Fighter - Kensei upcoming changes (and SD tweaks)

[Severlin]

Greetings,

We are looking to improve the Fighter to make it more competitive with other classes. We have already begun the process by allowing Fighters to take feats to add lots of Tactical bonuses and extra passive mitigation. We want to further boost the class with enhancement trees changes.

We are currently looking at tweaks to Stalwart Defender and some solid Kensai changes.

(I just wanted to say that these changes will likely be tweaked further as we do more DPS testing as we implement the changes and incorporate player feedback.)

Stalwart Defender

Stand Fast: When activated you also gain +4 bonus on all saves for 20 seconds.

Last Stand: The passive portion of the enhancement is improved to be: +2 Constitution, +2 Strength, +10 Physical Resistance Rating, +10 Magical Resistance Rating, and +2 to the DCS of all Tactical Feats.

Vanguard

Fix the bug with the DC of Shield Charge.

Kensai

Core Abilities

Strike with No Thought: You also gain a +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier.

Power Surge: You gain +8 Psionic bonus to all attributes for 60 seconds. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki

Alacrity:

+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats



Tier One

Action Boost:
Attack Boost now adds +4/+6/+8 to hit and damage for 20 seconds.
Fix the bug where the 3rd Haste Boost says it lasts 30 seconds.

Reed In the Wind: Cooldown is reduced to 15 seconds. Damage increased to +1/+2/+3[W].

Tier Two

Improved Dodge AP cost changed to 1/1/1.
Improved Dodge now has a multi-selector.
Improved Defense: +2/+4/+6 Physical Resistance Rating.

Weapon Meditation is removed.

Ascetic Training:
Conditioning changed to +1/2/3 Fortitude Saves, +5/+10+15 Hit Points, +5/+10+15 Fortification

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

Tier Three

Critical Accuracy changed to Critical Mastery.
Add Critical Mastery: +1/2/3 bonus to critical damage and to confirm critical hits.

Improved Mobility removed.
Add Athletic Mastery: +1/+2/+3 Maximum Dexterity Bonus and Dodge Cap, -1/-2/-3 Armor Check Penalty. Works in any armor.

Shattering Strike: Cooldown reduced to 10 seconds, Fortification loss no longer has a saving throw. No longer requires Weapon Mediation.

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

Tier Four

Critical Damage removed as it was combined into the tier three Critical Mastery.

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

New: Strike at the Heart: Your weapon attacks have the Improved Destruction effect.

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows. Requirement changed to Weapon Focus.

(We are discussing the possibility of another enhancement in this tier that we are not ready to reveal.)

Tier Five

A Good Death: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds. Extra damage now activates if target is below 30% health. Extra damage scales with Melee Power. Requirements are removed.

One with the Blade: You also gain, as part of the passive bonus, +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. Requirements are removed.

Deadly Strike: No longer requires an action boost. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds. Change the on vorpal ability to cause an extra 500 damage which scales with 400% melee power.

New: Weapon Master: You gain +3 to hit and damage with all weapons.

Sev~

[skaught78]

Really?! Like really really?
How many times are you going to tweak around with fighter? I've lost count of how many times you have messed with this class...

Meanwhile, classes that people want to play that are falling way behind like wizard, arti, druid get left in the dust AGAIN...

Any hope for some tweaking of these classes?

[Axeyu]

The +1 crit multiplier in a level 6 core is fantastic. It will hopefully open up a lot of multiclasss options.

[ComicRelief]

Not to derail a Kensai specific thread, but there are those of us who play fighters yet don't like playing the "clickie cooldown" game, who don't particularly care for boosts or tactics. There's still no specific ENs for TWF or THF. The previous changes to SD were good in that it removed a lot of shield-specific ENs, but there could be (and should be IMO) more for the TWF and THF fighters. I've always asserted that fighters are (arguably) the most flexible class, and yet we seem pigeon-holed by the ENs into being "specialists" (kensai) focusing on specific classes of weapons or "sword & board" - no TWF, no THF, and no "bowmen" (though, yes, the case can be made that if you're going to focus on using a bow, be a ranger, but that is besides the point). I'm not suggesting there be a fighter tempest or arcane archer EN lines, per se, but there are so many possible builds with fighter (DEX based, STR based, INT based, THW, TWF, SWF, etc.) the current ENs just feel limiting.

But no one listens to Zathras...
;)

[ForgettableNPC]

Wait, so the Improved Dodge AP cost is getting changed to 1/2/3 for 6 AP total?
Why not just keep it at 2/2/2? What's the point in changing it?

[Severlin]

Wait, so the Improved Dodge AP cost is getting changed to 1/2/3 for 6 AP total?
Why not just keep it at 2/2/2? What's the point in changing it?

1/1/1

In the past I would list the cumulative cost and I just did that again out of habit. Apologies.

Sev~

[Seikojin]

Really?! Like really really?
How many times are you going to tweak around with fighter? I've lost count of how many times you have messed with this class...

Meanwhile, classes that people want to play that are falling way behind like wizard, arti, druid get left in the dust AGAIN...

Any hope for some tweaking of these classes?
It has been shared a few times, but there is an order of necessity going on, and fighter was next on the list. I think Arty is next, but I can't search nor recall what was after fighter... Oh wait monk? Since Monk is terribly broken in design. They may push that off for a later date so they can fix it and druid at the same time.


The +1 crit multiplier in a level 6 core is fantastic. It will hopefully open up a lot of multiclasss options.

Well it won't stack with the others out there, so it won't be OP. However it does mean fighters will be critting hard fairly quickly.


Not to derail a Kensai specific thread, but there are those of us who play fighters yet don't like playing the "clickie cooldown" game, who don't particularly care for boosts or tactics. There's still no specific ENs for TWF or THF. The previous changes to SD were good in that it removed a lot of shield-specific ENs, but there could be (and should be IMO) more for the TWF and THF fighters. I've always asserted that fighters are (arguably) the most flexible class, and yet we seem pigeon-holed by the ENs into being "specialists" (kensai) focusing on specific classes of weapons or "sword & board" - no TWF, no THF, and no "bowmen" (though, yes, the case can be made that if you're going to focus on using a bow, be a ranger, but that is besides the point). I'm not suggesting there be a fighter tempest or arcane archer EN lines, per se, but there are so many possible builds with fighter (DEX based, STR based, INT based, THW, TWF, SWF, etc.) the current ENs just feel limiting.

But no one listens to Zathras...
;)

I wanted kensai to be retooled from the ground up, however we have to remind ourselves that we should not have it break existing playstyles. The buffs in kensai are less strict than before, so this will open up a twf or thf to get as equal as an advantage as other builds. And that is kind of the point of fighters anyways. The bard of melee. :D


Wait, so the Improved Dodge AP cost is getting changed to 1/2/3 for 6 AP total?
Why not just keep it at 2/2/2? What's the point in changing it?
Ninja'd by Sev. :)

Overall, I am looking forward to the changes, no matter how they come along. It does seem like being s&b will still be the way to go, but I will see how I fare as a kensai twf pure 20 fighter (which is what I wanted to be since day 1).

The stat boosts are awesome. I think removing requirements is clever. The t5's are good too, however the ranged stuff is lacking in the sense that you get generalized buffs, nothing immediately useful like a strike/shot combo. However I could see racial AA's liking some t5's here instead of the racial tree.

It will be interesting to see min/max doublestrike and shot builds for a bit on lam. See if they can eek out a few more pings of damage.

I still wish the specialization line just went away. Put it in tier 1 of the core, have it boost via cores, and add something in the specialization slots for different playstyles. Like anti-req formats, so you can pick one. And have it be swf, twf, and thf. Make the bonuses not always stack, so you can combo with barb or what-have-you, but not op.

Like replace the t1 specialization with a multi-selector:
1. Savant with one handed weapon: Can benefit from the swf feat and use any shield you are skilled with.
2. Flourishing duelist: While wielding two weapons, you gain +10% offhand strike chance.
3. Devastating heavy weapon user: While using a two handed weapon weapon, you gain +10% glancing blow damage.

Like replace the t2 specialization with a multi-selector:
1. Expert with one handed weapon: +5% doublestrike chance while SWF. (make bonuses not stack with other trees/abilities.)
2. Expert duelist: While wielding two weapons, you gain +10% offhand double strike chance.
3. Expert heavy weapon user: While using a two handed weapon weapon, you gain +10% glancing effect chance.

Like replace the t3 specialization with a multi-selector:
1. Master with one handed weapon: +1 to hit and damage per core in Kensai when SWF
2. Master duelist: While wielding two weapons, you gain +5% offhand double strike chance and +1 per kensai core to hit and damage.
3. Master heavy weapon user: While using a two handed weapon weapon, you gain +2 per core to hit and damage.

Like replace the t4 specialization with a multi-selector clickie:
1. Tactical with one handed weapon (action boost): For 20 seconds, your SWF strikes hit 2 targets instead of 1.
2. Tactical duelist (action boost): For 20 seconds; While wielding two weapons, you gain +10% chance to daze your opponents who are hit by your attacks.
3. Tactical heavy weapon user (action boost): For 20 seconds; While using a two handed weapon weapon, you gain +10% to knock opponents down with your attacks (Str DC = 10+Str/Con mod+Tactical DC enhancers).

[vyvy3369]

While it's great that you're re-considering the requirements for Weapon Group Specialization, it still seems like it could use some improvement. Tier 1 has no req. Tier 2 requires Weapon Focus. Tier 3 requires Weapon Specialization, which requires Fighter 4. Tier 4 now requires Weapon Focus again, instead of Greater Weapon Focus which required Fighter 8. I don't think this makes sense to require Fighter 4 for a Tier 3 enhancement. Perhaps move Weapon Specialization to Tier 4 Weapon Group Specialization?

While I enjoy the active combat nature of melee, Opportunity Attack sounds like too much work to keep it up for 10 Melee Power. The intent seems to be similar to Follow Up from Vanguard, which increases Melee Power by 3/6/9 for 12s, but that ability is triggered based on an active attack that I would be using even without Follow Up. In my opinion, either increase the duration and make it function more like a mini-Blitz (which is the other ability it seems based on), or tie it into some other active attack(s) that we would be using anyway. For example, perhaps 1-2 stacks of 5-10 Melee Power, with the 10% chance per hit to add another stack, max of 2. Or for the other alternative, maybe have it activate some % of the time when using any tactical ability.

[DagazUlf]

Just to preface things, I started playing DDO in pre-beta with my incarnation of my favorite PnP Fighter, and I've been waiting very patiently for this enhancement pass because I'm still playing him! So far, it is really not feeling like there's enough being done here.

My observations/feedback:

- Enhancing Criticals and Tactical Feats do seem like a good route for Kensai
- Something a little more "interesting" at that Tier 4 slot would really help
- Opportunity Attack seems kind of goofy/kludgy
- An additional tie-in from enhancements to the feats for beefing up Armor, or MRR, or PRR would help Fighters get a little more competitive
- We really, really need a sexy capstone here. Pretty lackluster at this point.

[CThruTheEgo]

Nothing very original here compared with previous class revamps. It would be nice if these revamps did something to distinguish the classes, rather than homogenize them. That's my opinion anyway.

+1 crit multiplier available at level 6 is a low level for a powerful ability. Reminds me of swashbuckler. Coupled with the stalwart defender tree, a 6 level fighter splash will offer a great deal of both offense and defense. Are you all (devs) sure this is the route you want to take? I realize many have expressed dislike that the +1 crit range/multiplier enhancements have been either tier 5s or level 12/18 cores and how that favors pure classes over multiclass builds, but with a change such as this we could see a 6 fighter splash become the new standard for many melee builds. It is definitely a change in favor of multiclass builds, which we haven't really had much of lately, so maybe it is an appropriate change.

[hirmor]

Meh... Not much there... Deadly Strike should have a range variant that scale with range power...

[count_spicoli]

THese changes are ok and will def improve fighter. But seems mostly generic too me. SInce kensai is the combat specialty enhancement tree for fighter why not add some kind of tactics cooldown shortner. SOmething like the cooldowns of your tactics is recuced by 1/2/3 seconds cumulitive so you could effectively reduce your cooldowns from 15 to 9. Putting no tactical bonuses in this tree seems bad to me.

ALso the change to last stand is ok except in game right now it gives +4 con which my dwarven con build stalwart really likes :). WOuld like to keep that. It also when you hit the hp boost it leaves your hp bar half empty. Would be cool if you made the hp bar full when you hit the hp boost since the cooldown is so long. RIght now it really does no good unless you got a johnny on the spot healer.

The change to power boost to all stats is muy bieno and the crit bonus in the tier 6 is really sweet. Overall i like it but would like to def see some tactics enhancements worked in.

[count_spicoli]

Not to derail a Kensai specific thread, but there are those of us who play fighters yet don't like playing the "clickie cooldown" game, who don't particularly care for boosts or tactics. There's still no specific ENs for TWF or THF. The previous changes to SD were good in that it removed a lot of shield-specific ENs, but there could be (and should be IMO) more for the TWF and THF fighters. I've always asserted that fighters are (arguably) the most flexible class, and yet we seem pigeon-holed by the ENs into being "specialists" (kensai) focusing on specific classes of weapons or "sword & board" - no TWF, no THF, and no "bowmen" (though, yes, the case can be made that if you're going to focus on using a bow, be a ranger, but that is besides the point). I'm not suggesting there be a fighter tempest or arcane archer EN lines, per se, but there are so many possible builds with fighter (DEX based, STR based, INT based, THW, TWF, SWF, etc.) the current ENs just feel limiting.

But no one listens to Zathras...
;)

This is just plain wrong. As someone with 15 fighter past lives you already have the ability to customize your fighter to thf or twf with all the feats you get. I have played many twf fighter lives and they are far from underwelming.

[count_spicoli]

And if you dont like tactics which is a fighters specialty as they are hand to hand combat specialists why not play a pally or a barb. Then you can just swing away until your hearts content.

[count_spicoli]

But first and foremost sev i want to say these changes are good and all but if i cant play the game due to this mess lag going then what good are they?

[Grailhawk]

Kensei
13 To Hit (Kensei Focus, Power Surge, Alacrity, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Master)
17.5 Damage (Spiritual Bond, Power Surge, Alacrity, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Master)
3 Seeker (Crtical Mastery)
19 Double Strike (Strike With No Thought, Alacrity)
0 Off Hand Double Strike)
0 Off Hand Proc
1 Crit Multiplier (Strike With No Thought)
5% Crit Chance (Keen Edge)
7 Extra Action Boosts (Alacrity)
30 Melee Power (Opportunity Attack, One with the Blade)
25 Armor Piercing (Shattering Strike, Strike at the Heart)



Tempest
7 To Hit (Whirling Blades)
16.85 Damage (Whirling Blades, Growing Storm, Dual Perfection (6.25 @ 60 STR))
3 Seeker (Critical Mastery)
10 Double Strike (Whirlwind, A Thousand Cuts)
25 Off Hand Double Strike (Dervish)
20 Off Hand Proc (Tempest, Whirlwind)
1 Crit Multiplier (Deflect Arrows)
0% Crit Chance
0 Extra Action Boosts
15 Melee Power (Dervish, A Thousand Cuts)
0 Armor Piercing
2d6 Effects (Storm Dance, Storm Tempest)

If we say Offhand procs are just a fancy kind of double strike Tempest goes to 32.5 double strike




Stat


Kensei


Tempest


Winner




Damage


17.5


16.85


Wash




To Hit


13


7


Kensei




Seeker


3


3


Wash




Double Strike


19


32.5


Tempest




Crit Multiplier


1


1


Wash




Crit Chance


5%


0


Kensei




Extra Action Boosts


7


0


Kensei




Melee Power


30


15


Kensei




Armor Piercing


25


0


Kensei




Base class Favored Enemy and Weapon Specialization feats kind of balance each other out +3 To Hit +4 Damage +8 Melee Power counters +10 FE Damage. But Ranger wins hands down at self healing.

Ranger also wins because it has Stalker as a second tree to pick up more DPS, Fighters next best DPS tree is Harper.

These changes probably put Kensei/Fighter ahead of Paladins when looking at DPS but Paladins have them beat hands down at survival do to much better self healing.

Suggestions

Add some healing amp to one of the fighter trees add it in the core or as a rider on other good enhancements. You don't need barbarian levels here but you need fighters to have enough to make there weak healing options better
Fighters need a second DPS oriented no Weapon and Shield tree or Fighter vanguard needs to do more for non W&S Fighters. Guess you could also update Harper a bit but that has bigger issue.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

- Opportunity Attack seems kind of goofy/kludgy

Agreed. As Sev wrote:

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

So the way I see this is you have 6 tries at 10% chance to go from 10 melee power to 20 melee power that only lasts 6 seconds? On top of that you only have 2 charges of this ability per rest.

Does the initial six seconds restart if you manage to get a second stack?

If you are a lucky enough to proc the 2nd stack on the first second of attack, then you have at most 7 seconds at +20 melee power?

This seems a lot like the old iteration of Master's Blitz and the challenges with getting stacks going combined with the limit of only 2 stacks total benefit.

I'm sure others here will have some ideas how to make this better. Unless I am missing something, it just doesn't look very worthwhile at the moment.

[Grailhawk]

Nothing very original here compared with previous class revamps. It would be nice if these revamps did something to distinguish the classes, rather than homogenize them. That's my opinion anyway.

+1 crit multiplier available at level 6 is a low level for a powerful ability. Reminds me of swashbuckler. Coupled with the stalwart defender tree, a 6 level fighter splash will offer a great deal of both offense and defense. Are you all (devs) sure this is the route you want to take? I realize many have expressed dislike that the +1 crit range/multiplier enhancements have been either tier 5s or level 12/18 cores and how that favors pure classes over multiclass builds, but with a change such as this we could see a 6 fighter splash become the new standard for many melee builds. It is definitely a change in favor of multiclass builds, which we haven't really had much of lately, so maybe it is an appropriate change.

Important part in bold.

This go a long way for any melee multi class build. My first thought when seeing this at level 6 was WOW to low level but thing taking a step back I realized it don'ts really make anything OP now as everyone has a crit multiplier by 20. This just opens up some options for classes that don't and probably should get a crit multiplier (Warpriest for instance) ... Or maybe this just sets the precedent so that we can give those classes a multiplier either way it really don't hurt anything now.

[vyvy3369]

Agreed. As Sev wrote:

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

So the way I see this is you have 6 tries at 10% chance to go from 10 melee power to 20 melee power that only lasts 6 seconds? On top of that you only have 2 charges of this ability per rest.

Does the initial six seconds restart if you manage to get a second stack?

If you are a lucky enough to proc the 2nd stack on the first second of attack, then you have at most 7 seconds at +20 melee power?

This seems a lot like the old iteration of Master's Blitz and the challenges with getting stacks going combined with the limit of only 2 stacks total benefit.

I'm sure others here will have some ideas how to make this better. Unless I am missing something, it just doesn't look very worthwhile at the moment.
Maybe I'm mis-reading it too, but I looked at it more as a Smite that has a blitz-like recharging mechanism. You start off with 2 charges. If you have fewer than 2 charges, every damaging attack has a 10% chance to give you another charge. Gaining charges has an internal cooldown of 1s. Which means that if you're attacking fast enough to constantly regenerate charges, you should basically be hitting this attack every 6s, but not sooner than that or you'll be wasting charges. Sounds like a huge pain.

[Grailhawk]

Agreed. As Sev wrote:

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

So the way I see this is you have 6 tries at 10% chance to go from 10 melee power to 20 melee power that only lasts 6 seconds? On top of that you only have 2 charges of this ability per rest.

Does the initial six seconds restart if you manage to get a second stack?

If you are a lucky enough to proc the 2nd stack on the first second of attack, then you have at most 7 seconds at +20 melee power?

This seems a lot like the old iteration of Master's Blitz and the challenges with getting stacks going combined with the limit of only 2 stacks total benefit.

I'm sure others here will have some ideas how to make this better. Unless I am missing something, it just doesn't look very worthwhile at the moment.

Where does the idea that this stacks with it self come from?



New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an
opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.


I read that as an active ability that is used to keep up a +10 melee power boost nearly 100% of the time.

No one attacks at less then 1 per second so I read this as a once per second you have a 10% chance to gain a charge.

So on average you will recharge at least one ever 10s.

Now I'm not sure if "but no more than once per second" means you only get one try per second or if it means you recharge and then cant recharge again for 1 second.

If only on try per second then on average this is a little bit more then a passive 5 melee power (6 i think).

If its the recharge delay then its worth more and on some builds will probably be essentially 100% up time of 10 melee power as the more attacks you make per second the more chance you have of getting it to recharge every second.

[Saekee]

I would break up part of the 20 melee power/ranged power out of tier 5 and sprinkle it through the cores, even starting at the first, like 2 rp and melee power per core and make the tier 5 only 10 melee power/ranged power. Or something like that. I have not crunched the numbers fully.
this would further make splashing fighters worthy, even one level--not just a feat but more fight power.

[Marshal_Lannes]

+1 Crit multiplier at L6 is far too powerful. When you combine this with the SD stance at L6 you are going to see a bunch of L6 Fighter splashes. Please consider moving the crit effect to L12 or L18. Or better yet, as yourself this - why would I go L20 fighter when I can take L6 Fighter and multi-class?

[Anaximandroz]

I have 2 live of fighter (one fighter 20), but i have a question: does 4 of the 6 cores of defender tree need a shield equipped?
Asking because em both lives i felt compelled to be S&B or be losing a good part of the defender power.
If the answer is no; good. If is yes; Please, for the sake of build diversity, change it.
The sacred defender is so much better (not only because gives defenses and utility -healing and rises -), but because doesn't matter the kind of pally you can use it full. the stalwart forces you on S&B and, virtually, only give more defenses (the CC from core 3 will need heavy investment in vanguard, making this tree a secondary at best).
I was thinking something like:

Overbalance:
Main hand weapon: on vorpal knock (save - like stunning shield). Its on you main weapon only, so 2wf wont be op. Goes off more often, then need a save. Or just make this an special attack with cooldown; giving the tree a reliable cc and bringing it close to the sacred defender.

Stand Fast:
Remove the shield requirement, increase the saves bonus you are giving or the time and add "Passive: +10 or 20 hamp". At this time i think the only front line class without some kind of hamp is the fighter, and is high in the tree, so no easy splash.

Defensive sweep:
Remove shield requirement, add "Passive: +20 hamp", keep the threat bonus and make similar to dance of death, but only 3w and 2 targets per swing.

Last stand
Remove shield, add hamp, and i would think in a little more stacking saves (become under effect of GH maybe), because this feels like a panic button.

[Hobgoblin]

J
- We really, really need a sexy capstone here. Pretty lackluster at this point.

just to say-

Alacrity:
+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats

seems nice to me!

to compare - fb gets you +4 con and a small chance to deal massive damage
oc - 4 con sr hp and more healing amp
rav - 4 hp and pk rage type ability


kotc - 7d6 good aligned, mp, and +4 cha
sad- +2 con+2 cha +10 prrmrr
van- mostly ds and 1w on shields

ranger
not going there - as the power creep is strong with that one

so it seems in line with them right now

[Lonnbeimnech]

+1 Crit multiplier at L6 is far too powerful. When you combine this with the SD stance at L6 you are going to see a bunch of L6 Fighter splashes. Please consider moving the crit effect to L12 or L18. Or better yet, as yourself this - why would I go L20 fighter when I can take L6 Fighter and multi-class?

Should be

Power Surge: You gain +8 Psionic bonus to all attributes for 60 seconds and a +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki

[Xaxx]

The fighter update really needs to put kensai back a bit where it was... make it more what its supposed to be a single weapon eastern (monk) centric blend tree like it kind of was. That or get rid of it.

Quite simply fighter needs a new prestige tree and it should be Weaponmaster.

A general weapon select kind like exists in kensai with decent boosts, or a weapon select that goes to one specific weapon with bigger boosts for the pigeonholing your doing to yourself. It would be achoice between different versions from different versions of dnd of the weaponmaster concept. That's my two cents on this whole dang thing.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

Where does the idea that this stacks with it self come from?



New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

See bold part.

I read this as +10 melee power and if it procs (10% chance) you gain another +10 melee power.

Entirely possible I am reading this wrong.

I guess looking at it some more, it could be considered as an "action boost" type active attack with only 2 boosts that are recharged via the 10% proc chance per attack?

Also, what is the cool down on this attack?

[maddong]

So 14 paladin no trees or 12 ranger with 2 core 12 trees or 6 fighter with 1 tree???

That doesn't seem right.

Put the +1 crit mult at core 12.

Move the 20 mp/rp to 5 at core 6, 15 at core 18.

[ComicRelief]

This is just plain wrong. As someone with 15 fighter past lives you already have the ability to customize your fighter to thf or twf with all the feats you get. I have played many twf fighter lives and they are far from underwelming.

I never stated they were "underwhelming". Extending your feat argument, you already have the ability to customize your fighter to a "specific weapon" wielder with all the feats you get, implying Kensai isn't 'needed'. I am not saying "get rid of kensai." Far from it. I'm simply asserting there are many build options out there NOT covered by the EN lines that could use a little love - the two most common (probably) being TWF and THF.
;)

[ComicRelief]

*snip*

I wanted kensai to be retooled from the ground up, however we have to remind ourselves that we should not have it break existing playstyles. The buffs in kensai are less strict than before, so this will open up a twf or thf to get as equal as an advantage as other builds. And that is kind of the point of fighters anyways. The bard of melee. :D

*snip*

Heh - I tend to think of fighters as the backbone on melee...or at least, they should be.
;)

[Lauf]

Greetings,

We are currently looking at tweaks to Stalwart Defender and some solid Kensai changes.

Sev~

Overall I like the changes in terms of balance, but they strike me as very very similar to what other classes have, without really having anything unique.

I would have liked to see something in the enhancements that would say 'weapon master', like ignoring a noticeable chunk of enemy fortification, instantly retaliating against melee attacks, deflecting arrows... come to think of it, the swashbucker tree is a lot more in line of what I would expect a weapon master to have, at least as far as flavor. maybe have a look at it and borrow a few ideas.

I also think reed in the wind requires a lower cooldown, even if it means reduced dodge values or duration. a 30sec cooldown is a bit much to use in normal rotations, and a 9% dodge on successful attack isn't really an 'oh ****' button.

maybe have an enhancement that reduces cooldowns for tactical feats? or gives a chance to reset them on a crit or something...

at the moment it seems all your focus went into bringing the kensai damage/ survivability up, and little thought was put into making it feel like a kensai.

[Grailhawk]

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

See bold part.

I read this as +10 melee power and if it procs (10% chance) you gain another +10 melee power.

Entirely possible I am reading this wrong.

I guess looking at it some more, it could be considered as an "action boost" type active attack with only 2 boosts that are recharged via the 10% proc chance per attack?

Also, what is the cool down on this attack?

So the first bolded implies you can use this twice and the part you bolded describes how to recharge.

I think your second read where you think of it kind of like an "action boost" (smite is a better example IMO) is more accurate.

[Axeyu]

+1 Crit multiplier at L6 is far too powerful. When you combine this with the SD stance at L6 you are going to see a bunch of L6 Fighter splashes.

That's exactly why +1 crit multiplier at L6 is a very good thing. Multiclassing needs reinvigoration.
If you think pure fighters till won't be competetive then that should be fixed by buffing level 12-20, not by removing one of the few great multiclassing tools we have seen for a long time.

[Ralmeth]

Cool to see the updates! As Kensai is being changed to a generic DPS tree, I would recommend to change the name to something more generic, such as Weapon Master, as the tree really isn't focused on being a Fighter/Monk combo. Just a thought.

[Cetus]

We are looking to improve the Fighter to make it more competitive with other classes. We have already begun the process by allowing Fighters to take feats to add lots of Tactical bonuses and extra passive mitigation. We want to further boost the class with enhancement trees changes.

Hey Sev,

So, in order to make them more competitive with other classes we need to look at 1) Raw DPS numbers 2) To-hit 3) Survivability 4) Unique class-distinguishing factors that make the class fun to play/feel different (i.e. boosts, tactical moves, crowd control, debuffs, insta-kills, AoE attacks, etc.) and 5) The often mentioned but, I feel erroneously mislabeled, "benefit" of the fighter FEATS

Let's look at the DPS upgrade:


Strike with No Thought: You also gain a +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier.

Alacrity:

+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats


Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows. This one is present in tier 2, tier 3, and tier 4

Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

A Good Death: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds. Extra damage now activates if target is below 30% health. Extra damage scales with Melee Power. Requirements are removed.

One with the Blade: You also gain, as part of the passive bonus, +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. Requirements are removed.

Deadly Strike: No longer requires an action boost. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds. Change the on vorpal ability to cause an extra 500 damage which scales with 400% melee power.

Weapon Master: You gain +3 to hit and damage with all weapons.

For a two-handed fighter, where they would stand now: 1 multiplier, 20 static melee power, +9 damage (extra +2 for each of the three improved weapon spec tiers and +3 from tier 5), +6 activation-dependent melee power, and increased utility of A Good Death/Deadly strike attacks.

Where they should stand: In my view, the qualitative damage of a fighter, raw swing-for-swing DPS, should be LOWER than a barbarians. However, it should not be lower than a paladins - given the massive defensive perks that exist for the paladin class. A quick thought-comparison shows that: holy sword effectively negates the +1 competence bonus to multiplier (strike with no thought) and the +1 competence bonus to threat range (keen edge) that the fighter tree offers, zeal cancels 10% of the 15% doublestrike capstone, divine might offsets the straight damage perks and TACTIC DC's (which comes from weapon spec and new tier 5 ability and miscellaneous tactic bonuses) by a large margin - as my paladin had like a 44-50 charisma - which yielded somewhere between 18-20 extra points of strength, which = 9 or 10 modifiers. Divine sacrifice and smites are fantastic ultra-low cooldown abilities that greatly augment paladin DPS - and these, in my opinion, greatly surpass the left-over fighter DPS perks not mentioned yet (good death/deadly strike, miscellaneous double-strike bonuses from cores, weapon focus/spec feats).

So it seems, that these DPS changes, although a good start, are inadequate in making fighters rival the paladin class (which they should), much less the barbarian (which they shouldn't). I don't have enough experience with other competing DPS builds at the moment, so can't comment there.

Suggestion for raw DPS:

What is the underlying philosophy of the Kensei tree? It's to be a master with one chosen weapon group. A lot of the flavor for playing a Kensei can stem from a theme-based approach (similar to the various elemental savants); where a Kensei that is specced, for example, in using heavy blades obtains various abilities that pertain to the usage of that type of weapon (i.e. a bleeding DOT that scales with melee power, maybe a DC-based instakill decapitation attack, a limb-chopper ability infused into the weapon, an alacrity bonus to attack speed as blades slice faster through the air, an improved trip type effect as a limb-severing feature, whirlwind, maybe a boomerang type ranged ability that "throws your sword" at somebody (of course, I don't know tech limitations)). Perhaps a kensei that is specced for hammer use acquires abilities that give a mass stunning effect, maybe proc an earthquake for 3 seconds with a DC based on str modifier (again, not sure about tech - but brainstorming), maybe give a raw damage bonus here vs. alacrity (hammers are slower to swing). Give DR bypassing capabilities - a master of a weapon should not be subject to the same DR problems as everyone else

This approach would really improve the 4th point I made in my opening remark - add flavor, and a sense of something unique/different to the class, while maintaining lower raw DPS than, say, a barbarian. Of course, attaching a 20 melee power buff is a plus, but it does not add anything unique to the class. Everyone is getting melee power...so what? Every time you do this, you are effectively removing the central reason for different classes to exist in the first place, they all start playing the same and by taking the short and easy way out, you are doing a disservice to the game.

The rest of the DPS enhancements:

1. What happened with power surge? It has remained exactly the same. One would think that the core bonuses would get better as a fighter progresses through the ranks, but the +1 multiplier is present at level 6, while a non-stacking, limited use, +8 psionic bonus to str is given at level 12? This discourages pure fighter progression (why go to 12 when I can go to 6, get my multiplier and then leave the fighter class?).

Frankly, the power surge ability should be renamed to "minor jolt" rather than a POWER SURGE. I suggest either upgrading power surge in any of the following ways, ALL of which include the +8 stacking - not psionic bonus to strength, having this stay as a psionic bonus has been a kick between the legs for years now:

a. a 1% chance to regenerate an action boost per hit while under this effect
b. Swapping it with strike with no thought
c. While under the effects of power surge, your to-hit goes up 1 per level of fighter (this idea is here to help mitigate my 2nd point with regard to to-hit).

2. Attack boost: Just remove this. It's competing with HASTE BOOST. This is no contest, never was, never will be. This ability should occupy some lone corner of the tree, or get removed entirely. I've been saying this for more years than I can count, and it still persists for whatever reason. Let it go.

3. One cut: No changes to this ability? This ability, from what I remember, USED AN ACTION BOOST just to get a vorpal ability for 60 seconds? I loathed taking this ability. It is not fun, adds nothing of practical value, acts as an AP sink, and deters from classing deeper into fighter. PLEASE ADDRESS THIS

4. Spiritual bond: Another useless, poorly worded, and often broken (as far as I remember?) core ability that satisfied a lot of the negative remarks just made with regard to one cut. What's the point of this existing? It's playing a game of +1's here and there - doesn't give the class any flavor, doesn't portray any practical value in this newly formed "bond" between the fighter and his or her weapon. I suggest removing this entirely, and instead giving a useful tactical ability to the Kensei, more to-hit (I'll address this later - as to-hit should be the prime forte of a weapon-specialized fighter, in my view), or best of all, a theme based progression to the weapon types chosen in the first core - to build on my previously introduced idea

I'm very glad that the pre-requisite chain and the AWFUL meditation ability have been removed, as they weighed down the class quite a bit. However, these cores that I singled out are doing exactly the same - they are weighing down the appeal of the class and they simply must be addressed for the class to thrive.

Well ****...this is all that time allowed me to contribute for now. I'll continue this post later on, where I really feel the need to address the survivability and feat situation. The feats are a huge issue for me. Giving the fighter class bonus feats, to then just take away a good portion of them with useless/marginally significant requirements has been a fundamental design flaw for...forever now - this is a good time to change this, hopefully...

Thanks for reading.

Cheers

[Kompera_Oberon]

The +1 crit multiplier in a level 6 core is fantastic. It will hopefully open up a lot of multiclasss options.

Except that it is a Competence bonus, which is almost all other forms of crit multiplier bonus and so will not stack. So, not really.

Without any boost to self healing Fighters will still be backseat to Paladins and Barbarians who have that capability in spades.

[Vulkoorex]

So where's the self healing?

:p

[LordTigerDawn]

You are missing thrown weapons in:


Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

They are included in the kensei focus but then are completely forgotten (as usual) in the rest of the tiers.

[maddong]

Since most combat classes now do seem to already have a +1 crit mult, the biggest options that +1 crit mult at level 6 open up seem to be:

Bard 3/Fighter 6/X 11
17-20/x5 light picks for 17AP

Fighter 6/Barb 14
+1 crit mult vs FB capstone/death frenzy

Fighter 6/Monk 14
+1 crit mult shortswords (maybe even more interesting once handwraps count as weapons)

[IronClan]

I think Defender needs a T5 small heal over time tick to compensate for Paladin Tanks being so much better at self healing. OR maybe needs to have some DPS in it. or more mitigation? Go one direction or the other, make Fighter much less self healing and more mitigation or DPS. The thing that Ranger and barbarian failed to accomplish (they have no trade offs) so in Fighter strengthen the tradoffs, so you can nerf Ranger (reduce DPS, eliminate AOE TWF entirely) and Barbarian (Reduce self healing a lot).

I think Vanguard needs more DPS benefit to compensate for this same issue. It can be higher DPS than Paladin as the tradoff for Paladin having much better self healing and saves. Perhaps Kensei Keen Edge could apply to Shield unlike Holy Sword? Also the core Crit multiplier in Kensei could also apply to Shields. Sword and Board is woefully behind Ranger DPS and also Ranger mitigation, if Ranger's mitigation or DPS aren't going to be nerfed, then Both Paladin and Fighter S&B needs significant DPS or Mititgation improvements. Right now Ranger is a Master of all trades. No trade offs needed, IMO this should be addressed with Ranger nerfs (and I am a big time nerf hater but I don't see any alternative).


One with the Blade: You also gain, as part of the passive bonus, +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. Requirements are removed.


Sev~

Change this to 1 melee power per fighter level, and an additional 5 melee power at fighter class level 20, to partially add a trade off for the benefit of Monk and various other Multiclasses here. Otherwise CK with Monk Splash is getting too good. If you structure it like this it's less "low hanging fruit" kinda like how movement speed is put in Rogue and Bard to add some tradeoff for multiclassing.

Otherwise I really like the Kensei changes as they stand, I am glad you didn't go crazy with making Fighter unfriendly for multilcassing by making the 18 core and capstone dumptruck sized bonuses. Because of this I feel my suggestion for making OwtB "per fighter level" of melee power is fair and balanced and not overly punishing of multiclassing, it will help give some trade off to 18 fighter 2 Monk or Rogue, or a 12 Fighter 6 whatever 2 something else, but not so much that people will feel they absolutely have to go 20 fighter.

20 fighter = 25 mp
18/2 = 18mp but gets benefit of 2 splash
12/6/2 = 12mp but gets benefit of 6 whatever 2 splash etc.

Please allow the Core Multiplier to apply to Shields, so Vanguard can recover some of the serious deficit to Paladin vanguard (Paladin is still much better saves and Self healing built in).

Fighters have decent healing opportunities with Cocoon, and Sacred ground heal over time or Bladeforged , heal scrolls etc. please don't cave to the people who want you to make it auto healing like Barbarian.


All of these comments are made ignoring the huge issue with Ranged kiting builds being back to trivializing LE content, and are predicated on Barbarian's self heal being further adjusted and Ranger's mitigation or DPS being adjusted and the TWF AOE eliminated or having some sort of serious trade off added for it's use. If none of that is going to happen then Fighter needs more mitigation and self healing or DPS spiked up to compensate for the deficit of those. Perhaps 2 weapon multipliers instead of 1.

[IronClan]

+1 Crit multiplier at L6 is far too powerful. When you combine this with the SD stance at L6 you are going to see a bunch of L6 Fighter splashes. Please consider moving the crit effect to L12 or L18. Or better yet, as yourself this - why would I go L20 fighter when I can take L6 Fighter and multi-class?

a 6 Fighter doesn't get Crit range from Keen Edge. Fighters have such a deficit in other places (Saves, Heals, Mitigation and even DPS are all way worse than Ranger) that IMO it is just fine at level 6, and putting it at 12, 18 or 20 is just a carbon copy of every other class... very boring.

Please don't make every class have the exact same splits.

Additionally Fighter is a traditional multiclass friendly class, there's nothing wrong with 6 fighter multiclassing, they wont be getting Keen Edge due to the requirements for weapon spec, they wont get power surge, they wont get a lot of feats.

Are there some interesting 6 fighter splits? Yes. That's not a bad thing IMO especially given that Fighter is behind every other buffed melee in healing, mitigation and DPS.

[Chai]

a 6 Fighter doesn't get Crit range from Keen Edge. Fighters have such a deficit in other places (Saves, Heals, Mitigation and even DPS are all way worse than Ranger) that IMO it is just fine at level 6, and putting it at 12, 18 or 20 is just a carbon copy of every other class... very boring.

Please don't make every class have the exact same splits.

Additionally Fighter is a traditional multiclass friendly class, there's nothing wrong with 6 fighter multiclassing, they wont be getting Keen Edge due to the requirements for weapon spec, they wont get power surge, they wont get a lot of feats.

Are there some interesting 6 fighter splits? Yes. That's not a bad thing IMO especially given that Fighter is behind every other buffed melee in healing, mitigation and DPS.

This will certainly make my bards more powerful.

The real question is, do they need to be?

[vyvy3369]

a 6 Fighter doesn't get Crit range from Keen Edge.
A 6 Fighter could now take Keen Edge with the proposed changes for both +1 range and mult. Weapon Specialization requires 4 Fighter. Greater Weapon Focus is the old tier 4 req that caused Keen Edge to basically require 8 Fighter, and that has been removed.

[MonadRebelion]

I think SD needs a bit more dps, threat generation, and hp. Some people are advocating more hamp and self healing. I don't think these are inappropriate weaknesses for a fighter. It is supposed to be more difficult for fighters to heal and make saves than paladins in my view.

The changes being suggested don't really seem to do this. Is there a bigger picture I'm not seeing that will help me make better sense of the changes to SD? Is a larger scale revamp of SD supposed to be coming out?

[nibel]

Fighter is not really my cup of tea in either class preference, or playstyle. However, just to make sure it don't end up on oversight, please, make all active attacks have a ranged option as well, and if the melee attack scales with Melee Power, make the ranged version scales with Ranged Power. When I did my pure fighter crossbowman build a long time ago, I was surprised that even the ranged version of A Good Death scaled with Melee Power. Luckily, I had some granted by Epic Levels and Epic Destiny, but still was much lower than my RP.


Last Stand: The passive portion of the enhancement is improved to be: +2 Constitution, +2 Strength, +10 Physical Resistance Rating, +10 Magical Resistance Rating, and +2 to the DCS of all Tactical Feats.

Please, also make the active portion heal 100% of your HP after it boosted it 100%, or change it to "grant temporary hit points equal to your max HP value". Right now, the HP buff is only relevant if you have a healer attached to you, and most of the time he will panic by seeing the sudden drop on your red bar.


Kensai Core Abilities

Any chance to make One Cut passive, including the +0.5[W] of a Vorpal weapon?


Shattering Strike: Cooldown reduced to 10 seconds, Fortification loss no longer has a saving throw. No longer requires Weapon Mediation.

Do the fortification loss stacks with Improved Sunder?


One with the Blade: You also gain, as part of the passive bonus, +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. Requirements are removed.

Any chance to make it works with Ranged Focus weapon as well? As in, stay centered with a bow/xbow in hand.

[Maelodic]

This will certainly make my bards more powerful.

The real question is, do they need to be?

Handaxes and light picks, basically...

It also looks like the 12 Ranger/6 Fighter/2 Rogue or Monk Monster will be making a comeback. If you wanted to go centered, you could do a dex based khopesh wielder with 16-18 / 4x 19-20 5x and 100% offhand just from heroics, which would be awesome. Or light armored, since you'd need to go through DWS anyway, you can pick up the survivalist goodies and killer for tons of DS.

Really awesome multiclass options.

Still very little reason to go pure as a fighter when you compare. The capstone IS good but the issue fighter has that really, no other class has, is that you really can't be self sufficient as a fighter without splashing or playing bladeforged. There absolutely needs to be a way for fighters to sustain themselves in this game or they'll be stuck in multiclass fodder as they have been for ages.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

For Kensei, given the direction it's going, the "good offense = defense" theory should be applied, to answer the suggestions here about a Fighter option that keeps its health up. I totally disagree with Fighter having a self-healing option, but instead the Class should do this:

Use Tactics to prevent your opponent from causing you damage in the first place.

There should be a very high (highest in game) Tactics boost for Fighter, and perhaps this Kensei tree is the one to get the maxed Tactics tree in game.

2/4/6 Tactics DC boost would not be beyond extreme, although most seeing this initially would disagree with me. But when you consider - if you Trip more, you get damaged less. If you Sunder/Greater Sunder more, you get hit less often as you kill quicker.

Keep Fighters alive through Tactics, not magic or far-fetched clickie ideas.

And I agree with a prior suggestion - lower the cooldown period for Tactics to be used again, and given the logic trail I am on right now, it could be a progressive reduction, perhaps within the Core line, with the top Tactics cooldown boost at the level 20 core (a Tactics reward to stay pure), since you also have an issue with a less than exciting Capstone Core as it's currently designed.

[Maelodic]

Keep Fighters alive through Tactics, not magic or far-fetched clickie ideas.

That sounds all well and good, but they will be much worse off with rednames, mages, groups, archers... the whole lot. The disadvantage they are at through tactics is already fairly profound.

[Aelonwy]

Alacrity:

+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats


Sev~

Does no one have an issue with the +2 to all ability scores capstone?! I mean, hello isn't that one half of the completionist feat given as the capstone in just this one enhancement tree. I get that when they opened up builds to be able to be based on almost any stat that having just one type of bonus (+2 str for instance) doesn't work well for all possible builds but I would rather see a multi selector for those stats than this craziness.

Otherwise I like the changes. Thanks guys for getting these out here.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

That sounds all well and good, but they will be much worse off with rednames, mages, groups, archers... the whole lot. The disadvantage they are at through tactics is already fairly profound.

What if Fighter is given the ability to overcome immunities to Tactics resistance? It would be nice to finally see certain red names Tripped up, Sundered, or Stunned.

[Maelodic]

What if Fighter is given the ability to overcome immunities to Tactics resistance? It would be nice to finally see certain red names Tripped up.

I think that would be a bit broken, honestly. Two fighters in a raid group with high enough DCs and you could keep something perma-stunned.

Though the DC for red names is probably WAY too high for anything to land to begin with.

[Maelodic]

A Good Death: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds. Extra damage now activates if target is below 30% health. Extra damage scales with Melee Power. Requirements are removed.

Deadly Strike: No longer requires an action boost. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds. Change the on vorpal ability to cause an extra 500 damage which scales with 400% melee power.


Just a thought.

With 10k stars active, or even not, a shuriken thrower (assuming these will still have ranged options) could easily hit a massive amount with these abilities. Less of a concern for other ranged characters, but just something to be aware of.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

I think that would be a bit broken, honestly. Two fighters in a raid group with high enough DCs and you could keep something perma-stunned.

Though the DC for red names is probably WAY too high for anything to land to begin with.

How is that process any different than a group with healers whittling away at the boss' health while keeping the group healed up along the way? Fight could last the same amount of time, for that matter.

[Maelodic]

How is that process any different than a group with healers whittling away at the boss' health while keeping the group healed up along the way? Fight could last the same amount of time, for that matter.

Yeah, but you bypass any boss mechanics or damage or the need for healers. It's a lot less fun to beat something that's stunned for 5 minutes than something that fights back.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Yeah, but you bypass any boss mechanics or damage or the need for healers. It's a lot less fun to beat something that's stunned for 5 minutes than something that fights back.

"...Less fun" = assumption or speculation. You're missing the macro logic point being made here - a process exists for characters to defeat the AI monsters in game, and your way and my way are not the only ways, but your way doesn't have to be the only way. I'm sure there are many players who would enjoy a Tactics overkill. But I'm not trying to win an argument of "my way vs your way" -- I'm most importantly trying to show a logic trail here that Fighter should not self-heal, but should deny a monster's ability to cause damage in the first place!

And just to show this in yet more detail - consider your way (what you consider "traditional" perhaps) -- if a healer is removed from the equation, someone in the group dies, or the whole group dies.

The same exact thing can happen in my way -- remove a Fighter, and the Boss regains the ability to thrash the individual and/or group.

So in closing, I recommend the Capstone give +6 DC to Tactics, not just +2 as Severlin stated in the first post. And I think +2 and +4 DCs to Tactics should progressively be raised prior to the capstone in the Core line of the tree.

[count_spicoli]

So in closing, I recommend the Capstone give +6 DC to Tactics, not just +2 as Severlin stated in the first post. And I think +2 and +4 DCs to Tactics should progressively be raised prior to the capstone in the Core line of the tree.

So a pure fighter already gets +25 tactics dc over any other class and you are worried about a few more for the capstone. LOL!!!.

What should be implemented is tactic cooldowns, a new tactic specific to fighter only or something along those lines. You know some creativity. What the devs are giving us is rehashed enhancements.

Problem is this is where the game is right now. Actually investing time to right new enhancements aint gonna happen. Just throw some hogwash out there and let it ride so they can get back to that arkam thing they are working on.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

So a pure fighter already gets +25 tactics dc over any other class and you are worried about a few more for the capstone. LOL!!!.

What should be implemented is tactic cooldowns, a new tactic specific to fighter only or something along those lines. You know some creativity. What the devs are giving us is rehashed enhancements.

Problem is this is where the game is right now. Actually investing time to right new enhancements aint gonna happen. Just throw some hogwash out there and let it ride so they can get back to that arkam thing they are working on.

Count, I'm with you on that cooldown reduction, go back to my first post in this thread, as I suggested that as well. IMO, should be a progressive in the cores to reduce Tactics cooldowns more and more also.

[Nandos]

Can you fix two Fighter bugs:

T4 Vanguard ability Shield Specialization IV - the buff icon does not appear (it still shows Shield Specialization III even if you have IV) I think this bug also affects the same ability in the Paladin Vanguard tree.

T4 Stalwart Defender ability Counterattack - requires level 12


Speaking of Counterattack, this is an odd and narrow ability. It requires a shield, and uses an action boost to activate. For 30 seconds, if you press shift and shield block and something hits you while you are shield blocking then your weapon and shield will gain +1/+2/+3[W] for 3 seconds. This is an old leftover ability from when half the Stalwart Defender tree required shields. Could this ability be tweaked in some way to make it more useful?

Thanks!

[janave]

I like the dps adjustments so far it gets an "alright" from me, however the problem with pure fighters past level 10 remains, that is they still going to die to any encounter with spam casters..due to lackful saves and no way to quickly recover from massive elemental dmg spam. That is post 40 resists, 80Mrr and 30 reflex - i just rolled a new Fighter to see if the gear helped but i was unable to keep up this character with over 650+hps in mid level heroic elite quests, champion fire elemental killed the guy in 3-4seconds... twice, yes, im stubborn.

- Please allow higher level (15-18+) Fighters to reduce Stun, Trip, Sap cool-downs.
- Allow Kensai to reach higher dodge cap in medium/heavy armor as well.
- Should a character who masters tactics be able to save vs trips, stuns, etc? if yes, with a very high bonus +8-10 to save vs these effects would be nice.

Please consider adjusting feats (with suggestions):
- Power Critical: I think this could add +3 seeker, and 3% fort bypass
- Whirlwind Attack: 5W, if possible fix the attack with weapons to hit as many times as the unarmed version.
- (new) Improved WW Attack: A Fighter only copy of WWA for higher levels, possibly now using double strike bonuses for % for further hits.
- Slicing blow: 10s, d4 con damage, bleed scaled up to 30.
- (new) Improved Stunning: Raise the DC, sub 10s cool-down.
- (new) Greater Trip: +DC, -CD, immunity to trip, and non magical knock-downs.

If we gonna die in every magic spam encounter, at least let us die with class. :)

PS: I think the low hanging +1 crit multiplier wont help much to the case of staying 20 in Fighter. Thats one of the bigger things players look for in any dps tree, if we can just stop there, we most often will.

[janave]

Handaxes and light picks, basically...

It also looks like the 12 Ranger/6 Fighter/2 Rogue or Monk Monster will be making a comeback. If you wanted to go centered, you could do a dex based khopesh wielder with 16-18 / 4x 19-20 5x and 100% offhand just from heroics, which would be awesome. Or light armored, since you'd need to go through DWS anyway, you can pick up the survivalist goodies and killer for tons of DS.

Really awesome multiclass options.

Still very little reason to go pure as a fighter when you compare. The capstone IS good but the issue fighter has that really, no other class has, is that you really can't be self sufficient as a fighter without splashing or playing bladeforged. There absolutely needs to be a way for fighters to sustain themselves in this game or they'll be stuck in multiclass fodder as they have been for ages.

Yeah already expecting the how to cheese this development crowd to be excited over the lvl6 -> crit X and the clickies with fury + ranged (if applicable).

Healing Amp action boost might work, get it at lvl 6 with 20pts and add another 20pts at each core, for 20s, could use a shared pool to limit its use. This would enable a capped Fighter to drink 60-80pts cure serious wounds, YAAY :D

[Seikojin]

Heh - I tend to think of fighters as the backbone on melee...or at least, they should be.
;)

I think of bards as the backbone of utility. Very flexible in many ways. I think of fighters in the same way, but for melee combat.

Some additional things that can boost fighter/kensai:
Action boost that provides their to hit added to damage. This would scale and provide a significant clicky burst of dps for fighter.
As I said last year, put abilities that turn the monk aspect into that or delve deeper into samurai modes, allowing medium armor or heavy armor and centering.
Change things into tactical clickies that offer knockdown and stun effects through cleaves or line strikes, or aoes.

I think the power surge should be able to trigger off vorpals as well as expanding crit ranges by +1.

[janave]

I think of bards as the backbone of utility. Very flexible in many ways. I think of fighters in the same way, but for melee combat.

Some additional things that can boost fighter/kensai:
Action boost that provides their to hit added to damage. This would scale and provide a significant clicky burst of dps for fighter.
As I said last year, put abilities that turn the monk aspect into that or delve deeper into samurai modes, allowing medium armor or heavy armor and centering.
Change things into tactical clickies that offer knockdown and stun effects through cleaves or line strikes, or aoes.

I think the power surge should be able to trigger off vorpals as well as expanding crit ranges by +1.

I was thinking One with the Blade + Capstone could enable extended 19-20 Vorpals. Captone locks out multiclassing, and OwtB is just horribly expensive.

I like that samurai path, id like to play one of those. Altho it would be nice to play a lvl20 Fighter that doesnt feel like a burden on the party in the 1st place, without getting 60 past lives and the top 1% of power gear first :).

[Jetrule]

To Clarify Would weapon focus group Archery apply the +1/+4 since bows are 2 handed? And for things like druid weapon focus group which I used on a fighter rogue for staves, all the one handed weapons would be +1/+2 and q.staves +1/+4? Also would all thrown be +1/+2? Even the bad ones like everything except shuriken? If we can get throwing daggers to get +1/+4 along with the +1 crit multiplier I think I might be able to make a letter thrower. :D

[SirValentine]

Alacrity:

+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats



+2 to all abilities? Why? That seems excessive, when other capstones are just +2 to two specific abilities or +4 to single specific ability. Are you to going to go back and raise all the other capstones to this level? What's logical, thematic, or balanced about Kensei in particular getting, say, extra Int or Cha?

[Axeyu]

+2 to all abilities? Why? That seems excessive, when other capstones are just +2 to two specific abilities or +4 to single specific ability. Are you to going to go back and raise all the other capstones to this level? What's logical, thematic, or balanced about Kensei in particular getting, say, extra Int or Cha?

Excessive in what way exactly? Do you think it makes the capstone too powerful?

You can use almost any stat for hit and damage these days, so it seems perfectly reasonable that the capstone gives +all stats instead of just one or two.

[dunklezhan]

+2 to all abilities? Why? That seems excessive, when other capstones are just +2 to two specific abilities or +4 to single specific ability. Are you to going to go back and raise all the other capstones to this level? What's logical, thematic, or balanced about Kensei in particular getting, say, extra Int or Cha?

You forgot to include 'necessary'.

I don't have an objection to fighters getting +2 to all stats - I just don't understand what it gives them.

I guess it provides synergy with whatever you've picked from some other tree to do damage with if multiclassing. Including Wis still makes no sense given there's no wis to damage option anywhere still (not that I'm advocating one, I'd always have preferred if Str remained the only melee damage option, and I say that as someone who favours dex builds. Choices.).

I think I'd rather see a selector which allows you to pick a +4 to one stat of your choice which you'll notice, rather than a blanket +2 to all stats which you probably won't.

[Chacka_DDO]

My issue with this change is: to take the +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range away and give +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier while a Paladin gets +1 on both and this even without spending a single AP to get this.

Fighters must be compared with paladins, and a paladin is therefore still ahead on all weapons before a fighter and still have in addition the paladin specific advantages.

If i got it right, a Fighter should be more skilled on all weapons than other classes usually are and the idea of Kensei is to be noticeable better on one weapon type in addition.

So i would expect at last to have a fighter get +1 on all weapons on multiplier and Threat Range. Then a fighter just only starts to get closer to a Paladin (my opinion is a Paladin should be better on the weapon for there Deity only and on this weapon maybe then better as a Kensei can be).

Tactical feats:
To make it short, just giving more dc is not enough.
At last the Stunning Blow feat should be changed to 6 seconds cool down.

I see the Kensai as some kind of monk without the monk magic and therefore I would like to see things that make it feels like this.

so a few ideas
Weapon Master gives something special like gracing blows on dwarven axes even when you wield two of them or if you use a great club you get W[(1+1)d10] or if you use a bow your Many Shot lasts 5 seconds longer.
And as cap stone when your a lvl 20 Kensei fighter you finish your monk training by being in some ways better as a monk but still don't have the Ki magic of the monk class. So I would suggest evasion and centered while in light armor and maybe a Ki bar even if you have no use for it yet, beside you use the Grandmaster of Flower epic destiny.
And to go even further: wisdom for damage and maybe to hit at cap stone (while I am not sure this should be for monks) foremost to make a Kensai with strong will save possible. And then you have the decision between high will save and high tactical dc like a monk in the other way, but GmoF ED might balance it then and is your way in epic levels as fighter.

For monks, I wish the Ki magic would be far more useful to set accents for this class, to give everyone just more weapon dps makes DDO not better. (what I call my main character is by the way a pure Shintao monk).

[Saekee]

I'd also like to see some signature ability around which one builds gear etc. So let's take Deadly Strike. Make this always generate a vorpal hit that scales everything 400% with melee power INSTEAD of crit with more dmg from vorpal(crit woukd happen anyway). (Also eliminate bonus damage on vorpal as is; just make it always vorpal). Adjust cooldown so not OP but good.

This way, one could build gearing to
mount effects on vorpal hits to boost this ability, e.g. level drain augments, stormreaver pendant, Reign, sovereign vorpal weapons, etc etc. This would make for fun build ideas instead of the usually crit crit crit. I think something like this could be added to the level 12 core in which case I would eliminate scaling.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Not to derail a Kensai specific thread, but there are those of us who play fighters yet don't like playing the "clickie cooldown" game, who don't particularly care for boosts or tactics. There's still no specific ENs for TWF or THF. The previous changes to SD were good in that it removed a lot of shield-specific ENs, but there could be (and should be IMO) more for the TWF and THF fighters. I've always asserted that fighters are (arguably) the most flexible class, and yet we seem pigeon-holed by the ENs into being "specialists" (kensai) focusing on specific classes of weapons or "sword & board" - no TWF, no THF, and no "bowmen" (though, yes, the case can be made that if you're going to focus on using a bow, be a ranger, but that is besides the point). I'm not suggesting there be a fighter tempest or arcane archer EN lines, per se, but there are so many possible builds with fighter (DEX based, STR based, INT based, THW, TWF, SWF, etc.) the current ENs just feel limiting.

But no one listens to Zathras...
;)

I personally dislike clickies.

Main reason is they are too short and monsters die too fast (in a group anyway) for them to be useful to me at all.

I also get extremely rare use of any type of tactic special attacks....like trips, or just about anything that doesn't effect all of my attacks and requires an extra button to push.

If it has a save it is even worse.

Everything just dies too quickly.
Or if it doesn't, it means it has super saves or is flat out immune.

[btolson]

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

Sev~

Not a fan of this. Already have enough to click on (esp as a fighter), don't need something else to click so frequently. Would prefer something like "every time you use a tactical ability, your melee power is boosted...."


Also, what about reducing the cost of Tactical Mastery in t2? All other enhancement sources of tactical bonuses are 1/1/1, not 2/2/2.


Overall it's tough to say if this will be enough for non-splashed fighters. Not having a secondary tree to support THF and TWF is still a big deal. Maybe more can be done in Stalwart somewhere, which already has some generic damage boosts. Perhaps you can try to squeeze in the notion of Parry and Riposte in Stalwart, granting reprisal/offensive boosts to THF/TWF only in t2 & t3, since there is still some empty space in that tree.

[Axeyu]

The poor survivability compared to other classes is still a problem. I think a good solution would be to add an AoE trip and/or short cooldown stun to tier 4 or 5.


They could really use some healing amp in the cores to make them less of a pain to heal compared to barbarians.

[btolson]

Oh, and as someone else mentioned, you need to make a change to One Cut (core5). This is severely restricted in terms of weapon types it works with, and it shares a cooldown with all your other action boosts. Requiring 18 levels for an ability that may not even function with the weapon types you've chosen to specialize in, and which you may not be able to use anyway due to preferring other action boosts, is awful.

[btolson]

Oh, and... FIX WHIRLWIND ATTACK. Fighters have the feats to take it, but unless you're unarmed it's terrible.

[Jetrule]

You forgot to include 'necessary'.

I don't have an objection to fighters getting +2 to all stats - I just don't understand what it gives them.

I guess it provides synergy with whatever you've picked from some other tree to do damage with if multiclassing. Including Wis still makes no sense given there's no wis to damage option anywhere still (not that I'm advocating one, I'd always have preferred if Str remained the only melee damage option, and I say that as someone who favours dex builds. Choices.).

I think I'd rather see a selector which allows you to pick a +4 to one stat of your choice which you'll notice, rather than a blanket +2 to all stats which you probably won't.

You dont have any other classes with multi classing if you get the capstone enhancement. The +2 to all stats helps pdk fighters who use charisma or Racial trees that use dex or harper fighters. In general it wont be super useful, but versatile. There are a couple wis to hit and damage weapons available and it could aid racial AA fighters.

[Vulkoorex]

Under Stalwart Defender.

Field Medic: Dress war wounds. Action boosts that gives Cure Light Wound effects that scales with melee power (or whatever). Shouldn't be OP and it's better than nothing.

[cru121]

If you guys manage to implement the leaked T4 Drunken Master (You gain +25/50/75% more effect from healing potions), I'd like to propose that Dwarves and Warforged receive few additional % (30/60/90?).

[Tilomere]

I'd rather have a Dance of Death over the entire Kensai tree.

2-300% bonus damage with 2/3 uptime averages 160-200% more damage.

No don't limit it to the Kensai tree. I'd rather have DoD over all three fully filled fighter trees combined.

[Aelonwy]

+2 to all abilities? Why? That seems excessive, when other capstones are just +2 to two specific abilities or +4 to single specific ability. Are you to going to go back and raise all the other capstones to this level? What's logical, thematic, or balanced about Kensei in particular getting, say, extra Int or Cha?

I agree. As I said before +2 to all abilities is like one half of the completionist feat, given as the capstone to one enhancement tree of all the enhancement trees. +2 to all abilities is also essentially +1 to all skills and saves.


Excessive in what way exactly? Do you think it makes the capstone too powerful?

You can use almost any stat for hit and damage these days, so it seems perfectly reasonable that the capstone gives +all stats instead of just one or two.

Well I think its excessive and unbalanced against most other capstones, even the capstones of the other two fighter trees. What would seem more reasonable to me is a multiselector for +4 to a single stat in the capstone that would apply to any player's choice of ability score to hit/damage.


You forgot to include 'necessary'.

I don't have an objection to fighters getting +2 to all stats - I just don't understand what it gives them.

I guess it provides synergy with whatever you've picked from some other tree to do damage with if multiclassing. Including Wis still makes no sense given there's no wis to damage option anywhere still (not that I'm advocating one, I'd always have preferred if Str remained the only melee damage option, and I say that as someone who favours dex builds. Choices.).

I think I'd rather see a selector which allows you to pick a +4 to one stat of your choice which you'll notice, rather than a blanket +2 to all stats which you probably won't.

Can't multiclass and get capstone, perhaps you were thinking of racial trees? But I agree a multi-selector for a +4 to stat of your choice would be better and certainly more balanced IMHO.

[Aelonwy]

The poor survivability compared to other classes is still a problem. I think a good solution would be to add an AoE trip and/or short cooldown stun to tier 4 or 5.


TA has an AOE trip(Sweeping Strikes) but things don't stay down very long (3 seconds). Perhaps an AOE stun would be better?

[Saekee]

Under Stalwart Defender.

Field Medic: Dress war wounds. Action boosts that gives Cure Light Wound effects that scales with melee power (or whatever). Shouldn't be OP and it's better than nothing.

yes please put healing related things in Stalwart defender, maybe as one of the 3 defensive stances. I would prefer that it is not healing per se but Hamp and/or temp hp that proc like with EK's tier5 shield (but have it scale).

[Lonnbeimnech]

I agree. As I said before +2 to all abilities is like one half of the completionist feat, given as the capstone to one enhancement tree of all the enhancement trees. +2 to all abilities is also essentially +1 to all skills and saves.



Well I think its excessive and unbalanced against most other capstones, even the capstones of the other two fighter trees. What would seem more reasonable to me is a multiselector for +4 to a single stat in the capstone that would apply to any player's choice of ability score to hit/damage.



Can't multiclass and get capstone, perhaps you were thinking of racial trees? But I agree a multi-selector for a +4 to stat of your choice would be better and certainly more balanced IMHO.

Compared to the old caps where you got +2 to a stat and that's about it, it's very strong. But compared to the caps from upgraded classes, its really not strong.

The vanguard cap of stunning every time you do a shield bash is really really strong... unless that's been fixed.
Tempest gets 25% off hand double strike and 10 melee power and +4 dex.
Frenzied berzerker gets 10 melee power +4 con and 5% chance to do 400 bludgeon damage per hit
Ravager gets an aoe phantasmal killer 4 con, 150 hp and +40 heal amp
KoTC gets 4 cha 10 melee power and 7d6 light damage per hit
Swashbuckler gets evasion +2 dex and cha


If anything they should throw in 10 melee power just to keep in line with everyone else.

[Saekee]

Compared to the old caps where you got +2 to a stat and that's about it, it's very strong. But compared to the caps from upgraded classes, its really not strong.

The vanguard cap of stunning every time you do a shield bash is really really strong... unless that's been fixed.
Tempest gets 25% off hand double strike and 10 melee power and +4 dex.
Frenzied berzerker gets 10 melee power +4 con and 5% chance to do 400 bludgeon damage per hit
Ravager gets an aoe phantasmal killer 4 con, 150 hp and +40 heal amp
KoTC gets 4 cha 10 melee power and 7d6 light damage per hit
Swashbuckler gets evasion +2 dex and cha


If anything they should throw in 10 melee power just to keep in line with everyone else.

I am not sure lore-wise why a fighter will get +2 to wisdom & charisma. I 'get' Dex, CON & Str as well as INT for builds maximizing KtA and feats like Dire Charge but wisdom & charisma make little sense.
Well, PDK. That leaves just wisdom as an oddity. nvm answered my own query, wis was always in tree anyway

edit: I would then make the two stat AP options to be selectable from any stat, not just Str Dex & Wis

[Nuclear_Elvis]

...And as cap stone when your a lvl 20 Kensei fighter you finish your monk training by being in some ways better as a monk but still don't have the Ki magic of the monk class. So I would suggest evasion and centered while in light armor and maybe a Ki bar even if you have no use for it yet, beside you use the Grandmaster of Flower epic destiny...

Disagree with this small portion but it gives an opportunity to make a point. A Fighter should be as good or better than every other Class when it comes to them being proficient and capable when wearing their Armor, and especially Heavy Armor. A Fighter should be capable of doing things in Heavy Armor that no other Class can.

So another macro suggestion here:

Put a significant Armor related change and/or boost into the Level 20 capstone at minimum, or scale up a progressive boost that culminates at the capstone but forces time/levels to be spent in the Fighter class to achieve it.

[btolson]

Oh, and... FIX WHIRLWIND ATTACK. Fighters have the feats to take it, but unless you're unarmed it's terrible.

An addendum to this... after fixing whirlwind, perhaps modify the proposed Strike at the Heart into:

Tactical Supremacy: Your weapon attacks have the Improved Destruction effect. Additionally, your cleaves have a chance equal to your wisdom score to apply a sunder effect to enemies (or improved sunder if you possess that feat). Your whirlwind attack has a chance equal to your wisdom score to apply a knockdown effect (or improved knockdown if you possess that feat), and on vorpals will apply a stun effect if you possess the stunning blow feat.

[Jaenar]

Fighter's Resolve - (Tier 4 Enhancement)(4 AP)

Fighter's Resolve Tier 1: Grants a 25% increase to the effectiveness of your healing potions. (1 AP, Fighter Level 3)

Fighter's Resolve Tier 2: Grants an additional 10% increase to the effectiveness of your healing potions,
bringing the total increase to 35%. (1 AP, Fighter Level 6)

Fighter's Resolve Tier 3: Grants an additional 10% increase to the effectiveness of your healing potions,
bringing the total increase to 45%. (1 AP, Fighter Level 9)

Fighter's Resolve Tier 4: Grants an additional 10% increase to the effectiveness of your healing potions,
bringing the total increase to 55%. Healing from potions scale with Melee Power. (1 AP, Fighter Level 12)

[Cetus]

I agree that a +2 to all stats is a rather pointless addition. It is another "band-aid" change that squashes out the differences between melee classes - nothing unique.

I would have much preferred to see the 15% doublestrike/boosts/tactics present in the capstone to instead get spread out throughout the cores of the trees, and make the capstone something unique. Why can't it be something like a selector depending on your chosen weapon group specialization - here's an example for, say, heavy blades:

Fighter Capstone:

Master of blades:

While wielding your signature weapon, you gain a 1% chance to instantly kill your target with every successful attack (Fortitude save negates: DC 20 + Character level + str modifier +/- any tactic modifiers).

Additionally, your blade expertise grants you 1.5 to your to-hit per Str modifier (instead of 1 - so a PURE fighter with, say, an 82 str would have an additional 18 to-hit).

Your improved-trip now severs your opponents limbs, allowing this attack to now render targets helpless.

[BigErkyKid]

make the capstone something unique.

Time and again we have seen how by the time stuff gets released here no major ability gets added. So no, coding something very special is simply off the table. I think suggestions have to go towards updating already coded abilities.

Personally, I see this as an insufficient fix for fighters, basically adding some crits and MP.

Quite frankly what fighter needs is a serious revamp of the feat list. That's what's unique about fighters: feats. As long as feats remain mostly useless (or currently "must haves" like PRR and DCs).

But I am not holding my breath nor downloading the game again because I don't see a real effort to update classes in a way way that doesn't dilute them.

[Axeyu]

I agree that a +2 to all stats is a rather pointless addition. It is another "band-aid" change that squashes out the differences between melee classes - nothing unique.

I would have much preferred to see the 15% doublestrike/boosts/tactics present in the capstone to instead get spread out throughout the cores of the trees, and make the capstone something unique. Why can't it be something like a selector depending on your chosen weapon group specialization - here's an example for, say, heavy blades:

Fighter Capstone:

Master of blades:

While wielding your signature weapon, you gain a 1% chance to instantly kill your target with every successful attack (Fortitude save negates: DC 20 + Character level + str modifier +/- any tactic modifiers).

Additionally, your blade expertise grants you 1.5 to your to-hit per Str modifier (instead of 1 - so a PURE fighter with, say, an 82 str would have an additional 18 to-hit).

Your improved-trip now severs your opponents limbs, allowing this attack to now render targets helpless.



"Class defining" features should definitely not be in the capstone. That screwes over every multiclass. Tier 5 is a much better place for them, and is alos where they are designed to be.

[Silverleafeon]

You have hit upon the main blah weakness of SD which is lackluster upper tier core abilities, but decreasing the cooldown of the capstone and granting a few more action boost #s, you greatly increase is attraction without granting unlimited power (of course there is using a thunderforged tier III to charge up action boosts, but it is a min level 28 weapon in a level cap 30 world, which comes with an increasing price as legendary content arrives).


Changes in red (yours in green):


Stand Fast:Passive: +1 stacking to # of action boosts. Shield Action Boost: You gain a +20 bonus to saves vs. Fear, +4 bonus on all saves and a +20 bonus to Balance for 20 seconds. This ability can be used while feared or knocked down to end those effects. (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 20 Requires: Fighter Level 12, Overbalance


Defensive Sweep: Passive: +1 stacking to # of action boosts.
Shield Action Boost: You generate +50% threat and your basic attacks strike two targets per swing instead of one for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 Requires: Fighter Level 18, Stand Fast


Last Stand: Passive: +2 Constitution, +2 Strength, +10 Physical Resistance Rating, +10 Magical Resistance Rating, and +2 to the DCS of all Tactical Feats. Passive: +1 stacking to # of action boosts.
. Shield Action Boost: Your gain +100% Maximum hit points, +50 Physical Resistance Rating, and On Attacked: You are healed for 1d10 positive energy healing. This Action Boost does not share a cooldown with other Action Boost abilities, and can be used while helpless. (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)


AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 40 Requires: Fighter Level 20, Defensive Sweep




Rational behind changes: the defensive pally tree is designed to coexist with UY ED and the defensive fighter tree is designed to coexist with LD ED, this strengthens the bonds therein, and also encourages players to dip into this tree while focusing on other trees/classes.






Regarding Vanguard, its a good tree, fixing bugs inside it is probably enough.




Regarding Kensei, you are addressing much of my concerns, thanking you for listening, I will let the math experts guide you from here onward. Kensei as is, very disappointing including poor capstone.


However I would spread the +1 action boosts like I did with SD, placing 1 inside each of the upper tiers, avoiding bug issues and sprinkling them inside both trees, for a possible total of +5 for cherry picking. That allows even more capstone love if you please.



Overall, first look along with pause to think thru, I like the changes and would be ok if they went live as is.

[Cetus]

Time and again we have seen how by the time stuff gets released here no major ability gets added. So no, coding something very special is simply off the table. I think suggestions have to go towards updating already coded abilities.

I disagree. Simply dismissing an entire repertoire of suggestions useless is a pretty defeatist attitude - essentially guaranteeing a crappy product. These changes haven't reached Lamannia yet, so I don't have reason to believe that things are "off the table", as you put it..


Personally, I see this as an insufficient fix for fighters, basically adding some crits and MP.

Agreed.


Quite frankly what fighter needs is a serious revamp of the feat list. That's what's unique about fighters: feats. As long as feats remain mostly useless (or currently "must haves" like PRR and DCs).

Very much agreed. However, this is a multi-pronged issue and providing enhancement change suggestions does not preclude possible changes to feats. Yes, feat diversity is a unique feature to fighters, and needs to absolutely be addressed. However, the enhancement trees need distinguishing attributes as well, much like racial trees and destiny trees need distinguishing attributes in order to support a diverse build system. Without special abilities, this can't be accomplished - as everything will look, feel, and play the same.


But I am not holding my breath nor downloading the game again because I don't see a real effort to update classes in a way way that doesn't dilute them.

Well, I agree, I also view this series of changes as "diluting" the class. So you rendering a slew of suggestions "off the table" seems to be a contradictory stance. If anything, you *want* out-of-the-box thinking here to help diversify things for a change. It's up to the devs to decide whether things are "off the table" or not, not us.


"Class defining" features should definitely not be in the capstone. That screwes over every multiclass. Tier 5 is a much better place for them, and is alos where they are designed to be.

Should *definitely* not be in the capstone? That's a very absolutist stance on a class that hasn't functioned on its own terms for several years at minimum now.

With that position, it almost sounds like you have less of an interest in building up the integrity of the fighter as an independently competitve class, and more of an interest in building up the power of a fighter splash for your multiclass builds.

I am not interested in creating low-hanging fruit within the Kensei tree. The class needs to function on its own terms, instead of being picked apart by multiclass builds. The class already offers haste boost, feats, heavy armor proficiency, and now this ML:6 multiplier as low hanging perks. The class needs pure defining features to make a pure fighter a competitive asset in a group.

[Captain_Wizbang]

:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

"Thanks for the opportunity"

:rolleyes:

[lugoman]

I think SD needs a bit more dps, threat generation, and hp. Some people are advocating more hamp and self healing. I don't think these are inappropriate weaknesses for a fighter. It is supposed to be more difficult for fighters to heal and make saves than paladins in my view.

The changes being suggested don't really seem to do this. Is there a bigger picture I'm not seeing that will help me make better sense of the changes to SD? Is a larger scale revamp of SD supposed to be coming out?


Yes, more dps please. Survivability is fine but some dps would be nice.

[Axeyu]

Should *definitely* not be in the capstone? That's a very absolutist stance on a class that hasn't functioned on its own terms for several years at minimum now.

With that position, it almost sounds like you have less of an interest in building up the integrity of the fighter as an independently competitve class, and more of an interest in building up the power of a fighter splash for your multiclass builds.

I am not interested in creating low-hanging fruit within the Kensei tree. The class needs to function on its own terms, instead of being picked apart by multiclass builds. The class already offers haste boost, feats, heavy armor proficiency, and now this ML:6 multiplier as low hanging perks. The class needs pure defining features to make a pure fighter a competitive asset in a group.

No, the class does not need "pure defining features". That kills off basically every multiclass build based on the class.
The defining features that you (and I) have been asking for should be put in tier 5 at the same time as the high level cores and overall class bonuses are made sure to be strong enough to make pure builds competitive.

See the FB tree on how not to do it and the tempest tree how to do it right.

[Lauf]

What is the underlying philosophy of the Kensei tree? It's to be a master with one chosen weapon group. A lot of the flavor for playing a Kensei can stem from a theme-based approach (similar to the various elemental savants); where a Kensei that is specced, for example, in using heavy blades obtains various abilities that pertain to the usage of that type of weapon (i.e. a bleeding DOT that scales with melee power, maybe a DC-based instakill decapitation attack, a limb-chopper ability infused into the weapon, an alacrity bonus to attack speed as blades slice faster through the air, an improved trip type effect as a limb-severing feature, whirlwind, maybe a boomerang type ranged ability that "throws your sword" at somebody (of course, I don't know tech limitations)). Perhaps a kensei that is specced for hammer use acquires abilities that give a mass stunning effect, maybe proc an earthquake for 3 seconds with a DC based on str modifier (again, not sure about tech - but brainstorming), maybe give a raw damage bonus here vs. alacrity (hammers are slower to swing). Give DR bypassing capabilities - a master of a weapon should not be subject to the same DR problems as everyone else

This approach would really improve the 4th point I made in my opening remark - add flavor, and a sense of something unique/different to the class, while maintaining lower raw DPS than, say, a barbarian. Of course, attaching a 20 melee power buff is a plus, but it does not add anything unique to the class. Everyone is getting melee power...so what? Every time you do this, you are effectively removing the central reason for different classes to exist in the first place, they all start playing the same and by taking the short and easy way out, you are doing a disservice to the game.

I really like this idea of giving the kensai tree different perks depending on which weapon sepcialization you wish to go down. makes the fighter class more interesting and IMO more fun.

[BigErkyKid]

These changes haven't reached Lamannia yet, so I don't have reason to believe that things are "off the table", as you put it..

I sincerely hope you are right.

[QUOTE=Cetus;5813026]Very much agreed. However, this is a multi-pronged issue and providing enhancement change suggestions does not preclude possible changes to feats. Yes, feat diversity is a unique feature to fighters, and needs to absolutely be addressed. However, the enhancement trees need distinguishing attributes as well, much like racial trees and destiny trees need distinguishing attributes in order to support a diverse build system. Without special abilities, this can't be accomplished - as everything will look, feel, and play the same.

IMO this can be achieved together by making the PrE have synergies with the feats. Reducing timers, adding extra effects and what not. If the tree on its own becomes too good, then the feats won't be altered (not to create an imbalance). But truth is that the tree has close to 0 flavor as it is.

The problem that I see now is that PrEs have been updated but class and the rest of the game "cores" not so much. Same happened with destinies. At the same time, most of what truly distinguishes classes was in fact coded in to the "cores" and base-game innate abilities. The PrEs / destinies have done a bad job at maintaining that uniqueness and that's why we come here and say: "ZZZzzZZZ MP and crit multipliers, boring!". I would have gone back to the cores and kept the PrEs secondary, but I guess that ship sailed loooong ago.


Well, I agree, I also view this series of changes as "diluting" the class. So you rendering a slew of suggestions "off the table" seems to be a contradictory stance. If anything, you *want* out-of-the-box thinking here to help diversify things for a change. It's up to the devs to decide whether things are "off the table" or not, not us.

Yes, I agree with you. I just commenting because I know it can get frustrating to invest in detailed feedback that will get ignored in favor of MP and +1 crits. If you have a thick skin, by all means.

[Cetus]

No, the class does not need "pure defining features". That kills off basically every multiclass build based on the class


The defining features that you (and I) have been asking for should be put in tier 5 at the same time as the high level cores and overall class bonuses are made sure to be strong enough to make pure builds competitive.

See the FB tree on how not to do it and the tempest tree how to do it right.

Sorry, but I don't quite understand what you wrote here. Isn't the presence of low-hanging abilities (such as the ones I mentioned in a previous post) enough incentive to multiclass several fighter levels?

The existence of unique abilities further down the road, as you class deeper into fighter and eventually acquire the capstone, does not impinge on the perks of a 2, 4, or 6 level fighter splash. It is precisely the absence of unique pure or near-pure abilities that makes multiclassing the only context in which you'll find someone playing a fighter. This has precisely been the fighter's condition for the past several years now - even before I developed my centered kensei build thread - which was a long time ago now. In fact, the centered kensei itself (despite how well the build functioned) existed precisely for the reason that pure fighters were no longer competitive.

So, if you can please provide some specifics as to what you mean, maybe I'd better understand where you're coming from.

[XodousRoC]

Sorry, but I don't quite understand what you wrote here. Isn't the presence of low-hanging abilities (such as the ones I mentioned in a previous post) enough incentive to multiclass several fighter levels?

The existence of unique abilities further down the road, as you class deeper into fighter and eventually acquire the capstone, does not impinge on the perks of a 2, 4, or 6 level fighter splash. It is precisely the absence of unique pure or near-pure abilities that makes multiclassing the only context in which you'll find someone playing a fighter. This has precisely been the fighter's condition for the past several years now - even before I developed my centered kensei build thread - which was a long time ago now. In fact, the centered kensei itself (despite how well the build functioned) existed precisely for the reason that pure fighters were no longer competitive.

So, if you can please provide some specifics as to what you mean, maybe I'd better understand where you're coming from.

I have to agree with Cetus here. 2 Fighter still nets feats + haste boost. 3 Fighter still nets Defender stance for 25 prr/mrr. 4 Fighter yet more feat choices. 6 fighter will now offer a +1 crit multi. There's more than enough incentive to splash (even heavily) in fighter already. What Kensai lacks is a compelling, flavorful reason to go 12, 18, or 20. Building in a stronger core 18 or 20 that incentivizes going pure in no way undermines Fighter's supremacy as a splash class.

[count_spicoli]

I agree that a +2 to all stats is a rather pointless addition. It is another "band-aid" change that squashes out the differences between melee classes - nothing unique.

I would have much preferred to see the 15% doublestrike/boosts/tactics present in the capstone to instead get spread out throughout the cores of the trees, and make the capstone something unique. Why can't it be something like a selector depending on your chosen weapon group specialization - here's an example for, say, heavy blades:

Fighter Capstone:

Master of blades:

While wielding your signature weapon, you gain a 1% chance to instantly kill your target with every successful attack (Fortitude save negates: DC 20 + Character level + str modifier +/- any tactic modifiers).

Additionally, your blade expertise grants you 1.5 to your to-hit per Str modifier (instead of 1 - so a PURE fighter with, say, an 82 str would have an additional 18 to-hit).

Your improved-trip now severs your opponents limbs, allowing this attack to now render targets helpless.



Actually these are pretty good.

AND PUT IN A TACTICS COOLDOWN REDUCER!!!!! Everyone wants this and it makes total sense.

[jakeelala]

I assume all of the ranged abilities being omitted is just an oversight?

You include crossbows specifically but no ranged damage and nothing mentioning bows.

What gives? Throwing weapons?

[acdcrocks]

I agree that a +2 to all stats is a rather pointless addition. It is another "band-aid" change that squashes out the differences between melee classes - nothing unique.

I would have much preferred to see the 15% doublestrike/boosts/tactics present in the capstone to instead get spread out throughout the cores of the trees, and make the capstone something unique. Why can't it be something like a selector depending on your chosen weapon group specialization - here's an example for, say, heavy blades:

Fighter Capstone:

Master of blades:

While wielding your signature weapon, you gain a 1% chance to instantly kill your target with every successful attack (Fortitude save negates: DC 20 + Character level + str modifier +/- any tactic modifiers).

Additionally, your blade expertise grants you 1.5 to your to-hit per Str modifier (instead of 1 - so a PURE fighter with, say, an 82 str would have an additional 18 to-hit).

Your improved-trip now severs your opponents limbs, allowing this attack to now render targets helpless.



I almost completely agree with dis capstone, imo, but please either increase the chance to instakill a non boss target to 3% or forgo the DC

[Cetus]

Actually these are pretty good.

AND PUT IN A TACTICS COOLDOWN REDUCER!!!!! Everyone wants this and it makes total sense.

Yes, this is nearly a no-brainer given how insultingly long the stunning blow cooldown is. I'd even make a case for giving fighters another stunning-like effect within the Kensei tree itself, as fighters simply must have better tactical control of mobs than the other melee classes; which they currently do not.

[Axeyu]

Sorry, but I don't quite understand what you wrote here. Isn't the presence of low-hanging abilities (such as the ones I mentioned in a previous post) enough incentive to multiclass several fighter levels?

The existence of unique abilities further down the road, as you class deeper into fighter and eventually acquire the capstone, does not impinge on the perks of a 2, 4, or 6 level fighter splash. It is precisely the absence of unique pure or near-pure abilities that makes multiclassing the only context in which you'll find someone playing a fighter. This has precisely been the fighter's condition for the past several years now - even before I developed my centered kensei build thread - which was a long time ago now. In fact, the centered kensei itself (despite how well the build functioned) existed precisely for the reason that pure fighters were no longer competitive.

So, if you can please provide some specifics as to what you mean, maybe I'd better understand where you're coming from.

With "multiclass build based on the class" I mean a multiclassed build that has fighter as it's main class and not just as a splash.
Capstones does not need unique build defining features to give players incentive to go pure. They just need to be powerful.

To see why your suggestion is bad just imagine if they moved Dance of Death to the tempest capstone. The defining feature of tempest rangers would be reserved for only pure builds, completely killing off any multiclass potential that still remains.

[maddong]

How about making the capstone turn your stunning blow/trip/sunder into no save abilities (they still have cooldowns, right?)?

[Chacka_DDO]

Spiritual Bond: When you have a weapon equipped in your main hand that is part of your Focus, it gains On Vorpal: If this weapon has fewer stacks of Battle Meditation than the number of Kensei Core Abilities you possess, it gains one stack of Battle Meditation: This weapon gains a +1 Insight bonus to Enhancement bonus for 20 seconds. This stacks up to 10 times. On timer expiration, 1 stack of Meditative Focus is removed at a time.

First of all i think this is not removed, just the possibility to furthermore increase the Enhancement bonus from +6 to +10 at the end?

I think it is sad to remove Weapon Meditation because it is basically a nice idea and it is something unique and gives some flavor to Kensei. The problem is for me, its just not worth to do it at the moment. At last I am not aware I have ever seen a Fighter siting down and actually doing this.
The question is, what should it do to make it useful without just adding even more flat dps to the game?
It just need a good idea to improve it to just make it useful and worth to do it.
Maybe if you have the +10 Enhancement bonus bonus on your weapon you unlock some kind of action boost that makes your weapon Bludgeon Slash and Pierce for two minutes.
The idea is, to be prepare your sword for a fight against a skeleton, The Abbot for example.
another idea could be to make this action boost adding a vampirism effect for 2 minutes on your weapon (by the way, why does vampirsim on weapons not aid vampires but repairs and heals?)
there for sure better ideas out there.

[acdcrocks]

Weapon Meditation is removed.



This is a real shame. Wep med is a cool idea, and i wish it would get buffed to be actually useful to use like, before a boss fight. If nothing else keep this in the kensai tree.

[count_spicoli]

Yes, this is nearly a no-brainer given how insultingly long the stunning blow cooldown is. I'd even make a case for giving fighters another stunning-like effect within the Kensei tree itself, as fighters simply must have better tactical control of mobs than the other melee classes; which they currently do not.

Yes. I'm not saying bring the cool downs to 6 secs like monk because that is one of the great things about monk and that dc modifier is not there main dmg stat like a fighters but something like 1/2/3 cumulative to make all tactics 9 secs instead of 15 would give fighter better cc which is where they should shine. It could even be in the capstone. Tactics reduced from 15 to 9 secs or something like that.

[Cetus]

Capstones does not need unique build defining features to give players incentive to go pure. They just need to be powerful.

In your mind, what is the distinction between "unique build defining features" and "powerful"?


To see why your suggestion is bad just imagine if they moved Dance of Death to the tempest capstone. The defining feature of tempest rangers would be reserved for only pure builds, completely killing off any multiclass potential that still remains.

Alright, when I imagine a situation where dance of death is the capstone, does dervish become the tier 5 ability then? Because in that case I still see a strong reason to splash 12 ranger - in fact, I personally value boss DPS above that of efficient trash clearing, so I don't value dance of death as much as you seem to; and would much prefer the extra melee power and doublestrike.

So...I don't think your example really holds here. But that is besides the point, because in order to revive the fighter class we will need both competitive tier 5 enhancements and more unique and powerful cores on the path to 20. If things like "one cut" and "spiritual bond" persist as core abilities (or anywhere, for that matter), then the class will remain uninteresting.

[Strimtom]

I guess it provides synergy with whatever you've picked from some other tree to do damage with if multiclassing. Including Wis still makes no sense given there's no wis to damage option anywhere still (not that I'm advocating one, I'd always have preferred if Str remained the only melee damage option, and I say that as someone who favours dex builds. Choices.).

For all those wondering why it could be nice to have +2 to all stats from the capstone, consider...

Strength to hit and damage, from regular melee
Dext to hit and damage from several weapons, and the elf enhancement tree
Con to damage from the dwarf tree
Int to hit and damage from the harper tree
Wisdom to hit and damage from Harbinger of Nature (Druid past life)
Charisma to his and damage from PDK enhancement tree.


All fighters can use their main stat, assuming they invest heavily in other places. It also gives fighters +1 on saves and skill checks as a side effect, which doesn't seem overpowered.

[Seikojin]

For all those wondering why it could be nice to have +2 to all stats from the capstone, consider...

Strength to hit and damage, from regular melee
Dext to hit and damage from several weapons, and the elf enhancement tree
Con to damage from the dwarf tree
Int to hit and damage from the harper tree
Wisdom to hit and damage from Harbinger of Nature (Druid past life)
Charisma to his and damage from PDK enhancement tree.


All fighters can use their main stat, assuming they invest heavily in other places. It also gives fighters +1 on saves and skill checks as a side effect, which doesn't seem overpowered.

Also the all stat buff will help with saves, skills, etc. I don't see problems there for the most part. Definitely not the direction I suggested last year, and definitely not where I would have went this year. However it is a better direction than it is on live.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

this is honestly what i was afraid was going to happen with this pass, but oh well because its not as bad as i thought.

cores:

Strike with no thought: meh ok. fighters need this, i guess its fine here. what i dont understand is why its not tied to weapon focus group. it should be, otherwise its too easy of a buff to non fighters. and no, tying it to wfg wouldnt change that much, but lets at least have some consistency. either handicap fighters with the wfg system, or make weapon focus enhancements and feats universal and just remove the variants and multiselectors and requirements.

One cut: this has yet to be addressed. and make no mistake, it absolutely must. as is its literally unusable 99% of the time, do something, anything, to make it better.

Alacrity: i like the increased action boost bonus. i dont understand +2 to all stats though. i guess its more like +3 to all stats since youre still forcing fighters to take kta...so as someone else already suggested id rather it just be a multiselector of +4 to one stat. cause really, on this class, at level 30, +1 saves and +1 skills is pretty meaningless.


tier 1:

reed in the wind: if you are going to keep this ability, please increase the +[w]. its not going to help heavy armor pure fighters. centered kenseis (which are going to make a comeback if this tree is implemented as is) might get some use out of the dodge, but its still only 9% with 40% uptime, and +3[w]. nobody is going to take this. no. body. either put in five more minutes of dev time to make this worthwhile or just leave it as what we already have and spend more time on other things.


tier 2:

improved dodge: ap cost reduction is a very very good thing here. improved defense multiselector is kinda weak though.

weapon meditation: ok, you removed weapon meditation which was kinda bad, and it was filler points to one with the blade which is now REALLY good, so thats ok. but couldnt you have tweaked it so it was a wis-to-str dm/kta variant? i wouldve preferred that. or at least getting some cool fighter specific ability.

weapon group specialization: this is satisfactory, but why not increase the to-hit to +2 per tier? also, why isnt this change listed in tier 1? also, i think its pretty important that the feat requirements for this enhancement line not be reduced or removed...see one with the blade...


tier 3:

critical mastery: about time...

improved mobility: i like that it now works in any armor, but its still going to cost 2 ap per rank? i feel thats still too much considering the costs of all of the prereqs...

shattering strike: i REALLY like that there is no save on this at all now. however, now it must be clarified whether or not this stacks with the fortification debuff from improved sunder, destruction, and improved destruction. it should. if thats a problem, just give this ability a str based dc.


tier 4:

opportunity attack: so, this has no cooldown it seems, which i like. however it may as well have a cool down because the only reason for using it will be the mp buff. i would much rather this ability work this way: 1/2/3 charges, melee attack deals +1/3/5[w] with +0/1/2 crit range and multiplier. each time you damage an opponent, but not more than once per second, you have a 5/10/15% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 1/2/3. at rank 3 adds: on successful tactical ability use, you gain +10 mp for 6 seconds.

strike at the heart: assuming this stacks with destruction and the new shattering strike and improved sunder, this will be nice. i guess itll be mandatory anyway for the to-hit...

mystery enhancement: plus make this an active defensive bonus tied to shield blocking. it would be a great way to increase their survivability and be unique... something along the lines of +str score to dodge and prr while shield blocking with a weapon in your weapon focus group. that way you dont have to add some ******** hamp or healing that people want, but increase survivability of fighters and also keep their dps in check. also it would be different and cool. win, win, win, win.


tier 5:

a good death: ok

one with the blade: ok, this enhancement is clearly not well thought out. its a prime example of "if we just throw enough **** (crit mods and mp) at the wall (various classes which did not start out the same, but ended up the same), itll stick (yes, it is sticking. but now the wall smells bad)." this is a nice buff for fighters, and thats a good thing. the problem is, now its a nice buff for everyone else too. because of the reductions of the prereqs (which i dont understand why that was necessary for this in the first place...) this will only require 5 fighter levels, meaning its completely exploitable by 15/5 pal/ftrs. i wouldnt say that theres anything inherently wrong with that except that this pass is supposed to buff fighters, not paladins. yes, there would be some significant tradeoffs compared to pure pally, but i think +5 mp, + a bunch of to-hit and base dmg, more boosts, higher tac dcs, and 4 (only two really) more feats outweigh losing 4 cha, 3d6 light dmg, and avenging cleave. simply keep the current prereqs (or just make it require the lvl 8 wf feat) to avoid this issue completely. also, why even bother adding the ranged power bonus? i mean hey i wont mind for when i bust out my thrower, or bow if i go 12/6/2 and decide to do that, but the kensei tree being what it is and what you are proposing...doesnt support ranged at all. meh.

deadly strike: can this please either have its cd lowered a LOT or become something better? fighter is going to have a middle of the road crit profile, above average crit chance with average crit multiplier, so guaranteeing a crit every 20 seconds is really insignificant. the on vorpal portion is what you would be clicking this for. so, if this isnt going to change, it should have less than a 20 sec cd. maybe 6 seconds, since its a tier 5 after all.

weapon master: this is a really funny enhancement. various random people clamor for the fighter dps tree to be redesigned as weapon master, and you give them one very on the nose enhancement. and its ok, but its kind of pointless. once again, sure, ill take the free +3 dmg to my thrower or bow while youre handing it out, but once again why are you? a big chunk of fighter dps is tied up in weapon specific enhancements, meaning if you arent using them your dps is garbage anyway. also i like how one being the master of all weapons means they deal 3 more damage than a non master. honestly i think the real value of this enhancement is the lols its bringing me. meh.


regarding the people who want fighting style specific enhancements...do NOT cater to them. there is no way youll ever balance those remotely well, and all forum suggestions of that nature have been simple rehashes of things that other classes have, just less powerful. fighter should be built around fighter, not other classes.


anyway, id say the only thing that you absolutely must change is tightening back up the prereqs on one with the blade. given that, i am thinking that these dps buffs in combination with the dps buffs of 6 monk and 2 paladin will make 12 fighter a viable class again. pure? less sure...

[janave]

I agree with everything above, except the +1 saves from capstone not being useful, every single +1 to saves a Fighter can get is much needed. One of the worst first time experience on Fighters is literally constantly failing saves, 2-3 trash casters can pretty much hold, stun, fear, spam-cast to death, any chance to avoid that is nice, especially if its "free", as in we would take the ability either way for other reasons.

I also think core 18 should be nearly as important as a capstone, lots of older core 18s are lackful beyond reason, and Kensai is no exception, the early +.5W from Vorpal is nice, but it really stops being useful too soon, not to mention sharing cd with boosting.

Suggestions:
A) Passive +1[W] to focus weapons
B) Each time you dont crit get +3 seeker, adds up to 5, resets on critting. + Permanent Vorpal to focus weapons

As for opportunity attack, a manually activated +W attack to trigger an effect that works similar to "Violence Begets Violence" from Shintao - would be interesting.

A tactical Fighter is a very "clicky intense" experience, and so it really have to be fun and rewarding to play -vs- something that just holds left button or toggles auto attack and finishes a quest 10 times faster, not to mention the hit 1-2 and empty a room type of playing.

[Axeyu]

In your mind, what is the distinction between "unique build defining features" and "powerful"?

Tempest capstone = Powerful
Dance of Death = unique build defining.



Alright, when I imagine a situation where dance of death is the capstone, does dervish become the tier 5 ability then? Because in that case I still see a strong reason to splash 12 ranger - in fact, I personally value boss DPS above that of efficient trash clearing, so I don't value dance of death as much as you seem to; and would much prefer the extra melee power and doublestrike.

So...I don't think your example really holds here. But that is besides the point, because in order to revive the fighter class we will need both competitive tier 5 enhancements and more unique and powerful cores on the path to 20. If things like "one cut" and "spiritual bond" persist as core abilities (or anywhere, for that matter), then the class will remain uninteresting.

You are missing the point. You may not agree with the usefulness of DoD (which leads me to wonder how much you have actually used it), but the point is still that locking such a unique ability away behind 20 levels is extremely limiting to the number of builds that get to use it.

The 18/20 cores can have "unique" features, but not "class defining". Otherwise a 17 fighter/3X would not be able to be defined as a fighter, which is utterly stupid.

The tempest cores are not build defining, yet pure ranger is competetive. So your premise that you need to have it is clearly wrong.

I get that you want fighters to be competetive again, so do I, but just really don't want them to get the barb-treatment, which was balancing the lackluster class almost soley by extremely powerful 18/20 cores. It kills off multiclassing. We need more multiclassing, not less.

[Cetus]

Tempest capstone = Powerful
Dance of Death = unique build defining.



You are missing the point. You may not agree with the usefulness of DoD (which leads me to wonder how much you have actually used it), but the point is still that locking such a unique ability away behind 20 levels is extremely limiting to the number of builds that get to use it.

The 18/20 cores can have "unique" features, but not "class defining". Otherwise a 17 fighter/3X would not be able to be defined as a fighter, which is utterly stupid.

The tempest cores are not build defining, yet pure ranger is competetive. So your premise that you need to have it is clearly wrong.

I get that you want fighters to be competetive again, so do I, but just really don't want them to get the barb-treatment, which was balancing the lackluster class almost soley by extremely powerful 18/20 cores. It kills off multiclassing. We need more multiclassing, not less.

It's quite obvious at this point that you're playing a game of semantics. Your 17/3x fighter example presumably acquired all of the cores leading up to that fighter level...right? These cores would contain "class-defining enhancements" of their own - so...maybe you want to rethink that example (unless you think every core should have banal enhancements, with nothing fitting your definition of "class-defining")? It's fairly obvious that a 17 fighter is not as much of a fighter as a level 20 fighter, so if you go toward 20 and acquire the remaining 2 cores - you're now...more of a fighter! Alright, I'm done beating that dead horse...lol

Here's a simple truism that I don't think you're getting: If incentive exists to go toward 18 or 20 levels in a class, you will *always* lock away outstanding abilities available from multiclassing (if the incentives for and against either decision are designed successfully). Otherwise, what gave you the incentive to go that far into the class? There has to be something unique or enticing to drive you in the pure direction - otherwise, 10/10 times you'll choose multiclassing.

Conversely, by multiclassing, you'll *always* lock away outstanding pure or near-pure options. This is what the road to balance between pure and multiclass characters looks like. Otherwise, you'll have crappy capstone or near capstone abilities, and nobody will ever go the pure or near-pure route (which has been the situation for fighters throughout the past several years). So, I really don't know what in the world you're talking about. Fighter will offer quite powerful multiclassing options already, it's pure form is what needs the most love here.

In other words...

THE ENTIRE POINT of pushing for the inclusion of unique and powerful abilities in the level 18 and level 20 cores, is precisely to provide incentive for people to class above 12 levels of fighter, and bring purer fighter builds back from the dead.

In the end, my fundamental stance is firmly on the side of making pure fighters competitive. All of the multiclassing potential will stem from a solid holistic revamp of the class - this includes adding exciting capstones.

It seems that your vision for the class revolves around attaching all of the shiny stuff to tier 5 so you can pick it all up as a 12 fighter. Then, you never have to move another fighter level forward, and get to multiclass out the rest. That's a terrible place for the class to be, in my opinion. And just as an fyi, I happen to like the way the frenzy tree is set up insofar as the incentive to go pure or near-pure is concerned - so there's another somewhat related point of disagreement.

[Axeyu]

And just as an fyi, I happen to like the way the frenzy tree is set up insofar as the incentive to go pure or near-pure is concerned - so there's another somewhat related point of disagreement.

I think this is the entire disagreement. I think that the way the FB tree is set up is horrible and damaging for the game as it almost completely shut out any multiclassing. The result of that design is that 90% of barbarians are pure and 5% are 18/2x, leaving only 1 in 20 barbarians to be multiclassed. In my opinion that is a disaster and a huge failure.


I don't get your problem with the tempest approach. Pure rangers are highly competetive, and the tempest tree is still good and offers a unique feature to multiclassed builds.

[Claver]

We are currently looking at some solid Kensai changes.


Overall..good improvements. I could see myself taking 12 levels for the power surge but need a bit more enticement to go to 18 or 20.

SUGGESTION: Change the Vorpal effect on One Cut to a static ability (there is enough button pushing already in this tree) and consider increasing this to Sovereign Vorpal at level 20

Tier 5 needs a bit more as well to compete with other trees.

Some more defense within the tree would also be very helpful (see suggestions re: Weapon Master below)





Strike with No Thought: You also gain a +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier.


Does the +1 critical multiplier stack with the +1 critical damage multiplier on Good Death? If not, it should.



Power Surge: You gain +8 Psionic bonus to all attributes for 60 seconds. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki


This is the best change overall - the bonus to all stats makes me want to try new builds. It will be interesting to see how this stacks with Know the Angels and facilitates Spell Swords builds. Strange to think the best Kensei may be a Great Crossbow user.



Alacrity:

+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats



The extra action boosts and bonus to all abilities is a nice start but not quite enough to stay pure. Add an additional +15 melee/ranged Power and a static Sovereign Vorpal ability.



Reed In the Wind: Cooldown is reduced to 15 seconds. Damage increased to +1/+2/+3[W].


Keep this..the extra [W] makes Tier I more attractive...Can I assume this change will help Shinto Monk version of Reed in the Wind as well



Improved Dodge AP cost changed to 1/1/1.
Improved Dodge now has a multi-selector.
Improved Defense: +2/+4/+6 Physical Resistance Rating.


Glad to see a bonus to PRR...keep this please

[

New: Strike at the Heart: Your weapon attacks have the Improved Destruction effect.


This is much more useful than might be obvious - nice synergy with all the critical multiplier/range enhancements throughout the tree. This is a very good addition to the tree. I vote to keep it in the final build please



A Good Death: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds. Extra damage now activates if target is below 30% health. Extra damage scales with Melee Power. Requirements are removed.


The reduced cool down is a big help...30 seconds is way too long for a conditional melee attack. Keep this at 15 seconds please



One with the Blade: You also gain, as part of the passive bonus, +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. Requirements are removed.


The +20 Melee/Ranged Power is huge. It give me a reason to take this enhancement even if I am not a monk and provides a compelling reason to consider taking Tier 5 of the tree.



Deadly Strike: No longer requires an action boost. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds. Change the on vorpal ability to cause an extra 500 damage which scales with 400% melee power.


Reduced cool down and elimination of the use of an action boost is a big improvement



New: Weapon Master: You gain +3 to hit and damage with all weapons.


I'm sure those who run the numbers can demonstrate + 3 damage adds up but its just not that sexy at first glance. Replace this with something else.

My vote is to replace it with an enhancement that bolsters defense, specifically, MRR (see Preternatural Deflection below)

I envision Kensei as being psionic/spiritual warriors with near precognitive abilities to parry incoming attacks and even block magic missles with their focus weapon liken to a Jedi Knight. Something like the Preternatural Deflection enhancement below would help give the tree a bit more flavor.

Preternatural Deflection (Tier V): Equipped weapons that are part of your focus gain +15 MRR, Superior Parrying, and provide the effects of a Shield Spell.

As an aside, I'm not a fan of the Spiritual Bond enhancement in the core of the tree. This feels clunky, doesn't seem to offer much benefit and adds more computations to a game that could benefit from streamlining to reduce the effects of lag.

I'd like to see Spiritual Bond replaced with something else. My suggestion is to replace it with a "Blind Fighting" ability to add more flavor and give a reason to invest in the Listen Skill as well as better support possible multiclass builds.

Blind Fighting: Action Boost: You gain a Psionic Bonus to Dodge equal to your Listen skill for 60 seconds.

[Saekee]

Overall..good improvements. I could see myself taking 12 levels for the power surge but need a bit more enticement to go to 18 or 20.

SUGGESTION: Change the Vorpal effect on One Cut to a static ability (there is enough button pushing already in this tree) and consider increasing this to Sovereign Vorpal at level 20

Tier 5 needs a bit more as well to compete with other trees.

Some more defense within the tree would also be very helpful (see suggestions re: Weapon Master below)





Does the +1 critical multiplier stack with the +1 critical damage multiplier on Good Death? If not, it should.



This is the best change overall - the bonus to all stats makes me want to try new builds. It will be interesting to see how this stacks with Know the Angels and facilitates Spell Swords builds. Strange to think the best Kensei may be a Great Crossbow user.



The extra action boosts and bonus to all abilities is a nice start but not quite enough to stay pure. Add an additional +15 melee/ranged Power and a static Sovereign Vorpal ability.



Keep this..the extra [W] makes Tier I more attractive...Can I assume this change will help Shinto Monk version of Reed in the Wind as well



Glad to see a bonus to PRR...keep this please

[

This is much more useful than might be obvious - nice synergy with all the critical multiplier/range enhancements throughout the tree. This is a very good addition to the tree. I vote to keep it in the final build please



The reduced cool down is a big help...30 seconds is way too long for a conditional melee attack. Keep this at 15 seconds please



The +20 Melee/Ranged Power is huge. It give me a reason to take this enhancement even if I am not a monk and provides a compelling reason to consider taking Tier 5 of the tree.



Reduced cool down and elimination of the use of an action boost is a big improvement



I'm sure those who run the numbers can demonstrate + 3 damage adds up but its just not that sexy at first glance. Replace this with something else.

My vote is to replace it with an enhancement that bolsters defense, specifically, MRR (see Preternatural Deflection below)

I envision Kensei as being psionic/spiritual warriors with near precognitive abilities to parry incoming attacks and even block magic missles with their focus weapon liken to a Jedi Knight. Something like the Preternatural Deflection enhancement below would help give the tree a bit more flavor.

Preternatural Deflection (Tier V): Equipped weapons that are part of your focus gain +15 MRR, Superior Parrying, and provide the effects of a Shield Spell.

As an aside, I'm not a fan of the Spiritual Bond enhancement in the core of the tree. This feels clunky, doesn't seem to offer much benefit and adds more computations to a game that could benefit from streamlining to reduce the effects of lag.

I'd like to see Spiritual Bond replaced with something else. My suggestion is to replace it with a "Blind Fighting" ability to add more flavor and give a reason to invest in the Listen Skill as well as better support possible multiclass builds.

Blind Fighting: Action Boost: You gain a Psionic Bonus to Dodge equal to your Listen skill for 60 seconds.

please put in blind fighting, awesome idea

[Nuclear_Elvis]

As stated elsewhere (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/474112-Any-word-on-the-Kensai-changes?p=5810151#post5810151), the Fighter Class is too diverse to be condensed into just three Enhancement Trees. This is an opportunity to build up an entirely new tree, rather than attempt to pack in so much into one changed tree.

Having said that, Monk should not hold sway over a Fighter enhancement, if you are staying with only three trees and not expanding to 4 or more. All monk related requirements or flavor pushed into Fighter Class is beyond silly. If you want to play Monk Class - then play Monk.

As for multi-classing, I will repeat something from many posts on the Council - multi-classing should not be built into any Class tree. It is Serendipity that should be preserved for when one chooses to splash Classes in the multi-class process. The Fighter tree should be built to make a pure level 20 Fighter viable, with a logical progression of benefits and rewards for continuing on the path to level 20. There has been far too much tweaking, for too long, to take in special considerations of special/unique multi-class splashing. I see Kensei as the ultimate example of this, where Monk infected the tree to this point.

In fact, I'd rather the tree not even be named Kensei, if we only get 3 trees in Fighter. Name it "Weapon Master" or something, and remove all Monk factors.

[Cetus]

As stated elsewhere (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/474112-Any-word-on-the-Kensai-changes?p=5810151#post5810151), the Fighter Class is too diverse to be condensed into just three Enhancement Trees. This is an opportunity to build up an entirely new tree, rather than attempt to pack in so much into one changed tree.

Having said that, Monk should not hold sway over a Fighter enhancement, if you are staying with only three trees and not expanding to 4 or more. All monk related requirements or flavor pushed into Fighter Class is beyond silly. If you want to play Monk Class - then play Monk.

As for multi-classing, I will repeat something from many posts on the Council - multi-classing should not be built into any Racial tree. It is Serendipity that should be preserved for when one chooses to splash Classes in the multi-class process. The Fighter tree should be built to make a pure level 20 Fighter viable, with a logical progression of benefits and rewards for continuing on the path to level 20. There has been far too much tweaking, for too long, to take in special considerations of special/unique multi-class splashing. I see Kensei as the ultimate example of this, where Monk infected the tree to this point.

In fact, I'd rather the tree not even be named Kensei, if we only get 3 trees in Fighter. Name it "Weapon Master" or something, and remove all Monk factors.

Agreed

[Tilomere]

Tempest capstone = Powerful
Dance of Death = unique build defining.



What is this double speak? Quad damage is unique, but 10% more damage is powerful?

Sorry. DoD is overpowered. Bear form is unique. If they nerf DoD at the same time as they release kensai, then the update will be a success. Otherwise you will see 14/6 builds running around just like paladin/ranger.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

What is this double speak? Quad damage is unique, but 10% more damage is powerful?

Sorry. DoD is overpowered. Bear form is unique. If they nerf DoD at the same time as they release kensai, then the update will be a success. Otherwise you will see 14/6 builds running around just like paladin/ranger.

12/6 doesnt work.

to have both +1 crit range and multi you either need 12 ranger levels or sacrifice dod. if it werent for that, i think 12/6/2 ftr/rgr/pal could be incredible, but as it is its straight up worse.

so fighter really has nothing to bring to the table as a splash class for a ranger.

[Powerhungry]

Another option for a core ability is to grant immunity to knockdown (ALL knockdown, not most like 'four good legs') (essentially granting the fighter 'red-named' knock down immunity). Also a fighter laughs in the face of danger and is the front-line tank. As such, at level 20 they should be immune to a dragon's shock and awe effect. These grant the fighter a unique and very tank specific benefit that the other tank (pally) does not have.

[Axeyu]

What is this double speak? Quad damage is unique, but 10% more damage is powerful?

Sorry. DoD is overpowered. Bear form is unique. If they nerf DoD at the same time as they release kensai, then the update will be a success. Otherwise you will see 14/6 builds running around just like paladin/ranger.

What is this randomly quoting something out of context?


I agree that DoD is overpowered.

[Robbenklopper]

Reed In the Wind: Cooldown is reduced to 15 seconds. Damage increased to +1/+2/+3[W].

Sev~

Please don´t Forget to Change this in Monk/Shintao tree too.

[rehakp]

Basically what this is so far.
Passive boost for weapons group specialization. = Hmm ok bigger numbers dont hurt maybe. But not mutch of interesting.
Little tweaking in monk synergies. = Ok but still feels littlebit like this is the fighter/monk tree that fixes the "handwraps (and other monk weapons) fails"
Expanding crit profiles. = This helps of course. But im starting to worry about answer to ALL meelee/range classes is +1/+1 crit profile.

IMHO not feeling in applaud mode after reading this. Had better feeling with changes in other classes/trees recently.
I suggest kensai will be about "bounding" with weapon. Atlest thats kensai in 3.5 paper DnD if i remember.
I suggest adding some enhacements thats adding magical properties to kensai weapon. Multiselector on every tier for some minor weapon enhancement (elemental damage or something else) with maybe some strong tier 5 multiselector like +X magic/+Yvorpal/+holy-ghosttouch/whatever. Maybe even some spell-like weapon-bound abilities. Something like AA-tree have.

[JOTMON]

Would like to see building tactics in one of the enhancement tree's.

~Cumulative effects building on tactics..
T1-+1/2/3 tactics
T2- SLA Tactics separate timer (trip, stun, sunder, sap, hamstring)
T3- Second Tactic SLA.
T4- Secondary effect on tactics.. something like.. you have hone your skills and have a chance of applying a secondary tactic effect on any successful tactic attack (both require separate saves to recover)..
T5-AOE proc's of tactics.. with cooldown.


~Tactics bonus to riposte when defensive fighting.

~Centered in Armor... Your fighter training has advanced to the state where you are able to remain centered even with heavy armor while using your favored weapon.

[Chacka_DDO]

I play my first life dwarf fighter I moved once from the euro servers at the moment and this after his first ER as Kensei tactical swf fighter, and I can ensure you this is far from being broken already now, it is fun to play. Even if it is sometimes a bit frustrating when some builds do from save positions much more ranged damage and kill Monster faster on EE as I can even trip or stun them due to the cool down, while I must run in dangerous monster melee range. But I can live with that, I must not have the highest dps.
I can also tell that with cocoon and other ED abilities it is possible to heal myself enough right now and even aid others in fight so I don't really see a need of even more self heal power. (this is in average epic elite quests some quests are bad designed in my view because you gave normal Monsters immunities like living humans are suddenly immune to trip and stun in Fleshmakers Laboratory or ridiculous high saves against everything dc based, with the result only dps counts = very boring and frustrating if you don't want to follow the main stream to build and drive the most efficient dps/instant kill bot with the least need of hiting buttons).
My main issue while actually playing a tactician fighter is indeed the cooldown of stun and also trip. for stun it would be good to have at last the same 6 seconds cooldown you gave bards with Frozen Fury, I don't even expect the stun last 20 seconds and not only 6 seconds like Frozen Fury for a level 20 bard or I could suddenly stun skeletons and plants etc. like a bard can. I just expect you where very thoughtful by giving bards this ability and set the cooldown to 6 seconds with good reasons and therefore I don't see why stunning blow must be so much worse. For Improved Trip I am undecided, I have not often the issue of noticeable waiting for the cooldown just when I have to get more then four moving targets under control because I am not able to stand the damage from even two it gets exhausting and the cooldown even when I hit thin air mostly for lag reasons (I enjoy a latency of 500ms+ in addition to the current server issues for everyone and both went up for me after the server move) can hurt then.



Kensai Kensei

Core Abilities

Strike with No Thought: You also gain a +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier.

Power Surge: You gain +8 Psionic bonus to all attributes for 60 seconds. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki why do a fighter now get a kind of superior rage without any disadvantage?

Alacrity:
I just miss something that would make it worth a consideration to be a fighter in light or no armor, heavy armor is already very powerful and need no improvement at all. I just have no better idea as being centered in light armor (you are in no armor with One with the Blade anyway) and maybe giving evasion and this with similar reasons as a bard who can get evasion already.
Even more Maximum Dexterity bonus and Dodge cap while wearing light armor is also possible.
Wisdom to damage at this point could make sense. It opens the way to Grandmaster of Flowers (even as monk some players feel forced to tell me I should use Legendary Dreadnought if it comes to dps test quests like Defiler of the Just) and increases the will save, but lowers the tactical feat DC and in most cases it lowers the dps too



+2 to all ability scores how about +3 strength and wisdom?
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats



Tier One

Action Boost:
Attack Boost now adds +4/+6/+8 to hit and damage for 20 seconds.
Fix the bug where the 3rd Haste Boost says it lasts 30 seconds.

Reed In the Wind: Cooldown is reduced to 15 seconds. Damage increased to +1/+2/+3[W].

Tier Two

Improved Dodge AP cost changed to 1/1/1.
Improved Dodge now has a multi-selector.
Improved Defense: +2/+4/+6 Physical Resistance Rating.

Weapon Meditation is removed. I assume you remove it because its not useful but why not move this to one of the core abilities then if you not going to change it? Just to keep it at last for flavor.

Ascetic Training:
Conditioning changed to +1/2/3 Fortitude Saves, +5/+10+15 Hit Points, +5/+10+15 Fortification

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

Tier Three

Critical Accuracy changed to Critical Mastery.
Add Critical Mastery: +1/2/3 bonus to critical damage and to confirm critical hits.

Improved Mobility removed.
Add Athletic Mastery: +1/+2/+3 Maximum Dexterity Bonus and Dodge Cap, -1/-2/-3 Armor Check Penalty. Works in any armor. doe's Heavy Armor need furthermore improvement?

Shattering Strike: Cooldown reduced to 10 seconds, Fortification loss no longer has a saving throw. No longer requires Weapon Mediation. this sounds indeed good, but i have no idea about the stacking rules

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

Tier Four

Critical Damage removed as it was combined into the tier three Critical Mastery.

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2. I would rather like 1/2/4 charges and 5 MP per charge

New: Strike at the Heart: Your weapon attacks have the Improved Destruction effect. If everyone gets this, its meaningless at the end, but useful for sure

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows. Requirement changed to Weapon Focus.

(We are discussing the possibility of another enhancement in this tier that we are not ready to reveal.)

Tier Five

A Good Death: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds. Extra damage now activates if target is below 30% health. Extra damage scales with Melee Power. Requirements are removed. I would enjoy this much more, if it would work like slaying arrow (make it +100 damage or something) and therefore affected by your weapon crits etc, even if it would do less average damage at the end

One with the Blade: You also gain, as part of the passive bonus, +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. Requirements are removed.

Deadly Strike: No longer requires an action boost. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds. Change the on vorpal ability to cause an extra 500 damage which scales with 400% melee power. The same here, additional bane damage on vorpal is a nice extra but i expect more fun with extra damage that is affected by your weapon critical multiplier even if it is less average damage at the end

New: Weapon Master: You gain +3 to hit and damage with all weapons.

I see the Fighter as the reference class for weapon dps in this game and therefore my opinion is, if a fighter throw in the weight of all his feat slots to max out the dps for one weapon type, he must be able to deal the highest weapon damage for this weapon type in this game (and I talk here about the average damage in the first number and not about sneak attack or something).
Now i don't expect at all the fighter dps should be raised to the level of an rog mechanic but you should give the fighter the damage for crossbows you see as the right damage and then maybe consider the damage for rog mechanic need an adjustment for example.
In my eyes the box of the Pandora was opened by giving paladins +1 to crit and thread range with holy sword, this should have never happen, even if paladin where in need of more damage it was to much because paladin get so much more then a fighter.
But now that the box is opened there two ways, give fighters the same to make them keeping up or remove this from paladins.
The same by the way for barbarians, it started as you gave barbarians two more thread range while raged iirc. I think it was a good move at this time, but now that you have melee power as a tool it would make more sense to give ONLY barbarian aditional melee power out of there class enhancements, to raise there average damage on everything they do and not more thread range and crit multiplier on any weapon type at all.

So instead of +3 to hit and damage I would like to see ONE of this.

+1 critical thread range

something that improves the damage within the W[] that means for a long sword for example W[(1+x]d8] or W[d8+x] why this? because no one else get it and therefore its something special for a master of weapons and it amplifies beside of the average damage especialy the use of special moves like cleave and momentum swing and therefore it fits well to the fighter class in my opinion.

The best solution in my opinion and it is very unlikely it ever happens, would be to have something different for each weapon type (like axes get +1 crit for axes on 19-20 in Legendary Dreadnought) but I think I should not even try to make suggestions here even when i tried it before in the thread.


Sev~

[Severlin]

Replies for Kensei:

~ One design consideration is that Kensei is the only DPS tree for fighter. Because of this we definitely moved away from monk specific abilities by making them either more generic, or giving a multi-select option for fighters in heavy armor.

~ Power Boost and the capstone are meant to represent the Kensei's philosophy of balance in all things. From a design perspective they support the fighter's place as a class that can support all types of fighting builds. From a balance perspective they give fighters a needed boost to saving throws.

~ Opportunity Attack: The chance to gain extra charges as you attack happens even when the ability is not active. It is specifically designed as an ability that boosts DPS for players who can actively and efficiently maintain the buff and using the attacks as it becomes available.

~ We will do an AP cost pass. We hadn't done that yet for Kensei.

~ We want fighters to be good whether people multi-class or go pure. We can look at One Cut to see whether it is too weak for core 18.

~ Bow and Throwing Weapons use the base bonuses in the Specialization line.

~ The missing enhancement is still in discussion, but the intent is that it's purpose would be survivability.

~ It is unlikely we will make weapon specific buffs because it will just force players into specific weapons for their favorite buff.

~ We haven't done DPS tests to confirm our maths, so more changes might be forthcoming as we have a chance to do that.

Sev~

[Lauf]

Replies for Kensei:

~ It is unlikely we will make weapon specific buffs because it will just force players into specific weapons for their favorite buff.

Sev~


I understood Cetus' idea differently (and perhaps not as originally intended), but I envisioned it being an enhancement selector much like the one a fighter has in the first level of the tree, and dependent on that choice.

that is to say, if you chose heavy blades, maybe your 'special' active enhancement would be a sweeping strike. if you chose axes, maybe it's limb chop, etc etc.

basically making different types of dps fighters, much like there are different types of dps sorcs.

would this mean some players would prefer one path over another because of the enhancement? absolutely! that's how you create build diversity... more choices. This isn't a bad thing, as long as the enhancements (while different) are not on a completely different level of usefulness, but rather offer a different kind of use.

[Eryhn]

~ Bow [...] use the base bonuses in the Specialization line.


and here i thought maybe just maybe this would add to diversity of longbow builds with +4 dmg per tier ... and help out elf AAs who are still not getting working crit core ... I can see u don't want to buff thrower builds yet further but why not give bows the +4? they are a long shot behind xbow and some throwers in dps anyways. and maybe for the few people who like non optimal flavor stuff, give the ranged +4dmg to all non shuri throw stuff?

[UurlockYgmeov]

I understood Cetus' idea differently (and perhaps not as originally intended), but I envisioned it being an enhancement selector much like the one a fighter has in the first level of the tree, and dependent on that choice.

that is to say, if you chose heavy blades, maybe your 'special' active enhancement would be a sweeping strike. if you chose axes, maybe it's limb chop, etc etc.

basically making different types of dps fighters, much like there are different types of dps sorcs.

would this mean some players would prefer one path over another because of the enhancement? absolutely! that's how you create build diversity... more choices. This isn't a bad thing, as long as the enhancements (while different) are not on a completely different level of usefulness, but rather offer a different kind of use.

why not one step further - choice between 'myrmidon' and 'specialist'. So have what you suggest (multi-selector) with choice of General (buff as it is now) or a bigger buff for a specific weapon like you suggest.

OR

have the Myrmidon (general) buff as it is now, and a multi-selector that gives a weapon specific buff as well.

Would also love to see a tier 5 --- "Experienced Fighter (Ex): Due to years of fighting a variety of foes, a myrmidon as learned to use his head as well as her instincts. Add your Wisdom or Intelligence (Whichever is higher) bonus (if any)to attack and damage rolls. This is cumulative to the Strength bonus." This is a little worse than the P2P Int to Damage because it is tier 5 (as compared to tier 3), so by it being tier 5 it protects the value of Harper (and any possible future P2P trees).

Finally :

"To the Bitter End (Ex): A Myrmidon can continue fighting after damage that would kill a normal hero. The Myrmidon makes a Fortitude save in each combat round after he has been reduced to -10 hit points. The DC of the save is equal to 1 per hit point below 0. Success allows him to keep fighting, while failure causes him to fall dead." as a tier 5. Of course would have to be modified to scale to DDO and Legendary content.

[count_spicoli]

~ The missing enhancement is still in discussion, but the intent is that it's purpose would be survivability.


Sev~

Why not make this the tactics cooldown timer. After all if your not getting hit that improves survivability :)

[Qhualor]

~ We want fighters to be good whether people multi-class or go pure. We can look at One Cut to see whether it is too weak for core 18.

Sev~

I wouldn't say for 60 seconds your weapons become vorpal is too weak, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily strong either. I would suggest something passive like Doublestrike and change Vorpal to Greater Vorpal.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Replies for Kensei:
~ Opportunity Attack: The chance to gain extra charges as you attack happens even when the ability is not active. It is specifically designed as an ability that boosts DPS for players who can actively and efficiently maintain the buff and using the attacks as it becomes available.

~ We want fighters to be good whether people multi-class or go pure. We can look at One Cut to see whether it is too weak for core 18.

Sev~


Sorry, the tree still looks weak. Opportunity needs some more *something*
I still dont see a GOOD value with the tree to go pure fighter.

True class kensai/fighter needs to have a real meaningful tree that compliments the capstone. You're on the right track, but are still short of the mark.

*based on the tree posted by sev here, I am not on lamma-land to test specifics*

[Lonnbeimnech]

I wouldn't say for 60 seconds your weapons become vorpal is too weak, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily strong either. I would suggest something passive like Doublestrike and change Vorpal to Greater Vorpal.
How about

One Cut - Make an attack with +3[W]. If it strikes any Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemy, it must make a Fortitude save (d20 + your Perform skill) or die instantly. (20 second cooldown)

[janave]

Replies for Kensei:

~ One design consideration is that Kensei is the only DPS tree for fighter. Because of this we definitely moved away from monk specific abilities by making them either more generic, or giving a multi-select option for fighters in heavy armor.

~ Power Boost and the capstone are meant to represent the Kensei's philosophy of balance in all things. From a design perspective they support the fighter's place as a class that can support all types of fighting builds. From a balance perspective they give fighters a needed boost to saving throws.

~ Opportunity Attack: The chance to gain extra charges as you attack happens even when the ability is not active. It is specifically designed as an ability that boosts DPS for players who can actively and efficiently maintain the buff and using the attacks as it becomes available.

~ We will do an AP cost pass. We hadn't done that yet for Kensei.

~ We want fighters to be good whether people multi-class or go pure. We can look at One Cut to see whether it is too weak for core 18.

~ Bow and Throwing Weapons use the base bonuses in the Specialization line.

~ The missing enhancement is still in discussion, but the intent is that it's purpose would be survivability.

~ It is unlikely we will make weapon specific buffs because it will just force players into specific weapons for their favorite buff.

~ We haven't done DPS tests to confirm our maths, so more changes might be forthcoming as we have a chance to do that.

Sev~


just play it with recently buffed classes, mechs, barbs, warlocks ..please tell us how much fun you had, this is far more important then joining the ranks of content wrecking builds..

i wish design choices would not be made based on math, stats, calcs and spreadsheets but by actual gameplay experiences.

dps fighter was always a newbie trap post level 10, this pass would ideally change that, it does not matter how much effort i put into Kensai always end up feeling it was self inflicted pain, and i wanna straight delete the thing when i put it next to an easybutton build i could have choose instead

[Captain_Wizbang]

Yes, this is nearly a no-brainer given how insultingly long the stunning blow cooldown is. I'd even make a case for giving fighters another stunning-like effect within the Kensei tree itself, as fighters simply must have better tactical control of mobs than the other melee classes; which they currently do not.


aye

[Zzevel]

Greetings,

We are looking to improve the Fighter to make it more competitive with other classes. We have already begun the process by allowing Fighters to take feats to add lots of Tactical bonuses and extra passive mitigation. We want to further boost the class with enhancement trees changes.


Last Stand: The passive portion of the enhancement is improved to be: +2 Constitution, +2 Strength, +10 Physical Resistance Rating, +10 Magical Resistance Rating, and +2 to the DCS of all Tactical Feats.

Power Surge: You gain +8 Psionic bonus to all attributes for 60 seconds. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki

Alacrity:

+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats


Sev~

So... you plan on giving basically +10 to all stats (instead of just STR).. ALL THE TIME? (the cool down to Power Surge ends before the effect wears off). And by getting the second tier of SD you make it +12 for Str and Con... all the time? (ok, like 10x between each shrine with all the shenanigans to get the extra action boosts, but 10 min between shrines is ~all the time in most quests.)

Anyone who dosen't mind clicking a single key ~every minute... which is way smoother than even a Barb needs to do to get close to that (I think mine has 8 buff type clicks do do before every big battle, and they dont last 60 seconds, im constantly mashing buttons) will now be a beefcake.. Seems really good for little to no effort.. TOO GOOD... IMO

[Severlin]

Why not make this the tactics cooldown timer. After all if your not getting hit that improves survivability :)

There is no clean tech to reduce cooldowns on other abilities. Similar things in the past were hacked into the script system and somewhat wonky.

Sev~

[Severlin]

just play it with recently buffed classes, mechs, barbs, warlocks ..please tell us how much fun you had, this is far more important then joining the ranks of content wrecking builds..

i wish design choices would not be made based on math, stats, calcs and spreadsheets but by actual gameplay experiences.

dps fighter was always a newbie trap post level 10, this pass would ideally change that, it does not matter how much effort i put into Kensai always end up feeling it was self inflicted pain, and i wanna straight delete the thing when i put it next to an easybutton build i could have choose instead

It's hard to play the class during the design phase because the enhancement changes aren't implemented yet.

Sev~

[Severlin]

So... you plan on giving basically +10 to all stats (instead of just STR).. ALL THE TIME? (the cool down to Power Surge ends before the effect wears off). And by getting the second tier of SD you make it +12 for Str and Con... all the time? (ok, like 10x between each shrine with all the shenanigans to get the extra action boosts, but 10 min between shrines is ~all the time in most quests.)

Anyone who dosen't mind clicking a single key ~every minute... which is way smoother than even a Barb needs to do to get close to that (I think mine has 8 buff type clicks do do before every big battle, and they dont last 60 seconds, im constantly mashing buttons) will now be a beefcake.. Seems really good for little to no effort.. TOO GOOD... IMO

You still need to build toward more action boosts to maintain Power Boost.

Sev~

[janave]

How about

One Cut - Make an attack with +3[W]. If it strikes any Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemy, it must make a Fortitude save (d20 + your Perform skill) or die instantly. (20 second cooldown)

I like this, but
i'd drop the [W]s, make it auto-crit on helpless, d10 + concentration or d20+STR mod for an instantkill when helpless cc-d.

This is proper at-tier power :)

I mean its no wail and no aoe pk, but if it comes with a fancy combat animation i take it over those.

[janave]

It's hard to play the class during the design phase because the enhancement changes aren't implemented yet.

Sev~

Alrighty, gotcha ;)

[Captain_Wizbang]

It's hard to play the class during the design phase because the enhancement changes aren't implemented yet.

Sev~


Can't wait to hear the feedback. Im really hoping Kensai works better than it looks on paper.

*ps, your statement is signature quote worthy*

[vyvy3369]

There is no clean tech to reduce cooldowns on other abilities. Similar things in the past were hacked into the script system and somewhat wonky.

Sev~
Maybe I'm not understanding your comment, but there are several places where an enhancement grants a "new" feat, such as kotc smites i believe. Or even just with regular feats such as Improved Trip vs Trip. For example, you could have an enhancement grant Improved Stunning Blow, which has a shorter cooldown, and either removes regular stunning blow or they put each other on timer if removal doesn't work. I doubt anyone would object to having to swap out a hotbar icon for a shorter cooldown.

[Zzevel]

You still need to build toward more action boosts to maintain Power Boost.

Sev~

It's not hard to get action boosts they are all over the place .. you get five per rest plus bonus action boosts from items, classes, races and Epic Destinies.. building some in is SO EASY to do. A +10 STR already makes it a must have for STR fighter builds anyway, +10 all stats puts it over the top for everyone... Then you add in the other stat bonuses and who WOULDN'T use it?

In theory you can keep it up for entire quests, in reality you will hit it as you enter a bigger battles or boss fights making it very easy to use even without a lot of power boosts.

I would change it to a selector of +10 STR or +6 all stats, you would have fans of both and open it to more hard core DPS or the balanced/flavor builder. If you want to keep it as +10 to all stats, change the cooldown to limit the effect so it is not up constantly look more towards the Action Boost standard of 20 Sec with a 30 sec cooldown-ish.

Don't get me wrong, you can already get over 100 in a few of the stats, whats 12 more? but we know those are not standard builds. These builds excel at ONE THING, they are one trick pony's.. You usually build your character to be balanced, giving a +12 to all stats is probably 4 more than most people put into some some of their beginning stats how can a single boost do that when there are boosts in the game that are good with just adding run speed or even a simple +10% doubleshot.. Why does this give SO MUCH for SO LONG?

Hey kids.. you can be better looking, smarter, quicker, stronger, more nimble and wise if you 'use' the 'Power Surge'.. Its the BEST in the game if you want to fight! .. Sounds like drug marketing.

[Tilomere]

so fighter really has nothing to bring to the table as a splash class for a ranger.

This is what I see fighter becoming after this patch:

5 Ranger 1 Cleric 14 Fighter

Enhancements
35 Tempest DoD, Offhand full Stat
21 Kensai Power Surge/Tactics
3 War Priest Divine Might
7 Harper KTA
13 StD 20% HP, PRR/MRR
1 Human AB: Dmg

Dire Charge > DoD + Stunning Blow > DoD + Imp. Trip, all fueled by KTA+DM+Fighter Tactics+Power Surge

ED: LD w/ Balanced attacks/Consecrate/sacred ground/cocoon/primal scream

Feats: Weapon specialization, heavy armor specialization, tactical training, TWF, mental toughness, Imp Trip, stunning blow.

You can go through all heroics raged with madstone boots on healing with ranger empathic healing (not a spell) and house k pots.

Even without critical range enhancement, this is going to be a monstrous build.

[Grailhawk]

This is what I see fighter becoming after this patch:

14 Fighter 5 Ranger 1 Cleric

Enhancements
35 Tempest DoD, Offhand full Stat
21 Kensai Power Surge/Tactics
3 War Priest Divine Might
7 Harper KTA
13 StD 20% HP, PRR/MRR
1 Human AB: Dmg

Dire Charge > DoD + Stunning Blow > DoD + Trip, all fueled by KTA+DM+Fighter Tactics+Power Surge

ED: LD w/ Balanced attacks/Consecrate/sacred ground/cocoon

Feats: Weapon specialization, heavy armor specialization, tactical training, TWF

Even without critical range enhancement, this is going to be a monstrous build.

So your saying no fail Stunning blow is greater then every thing ranger levels 6-20 offer?

IMO 14/5/1 is not grater then just 20 ranger.

[sjbb87]

My sugestion...
Kensei, are weapons master . The bonus should focus more on the chosen weapons.

Remove Keen Edge from tier 5

Strike With No Thought: When you have a melee weapon equipped in your main hand that is part of your Focus, you gain 1% Doublestrike or 1% Doubleshot (depending on whether your Focus is melee or ranged). Each additional Core Ability you acquire from this tree increases this bonus by 1% and+1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range with your Focus weapons

Power Surge: You gain +8 Psionic bonus to all attributes for 60 seconds. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki. Passive: +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier with your Focus weapons

Power Surge:Focus Action Boost: Your currently equipped weapons that are part of your Focus gain the Vorpal ability for 60 seconds. (Cooldown: 1 minute)
AP.Passive:and+1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range with your Focus weapons(total =2)

[Tilomere]

So your saying no fail Stunning blow is greater then every thing ranger levels 6-20 offer?

IMO 14/5/1 is not grater then just 20 ranger.

There are cleric and fighter levels there too, you missed the comparison to a pure 20 cleric war priest, or a pure 20 fighter.

Compared to a pure 20 war priest, this is a fantastic enhancement tree. In fact, it already was a fantastic enhancement tree compared to pure 20 war priest, so I don't even get why it is being changed first.

[Grailhawk]

There are cleric and fighter levels there too, you missed the comparison to a pure 20 cleric war priest, or a pure 20 fighter.

Compared to a pure 20 war priest, this is a fantastic enhancement tree. In fact, it already was a fantastic enhancement tree compared to pure 20 war priest, so I don't even get why it is being changed first.

Did you read what you quoted?

He's says Fighter splash offers nothing to a Ranger I agree with that.

Your builds didn't beat best 20 Ranger for a TWF DPS.

If you're point is other classes need more love the fight your original post does a horrible job of saying that.

[Propane]

A few thoughts…

Core 18 – One Cut is too weak as is… thoughts…
A) allow the vorpal to be granted 100% of the time
B) A Good Death now works when your foes are at 50% hp or less
C) Adaptive Style – regardless of what type of weapon you use – you now bypass bludgeon / slashing / piercing DR


Core 20 – Still missing something.... a few things to chew on..
A) Mobbing the Floor - AOE stun – combine Whirlwind animation with stunning blow effect – all mobs damaged must save vs Stunning DC (highest Stat + stunning bonus) cool down 60 sec
B) Caught Flat Footed - Airguard – DC highest Stat – 3 x proc rate of standard airguard
C) Hit to the Coin pouch – you stun foes while in combat – 5% proc rate – once per 20 sec
D) Master’s Foot Work – you are immune to knock down effects or continuous FOM


Trees

Tier 1

Caught letting your guard down
- 3 ranks / 1 AP - You notice a small opening in your opponents defense and take advance of it
Proc 2/4/6 % of hits - 1d6 sneak attack or Bane damage per core (scales with melee power)

Tier 2

Chink in your armor
- 3 ranks / 1 AP - You notice a small opening in your opponents defense and take advance of it
Proc 2/4/6% of hits - leave your opponent dazed for 1/2/3 sec per core

Tier 3

Glare in the eyes
-3 ranks / 1 AP - Your skill with your focus weapon leaves your foe blinded for a short period of time
2/4/6% of hits for 2/4/6 sec per core

Tier 4

Caught flatfooted!
3 ranks / 2 AP - you catch your foe flat footed and with a slight movement you cause them to fall down
2/4/6% of hits for 2/4/6 sec per core

Tier 5

Hilt to the face
3 ranks / 2 AP - you catch your foe – in the face – stunning them
2/4/6% of hits for 2/4/6 sec per core

[Eryhn]

I dont think the all stats powersurge is that OP, but here is a thought to make it slightly more individual and force some more choices


Lv12 Core: Powersurge:
You gain +6 Psionic bonus to STR and CON for 60 seconds. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki

Tier1: remove: "Reed in the Wind"; replace by "Ascetic Training"
Tier2: remove: "Ascetic Training"; replace by

new Multiselector "Enhanced Powersurge":
Balanced Surge 1/2/3: adds +6 WiS /// adds +2 STR/CON/WIS /// +4 to all other stats,
Tactical Surge 1/2/3: adds +6 INT /// adds +2 STR/CON/INT /// +4 to all other stats,
Graceful Surge 1/2/3 : adds +6 CHA /// adds +2 STR/CON/CHA /// +4 to all other stats,
Swift Surge 1/2/3 : adds +6 DEX /// adds +2 STR/CON/DEX /// +4 to all other stats,

AP cost 2 points per tier.


Version II:

Ideally this would sit in tier 4
to make the effect more backloaded and reduce the buff to multiclass builds having their dps tier 5 in other non fighter trees or make it more expensive for them at least - while still being useful in one way or another even to those as a core with no further investment ...

then, since we are at it,
make it a prerequisite to a tier5 customized Weapon Master Multiselector
that offers individual dmg buff/special CC effect on vorpal to the focus weapon (ie WIS: stunn, INT: daze, CHA: dance, Dex: trip ...

Weapon Master would then be tiered like
1)+2dmg///attack to all
2)+2/+2 added to focus weapon
3) individual CC effect on focus weapon vorpal, short duration of 2-4 sec, no save, may proc once in 20 seconds, effect type dependent on enhanced powersurge tier 4 customization ...

(if it were a tier4 thats pre-req for a tier5reduce cost to 1/2/3 and have the tier5 cost 1/2/3, too)

[Propane]

This is how I would build a fighter after this patch:

5 Ranger 1 Cleric 14 Fighter

Enhancements
35 Tempest DoD, Offhand full Stat
21 Kensai Power Surge/Tactics
3 War Priest Divine Might
7 Harper KTA
13 StD 20% HP, PRR/MRR
1 Human AB: Dmg

Dire Charge > DoD + Stunning Blow > DoD + Imp. Trip, all fueled by KTA+DM+Fighter Tactics+Power Surge

ED: LD w/ Balanced attacks/Consecrate/sacred ground/cocoon/primal scream

Feats: Weapon specialization, heavy armor specialization, tactical training, TWF, mental toughness, Imp Trip, stunning blow.

You can go through all heroics raged with madstone boots on healing with ranger empathic healing (not a spell) and house k pots.

Even without critical range enhancement, this is going to be a monstrous build.

You can build this today and be almost as powerful - I don't see many of these running around...
Is the boost to power surge enough to move this to the top of the build list?

[Alkusoittow]

Opportunity Attack leaves much to be desired, especially at its level. Let's say it's an opportunity for improvement...

I wrote a little C++ program to calculate the probability that the boost will still be active after X seconds, and the results are not good:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y175/academyracer/oa.png~original

This assumes the original description of:
-Max 2 charges
-Cannot apply 2nd charge or reset counter if it's been less than 1 second since last successful proc

Basically, this might give you a 10-20 second boost of ~15 melee power. Twice. Maybe. Only if you're hitting enemies 100% of the time with no breaks. (I took the "miss on 1" into account)

Wow...

If you're walking between enemies with breaks in between hits, it's much worse.

So yeah, this either needs to be boosted higher (more charges allowed), or the discharge rate changed to something greater than 6 seconds, or the effect increased to something more interesting than 10 or 20 melee power.

It's way too weak to be bothered with as-is, especially at Tier 4.


(note: I used the assumption of 1.5 attacks per second, per Mr. Cow's post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144-Vanshilar-s-Attack-Speed-Index-and-Formulae/page3?p=4589650#post4589650) and assumed that a roll of 1 was a miss. The calculation was done by averaging over 100,000,000 different simulations, each of which were 10 minutes long. The probability of boosting after 10 minutes is less than 0.000001%)

[Anaximandroz]

Replies for Kensei:

~ One design consideration is that Kensei is the only DPS tree for fighter. Because of this we definitely moved away from monk specific abilities by making them either more generic, or giving a multi-select option for fighters in heavy armor.

~ Power Boost and the capstone are meant to represent the Kensei's philosophy of balance in all things. From a design perspective they support the fighter's place as a class that can support all types of fighting builds. From a balance perspective they give fighters a needed boost to saving throws.

~ Opportunity Attack: The chance to gain extra charges as you attack happens even when the ability is not active. It is specifically designed as an ability that boosts DPS for players who can actively and efficiently maintain the buff and using the attacks as it becomes available.

~ We will do an AP cost pass. We hadn't done that yet for Kensei.

~ We want fighters to be good whether people multi-class or go pure. We can look at One Cut to see whether it is too weak for core 18.

~ Bow and Throwing Weapons use the base bonuses in the Specialization line.

~ The missing enhancement is still in discussion, but the intent is that it's purpose would be survivability.

~ It is unlikely we will make weapon specific buffs because it will just force players into specific weapons for their favorite buff.

~ We haven't done DPS tests to confirm our maths, so more changes might be forthcoming as we have a chance to do that.

Sev~

Nothing about the SD?

[Captain_Wizbang]

WHATEVER the game plan, don't give us something, decide it is OP, and take it away. Too many times this has been done, and the end result is mediocrity based on Original Posts by a dev.

[Cetus]

Replies for Kensei:

~ We will do an AP cost pass. We hadn't done that yet for Kensei.

It would be nice if you could bring "extra action boosts" down to 1 ap per tier, because barbs currently have that setup. For years I've been asking why a fighter needs to spend double the amount of points for the same ability. This is the time to finally address it.



~ We want fighters to be good whether people multi-class or go pure. We can look at One Cut to see whether it is too weak for core 18.

There's absolutely nothing to look at here. From my experience, it's an awfully unimaginative ability with no aesthetic or unique attributes whatsoever. I vividly remember cursing at this thing when it was first introduced, as it occupied a level 18 core and in fact hurt me through its use of a boost - and what more, it put my real boost on COOLDOWN.

If you have any doubts about this ability being weak, well I really hope I was successful in swaying you - because I can't communicate to you how bad I think it is. This should absolutely positively, without a shadow of a doubt, be scrapped and burned. It does not belong as a level 18 core in the Kensei tree. Yes, I hate this darn thing :cool:

And to drive this point even further - even if this ability did not require a boost, I still don't like this enhancement. Because slapping vorpal on anything adds no flavor to the class, anybody could have vorpal - monks, pally's, barbs, rangers, you name it. What about this ability makes it fightery? Nothing, it's just another example of the "dilution" of the classes we alluded to in earlier discussion. Avoid it, please.



~ It is unlikely we will make weapon specific buffs because it will just force players into specific weapons for their favorite buff.

What? Let's take a moment to reflect on this. "It will force players into specific weapons for their favorite buff?" Umm...of course it will! Just like how I spec my Sorc for electric for my favorite spells (eladar's + chain lightning) and enhancements (wings), or how I spec my barb for hammers to acquire anvil of thunder from dreadnaught. This is the entire point, to give people different paths toward making a fighter that *they like* through a multiselector system; hopefully granting equally enticing and nifty abilities that competedepending on the focus weapons a player decided to choose. Some can be more DPS oriented, some can be more tactics oriented. This opens up a world of variation - so I'm rather shocked you dismissed this idea.

[Cetus]

I understood Cetus' idea differently (and perhaps not as originally intended), but I envisioned it being an enhancement selector much like the one a fighter has in the first level of the tree, and dependent on that choice.

that is to say, if you chose heavy blades, maybe your 'special' active enhancement would be a sweeping strike. if you chose axes, maybe it's limb chop, etc etc.

basically making different types of dps fighters, much like there are different types of dps sorcs.

would this mean some players would prefer one path over another because of the enhancement? absolutely! that's how you create build diversity... more choices. This isn't a bad thing, as long as the enhancements (while different) are not on a completely different level of usefulness, but rather offer a different kind of use.

Yes! That would be a step in the right direction, as opposed to generic attribute buffs.

[acdcrocks]

My sugestion...
Kensei, are weapons master . The bonus should focus more on the chosen weapons.

Remove Keen Edge from tier 5

Strike With No Thought: When you have a melee weapon equipped in your main hand that is part of your Focus, you gain 1% Doublestrike or 1% Doubleshot (depending on whether your Focus is melee or ranged). Each additional Core Ability you acquire from this tree increases this bonus by 1% and+1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range with your Focus weapons

Power Surge: You gain +8 Psionic bonus to all attributes for 60 seconds. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki. Passive: +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier with your Focus weapons

Power Surge:Focus Action Boost: Your currently equipped weapons that are part of your Focus gain the Vorpal ability for 60 seconds. (Cooldown: 1 minute)
AP.Passive:and+1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range with your Focus weapons(total =2)

$.$

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Replies for Kensei:

~ One design consideration is that Kensei is the only DPS tree for fighter. Because of this we definitely moved away from monk specific abilities by making them either more generic, or giving a multi-select option for fighters in heavy armor.

~ Power Boost and the capstone are meant to represent the Kensei's philosophy of balance in all things. From a design perspective they support the fighter's place as a class that can support all types of fighting builds. From a balance perspective they give fighters a needed boost to saving throws.

~ Opportunity Attack: The chance to gain extra charges as you attack happens even when the ability is not active. It is specifically designed as an ability that boosts DPS for players who can actively and efficiently maintain the buff and using the attacks as it becomes available.

~ We will do an AP cost pass. We hadn't done that yet for Kensei.

~ We want fighters to be good whether people multi-class or go pure. We can look at One Cut to see whether it is too weak for core 18.

~ Bow and Throwing Weapons use the base bonuses in the Specialization line.

~ The missing enhancement is still in discussion, but the intent is that it's purpose would be survivability.

~ It is unlikely we will make weapon specific buffs because it will just force players into specific weapons for their favorite buff.

~ We haven't done DPS tests to confirm our maths, so more changes might be forthcoming as we have a chance to do that.

Sev~

-in that case, please redesign and rename reed in the wind completely. it offers literally nothing to a heavy armor build. personally i think you should just put a solid generic dps clicky here. cant be worse than fart in the wind.

-how does a pure fighter support an unarmed fighting build, exactly? do you seriously think that power surge and alacrity make that remotely competitive with a build that has access to both the good unarmed animation and dreadnaught, especially if said build has even some improved unarmed damage dice? stop blowing smoke places that there shouldnt be any. anyways, i mean, if you want to give me +10 to all stats, fine. id just much rather power surge not be psionic but a completely unique bonus type, and get more than +10 out of the deal to my strength. also, once again, a 12/6/2 build is looking better and better because with power surge, said build should have more charisma than a paladin, which means more value out of dm, and the str bonus...so, yea.

-opportunity attack is more like annoying attack in its current form. its a seriously marginal buff. is 10 mp pretty good? yea. but compare this to barb. barb gets 3 clickies which can add much more than 10 mp in total and dont interrupt the attack sequence making it very easy to stack a much bigger mp buff. sure they have 30 sec cds each, but theyre 100% reliable. if op atks 10% proc chance is anything like blitz 10% proc chance this pretty much means unless you have an assload of hp in front of you you almost may as well not click it, and even if you do itll just straight up fizzle out without building a charge half the ****ing time. except op atk is only 10 mp instead of 70 and only lasts for 6 seconds tops instead of potentially forever. obviously im not saying a t4 heroic enhancement should be as good as an epic moment but the similarities are striking. speaking of which. really? REALLY? what is it that makes buffs so much fun? do we not have enough? especially these short duration buffs that require a successful physics check and attack roll, we have exactly 100% too many of those. if you want to make opportunity attack a random thing, at least make it exciting. and an attack. otherwise just rename this as opportunity buff, or opportunity cost, and ditch the pretend image youre trying to polish on this turd. again, please increase the proc chance, or give it a mechanic players have some direct control over via decision making besides "do i attack enemies in this quest, or try to stealth on my pure heavy armor fighter that i built to kill things with?", and give it some DAMAGE. i mean big damage. the more random it is, the more awesome it should be, especially as a one and done effect. another thought, it should deal a buttload of extra damage to a helpless target (stunning blow + op atk combo = worth while tactical maneuvers!!) or grant extra dmg vs helpless or otherwise disabled in addition to the mp a la combat brute if you absolutely wont ditch the horrible buff idea.

-extra ab, tactics, improved dodge, ascetic training, improved dodge should all be reduced in cost to 1 ap per tier.

-read as: "uh we didnt know how improved crit worked when we redid holy sword, so were going to apply a universal balance change in the pursuit of better balance, instead of adjusting the actual thing skewing balance." yeaup, b'okay. heres a tip: one cut isnt just too weak for an 18 core, its too weak for a t1 of even the unpassed kensei tree. if this is not completely obvious, then there are simply no words to express my horror. also, one cut isnt the only issue making a 12/6/2 ck build a lot more appealing looking than a pure fighter. as it stands i think pure kensei fighter is severely lacking in dps compared to a 12/6/2 kensei fighter, with its only benefits being heavy armor which isnt really class specific, and tenacious defense, which isnt even in the kensei tree. btw, either of those are offensive things, just in case you needed to look to be sure.

-maybe you should clarify that in the text. following up on that thought, what? weapon f/s enhancements are now going to provide universal damage bonuses based on weapon type, as in no multiselector? if i am not misinterpreting, can you please overhaul the feats to be the same way? and keen edge? please? like, not even kidding please? i mean why would you not? what makes keen edge more deserving of being screwed than holy sword or crit rage, both of which are individually better?

-i hope its interesting at least. honestly im happy kensei is getting buffed at all, and i dont even really care anymore if its buffed appropriately as long as its fkin remotely playable again, but so far its pretty boring and uninspired. where are the innovative and new kind of enhancements that bard and barb got in their passes, or that gnome got? if its some crappy potion related, hamp related, or healing related thing...just ugh...

-good. too much work for you guys and a losing battle anyway.

-too much of the fighter dps goodies are currently available at lvl 12 or less (much, much less honestly...too much less...). specifically: one with the blade needs to be spread out a bit and not be available with only 5 fighter, keen edge needs to not be available with only 5 fighter, alacrity has been pretty strong but is honestly very easy to live without and i think benefits swf builds by a TON more than twf or even thf builds (i think as far as pure kensei goes, swf str/int kta build is the best way to do it), power surge being a bonus to all stats makes splashing for divine might extremely attractive on thf builds (i think the best offensive way to do a thf fighter will be 12/6/2 ftr/mnk/pal), one cut needs to actually provide some benefit rather than being detrimental or useless in all but the most extreme cases. basically you frontloaded fighter a little too much. as it stands, pure fighter doesnt provide nearly enough dps to compare with a pure paladin or barb or ranger build on its own, and provides less defense. also with the intense low hanging fruit, 15/5 pal/ftr probably invalidates all other non twf melee pally builds.


additionally:

-while were on the fighter pass, can you PLEASE either make inspire competence a music bonus to stats or make stalwart defense not a competence bonus? its really annoying that pally can benefit from everything provided from this barb buff, while a fighter cannot, and also makes better use out of it than a fighter can too. also, because a 12/6/2 ck ftr build wont be using strong defense, its just another thing that will work better for that build than a pure.

can you fix the issue with vanguard mp boost charge stacking? it only has 5 no matter what.

[janave]

Hey kids.. you can be better looking, smarter, quicker, stronger, more nimble and wise if you 'use' the 'Power Surge'.. Its the BEST in the game if you want to fight! .. Sounds like drug marketing.


You are making this look far stronger than it really is, thats why i really dont like paper calcs, you go in game group up and wont be able to hit anything on a Kensai because the mechs, barbs, wlocks, etc...have already dropped the mobs in nano seconds. So i guess that leaves kensai with some raid utility? spamming improved sunder maybe...

For design decisions
Gameplay > Spreadsheets

If anything 'power surge' is a nice all-saves buff, which is much needed for a FTR. I'd personally just make it +12 STR, and +4 all stats if 18th core taken, +8 all stats when capstone taken. That would be a nice buff, without the suggestion that one has to MC into fighter for best ability scores.

Id rather have Fighters benefit more from the Fighter cores.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

For design decisions
Gameplay > Spreadsheets

Id rather have Fighters benefit more from the Fighter cores.

this.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

All of the collective arguments reinforce a going opinion - that Fighter should be the first Class to expand beyond just three Enhancement Trees. The Kensei tree, while an attempt to reflect version 3.5 rules, does not have a solid "fan base" cheering on the monk aspects, and frankly I don't mind if all monk related stuff in the tree goes away (which apparently it will).

But, some food for thought, and this is coming from a player who despises Monk in D&D of all rules/types, much less DDO -- there should be more serious thought given to preserving a "Kensei" tree while building up a new tree called something toward "Weapon Master" or such that offers variations.

I keep repeating this (and will while the tree editing process churns on) -- you are trying to box in too much stuff into a single DPS tree for the entire Fighter Class. Think about this - one tree, just one, for a Class named "Fighter," that is built for DPS. The Class isn't called "Defender" it is called "Fighter." Where are the DPS trees? You could have an array of Trees here for this utility class:
- A Tree to benefit Ranged Fighters.
- A Tree to benefit Thrown Weapons Fighters.
- A Tree to benefit Unarmed Fighters (oh wait, 3.5 Rules already forced that on us, and it's called "Kensei").
- A Tree to benefit SWF, TWF, and/or THF (each of which theoretically could have their own Tree in this Class).

And these could all be in addition to the StB trees (Defensive trees) in this Fighter Class.

This is also about vision - concepts - the Way Ahead. Is it really that hard to expand beyond three Enhancement Trees in a Class?

[Claver]

C) Hit to the Coin pouch – you stun foes while in combat – 5% proc rate – once per 20 sec


Rename this Kick to the Bread Basket Combine the basic unskilled kick attack with the "caught in the web" animation to make it look like someone got kicked in the unmentionables.

I don't think I would be the only DDO player to take a sadistic and childish joy in incapacitating Ogres with a kick to the jimmies. An overthetop ability like this would be enough to make me want to take 12 levels of Kensei or more to access a "fun" special attack. it doesn't have to be all about power..

Lots of good "tactics" ideas here Propane. There could have been a "Dirty Fighting" tactics progression in the Kensei tree that would have made it more interesting but realistically, there is not enough time for Turbine to rewrite the tree if they want it to go out in April/May.

I would propose a compromise to Severin and any other Devs who may read this:

Launch the Kensei next update (U31) as planned but then in the following update (U32) add a few more Fighter Feats (such as was done with armor and tactics) that incorporate "Dirty Fighting Tactics" such as those proposed by Propane (Glare in he Eyes, Sand in the Face - blinding attack) and (Hit to the Coin Pouch/ Kick to the Bread Basket - stunning attack) as well as some of the good ideas proposed by other posters in this thread (such as Blind Fighting suggestion) that otherwise would take too long to implement in time for U31.

Additional Fighter Feats could potentially provide more reason to stay pure or at least take more levels of Fighter even if not explicitly linked to the Kensei Tree.

- Make the new feats have a relatively high minimum Fighter level requirement (say 10+)

- Make some of the new feats "Tactics Attacks" that would benefit someone specializing in Tactics via Kensei and/or racial trees

A tactics Kensei has Stunning Blow and Trip but really needs a third or fourth tactic (like monks Stunning Fist) to cycle through to make a dedicated tactics build fun and effective - and Sunder doesn't count, it needs to be an incapacitating attack for self defense. Extra Dirty Fighting Tactics feats would bolster the Kensei tree.

[changelingamuck]

Alacrity:
I just miss something that would make it worth a consideration to be a fighter in light or no armor, heavy armor is already very powerful and need no improvement at all. I just have no better idea as being centered in light armor (you are in no armor with One with the Blade anyway) and maybe giving evasion and this with similar reasons as a bard who can get evasion already.
Even more Maximum Dexterity bonus and Dodge cap while wearing light armor is also possible.

Improved Mobility removed.
Add Athletic Mastery: +1/+2/+3 Maximum Dexterity Bonus and Dodge Cap, -1/-2/-3 Armor Check Penalty. Works in any armor. doe's Heavy Armor need furthermore improvement?

I agree that there should be some strengthening of cloth and light armor users in this tree. I had pretty much the same sentiments.

I don't believe that this strengthening of cloth/light armor should be included in Alacrity, which is the level 20 capstone, though. Nearly all of the cloth and light armor users who take fighter levels will be splashing at least one other class (monk, rogue, wizard, whatever).

My preference would be that Athletic Mastery would offer +2/+4/+6 Maximum Dexterity Bonus, +1/+2//+3 Dodge Cap, -2/-4/-6 Armor Check Penalty, and +1/+2/+3 Dodge while wearing no armor or light armor. And medium and heavy armor users would get the benefits from Athletic Mastery that are in your quote here. So, basically, cloth/light armor-wearers would get twice the Maximum Dexterity Bonus and twice the Armor Check Penalty reduction, the same Dodge Cap increase of +1/+2/+3, and the added benefit of +1/+2/+3 Dodge to match the Dodge Cap increase.

I think that cloth armor wearing melee characters are in a especially bad spot in the game now. And this is an ideal tree to give them a little boost to compensate for the major disadvantage of their lack of PRR. I'm not sure about the idea of giving out evasion in this tree though. I'm typically not a fan of giving outside classes access to benefits that were previously exclusive to specific classes. Evasion is characteristic of rogues and monks and I think they should maintain that uniqueness (well, except for bards and shadowdancers have it now, but that wasn't a great move, IMO).

[Aelonwy]

without the suggestion that one has to MC into fighter for best ability scores.



I'm sorry but that says it all right there. I understand that just about any stat now can be used for combat but I cannot wrap my head around how calmly everyone is accepting a +8 to all stat surge and a capstone that is half the completionist feat and acting underwhelmed by it. In my opinion both need a multi-selector. If this is about fighter saves, boost them some other way, say by increasing Resilient Defense or putting a bonus to saves in Surge but if these ability score bonuses are about combat then put them in multi-selector format so people have to make a choice.

I still think fighters need some kind of healing. Either improved healing from potions or maybe something similar to Dwarven Iron Stomach where every time a fighter drinks anything they heal some amount based on fighter level?

Also count me as another person who would prefer Weapon Focus to really matter, that is:


I envisioned it being an enhancement selector much like the one a fighter has in the first level of the tree, and dependent on that choice.

that is to say, if you chose heavy blades, maybe your 'special' active enhancement would be a sweeping strike. if you chose axes, maybe it's limb chop, etc etc.

basically making different types of dps fighters, much like there are different types of dps sorcs.

would this mean some players would prefer one path over another because of the enhancement? absolutely! that's how you create build diversity... more choices. This isn't a bad thing, as long as the enhancements (while different) are not on a completely different level of usefulness, but rather offer a different kind of use.

Oh and while we are it, its always bugged me that there is a Two Handed Fighting Style but there isn't a Kensai Focus for just that style, yes you can choose axes or heavy blades or hammers but if you are 2HF you probably choose to use all three and especially as a fighter (rather than barbarian) you have the feats to take multiple improv crit feats. If there is a Druidic Weapons option, and a Martial Arts option, there ought to be an inclusive 2HF option that excludes any non-two handed melee weapon.

[legendkilleroll]

Cant recall where it was but sure it happened, maybe someone will link it, when Sev said swashbuckler was where they wanted melee's to be, now we already have things like barb and rangers that are above that, now swashes who use light picks or hand axe can benefit from the multiplier so that bar is raised again

As for kensai, i dont think it looks to bad atm, guess will have to see how they do compared to others when lamannia is up,
I like the ideas about different weapon types doing different things, you already choose a group of weapons anyway so as long as one option isnt so far above the rest people will have some different choices to make when selecting weapon group

I do think the 18 core needs to change, i was thinking a multi selector, you could have

Damage option, on crits/vorpals, per hit or whatever

Defensive, ofc nothing like barb gets with healing as that would be too much i think but maybe add something like vampirism to weapons

Support, maybe something to do with tactical abilities, current or a new one, bard got those awesome freeze abilities after all, add some effects that hinder the mob

Sure others will have better suggestions than i do, I dont want to see anything OP, just some ideas as atm the 18 core isnt worth it, classes really need to differ from one another, i know alot always want the crit boosts but then its just the same, has to be some reason to take more fighter levels.

[Selvera]

Thanks Sev, great to get some insight onto what's happening here.

So let me give all of my opinions, because opinions.

Stalwart Defender
Ok, nice to get a capstone buff. I like giving a little bit of incentive to go pure (any class/tree) in this world of everything is multi-classed. Prr/Mrr fits stalwart defender very well.

Vanguard
Bug fixes are always good.
Would also be good to fix the display bug for the shield specialization tree. (Testing has said that it does increase damage, but it does not show up on the inventory damage numbers).

Kensai

Core Abilities

Strike with No Thought: This is something that Kensai needed to catch up with other high-powered melee trees. Sticking it in the level 6 core is an interesting place for it, we'll see how this effects multi classing. previously, strike with no thought was rather lackluster for multi-classed, so it's good to give it a buff.

Power Surge: I like the all-stats buff, opens up more options without significantly increasing the power of the ability.

Alacrity: I like the all-stats buff, opens up more options without significantly increasing the power of the ability.


Tier One

Action Boost: Attack boost seems to be very powerful in heroic, not sure if it will hold up in epics. I would probably start with attack boost, then at around level 20 reset enhancements and pick up haste boost.

Reed In the Wind: I like the buffs, much needed. I might consider having/using it now, as it seems pretty cool, however it's at the same tier as haste boost, so it might remain unused for this reason, unless I'm filling in points to get to 30 for the T5's.

Tier Two

Improved Dodge/Improved Defense: Looks ok, however why did you pick 2/4/6 PRR for improved defense instead of 3/6/10?

Weapon Meditation I'm okay with this. Meditation was rather difficult to use in parties except sometimes while preparing for the boss.

Ascetic Training: I like the conditioning change. Unsure of if contemplation could use a similar buff.

Weapon Group Specialization: On one hand I like this change, on the other hand I feel like this is a huge buff in heroics and much lesser a buff in epics. We'll have to see how this turns out. I would have suggested it be +1 hit/damage and +1 melee(or ranged) power, +1 hit/+2 damage +1 melee(or ranged) power for 2 handed and non-repeating crossbows.

Tier Three

Critical Accuracy Yep, updated, good.

Improved Mobility/Athletic Mastery: makes sense, as fighters are supposed to be the heavy armor masters.

Shattering Strike: DC could have been tactics based, it's okay removing the save I guess.

Weapon Group Specialization: Similar to my note above, but at this tier I would have suggested +2 melee/ranged power (instead of more damage).

Tier Four

New: Opportunity Attack: Interesting, might be useful, might be under-powered, we'll see how effective it

New: Strike at the Heart: Ok.

Weapon Group Specialization: See above, would have suggested this tier get +2 melee/ranged power (instead of more damage).

(We are discussing the possibility of another enhancement in this tier that we are not ready to reveal.) - This sounds like a good idea, I'm excited to hear more.

Tier Five

A Good Death: Looks good.

One with the Blade: Was always confused to what centering did if you weren't multi-classed monk. Also not sure why only melee weapons center.

Deadly Strike: Looks good.

New: Weapon Master: Looks good. It would make sense if this hand the weapon specialization pre-req instead of keen edge.



Kensai abilities that weren't touched that I think should be:

Spiritual Bond: It would be cool if the insight bonuses granted by this would increase spell-power when used with implements.

One Cut: Kensai's have a lot of action boosts to keep track of, especially if you stack them with epic-destany action boosts. Would it be problematic if this was passive vorpal while centered?

Keen Edge: Fix the bug to allow it to work with handwraps.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

...[truncated]...Would it be problematic if this was passive vorpal while centered?

To specifically critique this one item - if Kensei is the only DPS/weapon focused tree we get, and no 4th tree is built (or other successive trees), then the Monk pre-requisites should all be removed. If we only have one single DPS tree in Fighter, regardless lore of 3.5 rules, this tree should not force Monk Class into the tree, period. The "Centered" requirement should not ever exist in Kensei, going forward, if this is the only DPS/weapon focused tree.

[Phil7]

I want to raise some awarness on the fact that S&B Fighter is very very strong at the moment in end game with proper gear (and past lives) if he focuses on the vanguard tree. The thing is people are busy ER/IRing their warlocks/mechanics or whatever and you see almost 0 fighters out there.
You can't see how strong he is if there is no1 out there to show you, but trust me my main is a S&B toon. I keep hearing that Paladin is better, but Pally is just easier, with more panic buttons and higher innate saves. The Fighter relies on Cocoon, that is true, but he is a beast... everything is just perma stunned on EEs, kill count is always very high, crit numbers are just mad, and survivability... I can only think of 2-3 other classes that can compete with that.
It's nice of course that you change Kensei, because there was just no reason to invest in it and I never did on my build anyway. And also nice that you buff the Staltwart Defender capstone, cause you have to lose ur perma-stun capstone for it. But please be careful about making him too strong, because once people start IRing into PDK fighters and hit the epic levels you will see how strong he actually is. And then every1 and their grandma will be playing S&B with no freaking clue of what they are doing, spoiled by the relaxing gameplay of their warlocks.

[count_spicoli]

There is no clean tech to reduce cooldowns on other abilities. Similar things in the past were hacked into the script system and somewhat wonky.

Sev~

thanks to the reply sev but this statement is paticularly alarming. What i get from this is that anything that requires real coding or new coding aint gonna happen. Only rehashed enhancements that already exist like crit multiplier, prr/mrr , dmg boosts. This has a feel of we are to busy with other things(arkham) to bother with ddo.

[Selvera]

To specifically critique this one item - if Kensei is the only DPS/weapon focused tree we get, and no 4th tree is built (or other successive trees), then the Monk pre-requisites should all be removed. If we only have one single DPS tree in Fighter, regardless lore of 3.5 rules, this tree should not force Monk Class into the tree, period. The "Centered" requirement should not ever exist in Kensei, going forward, if this is the only DPS/weapon focused tree.

Kensai can become centered with a T5 ability, which they can get at level 12. Is it so bad to require being centered to use a level 18 core ability in the same tree?

[changelingamuck]

thanks to the reply sev but this statement is paticularly alarming. What i get from this is that anything that requires real coding or new coding aint gonna happen. Only rehashed enhancements that already exist like crit multiplier, prr/mrr , dmg boosts. This has a feel of we are to busy with other things(arkham) to bother with ddo.

It can also mean that, based on financial projections, it might not look like DDO would be able to generate a high enough profit margin to justify the cost of the amount of time and labor required for such coding. It's not like they're going to devote more time and labor to a different project just because they're really jazzed up about it. I mean, they have people who do maths to determine how to allocate their resources in order to generate the most $$$. Because it's a business and this is how capitalism works. And if they're not doing something, I think it's a safe bet to assume that they have reason to believe that doing that something wouldn't generate enough $$$ to justify the cost. [No, I don't have any inside information relevant to this. Just making a point about the workings of businesses in general.]

[IronClan]

Ranger also wins because it has Stalker as a second tree to pick up more DPS, Fighters next best DPS tree is Harper.

These changes probably put Kensei/Fighter ahead of Paladins when looking at DPS but Paladins have them beat hands down at survival do to much better self healing.

I agree the current setup looks at first glance to put them some measure ahead of Paladin, and allows some more multiclass flexibility and more potential trade offs for multiclassing, and IMO the trade off of Paladin having better healing makes this perfectly fine.

Ranger is it's own problem, it needs a nerf, in terms of melee it's the best DPS, has DoD for AOE, while also being the best mitigation, and every bit as good self Healing as a Paladin. Ranger should probably be great single target DPS, bad AOE, and overall lower DPS than either Paladin or Fighter, with the current mitigation left alone. All ofc IMO.

[Jetrule]

I am satisfied with the changes to Kensai except..

I would love to see weapon group thrown receive better bonuses for non shuriken throwing weapons as weapon focus crossbows does for non repeater crossbows.

I would like to see the psionic strength bonus remain 8 and other abilities +4.



Stalwart defender needs more work to be comparable to Paladin Sacred defender. They have nothing to compare to Paladin self healing and thus are inferior tanks, even though they have roughly the same defenses in the Fighter Stalwart Defender tree as Paladin does in the Sacred Defender tree. I would love to see it balanced in a different way and one geared more towards pure or nearly pure Fighter tanks.


I would ask for a +10 healing and repair amp bonus to Stalwart cores beyond the second (lvl 3) core. For the lvl. 12 core, let any healing or repair potion also add a secondary effect. Like the Dwarven potion drinking enhancement, Iron Stomach. I would suggest a selector for the Cure serious wounds/repair serious damage spell as the extra effect. And for the Level 20 capstone or 18 core let any potion drank also cast the Panacea spell.

If you are determined to keep self healing away from fighter I would like to see Stalwart focused Fighters be more resistant to physical damage than any other character could achieve. To that end I would suggest a Stacking +2 a.c. and 5 Prr. bonus to each defender Core except the capstone which could easily stand a +10 a.c. and +20 prr. 10 mrr. Rather than the proposed 10/10. I would also suggest adding 5 prr and mrr to each 3rd tier enhancement tied to Stalwart stance. And doubling the bonuses of the defensive action boost. If a fighter cannot self heal A pure fighter defender should be the most resistant to damage character there is.

[IronClan]

My first thought when seeing this at level 6 was WOW to low level but thing taking a step back I realized it don'ts really make anything OP now as everyone has a crit multiplier by 20. This just opens up some options for classes that don't and probably should get a crit multiplier (Warpriest for instance) ... Or maybe this just sets the precedent so that we can give those classes a multiplier either way it really don't hurt anything now.

I agree with you on this score, I think putting it at 12 or 18 would be too "generic" to similar to every other Class, and IMO make Fighters more difficult to multiclass than they should be. We already need 12 fighter for Powersurge +8 to everything.

IMO Fighter should be multiclass friendly and as long as you can't Stack Holysword etc. with 6 Fighter levels for X2 crit (which you obviously can't do because they are typed the same) I don't see a problem. I agree it does Help some potential Divine melees, though I really think Warpriest needs to have it's own crit expansion for "Deity favored weapons" when that time comes.

The place where this gets Juicy is making mix and match bard snyergies... but these weapons are very weak in general and the potential for making a 19-20 HEAVY Pick with a X5 multiplier already exists with Holysword... so I don't see a LIGHT pick with 19-20X5 from a Swash/Fighter multiclass all that concerning myself.

[IronClan]

I want to raise some awarness on the fact that S&B Fighter is very very strong at the moment in end game with proper gear (and past lives) if he focuses on the vanguard tree. The thing is people are busy ER/IRing their warlocks/mechanics or whatever and you see almost 0 fighters out there.
You can't see how strong he is if there is no1 out there to show you, but trust me my main is a S&B toon. I keep hearing that Paladin is better, but Pally is just easier, with more panic buttons and higher innate saves. The Fighter relies on Cocoon, that is true, but he is a beast... everything is just perma stunned on EEs, kill count is always very high, crit numbers are just mad, and survivability... I can only think of 2-3 other classes that can compete with that.
It's nice of course that you change Kensei, because there was just no reason to invest in it and I never did on my build anyway. And also nice that you buff the Staltwart Defender capstone, cause you have to lose ur perma-stun capstone for it. But please be careful about making him too strong, because once people start IRing into PDK fighters and hit the epic levels you will see how strong he actually is. And then every1 and their grandma will be playing S&B with no freaking clue of what they are doing, spoiled by the relaxing gameplay of their warlocks.

Congratz you enjoy your build nothing wrong with that... However mathematically speaking there's no way a fighter Vanguard can keep up with a Paladin presently and the paladin has innate self healing on top of the DPS advantage. This is to say nothing of Ranger. A fighter right now without multiclassing help (I.E paladin or Monk levels) is liable to be rolling with "only save on a 20" saves in EE and LE content.

No only that but a Fighter S&B to get their crit range bonus must forgo T5 of Vanguard, to take Keen Edge from Kensei which is not nothing if you like Shield rush. Which reminds be we need to bug Sev about Fighter Vanguard effectively having no T5's due to the need to take Keen edge...

Last I saw on Lam DPS tests showed Vanguards taking 120-140 seconds to beat down the giant Kobold
Ranger's in the same time frame were down to 40-60 seconds...

The shield+heavy armor is NOT better mitigation, they are arguably similar to Evasion/Light armor + PRR, this is due to the fact that once you have about 100 PRR the opportunity cost of increasing PRR from Heavy armor (no evasion) becomes steep, it becomes steeper still when adding a Shield to replace evasion, it literally halves your DPS. So the trade off that should be there doesn't exist... there's no reason to use a Shield when you can get just as much/more mitigation from Ranger while doubling your DPS at the same time.

BTW Ranger doubles the DPS of a Holysword Vanguard, NOT a Fighter Vanguard who's missing the crit multiplier. After this update though they should be roughly equivalent with Fighter still having a healing disadvantage, their DPS should be roughly similar with more MP for the Fighter to offset the lower self healing as the tradeoff... IMO this is exactly as it should be. Another trade off ofc is that fighter is more multiclass friendly and that's fine as well.

[lyrecono]

too long didn't read

With all these changes, can i now build a pure lv 20 melee fighter and contribute in LE tempest spine (besides being a rez scroll dispenser?)

I haven't played a pure lv 20 fighter/10 epic in a while now but;
Can you actually have a stun/trip dc worthy of LE raid content?
Can you have the hp/saves/prr/mrr to withstand the brutal dp mobs dish out on LE raids? (the 4k polar rays, the 4k hits by sorjec, etc)
Is the dps sufficient to warrant a spot in LE raid content, or will raid leaders skip you in favor of the barb/paly/bard/rog mechanic?

[Tilomere]

In terms of supporting weaker builds the crit multiplier and kensai tree does allow for different and solid repeater and bow builds. I see ranger/fighter/monk bow combos being better, as well as fighter/ranger/x repeater combos.

Still won't get back to the glory days of a barb/ranger/fighter critical rage/sniper shot/weapon specialization using a traded holy sword repeater with double shot before the nerfs, but it will pack enough punch for solid leveling.

The crit multiplier has to stay at core 6 for warpriest type builds to have access to heal and retain the "priest" part of the class.

Unarmed/shape shifted should be removed from kensai as a listed option. It has never worked.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

while were on fighters, it would be nice to know if there are any plans to fix or update the feat list as it pertains to fighters, but also in general.

[Cetus]

I still don't see these changes being remotely sufficient for fighters to be competitive in LE content. Of course, part of the solution here depends on a complete feat overhaul.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Kensai can become centered with a T5 ability, which they can get at level 12. Is it so bad to require being centered to use a level 18 core ability in the same tree?

Yes, it is so bad - remove the T5 ability to be centered. This entire tree should be devoid of Monk terms/prerequisites/requirements. Monk is a cancer in this tree - operate and cut it out (If, and only if, there is no plan to expand beyond just 3 x trees for Fighter).

[Requiro]

I do not read all thread, but I have some questions about tech and stacking issues. Also some suggestion, where Kensei Tree could be improved:

QUESTIONS:

Improved Dodge – It is still don't stack with Tempest: Improved Dodge? Does Improved Defense stack?
Does Weapon Group Specialization for Tier 1 will be improved?
Does new Athletic Mastery stack with Tempest: Improved Mobility?
Does Strike at the Heart work with any weapon not only melee?
Why there is no multiselector for Ranged version of Opportunity Attack?
Does a Good Death +1 critical bonus multiplier stack with new Strike with No Thought passive +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier bonus?



SUGGESTIONS:

Core 1: Add +1 dmg for Focus weapon
Core 18: Changes to passive one (any focused weapon gain Vorpal ability)
Core 18: Add 2nd Kensei Focus choice (but not the same as in Core 1)
Core 20: Add very slowly Action Boost regeneration: 1 per 360 second
Tier 3 and 4: Stat multiselector: Any stat to improve (not only Wis, Str, Dex)
(Depends of DPS result testing) Add 2nd rank on Tier 5, Keen Egde (2AP cost)
Weapon Master improvement for 2hd weapon: +6 damage
Overall AP cost reduction.

Overall very nice changes, much better then AA. But well, that was easy to anticipate.

[GlassCannon]

<snip> - Read the original post if you're confus (https://i.imgur.com/aaw7R1W.jpg).
Suggestions

Add some healing amp to one of the fighter trees add it in the core or as a rider on other good enhancements. You don't need barbarian levels here but you need fighters to have enough to make there weak healing options better
Fighters need a second DPS oriented no Weapon and Shield tree or Fighter vanguard needs to do more for non W&S Fighters. Guess you could also update Harper a bit but that has bigger issue.



Agreed. I retooled my Fighter when the trees went live then promptly parked him due to having only 1 truly "Frontline Raw DPS" tree. My Fighter has always been a "Huge HP, Huge Damage" build and uses a Greataxe. I second the motion to have a tree supplementary to this specific effort or an expansion on the current Kensei tree (like Kensei Mastery sub-tree that soaks up the rest of the 80 AP while providing amazing bonuses after level 12 or 16 or whatever).

As far as Multiclass Stacking goes, for the sake of balance I would make a lot of the Enhancements not stack with each other so I could keep my NPCs power levels under 9,000.

[GlassCannon]

Yes, it is so bad - remove the T5 ability to be centered. This entire tree should be devoid of Monk terms/prerequisites/requirements. Monk is a cancer in this tree - operate and cut it out (If, and only if, there is no plan to expand beyond just 3 x trees for Fighter).

The centered concept likely comes from a popular earlier (2010? 2012? I forget) build of 12fighter/monk8.

I agree that Centered should not appear in a Fighter tree. Fighters use instinct, not centeredness. Kensais train and train and train until the knowledge is no longer knowledge. It is innate, subconscious, autonomic. They should be able to make full unmitigated attacks even while under mind-paralyzing compulsions, because they don't need to think to strike. Of course this is very very bad if they ever get Charmed. Still, the point remains.

If the Devs want to have Fighter effects drop off when a Monk becomes uncentered, the text needs to read as such.

I've been thinking lately amidst my responsibilities and coursework about proposing multiclass "hybrid" trees that are only accessible to particular builds. My first example would be a Monk 6 Henshin/Sorc 6 Fire Savant: Psionic Flame Warden, because duh Monks focus becoming attuned to the world around them to a point of becoming Psionic, though D&D doesn't like to admit it. Just have a look at the Shaolin, Tai Chi, Gung Fu, Ling Tsung and other martial arts if you doubt it. Folks with swords and axes simply do not measure up to a Monk in most cases. The Flame Warden would basically be a raging AoE inferno that eventually bypasses all resistances and "immunity" to fire because it surpasses a simple elemental type.

Another concept to throw out there? Rogue 6 Assassin/Monk 6 Ninja Spy: Butterfly Sword Master (dagger/kukri/shortsword with sneak/deception DPS focus based on Monk stances kind of like Meditations of War in the Shintao tree) or Mecurial Death Shadow (pushes the crippling and death effects to another level).

Just ideas. Have fun out there!


Such a shame I don't have Borror0 and the others to bounce these ideas off of... I have to put them on the open forums instead.

[Tilomere]

Your builds didn't beat best 20 Ranger for a TWF DPS.



I'm willing to bet my fighter builds end up competitive with ranger or any other class in the game in any dungeon. Actually, the more I think about it, I fully expect my fighter builds to surpass the overall power of a ranger, multi-classing as above or with a cleaving T5 Kensai.

I think the tree is about right as proposed.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I still don't see these changes being remotely sufficient for fighters to be competitive in LE content. Of course, part of the solution here depends on a complete feat overhaul.


Aye, and the latter part of the post, "is what I thought were in store for w/ the kensai tree"

[Captain_Wizbang]

I do know this, Kensai has been in need of this pass for some time. A main problem I see w/ the devs position, are the varied builds using the tree, and how to accommodate them.

My personal viewpoint is to make the tree strong within its class, and let people adapt to using the tree w/ their builds. OK, people that disagree w/ this have builds that rely on the tree for optimizing them. Adapt I say, people had to adapt the old "batman" build. And some still play it.

*Ferd tosses a few coppers on the table and walks away* :cool:

[Tilomere]

The prior 15/5/1 Kensai DoD build is solid, all around, tank/heal/CC/DPS. But it is also something I worked up in 15 minutes to examine an AoE tactical fighter, which I find to be very powerful all around. I also found proposed Kensai to be solid but not overly powerful in splashed repeater and bow builds primarily due to the crit multiplier.

However I wanted to examine the proposed power of T5 Kensai in a non-tactical cleave build, like my favorite Supreme Cleavage, which for many reasons is the ultimate build in DDO.
-------------------------------------------

Supreme Cleavage, the Ultimate Build in DDO

*deleted*

Put it all together: 2.4 x 1.65 x 700 x 2.4 x 1.2 x 1.05 x 1.05 x 1.2 = 10.5k Supreme Cleaves with Axe of Famine.

--------------------------------------
Conclusion: build seems pretty supreme to me, but everyone will still ask for more fighter dps. Why? Because this doesn't fit their LD fantasy.

[IronClan]

If I hit 15 targets

Sorry man but that was pure Forum DDO. Rarely do even all the mobs surrounding you in the first row get hit with a single supreme cleave. let alone 15

Ultimate build in the game? Don't you think that's a little presumptuous? I find melee's to be really outclassed by ranged these days personally, tree builds are powerful but they also are just as likely to have to run after a IPS mob train or run off solo'ing as any other melee...

[Selvera]

Forgive the person who's not used to high-level epics, I follow most of your math, but there's one thing that really confuses me.



Base dmg is (71(2d8) +61) = 700


From what I read, most end-game weapons don't have more then 5[w] damage, guild buffs is 0.25[w], some feats/epic destanies might add as much as 2[w]... which I add up to be 8[w] maximum, which is a far shot shy from 71[w] damage... what am I missing here? Why was this part not explained?

If you were using 7(2d8)+61 = 123, your final damage number would be *only* 1.5k per supreme cleave (per target).

[IronClan]

Yes, it is so bad - remove the T5 ability to be centered. This entire tree should be devoid of Monk terms/prerequisites/requirements. Monk is a cancer in this tree - operate and cut it out (If, and only if, there is no plan to expand beyond just 3 x trees for Fighter).

Hi you've confused options with prerequisites and requirement, I surely hope the Dev's don't destroy current centered kensei builds because a few people can't see past the option to do something and consider it a requirement. I don't think they will, as something that drastic would be out of character as this point in the development cycle.

There are useful things and build choices that are valid that benefit a 20 fighter taking keen edge that requre NO MONK. there's 20mp. there's various GMoF destiny stuff most notably "Dance with Flowers" 1.5W to your weapon that requires no monk levels and benfits you no more if you are 12/8 fighter/monk or 20 fighter.

The stronger options of other multilcasses and Warlock ES stuff have amply balanced out the power that Monk added to kensei, in fact I'd go so far to say that 2, 6 or 8 monk levels are not even in the top 3 of what many people will do with Fighter multiclassing after this revamp.

Relax and please stop begging them to destroy one of my favorite builds, one that is not even CLOSE to the top of the meta.

[IronClan]

Forgive the person who's not used to high-level epics, I follow most of your math, but there's one thing that really confuses me.



From what I read, most end-game weapons don't have more then 5[w] damage, guild buffs is 0.25[w], some feats/epic destanies might add as much as 2[w]... which I add up to be 8[w] maximum, which is a far shot shy from 71[w] damage... what am I missing here? Why was this part not explained?

If you were using 7(2d8)+61 = 123, your final damage number would be *only* 1.5k per supreme cleave (per target).

Tree build, it gives massive +W as you increase in size, I've seen reliable people post crits as large as 30k blunt damage. It's considered brokenly OP by many... IMO it's just super klunky (animation is terribad) and so far outside the normal fantasy archetypes and flavors that it's uninteresting to me personally. To each their own though.

[Selvera]

Wow, that's one powerful ability. Makes me want to dip into primal next ^^.

[Seikojin]

Wow, that's one powerful ability. Makes me want to dip into primal next ^^.

It is broken much like monk and druid melee combat.

[Silverleafeon]

Here's today's interview with Sev. It's the first six minutes of today's video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4nNLDdi5CY

Kensei tree mentioned in video, not had time to make bullet points.

[Domince]

Greetings,

We are looking to improve the Fighter to make it more competitive with other classes. We have already begun the process by allowing Fighters to take feats to add lots of Tactical bonuses and extra passive mitigation. We want to further boost the class with enhancement trees changes.

We are currently looking at tweaks to Stalwart Defender and some solid Kensai changes.

(I just wanted to say that these changes will likely be tweaked further as we do more DPS testing as we implement the changes and incorporate player feedback.)

Stalwart Defender

Stand Fast: When activated you also gain +4 bonus on all saves for 20 seconds.

Last Stand: The passive portion of the enhancement is improved to be: +2 Constitution, +2 Strength, +10 Physical Resistance Rating, +10 Magical Resistance Rating, and +2 to the DCS of all Tactical Feats.

Vanguard

Fix the bug with the DC of Shield Charge.

Kensai

Core Abilities

Strike with No Thought: You also gain a +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier.

Power Surge: You gain +8 Psionic bonus to all attributes for 60 seconds. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki

Alacrity:

+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats



Tier One

Action Boost:
Attack Boost now adds +4/+6/+8 to hit and damage for 20 seconds.
Fix the bug where the 3rd Haste Boost says it lasts 30 seconds.

Reed In the Wind: Cooldown is reduced to 15 seconds. Damage increased to +1/+2/+3[W].

Tier Two

Improved Dodge AP cost changed to 1/1/1.
Improved Dodge now has a multi-selector.
Improved Defense: +2/+4/+6 Physical Resistance Rating.

Weapon Meditation is removed.

Ascetic Training:
Conditioning changed to +1/2/3 Fortitude Saves, +5/+10+15 Hit Points, +5/+10+15 Fortification

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

Tier Three

Critical Accuracy changed to Critical Mastery.
Add Critical Mastery: +1/2/3 bonus to critical damage and to confirm critical hits.

Improved Mobility removed.
Add Athletic Mastery: +1/+2/+3 Maximum Dexterity Bonus and Dodge Cap, -1/-2/-3 Armor Check Penalty. Works in any armor.

Shattering Strike: Cooldown reduced to 10 seconds, Fortification loss no longer has a saving throw. No longer requires Weapon Mediation.

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

Tier Four

Critical Damage removed as it was combined into the tier three Critical Mastery.

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

New: Strike at the Heart: Your weapon attacks have the Improved Destruction effect.

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows. Requirement changed to Weapon Focus.

(We are discussing the possibility of another enhancement in this tier that we are not ready to reveal.)

Tier Five

A Good Death: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds. Extra damage now activates if target is below 30% health. Extra damage scales with Melee Power. Requirements are removed.

One with the Blade: You also gain, as part of the passive bonus, +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. Requirements are removed.

Deadly Strike: No longer requires an action boost. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds. Change the on vorpal ability to cause an extra 500 damage which scales with 400% melee power.

New: Weapon Master: You gain +3 to hit and damage with all weapons.

Sev~

This is probally a dumb question but with any of these changes be implemented on to lamania before launching to live worlds? Because if you have expierenced players making builds they know are very strong, they could find a glitch within them or see if things are too weak, too powerful.

[Dungeoner49]

Really?! Like really really?
How many times are you going to tweak around with fighter? I've lost count of how many times you have messed with this class...

Meanwhile, classes that people want to play that are falling way behind like wizard, arti, druid get left in the dust AGAIN...

Any hope for some tweaking of these classes?

Aye, while I don't typically make multiclassed or self-heal-less charas such as fighters, they too need an update on their enhancements just like every other tree and class. I do too however think that arti's really need some serious increase in viability in epics as most of their damage comes from their rune arms which have saves that epic critters will almost always make on EE and to a slightly lesser extent EH difficulties. My 1st life lv 28 per shot bow based pure elven ranger has about 5x the lethality and 3.x the surviablility of my 1st life lv 25 repeater only pure warforged artificer when saves are involved. I know for a fact that while both repeaters and single target rune arms are devastating at low level to mid levels, but they lack the proper scaling that allows them to be good at high to epic levels as in EE Cabal for One I was barely shaving off a milimeter of a hobgoblins health on with 3 full repeater volleys or a full rune arm charge (its been 4+ months so I don't remember what rune arm) where my ranger is able to deal more than enough damage to kill a small squad while kiting at the top of ladder platform at the north end of the dungeon by myself in around 30 seconds or less thanks to the following enhancements, ED, and sneak damage from deepwood stalker: Pin, merciful shot, headshot, sniper shot, and " That annoying Skyrim Patella Meme". I also remember that I cried myself to sleep due to my lack of effective damage output after I finished Cabal with my artificer that night.

[Wizza]

Some Melee Power, some more MP, Crit multiplier and hey, an enhancement that gives you more melee power. Some PRR and done.

Great classes balances.

[Eth]

Some Melee Power, some more MP, Crit multiplier and hey, an enhancement that gives you more melee power. Some PRR and done.

Great classes balances.

Missed knockdown immunity and run speed though.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

after looking at the numbers some more, i am now absolutely BEGGING you guys to just copy some code and put a dm/kta variant in this tree. i dont care what stat it uses, or whether it adds directly to damage or to strength.

this would make a bf pure fighter work, and i really want to play one.

[Tilomere]

I've known for a long time that the majority of players want to fulfill a fantasy over power. But they don't want to feel bad doing so. For fighters, the main dps fantasy is of an old Cetus-type build cleaving and killing things in LD with special attacks.

However, LD is now a poor fit for an end game fighter. New weapons are all base critical profile with magical effects, making synergy with Lay Waste - Momentum Swing poor, which combined with the improved critical nerf to these same abilities makes the delay in auto attacking to use them a net loss of dps.

In addition, with so much melee power in LD and epic levels already, the added effectiveness of adding more melee power through enhancements greatly diminishes in epics. Blitzed fighter builds have 200 melee power for 3x damage, so the 30 MP in Kensai only represents 10% more physical dps, or 5% after on-hit effects which isn't significant.

The net result of these two effects is a "feel bad" when you think of how much better in LD the fully effective and never watered down extra attacks from tempest, sneak attack damage from rogue, light damage from paladin, or eye of the storm damage from barb would be.

One thematic solution, would be to merge One with the Blade with Keen Edge, and a new T5 Enhancement multi-selector for permanent Haste or Damage Boost which stacks with other non-similar action boosts. As % damage increases for different types of combat (auto attack/special attack), this would allow fighters to better have that LD fantasy and synergy with LD without feeling as watered down. In addition, it will fix the fantasy of all non-humans sucking since they can't dual boost.





Ultimate build in the game? Don't you think that's a little presumptuous?

No, not really. And even if it is, it doesn't mean it's not right. :)

[Elfishski]

Some critical profile enhancements, more raw damage (base damage, plus melee power etc), etc. It's well... exactly the same as every other revamped enhancement tree. Totally overpowered against all content in the game; whether or not it's "competitive with tempest" is really the wrong question.

Also opens up even more broken multiclass options that will push the envelope even further in terms of killing things even faster that already die too fast, and an extra order of magnitude difference at end game to unoptimized builds, making it even more impossible to have content that's interesting and balanced against character power.

Oh well, no other way forward from here in terms of productive suggestions after all the other enhancement passes, full monty haul ahead...

[Viciouspika]

Almost every class has at least one tree that assists with healing from Massive temp Hit points for Warlocks to Blood strength for Barbarians. The Specialists and Casters get bonuses to their wands and scrolls. For the Fighter, I was thinking something similar to the Bonuses to wands and Scrolls. I Call it Good to the Last Drop: for 1 or 2 action points, cure or repair pots are 25%, 50%, and 75% more effective. Make it a Tier 5 ability. Because by the time you can take a Tier 5 ability, you need to be 12 level character and have 5 levels of Fighter. Level 12 is also the point that cure serious and repair serious pots become less effective to the point of drinking and hoping someone can hjeals me pls.

Divine Might and Know the Angles last for two minutes each iirc. Make Power Surge have a similar duration or a tiered ability that allows fighter to extend burst damage, attack speed by 10 sec, 20 seconds, and 30 seconds, or 5 seconds, 10 seconds, and 15 seconds.

Just My 2 Cents.

[Allorian]

With making changes to the Kensai tree, what about the fighter feats, you know the ones only fighters can take like weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon focus, Greater Weapon Specialization and Superior weapon focus? they need a bit of a change to be useful for fighters because we know that +1 to hit and +2 to damage really ain't much these days with the way to hit and AC was changed here a while back and the HP of monsters nowadays. I am sure that everyone will agree that the value of these feats is meager at best, changing these is another way of improving fighters.

Feats as they are now:

Weapon Focus: +1 to hit.
Weapon Specialization +2 to damage
Greater Weapon Focus +1 additional (total +2 to hit)
Greater Weapon Specialization +2 to damage (Additional so +4)
Superior Weapon Focus +1 to hit additional (+3 total)

Proposed changes:

Weapon Focus: +5% or +5 to hit.
Weapon Specialization +4 to damage or +6 with a two handed weapon
Greater Weapon Focus +5% or +5 to hit additional (total +10% or +10)
Greater Weapon Specialization +4 to damage or +6 with a two handed weapon (Additional so +8 or +12 total two handed)
Superior Weapon Focus +5% or +5 to hit additional (+15% or +15 total)

This is a good start, I am sure there are varying opinions about this but having played a fighter with splashed levels of other classes for the last 7 years or so in DDO, I do have an idea of what I am talking about. I do like the Kensai changes so far, I am sure it will undergo some more changes before it is street ready, lets look at the fighter feats guys. It would be helpful if people who actually play fighters to put in some input into changes for fighter feats. Remember, Fighters are supposed to be the kings of battle, not a starting class that people play until that learn how DDO is played they simply make another character that is another class or TR them into something that think will be more useful. This is our chance to make fighters a viable class again for everyone.



Thx Guys
Glam of Sarlona

[Clemeit]

I was hoping to see more on the side of defensive bonuses... Immunity to knockdown, PRR/MRR bonuses, maybe some sort of healing? I've played barbarian, and I really enjoy the balance of damage and healing they have to offer. I can dish out top tier raw damage on my barb, while never needing to wait for a healer. Does this really make sense then, that a fighter doesn't have more survivability options than a barbarian?

I play a vanguard fighter. Next to a S&B paladin, that should be as "tanky" as one can go. And yet the survivability isn't nearly that of a barbarian (the damage isn't nearly that of a barbarian, either).

People complain that melees already do too much damage. What they don't realize is that, unless melees do 3x more damage than a caster, many melees are going to continue to get wrecked in a lot of legendary elite content. I watched as a necrotic wizard insta-killed something like 95% of all the mobs in LH Tempest Spine, while I was stuck having to get right up in the action - all the while being nearly 4 shot by all the mobs in there (that's with displace and 240 PRR). In contrast, my warlock seems to be able to absorb limitless amounts of damage, being able to simply heal to full health with 1 heal. And my extremely squishy 80 PRR Shuricannon build died only once or twice that entire life, epics included - I could just stand at the limit of range of sight and snipe away.

But fighters... they have to get face to face with quad-damage, true seeing, bonus force damage champions. And what abilities do we have to heal through that damage? Unless you want to gimp your damage completely, you're left with very few options.

Make the Heal Skill a fighter class skill would be a start. And what about giving a bonus to heal amp at every, say, 5th fighter level. Maybe give fighters something similar to barbarian's Blood Strength... Anything??

[Silverleafeon]

If fighter gets temp hp/whatever it should probably be in the SD tweaks, and they actually do have a "healing" capstone option:


Last Stand: Passive: You gain +2 Constitution and +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats. Shield Action Boost: Your gain +100% Maximum hit points, +50 Physical Resistance Rating, and On Attacked: You are healed for 1d10 positive energy healing. This Action Boost does not share a cooldown with other Action Boost abilities, and can be used while helpless. (Cooldown: 3 minutes.)

Unfortunately, the 3 minute cooldown is serious drawback, which makes a Pally 4 / Fighter 16 build more attractive in many ways.

Which is why I and others say that core 12, 18, and capstone in SD is very blah (improved or not).
The rest of the tree is basically pretty good, and there are a lot of variations of fixes available.

Actually compare to Pally capstone:


Eternal Defender: Passive: You gain +2 Charisma, +2 Constitution, + 10 to Physical and Magical Resistance Rating and your range of unconsciousness extends by 40 hitpoints.
Toggle: While Eternal Defender is active, if you drop below 0 hit points but are not killed, two uses of Turn Undead are immediately expended and you receive a reactive heal for 250 points of Positive Energy healing.
Passive: You gain +5 to Physical and Magical Resistance Rating.


Given the huge incapacitated range of greensteel + thunderhelm ring bonuses, this is a significant always on option.


So technically if you changed the SD capstone to read:


Last Stand: The passive portion of the enhancement is improved to be: +2 Constitution, +2 Strength, and +2 to the DCS of all Tactical Feats. Shield Capstone Toggle: Your gain +25~100% Maximum hit points, +10~50 Physical Resistance Rating & MMR, and On Attacked: You are healed for 1d10 positive energy healing.

That would be more appropriate given the lesser dps, but simply lowering the cooldown to 30 seconds would allow limited access to the capstone in more appropriate choices.


Not to say that other improvements options should be overlooked, but capstone is good place to start.

[Qhualor]

I was hoping to see more on the side of defensive bonuses... Immunity to knockdown, PRR/MRR bonuses, maybe some sort of healing? I've played barbarian, and I really enjoy the balance of damage and healing they have to offer. I can dish out top tier raw damage on my barb, while never needing to wait for a healer. Does this really make sense then, that a fighter doesn't have more survivability options than a barbarian?

I play a vanguard fighter. Next to a S&B paladin, that should be as "tanky" as one can go. And yet the survivability isn't nearly that of a barbarian (the damage isn't nearly that of a barbarian, either).

People complain that melees already do too much damage. What they don't realize is that, unless melees do 3x more damage than a caster, many melees are going to continue to get wrecked in a lot of legendary elite content. I watched as a necrotic wizard insta-killed something like 95% of all the mobs in LH Tempest Spine, while I was stuck having to get right up in the action - all the while being nearly 4 shot by all the mobs in there (that's with displace and 240 PRR). In contrast, my warlock seems to be able to absorb limitless amounts of damage, being able to simply heal to full health with 1 heal. And my extremely squishy 80 PRR Shuricannon build died only once or twice that entire life, epics included - I could just stand at the limit of range of sight and snipe away.

But fighters... they have to get face to face with quad-damage, true seeing, bonus force damage champions. And what abilities do we have to heal through that damage? Unless you want to gimp your damage completely, you're left with very few options.

Make the Heal Skill a fighter class skill would be a start. And what about giving a bonus to heal amp at every, say, 5th fighter level. Maybe give fighters something similar to barbarian's Blood Strength... Anything??

fighters get free feats that can increase their PRR if you choose instead of the free tactical DC feats. or you could mix it up increasing your tactical and PRR. having reliable tactical DCs and utilizing those tactics helps in survivability and is another layer of defense. barbarian self healing in heroics is OP, but so isn't a great many other things. potions are mostly good enough for most heroics if you combine tactical play, teamwork, smart play and prepared for all types of battle. in epics fighters actually have an easier time to heal with Cocoon/Consecrated Ground since they don't have to worry about rage like a barbarian. LD is a great destiny for fighters that offer a variety of tactics, defense and dps all in one.

I leveled my fighter up as a Vanguard and he was nearly untouchable, except against Abishai and anything that deals element damage, until I got into epics. more touchable, but still very much survivable. any fighter should be more survivable than a barb in the sense of defense with all things being equal. a barbarian should be dealing a lot more damage, but the balance is supposed to be that they are glass cannons. Sev isn't pushing fighters to be all about dps, but it doesn't mean he thinks they should be weak dps either. he believes fighters should be more than dps and utilizing their tactical abilities, having access to high PRR with a hint of teamwork. I'm not quoting him by the way. that's just the impression ive gotten from him with all the back and forth talks.

it doesn't matter if melees do 100 damage or 1 million damage. the advantage any ranged class has is distance fighting. ive complained myself quite a few times that mobs generally die too fast before a melee gets to the mobs. it is quite annoying, especially when you push your clickies getting ready to do battle and than one dies to FoD/Destructed, the other is pew pewed in 3 seconds and just as you land a second hit on the last mob it goes down too. archers/casters attack when mobs are in sight and you try to grab their agro, but they just run right by you. aside form all that, melees do deal a lot of damage but I think mobs need a boost not melees to better balance it out. Legendary damage is something that isn't working the way the devs had hoped it would. the balance isn't working very well there. and finally, healing from casters has been said many times over the years that its unnecessarily too high. that's a totally separate issue that I would like to see changed some day.

to go into a little more detail about the above, this is the problem right now with the game. when something is overpowered, than something else is brought up to that level of power to catch up. power creep has always existed in DDO, but I think its gotten a little out of hand the past couple years. ever since barbs have been able to self heal, its been expected that every melee class be able to self heal too. there were many that grumbled that rogues didn't get self healing and I'm seeing in this thread too that many are looking for the same thing.

the options are there, though I have disagreed that fighters should be expected to cast heals when they are not a casting class. pots are normally fine in heroics and Cocoon/Consecrated ground are available in epics. fighters with really good defenses, using their tactical abilities, playing smart, really good dps and solid healing are all forms of survivability. no gimping needed to be able to do all that.

what is the Heal skill going to do for a fighter? more hit points when they rest at a shrine. sure it adds to positive spell power for cure wounds and heal, but you have to multi class for those. making it a full point isn't going to really do anything for them. I am rather surprised there isn't some heal amp in the trees. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but lets not forget about our forged friends that might want repair amp instead.

[janave]

--------------------------------------
Conclusion: build seems pretty supreme to me, but everyone will still ask for more fighter dps. Why? Because this doesn't fit their LD fantasy.

So, devs should balance around abuse of best scaling ED abilities? Because in that case a melee variant of Slayer Arrow, and Manyshot is due. If only they had a fix for the 4-5 uber-builds pre 22, they could have saved years of work.

I dont think you can call an LD fantasy that some of us actually want to play a Fighter with 20 levels of, well, Fighter. Id personally play in a mix of EDs, Crusader/Avatar/LD/ and maybe even Fury if i could somehow build for enough defense outside the Defender stance.

If we need 7 warlock and 3 barb levels to play the ultimate Fighter, i dont think we can call that a Fighter pass, it's more of a sad example of how much broken warlock is.


Honestly, if all they do is pack the '+1 crit multi' in the capstone, and put that 'heal pot effectiveness' into a t4/t5, i will log on to play my Fighter once in a while. I wouldn’t consider it a great pass tho.

[FlaviusMaximus]

I like the changes that have been proposed. The boost all Power Surge and the crit enhancements not being at core 18 or 20 open up a lot of build possibilities, and for me, build possibilities are what make this game interesting.

Although it is probably not something I would benefit from personally, Fighter 18 could use a bit more oomph for those who like to go deep into single classes. Perhaps something should be added there, but I don't believe anything should be moved out of its current spot to bolster it.

[Selvera]

In response to some of the messages above, fighters should NOT get more healing, they should not get self heals, they should not get wand/scroll mastery, they should not get the heal skill. Healing amp... maybe they should get that. Not having healing is now one of the defining characteristics of a fighter. On a fighter you can get (and should be able to get) much better PRR/MRR then other classes, especially if you go a S+B fighter (tower shield mastery is good and should be great). You should also have good/great damage (should be comparable to barbarian and better then paladin) and good/great HP as well (Should be comparable to barbarian and paladin), but all that greatness comes with a drawback, which is healing (and also UMD, fighters are not magical nor divine in any way).

Surprise! There's about half the classes in the game that can heal your fighter! Given that PRR/MRR makes healing more powerful (you gain more EHP), having the high PRR/MRR class not have healing means that teamwork is needed to make the strongest party. I am, and always will be an advocate of teamwork in an MMO, especially one based of D&D. Please don't give fighters healing, just if you see someone with a sword beside their name in your party, toss them a heal when they drop to half.

[Lauf]

I am, and always will be an advocate of teamwork in an MMO, especially one based of D&D. Please don't give fighters healing, just if you see someone with a sword beside their name in your party, toss them a heal when they drop to half.


while I agree with you in principle, and was against having extensive healing abilities added to pretty much any class outside of divines and druids, the sad fact of the matter is that pretty much all classes EXCEPT fighter can now effectively heal.
in other words - that ship has sailed. questing in DDO is no longer a group exercise, though grouping does make quests easier.
there's little point in singling out fighters to be the one class who can't support itself, to any extent.
at the very least the effectiveness of chugging pots should be increased significantly.

[Phil7]

Given the huge incapacitated range of greensteel + thunderhelm ring bonuses, this is a significant always on option.


I know about the Ward Token (ring from Fire on Thunderpeaks), but what is this bonus from greensteels that you are talking about? Do the new legendary greensteels extend your range of unconsciousness?

[IronClan]

Meh don't want to derail a fighter thread with bs about broken tree builds that they will never fix anyway. So nm all that...

Anyway, Sev any thoughts on adding a Crit range into Fighter Vanguard so they can keep up with Paladins and still be able to take Shield rush?

Right now:
Paladin gets multiplier and crit range from HS so can choose any T5's as a vanguard
Fighter gets multiplier from core 6 of kensei... okay fair enough 11 points required but to get Crit Range must take T5 Kensei and can't access shield rush.

This is easily fixed by putting an identical non stacking crit range into Vanguard T5.

I would really like to see some considerations made in Fighter Vanguard for the fact that paladin is so much better, better self healing, better DPS while being able to access Vanguard T5's, access to better Cleaves than a fighter... A paladin can cleave with a 3W and 5W where a Fighter only has access to 1W and 3W. To say nothing of the advantage in saves.

My thoughts were to make Fighter Vanguard pack more of DPS wallop as the tradeoff for not having Paladin Saves and heals. I would love to see the alacrity in the cores replaced by Melee power (to make them feel different, and also to add at least one build into the game (well intentional build) that is going for big damage over spamming affixes and procs as fast as possible.

Second and related point: any thoughts on buffing Sword and Board? After you reversed Armor up it's just not worth doing by a lot. Lam kobold tests show that a Evasion (same benefit as a shield) Ranger is killing stuff in about a minute or less while S&B which actually has worse mitigation* takes two minutes or longer.

* the 35-ish PRR you get from heavy armor and shield, halves your DPS, for only a small increase in mitigation over a light armored ranger, but sucks up all that dodge miss chance, meanwhile evasion costs no DPS or dodge miss chance.

[Silverleafeon]

Item:

http://ddowiki.com/images/Ward_Token.png


Not sure if it stacks but Holding on does not list a bonus type?


Legendary Superior Focus of Positive Energy Legendary Pure Material Essence Legendary Flawless Gem of Opposition

Tier I: +128 Unconsciousness Range, 16 healing every 10 seconds (Enhancement)

Tier II: +64 Unconsciousness Range, 8 healing every 10 seconds (Insight)

Tier III: +32 Unconsciousness Range, 4 healing every 10 seconds (Quality)



Anyway, should be able to get to dying at -275 hit points.

But the 28 healing every 10 seconds combined with Primal fast healing twist and ED fast healing past life options would be pretty good when you are sitting at over 200 AC and over 200 PPR?

[Phil7]

Item:

http://ddowiki.com/images/Ward_Token.png


Not sure if it stacks but Holding on does not list a bonus type?


Legendary Superior Focus of Positive Energy Legendary Pure Material Essence Legendary Flawless Gem of Opposition

Tier I: +128 Unconsciousness Range, 16 healing every 10 seconds (Enhancement)

Tier II: +64 Unconsciousness Range, 8 healing every 10 seconds (Insight)

Tier III: +32 Unconsciousness Range, 4 healing every 10 seconds (Quality)



Anyway, should be able to get to dying at -275 hit points.

But the 28 healing every 10 seconds combined with Primal fast healing twist and ED fast healing past life options would be pretty good when you are sitting at over 200 AC and over 200 PPR?

there are more bonuses for unconscious hp, I added a few of them on the wiki.
But I like the way u think :) http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Gauntlets_of_Immortality add this aswell

[Grailhawk]

Fighters should have more choices for customization than other classes that's one of there things they get more feat than any other class and can select from a much wider selection than even other classes with bonus feat.

To that end I believe that at fighter level one, fighters should get a choice of what there third tree is:
W&S: Vanguard
SWF: Swashbuckler
TWF: Tempest
THF: Frenzied Berserker
Ranged: Deepwood Stalker

If this can only be made to work if character level one is fighter that works. We know it's possible for classes to share trees let's use that to give fighters more options.

Just a thought to address the one issue I have with the fighter pass, which is fighters only have one good DPS tree unless they go weapon and shield which doesn't fit my very of a fighter; fighters should be able to master whatever combat style they choose to pursue.

[Hipparan]

Fighters should have more choices for customization than other classes that's one of there things they get more feat than any other class and can select from a much wider selection than even other classes with bonus feat.

To that end I believe that at fighter level one, fighters should get a choice of what there third tree is:
W&S: Vanguard
SWF: Swashbuckler
TWF: Tempest
THF: Frenzied Berserker
Ranged: Deepwood Stalker

If this can only be made to work if character level one is fighter that works. We know it's possible for classes to share trees let's use that to give fighters more options.

Just a thought to address the one issue I have with the fighter pass, which is fighters only have one good DPS tree unless they go weapon and shield which doesn't fit my very of a fighter; fighters should be able to master whatever combat style they choose to pursue.

I actually really like this idea, but I worry about how it would be implemented within the coding, and also I am not sure how Frenzied Berserker's Rage-related enhancements would work with Fighters. Also, the trees would have to be edited so that the level requirements wouldn't be tied to the original classes.

[Vulkoorex]

How about a feat per level after L12 (L12-20)?
Basically it would mean an extra 4 fighter feats.

[Tilomere]

How about a single epic fighter feat. 1/2 damage per fighter level added to all 1H/2H attacks. This gives them something to scale with in LD.

[Clemeit]

fighters get free feats that can increase their PRR if you choose instead of the free tactical DC feats. or you could mix it up increasing your tactical and PRR. having reliable tactical DCs and utilizing those tactics helps in survivability and is another layer of defense.

I took 3 of the fighter tactics feats, and 2 of the fighter defensive feats. I sit at 242 PRR, and a 121 Stunning Shield DC.
The problem with PRR is that it has greatly diminishing returns. My 242 fighter PRR is barely any better than my barbarian's 190 PRR. We're looking at a 5% increased mitigation, in favor a fighter. That's nothing.
The problem with high Stunning DCs, is the stupidly high mob AC in LEs. Hit dire charge and I'd be lucky to hit 70% of the mobs nearby. The other 30% are going to two-shot me while I stand in their midst.


in epics fighters actually have an easier time to heal with Cocoon/Consecrated Ground since they don't have to worry about rage like a barbarian. LD is a great destiny for fighters that offer a variety of tactics, defense and dps all in one.

I agree: consecrated ground is an excellent option for fighters. But might I point out that barbarians can take full advantage of Consecration while raged.


I leveled my fighter up as a Vanguard and he was nearly untouchable, except against Abishai and anything that deals element damage, until I got into epics. more touchable, but still very much survivable.

Vanguard does very well in heroics, but the slight increase in damage mitigation is not enough to make up for the inferior DPS when compared to barbarians. A barbarian's supreme cleave might very well 1-shot every nearby mobs in heroics.
Fighter's saves are, generally, pretty awful. Abashai and other elemental-attack based mobs often wreck my fighter, especially champions in Epic Elite. 100 MRR just doesn't cut it. My warlock has ~140 MRR, with many elemental damage absorbing items, things my fighter simply cant afford to take advantage of.


a barbarian should be dealing a lot more damage, but the balance is supposed to be that they are glass cannons.

Not from my experience. Blood Strength on a barbarian led to me almost never having to stop to heal, or wait for a healer (do those actually exist any more?). A single cleave could take me from dangerously low health to full again.
Furthermore, my barbarian had around 190 PRR, just under the mitigation seen by my vanguard's 242 PRR.


Sev isn't pushing fighters to be all about dps, but it doesn't mean he thinks they should be weak dps either. he believes fighters should be more than dps and utilizing their tactical abilities, having access to high PRR with a hint of teamwork. I'm not quoting him by the way. that's just the impression ive gotten from him with all the back and forth talks.

Don't get me wrong: I don't mean for fighters to be the do-all, end-all class. But I think the choice is quite clear to many, as it is with me: it's just easier to play either a warlock or a barbarian. Fighters just aren't there yet.


Legendary damage is something that isn't working the way the devs had hoped it would. the balance isn't working very well there. and finally, healing from casters has been said many times over the years that its unnecessarily too high. that's a totally separate issue that I would like to see changed some day.

Agreed. My issue is that, in both epic and legendary difficulties, Casual, Normal, and Hard are way too easy. At the very least, hard needs a massive increase in difficulty. The gap between hard and elite difficulties is way too prominent.


ever since barbs have been able to self heal, its been expected that every melee class be able to self heal too. there were many that grumbled that rogues didn't get self healing and I'm seeing in this thread too that many are looking for the same thing.

This, this, and this! I've been complaining for a long time that melees should NOT be able to self heal to the level they can. My first character, 7 long years ago, was a cleric. This was back when almost no group started without a healer. A healer healed, a barbarian smashed, a fighter tanked, a rogue sneaked, a ranger ranged, and a wizard blasted orange-names. When Epic Destinies were introduced, it really blurred the lines between what classes could do. Now you have barbarians healing, and clerics fighting with axes... And when Blood Strength was introduced to the barbarian tree, it just really put it over the top.
Now it's almost always *expected* of you to be self-sufficient. If that's the way this game wants to progress, then fine. I won't be happy about it, but so be it. However, if that's what they want to do, then we should be seeing abilities similar to a barbarian's Blood Strength be popping up in every melee tree.


the options are there, though I have disagreed that fighters should be expected to cast heals when they are not a casting class. pots are normally fine in heroics and Cocoon/Consecrated ground are available in epics. fighters with really good defenses, using their tactical abilities, playing smart, really good dps and solid healing are all forms of survivability. no gimping needed to be able to do all that.

Solid defense and a solid offense will only keep you alive 10% longer than the next character provided that you can't heal. As for playing smart... if that means running in an out of fights while casters take all the agro - which is what I spend much of my time doing - then wow, is this really the fighter class we are talking about here? The fighter is supposed to be more survivable than casters. But now-a-days, roll up a fighter and a Blade Forged Warlock, and tell me which is more survivable.


I am rather surprised there isn't some heal amp in the trees.

Some innate heal amp would be appropriate, unless they wanted to add it as one of those, "+1% Heal amp for every point spent in this tree." Either of which I'd be happy with.

[Clemeit]

In response to some of the messages above, fighters should NOT get more healing, they should not get self heals, they should not get wand/scroll mastery, they should not get the heal skill. Healing amp... maybe they should get that. Not having healing is now one of the defining characteristics of a fighter. On a fighter you can get (and should be able to get) much better PRR/MRR then other classes, especially if you go a S+B fighter (tower shield mastery is good and should be great). You should also have good/great damage (should be comparable to barbarian and better then paladin) and good/great HP as well (Should be comparable to barbarian and paladin), but all that greatness comes with a drawback, which is healing (and also UMD, fighters are not magical nor divine in any way).

My fighter has 242 PRR. My barbarian had 190 PRR. My warlock has 174 PRR.

So my fighter has ~60 more PRR than my other self-healing classes. +60 PRR equates to a whopping 6% increase in damage reduction! Yay! I can literally survive one additional hit from a non-champion ranger NPC in Epic Hard.

So unless fighters get a completely different damage mitigation equation that runs off of PRR, they simply don't have the sort of advantage that you imply.

[HaltirithII]

Not to derail a Kensai specific thread, but there are those of us who play fighters yet don't like playing the "clickie cooldown" game, who don't particularly care for boosts or tactics. There's still no specific ENs for TWF or THF. The previous changes to SD were good in that it removed a lot of shield-specific ENs, but there could be (and should be IMO) more for the TWF and THF fighters. I've always asserted that fighters are (arguably) the most flexible class, and yet we seem pigeon-holed by the ENs into being "specialists" (kensai) focusing on specific classes of weapons or "sword & board" - no TWF, no THF, and no "bowmen" (though, yes, the case can be made that if you're going to focus on using a bow, be a ranger, but that is besides the point). I'm not suggesting there be a fighter tempest or arcane archer EN lines, per se, but there are so many possible builds with fighter (DEX based, STR based, INT based, THW, TWF, SWF, etc.) the current ENs just feel limiting.

But no one listens to Zathras...
;)

Ok, sorry to sound like an old school curmudgeon, but... since I'm almost 55 and have been playing D & D since it's inception as a sheet of graph paper, a paperback pamphlet and a handful of oddly shaped dice in a clear, plastic bag... that's sort of what I am, so be it.
The whole point of separate classes was to allow for individual playing styles based on a players' personal interests and to encourage TEAM PLAY !! i.e. a purpose for everyone and everyone with a purpose... to steal a phrase.
This version of "The" game, states, for example, that the Ranger is the best at using a bow and at two weapon fighting.
Which means better than other classes at those 2 things. Rangers are Specialists, just like Rogues, Bards, Druids, etc.
Yet there are always a bunch of players that want to .... what's the current phrase?..."nerf" the Ranger by giving other classes ranger skills, like TWF... or equal ability with bows.
Traditionally, the fighter class was the "base" class on which you built a multi-class, by adding Magic User, Cleric, Thief, eventually leading up to a Specialist Class, i.e. Ranger, or Paladin. You needed 10 levs of Fighter AND 10 Levs of Magic User to make a Lev 1 Ranger. Or 10 Levs of Fighter plus 10 Levs of Cleric to make a Lev 1 Paladin, etc.
The fighter, Traditionally was most often a "sword and boarder", or "axe and boarder", depending on racial preference, or just plain player choice. Occasionally, there's be a 2-handed fighter, but mostly that was played by Barbarians.
The fighter is a great class in it's own right, with skill sets unique to itself, such as a balance between offense and defense. without loss of ability in either; other classes have to make choices between the two, while fighters get the best armors, use of shields without loss of offensive power and the use of ANY weapon in the game,{aside from racial specific weaponry, of course}.
I have no issue with doing fighter-class specific things to ramp up the class and make it stay equal with the other classes, just not at the expense of watering down the other Classes.
If you want to play a Fighter, then PLAY a fighter and play it well, instead of trying to turn it into "Everyman".
Doing so lessens the class, minimizes the value of the other classes and misses the whole Team play Spirit of the game we all love.
That's the most I've ever written on this or any Forum and I realize lot's of y'all probably won't agree with me... but enough will that I felt our viewpoint deserved a say-so too.
Thanks for "listening" and enjoy the game.
As for the Developers; I think they're doing a fine job, nobody's perfect, but they do keep trying... and I darn sure couldn't do what they do... so Kudos to them from an "old school curmudgeon".. :)

[Nuclear_Elvis]

while I agree with you in principle, and was against having extensive healing abilities added to pretty much any class outside of divines and druids, the sad fact of the matter is that pretty much all classes EXCEPT fighter can now effectively heal.
in other words - that ship has sailed. questing in DDO is no longer a group exercise, though grouping does make quests easier.
there's little point in singling out fighters to be the one class who can't support itself, to any extent.
at the very least the effectiveness of chugging pots should be increased significantly.

The Ship hasn't sailed. Fighter Class currently does not have a Healing effect or boost, and shouldn't (except for, perhaps - Healing Amp boost or scaled boosts).

As stated prior, Fighters must have greater Tactics and/or defensive capabilities to control their opponents.

Questing still is a Group opportunity, and no one is forcing you to Solo. If you choose to Solo, you accept risk. If you build a Fighter, you accept the risks associated with that Class. If you build a Fighter and solo in a dungeon where great amounts of damage are expected in a rapid period, you accept risk.

The risk/reward ratio needs to regain some prominence in this game, along with being a more vocal part of our conversation about the Way Ahead for this and future Classes.

[Woyeshay]

Although I think the fighter class does need a bit of tinkering with, please try to make the changes all at once and not spread out. If you know what I mean.

[acdcrocks]

Fighters should have more choices for customization than other classes that's one of there things they get more feat than any other class and can select from a much wider selection than even other classes with bonus feat.

To that end I believe that at fighter level one, fighters should get a choice of what there third tree is:
W&S: Vanguard
SWF: Swashbuckler
TWF: Tempest
THF: Frenzied Berserker
Ranged: Deepwood Stalker

If this can only be made to work if character level one is fighter that works. We know it's possible for classes to share trees let's use that to give fighters more options.

Just a thought to address the one issue I have with the fighter pass, which is fighters only have one good DPS tree unless they go weapon and shield which doesn't fit my very of a fighter; fighters should be able to master whatever combat style they choose to pursue.

Awesome idea! Please do this Turbine!

[Grailhawk]

I actually really like this idea, but I worry about how it would be implemented within the coding, and also I am not sure how Frenzied Berserker's Rage-related enhancements would work with Fighters. Also, the trees would have to be edited so that the level requirements wouldn't be tied to the original classes.

Ideally this wouldn't have to reuse existing trees. The flaw with using existing trees is most clear when looking at THF, and Ranged. There aren't any clearly defined THF, or Ranged trees that fit fighter well unlike Swashbuckler, Tempest, and Vanguard which are good fits and very much associated with a fighting style.

[Lauf]

Fighters should have more choices for customization than other classes that's one of there things they get more feat than any other class and can select from a much wider selection than even other classes with bonus feat.

To that end I believe that at fighter level one, fighters should get a choice of what there third tree is:
W&S: Vanguard
SWF: Swashbuckler
TWF: Tempest
THF: Frenzied Berserker
Ranged: Deepwood Stalker

If this can only be made to work if character level one is fighter that works. We know it's possible for classes to share trees let's use that to give fighters more options.

Just a thought to address the one issue I have with the fighter pass, which is fighters only have one good DPS tree unless they go weapon and shield which doesn't fit my very of a fighter; fighters should be able to master whatever combat style they choose to pursue.

I like this idea, +1

[Phil7]

So unless fighters get a completely different damage mitigation equation that runs off of PRR, they simply don't have the sort of advantage that you imply.

Yes it is indeed annoying to add so much PRR and earn so little out of it. To run around with 100 more PRR than the guy next to you and still feel less survivable. Cocoon works fine for my Fighter, but I wouldnt mind a unique Fighter-only heal.

My advice to Turbine is: try to make each class a bit more unique, just like you did with the Warlock. No other class has survivability through temporary hit points and aoe magical-cleaves. Instead of giving us the same things in every Enhancement Tree (Melee power/doublestrike/PRR etc.), try to make new unique core enhancements or high lvl-class only feats.
PRR is not worth investing in after a point, but our Paladins/Fighters are meant to be the best tanks. So give them new unique tank-related capstones/high lvl feats, that are only accesible to them (for example, something like perma Thick Skinned (-25% dmg) if wearing heavy armor and shield, as capstone).
This way you will have to invest in a tank-oriented tree to make a real tank, instead of throwing in a little bit of everything in every class.
I mean seriously, take a look at all the capstones! In the end they all seem the same... +xPRR +y Melee/Ranged Power +zSpell Power

And for those who need a kick of imagination to grasp what I'm trying to say:
Imagine Manyshot being a ranger only capstone. Where you must be level 20 ranger to access Manyshot. A unique ability granted only to the ranger. That is a real capstone imo and not just the typical +20melee/ranged power.

Or imagine a Bard having a new upgraded version of Hold Monster Mass, granted only to a level 20 pure Bard. That means build diversity and role playing and not a Warlock who can CC/Heal/Kill/Buff and Tank everything.

And Turbine, you already showed us that you can do it when you released the Epic Destinies. The imagination that you put into them, the diversity and the feeling of something unique for each Destiny is the proof. Turning into a Tree of Destruction, causing enemies to be devoured by their own shadow and making them explode, erasing enemies from the multiverse, drinking Tee with the Queen and so on.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

How about Power Surge is a stacking +1 to each ability for every 2 fighter levels? So a pure level 20 fighter would get a +10 each stat. (And I don't even want to mention the synergy of a pure fighters need for silver flame healing pots and this ability!)
Let you know.....FIGHTERS benefit most from it while people with splashes get "some" benefit.

[Tilomere]

Meh don't want to derail a fighter thread with bs about broken tree builds that they will never fix anyway. S
[/COLOR]

There's nothing broken about tree builds. Sure there are bugs to work around, so it may not work exactly as intended, but that's not news with many things in a game this complex.

Let's make a better THF LD fantasy build:


Evil Cetus

*Deleted*

Then swap to Riftmaker and hit En Pointe. This will 1 combo LE mobs in LD.

[FlaviusMaximus]

To that end I believe that at fighter level one, fighters should get a choice of what there third tree is:
W&S: Vanguard
SWF: Swashbuckler
TWF: Tempest
THF: Frenzied Berserker
Ranged: Deepwood Stalker


Fun idea, allows for more customization, which I like, but I think it may be too much of an advantage for fighters since they would be the only class able to choose their third tree. Could also potentially allow people to bypass alignment restrictions - combining swashbuckler and paladin or berserker and paladin, for example. Also a little on the strong side if one could get the benefits of multiclassing and take a class capstone. I understand elves can technically do this now with their racial AA tree, but it's not something that is unbalancing in that situation.


How about Power Surge is a stacking +1 to each ability for every 2 fighter levels? So a pure level 20 fighter would get a +10 each stat. (And I don't even want to mention the synergy of a pure fighters need for silver flame healing pots and this ability!)
Let you know.....FIGHTERS benefit most from it while people with splashes get "some" benefit.

Seems reasonable, although I wouldn't want to see Power Surge dip below the +8 it is at for level 12. I'm for rewarding those who delve deeper into classes, but not for punishing those who prefer to mix and match. +8 at 12 and then +1 for every two heroic levels after that might not be too bad. Another option is to increase the +8 bonus by three at core 18 instead, making it a +11, since core 18 may need a bit of a boost.

[Grailhawk]

Fun idea, allows for more customization, which I like, but I think it may be too much of an advantage for fighters since they would be the only class able to choose their third tree. Could also potentially allow people to bypass alignment restrictions - combining swashbuckler and paladin or berserker and paladin, for example. Also a little on the strong side if one could get the benefits of multiclassing and take a class capstone. I understand elves can technically do this now with their racial AA tree, but it's not something that is unbalancing in that situation.

I don't see an issue with the alignment restrictions Paladin can already multi class with Tempest and has native access to Vanguard, Berserker and Swashbucker aren't going to add anything more OP than that.

This would function just like any other class tree no way to multi class and get a capstone, Fighter is not a race.

My argument is that fighters should have an advantage of opertunity it's there thing they get more options then other class, this is balanced by the fact they still only have 80ap to spend. I also feel Fighters should not be type cast as W&S or Tanks which is where there going with only one good general purpose DPS tree.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I also feel Fighters should not be type cast as W&S or Tanks which is where there going with only one good general purpose DPS tree.

how does this pass pigeonhole fighter into either of those things? snb fighters will be going t5 in kensei, and potentially capstone, and still only be comparable at the very best next to paladins. improved destruction for free means points in kensei is very valuable in le. personally im expecting a fighter who has a healer around to be capable of slightly (maybe even moderately) more dps than a paladin, particularly against rednames (even more if the fighter who should now have a couple feats to spare picks up precision).

seriously, explain exactly how fighters are going to be good only for tanks?

[Grailhawk]

how does this pass pigeonhole fighter into either of those things? snb fighters will be going t5 in kensei, and potentially capstone, and still only be comparable at the very best next to paladins. improved destruction for free means points in kensei is very valuable in le. personally im expecting a fighter who has a healer around to be capable of slightly (maybe even moderately) more dps than a paladin, particularly against rednames (even more if the fighter who should now have a couple feats to spare picks up precision).

seriously, explain exactly how fighters are going to be good only for tanks?

Ranger is a better TWF dps, because it has two good DPS trees.
Barbadian is a better THF dps, because it has two good DPS trees.
Bard is a better SWF DPS, because it has two good DPS trees.

Kensei is good with the proposed changes but after you spend your ~41 AP there where do you put the next ~30, if W&S you can go Vanguard but if your any other combat style you're left with Harper and Defender, and Harper doesn't come close tire the power of Stalker, War chanter, or Ravaget. It's the same issue Rogues have but Fighters don't get as much or of Harper as Rogues do (Harper has stronger synergy with sneak attack).

Will a pure Fighter be good enough after these changes yes but it won't match a TWF Ranger, I doubt it matches a THF Barbarian, maybe it matches a SWF Bard maybe.

[Tilomere]

Ranger is a better TWF dps, because it has two good DPS trees.
Barbadian is a better THF dps, because it has two good DPS trees.
Bard is a better SWF DPS, because it has two good DPS trees.


Druids have 0 good dps trees by your logic and should be poor dps. That's not how it works though. Every character has basically every tree available to them in the game that they so choose to build with, with very few exceptions.

[FranOhmsford]

Ideally this wouldn't have to reuse existing trees. The flaw with using existing trees is most clear when looking at THF, and Ranged. There aren't any clearly defined THF, or Ranged trees that fit fighter well unlike Swashbuckler, Tempest, and Vanguard which are good fits and very much associated with a fighting style.

Agreed!


Frenzied Berserker is a Pure Barbarian Tree - It wouldn't work with Fighter unless you also took Barb levels to get Rage in the first place!

Deepwood Stalker fits Rogue more than Fighter.


So:
S+B = Vanguard
SWF = Swashbuckler
TWF = Tempest

THF = Hero of the People {the Goliath - Just watch out for those Throwers} - Choose from Maul {Deep Gnomes must choose this}, Greatsword {Warforged must choose this}, Greataxe {Dwarves must choose this}, Greatclub or Falchion.
Special Bonuses on top of the standard = Natural Armour and PRR Bonuses irrespective of Armour, Resistance Bonuses, If naked {not even an Outfit or Robe} gain extra bonuses incl. base 100% Fortification. {Warforged/Bladeforged not applicable for this bonus}.

Archer = Bowman - Choose from Shortbow or Light X-Bow if Halfling or Gnome, Shortbow or Heavy X-Bow if Dwarf, Longbow or Heavy X-Bow all other other races {save the repeaters/Gt X-Bows for Mechanics and Artis}.
Special Bonuses on top of the standard = Doubleshot Aura {Any player in Aura Proximity gains +5, 10, 15, 20, 25 Doubleshot with Shortbows/Longbows/Light X-Bows/Hvy X-Bows} depending on level of Bowman, Stacks up to 3 times.}

Throwers = Athlete - Choose from Dart, Throwing Hammer, Throwing Dagger or Throwing Axe {save Shurikens for Drow and Monks}.
Special Bonuses on top of the standard = T3 +1/2/3 Wpn Dmg with Chosen Throwing Weapon, T5 +1/2/3 Wpn Dmg and Crit Dmg with Chosen Throwing Weapon.

[FranOhmsford]

Druids have 0 good dps trees by your logic and should be poor dps. That's not how it works though. Every character has basically every tree available to them in the game that they so choose to build with, with very few exceptions.

A Pure Druid is terrible DPS!

That's why Wolf Druids are ALWAYS Massively Multiclassed!

Tree doesn't count because 1) It's only available in Epic Levels and 2) Also tends to be Multiclassed!

[Grailhawk]

Druids have 0 good dps trees by your logic and should be poor dps. That's not how it works though. Every character has basically every tree available to them in the game that they so choose to build with, with very few exceptions.

Druid don't TWF, SWF, THF or W&S even if they take those feat. A 20 Druid is a horrible DPS.

Honest question are you aware of how different you play this game from other people? http://www.monkeyinthecage.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Munchkin-Twink.jpg is not how most people play even if it is the most optimal.

[FlaviusMaximus]

This would function just like any other class tree no way to multi class and get a capstone,

Except that by taking a tree that belongs to another class you are getting the benefit of multiclassing without the penalty of missing out on higher tier core fighter enhancements.




Fighter is not a race.

I'll update the wiki.

[Grailhawk]

Except that by taking a tree that belongs to another class you are getting the benefit of multiclassing without the penalty of missing out on higher tier core fighter enhancements.

If a tree is added to a class naively is it really multiclassing? Are Wizards who use Eldritch Knight multiclassed with Sorcerer, are Favored Souls who use Warpriest multiclassed with Cleric, are Fighters who use Vangaurd multiclassed with Paladin?

Also did you miss the post where I said ideally this wouldn't need to reuse trees. Ideally Fighter would have a third tree that was combat style agnostic, since that's not the case I'm suggesting that they get an option for there third tree to allow them to have a choice of combat style, and using existing trees to keep the work to a minimum.




I'll update the wiki.

You are looking at this as a way to get around multiclassing restriction I didn't understand that from your first post, its a valid point but my take is its the more important that Fighters not be type cast into the W&S combat style.

[Saekee]

How about a single epic fighter feat. 1/2 damage per fighter level added to all 1H/2H attacks. This gives them something to scale with in LD.

It is not quite the same but maybe have 12 fighter levels qualify for Improve martial arts? Monks get +1W unarmed or +.5 weapon; I would give kensei straight up +1W.

[DagazUlf]

One thing that is becoming increasingly not fun when playing a fighter (that's not a shield-charger), is that it is really difficult to keep up with today's party members. It seems like everyone has some kind of movement speed boost, or wings, or vault, or shield chargey thing, or whatever. They're always zooming ahead while the fighter just trudges onward.

A lot of times it feels like the guy that should be at the forefront of the battle causing death and destruction, only arrives just in time to kill the wounded. Very not fun.

Any chance there's something to be added in the enhancement tree that could help?

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Ranger is a better TWF dps, because it has two good DPS trees.
Barbadian is a better THF dps, because it has two good DPS trees.
Bard is a better SWF DPS, because it has two good DPS trees.

Kensei is good with the proposed changes but after you spend your ~41 AP there where do you put the next ~30, if W&S you can go Vanguard but if your any other combat style you're left with Harper and Defender, and Harper doesn't come close tire the power of Stalker, War chanter, or Ravaget. It's the same issue Rogues have but Fighters don't get as much or of Harper as Rogues do (Harper has stronger synergy with sneak attack).

Will a pure Fighter be good enough after these changes yes but it won't match a TWF Ranger, I doubt it matches a THF Barbarian, maybe it matches a SWF Bard maybe.


bard has two good dps trees? i dont wc is that good for dps except on trash but thats kind of irrelevant and also based off of dcs which arent going to be reliable for multiple reasons. i think fighter having a good crit profile with a bastard sword of khopesh and more doublestrike and more melee power and more damage mod and more prr and hp than a bard will make them comparable if not better swfers.

if fighters can achieve enough prr and hp with their heavy armor, stance, and feats, to the point where they can survive sorjek more reliably than barbarians can, i think they will have a worthwhile advantage over barbarians. fighters do need a lot more dps to compete though considering barbs get ridiculous healing for free and fighters are still getting nothing. which is good, they should just have a lot more dps. fighters should have more to hit at least. definitely more dstrike. possibly more dmg mod at times. probably similar base mp. i think where fighters are really ****ed is supreme cleave.

fighters i think cant win the twf matchup because theres no way to have the goods from kensei and dod at the same time. however, fighter will have the same crit profile, more mp, more damage mod, more to hit, and more prr and hp. that might be able to be close in le single target dps with ranger despite less offhand hits, less offhand dmg mod, and less offhand doublestrike.



in any case, idk why two trees working together makes or breaks anything or why its tied to combat styles. twf barbs are really good, and they take full advantage of frenzy which apparently is a thf tree first and a barb tree second, i had not been aware of this. also, ravager doesnt inherently benefit thf more than any other style, in fact i think it benefits twf the most.

bard has a swf tree, and two whatever trees, i dont really think wc adds directly adds that much to a bards solo dps, and its absolutely not specifically tied to swf.

ranger i think has the two trees with the strongest synergy to a specific combat style, because tempest obviously. i also think that killer is the biggest thing that the two rangers trees have combined over fighter is killer, because while that wont help against sorjek, it is more powerful when stacked than the fighter capstone. this means that rangers will pretty much always be proccing a lot more attacks to a **** ton more attacks than a fighter.


i think its curious that based just on what other people are thinking based on the posting in this thread that paladin is going to continue to be relevant dps but is not part of the above post. paladins are capable dps in all three of those fighting styles, and only have 1 non snb dps tree. doesnt that demonstrate that two trees both focus on general dps isnt necessary to having a productive character? i dont think anyone is going to say paladins were beating barbs in thf aoe dps (in my experience paladin is definitely better st dps than thf barb), or that they are better dps pure or 15/5 than a pure tempest for twf, but i again think pally is a better swfer than bard, and offers better saves and emergency heals than the other classes.

where will i be putting the remaining points on my fighter? right now the plan is 41 in kensei, enough into std for +6 str and +20% hp, enough into harper for kta, and human for dmg boost. last time i was pure fighter i didnt take +20% hp because it wasnt needed then, so i had ranks of hamp from human and extra mp from harper. if i had just had an extra crit multiplier and a decent spammable clicky attack (fists of iron, divine sacrifice) i wouldve been way better dps than a paladin even though the kensei tree was still expensive and sparse. which is funny because it is still going to be sparse, most of the added power is going to be in things that already exist.

[Grailhawk]

bard has two good dps trees? i dont wc is that good for dps except on trash but thats kind of irrelevant and also based off of dcs which arent going to be reliable for multiple reasons. i think fighter having a good crit profile with a bastard sword of khopesh and more doublestrike and more melee power and more damage mod and more prr and hp than a bard will make them comparable if not better swfers.

WC has the AOE Stun and a fair deal of +1 damage and double strike it combined with harper is > Harper and Defender for DPS. Your discounting Warchanter a bit more than you should be.


if fighters can achieve enough prr and hp with their heavy armor, stance, and feats, to the point where they can survive sorjek more reliably than barbarians can, i think they will have a worthwhile advantage over barbarians. fighters do need a lot more dps to compete though considering barbs get ridiculous healing for free and fighters are still getting nothing. which is good, they should just have a lot more dps. fighters should have more to hit at least. definitely more dstrike. possibly more dmg mod at times. probably similar base mp. i think where fighters are really ****ed is supreme cleave.


Looks like you have conceded barb > fighter for THF dps? but fighter > defense (aka fighter is a better tank). If the defense equates to enough extra up time to make up for the dps lose ok but I don't think it does.


fighters i think cant win the twf matchup because theres no way to have the goods from kensei and dod at the same time. however, fighter will have the same crit profile, more mp, more damage mod, more to hit, and more prr and hp. that might be able to be close in le single target dps with ranger despite less offhand hits, less offhand dmg mod, and less offhand doublestrike.

More to hit ok, more damage is debatable Growing Storm, Favored Enemy, and Thrill of the Hunt make up a lot there its on average 20/30*10 + 13 + 1/2*3 = 21.16 avg with spikes of 26 and thats before we bring in Dual Perfection.


in any case, idk why two trees working together makes or breaks anything or why its tied to combat styles. twf barbs are really good, and they take full advantage of frenzy which apparently is a thf tree first and a barb tree second, i had not been aware of this. also, ravager doesnt inherently benefit thf more than any other style, in fact i think it benefits twf the most.

Its tied to combat style because Vanguard makes it tied to combat style. IF Vanguard was a general tree like Ravager, Stalker, War Chanter or Knight of the Chalice this wouldn't be an issue.

I've already admitted that THF and Ranged would be much better with new trees then trying to shoe horn in existing trees but IMO that's better then being left with only Harper and Defenders as you best choice.


i think its curious that based just on what other people are thinking based on the posting in this thread that paladin is going to continue to be relevant dps but is not part of the above post. paladins are capable dps in all three of those fighting styles, and only have 1 non snb dps tree. doesnt that demonstrate that two trees both focus on general dps isnt necessary to having a productive character? i dont think anyone is going to say paladins were beating barbs in thf aoe dps (in my experience paladin is definitely better st dps than thf barb), or that they are better dps pure or 15/5 than a pure tempest for twf, but i again think pally is a better swfer than bard, and offers better saves and emergency heals than the other classes.
Paladins are not better then Pure Rangers at TWF not at DPS.

There close enough to Barbarians that the extra staying power makes up for the Barbarians better DPS but Barbarians do more DPS. And Fighter doesn't have the staying power a Paladin has because of the weaker healing.

But what they do best is W&S because they can take advantage of both Knight and Vanguard at the same time, this is especially true when looking at pure classes and only mostly true when looking at multiclass builds.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

More to hit ok, more damage is debatable Growing Storm, Favored Enemy, and Thrill of the Hunt make up a lot there its on average 20/30*10 + 13 + 1/2*3 = 21.16 avg with spikes of 26 and thats before we bring in Dual Perfection.

Its tied to combat style because Vanguard makes it tied to combat style. IF Vanguard was a general tree like Ravager, Stalker, War Chanter or Knight of the Chalice this wouldn't be an issue.

Paladins are not better then Pure Rangers at TWF not at DPS.

There close enough to Barbarians that the extra staying power makes up for the Barbarians better DPS but Barbarians do more DPS. And Fighter doesn't have the staying power a Paladin has because of the weaker healing.

But what they do best is W&S because they can take advantage of both Knight and Vanguard at the same time, this is especially true when looking at pure classes and only mostly true when looking at multiclass builds.

a twf fighter is going to have +10 dmg from kensei enhancements, +4 from feats, get about 5 more points of dmg out of kta, and will have higher strength by a considerable amount (back when i was pure fighter some time around u26-27ish i was hitting 90 some str, pure ranger a while after that was only low to mid 70s with the same amount of effort). dual perfection is a huge advantage to rangers, along with a number of other things. it doesnt change that fighter is going to have a somewhat higher flat dmg mod on the stat sheet, which is all im saying. i think twf will still be hands down better as a ranger.

i never said paladin was better twf than ranger. in fact i said the opposite.

personally i dont think paladins and barbs are very close at all. after having played both in the same game state, i think barbarian is just straight up better. massively superior aoe dps because of supreme cleave, blood strength is ridiculous healing and imo really amplifies any tankiness you already have, which barbs do have, and doesnt cost you dps. paladin is moderately better single target dps because of the crit profile, double strike, smite/buff, and divine sacrifice, but frankly is worse in survivability in combat. barbs just constantly spin meaning they have a ton of opportunities against trash to proc heals, and because theyre literal cyclones of death they are proccing the on kill heal often as well. because barbs are a very straightforward class, they dont have to build for much, meaning they can fit dps and hamp into gear without issue. paladins have choices to make. do i equip a dmg item or a defense item here (a choice made harder by the fact that they need to balance more stats)? do i slot cocoon? do i keep fighting or heal now? which heal do i use? have i run out of loh? honestly it sounds a little bit worse than it is, but i definitely felt stronger and tankier on a thf barb than i did on a thf paladin, by a lot, despite having 30ish more prr on the paladin. plus, barbs get higher hamp and more hp for free, which ends up being a considerable difference on favor of barbs over paladins, despite the 20% bonus. my conclusion is that paladins are a good alternative for people who cant stand or cant play well while being raged, and for people like me who think trying to twitch and spam divine sacrifice properly while haste boosted and lagging is fun and think that single target dps is more important, but there is no other reason to play a dps paladin.

vanguard doesnt make anything tied to combat style. vanguard is a tree which happens to exist and happens to exist only for fighters and paladins. so what? kotc gets the job done well enough for paladin, kensei will get the job done well enough for fighter. kensei needs to give more dps than it currently does, but only because kensei is going to have no decent form of class based healing at all. and i dont want kenseis to be healing themselves, but seeing as how this game is going, those are the only two alternatives. either kensei becomes another balanced class that does dps and can heal, or they become a risk reward class that does an assload more dps than everyone else but cant inherently heal. i prefer the latter, although it looks like neither of those things is going to happen, in favor of "lets just give fighter a little bit more dps through passive bonuses and call it a day." /sad, /boring. im curious. if barbarian had vanguard in place of or in addition to ravager, would frenzy + vanguard make a snb exotic weapon build the best barbarian, because it would have two trees with combat style synergies?

i dont think snb is what paladin does best. does paladin do snb better than all the other classes? yea. does that mean snb is the best dps paladin you can make? no. same goes for fighter. just because there will be a second tree which could be used to augment a certain fighting style for a class, doesnt mean spending 30 points in it is necessarily the best way to play that class or that character, or that it will be the most dps for that class or character. if you can find a video of a player with all relevant past lives and all relevant gear, using a thf or twf or swf paladin build doing a dps test, and another video of that same player on that same character using a snb paladin that is otherwise played built and geared as close as is appropriately possible to the dps paladin build, and the snb does more dps, then i will accept that snb is what paladins do best. in the meantime, im going to ignore everything i know about this game and assume that because i see twf and thf paladins that those are players who want a paladin that actually does damage.

[Grailhawk]

i dont think anyone is going to say paladins were beating barbs in thf aoe dps (in my experience paladin is definitely better st dps than thf barb), or that they are better dps pure or 15/5 than a pure tempest for twf, but i again think pally is a better swfer than bard, and offers better saves and emergency heals than the other classes.


personally i dont think paladins and barbs are very close at all.

The bold part has me confused then I thought you thought Paladins were better at ST then Barbarian. Which I disagree with in general but am willing to concede maybe if your counting up time vs down time to make up the difference.




i dont think snb is what paladin does best. does paladin do snb better than all the other classes? yea. does that mean snb is the best dps paladin you can make?

But if a Ranger is better at TWF, and a Barbarian is better at THF why make a Fighter (or a Paladin for that matter)?

Fighter W&S might be better DPS then Paladin W&S that's at least a reason to make a W&S Fighter, even if the fighter lacks the staying power that a Paladin has.

If TWF Ranger > TWF Fighter, it doesn't matter if TWF Fighter > W&S Fighter, there's no point in making a TWF Fighter, it still a flavor build given that the defensive boot a fighter gets isn't that much better the what a Ranger gets and Rangers have CSW for healing which a Fighter can't compete with.

If THF Barbarian > THF Fighter , it doesn't matter if THF Fighter > W&S Fighter, there's no point in making a THF Fighter, it still a flavor build given that the defensive boost a fighter gets isn't much better then what a Barbarian gets and Barbarians get passive healing and massive healing amp (to make pots worth using) that Fighter can't compete with.

I don't see them adding enough to make TWF Fighter >= TWF Ranger or close enough to a was, even adding a good tier 4 healing option which is rumored, to make TWF Fighter viable period.

THF maybe if the healing option is good enough maybe that will make it viable but I don't see it beating Barbarian in a general state make the question whats the point of a THF Fighter over a THF Barbarian?

[Tilomere]

Honest question are you aware of how different you play this game from other people?

Everyone plays for the same reason, enjoyment. I happen to enjoy elegant synergy. It is definitely not the same as seeking only to play the most powerful character possible. My builds just happen to be powerful enough for me by happy byproduct of having so much synergy, so people often get confused.

The Evil Cetus build is probably 80% of a pure tempest in dungeon clear times, but I do like how it makes full use of the fighter feats and kensai tree to fuel use of TWF and THF together, and swaps weapons and fighting styles mid fight to debuff/buff first and then execute after, then swaps weapons again for cleanup, while still being solid at pulling out a bow if needed.

The 14/5/1 build is more powerful, probably having more similar total dungeon clear times of a pure tempest, but it isn't elegant enough for me.

However regardless of the % of a tempest they are, fighter is still strong enough as proposed for me. 1/2 of a tempest is good enough for me to do whatever I want with any class in the game. (Tempest is 10k red named dps for those of you who don't know, multi-target with DoD).

Oh, and both builds are vastly inferior to the amount of synergy going on with Supreme Cleavage.




If TWF Ranger > TWF Fighter, it doesn't matter if TWF Fighter > W&S Fighter, there's no point in making a TWF Fighter

f THF Barbarian > THF Fighter , it doesn't matter if THF Fighter > W&S Fighter, there's no point in making a THF Fighter


This isn't something I would ever say, because fully knowing that pure barb or ranger is superior dps, I still make the elegant fighter every day of the week, because I find it more enjoyable. I don't need 10k multi target dps for anything I do in the game. The 10.5k Supreme Cleave is just a byproduct of synergy. LD En Pointe with a Riftmaker is more, but that lacks as much synergy.

The question shouldn't be what % of a tempest or barb a build is, but if it is powerful enough for what you want to do in the game, and enjoyable at doing so.

The fact that we see more than only tempest rangers in game shows that most people play like me, sortof.

It would also be really nice if they fixed kensai Keen Edge and the new multiplier to work with unarmed, because it would make kensai a nice druid tree.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

The bold part has me confused then I thought you thought Paladins were better at ST then Barbarian. Which I disagree with in general but am willing to concede maybe if your counting up time vs down time to make up the difference.

in my thf barb and pally dps tests against bruntsmash paladin has consistently performed about 1k better dps than barbarian. if by up time vs down time you mean being alive or dead, i find barbarian to be quite a bit better at staying alive. this is why i think barbs greatly outclass paladins, pally is slightly better at st dps and saves, barb wins everything else.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Just a logic/philosophical point to make given some of the recent posts here comparing Fighter to other classes, especially other melee types Ranger TWF and Barbarian THF.

Unfortunately, the game has shifted to where one is playing more of a racing game than an RPG. There's a phrase used in the guild a lot: Kill faster, don't die slower. The reason, many experienced guild members see that the DPS approach is preventing deaths (a good Offense is the best Defense), whereas the tanking approach is resulting in deaths. i.e. one can kill faster (and live), or die slower (and still die), in current game.

Is this a generalization? Yes, but it's a logic point to make, that with the game we have where an Elite quest Champion can suddenly and randomly generate big hits, you need to eliminate that Champ soon as possible regardless your health total (especially when the randomization sometimes spawns multiple Champs, each with odds chances to big hit/one-hit kill you, thus increasing odds of death for each second you continue to stand in their presence). This has negated the value of tanking and increased the value of characters that kill Champs more quickly.

So, I will now propose a more radical change to Fighter Tank/Defensive trees specifically - to enable either a high level Core Enhancement or a Tier V that counters Champion's buffs and one-hit kills, potentially reducing a Champion to just another NPC target. Maybe you have to hold a Tower Shield for it to work, and/or wear Heavy Armor, and/or some other condition, or maybe it's a set of bonus Saves in triplicate, but one area this thread is lacking in is toward the point that a Tank Fighter is not a valued asset for most players and groups in the current game we have.

This isn't the only solution, but the thread hasn't delved much into this issue yet.