Combat tactics: Some questions...

[CThruTheEgo]

First, do combat mastery items (whether lootgen or named), insightful combat mastery on lootgen, and know the angles all stack with each other? As far as I can tell from wiki, these are all three typed as an insight bonus, but I haven't found anything about their stacking. So do they stack with each other?

Second, is insightful combat mastery only found on lootgen, or are there named items that have this? If so, what named items can this be found on?

Third, what stunning blow and dire charge DC is needed for LE? I've heard assassins (also a fort save) still fail often enough with a 90 DC, but do have some success. So I'm guessing a 105-110 stunning blow and dire charge DC would be no fail. Is this correct?

Fourth, because it checks against the enemy's str instead of fort, is the same DC effective for trip? If not, what trip DC would be no fail on LE?

Thanks in advance.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

First, do combat mastery items (whether lootgen or named), insightful combat mastery on lootgen, and know the angles all stack with each other? As far as I can tell from wiki, these are all three typed as an insight bonus, but I haven't found anything about their stacking. So do they stack with each other?

Second, is insightful combat mastery only found on lootgen, or are there named items that have this? If so, what named items can this be found on?

Third, what stunning blow and dire charge DC is needed for LE? I've heard assassins (also a fort save) still fail often enough with a 90 DC, but do have some success. So I'm guessing a 105-110 stunning blow and dire charge DC would be no fail. Is this correct?

Fourth, because it checks against the enemy's str instead of fort, is the same DC effective for trip? If not, what trip DC would be no fail on LE?

Thanks in advance.

im pretty sure they do all stack. combat mastery items in game are typed as enhancement, insightful mastery are typed as insightful, and kta is a different kind of bonus (i just know it stacks :p). its possible that they arent functioning properly in some way. when i am actually wearing a combat mastery and insightful combat mastery item at the same time (l animated rope, l warriors focus) ill test it out a bit. assuming they work like they should, they should certainly stack. i know kta does stack with insightful combat mastery and individual tactic dc bonuses from gear from past experience, at least.

insightful combat mastery can be found on consuming darkness, spare hand, emerald gaze, warriors focus, hook boots, dun robar rings, drow weapons, and possibly others im forgetting.

in my experience legendary ts/hox have easier dcs than the quests and shroud.

trip is much easier to land than attacks against fort.

[Faltout]

im pretty sure they do all stack. combat mastery items in game are typed as enhancement, insightful mastery are typed as insightful, and kta is a different kind of bonus (i just know it stacks :p). its possible that they arent functioning properly in some way. when i am actually wearing a combat mastery and insightful combat mastery item at the same time (l animated rope, l warriors focus) ill test it out a bit. assuming they work like they should, they should certainly stack. i know kta does stack with insightful combat mastery and individual tactic dc bonuses from gear from past experience, at least.

insightful combat mastery can be found on consuming darkness, spare hand, emerald gaze, warriors focus, hook boots, dun robar rings, drow weapons, and possibly others im forgetting.

in my experience legendary ts/hox have easier dcs than the quests and shroud.

trip is much easier to land than attacks against fort.
No, they don't all stack. I don't know about KtA bonus but I'll take your word that it stacks. Insightful Combat Mastery and Combat mastery provide the same type of bonus: Insightful. And thus they do not stack. Since simple combat mastery values are double compared to ins combat mastery, it's best if you don't use a named item with insightful combat mastery and use a +11 CM random loot item instead.

This is obviously a bug (since CM says enhancement), but do note that the individual boosts to tactical DCs like vertigo, stunning and sundering are also enhancement. So, if combat mastery becomes the intended enhancement type, then it will no longer stack with the much higher (+16) individual bonuses.

[BigErkyKid]

Short answer: all combat masteries provide the same bonus regardless of the description and hence only the highest applies. In addition, combat mastery stacks with stunning / vertigo and the rest of focused bonuses.

This is obviously overkill for early to mid level epics and for a lot of builds almost a must for LE.

I hope they don't fix it without changing FORT saves, though.

[Phil7]

Severlin's Leaden Boots (level 30): stunning +15
Legendary Animated Rope: combat mastery +14 (it is insightful, even tho text says enhancement bonus)
they both stack

With a DC of 91 on stunning shield on my paladin life I could stun everything on EE, except from Amrath and all quests released after that.
With a DC of 116 (I think it was) on a Fighter life I could stun everything and didn't care at all, even necro 4 EE. Now I didn't run many Legendary quests on that life, but I do remember a LH tempest spine. Casters were 100% stun, but melee mobs were saving like 50% of the time.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

No, they don't all stack. I don't know about KtA bonus but I'll take your word that it stacks. Insightful Combat Mastery and Combat mastery provide the same type of bonus: Insightful. And thus they do not stack. Since simple combat mastery values are double compared to ins combat mastery, it's best if you don't use a named item with insightful combat mastery and use a +11 CM random loot item instead.

This is obviously a bug (since CM says enhancement), but do note that the individual boosts to tactical DCs like vertigo, stunning and sundering are also enhancement. So, if combat mastery becomes the intended enhancement type, then it will no longer stack with the much higher (+16) individual bonuses.

that really fkin sucks...now i have to slot a stunning item somewhere and my trip and sunder dcs will be nonexistent...i was actually excited that combat mastery and insightful combat mastery were looking like theyd been done right for a new york minute. god **** it turbine.

l animated rope is +14 combat mastery.

just tested via the effects log only, according to that combat mastery is providing an insight bonus. this should be fixed asap.

[CThruTheEgo]

Thanks for the info all. Good to know that combat mastery stacks with individual tactics bonuses, and that insightful combat mastery is useless.

Does anyone know if know the angles stacks with combat mastery?

Assuming know the angles does stack with combat mastery, I'm currently theory crafting a fighter that can reach 125 stunning blow/trip DC and 135 dire charge DC. I thought that would be overkill but if 116 had a 50% success rate on LE, then it sounds like it's just enough.

In regards to gear, it seems like Legendary Animated Rope (combat mastery 14) and Epic Boots of the Innocent (vertigo 12, stunning 12, shatter 12, and speed 15) would be a good combo. The boots may not offer the max available bonus for the individual tactics, but it's a nice consolidating item and isn't too far below max. DCs should still be sufficient with them as those were the two pieces of gear I was assuming on my theory build.

[Vanhooger]

In regards to gear, it seems like Legendary Animated Rope (combat mastery 14) and Epic Boots of the Innocent (vertigo 12, stunning 12, shatter 12, and speed 15) would be a good combo. The boots may not offer the max available bonus for the individual tactics, but it's a nice consolidating item and isn't too far below max. DCs should still be sufficient with them as those were the two pieces of gear I was assuming on my theory build.

That's the combo I have on my fighter to get stun/and trip with 2 item. I got 133 dire charge 123 stunning blow & trip. Tested on Legendary elite shroud was no fail, at least for dire charge.

Rope is a lame item but worth the slot on a tactical fighter...if it's WAI.

Ps. I don't have know the angles/divine might.

Could get 3 higher with doj goggles but not worth it.

If you aim for Legendary elite raid also consider doing legendary ice for extra cc. I've got 2 of them with good wepons clicky and they work really well as the figher may lack some self healing. Yes it adds 100 adamantine dr, but on elite better to be alive and doing 100 less damage then a soulstone.

[BigErkyKid]

Does anyone know if know the angles stacks with combat mastery?

Assuming know the angles does stack with combat mastery, I'm currently theory crafting a fighter that can reach 125 stunning blow/trip DC and 135 dire charge DC. I thought that would be overkill but if 116 had a 50% success rate on LE, then it sounds like it's just enough.



Yes it does stack.

I question the claim that 125 fort DC is 50% success rate. I say this is completely wrong, impossible and very bad information to be spreading around.

Remember that stuns target fortification saves. Fortification saves in LE shroud (highest there is) are in the realm of early 100, as far as everyone I know has reported.

I feel that the only possible explanation for 125 fort not landing are missing hits, which are a reality given the current AC boost to mobs.

[CThruTheEgo]

Yes it does stack.

Thank you.


I question the claim that 125 fort DC is 50% success rate. I say this is completely wrong, impossible and very bad information to be spreading around.

It was 116 DC that was reported to be 50% successful against melee mobs. See Phil7's post above.

[BigErkyKid]

It was 116 DC that was reported to be 50% successful against melee mobs. See Phil7's post above.

I still think that this is too high to have 50% success rate.

[Phil7]

Rope is a lame item but worth the slot on a tactical fighter...if it's WAI.

If you aim for Legendary elite raid also consider doing legendary ice for extra cc. I've got 2 of them with good wepons clicky and they work really well as the figher may lack some self healing.

It is actually a very good item for a Fighter. +17% dodge, less hate from mobs so you can dps safely, huge sneak attack boost and the combat mastery.
I reckon you are using a Deception item on your dps build?

You mentioned that you use 2 weapons, which means no tower shield, which in the end means no max DEX bonus of only 2. Check your ''legendary tank'' heavy armor, it says max. DEX bonus=17
If you like the ''dps'' counterpart that gives +4% quality doublestrike, it has max DEX bonus=7%
You can boost this even more from enhancements and from a past life and items.

If indeed the max DEX bonus functions according to what the wiki says, then a dwarf Fighter could reach 33% dodge with that specific heavy armor. Now, if all that is true, a tank dwarf fighter could tank with 33% dodge while using a Large Shield *cough* epic shield of tireless aid... but oh wait, everyone uses Terminus so it must somehow be better, right? ^^

because +5prr and 2% dodge > 17% dodge
makes sense!

lame?!

But I have to say, I agree that legendary ice is indeed very nice, IF you don't have many cc abilities. I would definetly not use them on a dps vanguard build, where I would stick with a legendary vacuum weapon and a dps shield. But on a 2wf build they are great even if you hold 2 of them or if you hold 1 ice and 1 vacuum

[Phil7]

Thank you.



It was 116 DC that was reported to be 50% successful against melee mobs. See Phil7's post above.


Yes I did indeed post that and a lot of the melee mobs were saving my stunning shield and even more my stunning blow. I did not bother tracking down exactly how many mobs saved against it, but it seemed to me, it was about half of them.

Please do prove me wrong, but until then we'll have to wait for my next Fighter life :)

[CThruTheEgo]

Yes I did indeed post that and a lot of the melee mobs were saving my stunning shield and even more my stunning blow. I did not bother tracking down exactly how many mobs saved against it, but it seemed to me, it was about half of them.

Please do prove me wrong, but until then we'll have to wait for my next Fighter life :)

Oh I trust your claim, especially since Vanhooger makes a similar claim above. I much prefer to hear people's personal experience rather than secondhand reports. Erky does raise a good point, though, about the possibility of to hit being low. Did you notice any problems with misses or grazing hits, or was that a non-issue?

[Vanhooger]

It is actually a very good item for a Fighter. +17% dodge, less hate from mobs so you can dps safely, huge sneak attack boost and the combat mastery.
I reckon you are using a Deception item on your dps build?

You mentioned that you use 2 weapons, which means no tower shield, which in the end means no max DEX bonus of only 2. Check your ''legendary tank'' heavy armor, it says max. DEX bonus=17
If you like the ''dps'' counterpart that gives +4% quality doublestrike, it has max DEX bonus=7%
You can boost this even more from enhancements and from a past life and items.

If indeed the max DEX bonus functions according to what the wiki says, then a dwarf Fighter could reach 33% dodge with that specific heavy armor. Now, if all that is true, a tank dwarf fighter could tank with 33% dodge while using a Large Shield *cough* epic shield of tireless aid... but oh wait, everyone uses Terminus so it must somehow be better, right? ^^

because +5prr and 2% dodge > 17% dodge
makes sense!

lame?!

But I have to say, I agree that legendary ice is indeed very nice, IF you don't have many cc abilities. I would definetly not use them on a dps vanguard build, where I would stick with a legendary vacuum weapon and a dps shield. But on a 2wf build they are great even if you hold 2 of them or if you hold 1 ice and 1 vacuum

I wasn't talking about vanguard or shield build anyway.

And I am sure my dodge is capped even without that belt.

Of course you can get cap raised with ench but it depends on how you spend 80 AP, anyway Will check once I log in.

Diversion, I do highly doubt that it ever worked.

I don't see the point on using vacuum other then bosses or shroud portal.

It is completely useless IMHO against trash.

They die too fast.

Forgot to say I do prefer more HP/PRR then dodge any time if I can. Relying too much on dodge mean massive spike damage or oneshot this day. As well I got high AC that does the same as dodge, preventing damage.

[Phil7]

dodge is similar to AC, if you dont want dodge then why do you want AC??
I don't want to criticize you, as you are an older player than me, but do whatever makes you happy .

I thought about vacuum and I think you have a point there. 20% more damage is like 20MP and thrash dies super fast anyway. Also if 2 or more party members have vacuum weapons, it becomes even more useless. The more I think about it, the less appealing it seems.

Now I personally dont need legendary Ice, because i have tons of CC, but I think that legendary Affirmation might actually be useful. Especially on melee toons that get hit way more often.