Why do Clerics has to be evil (NECRO) to be good to play?

[Wuten]

It seems game makes evil the best thing for any character to be good to play. Just see the description for Warlocks! If you have to take the evil enhancements to be worth playing at all, then the game has a problem. And don't tell me "it's a game" because all choices matter, even in a game.

[Dhalgren]

It seems game makes evil the best thing for any character to be good to play. Just see the description for Warlocks! If you have to take the evil enhancements to be worth playing at all, then the game has a problem. And don't tell me "it's a game" because all choices matter, even in a game.

I'm afraid I am not sure what you mean. Warlocks have made a pact with an entity of some kind, and in some cases, it's very much a case of having "sold their soul to the devil", so that is thematically appropriate.

However I'm not sure what this has to do with clerics. Are you referring to some of their spells being based in necromancy (I gather some people equate death with evil)?

[FranOhmsford]

One of the best additions to D&D was the Complete Book of Necromancers for AD&D 2nd Ed.
http://www.taladas.de/php/download_ebene/downloads/AD&D%20-%20complete%20book%20of%20necromancers.pdf

Along with giving kits like the Deathslayer {Van Helsing basically} that are for good Necromancers AND adding in Necromantic Healing Spells like Empathic Wound Transfer for Necro Wizards it listed the spells that are considered on their own to be Evil:


Forbidden Spells of Black Necromancy
Lvl 1: Chill Touch, Corpse Visage, Exterminate.
Lvl 2: Choke, Ghoul Touch, Rain of Blood.
Lvl 3: Bone Club, Mummy Touch, Pain Touch, Vampiric Touch, Skull Trap.
Lvl 4: Beltyn's Burning Blood, Brainkill, Contagion, Enervation.
Lvl 5: Bone Blight, Mummy Rot, Summon Shadow, Throbbing Bones.
Lvl 6: Blackmantle, Dead Man's Eyes, Death Spell {Circle of Death in DDO}, Flames of Justice, Ghoul Gauntlet, Grimwald's Gray Mantle, Lich Touch.
Lvl 7: Finger of Death, Suffocate.
Lvl 8: Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, Deathlink, Deathshroud, Defoliate, Shadow Form.
Lvl 9: Conflagration, Death Ward {closer to Symbol of Death in DDO than Deathward}, Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee.
Highlight if you can't read black on grey.

Animate Dead did not need to be on the list because it was already considered an Evil Spell in the Player's Handbook itself!

I'm slightly surprised that Chill Touch is there because it does have a non-Evil use against Undead but it's other use IS Evil!

The continued use of any of those Spells is likely to attract the attention of extraplanar beings, send the caster mad and result in alignment moving towards Evil!



For Clerics in DDO yes Slay Living and Destruction could be considered like FoD to be an Evil Spell of Black Necromancy but Necromancy itself used to incl. {and still should frankly!} Raise Dead and Resurrection!

The problem lies in that DDO is a game where unlike PnP those Spells are basically required! {In PnP casting Destruction would be an absolute last resort for a neutral Cleric and not even considered by a good Cleric because there are plenty of other options in PnP! In DDO Cleric/Soul Spell lists are incredibly tight!}.

[FranOhmsford]

I'm afraid I am not sure what you mean. Warlocks have made a pact with an entity of some kind, and in some cases, it's very much a case of having "sold their soul to the devil", so that is thematically appropriate.


In DDO it's an extraplanar entity and doesn't have to be an Evil One!
Fey and Great Old One Warlocks are allowed to be Good aligned!

The problem here is the specific Enhancement: Utterdark Blast {which means all your damage is now Evil AND an Evil that ignores all alignment based DRs which it shouldn't!}.


Utterdark Blast is nigh on considered a requirement for ALL Warlocks {I'm not sure myself but it certainly does help with gear consolidation} - The problem is that it has become a required ability rather than Warlock Players being seen as ok to not choose it!

[Dhalgren]

In DDO it's an extraplanar entity and doesn't have to be an Evil One!
Fey and Great Old One Warlocks are allowed to be Good aligned!

The problem here is the specific Enhancement: Utterdark Blast {which means all your damage is now Evil AND an Evil that ignores all alignment based DRs which it shouldn't!}.


Utterdark Blast is nigh on considered a requirement for ALL Warlocks {I'm not sure myself but it certainly does help with gear consolidation} - The problem is that it has become a required ability rather than Warlock Players being seen as ok to not choose it!

You appear to have missed the "...in some cases..." part.

Calm down and read it again.

[FranOhmsford]

You appear to have missed the "...in some cases..." part.

Calm down and read it again.

No I didn't "miss it" I just ignored it. Because we're not talking about "some" Warlocks here are we!

The OP simply pointed out that a certain enhancement is considered a requirement {btw my Lock hasn't taken it and I do fine without it but I have been told off by players on these forums multiple times for not doing so!}.

It doesn't matter one jot if "in some cases" the Warlock has literally made a deal with a Devil {in fact in those cases the Warlock cannot be Good aligned anyway!} because we're not talking about Fiend Pact Locks here {the OP doesn't want to make a pact with a Fiend even in game he certainly doesn't have to - It's frankly the weakest pact anyway!}.

But it doesn't matter what your Pact is - Utterdark Blast is seemingly a requirement for many players and frankly that's because the downside to taking it doesn't exist! {No "Good" Warlock should be able to take this Enhancement full stop OR there should be a separate Light Version of it so players don't feel forced into playing an "Evil" Character.}.


Warlocks in D&D make pacts with extra-planar beings - Those extra-planar beings can be of any alignment and from any plane except the Prime Material!

In DDO we have less choices - Fey {Fairies}, Fiend {Devils} or Great Old One {Demons} - Two of those choices yes are likely Evil and it's unlikely a Warlock player who chose GOO would choose to be Good Aligned {Good is not allowed for Fiend anyway} but why should a Warlock who makes a Fey Pact be told he's gimp because he hasn't taken an Enhancement that is blatantly against his alignment?




Anyway - My advice to the OP is:
IGNORE those telling you Utterdark Blast is Required to make a decent Lock - They don't know what they're talking about - This is a clear case of the devs putting in an unfettered and overpowered enhancement and the player base turning it from a voluntary option to a requirement!
SKIP Utterdark Blast!
It's NOT required!
You can make a perfectly serviceable Fey Lock without it! {You just need to work your gear around adding in the Force Damage/Crit buffs as well as Sonic and Light.

And if you're an Acid Lock why are you good aligned in the first place? You can't be Lawful so the Pally splash isn't available to you anyway!


P.S. DDO does allow Chaotic Neutral, which can be roleplayed as basically insane anyway so if you really want to play a Fire Lock there is an alignment to suit.

[Enoach]

It seems game makes evil the best thing for any character to be good to play. Just see the description for Warlocks! If you have to take the evil enhancements to be worth playing at all, then the game has a problem. And don't tell me "it's a game" because all choices matter, even in a game.

I believe what you are experiencing is the power at 11 syndrome. It is not required, but because a mindset exists that you must be at this power level to be successful. The funny thing is a power level of 6 is actually all you really need.

Utterdark's evil damage is boosted by the same spell power that powers the Light damage. Because of this combining Light and Alignment damage effects means you need fewer spell power items and you get double the punch. Now in theory Evil Damage should not effect Evil creatures, but in Eberron setting very little is Evil.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Is it more evil to kill someone with negative energy than it is to kill them with light or fire?

[Feralthyrtiaq]

I believe what you are experiencing is the power at 11 syndrome. It is not required, but because a mindset exists that you must be at this power level to be successful. The funny thing is a power level of 6 is actually all you really need.

Utterdark's evil damage is boosted by the same spell power that powers the Light damage. Because of this combining Light and Alignment damage effects means you need fewer spell power items and you get double the punch. Now in theory Evil Damage should not effect Evil creatures, but in Eberron setting very little is Evil.

Consolidates gear a bit for sure but Utterdark also gives you more bang for your buck from ED Feat Light Spell Power, EA Radiant Spell Power.

[FranOhmsford]

Is it more evil to kill someone with negative energy than it is to kill them with light or fire?

In PnP yes!

This is brought up in the book I linked where it is stated that at least one of those neg energy spells makes Raise Dead useless!

There is also only one single use for Finger of Death or Slay Living whereas there are multiple uses for Fireball or Lightning Bolt - This is a case where the former is Evil in its own right while the latter is only considered evil in certain situations.

A Fire Sorc going from village to village fireballing peasants is NOT a good guy!
The Necromancer who even memorizes Finger of Death upon finding the spell can not be any non Evil alignment other than possibly Chaotic Neutral in the first place!




And yes you could perhaps come up with situations where a finger of death could be used for Good but in those situations there are plenty of other less controversial spells you could have learned instead!
Learning it in the first place is the problem here as there's literally no reason to other than to go around murdering people! {FoD and Circle of Death had level/hp limits on them too so you couldn't really use them on that super evil Lvl 20 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon anyway and certainly not on the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigBad him/herself!}.



These level limits are basically not there in DDO!
And frankly all our characters do {even the Lawful Good ones} is go around murdering people! {This is actually worse with the scenario being Eberron where Kobolds, Orcs, Hobgobs etc. etc. etc. aren't even majority Evil and our characters have very few excuses for doing what they do!}.

BUT: It still seems strange to role-players from PnP to be railroaded into taking blatantly Evil options!
- I do love btw that Gnomon asks you a straight up question and the first thing many characters do is tell an outright lie BEFORE being asked to go murder a bunch of SovHost worshippers! Even better when the character is a SovHost worshipper - Gnomon's not tricking anyone in that quest....The players trick themselves!
- Running with the Devils is actually slightly worse as we know full well the guys we're murdering are good AND any PnP group would instantly realise from the NPC dialogue that those NPCs had been tricked and would go for non-lethal measures!

[FranOhmsford]

Consolidates gear a bit for sure but Utterdark also gives you more bang for your buck from ED Feat Light Spell Power, EA Radiant Spell Power.

A Fey Warlock does not have to be in EA though!

Fatesinger is actually pretty strong for this build!
US is a very good choice too!

Acid and Fire Locks are better off in Draconic anyway!

[Enoach]

A Fey Warlock does not have to be in EA though!

Fatesinger is actually pretty strong for this build!
US is a very good choice too!

Acid and Fire Locks are better off in Draconic anyway!

This is only focusing on the Pact's damage. The Pact damage is the only part of the blast that has a save. Enhancements like utterdark focus on the Force part of the damage, it is the part that does not have a save but force damage is not always the best choice.

You appear to have a strong feeling towards what you consider an evil spell

Based on the d20 system neither Finder of Death or Circle of Death is considered an Evil spell, it is categorized as [Death]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor


The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, darkness, death, earth, electricity, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, sonic, and water.

Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on.


In simple terms the descriptor is there to clarify how other things interact. In the case of FoD a spell like Protection from Evil would not work, but something that protects from Death would.

Here is a good link to a 3.5 spell search engine http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/spellSearch.html

If you do a search by Descriptor you will find the following spells listed with the Evil Descriptor


Animate Dead
Blasphemy
Create Greater Undead
Create Undead <- DDO Spell
Curse Water
Death Knell
Deathwatch
Desecrate
Eyebite
Magic Circle against Good
Nightmare
Protection from Good
Symbol of Pain <- DDO Spell
Unhallow
Unholy Aura
Unholy Blight <- DDO Spell


We have 3 Evil Descriptor spells in DDO, but Finger of Death and Circle of Death are not one of them. In a setting like we have killing is necessary to keep evil in check. Sometimes that means killing good creatures that are under control by evil ones. And the Shroud quest Running with the Devils is not the only place this theme occurs.