ruining the experience and causing new players to realize it will take forever for them to catch up.... and never play the game...

[Artrish]

Look at U30: a bunch of super-powerful ml 28 quest items that are better than most of the lv 28 raid items, and the only reason why is that they're newer!

It just looks like they are following a template that they designed in the changeover from heroic to epic. They seem to be building a base of level 28-35 level items and quest in preparation to raise level caps later on in the games life and provide new content at that point. They already have it marked as legendary, just filling it out a little more, adding legendary past lives and so on and then the volume of time to put in a character to gain everything will increase heaps. The template will be more refined then they can add level 40-50 and so on.

At the moment you have the 12 or so heroic class combinations, throw in 12 destinies to mix in that gives a huge amount of character design types. Chuck in a legendary mix and that will multiply combination by the number of legendary trees available.

Business have a rolling theme to provide new things to purchase, which need to be seen as better then the old so they can charge new pricing and cater design work to the new workers they have available or new systems that make it quicker to roll content out. It will all be in their plan somewhere. Thankfully they choose to keep in the heroic scene, so we have the choice to opt out of anything new and just play the old if you want to. The playerbase will grow and with more financing and more players, more options and opportunities will present itself.

This game has tonnes of options and the playerbase is nearly large enough that you can choose your own way of playing and create a gathering of lilke minded people to play along. Many humans want the latest and greatest, so the crowds will be in that direction of anything new though there are enough people around to create the experience you want to and the more they expand this universe and playerbase, the more opportunities will arise to participate.

[Wizza]

Look on the bright side.......you know not to waste time farming for gear since it will be obsolete by the next update!

That's exactly what my friend and I did, also because they killed trading. Which led us to log in way, way less.

[SirValentine]

DDO is an MMORPG, power creep is a part of the deal. I don't mind it as long as it's well managed.

Power Creep is the regular pattern of any MMO.

Yes, power creep is expected, but needs to be well-managed. I feel DDO has not manged it well, to the point where it isn't power "creep" but power "leap". "Creep" should be a heck of a lot slower and more gradual.




Look on the bright side.......you know not to waste time farming for gear since it will be obsolete by the next update!

With that attitude...you can even stop playing

And that's the primary (though not only) reason why I did: they invalidated most of the gear I'd been collecting over years of playing.



We're looking at unprecedented power creep on items with minimum levels below level 10.

Exactly. Raising the top end, while it can be a problem, is generally less of a problem than for lower-level gear.

The random loot overhaul is one of the worst of quite a bunch of bad moves they've made in the last few years. Though I expect that, 1) they won't admit it, and 2) even if they did, now that it's been in place for a while, they'd never roll it back.





Most importantly, older content needs to be adjusted (made more difficult) with the type of power creep from class passes. If this happens to push people out of elite, I don't care what you do with bravery bonus to allow people to be comfortable playing hard/normal, as long as content can match the power level of players.


Not sure this is the thread for that discussion, but I fully agree. Can you imagine if running Normal was normal, and running Hard really was hard? If only a few elites ran Elite?

However, it won't happen. People have become so Elite-entitled, and didn't the devs already say they won't change that?

[Vanhooger]

I still love ddo but at this point the game is so easy for a veteran that I have fun only running shroud elite, and anyway it still too easy if you run with people that know what they're doing.
Lost interest in TR as I did grind too much xp last couple of years. I love trying new build but since I'm sick of xp, I don't do that either. Logging ddo way less the I used to. Playing more overwatch :)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I am starting to consider that maybe for some core of grinders it isn't bad.

I have argued elsewhere that the fanbase of the game is eroding really fast (fewer build discussions, declining population of DDO superstars, etc.). However, the number of players / logins has stabilized at a low but stable number.

What are people doing in game? I don't know, I guess that TRing constantly. However, I do not see evidence, in logins at least, that people stop playing after getting the needed gear from an update. Either way, both modes are a pure strict grind in the purest sense (little challenge, much repetition).

So maybe DDO is surviving in a semi comatose state from milking grinders. Maybe that's why the devs have consistently ignored our pleas to get a solid end game. It is cheaper to rump up power creep to feed into the grinder's goals.

Maybe, and only maybe, what we are seeing is not oversight but a deliberate attempt to bring this game to a semi-mantainance mode. A small crew, cheap servers, low quality content that is of sufficient quality to please those who play a grinding game. Keep providing carrots for people to chase, at a low price (updates go untested, content is rushed, buggy, and generally poor quality), and ignore those highlighting how this provides little to no stability and sense of a rich varied gameplay.


I have joined a chat channel and a regular group of people in the same guild.
if they are not on, I join PUG LFMs.

I am mostly working on trying to get one character to completionist.
If my friends on on, I run other toons, and any quest for fun.
If I am PUGing, I try to run for fun, but all the LFMs are for th esame high xp/minute quests.

I have partially fallen into the trap of joining even though I know I wil be barely getting into the quest by the time they finish....just so I too can get some good xp/minute. But I still tend to get bored quick with rushing groups and drop after a couple quests.

I also solo a lot now days. But usually lower level quests for minor XP and favor.

I've been playing for over ten years now. Still love this game.
My favorite days are the first day of a new mod, when I can do quests with people who know nothing about them, and actually feel like an adventurer again.

I really wish Turbine would stop making us so super powerful.....compared to the monsters anyway.
It is really boring, even with my friends, when people click one button and clear a room full of monsters.

We run everything on elite. Some of us struggle a little, but overall we find them easy.
We all have alts, and some of our alts struggle more than others, but I still think over all elite is easy for us.
We do have occasional wipes, but that doesn't really demonstrate the difficulty of dungeons compared to our ever increasing power.

Turbine has made newer dungeons more difficult. But they make us even more powerful with every mod, so most players do not even realize that the new quests are more difficult.

While I really hate the lightning speed that people effortlessly blast through dungeons in, it usually makes total sense, since the average toon is so powerful there is no need at all to slow down the slightest.

The power gap between old and new players is increasing at an alarming rate.
But it is also easier these days for new players to gain power quickly.
Really the only thing holding new players bak a little is just learning the game. Once they know what gear they want, a lot of it is easy to acquire.
This is not really a bad thing IMO though.

I'm not even sure what I woud suggest the devs do (or not do) right now.
Why did they add greater than +5 tomes?
Why did they add greater than +5 weapons?
Greater than +6 stat items?

Why did they nerf some monsters? (I know why, I just disagree with the decision)
(actually, I know why for all of these questions....but giving people what they ask for is seldom smart management.)

Why did they give players abilities to overcome inherent weaknesses of their class or combat style/weapon choices?

This stuff adds up!
One little change, like allowing ranged guys to do bludgeon damage....has a huge impact on character power.
We already have balance issues with spell DCs.... and what do they do? Add +12 stat items? (maye even higher)
I do not understand why they do not see that certain things should be capped. Certain things should be held down. Certain things should not stack.

Warlocks?
Fun, I admit. But the basics of the class is way over powered IMO.
(although not as OP compared to other possible buids as mant people think they are......but still....)

[Ellihor]

It was mentioned in interviews soon after the level cap was raised to 30 that future character progression would likely be through gear instead of additional levels.

The game needs to continue to be challenging. That means harder dungeons. That requires ability to acquire more power to complete said dungeons. That power comes through gear. My guess is we will continue to see gear that will consolidate complimentary effects.

That said, balancing that power curve is another issue all together.

As I said in the OP, of course the power creep has to continue, but it has to be 20 times slower. The cap sitted at 20 for YEARS and we on all those years there was less power creep than in the last 3 updates. Hell, maybe there was less power creep than in U31 alone. If you need all that power creep to keep people playing, than you may explain why the population was healthier when the cap was 20 than now?

[Marshal_Lannes]

As I said in the OP, of course the power creep has to continue, but it has to be 20 times slower. The cap sitted at 20 for YEARS and we on all those years there was less power creep than in the last 3 updates. Hell, maybe there was less power creep than in U31 alone. If you need all that power creep to keep people playing, than you may explain why the population was healthier when the cap was 20 than now?

Power creep in itself is going to happen, as many have pointed out in this tread, but does it have to happen every update? I would like to see some, not all, items that take a few months to build out and have a life span of a year or more. Again, this doesn't have to be all items, but I would like to see at least some that fall into this category. We just had Legendary Boundless come out and it was literally replaced one update later by Legendary Pansophic. There are now hundreds (maybe approaching over a thousand) epic named items in the game and 95% of them are irrelevant to most builds. The thrill of getting a great item has been severely dampened by the knowledge that this item will very shortly be replaced. DDO has now come full circle and gone from the difficult challenge of making a Sx3 item to virtually giving away high power epic items. Surely a balance can be found in the middle?

[HAL]

I seriously feel bad for all those who fell into the TR & gear grinding trap. I'm so glad that I hate grinding so I'm not in the same boat. I have never understood why people want to grind to gain power instead of just playing the game. From my POV they spent a bunch of time grinding (= not enjoyable to me) and now are not enjoying the fruit of all that grinding. Seems like a lose / lose situation and its not just the case in DDO but in any MMO.

[Astoroth]

I had the expectation that the power creep would reduce a lot with the cap sitting at 30. But that's just not the case! Update after update you keep putting more and more stats and higher bonuses on new items, and it all continues with U32. Just see the cancer all those quality and insightful bonuses became: they keep getting higher and higher, more and more things that stack.

Look at U30: a bunch of super-powerful ml 28 quest items that are better than most of the lv 28 raid items, and the only reason why is that they're newer! If those items were raid items I'm sure people would run the raids that drops them until their eyes bleed.


I am pretty sure they've been told to make each new expansion have 'must have loot', to drive everyone to buy it. It makes sense from a monetization point of view. Where it fails is that you don't keep a raiding scene alive to motivate people to repeat raids for rare items, if those old items are obsolete. So while it might make money for them short term, I think it will lose more players long term. They need to update all the old raid gear to give players options and goals, even if they have to farm those items again to have the new stats. If you have no raid scene then you may as well play a single player game.


I seriously feel bad for all those who fell into the TR & gear grinding trap. I'm so glad that I hate grinding so I'm not in the same boat. I have never understood why people want to grind to gain power instead of just playing the game. From my POV they spent a bunch of time grinding (= not enjoyable to me) and now are not enjoying the fruit of all that grinding. Seems like a lose / lose situation and its not just the case in DDO but in any MMO.

Well I think the guys that just play one character are the ones who are more likely to show up here complaining the game is too easy, they are bored and eventually leave. The gear and tr hamster wheel is something for everyone though.

[Pnumbra]

Why did they give players abilities to overcome inherent weaknesses of their class or combat style/weapon choices?


The million dollar question.

[Gremmlynn]

They simply messed up the random loot by making it linear with level.

+16 at level 30 --> +8 at level 15


They should have made a curve from 1-20 with a separate curve from 21-30.They didn't have the resources to do what they did right. Why do you think they could have pulled off something even more complex?

[Gremmlynn]

As I said in the OP, of course the power creep has to continue, but it has to be 20 times slower. The cap sitted at 20 for YEARS and we on all those years there was less power creep than in the last 3 updates. Hell, maybe there was less power creep than in U31 alone. If you need all that power creep to keep people playing, than you may explain why the population was healthier when the cap was 20 than now?You have that backwards. They need all that power creep because the population isn't as healthy as it was then. If the population is X times larger, it has X times as many people buying things they only have to develop once. Smaller pop means needing to sell more things to to those fewer people to keep the game worthwhile to maintain.

[Chai]

They didn't have the resources to do what they did right. Why do you think they could have pulled off something even more complex?

Typing a different number into the field doesn't require more resources.

[Chai]

You have that backwards. They need all that power creep because the population isn't as healthy as it was then. If the population is X times larger, it has X times as many people buying things they only have to develop once. Smaller pop means needing to sell more things to to those fewer people to keep the game worthwhile to maintain.

Power creep doesn't keep people around. An engaging game might keep them around however. Also, the power creep is to the point where we do not need anything they can sell us to beat new content. I am playing two characters in the current LE quests which are geared in BiS gear from five updates ago and completing quests without issue. Theres no character power they can sell me or anyone else at this point that will speed this process up, not that they can keep up with how fast people are defeating the content anyhow.

[Taimasan]

Power creep doesn't keep people around. An engaging game might keep them around however. Also, the power creep is to the point where we do not need anything they can sell us to beat new content. I am playing two characters in the current LE quests which are geared in BiS gear from five updates ago and completing quests without issue. Theres no character power they can sell me or anyone else at this point that will speed this process up, not that they can keep up with how fast people are defeating the content anyhow.


I agree with this, all the past lives, tomes, and theory crafting I have done with my builds was pure hubris on my part. Anyone can get to 30 go to cap and run Legendary Normie and Hard with random lootgen these days.

Gone are the days where to even step foot into ToD. You had to grind for the mats for the boots. Make the run. Then do the raid.

[erethizon]

Look on the bright side.......you know not to waste time farming for gear since it will be obsolete by the next update!

This is exactly my attitude. Unless an item has a low minimum level (i.e. is useful as gear for a TR) I simply don't bother taking any time to get it. Every time they release a new pack that has both heroic and epic gear I look at the heroic gear and totally ignore the epic gear because I know the epic gear will be too high in level to be worth keeping. If they want loot to keep me motivated they need to spend more time thinking about lowering the minimum levels. If I can't use it next life there is no point acquiring it this life.

[azrael4h]

They are consistently replacing most of the previous gear and every time people explains in concrete terms how it's happening. The devs simply do not care because they don't see it as a negative.

That's actually how "endgame" focused MMOs do business. Every year or two there's an expansion, and much if not all of the prior content and gear is made irrelevant. In some games, it's gotten so bad in that respect that they've begun selling L85 characters, because someone starting from L1 would take so long to get to the "endgame". In one, they actually redid the numbers because they had grown to ridiculous proportions. DDO is now an "Endgame" focused MMO. The only content worth running for loot is the last few updates, with very few exceptions. 90% or more of the game's content is now wasted and worthless. Most of what remains valuable is a relic of the TR system and some unique effects on old loot that still doesn't have replacements. Enjoy.

[Natashaelle]

I had the expectation that the power creep would reduce a lot with the cap sitting at 30.

They've answered the question a few times over the years.

Short answer -- No.

Power creep will never stop, because it's the only realistic way to ensure at least a vague semblance of game balance.

[nokowi]

They didn't have the resources to do what they did right. Why do you think they could have pulled off something even more complex?

It would take negligible resource to alter the loot level curve.

They tend to not think past the next update, which causes them to get less done per year. Think of all the time spent on class passes...

In their defense, they did think past 1 update for random gear, they just messed up the implementation by invalidating level 8-24 gear with a linear curve.

[changelingamuck]

They've answered the question a few times over the years.

Short answer -- No.

Power creep will never stop, because it's the only realistic way to ensure at least a vague semblance of game balance.

I don't understand why you would say this. Power creep, by definition, negatively affects the balance of character power vs. content difficulty.

In order to restore that balance after power creep has gotten out-of-hand, development time needs to be spent re-balancing the difficulty of content (e.g. adding champions to the game). And that re-balancing of content is difficult if not impossible to monetize since it's basically maintenance work; so it doesn't produce revenue for the company.

Some power creep is to be expected; but it's in Turbine's best interest to keep it under control and make sure that it only increases in small increments with each update/patch. This is so they aren't wasting non-monetized development time by repeatedly re-balancing content difficulty for zero profit every time the game becomes too easy for our characters (e.g. the possible future profitless waste of development time referred to as "reaper mode").

The only other alternative is nerfing the power creep--in which case, expect the forums to explode with people throwing fits about their shinies losing their luster. Of course, those players don't realize that, for example, if they prevent the developers from reducing the DPS of their over-powered characters by 5%, the developers will need to increase the defenses of enemies by 5%--which produces the same result. The insanity of people who clamor for increased difficulty and throw fits about nerfs is just ridiculous because they both are solutions to the same problem of difficulty imbalance, just coming from different directions.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

I don't understand why you would say this. Power creep, by definition, negatively affects the balance of character power vs. content difficulty.

In order to restore that balance after power creep has gotten out-of-hand, development time needs to be spent re-balancing the difficulty of content (e.g. adding champions to the game). And that re-balancing of content is difficult if not impossible to monetize since it's basically maintenance work; so it doesn't produce revenue for the company.

Some power creep is to be expected; but it's in Turbine's best interest to keep it under control and make sure that it only increases in small increments with each update/patch. This is so they aren't wasting non-monetized development time by repeatedly re-balancing content difficulty for zero profit every time the game becomes too easy for our characters (e.g. the possible future profitless waste of development time referred to as "reaper mode").

The only other alternative is nerfing the power creep--in which case, expect the forums to explode with people throwing fits about their shinies losing their luster. Of course, those players don't realize that, for example, if they prevent the developers from reducing the DPS of their over-powered characters by 5%, the developers will need to increase the defenses of enemies by 5%--which produces the same result. The insanity of people who clamor for increased difficulty and throw fits about nerfs is just ridiculous because they both are solutions to the same problem of difficulty imbalance, just coming from different directions.

You forgot the other alternative.......monty haul power creep hoping it will keep people subbed and sell the new packs and to hell with rebalancing the older content.

That seems like the path they have chosen.

[HAL]

The only content worth running for loot is the last few updates, with very few exceptions. 90% or more of the game's content is now wasted and worthless. Most of what remains valuable is a relic of the TR system and some unique effects on old loot that still doesn't have replacements. Enjoy.

Unless you don't play that way. Since none of my characters are on the "Path of Power" (grinding XP for TRs, grinding for gear, grinding for EDs, etc.), power creep doesn't affect me much. I still enjoy the content and don't find it worthless.

The worst part about power creep from my POV is the widening gap between those on the "Path of Power" and those who are not / new players.

[Gremmlynn]

Typing a different number into the field doesn't require more resources.Setting up a variable scale would. The whole point, from what I understand, of the latest loot pass was to eliminate having to type a lot of numbers into fields. Just set a scale and let the game use that to determine values based on ML. Stat gear seems to be something like: ML/2 (+/-) Ml/10 with some rounding factors thrown in, for example. Making it different for different ML ranges would add a lot of work.

[Gremmlynn]

Power creep doesn't keep people around. An engaging game might keep them around however. Also, the power creep is to the point where we do not need anything they can sell us to beat new content. I am playing two characters in the current LE quests which are geared in BiS gear from five updates ago and completing quests without issue. Theres no character power they can sell me or anyone else at this point that will speed this process up, not that they can keep up with how fast people are defeating the content anyhow.There's nothing they can sell me either. The thing is, we are the anomalies. If we weren't the game likely wouldn't still be around.

[Ellihor]

There's nothing they can sell me either. The thing is, we are the anomalies. If we weren't the game likely wouldn't still be around.

The maximum stat was 7 on epic items for years when the cap was 20, and people didn't quit the game because they had nothing to do. Same with tomes (4), and exceptional (1/2). You are wrong, people like us are not the exception, it is people who like the power creep who are the exception.

[morrok73]

Just logged on after a 5+year break, played the game as a newbie(lvl 1 Korthos). I had a ML2 vorpal of draining Kopesh drop from newb island, out of a barrel. ***!!!! My old PD guild is no longer on, last post on their forums was over 2 years ago. Congrats Standing Stone Games , you have done the impossible , you have made DnD not fun to play. Stop calling it Dungeons and Dragons, call it what it is.... the shameless ,loosely based on a great game, money grab that it is. You should be ashamed of yourselves for denigrating the memory of those who created the game. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson are rolling in their graves at this abomination.

[vryxnr]

You should be ashamed of yourselves for denigrating the memory of those who created the game. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson are rolling in their graves at this abomination.

I highly doubt that.

Both of them have directly participated in the creation of DDO with their voices for various area. Their memory is also being honored: they have memorial shrines in game you can visit! (plus a pair of items that are still valuable you can get that further tip the hat to them). Furthermore, any claim that deviation form the rules, or 'house rules' as it were, causing them to get upset is ludicrous. The following quote is theirs.


As with any other set of miniatures rules they are guidelines ... New details can be added and old "laws" altered so as to provide continually new and different situations.

Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson were both FOR house rules, adding to and changing the rules to fit the current game.

Disagree with devs (our GM's in this context) with their particular house rules all you want. That is fine. Claiming that these house rules are making Gygax and Arneson "role in their graves" is silly at best.

Now, Mr. Gygax was somewhat against power creep as well, as indicated by this quote:


The new D&D is too rule intensive. It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game. It's done away with the archetypes, focused on nothing but combat and character power, lost the group cooperative aspect, bastardized the class-based system, and resembles a comic-book superheroes game more than a fantasy RPG where a player can play any alignment desired, not just lawful good.

So in that regards, I'm sure he would have been somewhat disappointed with what DDO (a computerized offshoot of D&D) has become. Heck, he's always been somewhat against video games/computer games in general.


There is no intimacy; it’s not live. [he said of online games] It’s being translated through a computer, and your imagination is not there the same way it is when you’re actually together with a group of people. It reminds me of one time where I saw some children talking about whether they liked radio or television, and I asked one little boy why he preferred radio, and he said, "Because the pictures are so much better."


Pen-and-paper role-playing is live theater and computer games are television. People want the convenience and instant gratification of turning on the TV rather than getting dressed up and going out to see a live play. In the same way, the computer is a more immediately accessible way to play games.

But I highly doubt it's "rolling in the grave" worthy. Despite preferring PnP/tabletop/live-and-in-person games, he still contributed to DDO with his voice while alive, which I doubt he would have done if he was against it and what it was doing. Yes, things have changed since then, and while he may have shaken his head at the powercreep, rolling in his grave isa bit much imo.

Also, it doesn't take much to make D&D (any version of it) not fun to play. In PnP, the people you play with can easily make or break it for you. For digital versions, some people don't like Baldur's Gate, some could never get into Planescape:Torment, same with Icewind Dale, some hated Neverwinter Nights, others can't stand NWO, some haven't even heard of Daggerdale, others found zero joy in playing through Champions of Krynn/Death Knights of Krynn/Dark Queen of Krynn, and others facepalmed and walked away from Tower of Doom & Shadow over Mystara. Or D&D: Heroes. Or FR: Demon Stone. Or Dark Sun: Shattered Lands. Or Pool of Radiance. Or... well, you get the idea. There have been lots of video game versions of DnD, and they all have both fans and haters, so no, it's not impossible to make DnD unfun for someone.

[SiliconScout]

The power creep ended right around U14. I am being serious here, MOTU was about when the item power creep stopped entirely.

Ever since then it's been a power Zerg and as we all know Zerg doesn't slow down, ever, it only finds ways to Zerg harder.

Hell I will give you this it's saved me money. items are so inflated now that my main has mostly +3 tomes, I think 1 +4 and 1 +5 (all found), there is absolutely NO reason to buy tomes in the store anymore, even on a DC caster the +1 or +2 they provide is easily compensated for and largely irrelevant.

[Chai]

Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson were both FOR house rules, adding to and changing the rules to fit the current game.

Disagree with devs (our GM's in this context) with their particular house rules all you want. That is fine. Claiming that these house rules are making Gygax and Arneson "role in their graves" is silly at best.



House rules and power creep are two distinctly different things.


Now, Mr. Gygax was somewhat against power creep as well,

He also designed the game around forced cooperation - something the loudest in this community is staunchly against. Power creep (and specifically the level of power creep in DDO) is one of the things that erodes and eventually invalidates the need for forced cooperation. The degree of power creep in DDO necessitated installing system after system that has more in common with regular MMOs and nothing in common with D&D - then necessitated reaper difficulty.

If you told anyone who designs games who has any credibility doing so that you designed a setting which nerfs specific aspects of the characters over 90% and they still found a way to complete quests, I highly doubt they would support such a system specifically, even being 100% for house rules.

[SirValentine]

Both of them have directly participated in the creation of DDO with their voices for various area.


Yes, they did, but in the old-school DDO, not the mega-power-"creep" we've had the past couple of years.

[Annex]

I truly hope the two gentlemen in question are enjoying themselves in a far better place than they have ever known before, perhaps playing a game and rolling some dice.

Vorpal dropping on random equipment and at Level 1 is dumb.

I am wasting time not taking advantage of the +30% experience thingy again.

[morrok73]

Wow, a lot of good arguments here,(Hey Chai LTNS:), my problem with ddo atm is that it went from being totally unique, to being just another grindfest rpg life after life, and the xp req for a 36pt build is just.....stupid. Add in completionist + racial x whatever....gimme a fu***ng break.The new quests are imho, a testing ground for ssd to see how much tedium we will take before we quit. The weapons at lvl 12+ make the greensteel(lvl 12) I worked my arse off for look like the trash it has now become.It is sad when a barrel drop is even close to raid gear. I guess ddo is at the point where they are just vomiting out anything to keep the lights on. Do us a favor, release an older version of the game,after the initial bug fixes(u-4,5?) and release it as a throwback,you will get back 90% or so of the real dnd players that left. And before anyone says the real dnd players are still here, I misspelled a word in the harbor and no one said anything......

[Hawkwier]

Like the mouse police it never sleeps... :)