Big Bears

[HastyPudding]

I've been having a strange craving, lately, to make a druid bear tank. I've seen it done only a handful of times, and it always made me really want to try it, but never got around to it. Has anyone tried this and made a successful build? By successful I don't mean top DPS with the best gear available, I mean actually decent and adds meaningful DPS/utility to a party. Yes, I know bear form isn't exactly superior in any way to, say, a barbarian, or fighter build, or some wolf build, but it's more about trying new things, and right now, trying a bear druid sounds fun. I've tried looking this up on the forums and there's actually very little information on the subject of bears; or, information that's recent and relevant, anyway.

The character I'm thinking about doing this on is an 8th life fighter (4 fighter, 3 paladin, 1 cleric; yes I know 4 fighter does nothing but I like fighters). He's spent 7/8 lives as a sword and board, so he has plenty of tanky gear. The paladin and fighter lives would be useful to any melee build, and he has 3 bladeforged and 3 PDK lives for the fortification and PRR passives. He hasn't really done any real epic past life farming, but if bear druid is fun I could easily see myself doing some martial and primal past lives.

So...a few questions I have to those more experienced with melee druids.

1. I don't 100% understand the whole melee situation with animal forms. Your weapons are basically replaced with the natural weapons if your form, that much I know. Reading up on the subject in the wiki doesn't completely explain it. So, if you were using a dire bear form, your base damage becomes 1d12 and deals slashing/bludgeoning damage, meaning whatever weapon you have equipped is completely irrelevant except for the added effects like flaming, vorpal, spellpower, and such? Deadly weapons works? Are there any specific weapons that really work well with animal forms?

2. To pure or not to pure? I love pure classes, and always make them work, no matter what. I don't want to splash into monk, for sure, because I don't want to be restricted to outfits and robes (that's very anti-tanking until they decide to fix monks and the whole prr/mrr situation). Probably the most I would splash would be maybe 2 barbarian or 2 fighter, or 1 fighter/1 fvs or something along those lines. As always, I prefer to remain pure, and the nature's warrior capstone seems pretty decent, but I'm open to reasonable suggestions. I've heard a lot about people doing melee druid lives and making utterly horrific multiclass options that basically made the character unplayable. I assume feats are pretty simple with the natural fighting feats, IC bludgeoning/slashing, and things like that (do cleaves work in animal form?).

3. Race seems rather confusing, here, since apparently a lot of the racial bonuses mean nothing because you're no longer considered humanoid but a beast/magical beast/elemental in the wild shapes (with the appropriate racial abilities). So I have two questions: the first one is, which race would best fit a bear form druid? I don't own half-orcs because I have no desire to make a barbarian and the whole brute thing doesn't appeal to me. I don't own half-elves, either: I get along fine with either an elf or a human. The first race that came to mind was PDK, but that would require a +1 LR heart to get rid of the fighter level if I decided to go pure. That leaves the only viable alternatives as dwarf or human with a nod to warforged. The 2nd question feeds off the first and is simply cosmetic: which race has the biggest bear form? Being a tiny halfling bear sounds silly. :P

4. What destiny works? I would assume either sentinel (high HP and defenses, etc), fury (high damage, lots of con and str bonuses), or dreadnought (the whole blitz thing and tactics). Being in a non-human form, I'm not 100% sure what abilities work with animal forms and what doesn't.

So yeah, that's that.

[hillbob1]

(hi, this is my first reply on any thread), I am doing a dwarf con based bear that uses axes w/trow your weight around. cleaves do work with bear but i'm not sure about racial traits. i got to lvl 8 so far and i'm liking it. choice of armor is a bit annoying as you can't wear metal but dragon scale heavy armor from Giant Hold will do fine but you will need H Armor feat. the health is great and the spells can be a good replacement for cleaves if you want more feats. the bear size is a bit small but well its not about size that counts its how well you use it :o . i have toyed with the idea of adding 4 lvl's of fighter for the stance but not yet tried it.

[unbongwah]

As always, start with this thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/455517-Melee-druid-what-is-working-with-it

2. To pure or not to pure? I love pure classes, and always make them work, no matter what. I don't want to splash into monk, for sure, because I don't want to be restricted to outfits and robes (that's very anti-tanking until they decide to fix monks and the whole prr/mrr situation). Probably the most I would splash would be maybe 2 barbarian or 2 fighter, or 1 fighter/1 fvs or something along those lines. As always, I prefer to remain pure, and the nature's warrior capstone seems pretty decent, but I'm open to reasonable suggestions.
Do you want effective melee DPS; or do you want a pure druid? Because I can pretty much guarantee you're not going to get both. :(

The reason you see so many multiclassed monstrosities is Nature's Warrior PrE is relatively weak and higher-level druid spells do little for your melee DPS. In particular, the T5s and higher-lvl NW cores don't add as much DPS as the better MC synergies. Even if you deliberately avoided exploiting the TWF bugs, you'll still gain more DPS for a heavy MC. Furthermore, animal-form builds are feat-intensive; MCing with ftr and/or monk helps out here.

So I have two questions: the first one is, which race would best fit a bear form druid?
The same one for 99% of builds which aren't robots: human. :rolleyes:

(hi, this is my first reply on any thread), I am doing a dwarf con based bear that uses axes w/trow your weight around.
TYWA doesn't work in animal forms. I don't think the dwarf racial weapon bonuses do, either, but not 100% certain of that.

[FranOhmsford]

TYWA doesn't work in animal forms. I don't think the dwarf racial weapon bonuses do, either, but not 100% certain of that.

Yet the guy who's actually playing that build thinks it does?

This is a REAL Problem with DDO!

Half the time descriptions are broken or just plain wrong and even when they're right in their own limited way there's no way the Devs can fit in everything to 3 lines!

How's the newbie trying out a Dwarven Bear to know that TYWA "supposedly" doesn't work in Animal Form? It doesn't actually say it doesn't in the description.

[HastyPudding]

As always, start with this thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/455517-Melee-druid-what-is-working-with-it

Do you want effective melee DPS; or do you want a pure druid? Because I can pretty much guarantee you're not going to get both. :(

The reason you see so many multiclassed monstrosities is Nature's Warrior PrE is relatively weak and higher-level druid spells do little for your melee DPS. In particular, the T5s and higher-lvl NW cores don't add as much DPS as the better MC synergies. Even if you deliberately avoided exploiting the TWF bugs, you'll still gain more DPS for a heavy MC. Furthermore, animal-form builds are feat-intensive; MCing with ftr and/or monk helps out here.

The same one for 99% of builds which aren't robots: human. :rolleyes:

TYWA doesn't work in animal forms. I don't think the dwarf racial weapon bonuses do, either, but not 100% certain of that.

Hmm disheartening. I'm not sure how the pure druid bear I've partied with several times has such decent DPS. I'll have to track them down and ask, I guess.

As far as feats go, what's the typical spread? Do you pick up both IC: slashing and IC: bludgeoning due to using both damage types?

[unbongwah]

Do you pick up both IC: slashing and IC: bludgeoning due to using both damage types?
No: you take IC:Blunt, because animal forms are considered unarmed.

[HastyPudding]

No: you take IC:Blunt, because animal forms are considered unarmed.

Hmm didn't think it did.


Well, I've decided on 16 druid/4 fighter PDK. With this I'll gain access to heavy armor for dragonscale while leveling, some weapon proficiency for variety, stalwart defender defensive bonuses, and 3 extra feats (probably spent on weapon specialization bludgeoning).

[Enoach]

I actually disagree about high level spells not being a contribution to Melee damage. The most obvious example is earthquake. Bear form also has a few other spells that help with dealing with Trash while you concentrate your DPS on the Boss. The trick is balancing Strength/Constitution and Wisdom.

I did a Pure Druid Wolf build and I had a lot of fun. The trick for these types of builds is to examine all the abilities you have available. Some people are turned off by requiring lots of buffs or need to break melee to cast spells that will improve your performance or reduce your incoming damage. The Pure Melee Druid is one of those types.

Have fun, sounds like the 16/4 build will get you where you want to go.

[HastyPudding]

I actually disagree about high level spells not being a contribution to Melee damage. The most obvious example is earthquake. Bear form also has a few other spells that help with dealing with Trash while you concentrate your DPS on the Boss. The trick is balancing Strength/Constitution and Wisdom.

I did a Pure Druid Wolf build and I had a lot of fun. The trick for these types of builds is to examine all the abilities you have available. Some people are turned off by requiring lots of buffs or need to break melee to cast spells that will improve your performance or reduce your incoming damage. The Pure Melee Druid is one of those types.

Have fun, sounds like the 16/4 build will get you where you want to go.

I wasn't going to bother with high wisdom/evocation, since I already have a pure caster druid for that. Even still, I prefer a caster druid for the earthquake usage, mostly due to the good synergy with water elemental form's massive amounts of debuffs. Plus, having to juggle three stats, one of them for your melee DPS and another for DC casting, is a chore in and of itself: DC casting is difficult enough with only maximizing one stat, let alone three.

I'm wondering on feats, though. Would cleave/great cleave be worth it, or should I stick to getting 3 'natural fighting' feats?

[Khatzhas]

Bear form Druids aren't popular because there is no real need of tanks in content, and the bear attack animation is extremely slow, leading to poor damage.

Armour and shields can be an issue as well.

In my Bear Druid, I picked up both Cleave and Great Cleave, with the intention of using them and the Druid special attacks instead of the slow autoattack routine. It seems to work quite well, although whether that will hold for epics, I don't know. You will also want Imp. Crit: Bludgeoning, and ideally, natural fighting and/or shield fighting feats.

Regarding stats, bear (Heh!) in mind that the saving throws vs your animal form attacks are set by your Wisdom.

[unbongwah]

The biggest drawback to bear vs wolf builds is their slow atk speed; as with tree builds, the easiest work-around is to spam Cleave atks, which aren't affected by atk speed bonuses or penalties. So: Cleave + GC are must-haves, IMO; if you can add Supreme Cleave, Eldritch Cleave, and/or Whirlwind Atk, so much the better. Alpha Strike is sorta blah, IMO, due to the 12-sec CD, but if you don't have access to better T5s, you should definitely take it.

This was the least bad bear build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454311-Request-Bear-Tank-build?p=5511371&viewfull=1#post5511371) I could come up with. It's also the least exploit-y, i.e., no TWF feats and no Tempest shenanigans.

I've played pure wolf druids (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454803-New-Player-needs-Spec-(which-is-actually-new-player-viable)?p=5519865&viewfull=1#post5519865) before: the important thing to remember is you're not a "real" melee DPS build, you're more like a battle cleric; the melee is there to complement your spellcasting, not replace it.

[HastyPudding]

Bear form Druids aren't popular because there is no real need of tanks in content, and the bear attack animation is extremely slow, leading to poor damage.

Armour and shields can be an issue as well.

In my Bear Druid, I picked up both Cleave and Great Cleave, with the intention of using them and the Druid special attacks instead of the slow autoattack routine. It seems to work quite well, although whether that will hold for epics, I don't know. You will also want Imp. Crit: Bludgeoning, and ideally, natural fighting and/or shield fighting feats.

Regarding stats, bear (Heh!) in mind that the saving throws vs your animal form attacks are set by your Wisdom.

Well, yes, I'm not going to dump wisdom, but I'm not going to super-focus on it like a spellcaster. I'd say it's more like a paladin does charisma; it's important, but not center stage compared to strength.

I'll probably get the cleaves, but I'm definitely going for the two shield fighting feats, IC: bludgeoning, and natural fighting at the very least. Throwing in quicken would be nice, too, since nobody likes to be interrupted while healing.

EDIT: I think it's good to point out I'm not going for optimal DPS (probably a given, considering it's a bear). This is for fun, because I'm a little sick of the same old/same old melee.

[unbongwah]

Oh, BTW, I haven't tested the new-n-improved Intim on a druid yet, but it's almost certainly a lot easier to use now. One quirk of druids was that even if you had a shield equipped, you didn't get the shield bonus to Intim duration while in animal forms. Thankfully, that's no longer an issue now, since there is no shield bonus to Intim anymore.

[HastyPudding]

Oh, BTW, I haven't tested the new-n-improved Intim on a druid yet, but it's almost certainly a lot easier to use now. One quirk of druids was that even if you had a shield equipped, you didn't get the shield bonus to Intim duration while in animal forms. Thankfully, that's no longer an issue now, since there is no shield bonus to Intim anymore.

Druids get a spell to increase threat generation in bear form, too, no?

[unbongwah]

Yes: I was never entirely convinced Roar (http://ddowiki.com/page/Roar_%28spell%29) worked right, though, but I gave up on my bear builds a long time ago. :(

[pthr33]

The biggest drawback to bear vs wolf builds is their slow atk speed; as with tree builds, the easiest work-around is to spam Cleave atks, which aren't affected by atk speed bonuses or penalties. So: Cleave + GC are must-haves, IMO; if you can add Supreme Cleave, Eldritch Cleave, and/or Whirlwind Atk, so much the better. Alpha Strike is sorta blah, IMO, due to the 12-sec CD, but if you don't have access to better T5s, you should definitely take it.

This was the least bad bear build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454311-Request-Bear-Tank-build?p=5511371&viewfull=1#post5511371) I could come up with. It's also the least exploit-y, i.e., no TWF feats and no Tempest shenanigans.



currently running this now, at level 25 with black scale armor on its second life as a bear build. first was 16 druid 4 fighter dwarf but didnt use TYWA, instead maxed str and shield feats.

planning on taking this build to 30 and seeing what it can do. the cleaves help with attack speed but its still a slow beast. although its lots of fun and running in US destiny its hard to take down but the dps lacks. otherwise i run in LD and use a battleaxe for the headmans chop stuff

[HastyPudding]

Well, I TR'd today and went and did my usual von1-4 on elite (good for a trial run to see what your character does when starting on an iconic). I noticed a few things:

1. DPS is not as bad as I thought it was, although the slow attack speed is definitely noticeable. I'm not sure if that's 100% WAI to be that slow. Your auto-attack isn't anything special, but your cleave combo is pretty damaging; cleave, great cleave, alpha strike, and tremor is pretty deadly, especially when alpha strike crits/doublestrikes. Maul and Shred critical hits are also your secondary sources of damage. Hide of the Fallen is also a good source of damage. The fun factor of being a massive bear rampaging through mobs and stomping repeatedly makes up for the lack of auto-attack DPS.

2. Using a shield, there is some small synergy with the vanguard tree. I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure you can utilize the damage line on the left side of the tree to gain attack/damage in animal form. I checked the first tier and it gave me the attack bonus, so one can assume it also gives the damage bonus. Since it's not tied directly to the shield, so long as you have a shield equipped you should get the bonuses. The active abilities like stunning shield or shield charge don't work in animal form. I would hypothesize that taking more fighter levels would allow you to utilize the combat style attack speed bonuses in the level 6 and 12 cores.

3. Survivability is very high, as I expected; druid healing coupled with the high PRR/MRR of a bear/stalwart defender is rather nice. I managed to find a nice wooden large shield with PRR/MRR on it that fits fine until I find a good named one.

4. I'm a bit at a loss of what weapons to use, so I just strapped on my old twinblade because it has a metoric star ruby and a kinetic star ruby inside it, which helps with the aoe damage.

[unbongwah]

WoW (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Wall_of_Wood) is the obvious choice: heal amp, Devotion, Implement bonus.

[HastyPudding]

WoW (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Wall_of_Wood) is the obvious choice: heal amp, Devotion, Implement bonus.

Unfortunately, farming the spell storing ring or 30 phlogistons is easier than finding that.

I rather like http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Shield_of_Tireless_Aid

[unbongwah]

The HN version will usually drop as an end-chain reward.

[HastyPudding]

Can't stand it. Bear druid was alright in heroics, where mobs didn't have a ton of HP and you could cleave your way through them. Once you hit epics...it's pretty terrible. About the best thing you can do is use a few good knockdowns and hold aggro as well as any vanguard/defender due to your good threat generation and intimidate. Survivability: great. DPS: you're not a healbot cleric swinging around a mace, but you're darn close to it.

LRing tonight into some form of wolf build.

[unbongwah]

I hate to say "I told you so," buuuut...

I posted a pure wolf druid build here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/427398-Gingerspyce-s-caster-healer-quasi-tank-build?p=5774904&viewfull=1#post5774904); although the iteration I'm currently using went TWF instead of SWF, that's more stat-intensive.

[HastyPudding]

I hate to say "I told you so," buuuut...

I posted a pure wolf druid build here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/427398-Gingerspyce-s-caster-healer-quasi-tank-build?p=5774904&viewfull=1#post5774904); although the iteration I'm currently using went TWF instead of SWF, that's more stat-intensive.

I went for TWF+Shield Mastery, I get offhand attacks wit the attack speed and still keep the tankiness I wanted (along with the many doublestrike benefits from shields).

[unbongwah]

That works too. :) I think my current build is TWF x3, Precision, IC:Blunt, Max, Quik, SF:Evo (+Magister Twist), Overwhelming Crit. This char predates U29 and I plan to HTR soon(ish), though, so it's kinda moot now...