Help me ungimp at least one of my Clerics

[FranOhmsford]

Over the years I've created a number of Clerics in DDO but each and every one of them has been pretty gimpy {Even my original main and 1st Character to 20 on Cannith, 1st Character to 25 full stop AND ONLY Character to complete 20 Shrouds! was a 17/3 Battle Cleric that was pretty much only useful as a Healer! That one has now done two Cleric Lives and is currently doing Pally Lives.}.


Now a while back I TRd an alt Cleric on Sarlona into a Morninglord and I've just realised I haven't touched her since {probably because I was waiting to afford a +1 Heart to get rid of the Wizard Lvl}.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b559/ChaseWolf/ScreenShot00003_zpsnhawm9hb.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ChaseWolf/media/ScreenShot00003_zpsnhawm9hb.jpg.html)

I will buy the +1 Heart if no-one can work up a viable build with the 1 Wizard Level so feel free to treat this as a blank slate Battle Cleric with 3 Ftr Levels already in the Build.

I want to not worry about TRing this character again until I've got a few ERs under her belt.

Tomes used are +3 Dex, Con and Cha, +2 Str, Int and Wis

[Eryhn]

the issue is more the 3 fighter level on a 32p monrninglord, or, the 32p morninglord on a melee depending on which way you look at it methinks ...

edit: its a 34p i cant read, sry

buy +3 heart LR out the fighter go 17/2/1 cleric/fvs/wiz light based evoker or some such- or take 4th fighter level, take aura, dump everything else into stalwart defenses, drag a low con no saves S/B no dps healer to cap to TR outa this. if it werent for tomes id say reroll ?

im not sure this CAN be ungimped? you could go elf AA wis based dc in theory, but thats not a good thing to do on a 32p no PLs no 5+ dex wis tomes toon

dont rly see anything here other than gimp healbot with stalwart stance and haste boost ...

edit:

maybe like so:


New Build
13/6/1 Cleric/Fighter/Wizard
Lawful Good Morninglord


Level Order

1. Cleric 6. Cleric 11. Cleric 16. Fighter
2. Fighter 7. Cleric 12. Cleric 17. Fighter
3. Fighter 8. Cleric 13. Cleric 18. Cleric
4. Fighter 9. Cleric 14. Cleric 19. Fighter
5. Wizard 10. Cleric 15. Cleric 20. Cleric


Stats
34pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- --------
Strength 17 +2 4: STR
Dexterity 8 +3 8: STR
Constitution 15 +3 12: STR
Intelligence 17 +2 16: STR
Wisdom 8 +2 20: STR
Charisma 8 +3 24: STR
28: STR

Skills
C F F F W C C C C C C C C C C F F C F C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------
Concent 4 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 23
Heal 4 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 23
Spellcr 4 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 ½ 1½ 2 1 2 23
Balance 2 ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ 1 ½ ½ 1 11
Jump 1 2 3 1 ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ 1 11
Swim 1 3 ½ ½ 5
Haggle 1 1 1 2 5
------------------------------------------------------------
20 5 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 6 5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
20 5 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6


Feats

1 : Power Attack
1 Deity : Follower of: Amaunator
2 Fighter: Exotic Weapon: Khopesh
3 : Empower Healing Spell
3 Fighter: Shield Mastery
5 Wizard : Quicken Spell
6 : Weapon Focus: Slashing
9 : Cleave
10 Deity : Amaunator's Brilliance
12 : Improved Critical: Slashing
15 : Improved Shield Mastery
16 Fighter: Stunning Blow
18 : Enlarge Spell
19 Fighter: Heavy Armor Combatant
21 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic : Tactical Training
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Tactician
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic : Intensify Spell
30 Legend : Scion of: Celestia


Spells

Cleric
Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor, Nightshield, Shield of Faith, Remove Fear, Obscuring Mist
Cure Moderate Wounds, Resist Energy, Close Wounds, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Remove Paralysis, Lesser Restoration
Cure Serious Wounds, Magic Circle Against Evil, Remove Curse, Remove Blindness, Remove Disease, Mass Aid
Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Restoration, Divine Power, <Any>
Mass Cure Light Wounds, True Seeing, Raise Dead, Stalwart Pact, Protection from Elements
Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Heal, Heroes' Feast, Harm
Mass Cure Serious Wounds, Greater Restoration, Resurrection
Wizard
Feather Fall, Jump, Shield

Enhancements (80 AP)

Radiant Servant (34 AP)
Healing Domain, Pacifism, Positive Energy Burst, Improved Empower Healing
Extra Turning II, Wand Mastery III
Improved Turning I, Efficient Empower Healing III
Intense Healing III
Endless Turning I, Incredible Healing III
Positive Energy Aura, Cure Focus

Kensei (22 AP)
Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades, Spiritual Bond, Strike with No Thought
Extra Action Boost II, Weapon Group Specialization, Exotic Weapon Mastery, Haste Boost III
Weapon Group Specialization
Critical Mastery III, Shattering Strike I
Strike at the Heart

Vanguard (11 AP)
To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I
No Weakness I, Shield Smash III
Stunning Shield I, Melee Power Boost III

Harper Agent (7 AP)
Agent of Good I
Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles II

Stalwart Defender (6 AP)
Toughness, Stalwart Defense
Durable Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery I


Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought
Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost II, Strength
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack, Strength
Lay Waste, Critical Damage III
(none)
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz

Twists of Fate (12 fate points)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Endless Turning (Tier 1 Crusader)
Endless Faith (Tier 1 Exalted)
Brace for Impact (Tier 1 Sentinel)


gear for 28/30:
epic halcyonia + 150 pos/good align/mineral LGS kopesh
LTS shield
LTS +4quality dstrike heavy armor
lvl25/30 sev boots
legendary combat mastery sneak/dodge belt
legendary melee power ring
hasty hamp lootgen gloves
deception ring
con str lootgen bracers
int seeker lootgen goggles
remnant cloak
legendary warrior focus necklace dstrike, armor pierce
epic token of the proven lesser displacement
wis 8 slotted

[FranOhmsford]

the issue is more the 3 fighter level on a 32p monrninglord, or, the 32p morninglord on a melee depending on which way you look at it methinks ...

edit: its a 34p i cant read, sry

buy +3 heart LR out the fighter go 17/2/1 cleric/fvs/wiz light based evoker or some such- or take 4th fighter level, take aura, dump everything else into stalwart defenses, drag a low con no saves S/B no dps healer to cap to TR outa this. if it werent for tomes id say reroll ?

im not sure this CAN be ungimped? you could go elf AA wis based dc in theory, but thats not a good thing to do on a 32p no PLs no 5+ dex wis tomes toon

dont rly see anything here other than gimp healbot with stalwart stance and haste boost ...

edit:

maybe like so:


New Build
13/6/1 Cleric/Fighter/Wizard
Lawful Good Morninglord


Level Order

1. Cleric 6. Cleric 11. Cleric 16. Fighter
2. Fighter 7. Cleric 12. Cleric 17. Fighter
3. Fighter 8. Cleric 13. Cleric 18. Cleric
4. Fighter 9. Cleric 14. Cleric 19. Fighter
5. Wizard 10. Cleric 15. Cleric 20. Cleric


Stats
34pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- --------
Strength 17 +2 4: STR
Dexterity 8 +3 8: STR
Constitution 15 +3 12: STR
Intelligence 17 +2 16: STR
Wisdom 8 +2 20: STR
Charisma 8 +3 24: STR
28: STR

Skills
C F F F W C C C C C C C C C C F F C F C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------
Concent 4 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 23
Heal 4 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 23
Spellcr 4 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 ½ 1½ 2 1 2 23
Balance 2 ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ 1 ½ ½ 1 11
Jump 1 2 3 1 ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ 1 11
Swim 1 3 ½ ½ 5
Haggle 1 1 1 2 5
------------------------------------------------------------
20 5 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 6 5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
20 5 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6


Feats

1 : Power Attack
1 Deity : Follower of: Amaunator
2 Fighter: Exotic Weapon: Khopesh
3 : Empower Healing Spell
3 Fighter: Shield Mastery
5 Wizard : Quicken Spell
6 : Weapon Focus: Slashing
9 : Cleave
10 Deity : Amaunator's Brilliance
12 : Improved Critical: Slashing
15 : Improved Shield Mastery
16 Fighter: Stunning Blow
18 : Enlarge Spell
19 Fighter: Heavy Armor Combatant
21 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic : Tactical Training
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Tactician
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic : Intensify Spell
30 Legend : Scion of: Celestia


Spells

Cleric
Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor, Nightshield, Shield of Faith, Remove Fear, Obscuring Mist
Cure Moderate Wounds, Resist Energy, Close Wounds, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Remove Paralysis, Lesser Restoration
Cure Serious Wounds, Magic Circle Against Evil, Remove Curse, Remove Blindness, Remove Disease, Mass Aid
Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Restoration, Divine Power, <Any>
Mass Cure Light Wounds, True Seeing, Raise Dead, Stalwart Pact, Protection from Elements
Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Heal, Heroes' Feast, Harm
Mass Cure Serious Wounds, Greater Restoration, Resurrection
Wizard
Feather Fall, Jump, Shield

Enhancements (80 AP)

Radiant Servant (34 AP)
Healing Domain, Pacifism, Positive Energy Burst, Improved Empower Healing
Extra Turning II, Wand Mastery III
Improved Turning I, Efficient Empower Healing III
Intense Healing III
Endless Turning I, Incredible Healing III
Positive Energy Aura, Cure Focus

Kensei (22 AP)
Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades, Spiritual Bond, Strike with No Thought
Extra Action Boost II, Weapon Group Specialization, Exotic Weapon Mastery, Haste Boost III
Weapon Group Specialization
Critical Mastery III, Shattering Strike I
Strike at the Heart

Vanguard (11 AP)
To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I
No Weakness I, Shield Smash III
Stunning Shield I, Melee Power Boost III

Harper Agent (7 AP)
Agent of Good I
Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles II

Stalwart Defender (6 AP)
Toughness, Stalwart Defense
Durable Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery I


Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought
Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost II, Strength
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack, Strength
Lay Waste, Critical Damage III
(none)
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz

Twists of Fate (12 fate points)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Endless Turning (Tier 1 Crusader)
Endless Faith (Tier 1 Exalted)
Brace for Impact (Tier 1 Sentinel)


gear for 28/30:
epic halcyonia + 150 pos/good align/mineral LGS kopesh
LTS shield
LTS +4quality dstrike heavy armor
lvl25/30 sev boots
legendary combat mastery sneak/dodge belt
legendary melee power ring
hasty hamp lootgen gloves
deception ring
con str lootgen bracers
int seeker lootgen goggles
remnant cloak
legendary warrior focus necklace dstrike, armor pierce
epic token of the proven lesser displacement
wis 8 slotted


This is a character that's going to have to build through multiple destinies {1st life was Cleric so is rank 2 Crusader atm and will do EA, US then GMoF before ERing {So LD is out, I'd also prefer to make US my main Destiny once all the others are done.}.

As for Feats I've taken PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery as well as Mental Toughness, Maximise, Empower Healing and Extra Turning and yes I realise with an LR I'll be able to swap in others but I'm pretty sure the level split listed of Cleric, Fighter, Fighter, Fighter, Wizard is far from how I've done it and I'd lose Great Cleave.
I don't usually take Quicken till minimum Lvl 15 anyway and on a character with no Heal Mass {no 9th Lvl Spells} I don't see the point to taking it at all?
Why Enlarge over Maximise or Heighten?
Surely Exotic Khop is a waste of a Feat? {Though I will say that the Devs need to completely overhaul Favored of....Feats ASAP - Maybe add Bonus Crit Profiles at like Lvl 9 Cleric to avoid Splashes}.

[Eryhn]

i dont feel a morninglord is good basis for a melee destiny farmer. but as that is so, and you might end up soloing EHs for speed, i tried to get in some dps, keeping in mind you want your aura and want shield. to that end, 6 fighter for the core crit multi, which, together with kopesh makes for a heavy critter so your hits will count - I would consider it a feat worthwhile spent, but that's subjective.

KTA and tactics, because if anything good comes out of morninglord it is getting decent INT starting stat cheaply and with the shield you can get vangaurd stunning shield which has high DC anyways. as for skills, took the spellpower for the blade barrier mainly. DC will suck, but its still an option to throw one up for some added dmg.

I took enlarge over maximise as i feel an empowered cure med/serious/critical mass with 34p in radiant and caster level increases and decent gear is all thats ever needed unless you wish to heal LH+ raids. more so if you run in EA for raid heals and later add intensify. enlarge makes your single target heals reach further. again, subjective choice. i like in raids like peaks i.e. to have that added range...

i have nothing against mental toughness line, though, thinking this build might be more used for questing than raids do not see the need for SP? what you wanna do? you have aura heals. DCs are meh on 2nd life no caster PL only 13-15 class levels, so nvm about any dmg spell other than a quickly thrown BB before you chop em with melee. so hence I focused feats on tactics, some defense, standard melee stuff, and for casting quicken, emp heal, intensify only. again, sunjective choice, SP are always nice and can be used for something ...

downsides of the build is bad saves but you stuck with those anyways unless you LR the wiz out for 2 or 3 pally and go cha/divine might rather than INT/KTA - thats why the defender stance is minimal, a +3 saves from stance not gonna matter either way. would be nice to get the 20% HP stance but i find it comes at a substantial dps loss so figured rather without. enhancements could be changed later always oc

other downside is no massheal/no mass restore due to 6 fighter crit multi and feats. thats also bearing in mind u wanna grind destinies and need some dps.
as for leveling order, I wrongly assumed you might have a free LR0 left as you asked for help with the build and there is only so much to be done with adjusting last 5 levels and changing enhances. but shouldnt be to hard to put your version into the planner and tinker a bit to see which of the above suggestions may work and which not?

also, im not a friend of great cleave on non 2hf, hence only took 1 cleave for lay waste & momentum swing unlock and rather put remaining feats to +4 tactis to make sure you get EH viable DC at least on stunning blow and shield. and no, this isnt optimal, this is making do or trying to, sry XD

im currently leveling an alt on 12/6/2 cleric kensei pally with maul and grinding destinies on EH which works very well. I know you dont like, but just saying. you cant have 15 cleric + shield + aura and yet have something that can quickly grind EH for solo destiny XP ... if you always run in group maybe not such an issue, dunno

[FranOhmsford]

KTA and tactics, because if anything good comes out of morninglord it is getting decent INT starting stat cheaply and with the shield you can get vangaurd stunning shield which has high DC anyways. as for skills, took the spellpower for the blade barrier mainly. DC will suck, but its still an option to throw one up for some added dmg.

With Clerics Multi-Attribute Dependancy that extra +2 Int basically still means 12 max. {I've just noticed your plan shows 17 int, 8 Wis and 8 Cha - I'm sorry but there's just no way I can bring myself to play a Cleric with 8 Wis and 8 Cha! - This is what annoys me so much about Cleric in DDO and why I feel it's a disgrace the Devs are leaving Cleric to last for Updating!}.


I took enlarge over maximise as i feel an empowered cure med/serious/critical mass with 34p in radiant and caster level increases and decent gear is all thats ever needed unless you wish to heal LH+ raids. more so if you run in EA for raid heals and later add intensify. enlarge makes your single target heals reach further. again, subjective choice. i like in raids like peaks i.e. to have that added range...

Does Enlarge really make that much of a difference for Cures? How often is someone just outside your mass range rather than miles outside it? {If Enlarge worked with Aura and Burst it would be different but I don't believe it does.}.

I'm not sure I'll be doing much Raiding on this Character - I don't do Raids that often full stop.


i have nothing against mental toughness line, though, thinking this build might be more used for questing than raids do not see the need for SP? what you wanna do? you have aura heals. DCs are meh on 2nd life no caster PL only 13-15 class levels, so nvm about any dmg spell other than a quickly thrown BB before you chop em with melee. so hence I focused feats on tactics, some defense, standard melee stuff, and for casting quicken, emp heal, intensify only. again, sunjective choice, SP are always nice and can be used for something ...

Even with 18 Wis I find BB barely viable considering mob saves.


downsides of the build is bad saves but you stuck with those anyways unless you LR the wiz out for 2 or 3 pally and go cha/divine might rather than INT/KTA - thats why the defender stance is minimal, a +3 saves from stance not gonna matter either way. would be nice to get the 20% HP stance but i find it comes at a substantial dps loss so figured rather without. enhancements could be changed later always oc

Yup - Cleric Saves are atrocious!


other downside is no massheal/no mass restore due to 6 fighter crit multi and feats. thats also bearing in mind u wanna grind destinies and need some dps.
as for leveling order, I wrongly assumed you might have a free LR0 left as you asked for help with the build and there is only so much to be done with adjusting last 5 levels and changing enhances. but shouldnt be to hard to put your version into the planner and tinker a bit to see which of the above suggestions may work and which not?

I'm considering using a +1 Heart if necessary - I'd prefer not to have to buy one though.

I don't have two Hearts!


also, im not a friend of great cleave on non 2hf, hence only took 1 cleave for lay waste & momentum swing unlock and rather put remaining feats to +4 tactis to make sure you get EH viable DC at least on stunning blow and shield. and no, this isnt optimal, this is making do or trying to, sry XD

As I've said...I won't be in LD so won't have Lay Waste or Momentum Swing.

Also I could swap out Great Cleave once I did get those.


im currently leveling an alt on 12/6/2 pally fighter kensei with maul and grinding destinies on EH which works very well. I know you dont like, but just saying. you cant have 15 cleric + shield + aura and yet have something that can quickly grind EH for solo destiny XP ... if you always run in group maybe not such an issue, dunno

I just want to be able to do EH/EN dailies with maybe the odd EE Saga Run when a Group pops up - Most of the time it will be with a Group but sometimes you have to start that EH VoN 3 Solo.


Is there any way yet in game other than PDK to get Cha to Damage?

Why is there no way for a Cleric to get Wis to Damage?

Aaaargh!

[Eryhn]

With Clerics Multi-Attribute Dependancy that extra +2 Int basically still means 12 max. {I've just noticed your plan shows 17 int, 8 Wis and 8 Cha - I'm sorry but there's just no way I can bring myself to play a Cleric with 8 Wis and 8 Cha! - This is what annoys me so much about Cleric in DDO and why I feel it's a disgrace the Devs are leaving Cleric to last for Updating!}.



Does Enlarge really make that much of a difference for Cures? How often is someone just outside your mass range rather than miles outside it? {If Enlarge worked with Aura and Burst it would be different but I don't believe it does.}.

I'm not sure I'll be doing much Raiding on this Character - I don't do Raids that often full stop.



Even with 18 Wis I find BB barely viable considering mob saves.



Yup - Cleric Saves are atrocious!



I'm considering using a +1 Heart if necessary - I'd prefer not to have to buy one though.

I don't have two Hearts!



As I've said...I won't be in LD so won't have Lay Waste or Momentum Swing.

Also I could swap out Great Cleave once I did get those.



I just want to be able to do EH/EN dailies with maybe the odd EE Saga Run when a Group pops up - Most of the time it will be with a Group but sometimes you have to start that EH VoN 3 Solo.


Is there any way yet in game other than PDK to get Cha to Damage?

Why is there no way for a Cleric to get Wis to Damage?

Aaaargh!

well, idk then. you want to play a cleric like a pally with better heals but ddo dont build them like that. if you want some cha on your cleric for lore reasons do a pally splash or its wasted stat points except for DV. if you want wis on your cleric for lore, do a caster or anything above 12 is wasted stat points if it isnt a zen archery build.

as for enlarge, no its not that important rly. it IS important on a pure caster for destruction but thats not the issue here.

ok so no LD cause leveling, right, my bad. take g cleave then, idk.

we're back to what i initially said then though, add 1 more fighter level for tier4 in defender, make it sturdy and otherwise be a healer and nvm dps, run in groups.

just having cleave and g-cleave and dropping some points in kensei isnt gonna get you much dmg on a S&B. the build i proposed isnt great dmg either anyways.

as for BB, yeah they will always save for half dmg, but if you gear force spellpower half dmg is still dmg...

the only way to make melee cleric work with ok dmg is to splash something that adds dmg and has synergy. axel's build adds pally to make CHA worthwhile for both DV and saves and adds kotc. if you splash another class you use tier5 like tempest or kensei to get the dmg in and adapt the stats to synergize with that. there is no aura + S&B + lore appropriate WIS and CHA + take some caster feats for SP + cleaves = melee dps. does not work. itll work EN, and be able to do EH at cumbersome speed. if the boundaries you set exclude all ways of splashing in something viable then it remains gimp, sry


at least use a feat swap, drop extra turns for improved critical slash or bludgeon depending on wpn of choice...

[FranOhmsford]

well, idk then. you want to play a cleric like a pally with better heals but ddo dont build them like that. if you want some cha on your cleric for lore reasons do a pally splash or its wasted stat points except for DV. if you want wis on your cleric for lore, do a caster or anything above 12 is wasted stat points if it isnt a zen archery build.

See this is my problem in a nutshell:

A Pure Wis Caster Cleric = A Weak Wizard!
A Pure Str Melee Cleric = A THF Fighter with less DPS and more Heals {Paladin and Barb are miles ahead!}.
A Max Cha Turn Specced Cleric = An undersupported and therefore gimp Build despite TU being the one thing above all others that defines a Cleric {neither Druids nor FvSs get this!}.

A Cleric is not a Wizard with self healing or a Fighter with self healing.
A Cleric is a Cleric!
Cleric is a Multi-Attribute Dependant Class because it has multiple abilities that rely on different attributes - Changing TU from Wis {Willpower} based to Charisma {Force of Personality} Based was a BIG MISTAKE that the Devs need to fix {simple thing would be to allow Paladins to use FoP to use Cha instead - It's a decent Pally Feat anyway.}.


as for enlarge, no its not that important rly. it IS important on a pure caster for destruction but thats not the issue here.

From everything DDO Based I've ever heard/read since 2010 Enlarge has always been seen as a completely worthless Feat for a Caster and a waste of a slot - What's Changed? Clerics are Feat Starved anyway and how do you fit in Enlarge when you need Spell Focus, Spell Pen, Mental Toughness, Imp Mental Toughness, Emp Heal, Emp/Max, Heighten AND Quicken not to mention Intensify and other Epic Metas?


we're back to what i initially said then though, add 1 more fighter level for tier4 in defender, make it sturdy and otherwise be a healer and nvm dps, run in groups.

This is pretty much how I was thinking - The problem is fitting in Melee Feats while also maintaining decent spell use.


just having cleave and g-cleave and dropping some points in kensei isnt gonna get you much dmg on a S&B. the build i proposed isnt great dmg either anyways.

Yup - Which is why I also need decent spell use.


as for BB, yeah they will always save for half dmg, but if you gear force spellpower than half dmg is still dmg...

I suppose there is a lot more Spellpower/Crit Gear around nowadays but the problem is fitting it in - Especially when on a Melee oriented build the Weapon slots are not available.

With Wisdom, Cha, Strength, Con, Fortification, Resistance, Deathblock and Sheltering non-negotiable where do I fit in Spellpower+Crits? {And then there's also the loss of Deadly, Ghostly etc. that mean my melee ability is correspondingly weaker.}.

This is why I keep saying Cleric especially but FvS too needs a complete overhaul!

Because every time I ask what I should do with my Clerics on these forums the answer is pretty much play something else! {Souls less so because I can see the idea of a Divine Sorc - I just can't see how FvS comes anywhere close to Sorc!}.



at least use a feat swap, drop extra turns for improved critical slash or bludgeon depending on wpn of choice...

Pretty sure Imp. Crit was going to be my Lvl 16 Feat as Fighter 4 and Heighten Lvl 18 Feat.

[FranOhmsford]

I really didn't want this thread to devolve into yet another rant from me about the state of Clerics in DDO.

I really wanted some advice on making a Cleric that is actually viable as a Cleric.

But it seems that just isn't possible with the way things are currently.



My first character to Lvl 20 was a Human Battle Cleric who swapped between S+B, Quarterstaff and sometimes a Greatsword.
She was also my first character to Lvl 25
AND the ONLY one of my characters to have completed 20 Shrouds {pre MotU too}!

Yes she was gimpy and not a solo capable character in the least but I remember fondly healing Shrouds, HoX Tank+Puppies and even a VoD on her.
She's now a Sacred KotC Paladin and will remain so for the next 3 lives!

Because MotU and everything after it has destroyed Cleric!

[Eryhn]

enlarge is situationally useful though many will skip it for other feats that add to defense or dmg. enlarged heals can be situationally handy. enlarged destruct can oneshot beholders or casters before they aggro and can touch you. enlarged ray spells have very big range.

if you go 15/4/1 i rly dont know about casting for dmg. there is no this and that. either you do melee. then your spells used consist of buffs, heals, and the odd but overall rare bb or cometfall to open a fight. lacking 5 caster levels and sacrificing some feats for melee and then using spells for dmg as if you were a pure caster dont work. you can pull stunts like that on a 36p +5 tomes PL dcs and spellpen toon and it STILL will suck.

or you do casting. then the 3 or 4 fighter levels are a serious detriment, as are 34 points in servant which you lack in the caster tree. you can heighten and maximise all you want you'll end at crappy dcs at an ungodly spellpoint cost.

the issue has best been summed up in the discussion elsewhere: dont bring DnD class expectation to DDO. period. you have to make a choice here and the choice should be determined by what the game mechanics offer or DONT offer you. you cant be somebody with a healing aura and strong heal spells that blasts mobs to cinders and then chops of the evil bosses head with a divinely empowered swing of your holy weapon.

the build is a terrible basis for grinding destinies and that cannot be very well helped as it stands now. other than staying healer with added defenses, and i mean HEALER, not caster, other alternative is TR out of this: say goodbye to your aura, 6 kensei for 20 MP, crit enhance and crit multi, add in kopesh, level up LD, keep running in LD to blitz your way to cap, only use high xp slayer ranks and saga turn ins to build up in other destinies. TR into 36p FVS after the FVS pass, give that build some thought in advance, maybe be a happy camper XD

[Powerhungry]

Having played may main through cleric lives and an alt through cleric lives - with the current state of clerics, a battle is an up hill battle. I have given up trying to build a classic battle cleric until they get around to fixing them (early 2017 I think was the plan). Switch to a pure WIS caster cleric and you'll enjoy playing the class much more. While still way behind all other casters it's far less miserable than trying to play a melee cleric. Greater command and implosion will be your new best friends (at high levels). If you enjoy chugging mana pots, ruin and greater ruin will help in legendary content.

[Drecas]

You need to multiclass your cleric with a powerful melee class if you want to play a melee cleric.

6 levels of fighter for +1 critical threat & multiplier is not bad. Throw in 2 levels of barbarian for Ear Smash and you got a nice stun too.

If you want charisma to damage, multiclass with a bard and make a swashbuckler cleric.

Or add paladin levels for saves. Max your charisma to achieve high saves, strength is the easiest stat to raise, add Divine Might for some easy +STR and then twist Soundburst from exalted angel for an effective AoE stun. Won't work in EE but you said you'll be mostly running in EN/EH.

You got options.

[Drecas]

Realistic stats for a 12 cleric / 5 paladin / 3 fighter

Charisma: 18 + 7 level ups + 3 tome + 14 equipment + 2 ship buffs + 2 yugo + 2 remnant potion + 4 enhancement = 52 charisma
Strength: 13 + 2 tome + 14 equipment + 2 ship buffs + 2 remnant + 21 divine might + 6 sacred = 60 strength
Constitution: 15 + 3 tome + 14 equipment + 2 ship buffs + 2 remnant + 6 sacred = 42 constitution

Saves:

12 cleric {8 Fort - 4 Ref - 8 Will}
3 fighter {3 Fort - 1 Ref - 1 Will}
5 paladin {4 Fort - 1 Ref - 1 Will}
--------------------------------------
15 Fort - 6 Ref - 10 Will base
+3 ship
+4 GH
+17 divine grace
+16 constitution
+21 charisma (will)
+ 12 resistance
Total not counting enhancements:

67 fort
42 ref
55 will

Soundburst DC:
Fortitude (DC 10 + character level (30) + charisma mod (21)) = 61 DC

[FranOhmsford]

Realistic stats for a 12 cleric / 5 paladin / 3 fighter

Charisma: 18 + 7 level ups + 3 tome + 14 equipment + 2 ship buffs + 2 yugo + 2 remnant potion + 4 enhancement = 52 charisma
Strength: 13 + 2 tome + 14 equipment + 2 ship buffs + 2 remnant + 21 divine might + 6 sacred = 60 strength
Constitution: 15 + 3 tome + 14 equipment + 2 ship buffs + 2 remnant + 6 sacred = 42 constitution

Saves:

12 cleric {8 Fort - 4 Ref - 8 Will}
3 fighter {3 Fort - 1 Ref - 1 Will}
5 paladin {4 Fort - 1 Ref - 1 Will}
--------------------------------------
15 Fort - 6 Ref - 10 Will base
+3 ship
+4 GH
+17 divine grace
+16 constitution
+21 charisma (will)
+ 12 resistance
Total not counting enhancements:

67 fort
42 ref
55 will

Soundburst DC:
Fortitude (DC 10 + character level (30) + charisma mod (21)) = 61 DC

Sacred Defender beats Stalwart so do you actually get anything at all from the 3rd Fighter Level?

13 Cleric gets a Lvl 7 Spell and slightly better TU potential.
Still can have the 5 Paladin and 2 Fighter levels.

[cru121]

okay, so you got cleaves and shield feats.
go up to fighter 6 for +1 threat.
wield some weapon with naturally wide threat range: rapier / kukri / scimitar or falchion - 15-20x3.
Oathblade at level 20 if you can get it.

What did you grab out of the Anniversary bag?
Do you have a Raider's Reward Box or two available?

Either embrace clerichood and pick up Radiant Servant T5 or focus on damage with T5 in Kensei.
I'd probably try RS. 11ish AP in kensai and vanguard, 1 AP in EK, 4 AP in Warpriest, a 32+ in Radiant Servant, 0 in race, rest in stalwart.

What shield do you want to use? Demonic Slab is nice. Wall of Wood lvl 17 (harder to get) or lvl 22 (easy to get) is nice for devotion and heal amp.
Work on your heal amp! It's one of your most important defensive stats.

Skip gianthold and necro; instead farm the hell out of U27-31 heroic content to pick up gear. Halcyonia, Riftmaker, Demonic Slab, the 6piece quality set, Pansophic Circlet, Ring of Prowess, those PRR boots... Many of those should serve you well this life or later.

[Robbenklopper]

14 Cleric for 7th Lvl MCSW / 6 Fighter for feats and C3 Options.

I know you wanna run S&B. If you want WIS to DMG, there are heavy maces to be found. Else go STR and weapons with wide crit range
High STR and WIS from creation
Max STR if you wanna try DPS and Stuns , WIS if you wanna Defense and Casts.

Edit: Sorry to oversee you´re not human, so ofc no DMG-Boost (facepalm myself)

4 AP Kensei for haste.
7 AP Harper for KtA
13 AP VG and for core 3, Brutality, Stunning shield, Fatal bulwark
33 AP Radiant Servant T5
23 AP SD for Strong Defense and Reinforced Armor

At least the mains:
Power Attack
Stunnig blow
Cleave
Shield Mastery
Improved bashing shield
IC: whatever you choose
OC
Dire Charge
Some Tactics
eDR
Any else to boost your Healings

Work up in LD to have Momentum Swing and/or Legendary Tactics for Twist-ins available.
Word up in US to have Legendary Shield Mastery for Twist in available

I think you´ll be able to deal with any EH Content, have some acceptable DPS with CC and AOEs, have not bad PRR, acceptable saves, okayish AC and good healings. EE possible in Group.

[Enderoc]

It's in your stat distribution. You want to put all your level ups in strength. I usually do 14 wis 10 charisma for a base with 16 str.

[Grailhawk]

So some of the post seam to imply you want W&S combat style there are only 3 ways to do that in DDO.

12+ Fighter
12+ Paladin
SWF + 3+ Bard

Only one of those options can work for a cleric my suggestion would be 11/6/3 Cleric/Fighter/Bard

SWF + Kensei T5 + Skirmisher from Swashbuckler

If you aren't stuck on W&S combat style then I think 14/6 or 12/6/2 or 11/6/3 Cleric/Fighter/x is the right split with ~40 AP in Kensei, 13 AP Defender, rest where ever you want it. I don't see how this doesn't play like a PnP battle cleric the way that was always played was cast buffs on self go in to combat pretending to be a fighter with an option to heal.

[Eth]

I will buy the +1 Heart if no-one can work up a viable build with the 1 Wizard Level so feel free to treat this as a blank slate Battle Cleric with 3 Ftr Levels already in the Build.


1 Wiz on a battle cleric is totally fine. The only problem might be locking you out of a better third class split. Otherwise getting an extra feat is usually more useful than taking another cleric level.
17/2/1 Cleric/Fighter/Wiz was actually one of the first builds I made when I started playing DDO. :D

[unbongwah]

Presuming your focus is on party heals + melee DPS, I would probably do cleric 13 / ftr 6 / wiz 1 like Eryhn; but unless you're committed to S&B, I would switch to SWF w/khopesh: higher melee DPS, save some feats & APs by dropping VG+Shield Mastery, and you get to equip orbs (ML Starter orb to begin, switch to Blazing Sun later). I'm also not sure why Eryhn went for high INT instead of high CHA + Div Might, as this isn't really a skill-focused build.

32 APs RS, 11 APs Kensei, 13 APs SD, 4 APs WP to start; sprinkle the rest as you see fit. There's enough left over to fit in Ameliorating Strike, but not much else. Divine Crusader would be my primary choice; it's the best melee+healer hybrid ED, IMO.

[Enoach]

Now build and playstyle may have a factor here but you could consider embracing your Wizard Level on an Elf (More flavor)

Right now you have 11 Cleric/3 Ftr/1 Wiz

The direction you have gone means DC casting is not going to be strong, so your damage spells need to focus more on the non-save or except the 1/2 to no damage on save spells.

Now what I mean by embrace the Wizard levels is to Extend this to 5 Levels of Wizard and 4 Levels of Fighter.

This will get you another Fighter Feat and Two Meta Feats. it will also open up Level 3 spells giving you a self cast Displacement that at epic levels could have the same duration as clickies

You will then have access to the EK tree's cleave as well as elemental damage and defense.

Personally, I have found that when you can't go max DPS, then use of supplemental damage effects can go a long way. Also, maximizing multiple hits either via double strike or shield bash percentage.

----------------------------
I have a Pure Level 20 Cleric. starting strength is 14. This allows for Wisdom to continue to be the primary and use of spells to supplement melee. Now, you seem to see Cleric as a poor wizard and that kind of attitude is detrimental to build development.

I actually use War Priest and while it is not perfect and it could be better in places it still is a good base for a Melee cleric. It is feat starved vs a fighter, and sure I can't do melee damage alone in the same caliber as high DPS melee builds. But you can't base DPS on only one aspect when there are others available to contribute.

[FranOhmsford]

Now build and playstyle may have a factor here but you could consider embracing your Wizard Level on an Elf (More flavor)

Right now you have 11 Cleric/3 Ftr/1 Wiz

The direction you have gone means DC casting is not going to be strong, so your damage spells need to focus more on the non-save or except the 1/2 to no damage on save spells.

Now what I mean by embrace the Wizard levels is to Extend this to 5 Levels of Wizard and 4 Levels of Fighter.

This will get you another Fighter Feat and Two Meta Feats. it will also open up Level 3 spells giving you a self cast Displacement that at epic levels could have the same duration as clickies

You will then have access to the EK tree's cleave as well as elemental damage and defense.

I like the look of this.

But with 5 levels of Wizard what Spells are we talking about here?

Lvl 1: Nightshield, Prot: Evil already taken in Cleric Slots, DSD pointless by the time I get it = Master's Touch, Jump, Feather Fall and Sonic Blast maybe?
Lvl 2: Blur, Invis, Scorching Ray?
Lvl 3: Haste + Displacement?



With only 11 Cleric Levels Heighten, Spell Focus and Spell Pen would be pointless, Quicken unnecessary because no Mass Heal - Second Meta would almost automatically be either Extend or Imp. Mental Toughness?


Ooh and Wizard Spells in Heavy Armour - Can I fit in enough ASF or do I have to have a robe swap in for displacement once a minute?

[cru121]

displacement has no somatic component - yay!

[Eryhn]

Presuming your focus is on party heals + melee DPS, I would probably do cleric 13 / ftr 6 / wiz 1 like Eryhn; but unless you're committed to S&B, I would switch to SWF w/khopesh: higher melee DPS, save some feats & APs by dropping VG+Shield Mastery, and you get to equip orbs (ML Starter orb to begin, switch to Blazing Sun later). I'm also not sure why Eryhn went for high INT instead of high CHA + Div Might, as this isn't really a skill-focused build.

32 APs RS, 11 APs Kensei, 13 APs SD, 4 APs WP to start; sprinkle the rest as you see fit. There's enough left over to fit in Ameliorating Strike, but not much else. Divine Crusader would be my primary choice; it's the best melee+healer hybrid ED, IMO.

Im running 9/8/3 kensei pally splash dual kopesh with divine might on my main that gets stunning blow and dire charge to work w/o KTA and currently have a 12/6/2 first life with maul also with STR/CHA divine might that goes for no stun at all - so its not like I'd shun divine might, tis good on melee cleric :D The KTA idea was born cause i assumed he could LR0 with free heart, is stuck on morninglord and wants S&B + aura. so i figured dps is gonna be meh at least make stuns work well, hence KTA - maybe a brainfart idk XD

in any case i like your SWF + Orb most of all the suggestions, didnt rly think of that. both heroic and epic blazing sun are super easily farmed and are nice options - and SWF is good option regardless of where he takes the fighter wiz/ distribution ...

hmm. except he'd have to swap out a lot of feats for orb? prly shield mastery and imp shield mastery for SWF ISWF and then there is the issue of balance requirements .. so SWF would require a LR0 realistically speaking which he said he has not available for free ...

[savingsoul]

If you want charisma to damage, multiclass with a bard and make a swashbuckler cleric.


I've been working on swashbuckler clerics for a while now. When I last searched the forums, there was not much to be found on bard/clerics. Could you point me to any links or perhaps post a build you've made in the past?

Here is my recent post on some of the variations I've considered. Your advice would be greatly appreciated. If you find the time, please post on that thread to avoid redundancy.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/475893-Healers-are-Back!-Heals-and-Kills-3-Ultimate-Battle-Clerics

[savingsoul]

So some of the post seam to imply you want W&S combat style there are only 3 ways to do that in DDO.

12+ Fighter
12+ Paladin
SWF + 3+ Bard

Only one of those options can work for a cleric my suggestion would be 11/6/3 Cleric/Fighter/Bard

SWF + Kensei T5 + Skirmisher from Swashbuckler

If you aren't stuck on W&S combat style then I think 14/6 or 12/6/2 or 11/6/3 Cleric/Fighter/x is the right split with ~40 AP in Kensei, 13 AP Defender, rest where ever you want it. I don't see how this doesn't play like a PnP battle cleric the way that was always played was cast buffs on self go in to combat pretending to be a fighter with an option to heal.

You need 8 levels of Fighter to take full advantage of Kensei T5, and the competence bonuses to crit from fighter do not stack w/ the one's you can get from swashbuckler with only 3 levels of bard. Also, see my reply above to Drecas. I'd really appreciate any feedback you might have.

[savingsoul]

Presuming your focus is on party heals + melee DPS, I would probably do cleric 13 / ftr 6 / wiz 1 like Eryhn; but unless you're committed to S&B, I would switch to SWF w/khopesh: higher melee DPS, save some feats & APs by dropping VG+Shield Mastery, and you get to equip orbs (ML Starter orb to begin, switch to Blazing Sun later). I'm also not sure why Eryhn went for high INT instead of high CHA + Div Might, as this isn't really a skill-focused build.

32 APs RS, 11 APs Kensei, 13 APs SD, 4 APs WP to start; sprinkle the rest as you see fit. There's enough left over to fit in Ameliorating Strike, but not much else. Divine Crusader would be my primary choice; it's the best melee+healer hybrid ED, IMO.

In another world, you would be a regular elf rather than a sun elf so you could use scimitars w/ swf and apply the warpriest enhancements to your weapon. I think using khopesh is an good option too though if you are not a regular elf, even if it costs you a feat.

In yet another world, you would be drow, take 3 levels of bard, perhaps 1 or 2 levels of fighter (for the feats, and maybe haste and tactics), apply the vulkoor warpriest (and the kensei) enhancements to your short swords, and tap into swashbuckler for a competence bonus to critical threat range and multiplier . . . catch your breath . . . and swf w/ an orb.

Also, see my replies above to Drecas and Grailhawk. I'd really appreciate any feedback you might have.

[unbongwah]

You need 8 levels of Fighter to take full advantage of Kensei T5, and the competence bonuses to crit from fighter do not stack w/ the one's you can get from swashbuckler with only 3 levels of bard.8 ftr is only necessary if you want the last two tiers of Weapon Spec / Master; +5 dmg is nothing to sneeze at, of course, but it won't ruin your battlecleric w/out it, esp. if you're planning to take T5 RS anyway.

Also, Swashbuckling + SwNT will stack if you use either handaxes (+2 crit range +1 multiplier) or lt picks (+1 range +1 multiplier); plus it only costs 17 APs, though odds are you'll spend at least 5 more for Skirmisher or Arcane Marauder. This is possibly helpful to a BC b/c you don't need either PrE's T5, which leaves T5 RS for aura open. :) Downside is needing bard 3 / ftr 6, meaning you can only take cleric 11; but that's still enough for Heal.

[Theolin]

I would go with 11c / 6 ftr / 3 wiz & go t5 in SD or Vanguard (& enough of the other for its goodies) & Pos energy burst & then take the 10 ppr from EK & flesh out the rest with warpreist.

This way you should get very nice ppr, decent damage with cleaves as you will have 3 with the EK one, (& 1 more with LD) and all of them will reset the lay waste.
for healing I would rely on heal & cocoon and the little masses when needed

To me the must haves
Divine might
SD stance
Pos E burst
Eldritchstrike

The nice to haves
greater SD stance (Str& HP)
inflame
stunning shield
Strike With No Thought