Steep investment in the game if you are new and play upper levels

[Oliphant]

Ok so you are new and you want to jump into the game in 2016?

Do you want to play Menace of the Underdark or Shadowfell? I'm not sure I can recommend that at the normal price of $29 each, for the slimmest option, not in 2016. The gear is all obsolete now, although you can get end rewards from the Wheloon and Stormhorns quests that will get you in the ok-gear-zone immediately.

Do you want to play iconics? Pay $49 for Shadowfell then, or spend 1,295 TP for each - that adds up fast.

Do you want to play epics? Then you definitely want to buy Epic Destinies at 995 TP.

If you want to play other quests not on the following list, you will need to go VIP for $8-10 per month or buy some packs (thousands more TP) or pay more for Menace of the Underdark ($49).

http://ddowiki.com/page/Guide_to_Free_to_Play#Quest_List

Stat tomes used to drop in quest chest, but not really anymore, so expect to pay for stat tomes you desire. If you buy the stat tomes, don't expect that your character can keep up with the toons with little TR wings, it still will not.

--------

I'm probably biased as I think the MotU paywall is what killed the DDO population. I own all of what DDO was selling when it comes to MotU and Shadowfell and I would gladly see it all given away in 2016 to new players or converted to affordable packs - this is just being realistic and I don't think it devalues future expansions to be realistic that time has moved on since these came out. However, I would never recommend anymore expansions dividing the population. I will admit folks still play the expansions, especially the Shadowfell quests, so that's some positive evidence they were not a total fail (I have to be honest, if not generous).

[Marshal_Lannes]

This is where marketing has dropped the ball. Why wouldn't you offer new account VIPs a package deal? Sign up for 6 months of VIP and get MoTU for free. Sign up for a year and you get Shadowfell as well. This seems like such a no brainer that it is almost frustrating to me as someone who wants to see the game grow that they don't do this. We have lots of new players in our guild and I was talking to a couple the other day about epic play and that's when I found out the staggering price of Motu. New players level up very fast to 20 so in the span of 2 weeks you want to sell them a VIP subscription then a couple weeks later hit them up for $50 to continue into epic play? Come on.

[Oliphant]

I like your idea, Marshall, it would get folks invested in the game. Close the deal!

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

They definitely could breathe some life into the game by bundling the expansions in with a sub.

Also, there was another thread rolling around here about "re-launching" free to play by making some more packs f2p. Some of the ones like catacombs, stk, sharn, necro 1, restless isles.

All good ideas. But at this point I don't have much faith in management or marketing to make it happen.

[Oliphant]

I think the ace in the hole of this "old" game is content, lots of it - I hope they can use it to better attract new players

[Nuclear_Elvis]

This is where marketing has dropped the ball. Why wouldn't you offer new account VIPs a package deal? Sign up for 6 months of VIP and get MoTU for free. Sign up for a year and you get Shadowfell as well. This seems like such a no brainer that it is almost frustrating to me as someone who wants to see the game grow that they don't do this. We have lots of new players in our guild and I was talking to a couple the other day about epic play and that's when I found out the staggering price of Motu. New players level up very fast to 20 so in the span of 2 weeks you want to sell them a VIP subscription then a couple weeks later hit them up for $50 to continue into epic play? Come on.

Good idea, but there's even more of a problem with Marketing the game that is going on right now. Again, bear in mind - I have 720+ guild members so I get a lot of feedback --- there are VIP paying customers who do not know that the DDO Market even exists, and that they did not get all content when subscribing to VIP. I've had to explain the "you didn't get everything" many times to newer players who chose to subscribe to VIP, had to lead them to the DDO Market via www.ddo.com > Store > DDO Market.

I have had to explain the differences in the in-game DDO Store's version of the expansions vs the out-of-game DDO Market more times than I can remember also. The packaging differences are not well known/understood among the new player base. Your idea would cut at the heart of this, to package it in, which - could be viewed as a temp Sale event or a permanent change to the game's VIP system. I would vote for the latter, to permanently package into VIP, because there is not as much incentive to be VIP in the current game we have where time has allowed for many TRs and characters that open Elite the first time on 3rd life and "play like a VIP" for everything but the Gold Dice roll.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

They definitely could breathe some life into the game by bundling the expansions in with a sub.

Also, there was another thread rolling around here about "re-launching" free to play by making some more packs f2p. Some of the ones like catacombs, stk, sharn, necro 1, restless isles.

All good ideas. But at this point I don't have much faith in management or marketing to make it happen.

There is a better option that is in Turbine's interests - simply sell more Starter Packs, for one thing. Starter Pack at normal price $9.99 is not appealing. However, when they packaged it at $1.50 there were many of us jumping on it, for multiple purchases simply to offer them up as Guild giveaway events. During the Black Friday/Christmas sale period, I'd bet they sold a ton of Starter Packs, and could do so again. My opinion, the DDO Market needs a permanent price cut for what is offered there. I'd say this should be a "next step" before simply opening it totally free, which is not in Turbine's interests. Simply put, Turbine needs a permanent sale price/price cut for the DDO Market, and as another poster recommended - make the Expansions part of VIP.

[Oliphant]

I say any quest for Free Agent favor should be free!

[nokowi]

I think the ace in the hole of this "old" game is content, lots of it - I hope they can use it to better attract new players

When content is challenging (through time or difficulty), they make $ by providing access to items that help reduce that challenge. That's the FTP model.

I feel that DDO has enough content to open up at least some of the older packs, while keeping the newest packs as purchased items. In their defense, many of these packs do go on fire-sales, so we might only be talking a couple of dollars for those who wait for good sales.

[Amundir]

DDO engages in marketing?

[Coyopa]

... making some more packs f2p. Some of the ones like catacombs, stk, sharn, necro 1, restless isles...

First, Catacombs should probably always have been free to play. The quests are boring, the chain gets to feel like an unending slog, and the experience earned is low.

Second, STK, Sharn, and Necro 1 don't need to be made free to play because of the wide availability of experience at those levels. That said, I think Sharn is an incredibly fun chain to run and I enjoy running it each life. So, if they made it free to play and gave me more people to run it with, I certainly would not complain. I've even purchased guest passes for people just so I didn't have to break up my group and put an lfm back up.

Third, even making Restless Isles free to play would not increase the number of players running those quests. Neither are particularly fun and the raid is long dead. The only reason to run them now is the entries in the Monster Manual. Threnal is one they should make free to play because you'd probably get more people running it.

[Oliphant]

Maybe they should prune out some of the quests proven to be no fun. Either you give them for free, but doing this for quests that are not fun does not help marketing. Or you sell them, and then folks have to wonder if buying packs is not such a good idea. Seems like the game has plenty of content at most levels now, and so they could prune a little without major loss. The folks that own the discontinued packs could be given a unique BTA named item from a list (something brand new and totally unique not something existing from the pack), or some TP or something.

[Coyopa]

The folks that own the discontinued packs could be given a unique BTA named item from a list (something brand new and totally unique not something existing from the pack), or some TP or something.

This is an interesting idea. I hate Catacombs, but I still run it every life. (Glutton for punishment or something like that, I suppose...) I think letting the player choose whether they want TP, the item, or whatever else is on offer would be best. Though, if you removed Catacombs, you're removing 72 Silver Flame favor - and that could be problematic.

[Amundir]

Yeah, I feel the same about Catacomb. Run it every life for the favor, but every time I have a distinct and clear feeling of "I hate this chain". And I'm not entirely sure if my reason is because it is your first major encounter with undead, so you have to get back into that mind set, or if it's the annoying return to the top of the tower to turn in all the quests. Really wish they would do something about that.

[Enoach]

First, Catacombs should probably always have been free to play. The quests are boring, the chain gets to feel like an unending slog, and the experience earned is low.

Second, STK, Sharn, and Necro 1 don't need to be made free to play because of the wide availability of experience at those levels. That said, I think Sharn is an incredibly fun chain to run and I enjoy running it each life. So, if they made it free to play and gave me more people to run it with, I certainly would not complain. I've even purchased guest passes for people just so I didn't have to break up my group and put an lfm back up.

Third, even making Restless Isles free to play would not increase the number of players running those quests. Neither are particularly fun and the raid is long dead. The only reason to run them now is the entries in the Monster Manual. Threnal is one they should make free to play because you'd probably get more people running it.

We appear to disagree on what we consider fun.

I like the catacomb series myself, but if you run this solo (or with just hireling(s)) it can feel tedious and in some parts like you have done this before. But for a purely undead feel and the story behind it it is very rich.

I also like STK, Sharn and Necro.

Restless Isles biggest issue is the same issue people have with House Cannith Quests/Raid - Complicated to get there. Restless Isles Pre-Raid is designed in such a way that team work is by far the best solution to completion. I actually wish more raids followed with similar examples. Raids like VoN, Abbot and DQ did, but they also don't suffer from the flagging quests being on a map that does not draw out on screen.

[Oliphant]

This is an interesting idea. I hate Catacombs, but I still run it every life. (Glutton for punishment or something like that, I suppose...) I think letting the player choose whether they want TP, the item, or whatever else is on offer would be best. Though, if you removed Catacombs, you're removing 72 Silver Flame favor - and that could be problematic.

Glutton for Punishment should be one of the unique named items you can choose for closing out Catacombs

[Deadlock]

Maybe they should prune out some of the quests proven to be no fun.

It's lunacy to remove quests just because one individual or another doesn't like it. You're free to skip anything you don't like and whatever you don't like someone else will.

A lot of content has had it's day in the sun and I'd be happy with either the TP price being reduced or it being made entirely F2P. Likewise happy for some creative discounted bundles following storylines in the same way that saga's do.

If you make the one-time TP bonus at 3k, 4k and 5k repeatable then you're also encouraging people to run more content, even if it's just a fast zip through to get TP to buy stuff.

[bsquishwizzy]

Ok so you are new and you want to jump into the game in 2016?

Do you want to play Menace of the Underdark or Shadowfell? I'm not sure I can recommend that at the normal price of $29 each, for the slimmest option, not in 2016. The gear is all obsolete now, although you can get end rewards from the Wheloon and Stormhorns quests that will get you in the ok-gear-zone immediately.

Do you want to play iconics? Pay $49 for Shadowfell then, or spend 1,295 TP for each - that adds up fast.

Do you want to play epics? Then you definitely want to buy Epic Destinies at 995 TP.

If you want to play other quests not on the following list, you will need to go VIP for $8-10 per month or buy some packs (thousands more TP) or pay more for Menace of the Underdark ($49).

http://ddowiki.com/page/Guide_to_Free_to_Play#Quest_List

Stat tomes used to drop in quest chest, but not really anymore, so expect to pay for stat tomes you desire. If you buy the stat tomes, don't expect that your character can keep up with the toons with little TR wings, it still will not.

--------

I'm probably biased as I think the MotU paywall is what killed the DDO population. I own all of what DDO was selling when it comes to MotU and Shadowfell and I would gladly see it all given away in 2016 to new players or converted to affordable packs - this is just being realistic and I don't think it devalues future expansions to be realistic that time has moved on since these came out. However, I would never recommend anymore expansions dividing the population. I will admit folks still play the expansions, especially the Shadowfell quests, so that's some positive evidence they were not a total fail (I have to be honest, if not generous).

I guess this is a downside to Premium as well. It's great that a game has so many quests to run. Kinda sucks having to buy them all, especially when the F2P "tease" about acquiring TP for favor is now antiquated.

I always thought MoUD and Shadowfell as expansions was a bad idea. Not only did it screw-over VIPs, but now in order to play you need the Ebberon packs, the two expansions, AND Epic Destinies (basic gameplay, in my opinion, should come standard).

And it might explain why you have a lot of old members who have invested in the game over the years still playing, but not a lot of new ones. New players start figuring out the angle, see how much they'd have to shell out for the game, and it acts like a disincentive.

[nokowi]

It's lunacy to remove quests just because one individual or another doesn't like it.

This!

Players need to stop asking the game be designed solely around what they individually like, and accept that there should be material that others like but they dislike.

[Taimasan]

Ok so you are new and you want to jump into the game in 2016?

Do you want to play Menace of the Underdark or Shadowfell? I'm not sure I can recommend that at the normal price of $29 each, for the slimmest option, not in 2016. The gear is all obsolete now, although you can get end rewards from the Wheloon and Stormhorns quests that will get you in the ok-gear-zone immediately.

Do you want to play iconics? Pay $49 for Shadowfell then, or spend 1,295 TP for each - that adds up fast.

Do you want to play epics? Then you definitely want to buy Epic Destinies at 995 TP.

If you want to play other quests not on the following list, you will need to go VIP for $8-10 per month or buy some packs (thousands more TP) or pay more for Menace of the Underdark ($49).

http://ddowiki.com/page/Guide_to_Free_to_Play#Quest_List

Stat tomes used to drop in quest chest, but not really anymore, so expect to pay for stat tomes you desire. If you buy the stat tomes, don't expect that your character can keep up with the toons with little TR wings, it still will not.

--------

I'm probably biased as I think the MotU paywall is what killed the DDO population. I own all of what DDO was selling when it comes to MotU and Shadowfell and I would gladly see it all given away in 2016 to new players or converted to affordable packs - this is just being realistic and I don't think it devalues future expansions to be realistic that time has moved on since these came out. However, I would never recommend anymore expansions dividing the population. I will admit folks still play the expansions, especially the Shadowfell quests, so that's some positive evidence they were not a total fail (I have to be honest, if not generous).


I agree as content gets older they should mark it down. Only reason why I got MotU and Shadowfell is because I got them dirt cheap for like 5 bucks a piece deluxe editions on black Friday. Otherwise I would not own the content.

[Oliphant]

It's lunacy to remove quests just because one individual or another doesn't like it. You're free to skip anything you don't like and whatever you don't like someone else will.

A lot of content has had it's day in the sun and I'd be happy with either the TP price being reduced or it being made entirely F2P. Likewise happy for some creative discounted bundles following storylines in the same way that saga's do.

If you make the one-time TP bonus at 3k, 4k and 5k repeatable then you're also encouraging people to run more content, even if it's just a fast zip through to get TP to buy stuff.

I said prove, not beat up a strawman proof

[Chai]

The gear from those expansions is not obsolete. Those levels are just play through levels rather than the cap. After you play through them, you get better gear.

[knightgf]

I will admit that new players definitely get the short end of the stick if they wish to play, considering how old this game is and how unforgiving it can be to those who are inexperienced or expect it to be just like tabletop, in addition to all the stuff you have to buy. I definitely agree that new players should get deals, as should VIP of course. It's kinda hard to give just new players exclusive deals without getting VIP involved, however. Here are some ideas to pile on the table:



New players who sign up for the first time get a email good for 25% off their first adventure pack they purchase. This can combine with any sales on adventure packs.
When a new player reaches level 10/15/20 for the very first time on any character, they get a coupon good for 100/150/200 Turbine Points. This coupon is once per account, and cannot be gotten again on different servers.


But wait, what about returning players? Those are just as important as new players and deserve a little 'welcome back' bonus (Besides a so-called loot boost to those who are inactive) for returning. For those type of players, I can think of these ideas:




Players who have returned from 6 months of inactivity get a 5% stacking store discount on one cart* of items.
Players who have returned from 12 months of inactivity get a 10% stacking store discount on one cart* of items and receive a email good for a self-use guest pass of the latest premium content.
Players who have returned from 18 months or longer of inactivity get a 15% stacking store discount on one cart* of items, a self-use guest pass of the latest premium content and a Siberys Spirit Cake^!

(*One cart is equal to however many items can fit in a shopping shot at the DDO store.)
(^Can also be any sort of complementary bonus.)


And then of course there are VIP players. At this point, my brain is fried, and many attempts to persuade Turbine to make VIP more beneficial have failed, so I won't bother.

[janave]

Content is the most important bottleneck for getting new players, the 2nd one is probably p2progress, no way to "catch up" as a new player (no matter how dedicated) to a semi-casual playing several hours a week on VIP exp, Pots, and the Occasional Ottos Boxes, Dice Rolls for bump. No way to earn or loot equivalent boosts in the game.

Im pretty sure out of 10 players i invited 8 stopped playing right the time they realised they have no way to get into the range of top players regardless of how much time they invest.

I would not start today as a f2p or even as a premium player today in DDO. VIP works tho, the monthly free TP + lots of playtime can open up the other mandatory perks like Epic Destinies.

[RistoffDervish]

I will admit that new players definitely get the short end of the stick if they wish to play, considering how old this game is and how unforgiving it can be to those who are inexperienced or expect it to be just like tabletop, in addition to all the stuff you have to buy. I definitely agree that new players should get deals, as should VIP of course. It's kinda hard to give just new players exclusive deals without getting VIP involved, however. Here are some ideas to pile on the table:



New players who sign up for the first time get a email good for 25% off their first adventure pack they purchase. This can combine with any sales on adventure packs.
When a new player reaches level 10/15/20 for the very first time on any character, they get a coupon good for 100/150/200 Turbine Points. This coupon is once per account, and cannot be gotten again on different servers.


But wait, what about returning players? Those are just as important as new players and deserve a little 'welcome back' bonus (Besides a so-called loot boost to those who are inactive) for returning. For those type of players, I can think of these ideas:




Players who have returned from 6 months of inactivity get a 5% stacking store discount on one cart* of items.
Players who have returned from 12 months of inactivity get a 10% stacking store discount on one cart* of items and receive a email good for a self-use guest pass of the latest premium content.
Players who have returned from 18 months or longer of inactivity get a 15% stacking store discount on one cart* of items, a self-use guest pass of the latest premium content and a Siberys Spirit Cake^!

(*One cart is equal to however many items can fit in a shopping shot at the DDO store.)
(^Can also be any sort of complementary bonus.)


And then of course there are VIP players. At this point, my brain is fried, and many attempts to persuade Turbine to make VIP more beneficial have failed, so I won't bother.

I like the welcome back bonus ideas, but I don't think they have a cart anymore in the store. I could be wrong...

[Amundir]

Content is the most important bottleneck for getting new players, the 2nd one is probably p2progress, no way to "catch up" as a new player (no matter how dedicated) to a semi-casual playing several hours a week on VIP exp, Pots, and the Occasional Ottos Boxes, Dice Rolls for bump. No way to earn or loot equivalent boosts in the game.

Im pretty sure out of 10 players i invited 8 stopped playing right the time they realised they have no way to get into the range of top players regardless of how much time they invest.

I would not start today as a f2p or even as a premium player today in DDO. VIP works tho, the monthly free TP + lots of playtime can open up the other mandatory perks like Epic Destinies.

I'm confused by this argument. Your view is that a new player cannot catch up to a current player? Ever?

And there is no such thing as 'monthly free TP'. Your paying for VIP.

[Tilomere]

One can buy most of the dungeons for ~$60 or less off of a steam or holiday sale. Black Friday or Christmas coming up will both work.

[Astoroth]

Do you want to play Menace of the Underdark or Shadowfell? I'm not sure I can recommend that at the normal price of $29 each, for the slimmest option, not in 2016.

Do you want to play epics? Then you definitely want to buy Epic Destinies at 995 TP.

Stat tomes used to drop in quest chest, but not really anymore, so expect to pay for stat tomes you desire. If you buy the stat tomes, don't expect that your character can keep up with the toons with little TR wings, it still will not.

I'm probably biased as I think the MotU paywall is what killed the DDO population.

Both MOTU and Shadowfell are good values, by far the best way to spend real money on the game. But not buying crippled versions with tp from inside the game, but from the ddo marketplace they even come with some tp. MOTU comes with druid and epic destinies, as well as 4 older adventure packs. Its a way better deal than buying tp then trying to buy the parts individually in the broken in game store, that doesn't even have a cart to bundle stuff. Where's that name your own discount bundle offer now Turbine, oh yeah you got a lame store designed to be used on a phone, duh.

Stat and skill tomes are seriously broken, not only are the drops low. But upgrades are far more common. The upgrade often being useless if you're not having the prequel, especially with skill tomes. Turbine needs to ditch the upgrade paradigm for tomes.

What is killing DDO from the time of MOTU and on is the increased level spread, declining population spread out over a much greater level range. Got some people still tring, and some people that etr. And raids not matching up with end game levels or gear. Turbines lack of interest in making all their raids relevant has been a big downfall for both DDO and LOTRO.


First, Catacombs should probably always have been free to play. The quests are boring, the chain gets to feel like an unending slog, and the experience earned is low.
Pretty sure this is included with shadowfell. As is the PDK iconic. That's is the version form the ddo marketplace.


Threnal is one they should make free to play because you'd probably get more people running it.
Maybe but Threnal, Deleras and TOEE have exp bonus items. Cant see them ever being made f2p, as exp things are mainly a ddo store thing. A lot of those chains with weird level splits don't get much interest, threnal, tangleroot and sorrowdusk. I think its more to do with them being chains and you can't really join in progress and still get the chain reward. Though level standardization in those chains might help. reworking them to be a set of flagging quests and then an end quest woudl probably do a lot more to revive those areas though.


But the elephant in the room is that they recently added 2 million exp to each epic past life. That's the real steep investment for new and existing players alike. As the game is in decline make it more tedious and grindy, slick move there. Turbine needs to separate epic tring from maximum experience. Rename it destiny reincarnation, and just allow it whenever a person has 6 million exp in a sphere.

[Astoroth]

cart


Cart, ddo store, lol. Turbine went backwards in time, to when before shopping carts were invented.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

The suggestions to make any at-cost content totally Free To Play are simply not good suggestions at all, from a business perspective. It is not in Turbine's interests to immediately make that content free. Instead, you have to look at normal business sales progressions that could be possible, and specifically - permanent cost reduction of the pre-sale price structure for some Adventure Packs or other content in the DDO Store. What do I mean by this?

- Permanent 25% reduction in baseline cost for certain packs. Over time, this could increase to permanent 50 or 75% off the former baseline price. In this manner, a cost reduction could be performed at least 3 or more times without ever making it "free" but greatly increasing the sales potential for the pack. This is a compromise that works in Turbine's interests as well as the player base.

Remember, behind Sev and all the Game Developers are still some business minded professionals who concern themselves with Actuarial related quants/cost models and such ("bean counting"), and WB/Turbine must remain a "storefront" not just a free store. Now, are there quest packs that are considered so useless and lacking replay potential that they should start at 75% off permanent price? Arguable, I don't think any are that bad (and none so bad that they should simply be free).

[slarden]

If you think this is expensive you obviously never tried golfing.

[BigErkyKid]

If you think this is expensive you obviously never tried golfing.

The willingness to pay is not comparable.

Who spends hundreds of dollars on a random 10 years old game from the start?

Turbine hasn't had an active marketing strategy for ddo in years. The sales are obscure and mostly aimed at established players, from what I can see when I bother to check.

Why is the store filled with rubbish? Why aren't there more f2p packs?

I am pretty sure it would not hurt revenue to release a few heroic packs.

To the OP: the reason why what you suggest has not been done yet is not because it is not a good idea, rather because no one is seriously looking at these issues. This kind of thread pops up every few months and a have yet to see a producer response to any of them.

[Coyopa]

Pretty sure this is included with shadowfell. As is the PDK iconic. That's is the version form the ddo marketplace.
This I did not know. Thank you for the information.



Maybe but Threnal, Deleras and TOEE have exp bonus items. Cant see them ever being made f2p, as exp things are mainly a ddo store thing. A lot of those chains with weird level splits don't get much interest, threnal, tangleroot and sorrowdusk. I think its more to do with them being chains and you can't really join in progress and still get the chain reward. Though level standardization in those chains might help. reworking them to be a set of flagging quests and then an end quest woudl probably do a lot more to revive those areas though.
Threnal's really the only one with weird level splits. Starts out at base level 9, then goes to level 8, and then changes again, if I recall correctly. I know the level goes down after you finish the East excavation site. In my opinion, Threnal also doesn't have very good experience, either.

When it comes to Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk, I think you're absolutely right about the fact they're chains and you can join in progress and get the chain reward. It also doesn't help that they're quite long chains. Tangleroot starts at level 3 (5 on elite) and runs through level 7 (9 on elite), while Sorrowdusk starts at level 6 and runs through level 10. The other problem with these chains is there is only two quests per level for each. So, if you're on a TR and you're running all the quests for each level before advancing to quests for the next higher level, you're stuck running all over hell and creation doing two quests here and two quests there. And, of course, the experience for those two chains isn't terrific overall, either. (I feel like there are a couple in Tangleroot that are actually pretty good for the level, but that isn't until the 2nd level 4 quest, while the 1st level 7 quest goes back to absolutely horrible experience. I don't understand why we even have to make that stupid run through the outer fortress at that point. Just let us go right into the inner fortress, instead.)



But the elephant in the room is that they recently added 2 million exp to each epic past life. That's the real steep investment for new and existing players alike. As the game is in decline make it more tedious and grindy, slick move there. Turbine needs to separate epic tring from maximum experience. Rename it destiny reincarnation, and just allow it whenever a person has 6 million exp in a sphere.

This. I totally do not understand why epic reincarnations are tied to your overall experience, rather than to the karma you've got in a destiny sphere. I also see no reason why epic reincarnating should make us level 20 again, especially now that it takes even longer to get through the early epic levels. I would spend a lot more time at 30 if I could epic reincarnate and remain level 30. Since I can't, then unless I'm on a build that can solo really well, I'm not terribly motivated to run back to 30. Though, I do think on Coyopa's current life that I've actually managed to set myself up for an easy 2nd epic life this time. His next life will be a bladeforged warlock specifically so I have an easy build that can spend some time racking up a few epic past lives before I TR again.

[BigErkyKid]

This. I totally do not understand why epic reincarnations are tied to your overall experience, rather than to the karma you've got in a destiny sphere. I also see no reason why epic reincarnating should make us level 20 again, especially now that it takes even longer to get through the early epic levels.

Because p2skip items are a heavy source of revenue. The easier it is to TR /eTR, the fewer XP pots / XP tomes they sell.

In a game where a lot (I dare say the majority) of people are TRing in some for or another, this must not be small potatoes.

Yes, it is way "harder" (i.e. grindier) now to gain ePLs than it used to be, but that's not seen necessarily as a bad thing by Turbine.

I will say for instance that I strongly suspect that the new Legendary difficulty has more to do with their desire to break away from dupped raid timers than anything else (probably also invalidate mortal fear, which was dupped a lot too).

[Coyopa]

Because p2skip items are a heavy source of revenue. The easier it is to TR /eTR, the fewer XP pots / XP tomes they sell.
A fair point, I suppose.


I will say for instance that I strongly suspect that the new Legendary difficulty has more to do with their desire to break away from dupped raid timers than anything else (probably also invalidate mortal fear, which was dupped a lot too).

I seem to recall this being confirmed by one of the developers or Cordovan back when this change was still in development. I don't have any documentation handy and I'm too lazy to go look it up. So, don't ask for any. :)

[erethizon]

Turbine needs to separate epic tring from maximum experience. Rename it destiny reincarnation, and just allow it whenever a person has 6 million exp in a sphere.

That is actually a really good idea. This would enable people to stay at level 30 without feeling like they are wasting time. It would also make high level gear worth getting. As it stands now, if you show me a really nice piece of level 30 gear, I will show you an item that will be used for a few hours at the most while I run quests on epic normal for heart seeds. Gear that has a high minimum level has no value because there is no reason to stay at the cap.

What they really need to do is to allow us to craft (possibly with raid ingredients) two levels of gear. One has a minimum level of 1 and the other has a minimum level of 20. The minimum level 20 gear should be good enough that you would still gladly wear it at level 30 and the minimum level 1 gear should be good enough to wear at level 18. I don't raid because raids give gear that is too high in level. If I am heroic TRing I want gear that is level 5 or less. If I am epic TRing (which I normally don't do without heroic TRing as well) I want gear that has a minimum level of 20 or less so I can immediately use it. I am currently playing through a few Epic TR lives without doing a heroic TR at the same time (a first for me) and I am playing entirely with gear that has a minimum level of 20 or less. I don't change my gear ever during the 10 epic levels and thus all the epic gear I find gets sold to a merchant no matter how powerful and desirable it is. It has no value because I know I won't be able to use it in a few hours or a few days at most.

[Ausdoerrt]

I would vote for the latter, to permanently package into VIP, because there is not as much incentive to be VIP in the current game we have where time has allowed for many TRs and characters that open Elite the first time on 3rd life and "play like a VIP" for everything but the Gold Dice roll.

Careful about giving them ideas to remove TR access to open Elite.



Maybe they should prune out some of the quests proven to be no fun.

So, like, everything since U24? :P

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

That is actually a really good idea. This would enable people to stay at level 30 without feeling like they are wasting time. It would also make high level gear worth getting. As it stands now, if you show me a really nice piece of level 30 gear, I will show you an item that will be used for a few hours at the most while I run quests on epic normal for heart seeds. Gear that has a high minimum level has no value because there is no reason to stay at the cap.

What they really need to do is to allow us to craft (possibly with raid ingredients) two levels of gear. One has a minimum level of 1 and the other has a minimum level of 20. The minimum level 20 gear should be good enough that you would still gladly wear it at level 30 and the minimum level 1 gear should be good enough to wear at level 18. I don't raid because raids give gear that is too high in level. If I am heroic TRing I want gear that is level 5 or less. If I am epic TRing (which I normally don't do without heroic TRing as well) I want gear that has a minimum level of 20 or less so I can immediately use it. I am currently playing through a few Epic TR lives without doing a heroic TR at the same time (a first for me) and I am playing entirely with gear that has a minimum level of 20 or less. I don't change my gear ever during the 10 epic levels and thus all the epic gear I find gets sold to a merchant no matter how powerful and desirable it is. It has no value because I know I won't be able to use it in a few hours or a few days at most.

Yep. I don't get very excited about level 29-30 gear because I know I usually spend a few hours of game time there.

Honestly I don't even think I have ANY gear that I use that is that high of a level because I just don't have much use for it and inventory space is valuable!

[Coyopa]

Yep. I don't get very excited about level 29-30 gear because I know I usually spend a few hours of game time there.

Honestly I don't even think I have ANY gear that I use that is that high of a level because I just don't have much use for it and inventory space is valuable!

Highest I have is ML28 and it's just one piece on one character: Epic Laurel Helix. I happen to have a spare one sitting in my shared bank, but only because it dropped for me, I was soloing, and I figured I might eventually perhaps possibly maybe use it on another character someday.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

Highest I have is ML28 and it's just one piece on one character: Epic Laurel Helix. I happen to have a spare one sitting in my shared bank, but only because it dropped for me, I was soloing, and I figured I might eventually perhaps possibly maybe use it on another character someday.

Same. Level 28. Boots from DOJ.

[PermaBanned]

Well this thread took an odd turn. The title (and presumably premis) is that it's expensive to break into a ten year old game and play the upper levels - well, duh. But what get's me is all this talk about Categombs, STK and what not; this was about "upper levels," was it not?

The required investment for a new player to "be in the game" with a ten year old vet character isn't that much, relatively speaking. Even without the uber deals on Black Friday & such, a new player wouldn't need to drop more than $200 - and that's assuming they're immediately buying things they eventually will but don't yet need. Remember, a new player isn't going to be crushing content at vetastic speeds; they're going to be learning, exploring, making mistakes and their initial supply of content will last them (quite?) a while. Levels 15 -> 20 aren't going to start out as an after school/work snack, and Wheeloon or Eaveningstar will be their Korthos.

Question:
New guy loads, installs & plays for the first time on an Iconic today: how long before they actually need Epic Destinys? And from taking 20, how long before they actually need Shadowfell (or for that matter Legendary) level content?

It's rehtorical, but point being new players don't need X,Y&Z out of the gate; they just need X.

[BOgre]

DDO - Free to Play.
replayability - fair.
modest investment for Premie.
replayability - infinite.
$100 investment for VIP.
replayability - infinite+

Titanfall2 - $80
quality - fair, replayability - nil.

Kingdom Hearts - $80
quality - zero, replayability - absolute zero.

Other MMOs - STEEP$$$
quality - meh, immersion - blech, gameplay - what gameplay?, PvP, Trolls, Goldselling, Spam, annoyance - infinite. Replayability - are you kidding???

Get a grip ppl. DDO is by far the best game at the best price you'll ever play.

[McFlay]

I really don't see how its expensive...charge 50 bucks worth of tps, buy a few packs, and you are good to go...the same exact thing I did when I started years ago. Just between vale, necro4, free content, and random loot you have access to a pretty huge assortment of gear...enough to at least be viable in high level content...and that is just two packs.

[Oliphant]

Premium is infinite, VIP is only renting but I digress

To boil down the point, aren't the expansions a bit expensive at the normal price in 2016? Imo, the expansion sale prices should be the normal prices now

[nokowi]

Well this thread took an odd turn. The title (and presumably premis) is that it's expensive to break into a ten year old game and play the upper levels - well, duh. But what get's me is all this talk about Categombs, STK and what not; this was about "upper levels," was it not?

The required investment for a new player to "be in the game" with a ten year old vet character isn't that much, relatively speaking. Even without the uber deals on Black Friday & such, a new player wouldn't need to drop more than $200 - and that's assuming they're immediately buying things they eventually will but don't yet need. Remember, a new player isn't going to be crushing content at vetastic speeds; they're going to be learning, exploring, making mistakes and their initial supply of content will last them (quite?) a while. Levels 15 -> 20 aren't going to start out as an after school/work snack, and Wheeloon or Eaveningstar will be their Korthos.

Question:
New guy loads, installs & plays for the first time on an Iconic today: how long before they actually need Epic Destinys? And from taking 20, how long before they actually need Shadowfell (or for that matter Legendary) level content?

It's rehtorical, but point being new players don't need X,Y&Z out of the gate; they just need X.


I saw a player say the high level expansion cost them a couple dollars. This, to me, shows that the cost is not high.

[Oliphant]

Get a grip ppl. DDO is by far the best game at the best price you'll ever play.

I've spent huge sums on this game (more than a thousand I would guess), including giving away TP and expansions to many other players. I started at a time when the community was playing heroics and you did not need to invest much at first. They got me invested bit by bit, not by making me buy old expansions at full price. I looked up Kingdom Hearts website and checked Amazon. As I expected their newest content is about what you said it costs (their newest, pre-order game is $60) but their old content is deeply discounted, $10-20 on Amazon. I'm suggesting that DDO have nice things like a thriving, large population (i.e. use common sense and lower prices for old content over time). I'm happy to support the game and I'm not mad about prices; I just think they should discount some old content and get new players invested; put some gas on this thing. People say this is an old game like it's a liability. They already made a massive, complicated game - why not fully utilize this valuable property (market it).

[Oliphant]

I saw a player say the high level expansion cost them a couple dollars. This, to me, shows that the cost is not high.

See my post just before your post. The sale price is awesome price. Buy two, they're small!

(btw - all the prices I mentioned in OP were quotes from current market)

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

I saw a player say the high level expansion cost them a couple dollars. This, to me, shows that the cost is not high.

MOTU was about $3 when it was on sale around christmas. That was when i bought it.

[Oliphant]

^^More evidence that expansions at $29-$49 in 2016 is a bit high

Every day is a good day for new players to get expansions, not just 3ish times per year

[Oliphant]

I have to admit that buying the expansions on sale and then waiting until the sale ends to give them away is fun

[Hazelnut]

^^More evidence that expansions at $29-$49 in 2016 is a bit high

Every day is a good day for new players to get expansions, not just 3ish times per year

That sounds suspiciously to me like a veiled suggestion that Turbine needs to create another expansion at $29 and cut the price of the older expansions in half.

[nokowi]

^^More evidence that expansions at $29-$49 in 2016 is a bit high

Every day is a good day for new players to get expansions, not just 3ish times per year

Sales are what get FTP players to become PTP, and eventually VIP.

Its basic marketing to charge the lazy people (like me by the way) full price and then offer steep discounts to those willing to wait.

Buy stuff when its on sale if you don't want to pay full price.

You can complain on the forums, but it won't change marketing 101.

[slarden]

The willingness to pay is not comparable.

Who spends hundreds of dollars on a random 10 years old game from the start?

Turbine hasn't had an active marketing strategy for ddo in years. The sales are obscure and mostly aimed at established players, from what I can see when I bother to check.

Why is the store filled with rubbish? Why aren't there more f2p packs?

I am pretty sure it would not hurt revenue to release a few heroic packs.

To the OP: the reason why what you suggest has not been done yet is not because it is not a good idea, rather because no one is seriously looking at these issues. This kind of thread pops up every few months and a have yet to see a producer response to any of them.

Willingness to pay is dependent on each person. If people don't want to pay for the packs they already have the option to work for TP which is much easier than it used to be.

From what I can tell Turbine does have a strategy. Sell high-priced products to vets that have disposable income and want to progress quicker.

A typical board game marketed to gamers is around $75 now.

A baseball game is going to set you back over $100 for a few hours.

Greens fees and a golf cart- yeah much more.

For all the complaints I heard about DDO - I think price is the most ridiculous.

[FranOhmsford]

Threnal's really the only one with weird level splits. Starts out at base level 9, then goes to level 8, and then changes again, if I recall correctly. I know the level goes down after you finish the East excavation site. In my opinion, Threnal also doesn't have very good experience, either.

Threnal actually does have decent {not VoN 3 or Shadow Crypt though} xp in it but the level splits tend to kill it so you don't notice.


When it comes to Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk, I think you're absolutely right about the fact they're chains and you can join in progress and get the chain reward. It also doesn't help that they're quite long chains. Tangleroot starts at level 3 (5 on elite) and runs through level 7 (9 on elite), while Sorrowdusk starts at level 6 and runs through level 10. The other problem with these chains is there is only two quests per level for each. So, if you're on a TR and you're running all the quests for each level before advancing to quests for the next higher level, you're stuck running all over hell and creation doing two quests here and two quests there. And, of course, the experience for those two chains isn't terrific overall, either. (I feel like there are a couple in Tangleroot that are actually pretty good for the level, but that isn't until the 2nd level 4 quest, while the 1st level 7 quest goes back to absolutely horrible experience. I don't understand why we even have to make that stupid run through the outer fortress at that point. Just let us go right into the inner fortress, instead.)

I've suggested time and time again that the Level Ranges of Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk be constricted down to 4-6 and 7-9.

All it would take is moving:
the two lvl 3s in Tangleroot to Lvl 4
the two lvl 7s in Tangleroot to Lvl 6
the two lvl 6s in Sorrowdusk to Lvl 7
and
the two lvl 10s in Sorrowdusk to Lvl 9.

Yes it would still be a larger level range than most chains but it would be a lot better than right now!


The Devs moved Cabal For One to Base Lvl 14 when E-GH was released - They can move these!


This. I totally do not understand why epic reincarnations are tied to your overall experience, rather than to the karma you've got in a destiny sphere. I also see no reason why epic reincarnating should make us level 20 again, especially now that it takes even longer to get through the early epic levels. I would spend a lot more time at 30 if I could epic reincarnate and remain level 30. Since I can't, then unless I'm on a build that can solo really well, I'm not terribly motivated to run back to 30. Though, I do think on Coyopa's current life that I've actually managed to set myself up for an easy 2nd epic life this time. His next life will be a bladeforged warlock specifically so I have an easy build that can spend some time racking up a few epic past lives before I TR again.

ERing and being Lvl 30 still is a non-starter.

But I agree absolutely that the extra 2 mil xp required each and every time is just wrong!

Simple answer = Allow people to ER and IR at 28 and with enough Karma in one Sphere to do so {Have Seeds start dropping the instant a player hits 28 rather than 30}.
Unless you have an alt farming Seeds for you chances are you'll still be 29 or even 30 each time before ERing or IRing anyway.

[FranOhmsford]

Willingness to pay is dependent on each person. If people don't want to pay for the packs they already have the option to work for TP which is much easier than it used to be.

From what I can tell Turbine does have a strategy. Sell high-priced products to vets that have disposable income and want to progress quicker.

A typical board game marketed to gamers is around $75 now.

A baseball game is going to set you back over $100 for a few hours.

Greens fees and a golf cart- yeah much more.

For all the complaints I heard about DDO - I think price is the most ridiculous.

And you can get two months VIP for the cost of watching a Movie at the cinema {with Drink and Popcorn}.

But we're not talking about BASE costs - We're talking about the upward spiral of costs in DDO - It keeps going up....So Newbies now who have to start from the beginning are much further behind!

[Oliphant]

To clarify, I meant MotU and Shadowfell are a bit pricey now they are a few years old. I didn't mean new expansions (although I absolutely do not recommend more expansions)

[Coyopa]

To clarify, I meant MotU and Shadowfell are a bit pricey now they are a few years old. I didn't mean new expansions (although I absolutely do not recommend more expansions)

I think they're smart enough to know they'll have a hard time selling any more expansions since a good portion of the playerbase feels especially ill-used after Shadowfell. I know I do and I know I'm not the only one. I bought Shadowfell no-questions-asked because Menace of the Underdark was good (in my opinion). Since Shadowfell is so terrible, I would have to think pretty hard about whether to spend money on another expansion. Especially when they're doing no marketing otherwise and just allowing their playerbase to attrite.

[CSQ]

This is where marketing has dropped the ball. Why wouldn't you offer new account VIPs a package deal? Sign up for 6 months of VIP and get MoTU for free. Sign up for a year and you get Shadowfell as well. This seems like such a no brainer that it is almost frustrating to me as someone who wants to see the game grow that they don't do this. We have lots of new players in our guild and I was talking to a couple the other day about epic play and that's when I found out the staggering price of Motu. New players level up very fast to 20 so in the span of 2 weeks you want to sell them a VIP subscription then a couple weeks later hit them up for $50 to continue into epic play? Come on.

This is a good idea; I'd turn it around and say "Buy an expansion and get X months of premium free" instead, but this is not a terrible idea. It would certainly make it easier to get into the game for new players.

[Hydian]

DDO - Free to Play.
replayability - fair.
replayability - infinite+

It is somewhere between those extremes.


Titanfall2 - $80
Kingdom Hearts - $80

They're more like $60 and won't be for very long. It's not a good comparison anyway since neither of those games are MMORPGs. Titanfall is multiplayer at least.


Other MMOs - STEEP$$$
quality - meh, immersion - blech, gameplay - what gameplay?, PvP, Trolls, Goldselling, Spam, annoyance - infinite. Replayability - are you kidding???

Plenty of MMOs that require no more $$$ investment than DDO. Plenty of MMOs that have none of the issues you mention. Plenty of MMOs that have plenty of replayability. DDO is certainly a fun game, but it is not by any means the only good one to ever be made.

Other people's comparisons versus completely unrelated forms of entertainment, or even versus playing sports are simply absurd. DDO is cheaper than buying a lear jet to fly around in, who knew? and how is any of that actually relevant? If I want to go play golf, I'm not looking for a similar experience to DDO. Same with the movies or taking my kid to a baseball game. Board games are social activities and again, not anything like playing an MMO. If you want to make comparisons, at least keep it relevant...at least the Titanfall and Kingdom Hearts examples were in the same general realm.


My take on it is this. My guild played when the game was first released. They all moved on long before it went F2P. There is no way that I could entice them back with the current costs even with my ability to defray a lot of it in game. As soon as they saw that half of the content that we used to play together was paywalled off, they'd quit, let alone how much of the new content required cash...and these are people who don't have issues with subscriptions generally speaking (a bunch of them subscribe to LotRO among other games for example). I'm not exactly sure how to reduce the costs but still allow Turbine to make money, but there has to be a way to do it.

On the flip side of this, Turbine needs to spend more money on marketing and the developers need to spend more resources on new players rather than the end game. I know that people don't want to hear that, but the super completionist players who only come back and play for a couple of days when a new uber dungeon is released is not where Turbine's future is. They need new players, not people who have little incentive to continue playing.

One of the problems with DDO has always been that it lacked content...not just end game content, but content at all levels. Don't get me wrong, the dungeons are awesome! No game that I can think of can match the feel or attention to detail of the dungeons in DDO. Unfortunately, that is all that DDO has in terms of content and those dungeons take a lot of time to build. After ten years, games like EQ had multiple continents to explore. Most of the quests weren't nearly as immersive or extensive (I said most...some, like Greenmist, were pretty awesome) but there was always something else to do. I'd even argue that Warhammer Online was on par in terms of content with DDO if you bothered to leave the RvR lakes...there was a ton of stuff in that game that nobody bothered with. DDO offers really rich quests, but there are only a handful of them. Playing around with new character builds can only take you so far.

So what DDO is dealing with is a steep learning curve and a lack of content once a player gets up to speed. That doesn't make for a great combination even if the gameplay is a lot of fun. Throw in a pretty steep cost for the experience and no marketing and you can see why the game is floundering. Now, I have put a lot of money into DDO over the years...probably more than I should have...but I'd be hard pressed to tell someone else that it was a wise investment over whatever they are already playing.

[FranOhmsford]

Other people's comparisons versus completely unrelated forms of entertainment, or even versus playing sports are simply absurd. DDO is cheaper than buying a lear jet to fly around in, who knew? and how is any of that actually relevant?

Obvious Straw-Man is obvious.


If I want to go play golf, I'm not looking for a similar experience to DDO. Same with the movies or taking my kid to a baseball game. Board games are social activities and again, not anything like playing an MMO. If you want to make comparisons, at least keep it relevant...at least the Titanfall and Kingdom Hearts examples were in the same general realm.

Actually both Golf and the Movies are pretty good comparisons.

Golf because like DDO it's a long term investment and I mean REALLY long term {It has the same addictive properties as any MMO} - My Dad plays Golf almost daily since he retired and I dread to think how much he's spent on it over the years.

The Movies because it illustrates what good value for money the VIP subscription is!
2 hrs watching a Movie or up to 250 hours that month playing DDO - Your Choice!

The two Computer Games you mention you've already refuted as bad examples due to not being MMOs so you can't have it both ways - Those games are limited in scope and once finished are done - DDO isn't!
And unlike the Movies those games aren't 10 bucks each from the video store either - $60 or around £40 is a lot of money to spend on a single game that you may have finished within a week or two and never play again.
A 1 month VIP Subscription to try out DDO is vastly better value!

The true comparison of course would be DDO vs WoW or vs SW:ToR or vs EvE or any other MMO!
But VIP Subscriptions for each of those are probably quite similarly priced and it's in the minutiae and other costs as well as in the gameplay of each that the real comparisons are made.


My take on it is this. My guild played when the game was first released. They all moved on long before it went F2P. There is no way that I could entice them back with the current costs even with my ability to defray a lot of it in game. As soon as they saw that half of the content that we used to play together was paywalled off, they'd quit, let alone how much of the new content required cash...and these are people who don't have issues with subscriptions generally speaking (a bunch of them subscribe to LotRO among other games for example). I'm not exactly sure how to reduce the costs but still allow Turbine to make money, but there has to be a way to do it.

When this game was first released the entire game was paywalled off - You were required to pay a Subscription!
Those players paid then and at some point decided the game wasn't worth paying for {for them}, Now they at least get some of it FREE! {In fact the entire game has been proven by multiple players to be available completely FREE....Apart from the Expansions obviously and even then Black Friday offers massive discounts like Shadowfell for something like $3 last year.}.


On the flip side of this, Turbine needs to spend more money on marketing and the developers need to spend more resources on new players rather than the end game. I know that people don't want to hear that, but the super completionist players who only come back and play for a couple of days when a new uber dungeon is released is not where Turbine's future is. They need new players, not people who have little incentive to continue playing.

Yes DDO's marketing has never been good.

But you only have to look at the fact that the current Default Server pretty much doubles in size when it becomes the Default to know that this game still has a lot of newbies coming in - The problem is not hooking them but reeling them in! {oh and vets have got to stop throwing them back in the water too!}.


One of the problems with DDO has always been that it lacked content...not just end game content, but content at all levels. Don't get me wrong, the dungeons are awesome! No game that I can think of can match the feel or attention to detail of the dungeons in DDO. Unfortunately, that is all that DDO has in terms of content and those dungeons take a lot of time to build. After ten years, games like EQ had multiple continents to explore. Most of the quests weren't nearly as immersive or extensive (I said most...some, like Greenmist, were pretty awesome) but there was always something else to do. I'd even argue that Warhammer Online was on par in terms of content with DDO if you bothered to leave the RvR lakes...there was a ton of stuff in that game that nobody bothered with. DDO offers really rich quests, but there are only a handful of them. Playing around with new character builds can only take you so far.

DDO has tonnes of content now!

Yes more content is always good but the only reason vets think there's no content is because they've been her 5,6,7 even 10 years and have played every quest and raid many multiple times - Each time a new pack comes out they play it to Death for a few weeks then start complaining again that there's no content!

I'm not sure of exact numbers but we must be somewhere around 250-300 separate quests in DDO now!
Then add in all the Slayer Zones and Challenges!

We'd love more quests each update but 4 quests per update really isn't going to make a huge difference over 3!
I personally think we need the Devs to push out at least 8-12 different quests per update and even then we'd still have people complaining it wasn't enough!


So what DDO is dealing with is a steep learning curve and a lack of content once a player gets up to speed. That doesn't make for a great combination even if the gameplay is a lot of fun. Throw in a pretty steep cost for the experience and no marketing and you can see why the game is floundering. Now, I have put a lot of money into DDO over the years...probably more than I should have...but I'd be hard pressed to tell someone else that it was a wise investment over whatever they are already playing.

If you've already thrown a tonne of money into SW:ToR or Everquest or WoW or whatever then no....Dropping that and starting completely afresh in DDO with the cost of getting up to speed is not a wise investment in monetary terms.
HOWEVER:
If you no longer enjoy that game that you've spent so much money on and want to try something different then a single month's VIP and a purchase of let's say 500 TP {around $15 total spend} so you can immediately buy EDs upon hitting Lvl 20 is a very small cost to try out a new game.
You can farm up the TP for Shared Bank and Tomes.
If you find you enjoy the game then just keep your VIP subscription going until you stop enjoying it or until you're ready and willing to lay down the cost of picking up all those packs that you will have to buy to play again once you drop VIP. You can buy the two Expansions when they go on sale.






P.S. Those who put down a month's subscription are more likely to actually give the game a month {to get their money's worth} rather than a single day!
If they're not addicted in a month they're never going to be!

[Nuclear_Elvis]

I just want to dive into this thread again to say - you can play this game for free, even if you started today, brand new, to DDO, and find success very quickly. I have hundreds of guild members who are proof positive of this. Some are FTP, some are Premium, some are VIP, but none are over-the-top big spenders in the game.

Finding a good Guild (and additionally, doesn't hurt if it's large) -- is one of the key reasons that players can succeed here. When you're able to log in and immediately connect with Guild members who are around your level and who can open a quest at Hard or Elite difficulty, it's a huge boost for new-to-game/returning players. Within 3-4 months, most all new-to-gamers have True Reincarnated (TR) the first time and are "on their way" in the game.

I give very general advice on paying in DDO: maximize your money, to stretch it as far as it will go. I don't try and educate any/all to be totally Free To Play, as I recognize this game is a business and I fully support Turbine making revenue, but I look out for my Guild members to ensure their money is buying them the maximum possible benefit for their gameplay. Simple things players should do:

- If choosing to be Premium and Pay-as-you-go, only buy Turbine Points during the Double- or Triple-Bonus Points sales events, and buy them in as much bulk/large quantity as you can at that point. A going perspective - dropping $199 on the largest Turbine Point package is the equivalent of paying for 2 x years of VIP, yet the numbers play out that you can get more long-term benefit from Premium compared to VIP.

- Buy any/all Account upgrades at the DDO Store only during a Sales Week or special deep-cut sale event. Adventure Packs are top priority, but folded in are all the Monster Manuals as well (esp volumes 1 [if FTP] and 2 [if FTP or Premium]), due to their rewards being primarily Turbine Points (TP). Volumes 3-7 are lower priority but still important due to their ability to be like small XP potions constantly running in the background for your character(s). Look at the ddowiki at the Adventure Packs page (http://ddowiki.com/page/Adventure_Packs), sort by the column header "Favor per 100 TP" to see the packs that yield the most Favor for your TP spent, and make that your purchase priority order by default (although Necro is not sold as a package in current DDO Store).

- Make Devil Assault (DA) adventure pack your #1 purchase priority if you reach level 20 and don't own it yet. DA is the means to an end for free TR, due to Tokens of the Twelve dropping more readily from that pack (Epic Normal, specifically). I have met players who have spent over 10k TP on Heroic Hearts of Wood, who didn't know about DA's capability to produce Tokens/free Hearts. While Turbine loves these kinds of ignorant players, I'd rather see those willing to spend, spend on things that help improve their gameplay (i.e. that same player will still spend money Turbine, just spend it on different things).

Turbine doesn't wave a banner around showing players how to be efficient with their real money and TP in the game, but some of us do help out those who are willing to listen and learn. I don't see any harm in all this - Turbine still gets money, they simply get money in different ways. I think it has to be stated also, a "satisfied customer" that feels they are getting value for their money spent may be encouraged to spend again. I'd rather we have hundreds of satisfied customer/players paying for Premium, than worrying about VIP subscription numbers here.

Expansion content is totally the opposite of the OP's statement - you can buy Expansion content now for up to 85% off the normal/list price during special sales events. With that potential, you're able to actually lessen the total cost to play this game compared to when those Expansions were "new" to the game.

[Taimasan]

Just re-affirms to me that if you are not willing to drop $100 bucks just to participate that your not the type of the player Turbine wants to retain anyway. They need whales. New players who buy a pack then reads the fine print come and go all the time.

[Oliphant]

Just re-affirms to me that if you are not willing to drop $100 bucks just to participate that your not the type of the player Turbine wants to retain anyway. They need whales. New players who buy a pack then reads the fine print come and go all the time.

Taimasan, I am a whale but I do not just drop a $ thousand or a $100 right out the gate, you have to entice me a bit

[Oliphant]

Nuclear Elvis, expansions going on sale for 85% occasionally also shows the normal prices are inflated

The prices I listed were current quotes by the way

I hope the game attracts players year round not just on Christmas

[FranOhmsford]

Just re-affirms to me that if you are not willing to drop $100 bucks just to participate that your not the type of the player Turbine wants to retain anyway. They need whales. New players who buy a pack then reads the fine print come and go all the time.

You need to watch this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL8pxHcssQw

[Taimasan]

You need to watch this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL8pxHcssQw


Only solution is to have a open-source MMO imho.

[Taimasan]

You need to watch this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL8pxHcssQw


If he has a episode on the A word PM me the link plox.

[FranOhmsford]

If he has a episode on the A word PM me the link plox.

Chances are it's coming.

That one was the latest {came out yesterday on Channel Awesome, not sure if YouTube gets them earlier. So could be next week if you keep an eye on it.

[kemetka]

as an aside opinion, pay to play stuff should stay pay to play, and here's why :

good intentions and fun dont keep the lights on, if half the paid to play content goes free to play i'd be willing to bet that DDO would drop at the very least 50% of its VIP subs because they would no longer have a reason to stay subscribers.

So what happens if DDO loses its funding :
could lead to server merges / closings to save money
yay server merges!!!!
which could lead to more lag
yay forum rage
which could lead to more "im not paying for this anymore"
yay more lost revenue
which could turn into a continuous downward spiral. Yay the joy of voting with your wallet :/

that being said, I will agree that restless isles / sorrowdusk isle should go free to play, would be another free to play raid out there, which is never bad, and would lead to possibly more people running that content - maybe.

A more realistic option would be to slowly phase out the lower cost TP products into free to play space while offering a low discount on the more expensive ones, such as moving anything thats 250TP into free to play, which would get new players into the necropolis and its story line, get them through the paid stuff in the marketplace and a few others.

That being said, it would make catacombs free to play, and it would be too bad if that happened because then this would go away :
http://store.turbine.com/store/turbine/en_US/pd/ThemeID.29252200/productID.274988800/categoryID.58516100
For those that dont own catacombs this deal is actually really good, and is what i got for my kid when she started playing DDO, and to put the 10$ cost into perspective :
catacombs : 250TP
250TP : 250TP
Fiendish Scorpion Pet : 295 TP ( i assumed the lower cost of the scorpion pets +100TP for the other one )
Permanent Cleric Hireling ( level 3, is gold seal, has divine vitality - potentially infinite sp regen on a 5min cooldown ) : 30TP ( per hour if you want to be technical )
5 Excellent Experience Elixirs : 1395 TP

total : 2220 TP value
comparatively 1600 TP is $20.

Now granted you get catabombs.. yay.. but you get that value back in TP, a permenant SP regen / lever puller that can be summoned anywhere in the dungeon, not just at the entrance, a pet ( depending on the person this may be "Yay" or not, it was for my kid ), and XP potions which are always nice

and that 250 TP if you wanted to spend it immidiately you could turn around and purchase :
STK or Reavers Reach.

or once you hit 400 favor you could get :
Sharn Syndicate
Necro 1, 2 or 3
Devil's Assault
Restless Isles
Path of Inspiration
or Dreaming Dark

I personally had her wait till 400 favor and buy Devil's assault, she made it to 20 and has been TRing on her own fine for the past 2 years from a $10 purchase, non VIP, non premium ( aside from the initial 10$ purchase of course )

[Nuclear_Elvis]

One thing you left out of your list of benefits to the Starter Pack purchase -- if that's the first time you put real money into the game, it converts the FTP account to Premium account status, which then provides free access permanently across all servers to Monster Manual volume 1 (about 500+ TP value depending on sale prices).

[Angelic-council]

Turbine has done a good job with allowing players to play for free, earn TP (considered real money currency) and play a content beyond expansion for free. What about other 100s of MMO games. They will force you to spend 60$ per expansion + retain subscription to even play a game. People say MotU paywall is what killed this game, but in reality, it was suddenly difficulty increase + several other issues what really bothered so many players. It was an expansion that developers spent extra time developing and company had to pay extra money for designers. It's not something that after 2/3 years we give you all for free. That's not how business work. Their approach will be to discount the expansion and make it affordable in near future, but not free. I can explain this more further in accurate details, but we have to understand their stand point too.

Remember, heroic and epic are 2 separate games, if you want to enjoy end game, you have to start taking an action.. If you don't like this game or believe that spending little extra money will kill your mood, you should just stay away..

[BigErkyKid]

You need to watch this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL8pxHcssQw

Oh please! We all know that. Do you need that dude telling you this?

I know people IG who have spent 100 bucks in gold dice rerolls.

For me, the issue is not so much that they use Casino techniques (yeah, Casinos are nasty places kids!), but rather that they do it in a way that catches most people unaware.

When you step into a casino you know what to expect. When you start playing DDO (or let your kid do so), you don't know you are going into a casino. Typically for a game you pay whatever it costs (or a sub) and then you can just play. But with the microtrans you think you are playing the game but you are being baited into spending. So in the heat of the moment you go ahead and spend.

These guys are going to get regulated in the end. They will have warnings all over like a Casino does, there will minimum age requirements, there will be public campaign to make people aware of the dangers of it. Until then is up to us to both use some self control and make sure we keep an eye on kids.

As a final word, I have to say that I pity the developers. Seeing all that around you and being powerless (or forced to cater to it) must not be the best feeling in the world.

[Oliphant]

Turbine has done a good job with allowing players to play for free, earn TP (considered real money currency) and play a content beyond expansion for free. What about other 100s of MMO games. They will force you to spend 60$ per expansion + retain subscription to even play a game. People say MotU paywall is what killed this game, but in reality, it was suddenly difficulty increase + several other issues what really bothered so many players. It was an expansion that developers spent extra time developing and company had to pay extra money for designers. It's not something that after 2/3 years we give you all for free. That's not how business work. Their approach will be to discount the expansion and make it affordable in near future, but not free. I can explain this more further in accurate details, but we have to understand their stand point too.

Remember, heroic and epic are 2 separate games, if you want to enjoy end game, you have to start taking an action.. If you don't like this game or believe that spending little extra money will kill your mood, you should just stay away..

My experience 5+ years ago, was you could gradually get more content and feel like you were in the game, not on some fringe zone whose heyday passed. Maybe this is still valid now, it's hard to fully imagine being new when you can log on and stuff just works. The good news is heroic content is easier than ever, so you can solo. This game is a soloist dream on heroic, tons of content for basically low prices.

I wonder about folks that join for community. If I were new I would invest in the newest content because I expect the to find population playing the new content. So the original purpose of the thread was in that context for me - there's some real social incentive to invest in iconic and/or epic play lately. I agree that giving away massive content that other folks already paid for would probably be a net loss for business. I agree the expansions should not be free, but I'm perfectly open minded about expansions eventually being part of VIP (I already own expansions and I'm not VIP btw). I think they could use a price cut on the expansions normal price. I would love it if they reversed polarity on the expansions and started using them to draw players rather than wall off participation.