Crafting update

[Buddha5440]

Any info on the upcoming crafting update (ie. timetable, possible changes, etc.)? We have been told it's in the works for a while now and it would be good to hear a little about what is being looked at. Some things I know we all want is the ability to craft the newer prefixes/suffixes, be able to go beyond +15 total enchantment modifier (even if that means going above min lv 20), and the ability to add an augment slot(s) to crafted items. Not looking for any specifics, but some info would be appreciated. Thanks :)

If there is a thread already covering this, I have missed it so a link would be helpful.

[UurlockYgmeov]

nothing has been publicly said after Turbine pushed CCUP out of U30. That is all I can say.

[cdbd3rd]

nothing has been publicly said after Turbine pushed CCUP out of U30. That is all I can say.

Which says without saying that at least the topic is still being discussed in some form *somewhere*.

I was curious, too.

Fair enough. https://www.ddo.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.png

[UurlockYgmeov]

Sev confirmed on yesterday's livestream that U32 will be the CCUP.

http://www.twitch.tv/ddostream/v/64383921 (https://www.twitch.tv/ddostream/v/64383921)

about 18 minutes in....

[Dewboy691]

I wasn't sure who it was but they said they didn't want to make crafting as powerful as the most powerful "New Random" gear out there.

My immediate response was, "Why not!?!?!" If you, I, spent 40-50 man hours crafting (and that's probably on the light side and me guessing) to get crafting up to 150 then set it up for BTA stuff or even BTC but give us the full wheelhouse of crafting. How many paralyzing weapons does 1 toon need when they are BTC? Heck, jack it up to 200 then and give it to us?

I LOVE the crafting aspect. All of it, Cannith, Sora Kel, etc. I don't want to have to fill my bank (ALL 34 toons worth) and guild chests on the ship and the maxed out shared bank with items that I might use for one of my 34 characters at various levels (all the way up to 30). Talk about slimming down the database pull for each player. My inventory alone would drop to 1/100th of the items. Ask most of the people that TR at 20, that last 2-8 hours of playing is done cleaning out TR cache.

Just my thoughts. I haven't crafted Legendary anything yet since I'm staying away from Epics for a while so I can't speak for how that is used.

Thank you all... cya in the game.

[dunklezhan]

I wasn't sure who it was but they said they didn't want to make crafting as powerful as the most powerful "New Random" gear out there.

My immediate response was, "Why not!?!?!" If you, I, spent 40-50 man hours crafting (and that's probably on the light side and me guessing) to get crafting up to 150 then set it up for BTA stuff or even BTC but give us the full wheelhouse of crafting. How many paralyzing weapons does 1 toon need when they are BTC? Heck, jack it up to 200 then and give it to us?

I LOVE the crafting aspect. All of it, Cannith, Sora Kel, etc. I don't want to have to fill my bank (ALL 34 toons worth) and guild chests on the ship and the maxed out shared bank with items that I might use for one of my 34 characters at various levels (all the way up to 30). Talk about slimming down the database pull for each player. My inventory alone would drop to 1/100th of the items. Ask most of the people that TR at 20, that last 2-8 hours of playing is done cleaning out TR cache.

Just my thoughts. I haven't crafted Legendary anything yet since I'm staying away from Epics for a while so I can't speak for how that is used.

Thank you all... cya in the game.

It depends on what they mean by 'not as good'. They might mean:

Higher ML for the same power level (e.g. Deadly 4 might be L4 in lootgen but 7 in CC)
Certain effects simply unavailable
Hidden effects can only appear on random loot
Some combination of all three or something completely different.

The second one is the one that would really concern me, but I don't mind too much if the 'luckiest drop ever' is something more powerful than I can make with CC, so long as I can make something close in the same range. I'd like to get a way to craft the hidden effects (obviously increasing ML beyond that you might find on random loot) but I could live without that too.

What I really don't want to see are some effects outright only available in lootgen - I don't care if the max lootgen is, say, [effect A] 200 and the max CC is [effect A] 180, but if I can't get [effect A] at all? Ugh. Horrid.

That still makes me mad about the current CC iteration missing things like paralysing, because there's just no need for it - you simply balance it with number or rarity of relevant ingredients and the required high crafting level, different MLs depending on whether bound or unbound, and so on. There are plenty of effects that were brilliant at the time in CC I've never made wholesale with CC for myself or most especially for others because of those kinds of entirely reasonable limitations, and certainly there are a number I only ever made very small numbers of because I just never found enough ingredients - stuff that needed soulgems or eberron fragments for example.

[Cordovan]

We are looking to update Cannith Crafting for Update 32. As usual, typical disclaimers about unforeseen things that could delay it apply.

[dunklezhan]

We are looking to update Cannith Crafting for Update 32. As usual, typical disclaimers about unforeseen things that could delay it apply.

Lol I thought Sev sounded unusually definite. Engage expectation management shields, Mr Crusher!

Hehe. Its ok Cordo, plans are not promises.

[Dewboy691]

There are plenty of effects that were brilliant at the time in CC I've never made wholesale with CC for myself or most especially for others because of those kinds of entirely reasonable limitations, and certainly there are a number I only ever made very small numbers of because I just never found enough ingredients - stuff that needed soulgems or eberron fragments for example.

I agree. I ran Sorrowdusk series multiple times just for the fish to make DUSK. THAT is what I'm talking about. If there is a "super special" effect then make an ingredient that is hard or time consuming to farm so it's less frequent. PLEASE don't make the ingredients bound since it would be nice to be able to buy and sell these rare items, since not everyone has time or mental .... numbness to get these items. I'm a numbhead and I would/have farmed quest chains.

[Enoach]

We are looking to update Cannith Crafting for Update 32. As usual, typical disclaimers about unforeseen things that could delay it apply.


Lol I thought Sev sounded unusually definite. Engage expectation management shields, Mr Crusher!

Hehe. Its ok Cordo, plans are not promises.

What?!?!? isn't that how all things said by the producer are suppose to be taken ;)

But seriously, having a plan and making an actual promise it will be there are two different things. Letting us know there is a plan and any details that could allow us early and often feedback will keep us engaged as well as pacified knowing this is moving forward.

[cdbd3rd]

We are looking to update Cannith Crafting for Update 32. As usual, typical disclaimers about unforeseen things that could delay it apply.

May it be ever so prickly, we still luvs our CC.

https://cdn.searchenginejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/hugging-cactus.jpg

[Dandonk]

I wasn't sure who it was but they said they didn't want to make crafting as powerful as the most powerful "New Random" gear out there.

Indeed, that was said. And I'm very sad to hear that. Getting a lower tier of loot for more effort is counterintuitive to me. If we can't have crafting as good as randgen, I'd rather they leave it alone and use the time on something else.

[UurlockYgmeov]

May it be ever so prickly, we still luvs our CC.

https://cdn.searchenginejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/hugging-cactus.jpg
+1 :)

Only a dedicated crafter truly can understand the CC love. :P


Indeed, that was said. And I'm very sad to hear that. Getting a lower tier of loot for more effort is counterintuitive to me. If we can't have crafting as good as randgen, I'd rather they leave it alone and use the time on something else.

I say at least just get it right - not another LGS.

[slarden]

We are looking to update Cannith Crafting for Update 32. As usual, typical disclaimers about unforeseen things that could delay it apply.

Thank you for the heads-up. I am really looking forward to updated cannith crafting - one of my favorite parts of the game when it was relevant.

[Dandonk]

Thank you for the heads-up. I am really looking forward to updated cannith crafting - one of my favorite parts of the game when it was relevant.

Judging from the livechat, it won't become relevant.

[mna]

Indeed, that was said. And I'm very sad to hear that. Getting a lower tier of loot for more effort is counterintuitive to me. If we can't have crafting as good as randgen, I'd rather they leave it alone and use the time on something else.

As good as, versus predictable? Because with random loot being random, the effort required to get the specific best possible item is just... well... unreasonable, at least for heroic gear.

It's long been so that crafting is useful for those specific effects where the randgen + named drops supply hasn't sufficient to meet demand. Meaning things like blindness ward, water breathing... and trapper gear. And specific combinations.

At least trap gear seems to have gotten more common recently so the demand for crafted trap gear is less now.


But, DR-breaker weapons seem to have gotten much more rare in randgen now... what with the current alignment damage prefixes not giving the damage type flag to the actual weapon damage.

Fancy-materials weapon and armor blanks for crafting have always been in demand - and the pretty much complete lack of the latter for the past few years (except for veteran players' old bank inventory) has been a common complaint, although, I suppose you're expected to farm for dragonscales in GH Tor before playing a druid "for real" now ...?

[UurlockYgmeov]

Judging from the livechat, it won't become relevant.

I've not given up --- not until it has gone live.. even then...

[Ovrad]

Since you'll be working on item mechanics, any chance you'll finally get to fix wraps?

Or have you guys gave up on that long ago?

[Dandonk]

As good as, versus predictable? Because with random loot being random, the effort required to get the specific best possible item is just... well... unreasonable, at least for heroic gear.

That's what I hope for CC. You can either play the loot lottery, or grind the CC. Either way will get you there in the end.

Now, I'm not advocating that the endgame uber combinations should be handed out liked candy. The cost should be high, and the recipe require rare drops. But it should be possible, or I don't see a point in CC.


I've not given up --- not until it has gone live.. even then...

Never give up, never surrender!

[mna]

Fancy-materials weapon and armor blanks for crafting have always been in demand - and the pretty much complete lack of the latter for the past few years (except for veteran players' old bank inventory) has been a common complaint, although, I suppose you're expected to farm for dragonscales in GH Tor before playing a druid "for real" now ...?

... actually, a suggestion that would help:

Implement a mechanic of changing base type of armor, shields and weapons? Such as, input 3 regular metal "mountain breastplates" + some variant of dragonshard fragments + dragon's blood + x adamantine ore, output one craftable adamantine mountain breastplate? (Note, augment slots should be copied over at least if all three input items have the same kind)

Use something like that for druids and such to get darkwood, densewood, darkleaf, bone and hide armor and shields again, and DR-breaker blanks for weapon crafting... please? (What to use for the type item for those? I guess there should be suitable item drops somewhere, like with the adamantine ore now...? Bone and hide should be fairly common but fancy woods and mithral could be rare as long as they're tradeable...)


... actually I suppose it'd also make sense to be able to extract a material type from named items (with the expected cost of expending those items) but that's probably more work, coding wise...

[JOTMON]

What I would like to see with the crafting system is a way to break down aspects of each item and re-apply components I want.
picked up a vorpal of acid lore with insightful corrosion.. let me strip the vorpal from that and be able to slot a different prefix.
by breaking the items down to interchangeable components it would open up the whole custom crafting
Prefix augment, Suffix Augment, Auxiliary Augment, +enhancement level
Top level crafters automatically imbue level reducers with: skilled, Masterful, Wonderous, etc..
~warning: slicing and dicing quality gear above your skill level does have risk of loss and failure...

Customize items with .. cosmetic redesign..
Let me interchange the looks of items, strip out the base, trim, accents.
Take the base item from one thing I like the look of, add the skull, rose, or whatever other accent from something else and create my own look.

Then let me manipulate the cosmetic look of the item itself that sticks with the item.
modify color by applying hair dyes to customize the colors of the base, trim, accents.
like.. Let me take an existing dragon armor and color it pink with gold trim and black accents..


This would then open the world to non-bound custom crafted gear utilizing glamering kits and hair dyes to customize looks.
Tag it as custom in the description to make it easer to find in AH.. add AH preview to look at items before buying them...

My understanding is the current build of items are one off designs, so they are not customizable
but.. moving forward... is this not something that could be designed in...
could even introduce it as a DDO store version of customizable base items with a selection of looks, trims, accents... that could be added to in store and in game...
Many players want to build a certain look, while the graphics/design team has come up with some great cosmetics they are still limited to one off designs.

Fashion/Vanity items typically are big sellers in any game that the company should be capitalizing on.

[nokowi]

What I would like to see with the crafting system is a way to break down aspects of each item and re-apply components I want.
picked up a vorpal of acid lore with insightful corrosion.. let me strip the vorpal from that and be able to slot a different prefix.
by breaking the items down to interchangeable components it would open up the whole custom crafting
Prefix augment, Suffix Augment, Auxiliary Augment, +enhancement level

I suggested something like this when CC first came up for discussion.

If you allow players to "upgrade" augments, you will have something like the crystal cove or mabar upgrades, where the cost gets higher and higher as the upgrade level increases. This would create a system where finding random loot is useful (cheaper finding existing augments than crafting them from scratch) but with enough effort crafting will eventually improve all of your randgen items. One bonus would be that upgrading an existing item still creates a more useful item, even if you don't have the skill or ingreds to get it to the maximum possible value yet.

In one possible "augment" system, the augment could preserve the min level, the loot level, and the loot roll (d100) of the augment. Combining the same item with the same min level could cause an improvement in loot level and/or loot roll of the augment.

[SisAmethyst]

It depends on what they mean by 'not as good'. They might mean:

Higher ML for the same power level (e.g. Deadly 4 might be L4 in lootgen but 7 in CC)
Certain effects simply unavailable
Hidden effects can only appear on random loot
Some combination of all three or something completely different.

The second one is the one that would really concern me, but I don't mind too much if the 'luckiest drop ever' is something more powerful than I can make with CC, so long as I can make something close in the same range. I'd like to get a way to craft the hidden effects (obviously increasing ML beyond that you might find on random loot) but I could live without that too.

What I really don't want to see are some effects outright only available in lootgen - I don't care if the max lootgen is, say, [effect A] 200 and the max CC is [effect A] 180, but if I can't get [effect A] at all? Ugh. Horrid.

That still makes me mad about the current CC iteration missing things like paralysing, because there's just no need for it - you simply balance it with number or rarity of relevant ingredients and the required high crafting level, different MLs depending on whether bound or unbound, and so on. There are plenty of effects that were brilliant at the time in CC I've never made wholesale with CC for myself or most especially for others because of those kinds of entirely reasonable limitations, and certainly there are a number I only ever made very small numbers of because I just never found enough ingredients - stuff that needed soulgems or eberron fragments for example.

For me CC does not need to be better at all, just equal to it with the difference that we actually can choose the combination of prefix and suffix. Heck if they are really concerned, make them indeed +2 ML so that you have to add the master crafter to bring it on par with lootgen. However I personally think the base crafted item rather should be exactly the same as lootgen. After all you still have to farm for (rare) ingredients and get your crafting level high enough.

I also agree with things like paralysing to be added. Especially as certain effects meanwhile have been so watered down since what they have been back 10 years ago, that I don't see the concern of them being OP anymore. After all, a player that is in the game long enough to already have crafting level 150 probably already got a paralyzing weapon in the bank anyway or could buy it from the AH if he would care.

In general the Devs should not only look on what is possible to craft, but also who is able to and with which effort. If it is too much hassle to craft, I rather buy a passable lootgen weapon from the AH instead. If they fear that in this case people will sell certain shards, make them only as bound shard. If they fear that nobody will sell or buy lootgen anymore on the AH, well I guess a lot of players that are long enough in the game have already a stack of named items (e.g. Raiders Box) and aren't in desperate need of them or still use CC and just decon any random loot that is vendor trash anyway already.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

I want to be able to craft augments, potions, other temporary consumables (like a neg level absorb item).

And crafting MUST be as good as loot gen at THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF CRAFTING. Otherwise there is no point spending all the resources and HOURS AND HOURS sitting at the machine crafting.

AND FIX THE LAG!!

[Kompera_Oberon]

And crafting MUST be as good as loot gen at THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF CRAFTING. Otherwise there is no point spending all the resources and HOURS AND HOURS sitting at the machine crafting.

Quoted for truth.

Investing the time and opportunity cost into building your characters crafting skills needs to provide a meaningful return or it is pointless. If a crafter at level cap is wearing lootgen items and not crafted items, then what value is being realized for the investment?

In the very many hours it requires standing at an annoying (buggy, requires frequent closing and re-opening to continue to function) crafting interface instead of playing the game in order to build your skill up you can pull literally hundreds if not thousands of chests. In that same time not spent standing at a crafting interface you are also:

Pulling plat, scrolls, potions, lootgen items;
Picking up Mysterious Remnants for nice rewards;
Earning Guild Renown;
Collecting Eberron and Siberys dragonshards for Stone of Change rituals and trap the soul components;
Finding Collectables for lots of uses;
Earning Favor/TP;
Picking up Scrolls/Seals/Shards for Epic Crafting;
Completing quest chains for guaranteed rewards;
Building raids towards your 20th completions;
Working on Sagas for XP/Guild Renown/Tomes;
Earning XP and Karma and filling out Epic Destinys;
Filling in your MM for XP, TP, Remnants, companions, and intelligence on the monsters;
Potentially pulling named drops and the occasional rare item such as a tome or Purified Dragonshard fragment or etc.

I am certain that the above list is not comprehensive. The best way to sum it up, however, is that instead of spending a very many hours standing at a crafting interface you are actually playing the game!

If all the sacrifice enumerated above does not manage to result in the character being able to craft items which they will wear in preference to the random lootgen items they can find in the course of simply playing the game rather than building their crafting skills, then there is something seriously wrong with the crafting system.

[Dandonk]

Quoted for truth.

Investing the time and opportunity cost into building your characters crafting skills needs to provide a meaningful return or it is pointless. If a crafter at level cap is wearing lootgen items and not crafted items, then what value is being realized for the investment?

In the very many hours it requires standing at an annoying (buggy, requires frequent closing and re-opening to continue to function) crafting interface instead of playing the game in order to build your skill up you can pull literally hundreds if not thousands of chests. In that same time not spent standing at a crafting interface you are also:

Pulling plat, scrolls, potions, lootgen items;
Picking up Mysterious Remnants for nice rewards;
Earning Guild Renown;
Collecting Eberron and Siberys dragonshards for Stone of Change rituals and trap the soul components;
Finding Collectables for lots of uses;
Earning Favor/TP;
Picking up Scrolls/Seals/Shards for Epic Crafting;
Completing quest chains for guaranteed rewards;
Building raids towards your 20th completions;
Working on Sagas for XP/Guild Renown/Tomes;
Earning XP and Karma and filling out Epic Destinys;
Filling in your MM for XP, TP, Remnants, companions, and intelligence on the monsters;
Potentially pulling named drops and the occasional rare item such as a tome or Purified Dragonshard fragment or etc.

I am certain that the above list is not comprehensive. The best way to sum it up, however, is that instead of spending a very many hours standing at a crafting interface you are actually playing the game!

If all the sacrifice enumerated above does not manage to result in the character being able to craft items which they will wear in preference to the random lootgen items they can find in the course of simply playing the game rather than building their crafting skills, then there is something seriously wrong with the crafting system.

Very well put.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Quoted for truth.

Investing the time and opportunity cost into building your characters crafting skills needs to provide a meaningful return or it is pointless. If a crafter at level cap is wearing lootgen items and not crafted items, then what value is being realized for the investment?

In the very many hours it requires standing at an annoying (buggy, requires frequent closing and re-opening to continue to function) crafting interface instead of playing the game in order to build your skill up you can pull literally hundreds if not thousands of chests. In that same time not spent standing at a crafting interface you are also:

Pulling plat, scrolls, potions, lootgen items;
Picking up Mysterious Remnants for nice rewards;
Earning Guild Renown;
Collecting Eberron and Siberys dragonshards for Stone of Change rituals and trap the soul components;
Finding Collectables for lots of uses;
Earning Favor/TP;
Picking up Scrolls/Seals/Shards for Epic Crafting;
Completing quest chains for guaranteed rewards;
Building raids towards your 20th completions;
Working on Sagas for XP/Guild Renown/Tomes;
Earning XP and Karma and filling out Epic Destinys;
Filling in your MM for XP, TP, Remnants, companions, and intelligence on the monsters;
Potentially pulling named drops and the occasional rare item such as a tome or Purified Dragonshard fragment or etc.

I am certain that the above list is not comprehensive. The best way to sum it up, however, is that instead of spending a very many hours standing at a crafting interface you are actually playing the game!

If all the sacrifice enumerated above does not manage to result in the character being able to craft items which they will wear in preference to the random lootgen items they can find in the course of simply playing the game rather than building their crafting skills, then there is something seriously wrong with the crafting system.

+1 *slow clap* *teardrop* well said.

[Dewboy691]

Quoted for truth.

Investing the time and opportunity cost into building your characters crafting skills needs to provide a meaningful return or it is pointless. If a crafter at level cap is wearing lootgen items and not crafted items, then what value is being realized for the investment?

In the very many hours it requires standing at an annoying (buggy, requires frequent closing and re-opening to continue to function) crafting interface instead of playing the game in order to build your skill up you can pull literally hundreds if not thousands of chests. In that same time not spent standing at a crafting interface you are also:

Pulling plat, scrolls, potions, lootgen items;
Picking up Mysterious Remnants for nice rewards;
Earning Guild Renown;
Collecting Eberron and Siberys dragonshards for Stone of Change rituals and trap the soul components;
Finding Collectables for lots of uses;
Earning Favor/TP;
Picking up Scrolls/Seals/Shards for Epic Crafting;
Completing quest chains for guaranteed rewards;
Building raids towards your 20th completions;
Working on Sagas for XP/Guild Renown/Tomes;
Earning XP and Karma and filling out Epic Destinys;
Filling in your MM for XP, TP, Remnants, companions, and intelligence on the monsters;
Potentially pulling named drops and the occasional rare item such as a tome or Purified Dragonshard fragment or etc.

I am certain that the above list is not comprehensive. The best way to sum it up, however, is that instead of spending a very many hours standing at a crafting interface you are actually playing the game!

If all the sacrifice enumerated above does not manage to result in the character being able to craft items which they will wear in preference to the random lootgen items they can find in the course of simply playing the game rather than building their crafting skills, then there is something seriously wrong with the crafting system.


+1 YEAH, this!! This is the reason we should have it at full power. I played UO and 90% of my time was crafting and selling my homemade gear. I love the quests and PUGing but it would be nice to just craft for an hour or so and make some coin/shards.

[Chai]

I think DDO should take a look at Neverwinter for their crafting. Completely ignore the adventuring gameplay and solely focus on their crafting.

In NW, my character isn't the crafter. He is a manager of crafters he hires to do jobs, which take RL time. The good part is while that RL time is ticking away, I can go adventuring, log off, or whatever. Still a high level of time sync, but doesn't require the player to stare at a crafting device the entire time.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I think DDO should take a look at Neverwinter for their crafting. Completely ignore the adventuring gameplay and solely focus on their crafting.

In NW, my character isn't the crafter. He is a manager of crafters he hires to do jobs, which take RL time. The good part is while that RL time is ticking away, I can go adventuring, log off, or whatever. Still a high level of time sync, but doesn't require the player to stare at a crafting device the entire time.

as much as scrapping cannith and doing it a better way is appealing - it would invalidate all the work everyone has done in cannith to date, and that is ALLOT of work.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Very well put.
Thanks for the support.

Since you're on the PC, please bring this to the attention of the devs before they get to far along in their plans for CC. They are probably far more likely to listen to you than to me, and you at least have access to the PC forums where your voice won't be as lost in the crod as mine is on these forums.

All I've heard on the grapevine so far is something to the effect that the devs don't want CC to be able to make items "as good as lootgen," out of some misguided fear that they just put a lot of hours into upgrading the lootgen items and don't want that time to be in some manner "wasted." That position makes zero logical sense, since it will also take a lot of hours to upgrade the Cannith Crafting system, and they should not want those hours to be wasted, either. Limiting Cannith Crafting to less beneficial items than can be found as lootgen would be in effect spending a lot of time and effort on "improving" a crafting system which there will be no incentive for anyone to actually use. It would be dead on arrival. And since that seems to be both pointless and foolish I would hope that this is either not their actual plan or that they are willing to be educated in the obvious limitations of their current vision.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Thanks for the support.

Since you're on the PC, please bring this to the attention of the devs before they get to far along in their plans for CC. They are probably far more likely to listen to you than to me, and you at least have access to the PC forums where your voice won't be as lost in the crod as mine is on these forums.

All I've heard on the grapevine so far is something to the effect that the devs don't want CC to be able to make items "as good as lootgen," out of some misguided fear that they just put a lot of hours into upgrading the lootgen items and don't want that time to be in some manner "wasted." That position makes zero logical sense, since it will also take a lot of hours to upgrade the Cannith Crafting system, and they should not want those hours to be wasted, either. Limiting Cannith Crafting to less beneficial items than can be found as lootgen would be in effect spending a lot of time and effort on "improving" a crafting system which there will be no incentive for anyone to actually use. It would be dead on arrival. And since that seems to be both pointless and foolish I would hope that this is either not their actual plan or that they are willing to be educated in the obvious limitations of their current vision.

Agree - and I am confident that the Dev's ARE reading this thread (educated guess) and just lurking. Just look at the thread 'The Tale of Three Forks - The Cannith Crafting Update Pass" - 15,000 views and absolutely zero Dev comments. Darn Lurkers! :P:rolleyes::eek::p;):D:cool:

[Dandonk]

Thanks for the support.

Since you're on the PC, please bring this to the attention of the devs before they get to far along in their plans for CC. They are probably far more likely to listen to you than to me, and you at least have access to the PC forums where your voice won't be as lost in the crod as mine is on these forums.

All I've heard on the grapevine so far is something to the effect that the devs don't want CC to be able to make items "as good as lootgen," out of some misguided fear that they just put a lot of hours into upgrading the lootgen items and don't want that time to be in some manner "wasted." That position makes zero logical sense, since it will also take a lot of hours to upgrade the Cannith Crafting system, and they should not want those hours to be wasted, either. Limiting Cannith Crafting to less beneficial items than can be found as lootgen would be in effect spending a lot of time and effort on "improving" a crafting system which there will be no incentive for anyone to actually use. It would be dead on arrival. And since that seems to be both pointless and foolish I would hope that this is either not their actual plan or that they are willing to be educated in the obvious limitations of their current vision.

The livestream did say that they don't want crafting to be able to make as good as stars-aligned randgen loot, yes. We'll need everyone who feels this would undermine the whole point of any CC update to voice their opinion - I'm not sure if we can change their minds on this, but if we're to have any chance, we'll need as many as possible talking about it.

[Enderoc]

A better crafting system is a good trade off for limited bank space where we end up throwing things out we would otherwise keep. Frustration is probably the number one reason people quit games throwing out your good gear is a cause of frustration. Being able to craft your own equipment even to the point of unique items...is not a bad idea at all as long as the ingredients were a task to grind for, which would keep things interesting. In that aspect one might spend considerable amount of time crafting for next life in stages. Those who have not got to that crafting level yet could still find loot to compensate.

[dunklezhan]

For me CC does not need to be better at all, just equal to it with the difference that we actually can choose the combination of prefix and suffix. Heck if they are really concerned, make them indeed +2 ML so that you have to add the master crafter to bring it on par with lootgen. However I personally think the base crafted item rather should be exactly the same as lootgen. After all you still have to farm for (rare) ingredients and get your crafting level high enough.



Don't mistake my 'if I must compromise, I could live with...' as being the same as me agreeing with that compromise. Compromises, by definition, are not representative of what someone wants, they're a definition of what you'll settle for if push comes to shove. No-one is happy with compromises, that's the point of them.

I 100% agree that - given the effort that goes into it and assuming appropriate restrictions by way of minimum crafting levels and ingredient quantity/rarity - cannith crafting should absolutely be able to turn out anything that could drop randomly in the lootgen system.

I think arguments to the contrary are full of holes, I can't even understand where such views are coming from. I maxed out my crafting levels previously, I still used random loot more than I used CC because the things that dropped used to be more frequently useful. I don't know anyone who mass produced anything that 'invalidated' that. Also, it was always worth checking the AH before you went to craft, just in case. Investing in CC allowed me to twink at lower levels - and really, at this point I don't understand why we're concerned about balance vs content in lower levels for CC given everything else they've added since CC came in - and it allowed me to fill a gap if I hadn't looted anything up to then.

The whole 'but it will invalidate lootgen' argument just seems like a total false flag argument to me - it is worrying about something that people also worried about pre-CC implementation but for which I have never seen a single piece of evidence in terms of it actually happening. Not sure why we'd think it suddenly would in this iteration - except of course that random loot is so random now that its actually awful. Against that, of course CC looks more attractive. That's not a reason to hamstring CC, its a reason to revisit the balance of lootgen.

But it sounds like Sev has his heart set on it explicitly being 'not as good as random loot'. I totally disagree with that design philosophy, but if Sev has his heart set on it and given how much of an outlier view my opinion tends to represent.... then experience shows it will be happening how Sev wants it. I was just trying to suggest compromises that kept it close to lootgen in power level terms.

But look at it this way - you take a game like WoW which has a very large, very powerful crafting system. Or Neverwinter Online. Even, to an extent, Path of Exile.

The sorts of things you can make in these games does completely invalidate random loot in terms of sheer power... but people are still wearing and using random loot. The balance is in how easy or hard it is to make what you want - relative power level is not actually that important, except that it provides a clue as to how easy or hard the designers should make the recipe. A lot of those games let you essentially make named items and named items are almost always better than an equivalent random loot gen item in every game I've played except DDO which is far more to do with Designers having time to revisit than any deliberate game design choice.

Point is - it won't invalidate anything unless you make it too easy, quick or resource-light to reach the required level to craft the powerful things. That kind of balance is a tricky knife edge to walk... but that's presumably what game designers are paid for. As it is, it really sounds like they're saying 'oh, that sounds hard, let's just make it a pointless endeavour from the start and then it'll never be a problem'.

...I also recognise that there may be technical limitations on adding things like slots and the hidden effects. For me, if those are technical limitations then that provides as much compromise as the system needs. Taking the time to actually deliberately introduce more compromises than that is just hamstringing the thing before it even goes out.

[Ballyspringer]

I 100% agree that - given the effort that goes into it and assuming appropriate restrictions by way of minimum crafting levels and ingredient quantity/rarity - cannith crafting should absolutely be able to turn out anything that could drop randomly in the lootgen system.

I think arguments to the contrary are full of holes, I can't even understand where such views are coming from. I maxed out my crafting levels previously, I still used random loot more than I used CC because the things that dropped used to be more frequently useful. I don't know anyone who mass produced anything that 'invalidated' that. Also, it was always worth checking the AH before you went to craft, just in case. Investing in CC allowed me to twink at lower levels - and really, at this point I don't understand why we're concerned about balance vs content in lower levels for CC given everything else they've added since CC came in - and it allowed me to fill a gap if I hadn't looted anything up to then.

The whole 'but it will invalidate lootgen' argument just seems like a total false flag argument to me - it is worrying about something that people also worried about pre-CC implementation but for which I have never seen a single piece of evidence in terms of it actually happening. Not sure why we'd think it suddenly would in this iteration - except of course that random loot is so random now that its actually awful. Against that, of course CC looks more attractive. That's not a reason to hamstring CC, its a reason to revisit the balance of lootgen.





I agree here, when this system came out to me (and a lot of my in-game friends who crafted) the countless hours sitting in front of the machines and trying to get to the top crafting levels (which isn't as easy as it appears some devs may think due to getting less xp everytime you make a shard than the last time) was all worth it because you could end up with customizable +5 X burst greater X bane items that were super rare drops with the right material type of base item, and at the time were great end game raid weapons. Being able to move around the +6 stat with flexible shards (and +6 was pretty much the top) was a cherry on top, especially for TR's.

But again main reason was making the top end stuff. Going into Elite shroud with a +5 anarchic burst adamantine maul of greater construct bane for part 1, and being able to swap to a +5 holy burst silver greatsword of greater evil outsider bane for Harry - that was why we crafted as trying to find those exact top end perfect combinations was almost impossible! And because of how much time and resources it took to get to those top crafting level, raids were NOT filled with those weapons with everyone running around with that making everything else obsolete- it was still fairly rare to see due to the time commitment to get your levels up (not to mention the time it takes to get the rare ingredients to make them)

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

I agree here, when this system came out to me (and a lot of my in-game friends who crafted) the countless hours sitting in front of the machines and trying to get to the top crafting levels (which isn't as easy as it appears some devs may think due to getting less xp everytime you make a shard than the last time) was all worth it because you could end up with customizable +5 X burst greater X bane items that were super rare drops with the right material type of base item, and at the time were great end game raid weapons. Being able to move around the +6 stat with flexible shards (and +6 was pretty much the top) was a cherry on top, especially for TR's.

But again main reason was making the top end stuff. Going into Elite shroud with a +5 anarchic burst adamantine maul of greater construct bane for part 1, and being able to swap to a +5 holy burst silver greatsword of greater evil outsider bane for Harry - that was why we crafted as trying to find those exact top end perfect combinations was almost impossible! And because of how much time and resources it took to get to those top crafting level, raids were NOT filled with those weapons with everyone running around with that making everything else obsolete- it was still fairly rare to see due to the time commitment to get your levels up (not to mention the time it takes to get the rare ingredients to make them)

+1

Agree 100%. I think people are overlooking just how much of a grind it is to get to those top crafting levels, even now, not to mention if they raise the top levels.

I got mine to mid 70's ish, just to make serviceable beaters back in the day. Could do a +4 holy of evil outsider bane for harry, etc.


And it IS WORTH REPEATING.......that when CC was introduced, YOU COULD MAKE WHAT WAS THEN THE TOP LEVEL LOOT GEN IN GAME. (With several exceptions, disruption, vorpal, +15 skill etc)

Why don't we CC now? Because random loot is better in every way.

What happens if random loot is still better in every way after the update?

CC will continue to be mostly ignored.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Why don't we CC now? Because random loot is better in every way.
This, and CC items only last about 10 levels. Rogue +13 skill items that can be worn at L9 last a bit longer, but that's about it. Even pre-New Random Loot CC items didn't have much longevity, and that shrunk enormously with the NRL. I've got sheltering 4 stuff and doublestrike/shot stuff and dodge stuff, and spell power and lore items that put CC to shame, on L3-5 characters. And a lot of that is on chars who have never even looked at the AH, they just found this stuff by running quests. Green, standard drops. If CC can't make items that are their equal then CC is dead on arrival. Why spend hours working on CC skill when you can get the same or better benefit and also play the game at the same time?

[JOTMON]

Nobody wants to invest hundreds of non gaming hours deconstructing and hunting ingredients to have a system that crafts stuff inferior to all randomgen.. we have that now...

Crafting needs to be almost as good as any regular randomgen item if the crafting level is appropriate.. and as good if the crafting skill supports it.. (by enhancing it masterful/wonderous/quality/etc..)
While I can appreciate not being able to craft the perfect stars aligned item like a +15 stat /+7 insightful stat +blue augment slot ... I should be able to craft an item 2 levels higher than would drop on any randomgen ..
so if a randomgen can drop (non-wonderous/masterful) at 28.. a top level crafter should be able to craft it for level 30.. it may not be easy to craft.. but the possibility should be there..



I would like to see Cannith crafting add options to craft side effects that lower the level of the item being crafted.. like how the old named items used to..

Take the Bloodrage Symbiot before they screwed with poison/disease immunity and added magic /DR low level items and completely screwed this neat item..
Was a great item(especially when heading to Menechtarun) .. with side effects that made it worth getting until they screwed the poison/disease immunity and turned it into .. meh... just carry stacks of pots you are going to fail your saves anyway..

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bloodrage_Symbiont
Rage — 3 Charges (Recharged/Day:3)
Constitution -2
DR 5/-
Will Save -2
Proof Against Poison +6 (used to be immunity to poison)
Proof Against Disease +6 (used to be immunity to disease)
~Losing 2 con to gain dr5/- was potentially trade-off whorthwile in place of wearing something else.


being able to apply negatives to crafted items would allow us to craft traditionally higher level items to be usable at lower levels while making us vulnerable to side effects..
Race restrictive.. etc...
could even create a pool of eligible side effects based on crafted effects.. more fire power=cold vulnerability options... the ying/yang factor...

[Mglaxix]

Crafting to me was for my TR lives. I almost never used named BtC gear unless I was unable to craft something similar or more useful as a base item for myself. Now mind you I crafted on BtA gear so that I could store it for later lives on my mules. I have full sets of gear from lvl 3 to lvl 15 or so. After all having a secret door detection trinket at lvl 1 gets me bonus xp in quests from time to time. Flexible stat crafting was very useful to slot in those items I could not craft or live without.

However when the Wheloon chain came out the +8 Stat items at 15 invalidated some of my crafted loot. I adjusted my gear and moved on. I can understand not being able to craft the highest lvl named gear in the game. ie balance. No one can make it plain and simple that's why it's named loot.( ie old CC +15 skills were out of reach ) These items must and should remain the highest tier gear in the game plain and simple. Crafting a Hardy +16 Ring of False Life +55 with a side effect of Insightful False Life 15 is just way to OP.

Crafting in it's current state to me is pointless to me I crafted my gear I have my gear I need nothing more. In order for me to take an interest in crafting again I would expect to be able to Craft with Wondrous Marks instead of Masterful. Create similar tier Items I have pulled from RanGen Loot. ( ie Ring of Con +10 & Dex +10 Lvl 21 Masterful item ) Creating new Wizardry items would be nice and Insightful would prove very useful in crafting a balance must be struck. No idea what max is on these are at current but max should never be obtainable. Skill crafting should be a few points below max as well balance balance balance.

Crafting Paralyzing Banishing Smiting Disruption should either be included or this loot should be dropping.......... How are new players to obtain a +1 Smiting Greatsword Race required min lvl 8 unless it is dropping.......... I am not about to put mine on the AH are you........

The latest loot gen pass did invalidate my full Epic Abashi Gear set I created on my Main toon with random loot gen. How is that balance.

Epic Boots of Corrosion, Epic Charged Gauntlets, Epic Diabolist's Docent, Epic Envenomed Cloak, Epic Goggles of Time-Sensing, Epic Helm of Frost, Epic Scorched Bracers , Epic Ring of Elemental Essence.

This was my base 20 gear for all my epic lives no doubt about it. I won't even need to break it out of my TR cache next life....... This gear set took a lot of commitment to build Seals, Shards, and Scrolls yet I expect to fully replace it with RanGen Loot????? How can that be.... Alas the Gods of DDO are so unkind.

To me it is no longer a question of overhauling the CC system in place but balancing gear as a whole....... Comms of Heroism upgrades for my older Epic Gear fine. Allow me to upgrade it and still keep it relevant at lvl 20.

+6 stats used to be top of the game moved up to +8 stats. We have now moved Stats to a staggering +16 or above Crafting should be moved up in line with current loot system with limitations.

Sure we can all agree that a +16 item should have a min lvl sure we can all agree it should take a lot of rare ingredients not currently in our bags. But keep in mind if I could craft a +16 Stat item I would certainly have a full set of Epic TR gear as well. Keeping this in mind I would be willing to accept a lower Stat bonus as long as flexible were available to me.

I have wanted to see augments we could craft on. They could even make Purple Orange Green augments that are only craftable maybe some new House C challenges for these....... One new challenge per color perhaps. ( K.I.S.S - Keep It Simple Stupid )

To maintain game balance a system must be put in place that balances with the current state of the game if I can loot it on low level items I should be able to craft it. Have a set of armor +6 stat at lvl 2 BtC.... perhaps a bit unfair but Turbine built the loot gen system in place not me.

In the future I would hope that Turbine would look at current and past named loot and not invalidate those items we have all worked so hard to obtain with RanGen loot drops.



I have played this game a long time and never complained thru the lag the updates the rollbacks or anything else I have supported this game throughout its struggles as well as it great moments. When I first toured Kings Forest I was amazed at the direction the game was headed graphically, Quests that ran in a direction that made sense, Epic Destinys, Epic TRing and building a game that could survive a long time thru innovation and improvement always keeping in mind that keeping your clients happy means that we will always support our game of choice but it is our choice after all keep us happy.

MG out

[SuperNiCd]

Quoted for truth.

Investing the time and opportunity cost into building your characters crafting skills needs to provide a meaningful return or it is pointless. If a crafter at level cap is wearing lootgen items and not crafted items, then what value is being realized for the investment?

In the very many hours it requires standing at an annoying (buggy, requires frequent closing and re-opening to continue to function) crafting interface instead of playing the game in order to build your skill up you can pull literally hundreds if not thousands of chests. In that same time not spent standing at a crafting interface you are also:

Pulling plat, scrolls, potions, lootgen items;
Picking up Mysterious Remnants for nice rewards;
Earning Guild Renown;
Collecting Eberron and Siberys dragonshards for Stone of Change rituals and trap the soul components;
Finding Collectables for lots of uses;
Earning Favor/TP;
Picking up Scrolls/Seals/Shards for Epic Crafting;
Completing quest chains for guaranteed rewards;
Building raids towards your 20th completions;
Working on Sagas for XP/Guild Renown/Tomes;
Earning XP and Karma and filling out Epic Destinys;
Filling in your MM for XP, TP, Remnants, companions, and intelligence on the monsters;
Potentially pulling named drops and the occasional rare item such as a tome or Purified Dragonshard fragment or etc.

I am certain that the above list is not comprehensive. The best way to sum it up, however, is that instead of spending a very many hours standing at a crafting interface you are actually playing the game!

If all the sacrifice enumerated above does not manage to result in the character being able to craft items which they will wear in preference to the random lootgen items they can find in the course of simply playing the game rather than building their crafting skills, then there is something seriously wrong with the crafting system.

Signed. Well said. If any devs read this or someone on the PC can take it forward for us, please count me as another player who feels this way. While I agree a revised CC can't be overpowered, it does need to be "fully-powered", so to speak. The extreme grind one has to put into getting the levels and the ingredients (ongoing) has to result some kind of advantage. Otherwise, what's the point. The crafting leveling process in and of itself is not fun and basically equates to real time and game resource consumption - lots of it. Really looking forward to the U32 update CCUP. It has been a long wait. Hope the devs are able to find the right balance! That would be a big win.

[Uska]

Nobody wants to invest hundreds of non gaming hours deconstructing and hunting ingredients to have a system that crafts stuff inferior to all randomgen.. we have that now...

Crafting needs to be almost as good as any regular randomgen item if the crafting level is appropriate.. and as good if the crafting skill supports it.. (by enhancing it masterful/wonderous/quality/etc..)
While I can appreciate not being able to craft the perfect stars aligned item like a +15 stat /+7 insightful stat +blue augment slot ... I should be able to craft an item 2 levels higher than would drop on any randomgen ..
so if a randomgen can drop (non-wonderous/masterful) at 28.. a top level crafter should be able to craft it for level 30.. it may not be easy to craft.. but the possibility should be there..



I would like to see Cannith crafting add options to craft side effects that lower the level of the item being crafted.. like how the old named items used to..

Take the Bloodrage Symbiot before they screwed with poison/disease immunity and added magic /DR low level items and completely screwed this neat item..
Was a great item(especially when heading to Menechtarun) .. with side effects that made it worth getting until they screwed the poison/disease immunity and turned it into .. meh... just carry stacks of pots you are going to fail your saves anyway..

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bloodrage_Symbiont
Rage — 3 Charges (Recharged/Day:3)
Constitution -2
DR 5/-
Will Save -2
Proof Against Poison +6 (used to be immunity to poison)
Proof Against Disease +6 (used to be immunity to disease)
~Losing 2 con to gain dr5/- was potentially trade-off whorthwile in place of wearing something else.


being able to apply negatives to crafted items would allow us to craft traditionally higher level items to be usable at lower levels while making us vulnerable to side effects..
Race restrictive.. etc...
could even create a pool of eligible side effects based on crafted effects.. more fire power=cold vulnerability options... the ying/yang factor...

I agree crafting needs to be almost as good as loot gen maybe 15+ or 16+ VS 17+ as an example I don't think it should be fully as good since you can get what you want where you want it, but since it is a lot of work it shouldn't be significantly less

[Dandonk]

Signed. Well said. If any devs read this or someone on the PC can take it forward for us, please count me as another player who feels this way. While I agree a revised CC can't be overpowered, it does need to be "fully-powered", so to speak. The extreme grind one has to put into getting the levels and the ingredients (ongoing) has to result some kind of advantage. Otherwise, what's the point. The crafting leveling process in and of itself is not fun and basically equates to real time and game resource consumption - lots of it. Really looking forward to the U32 update CCUP. It has been a long wait. Hope the devs are able to find the right balance! That would be a big win.

I agree completely. Keep fighting the good fight! :)

[dunklezhan]

It occurs to me that maybe what Sev was getting at is that they don't want people with already maxed crafting to suddenly be able to make the best loot after the overhaul, rather than that they don't want crafting to be able to make the most powerful lootgen effects. I can see how that would "invalidate" random loot so soon after it had its own overhaul.

Just in case that is what's being got at let me say: I would be totally ok if you increase the max crafting levels, meaning that we have to work our way up to the new top. The game's had a level cap increase, I don't see why CC shouldn't. It could be huge - it could go to 500 or something crazy like that given the additional 10 levels of game it has to serve.

But once you reach the new maximum, you should be able to make all the prefix and suffix effects, and ideally either add or certainly upgrade augment slots (red or blue to purple for example). I would prefer if hidden effects could also be possible to deliberately create, but there ought to exist a rare ingredient or possibly even a store/favour only item that is involved and it shouldn't be 'free' in terms of ML of the item.

Also as top level BTA only recipe: jewellers kit. Should probably require crunching an augment gem to make.

[JOTMON]

It occurs to me that maybe what Sev was getting at is that they don't want people with already maxed crafting to suddenly be able to make the best loot after the overhaul, rather than that they don't want crafting to be able to make the most powerful lootgen effects. I can see how that would "invalidate" random loot so soon after it had its own overhaul.

Just in case that is what's being got at let me say: I would be totally ok if you increase the max crafting levels, meaning that we have to work our way up to the new top. The game's had a level cap increase, I don't see why CC shouldn't. It could be huge - it could go to 500 or something crazy like that given the additional 10 levels of game it has to serve.

But once you reach the new maximum, you should be able to make all the prefix and suffix effects, and ideally either add or certainly upgrade augment slots (red or blue to purple for example). I would prefer if hidden effects could also be possible to deliberately create, but there ought to exist a rare ingredient or possibly even a store/favour only item that is involved and it shouldn't be 'free' in terms of ML of the item.

Also as top level BTA only recipe: jewellers kit. Should probably require crunching an augment gem to make.

Well we would expect a level increase for crafting, but I wouldn't expect to see those of us who maxxed crafting to get 'screwed' because we dedicated the time and effort to max crafting levels.
Crafting is a time sink after all, so invalidating/punishing those that put the effort in to be able to craft future items that were supposed to be added while we were levelling.. but fell off the in progress table into the look at it later bin.

as to the 3rd effect..
could even have it not craftable, but have it innately part of the item, so it doesn't cleanse off.. treat it like augment slots..
Then they could be used as a bonus base to build up from.. all we need is a better AH system to sort/search filter all items by any attribute... which we want anyway..




Also as top level BTA only recipe: jewellers kit. Should probably require crunching an augment gem to make.

Not sure what you mean here.
you want to make jeweller's kits?

[dunklezhan]

Not sure what you mean here.
you want to make jeweller's kits?

Why wouldn't I want to make jeweller's kits? There's no other way to get them in game short of loot lottery or store. No turn ins, no favor rewards... why shouldn't it be a perk for cannith crafting for the few people who bother to grind up to maxed out levels? They're crafting masters. Seems like they ought to be able to remove augments. Its an idle suggestion though its not on my 'must haves' list.

[dunklezhan]

Well we would expect a level increase for crafting, but I wouldn't expect to see those of us who maxxed crafting to get 'screwed' because we dedicated the time and effort to max crafting levels.
Crafting is a time sink after all, so invalidating/punishing those that put the effort in to be able to craft future items that were supposed to be added while we were levelling.. but fell off the in progress table into the look at it later bin.


Don't disagree with you here. Not suggesting anyone gets screwed out of their effort, least of all me, thanks very much!

I'm suggesting that those with 150 crafting levels now should keep their levels, and whatever recipes the levels entitle them to in the new system. My further assumption/condition there would be that 150 crafting levels should still make recipes more or less equivalent in power to those you could make under the current CC system, just with updated effects to align with current lootgen of that power level. Note I'm talking equivalent power level, not minimum loot level (so some of the high minimum loot level CC stuff is available many levels lower in lootgen at the moment. CC power vs minimum level is totally out of whack).

I'm just talking about increasing the cap so that to reach the new top end effects which far outstrip anything in the game before, you need to go back to levelling.



as to the 3rd effect..
could even have it not craftable, but have it innately part of the item, so it doesn't cleanse off.. treat it like augment slots..
Then they could be used as a bonus base to build up from.. all we need is a better AH system to sort/search filter all items by any attribute... which we want anyway..


That would work for me, yes. Metal type, augments, and bonus effects stay fixed (I still want to be able to upgrade augment slots if I reach crafting cap mind you)

[Uska]

Why wouldn't I want to make jeweller's kits? There's no other way to get them in game short of loot lottery or store. No turn ins, no favor rewards... why shouldn't it be a perk for cannith crafting for the few people who bother to grind up to maxed out levels? They're crafting masters. Seems like they ought to be able to remove augments. Its an idle suggestion though its not on my 'must haves' list.

Seems like a good idea if they can make sure they cant be duped and then make them unbound and you could sell them(not me I wont craft)

[dunklezhan]

Seems like a good idea if they can make sure they cant be duped and then make them unbound and you could sell them(not me I wont craft)

I don't really think they should be unbound. This is one of those things where this is an income stream for turbine. I think free-ish (ingredients would still be needed) jewellers kits for personal use is a nice thing for crafters to have that won't affect the bottom line by much because lets face it not many people will max out a crafting toon*, and jewellers kits won't be that enticing. Kits would be a nice to have only.

*incidentally its this that also means you can let crafting have the top level lootgen in it - just as with current crafting, the top level recipes simply shouldn't be available unbound. That's the enticement to level crafting in the first place, it gives you a way to get things yourself that you can't otherwise get except through sheer blind luck, and you can help others get up the ladder - but if they want the best they too need to put in the work personally, or get really lucky. That keeps random loot desirable. Or at least, no less desirable than currently.