Most hated build/class

[burlicconi]

In recent DDO query they asked what is our favourite class.

But, yesterday I play some quests, and, of course, many ppl joined. When one user joined our group, I immediatelly though: "Oh, yet another of my most hated build!"

It was druid/ranger/fighter build which used single weapon exploit to increase DPS. I hate those bullds, probably because druid is my fav class.

Does anybody else have his own "the most hated build/class" and why, that's more interesting part. In terms of "class", I can confirm that warlocks are uterly boring with one-click-insta-kill-whole-bunch-of-bad-people :)

[Connman]

Forum poster.

This is the class that causes me the most "hit myself with a hammer to drowned out the pain."

[Artrish]

Monk was my most hated class for a very long time as I strongly disliked the little martial art stance it would force my character to run round in. Now that I have a disliking to the auto attack blocking jitter, I am over my dislike for that class and can tolerate adding it in to builds.

Playing heroics a lot, warlocks and artificers are my most "sigh" worthy clases. When those are in the group leading the pack, I just go to the opposite corners to boost the kill count toward the exp bonus while that player is soloing the quest. If I am leading the quest, I have the ocassional vent of annoyance if the person has auto completed the quest before I can turn the first corner on the map.

Barbarian are the most annoying class when I am playing as a cleric due to the inability of many to consider damage reduction tactics and self preservation. I am talking the type that drop to 5 hitpoints against the first non-champ mob they engage with.

Rogue is an annoying class to mix in as everyone on the server expects trap disarms regardless of the build style so I need to cart around an extra 5 items plus add an extra hotbar to my screen (totalling 13 hotbars)

[Eth]

Anything Halfling, Gnome or Monk (if you combine them, you are the worst).

And anything with warlock levels once it starts lagging. I'll always blame the warlocks for lag.

[KomradKillMachine]

In the right hands any class/build will be hated and despised by people like OP because they can't handle the fact that there are better skilled players :P

[KomradKillMachine]

Anything Halfling, Gnome or Monk (if you combine them, you are the worst).

And anything with warlock levels once it starts lagging. I'll always blame the warlocks for lag.

BRB making a Gnome 12mnk/6lock/2pal Tree build :D

[Eth]

In the right hands any class/build will be hated and despised by people like OP because they can't handle the fact that there are better skilled players :P

Hate the player, not the build? :D

[burlicconi]

Hate the player, not the build? :D

Hate the player if the build is exploit :)

How many exploit builds are known, beside wolf-single weapon fighting?

Another thing that drows aggro on me is when I see 18/2 build- it should be rare case that 2lvls of other class offers you more that capstone (except for fighters, they give you 2 free feats that can be better than capstone in some cases). Now I think about poor and old enhancements, mostly the capstone.

[Robbenklopper]

In recent DDO query they asked what is our favourite class.

But, yesterday I play some quests, and, of course, many ppl joined. When one user joined our group, I immediatelly though: "Oh, yet another of my most hated build!"

It was druid/ranger/fighter build which used single weapon exploit to increase DPS. I hate those bullds, probably because druid is my fav class.

Does anybody else have his own "the most hated build/class" and why, that's more interesting part. In terms of "class", I can confirm that warlocks are uterly boring with one-click-insta-kill-whole-bunch-of-bad-people :)

For what shall this "hate" thread be good? Even more fuel in the fire just to fill the summer-hole? Whack-a-Lock never get´s boring. Won´t take Long till we reach OP-discussion and Nerf-This Ends up in personal-fighting even before reaching page 2. Very constructive at all, yeah. Sure we don´t like exploits, but there´s too much hate everywhere.

[burlicconi]

For what shall this "hate" thread be good? Even more fuel in the fire just to fill the summer-hole? Whack-a-Lock never get´s boring. Won´t take Long till we reach OP-discussion and Nerf-This Ends up in personal-fighting even before reaching page 2. Very constructive at all, yeah. Sure we don´t like exploits, but there´s too much hate everywhere.

The same question you can ask for favourite class. It's OK to redesign enhancements for more used (or loved) classes. It's completely OK, but on reverse logic you can blame some overpowered builds for 'removing joy" from game.

But, some exploits stands for so long that tey become really annoying. Similar is for warlock class. It is probably the strongest class (probably= for sure), what my druid can do with Call Lightning (insta kill one mob), warlock can do for whole group w/o spell points...

So, if you want fun, then don't pick warlocks. Mostly I played in static group, using warlock is forbidden for now...

And one word about hate- I really love DDO. I don't hate it, I'm aware that some things are not perfect, but still it is great game. And I don't like to see that game more and more looks like some arcade game- you should be able to run every quest single, w/o healer, w/o trapper. I think that DDO should make some imprvements toward multiplayer game imporvement, and favouring one class or non-fixing exploits are not steps in good directions...

And final word about classes- every new class/race is more and more stronger that previous. It's OK from economic view, it brings $$$ to DDO. But, on the other side it lowers joy we have with current system- who wants to be in group of 5 warlocks and stare while they zerg?

[Baktiotha]

I absolutely love exploit builds.

My underlying assumption is that people are going to exploit any game they play. I remember watch a professional baseball player literally lift an opposing player off of base so that he could tag him out. Everyone seemed ok with that, including the umpire who made the call. Nobody seems to have had a problem with LeBron dragging his privates over another man's head, or with that player getting ejected from a game for his reaction. Finding ways to cheat is just human nature. If someone figures out a build that takes advantage of Turbine's coding mistakes then more power to them.

The only buiild/playstyle/whatever that really frustrate me are A) players who don't respect the group leader's wishes, B) players who kite mobs and don't understand how to bring them to the wall of melee characters who are refusing to play chase-the-dummy, and C) melee characters who zerg into trouble and then rage quit when they die. Other than that I don't much care.

Don't care about player level as long as they are in the level range of the LFM, don't care about class and level splits, don't care about how much they contribute or pike, don't care about if they know the quest or are totally lost, don't care if they have great gear or no gear, I really just don't care. I've run through 20+ rez cakes to get a horrible group through a quest and then gone with it into the next one knowing that they were going to fail. Just doesn't matter.

But, not listening to the group leader annoys me. Some leaders want to squeeze every bit of XP out of a quest. Their group, their choice, respect that. Kiting mobs means you get to kill them yourself. Don't expect me to chase you and help out. If you want my help bring me the mob. Zerg ahead and aggro the entire dungeon better be able to handle it. Even if I can I probably won't come help you out. You made your choice, die with it. I'll use one of those rez cakes, or a scroll, or drop you just a second or two from being able to reach the rez shrine.

[PermaBanned]

How many exploit builds are known, beside wolf-single weapon fighting?
A few know many such builds, many know a few such builds ;)

So in the end I'd say many are known, less than many are published ^^

[Baktiotha]

Similar is for warlock class. It is probably the strongest class (probably= for sure), what my druid can do with Call Lightning (insta kill one mob), warlock can do for whole group w/o spell points...

I play a warlock. It is definitely not the strongest class in the game.

If I want to play a stronger class with much less risk to it I will play an arcane archer half-elf ranger with artificer dilettante. Nothing moves if I don't want it to and I can instant kill if that suits my mood and all the while I can stand off from the fight and run away if it gets too scary. If I really need to tough it out I can switch to TWF getting 100% off-hand strikes and if that's too frightening I haven't used a single feat on combat styles so can still swap to SWF or THF or S&B because I got to select that style with my feats.

There are plenty of builds that are more powerful than warlocks. Druid, on the other hand, is one of the weakest classes in the game. It takes very little to be better than a druid. It always amuses me all the little wolves running around. The move so fast from fight to fight but when you look to see what they've killed every other party member has done better. And caster druids are worse. As for the SWF exploits, I can't recall ever seeing one -- it was that unremarkable.

What warlock is isn't powerful, it is just brainless. It takes no real effort to mash 3 keys over and over again. It is Spirit Blast, Eldritch Burst, melee until timers are done, repeat. Then again, that is just a bit more work than autoattack on a barbarian. The only thing that breaks either of their brainless monotony is momentary needs for healing since nobody is going to do that for you.

Which is why I play warlock. I'm in a rush to get XP so easier done with least thinking means much less stress -- and I can often do that while still conversing with family who seem to think they deserve my time and attention. :)

[Baktiotha]

How many exploit builds are known, beside wolf-single weapon fighting?

Depends on how you define an exploit build.

I don't know of any where Turbine has said, "That is an exploit, do not play that build."

I do know of at least three where Turbine appears to have said, "That effect is not WAI."

Part of the problem is reflected in the thread about Terror builds. If the build was posted by a Turbine employee as has been suggested then it becomes hard to argue that using something that is not WAI is actually an exploit. And if using something not WAI in one case is not an exploit it becomes hard to argue that it is an exploit in other cases.

Honestly, I think that using something not WAI is not an exploit because a) Turbine created the code, b) they know it is not doing what they intend, c) Turbine would never have known if someone hadn't given it a try, d) Turbine could take the time and invest the effort to fix the code and make things WAI, e) they do not, so f) until they do they and everyone else ought to expect people to use whatever it happens to be.

So, the Terror build is one example and it is part of a group of AA builds that don't use bows, tree builds are supposed to be not WAI but I have a hard time seeing what it is that isn't WAI (at the most it is that damage/helpful spells give 2 spirit instead of 1), and wolf SWF builds would be the third. Beyond that, I really don't know. I am fairly certain that all of the builds I mention use effects that are not WAI. But, Turbine doesn't fix the code and people are going to play the builds until the code is fixed. So, it is what it is.

[LightBear]

Before bard got swashbuckling I loaded to play that class, every quest felt like piking.

Rogue isn't that much fun to play as wel, just so squisy and so many mobs immune to your sneaks.

My best guess on an exploiter right now would be a Deep Gnome Frenzied Bear Enlighted Spirit.

[Qhualor]

I don't know of any where Turbine has said, "That is an exploit, do not play that build."

I do know of at least three where Turbine appears to have said, "That effect is not WAI."

i am not aware of any dev saying not to play a broken build, but they have said not wai. the broken wolf build for example the devs have said they are aware of the problems and to enjoy it now while its still here, but it is going to be fixed. most likely during the druid pass.

[burlicconi]

Depends on how you define an exploit build.

Honestly, I think that using something not WAI is not an exploit because a) Turbine created the code, b) they know it is not doing what they intend, c) Turbine would never have known if someone hadn't given it a try, d) Turbine could take the time and invest the effort to fix the code and make things WAI, e) they do not, so f) until they do they and everyone else ought to expect people to use whatever it happens to be.


Well, this is the place we will disagree- if something is not WAI, this is exploit for me. Of course, ppl are different, so any "rule" that is not explicitly written can be disobeyed. You can treat it like alignment- paladin is "lawful good", he must play by the rules. But other classes don't :)
So, let's say you walking through Eberon and, suddenly, you step on 100,000,000 XP cookie which DDO devs placed by mistake. You have two choices- to eat it and immediatelly become hero, or leave it and report to devs. You know it should'nt be there, but it is so tempting...

Maybe druid class is one of the weakest, but I know druid have their advantages. I can do serious damage to mobs, keep my party healed and also do small amount of buffs/debuffs. I hope that druid pass (which obviously will never pass :) ) will fix melee tree and add 3rd enhancement line.

Maybe term 'expoloit' is not such clear, but playing in wolf form with SWF is no brainer- it is bug in code, not WAI.

Because of DDO tendency to do all quest soloable, we can speak about "the most strongest" class. Class which should bring most DPS should be casters, sorcerers, but they should be glass cannons- ready to fire strong but limited amount of time. And some guardian should keep their's backs. But nowadays we have disbalance between casters and melee chars.

Generaly, I didn't know that there is "significant" number of exploits. I probably don't know it's bigger part. I hope Turbine knows about it and will fix but, but preserve fun for exploiters :)

[Enoach]

The term exploit has gained two definitions...

1. Using intended features in a combination that makes the features more effective - Such as Aura's for gaining spirits while in Avatar of Nature


2. Using features in a way they were not intended to be used - Such as but not limited to gaining benefits from different combat styles where the benefits were not intended to work together such as TWF/SWF benefiting combat speed while in a form such as Wolf for Druid.


The first one will usually garnish jealousy but usually not vitriol. The second one usually gets both strong opposition and support in some cases preventing any intelligent conversations about it as both sides know it should not exist in the game, but at the same time both know it does. Many times this comes down to "Its there I'm going to use it, and I will scream loudly like a kid throwing a tantrum if they take it away" vs "It ruins my fun, burn it with fire NOW!!!!"

----------------
I don't have a hated build or hated class. I do have a class I refuse to play - Ranger (I created a Ftr/Wiz AA/EK to have an archer without needing Ranger levels), and a class that I prefer to limit to 1 or 2 levels - Rogue (I was overjoyed when Artificer joined the ranks)

[FranOhmsford]

FavSoul

I hated FavSouls when they were the go to Class with WF Blade Barrier Zergers refusing to heal anybody at all! {Including themselves sometimes!}. Being told on my Fleshy i.e. no Repair Spells whatsoever Sorc that I was the "Healer" when joining an all Warforged Party probably didn't help!

I hate FavSouls now when they're gimped as all Hell!


There's just no middle ground with FavSouls!
You either get the Uber Player doing what they've always done only this time with other spells or Bladeforged Melees with barely even 10 Soul levels as BB doesn't do enough Dmg even if it does get through mobs Reflex Saves or you get the complete gimps {this second includes all my Souls!} - There's no in-between!

Worst of all there's the Soul Splash for Shiradis that is literally the only point to the class anymore other than getting the Past Life.


Oh and I suppose I must point out that I was never fairly inclined towards Souls in the first place as it's a Class I don't believe should even exist as it takes away from CLERICS!

[Kylstrem]

, tree builds are supposed to be not WAI but I have a hard time seeing what it is that isn't WAI (at the most it is that damage/helpful spells give 2 spirit instead of 1),


If the trees had animations for cleave, great cleave, whirlwind, trip and sunder that were as slow as normal attack in tree form, then probably no one would be playing that build. I believe that is part that is not WAI.

And before someone says "Oh, man... don't speak about Fight club", I'm pretty confident the devs understand that and I'm not shedding new light on the issue at hand. And My main is a tree build. It is so much fun. If it didn't exist I would likely have quit the game a long time ago.

[Kylstrem]

Also, it's funny how turbine took some of the weakest classes/builds in the game and made them some of the most powerful.

Before the swashbuckler change for bard, Bard was likely my most disliked class... then they took it and made it one of the most powerful melee classes in the game. It may have changed since then, but a swashbuckling bard was the easiest way to get through every Epic Destiny because it was still powerful no matter the ED you were in.

Paladin was also a least favorite of mine... Now it is one of the best pure melee builds.

Barbarian was never a class I liked, but the Ravager and Berserker changes made it one of the most powerful builds with all the self healing and massive damage output.

Mechanic Rogue was just a complete waste of time except to role-players or people who only wanted a specific role of doing traps (which was no longer needed). Now the Mechanic Rogue repeater/Great X-bow build is one of the best DPS/survivable builds in the game.



Those four classes, for me, went from "I'll only play them to get the past lives" to "Wow, these are really fun to play".

Druid was a class I despised when it came out... but the Wolf builds make it bearable to play now... Even with the not-WAI TWF/SWF part, I still don't enjoy playing it... but when I need the past life for Druid, I now have a build that gets me through it quickly.

In addition, the TWF Ranger with Khopeshes is now a DPS monster.

Classes I have no interest at all in playing right now are Cleric, FvS and Fighter... no one needs a healing cleric anymore in game. FvS is great for shiradi caster builds... I love the Shiradi casters and FvS splash makes that shine.

[Eth]

If the trees had animations for cleave, great cleave, whirlwind, trip and sunder that were as slow as normal attack in tree form, then probably no one would be playing that build. I believe that is part that is not WAI.

And before someone says "Oh, man... don't speak about Fight club", I'm pretty confident the devs understand that and I'm not shedding new light on the issue at hand. And My main is a tree build. It is so much fun. If it didn't exist I would likely have quit the game a long time ago.

That's still the wrong way around.
Cleave like attacks are not affected by attack speed. Always been that way and true for every cleave like attack.
If anything it's a design oversight of creating abilities with massive damage, which' only downside is an attack speed penalty, when that can be bypassed (not blaming anyone on not seeing that coming, you can't really predict everything people will come up with, even trees took pretty long, outside of the initial twitch AoN builds).

But saying trees are not WAI is basically saying cleaves are not WAI, which is nonsense.
The only way to balance them, would be through the epic moment itself, but knowing turbine that would probably kill the build.

[Enoach]

If the trees had animations for cleave, great cleave, whirlwind, trip and sunder that were as slow as normal attack in tree form, then probably no one would be playing that build. I believe that is part that is not WAI.

And before someone says "Oh, man... don't speak about Fight club", I'm pretty confident the devs understand that and I'm not shedding new light on the issue at hand. And My main is a tree build. It is so much fun. If it didn't exist I would likely have quit the game a long time ago.

I think most that fixate on this not WAI do so because of the Animation. The fact that cleave/greater cleave/whirlwind are the same speed as they are when not in form is missed simply because the animation does not exist. In my opinion this is more a perceived not WAI then it is an actual not WAI.

If it is not clear, if you take a Non-Avatar of Nature and cycled through the cleaves it would take them the same amount of time as someone who is in Avatar of Nature form. The Avatar gets bonuses to damage the non Avatar does not have, but to do so gives up any self casting or ability to use standard attacks without taking a hit to attack speed.

[bracelet]

So, let's say you walking through Eberon and, suddenly, you step on 100,000,000 XP cookie which DDO devs placed by mistake. You have two choices- to eat it and immediatelly become hero, or leave it and report to devs.

Would I have time to get ship buffs first?

[Aelonwy]

Deep Gnome Frenzied Bear Enlighted Spirit.

I don't know why but this combination just made me giggle. This sounds like a PnP character with alignment True chaotic, whose sole goal is to mess with the DM.


As to the OP: My least liked classes (in DDO) from slightly un-enjoyable to OMG how do I drag myself through this life are favored soul, barbarian, druid and monk. Sorcerer used to be on this list till I switched to Air sorc and learned a slavish luv for Electric Loop SLA but I hate not being able to change my spells at a shrine and find the savant enhancement trees incredibly inflexible in this game. Lately my artificier is much less enjoyable than a mechanic rogue but hopefully that will be adjusted in the future.

BTW my favorite class is still cleric despite how under-powered and generally unnecessary they happen to be and I only feel sad playing her when I think about how 10 years into the game and clerics still do not have their core class feature of domains. =(

[nokowi]

My least favorite class to play was barbarian pre-melee pass (~2010). I ran around continuously holding the mouse (attack) button and cycling through 2 (or was it 3?) attack buttons. By level 8 I had purchased an XP stone.

My second least favorite was monk, also ~2010. While monk had the potential to be cool, I found a sequence of button pushing to be annoying because any lag (or my own ineptitude) would cause me to miss a sequence. Monk ranks #2 in lag importance, with assassin (losing stealth) being #1.

My current least favorite class was Warlock. It was about level 13 when someone told me I didn't have my pact damage on. This was after soloing elites up to that point with mind numbing boredom. I didn't spend any time to make a good build, I didn't have temporary HP's, and I didn't have my pact damage on, and I was still completely unchallenged.

This all being said, what other people play never ruins my fun. I used to run my melee assassin with a necro insta killer who would conveniently try to pick off mobs right before I assassinated them. It turned into a fun game of fake assassinations, waiting for him to use his instakill, and then killing a different mob.

[Duana]

I have a good friend who played DDO for a while long ago. He was an avid hater of batman builds. Ranted about them all the time. Could not stand people playing outside the rules. Screamed it was not right, damned exploiters.

We used to work in the same place and frequently would carpool. He always drives 9 miles above the speed limit. So one day I started giving him **** about not following the rules. "It's different!" he said.

Years later I still get enjoyment out of it. He gave me a ride the pother day. 9 miles over the speed limit. I started humming the theme to Batman.

Anywhoo.....

I used to hate monks. Button mashing ********. Could not stand it, and this coming from a guy who favors casters. Now every frigging classes requires 6 fingered, two thumbed, boneless hands. Other than lag, and bastard swords, it is the thing I dislike most about this game.

[Kylstrem]

I think most that fixate on this not WAI do so because of the Animation. The fact that cleave/greater cleave/whirlwind are the same speed as they are when not in form is missed simply because the animation does not exist. In my opinion this is more a perceived not WAI then it is an actual not WAI.

If it is not clear, if you take a Non-Avatar of Nature and cycled through the cleaves it would take them the same amount of time as someone who is in Avatar of Nature form. The Avatar gets bonuses to damage the non Avatar does not have, but to do so gives up any self casting or ability to use standard attacks without taking a hit to attack speed.


You are missing a big step on this.
If you take a tree and do regular swing (just click the right-mouse button), the attack rate is VERY SLOW. Much Slower than the same type of attack on a non-Avatar form.

So, that has to be your base, which attacking in Primal Avatar form is supposed to be slower than non-Avatar. Since the normal attack is slower in Avatar form than in non-Avatar form, that extra-slowness should also be in the other types of attacks (trip, sunder, cleave, great cleave, whirlwind). Forget the lack of animation... that's not the problem.

If you don't agree with that, why is the standard attack so slow? Why would it take so much more time for a standard attack, but a trip attempt is instantaneous? Or Sunder is Instantaneous? How long would it take a tree form to spin all the way around in a cleave or whirlwind, if your base attack is painfully slow?


If base attack is really slow compared to non-Avatar form, then the other types of attacks should also be slower than non-Avatar. Forget the animation part.

Essentially this line thinking is:
Avatar regular attack is fine being extra slow vs non Avatar, but Avatar special attacks are the same speed as non-Avatar even if it had animation and that is fine.

[Wipey]

I try to avoid warlocks. The class "represents" everything wrong with the game, completely overpowers content ( like many classes ) but while requiring zero knowledge, gear or gameplay skill.

I love when people show up on "garbage" toons and somehow make them work or contribute, makes for different experience than usual 5 x blitzer.
Enchanter, fvs or clr caster, spellsinger, monkcher, assassin or unusual stuff, I love that. Arty, druid caster, non shiradi sorc, uber PM, whatever. Old school disco or symbol (!) puts a tear in my eye.

Not many people are like that - "powergaming" crappy toons.

[HAL]

Forum poster.

This is the class that causes me the most "hit myself with a hammer to drowned out the pain."

That's interesting as you are also a forum poster.

[Enoach]

You are missing a big step on this.
If you take a tree and do regular swing (just click the right-mouse button), the attack rate is VERY SLOW. Much Slower than the same type of attack on a non-Avatar form.

So, that has to be your base, which attacking in Primal Avatar form is supposed to be slower than non-Avatar. Since the normal attack is slower in Avatar form than in non-Avatar form, that extra-slowness should also be in the other types of attacks (trip, sunder, cleave, great cleave, whirlwind). Forget the lack of animation... that's not the problem.

If you don't agree with that, why is the standard attack so slow? Why would it take so much more time for a standard attack, but a trip attempt is instantaneous? Or Sunder is Instantaneous? How long would it take a tree form to spin all the way around in a cleave or whirlwind, if your base attack is painfully slow?


If base attack is really slow compared to non-Avatar form, then the other types of attacks should also be slower than non-Avatar. Forget the animation part.

Essentially this line thinking is:
Avatar regular attack is fine being extra slow vs non Avatar, but Avatar special attacks are the same speed as non-Avatar even if it had animation and that is fine.

I didn't miss this. The types of attacks have a set speed that is not effected by any combat speed that is my point. Hasted/Slowed it does not matter these abilities have the same speed.

I agree the question should be asked if these abilities should be effected by combat speed. But doing so would effect these abilities for all. This is not an issue with the Avatar of Nature so much as this simply makes this more visible.

[Baktiotha]

Well, this is the place we will disagree- if something is not WAI, this is exploit for me. Of course, ppl are different, so any "rule" that is not explicitly written can be disobeyed. You can treat it like alignment- paladin is "lawful good", he must play by the rules. But other classes don't :)

A lot of forum posters view themselves as paladins. I view myself more as a rogue. :D


So, let's say you walking through Eberon and, suddenly, you step on 100,000,000 XP cookie which DDO devs placed by mistake. You have two choices- to eat it and immediatelly become hero, or leave it and report to devs. You know it should'nt be there, but it is so tempting...

You are walking down the street and see 20 euro/dinar/dollars laying on the sidewalk. Do you pick it up and pocket it or do you take it to the local authorities and report it found?

Of course I eat the cookie. I'll just assume it was and Easter egg left by the developers for those lucky enough to stumble across it.

I find people are often paladins on the internet but rogues in real life. ;)


Maybe term 'expoloit' is not such clear, but playing in wolf form with SWF is no brainer- it is bug in code, not WAI.

So, enjoy it until the developers fix the code. Nothing stops them from devoting the resources to doing that. And, if it matters that much to Turbine they will find a way to prioritize fixing the code.

I think it bothers forum paladins more than it bothers Turbine.


Because of DDO tendency to do all quest soloable, we can speak about "the most strongest" class. Class which should bring most DPS should be casters, sorcerers, but they should be glass cannons- ready to fire strong but limited amount of time. And some guardian should keep their's backs. But nowadays we have disbalance between casters and melee chars

When there is a lot of solo questing it does not matter if there is imbalance between classes. It doesn't matter if there are builds that use things that are not WAI. When you solo it does nothing to impact any other player. I think that means there is no reason to worry about what others do or what builds they use. Build for your own enjoyment since you will be soloing most of the game in any case.

If everyone can solo then everyone can group as well. It might ruffle a few egos if a person does a quest a certain way and the others in the group do things differently. It can bruise egos if a person thinks they have the ultimate build and someone else is out performing them. But, it should not. If everyone can solo then they can always take their hurt feelings and go solo the quest. Nothing compels people to join groups.

When I stop worrying about what build others are playing and stop getting hurt feelings when others out perform me then I can stop concerning myself with whether something is WAI or not, exploit or not, balanced or not. If I spend my effort on my build and my choices I can stop being judgemental about what others are doing.

What they do only affects me if I allow it to affect me.

So, if you want to be a paladin (in game, on the forums or in life) go be a paladin. I'll keep being a rogue. :)

[Baktiotha]

I didn't miss this. The types of attacks have a set speed that is not effected by any combat speed that is my point. Hasted/Slowed it does not matter these abilities have the same speed.

I agree the question should be asked if these abilities should be effected by combat speed. But doing so would effect these abilities for all. This is not an issue with the Avatar of Nature so much as this simply makes this more visible.

I agree. The special attacks all have a set speed and nothing affects that.

To argue that it is not WAI for special attacks to allow trees to fight faster would be to argue that special attacks are not WAI for other builds because it does not accelerate to their faster attack speeds.

In other words, if that is the problem then the special attacks are not WAI for any build.

That makes *every* build an "exploit" for using those attacks because *none* of them are WAI by that standard. :)

[LightBear]

I agree. The special attacks all have a set speed and nothing affects that.

To argue that it is not WAI for special attacks to allow trees to fight faster would be to argue that special attacks are not WAI for other builds because it does not accelerate to their faster attack speeds.

In other words, if that is the problem then the special attacks are not WAI for any build.

That makes *every* build an "exploit" for using those attacks because *none* of them are WAI by that standard. :)

Not only that, but where a special attack is faster in a tree build it is slower on a TWF-DoubleStrike-MeleeAlacrity build.

[Vint]

The only build (player really) I hated was the ranged took that would kite a mob all around a dungeon while yelling "KILL'EM before it kills me"

Other players would go to the rescue while I would stand and wait for a soul stone, then go after the mob.

[Enderoc]

Anything Halfling, Gnome or Monk (if you combine them, you are the worst).

And anything with warlock levels once it starts lagging. I'll always blame the warlocks for lag.

My AA Harper Agent gnome with wizard/rogue splashes is all glitter dude.

[HastyPudding]

This should come as no surprise to anyone:

1. Enlightened Spirit Warlocks - If you have bloated 2500/1200 HP I will hate you. If you have that white circle under your feet as you float around, I will instantly hate you. If you run in unyielding sentinel I will hate you even more. If you spam eldritch cleaves while doing any of these I will unfriend you and put you on squelch until you change your build. This build is nothing but lazy, unoriginal, and turns any total newbie player into what they think is a pro. If you need that much HP to keep you alive then you need to learn how to play and stop using a crutch that is enlightened spirit. I cannot begin to explain how much this three-button-wonder build irritates me.

2. Shiradi Casters - I use the term 'casters' very loosely, here. I have a burning hatred for the shiradi champion destiny. If you're ranged ranger/artificer/fighter or whatever, then I'm fine with it. If you're a wizard/cleric/druid/warlock/sorcerer/favored soul or some combination of those classes I usually don't let you in my party if I've seen you using magic missiles. Learn to build a proper DC caster and stop being lazy. I attribute shiradi 'casters' as the single, greatest contributor to the holding back of DC casters a while back. The destiny should be redone and not work with spells. Nobody should be spamming the most basic level 1 spells at level 30.

3. Monkchers - My hatred for this build has died down a bit because you don't see many monkchers anymore. That being said, I still don't like them.

4. Pure Paladin Vanguard - I don't understand this lot. A pure fighter vanguard is superior in almost every way to a paladin. The vast amount of feats you get more than make up for the lack of self healing in heroics and the loss of zeal/holy sword. With those extra feats you can get the full shield line, full THF line for glancing bows if you wanted it, the full line of fighter specialization feats/tactical feats/heavy armor feats, and still have some left over. Not to mention vanguards almost always spec into the defender trees, and stalwart defender adds way more DPS and utility than sacred defender (and the heavy armor feats make up for the slight increased defenses sacred defender has). Unless you're just going for a past life, I don't understand pure paladin vanguards.

[Hirosue]

That is just petulant. I play a warlock. It is definitely not the strongest class in the game.

If I want to play a stronger class with much less risk to it I will play an arcane archer half-elf ranger with artificer dilettante. Nothing moves if I don't want it to and I can instant kill if that suits my mood and all the while I can stand off from the fight and run away if it gets too scary. If I really need to tough it out I can switch to TWF getting 100% off-hand strikes and if that's too frightening I haven't used a single feat on combat styles so can still swap to SWF or THF or S&B because I got to select that style with my feats.

There are plenty of builds that are more powerful than warlocks. Druid, on the other hand, is one of the weakest classes in the game. It takes very little to be better than a druid. It always amuses me all the little wolves running around. The move so fast from fight to fight but when you look to see what they've killed every other party member has done better. And caster druids are worse. As for the SWF exploits, I can't recall ever seeing one -- it was that unremarkable.

Not surprising that a druid player would be jealous of other builds.

What warlock is isn't powerful, it is just brainless. It takes no real effort to mash 3 keys over and over again. It is Spirit Blast, Eldritch Burst, melee until timers are done, repeat. Then again, that is just a bit more work than autoattack on a barbarian. The only thing that breaks either of their brainless monotony is momentary needs for healing since nobody is going to do that for you.

Which is why I play warlock. I'm in a rush to get XP so easier done with least thinking means much less stress -- and I can often do that while still conversing with family who seem to think they deserve my time and attention. :)

It is quite clear that you have some issues with Druid class as you spend a lot of time smack talking and trolling for a response from Druid players.

Good luck playing the I win button warlock class whilst not thinking.

You are clearly an expert at not thinking.

Well done.

[Ghost000]

I think the best aim for comments on this thread would be to point out (and maybe even be seen by devs) things that are poor performers now, that need improvement. Not just your hatred of exploits or easy buttons, but the builds that would be fun if only xxxx could happen. Clerics being a prime example, with almost no need for healz me, what would make a cleric a better class? A "more fun" class, including solo? THIS type of feedback is what the devs need to see, not your pet peeves. Even just what classes/combos are way under performing, with no detail, would be more helpful than rants and whines of what you think are overpowered, sheesh.
Have fun!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

One super powered original build is cool.

Seeing every PUGger playing one as it becomes the FotM is....depressing. :(

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The only build (player really) I hated was the ranged took that would kite a mob all around a dungeon while yelling "KILL'EM before it kills me"

Other players would go to the rescue while I would stand and wait for a soul stone, then go after the mob.



I've /cheer ed on occasion.....

[Hawkwier]

I play barbs. So hate everything else. I'm too dumb and ignorant to know any better. At least I hate everyone else equally, so there is that, I guess.

I also extra hate pallies. They smell bad. This is a real problem when everyone is huddled at the blades in DoJ waiting for a straggler, and the pally drops a fart. It's always the pally. You just have to look at the expression on their face. Hate pallies. Smelly pallies.

And I hate whoever it was that broke the plank in the harbour. Words are too pale to express the hate I feel for whoever perpetrated that act of terror. I bet it was a pally looking for the toilet... Crom knows why they just couldn't do it off the side of the bridge like the rest of us. We should build a wall. With ballistae...

That's about it, really. Not a long list: Basically everyone who isn't a barb, and a bit extra for pallies. Coz I'm a nice barb...

*ABB = anyone but barbs. :)**



** And TBH I'm not too keen on some of that lot either...

[Ellihor]

I'm sorry Eth and company, but trees are not WAI. The people who run this game have stated it already, so it is not WAI, period. Stop with the sofism to try to justify it. And yes, I agree, cleaves are borken on every class and should be affected by attack speed.

And responding to OP: I hate everything that deviates from PnP 3.5 rules. That's obviously warlock, shiradi spammer, trees, bugged wolf, furyshot and all the nonsense. Don't get me wrong, I actually have a wolf and a warlock, but it doesn't change the fact that I'd like those nerfed to oblivion.

[slarden]

This is an amusing thread to read. Keep it up.

[Connman]

That's interesting as you are also a forum poster.

I have no doubt HAL that some people read my posts and are reaching for their own hammer.

Seriously though as far as builds I have played I think I hate gold's shiradi build the most. I had to TR out of that before I got carpal tunnel.

[Eth]

I'm sorry Eth and company, but trees are not WAI. The people who run this game have stated it already, so it is not WAI, period. Stop with the sofism to try to justify it. And yes, I agree, cleaves are borken on every class and should be affected by attack speed.

And responding to OP: I hate everything that deviates from PnP 3.5 rules. That's obviously warlock, shiradi spammer, trees, bugged wolf, furyshot and all the nonsense. Don't get me wrong, I actually have a wolf and a warlock, but it doesn't change the fact that I'd like those nerfed to oblivion.

I know Sev said it is not WAI, I'd still argue though that the mechanics the tree builds (ab)use are working as they should, since cleaves were never subject to attack speed.
I also think implementing a way of attack speed affecting cleaves is a terrible solution, that would require a ton of coding and likely break even more stuff.
If they want to fix tree form they can very easily adjust the damage output by modifying the numbers to whatever DPS they want them to be.
The only downside to this would be a direct nerf to the people that play tree form in its intended way.
Yeah, wait, let us ask all the 2 people on all the servers combined that do that, if it's OK with them...

Want to nerf the tree DPS by roughly 10%? Adjust the base damage die to 32[D20], 48[d20], 64[d20]. Done. Build still exists and works the same way.

And just for the record. I have never played a wolf, tree or warlock on live servers to this day, nor do I intend to. ;)

[Theolin]

much hate in thread, There is. Assured is dark side journey.

[HAL]

I'm sorry Eth and company, but trees are not WAI. The people who run this game have stated it already, so it is not WAI, period. Stop with the sofism to try to justify it. And yes, I agree, cleaves are borken on every class and should be affected by attack speed.

And responding to OP: I hate everything that deviates from PnP 3.5 rules. That's obviously warlock, shiradi spammer, trees, bugged wolf, furyshot and all the nonsense. Don't get me wrong, I actually have a wolf and a warlock, but it doesn't change the fact that I'd like those nerfed to oblivion.

I believe that most of DDO deviates from PnP 3.5 rules...

[ChicagoChris]

I play barbs. So hate everything else. I'm too dumb and ignorant to know any better. At least I hate everyone else equally, so there is that, I guess.

I also extra hate pallies. They smell bad. This is a real problem when everyone is huddled at the blades in DoJ waiting for a straggler, and the pally drops a fart. It's always the pally. You just have to look at the expression on their face. Hate pallies. Smelly pallies.

And I hate whoever it was that broke the plank in the harbour. Words are too pale to express the hate I feel for whoever perpetrated that act of terror. I bet it was a pally looking for the toilet... Crom knows why they just couldn't do it off the side of the bridge like the rest of us. We should build a wall. With ballistae...

That's about it, really. Not a long list: Basically everyone who isn't a barb, and a bit extra for pallies. Coz I'm a nice barb...

*ABB = anyone but barbs. :)**



** And TBH I'm not too keen on some of that lot either...

So I'm plat capped on my toons - who do I talk to to *pay* the harbor to fix that?

Seriously, I can spend Plat on a lootgen sword that kills CR20's and lower when they *look* at it, but can't seem to find any cedar 2x8's and a couple of nails anywhere.

[Kylstrem]

I didn't miss this. The types of attacks have a set speed that is not effected by any combat speed that is my point. Hasted/Slowed it does not matter these abilities have the same speed.

I agree the question should be asked if these abilities should be effected by combat speed. But doing so would effect these abilities for all. This is not an issue with the Avatar of Nature so much as this simply makes this more visible.

I'll concede that point since I didn't know that NOTHING at all affected those attacks... if being slowed, or encumbered, or other slowing like effects don't affect those types of attacks then Turbine just didn't think through everything.

BUT, if those abilities were affected by slow/haste/etc and then they could actually slow them down on the tree as much as they slow down the regular attack for trees, the effect on tree builds would be much more detrimental than the effect on all other builds, and it would essentially make the tree WAI.

If non-avatars only had to deal with slowed attacks they would drink a potion to fix it and no one would complain. Essentially the thing that is not WAI is Trip/Sunder/Cleave/Great Cleave/Whirlwind Attack were never able to be affected by spell effects/encumbrance/etc. They fix that, then they "fix" trees as a side effect, and no one ever plays a tree again.

[Kylstrem]

This should come as no surprise to anyone:

1. Enlightened Spirit Warlocks - If you have bloated 2500/1200 HP I will hate you. If you have that white circle under your feet as you float around, I will instantly hate you. If you run in unyielding sentinel I will hate you even more. If you spam eldritch cleaves while doing any of these I will unfriend you and put you on squelch until you change your build. This build is nothing but lazy, unoriginal, and turns any total newbie player into what they think is a pro. If you need that much HP to keep you alive then you need to learn how to play and stop using a crutch that is enlightened spirit. I cannot begin to explain how much this three-button-wonder build irritates me.

2. Shiradi Casters - I use the term 'casters' very loosely, here. I have a burning hatred for the shiradi champion destiny. If you're ranged ranger/artificer/fighter or whatever, then I'm fine with it. If you're a wizard/cleric/druid/warlock/sorcerer/favored soul or some combination of those classes I usually don't let you in my party if I've seen you using magic missiles. Learn to build a proper DC caster and stop being lazy. I attribute shiradi 'casters' as the single, greatest contributor to the holding back of DC casters a while back. The destiny should be redone and not work with spells. Nobody should be spamming the most basic level 1 spells at level 30.

3. Monkchers - My hatred for this build has died down a bit because you don't see many monkchers anymore. That being said, I still don't like them.

4. Pure Paladin Vanguard - I don't understand this lot. A pure fighter vanguard is superior in almost every way to a paladin. The vast amount of feats you get more than make up for the lack of self healing in heroics and the loss of zeal/holy sword. With those extra feats you can get the full shield line, full THF line for glancing bows if you wanted it, the full line of fighter specialization feats/tactical feats/heavy armor feats, and still have some left over. Not to mention vanguards almost always spec into the defender trees, and stalwart defender adds way more DPS and utility than sacred defender (and the heavy armor feats make up for the slight increased defenses sacred defender has). Unless you're just going for a past life, I don't understand pure paladin vanguards.

I bet you are fun at parties.;)

[Enoach]

This should come as no surprise to anyone:

1. Enlightened Spirit Warlocks - If you have bloated 2500/1200 HP I will hate you. If you have that white circle under your feet as you float around, I will instantly hate you. If you run in unyielding sentinel I will hate you even more. If you spam eldritch cleaves while doing any of these I will unfriend you and put you on squelch until you change your build. This build is nothing but lazy, unoriginal, and turns any total newbie player into what they think is a pro. If you need that much HP to keep you alive then you need to learn how to play and stop using a crutch that is enlightened spirit. I cannot begin to explain how much this three-button-wonder build irritates me.

2. Shiradi Casters - I use the term 'casters' very loosely, here. I have a burning hatred for the shiradi champion destiny. If you're ranged ranger/artificer/fighter or whatever, then I'm fine with it. If you're a wizard/cleric/druid/warlock/sorcerer/favored soul or some combination of those classes I usually don't let you in my party if I've seen you using magic missiles. Learn to build a proper DC caster and stop being lazy. I attribute shiradi 'casters' as the single, greatest contributor to the holding back of DC casters a while back. The destiny should be redone and not work with spells. Nobody should be spamming the most basic level 1 spells at level 30.

3. Monkchers - My hatred for this build has died down a bit because you don't see many monkchers anymore. That being said, I still don't like them.

4. Pure Paladin Vanguard - I don't understand this lot. A pure fighter vanguard is superior in almost every way to a paladin. The vast amount of feats you get more than make up for the lack of self healing in heroics and the loss of zeal/holy sword. With those extra feats you can get the full shield line, full THF line for glancing bows if you wanted it, the full line of fighter specialization feats/tactical feats/heavy armor feats, and still have some left over. Not to mention vanguards almost always spec into the defender trees, and stalwart defender adds way more DPS and utility than sacred defender (and the heavy armor feats make up for the slight increased defenses sacred defender has). Unless you're just going for a past life, I don't understand pure paladin vanguards.

1. I get why you feel that way, but how is this any different to any other Melee running in Legendary Dreadnaught spamming cleaves?

2. Ok, there is some truth here when a person can spend 6 SP and get large numbers that many higher levels spells would have difficulty with at a much higher cost. So I agree making an ability more effective because it has more hit potentials was a dangerous thing, which resulted in I believe 3 total nerfs to Shiradi.

But, I do know how to make a proper DC caster and I still will use Magic Missiles at level 30. It is especially convenient for hitting mobs with 100ish HP left. Very cheap and gets the job done.

3. I think the reason you don't see as many of these anymore is because of the changes made to 10K stars and Manyshot, as well as removing the Doubleshot penalty. I know the reason I initially did one was because combining the two abilities meant I could keep a significant rate of fire going. I switched to a medium armored Ftr/Wiz AA/EK but not because of the changes as much as from benefiting from the PRR/MRR changes. I'm actually much happier with the new build as the Wizard Levels go a long way in helping benefit from the AA DC changes.

4. If you only look at it from a DPS point of view then sure you have a point about the extra feats etc. But I disagree about the survivability being better. Paladin makes up a lot of ground with the changes that were made with their buffs. Additionally, you would be hard pressed to find a Fighter with Saves in all three areas that would rival the saves of a Paladin. Additionally, a charisma based paladin also benefits with social skills as well as potentially with UMD or using skills (not commonly used but could) like Diplomacy and Bluff giving them a higher base as well as options to pull agro (Intimidate) and then drop it as needed (Diplomacy). This give a paladin a way to play PONG with agro without needing another intimidator on the other side :)

It would also be good to note that many of the abilities of Vanguard are coded to your Highest Ability Modifier. This again benefits the non-traditional Strength based Fighter/Paladin


I bet you are fun at parties.;)

I will agree with you, they must be a hoot :)

[Mithis]

Back when Warlock was released I made one to run with some guildmates (we all TRed at the same time). He ended up getting shelved at about level 12 and I recently started playing him again so I could TR back into a S&B melee.

He was designed to be a ES Warlock and I hate...hate...hate him.

I have a SE Warlock that I love so this is not just irrational Warlock hate...it's irrational Enlightened Spirit hate.

[Taimasan]

Ranger/Caster who kites stuff instead of letting melee get it.


...Granted this takes a good group composition for this to be annoying and not your golden ticket to the caster giving you a free completion.

[Eth]

At least I hate everyone else equally, so there is that, I guess.


Best attitude.

[charles13f]

In the right hands any class/build will be hated and despised by people like OP because they can't handle the fact that there are better skilled players :P

Or because they min/max and get it into everyone's head that's the ONLY way to be... then it causes new players to leave because they see themselves and cannot compete with the player that has a +5 holy keen vorpal defender of kill things with sharp pointy teeth on a character that would otherwise be gimp except for an exploit in whatever...

[KomradKillMachine]

Or because they min/max and get it into everyone's head that's the ONLY way to be... then it causes new players to leave because they see themselves and cannot compete with the player that has a +5 holy keen vorpal defender of kill things with sharp pointy teeth on a character that would otherwise be gimp except for an exploit in whatever...

Oh, please. That is the least likely reasons for new players to leave. Lag, Broken mechanics, bugs, Lag, steep learning curve, Lag, outdated graphics, and most importantly LAG makes new players leave.
Only min/maxers are crazy enough to test extensively every mechanic and wade thru tons of WAI and non-WAI things and put them to good use.
Then come the herpaderps like OP and cry EXPLOITZZ! NERF PWEEASSE! It would be reasonable only in a PvP game though. If you don't wanna play that game then fine, put it in your LFM. There is room for all types of players, even the special ones too.

[Ulfo]

It would be reasonable only in a PvP game though.

Sic!!! 8)

[Ellihor]

I also think implementing a way of attack speed affecting cleaves is a terrible solution, that would require a ton of coding and likely break even more stuff.
If they want to fix tree form they can very easily adjust the damage output by modifying the numbers to whatever DPS they want them to be.
The only downside to this would be a direct nerf to the people that play tree form in its intended way.
Yeah, wait, let us ask all the 2 people on all the servers combined that do that, if it's OK with them...

Want to nerf the tree DPS by roughly 10%? Adjust the base damage die to 32[D20], 48[d20], 64[d20]. Done. Build still exists and works the same way.


I agree that would create too much trouble. But my problem with tree, just like with warlock, wolves, shiradi spammer etc, is not the DPS, so adjusting the damage wouldn't fix anything for me at least. Their DPS is not broken because there are many builds whose DPS is competitive. My problem with them is the lore, I just hate seeing a **** Wood Wood in the party, a floating god with dumped casting stat bursting without mana, a sorcerer doing magic missiles non stop and all the nonsense that deviates from PnP. The solution for the tree problem specifically would be to remove tree from the game, and make primal avatar an ok destiny designed to be optimal for druids, like it should.

[Six_Gun]

Any and all builds that use ranged weapons to kite mobs around. I just don't understand that play-style in a game intended for group play. I grit my teeth whenever I see an Elf ranger (nearly always a female toon) join any group I'm in, it's almost guaranteed to be a bouncing backwards moron.

[Kylstrem]

Any and all builds that use ranged weapons to kite mobs around. I just don't understand that play-style in a game intended for group play. I grit my teeth whenever I see an Elf ranger (nearly always a female toon) join any group I'm in, it's almost guaranteed to be a bouncing backwards moron.

when this happens, I just tell them... "Okay, those mobs are yours to deal with... good luck!" and either move forward in the dungeon or find some other mobs to fight.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who chases after him.....

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who chases after him.....

Well done sir. :cool:

[Edwardt]

Ranger/Caster who kites stuff instead of letting melee get it.
[...].

You don't run after them, do you? With my tank I simply wait until the mobs do their job and take out the remaining ones one by one. Use Diplo to speed up the progress :cool:

[Chai]

This thread is a perfect example of the group play mentality in this game. :p

[Edwardt]

when this happens, I just tell them... "Okay, those mobs are yours to deal with... good luck!" and either move forward in the dungeon or find some other mobs to fight.
Exactly my call. You like to grab agro, well then deal with it! But I tell them before they open the door to their doom.

But Chai is also right with the statement:

This thread is a perfect example of the group play mentality in this game. :p

It is totally fine for me, if people want to show their abilities, when they are proud of new gear which makes them a bit stronger than before, when they are excited about the new build and if they want to be one of the top on the kill list. But if you whish to accomplish a challenging quest, or raid I exspect some self-awareness and the willingness to work as a group.

In my experience it was nearly always the lack of communication which makes a run unpleasant, not the build and with some exceptions nor the player.