Spell pen..DC casting..

[garzan123]

I notice some caster builds have spell pen feats..some are more DC sought..what classes need either or?I have a drow wiz 14 who is pm..I am not a good caster player at all..I use my so up on buffs alone..lol..just wanted to know the diff between the two types..thanks

[HastyPudding]

I notice some caster builds have spell pen feats..some are more DC sought..what classes need either or?I have a drow wiz 14 who is pm..I am not a good caster player at all..I use my so up on buffs alone..lol..just wanted to know the diff between the two types..thanks

Well, DC casting refers to using the vast majority of non-damage spells to their fullest effect, therefore you need to have the highest DC you can get in order to be effective. Spell penetration is basically your ability to bypass magical defenses of your opponents when using most non-damage spells like mass hold, finger of death, phantasmal killer, otto's dancing sphere, etc. One without the other is pointless. You can have a DC of 999999 on your finger of death and it won't matter a bit if you have no spell penetration. You need to focus on your DC's but never, ever neglect spell penetration, especially with the current end-game content being filled with high spell resistance mobs like devils, fiendish troglodytes, and drow.

As far as your spell points, don't bother with the extend or quicken metamagic on your buffs until you're well into your 20's. Don't put maximize, heighten, and empower on everything, either; that's the quickest way to run out of spell points. Those metamagics don't really come into their power until later on when you start getting more caster levels and stronger spells. You don't need to cast a maximized fireball when a plain fireball will do. Put maximize and empower on your SLA's and on situationally strong spells like wall of fire, disintegrate, and acid rain.

[Enoach]

To help think of it along these lines

DC is the Save of your spell. Now this is important for spells as a Save against it will be either 1/2 effect (Mostly Damage Spells like Lightning) or No effect (Most Mind effecting spells or Reflex Save spells vs Evasion)


Spell Pen is armor against spells. Here it is a Caster Level Check on your side to overcome their Spell Resistance. Not all mobs have Spell Resistance so this does not come into play for every spell. Additionally in DDO non-damage spells usually have an SR check, you can see this in the spell description. Common mobs that have this are Drow and Outsiders. Drow being the highest SR.

As a caster look at the spells you commonly use, if you are more a Nuke caster Spell Penetration is less value, if you commonly use spells with Spell Resistance checks you will want to enhance your Spell Penetration.

[RistoffDervish]

The best way to manage spell points is to upgrade all of your SLAs and set the metamagics on them to be always on (right click the spell on your hotbar to set it).

There are some spells you might want to set on your hotbar twice for unloading. Set up one with no metamagics and I like to have a separate bar for juiced up spells with the appropriate metamagics turned always on for unloading on bosses or mobs before a shrine.

You can usually do quite well with just your SLAs and save the others for emergencies.

[garzan123]

Gotcha...is it used more for caster first types..cleric..wiz..fvs..sorc..how bout druid pally arti bard?..is divine also in the group or it does not matter

[HastyPudding]

Gotcha...is it used more for caster first types..cleric..wiz..fvs..sorc..how bout druid pally arti bard?..is divine also in the group or it does not matter

Paladins, rangers, and battle engineer artificers can safely ignore spell penetration and spell DC's, as their spells are more for buffing and healing than offense; metamagics like empower healing, quicken, or extend can still be of value to them, if you can fit them into your build. All other spellcasters utilize DC's.

Wizards, spellsinger bards, and warlocks all benefit the most from spell penetration. Their effectiveness depends on their ability to hold, stun, instantly kill, or otherwise disable enemies, which depends on both spell penetration and DC's.

Clerics and favored souls are the odd casters of the bunch. They can ignore both DC's and spell penetration if they wish for a more supportive build, due to the nature of light damage rarely requiring a reflex save for half damage; this type of build is usually called a light cannon. They can focus completely on DC's for spells like blade barrier, cometfall, and flamestrike. Or, they can be more generalist with both DC and spell penetration capabilities and utilize spells like implosion and greater command.

A sorcerer might want some spell penetration for easier EN and EH content, but in general, it's not needed much as a sorcerer is going to be casting non-spell penetration spells like fireball, lightning bolt, or acid rain more than spells like finger of death or mass hold. If a sorcerer can get a decent spell penetration, that's great, it's just not of super importance like it is for wizards, warlocks, or bards. A sorcerer should never neglect evocation and/or conjuration DC's.

Druids and arcanotechnician artificers can safely ignore spell penetration, as they have very few spells that require spell penetration checks, and can focus completely on DC's.

[Atremus]

Good luck obtaining a meaningful spell pen on any casting class that doesn't have bonus feats. My FvS cannot land sound burst in LE vale because I haven't the feat room in my build to get both my DC and Spell pen where it needs to be to work reliably.

DC casting almost made a come back, but then Legendary spell resistance happened on (of all mobs) Kobolds...

Remember when TRing a caster for Spell pen bonuses meant you didn't need to pay the feat tax to be a god at the end game.... Remember when the end game was fun and not a boring grind in off destinies to obtain twist slots so that you can go back to the correct destiny only to learn your build sucks

[HastyPudding]

Good luck obtaining a meaningful spell pen on any casting class that doesn't have bonus feats. My FvS cannot land sound burst in LE vale because I haven't the feat room in my build to get both my DC and Spell pen where it needs to be to work reliably.

DC casting almost made a come back, but then Legendary spell resistance happened on (of all mobs) Kobolds...

Remember when TRing a caster for Spell pen bonuses meant you didn't need to pay the feat tax to be a god at the end game.... Remember when the end game was fun and not a boring grind in off destinies to obtain twist slots so that you can go back to the correct destiny only to learn your build sucks

Meaningful spell penetration is something you have to work for, I agree. My warlock (completionist, epic completionist, full caster past lives) is pretty much specced for end-game content as an enchanter, and legendary elite drow in tempest spine have about a 50/50 chance of the spell landing, let alone the DC functioning properly. Legendary hard raids are much easier, but the drow are by far the highest SR in the game, discounting red/purple names.

[smithers]

The best way to manage spell points is to upgrade all of your SLAs and set the metamagics on them to be always on (right click the spell on your hotbar to set it).

There are some spells you might want to set on your hotbar twice for unloading. Set up one with no metamagics and I like to have a separate bar for juiced up spells with the appropriate metamagics turned always on for unloading on bosses or mobs before a shrine.

You can usually do quite well with just your SLAs and save the others for emergencies.

To the OP: My main char for past 6 months has been a morninglord DC PM, and I think this is the caster build that benefits the very least from metamagics.

I have occasional fun with control undead and halt undead, but otherwise don't use metamagics at all. Once you are geared up and confident about landing spells, the trick for conserving SP for me is to avoid single target spells. I've seen some PMs that just cast finger and wail but I kill more stuff with circle of death (always heightened) than anything and try to avoid using finger at all. Heightened prismatic spray for 40sp (max/emp turned off) is another good deal since you can hit a few and usually get at least one instakilled or turned to stone, or even feared good when you are wading into a room of enemies. (Also great spell if you don't have your spell pen up there, or to take out champs immune to death effect. IMO probably most under-rated spell in game )

The toughest thing for this build in solo play is taking out red named, which is usually a matter of keeping DOTS stacked and running for your life. I did a couple lives in heavy armor and it was nice to just turtle up instead but the cost in enhancement points is pretty high.

Aside from spell selection, getting a torc out of Demon Queen will help a lot, but nothing will help more with your SP management than knowing the quests so you can pace yourself through mobs and time the shrines. It's actually more frustrating when you realize you were too conservative with your SP and got yourself killed as a result, than it is to blow through your mana and be empty looking for a shrine.

Another way to waste SP is to get interrupted. I try to get my healing through death aura, but have quicken enabled for neg. blast ("Oh &%^*!" button) and also for Wail, since I cast it while wading into a crowd and getting interrupted here is gonna hurt. Sometimes I'll also turn on quicken for DOTS also since getting nailed in a boss fight and losing all 3 stacks is costly but that's about it.

If you are really struggling with SP usage and you play in groups you might want to spend a feat on repeater prof, get harper INT to hit and maybe to dmg, so you can debuff, provide CC, and do a bit of damage even when you are empty or saving your SP.

Good luck!