Needed - Elf Ranger Help Please! [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

blerkington

03-01-2016, 02:21 AM

Been thinking of TRing a toon into an Elven Ranger (pure). I like the thought of having the dragonmark for the Displacement.

Does this work? Is it an awful idea?

Thanks for any thoughts/insights/help/etc.

My analysis of an Elven Ranger right here in this forum section tells you all you ever need to know about an Elven Ranger. Spoiler alert - yes Displacement is not only worth it, I got extend for it.

Hi,

We could give you some more specific advice if you told us what sort of ranger you wanted to build. You can build and play a ranger to be full-time melee, or as a hybrid melee/ranged build, or full-time ranged. The type of play you enjoy and the gear you have may help you decide which style is a good choice, but they can all be quite effective.

Marshall's thread about his ranger is not an analysis, it is a series of impressions from a new player who took the ranged option and played the class to cap just once. Not all of the advice in there is good, and the immodest claim that the thread will tell you everything you need to know about playing an elven ranger is not correct. The thread contains little information about how to play even a ranged build well, it does not include a comparison of different options even for ranged builds, says little about gearing, and it says almost nothing at all about hybrids and melee rangers.

There are many other more useful forum resources on how to build and play rangers, so if you're the type who likes to research build and playstyle the information is out there. Elf may not be the best choice of race if you want to optimise your character either; the racial enhancements are kind of expensive and effects like displacement can be duplicated with gear. It's not a bad choice, but there are arguments for the other options.

Thanks.

Marshal_Lannes

03-01-2016, 02:56 AM

Marshall's thread about his ranger is not an analysis, it is a series of impressions from a new player who took the ranged option and played the class to cap just once. Not all of the advice in there is good, and the immodest claim that the thread will tell you everything you need to know about playing an elven ranger is not correct. The thread contains little information about how to play even a ranged build well, it does not include a comparison of different options even for ranged builds, says little about gearing, and it says almost nothing at all about hybrids and melee rangers.
.

Blerk likes to stalk my posts so I wouldn't listen to too much what he has to say. He continually posts negative things about me and I am sorry he is trying to derail your Ranger experience. My comprehensive thread about an Elven Ranger takes you from L1 to L30 playing the hardest content in the game. The build is EE capable with minimal gear, which is why I don't talk about gear, the build is so good it doesn't require much gear. It does not talk about melee or hybrid rangers because it is an analysis of an pure Elven Archer Ranger. I discuss in the thread why I ended up going pure archer over a hybrid melee/ranged ranger as was my original intention. I of course urge you to look at other threads if you want to see what a melee ranger or hybrid build looks like.

blerkington

03-01-2016, 03:46 AM

Blerk likes to stalk my posts so I wouldn't listen to too much what he has to say. He continually posts negative things about me and I am sorry he is trying to derail your Ranger experience. My comprehensive thread about an Elven Ranger takes you from L1 to L30 playing the hardest content in the game. The build is EE capable with minimal gear, which is why I don't talk about gear, the build is so good it doesn't require much gear. It does not talk about melee or hybrid rangers because it is an analysis of an pure Elven Archer Ranger. I discuss in the thread why I ended up going pure archer over a hybrid melee/ranged ranger as was my original intention. I of course urge you to look at other threads if you want to see what a melee ranger or hybrid build looks like.

Hi,

I'm not derailing anything. My post was addressed to the OP, not to you. It contains information relevant to the stated topic, as well as some things to consider when deciding whether the quality of information found on the forums is good or bad.

In particular, my post made the point that there are different ways to build a ranger depending on playstyle. You initially claimed that your thread contains everything anyone would need to know about building an elf ranger (not an archer) when you barely even address only one of three playstyles, so that claim was obviously false.

Out of courtesy I haven't posted in your ranger thread despite my poor opinion of it. That thread is really more of a short diary than an analysis, and it doesn't even properly address the basic topics I'd expect to see in something claiming to be complete. I have no problem with diary threads in general, but I do have a problem when the author later tries to pass them off as something more than they are.

As I've said before, you post a lot and the content of many of your posts is controversial, because of the wild claims you make and your inability and/or unwillingness to support them. This approach of yours tends to invite responses, as it has from me and many other people on the forums. If you and I are posting on the same topic and I think you are talking nonsense I will say so and try to explain why, just as I would with any other poster who was behaving as you do. But overall, only a very small proportion of my posts are replies to yours, I haven't said anything at all in reply the vast majority of your posts, and I've never sent you a PM or tried to contact you in game. So no, rest easy, you are not being stalked.

Perhaps two good things for you to take away from this thread are that it's not all about you, and that making large, controversial claims you cannot support will tend to invite disagreement. As for the OP, hopefully he or she will not be discouraged by your attempt to turn this into an argument, and will come back with some specific questions instead.

Thanks.

ThomasHunter

03-01-2016, 08:39 AM

unbongwah

03-01-2016, 08:58 AM

6- Point Blank Shot (is this needed to open up other ranged options?)
Pre-req for Combat Archery.

9- IC:Slash (assuming scimitars - if I decide in rapiers, I would go pierce here - any suggestions?)
Unless you want to use named rapiers (such as Balizarde), stick with scimitars - or maybe short swords. [I can't be the only one thinking of claiming Celestias for his 10th presents...] Otherwise you need to take Weapon Finesse if you want DEX to-hit w/rapiers, whereas you get DEX to-hit free with scimitars; and it sounds like to-hit bonuses are actually relevant again in LE.

18- Two Weapon Defense - more PRR seemed nice
27- Great CON?
You might as well take Epic DR as well if you're really trying to boost PRR. However, I would probably take Quicken instead of TWD.

Alfhild

03-01-2016, 09:05 AM

However, I would probably take Quicken instead of TWD.
I'd second this. I would also suggest taking either IC:Ranged (for more Manyshot DPS) or Maximize (for better CSW's along with EmpHeal) instead of Dodge. With gearing options, you are likely to reach your dodge cap easily.
As for your L27 Destiny feat, they tend to be the weakest of all Epic Levels. Holy Strike (if you do not have Ghostly slotted) or Spell Power: Positive are options as well.

Kodwraith

03-01-2016, 10:44 AM

I just TR:ed my archer/melee hybrid toon into a pure elf ranger and am leveling now. Your initial ideas are quite doable. Even better you can build a hybrid melee/ranged toon that can almost get best of both worlds just by switching around your AP.

If you want primarily to melee with occasional ranged, then the only two feats you need for ranged are IC:ranged and PBS. I'm assuming you'll be using a longbow; the best one for low level stuff is definitely SilverLongbow. You can usually find em on the AH. Just PBS + IC:Ranged will give you a lot of flexibility over your enhancements to tip the ranged/melee balance. Combat Archery is nice, but it's basically more of the same. The main utility of a bow comes from the enhancement trees, assuming you have the basic feats.

For melee, the only extra feat you need is IC:slash/pierce depending on what you pick as your weapon of choice. PowerAttack is nice, but not required. Precision is also nice. It also works on ranged so a lot of rangers only take Precision and just leave it on all the time.

The first thing you need to decide for melee is if you're going scimitars or shortswords or something else. The something else is usually khopesh but this has two downsides: you need a feat and you need to be STR based for damage. STR isn't that big adeal but since you get lots of DEX bonuses, most folks seem to go scimitars. Scimitars are also nice because they have a great crit range AND you can use DEX to hit and dmg for "free".

I built my elven ranger as pure dex using mostly bow, but wanted to be able to switch to full melee just by spending plat on enhancement respec. It's handy to be able to switch depending on what ED I'm running in.

I personally did not build for DM-displace because I have green steel goggles of blur which are also displacement clickies. Also since I'm an archer, pretty much all my AP are arhcery related, so I don't have enough AP for the elf tree anyway.

So I built mine like this:

Elf:
DEX: 20
CON:15/16
WIS: 15/16
dump everything else, all level ups in DEX. Depending on how many build points you have, you can adjust accordingly.

Feats:
1: PBS
3: Dodge
6: Precision
9: IC:slash/ranged/pierce <- pick want you usually use to kill things use here.
12: IC:slash/ranged/pierce <- pick your backup killing option here.
15: Choice #1
18: Choice #2
21: Overwhelming crit.
24: Combat Archery
26: PTWF
27: Choice #3
28: Doubleshot
30: Choice #4

Your feat choices for the remaining 4 slots will revolve around what you want to be good at. I took SpellFocus:Enchant at 18 (which is required for one of my fate twists) and Emp Healing at 15. I didn't need Blinding speed at 27 since I have it on gear, so I did QuickDraw, which is nice if you're always switching weapons. Lots of folks take Quicken or Extend or Power Attack. You can take mobility and spring attack, but I don't find it worth it.

Your AP will revolve around what are hitting things with at the time. For melee, go tempest with 41 AP and the rest in DWS or elf. For archery, go DWS 41 with 31 in AA and 8 in Tempest to get DEX to hit/dmg for scimitars. You always want the level 12 core in DWS for expanded crit range. So I just park 25 odd points in DWS and then slosh the remainder between Tempest and AA depending on what weapon I have that's awesome. I always keep 21 in DWS.

The thing is that rangers have a lot of flexibility and arent locked into just one thing. You also get better with more tomes but nothing is specifically required.

kalaka

03-01-2016, 10:49 AM

dm of shadow
maximize
quicken
extend
icrit slash
precision
perfect twf
overwhelming crit
dire charge
blinding speed

Grailhawk

03-01-2016, 11:21 AM

unbongwah

03-01-2016, 11:28 AM

L06: Dodge or IPS
L12: Toughness or IC: Ranged
L24: Epic Toughness or Combat Archery
IPS is free at rgr 11; and if it wasn't, you couldn't take it at lvl 6 (req's BAB 11 normally). eToughness req's base CON 21; little hard to hit that on a scrawny elf. :p

OP: I've updated the Shadow Tempest build in my elven rangers thread, so check it out.

Grailhawk

03-01-2016, 11:31 AM

kalaka

03-01-2016, 12:05 PM

IPS is free at rgr 11; and if it wasn't, you couldn't take it at lvl 6 (req's BAB 11 normally). eToughness req's base CON 21; little hard to hit that on a scrawny elf. :p

OP: I've updated the Shadow Tempest build in my elven rangers thread, so check it out.

Your build thread references tempests as "squishy" and "less survivable than barbs or fighters" which is blatantly false.

Not sure why you would take epic reflexes or epic physical resistance either. Please don't post bad advice for new players.

Marshal_Lannes

03-01-2016, 12:13 PM

I think what appeals to me is a mainly melee toon who can back up and range from time to time. That seems to fit a Ranger perfectly? The Many Shot option just seems like a nice damage boost when needed. Here are the Feats I was thinking of taking:

1- DM of Shadow
3- Dodge
6- Point Blank Shot (is this needed to open up other ranged options?)
9- IC:Slash (assuming scimitars - if I decide in rapiers, I would go pierce here - any suggestions?)
12- Empower Healing Spell
15- Precision
18- Two Weapon Defense - more PRR seemed nice
21- Combat Archery
24- OC
26- PTWF
27- Great CON?
28- Doubleshot
(29 and 30 are FAR away.....)

Favored Enemies: Construct, Evil Outsider (for playing at cap?), Giant, Undead, and one more?

With a bit more of what I am thinking, does this help? I did check out the diary thread. I thought it was just that, so I only skimmed the first 1 or 2 posts (I've played the game plenty, so know the quests and such). The thread from unbongwah looks really interesting. I'll be reading that next.

Thanks for the help - would appreciate any additional insights!

I'll be going DEX for flavor - seems fun!:D

Feat wise I would start with PBS, DM of Shadow, Precision. This will give you time to play around with your Ranger and see which way you want to go and all three of those feats apply to both Ranged and Melee builds. Even more important than feats you will want to decide where you are spending your APs. If you are unfamiliar with the new AA imbues adding spell damage to your arrows attacks they get extremely powerful with items like 150 Spell power, insightful spell power and your Level 30 Scion abilities. You will see in my Analysis of an Elven Ranger why I eventually just dump the melee aspirations that I had because once you hit L6 (the silver longbow) and have your first AA elemental damage and spell power item you are stunned by the ranged damage (also in that analysis you can see where APs went by level to achieve ranged mastery). Another thing to consider - playstyle. When would you be using a bow and when would you be using swords? Also keep in mind it is awful being a melee in Legendary content now. Just did a LH Tempest Spine and at the end fight Sorjek killed melees with every swing while us archers just stood on the steps and pounded away at him with impunity. Just duo'd EE Trial by Fire with a veteran melee player and outkilled him 54-19. After the quest he asked, how are you doing that, slaying arrows? Nope I said, but every single arrow of mine is proc'ing 150-200 Acid damage TWICE (once for AA archer imbue, once for Scion of Earth attack) in addition to all other attack boosts. Finally consider that Legendary GS has amazing synergy with AA imbue builds because the weapon effects mostly focus on Spellpower boosts and offer unique ways to increase spell power.

Of course the great thing about Ranger is that you have lots of levels to figure out how you want to play. You can even take IC Ranged at L9 and Empower Healing at L12 to postpone your final decision until L15 on which way you want to take it. Main thing is try it out and see, I think you will be amazed at how good ranged power is now.

Marshal_Lannes

03-01-2016, 12:16 PM

Your build thread references tempests as "squishy" and "less survivable than barbs or fighters" which is blatantly false.

Not sure why you would take epic reflexes or epic physical resistance either. Please don't post bad advice for new players.

Unbogwah is one of the most helpful and smart character builders I have seen on these forums me thinks you are barking up the wrong tree here.

Grailhawk

03-01-2016, 12:20 PM

Your build thread references tempests as "squishy" and "less survivable than barbs or fighters" which is blatantly false.

Not sure why you would take epic reflexes or epic physical resistance either. Please don't post bad advice for new players.

8 HP per level vs 10 HP per level vs 12 HP per level, no 20% HP boost in class trees, no +8 Con class feature. 100% sure that Fighters and Barbarians are more survivable then Rangers.

10 > 2 Epic Damage Reduction is a much better investment then Weapon Focus: Perceiving, and no fail Saves ever is also much better investment then +2 Melee power.

Sorry but hes a lot more right then you are.

kalaka

03-01-2016, 12:25 PM

8 HP per level vs 10 HP per level vs 12 HP per level, no 20% HP boost in class trees, no +8 Con class feature. 100% sure that Fighters and Barbarians are more survivable then Rangers.

10 > 2 Epic Damage Reduction is a much better investment then Weapon Focus: Perceiving, and no fail Saves ever is also much better investment then +2 Melee power.

Sorry but hes a lot more right then you are.

The state of the game is sad these days, and will only get worse as new players listen to advise like yalls. I mean we have the guy recommending to craft spellpower LGS on a ranged DPS character. People have no concept of how to build DPS characters these days, and DDO is and has always been a DPScentric game.

You're right though, my ranger is TOTAL garbage. LOL. Not even going to bother debating how to build a character with someone who thinks epic reflexes, or physical resistance, is a good choice. Want to crunch the numbers on the DPS gain from 4 melee power? Its 1.5% more melee power. 1.5% isn't a small amount. People have done past lives for less. With improved evasion, MRR, resistances epic reflexes is pretty me.. 10 PRR barely does anything when you're already at 130 prr...

Barbarians are NOT survivable, and fighters are pretty sub par these days. You really want to argue that point?

Jiirix

03-01-2016, 12:29 PM

Your build thread references tempests as "squishy" and "less survivable than barbs or fighters" which is blatantly false.

Not sure why you would take epic reflexes or epic physical resistance either. Please don't post bad advice for new players.

This is a matter of your point of view. If you are giving advice to new players how to build for legendary elite other things are important compared to giving advice about playing the game from level one to level 30 and doing some hard/normal quests at cap.
For an average new player barbarians and fighters are less squishy than a ranger because of more hit points and armor as a main source of PRR. This difference isn’t that important to veteran players because past lives and are gear closing the gap. (And displacement, concealment, dodge) Sure, you can build great endgame rangers, but that can be very frustrating until you get there. Barbarians and Vanguards on the other hand are much more forgiving imho.

You may give good advice for a DPS focused toon, others give good advice for "easy to play" builds for newer players.

Grailhawk

03-01-2016, 12:42 PM

The state of the game is sad these days, and will only get worse as new players listen to advise like yalls. I mean we have the guy recommending to craft spellpower LGS on a ranged DPS character. People have no concept of how to build DPS characters these days, and DDO is and has always been a DPScentric game.

You're right though, my ranger is TOTAL garbage. LOL. Not even going to bother debating how to build a character with someone who thinks epic reflexes, or physical resistance, is a good choice. Want to crunch the numbers on the DPS gain from 4 melee power? Also with improved evasion, MRR, resistances epic reflexes is pretty meh. 10 PRR barely does anything when you're already at 130 prr...

Barbarians are NOT survivable, and fighters are pretty sub par these days. You really want to argue that point?

1500 hp at 120 PRR = 3300 EHP
1500 Hp at 130 PRR = 3450 EHP

150 EHP difference

3450/3300 = 1.045 or 4.5% increase to your survival.

5d8+100 (1.9 crit power multiplier and 2.8 melee power multiplier)
122.5 * 1.9 * 2.8 = 651.70 avg damage per hit
5d8+100 (1.9 crit power multiplier and 2.8 melee power multiplier)
122.5*1.9*2.84 = 661.01

661.01-651.7 = 9.31

661.01/651.7 = 1.014 or 1.4% increase to your damage per hit

So 2 feat to increase dps by 1.4% is worth more then 1 feat that increases survival by 4.5%?

And no failing a save on a 1 is an even bugger survival bonus.

Soul stones have 0 DPS.

Jiirix

03-01-2016, 12:43 PM

The state of the game is sad these days, and will only get worse as new players listen to advise like yalls.

Different goals imho: You want new players to become powergamers like yourself and others want new players to have fun and stay in game. Maximum DPS is not maximum fun for everyone. Not every build option is "right" or "wrong" but more or less fitting ones playstyle.

unbongwah

03-01-2016, 12:47 PM

Your build thread references tempests as "squishy" and "less survivable than barbs or fighters" which is blatantly false.
I said pallies, not fighters. If you're going to accuse me of being wrong, you could at least quote me accurately. :rolleyes:

Pure rgrs have a lot less HPs and start out with lower PRR (lt vs med / hvy armor); they also don't get Divine Grace, obviously, so they don't get the big boost to saves which pallies do. They get CSW, ofc, but so do pallies and they have LoHs to boot; while barbs gain free self-healing after lvl 12. The main advantages of pure rgr over barb / pally (in terms of survivability) are Evasion and can hit higher Dodge due to higher MDB on lt armor.

Not sure why you would take epic reflexes or epic physical resistance either.
Epic Reflexes is to hit no-fail Reflex saves so I can skip Evasive Dance, which saves me 6 APs in Tempest. Investing in Gtr Shadow DM is expensive, so I try to save APs where I can; otherwise I'd have to shave some DPS enhs from Tempest instead.

Epic DR is part of fixing the aforementioned squishiness: +30 PRR from Tempest, +12 from DWS, and +10 from epic DR; 22 PRR from lt armor at lvl 30 (30 if I run with Tensers of Div Power); which puts my standing PRR at 74-82. If you take Scion of Earth, it's another +20 PRR, so let's say ~100 PRR before gear. Right now I believe the max possible PRR from gear is +70, but I haven't figured out what's an optimal gear set. EDIT: Blitz is another +30 PRR, so say ~200 PRR tops.

Neither feat is essential; but both combined with other bonuses provide a nice boost to survivability to my Shadow Tempest, IMO.

Please don't post bad advice for new players.
http://i.imgur.com/NTM8oSP.jpg

I'll take your criticisms a bit more seriously when you've earned a few more pips.

kalaka

03-01-2016, 12:53 PM

You may give good advice for a DPS focused toon, others give good advice for "easy to play" builds for newer players.

DDO is DPS driven, and always has been. Yes I want new players to be power gamers, as completing content is fun.

I can't have a conversation with someone who thinks forum rep matters, so I am going to ignore his entire reply. I was power gaming, theory crafting, and crushing DDO content before he even knew what forum rep was. I'm glad his greenis is huge though.

Jiirix

03-01-2016, 12:55 PM

DDO is DPS driven, and always has been. Yes I want new players to be power gamers, as completing content is fun.

I can't have a conversation with someone who thinks forum rep matters, so I am going to ignore his entire reply.

Then why blinding speed for a melee ranger? Sure, for ranged combat it is 7% more attack speed but for melee combat haste, blinding speed or a speed XV item are all the same. Goatskin Boots , legendary raid armors, Boots of Blessed Travels, Epic Boots of the Innocent, Epic Quiver of Alacrity, Epic Ethereal Bracers, Legendary Brazenband all give 14% or 15% attack speed bonus to melee. Waste of a feat I would say.

unbongwah

03-01-2016, 01:06 PM

I mean we have the guy recommending to craft spellpower LGS on a ranged DPS character.
Spellpower boosts both AA imbues and Scion of Plane of <Element>; presuming they're the same element, that's 7d8 + 2d20 or 52.5 avg dmg per hit. LGS item is +225 spellpower if I'm adding right, which is 52.5 * 2.25 = +118 dmg per hit. Whether that's the best use of LGS slot obviously depends on what you're giving up to equip it, of course.

People have no concept of how to build DPS characters these days
INDEED

kalaka

03-01-2016, 01:33 PM

Then why blinding speed for a melee ranger? Sure, for ranged combat it is 7% more attack speed but for melee combat haste, blinding speed or a speed XV item are all the same. Goatskin Boots , legendary raid armors, Boots of Blessed Travels, Epic Boots of the Innocent, Epic Quiver of Alacrity, Epic Ethereal Bracers, Legendary Brazenband all give 14% or 15% attack speed bonus to melee. Waste of a feat I would say.

No max dps gear set can fit speed. Ps. My ranger out dpses any of your characters. Guarantee it. Your insinuation I don't know how to build a dps build is laughable.

Assassination

03-01-2016, 01:42 PM

This run through on a ranger life I'm doing this:

Dex build with scimitars. Typical feats everyone else is taking. I did not take the dragonmark of shadows, but I have displacement clickies.... I find in epic lvls I don't use displacement as often

because i'm in Div Crus and have good healing and decent damage "mitigation". Also I'm wearing upgraded TOEE leathers, that have lesser displacement...

I also went tier 5 and capstone in DWS. I think this is a strong play for a hybrid type character. Previous life I went tempest cap and tier 5, "Dance of Death" was often a ceremony I performed before my own death.

I believe my Ap's are 46 in DWS, 31 in Tempest, and 3 in AA for free arrows.

I find this style of character works very well in pug groups (which I mostly do) because you can adapt to what the party needs.

Couple of Items I find helpful:

I try to use weapons that paralyze, blind, or freeze opponents. After lvl 26 I'm using the "Epic Leapord Chill" from Toee, and a LGS Radiance scimitar. I use pinion as my longbow.

As an assassin I have improved deception and deception items, I think these are worth wearing as a ranger as well. They up your sneak attack time, and help defensively by flipping your opponents around so they can't strike

you. This is a major benefit during melee.

For me this has been a great build, my survivabilty seems to be way up from my tempest run, and I just enjoy playing a toon who is not locked into melee or ranged all the time. Play your ranger the way you like, and have fun!

P.S. Enjoy the drama that most build posts provide as well!

unbongwah

03-01-2016, 01:57 PM

I believe my Ap's are 46 in DWS, 31 in Tempest, and 3 in AA for free arrows.
If you were running in LD instead, I would recommend 42 DWS 31 Tempest 6 AA (Morphic Arrows) with 1 pt of filler. [Maybe 7 APs AA for EotW+Conj Arrows.] That way your crit specs would be 14-18/x3 19-20/x5 w/scimitars and 17-18/x3 19-20/x5 w/longbows (IC:Ranged+DWS core+Pulverizer all stack). Should have 120 MP/RP from Horizon Shot+Blitz+epic lvls too. :) EDIT: oops, just realized that should be 125 MP/RP; forgot about Imp Archer's Focus.

Assassination

03-01-2016, 02:05 PM

If you were running in LD instead, I would recommend 42 DWS 31 Tempest 6 AA (Morphic Arrows) with 1 pt of filler. [Maybe 7 APs AA for EotW+Conj Arrows.] That way your crit specs would be 14-18/x3 19-20/x5 w/scimitars and 17-18/x3 19-20/x5 w/longbows (IC:Ranged+DWS core+Pulverizer all stack). Should have 120 MP/RP from Horizon Shot+Blitz+epic lvls too. :)

I tried LD, but found I had a hard time keeping blitz going. The crits are nice though! I find i'm just not "zergy" enough to keep up blitz... but I may try again... Thx

Couldn't leave my build alone, just made the changes you suggested Unbongwah... Those crit #'s can't be ignored! At least on this build I don't have to stop to do traps, so the Zerg is on!

kalaka

03-01-2016, 02:27 PM

I tried LD, but found I had a hard time keeping blitz going. The crits are nice though! I find i'm just not "zergy" enough to keep up blitz... but I may try again... Thx

Hit haste boost, be at 10 stacks, ????, profit

Jiirix

03-01-2016, 02:30 PM

No max dps gear set can fit speed. Ps. My ranger out dpses any of your characters. Guarantee it. Your insinuation I don't know how to build a dps build is laughable.

You may give good advice for a DPS focused toon, others give good advice for "easy to play" builds for newer players.

Different goals imho … Maximum DPS is not maximum fun for everyone. Not every build option is "right" or "wrong" but more or less fitting ones playstyle.

Calm down, I already filed you under “building for maximum DPS”, I am just not totally sold on blinding speed. And there is no “your vs. mine” character competition because I probably invest far less time into the game and am therefore lacking gear and pastlives anyway. But when I am looking for max. DPS builds I look for them in the same place than you do. (And no, I am not him, just saw the little coincidence that he asked similar questions.)

Most of my own builds are not made for maximum DPS and more “how to get the most low hanging fruits into one basket” attempts. My ranger is STR based human with khopeshes just because Bleeding Edge is the best weapon set for him I have at the moment and speed is on my non-max-DPS gear.

kalaka

03-01-2016, 02:41 PM

Calm down, I already filed you under “building for maximum DPS”, I am just not totally sold on blinding speed. And there is no “your vs. mine” character competition because I probably invest far less time into the game and am therefore lacking gear and pastlives anyway. But when I am looking for max. DPS builds I look for them in the same place than you do. (And no, I am not him, just saw the little coincidence that he asked similar questions.)

Most of my own builds are not made for maximum DPS and more “how to get the most low hanging fruits into one basket” attempts. My ranger is STR based human with khopeshes just because Bleeding Edge is the best weapon set for him I have at the moment and speed is on my non-max-DPS gear.

Speed gear may work for many people, but doesn't for me. You understand that I build for max dps, and the rest is irrelevant. My comparison was simply to ung since he felt the need to insinuate I can't build a dps character.

There is nothing wrong with tailoring a build down to suit your needs, but that isn't what theory crafting is.
The game needs min max to make a return. Hopefully reaper mode is good.

Assassination

03-01-2016, 02:57 PM

Hit haste boost, be at 10 stacks, ????, profit

That's a good idea, will try. I just find in some quests there are natural pauses that cause me to lose blitz at times.... and that's a sad thing, because stacks of blitz are "Awesome"...:) Thanks guys

Grailhawk

03-01-2016, 03:29 PM

The game needs min max to make a return. Hopefully reaper mode is good.

You really thing reaper mode will validate taking a feat that gives 0.7% increase in DPS over a 4.5% increase in survival?

There is max DPS and then there is full ******...

blerkington

03-01-2016, 04:32 PM

I think what appeals to me is a mainly melee toon who can back up and range from time to time. That seems to fit a Ranger perfectly? The Many Shot option just seems like a nice damage boost when needed. Here are the Feats I was thinking of taking:

1- DM of Shadow
3- Dodge
6- Point Blank Shot (is this needed to open up other ranged options?)
9- IC:Slash (assuming scimitars - if I decide in rapiers, I would go pierce here - any suggestions?)
12- Empower Healing Spell
15- Precision
18- Two Weapon Defense - more PRR seemed nice
21- Combat Archery
24- OC
26- PTWF
27- Great CON?
28- Doubleshot
(29 and 30 are FAR away.....)

Favored Enemies: Construct, Evil Outsider (for playing at cap?), Giant, Undead, and one more?

With a bit more of what I am thinking, does this help? I did check out the diary thread. I thought it was just that, so I only skimmed the first 1 or 2 posts (I've played the game plenty, so know the quests and such). The thread from unbongwah looks really interesting. I'll be reading that next.

Thanks for the help - would appreciate any additional insights!

I'll be going DEX for flavor - seems fun!:D

Hi,

I think there's been some good advice in this thread from the more recent arrivals. Here are some more suggestions about feat choices.

For me the main issues seem to be whether you can you save yourself a feat and some AP by using gear as a source of displacement, how you intend to self heal, and how effective you want your manyshot to be. Then there's also the general issues of whether you'll mainly be soloing or grouping, raiding frequently or just doing normal questing, how hard the content you want to run will be, and how important it is to squeeze every last bit of performance out of your character.

If you can make yourself two or three displacement clickies, I think taking the dragonmark and spending AP on it doesn't give much additional benefit and the slots could be better used on other things. I don't think displacement is really needed at all in heroic levels, even on elite, especially if you're playing in group and capable of managing your aggro properly. It will be nice to have in certain situations, but the most dangerous thing you'll ever face in melee while levelling is that one hard-hitting variety of champion that has true sight and displacement won't help you there.

Quicken and maximise can provide good self healing all the way to cap and will save you a twist slot, but it's a little SP inefficient. If you do intend to use your bow fitting in IC:ranged will be worthwhile. If you're not set on elf, and think you can cover displacement with gear, then you may find human gives you better returns on your AP and the extra feat slot helps you cover what you want both from self healing and archery too. I don't think TWD is a particularly good feat and that slot could be better used to support either your self healing or archery. Precision is a good feat, but it's mostly useful in raiding and more difficult epic content; as someone who will be mainly meleeing, power attack may give you better mileage in heroic levels, with a feat swap later on.

Anyway, I hope you have fun with it. Selecting AP once you get the basic template will be less of an issue because you can change them around without much cost and inconvenience. If you have any questions about gear, then let us know.

Thanks.

Jiirix

03-01-2016, 05:09 PM

Speed gear may work for many people, but doesn't for me. You understand that I build for max dps, and the rest is irrelevant. My comparison was simply to ung since he felt the need to insinuate I can't build a dps character.

There is nothing wrong with tailoring a build down to suit your needs, but that isn't what theory crafting is.
The game needs min max to make a return. Hopefully reaper mode is good.

Sure, you can build for solo legendary elite but this was a new player asking for builds, what should he care about min-max builds that are needed for nothing in game as long as you can stick to a couple reliable people to play with? Keep it simple and achievable with a few hours play per week or some/most people might get to the “screw that, takes too long for me”-point and look for something else. As far as I can get it from the feedback in this forum section there are a lot of people quite happy with the builds that are provided here.

You hope for things that are long dead imho. Powergaming has never been as irrelevant as is now in DDO. Take the event dungeon as an example: What would have been the deal to make it what it is now AND a ridicules hard challenge for those that want one on top? Like make it scale up to level 50 just for the lulz. Most game companies see the money with the casual players (ever heard of hardcore mobile gaming?) I don’t say that this is right and maybe there is a niche for games with an actual challenging endgame, but I highly doubt this will be the road DDO is going to take.

kalaka

03-01-2016, 06:12 PM

Sure, you can build for solo legendary elite but this was a new player asking for builds, what should he care about min-max builds that are needed for nothing in game as long as you can stick to a couple reliable people to play with? Keep it simple and achievable with a few hours play per week or some/most people might get to the “screw that, takes too long for me”-point and look for something else. As far as I can get it from the feedback in this forum section there are a lot of people quite happy with the builds that are provided here.

You hope for things that are long dead imho. Powergaming has never been as irrelevant as is now in DDO. Take the event dungeon as an example: What would have been the deal to make it what it is now AND a ridicules hard challenge for those that want one on top? Like make it scale up to level 50 just for the lulz. Most game companies see the money with the casual players (ever heard of hardcore mobile gaming?) I don’t say that this is right and maybe there is a niche for games with an actual challenging endgame, but I highly doubt this will be the road DDO is going to take.

If I could have run it on level 50 I wouldnt have TRed.

As to the other guys comment...always go full ******.

My first post listed feats and advice with a new player in mind. There's lots of good named scimitar easy to get also

Marshal_Lannes

03-01-2016, 06:59 PM

The state of the game is sad these days, and will only get worse as new players listen to advise like yalls. I mean we have the guy recommending to craft spellpower LGS on a ranged DPS character. People have no concept of how to build DPS characters these days, and DDO is and has always been a DPScentric game.

This is not 2012. You probably were one of the people complaining that the new changes to manyshot were nerfs as well huh? The advantage that new players have over veterans is that we are not pigeon holed into FoTM build layouts and gear set ups. I will repeat what you must have just skimmed over, I was duoing Trial by Fire on EE with a veteran Barb and outkilled him 59-19. He asked me after the quest, how are you killing things so fast? My elemental AA imbues and my Scion elemental damage proc TWICE on every single hit for 150-200 damage EACH, every hit in just elemental damage. On a double shot that is 700-800 points of damage in just elemental damage. The way you deal damage with LGS has changed. LGS offers bonuses to spell power that are not available anywhere else. It is certainly one of the better ways of increasing DPS on ranged Ranger. Note I don't even have a LGS bow crafted yet so a LGS bow would take my elemental damage up even higher. It seems you do not fully understand the Ranged trees for a Ranger yet. I direct you to either my Analysis of an Elven Ranger or Scrimptons Acid Ranger threads for a fuller description.

blerkington

03-01-2016, 08:05 PM

The advantage that new players have over veterans is that we are not pigeon holed into FoTM build layouts and gear set ups.

Hi,

I'm sure not understanding how the game works and not knowing why expert builders do things the way they do must seem very liberating, at least to you. Ignorance is bliss, goes the saying.

Despite what you say, veterans are not pigeon-holed into FoTM builds, and the work people do on comparing gear layouts provides useful information about in-game results that may not be obvious at the level of reading descriptions and imagining how the items will work together.

I get that you want to present yourself as some sort of visionary iconoclast but being aware of what other people do and why they do it, rather just than assuming you know best, has some very useful rewards.

Now, instead of yet again derailing this thread with your arguments and self-promotion, why not get back to the core point of it. That is, instead of telling us how much you know and how great you are, you could try to help someone who wants to make a melee-based ranger. If you do actually have something more to contribute, by all means spit it out, but if you don't then it might be time to poodle off.

Perhaps you could use that time away to learn exactly how much damage a well-built, geared and played tempest can put out in the current version of the game before making any more embarrassing statements about the uber DPS of your own build. Or better yet, find a decent one on Orien, let them know you are competing for kills, and see what happens on a few runs through some difficult content.

Thanks.

Assassination

03-01-2016, 08:13 PM

Nice points Blerkington. I think 'Lil-boy Awesomesauce', aka 'DDO Visionary' runs mostly with casual players and has not been around enough to really see what is out there... He sure is impressed with himself though, just read his Ranger autobiography.... reads a little like a Trump autobiography... Careful with that ego...:)

Mindos

03-01-2016, 08:20 PM

You really thing reaper mode will validate taking a feat that gives 0.7% increase in DPS over a 4.5% increase in survival?

There is max DPS and then there is full ******...

If I may interject here, for just a moment? I see a .7% increase in DPS, and the math looks solid. It *is* a .7 increase in DPS. I see your stated 4.5% increase, but I do not see it as 4.5% survival. Instead, I believe you stated it was a 150ehp increase, that amounted to a 4.5% increase in EHP. How you jumped from a 150ehp increase to stating that it was a 4.5% survival increase, I do not see?

In other words, you are comparing a 150hp increase to a rate of damage increase. You are also claiming 150hp equals a 4.5% increase in survival rate. I believe you are confusing raw numbers with rates of change.

kalaka

03-01-2016, 08:26 PM

If I may interject here, for just a moment? I see a .7% increase in DPS, and the math looks solid. It *is* a .7 increase in DPS. I see your stated 4.5% increase, but I do not see it as 4.5% survival. Instead, I believe you stated it was a 150ehp increase, that amounted to a 4.5% increase in EHP. How you jumped from a 150ehp increase to stating that it was a 4.5% survival increase, I do not see?

In other words, you are comparing a 150hp increase to a rate of damage increase. You are also claiming 150hp equals a 4.5% increase in survival rate. I believe you are confusing raw numbers with rates of change.

:)...someone understands!

Marshal_Lannes

03-01-2016, 08:58 PM

snip

Party on Garth!

Grailhawk

03-01-2016, 09:03 PM

kalaka

03-01-2016, 10:36 PM

So you're trying to say increasing EHP is not an increase to survival? Good luck with that logic.

Increasing EHP increases survival increasing EHP by 4.5% increases survival by 4.5% ehp.

4.5% EHP /= 4.5% survivability

Attropos

03-02-2016, 12:48 AM

Hey,

Couple of pieces of advice.

A) Blerkington is a great player, and an incredibly helpful one. Kalaka, while coming across as a ****-head a lot of the time (an argument I'm sure he wouldn't disagree with [come at me bro]), also has a lot of good insights in his posts on rangers. I would argue that the people who complain about "mini-thors" being too good at this game are NOT the type of people you want to take advice from on what is good here. Don't listen to the pretty obvious [rhymes with scroll] here.

My two cents:

Play as a human, they are much, much more DPS. Don't take dragonmarks on any character, they are pretty awful. Displacement is vital in harder content.... but you don't need DMs or even clickies. The clickies are super nice, but on my ranger I still use displacement scrolls. I go through them like a madman, and it is annoying to use, so I would try to make the clickies, but you shouldn't feel pidgeonholed into taking a feat and wasting APs.

My particular ranger is a dex build tempest using scimitars. Despite having only 2 irrelevant heroic past lives and 1 epic past life, and altogether average gear, he has been able to solo the vast majority of quests in the game on elite (and most raids, like DoJ, on EN). Blinding speed is a fantastic feat because otherwise you need to either chug haste pots or craft a bunch of haste clickies. It is incredibly convenient...

You will probably find a dex build a little more survivable as a first lifer. A str-based khopesh user will be more DPS (by a decent margin), but I would focus on not dying for the moment. LD is the only destiny to play in as a tempest, all of the rest are utter and complete garbage in any quest that doesn't bug blitz out.

If you're on Khyber, send a tell to me, and I can give you some more tips on ranger play in game. Feel free to send a PM if you have any particular questions.

Attropos

03-02-2016, 12:53 AM

This is not 2012. You probably were one of the people complaining that the new changes to manyshot were nerfs as well huh? The advantage that new players have over veterans is that we are not pigeon holed into FoTM build layouts and gear set ups. I will repeat what you must have just skimmed over, I was duoing Trial by Fire on EE with a veteran Barb and outkilled him 59-19. He asked me after the quest, how are you killing things so fast? My elemental AA imbues and my Scion elemental damage proc TWICE on every single hit for 150-200 damage EACH, every hit in just elemental damage. On a double shot that is 700-800 points of damage in just elemental damage. The way you deal damage with LGS has changed. LGS offers bonuses to spell power that are not available anywhere else. It is certainly one of the better ways of increasing DPS on ranged Ranger. Note I don't even have a LGS bow crafted yet so a LGS bow would take my elemental damage up even higher. It seems you do not fully understand the Ranged trees for a Ranger yet. I direct you to either my Analysis of an Elven Ranger or Scrimptons Acid Ranger threads for a fuller description.

Hi Welcome shade, it's been such a long time

Marshal_Lannes

03-02-2016, 02:29 AM

My two cents:

Play as a human, they are much, much more DPS. Don't take dragonmarks on any character, they are pretty awful. Displacement is vital in harder content.... but you don't need DMs or even clickies. The clickies are super nice, but on my ranger I still use displacement scrolls. I go through them like a madman, and it is annoying to use, so I would try to make the clickies, but you shouldn't feel pidgeonholed into taking a feat and wasting APs.

.

I can't think of anything more annoying than casting a displacement scroll every 30 seconds. I commend you if you actually keep that up but I suspect for most people that is an ponderous annoyance. It is also a loss of DPS as you switch from your khopeshes to scrolls and back to khopeshess twice every minute. So that takes what, about 5 seconds every switch best case case scenario? So you lose 10% DPS every minute. Maybe you take Quickdraw but since that feat has no use on a non thrower except to speed up the switching it's the same thing as taking the DM feat (which also gives you free invisability). Again your thinking on DM is a bit 2012. At level 30 my displacement now lasts a whopping 6 minutes a cast! So I have 24 minutes of Displacement between shrines, enough for the longest of content in the game to be on perma-displace.

seskie1

03-02-2016, 03:08 AM

http://i.imgur.com/NTM8oSP.jpg

I'll take your criticisms a bit more seriously when you've earned a few more pips.

Sergod, I wonder if they added all your rep from every one of your accounts that have been banned since 06 would it add to up to his.

I can't reiterate 4.5%hp \= 4.5% survivability enough.

To the OP eleven dragon marks are a godsend to a casual player who hasn't farmed out displacement clickies, nothing is as satisfying as to see incorporeal, blurry, displaced come up as mobs swing at you.

Hobgoblin

03-02-2016, 03:28 AM

4.5% EHP /= 4.5% survivability

just as an observation here - and i only got dragged through 1 le shroud, and 1 le ts - but are those numbers enough to not get one shotted? if they both are, it is irrelevant, if they both aren't it is irrelevant, but if the lower number is a one shot and the higher lets you live its very relevant.

i guess what im trying to say - ehp is an illusion in le you need actually hp or be ranged.

Sunnie

03-02-2016, 05:20 AM

Spellpower boosts both AA imbues and Scion of Plane of <Element>; presuming they're the same element, that's 7d8 + 2d20 or 52.5 avg dmg per hit. LGS item is +225 spellpower if I'm adding right, which is 52.5 * 2.25 = +118 dmg per hit. Whether that's the best use of LGS slot obviously depends on what you're giving up to equip it, of course.

It's more actually.
At zero spellpower, you'd deal those 52.5 average damage, the formula being Base_Damage*(1+spellpower/100). So with 225 sp you deal 52.5 * (1+2.25) = 171 damage per hit.

Nice points Blerkington. I think 'Lil-boy Awesomesauce', aka 'DDO Visionary' runs mostly with casual players and has not been around enough to really see what is out there... He sure is impressed with himself though, just read his Ranger autobiography.... reads a little like a Trump autobiography... Careful with that ego...:)
He IS right about one thing, though, arcane archers can deal a LOT of damage with elemental imbues and a Scion feat.

blerkington

03-02-2016, 05:41 AM

Hi,

As I've said, I think the opportunity cost of the DM at one feat and several AP is quite high. On an elf ranger there are other things you could be doing with that feat and those AP, especially a melee/ranged hybrid who has many worthwhile things to choose. There are three other trees, four if you try to get KTA from harper. I'd encourage anyone considering the DM who has other options for displacement to do the arithmetic for the cost to their dps from not having boosts or other enhancements to improve damage; it may be quite significant even if you don't go human.

There are very few situations where 24 minutes will be useful. I'd say that a large amount of that time will be wasted between encounters, and if you are going so fast you're fighting continuously you may well finish your quest in less than that time anyway. I usually carry five displacement clickies and the only time in recent memory I've used all 10 charges was in a train wreck of an EE FoT.

Clickies and frequent shrines more than cover what is usually required even in the hardest content, and in easy content everything dies so fast and does so little damage displacement is not necessary at all. It's even less of an issue for a build with decent self-healing. Displacement is useful, but as with any other defensive buff you need to consider at what point you have too much. It may be a waste when the alternative is to get just enough and then have something else too?

There is no real DPS loss if you use displacement clickies, and in shorter encounters even with scrolls you won't be losing much if any because they are often over within 30 seconds. Displace, attack, move on. If your character has good dps, deception, blindness and CC abilities that greatly mitigates this 'problem' too. Some of the most dangerous mobs we meet can't be defended against with displacement anyway.

Having a larger number of shorter casts is also useful if you're not setting the pace of the party, as it's easy to waste a smaller number of longer lasting uses. As a melee you can renew buffs while moving between targets if you're quick enough, so it may be something you do in those small moments of dead time during movement. So it's for these reasons I think that the premium being places on the DM build option and particularly the dps loss estimate floated earlier for scrolls is kind of simplistic and unrealistic; it just doesn't take any of these other factors into account.

I think the best scenario for taking the DM and spending AP on displacement is for new players who lack the resources for clickies, or for builds which have an excess of feats. The OP is going to have difficulty supporting melee and ranged styles along with good self healing, so the DM seems like one of the more obvious cuts from his draft build. If we hear back from him that he can afford to make some clickies that would seal it for me, if I were in his situation. Perhaps the best solution would be to try it out, by taking the DM feat at a level where it can be swapped for something else useful if he finds he doesn't need it. So don't take it at level 1, otherwise you may find it hard to swap later for something else which has prerequisites.

Also, thanks for the kind words, Rast. It's good to see hardcore players posting in this thread; it makes for an interesting discussion even when you don't all agree, and it's a nice service to people who either haven't built this sort of character before or put much thought into their build.

Thanks.

blerkington

03-02-2016, 05:46 AM

He IS right about one thing, though, arcane archers can deal a LOT of damage with elemental imbues and a Scion feat.

Hi,

The imbues are good, much better than they were before. There are a couple of things I don't like about them though.

They weren't designed to scale across the large differences in RoA/RoF between different combat styles (archers don't do nearly as well as some other combat styles, such as throwers) and if you have all of your eggs in one (elemental) basket your damage output really nosedives when fighting resistant or immune mobs.

Thanks.

kalaka

03-02-2016, 09:36 AM

just as an observation here - and i only got dragged through 1 le shroud, and 1 le ts - but are those numbers enough to not get one shotted? if they both are, it is irrelevant, if they both aren't it is irrelevant, but if the lower number is a one shot and the higher lets you live its very relevant.

i guess what im trying to say - ehp is an illusion in le you need actually hp or be ranged.

My ranger has taken a hit from LE Sorjek, and can solo most of LE TS, so yes the numbers are high enough. Affirmation is huge amounts of survivability, and a game changer almost. At 1200 hp the red named ranger was rough, but once I got to 1500 she is cake. The rogue can still **** on me with his double strike 1300*2 hits, but I can just perch and auto attack afk him. All the trash is a joke, as it is just stunned and gets wrecked in a few seconds, however I can take hits from them fine. The metric for LE survivability is red nameds in my world, and that is what I gauge with.

Yes I won't debate that my demeanor can be callus, but I do know what I'm talking about. My opinions aren't formed off casual leveling sprees, or farming LH old content. I am someone who would rather wipe 10x in a LE shroud, which isnt what happens to me either, than run 1 LH.

I actually really like the Elven DM, and a scimitar elf with DMs can still do 5-6k DPS. I was elven scimitar dex first. It is probably the best melee ranger for new characters.

Marshal_Lannes

03-02-2016, 09:39 AM

Hi,

The imbues are good, much better than they were before. There are a couple of things I don't like about them though.

They weren't designed to scale across the large differences in RoA/RoF between different combat styles (archers don't do nearly as well as some other combat styles, such as throwers) and if you have all of your eggs in one (elemental) basket your damage output really nosedives when fighting resistant or immune mobs.

Thanks.

Both your points aren't quite right.

1) We are talking about Rangers, archers vs melee vs archer/melee hybrids aren't we? Throwers don't factor into this conversation at all. Secondly AA Imbues only work on arrows. Yes, there is a bug that allows you to equip a bow then take it off and equip your throwing weapon but this is likely not WAI and certainly shouldn't be build based on. So they in fact DO factor in the difference between RoF between bows and throwers. IE you can use them with Bows and not with throwers. Or you can use them with Longbows and not Xbows.

2) If you read my Analysis of an Elven Ranger or Strimstroms acid Ranger you can see why we choose acid. Very few mobs are acid resistant in the game so your DPS never does nosedive. See what a fresh perspective can bring?

Your remarks on DMs are also a bit out of touch. I base my results on actual gameplay experiences, not theory crafting on the forums. In real gameplay 30 second Displacement is not viable for any but the most dedicated button clickers and will still cause a loss of DPS as I have shown. In real gameplay situations you lose DPS even by shrining. So yes, 24 minutes of Displacement is a big addition to your DPS. Much EE content with a good group is run at a Zerg pace where virtually no one shrines. If you stop to shrine to replenish your Displacement clicks you lose 2 minutes of DPS as you have to shrine then run to catch up with everyone who have already gained a lap on you to the finish line. Finally, if you are going to bring in a scenario where you use 10 displacement clicks to equal my feat choice, there are other factors as well, namely the waste of 10 inventory slots (not a small consideration) and quite a few Shroud mats and the time spent acquiring them.

Finally, I don't see any Tempest Rangers on Orien, they must all be dead at the feat of Sorjek. Ranged has a huge advantage over melee in Legendary content so the net loss of the Tempest soulstones vs the DWS/AA elemental imbues is highly in favor of, well, being alive. Your results may vary of course.

kalaka

03-02-2016, 09:47 AM

unbongwah

03-02-2016, 09:55 AM

At zero spellpower, you'd deal those 52.5 average damage, the formula being Base_Damage*(1+spellpower/100). So with 225 sp you deal 52.5 * (1+2.25) = 171 damage per hit.
Right, like I said, it's +118 over the base 52.5: 52.5 + 118 = 170.5.

They weren't designed to scale across the large differences in RoA/RoF between different combat styles (archers don't do nearly as well as some other combat styles, such as throwers) and if you have all of your eggs in one (elemental) basket your damage output really nosedives when fighting resistant or immune mobs.
AA primary imbues are clearly bugged; I don't believe they are meant to apply to other ranged weapons - they were most likely intended to be a bow-only DPS boost, in order to offset the lower RoF. I.e., if we're discussing non-exploit-y DPS, it should be longbow w/imbues vs shuriken w/out imbues.

Though this is Turbine; who knows how long it will take to fix this bug. :rolleyes:

As for resistant mobs: AA imbues are easily reset to a different element (or switch to Force Arrows); your Scion feat, OTOH, is not so easily changed. So if you're looking for a more "universal" DPS booster, I'd suggest Force Arrows + Arborea full-time; you won't have max-DPS in all circumstances, but there's very little which resists force dmg and +20 Ranged Power is never a bad thing. :)

kalaka

03-02-2016, 10:11 AM

Right, like I said, it's +118 over the base 52.5: 52.5 + 118 = 170.5.

AA primary imbues are clearly bugged; I don't believe they are meant to apply to other ranged weapons - they were most likely intended to be a bow-only DPS boost, in order to offset the lower RoF. I.e., if we're discussing non-exploit-y DPS, it should be longbow w/imbues vs shuriken w/out imbues.

Though this is Turbine; who knows how long it will take to fix this bug. :rolleyes:

As for resistant mobs: AA imbues are easily reset to a different element (or switch to Force Arrows); your Scion feat, OTOH, is not so easily changed. So if you're looking for a more "universal" DPS booster, I'd suggest Force Arrows + Arborea full-time; you won't have max-DPS in all circumstances, but there's very little which resists force dmg and +20 Ranged Power is never a bad thing. :)

20 ranged power is a LOT of damage. When I did my math for 20 melee power it was 66 damage a hit for my melee ranger.

unbongwah

03-02-2016, 11:03 AM

In the end, it's all about math and how you choose to gear your char to exploit your abilities.

E.g., the various Scion of Plane of <Element> feats add 2d20 dmg per hit or +21 avg dmg. If we presume endgame Spellpower of 500, that's 21 * 6 = 126 dmg per hit. So let's round that off to 125 to make the numbers easier.

In order for +20 MP/RP from Arborea to match that, then your avg dmg per hit (NOT your DPS) sans MP/RP needs to be 625: 625 * 0.20 = +125. Since not many people have that high of an avg dmg per hit, that makes the Plane feats better DPS...if you invest in enough Spellpower, which is a big "if," b/c maybe you don't want to give up gear slot(s) for it or you don't like raiding for LGS or whatever. Plus as others have observed, sometimes you'll fight mobs with resistance/immunity to your chosen element and be at a disadvantage.

Similarly, how much extra DPS you get from Scion of Ethereal Plane depends on two factors: how high you can get your Hide skill and how high your MP/RP is. On DEX-based pure rgrs, I've seen people claim endgame Hide scores of 150+, so that's at least +50 sneak atk dmg per hit. But remember it's boosted by 150% MP/RP; a Blitzing Tempest or DWS should have at least 100 MP/RP, which based on this thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/472134-U29-end-game-mech-rogue-the-SA-king) means it would be (1.5 * 100 + 150) / 100 = 3x dmg or +150 SA per hit. And obviously that goes up if you can squeeze in more MP/RP or higher Hide skill. Naturally, this approach requires you to invest in Hide gear and (Imp) Deception gear to ensure you're maxing out your sneak atks; you're also at a disadvantage vs high-Fortification mobs, although so is a crit-dependent build.

Which is a roundabout way of saying: Arborea's big advantage IMO is it requires zero extra effort on your part in order to see a DPS boost; but the other Scion feats are potentially more powerful if you invest in the necessary gear etc. to make them so.

Grailhawk

03-02-2016, 11:04 AM

4.5% EHP /= 4.5% survivability

OK, doesn't change much; even if you say that EHP is only 50% of your total survival (which is very conservative as I'm sure more then 50% of the damage you take is physical in this game) its still more then x3 the gain of WF.

0.7 x 3 = 2.1 vs 4.5*.5 = 2.25.

Epic Damage reduction does far more (3 times as much at least) for survival then Weapon Focus does for DPS.

Your full ****** mind my not understand cost benefits analysis very well but when you pass up a 2.25% increase of one thing for a 0.7% increase to another your not building a very well rounded character and a well rounded character will serve a new player (and a lot of vets) much better then a full ******.

kalaka

03-02-2016, 11:16 AM

kalaka

03-02-2016, 11:17 AM

OK, doesn't change much; even if you say that EHP is only 50% of your total survival (which is very conservative as I'm sure more then 50% of the damage you take is physical in this game) its still more then x3 the gain of WF.

0.7 x 3 = 2.1 vs 4.5*.5 = 2.25.

Epic Damage reduction does far more (3 times as much at least) for survival then Weapon Focus does for DPS.

Your full ****** mind my not understand cost benefits analysis very well but when you pass up a 2.25% increase of one thing for a 0.7% increase to another your not building a very well rounded character and a well rounded character will serve a new player (and a lot of vets) much better then a full ******.

Maximize your strengths, not minimize your weaknesses. Enjoy your jack of all trades, but master of none, that does sub par dps, with mediocre survivability. Dead mobs don't hurt you.

unbongwah

03-02-2016, 11:28 AM

Plane of earth will be nil DPS in LE shroud, so it is irrelevant in my mind.
*shrug* Then take a different element or even Feywild. There ought to be something which is good for LE Shroud.

Grailhawk

03-02-2016, 11:36 AM

Maximize your strengths, not minimize your weaknesses. Enjoy your jack of all trades, but master of none, that does sub par dps, with mediocre survivability. Dead mobs don't hurt you.

That argument holds no weight when comparing WF to EDR. Rangers are not jack of all trades they are initially squishy DPS with enough EPL that squishy goes away.

60 DPS is nothing when you already do 8571 DSP, and weapon focus is only 60 dps if you are already doing 8571 DPS its less if you are doing less DPS.

EDR is similarly not very much an increase if you are already at 1500 HP and 120 PRR, but unlike WF the less you have of HP and PRR the more survival you will get from EDR.

Your initial post stating that EDR is bad advice its not. WF isn't bad advice either at the top end but new players aren't at the top end.

Attropos

03-02-2016, 12:25 PM

That argument holds no weight when comparing WF to EDR. Rangers are not jack of all trades they are initially squishy DPS with enough EPL that squishy goes away.

60 DPS is nothing when you already do 8571 DSP, and weapon focus is only 60 dps if you are already doing 8571 DPS its less if you are doing less DPS.

EDR is similarly not very much an increase if you are already at 1500 HP and 120 PRR, but unlike WF the less you have of HP and PRR the more survival you will get from EDR.

Your initial post stating that EDR is bad advice its not. WF isn't bad advice either at the top end but new players aren't at the top end.

He said hit, not DPS. Rangers are less squishy than barbs because they have on demand healing. Fighters have terrible survivability. Including crits, average damage should be getting pretty close to 600 easily. You have to remember that your base damage (what you hit on a non crit) is about a third of your per swing damage.

With scims:
Over 20 hits:
12 normal damage procs
5 3 damage procs
2 5 damage procs

Total of 37 swings of damage. 12 of them come from your normal hit. So your per hit damage is about 3 times what you see on a non-crit.

Most people have no problem hitting 200 damage per swing. When you include the extra +2 to your weapon enh bonus, it puts arborea over the elemental planes. Not to mention that acid is very commonly resisted. And plenty of end game mobs are immune (ie black/green abis). Also consider that the extra damage from arborea is going against the DR of monsters, meaning it has an even larger effect.

EDR is a fine feat to take if you're really struggling with PRR (<100). WF is a fine one (read: better) too. But my 0 divine/0 pdk pl ranger has a standing 135 prr without blitz on.

The only good LGS weapon for dps is vacuum. Triple pos is great for the hp.

Triple spellpower LGS is god awful for melees/ranged. Even on people with scion of an elemental plane. The ToEE set is -strictly- better.

Grailhawk

03-02-2016, 12:55 PM

But my 0 divine/0 pdk pl ranger has a standing 135 prr without blitz on.

prove it.

kalaka

03-02-2016, 01:09 PM

He said hit, not DPS. Rangers are less squishy than barbs because they have on demand healing. Fighters have terrible survivability. Including crits, average damage should be getting pretty close to 600 easily. You have to remember that your base damage (what you hit on a non crit) is about a third of your per swing damage.

With scims:
Over 20 hits:
12 normal damage procs
5 3 damage procs
2 5 damage procs

Total of 37 swings of damage. 12 of them come from your normal hit. So your per hit damage is about 3 times what you see on a non-crit.

Most people have no problem hitting 200 damage per swing. When you include the extra +2 to your weapon enh bonus, it puts arborea over the elemental planes. Not to mention that acid is very commonly resisted. And plenty of end game mobs are immune (ie black/green abis). Also consider that the extra damage from arborea is going against the DR of monsters, meaning it has an even larger effect.

EDR is a fine feat to take if you're really struggling with PRR (<100). WF is a fine one (read: better) too. But my 0 divine/0 pdk pl ranger has a standing 135 prr without blitz on.

The only good LGS weapon for dps is vacuum. Triple pos is great for the hp.

Triple spellpower LGS is god awful for melees/ranged. Even on people with scion of an elemental plane. The ToEE set is -strictly- better.

I don't run vacuum. I have 3 triple positives and 3 mineral 2s. Does that mean I'm bad bro? ;)

135 is easily doable with no PL. I am at the PRR I'm at without the devil commander boots, and only sightless for a PRR item. I also didn't take a lot of PRR enhancements.

Attropos

03-02-2016, 01:40 PM

I don't run vacuum. I have 3 triple positives and 3 mineral 2s. Does that mean I'm bad bro? ;).

Terrible. I'm favoring vacuum/ToEE on my guys but if you're gimp enough tha.... :D It is awesome in LE raids, I just like the 20% damage better heh.

prove it.
Do it yourself, it's not hard

HungarianRhapsody

03-02-2016, 02:26 PM

Do it yourself, it's not hard

Just man up and post a screen shot. You said you had a thing. Demonstrate that you have that thing.

kalaka

03-02-2016, 02:32 PM

Terrible. I'm favoring vacuum/ToEE on my guys but if you're gimp enough tha.... :D It is awesome in LE raids, I just like the 20% damage better heh.

Do it yourself, it's not hard

I'm addicted to that 1k hp dude. I zerg too full ******, and solo/2 man LE a lot. I need to make a vacuum, and craft my TOEE junk, tho. I plan to run a Trip pos/toee setup, and min2/toee or min2/min2 for bosses. Also only 1 person needs to run vacuum really.

Grailhawk

03-02-2016, 02:36 PM

Just man up and post a screen shot. You said you had a thing. Demonstrate that you have that thing.

Its all good, he knows that to get that kind of PRR on a Ranger he has to give up far more meaning full DPS increase the WF or take feat like EDR. Probably both.

unbongwah

03-02-2016, 03:07 PM

YOU KIDS BEHAVE OR I AM TURNING THIS CAR AROUND

30 light armor (BAB 30)
30 Tempest
12 DWS (Survivalist)
30 Blitz
38 Sheltering (Celestial Leathers)
18 Insight Sheltering (Devil Commander Boots)
09 Quality Sheltering (Devil Commander Boots)
167 PRR

EDIT: duh, just realized DCB provides insight+quality.

Grailhawk

03-02-2016, 03:14 PM

YOU KIDS BEHAVE OR I AM TURNING THIS CAR AROUND

30 light armor (BAB 30)
30 Tempest
12 DWS (Survivalist)
30 Blitz
38 Sheltering (Celestial Leathers)
18 Insight Sheltering (Planar Compass)
09 Quality Sheltering (Devil Commander Boots)
167 PRR

Planar Compass isn't valid (Litany is a better DPS trinket) and he said before Blitz so that's -48, total of 119 which is less then the 135 he claimed. Would also argue that there are better DPS boots (anything with Speed 15) but I'll let that one slide.

Will admit 119 is better then I expected.

SableShadow

03-02-2016, 03:33 PM

Planar Compass isn't valid (Litany is a better DPS trinket) and he said before Blitz so that's -48, total of 119 which is less then the 135 he claimed. Would also argue that there are better DPS boots (anything with Speed 15) but I'll let that one slide.

Will admit 119 is better then I expected.

On my baby ranger, I was playing around with something like:

30 light armor (BAB 30)
30 Tempest
12 DWS (Survivalist)
35 Sightless (would like to keep the TOEE set, so prr armor is out)
---------------
107

And eventually add in a +18 insightful PRR lootgen

125

Still farming the sightless and some other items to swap in the insightful prr lootgen.

At the moment, my ranger is whachagot equipped.

Attropos

03-02-2016, 03:37 PM

Its all good, he knows that to get that kind of PRR on a Ranger he has to give up far more meaning full DPS increase the WF or take feat like EDR. Probably both.

Cool man. It's probably that. Not, you know, the fact that I am at work and unable to post a screenshot. And if I'm able to play DDO, I'm playing it, not posting on the forums. Nope, zero chance.

YOU KIDS BEHAVE OR I AM TURNING THIS CAR AROUND

30 light armor (BAB 30)
30 Tempest
12 DWS (Survivalist)
30 Blitz
38 Sheltering (Celestial Leathers)
18 Insight Sheltering (Planar Compass)
09 Quality Sheltering (Devil Commander Boots)
167 PRR

Ding! That wasn't so hard Grail, right? The boots have insightful sheltering on them too, no need to use the compass. And that doesn't even include mythic bonuses or rem bonuses either. I get my sheltering from a mythic sightless (I don't use the HoX/TS armor). I think I am missing a few points in the tempest tree... I was playing the ranger last night which I why I know the PRR was 135.

Now that we have established that I'm as baddass as I claim, can the people who don't know anything about rangers stop posting so we can help the OP?

kalaka

03-02-2016, 03:42 PM

Cool man. It's probably that. Not, you know, the fact that I am at work and unable to post a screenshot. And if I'm able to play DDO, I'm playing it, not posting on the forums. Nope, zero chance.

Ding! That wasn't so hard Grail, right? The boots have insightful sheltering on them too, no need to use the compass. And that doesn't even include mythic bonuses or rem bonuses either. I get my sheltering from a mythic sightless (I don't use the HoX/TS armor). I think I am missing a few points in the tempest tree... I was playing the ranger last night which I why I know the PRR was 135.

Now that we have established that I'm as baddass as I claim, can the people who don't know anything about rangers stop posting so we can help the OP?

I know nothing. I'm garbage. PS I will be going to the dark side (Khyber) soon. Turns out my friend that I am transferring with is already in ER with his character on Khyber.

Attropos

03-02-2016, 03:43 PM

I'm addicted to that 1k hp dude. I zerg too full ******, and solo/2 man LE a lot. I need to make a vacuum, and craft my TOEE junk, tho. I plan to run a Trip pos/toee setup, and min2/toee or min2/min2 for bosses. Also only 1 person needs to run vacuum really.

I have to die occasionally to make other people feel like they're doing things in the quest. I'm just doing my public duty.

Yeah, I'm planning on making the triple pos eventually for the ranger as a hot swap, but he's last in line for gear and I have been taking my sweet time to make LGS since I'm not a masochist haha.

I know nothing. I'm garbage. PS I will be going to the dark side (Khyber) soon. Turns out my friend that I am transferring with is already in ER with his character on Khyber.

Off topic, but which baddie is it?

kalaka

03-02-2016, 03:44 PM

I have to die occasionally to make other people feel like they're doing things in the quest. I'm just doing my public duty.

Yeah, I'm planning on making the triple pos eventually for the ranger as a hot swap, but he's last in line for gear and I have been taking my sweet time to make LGS since I'm not a masochist haha.

I like running Leg Shroud. I'm weird. I also had a lot of larges left from my legitimate ransacking of shroud.

Grailhawk

03-02-2016, 03:44 PM

Now that we have established that I'm as baddass as I claim, can the people who don't know anything about rangers stop posting so we can help the OP?

Weapon Focus is still not a "better" feat than Epic Damage Reduction for a new player, or even most vets.

Attropos

03-02-2016, 03:54 PM

Weapon Focus is still not a "better" feat than Epic Damage Reduction for a new player, or even most vets.

The only point of health that matters is the last one. You are always hitting enemies, you are rarely dying. I'll take a 2ish% dps increase 100% of combat time over 1% less damage any day of the week.

They should be taking blinding speed first anyways.

kalaka

03-02-2016, 04:00 PM

The only point of health that matters is the last one. You are always hitting enemies, you are rarely dying. I'll take a 2ish% dps increase 100% of combat time over 1% less damage any day of the week.

They should be taking blinding speed first anyways.

Blinding speed is a bad feat bro. Dontcha know?

HungarianRhapsody

03-02-2016, 04:05 PM

Blinding speed is a bad feat bro. Dontcha know?

Blinding Speed is a terrible feat if you're always hasted or have enough Speed through gear. If you don't have either of those, then Blinding Speed is just about the best feat in the game for melee or pew pew.

...now, you should always be hasted or have enough Speed through gear, so Blinding Speed is going to be a terrible feat if you're "doing it right". But if you don't have those (yet), then it's pretty awesome.

Attropos

03-02-2016, 04:11 PM

Blinding Speed is a terrible feat if you're always hasted or have enough Speed through gear. If you don't have either of those, then Blinding Speed is just about the best feat in the game for melee or pew pew.

...now, you should always be hasted or have enough Speed through gear, so Blinding Speed is going to be a terrible feat if you're "doing it right". But if you don't have those (yet), then it's pretty awesome.

Haste makes you move slightly faster iirc, and not having to slot an item is worth it in my opinion. Unlike displacement, I always want my speed bonus, so I would need to have waaayyyyy too many clickies to keep perma haste up without the feat. The speed loss if I ever let haste run out would probably kill me too...

If you have a speed item though, you're right, the effect is marginal. I just like not having to slot it on an item (can't find a good one to put it on) and the slightly faster speed. But to each their own.

kalaka

03-02-2016, 05:15 PM

Haste makes you move slightly faster iirc, and not having to slot an item is worth it in my opinion. Unlike displacement, I always want my speed bonus, so I would need to have waaayyyyy too many clickies to keep perma haste up without the feat. The speed loss if I ever let haste run out would probably kill me too...

If you have a speed item though, you're right, the effect is marginal. I just like not having to slot it on an item (can't find a good one to put it on) and the slightly faster speed. But to each their own.

Speed item doesn't fit in max dps gear. DPS loss from suboptimal gear>dps gain from swapping the feat.

No one casts haste anymore. Most warlocks I know don't even carry it. Blinding speed is max dps feat IMO. Clickies decrease your dps, and I'm already having to pop tensors scrolls and displacement clickies.

Marshal_Lannes

03-02-2016, 05:30 PM

Tempest smashes LE content, including TS. The Sorjek fight is trivial, and irrelevant. You keep bringing up how uberz you can pwn Sorjek, which is a fight you fight from a safe spot. I am able to range him from the safe spot with my Mineral 2 bow just fine also.

Tempests are drastically superior DPS to AAs, and have very good melee survivability. They are essentially "dodge tanks", and it works well in LE. You talk a big game for someone who is recently 30, and hasn't run much LE content. Lets see some LE solo videos, or LE experience at all.

The topic isn't how to solo LE. The topic is how to build a player friendly Ranger that can easily do 99% of the Content in the game. I will never have any self glorifying LE solo videos that scream look at my awesomesauce because, I have said, many many times, I have no desire to be a mini-Thor. I have provided examples of my dominating in some quests to show how strong the build is on a character that doesn't even have maxed out equipment or past lives.

As to your claim Tempests have drastically superior DPS to DWS/AA - source? And what is drastically? That certainly isn't quantifiable. You claim very good melee survivability yet you reference a LGS item in your posts. So your Tempest builds needs a LGS item to be survivable? And how many past lives of PRR you have on that? Is that new player friendly? The problem with dodge tanks is you only have so much dodge and you are still getting hit. So if you want a real comparison lets see what the Tempest DPS is vs the DWS/AA DPS and then factor in how the DWS/AA is almost never being hit vs the Tempest being wacked all the time. I mean your mark of 4000 damage doesn't impress me either, I easily surpass that in AOE damage, and my AoE damage again, comes from not being hit in return!

Look, I am glad there are lots of ways to play a Ranger it is a cool class, but with the vast majority of forum posts saying mobs hit too hard in LE content I am just not buying what you are selling. I'll stick with ranged thanks and would advise anyone else asking about the game to do the same.

Marshal_Lannes

03-02-2016, 05:40 PM

Plane of earth will be nil DPS in LE shroud, so it is irrelevant in my mind.

Ethereal plane is potentially the top DPS.

I love this one! Because Plane of Earth is the best DPS in 99.9% of the content in the game you pull out one quest like its a drop the mike moment! LOL. And no, Ethereal plane is not the top DPS. Scion of Earth is the top DPS when you look at all the content in the game and the available boosts to it. Perhaps you want to be a devil killer - then take Scion of Air and you will be top DPS in LE Shroud and Curse the Sky but you suffer vs undead so Scion of Earth still comes out on top.

blerkington

03-02-2016, 05:57 PM

Feat wise I would start with PBS, DM of Shadow, Precision.

Both your points aren't quite right.

Hi,

This reply is just more of the same uninformed nonsense you've posted so far, and you are just digging yourself in deeper with it.

Our endgame raids include a number of acid resistant and immune mobs. Denying that your DPS goes down when you attack them with acid is pointless. Props to Unbongwah for a considered reply which addresses how the game actually works and offers a workable alternative rather than your toddleresque approach of just closing your eyes and sticking your fingers into your ears.

It might also be worth pointing out that I haven't said that the imbues are bad overall or that people should not take them, just that they have certain drawbacks which under some circumstances can dramatically reduce the effectiveness of builds that rely upon them for a major part of their damage output. It's the same issue elemental sorcs have faced for years, and sensible people playing those builds take that into account by having a fallback method for doing damage rather than just refusing to admit that there is a problem.

As for 'theory crafting on the forums', that was funny, thank you. One moment you are claiming that as a new player you are unburdened by the approach, viewpoint and experiences of veteran players. The next you are contradicting yourself by arguing that you somehow have in-game experience that veteran players do not. Neither of these arguments is convincing, but your attempts to justify yourself would be considerably less ridiculous if you at least kept your story internally consistent.

Obviously you are not the only person who ever had to make decisions about how to get displacement for your character, and it might do you some good to consider alternative approaches and the benefits that come from them, rather than insisting your way is best when it clearly has drawbacks. Lecturing us about hidebound vets who can't change their ways in one breath, then the next moment refusing to see the merit in alternative approaches is just more of your trademark self-contradiction and it doesn't help your credibility at all.

There is obviously a feat and AP cost to using the DM. I really don't see the point in paying for it in a build when I could get the same benefit for free through gear, then can spend that feat slot and those AP on other goodies instead. I've already said why I think people might take it under certain circumstances, and I don't think it's a terrible choice, just somewhat of a waste because of the overkill and availability of other solutions.

But in a build where the design goal is to have melee and ranged feats and good self healing, there's not really room for it without losing something else potentially more valuable like quicken or IC:ranged. Again, OP, if you are going to take the dragonmark feat, please don't do it early on like Marshall is encouraging you, because if you decide to swap for another feat later on that has prerequisites you may find that it isn't possible without reincarnating. It's this sort of poor quality advice to new players which is harmful rather than helpful.

Thanks.

kalaka

03-02-2016, 06:01 PM

I love this one! Because Plane of Earth is the best DPS in 99.9% of the content in the game you pull out one quest like its a drop the mike moment! LOL. And no, Ethereal plane is not the top DPS. Scion of Earth is the top DPS when you look at all the content in the game and the available boosts to it. Perhaps you want to be a devil killer - then take Scion of Air and you will be top DPS in LE Shroud and Curse the Sky but you suffer vs undead so Scion of Earth still comes out on top.

LE shroud is the only content worth building for. The rest is faceroll.

Tempest out DPSes AA. That is just fact. As for AoE dps...do you want to compare my AoE DPS with dance of death? I did 7k damage per a second sustained to a red named boss, as an elven khopesh user. On helpless trash I am doing 64,400 DPS to 4 targets with dance of death. Being human now will only increase that. Does 64.4k dps impress you? Go make a video of you killing the EE cabal first boss (guy you can skip or fight). He has 103k HP. Kill him in under 14 seconds. That is more than 7k DPS.

You ask do I need gear to be survivable? Yes gear is needed to be survivable. As for my past lives, I have them all. I barely get hit by trash, due to dire charge and stunning blow. Dodge negates 68% of incoming attacks, and I have enough prr and hp to take 2-3 hits from LE mobs. There is only a 10% chance for me to be hit twice in a row, so even on bosses I am fine as long as they aren't a double strike mob. I have taken hits from Sorjek LE and lived. I usually melee Sorjek. I am able to melee and be extremely survivable. I come from the land of non froob DDO and played melee in old epics. I'm not used to easy button, and am able to "out play" mobs. The player behind the keyboard can add massive amounts of survivability to a character in this game.

Maybe you need to get off the ez button trash DPS train and learn to play this game.

Attropos

03-02-2016, 06:20 PM

The topic isn't how to solo LE. The topic is how to build a player friendly Ranger that can easily do 99% of the Content in the game. I will never have any self glorifying LE solo videos that scream look at my awesomesauce because, I have said, many many times, I have no desire to be a mini-Thor. I have provided examples of my dominating in some quests to show how strong the build is on a character that doesn't even have maxed out equipment or past lives.

As to your claim Tempests have drastically superior DPS to DWS/AA - source? And what is drastically? That certainly isn't quantifiable. You claim very good melee survivability yet you reference a LGS item in your posts. So your Tempest builds needs a LGS item to be survivable? And how many past lives of PRR you have on that? Is that new player friendly? The problem with dodge tanks is you only have so much dodge and you are still getting hit. So if you want a real comparison lets see what the Tempest DPS is vs the DWS/AA DPS and then factor in how the DWS/AA is almost never being hit vs the Tempest being wacked all the time. I mean your mark of 4000 damage doesn't impress me either, I easily surpass that in AOE damage, and my AoE damage again, comes from not being hit in return!

Look, I am glad there are lots of ways to play a Ranger it is a cool class, but with the vast majority of forum posts saying mobs hit too hard in LE content I am just not buying what you are selling. I'll stick with ranged thanks and would advise anyone else asking about the game to do the same.

Marshal,

I read your elven archer post and am very glad that you are having fun in game. But a lot of your posts are extremely contradictory. You talk about not wanting to be a mini-Thor, and in the next part you talk about "dominating content". You talk about quantifying content, and then you go on later in your post with qualitative analysis. I think you should listen to some of these people in the thread, and you might learn a lot about how the game ends up working.

If you want quantitative numbers, over about a minute, the tempest ranger will put out about twice as much dps as the arcane archer against one target. Dance of death is better AoE than IPS. 1k cuts is better than multishot. In every qualitative manner, when talking about DPS, an arcane archer is worse.

The survivability is better.... for you. Part of playing in a group is learning when and how to kite. Many, both experienced and new, players don't know how to kite properly (in tight circles, dodging melee attacks manually), and end up stringing the mobs in long patterns that make it impossible for the melees in the party to hit the monsters. In the long run, this is massively negative dps, because if one person dies, then only that person isn't doing dps. If three people can't hit the monster, then three people aren't doing dps. Remember, that even if one person -seems- to be doing everything, a quest is a group project, and the more people participating, the faster it will get done.

But tempest survivability is almost as good (and better for brief bursts) then for archers. There's an ability in particular called exposing strike that turns your target around and makes them unable to hit you for a short time. You can keep this up almost half of the time. Improved parry is another great ability that gives a ton of dodge to tempest rangers. Tempest rangers take a little while to get used to, but end up being extremely survivable for a melee.

A tempest ranger needs no past lives, melee or epic, to be significantly more damage than the AA, and survivability will be about even once the ranger learns how to use his active attacks.

And when I talk about survivability, I only mean in LE and EE content. In EH content and lower EE, survivability is infinitely better for the tempest because dead monsters don't hurt.

Play what you want to play, but don't talk about things you don't know about.

Marshal_Lannes

03-02-2016, 07:22 PM

You ask do I need gear to be survivable? Yes gear is needed to be survivable. As for my past lives, I have them all. I barely get hit by trash, due to dire charge and stunning blow. Dodge negates 68% of incoming attacks, and I have enough prr and hp to take 2-3 hits from LE mobs. There is only a 10% chance for me to be hit twice in a row, so even on bosses I am fine as long as they aren't a double strike mob. I have taken hits from Sorjek LE and lived. I usually melee Sorjek. I am able to melee and be extremely survivable. I come from the land of non froob DDO and played melee in old epics. I'm not used to easy button, and am able to "out play" mobs. The player behind the keyboard can add massive amounts of survivability to a character in this game.

Maybe you need to get off the ez button trash DPS train and learn to play this game.

Once again, this thread is not about building a LE solo build! To get all the past lives you need 400 million + xp and the LGS gear you are using. That is hardly player friendly.

Marshal_Lannes

03-02-2016, 07:26 PM

If you want quantitative numbers, over about a minute, the tempest ranger will put out about twice as much dps as the arcane archer against one target. Dance of death is better AoE than IPS. 1k cuts is better than multishot. In every qualitative manner, when talking about DPS, an arcane archer is worse.

.

Honestly all the Tempests I see are soul stones around Sorjek. I keep hearing how survivable Tempests are, but I still keep seeing their soul stones. Sorjek pulls back, ding, ding, ding - control we just lost 5 more melee, raise em up again. Sorry, I just disagree. Again, I base my results on actual game play and things I see in game, your results may vary.

Marshal_Lannes

03-02-2016, 07:36 PM

Our endgame raids include a number of acid resistant and immune mobs. Denying that your DPS goes down when you attack them with acid is pointless.
You and many others have said end game is TRing. If you mean Legendary content we only have a couple quests. The next Legendary pack likely won't be devils since they just did devils. Very few mobs in the game have resistance to acid. Scion of Earth is the best damage against those 99.9% of quests not named Legendary Shroud or Curse the Sky. In my Analysis of an Elven Ranger I state that even when Abashai are immune to acid in say Devil's Gambit I still had enough DPS to lead the kill count

Props to Unbongwah for a considered reply which addresses how the game actually works and offers a workable alternative rather than your toddleresque approach of just closing your eyes and sticking your fingers into your ears.

How many names can this guy call me before getting infractions? Ubongwah did give some solid choices if you don't want MAX DPS

There is obviously a feat and AP cost to using the DM. I really don't see the point in paying for it in a build when I could get the same benefit for free through gear, then can spend that feat slot and those AP on other goodies instead.

I already addressed this, its not free, takes up inventory space, mats to build, time to shrine, etc

But in a build where the design goal is to have melee and ranged feats and good self healing, there's not really room for it without losing something else potentially more valuable like quicken or IC:ranged. It's this sort of poor quality advice to new players which is harmful rather than helpful.
Never once have I used or ever wanted quicken on a Ranger. I advise him to take IC ranged. My advise iactually is helpful, it is others on here who are giving scenarios where they have 40 past lives and LGS gear to get the desired results who are giving distorted visions of performance. I am giving a rock solid new player build that needs nothing but a few bows and random loot pulls

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Responses in bold

Alfhild

03-02-2016, 07:59 PM

Never once have I used or ever wanted quicken on a Ranger. I advise him to take IC ranged. My advise iactually is helpful, it is others on here who are giving scenarios where they have 40 past lives and LGS gear to get the desired results who are giving distorted visions of performance. I am giving a rock solid new player build that needs nothing but a few bows and random loot pulls

The OP wants to play a melee Ranger with ranged as a backup. Advising him not to take Quicken is poor advice since it essentially means his CSW in upper level HE's and epic levels becomes worthless since it will be interrupted no matter how much he has invested in Concentration. Also if using Cocoon, the cast time is such that in a dire situation, it too at times becomes worthless and at best causes a loss of DPS. You are giving advice which is contradicted by the actual gameplay of those who have played not only Tempests, but any Self Healing melee.

As for Scion of Earth (or any element for that matter), there is much to be said for it in conjunction with AA imbues. But again, since the OP is playing a melee ranger, AA imbues are not relevant, only the Scion component on melee is. If you wish to convince people that Spell Power augmented Scion of Earth will outdamage Ethereal or Arborea, please provide the math.

blerkington

03-02-2016, 08:15 PM

Responses in bold

You and many others have said end game is TRing. If you mean Legendary content we only have a couple quests. The next Legendary pack likely won't be devils since they just did devils. Very few mobs in the game have resistance to acid. Scion of Earth is the best damage against those 99.9% of quests not named Legendary Shroud or Curse the Sky. In my Analysis of an Elven Ranger I state that even when Abashai are immune to acid in say Devil's Gambit I still had enough DPS to lead the kill count

How many names can this guy call me before getting infractions? Ubongwah did give some solid choices if you don't want MAX DPS

I already addressed this, its not free, takes up inventory space, mats to build, time to shrine, etc

Never once have I used or ever wanted quicken on a Ranger. I advise him to take IC ranged. My advise iactually is helpful, it is others on here who are giving scenarios where they have 40 past lives and LGS gear to get the desired results who are giving distorted visions of performance. I am giving a rock solid new player build that needs nothing but a few bows and random loot pulls

Hi,

Provide a quote where I say TRing is anything other than part of the endgame. I don't think you will be able to find one, and this habit of yours of making claims without being able to support them is getting old. Every time you do it, it just looks worse and worse, because it shows those claims cannot be trusted. Try to think of it as a bad habit, like picking your nose in front of other people, and strive to correct it both for your sake and ours.

99.9% is a number you have invented, unless you care to show the work you used to arrive at it. Particularly for someone like you, who is parking your character at cap rather than reincarnating, it doesn't really matter if acid affects most monsters in the game. Well, it might if you intend to run kobold assault and arachnophobia with same frequency that you do defiler and shroud. What matters is how well it works on the content you are running, and if you run these raids with specialisation in that element, you will not be performing well.

I have not called you any names. You will notice that the part of my post you've quoted refers to your approach to posting, not to you personally. One solution to having your posting style criticised is to complain about it and beg for help from the moderators as you are now and have done before, but I'd argue a better approach is modify your posting style so you say accurate things and make logical arguments. So why not abandon those bad old habits and enter your own personal golden age of intellectual honesty instead?

If you have materials already, then the cost of making displacement clickies is negligible. Shrining is not a cost and may not be required if you have a few of clickies, and this hardcore zerging argument does seem to contradict your previous posts about taking your time and seeing all of the quests. It almost sounds like something one of us filthy scumbag mini-thor veterans might say. The irony of you - of all people - attempting to use the argument that shrining takes too long for it be practical is just delicious.

But you are missing the real point here, which is that DM based displacement has a cost of at least one feat (two if you also take extend) and a bunch of AP. There is a substantial opportunity cost there, especially for a build which is tight on feats and AP because they are stretched between supporting two combat styles and self healing.

Regarding your poor advice about when to take the DM, take another look at the quote. You are saying to take the DM early on, for a stage of the game where it isn't required, and at a level point where swapping it for something else will cause problems. That is part of the bad advice to which I was referring. Some of the other build advice you've provided is less harmful, but it's clear you haven't played a tempest and are just trying to turn your own ranged build into something different on the fly while claiming one size fits all. And that is after assuring us early on that your ranger thread contains everything anyone would need to build a ranger.

Thanks.

Attropos

03-02-2016, 08:35 PM

Honestly all the Tempests I see are soul stones around Sorjek. I keep hearing how survivable Tempests are, but I still keep seeing their soul stones. Sorjek pulls back, ding, ding, ding - control we just lost 5 more melee, raise em up again. Sorry, I just disagree. Again, I base my results on actual game play and things I see in game, your results may vary.

If you saw this on LN or LH TS..... well, the problem is between the head and the keyboard, not with the character. If you have run LE TS..... uh.... congrats I guess? Tons of ranged die in there as well at the end fight. In all of the content you have talked about playing in your thread though, this will not be the case.

The dirty truth is that archers are low skill floor, low skill cap characters. Is it easier to survive in LE content as ranged? Yeah, but you're losing out on DPS. Play whatever you want. You might be more DPS as a ranged than you are as a melee. But the best melee is light years ahead of ranged in terms of DPS. I don't play an archer because I personally find them boring. If you like it, great! But this post is about melee.

You run with bad players because you refuse to play with better players. You would rather call everyone better than you a zerger or a "Mini thor". What server are you on? I will roll up a fresh level 20, cap one destiny, and outkill you in every single quest you run. I can do it as a melee. I can do it as a caster. I can do it as an archer. I'm sure a lot of people can. Blerkington definitely can. Only part of this game is build, the rest is player skill.

Why do you hate running with zergers? Is it because you feel useless? You have no idea what is going on? That's the difference between good players and bad players. The players you consistently hate on are the players who will give you the best advice about getting better at this game.

Tl;dr Lighten up Francis. Get better. Or don't. I don't care. Hopefully OP will realize what is good advice and what is bad advice. Now stop derailing the post please.

Assassination

03-02-2016, 08:41 PM

If you were running in LD instead, I would recommend 42 DWS 31 Tempest 6 AA (Morphic Arrows) with 1 pt of filler. [Maybe 7 APs AA for EotW+Conj Arrows.] That way your crit specs would be 14-18/x3 19-20/x5 w/scimitars and 17-18/x3 19-20/x5 w/longbows (IC:Ranged+DWS core+Pulverizer all stack). Should have 120 MP/RP from Horizon Shot+Blitz+epic lvls too. :)

Just wanted to thank Unbongwah for the great advise, this is playing very nicely. Dps is very impressive (hard to quantify I know) and I've found my survivability has not suffered. I'm getting blitz to 10 stacks rather quickly and keeping it going for the most part. OP if you are still reading this, you might enjoy this build...:) I may push more into tempest and up my dps, but this is a very viable build.

QuantumFX

03-02-2016, 11:13 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FONN-0uoTHI

Marshal_Lannes

03-03-2016, 04:32 AM

The dirty truth is that archers are low skill floor, low skill cap characters. Is it easier to survive in LE content as ranged? Yeah, but you're losing out on DPS. Play whatever you want. You might be more DPS as a ranged than you are as a melee. But the best melee is light years ahead of ranged in terms of DPS. I don't play an archer because I personally find them boring. If you like it, great! But this post is about melee.

The thread was about a guy trying out the duality of Ranger in Ranged and Melee. I faced the exact same choices and considered the exact same things. My Analysis of an Elven Ranger sums up why I eventually went ranged. I thank you for actually reading my post instead of skimming 3 paragraphs like many have done. Sorry I disagree, Ranged is just superior, let's let the OP decide.

You run with bad players because you refuse to play with better players. You would rather call everyone better than you a zerger or a "Mini thor". What server are you on? I will roll up a fresh level 20, cap one destiny, and outkill you in every single quest you run. I can do it as a melee. I can do it as a caster. I can do it as an archer. I'm sure a lot of people can. Blerkington definitely can. Only part of this game is build, the rest is player skill.

I am on Orien. I am currently starting a Vampire build group that has one spot open, we are starting this Friday. You are free to join. I will not game with Blerk as he has constantly stalked my posts and made continual harrassing comments to me. I have nothing to learn from someone like him. I encourage all players to break the mold and join the new generation.

Why do you hate running with zergers? Is it because you feel useless? You have no idea what is going on? That's the difference between good players and bad players. The players you consistently hate on are the players who will give you the best advice about getting better at this game.
No No NO. People like Unbogwah give great advice. The Entrenched Mini-thor set has no advice to give, you have seen examples of it in this thread. They just want to protect their Mini-Thordom. I have already said the people who post on the forums are in the top 10% of players in game. My Ranger is better than the vast majority of people I play with maybe because, as I have seen here, people just don't know how to play a DWS/AA Ranger and still think it is 2012. I don't play with Zergers because as I have said, they ruin the fun for the rest of the party, this is off topic and you can search many areas where i describe how this happens
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Bolded

Marshal_Lannes

03-03-2016, 04:42 AM

H. And that is after assuring us early on that your ranger thread contains everything anyone would need to build a ranger.

.

Yes, I have provided the definitive new player Elven Ranger build thread. I am sorry if you don't like it. Maybe you should contribute things instead of tearing down what others have achieved? I have read nothing from you on these forums except negativity. I stand by my Analysis of an Elven Ranger and it is the perfect way a new player can complete 99.9% of the game.

blerkington

03-03-2016, 06:58 AM

Yes, I have provided the definitive new player Elven Ranger build thread. I am sorry if you don't like it. Maybe you should contribute things instead of tearing down what others have achieved? I have read nothing from you on these forums except negativity. I stand by my Analysis of an Elven Ranger and it is the perfect way a new player can complete 99.9% of the game.

Hi,

Try to move beyond the personal with this. Put aside the hurt feelings and see if you can do something productive with the criticisms made of your work.

Your problems in this thread all stem from over-reaching yourself. Making claims which are too large to support, then reacting badly when people disagree. No-one is impressed with self-proclaimed experts, especially when they can't back their claims up. Let your work speak for you, don't boast about how great you are, because all that does is paint a target on your back.

When you entered the thread, you didn't even bother to ask the OP what sort of ranger he wanted to build. In fact, you didn't ask him any questions at all. Instead, you told him that you'd written a thread which contains everything everyone needs to know about building a ranger. To me, that seemed like an incredibly poor start, because it showed no real interest in what the OP wanted and just seemed like you wanted to advertise your work and push your opinions onto other people.

As we've seen, it turned out that the OP wanted to use a melee build, about which your thread says almost nothing at all. Even so, you persist in claiming you've written a complete and definitive thread about rangers, when in fact you've done nothing of the sort. It's like you've learnt nothing at all from that initial mistake.

Your ranger thread could be more useful if it contained more detailed information about playstyle, gearing and build. If you added those things, it would make your guide a better resource. That in turn might lead to people thinking and saying it is a useful resource, rather than you having to drop into these build threads to promote yourself and then be offended when others disagree with your own estimation of the value of your work.

Like I said before, in its current form it's more of a diary than an analysis. At the moment, it also only talks about ranged play. That's fine in itself, but it can hardly be considered a complete ranger build document when it doesn't cover two out of three of the main approaches to running a ranger. But you can fix that. Just make it better than it is, or start describing it in way where the label matches what is in the tin.

Despite your fantasies about a cabal of evil veterans setting out to make you fail, nothing of the sort is happening. You could be a very well-liked and productive member of the community if you provide good resources and dialed back the boasting. There's still time to make that change, and I wish you luck with it.

Thanks.

ThomasHunter

03-07-2016, 12:53 PM

Attropos

03-07-2016, 01:54 PM

Assassination

03-07-2016, 08:19 PM

One thing that I was also considering was capping DWS instead of Tempest which someone else has tried. I may experiment a bit.

I've been running with DWS cap and tier 5's. I think it works really well, especially if you like to mix in some ranged action. I'm running 42 pts in DWS, 31 in Tempest, 7 in AA. Some will say it's suboptimal, and for pure dps numbers it is, but I enjoy the varied play. Running in dreadnaught and blitzing is a pretty fun. Good luck.

KodeWraith

03-09-2016, 02:18 PM

One thing that I was also considering was capping DWS instead of Tempest which someone else has tried. I may experiment a bit..

The way I look at it:
1) Tempest Cap +T5 is 100% melee
2) pure AA/DWS is 100% ranged
3) DWScap+t5 + TempestT4 is about 75% melee and 75% ranged.

Just my experience... afaict it depends a lot on your play style.
a) I never pull out my bow.
b) I pull out my bow only when multishot is up.
c) I never pull out my swords

For pure melee only, Tempest T5 and cores are terrifyingly awesome. You can do ridiculous damage to multiple things at once and get ridiculous armor piercing abilities. If you look at the Zergod 20 thread, that's his playstyle, all melee all the time. Full stat damage to your offhand and is almost always better than 10 melee power (tempest cap gives 10 mp so it's a delta of 10mp after you factor in the DS from tempest). Also keep in mind that 25% offhand double strike IS just double strike since you're getting the same damage from both swords with Dual Perfection.

For pure ranged, the two allocations that seems to work best are DWS (cap + T5)@41ap + AA(T4) @31ap + 8 your choice OR T5 DWS39 + 41 AA cap which leaves basically nothing for anythign else.

Either way, you always want at least up to core 4 in DWS for the + crit range. The problem is that you'll either get + crit mult on melee OR ranged but not both.

Now having said that, DWS T5 is pretty nice if you want to pull out your bow half the time. It gives you a huge boost in ranged damage over nothing, but still not nearly as big as a pure ranged toon. What you lose is melee damage.

Side Note: I found Tempest T5 did way more damage than DWS T5 on my pally/ranger (14/6) from last life. In this case the +crit was from HS, so that part washed out.

Jiirix

03-10-2016, 04:59 AM

I appreciate all of the input. I liked reading the different thoughts and opinions as well. One thing that I was also considering was capping DWS instead of Tempest which someone else has tried. I may experiment a bit.

One thing I noticed on unbongwah's build is that it was True Neutral. What are the reasons? Hoping Unbongwah is still checking this thread!

I just reached 20 and will be TRing soon!

Thanks again all!

As far as I know Unbo takes True Neutral on every build that has no alignment restriction.
Benefits of True Neutral: Less damage from some mobs. Some chaotic and evil attacks do more damage to lawful good heroes. Like the six Khopeshes of epic Queen Lailat. Those have Unholy Burst and Anarchic Burst on them and both effects do no damage to True neutral heroes. An other benefit of a non good alignment is that you can wear items with Taint of Evil (epic Litany) without getting a negative level. That true neutral heroes can wear stabiltity items isn't important anymore.

The only benefit from non-neutral alingments is that you can get extra damage flags from Blessed Blades (Divine Crusader) or Purify Weapon (Unyielding Sentinel, good only) and that you an equip pure good weapons without UMD 20 (very easy to get that in epic levels)

Mindos

03-10-2016, 11:49 AM

The only benefit from non-neutral alingments is that you can get extra damage flags from Blessed Blades (Divine Crusader) or Purify Weapon (Unyielding Sentinel, good only) and that you an equip pure good weapons without UMD 20 (very easy to get that in epic levels)

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ring_of_the_Ancestors

The only case I know of that has umd 0

(http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ring_of_the_Ancestors)

ThomasHunter

03-10-2016, 04:18 PM

blerkington

03-10-2016, 04:24 PM

Was thinking about short swords again based on the fact that I have a bunch and have access to Celestia x2 for epic leveling. Is that worthwhile or just a garbage idea?

An aside - will Celestia break DR on all of the many monsters we fight at cap? Like devils and abishai?

Hi,

Shortswords generally aren't great weapons because of their poor crit profile and multiplier. They can get better when they are boosted by certain enhancements, but the weapon best supported by the tempest tree is the scimitar if you plan to make a DEX build.

There are also weapon bonuses for scimitar in the elf tree, though they are kind of expensive and unfortunately also paired with bonuses for the shortbow rather than the longbow. If you were going to take these, rapier/longbow might be the better choice, though going that way means losing out on using DEX to hit with your melee weapons from your tempest core enhancements.

Celestia is convenient for breaking DR, but in most cases you will have other options that bypass DR and also do more damage. There are a bunch of abilities which can ruin Celestia's DR breaking, and building around that weapon means some of those abilities will be off limits to you.

Thanks.

ThomasHunter

03-13-2016, 10:52 PM

blerkington

03-13-2016, 11:04 PM

For the token turn in, I can grab 10 commendations to help upgrade my Pinion from the Raiders Box or the Unwavering Ardency which seems really quite good with 2[1d12] base damage and a x3 crit on 18-20. Given that that doubles, the crit seems also nice.

Is that better to take given that I have NEVER run that raid? Note that my guild will run FoT sometimes, so comms are a possibility.

Thanks again for the help (just got to 20!).

Hi,

Unwavering Ardency is a nice weapon, but it's most valuable for levelling a bow build from 14 to 23 after which you'd probably switch to your Pinion. So if you were planning on doing more bow based lives, it could be a good choice. But if you're going to stay at cap you might find it just gathering dust in the bank while you use better weapons.

It won't take long to get CoHs from running FoT a few times. If you say you need them at looting time, you might even find people will pass you their extras. I see people put them up for roll all the time in PUGs, and I imagine it might be even easier to get some more in a guild group.

There might be a third option worth considering from your token. That being said, neither of the two things you've suggested is anywhere near as bad as taking a Hellfire Crossbow, and I don't think taking UA or the CoHs would be a bad mistake.

Thanks.

unbongwah

03-14-2016, 09:48 AM

For the token turn in, I can grab 10 commendations to help upgrade my Pinion from the Raiders Box or the Unwavering Ardency which seems really quite good with 2[1d12] base damage and a x3 crit on 18-20. Given that that doubles, the crit seems also nice.
If you're talking about the crit range: sorry, IC:Ranged no longer doubles it, it only adds +1, which is why Turbine tweaked the base crit range from 19-20/x3 to 18-20/x3. So on a pure rgr, by lvl 18 w/IC:Ranged+Shadow Arrows+Adv Sneak Atk, UA has 16-20/x4 crit spec. Which is as good as it gets for heroic longbows.

As for whether you should take UA, that depends on your long-term plans. Do you have a bunch of HTRs or ITRs you want to do as a purely ranged toon? If so, UA is your best option for lvls 14-22 and you should take one (IMO). OTOH, if you plan to focus solely on epics (either endgame or EPL farming), an upgraded Pinion is more valuable as you farm for an endgame bow (whatever that ends up being).

EllisDee37

03-14-2016, 10:03 AM

Unwavering Ardency is great if you already have it, but it's not worth spending your token on. Grab a Bow of Sinew (better crit profile but lower base damage) for the teens and save your token for something else.

A level 18 ranger with both crit enhancements:

Unwavering Ardency: 16-20x4, ML14, +3 2[1d12] = 16 base damage
Bow of Sinew: 16-20x4, 19-20x5, ML14, +5 1[1d8] = 9.5 base damage

Bow of Sinew is pretty easy to farm, and is BTA. It might even be guaranteed in a 3rd list; not sure.

unbongwah

03-14-2016, 10:30 AM

Unwavering Ardency: 16-20x4, ML14, +3 2[1d12] = 16 base damage
Bow of Sinew: 16-20x4, 19-20x5, ML14, +5 1[1d8] = 9.5 base damage
Don't forget that most of the time you'll be in PBS range, so it's more like 3[1d12] + 3 (22.5 base dmg) vs 2[1d8] + 5 (14 base dmg), or a 60% increase in base dmg. Ofc, that ignores Deadly bonuses etc., so the actual difference in DPS is smaller; but effectively it's the equivalent of having +17 DEX or STR (whichever is your dmg stat). BoS is +2 effective hits, but that's only +6% DPS. I think you can find +8 Seeker on heroic random lootgen these days, but I'm not sure about that. EDIT: Flaming Burst is +2.75 dmg per hit - not much, but every little bit helps.

Again, whether it's worth claiming depends on how much time OP plans to spend in the lvl 14-22 range.

EllisDee37

03-14-2016, 12:39 PM

Don't forget that most of the time you'll be in PBS range, so it's more like 3[1d12] + 3 (22.5 base dmg) vs 2[1d8] + 5 (14 base dmg), or a 60% increase in base dmg. Ofc, that ignores Deadly bonuses etc., so the actual difference in DPS is smaller; but effectively it's the equivalent of having +17 DEX or STR (whichever is your dmg stat). BoS is +2 effective hits, but that's only +6% DPS. I think you can find +8 Seeker on heroic random lootgen these days, but I'm not sure about that. EDIT: Flaming Burst is +2.75 dmg per hit - not much, but every little bit helps.Don't forget +0.25[W] from ship buffs, plus possibly +4 seeker from ship buffs.

Unwavering Ardency's advantage isn't trivial, but it is static. Bow of Sinew's advantage scales. The more damage you do, the better off you are with Bow of Sinew. However, Unwavering Ardency's static advantage is big enough that you need to do a lot of damage before Bow of Sinew can catch up.

If you were given both for free, it would be an interesting choice. But if you're given Bow of Sinew for free (which it essentially is), then after that you're given the option to sacrifice something very valuable (like pinion, or quiver of alacrity) to also get Unwavering Ardency? Best to just stick with Bow of Sinew.

unbongwah

03-14-2016, 12:52 PM

If you were given both for free, it would be an interesting choice. But if you're given Bow of Sinew for free (which it essentially is), then after that you're given the option to sacrifice something very valuable (like pinion, or quiver of alacrity) to also get Unwavering Ardency? Best to just stick with Bow of Sinew.
Sure, if OP had asked, "Should I take UA or Pinion," I would've said Pinion (unless this is a heroic-only char). But OP's question was "I can grab 10 commendations to help upgrade my Pinion from the Raiders Box or the Unwavering Ardency;" I'm inferring he already has a Pinion, so a second one is unnecessary. Then he said, "Is that better to take given that I have NEVER run that raid? Note that my guild will run FoT sometimes, so comms are a possibility." Again, I'm inferring he means he never runs Abbot and would therefore never get to pull an UA on this toon; but he can sometimes run FoT and thus pull CoHs the old-fashioned way. [EDIT: it takes 25 CoHs to fully upgrade Pinion, so 10 free gets him 40% of the way.] So, of the two options the OP asked about, I gave my reasons for why UA is worth considering. Obviously, my response gets a lot more complicated if OP had just asked a blanket "which freebie should I claim?" question... ;)

EllisDee37

03-14-2016, 01:14 PM

I also mentioned quiver of alacrity, from the same never-run raid as unwavering ardency. It's particularly useful for an archer.

ThomasHunter

03-14-2016, 01:29 PM

I also mentioned quiver of alacrity, from the same never-run raid as unwavering ardency. It's particularly useful for an archer.

Doesn't a Speed item start making up for this pretty quickly? Have a Speed 8 item, so I think that is only 2% less than the quiver.

Now for the TWIST on this thread. Played around this morning a bit. Reset enhancements to try a more ranged-focused toon. Wow, that seems fun. However, I wasn't aware you could NOT get electrified arrows and paralyzing arrows at the same time. So, I might go back to only 8 points in AA and 13 (or so) in Tempest. I think I like the melee option from time to time. But, after only a few quests, ranged is sure fun. I mean, I have an arti, but I've always wanted a bow user. I think this could be the toon.

Again, thanks for all the help for sure. This has been a great thread to learn from. Need to loot and gear up now. I'm thinking Pinion with Planar Focus will get me through the mid-twenties easily enough.

Overall, DWS has some really fun toys in it! Decent cooldowns keep it pretty fun. Look forward to making it over to Shiradi (in Grandmaster right now). What ED is popular for ranged? I know a bit about the big stuff in Fury (never experienced 18k arrows!!!!), so might go there to see what the hubbub is all about!:cool:

EllisDee37

03-14-2016, 01:36 PM

I think Legendary Dreadnaught is popular for Master's Blitz, with the idea being manyshot it up to full stacks right out of the gate. Not sure if that still works, to be honest. Do doubleshots have their own chance to proc stacks?

Divine Crusader offers lots of doubleshot and ranged power from Zeal, so if keeping blitz stacks up is an issue, DC is a solid option. Shiradi might be interesting to start with, though, since I think archers tend to twist a lot from Shiradi anyway.

unbongwah

03-14-2016, 03:32 PM

However, I wasn't aware you could NOT get electrified arrows and paralyzing arrows at the same time.
Yes, you can only have one primary and one secondary imbue active simultaneously; the core imbues are secondary while the tiered imbues are primary. So an AA build like White Feather (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/469680-White-Feather-Sniper-A-DPS-and-CC-focused-full-time-ranged-pure-ranger) alternates between Paralyzing for trash mobs and shock for DPS (boss fights).

So, I might go back to only 8 points in AA and 13 (or so) in Tempest.
As I suggested upthread, I think 42 DWS / 31 AA / 7 Tempest (or reverse AA & Tempest) is a reasonable spread for melee / ranged hybrid ranger. Not the best at either combat style, but works decently if you're splitting your time, say, 80/20 melee vs ranged.

What ED is popular for ranged? I know a bit about the big stuff in Fury (never experienced 18k arrows!!!!), so might go there to see what the hubbub is all about!:cool:
FotW for burst DPS (Slaying Arrow + Adrenaline + Manyshot); Dreadnought or Crusader for sustained DPS. LD relies on sustaining Blitz, of course, which can be more challenging; whereas DC is more predictable between Celestial Champion + Zeal of the Righteous - the extra healing doesn't hurt, either. :)

Pin is the one must-have Twist on a ranged toon, IMO, b/c it's the only ranged atk which induces helplessness, AFAIK. Otto's Whistler is a nice secondary CC ability, ofc, but less essential IMO.

Marshal_Lannes

03-14-2016, 06:26 PM

Doesn't a Speed item start making up for this pretty quickly? Have a Speed 8 item, so I think that is only 2% less than the quiver.

Now for the TWIST on this thread. Played around this morning a bit. Reset enhancements to try a more ranged-focused toon. Wow, that seems fun. However, I wasn't aware you could NOT get electrified arrows and paralyzing arrows at the same time. So, I might go back to only 8 points in AA and 13 (or so) in Tempest. I think I like the melee option from time to time. But, after only a few quests, ranged is sure fun. I mean, I have an arti, but I've always wanted a bow user. I think this could be the toon.

Again, thanks for all the help for sure. This has been a great thread to learn from. Need to loot and gear up now. I'm thinking Pinion with Planar Focus will get me through the mid-twenties easily enough.

Overall, DWS has some really fun toys in it! Decent cooldowns keep it pretty fun. Look forward to making it over to Shiradi (in Grandmaster right now). What ED is popular for ranged? I know a bit about the big stuff in Fury (never experienced 18k arrows!!!!), so might go there to see what the hubbub is all about!:cool:

LOL, this is what I tried to tell you before some people jumped all over me. I did the exact same thing, thought I wanted to melee until I saw how great Ranger ranged DPS is and yes the DWS tree is amazing. You might as well go full Ranged now and take the elemental imbues from AA. You don't need paralyzing arrows, their DPS is terrible compared to elemental imbues. If you want to go electric, get an electric item and buff up your spell power. I would take Pinion and Unwavering Ardency. You can always get COMs from running FoT. Alacrity actually adds very little to your attack speed, there is a thread somewhere that shows how much your RoF speeds up and alacrity does very little for it. Plus you'll want one of the doubleshot quivers eventually. For epic twists I would go:

Pin
Spell power +30 electric
Cocoon

Another option is take energy burst since you are going to have a high spell power in your main element and even assuming mobs make their saves it is still lots of damage.

blerkington

03-14-2016, 07:18 PM

Pin is the one must-have Twist on a ranged toon, IMO, b/c it's the only ranged atk which induces helplessness, AFAIK. Otto's Whistler is a nice secondary CC ability, ofc, but less essential IMO.

Hi,

Whistler also induces helplessness.

Pinned enemies can still move and fight back, though they do so at a much slower rate. Whistler keeps the enemy from moving or attacking at all while the effect is active. They both have the same duration, but whistler can be more difficult to apply, especially against enemies which have stop-start movement.

More enemies seem vulnerable to pin than to whistler, though there are some creatures which are vulnerable to whistler but not pin. Whistler is useful for stopping things which are chasing you, which can be a life saver in harder content, but you can still apply a pin to a moving enemy if you get a deception proc or use an ability like sniper shot. You have to be quick though.

They are both very useful abilities, and if you have room, it's great to have both. Bear in mind that the additional damage you get against helpless enemies will usually be a lot more than you would from a small amount of additional spellpower, plus these effects also boost damage done by other party members and provide CC to make harder content safer.

Thanks.

Mindos

03-14-2016, 07:42 PM

Unwavering Ardency's advantage isn't trivial, but it is static. Bow of Sinew's advantage scales. The more damage you do, the better off you are with Bow of Sinew. However, Unwavering Ardency's static advantage is big enough that you need to do a lot of damage before Bow of Sinew can catch up.

Where is this cut off point now I wonder with all the IC range changes etc?

I would imagine Str based, but with those delicious cores in ranger granted such crit range and multiplier goodness, how much can we even splash anymore to get a high str score? Just thinking off the top of my head, it doesn't look like it's possible for a ranger to pull ahead with Sinew anymore. Which is a shame, I've had a good run with it a long time ago. But maybe I'm wrong...

unbongwah

03-14-2016, 10:01 PM

Unwavering Ardency's advantage isn't trivial, but it is static. Bow of Sinew's advantage scales. The more damage you do, the better off you are with Bow of Sinew. However, Unwavering Ardency's static advantage is big enough that you need to do a lot of damage before Bow of Sinew can catch up.
My back-of-envelope math is that UA is +18 avg dmg per shot over BoS (presuming 95% hit chance, 0% fortification, 0 Ranged Power, and fire vulnerability). So given that BoS's crit profile is +6% DPS, you'd need an avg dmg mod of at least 18 / 0.06 = 300 before BoS did more DPS (more or less). I don't know too many heroic builds who hit that high... :eek:

EllisDee37

03-15-2016, 01:29 AM

My back-of-envelope math is that UA is +18 avg dmg per shot over BoS (presuming 95% hit chance, 0% fortification, 0 Ranged Power, and fire vulnerability). So given that BoS's crit profile is +6% DPS, you'd need an avg dmg mod of at least 18 / 0.06 = 300 before BoS did more DPS (more or less). I don't know too many heroic builds who hit that high... :eek:My back of the napkin shows roughly half that, but 150 per shot is still a pipe dream for heroics, so yeah.

I'd still grab a Bow of Sinew in addition to Unwavering Ardency just to have as a DR-breaker in the rare cases you need to break both metal and alignment types at once.

EllisDee37

03-15-2016, 03:34 AM

Just for curiosity's sake, running numbers for a level 18 dps build:

31 AA (shadow arrows, which also makes ardency a +5 weapon)
41 DWS (lots of tier 5 goodness)

Figure +10 damage vs favored enemies (4 feats, +2 from enhancements)

Both
+6 deadly
+14 from dex: 20 base +4 levelups +6 item +2 ship +4 enhancements +2 1750 favor tome = 38
+5 Heavy Draw (DWS tier 5)
= +25 damage bonus, +35 vs favored enemies

+12 seeker (+8 item +4 ship buffs)
+0.25[W] (ship buffs)
+1[W] Point Blank Shot

Ardency
+5 (enhancement) + 3.25[1d12]=20.75 +25 damage bonus = 50.75 base damage, 60.75 vs favored enemies
34x + 19*3.5 (flaming) + 5*11 (burst) + 20*12 (seeker) =
34x + 66.5 + 55 + 240 =
(34x + 361.5) / 20 =
1.7x + 18.075 base per arrow

Sinew
+5 (enhancement) +2.25[1d8]=9.75 +25 damage bonus = 39.75 base damage, 49.75 vs favored enemies
36x + 22*12 (seeker) =
(36x + 264) / 20 =
1.8x + 13.2 base per arrow

Plugging in the above numbers:

Regular: Sinew: 84.75 base per arrow, Ardency: 104.35; Ardency = +23% better than Sinew
Favored: Sinew: 102.75 base per arrow, Ardency: 121.35; Ardency = +18% better than Sinew

Let's give Sinew its best possible scenario: running around in Vale of Twilight fighting fire-immune favored enemies:

Sinew: 102.75 base per arrow
Ardency: 115.275 base per arrow; Ardency = +12% better than Sinew

Net result: For a level 18 archer, Ardency is between 10% and 25% better in all scenarios. The more damage you do, the lower the advantage, but it's always at least double digits.