+20 Hearts Should be free and have unlimited use.

[Brac]

Many people feel that DDO's character creation is one of it's strongest features and I would agree with this. At the same time I think this great feature is also one of it's biggest weaknesses.

The beauty of DDO's character creation is the nearly unlimited options and the ability to create a powerful character that fits your play style. The problem is that due to these many options characters can be "broken" to the point of making a character unplayable. Very few other MMOs are like this and players coming from other MMO's often do not realize this when starting DDO.

I recently had a discussion with someone that tried DDO but quit with a very poor outlook on the game primarily caused by character creation. We will refer to this person as Bob going forward. Bob had played 5 or 6 other MMOs before trying DDO. In the other games he played character creation was very linear. You chose one of the trinity (DPS, Tank, Healer for those not familiar) and as you leveled up you were given a few options once in a while. Character progression generally meant adding an ability and increasing your base stats.

When Bob joined DDO he decided he wanted to tank so he chose a Paladin (this was pre-pass btw). He started on one of the Paladin paths. After about 5 levels Bob soon realized that tanking in DDO was different. Not only that but players in groups had told him Paladins were pretty bad (pre-pass remember). He was also frustrated because he kept dying and seem to be the only one. When he took his next level he was tired of dying and it seemed the groups always had plenty of DPS but no healer. Bob decided to add some cleric levels to help. After adding 3 cleric levels Bob was still dying, wasn't able to tank, and his healing was not what he imagined it would be. Bob then found a light repeater in a chest and had his answer, he would change to ranged DPS! It turned out when he equipped it that he was not proficient. He asked in game and players eventually led him to Fred and the concept of a feat exchange. Bob changed out a feet and was now ready to run his character as ranged DPS. The first couple quests he ran he was doing very little damage and didn't feel he was contributing to the group. He then decided next time he leveled up to fix this, he added a ranger level to go with his new ranged DPS concept. He did this until he was at 5 Paladin/ 3 Cleric/ 3 Ranger. At level 11 Bob realized that none of what he did was working. It was also to the point that other players in group were asking him what he was trying to do and telling him his build was bad. He tried soloing quests but he wasn't powerful enough. So Bob starting asking around in game of what to do to fix his character. The response he received was that he either needed start a new character or level to 20 and TR. Which, given the state of Bob's character, I agree with. But Bob didn't do either of those things, instead he quit the game and went on to play something else. Although the name was changed, this was a real discussion I had. I asked the person why he quit instead of re-rolling or just leveling to 20? His response was that he had already spent a month getting to level 11 and didn't want to start over. This discussion occurred a couple years after Bob had tried DDO and I told him that if he wanted to try again I could get him to level 11 in a weekend and could help with his build so it was powerful. His response was "no thanks, I just don't think it is the game for me". Unfortunately Bob did not have fond memories of DDO and had no interest of reliving that misery. And it was primarily caused by DDOs open character creation. I feel if the option was available to this person to just rebuild the character until they found one that worked for them DDO would of had a chance to add another long term player. Bob still plays MMOs today, just not DDO.

With update 29 and the release of Shroud I did something I had not done for years, played an alt. When the level cap was 20 and before completionist was a thing I always had a few characters in the stable. They were role based. I had a caster, a trapper, a melee DPS, and a healer. Post Motu and when my playing time was reduced I decided to focus on one character. I didn't have the time to optimize and gear multiple any more. I was also working towards completionist and epic completionist so it made more sense to only play one. With the release of Legendary Shroud it was time to go back into the stable. I wanted to build a T3 item as soon as possible so I needed more characters to collect ingredients. The characters in the stable were not completely abandoned with Motu. I had a few level 28s that all had at least one past life and at least one epic destiny maxed. The problem I had was that every build had been invalidated by the class updates. These characters no longer had synergy in their builds and were grossly underpowered in the current DDO game. Luckily I had +20 hearts of wood from the time when everyone got one for free. I really have no interest in playing or gearing these characters but they did need to be good enough to run LH Shroud and contribute. I did not intend to pike for my ingredients. I rebuilt them for the current game with the requirement that they were not gear intensive and could contribute. I ended up with a Rogue Mechanic, a Warlock, and a Tree build. These characters are all able to contribute and survive in LH Shroud.

What has occurred to me though is that after I get enough ingredients or lose interest in running 4 characters through Shroud every 3 days these characters will go back into the stable. And if a similar situation presents itself in the future I will not have the option of fixing my stable characters. Without the +20s it would have been a huge time commitment to make those characters viable. And since they only serve one purpose, it is unlikely I would have done this. I then question why is it like this? I understand that the game changes and classes can be updated or modified, but shouldn't the +20 heart option always be available then?

With the release of new content comes the return of old players. It is always an exciting time because we have something new to do and we get to run with familiar friends from the past. As an existing player you always hold out hope that the returning players recapture the spark and stay with the game this time. U29 was no exception and since it was Shroud I saw a larger return from older players then you normally see with other updates. What many returning players quickly find out is that the game has left them behind. Which is expected, if you leave for a year you expect things to change while you are gone. The difference with DDO when compared to other games is that you can come back and learn that you character has been completely invalidated. I had friends come back excited to run their monks through the new Shroud. The first question they asked was "OK, what do I need to change to be decent in the new quest?" The answer was everything. I am not going to dissect every class but I am sure most people can come up with a character example that was fine 1 or 2 years ago and now should not even be played. Unfortunately not every returning player has a +20 heart in their inventory to update their characters. So the option then becomes either play an underpowered character and pike or TR/ITR. When a player returns to the game because they want to run new content, realizing that they need to TR/ITR to contribute does not excite them. Instead they generally run the quest a couple times, get frustrated with their underpowered character, and leave again.

DDO does have a solution to all of these problems. The solution would be to make +20 hearts always available for free and have no limitation on their use. This helps new players fix build mistakes at any point during the leveling process. This would allow returning players to update their characters when they return so they would be more likely to contribute to the group and have more fun. It would allow any type of feat, enhancement, destiny, item, spell, etc. adjustments to occur and if they break a build then the player has the option to easily fix it or change into something they would prefer more.

I see little ability to abuse +20 hearts. And the abuses I can think of would benefit the game and not hurt it. Completionist is no longer an achievement that only a handful of people get. It is becoming more common. But what about that person that loves playing Barbarians? He would like to get completionist but doesn't want to play anything besides a Barbarian. He could abuse the +20 hearts by changing his class split at level 20 right before he TR's back into a Barbarian for another 20 heroic levels. But is that a bad thing? Completionist started as a joke and was added due to player requests. It wasn't meant to be some baseline to prove someone knows how to play every class.

The next area of abuse would be people experimenting with strange builds more often knowing they can fix them if they don't work out. Again, not a bad thing. Lammania doesn't need to own the rights to build experimentation.

And finally the FOTM complaint. If everyone could use +20 hearts at anytime they would make their characters into the most powerful FOTM build. Again, why is this bad? Is being underpowered supposed to be a punishment for casual players? The reason I phrase it this way is because the people that would be considered power gamers already change their character to the powerful builds when they are released. Look at the people you would consider power gamers. How many of them are now playing Tempest and how many are still trying to get their pure Fighter to finally work out?

The last reason I can think of that +20 hearts being available could possibly be bad is from a revenue stand point. It could be said that players wanting to fix their characters can buy multiple +x hearts through the DDO store. My response to this is that acquiring a new player or getting an old one to return for another year or two is more profitable then people that are buying hearts from the store. And if revenue really is a factor, make it a VIP perk.

I say let +20 hearts flow freely for everyone and let no one be stuck under the weight of an underpowered build!




tl; dr


Man I would read it, if it wasn't so hard to follow for my eyes.


TL;DR agreed

Just from the subject, sounds like someone's been tossing back some sauce.


The basis is that DDOs open character development and constant class changes cause some characters to be unplayable. This is most often experienced by new players or returning players who have been gone for long periods of time. If +20 hearts were available new players could fix there builds easily and would be more likely to become long term players. Returning players would be able to update their builds and are more likely to stick around longer with a decent character instead of being stuck with an underpowered one.

[bartharok]

Ugh... No way.

[Vorthian]

$ for Turbine allows the game to continue. That said, perhaps free respec the first thirty days after an account is created and after the return of a player who has not logged on for a year would have some merit.

[temp42]

I think unlimited hearts is not the right path here. The problem there becomes everyone swapping to the current top build constantly. Too many other MMOs follow this trend, and unique non-standard characters are a dying breed there. There should be some feeling of permanence to character choices.

That said, some way to get such hearts, especially after long downtime isnt a bad thing, for all the reasons you describe. But something like a way to get a +20 heart for free, that has like a 6 month or a year cooldown, and that cooldown resets when they Reincarnate. This would give that a player that has honestly not played in ages a way to come up to speed, but would be hard if not impossible for an active character to get ahold of. (these would need to be character bound of course).

I know I have a handful of those birthday cakes laying around on various older characters, but I dont think they are still doing that. But a mechanic like that where you get a free thing once a year may be fun, and putting a character bound +20 heart on there wouldnt be bad either.

[dunklezhan]

The answer is solid path builds, and better in game tuition of new players about how the system works. Not free respecs.

Whilst obviously we do want the game to be accessible to more players, the market needs the occasional game like this because everything else is so simple. If a complex game is not for Bob, then so be it, and it doesn't sound like it ultimately would have been. I think that instead the game needs to be easy to dive into (solid paths and better in game tuition, especially since its not like we can tell folk to go read up on the d20SRD as a good grounding any more), and very hard to master. I still haven't mastered it, I've just learned to build a character that can mostly survive & noticeably contribute.

I do think a way to undo mistakes should be easier. We have Fred for feats, and you can use him with entirely in game resources. Another type of reward from Fred with similar in game ingredients that can grant different LR capabilities would, I think be welcome. Whether that be as simple as hearts, or more complex (skill respecs, level respecs etc) I would leave to the design folks.

[Grailhawk]

The new player issue needs to be solved by updating character creation and the pre build path options. The paths need to be good and need to not try an be all inclusive, One pre-build character per class is all that is needed those options need to be good. If Bob had been on a properly built paladin even back in the day he would have at least felt like he was contributing and would have been a lot better of then as a 5/3/3 build he ended up as.

Sorry but I don't agree you should just be able to take a character off the shelf and respec it for free every time the game updates, your shroud farms had been neglected for years you shouldn't be able to push a button an make them viable not for free at least.

Adding +20 Harts to the store permanently at a reasonable price (say $10) and I can get behind that. I can also get behind some method to give each new characters (as in created after x date when this gos live) a path to a free +20 hart. But not really a fan of +20 harts being free and multi use.

[Brac]

tl; dr


Man I would read it, if it wasn't so hard to follow for my eyes.


TL;DR agreed

Just from the subject, sounds like someone's been tossing back some sauce.


The basis is that DDOs open character development and constant class changes cause some characters to be unplayable. This is most often experienced by new players or returning players who have been gone for long periods of time. If +20 hearts were available new players could fix there builds easily and would be more likely to become long term players. Returning players would be able to update their builds and are more likely to stick around longer with a decent character instead of being stuck with an underpowered one.

[Grailhawk]

That said, some way to get such hearts, especially after long downtime isnt a bad thing, for all the reasons you describe. But something like a way to get a +20 heart for free, that has like a 6 month or a year cooldown, and that cooldown resets when they Reincarnate. This would give that a player that has honestly not played in ages a way to come up to speed, but would be hard if not impossible for an active character to get ahold of. (these would need to be character bound of course).

On a free +20 respec I don't think it should reset on reincarnation and I think it should have at least a 1 year timer.

I would perfer +20 Harts to be added to the store permanently at $10 each but a one per year respec would address all the issue the OP has brought up.

[Pnumbra]

+20 hearts for free is a bad business idea and robs the game of a valued asset that can be earned if implemented correctly. While I disagree with Brac's under-powered hypothesis, having +20 hearts incorporated into the game would be a good move. Say 50 heart seeds or more for one, or 1,000 CoV, or some other way in which in game items can be utilized.

[FranOhmsford]

OP - The biggest issue with your suggestion {and I notice you didn't include it} is the Iconic situation.

Free +20 Hearts would = a lot more people buying Morninglord I'd imagine but a lot less buying +1 Hearts!

[Qhualor]

As someone who will never have a heroic completionist because I don't want to play caster classes, I still say /not signed. Allow it to be free and I would just do barbarian lives to get the caster past lives. It never has made sense to me you can get a past life without actually playing that class.

[Qezuzu]

Have +20 heart be another option in 5k favor reward. As far as making full character resets more accessible/common/etc, this is about as much as I would support. Once per life, with a lot of work.

[walkin_dude]

I was going to type out a long, detailed reply. Then I lost interest in trying to figure out why three-year-old builds should be optimal.

My opinion is that your toons were probably fine (I'd guess better than any of mine, and I am able to have plenty of fun). You just listen to the stuff on the forums too much.

[Apollos713]

The new player issue needs to be solved by updating character creation and the pre build path options. The paths need to be good and need to not try an be all inclusive, One pre-build character per class is all that is needed those options need to be good. If Bob had been on a properly built paladin even back in the day he would have at least felt like he was contributing and would have been a lot better of then as a 5/3/3 build he ended up as.

Absolutely. When I started this game I leveled up the first two characters I created to about 12 before destroying them. The reason was that I went on the pre-built paths (like any new player would) and the paths sucked. The more I read on the forum or the wiki just showed me that I shouldn't have taken the paths.

[FranOhmsford]

Have +20 heart be another option in 5k favor reward. As far as making full character resets more accessible/common/etc, this is about as much as I would support. Once per life, with a lot of work.

God No!

It's bad enough the grind to get a +5 Tome!

That amount of Grind for what amounts to the ability to make a Morninglord without the useless Cleric level is INSANE!

Maybe add it to the 1750 Favour Reward? Or even 2500 {FavSoul - Would work DDO Lore Wise to make a Morninglord Soul :)}.

[knobaroo]

Strong resistance to a reasonable request.
DDo gives you a lot of rope as a new player to hang yourself. Some builds you won't even know your gimped till 12th lvl.
This game is old and the more accessible it is to new and returning players the better we are as a whole to keep these players.
Experimentation as a new player is incredibly interesting in this game. Learning by doing.
A VIP perk is an excellent idea. More money to keep our game alive and more flexibility, where is the down side?

[bartharok]

God No!

It's bad enough the grind to get a +5 Tome!

That amount of Grind for what amounts to the ability to make a Morninglord without the useless Cleric level is INSANE!

Maybe add it to the 1750 Favour Reward? Or even 2500 {FavSoul - Would work Lore Wise to make a Morninglord Soul :)}.

Umm.. no. If they give them in game it should be a grind, otverwise people could get one every tr.

[eris2323]

I'd support them being available full time in the store, or having them as a favor reward (but omg please not the 5000 mark), or both... but not free unlimited.

I'm on the TR train, but really don't want to play the sub-par broken boring (to me) classes; yes monks, I'm talking about you... so I may never get completionist, although I do have multiple caster lives because I do enjoy those...

And waiting for each class to get their 'update' could be years more of waiting....

[Grailhawk]

Have +20 heart be another option in 5k favor reward. As far as making full character resets more accessible/common/etc, this is about as much as I would support. Once per life, with a lot of work.

I kind of liked this idea then I thought about Bob in the example no way would such a new player be able to get to 5k favor to fix his mistakes. A +20 Heart option needs to be something that a new play can get to with out much effort but not something a vet can exploit for PL's or quicky character swaps.

A once per year per account free +20 heart would be the best solution IMO.

[RistoffDervish]

As someone who will never have a heroic completionist because I don't want to play caster classes, I still say /not signed. Allow it to be free and I would just do barbarian lives to get the caster past lives. It never has made sense to me you can get a past life without actually playing that class.

But you can still do this for money.

[walkin_dude]

Absolutely. When I started this game I leveled up the first two characters I created to about 12 before destroying them. The reason was that I went on the pre-built paths (like any new player would) and the paths sucked. The more I read on the forum or the wiki just showed me that I shouldn't have taken the paths.

One million percent agreed. I played my first guy to level 7 or 8 before departing from the character creation path. It took a lot to fix him once I started realizing that repair was possible. Weeks of feat swapping, all that. This was with the old enhancement system, of course.

I had managed to unlock Drow, so I made my first alt, made him a drow assassin rogue (still old enhancement system), and played him to cap. Then I went back to my level 9-ish main and played him to cap, too. :)

But those paths need some serious help, fo sho.

[FranOhmsford]

To anyone against this idea: are you also against "respeccing" enhancements or Epic Destinies for platinum? I would not mind a similar function of implementing Platinum this way. Maybe sell the Hearts of Wood for a million Platinum or something. While you're at it add some other high priced platinum items to make platinum serve more of a purpose.

The problem with plat is it's too easy for Epic Players to get - 30k per quest just in vendor trash!
While also being really hard to get for the newbies the OP's looking to help - By the time they get a million plat they'll have fixed or TRd the character already IF they don't just quit the instant someone tells them the cost!

[Kriogen]

The basis is that DDOs open character development and constant class changes cause some characters to be unplayable. This is most often experienced by new players or returning players who have been gone for long periods of time. If +20 hearts were available new players could fix there builds easily and would be more likely to become long term players. Returning players would be able to update their builds and are more likely to stick around longer with a decent character instead of being stuck with an underpowered one.
Agree.

But you don't need +20 heart as long as you didn't rolled some funky FoTM build. +1 to +5 would do just fine.

[FranOhmsford]

Umm.. no. If they give them in game it should be a grind, otverwise people could get one every tr.

There's grind and there's GRIND!

I know for a fact it's possible to TR without getting 2500 Favour {1750 maybe too easy which is why I suggested 2500} and an Iconic could TR without even getting 1750 {As soon as you hit 20 you can just run ENs to 30.}.

5k is Insane as it is for the single +5 tome we get for it {Who's going to do THAT Grind for a +20 Heart exactly?}.

[Grailhawk]

To OP: I think this is a good idea and I really see no downside except the small amount of TP not spent on them. However, anyone with $ to spend on hearts will surely spend it on something else in the store and keeping more players in the game and keeping them happy will eventually net more $ spent on Turbine.

To anyone against this idea: are you also against "respeccing" enhancements or Epic Destinies for platinum? I would not mind a similar function of implementing Platinum this way. Maybe sell the Hearts of Wood for a million Platinum or something. While you're at it add some other high priced platinum items to make platinum serve more of a purpose.

I'm not against the idea I'm against unlimited use, your character choices should have some permanence imo.

[RistoffDervish]

The problem with plat is it's too easy for Epic Players to get - 30k per quest just in vendor trash!
While also being really hard to get for the newbies the OP's looking to help - By the time they get a million plat they'll have fixed or TRd the character already IF they don't just quit the instant someone tells them the cost!

Yeah, I would have to agree. I thought about that a little more after posting.

Maybe giving new players a heart of wood to start with and somehow explaining its value and purpose so they don't throw it out like one of my new guild mates just did.

[FranOhmsford]

A once per year per account free +20 heart would be the best solution IMO.

A timer on it is a good idea but 1/year seems over the top and unnecessary to me.

Why not 1/3 months? We get updates at about that rate and a lot of people come back for updates wanting to get straight back into the game and play - Yes the Devs have given out free Hearts and Feat Swaps regularly when updating classes but it doesn't take much to invalidate some of these FotM Multi-Class builds that type of player likes so why not give them the option?

[FranOhmsford]

Yeah, I would have to agree. I thought about that a little more after posting.

Maybe giving new players a heart of wood to start with and somehow explaining its value and purpose so they don't throw it out like one of my new guild mates just did.

There's still a big push from vets for newbies to delete their first build and remake it BUT these days many of those newbies have bought expansions and maybe used the benefits of those expansions on said character.

I can easily see newbies deleting characters with the Heart by mistake just as quite a few have deleted characters with Panthers, Owlbears, Tomes etc.

[Qhualor]

But you can still do this for money.

Yep. There is a cost to it as it should be. For me, it's not worth the money and half the past lives would have no benefit for my melees anyway.

[Grailhawk]

A timer on it is a good idea but 1/year seems over the top and unnecessary to me.

Why not 1/3 months? We get updates at about that rate and a lot of people come back for updates wanting to get straight back into the game and play - Yes the Devs have given out free Hearts and Feat Swaps regularly when updating classes but it doesn't take much to invalidate some of these FotM Multi-Class builds that type of player likes so why not give them the option?

If you remove some of the grind for them they leave sooner.

The guys who are coming back at every update for a few weeks are the once we don't need to worry about they will come do there thing get what they want go away and then come back next update. Giving them a respec will just cause them to leave sooner, honestly.

The guys who need this option are those who left for a while year+ and are giving the game a second chance, giving them a free respect to help them catch up with the meta is cool. They guys who come back each update are up to date with the meta.

[FranOhmsford]

If you remove some of the grind for them they leave sooner.

The guys who are coming back at every update for a few weeks are the once we don't need to worry about they will come do there thing get what they want go away and then come back next update. Giving them a respec will just cause them to leave sooner, honestly.

The guys who need this option are those who left for a while year+ and are giving the game a second chance, giving them a free respect to help them catch up with the meta is cool. They guys who come back each update are up to date with the meta.

And what if someone comes back after say 10 months but has to wait 2 more to fix his character?

A Year is a long time and provides too big a chance to not help enough of the people you want to help.

Even 6 months may be too long a timer but at least it would be better.

Like you I don't want to see people using this every 3 days to blast through past life after past life but a 3 month timer would cover that problem and giving a little benefit to "those guys" as you put it means more chance of getting the benefit for the people you want to help.

[karatemack]

There are a few highly detailed and free character planners which help avoid a lot of pain.

There is the ddowiki.com and this forum which help offer some direction.

Iconic characters allow you to start at level 15 to "try out" builds with little actual investment.

TR is an option and it is painfully easy to cap a first life toon, even those which are horridly built.

Most of us made a toon we didn't like. We either re-rolled or TRd. It's a part of learning a new game.

[Brac]

Agree.

But you don't need +20 heart as long as you didn't rolled some funky FoTM build. +1 to +5 would do just fine.

Or some unique build. One of my characters was a Wizard 12/Artificer 6/Rogue 2. He had max trap skills and used a repeating xbow and wizard sla's for Shiradi procs. The build worked well when I made it a couple years ago. Now, it was terrible. My options were limited even with a +20 Heart due to three classes. I went with a Rogue Mechanic. With +1 or +5 heart I could not have made a LH Shroud viable character.

[Ghwyn]

I think +20 hearts being in the store all the time is a good idea. Also, the character planner should reflect the state of the game, and let people know what classes are the easiest at the time. But this game is not for everyone. It takes time to learn; its not a game to play for a few months, complete it, and move on to the next.

[Thar]

good analysis from a new player point of view.

A +20 could just cause issues with "free"changes for past life feats after doing an easy class to level like warlock.

that being said one free one for new accounts BTA would be a good tool to pull people into the game. but you could have the same problem if they rebuild into a broken build.

The best approach is to join the guild of the black dragons on sarlona (or another lesser guild) and we help you with what works (today).

[Chai]

I would be satisfied with a free one every 6 months per character. The game changes enough to justify it, but it doesn't need to be limitless or even overly frequent.

[Silverleafeon]

I think +20 hearts being in the store all the time is a good idea.

+1 I can support this idea.

As far as providing hearts free for newcomers, they will mess up their build with or without that heart.
Route em to DDO wiki, talk with them in game (I helped someone last night realize feature X would not fit with build Y, just by chatting with them.)
Until they learn, all the free hearts will only be wasted.

Remember the days when players deleted their toons at level cap because there was nothing more to do and they were out of character space?

Remember the days when heart did not exist, and if you misplaced ability scores or skill points the only fix was deletion?

Deleting a 7th level toon might sound terrible backtracking, but its a short piece of the whole path to 3rd life level cap with several ED maxed out.
Those dungeons need to be replayed anyway for learning experience.

Yeah, I'm sympathetic to newcomers, but "...its the struggle, not the triumph..."

[Silverleafeon]

Now, I read through everything, and noticed no one pointed out the super obvious. ..

+1 again Well, said, which is why rolling a new toon is probably the best option, maybe deleting their first toon to make room for the fifth version.

A free to play player would likely want to favor farm anyway, to buy packs.
So definitely time to mess up builds along the way.
This opens up more character slots (as premium etc)...

[Memnir]

Each Anniversary grant one +20 Heart per-account, bound to account.

[Hoglum]

I can finally play that dwarven bard/cleric/monk!! .


No you can't.

[Kylstrem]

As someone who will never have a heroic completionist because I don't want to play caster classes, I still say /not signed. Allow it to be free and I would just do barbarian lives to get the caster past lives. It never has made sense to me you can get a past life without actually playing that class.

Man, you can easily run a 1 fighter/4 paladin/15 <caster class> and play it as a barbarian all the way to 20... just get a carnifex and you are set.

[Anoregon]

The basis is that DDOs open character development and constant class changes cause some characters to be unplayable. This is most often experienced by new players or returning players who have been gone for long periods of time. If +20 hearts were available new players could fix there builds easily and would be more likely to become long term players. Returning players would be able to update their builds and are more likely to stick around longer with a decent character instead of being stuck with an underpowered one.

I don't know if perpetually free/available +20 hearts is the right answer, but I do agree with the general premise. I am absolutely of the opinion that no MMO (or online ARPG or whatever) should use the need/desire to respec a character as a source of micro-transaction income. Players of any stripe, new, old, hardcore, casual, should not face the perennial fear of ending up with a total waste of a character with no recourse other than to chalk it up to a loss or pay real money to fix it. It is an entirely unnecessary, artificial barrier that does more harm than good, and actively discourages people from simply picking up the game and playing it.

Another game I play, Marvel Heroes, used to have respecs limited to consumables that you either rarely looted or had to buy. They wisely changed their policy last year and now you can respec freely.

[bartharok]

Each Anniversary grant one +20 Heart per-account, bound to account.

Not bad.

[count_spicoli]

Absolutely not. Do like the rest of us did and get out there and stink up a few lives then get better. Practice makes perfect. Every body wants a free pass these days.

[Cordovan]

Please avoid the TL;DR-style posting. It's rude.

[Anoregon]

Absolutely not. Do like the rest of us did and get out there and stink up a few lives then get better. Practice makes perfect. Every body wants a free pass these days.

Sorry, but "I did things the hard way so it should never get better" has never been a compelling argument.

[RobbinB]

Why are we talking about +20 hearts of wood at all?

You are vastly understating the problem. Even a +20 doesn't help you with alignment and race, correct?

Why isn't there simply a reincarnate to present level, do whatever the *^@$ I want option? Why all these sub-versions giving you part (but not all) of the package. If I have a level 16 halforc bard that is no longer fun to play, and I decide that fun for me might be a Halfling paladin then why shouldn't I be able to make this conversion in very short order?

What the costs of such an option should be might make a good debate; that such an option should be available is in my mind undebatable, as I have never heard any convincing reason why it shouldn't be (though I've been asking for one for years).

[Thar]

Please avoid the TL;DR-style posting. It's rude.

what is TL;DR??

[Anoregon]

Why are we talking about +20 hearts of wood at all?

You are vastly understating the problem. Even a +20 doesn't help you with alignment and race, correct?

Why isn't there simply a reincarnate to present level, do whatever the *^@$ I want option? Why all these sub-versions giving you part (but not all) of the package. If I have a level 16 halforc bard that is no longer fun to play, and I decide that fun for me might be a Halfling paladin then why shouldn't I be able to make this conversion in very short order?

What the costs of such an option should be might make a good debate; that such an option should be available is in my mind undebatable, as I have never heard any convincing reason why it shouldn't be (though I've been asking for one for years).


So basically a hybrid TR and LR. You don't get any of the bonuses of a TR (past life, 34/36 point upgrade) or start over at one, but are essentially remaking every part of your character and staying at your current level. Could work, I suppose.

[Pnumbra]

Seems most here agree that the +20 heart should have more of a presence in the game. How that should look is debatable. Most seem to say, it should not be free, and again, I agree. They could simply put the heart on in-store rotation, something that happens once per quarter. That would solve all issues.

[Brac]

I like the idea of those that +20 hearts should be given out on some type of time interval. Or maybe following any update.

I am not hardcore dead set on the idea that they need to be free or extremely plentiful. I just like to at least propose some type of solution when I point out something I perceive as a problem.

I like that the classes that have been updated are more or less in a very good place with each other power wise. What I do not like is that older built characters or new players without the game knowledge can end up with very weak characters due to these changes. I do not want the changes to stop, I just don't want people to have characters that need to TR before they can be viable.

[Memnir]

what is TL;DR??Know Your Meme (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/tldr)

[Brac]

what is TL;DR??

Memnir answered better then me, lol.

[Silverleafeon]

Each Anniversary grant one +20 Heart per-account, bound to account.

I don't see this as directly helping complete newcomers, but it does provide overall player relief to those who understand the complexities of changing builds.

Most newcomers might waste such particularly with the limitations of +20 hearts which overall the player base agreed that they would like to have the +20 hearts in store regardless of limitations instead of not having them at all in live game.

Since one could earn in game true hearts most players still have a free choice to respect their toon while gaining useful past lives.

But yes I could support this as an anniversary gift if anniversary in store gift were secured against duplication fraud in the future as much as possible.

[Qhualor]

Man, you can easily run a 1 fighter/4 paladin/15 <caster class> and play it as a barbarian all the way to 20... just get a carnifex and you are set.

I did something similar with melee warlock. I did 3 lives X 4 characters and it was mostly gritting my teeth. Cap couldn't come fast enough. To me, doing all those caster lives when most or all would have zero to little benefit, I would be wasting hours and hours and lots of TP on xp pots just to get the completionist benefit. Just not worth it to me.

[knobaroo]

Absolutely not. Do like the rest of us did and get out there and stink up a few lives then get better. Practice makes perfect. Every body wants a free pass these days.

It's more about lowering the learning curve so not to punish a new player. Encourage him or her to make there own mistakes, understand why they are mistakes, and make it easy to fix.
You make it sound like everyone is willing to take the time of playing a few lives. The more flexible the system, the more of a likelihood they take that time to experiment and get better.
Let them hang themselves, but give them the tools to fix it and we might actually grow our population.

[Kylstrem]

I did something similar with melee warlock. I did 3 lives X 4 characters and it was mostly gritting my teeth. Cap couldn't come fast enough. To me, doing all those caster lives when most or all would have zero to little benefit, I would be wasting hours and hours and lots of TP on xp pots just to get the completionist benefit. Just not worth it to me.

Well your initial post made it sound like you didn't want to do caster classes because you only like barbarian, not because you hate doing the 1-20 quests. My advice was pointed towards if you don't like playing a caster, then you can play a caster just like a barbarian and level just as fast in that manner.

And it was quite enjoyable doing some of the Eldritch Knight stuff on the wiz/sorc lives... got to try out some new things.

FVS/Cleric still kind of sucked though

[somenewnoob]

I'd be in favor of a way to grind them out. Much like heart seeds can get an epic heart.

Heart seeds, cov's, epic tokens, remnants, or some other ingredients could be used to swap for them.

But I doubt we'll EVER see a source of revenue turn into a "everybody gets as many as they want free!" item.

[krimsonrane]

/signed

I agree with the reasoning. After 7 or years of playing I find myself drifting away for the same reasons. I'm not really excited about spending 3 months TRing every time a change happens. Yea... some people take a while. My gaming time is limited.

If I could experiment with build like that it would bring me right back.

[Thar]

Know Your Meme (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/tldr)

thanks, i must be getting old!

[nokowi]

Please don't allow players to grind out +20 hearts. That only helps those who don't need the help.

I see heroic players saying 2000 favor would be OK, and epic players saying 5k would be OK.

Neither would help the new player stuck in a bad build.

On a new account, many games offer rewards for logging in after X period of time.

1. Offering free-respecs for the first month of an account, after playing X times etc.
2. Have a customer support agent that answers build questions, or provide in-game links to popular builds (forget making them go to the forums)

These kinds of things are fine. Your players that routinely TR or ER don't need free hearts.

[theRolf]

Why are we talking about +20 hearts of wood at all?

You are vastly understating the problem. Even a +20 doesn't help you with alignment and race, correct?

Why isn't there simply a reincarnate to present level, do whatever the *^@$ I want option? Why all these sub-versions giving you part (but not all) of the package. If I have a level 16 halforc bard that is no longer fun to play, and I decide that fun for me might be a Halfling paladin then why shouldn't I be able to make this conversion in very short order?

What the costs of such an option should be might make a good debate; that such an option should be available is in my mind undebatable, as I have never heard any convincing reason why it shouldn't be (though I've been asking for one for years).

Absolutely agree with this. Been away for almost 2 years. Been planning on playing again - but need to respec.
So I research. My research happens online, not in game - and in game is where I spend money.
I love the character building and research, but if I could have easily respecced I would have done so and been playing/spending.
Learning by doing...

[RobbinB]

So basically a hybrid TR and LR. You don't get any of the bonuses of a TR (past life, 34/36 point upgrade) or start over at one, but are essentially remaking every part of your character and staying at your current level. Could work, I suppose.

Exactly. The current tr system was introduced at a time when players were clamoring for a chance to change their toons without having to reroll. The "past lives for tr" idea was cool, but the problem was the base idea that was being asked for was excluded. (Example: My guild wants a healer for our guild runs. I have such-and-such a toon that is completely messed up, no fun, and I therefore never play. How about you give me an option where I can spend 20 minutes and presto, now I have a healer for those guild runs.)

And thanks for your comment. I've probably brought this suggestion up literally dozens of times in numerous threads where people are suggesting various changes to the reincarnation system. I've challenged people to give me a rational reason why a complete rework of your character would be "bad" for the game. To date, I haven't got a single one. On the other hand, I usually get absolutely no response to the idea at all. Yadda yadda yadda about how to best rework the +1/+3/+10,0000 hearts of wood and this should be given free or not given free because the game mechanics were changed or such-and-such was nerfed or whatever.

Make a complete character rework possible and it becomes a whole lot easier to adapt to game changes or just "mix things up" a little when a character gets boring. But apparently having a dozen incomplete options is better than one complete option as far as Turbine and most forumites are concerned.

[Brac]

Exactly. The current tr system was introduced at a time when players were clamoring for a chance to change their toons without having to reroll. The "past lives for tr" idea was cool, but the problem was the base idea that was being asked for was excluded. (Example: My guild wants a healer for our guild runs. I have such-and-such a toon that is completely messed up, no fun, and I therefore never play. How about you give me an option where I can spend 20 minutes and presto, now I have a healer for those guild runs.)

And thanks for your comment. I've probably brought this suggestion up literally dozens of times in numerous threads where people are suggesting various changes to the reincarnation system. I've challenged people to give me a rational reason why a complete rework of your character would be "bad" for the game. To date, I haven't got a single one. On the other hand, I usually get absolutely no response to the idea at all. Yadda yadda yadda about how to best rework the +1/+3/+10,0000 hearts of wood and this should be given free or not given free because the game mechanics were changed or such-and-such was nerfed or whatever.

Make a complete character rework possible and it becomes a whole lot easier to adapt to game changes or just "mix things up" a little when a character gets boring. But apparently having a dozen incomplete options is better than one complete option as far as Turbine and most forumites are concerned.

I would think most forumites agree with you that they would prefer a system that re-builds the character from the ground up. The only reason to base the discussion on something like a +20 heart of wood is because the code is already there. If Turbine wanted to make an option like this available to players it seems like they would just give +20 hearts away free instead of redoing the whole system. Just a dev time vs. reward thought. But in a perfect world I am completely on board with you. It is frustrating that you can't change race, alignment, or are limited by the number of classes you previously had vs. what you now want.

[Thar]

Exactly. The current tr system was introduced at a time when players were clamoring for a chance to change their toons without having to reroll. The "past lives for tr" idea was cool, but the problem was the base idea that was being asked for was excluded. (Example: My guild wants a healer for our guild runs. I have such-and-such a toon that is completely messed up, no fun, and I therefore never play. How about you give me an option where I can spend 20 minutes and presto, now I have a healer for those guild runs.)

And thanks for your comment. I've probably brought this suggestion up literally dozens of times in numerous threads where people are suggesting various changes to the reincarnation system. I've challenged people to give me a rational reason why a complete rework of your character would be "bad" for the game. To date, I haven't got a single one. On the other hand, I usually get absolutely no response to the idea at all. Yadda yadda yadda about how to best rework the +1/+3/+10,0000 hearts of wood and this should be given free or not given free because the game mechanics were changed or such-and-such was nerfed or whatever.

Make a complete character rework possible and it becomes a whole lot easier to adapt to game changes or just "mix things up" a little when a character gets boring. But apparently having a dozen incomplete options is better than one complete option as far as Turbine and most forumites are concerned.

I posted one. you would have people do it to get an easy TR pastlife. ie who wants to do a cleric life as they are useless, when you can do a warlock in half the time as you kill 9x as fast.

and the game needs money to survive. +20 should be in the store. but only free in limited circumstances (ie major class nerf changes or 10th ddo anniversary reward...)

[Ykt]

I never bought a LR +20. Out of the 10 or so free ones I got from the enhancement pass a couple years ago I think I used only 1 or maybe 2.

When I want to completely redo a character I just TR or delete it if it was a test build (I even recently deleted a character I had for 5 years who was level 25 because he was redundant and useless).

If they made LR hearts free they wouldn't lose any money from me, but it would definitely make me happier.

[redoubt]

IF this is truly about new players consider this:

The xp needed to level a new character is minimal.

The amount of bound to character loot gained (even to level 20) is minimal.

[Brac]

IF this is truly about new players consider this:

The xp needed to level a new character is minimal.

The amount of bound to character loot gained (even to level 20) is minimal.

I agree, but the perception from a new players standpoint is that they do not want to lose the time they invested. That is what I have observed. I know I can get a character to level 10+ in a weekend. People new to the game take a lot longer and if they spend 3 weeks to get to level 11 and are told to delete and reroll It seems to take the wind out of their sails.

[Grailhawk]

IF this is truly about new players consider this:

The xp needed to level a new character is minimal.

The amount of bound to character loot gained (even to level 20) is minimal.

New players don't perceive it like that. New player starts up spends one month and only gets to level 8 realized he has messed his build up and doesn't want to waist the effort hes already put in. To the new player that is a significant investment.

I can getting to level 8 in a week (hell in a day if I can put in 8 hours) if not less on a 3rd life toon I know how little xp that really is but a new player he cant see that yet.

[walkin_dude]

I never bought a LR +20. Out of the 10 or so free ones I got from the enhancement pass a couple years ago I think I used only 1 or maybe 2.

When I want to completely redo a character I just TR or delete it if it was a test build (I even recently deleted a character I had for 5 years who was level 25 because he was redundant and useless).

If they made LR hearts free they wouldn't lose any money from me, but it would definitely make me happier.

I've used two of them to remove the initial level from iconics (once from PDK for pure bard and once from, uh, also PDK for pure warlock). I also used one to remove the druid level from a stick build I made back before the class passes started.

[nokowi]

IF this is truly about new players consider this:

The xp needed to level a new character is minimal.

The amount of bound to character loot gained (even to level 20) is minimal.

This is funny. I'm guessing you don't know many new players. Some of they take an entire year to get to level 20. I was one of them and I'm now a full completionist. I don't apply my experience now to new players.

[Silverleafeon]

I agree, but the perception from a new players standpoint is that they do not want to lose the time they invested. That is what I have observed. I know I can get a character to level 10+ in a weekend. People new to the game take a lot longer and if they spend 3 weeks to get to level 11 and are told to delete and reroll It seems to take the wind out of their sails.


New players don't perceive it like that. New player starts up spends one month and only gets to level 8 realized he has messed his build up and doesn't want to waist the effort hes already put in. To the new player that is a significant investment.

I can getting to level 8 in a week (hell in a day if I can put in 8 hours) if not less on a 3rd life toon I know how little xp that really is but a new player he cant see that yet.

I can see these points of view, some games grant "new player" packages.

[slarden]

Turbine has been generous with free lessers.

There is a free TR system for respecs which I think is reasonable enough. I don't have an issue with LR +20 being a pay product.

[RoberttheBard]

Strong resistance to a reasonable request.
DDo gives you a lot of rope as a new player to hang yourself. Some builds you won't even know your gimped till 12th lvl.
This game is old and the more accessible it is to new and returning players the better we are as a whole to keep these players.
Experimentation as a new player is incredibly interesting in this game. Learning by doing.
A VIP perk is an excellent idea. More money to keep our game alive and more flexibility, where is the down side?

Then make it accessible only to accounts created within x amount of time of the time it went live, and lock everyone else out. Hell, they could give them out on new account creation, one per toon, not permanent, and be fine. This also prohibits the FotM crowd from jumping ship every time the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. I have a **** ton of them floating around from the enhancement pass handouts, and some of the ones I have used were to cheese a past life I didn't really want to play.

[Ligraph]

Speaking from experience (1st char was a EK pure Sorc, and I played it to cap and maxed spheres, getting ready for 1st TR atm), something like this would be really nice. It could be combined with the "Tainted HOWs" or whatever the name was that was mentioned in another recent thread.

The way I would implement:

Add a new HoW type, "tainted" works. Basically a +20 LR, but you can change everything (alignment, race, maybe name, etc.).
Puts a 5-10 day timer on eTRs and i/hTRs.
1st life characters start with 3 and get 1 per 2 months.
Non-1st life characters get one every 6 months.
Would also be acquirable from some massive grind, maybe CoVs or Heart Seeds, or RRs, or Tokens of the 12, or something similar.


Also, put a link to the wiki game mechanics page (http://ddowiki.com/page/Game_mechanics) ingame, and fix paths. Character planner links would also be helpful.

In addition, add a test server, similar to Lamannia but running live, and always up. Playable area could be limited to the dojo, if it's easier. This would be so new players can test a build before making it. This means the dojo area needs dps kobolds, and preferably a way to test defenses, healing, and agro management.


Analysis:
5-10 day TR timer prevents PL abuse (to a point), because it seems like, if the timer is long enough, by the time you waited the timer out you could be done with the past life already.
Starting with 3 Hearts gives new players enough time for making mistakes, in addition, the test server and ingame links to wiki guide and char planners should help reduce mistakes. If a new player ignores the links to the basic game guide, doesn't use a char planner, and doesn't use a (fixed) path, they build at their own risk.

[Astarii]

I would be up for a random event to do a respect during that event. And, that event is very limited such as a marbar event or something like that...But again, it being yearly and only during a grace period. Or perhaps even on a Random dice roll item of 100.

good luck btw.

[Spekdah_NZ]

For new/first life characters could have a an npc you chat to which stores you current XP in a BtC gem in your inventory (non bankable etc). Them allow a TR process without past lives, call it a reset for what it is - use the current TR cache to store items. The gem would then allow you to get your XP back. Re-level how you want. Can only do once per char, like the free respec token. Character creation is as per a new char, so iconic work as normal.

Optionally, for characters with past lives you could also allow the same functionality but could tie it to a favour level, like 3000-5000, otherwise the npc can't be bothered to talk to you :-) Here the favour ties it to once per life.

I still have two old toons with raiders boxes and I think one still has a cake. But I already have alts in the same build type so they are stuck as mules. I had 3 but did eventually use one to try out mech when the changes were out. I would like to eventually level these but not as they are atm.

[StormKnight]

How about an instanced training room accessible for say 995 TP, free to VIP. I think an area to level up and test out builds would be awesome.

[Tahkhesis]

Personally I'd love to see +20s available for purchase year round. That said, some sort of turn-in system would be amazing. Something en par with the 20 tokens for the TDHoW. When you're earning these tokens, you're already in epics (or your epic toon is farming them for an alt). I don't see a downside to turning in 20 tokens (or something like that) to do a character respec for epics or just to have as an "Oh ####" button after you TR.

The thing is, even new players can get to 20--it definitely sucks sometimes, but it can be done. Epics are a different animal. I think giving people the option to respec at epics (via buying a heart or trading for one) could give greener players a fighting chance to experience an ETR and beyond.

Honestly, maybe adding the advice channel as a tab on LFMs could help new players. Tons of folks are happy to give advice outside the forums, so maybe they join advice LFMs and make it so new players don't think all is lost, when in fact it could be an easy build fix or a multi-class.

Most or some of this has probably been said, I'm terrible about reading every page.

In synopsis: I would totally pay for +20s in the store, but grinding for them as a trade in would be swell also.

[Ralmeth]

Not signed. I don't think free respecs are the solution to help out new players and I think would lead to too much abuse (i.e. Level in one class or build and take a heroic past life in another). Instead in order to help out new players I would recommend two things (I've said these before and will say them again).

1) Improve the character paths. To keep the workload down, I would recommend to limit this rework to FTP classes and races, with one or two paths per class, which comes with a recommended FTP race.

2) Add more in game tutorial NPCs that people could talk to and receive guidance.

[Xanthrawl]

I gotta admit, I clicked the thread expecting a troll. But after reading the OP, I have to admit that I agree.

We've all, at one point or another, thought to ourselves that there should be a better way. All of us posting here have moved on, whether through TR, buying a heart, or destroying the character. But there are a lot of people no longer playing because of this.

The learning curve is steep in DDO. And having an unforgiving character creation process is a big turn off for many. I had 3 friends that would play once a week as VIPS. They have all quit for this very reason, and that's with the help and advice of a vet, and a high level guild ship.

One was an Artificer (made before the Rogue pass.) He loved it in heroics, but felt mostly useless in epics. And when he read about the Mechanic pass, he quit. Playing once a week, it took almost a year to get to 20. The thought of scrapping that effort was too much.

One was a fighter, made before the paladin pass. She was overwhelmed by all of the feat choices, and discouraged by the lack of self sufficiency.

The other was a cleric and was only playing to hang out with us. When the other 2 quit, so did she.

3 VIP subscriptions lost because they could not modify their builds.

They knew hearts were sold in the store, but when they're already paying a sub for a game they play once a week; they really felt trapped. Like Turbine was preying on the new and inexperienced.

As a previous poster mentioned, I too have bought 0 hearts. They would be losing no revenue from me offering something like this. However they did lose 3 monthly subs by NOT offering it.

[cmecu]

The answer is solid path builds, and better in game tuition of new players about how the system works. Not free respecs.


This right here is good. How the system works. This game has a HUGE learning curve, and takes forever just to understand one class, yet alone all of them. How attributes affect things, how saves affect, things that stack or dont, knwoing what feats are good and what isnt, skills to level up, how to gear up, where to go, what to do. The game is like your dropped in the middle of a desert and you need to figure out what in the hell to do to survive.
There is hardly any good up to date guides out there any more, no one helps in game, there are hardly any people on to help any way.
There isnt good enough information out there on effective leveling, gearing, crafting.. DDOwiki doesnt explain much either. Just basic information, but doesnt help walk you through the how.
Like challenges. Where is the information for that? How do you get it, what do you do , what can you earn..WHo what when where ...What to expect, how to prepare..
I dont expect the makes of the game to give us all the information, but I expect more out of the community of people who still play this game. New people like myself need better support or else the game gets frustrating, and it will just be removed from the computer and a new game to replace it.
I think this is an extremely fun game to play and would love to play with other people, but no one is ever on, and its next to impossible to find groups.

I wonder if they could condense some of the servers.

[FranOhmsford]

I wonder if they could condense some of the servers.

At the very least Wayfinder should be merged with Ghallanda!

Orien-Thelanis would be another good choice.

That would leave us with 6 Servers {Orien-Thelanis being the largest} which at this point in time is more than enough for DDO.

[RobbinB]

I posted one. you would have people do it to get an easy TR pastlife. ie who wants to do a cleric life as they are useless, when you can do a warlock in half the time as you kill 9x as fast.

and the game needs money to survive. +20 should be in the store. but only free in limited circumstances (ie major class nerf changes or 10th ddo anniversary reward...)

To your 1st point I could say "is that the best there is?" but assuming you really are concerned about the "exploitiveness" of using one class to level then reworking then tr'ing (already convulted enough to make me not bother) then just have Turbine adjust code to record the classes at which each level was first obtained and those become locked in.

Your 2nd point doesn't relate to my point about character "reworks" being available. I haven't stated whether there should be costs or time limitations or whatever, that's another debate.

[knobaroo]

Then make it accessible only to accounts created within x amount of time of the time it went live, and lock everyone else out. Hell, they could give them out on new account creation, one per toon, not permanent, and be fine. This also prohibits the FotM crowd from jumping ship every time the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. I have a **** ton of them floating around from the enhancement pass handouts, and some of the ones I have used were to cheese a past life I didn't really want to play.

I don't care how it is implemented. 10 years old, no advertising or mention of our beloved game anywhere, yet we are still here. I have tried so many different games in this 10 years but always find my way back here. It has changed so much over the years. I know what my sign up date says on the forums but I still have my boxed CD I bought on week one the game came out.
I am not looking for my +20 hearts. Generally speaking when they make a significant change, I get some anyway.
I want the people that try out our game to stay. Locking a new player in decisions they don't understand is ante productive to this task. If someone is trying this game out on a whim, they are not going to sit down and read or comprehend all the possible nuances of building a character.
Also I really don't care how you play the game.. It does not effect me in the least that you don't want to play "X" class. I don't care about completionist I play with my group, pug every so often and am in no way in competition with anyone. Experimentation is a blast for me. Being able to dial it in and make changes would be nice and enhance my enjoyment of the game. But again I read and plan so its not a big deal to get locked in.
How many of you out there have taken the time to bring a new player into the game, invest time and plat only to have them stay for 2 weeks. If they could change things could it be possible to keep them around for the benefit to us all?
Again I don't see a down side to allowing change for all, but especially, for the new players in particular.

[EllisDee37]

On a free +20 respec I don't think it should reset on reincarnation and I think it should have at least a 1 year timer. I read "reset" to mean "restart." As in, whenever you reincarnate, the timer resets at 0, meaning you have to wait another full year before you can claim your free "Prodigal Heart."

And count me as /signed for this. Seems like an awesome incentive to get people to return to the game. Specific mechanics spelled out:

Each character has a Prodigal Heart timer, with a 1 year countdown. Once the timer expires, you can claim a free LR+20 heart. The timer starts back at a full year countdown whenever:
1) The character is first created (brand new timer gets attached)
2) The character goes through any of HTR, ITR, ER, or LR
3) The character claims a Prodigal Heart

Unlimited claims per character, but of course there's a minimum of 1 year between claims, and the first claim isn't available until a year after the character is created.

EDIT: If the last time you logged into an account was over a year ago, all characters on the account can immediately claim a prodigal heart. This would retroactively take care of any returning players without having to know their last reincarnation.

[Grailhawk]

... and the first claim isn't available until a year after the character is created.

That has issue for new players who made a mistake and don't know it until their 3-4 months into the game and only level 11 they should have access to this at that time.

I don't think the timer should be attached at character creation it should be attached and reset to TR and ITR, I'm not sure about ETR and LR but if some one can point out any kind of exploit then yes it should be there to.

[eris2323]

EDIT: If the last time you logged into an account was over a year ago, all characters on the account can immediately claim a prodigal heart. This would retroactively take care of any returning players without having to know their last reincarnation.
I don't like the fact that while I may have logged into gimped characters to trade inv items, I have several characters I haven't actually played in over a year, and some of those I'd like to fix.

But I'm actually okay with Turbine just putting LR+20 in the store, I'll buy them if necessary.

[EllisDee37]

That has issue for new players who made a mistake and don't know it until their 3-4 months into the game and only level 11 they should have access to this at that time.

I don't think the timer should be attached at character creation it should be attached and reset to TR and ITR, I'm not sure about ETR and LR but if some one can point out any kind of exploit then yes it should be there to.Sounds reasonable.

[Kompera_Oberon]

How about just giving all new characters a "free" +20 heart, just like they now get a "free" lesser heart?

That would let Bob TR his character and essentially recreate it without having to get to 20th first, and still hang on to his lesser heart for the inevitable time when he thinks he needs to swap out more than one Feat? Swapping just one Feat can still be done via Fred using Siberys Dragonshards and plat.

And it wouldn't completely cut into whatever revenues Turbine manages to pull off of the sale of +20 hearts.

[Grailhawk]

How about just giving all new characters a "free" +20 heart, just like they now get a "free" lesser heart?

That would let Bob TR his character and essentially recreate it without having to get to 20th first, and still hang on to his lesser heart for the inevitable time when he thinks he needs to swap out more than one Feat? Swapping just one Feat can still be done via Fred using Siberys Dragonshards and plat.

And it wouldn't completely cut into whatever revenues Turbine manages to pull off of the sale of +20 hearts.


I see two issue with that.
1) putting it in there inventory makes them want to use it to some extent better to be something they need to ask about and find then something they just see but don't know what it for.

2) That doesn't address the issue of the Prodigal player who has been gone a significant amount of time to really need a rework on a old character that is no long viable because the game has changed too much.

If +20 hearts were in the store permanently at a reasonable price ~$10. I wouldn't think of number 2 as an issue. Unfortunately +20 hearts are seasonal and are not quite reasonably priced (I think there are closer to the $20 range correct me if I'm wrong).

[Anoregon]

Also, for folks concerned that some form of readily-accessible respec would allow people to easily cheese TR past lives, there are definitely ways that Turbine could mitigate that. Whatever form the new respec takes could come with a caveat that you have to have played a class for X levels/hours/quests/etc in order for it to count towards a TR past life. So if you level to 20 as a warlock then try to swap over to Paladin for a past life, you would have to, say, get X amount of XP (11 levels worth maybe?) as a Paladin in order to qualify for the past life. Almost like how Karma works for Epic past lives.

The above example is a bit messy I know, but the point is there are ways to make it work.

[EllisDee37]

Also, for folks concerned that some form of readily-accessible respec would allow people to easily cheese TR past lives, there are definitely ways that Turbine could mitigate that. Whatever form the new respec takes could come with a caveat that you have to have played a class for X levels/hours/quests/etc in order for it to count towards a TR past life. So if you level to 20 as a warlock then try to swap over to Paladin for a past life, you would have to, say, get X amount of XP (11 levels worth maybe?) as a Paladin in order to qualify for the past life. Almost like how Karma works for Epic past lives.

The above example is a bit messy I know, but the point is there are ways to make it work.Or have it apply a week timer (or whatever) before you're allowed to HTR / ITR.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Also, for folks concerned that some form of readily-accessible respec would allow people to easily cheese TR past lives, there are definitely ways that Turbine could mitigate that. Whatever form the new respec takes could come with a caveat that you have to have played a class for X levels/hours/quests/etc in order for it to count towards a TR past life. So if you level to 20 as a warlock then try to swap over to Paladin for a past life, you would have to, say, get X amount of XP (11 levels worth maybe?) as a Paladin in order to qualify for the past life. Almost like how Karma works for Epic past lives.

The above example is a bit messy I know, but the point is there are ways to make it work.
Or have it apply a week timer (or whatever) before you're allowed to HTR / ITR.

Both are good ideas, but good ideas float across this forum all the time. The thing to ask is "How much dev time is required?" Because leaving it alone is free. Adding a free +20 stone at character creation is a matter of copying the same code that grants the free LR stone, or possibly just adding the +20 stone to the set of things given to new characters on creation. So probably very little time.

Either of your suggestions would probably take much more dev time to code in, and that reduces the chance that your ideas will be adopted from slim to almost none, because there is no real way for Turbine to measure why they lost a customer. Some kind of "We're sorry to see you go, would you mind telling us why" survey might help, but then you need a way to get it to people who are just not going to play anymore, and most of those won't be interested in spending the time to fill out the survey anyway.

EllisDee's suggestion might be fairly easy, since there is already a 3 day timer on repeating an eTR applied, so that code exists in an almost complete state already.

[Uska]

Not no but hell no

[Taimasan]

I would be fine with one free reroll a month

[Uska]

How about just giving all new characters a "free" +20 heart, just like they now get a "free" lesser heart?

That would let Bob TR his character and essentially recreate it without having to get to 20th first, and still hang on to his lesser heart for the inevitable time when he thinks he needs to swap out more than one Feat? Swapping just one Feat can still be done via Fred using Siberys Dragonshards and plat.

And it wouldn't completely cut into whatever revenues Turbine manages to pull off of the sale of +20 hearts.

Again hell no

[Grailhawk]

Again hell no

Why not?

[Uska]

+20 hearts for free is a bad business idea and robs the game of a valued asset that can be earned if implemented correctly. While I disagree with Brac's under-powered hypothesis, having +20 hearts incorporated into the game would be a good move. Say 50 heart seeds or more for one, or 1,000 CoV, or some other way in which in game items can be utilized.

Better

[Uska]

God No!

It's bad enough the grind to get a +5 Tome!

That amount of Grind for what amounts to the ability to make a Morninglord without the useless Cleric level is INSANE!

Maybe add it to the 1750 Favour Reward? Or even 2500 {FavSoul - Would work DDO Lore Wise to make a Morninglord Soul :)}.

Thought 5k was a bit much 1750 sounds good since the reward for that needs revision

[Uska]

Strong resistance to a reasonable request.
DDo gives you a lot of rope as a new player to hang yourself. Some builds you won't even know your gimped till 12th lvl.
This game is old and the more accessible it is to new and returning players the better we are as a whole to keep these players.
Experimentation as a new player is incredibly interesting in this game. Learning by doing.
A VIP perk is an excellent idea. More money to keep our game alive and more flexibility, where is the down side?

How is it a reasonable reuest? It's not

[Uska]

Why not?

Because they should be earned or bought not free willy nilly the once a year idea isn't bad if they BTCOA

[krimsonrane]

Why does it have to be all about new players? After 7 plus years can I get some consideration too?
Again, I'll repeat. it takes me 3 or more months to TR. Most times I only do it because drastic changes have altered my build and gear. I don't want to TR. I just want to play and develop my toon to my own satisfaction and then play it. So offering free respecs is more of a way to make up for the continuous disregard for peoples hard work than it is about new players. I would play much more if I could experiment more freely without huge time sinks.

[knobaroo]

How is it a reasonable reuest? It's not

I explained why I thought it was a reasonable request. But your right, your argument of "It's not" is far more compelling.

[Ligraph]

Why does it have to be all about new players? After 7 plus years can I get some consideration too?
Again, I'll repeat. it takes me 3 or more months to TR. Most times I only do it because drastic changes have altered my build and gear. I don't want to TR. I just want to play and develop my toon to my own satisfaction and then play it. So offering free respecs is more of a way to make up for the continuous disregard for peoples hard work than it is about new players. I would play much more if I could experiment more freely without huge time sinks.

Have you gotten or used the free +20 or +5 Hearts that were given out at updates/patches with major changes?

Also, for the test server idea, it's defiantly something that should be implemented. I make do by using Lamannia, but that takes away from bug finding, and is a pain.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Because they [+20 Lesser Hearts] should be earned or bought not free willy nilly the once a year idea isn't bad if they BTCOA
How is giving characters one free +20 Lesser Heart at character creation any different than giving characters one free Lesser Heart at character creation, which happens now? I must have missed all your posts railing about that willy nilly giveaway, but feel free to provide me with the links so I can catch up.

[RoberttheBard]

How is giving characters one free +20 Lesser Heart at character creation any different than giving characters one free Lesser Heart at character creation, which happens now? I must have missed all your posts railing about that willy nilly giveaway, but feel free to provide me with the links so I can catch up.

So you can change all the class levels you took when you use that freebie heart? Of course not, and that makes it a lot different from a stone where you can. Earn them, whether through favor, or from the store, but don't just start passing them out like candy.

You see, my biggest issue is the exploitiveness of the idea. Of course people that may want to stay up on the FotM are all for it, after all, they'll be able to play the FotM for free, any time they want, thus taking income away from Turbine. Granting them to new accounts takes into consideration "Bob", since that was a new account. Granting them to vets just opens the door to the FotM club exploiting freebies, especially as laid out in the OP.

[Brac]

Because they should be earned or bought not free willy nilly the once a year idea isn't bad if they BTCOA

Why should they be bought? That is the worst argument. Just because Turbine introduces something as a pay feature does not mean it should be. If you are so passionate that Turbine needs to get paid why not be in favor of it being a VIP perk?

[krimsonrane]

Have you gotten or used the free +20 or +5 Hearts that were given out at updates/patches with major changes?

Also, for the test server idea, it's defiantly something that should be implemented. I make do by using Lamannia, but that takes away from bug finding, and is a pain.

yes. the +20's but most the +5's can't help me with the few toons I actually play. may as well be a +0. I still used them even if never changing classes.

[Uska]

Why should they be bought? That is the worst argument. Just because Turbine introduces something as a pay feature does not mean it should be. If you are so passionate that Turbine needs to get paid why not be in favor of it being a VIP perk?

You ask for two much didnt you see where I said once a year wouldnt be bad and I want more VIP perks but I want someting I would use. we dont need easy access to FOTM

[Starla70]

I think the +20 to be used endlessly is just a bad idea. They are available a couple of times a year. You can get them at that point. The use them endlessly doesn't make sense. The idea is to learn by building toons that survive. If you had the ablity to constantly change things, what would be learned?

[Kompera_Oberon]

Earn them, whether through favor, or from the store, but don't just start passing them out like candy.

Using hyperbole to try to make your point doesn't make your point.

Giving one +20 LR heart to all new characters at character creation is no more "handing them out like candy" than is giving one LR heart to all new characters at character creation. Because that already happens, and I don't see you complaining about it.

[Anoregon]

thus taking income away from Turbine.

You know what else takes income away from Turbine? Potential new players quitting the game when they find out that DDO has no readily available method of correcting character creation/customization mistakes (or players looking to return and discovering their toons are radically different) aside from paying real money or suffering through a gimp character until 20+ so you can TR.

[Grailhawk]

I think the +20 to be used endlessly is just a bad idea. They are available a couple of times a year. You can get them at that point. The use them endlessly doesn't make sense. The idea is to learn by building toons that survive. If you had the ablity to constantly change things, what would be learned?

You, actually learn a lot about the game by playing different classes. The I'm board and don't want to replay heroic just to try out a different class so I'm going to just play a different game players are the once that a free +20 once a year would also keep playing.

A free +20 once a year or even once every 18 months could go a long way in player retention. I don't think It should be more frequent than that though and also probably think it should be limited to one per account but there are merits to letting people respec with out having to pay for it or grind out a PL for it.

[karatemack]

You know what else takes income away from Turbine? Potential new players quitting the game when they find out that DDO has no readily available method of correcting character creation/customization mistakes (or players looking to return and discovering their toons are radically different) aside from paying real money or suffering through a gimp character until 20+ so you can TR.

I have never known a single person, in the entire time I've played DDO, who has quit for this reason.

The pre-made paths were originally meant to help avoid this, however were never really great builds (even when they were made) and now are woefully outdated. There have been a few threads about updating these in the past, however those threads nearly always get derailed into arguments about which way to redesign the pre-made paths would be best. Iconics are the new pre-made build however require purchase. I would rather see a free iconic class, or updated pre-made paths, before the devs gave away free +20 hearts on a regular schedule. On another note, I would like the free LR hearts to go away soon too (right about the time the class passes are complete).

[RoberttheBard]

Using hyperbole to try to make your point doesn't make your point.

Giving one +20 LR heart to all new characters at character creation is no more "handing them out like candy" than is giving one LR heart to all new characters at character creation. Because that already happens, and I don't see you complaining about it.

It's ironic, because I'm sure I said much the same thing in the part of the post you snipped out. Do you want to discuss what I said, or what you want me to have said? If the latter, send me a PM, so I know what it is I was supposed to have said instead. You see, the context for this line that you chose to quote ties directly into the title of this thread, read that, and see if you still think it's hyperbole.

[RoberttheBard]

You know what else takes income away from Turbine? Potential new players quitting the game when they find out that DDO has no readily available method of correcting character creation/customization mistakes (or players looking to return and discovering their toons are radically different) aside from paying real money or suffering through a gimp character until 20+ so you can TR.

You know, it might. You know what though? If people get that "panties in a knot" mad about a character build, and didn't come to the forums, or read the wiki, or ask in game, preferably in guild, then really, what are we losing, some impatient children that didn't take advantage of the tools already available, and so quit? Won't these be the same people that want you to "help" them in a quest, by letting them pike all the way through? No great loss.

The better solution, instead of coming to the forums begging for more free stuff, is to help these new players when you come across them, instead of zerging the quest they may be in with you, and telling them how bad their build sucks. I have literally spent an hour at a time, helping new players in my guild, and not so new players that didn't have a clue, figure out deficiencies in their builds and work on getting them corrected. This is how you help people get better, not getting free stuff so they can change builds whenever they want.

[RobbinB]

You know what else takes income away from Turbine? Potential new players quitting the game when they find out that DDO has no readily available method of correcting character creation/customization mistakes (or players looking to return and discovering their toons are radically different) aside from paying real money or suffering through a gimp character until 20+ so you can TR.

Bingo.

If only Turbine would enlighten us as to the extensive datamining analysis they have conducted which determines how many additional TP they've created through the DDO store from HoW purchases due to their convoluted tr options, against their lost revenue from peeps leaving the game due to those same convoluted procedures.

[karatemack]

Bingo.

If only Turbine would enlighten us as to the extensive datamining analysis they have conducted which determines how many additional TP they've created through the DDO store from HoW purchases due to their convoluted tr options, against their lost revenue from peeps leaving the game due to those same convoluted procedures.

I don't find the TR options to be convoluted at all. They make sense and are fairly easy to follow. Especially considering the in-game UI which walks you through the process in detail to ensure you don't make a mistake. And, since the addition of heart seeds, gaining access to HoW for TR shouldn't require a purchase at all. They are very easy to come by. If you meant LR HoW, then I don't see how those HoW would have a correlation to the TR process.

Also, as has already been pointed out in another thread, allowing players to have unlimited +20 hearts would essentially mean players could power level through content on the build of their choice then LR +20 before TR to get a PL of their choice having never actually played that class.

[krimsonrane]

Using hyperbole to try to make your point doesn't make your point.

Giving one +20 LR heart to all new characters at character creation is no more "handing them out like candy" than is giving one LR heart to all new characters at character creation. Because that already happens, and I don't see you complaining about it.

Give them out once a month with a VIP subscription.

[krimsonrane]

It might be a good idea to remind folks that a complete class change through a stone and a TR are not the same thing. There are no extra benefits from changing your build with a stone.

[MaximumCharisma]

I think this is a bad idea. The one aging game that responded to players advice and allowed free character respecs actually led to it becoming boring. You make choices in a game like this that are permanent and reflect your experience with the game. I am sure that most people here built a bad character first time around. It is part of what makes this game appealing.

Since several people mentioned new players quitting over having to redo a toon; I quit that game I mentioned because free rebuild lowered the replay value of it immensely and made options I took to explore the game feel cheap and without challenge.

VIP already comes with free +20 hearts. 500 points a month adds up to a free +20 heart about every time it is needed.

[Kompera_Oberon]

I have never known a single person, in the entire time I've played DDO, who has quit for this reason.

That's an interesting citation. It has no numbers associated with it, so we can't know how long you've been playing or how many people you have interacted with. So it is very hard to make an objective case using your experience.

For my part, I've been playing for just over 1 year. I have managed to recruit only one person into playing this game. That person is a PnP D&D player, and so was fairly excited to learn that there was an online game that would allow him to play D&D.

He quit playing after about 7 play sessions. His reasons? The game was too difficult to build a successful character in. This from a person who I have played D&D with from 3 booklet set through 4e.

That's a 1 for 1 line up of people who have quit for "this reason." Yeah, not a huge sample size, but for me it has a lot of weight.

[bartharok]

That's an interesting citation. It has no numbers associated with it, so we can't know how long you've been playing or how many people you have interacted with. So it is very hard to make an objective case using your experience.

For my part, I've been playing for just over 1 year. I have managed to recruit only one person into playing this game. That person is a PnP D&D player, and so was fairly excited to learn that there was an online game that would allow him to play D&D.

He quit playing after about 7 play sessions. His reasons? The game was too difficult to build a successful character in. This from a person who I have played D&D with from 3 booklet set through 4e.

That's a 1 for 1 line up of people who have quit for "this reason." Yeah, not a huge sample size, but for me it has a lot of weight.

I know some people enjoy playing a game where you can make no mistakes, but i enjoy trying to avoid making them.

[RobbinB]

I don't find the TR options to be convoluted at all. They make sense and are fairly easy to follow. Especially considering the in-game UI which walks you through the process in detail to ensure you don't make a mistake. And, since the addition of heart seeds, gaining access to HoW for TR shouldn't require a purchase at all. They are very easy to come by. If you meant LR HoW, then I don't see how those HoW would have a correlation to the TR process.

Also, as has already been pointed out in another thread, allowing players to have unlimited +20 hearts would essentially mean players could power level through content on the build of their choice then LR +20 before TR to get a PL of their choice having never actually played that class.

Well, I guess our definitions are different. For example, when I have a character that is ready for Epic TR and all I want to do is basically recreate the same character (same feats, same look, same everything) - nope, sorry, you have to go through the entire levelling and character creation process - have fun spending 1 hour plus just sort of getting back to "sort of" the same thing. I find that convoluted. Or maybe ridiculous is a better word.

And as another poster pointed out (and myself as well) - the game can be coded to remember your classes levelled and lock them in as far as PLs are concerned.

[SiliconScout]

It might be a good idea to remind folks that a complete class change through a stone and a TR are not the same thing. There are no extra benefits from changing your build with a stone.

Incorrect.

Let's say I run to 20 with a warlock (super easy button)... pop the +20 take them as cleric, TR and run warlock to 20 again, pop a stone and take them as bard ... etc, etc, etc.

So given the OP and thread title that they should not only be free but unlimited, and even the idea that they should be free but limited, is for sure giving extra benefits. Granted some will use them to respec but let's all be honest here, the vast majority would get used to gain past lives that you didn't play at all.

[SiliconScout]

That's an interesting citation. It has no numbers associated with it, so we can't know how long you've been playing or how many people you have interacted with. So it is very hard to make an objective case using your experience.

For my part, I've been playing for just over 1 year. I have managed to recruit only one person into playing this game. That person is a PnP D&D player, and so was fairly excited to learn that there was an online game that would allow him to play D&D.

He quit playing after about 7 play sessions. His reasons? The game was too difficult to build a successful character in. This from a person who I have played D&D with from 3 booklet set through 4e.

That's a 1 for 1 line up of people who have quit for "this reason." Yeah, not a huge sample size, but for me it has a lot of weight.

Well I have been playing since shortly after launch, I have had meaningful interaction with well over 100 players, I have had very close interaction with about two dozen. Of all these players only three still play the game. Some quit due to time limitations / life but the VAST majority, and all of the really good players I played with, quit because there was not longer any challenge, it had been made too easy, the characters too powerful. And this is on toons that were certainly NOT completionists. The one with the most PL's had 9 (3 sorc, 3 wiz, 3 FvS) and most of them had 1-5 I would say.

Hell at one point we made Elf Sorc/monks with purposely gimped CON, Wind stance and cursed items to bring that con down to a 2. We topped out at 42 or 46 HP .. can't remember it was right in there. Made it to level 12 and quit because while it was certainly challenging it wasn't really "fun" challenging because everything was basically a 1 shot kill on you at that point. Having said that that first 8 levels were actually quite easy.

I have never, ever, EVER once heard any of them quit because it was too hard to make a good toon. They quit because it was too easy to gain power and there was no real challenge left, even on a first life toon.

In your case you have 1 person who didn't put in any time understanding the game and thought it would play out like PnP who quit when they found out it wasn't. That isn't a surprise, you can almost always tell a PnP newb when you bump into one because they don't realize that this is NOT DnD not really it's DDO. Some learn (like we all did) make the adjustments and move forward in the game, some never learn and muddle on forever and some just turn around and head out the door because it either failed expectations or they were unwilling or unable to make the adjustment. Sounds like your friend is in that 3rd category and while that is regrettable I don't see how making sweeping changes like this would be of use to him.

If this proposal is about helping out new players I really don't think they need a +20, most of them have figured out they have pooched a toon by level 6 or so I would think. I have probably made well over 100 toons in this game, hell it was a bit of a joke in the guild for a while as I would take a toon to level 6 maybe 10 and then delete them and make a new toon with the same name. Granted this was before the character planner was out / widely used and I was experimenting with different types of builds and play-styles to learn what worked for me and what did not so I find it "odd" that a new player wouldn't just delete and try again.. those first 6 levels can be taken in a day if you are willing to run fast and hard. Even as a casual player they take maybe a week for most.

[Gremmlynn]

Well I have been playing since shortly after launch, I have had meaningful interaction with well over 100 players, I have had very close interaction with about two dozen. Of all these players only three still play the game. Some quit due to time limitations / life but the VAST majority, and all of the really good players I played with, quit because there was not longer any challenge, it had been made too easy, the characters too powerful. And this is on toons that were certainly NOT completionists. The one with the most PL's had 9 (3 sorc, 3 wiz, 3 FvS) and most of them had 1-5 I would say.

Hell at one point we made Elf Sorc/monks with purposely gimped CON, Wind stance and cursed items to bring that con down to a 2. We topped out at 42 or 46 HP .. can't remember it was right in there. Made it to level 12 and quit because while it was certainly challenging it wasn't really "fun" challenging because everything was basically a 1 shot kill on you at that point. Having said that that first 8 levels were actually quite easy.

I have never, ever, EVER once heard any of them quit because it was too hard to make a good toon. They quit because it was too easy to gain power and there was no real challenge left, even on a first life toon.

In your case you have 1 person who didn't put in any time understanding the game and thought it would play out like PnP who quit when they found out it wasn't. That isn't a surprise, you can almost always tell a PnP newb when you bump into one because they don't realize that this is NOT DnD not really it's DDO. Some learn (like we all did) make the adjustments and move forward in the game, some never learn and muddle on forever and some just turn around and head out the door because it either failed expectations or they were unwilling or unable to make the adjustment. Sounds like your friend is in that 3rd category and while that is regrettable I don't see how making sweeping changes like this would be of use to him.

If this proposal is about helping out new players I really don't think they need a +20, most of them have figured out they have pooched a toon by level 6 or so I would think. I have probably made well over 100 toons in this game, hell it was a bit of a joke in the guild for a while as I would take a toon to level 6 maybe 10 and then delete them and make a new toon with the same name. Granted this was before the character planner was out / widely used and I was experimenting with different types of builds and play-styles to learn what worked for me and what did not so I find it "odd" that a new player wouldn't just delete and try again.. those first 6 levels can be taken in a day if you are willing to run fast and hard. Even as a casual player they take maybe a week for most.I could see how the very idea of learning what works and what doesn't, just to get to the part where one actually gets to play the game could be a turn off to anyone who is here to actually play the game though.

[karatemack]

Well, I guess our definitions are different. For example, when I have a character that is ready for Epic TR and all I want to do is basically recreate the same character (same feats, same look, same everything) - nope, sorry, you have to go through the entire levelling and character creation process - have fun spending 1 hour plus just sort of getting back to "sort of" the same thing. I find that convoluted. Or maybe ridiculous is a better word.

And as another poster pointed out (and myself as well) - the game can be coded to remember your classes levelled and lock them in as far as PLs are concerned.

I agree with you that the look of the toon could be locked in. That being said, the options are numbered and shouldn't be that difficult to get back to the way they were.

I enjoy having the option to respec my toon when I ETR. If remembering the stat options, feats, etc you took along the way makes the process complicated and joyless for you, I would recommend using the character planner. It will map out your leveling process for you and allow you to save your specific build so it doesn't take you an hour to level up when ETR'ing.

I would support the DEVs giving you the option to skip the respec process if it was something you chose at the time of ETR, but which still gave the option to respec for those who want it.

[RoberttheBard]

I could see how the very idea of learning what works and what doesn't, just to get to the part where one actually gets to play the game could be a turn off to anyone who is here to actually play the game though.

I can't. That's part of playing the game. I'm not even talking about theory crafting builds, that's part of playing any game. The world would be a very dull place if everyone that tried something and failed on the first attempt just quit, wouldn't it? There are, of course, people who will do just that, the OP is an example of that, but the vast majority of gamers understand that they have to learn to play a new game when they get it, instead of expecting it to be exactly like every other game they've ever played.

But let's look at some of the flaws in the OP:

Just what benefit did Bob expect to get to his healing from 3 levels of cleric? According to the OP, he has vast experience building characters in DnD, but he didn't know that 3 levels of cleric wasn't going to make him a very good healer? Something isn't adding up there, for me. Of course, there's a lot of people willing to overlook that because "Free +20 hearts with unlimited uses" is better than an honest assessment of gameplay in DDO. I could ask the same question about 3 levels of Ranger, running a repeater build. What research did Bob do to find out what may actually help him, as opposed to "Cleric = Healer, so I'll take some levels"? Maybe Bob would have been better served to ditch 3 levels or either and putting them in the other.

You see, I see in the OP where some people actually tried to help Bob, but Bob, in his infinite wisdom, thought he knew what he was doing, and when he found out he didn't, instead of trying to figure out what's wrong, he quit. A free +20 heart isn't going to help Bob, because he'll just keep making the same mistakes, no matter what build he's trying to run. In his case, however, a +3 heart would have been fine: He could remove either the cleric or ranger levels, and invest those levels in which ever one he kept, and been better off, even if he'd still not be better. He could ditch the repeater and go dual wield if he opted to keep the ranger levels, and done himself a world of good. Instead, he rage quit because "this game sucks because I don't know how to build characters".

[Gljosh]

Well since we are wishing for free stuff. I would like a free Otto's Box with an unlimited use XP Stone. It is tough to grind out other classes, just to get the benefit. /sarcasm

I do think that keeping the +20 hearts as a quarterly event is fine. Keep them on a similar schedule as the Otto's Box. Turbine needs to have a nice monetary bump towards the end of each quarter.

[krimsonrane]

Incorrect.

Let's say I run to 20 with a warlock (super easy button)... pop the +20 take them as cleric, TR and run warlock to 20 again, pop a stone and take them as bard ... etc, etc, etc.

So given the OP and thread title that they should not only be free but unlimited, and even the idea that they should be free but limited, is for sure giving extra benefits. Granted some will use them to respec but let's all be honest here, the vast majority would get used to gain past lives that you didn't play at all.

Until you mentioned it that kind of thought process didn't exist for me. Even if they did how does it hurt me?
So they didn't play that arti life and got the PL for one. So what? How about pretending we did and don't? Isn't the whole game about pretending you're doing something that you are not?


Anyway my suggestion would be one a month with VIP subscriptions. I've heard people say they were getting stones for VIP but I've been a subscriber for half a dozen years and that was never one of my perks outside of a way to make up for mess ups.

[zwiebelring]

This game has become a monster regarding bonuses and fishing for them. That alone miht drive off new players. The reading outga,e sources has become its own game and personally, I hate it. Any game shouldprovide proper tutorials within the game. Yes, that means handholding to an extent, but that is needed. Now with lvl. 30 more than ever, in my opinion. It might start by settling the paths of characters into the right power level from casual to elite. it might even help, using favored feats and enhancements used by actual players and ignoring useless ones...like Skill Focus, for example. Some are not relevant or good choices. They bear the nostagia of the former d20 DnD but that's it. The game has changed and fishing for bonuses has become its own game in DDO. Charcater customization and power level highly depends on that.

A path cannot fullfill any of the new little grinding games so new players should be set straight about that. Hitting frustration walls is never a fun thing in games.

+20 hearts and the past lives have become common character building concepts. re-speccing your character for free would be nice for every vet. and player in general. But it is too powerful and diminishes profit. As much as I like the idea from a player's perspective, I don't think it was a good thing for us. It is another business decision neutered so it won't happen.

[nokowi]

Giving new players access to Lamannia-Light (simplified version) would let them test builds without needing +20 hearts.

Players should be able to <one button> copy their real builds, and new players should be able to "select a build" with one button and go try it out <briefly> on Lamannia.

I'm not sure what the proper amount of time is, but it should be enough for a player to find a build they like, and then go try it out in the real game.

[Grailhawk]

Giving new players access to Lamannia-Light (simplified version) would let them test builds without needing +20 hearts.

Players should be able to <one button> copy their real builds, and new players should be able to "select a build" with one button and go try it out <briefly> on Lamannia.

I'm not sure what the proper amount of time is, but it should be enough for a player to find a build they like, and then go try it out in the real game.

That's to much work for a new player who just want to play the game. testing out builds seeing if they work is really more a vet thing. You would probably have more luck getting new players to read up the forums to find a build then go test one on a server that doesn't count for progress.

[Chai]

I have never known a single person, in the entire time I've played DDO, who has quit for this reason.

I have met quite a few.

Due to the combination of "game changes a lot + paid character respec"

[Gremmlynn]

I can't. That's part of playing the game. I'm not even talking about theory crafting builds, that's part of playing any game. The world would be a very dull place if everyone that tried something and failed on the first attempt just quit, wouldn't it? There are, of course, people who will do just that, the OP is an example of that, but the vast majority of gamers understand that they have to learn to play a new game when they get it, instead of expecting it to be exactly like every other game they've ever played.

But let's look at some of the flaws in the OP:

Just what benefit did Bob expect to get to his healing from 3 levels of cleric? According to the OP, he has vast experience building characters in DnD, but he didn't know that 3 levels of cleric wasn't going to make him a very good healer? Something isn't adding up there, for me. Of course, there's a lot of people willing to overlook that because "Free +20 hearts with unlimited uses" is better than an honest assessment of gameplay in DDO. I could ask the same question about 3 levels of Ranger, running a repeater build. What research did Bob do to find out what may actually help him, as opposed to "Cleric = Healer, so I'll take some levels"? Maybe Bob would have been better served to ditch 3 levels or either and putting them in the other.

You see, I see in the OP where some people actually tried to help Bob, but Bob, in his infinite wisdom, thought he knew what he was doing, and when he found out he didn't, instead of trying to figure out what's wrong, he quit. A free +20 heart isn't going to help Bob, because he'll just keep making the same mistakes, no matter what build he's trying to run. In his case, however, a +3 heart would have been fine: He could remove either the cleric or ranger levels, and invest those levels in which ever one he kept, and been better off, even if he'd still not be better. He could ditch the repeater and go dual wield if he opted to keep the ranger levels, and done himself a world of good. Instead, he rage quit because "this game sucks because I don't know how to build characters".I'm thinking Bob expected to get more than he got because the game doesn't do a very good job of telling players what to expect. Maybe you consider that part of the game, but personally, I consider it a failure on the part of the game if first characters come out as hopeless rerolls more often than not. It shows a lack of intuitiveness on the part of the build system as well as lack of explanation on the part of the game itself. The fact that you ask what research a brand new player did to make a character that wasn't fundamentally broken points this out too. Just how much build research do you think players who are trying out the game are going to do? I expect none, as why invest anything into something you don't even know you will like?

I'm not saying the OP is right, but the game could be much better explained during character creation as well as while playing. If Turbine takes that attitude that players should research the game before expecting to be able to try it, then they deserve to lose potential customers IMO.

[RoberttheBard]

I'm thinking Bob expected to get more than he got because the game doesn't do a very good job of telling players what to expect. Maybe you consider that part of the game, but personally, I consider it a failure on the part of the game if first characters come out as hopeless rerolls more often than not. It shows a lack of intuitiveness on the part of the build system as well as lack of explanation on the part of the game itself. The fact that you ask what research a brand new player did to make a character that wasn't fundamentally broken points this out too. Just how much build research do you think players who are trying out the game are going to do? I expect none, as why invest anything into something you don't even know you will like?

I'm not saying the OP is right, but the game could be much better explained during character creation as well as while playing. If Turbine takes that attitude that players should research the game before expecting to be able to try it, then they deserve to lose potential customers IMO.

That's the rub, isn't it? They don't expect players to research the game, but they make the means to do so available to anyone that chooses to do so. I don't log into a brand new MMO expecting to know everything there is to know, even if it's just brand new to me. I read what's presented, especially on the first time through any game, SP, MP or MMO. If the information I need isn't available in game, and despite what some people seem to think, that's largely the case, then there's the forums and a wiki for advice. Especially with a game that's been around as long as this one has. I get the impression that people are feeling like that because Turbine didn't hold their hand throughout the leveling process, Turbine should be held accountable for their mistakes. I'm feeling like if I want to build a really good character, and I don't have any knowledge on how to go about it, I should probably find the resources that are available to me in order to do so.

[karatemack]

I'm thinking Bob expected to get more than he got because the game doesn't do a very good job of telling players what to expect. Maybe you consider that part of the game, but personally, I consider it a failure on the part of the game if first characters come out as hopeless rerolls more often than not. It shows a lack of intuitiveness on the part of the build system as well as lack of explanation on the part of the game itself. The fact that you ask what research a brand new player did to make a character that wasn't fundamentally broken points this out too. Just how much build research do you think players who are trying out the game are going to do? I expect none, as why invest anything into something you don't even know you will like?

I'm not saying the OP is right, but the game could be much better explained during character creation as well as while playing. If Turbine takes that attitude that players should research the game before expecting to be able to try it, then they deserve to lose potential customers IMO.

I agree with you that DDO is not completely intuitive. And that is one of the things I like the MOST about the game. I find the complex build options, which allow for characters of the same class to function and play completely differently, empowering.

The tooltips provide a lot of functional advice to new players, however I don't believe there is a way to give new players build advice in a concise way. I believe it would help if the pre-made builds were updated to help new players get a "feel" for the game and then, once they have some experience, they can use their free LR heart to "fix" the build. If they later decide multi-class would work better for them, they SHOULD either TR or roll a new character. Think about how long the tutorial would have to be in order to explain (properly explain) the nuances of multi-classing. Would most people sit through a tutorial that long? It is my personal experience that when I'm first learning a new game I prefer a short tutorial to give me the basics and then I want to jump in, make mistakes and figure things out for myself. That's a large portion of the fun. I also suspect that the complexity of build options is what keeps many playing DDO.

[Ligraph]

I agree with you that DDO is not completely intuitive. And that is one of the things I like the MOST about the game. I find the complex build options, which allow for characters of the same class to function and play completely differently, empowering.

The tooltips provide a lot of functional advice to new players, however I don't believe there is a way to give new players build advice in a concise way. I believe it would help if the pre-made builds were updated to help new players get a "feel" for the game and then, once they have some experience, they can use their free LR heart to "fix" the build. If they later decide multi-class would work better for them, they SHOULD either TR or roll a new character. Think about how long the tutorial would have to be in order to explain (properly explain) the nuances of multi-classing. Would most people sit through a tutorial that long? It is my personal experience that when I'm first learning a new game I prefer a short tutorial to give me the basics and then I want to jump in, make mistakes and figure things out for myself. That's a large portion of the fun. I also suspect that the complexity of build options is what keeps many playing DDO.

The tooltips provide information if you know where to look, but let's use melee power for an example. The only way you would find out about it ingame is by hovering over that little icon on the char sheet. For such an important stat, it's extremely hard to find (took me about a month of playing before I found it).

I don't think the tutorials should give someone a awsome build, but it should prevent them from doing things like taking 3 levels of cleric thinking they will get awesome self heals. Paths should definatly be updated, that would go a long way towards helping this. And the "Customize" option should have a link to the Wiki's Game Mechanics page or something similar. I also think newer players should have a way to earn +20 hearts. Not free and unlimited, but a way. Maybe a special quest or area that rewards +20 Hearts if grinded enough, or a system where 1st lifers get a +20 heart a month for 3 months. This way, if someone makes a gimp character, they can either choose to grind out a heart, or wait until they get a (limited) free one.

[karatemack]

The tooltips provide information if you know where to look, but let's use melee power for an example. The only way you would find out about it ingame is by hovering over that little icon on the char sheet. For such an important stat, it's extremely hard to find (took me about a month of playing before I found it).

I don't think the tutorials should give someone a awsome build, but it should prevent them from doing things like taking 3 levels of cleric thinking they will get awesome self heals. Paths should definatly be updated, that would go a long way towards helping this. And the "Customize" option should have a link to the Wiki's Game Mechanics page or something similar. I also think newer players should have a way to earn +20 hearts. Not free and unlimited, but a way. Maybe a special quest or area that rewards +20 Hearts if grinded enough, or a system where 1st lifers get a +20 heart a month for 3 months. This way, if someone makes a gimp character, they can either choose to grind out a heart, or wait until they get a (limited) free one.

That's true, but most melee power comes from enhancements and EDs which can each be reset with plat. There are a few feats however most people building for melee damage would seek those out anyway. If they do miss one, you get a free feat swap at fred and siberys are easy to find. Plus you get a LR heart for free.

I see your point, however, that people who try to multiclass their first life out will have a hard time balancing out their build. I would argue that if their goal is ultimately to play a multiclass build they are going to want to TR at least once or twice anyway if nothing else than for the stat point increase.

I understand where you're coming from, I just don't see the need to give out +20s as a solution when there are already better processes in place which can help players who make mistakes in their first lives.

[Ligraph]

That's true, but most melee power comes from enhancements and EDs which can each be reset with plat. There are a few feats however most people building for melee damage would seek those out anyway. If they do miss one, you get a free feat swap at fred and siberys are easy to find. Plus you get a LR heart for free.

I see your point, however, that people who try to multiclass their first life out will have a hard time balancing out their build. I would argue that if their goal is ultimately to play a multiclass build they are going to want to TR at least once or twice anyway if nothing else than for the stat point increase.

I understand where you're coming from, I just don't see the need to give out +20s as a solution when there are already better processes in place which can help players who make mistakes in their first lives.

I'd agree with you if Paths were decent builds, but since they aren't, it's a lot harder for a new player to build a decent build (although with recent updates giving buffs to pures, it's not so bad). The only reason I would want +20 hearts available is to help people who multiclassed "by accident", thinking they are going to get something they aren't (e.g. 3 Cleric = good self-heals).

If Paths were fixed and better safeguards were put on multiclassing, as well as links to guides/the wiki being put ingame, I wouldn't see a need for +20 HoWs.

EDIT: And if you really mess up a build, 1 Feat swap won't get you anywhere (done that).

[Habreno]

As to the OP's suggestion of free +20 hearts: No. Too abusable.

To fix the underlying issue:
-- Update character paths at creation, for all classes. All paths should be pure 20 in their respective class, with a different focus for each. If this means there's really just two ways to build a character (say, Artificer, for example), then there's only two character paths for that class. Once you select a path, the game should recommend a "best race" or two for that style (with an additional note that Human generally does good with nearly any build). As an example, for a ranged artificer, it might recommend Warforged; for a caster sorcerer, it might recommend Drow.

-- Give new players a free +3 lesser heart (BtC) in addition to the +0 they currently get. This is granted to the first two characters an account creates per server. This will help alleviate some issues with new players invariably messing up and allow for some minor splashes if a player wants to try them. Alternatively, give new players a BTA "heart token", which can be traded for any reincarnation heart. Once again, granted only to the first two characters per server.

-- Give players who have not logged on in some decent time frame (ranging from 8 to 12 months) two BTA "heart tokens"- these can be traded for any reincarnation heart, thus allowing returning players to respec in whichever way they want to. While this will likely often end up being a +20 heart, it might be a TR heart of some sort if the player simply wishes to start a new build.

-- Allow for +0 hearts, and only +0 hearts specifically, to enable race and alignment changes. Renaming these to "Greater Reincarnation" hearts would be confusing (since old "Greater Reincarnation" hearts were basically normal Lesser hearts with the caveat that they upgraded you from 28 to 32 point builds if you were a first life toon that started as 28 but have since purchased or unlocked 32 point builds) but likely best. Yes, this would likely end up increasing the cost of the +0 heart by 100TP. I'm aware of that and disagree with it but you know Turbine will do it.
---- Reincarnation options would end up being:
------ HTR, ITR (grant completely new characters with past life benefits)
------ ETR (takes you to 20 and gives a free lesser respec in addition to a past life benefit)
------ +1, +3, +5, +20 LR (allows for class changes up to X, stat, skill, and feat respec, spellbook changes if applicable). Note there's no more +0 basic heart; this is unfortunate, but rarely is a simple +0 required.
------ GR (must keep same leveling order for classes but enables a full recreation with all possible changes available- race, alignment, stat, skill, feat, spellbook if applicable)

EDIT: Why no GR +X? Balancing factor. At that point all LR hearts would become obsolete.

[Ligraph]

As to the OP's suggestion of free +20 hearts: No. Too abusable.

To fix the underlying issue:
-- Update character paths at creation, for all classes. All paths should be pure 20 in their respective class, with a different focus for each. If this means there's really just two ways to build a character (say, Artificer, for example), then there's only two character paths for that class. Once you select a path, the game should recommend a "best race" or two for that style (with an additional note that Human generally does good with nearly any build). As an example, for a ranged artificer, it might recommend Warforged; for a caster sorcerer, it might recommend Drow.

-- Give new players a free +3 lesser heart (BtC) in addition to the +0 they currently get. This is granted to the first two characters an account creates per server. This will help alleviate some issues with new players invariably messing up and allow for some minor splashes if a player wants to try them. Alternatively, give new players a BTA "heart token", which can be traded for any reincarnation heart. Once again, granted only to the first two characters per server.

-- Give players who have not logged on in some decent time frame (ranging from 8 to 12 months) two BTA "heart tokens"- these can be traded for any reincarnation heart, thus allowing returning players to respec in whichever way they want to. While this will likely often end up being a +20 heart, it might be a TR heart of some sort if the player simply wishes to start a new build.

-- Allow for +0 hearts, and only +0 hearts specifically, to enable race and alignment changes. Renaming these to "Greater Reincarnation" hearts would be confusing (since old "Greater Reincarnation" hearts were basically normal Lesser hearts with the caveat that they upgraded you from 28 to 32 point builds if you were a first life toon that started as 28 but have since purchased or unlocked 32 point builds) but likely best. Yes, this would likely end up increasing the cost of the +0 heart by 100TP. I'm aware of that and disagree with it but you know Turbine will do it.
---- Reincarnation options would end up being:
------ HTR, ITR (grant completely new characters with past life benefits)
------ ETR (takes you to 20 and gives a free lesser respec in addition to a past life benefit)
------ +1, +3, +5, +20 LR (allows for class changes up to X, stat, skill, and feat respec, spellbook changes if applicable). Note there's no more +0 basic heart; this is unfortunate, but rarely is a simple +0 required.
------ GR (must keep same leveling order for classes but enables a full recreation with all possible changes available- race, alignment, stat, skill, feat, spellbook if applicable)

I like this. A lot. Nice compromise, +1. Still would like to see ingame links to the wiki guides though.

[RoberttheBard]

I'd agree with you if Paths were decent builds, but since they aren't, it's a lot harder for a new player to build a decent build (although with recent updates giving buffs to pures, it's not so bad). The only reason I would want +20 hearts available is to help people who multiclassed "by accident", thinking they are going to get something they aren't (e.g. 3 Cleric = good self-heals).

If Paths were fixed and better safeguards were put on multiclassing, as well as links to guides/the wiki being put ingame, I wouldn't see a need for +20 HoWs.

EDIT: And if you really mess up a build, 1 Feat swap won't get you anywhere (done that).

Why would you ever need a +20 heart to eliminate 3 cleric levels? A +3 heart will do that just fine. In the process of removing those three levels, you can fix your feats too, all with a +3. The only reason to ask for free unlimited +20s is to be able to hit the FotM any time it changes.

[Gremmlynn]

That's the rub, isn't it? They don't expect players to research the game, but they make the means to do so available to anyone that chooses to do so. I don't log into a brand new MMO expecting to know everything there is to know, even if it's just brand new to me. I read what's presented, especially on the first time through any game, SP, MP or MMO. If the information I need isn't available in game, and despite what some people seem to think, that's largely the case, then there's the forums and a wiki for advice. Especially with a game that's been around as long as this one has. I get the impression that people are feeling like that because Turbine didn't hold their hand throughout the leveling process, Turbine should be held accountable for their mistakes. I'm feeling like if I want to build a really good character, and I don't have any knowledge on how to go about it, I should probably find the resources that are available to me in order to do so.The forums are primarily filled with the opinions of players. The Wiki isn't even a Turbine run site. Also "expecting to know everything there is to know" is a far cry from "expecting to be able to make a halfway viable character". Sure if one want's to make a really good character one should expect to go the extra mile. But being able to not make a really bad character should be what the game aims for as the plug and play default.

Also, this isn't a philosophical issue. If Turbine is losing customers over this issue, it shouldn't be something they feel is "right". Right and wrong from their perspective should be more results based than anything else. Even if they agree with you that players should be doing research before ever logging in, if their potential customers aren't willing to do that their failure as a business is no less. What they think their customers should be doing is a lot less important than what their potential customers think they should have to do as meeting customer expectations is how one gets them to be customers.

[Gremmlynn]

I agree with you that DDO is not completely intuitive. And that is one of the things I like the MOST about the game. I find the complex build options, which allow for characters of the same class to function and play completely differently, empowering.

The tooltips provide a lot of functional advice to new players, however I don't believe there is a way to give new players build advice in a concise way. I believe it would help if the pre-made builds were updated to help new players get a "feel" for the game and then, once they have some experience, they can use their free LR heart to "fix" the build. If they later decide multi-class would work better for them, they SHOULD either TR or roll a new character. Think about how long the tutorial would have to be in order to explain (properly explain) the nuances of multi-classing. Would most people sit through a tutorial that long? It is my personal experience that when I'm first learning a new game I prefer a short tutorial to give me the basics and then I want to jump in, make mistakes and figure things out for myself. That's a large portion of the fun. I also suspect that the complexity of build options is what keeps many playing DDO.The tutorial that explains that multi-classing should be considered an advanced option could be as short as saying that, though a bit more explanation wouldn't hurt. The game doesn't need to be dumbed down at the top in order to be mistake proofed at the bottom.

[Gremmlynn]

Free respec's up to level 8 or 10 (or whatever is deemed fitting) with an option to respec higher level characters to that level. Basically it would be a respec mechanic that allows one to keep up to whatever amount of xp is deemed fitting to the issue. If that is 100k, for example, any character with up to 100k xp would be able to respec to it's present level, any with more could be respeced up to 100k xp with the remainder lost.

[RoberttheBard]

The forums are primarily filled with the opinions of players. The Wiki isn't even a Turbine run site. Also "expecting to know everything there is to know" is a far cry from "expecting to be able to make a halfway viable character". Sure if one want's to make a really good character one should expect to go the extra mile. But being able to not make a really bad character should be what the game aims for as the plug and play default.

So the forums and wiki should be completely ignored, because they're just the opinions of players? Otherwise, why is that even a point of contention? Are you going to say that the wiki isn't largely correct in the information it provides? Let's look at Bob, again: Bob wants to build a tank in a gaming environment where, barring raids, tanks aren't really used. Since that was the case, and he'd found a repeater, he decided to change up his build, and took ranger levels to augment his repeater. Why? This is the problem with "being able to make a halfway viable character", people assume what it's going to take to make one, and make it, only to find out that it doesn't work, or maybe it does. This is the trial and error phase that leads to the Baskin Robbins section. I know, because in other games, I've had builds featured in their equivalent, and that's how I got them there, trial and error. The irony: Bob is supposed to have been building characters in DnD since it was 3 pamphlets. I say "supposed" because according to the OP, with all that background knowledge at his disposal, he thought 3 levels of cleric was going to make him a good healer? There's no amount of tutorial that's going to fix Bob. If he hasn't learned the basics of character building with all that experience, +20 hearts aren't going to help him either, and frankly, looking at the build presented, +20 hearts aren't required at all. A +3 heart, and bit of time planning will fix that character to be viable.


Also, this isn't a philosophical issue. If Turbine is losing customers over this issue, it shouldn't be something they feel is "right". Right and wrong from their perspective should be more results based than anything else. Even if they agree with you that players should be doing research before ever logging in, if their potential customers aren't willing to do that their failure as a business is no less. What they think their customers should be doing is a lot less important than what their potential customers think they should have to do as meeting customer expectations is how one gets them to be customers.

It's snowing in public locations, and people are threatening to quit. I could go through the forums and link all the "I'm going to quit" threads, but it's a waste of time. I could then proceed to every MMO forum I've ever been either active on, or visited via a link and pull up more than a few threads that run along the same lines as most of the threads here. I could cite an MMO where I not only played for 5 years, but moderated on their forum for 5 years, and point out threads where no updates were the end of the game, and then, once we started getting updates, every single one of them was the last nail in the coffin. It's been more than 5 years since I actively played there, and it's still running. The point? There's no way to guarantee player retention. Some new players will list "It's too hard to make a character" as a reason when really, we all know, it never really was, if you took any time to figure out what you wanted to do with it, and how to go about it. The hardest roles in a trinity based game are tanking and healing. If one wants to start out a brand new game trying one of those, then one should expect to have problems.

I've been playing DnD since it was 3 pamphlets, and I suck at clerics. I not only suck at DnD clerics, but I suck at them in every game I've played that has the class, unless I do something really radical with them. However, I wouldn't expect that a game would change to suit me, or give me an easy out, if I decided to roll one, and found that I still sucked at them. I would expect to do what I've done since I discovered my flaw: Delete them and start over with something I can play. My advice to new players? Roll a DPS class first, and learn the basics. This gives one a chance to figure out what's what in game, and how other classes may function, especially if you're heavy in the PuG scene, or get in a guild that does regular groups for content where a trinity might be desired, if not required. None of that requires a +20 heart. None of that requires a player to sit on the forums for a week trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. It simply requires them to play the game, and pay attention when they're in a position to do so.

My very first toon wasn't a FvS AA, even though that has become my favorite toon to play. My very first toon was a dual wielding rogue. This despite the fact that in NWN, I was building all sorts of really weird characters that not only worked, but were able to solo the hardest content on the munchkin servers I played on. Why? Because I knew, from my NWN and tabletop experience that DDO wasn't like tabletop. I knew I was going to have to figure out what did and didn't work. The majority of this with the same basic experience as Bob, and yet, I'm still here, and Bob, presumably, quit because he couldn't build an effective character. We haven't heard from Bob, we've heard from a guy that wants free unlimited use +20 hearts. All of that to tie right back to your very first line in this post: The forums are primarily filled with the opinions of other players. Paraphrased. So it's the opinion of the OP that, since Bob took three levels of cleric, he should be able to get a +20 heart, when a +3 heart would suffice.

[Anoregon]

As to the OP's suggestion of free +20 hearts: No. Too abusable.

To fix the underlying issue:
-- Update character paths at creation, for all classes. All paths should be pure 20 in their respective class, with a different focus for each. If this means there's really just two ways to build a character (say, Artificer, for example), then there's only two character paths for that class. Once you select a path, the game should recommend a "best race" or two for that style (with an additional note that Human generally does good with nearly any build). As an example, for a ranged artificer, it might recommend Warforged; for a caster sorcerer, it might recommend Drow.

-- Give new players a free +3 lesser heart (BtC) in addition to the +0 they currently get. This is granted to the first two characters an account creates per server. This will help alleviate some issues with new players invariably messing up and allow for some minor splashes if a player wants to try them. Alternatively, give new players a BTA "heart token", which can be traded for any reincarnation heart. Once again, granted only to the first two characters per server.

-- Give players who have not logged on in some decent time frame (ranging from 8 to 12 months) two BTA "heart tokens"- these can be traded for any reincarnation heart, thus allowing returning players to respec in whichever way they want to. While this will likely often end up being a +20 heart, it might be a TR heart of some sort if the player simply wishes to start a new build.

-- Allow for +0 hearts, and only +0 hearts specifically, to enable race and alignment changes. Renaming these to "Greater Reincarnation" hearts would be confusing (since old "Greater Reincarnation" hearts were basically normal Lesser hearts with the caveat that they upgraded you from 28 to 32 point builds if you were a first life toon that started as 28 but have since purchased or unlocked 32 point builds) but likely best. Yes, this would likely end up increasing the cost of the +0 heart by 100TP. I'm aware of that and disagree with it but you know Turbine will do it.
---- Reincarnation options would end up being:
------ HTR, ITR (grant completely new characters with past life benefits)
------ ETR (takes you to 20 and gives a free lesser respec in addition to a past life benefit)
------ +1, +3, +5, +20 LR (allows for class changes up to X, stat, skill, and feat respec, spellbook changes if applicable). Note there's no more +0 basic heart; this is unfortunate, but rarely is a simple +0 required.
------ GR (must keep same leveling order for classes but enables a full recreation with all possible changes available- race, alignment, stat, skill, feat, spellbook if applicable)

EDIT: Why no GR +X? Balancing factor. At that point all LR hearts would become obsolete.

This all seems pretty reasonable. I really like the idea of the new GR heart sort of filling the gap between LR and TR.

[Gauthaag]

As to the OP's suggestion of free +20 hearts: No. Too abusable.

To fix the underlying issue:
-- Update character paths at creation, for all classes. All paths should be pure 20 in their respective class, with a different focus for each. If this means there's really just two ways to build a character (say, Artificer, for example), then there's only two character paths for that class. Once you select a path, the game should recommend a "best race" or two for that style (with an additional note that Human generally does good with nearly any build). As an example, for a ranged artificer, it might recommend Warforged; for a caster sorcerer, it might recommend Drow.

-- Give new players a free +3 lesser heart (BtC) in addition to the +0 they currently get. This is granted to the first two characters an account creates per server. This will help alleviate some issues with new players invariably messing up and allow for some minor splashes if a player wants to try them. Alternatively, give new players a BTA "heart token", which can be traded for any reincarnation heart. Once again, granted only to the first two characters per server.

-- Give players who have not logged on in some decent time frame (ranging from 8 to 12 months) two BTA "heart tokens"- these can be traded for any reincarnation heart, thus allowing returning players to respec in whichever way they want to. While this will likely often end up being a +20 heart, it might be a TR heart of some sort if the player simply wishes to start a new build.

-- Allow for +0 hearts, and only +0 hearts specifically, to enable race and alignment changes. Renaming these to "Greater Reincarnation" hearts would be confusing (since old "Greater Reincarnation" hearts were basically normal Lesser hearts with the caveat that they upgraded you from 28 to 32 point builds if you were a first life toon that started as 28 but have since purchased or unlocked 32 point builds) but likely best. Yes, this would likely end up increasing the cost of the +0 heart by 100TP. I'm aware of that and disagree with it but you know Turbine will do it.
---- Reincarnation options would end up being:
------ HTR, ITR (grant completely new characters with past life benefits)
------ ETR (takes you to 20 and gives a free lesser respec in addition to a past life benefit)
------ +1, +3, +5, +20 LR (allows for class changes up to X, stat, skill, and feat respec, spellbook changes if applicable). Note there's no more +0 basic heart; this is unfortunate, but rarely is a simple +0 required.
------ GR (must keep same leveling order for classes but enables a full recreation with all possible changes available- race, alignment, stat, skill, feat, spellbook if applicable)

EDIT: Why no GR +X? Balancing factor. At that point all LR hearts would become obsolete.

really decent suggestion, that makes sense

[Pnumbra]

Why would you ever need a +20 heart to eliminate 3 cleric levels? A +3 heart will do that just fine. In the process of removing those three levels, you can fix your feats too, all with a +3. The only reason to ask for free unlimited +20s is to be able to hit the FotM any time it changes.

/signed

[Gremmlynn]

So the forums and wiki should be completely ignored, because they're just the opinions of players? Otherwise, why is that even a point of contention? Are you going to say that the wiki isn't largely correct in the information it provides? Let's look at Bob, again: Bob wants to build a tank in a gaming environment where, barring raids, tanks aren't really used. Since that was the case, and he'd found a repeater, he decided to change up his build, and took ranger levels to augment his repeater. Why? This is the problem with "being able to make a halfway viable character", people assume what it's going to take to make one, and make it, only to find out that it doesn't work, or maybe it does. This is the trial and error phase that leads to the Baskin Robbins section. I know, because in other games, I've had builds featured in their equivalent, and that's how I got them there, trial and error. The irony: Bob is supposed to have been building characters in DnD since it was 3 pamphlets. I say "supposed" because according to the OP, with all that background knowledge at his disposal, he thought 3 levels of cleric was going to make him a good healer? There's no amount of tutorial that's going to fix Bob. If he hasn't learned the basics of character building with all that experience, +20 hearts aren't going to help him either, and frankly, looking at the build presented, +20 hearts aren't required at all. A +3 heart, and bit of time planning will fix that character to be viable.I don't care how correct the Wiki may be. It is not an integral part of the game and can go poof at any time it stops being hosted. So not something Turbine should count on as an answer to where their players should get their information. The forums are nearly as bad as much of the information here is contradicted and it is rare where an actual Turbine official points out which is accurate. IMO the game itself should be doing a good enough job of teaching players how to play it that any sort of heart being needed to fix bad builds should be a rarity.

[RoberttheBard]

I don't care how correct the Wiki may be. It is not an integral part of the game and can go poof at any time it stops being hosted. So not something Turbine should count on as an answer to where their players should get their information. The forums are nearly as bad as much of the information here is contradicted and it is rare where an actual Turbine official points out which is accurate. IMO the game itself should be doing a good enough job of teaching players how to play it that any sort of heart being needed to fix bad builds should be a rarity.

...and yet, people every day are running builds from the Baskin Robbins section, and some of these people even denigrate anyone who isn't using one. Turbine can't handwalk people through the character build process. The only way to do so would be to limit what players can do with them. How, exactly, are they supposed to "teach" all the subtle nuances that go into some classes? Learning how to build a character is every bit as much a part of playing this game as running quests.

[Ligraph]

...and yet, people every day are running builds from the Baskin Robbins section, and some of these people even denigrate anyone who isn't using one. Turbine can't handwalk people through the character build process. The only way to do so would be to limit what players can do with them. How, exactly, are they supposed to "teach" all the subtle nuances that go into some classes? Learning how to build a character is every bit as much a part of playing this game as running quests.

The whole reason people are proposing +20 HoWs (I think) is so these new people can learn by doing! It's one of my main turnoffs for trying new builds. It's a very large investment with no guarantee of return (a very low chance of return acually, although char planners + wiki helps a lot, I still don't know how a build will preform). Now if we had a perma-Lamannia or something, I think this would be a non-issue. And since +20 HoWs for noobs is hard to implement without unbalancing other stuff, I think that would be a better way. Another thread though.

[Uska]

Why would you ever need a +20 heart to eliminate 3 cleric levels? A +3 heart will do that just fine. In the process of removing those three levels, you can fix your feats too, all with a +3. The only reason to ask for free unlimited +20s is to be able to hit the FotM any time it changes.

Exactly

[Ligraph]

Exactly

What if someone decides to play *insert the most crazy build you can think of* thinking it will do good at *heal/dps/tank/traps/whatever*. Because they are new, they don't know how to evaluate a build. A Char planner and the wiki will tell them if a build will work (be makable ingame), but it won't tell them how good the build is.

If someone is pushing for +20s that give PLs without a timer or something, then yeah, they probably have ulterior motives. And if someone can think of something that allows new players to experiment with new builds without investing a ton of time (for a new player) into it that isn't a +20 HoW, it would probably be better to go that route. Less contention and less probability of missuse.

[RoberttheBard]

What if someone decides to play *insert the most crazy build you can think of* thinking it will do good at *heal/dps/tank/traps/whatever*. Because they are new, they don't know how to evaluate a build. A Char planner and the wiki will tell them if a build will work (be makable ingame), but it won't tell them how good the build is.

If someone is pushing for +20s that give PLs without a timer or something, then yeah, they probably have ulterior motives. And if someone can think of something that allows new players to experiment with new builds without investing a ton of time (for a new player) into it that isn't a +20 HoW, it would probably be better to go that route. Less contention and less probability of missuse.

That system already exists, playing the game. I read the topic title, I read the OP, and I didn't come away feeling like I needed to have +20 hearts with unlimited uses for free. In fact, given the example in the OP, I wondered why anyone would even need a +20 heart for:

1. Removing three levels of cleric. A +3 heart would do that just fine.
2. On a level 12 character. What's the plan for the extra 8 levels again?

So the whole post comes across as "I want to play the FotM, but I don't want to relevel every time". Good, bad or indifferent, it's not needed.

[Kompera_Oberon]

So the forums and wiki should be completely ignored, because they're just the opinions of players?

The strong point being made here, in case you missed it, is that the owners of this game should not rely on a third party site or even their own forums in lieu of actually managing to provide their players with the information needed to play the game successfully without resorting to those options.

[RoberttheBard]

The strong point being made here, in case you missed it, is that the owners of this game should not rely on a third party site or even their own forums in lieu of actually managing to provide their players with the information needed to play the game successfully without resorting to those options.

...and for every "I can't build a viable character, I'm taking my ball and going home" we have how many people that stay? I had the same basic experience with the game that Bob did, from the OP, and yet, I'm still here, and I'm building characters that are not only viable, but effective w/out resorting to copy/pasting builds from the Baskin Robbins section. I did take the time to read what is presented in game. Can it be better? Sure. Does that equate Turbine passing out free unlimited use +20 hearts? No, resoundingly no.

Also, for those that are coming across like this is the only MMO they play: Every MMO I've ever played has a character build section in their forums. In some of those MMOs the builds are fairly limited, and gearing and tactics are the focus, but they all have them. Some of the SP games I've played have character build sections as well. The fact is, there's no way to hand walk a player through the build process here. There are no "default viable builds", even with the Baskin Robbins section running. Even if one chose to run one of the current paths, you can leave it at any time, and if you're reading through the enhancements available to a specific class, you may find that you want to. That information is available in game, but, it takes time from the "Hulk smash" mentality, because it requires one to actually read what's available and what it does. Tell me though, what good is a +20 heart going to do for a guy that won't open the Enhancement menu and read that information? So they're going to spend all their time rolling back and forth on the LR, changing the build over and over, and people won't quit because character building is hard, when they're initially going to quit because character building is hard?

[Brac]

That system already exists, playing the game. I read the topic title, I read the OP, and I didn't come away feeling like I needed to have +20 hearts with unlimited uses for free. In fact, given the example in the OP, I wondered why anyone would even need a +20 heart for:

1. Removing three levels of cleric. A +3 heart would do that just fine.
2. On a level 12 character. What's the plan for the extra 8 levels again?

So the whole post comes across as "I want to play the FotM, but I don't want to relevel every time". Good, bad or indifferent, it's not needed.

I don't believe you read the OP completely. You have misquoted it multiple times in order to skew your point of view. you placed assumptions on Bob as statements made that weren't, and did not even reference other parts of the OP that refute you points. You may have skimmed it at best. If you did read it then you did not comprehend.

Many other people seemed to understand the concept. DDO is unique in the unfixable character errors that can be made. The Bob example was how it effects new players. It does not mean literally that we need a way to remove 3 cleric levels. Basing your counter argument on that point is ignorant. Please read the OP again, then maybe a couple of responses. Try to comprehend the entire discussion and come back and post again. You don't have to agree, but at least try to show that you understand the discussion as a whole.

[Gremmlynn]

...and yet, people every day are running builds from the Baskin Robbins section, and some of these people even denigrate anyone who isn't using one. Turbine can't handwalk people through the character build process. The only way to do so would be to limit what players can do with them. How, exactly, are they supposed to "teach" all the subtle nuances that go into some classes? Learning how to build a character is every bit as much a part of playing this game as running quests.There is a difference between an unpolished character that may be a bit short in the subtle nuance department than a completely nonviable character. Were not talking 100% optimal here, just playable.

Also, the game does a pretty good job of teaching players the quest running basics while playing. It could do a lot better in the character creation and leveling processes.

[RoberttheBard]

I don't believe you read the OP completely. You have misquoted it multiple times in order to skew your point of view. you placed assumptions on Bob as statements made that weren't, and did not even reference other parts of the OP that refute you points. You may have skimmed it at best. If you did read it then you did not comprehend.

Many other people seemed to understand the concept. DDO is unique in the unfixable character errors that can be made. The Bob example was how it effects new players. It does not mean literally that we need a way to remove 3 cleric levels. Basing your counter argument on that point is ignorant. Please read the OP again, then maybe a couple of responses. Try to comprehend the entire discussion and come back and post again. You don't have to agree, but at least try to show that you understand the discussion as a whole.

By many, you mean the 5 or 6 that also want free +20 hearts with unlimited uses? However, since you are the OP, you can provide that much needed insight into just why someone with a level 12 character needs a free +20 heart to fix it. I'm really curious as to how that math works, if it's not just a case of "I want to play FotM for free w/out leveling it back up, and this is as good an excuse to ask for it as any".

[Gremmlynn]

By many, you mean the 5 or 6 that also want free +20 hearts with unlimited uses? However, since you are the OP, you can provide that much needed insight into just why someone with a level 12 character needs a free +20 heart to fix it. I'm really curious as to how that math works, if it's not just a case of "I want to play FotM for free w/out leveling it back up, and this is as good an excuse to ask for it as any". How about free respecs with a 400k xp limit, that's 10th level for a first life and 7+ for a third? Anything above that is lost. Would seem a lot less painful to someone who is minimally invested in the game to me. As well as nice for those who are invested, but make a bad decision. But not really exploitable.

The whole "live with your mistakes" mindset just doesn't seem a good way to retain customers to me.

[RoberttheBard]

There is a difference between an unpolished character that may be a bit short in the subtle nuance department than a completely nonviable character. Were not talking 100% optimal here, just playable.

Also, the game does a pretty good job of teaching players the quest running basics while playing. It could do a lot better in the character creation and leveling processes.

...and if people take the time to read what things do as they level, they can build a character that will function, even if it's not top tier raid ready. There's that much information available, in game. The OP isn't about a toon that didn't work, the OP's anecdotal character thought it wasn't contributing. We have no details, just that. So is it because he wasn't topping the kill count list? Because that's the usual measuring stick used to evaluate a build around here. Which FotM builds was he comparing himself to, if any? There's a whole lot of real estate between "not viable" and "not leading the kill count". None of which, of course, explains the need for a +20 heart to fix a level 12 character. If they can get the build to high enough level to justify a +20 heart, they can just TR out of the build. That means they have to relevel, but that's how they're going to learn how to build, not getting to 20 once, and then changing the build every day.

[RoberttheBard]

How about free respecs with a 400k xp limit, that's 10th level for a first life and 7+ for a third? Anything above that is lost. Would seem a lot less painful to someone who is minimally invested in the game to me. As well as nice for those who are invested, but make a bad decision. But not really exploitable.

The whole "live with your mistakes" mindset just doesn't seem a good way to retain customers to me.

Cutting a source of income for Turbine doesn't seem to be the best solution either. All those "customers" getting something for nothing aren't going to be doing anything for the bottom line, and ever more believe, if they don't have to buy something, they're not going to. In so far as I know, buying the Old Sully's Grog with the points you earn for the first time favor gives your account two more character slots. It's been a long time since I was in that boat, so I don't really remember, but that gives someone with a first life level 12 character another option: Roll a new toon, and park that one until you figure out what you're going to do with it.

[Gremmlynn]

Cutting a source of income for Turbine doesn't seem to be the best solution either. All those "customers" getting something for nothing aren't going to be doing anything for the bottom line, and ever more believe, if they don't have to buy something, they're not going to. In so far as I know, buying the Old Sully's Grog with the points you earn for the first time favor gives your account two more character slots. It's been a long time since I was in that boat, so I don't really remember, but that gives someone with a first life level 12 character another option: Roll a new toon, and park that one until you figure out what you're going to do with it.Um, no. It gets you a rez cake.

Why so down on player friendly options? It seems you think the game should actively try to weed out "undesirables", rather than trying to get players invested to the point they want to spend that kind of money.

[RoberttheBard]

Um, no. It gets you a rez cake.

Why so down on player friendly options? It seems you think the game should actively try to weed out "undesirables", rather than trying to get players invested to the point they want to spend that kind of money.

How is a free +20 heart with unlimited uses a "player friendly" option? Especially in the scenario laid out in the OP? Why so eager to jump on that bandwagon? What is it, exactly, that a level 12 character needs a +20 heart for? The scenario given is easily covered with a +3 heart, and nobody has to give them away for free. Seems to me it's just a few people standing there waiting for handouts.

As to what I believe, I believe there's enough information that if a person takes the time to read it while they're rolling/leveling up, they can build a viable character. How many tries did it take you? How many +20 hearts did you need before you "got it right"? Because to read this thread, if I'd never played, I'd think it's a whole lot harder than it actually is.