12 ranger base small tutorial

[01000010]

Recently ive seen some new players claim things like "rangers are either bow or twf", this shows a clear lack of understanding of how the enhancment system works, and that must be very frustrating, so here are a couple build example using the 12 ranger base to great advantage.

First off, ranger levels give both ranged feats(usful with all ranged and thrown weapons) and twf feats that are very nice but if you dont pay attention can lull you into a serious lack of creativity when creating a build.

The key to building characters that arent like every other ranger a first year player would build is the deepwood sniper tree.

The main components are the third and fourth cores and the ability to get dex to damage for bows thrown and finessable for only 7 AP.

The third core gives either sniper shot(extremely powerful on ranged builds) or exposing strike which is very strong on any melee, more so if you attack fast or have a lots of sneak dice(also available in DWS tree).

The fourth core for 21 AP gives +1 crit range for ANY WEAPON. There are many other great dps increasing enhancements in the tree, but those are key.

12 ranger isnt the cutoff, you might take 15 ranger to get cure serious and FOM and 5 in another class for tier 5, etc.

So here are a few examples, i wont go into great detail for fear of nerfs, just enough to show you the possibilities.


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12-15ranger/5-8bard/0-3whatever SWF

How it works, DWS crit range increase stacks with swashbuckler on weapons like rapier where swashbuckling only increases multiplier, you have room to take a couple barb for run speed and knockout, or you can go 7 bard for displacement and good hope, tier 5 in swashbuckler ofc. One of the strongest SWF build possible, 12-15 ranger...

Just for fun(not strongest build but great example of creative thinking), same lvl ranges as above, repeater build, int to dmg from harper and you can coup de grac with a repeater, repeater would still get increased crit range from DWS.


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12-17ranger/3-6monk/0-2whatever SHURIKEN

How it works, no need to be a halfling since you can get crit range from DWS core, Sniper Shot FTW, if you take DWS dex to Dmg you dont need to be centered, this opens the build up a bit so you can:

Be in full plate if you chose, use a tower shield if you chose, use a runearm if you take 2 artie as the whatever. Full metal Shuriken is a fun build, been using versions for years.

Ranger also opens up AA tree way cheaper than elves, FYI

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12-15ranger/5-8barb/0-3whatever - Two handed or TWF or both

Frenz Bers Tier 5 +2 multiplier on 19-20, stack up just fine with comp bonuses to crit range from DWS, nice combo with some named 2h axes... Knockout then BAM single target, or be a cleave ranger.

If you want to spend the points you could go twf and get both the crit range from DWS and the core 4 crit multiplier from tempest and combine that with the +2 multiplier on 19-20.


Ive got a ton more combos using 12+ ranger, the ones i showed here are strong, but it can get better.

[01000010]

recently ive seen some new players claim things like "rangers are either bow or twf", this shows a clear lack of understanding of how the enhancment system works, and that must be very frustrating, so here are a couple build example using the 12 ranger base to great advantage.

First off, ranger levels give both ranged feats(usful with all ranged and thrown weapons) and twf feats that are very nice but if you dont pay attention can lull you into a serious lack of creativity when creating a build.

The key to building characters that arent like every other ranger a first year player would build is the deepwood sniper tree.

The main components are the third and fourth cores and the ability to get dex to damage for bows thrown and finessable for only 7 ap.

The third core gives either sniper shot(extremely powerful on ranged builds) or exposing strike which is very strong on any melee, more so if you attack fast or have a lots of sneak dice(also available in dws tree).

The fourth core for 21 ap gives +1 crit range for any weapon. There are many other great dps increasing enhancements in the tree, but those are key.

12 ranger isnt the cutoff, you might take 15 ranger to get cure serious and fom and 5 in another class for tier 5, etc.

So here are a few examples, i wont go into great detail for fear of nerfs, just enough to show you the possibilities.


================================================== ===========================
12-15ranger/5-8bard/0-3whatever swf

how it works, dws crit range increase stacks with swashbuckler on weapons like rapier where swashbuckling only increases multiplier, you have room to take a couple barb for run speed and knockout, or you can go 7 bard for displacement and good hope, tier 5 in swashbuckler ofc. One of the strongest swf build possible, 12-15 ranger...

Just for fun(not strongest build but great example of creative thinking), same lvl ranges as above, repeater build, int to dmg from harper and you can coup de grac with a repeater, repeater would still get increased crit range from dws.


================================================== ===========================
12-17ranger/3-6monk/0-2whatever shuriken

how it works, no need to be a halfling since you can get crit range from dws core, sniper shot ftw, if you take dws dex to dmg you dont need to be centered, this opens the build up a bit so you can:

Be in full plate if you chose, use a tower shield if you chose, use a runearm if you take 2 artie as the whatever. Full metal shuriken is a fun build, been using versions for years.

Ranger also opens up aa tree way cheaper than elves, fyi

================================================== ===========================
12-15ranger/5-8barb/0-3whatever - two handed or twf or both

frenz bers tier 5 +2 multiplier on 19-20, stack up just fine with comp bonuses to crit range from dws, nice combo with some named 2h axes... Knockout then bam single target, or be a cleave ranger.

If you want to spend the points you could go twf and get both the crit range from dws and the core 4 crit multiplier from tempest and combine that with the +2 multiplier on 19-20.


Ive got a ton more combos using 12+ ranger, the ones i showed here are strong, but it can get better.

unneeded

[Coyopa]

12-17ranger/3-6monk/0-2whatever SHURIKEN

How it works, no need to be a halfling since you can get crit range from DWS core, Sniper Shot FTW, if you take DWS dex to Dmg you dont need to be centered, this opens the build up a bit so you can:

Be in full plate if you chose, use a tower shield if you chose, use a runearm if you take 2 artie as the whatever. Full metal Shuriken is a fun build, been using versions for years.

Ranger also opens up AA tree way cheaper than elves, FYI

First, a note about the bolded part: AA isn't supposed to work with thrown weapons. This is a bug and has been stated as such by the developers. I wouldn't recommend people plan their builds around this since it could change at any time. (Yes, I know it's been this way for four years. It still could change any time.) However, if you don't plan your build around that and simply use it as icing on top of the already fun ranger thrower build cake, it's a nice addition for the time that it works.

I currently have a level 30 thrower build that is 12 ranger/7 bard/1 arti. The arti level gives me trapping skills, which are sufficient for everything except for the highest level quests on EE and LE. I took the 7 bard primarily for Displacement, which you mentioned in a part of your post that I snipped out. One thing to note about that is that it really requires Extend Spell to be worthwhile. With 7 levels of bard, you only get about 48 seconds of Displacement per cast and keeping an eye on that is a real pain in the ***. However, having bard songs to use (12), lets me twist in Reign and that's a really powerful ability on this build (probably most builds). Most of the rest of Fatesinger really sucks, but that ability is good enough to be all the compensation you need to suffer through leveling Fatesinger. I also like having Sonic Blast for breakables. With 11 points spent in Swashbuckler, you get a 30% doubleshot action boost, too (which, as far as I can tell, is the only tree to feature such a boost). For another 2 points, you get a defensive boost from Elegant Footwork (20% chance of knock-down when an enemy misses you). And, if you're willing to give up wielding anything in your off-hand, you can get another 10% doubleshot from Dashing Scoundrel. (I'll be honest: Celestia is good enough to off-set the loss of 12% doubleshot [the extra 2% coming from Swashbuckler cores level 3 and 6] and 6 damage.)

[Cantor]

It seems like you are just going out of your way to build something without the best synergy. The only thing I can really see here is a bard/ranger exclusively using rapiers (gets you holy sword profile but with swash and evasion). Is the point of this post interesting ways to get ranger past lives? Seems like there are much more obvious builds that bring more to the table in the long run. As far as throwers go, until they do something to bring other weapons in line with shurikens anything else is mostly flavor.

[01000010]

First, a note about the bolded part: AA isn't supposed to work with thrown weapons. This is a bug and has been stated as such by the developers. I wouldn't recommend people plan their builds around this since it could change at any time. (Yes, I know it's been this way for four years. It still could change any time.) However, if you don't plan your build around that and simply use it as icing on top of the already fun ranger thrower build cake, it's a nice addition for the time that it works.

I currently have a level 30 thrower build that is 12 ranger/7 bard/1 arti. The arti level gives me trapping skills, which are sufficient for everything except for the highest level quests on EE and LE. I took the 7 bard primarily for Displacement, which you mentioned in a part of your post that I snipped out. One thing to note about that is that it really requires Extend Spell to be worthwhile. With 7 levels of bard, you only get about 48 seconds of Displacement per cast and keeping an eye on that is a real pain in the ***. However, having bard songs to use (12), lets me twist in Reign and that's a really powerful ability on this build (probably most builds). Most of the rest of Fatesinger really sucks, but that ability is good enough to be all the compensation you need to suffer through leveling Fatesinger. I also like having Sonic Blast for breakables. With 11 points spent in Swashbuckler, you get a 30% doubleshot action boost, too (which, as far as I can tell, is the only tree to feature such a boost). For another 2 points, you get a defensive boost from Elegant Footwork (20% chance of knock-down when an enemy misses you). And, if you're willing to give up wielding anything in your off-hand, you can get another 10% doubleshot from Dashing Scoundrel. (I'll be honest: Celestia is good enough to off-set the loss of 12% doubleshot [the extra 2% coming from Swashbuckler cores level 3 and 6] and 6 damage.)

As far as AA working with all ranged weapons goes, it seems entirely logical to me. Did a dev say its not WAI? Ive never seen it and ive looked. If someone baited cordovan into saying it, well, wouldnt be the first time he said something entirely inaccurate and hes not a dev.

Anyway, whatever the case ill certainly continue using it until it is actually changed, note i didnt say fixed, to fix it in my bood they would have to make the entire tree work for all ranged weapons.

I agree extend is nice on any multiclassed bard.

[Enoach]

Some of the best features of the Ranger class is:


Access to Two Weapon Fighting feats without need for meeting the Dexterity Requirements
Access to Bow Feats without need for meeting the Dexterity Requirements
Evasion with 9 Levels
Access to Spells such as Ram's might and Cure spells


These features allow for Strength, Wisdom (Monk Multi), Dexterity (Elf), Intelligence (Harper Tree) or when mixed with Bard Swashbuckler SWF (Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence) or PDK Charisma with specific weapons (Swords) to be a characters Primary Attribute.

You are correct ranger levels allow for lots of flexibility.

As for cost on AA between Ranger and Elf, I think this is very dependent on if the Build is also after the Elf Dexterity for To-Hit and Damage enhancements, Grace and Eleven Weapon Training IV. Also if you were planning on using the Dragon Marks for Displacement etc. So cost needs to be compared with availability to the build.

[Yalinaa]

I'm pleased with the 12 ranger / 8 fighter split on my dps, but thanks for the advices.

[CrackedIce]

Recently ive seen some new players claim things like "rangers are either bow or twf", this shows a clear lack of understanding of how the enhancment system works, and that must be very frustrating, so here are a couple build example using the 12 ranger base to great advantage.

First off, ranger levels give both ranged feats(usful with all ranged and thrown weapons) and twf feats that are very nice but if you dont pay attention can lull you into a serious lack of creativity when creating a build.

The key to building characters that arent like every other ranger a first year player would build is the deepwood sniper tree.

The main components are the third and fourth cores and the ability to get dex to damage for bows thrown and finessable for only 7 AP.

.


I brought this up a while back as making full use as a switch hitter with capitalizing on double strike and double shot.

Post was "Switch bitter - hybrid fighting style compendium". Of course, people just did not see the synergy.

Sorry, I do not know how to link, but can try this:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467756-Switch-bitter-hybrid-fighting-style-compendium

[Coyopa]

As far as AA working with all ranged weapons goes, it seems entirely logical to me. Did a dev say its not WAI? Ive never seen it and ive looked. If someone baited cordovan into saying it, well, wouldnt be the first time he said something entirely inaccurate and hes not a dev.

Anyway, whatever the case ill certainly continue using it until it is actually changed, note i didnt say fixed, to fix it in my bood they would have to make the entire tree work for all ranged weapons.

I agree extend is nice on any multiclassed bard.

It's been said on the forums, and I've also spoken with Steelstar in the DDO Chat. (I forget the URL for this DDO Chat. I'll try to find it.) Plus, it's very obvious that it's not supposed to work with thrown weapons since you have to equip a bow, activate the primary imbue, then switch to your thrown weapon. And that has to be done each time you change imbues. Another reason it's clear: The secondary imbues do not work with thrown weapons.

[walkin_dude]

it's very obvious that it's not supposed to work with thrown weapons since you have to equip a bow, activate the primary imbue, then switch to your thrown weapon. And that has to be done each time you change imbues. Another reason it's clear: The secondary imbues do not work with thrown weapons.

Wait, that's not WAI?!

[Gauthaag]

It's been said on the forums, and I've also spoken with Steelstar in the DDO Chat. (I forget the URL for this DDO Chat. I'll try to find it.) Plus, it's very obvious that it's not supposed to work with thrown weapons since you have to equip a bow, activate the primary imbue, then switch to your thrown weapon. And that has to be done each time you change imbues. Another reason it's clear: The secondary imbues do not work with thrown weapons.

cool, for putting almost step by step

[Grailhawk]

I agree that Stalker allows for fine SWF, or THF builds and a SWF or THF Ranger is better of then a Kensei even. But TWF and all the stuff in Tempest is just better. So if you have 12 levels of Ranger and are not TWF and spending points in you just have a flavor build. Tempest + TWF >> then anything else a 12 ranger can do.

I'll leave the comments on ranged to some one who knows it better.

[CrackedIce]

I agree that Stalker allows for fine SWF, or THF builds and a SWF or THF Ranger is better of then a Kensei even. But TWF and all the stuff in Tempest is just better. So if you have 12 levels of Ranger and are not TWF and spending points in you just have a flavor build. Tempest + TWF >> then anything else a 12 ranger can do.

I'll leave the comments on ranged to some one who knows it better.

Agreed.

The only reason not to go twf on a ranger is only if you want to maximize your ranged abilities. DOD and tempest tree is just that much better. However, if you truly want to be able to be good at both ranged and melee, twf is not the way to go (IMHO).

[01000010]

It's been said on the forums, and I've also spoken with Steelstar in the DDO Chat. (I forget the URL for this DDO Chat. I'll try to find it.) Plus, it's very obvious that it's not supposed to work with thrown weapons since you have to equip a bow, activate the primary imbue, then switch to your thrown weapon. And that has to be done each time you change imbues. Another reason it's clear: The secondary imbues do not work with thrown weapons.

Im even pretty sure it was you specifically who said it, lol. You say a dev said its not WAI, then theres no evidence, but seriously devs make proclamations all the time that are flat out wrong because they dont know the game that well, take the recent chest level deal, i think 3 devs said it was wai, players knew better.

As before ill state i also believe the way it works now is a bug, and that its obvious you shouldnt have to equip bows to activate the stances the first time, unlike you i dont assume the bug is that an entire tree accessable by any type of build is supposed to be bow specific and isnt, i do not think its a bug the core imbues dont work with non bows because they sepecifacally say bow required, matter of fact i think all of the enhancements that state bow required actually require a bow to use, hmm. Occams razor man, which of us make less assumptions?

I dont know what to tell you all if you cant see the synergies.

Really, increased crit range combined with any other tier 5 in the game(obviously youd avoid the ones that add comp bonus to crit range) is a pretty extreme synergy unless youre casting spells primarily, crits matter right? sneak damage matters right?

How about this one, the DWS action boost adds to both ranged and melee power, so if you are ranging your base damage is increased by ranged power and sneak damage is then increase by melee power from same boost.

The synergies just require more awareness than usual(assuming usual means what everyone else sees automatically), heres another, kukri, wether swashbuckling or using assassin knife spec.

Ive given all the hints i can without jeopardizing my characters, i find it sad that even has to be a consideration, but it does.

Learn to think outside the box unless you want to live in a box with everyone else.

People calling the 12 ranger base a "flavor build" are seriously clueless, lol. If you really cant see how to use this to your advantage dpswise on multiple types of characters you need to step back, lose your programmed preconceptions and just tinker with a bunch of builds you never tried before, youll learn so much. Learning is good folks.

As someone stated before depending on the Tier 5 class you go with you can synergise any stat if thats what people are so hung up on they cant appreciate crit range and sneak damage, lol. Even the hard to synergize wisdom on ranged builds.

Anyhow, think before you speak, try before you assume, lose ignorance and prejudice.

[01000010]

ill always be amazed by how people can play this game for years and still make sweeping generalizations about builds and classes, unbelievable.

[01000010]

I'm pleased with the 12 ranger / 8 fighter split on my dps, but thanks for the advices.

Not a bad build, all those feats for some nice melee power to multiply the extra/higher crits even more.

Additionally i imagine the upcoming kensai will make the build even stronger.

[Grailhawk]

Really, increased crit range combined with any other tier 5 in the game(obviously youd avoid the ones that add comp bonus to crit range) is a pretty extreme synergy unless youre casting spells primarily, crits matter right? sneak damage matters right?

The increased crit range has more synergy with an increased crit multiplier. Which is found in Tempest core 12 and requires TWF to work.


People calling the 12 ranger base a "flavor build" are seriously clueless, lol.

Yes, a 12 melee Ranger who ignores free feat and the classes strongest tree is a flavor build. Is Ranger so over powered that even flavor build using the class are OP? Yes! They are still OP, but still weaker then TWF Rangers.

[unbongwah]

As before ill state i also believe the way it works now is a bug, and that its obvious you shouldnt have to equip bows to activate the stances the first time, unlike you i dont assume the bug is that an entire tree accessable by any type of build is supposed to be bow specific and isnt, i do not think its a bug the core imbues dont work with non bows because they sepecifacally say bow required, matter of fact i think all of the enhancements that state bow required actually require a bow to use, hmm. Occams razor man, which of us make less assumptions?
All of the descriptions for imbues in the AA tree - both primary and secondary - specifically state "arrows" or "bows."

Go ahead and check, I'll wait. :cool:

Now, since we know you can't fire arrows with anything but a bow, to employ Occam's Razor as we are, the two most likely explanations are either the descriptions are wrong or the imbues are bugged. Given all the evidence - namely dev comments in the past, secondary imbues not working with xbows or thrown weapons, imbue bug was introduced with U19 (IIRC), etc. - my money's on imbues being bugged and not WAI.

This is not a new issue; imbues have been like this for a long time, as have a lot of other bugs - both good & bad (e.g., Swashbuckling crit multiplier not applying to thrown weapons, TWF feats applying to wolf form). But just because a long-standing bug hasn't been fixed yet doesn't mean it will never be fixed.

The special atks, OTOH, all say "Ranged Archery Attack: perform a ranged attack..." which is a little more ambiguous, IMO. The first part implies it's only meant to work with archery / bows, but "ranged attack" is generic. Then again, there are things in Tempest labeled "Dual Wielding Melee Attack" which work with any melee combat style not just TWF (e.g. Dance of Death); so again the obvious explanation is that either they're bugged or the descriptions are wrong.

[Enoach]

On AA stances and throwing weapons we have a feature that does not work without using some additional steps.

While that is not proof that it should not be working that way, it is also not proof that it should be. I agree if someone is willing to go the extra steps then they should enjoy it. However, at the same time they should not get upset {which usually happens with things like this when the Development finally removes the workaround} when Development changes the system and it does not work.

Features that Turbine has decided should not work together but do should always be used with the caution that you might login after an update and find you can't use it, or you may find it working a different way.

---------------
Now you are correct that the changes to the Enhancements for Ranger as well as features that exist with the class do make for good synergies with critical profile and/or sneak attack. However, the ranger levels have some pre-selected feats that will be in a build and not be used. Much like a Pure Ranger who only uses a bow and never pulls out two weapons, or the opposite never pulls out a bow. Or even worse a build with evasion and an extremely low reflex save, or wears heavier then light armor.

The question becomes would different class levels actually provide more, be it DPS or Defensive features.

Now not all classes are finished, we might see some interesting things with Fighter Enhancement changes (as you've stated), or even changes that will make Druid or even Monk better options with Wisdom as a primary attribute.

[01000010]

The increased crit range has more synergy with an increased crit multiplier. Which is found in Tempest core 12 and requires TWF to work.



Yes, a 12 melee Ranger who ignores free feat and the classes strongest tree is a flavor build. Is Ranger so over powered that even flavor build using the class are OP? Yes! They are still OP, but still weaker then TWF Rangers.

More? not at all, you are saying +1 crit range has more synergy with +1 multiplier from tempest core than it does from +1 multiplier from other trees? its the exact same, now consider that those other sources offer other things to a build you cant get from DWS or tempest.

Am i saying dws and tempest with 2wf isnt strong, ofc not, thats be as silly as you claiming +1 extra crit range on a swashbuckler isnt strong.

All fighters get tower shield proficiency as free feats, are you saying fighters not using a shield based attack style are flavor builds too? same logic.

What server you on, ill make a 1st life build and run with your tempest ranger and well compare, no bs, ill prove its not weaker.

[01000010]

All of the descriptions for imbues in the AA tree - both primary and secondary - specifically state "arrows" or "bows."

Go ahead and check, I'll wait. :cool:

Now, since we know you can't fire arrows with anything but a bow, to employ Occam's Razor as we are, the two most likely explanations are either the descriptions are wrong or the imbues are bugged. Given all the evidence - namely dev comments in the past, secondary imbues not working with xbows or thrown weapons, imbue bug was introduced with U19 (IIRC), etc. - my money's on imbues being bugged and not WAI.

This is not a new issue; imbues have been like this for a long time, as have a lot of other bugs - both good & bad (e.g., Swashbuckling crit multiplier not applying to thrown weapons, TWF feats applying to wolf form). But just because a long-standing bug hasn't been fixed yet doesn't mean it will never be fixed.

The special atks, OTOH, all say "Ranged Archery Attack: perform a ranged attack..." which is a little more ambiguous, IMO. The first part implies it's only meant to work with archery / bows, but "ranged attack" is generic. Then again, there are things in Tempest labeled "Dual Wielding Melee Attack" which work with any melee combat style not just TWF (e.g. Dance of Death); so again the obvious explanation is that either they're bugged or the descriptions are wrong.

Ive gone over this too, arrows is used as a placeholder for "ranged ammo" in ddo often, the most obvious one is the flame arrow spell that allows you to summon any ammo type once cast.

Again, everything in the tree that specifies bows only works with bows if my memory serves, so yeah, occams razor, arrows has already been shown to be a placeholder word for simplicities sake in the game.

[01000010]

On AA stances and throwing weapons we have a feature that does not work without using some additional steps.

While that is not proof that it should not be working that way, it is also not proof that it should be. I agree if someone is willing to go the extra steps then they should enjoy it. However, at the same time they should not get upset {which usually happens with things like this when the Development finally removes the workaround} when Development changes the system and it does not work.

Features that Turbine has decided should not work together but do should always be used with the caution that you might login after an update and find you can't use it, or you may find it working a different way.

---------------
Now you are correct that the changes to the Enhancements for Ranger as well as features that exist with the class do make for good synergies with critical profile and/or sneak attack. However, the ranger levels have some pre-selected feats that will be in a build and not be used. Much like a Pure Ranger who only uses a bow and never pulls out two weapons, or the opposite never pulls out a bow. Or even worse a build with evasion and an extremely low reflex save, or wears heavier then light armor.

The question becomes would different class levels actually provide more, be it DPS or Defensive features.

Now not all classes are finished, we might see some interesting things with Fighter Enhancement changes (as you've stated), or even changes that will make Druid or even Monk better options with Wisdom as a primary attribute.



Very intelligent post, im impressed, doesnt happen often.

Many ranger builds either dont use the ranged feats or dont used the twf feats if they are ranged(or use them so poorly they arent a factor in the build), this is not in the slightest different than choosing another fighting style other than you spend a few more feats, is it worth it? depends on what you get in the total build at lvl 30(by which points you get a ton of feats).

Very nice to see awareness, ty.

[Grailhawk]

More? not at all, you are saying +1 crit range has more synergy with +1 multiplier from tempest core than it does from +1 multiplier from other trees? its the exact same, now consider that those other sources offer other things to a build you cant get from DWS or tempest.

Out side of swashbuckler what tree has a +1 Crit multiplier? Weapons limitations make that weeker then a TWF Ranger with Khopesh. Maybe not too much weaker but weaker.

Ranger TWF ranger with Khopesh will have a 16-18/x4 19-20/x5 at least crit profile (Khopesh, Stalker Core L12, Tempest Core L12, and Overwhelming Critical) that's a min of 0.95-.25 + .15*4 + .1*5 = 1.8 crit power. Can you come up with another 12 Ranger build that has that much crit power? Allso when talking about the stuff from other classes realize that if you take another 8 ranger levels you get a ton of Doublestrike, and a healthy amount of Melee power, all of which requires TWF. Theres also the Big burst and AoE damage that Tempest gives you (you could get those on a non TWF build but then your putting points in tempest and paying a lot of filler).

Tempest is a better tree for melee DPS then Stalker and it requires TWF, to make shine. Your not wrong about Stalker being good it is its extremely good its just tempest is better.

[01000010]

Out side of swashbuckler what tree has a +1 Crit multiplier? Weapons limitations make that weeker then a TWF Ranger with Khopesh. Maybe not too much weaker but weaker.

Ranger TWF ranger with Khopesh will have a 16-18/x4 19-20/x5 at least crit profile (Khopesh, Stalker Core L12, Tempest Core L12, and Overwhelming Critical) that's a min of 0.95-.25 + .15*4 + .1*5 = 1.8 crit power. Can you come up with another 12 Ranger build that has that much crit power? Allso when talking about the stuff from other classes realize that if you take another 8 ranger levels you get a ton of Doublestrike, and a healthy amount of Melee power, all of which requires TWF. Theres also the Big burst and AoE damage that Tempest gives you (you could get those on a non TWF build but then your putting points in tempest and paying a lot of filler).

Tempest is a better tree for melee DPS then Stalker and it requires TWF, to make shine. Your not wrong about Stalker being good it is its extremely good its just tempest is better.

Seriously man, take a look at named rapiers in the game, then look at swashbuckler tier 5 and then tell me you have better crit profile on a pure ranger with a khopesh, khopesh is your best weapon, rapier would be mine, compare.

Are there advantages to a pure ranger build, sure, but crit profile isnt one of them when compared to a ranger swashbuckler, lol. Take another look at swashbuckler tier 5s, just pretend the instakill isnt even there, idc, just crit profile, do the math.

No doubt about it, tempest is better for twf than stalker, but how is that even related to the conversation, lol.

Or dont do the math, ill make a first life version and prove it if you want.

[01000010]

Out side of swashbuckler what tree has a +1 Crit multiplier?

There are several, but i assume you mean that would stack with the dws core. I already said assassin with kukri.

As you know from youre own description of the tempest tree, a tree that i use on several character btw, there are many enhancements as strong or stronger for overall dps than +1 crit multiplier, like tempest there are examples of these in many class trees.

[Enoach]

Very intelligent post, im impressed, doesnt happen often.

Many ranger builds either dont use the ranged feats or dont used the twf feats if they are ranged(or use them so poorly they arent a factor in the build), this is not in the slightest different than choosing another fighting style other than you spend a few more feats, is it worth it? depends on what you get in the total build at lvl 30(by which points you get a ton of feats).

Very nice to see awareness, ty.

Don't get me started on free feats like Trip and Sunder that so many melee ignore. I realize in Epic/Legendary (especially Elite) it is not as useful, but so many ignore this in Heroic and can't figure out why they take so much damage :)

But one thing I could also point out is that to get features out of the Ranger Trees one could reduce the number of "Unused" Feats by limiting Ranger to the number of levels needed to get that tier in the tree. As you have pointed out in other build posts nothing stops a player from spending points in a Tree they have access to and there are very few Tier 5's that are Class Level specific. Now the disadvantage is you wanted some of those feats from level 6 to 12 that Ranger gets you, you will need to meet their requirements.

[01000010]

Don't get me started on free feats like Trip and Sunder that so many melee ignore. I realize in Epic/Legendary (especially Elite) it is not as useful, but so many ignore this in Heroic and can't figure out why they take so much damage :)

But one thing I could also point out is that to get features out of the Ranger Trees one could reduce the number of "Unused" Feats by limiting Ranger to the number of levels needed to get that tier in the tree. As you have pointed out in other build posts nothing stops a player from spending points in a Tree they have access to and there are very few Tier 5's that are Class Level specific. Now the disadvantage is you wanted some of those feats from level 6 to 12 that Ranger gets you, you will need to meet their requirements.

Its all about pros and cons, not using autogranted feats on a character is definitely a con, but if that character has amazing ranged ability its a pro that far outwieghs the con of not using the twf feats.

Same thing goes for using any other attack style on a ranger or any other class combo(ranger is only hard to grasp for many because the idea of not using those free feats on a melee seems irrational at first glance).

Do all fighters use tower shields? Ofc not, Do all bards use fascinate? Do all druids play in bear form? Many characters have aspect that they could use but choose not to because usually specialising is neccessary for adequate power.

[Coyopa]

Well, I wasn't trying to criticize your posts in anyway, 66. Of course, you being you, that's how you took it. I've spoken with Steelstar and Vargouille about AA primary imbues working with thrown weapons on www.ddochat.com and they've said it is not WAI; it is a bug that they hope to fix eventually. So, enjoy it while you can. If you still don't believe me, go in there on Monday and ask. Just because I've taken the time to do exactly that and you don't like what I'm telling you doesn't mean you get to be a ****** to me.

[Enoach]

...Do all fighters use tower shields? Ofc not, Do all bards use fascinate? Do all druids play in bear form? Many characters have aspect that they could use but choose not to because usually specialising is neccessary for adequate power.

At one point in the game every character including those that were not proficient carried a shield - It was actually part of a common tactic

Many bards today have given up on fascinate, not because it does not work but because anyone can have AoE damage on a melee weapon, and so many players have to hit everything because it is there. The ability is still rock solid even on a non-pure bard because it is based on Perform Skill.

I enjoy playing a Druid myself and while not all forms are needed for all builds, there are times when even when you are not spec'd for it a form can be useful. Since Druids can change their spells at rest this means they can switch out to have the most useful abilities available. Many of the abilities of animal form simply need a small gear adjustment and are based on Wisdom so even a DC caster spec can become a reasonable tactical melee if needed.

Specializing can bring some fantastic builds to life, however, you don't need to specialize to be good enough for Legendary Elite content. Think of it this way, specializing is like having the Dial on 11 when 6 is good enough. The problem with everyone at 11 is that people lose site of what is really needed to succeed. Many times it is those at 11 that complain about not being able to steamroll content developers tried to add in more tactical/team mechanics.

But in the end it comes down to what you are playing the game for, is it the goal to make a 20 minute quest 2 minutes long or to spend time relaxing while playing a game and socializing with others.

[01000010]

Well, I wasn't trying to criticize your posts in anyway, 66. Of course, you being you, that's how you took it. I've spoken with Steelstar and Vargouille about AA primary imbues working with thrown weapons on www.ddochat.com and they've said it is not WAI; it is a bug that they hope to fix eventually. So, enjoy it while you can. If you still don't believe me, go in there on Monday and ask. Just because I've taken the time to do exactly that and you don't like what I'm telling you doesn't mean you get to be a ****** to me.

First, i guess you dont know me, because i didnt think you were being critical of my post at all, your original post was mostly detailing how youve done something semisimilar its not quite one of the routes i would go.

As youve dont in the past, you attacked the idea that AA should have use beyond bow, which is kind of funny because i didnt say that in the original post at all, i simply mentioned aa is cheaper as a ranger than an elf while explinging a shuriken build which was my alternative ranged example.

Did you talk to the devs? IDK, i assume you did. Is it working as intended? Got me, there is evidence both ways.

But now the big question, SHOULD AA work with all ranged weapons, as of right now most of it does, wai or not what is the justification for an entire tree available to any class combo devoted to a specific weapon. Only other tree someone could compare would be acrobat, and lemme tell you i have a lot of points spent in acrobat on characters that dont use staves, mechanic? 90% works with all ranged.

Even the mech enhc that seem specific sometimes arent, core 1 arbalester affects all ranged(but has a pic of a crossbow and a descriptive name), mechanical reloader adds to ranged power which affects all ranged weaps and thrown weap alacrity also, you think youre mechanically reloading shuriken?

I havent been ***** to you, ive simply presented another way of seeing a topic you are passionate about, why are you passionate about it and looking to nerf what i and many others consider a logical and balanced option is a good question, i can only guess.

[01000010]

At one point in the game every character including those that were not proficient carried a shield - It was actually part of a common tactic

Many bards today have given up on fascinate, not because it does not work but because anyone can have AoE damage on a melee weapon, and so many players have to hit everything because it is there. The ability is still rock solid even on a non-pure bard because it is based on Perform Skill.

I enjoy playing a Druid myself and while not all forms are needed for all builds, there are times when even when you are not spec'd for it a form can be useful. Since Druids can change their spells at rest this means they can switch out to have the most useful abilities available. Many of the abilities of animal form simply need a small gear adjustment and are based on Wisdom so even a DC caster spec can become a reasonable tactical melee if needed.

Specializing can bring some fantastic builds to life, however, you don't need to specialize to be good enough for Legendary Elite content. Think of it this way, specializing is like having the Dial on 11 when 6 is good enough. The problem with everyone at 11 is that people lose site of what is really needed to succeed. Many times it is those at 11 that complain about not being able to steamroll content developers tried to add in more tactical/team mechanics.

But in the end it comes down to what you are playing the game for, is it the goal to make a 20 minute quest 2 minutes long or to spend time relaxing while playing a game and socializing with others.


Agreed on all points, i wasnt trying to say you shouldnt use those things situationally if you have the option or skill, but that there is a doublestandard in game about certain builds "wasting" certain feats and abilities while others are ignored constantly.

Specialization is something i aim for on certain types of builds, but im not shoehorned by it, adapt and overcome.

Ive been laughing at the goofballs bragging about fastest runs in whatever quests since that trend started, the difference in completion times is minimal between many types of strong builds with enough dps, for most quests the defining ability for speed running is (gasp) runspeed, lol, go figure.

[Thrudh]

12/5/3 ranger/bard/fighter SWF with evasion, cure spells, ranged option, SWF, swashbuckling, and stalwart defender is a very strong build.

It's one weakness is AOE attacks, where the Tempest ranger excels with DoD. But it's no flavor build. It's very very good.

[01000010]

12/5/3 ranger/bard/fighter SWF with evasion, cure spells, ranged option, SWF, swashbuckling, and stalwart defender is a very strong build.

It's one weakness is AOE attacks, where the Tempest ranger excels with DoD. But it's no flavor build. It's very very good.

Yes it would be strong, you couldve chose to up strength a bit and take some cleaves(need str for pwr attack to get cleaves), or take 3 barb and add supreme cleave too, but its not like aoe melee is a big issue, especially when a build can kill single targets in seconds or even one shot them.

Might be the first time youve ever agreed with me thrudh, if i remember you used to basically hate multiclass, lol, maybe i read you wrong, maybe you know game better now, idk.

Yes, anyone calling 12 ranger builds flavor builds are being condescending and are unaware.

One of my friends runs a build similar to the one you are talking about and just using the divine crusader cleave can aoe decently with a couple other special moves, hes a little less tanky than that build but a little higher trash dps.

[walkin_dude]

Is it working as intended? Got me, there is evidence both ways.

Here, I believe, if a person is honest, he has to admit that the imbues aren't working as intended. Any ability that requires "special" steps in order for it to work, is not working as intended. Common sense dictates the truth of this.

On the actual topic, I think ranger is one of the coolest and best classes in the game when it comes to mixing it with other classes. Bard is another one.

I've done a 10 bard/6 ranger/4 rogue thrower, and a 12 fighter/5 rogue/3 bard swf which would probably work better now as 12 ranger. Both were from before the ranger pass (or the rogue pass, for that matter). Anyway, they were both fun. Your thread here has made me want to try some more of them. :) I just wish you'd work on your delivery a little. You come across as very dismissive and arrogant.

[01000010]

Here, I believe, if a person is honest, he has to admit that the imbues aren't working as intended. Any ability that requires "special" steps in order for it to work, is not working as intended. Common sense dictates the truth of this.

On the actual topic, I think ranger is one of the coolest and best classes in the game when it comes to mixing it with other classes. Bard is another one.

I've done a 10 bard/6 ranger/4 rogue thrower, and a 12 fighter/5 rogue/3 bard swf which would probably work better now as 12 ranger. Both were from before the ranger pass (or the rogue pass, for that matter). Anyway, they were both fun. Your thread here has made me want to try some more of them. :) I just wish you'd work on your delivery a little. You come across as very dismissive and arrogant.

Im being honest, i agree the imbues arent working correctly, i feel the bug is that they only activate initially on equipping a bow. There have been several similar bugs in the game, There still are, you have to relog just to activate some enhancements after switching destinies, same thing for some twists, have to relog to activate them. These are initialization bugs, could be the same case for the imbues, equiping a bow is when they are initialised then they are active with any ranged, it is no more stretch to assume the bug is in the initialization routine than the static effect, it is entirely possible turbine only tested it with bows and didnt think to check initialiaztion with other ranged weapons, this would certainly not be a first.

There were also similar bugs with initializing swashbuckler and some other stancelike active feats and enhancements.

Yeah, before the latest ranger pass many of the builds i now go with 12 ranger on had 11 or 9 or 6, but 12 is the base for most now.

The tone of the original post was because it is really a reply to someone that was trolling me, a few someones really, but one in particular. I regret if it made others feel i was condescending to them, wasnt my intention, im really glad if any of the info helps anyone as long as it doesnt result in any nerfs.

It took several years for me to really get a firm understanding of how to really create synergies(note i said creat synergies, not just use obvious one), i know people that have played as long as i have and still cant, and i know some others that really get it after 6 months, but thats super rare. Theres no shame in learning something you didnt figure out yourself no matter how long youve played the game, I recently had a fairly new player figure something out that i had somehow missed for about a year, humbling.

[Coyopa]

As youve dont in the past, you attacked the idea that AA should have use beyond bow, which is kind of funny because i didnt say that in the original post at all, i simply mentioned aa is cheaper as a ranger than an elf while explinging a shuriken build which was my alternative ranged example.
Actually, I did not attack the idea that AA should have use beyond bows. You inferred that. If you go back and read my post, I simply stated that it is not WAI per the developers so that people who may not be aware of this are. That way, if they decide to build a thrower around using the AA primary imbues, they are aware of the caveat and will hopefully be less upset when/if it changes.


But now the big question, SHOULD AA work with all ranged weapons, as of right now most of it does, wai or not what is the justification for an entire tree available to any class combo devoted to a specific weapon.
Personally, I don't really care whether AA is fixed to only affect bows, or whether they change it so affects bows and thrown weapons. I think it would actually be kind of nice if it did affect thrown weapons. However, Steelstar said it's very unlikely that will happen because they want to do something different with thrown weapons. They don't want all ranged builds to be the same with the only difference being the weapon.

As for why an entire tree is devoted to a specific weapon, you really can't figure this out? I mean, really? Well, ok then. I'll tell you. It's because it's a Ranger class tree. In the case of elves, it's because one of their favored weapons are bows and so it makes sense, especially from a flavor perspective. There you go. That's why. You're welcome.


why are you passionate about it and looking to nerf what i and many others consider a logical and balanced option is a good question, i can only guess.

See? This right here is why I say you're being a ******. I never said I wanted it nerfed. I'm certainly not passionate about it being changed. If you simply read what I wrote, rather than projecting your own emotions onto my text, you'd see that I was simply stating facts: The developers have said this is not WAI and is liable to be fixed in the future. Thus, enjoy it while you can. I certainly made use of it when I was leveling my thrower. It was a nice way to put some acid damage on my weapon when facing trolls, fire damage when facing ice mephits/frost giants/ice spiders/ice elementals, and cold damage when facing fire mephits/fire elementals/fire giants. I think it would be great if something like AA were created for thrown weapons (or if AA were made to be WAI with thrown weapons). I just wanted people to know that it is currently considered not WAI so they could make an informed decision and then roll the dice and take their chances.

[Grailhawk]

Seriously man, take a look at named rapiers in the game, then look at swashbuckler tier 5 and then tell me you have better crit profile on a pure ranger with a khopesh, khopesh is your best weapon, rapier would be mine, compare.

Are there advantages to a pure ranger build, sure, but crit profile isnt one of them when compared to a ranger swashbuckler, lol. Take another look at swashbuckler tier 5s, just pretend the instakill isnt even there, idc, just crit profile, do the math.

No doubt about it, tempest is better for twf than stalker, but how is that even related to the conversation, lol.

Or dont do the math, ill make a first life version and prove it if you want.

Your claim is that 12 Ranger do not have to be TWF right?

My claim is that a build that starts with 12 Ranger that passes up TWF and all the good thing in Tempest is not an optimal build and is ignoring several built in synergies, calling anything that isn't optimal a flavor build may be to extreme definition of flavor build but I and other do it.

As for Swash having better crit profile sure It does seem that way Exploit Weakness is ~5% increase to threat range now that IC has been nerfed and Swashbuckling Stance is +1 Crit multiplier combining it with Advanced sneak attack on a Baly you get the equivalent of 13-18/x4 19-20/x5 = 0.95-0.40 + 0.30*4 + 0.10*5 = 2.25 vs Ranger using the same weapon 14-18/x4 19-20/x5 = 2.20. Ranger also has the advantage of using an off hand TF weapon for the additional 35% Armor Piercing which likely adds more crit power over all.

Tempest is a better Tree then Swashbuckler just looking at Tier 5's

Exploit Weakness vs A Thousand Cuts: I would say A Thousand Cuts because its a big burst but that's open to argument, I guess.
Thread the Needle vs Whirling Blades and Dual Perfection: Tempest adds more +damage then Swash while Precision is active, and is not limited to the one stance for damage increase.
Second Skin vs Evasive Dance: I'll take Improved Evasion overs +6 Reflex and Max Dex
Coup de Grace vs Dance of Death: Its a wash based on play style differences.

Now if you add 8 more levels of ranger to your 12 ranger base you get a lot more out of tempest from the core 18 and core 20 then you do from the splash you are talking about but agian you have to be TWF.

The optimal Ranger build is a TWF, you can build good things that aren't TWF out 12 Ranger but they aren't better.

I'm on Ghallanda.

[unbongwah]

12/5/3 ranger/bard/fighter SWF with evasion, cure spells, ranged option, SWF, swashbuckling, and stalwart defender is a very strong build.
Among my innumerable alts is a SWF+thrower build along those lines: ftr 4 / bard 5 / rgr 9 (keep changing my mind what the last two lvls should be); Swashbuckler + DWS do the heavy lifting DPS-wise. Unfortunately, I've already taken ftr 4 on this char, so if I wanted a 12/5/3 split instead I'd have to TR or LR +1. With the removal of Doubleshot penalties, I'll probably add Manyshot to the mix.

It's one weakness is AOE attacks, where the Tempest ranger excels with DoD. But it's no flavor build. It's very very good.
Technically, since DoD works with any melee style, you could take T5 Tempest on this char, because why should wolf builds have all the fun? ;) But my current plan calls for either T5 DWS or Swashbuckler.

[01000010]

Actually, I did not attack the idea that AA should have use beyond bows. You inferred that. If you go back and read my post, I simply stated that it is not WAI per the developers so that people who may not be aware of this are. That way, if they decide to build a thrower around using the AA primary imbues, they are aware of the caveat and will hopefully be less upset when/if it changes.


Personally, I don't really care whether AA is fixed to only affect bows, or whether they change it so affects bows and thrown weapons. I think it would actually be kind of nice if it did affect thrown weapons. However, Steelstar said it's very unlikely that will happen because they want to do something different with thrown weapons. They don't want all ranged builds to be the same with the only difference being the weapon.

As for why an entire tree is devoted to a specific weapon, you really can't figure this out? I mean, really? Well, ok then. I'll tell you. It's because it's a Ranger class tree. In the case of elves, it's because one of their favored weapons are bows and so it makes sense, especially from a flavor perspective. There you go. That's why. You're welcome.



See? This right here is why I say you're being a ******. I never said I wanted it nerfed. I'm certainly not passionate about it being changed. If you simply read what I wrote, rather than projecting your own emotions onto my text, you'd see that I was simply stating facts: The developers have said this is not WAI and is liable to be fixed in the future. Thus, enjoy it while you can. I certainly made use of it when I was leveling my thrower. It was a nice way to put some acid damage on my weapon when facing trolls, fire damage when facing ice mephits/frost giants/ice spiders/ice elementals, and cold damage when facing fire mephits/fire elementals/fire giants. I think it would be great if something like AA were created for thrown weapons (or if AA were made to be WAI with thrown weapons). I just wanted people to know that it is currently considered not WAI so they could make an informed decision and then roll the dice and take their chances.

I did not infer that, lol, assuming by that you mean that AA should or could be used with that build. You are the one that brought it upand then explained how to do it.

So you dont care if this is "fixed" yet you jump on this thread and act like i was championing the idea somehow in the op, and you claim you specifically asked TWO DIFFERENT DEVS if it was wai and you have argued with me about it every time i hav brung it up(and i didnt this time), thats a whole lo of trouble for something you dont care about, have you also askd mutiple devs if they could make some broccol purple?

Flavor pespective, lol, make one of the very few trees in this game useless to the vast majority of characters for thev sake of favor, thatd b backwards as hell and a wast of dvelopment time, i hope youre wrong.

you say you dont want it nerfed and that i am projecting my emotions, lol, ill reiterate. I didnt infer anything, you brought this up, what angers you is im calm and i have a reasonable logical answer as to why ive always thought it is wai and that it should work this way.

if you ask one dev if something is wai thats curiousity, 2 is trying to get it nerfed, lol.

[01000010]

Your claim is that 12 Ranger do not have to be TWF right?

My claim is that a build that starts with 12 Ranger that passes up TWF and all the good thing in Tempest is not an optimal build and is ignoring several built in synergies, calling anything that isn't optimal a flavor build may be to extreme definition of flavor build but I and other do it.

As for Swash having better crit profile sure It does seem that way Exploit Weakness is ~5% increase to threat range now that IC has been nerfed and Swashbuckling Stance is +1 Crit multiplier combining it with Advanced sneak attack on a Baly you get the equivalent of 13-18/x4 19-20/x5 = 0.95-0.40 + 0.30*4 + 0.10*5 = 2.25 vs Ranger using the same weapon 14-18/x4 19-20/x5 = 2.20. Ranger also has the advantage of using an off hand TF weapon for the additional 35% Armor Piercing which likely adds more crit power over all.

Tempest is a better Tree then Swashbuckler just looking at Tier 5's

Exploit Weakness vs A Thousand Cuts: I would say A Thousand Cuts because its a big burst but that's open to argument, I guess.
Thread the Needle vs Whirling Blades and Dual Perfection: Tempest adds more +damage then Swash while Precision is active, and is not limited to the one stance for damage increase.
Second Skin vs Evasive Dance: I'll take Improved Evasion overs +6 Reflex and Max Dex
Coup de Grace vs Dance of Death: Its a wash based on play style differences.

Now if you add 8 more levels of ranger to your 12 ranger base you get a lot more out of tempest from the core 18 and core 20 then you do from the splash you are talking about but agian you have to be TWF.

The optimal Ranger build is a TWF, you can build good things that aren't TWF out 12 Ranger but they aren't better.

I'm on Ghallanda.

I woulnt exactly call it my claim its obviously true.

Oh ignoring several build synergies so must not be optimal? so how high up in aa tree did you go on youre ranger? ranger gests more ranged feats than it does melee feats, so by you own logic you have made a suboptimal build due to wasting obvious synergies? You took imp crit ranged and shot on the run for more ranged power right? otherwise youre wasting that synergy.

so you stil got the math wrong, but even while trying to lowball sb crit profile you still proved yourself wrong in your previous claim that pure tempest had better crit profile, now that youve lost your primary arguement you are forced to digress to making a bunch of false comparisons where you postulate with great favortism about other enhancements, while ignoring the additional direct damage you can get from the sb tree.

and amor piercing? precision stance and now armor piercing is on about anything, i am certainly not forced to stay in precision stance as you imply, power attack isnt pure ranger only belive it or not.

gland, perfect lets do this, pm me your name or ill pm you mine after i roll a 1st lifer, will take me a liitle time to lvl him to 30 and twist out, but i will.

[Coyopa]

if you ask one dev if something is wai thats curiousity, 2 is trying to get it nerfed, lol.

They were in DDOChat on the same day, one was simply online earlier than the other. Varg said he didn't think it was, but that I needed to ask Steelstar. So, I asked Steelstar when he came on later. See how you're making a lot of inferences?

[Coyopa]

================================================== ===========================
12-17ranger/3-6monk/0-2whatever SHURIKEN

How it works, no need to be a halfling since you can get crit range from DWS core, Sniper Shot FTW, if you take DWS dex to Dmg you dont need to be centered, this opens the build up a bit so you can:

Be in full plate if you chose, use a tower shield if you chose, use a runearm if you take 2 artie as the whatever. Full metal Shuriken is a fun build, been using versions for years.

Ranger also opens up AA tree way cheaper than elves, FYI

And right here is where you seem to be advocating using AA imbues with thrown weapons. If you weren't, then why bother mentioning this at this particular point in your original post?

[Grailhawk]

so you stil got the math wrong, but even while trying to lowball sb crit profile you still proved yourself wrong in your previous claim that pure tempest had better crit profile, now that youve lost your primary arguement you are forced to digress to making a bunch of false comparisons where you postulate with great favortism about other enhancements, while ignoring the additional direct damage you can get from the sb tree.

and amor piercing? precision stance and now armor piercing is on about anything, i am certainly not forced to stay in precision stance as you imply, power attack isnt pure ranger only belive it or not.

Math is not wrong, and i did not low ball I did round though, see this thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444313-The-math-behind-exploit-weakness-(-10-9-on-a-rapier)?) now that IC does not double Exploit weakness only adds 5.45% increase. 10.9/2 = 5.45.

Exact math because you think it matters:
Ballizard: 30.45% crit chance at x4 and 10% cirt chance at x5 = .5455 + 1.218 + .5 = 2.2635 crit power vs 2.20 crit power on a ranger.

If you don't understand how good staking +35% Armor Piercing is I don't think you are qualified to be making advice threads. But I'm pretty sure you didn't understand that comment.

My comment about Precision has nothing to do with Power Attack. If a Tier 5 Swashbuckler is not in Precision stance they get no bonus from Thread the Needle (would think you would know that). Tempest gets bonus to damage from Whirling Blades and Dual Perfection regardless of what stance they are in, Tempest has more options more damage and more power then Swashbuckler in its Tier5s.

My character name is the same as my forum name just find me in game.

Quite simply Rangers are designed to be TWF for melee damage, they can be build to do other things DDO allows a lot of flexibility in that regard but in the case of Ranger they are very specialized to do one thing better then anything else. It really raise the question about what your aim is with this thread since you seem to insisted they are better off as something other then TWF, which is blatantly and obviously wrong.

Finally yes any Ranger I build takes IC: Ranged, and many of them also take Point Blank Shot to have a solid ranged option to go with its melee option, this is one of the options available for a TWF range since he doesn't need to waist 3 feat on a combat style that plays against type.

[Kompera_Oberon]

First, a note about the bolded part: AA isn't supposed to work with thrown weapons.
[snippage]
However, having bard songs to use (12), lets me twist in Reign and that's a really powerful ability on this build (probably most builds).
So, AA is not intended to work with thrown weapons but Reign is?
I assume you've confirmed that Reign does work with thrown attacks since you laid out your build and said you had Reign as one of your Twist on your thrower build. And yet Reign reads:

Reign: Spontaneous Song (expends a song but instant activation): You gain a +[20/40/60] temporary Health. On a vorpal strike, you unleash a thunderclap for [7/9/11]d20 Sonic and [7/9/11]d20 Electrical damage. Procs on melee, ranged, and unarmed attacks. Duration: 180 seconds.

My bolded underlines for emphasis. It does not state that it works with thrown attacks, it in fact seems to take pains to list every other form of weapon attack except thrown attacks. And the terms 'ranged weapon' or 'ranged attack' typically excludes thrown weapons and thrown attacks.
Here is an example from the exact same ED which calls out ranged and thrown being a separate type of attack:

Shiradi Champion: Gain a +1 Dexterity, +5 Spot, +2 Listen and 2 Diplomacy. Your attack speed with bows and thrown weapons is 10% faster. Finally, you gain a +20% bonus to the duration of your Songs.Again, my bolded underlines for emphasis.
And since the argument could be made that bows and thrown weapons was necessary because 'bows' does not include all ranged weapons (such as crossbows and gxbows), here's a citation from Shiradi Champion's Fay Favor where it simply lists ranged and thrown, at least implying that they are a completely different form of attack (and they are):

Each time you Vorpal with ranged and thrown attacks you gain Favor of the Fey.

I'm not picking on you or your build personally, Coyopa. It just seems that even the devs don't really know the difference between a ranged and a thrown attack, and which feats, enhancements, and ED abilities ought to work with each.

[Coyopa]

So, AA is not intended to work with thrown weapons but Reign is?
I assume you've confirmed that Reign does work with thrown attacks since you laid out your build and said you had Reign as one of your Twist on your thrower build. And yet Reign reads:


My bolded underlines for emphasis. It does not state that it works with thrown attacks, it in fact seems to take pains to list every other form of weapon attack except thrown attacks. And the terms 'ranged weapon' or 'ranged attack' typically excludes thrown weapons and thrown attacks.
Here is an example from the exact same ED which calls out ranged and thrown being a separate type of attack:
Again, my bolded underlines for emphasis.
And since the argument could be made that bows and thrown weapons was necessary because 'bows' does not include all ranged weapons (such as crossbows and gxbows), here's a citation from Shiradi Champion's Fay Favor where it simply lists ranged and thrown, at least implying that they are a completely different form of attack (and they are):


I'm not picking on you or your build personally, Coyopa. It just seems that even the devs don't really know the difference between a ranged and a thrown attack, and which feats, enhancements, and ED abilities ought to work with each.

I didn't take this personally, Kompera. So, don't worry about that. I actually had never thought to look at Reign to see exactly what its description reads. It does work with thrown weapons because I've been using it ever since I could twist it. And you are right that the developers haven't really defined their terms very well. As far as AA and thrown weapons, all I can say is that I asked about it in DDOChat and was told it isn't working as intended. When I expressed disappointment about that, I was told they want the play styles to be different in ways other than simply changing weapons. Steelstar also made mention about how Whirling Wrists from Shiradi is actually over-powered, but it was the best bone he could throw to thrower builds at the time. He also said that if they ever get a chance to make thrower builds better in other ways, they would revisit Whirling Wrists and nerf it.

[Basura_Grande]

Wait . . . is somebody really claiming Swashbuckler is better than Tempest?

LOLz.

[01000010]

And right here is where you seem to be advocating using AA imbues with thrown weapons. If you weren't, then why bother mentioning this at this particular point in your original post?


So earlier you say two devs said its not working as intended, but now when i questioned why you asked two devs you reveal that the first said he didnt "think" it was, which is not the same thing.

The op is about multiclassing ranger, not bringing up that ranger levels makes getting into aa a lot cheaper than elf would be goofy, i types it when i remembered it, which was after the ranged build i wanted to show in the thread.

i had no intention of discussing this at all in this thread, i hate discussing anything that the devs may nerf because someone is crying enough since they dont like it, wether wai or not, no matter what the subject.

[01000010]

Math is not wrong, and i did not low ball I did round though, see this thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444313-The-math-behind-exploit-weakness-(-10-9-on-a-rapier)?) now that IC does not double Exploit weakness only adds 5.45% increase. 10.9/2 = 5.45.

Exact math because you think it matters:
Ballizard: 30.45% crit chance at x4 and 10% cirt chance at x5 = .5455 + 1.218 + .5 = 2.2635 crit power vs 2.20 crit power on a ranger.

If you don't understand how good staking +35% Armor Piercing is I don't think you are qualified to be making advice threads. But I'm pretty sure you didn't understand that comment.

My comment about Precision has nothing to do with Power Attack. If a Tier 5 Swashbuckler is not in Precision stance they get no bonus from Thread the Needle (would think you would know that). Tempest gets bonus to damage from Whirling Blades and Dual Perfection regardless of what stance they are in, Tempest has more options more damage and more power then Swashbuckler in its Tier5s.
My character name is the same as my forum name just find me in game.

Quite simply Rangers are designed to be TWF for melee damage, they can be build to do other things DDO allows a lot of flexibility in that regard but in the case of Ranger they are very specialized to do one thing better then anything else. It really raise the question about what your aim is with this thread since you seem to insisted they are better off as something other then TWF, which is blatantly and obviously wrong.

Finally yes any Ranger I build takes IC: Ranged, and many of them also take Point Blank Shot to have a solid ranged option to go with its melee option, this is one of the options available for a TWF range since he doesn't need to waist 3 feat on a combat style that plays against type.

So, originally you stated my crit profile with rapier wouldnt compare to yours with khopesh, I tell you youre wrong, you do the math and ofc you are, so then you do math again undercutting the effect that exploit weakness has on it and switch your weapon to rapier since khopesh wouldnt be close?

I understand exactly how good armor piercing is, which is why the +5 damage making precision roughly equivalent to power attack on these swashbuckler damagewise but with greater armor piercing is a big advantage, you seem to want to pretend that you offhanding 35% armor piercing is insurmountable but thats bs, armor piercing is on random loot now and if you go into precision you lose 5ish damage from power attack which my build would not.

Now consider that by using the dragonedge offhand you also arent getting the same crit profile you got by switching to the baly(which formerly you claimed would be inferior).

Just fyi, if i wanted to take the tempest tier 5s on this build i could, lol, I DONT.

But i did not insist they were better than twf, i insist it is anything but a flavor build and im fully aware they both have advantages, you really think a pure ranger has more flexibility than a ranger bard, cmon man.

So then you dont take full advantages of all the synergies on your build that you can, glad we got that straight, so by your own words you are suboptimal.

You act like im stupid, but you are the one scrambling here, persaonally attack me all you want, everyone can see it.

Ill see you on gland, no way a first life build using a "flavor" build being controlled by someone so clueless could compete with you right?