DDO best played solo/duo

[janave]

It would be nice if devs would consider each class pass from a 6-12 party member coop angle (not asking for more sync lever pulls here).

1-2 players - still kinda fun (especially if at least 1 of them is not a Feature of the Devs's latest and finest).
3-6 - are forced to pike in a full party in most quests.


If at least 1 player has massive aoe spam, its almost pointlessly boring to play linear dungeons, or arena/assault style quests.

ty
bb

[PermaBanned]

Considering they're ~half way through the class passes, the advice is coming a bit late.

Even if the Devs had taken that approach from the start of the class passes, I suspect they'd already lost too many group-play focused players to their {seeming} focus on increased soloability and {seeming} reduction of team-centric quest crafting to get a positive result from the game's current community.

[burlicconi]

That's is very similar that I was suggesting to Turbine- to make new difficulty level, something like party level, which would be more, more difficult to play. Trap damage, monster HP, number of monsters, all this need to be increased if we want to all party members have their share in joy.

As it is, 5 members of party can hike while only on can finish the quest. Enhancement pass made 95% quest very easy to finish and it should be "fixed". I most of the time play in static 3-4 men party, and heroic quests are joke now, only EE can be fun...

[Kriogen]

...
If at least 1 player has massive aoe spam, its almost pointlessly boring to play linear dungeons, or arena/assault style quests.
...
Whats wrong with easy XP and loot?

[burlicconi]

Whats wrong with easy XP and loot?

it's not matter of easy XP and loot, it's matter of how easy quests became. If you are playing the group with 6 people, you should not expecting to solo entire dungeon, you should tend to develop some kind of tactic or so...

And, loot is just reward, true fun is in playing quests...

[FranOhmsford]

That's is very similar that I was suggesting to Turbine- to make new difficulty level, something like party level, which would be more, more difficult to play. Trap damage, monster HP, number of monsters, all this need to be increased if we want to all party members have their share in joy.

As it is, 5 members of party can hike while only on can finish the quest. Enhancement pass made 95% quest very easy to finish and it should be "fixed". I most of the time play in static 3-4 men party, and heroic quests are joke now, only EE can be fun...

How would that work exactly?

Would we go back to the Cleric being nothing more than a Healbot, the Rogue only being there for Traps, the Bard a Buffbot etc.?
How about the poor tank who just holds down one button to block and presses a 2nd button once every 6 seconds to maintain initmidate while a couple of DPS beat on the mob's back?
Or the Wizards who absolutely HATED being CC Bots?

Or would it be 2 Major DPS toons with massive defenses doing all the work because everyone else is simply incapable of making a contribution due to mobs insane HPs, Saves, PRR etc.?

Also think about the guy who wants to play a Tank for instance but no-one will play with him because he's new and unknown while all the groups already have their go to Tanks!
Think about the Enchantment Specced Wizard who's told to DPS even though his DPS is a Joke because "We already have a CC Bot" or even worse can't even get into the Group in the first place!

We don't all have perfect Static Groups to run in and even then think of the guy who really wanted to play a Cleric but is stuck playing a Rogue because someone else is playing a Cleric!

We asked for lesser classes to be buffed so that we could contribute BUT the Devs did what they always do and went too far. Then the round of nerfs came and again they went too far, and again, and again!
We keep asking for Balance but what we always get is imbalance of a different kind!

[Powskier]

their balance is way off for Party fun.

Way to much damage or not enough...no skills work in ddo ,unless you are built up 2-3 lives of skill wirth w stacked cr^p stickin out our pack back,fatbacks.

Regular enemies ,maybe more like bosses . . .but not boss damage, quite. So we can engage and enjoy a battle maybe?.

..this one shot ,kill or be killed, gets old quick...hence my absence for extended time

D&D inherently was about the intricacy of combat- we don't even have a cool alternate weapon swing to use ! all our alternate visuals r special attacks , usually feats or class enhance.

Uh ,u want players to run this game 20zillion hours w the same lame swing on every toon? ..and 2 weapon is almost a joke,fun but a joke..to bad, that twf looks cool swingin.

There is no direction in ddo anymore for a while..adding new packs to sell is nice; uh ddo is separating the community to point where grouping is strictly new content or a select few favorites...but numbers r off from the start... poorige is to hot or to cold;just right not found.
I'd start by slowin down the whole thing..shat is flyin so fast ,u cant really enjoy what u see r now.

Group up in your basement w some neighbors and some 20 siders...way more fun!

[burlicconi]

How would that work exactly?

Would we go back to the Cleric being nothing more than a Healbot, the Rogue only being there for Traps, the Bard a Buffbot etc.?
How about the poor tank who just holds down one button to block and presses a 2nd button once every 6 seconds to maintain initmidate while a couple of DPS beat on the mob's back?
Or the Wizards who absolutely HATED being CC Bots?

Or would it be 2 Major DPS toons with massive defenses doing all the work because everyone else is simply incapable of making a contribution due to mobs insane HPs, Saves, PRR etc.?

Also think about the guy who wants to play a Tank for instance but no-one will play with him because he's new and unknown while all the groups already have their go to Tanks!
Think about the Enchantment Specced Wizard who's told to DPS even though his DPS is a Joke because "We already have a CC Bot" or even worse can't even get into the Group in the first place!

We don't all have perfect Static Groups to run in and even then think of the guy who really wanted to play a Cleric but is stuck playing a Rogue because someone else is playing a Cleric!

We asked for lesser classes to be buffed so that we could contribute BUT the Devs did what they always do and went too far. Then the round of nerfs came and again they went too far, and again, and again!
We keep asking for Balance but what we always get is imbalance of a different kind!

This arguments are just the arguments I was speaking of! Thank you for detailed explanation.

As I said, normal/hard/elite should remain as they are now, but new difficulty setting is desireable. DD should be role play game, if you ever played in group you know what it should mean. So, every player should have some primary role, tank for tanking, healer for healing, trapper for traps (not only for traps, of course).

If you want to have situation that all classes are soloable, that's ok, but it is not original DD. What's the fun when you play in a group of 6 and everyone can solo quest? Maybe killer count win? But, wait, then we all should pick max DPS builds, right?

If you want to be soloable, then you will be just fine with current settings. But, if you have static group like me (and I sure that good share of players have static group), then you should have more challenging quests. Why to pick rogues when they need tank to do DPS and rogues shouldn't be able to self heal? Why pick warchanter when swashbuckler is much more DPS. Why choose cleric when any other class have more DPS? Why choose fighter when barb is better DPS?

I think we agree that there must be two groups of quest settings- 'solo' difficulty and 'group' diffculty (dungeon scaling is not solution now!). That's the easiest way that current game can be saved without breaking 'I can solo quest' rule.

Why I say saved- that's because my group is based of former PnP players and we all agree that difficulty is much, much easier with every update. On the top of that we have 'rule' that every class should be soloable, which simply should not ne true by the very core of DD.

And if you think that playing in group is boring, because you are not able to solo the quest, play some games like Baldur's Gate or so, and check how every player have his own fun playing certain role in group...

[Chai]

How would that work exactly?

Would we go back to the Cleric being nothing more than a Healbot, the Rogue only being there for Traps, the Bard a Buffbot etc.?
How about the poor tank who just holds down one button to block and presses a 2nd button once every 6 seconds to maintain initmidate while a couple of DPS beat on the mob's back?
Or the Wizards who absolutely HATED being CC Bots?

Or would it be 2 Major DPS toons with massive defenses doing all the work because everyone else is simply incapable of making a contribution due to mobs insane HPs, Saves, PRR etc.?

Also think about the guy who wants to play a Tank for instance but no-one will play with him because he's new and unknown while all the groups already have their go to Tanks!
Think about the Enchantment Specced Wizard who's told to DPS even though his DPS is a Joke because "We already have a CC Bot" or even worse can't even get into the Group in the first place!

We don't all have perfect Static Groups to run in and even then think of the guy who really wanted to play a Cleric but is stuck playing a Rogue because someone else is playing a Cleric!

We asked for lesser classes to be buffed so that we could contribute BUT the Devs did what they always do and went too far. Then the round of nerfs came and again they went too far, and again, and again!
We keep asking for Balance but what we always get is imbalance of a different kind!

During the entire history of this game, anyone who was playing a cleric as only a healbot was playing half the class. Same with rogue only being for traps. Im not saying people didn't choose to play classes like this, but any claim that this was NEEDED - is false. No perfect static group was ever needed to play DDO.

Theres still a ton of confusion where people believe forced cooperation has to equal trinity tank-heal-DPS style gaming where characters play very isolated roles and cannot delve into anything else. This has been proven false in every era of DDO. There even used to be a trend of posting all same class quest and raid completions.

[Mryal]

This arguments are just the arguments I was speaking of! Thank you for detailed explanation.

As I said, normal/hard/elite should remain as they are now, but new difficulty setting is desireable. DD should be role play game, if you ever played in group you know what it should mean. So, every player should have some primary role, tank for tanking, healer for healing, trapper for traps (not only for traps, of course).

If you want to have situation that all classes are soloable, that's ok, but it is not original DD. What's the fun when you play in a group of 6 and everyone can solo quest? Maybe killer count win? But, wait, then we all should pick max DPS builds, right?

If you want to be soloable, then you will be just fine with current settings. But, if you have static group like me (and I sure that good share of players have static group), then you should have more challenging quests. Why to pick rogues when they need tank to do DPS and rogues shouldn't be able to self heal? Why pick warchanter when swashbuckler is much more DPS. Why choose cleric when any other class have more DPS? Why choose fighter when barb is better DPS?

I think we agree that there must be two groups of quest settings- 'solo' difficulty and 'group' diffculty (dungeon scaling is not solution now!). That's the easiest way that current game can be saved without breaking 'I can solo quest' rule.

Why I say saved- that's because my group is based of former PnP players and we all agree that difficulty is much, much easier with every update. On the top of that we have 'rule' that every class should be soloable, which simply should not ne true by the very core of DD.

And if you think that playing in group is boring, because you are not able to solo the quest, play some games like Baldur's Gate or so, and check how every player have his own fun playing certain role in group...

The last update's content is, from my experience, much more enjoyable in a balanced group (on elite).I think turbine will aim for that on new Legendary content, one hint torwards that is the changes to Intimidate on the last update, i was gladly able to intim mobs away from the squishy members on LE shroud flaggin quests on my SNB Paladin, and we also had an effective healer to keep me alive, i enjoyed doing that.I really wish they keep the difficulty in the new quests.Even thought people are alredy complaining that they cant properly solo on other threads.

Of course, its that way for us, but it may not be the same for those who 'rightfully' got a bunch of free past lives trought duplicating otto boxes, or by abusing mischevous schemes to gain free exp while ETRing, or skipped every quest by jumping trought scenario that obviously wasnt supposed to be jumped and looted chests before they were supposed to be avaiable, but not everyone enjoys that sort of playstyle.

[Mryal]

During the entire history of this game, anyone who was playing a cleric as only a healbot was playing half the class. Same with rogue only being for traps. Im not saying people didn't choose to play classes like this, but any claim that this was NEEDED - is false. No perfect static group was ever needed to play DDO.

Couldnt be more right.The magic in the game is you can literally build anything you want, what really happens is a lack of creativity in people, that only wish to build self sustainable dps characters.Whats funny is most of the self sustain they could achieve is not enough for the newest content, so they are complaining a lot lately :P
OH, rogues dont even disable traps anymore, that lowers dps and kill count.Last night i had to clear traps on my arti on a pug tempest because the rogue that joined before me ran past all of em without even trying to search!

[burlicconi]

During the entire history of this game, anyone who was playing a cleric as only a healbot was playing half the class. Same with rogue only being for traps. Im not saying people didn't choose to play classes like this, but any claim that this was NEEDED - is false. No perfect static group was ever needed to play DDO.

Theres still a ton of confusion where people believe forced cooperation has to equal trinity tank-heal-DPS style gaming where characters play very isolated roles and cannot delve into anything else. This has been proven false in every era of DDO. There even used to be a trend of posting all same class quest and raid completions.

As a big fan of pure classes, I welcomed enhencement pass for rogues and clerics- clerics can do serious damage while rogues got pretty damage boost with new enhancements. That's because rogues are not only for traps and clerics are not only for heals. Every class must have it's own way to do various kind of DPS, healing, tanking, ranged etc...

My party and me are playing 3rd reincarnation, we never had tank, because we simply didn't want. By playing in party means that if you are primary healer in group (as I am as druid), sometimes you need to just watch health bar of others. You should have your own roles, make tactics and play as a team.

But, nowadays, with this settings, playing in group means that you will be bored until 16+ lvls, because new lifer(and begginer in DDO) Deepwood stalker on lvl 12 is one shoot killer. And others have much more DPS due to better equipment or so... Only way that be can be killed is if rookie runs into killing trap and we then try to save his SS. Quest are rally joke...

I remember what fun was to play Wiz king, we had troubles on hard (3-4 years ago), but now every one of us can solo it... What a big aprt of fun is dropped now...

[burlicconi]

Couldnt be more right.The magic in the game is you can literally build anything you want, what really happens is a lack of creativity in people, that only wish to build self sustainable dps characters.Whats funny is most of the self sustain they could achieve is not enough for the newest content, so they are complaining a lot lately :P
OH, rogues dont even disable traps anymore, that lowers dps and kill count.Last night i had to clear traps on my arti on a pug tempest because the rogue that joined before me ran past all of em without even trying to search!

Yeah, lame... But evasion means no trap damage, scrolls means heals, yuu just need to concentrate of DPS...

[Mryal]

As a big fan of pure classes, I welcomed enhencement pass for rogues and clerics- clerics can do serious damage while rogues got pretty damage boost with new enhancements. That's because rogues are not only for traps and clerics are not only for heals. Every class must have it's own way to do various kind of DPS, healing, tanking, ranged etc...

My party and me are playing 3rd reincarnation, we never had tank, because we simply didn't want. By playing in party means that if you are primary healer in group (as I am as druid), sometimes you need to just watch health bar of others. You should have your own roles, make tactics and play as a team.

But, nowadays, with this settings, playing in group means that you will be bored until 16+ lvls, because new lifer(and begginer in DDO) Deepwood stalker on lvl 12 is one shoot killer. And others have much more DPS due to better equipment or so... Only way that be can be killed is if rookie runs into killing trap and we then try to save his SS. Quest are rally joke...

I remember what fun was to play Wiz king, we had troubles on hard (3-4 years ago), but now every one of us can solo it... What a big aprt of fun is dropped now...

Nah.Maybe as an experienced player, but as a new player, no way you can solo all the way trought heroic unless youre playing on norm/hard.Heck, ive player for almost six years now and ive had a lot of trouble runing trought heroic nowadays on elite as a duo (i was caster druid), champions are a much bigger menance on heroic than they are on epic.
Specialy if you consider that a new player will likely make mistakes when building a character, even if small ones.

[Kriogen]

it's not matter of easy XP and loot, it's matter of how easy quests became. If you are playing the group with 6 people, you should not expecting to solo entire dungeon, you should tend to develop some kind of tactic or so...

And, loot is just reward, true fun is in playing quests...
Never worked in DDO, not even in 2006, at start.

Thing is, that in many/most other MMO games, the difference between new(ish), flavor vs hardcore min-maxers is not very big. This is by "default", you just can't. Not many options to pick and even if there are its for something small, like +1% more damage. Can't make a mistake, but also can't make it better, different. All chars are "clones".

In DDO options exist. Even if you take a single class build, lets say Fighter, one player could pick Power Attack, the other one Skill Focus:Swim. Who will slay more kobolds, "swimmer" or "power dude"? OK, a bit over the top ... but maybe not.

You can have what you want, but only if you are in a group of equals, players that have the same "power level". You need to find "birds of the feather" or how you say it in english. Can do, but not in random PUG.

[nokowi]

How would that work exactly?

Would we go back to the Cleric being nothing more than a Healbot, the Rogue only being there for Traps, the Bard a Buffbot etc.?
How about the poor tank who just holds down one button to block and presses a 2nd button once every 6 seconds to maintain initmidate while a couple of DPS beat on the mob's back?
Or the Wizards who absolutely HATED being CC Bots?

Or would it be 2 Major DPS toons with massive defenses doing all the work because everyone else is simply incapable of making a contribution due to mobs insane HPs, Saves, PRR etc.?

Also think about the guy who wants to play a Tank for instance but no-one will play with him because he's new and unknown while all the groups already have their go to Tanks!
Think about the Enchantment Specced Wizard who's told to DPS even though his DPS is a Joke because "We already have a CC Bot" or even worse can't even get into the Group in the first place!

We don't all have perfect Static Groups to run in and even then think of the guy who really wanted to play a Cleric but is stuck playing a Rogue because someone else is playing a Cleric!

We asked for lesser classes to be buffed so that we could contribute BUT the Devs did what they always do and went too far. Then the round of nerfs came and again they went too far, and again, and again!
We keep asking for Balance but what we always get is imbalance of a different kind!

It's a simple as having class differences and class synergies.

Imagine a bard song that actually mattered, and that you didn't already have through some other means.

Imagine that players couldn't fully heal with one button, and cleric or pally aura boosted healing amplification.

In a well designed game, not all contributions need to be dps.

Do we have this: no!

Dev's have been trying to balance DPS for all toons, and have generally reduced differences between classes (and thus the possibility for synergies) by borrowing things from other classes and giving them to other classes.

We need more things like Druid Earthquake, where a class has a unique contribution.

Those who spell doom and gloom (we can't go back to waiting for a cleric), don't understand there is a difference between a penny and a hundred dollar bill (there are things between these extremes).

[FranOhmsford]

This arguments are just the arguments I was speaking of! Thank you for detailed explanation.

As I said, normal/hard/elite should remain as they are now, but new difficulty setting is desireable. DD should be role play game, if you ever played in group you know what it should mean. So, every player should have some primary role, tank for tanking, healer for healing, trapper for traps (not only for traps, of course).

In PnP I played in Groups and as a Cleric I healed where necessary but ALSO meleed right alongside everyone else!

We were ALL Capable of taking on mobs!

Of course we didn't come across mobs anywhere near as powerful as those we face in DDO - Kobolds didn't shoot Lightning Bolts at us at Lvl 3!

In PnP I aslo soloed quite a bit {well Duo'd with the DM playing a character too actually as it was just the two of us!}.


If you want to have situation that all classes are soloable, that's ok, but it is not original DD. What's the fun when you play in a group of 6 and everyone can solo quest? Maybe killer count win? But, wait, then we all should pick max DPS builds, right?

Actually it IS original D&D!
They released solo specific packs for players who didn't have a group to play with!

The most popular Quests in DDO are those where Soloing in a Group is fully catered for - I can't believe I'm saying this as I absolutely LOATHE Wiz King but it is easily the most popular quest in DDO for a REASON!

Shadow Crypt is the same - The standard run for Shadow Crypt is Solo 12 Gear, the second run for Shadow Crypt is Duo with both going off in different directions.
Everyone else in group can just sit at the start till the altar is usable!

VoN 3 is an exception because it is a one way linear quest but even then you'll find the stronger players belt off completely solo, sometimes ignoring opts because they know one of the guys behind them will get it!


If you want to be soloable, then you will be just fine with current settings. But, if you have static group like me (and I sure that good share of players have static group), then you should have more challenging quests. Why to pick rogues when they need tank to do DPS and rogues shouldn't be able to self heal? Why pick warchanter when swashbuckler is much more DPS. Why choose cleric when any other class have more DPS? Why choose fighter when barb is better DPS?

Static Groups have a huge advantage over everyone else - The game can seem pretty easy when you run with a group of friends in a perfect Group BUT When was D&D PnP ever hard for a Static Group?
By Hard I mean multiple Deaths! DDO is far far harder than PnP ever was and it really is astonishing to see supposed PnP players complaining that DDO is too easy when what they're really complaining about is that DDO is too QUICK!
There's a big difference between Quick and Easy - PnP Games regularly lasted years but DDO quests last at most an hour!


I think we agree that there must be two groups of quest settings- 'solo' difficulty and 'group' diffculty (dungeon scaling is not solution now!). That's the easiest way that current game can be saved without breaking 'I can solo quest' rule.[/QUOTE

I agree - There should be a Party setting.
BUT
The Player Base and by this I mean the Ubers all rebelled against that type of Playstyle in DDO - They didn't want the Holy Trinity {which btw has nothing whatsoever to do with PnP and is from other MMOs!} and indeed attacked anyone who played a Holy Trinity style Build that could only do one thing!
Barbs with no Self-Healing - Blacklisted!
Clerics who just Healed - Called Pikers!
Rogues who were specced for Traps - Why you no DPS Build Assassin!
Rangers who only used their Bows - Laughed at!

[QUOTE=burlicconi;5765025]Why I say saved- that's because my group is based of former PnP players and we all agree that difficulty is much, much easier with every update. On the top of that we have 'rule' that every class should be soloable, which simply should not ne true by the very core of DD.

So you play against your own wishes?

You have a rule that contradicts your own wishes?

Uh?

Oh and sorry but no - Archons Trial, Devils Details, ToEE etc. are distinctly HARDER than previous packs - That's simply not up for debate!


And if you think that playing in group is boring, because you are not able to solo the quest, play some games like Baldur's Gate or so, and check how every player have his own fun playing certain role in group...

I'd have happily carried on playing my Battle Cleric if I could have but no I couldn't solo the quests and therefore wasn't wanted in Groups!
Worse because I couldn't find Groups I simply couldn't run the quests I needed to run!

I'm sorry but DDO NEEDS to be Soloable because Groups aren't always there!

A Party Setting is something I can get behind for those Static Groups but it should have it's own set of Rewards that mean absolutely nothing to players who don't run on that setting!
Say Items that are set up so they can only be used in that Setting!
And it should ABSOLUTELY REQUIRE a Group {even if that means synchronised Lever pulling or required splitting up mechanics!}.

[RoberttheBard]

It's a simple as having class differences and class synergies.

Imagine a bard song that actually mattered, and that you didn't already have through some other means.

Imagine that players couldn't fully heal with one button, and cleric or pally aura boosted healing amplification.

In a well designed game, not all contributions need to be dps.

Do we have this: no!

Dev's have been trying to balance DPS for all toons, and have generally reduced differences between classes (and thus the possibility for synergies) by borrowing things from other classes and giving them to other classes.

We need more things like Druid Earthquake, where a class has a unique contribution.

Those who spell doom and gloom (we can't go back to waiting for a cleric), don't understand there is a difference between a penny and a hundred dollar bill (there are things between these extremes).

The problem being that we had that, once. I know all of my Divines were in on Stealth mode, because despite being divine, I wasn't exactly set up as a healbot. There's nothing more annoying than logging in and getting 15 whispers for "come heal us", when you're actually set up as an AA and DPSing. With the addendum that my initial plan was to be a "support healer", but it wasn't to be a nurse, so I maybe didn't have Empower Healing, or SF Conjuration. I maybe had Empower, which works, but that didn't mean I wanted to blow through all my sps keeping the group alive, only to have members attempt to sell me sp pots they got as a drop. You see, this is why we're where we're at, partially. Then there was the BYOH/be self sufficient thing. So while this may be a dev thing, it's not entirely on them. These forums were blowing up with "people aren't self sufficient enough" in the not too distant past, and this is what led us to where we are as much as anything else.

[Strider1963]

Im sure a lot of people here remember when we needed a balanced party to complete most of the harder heroic quests. Then came MOTU and the power creep began. The uber powergamers wanted more self healing so they wouldn't have to wait for a healer, or a rogue, to join their party. Well, they got what they asked for and now this is what the games has become. All the classes were buffed, all the random loot was buffed and now almost anyone can solo what used to be extrememly difficult heroic quests and the power players can solo most EE quests. And the funny thing is that people say everythings too easy but then change their mind when a certain new quest becomes a little too tough, or takes longer than they would like it too (e.g. people whined about the legendary shroud portals insalne hitpoints so the devs just nerfed it to accomadate. Everyone wants everything THEIR way and that can never be.

[FranOhmsford]

It's a simple as having class differences and class synergies.

Imagine a bard song that actually mattered, and that you didn't already have through some other means.

Bard songs do matter to some of us - Those of us who are on the cusp of the requirements for the content we're playing.

The problem you're outlying is that many players have worked out ways to get over that cusp for EVERYTHING!


Imagine that players couldn't fully heal with one button, and cleric or pally aura boosted healing amplification.

Heal Amp is one of the biggest mistakes Turbine ever made!

They've tried to fix it but it's still over the top and Clerics these days tend to Over-Heal!


In a well designed game, not all contributions need to be dps.

Do we have this: no!

Dev's have been trying to balance DPS for all toons, and have generally reduced differences between classes (and thus the possibility for synergies) by borrowing things from other classes and giving them to other classes.

Like what?

Multiple Classes in PnP had access to the same Spells - This has been replicated in DDO but not as a later thing - It was done at the START!

Artis got a whole slew of their own Spells no-one else had access to.
Druids got less but still some.
Warlocks even got a couple - I'd love my Radiant Aura to work like ES Aura btw!


We need more things like Druid Earthquake, where a class has a unique contribution.

Earthquake?!?
NO! Just NO!
Earthquake should be available to Clerics and FvSs just like it was in PnP!


Those who spell doom and gloom (we can't go back to waiting for a cleric), don't understand there is a difference between a penny and a hundred dollar bill (there are things between these extremes).

Turbine unfortunately deal in Extremes - We've gone over this again and again every time there's a buff or a nerf - Turbine always goes too far!

I didn't mind waiting for a Cleric back in the day btw - The move to IP is when this game really changed because no Clerics would ever join anyone who was waiting, In fact NO-ONE at all would join unless you were already in the quest!

We had to learn to Solo because otherwise we'd never get anything done!
The Power Players were always miles ahead - This hasn't changed!
So now everyone can Solo Heroic Elites and the Power Players are angry because it's not just for them anymore!

[Darkmits]

Whats wrong with easy XP and loot?It's a problem if xp and loot isn't what you're after but a side bonus. I can understand that it's a totally alien concept to you, but some players play for the immersion and the story, not for the stats.

The reason why people pike or just run without attacking in groups of 3 to 6 is that monster damage scales a lot more than their hp. Increasing a group's size from 1 to 6, an enemy mob's damage increases by at least a factor of 300%, but their hp barely by 100%. What instakills them when solo, instakills them in a full group (since most special abilities already deal 150%-200% of a mob's max hp when solo) or leaves them very close to death. But at the same time, the monster that would deal 3-5% of your hp per hit now deals 20% per hit, effectively instagibbing you when a champion decides to score a crit unless you're build purely for tanking.

[Gauthaag]

Im sure a lot of people here remember when we needed a balanced party to complete most of the harder heroic quests. Then came MOTU and the power creep began. The uber powergamers wanted more self healing so they wouldn't have to wait for a healer, or a rogue, to join their party. Well, they got what they asked for and now this is what the games has become. All the classes were buffed, all the random loot was buffed and now almost anyone can solo what used to be extrememly difficult heroic quests and the power players can solo most EE quests. And the funny thing is that people say everythings too easy but then change their mind when a certain new quest becomes a little too tough, or takes longer than they would like it too (e.g. people whined about the legendary shroud portals insalne hitpoints so the devs just nerfed it to accomadate. Everyone wants everything THEIR way and that can never be.

It wasnot uberpowergamers who wante d more power. Uberpower gamer had enough umd on his barb to heal via scrolls and enough sklil to avoid or just soak traps. It was the "crying majority" that wanted to be able solo quests too. And thus soloing quests, what was hard earned privilege, became almost right for any player, no matter how gimp he was. And all that because people arent able to find friends to run with to form fine group:) Now we have servers full of capable soloists, but people crying there are no lfms or group, because they are still unable to find friends to run with or form groups:)

[FranOhmsford]

The problem being that we had that, once. I know all of my Divines were in on Stealth mode, because despite being divine, I wasn't exactly set up as a healbot. There's nothing more annoying than logging in and getting 15 whispers for "come heal us", when you're actually set up as an AA and DPSing. With the addendum that my initial plan was to be a "support healer", but it wasn't to be a nurse, so I maybe didn't have Empower Healing, or SF Conjuration. I maybe had Empower, which works, but that didn't mean I wanted to blow through all my sps keeping the group alive, only to have members attempt to sell me sp pots they got as a drop. You see, this is why we're where we're at, partially. Then there was the BYOH/be self sufficient thing. So while this may be a dev thing, it's not entirely on them. These forums were blowing up with "people aren't self sufficient enough" in the not too distant past, and this is what led us to where we are as much as anything else.

I'm sorry but you didn;t have to be fully heal specced to be a capable Healer!

Full Heal Spec has ALWAYS been Overkill in DDO!

Yes there was the chance of running out of SPs but Groups knew this and most Raid Groups looked for TWO Healers because of it!

Shrining was accepted! Potting requirements I agree were a bit high but that had nothing to do with the power of your heals and everything to do with healing too often and using up SPs too fast.
No I didn't like the player based requirement of having 100 Heal Scrolls on my Cleric - No way could I afford even 10 of those at that time!

But those Player Based Issues came down the line from the Ubers!
They didn't go up from Lesser Players!
The Devs catered fully to the Ubers by removing those Requirements NOT to the Lesser Players!


It was people like you who would refuse to play a Cleric as a Cleric that brought us to this situation!
WHY couldn't you accept that sometimes certain players might need you to put your own "fun" aside for a while and make their life easier?
WHY couldn't you just play a Ranger if it was an Archer you wanted to play? I don't recall anyone ever asking a 13 Cleric/7 Ranger {Past Life Build} to Raid Heal! In fact it was rare any Raid would start without at least two Healers with a minimum of 17 Cleric or 18 FvS Levels EACH!

BTW Not all of us could afford to hand our Mnem Pots away wily nilly {some of us were collecting them for our own Cleric/FvS alts} BUT when a Cleric was doing a good job she would likely be handed a few! {Maybe not in Every Raid but enough!}.

[nokowi]

Like what?

Multiple Classes in PnP had access to the same Spells - This has been replicated in DDO but not as a later thing - It was done at the START!

Artis got a whole slew of their own Spells no-one else had access to.
Druids got less but still some.
Warlocks even got a couple - I'd love my Radiant Aura to work like ES Aura btw!



Earthquake?!?
NO! Just NO!
Earthquake should be available to Clerics and FvSs just like it was in PnP!



Turbine unfortunately deal in Extremes - We've gone over this again and again every time there's a buff or a nerf - Turbine always goes too far!

I didn't mind waiting for a Cleric back in the day btw - The move to IP is when this game really changed because no Clerics would ever join anyone who was waiting, In fact NO-ONE at all would join unless you were already in the quest!

We had to learn to Solo because otherwise we'd never get anything done!
The Power Players were always miles ahead - This hasn't changed!
So now everyone can Solo Heroic Elites and the Power Players are angry because it's not just for them anymore!


Please don't speak for power players, you don't understand them.

Trying to turn a game which even casual players want to be able to solo on elite into PnP. It can't happen.

DDO lacks a DM to create challenge and interest, regardless of party make up.

Siticking to PnP-like implementation is very important, whenever it doesn't lower the quality of the game.

Giving clerics earthquake would be bad for DDO, unless druids are given other unique abilities. A much better solution is to give clerics abilities that matter in actual gameplay.

It is the "I want everything crowd" --> which includes both causal gamers and power gamers, that are really making this game less fun to play. The short term gain from having every player have full self healing soon diminishes when you realize you are bored and unchallenged, and that its hard to find a group.

[RoberttheBard]

I'm sorry but you didn;t have to be fully heal specced to be a capable Healer!

Full Heal Spec has ALWAYS been Overkill in DDO!

Yes there was the chance of running out of SPs but Groups knew this and most Raid Groups looked for TWO Healers because of it!

Shrining was accepted! Potting requirements I agree were a bit high but that had nothing to do with the power of your heals and everything to do with healing too often and using up SPs too fast.
No I didn't like the player based requirement of having 100 Heal Scrolls on my Cleric - No way could I afford even 10 of those at that time!

But those Player Based Issues came down the line from the Ubers!
They didn't go up from Lesser Players!
The Devs catered fully to the Ubers by removing those Requirements NOT to the Lesser Players!


It was people like you who would refuse to play a Cleric as a Cleric that brought us to this situation!
WHY couldn't you accept that sometimes certain players might need you to put your own "fun" aside for a while and make their life easier?
WHY couldn't you just play a Ranger if it was an Archer you wanted to play? I don't recall anyone ever asking a 13 Cleric/7 Ranger {Past Life Build} to Raid Heal! In fact it was rare any Raid would start without at least two Healers with a minimum of 17 Cleric or 18 FvS Levels EACH!

BTW Not all of us could afford to hand our Mnem Pots away wily nilly {some of us were collecting them for our own Cleric/FvS alts} BUT when a Cleric was doing a good job she would likely be handed a few! {Maybe not in Every Raid but enough!}.

...and a swing and a miss. The miss being: I wasn't set up to be a healbot. Spells were there, sure, but the willingness to burn my sps as a healer, instead of playing the toon I built to play is where you totally miss the point. Oh, and since when is Cleric the only Divine class? I admit, I have one, a lvl 15 Sun Elf Cleric. Does the level and class tell you anything? I rolled it when it first came out, and I might have two ranks in. The problem Fran, was people like you, seeing Divine and thinking "Hey, I can save plat on a pocket cleric by recruiting them into my group", not taking into consideration what the toon may be rolled up for, but thinking "I need a Divine to heal us, and that's all they're good for". Congratulations to contributing to the state of today's game?

[FranOhmsford]

It wasnot uberpowergamers who wante d more power. Uberpower gamer had enough umd on his barb to heal via scrolls and enough sklil to avoid or just soak traps. It was the "crying majority" that wanted to be able solo quests too. And thus soloing quests, what was hard earned privilege, became almost right for any player, no matter how gimp he was. And all that because people arent able to find friends to run with to form fine group:) Now we have servers full of capable soloists, but people crying there are no lfms or group, because they are still unable to find friends to run with or form groups:)

The Uberpowergamers as you put it were the ones telling the rest of us we weren't good enough!

The Uberpowergamers were the ones who wouldn't let us join Groups if we didn't have everything they wanted!
Cleric - Must Have: 100 Heal Scrolls, 100 Mnem Pots, 100 Res Scrolls BUT where were we supposed to get those things when our Cleric was our only Character or indeed our Main and we couldn't get into any Groups?
Barb - Silver Flame Pots! But I'm sorry....You told me to buy Vale, VoN, Delera's and Gianthold first - Now I have to buy and run ALL of Necro and Catacombs but I've already spent the money I had buying those other packs!
etc. etc.!

Where the Devs went wrong is in catering to those Uberpowergamers by providing boosts to EVERYBODY! Just upping the power of those Powergamers at the same time as the Lesser Players!
The goalposts stayed in the exact same place so the Devs had to move them to - Once again leaving the Lesser Players behind and the whole sorry story starts again!




I've said this over and over again but the problem DDO has is based on their being no MAXIMUM!
No point at which Power stops going up when you add that piece of gear or that Epic Feat!

What would DDO be like if Stats stopped at let's say 50 and it didn't matter if you found a +14 item, your +7 was enough to get you there BUT your next life you could drop that stat down by a few points, take 1 less Feat and 2 less Enhancements and still have the Max Stat?
What would DDO be like if AC stopped at 100?
If PRR stopped at 200
If Dodge stopped at 20%
If Skills stopped at 90
If etc. etc. etc.?

The Meta would be working out how to get there rather than having to constantly buff and buff and buff!

The Devs could have set up the mobs at each level to specific numbers where some would have To Hit bonuses high enough to always hit the absolute max build at that Level while doing little damage but others would only hit 50% of the time but would do much more damage and others would rarely hit, do little damage but have ACs so high that players would need to find other ways to kill them etc.

The Devs could have set up Concentration say to have 1 point of concentration = 10 points of damage taken before you get interrupted - Quicken no longer a must take Feat!

The Devs could have added different types of gear that might actually get used because players have other ways to get certain stats up.

[FranOhmsford]

Please don't speak for power players, you don't understand them.

I understand them just fine!


Trying to turn a game which even casual players want to be able to solo on elite into PnP. It can't happen.

DDO lacks a DM to create challenge and interest, regardless of party make up.

Yes DDO lacks a DM but the Devs should be able to work around this problem!

Randomization - There's nowhere near enough of it in DDO!


Siticking to PnP-like implementation is very important, whenever it doesn't lower the quality of the game.

DDO is so far from PnP now that the above quote makes no sense whatsoever!


Giving clerics earthquake would be bad for DDO, unless druids are given other unique abilities. A much better solution is to give clerics abilities that matter in actual gameplay.

So Shapechanging isn't a unique ability? Could have fooled me!

Face it: Druids get massively superior Melee to Clerics and Souls while also being given unique access to the absolute best CC Spell in the game!
And you think this is right?

Druids have plenty of Unique Spells too - Far more than Warlocks for instance!
Earthquake shouldn't be Unique to Druids because Clerics/Souls are weak for High Level Spells as it is and giving Druids sole access to one so powerful is a kick in the teeth!


It is the "I want everything crowd" --> which includes both causal gamers and power gamers, that are really making this game less fun to play. The short term gain from having every player have full self healing soon diminishes when you realize you are bored and unchallenged, and that its hard to find a group.

The game should be playable by everyone - Requirements for High Level and End-Game Play should be based on the strengths of the Character NOT of the Player!

The turning of Tomes into absolute P2P has hurt more than anything else - Upgrade Tomes need to go away NOW! Standard +1-+6 tomes need to actually drop in game at the relevant levels {3 for +1s, 7 for +2s etc.}, +1 Upgrades need to drop in End-Game content with an absolute maximum placed on Tomes of +7!
The Favour Rewards would of course need to change to fit - 1750 = +4 Tome, 5k = +7 Tome {Only way to get a straight +7} and other Rewards need to be added anyway to make the Favour viable past 2-3 lives!

[nokowi]

I understand them just fine!



Yes DDO lacks a DM but the Devs should be able to work around this problem!

Randomization - There's nowhere near enough of it in DDO!



DDO is so far from PnP now that the above quote makes no sense whatsoever!



So Shapechanging isn't a unique ability? Could have fooled me!

Face it: Druids get massively superior Melee to Clerics and Souls while also being given unique access to the absolute best CC Spell in the game!
And you think this is right?

Druids have plenty of Unique Spells too - Far more than Warlocks for instance!
Earthquake shouldn't be Unique to Druids because Clerics/Souls are weak for High Level Spells as it is and giving Druids sole access to one so powerful is a kick in the teeth!



The game should be playable by everyone - Requirements for High Level and End-Game Play should be based on the strengths of the Character NOT of the Player!

The turning of Tomes into absolute P2P has hurt more than anything else - Upgrade Tomes need to go away NOW! Standard +1-+6 tomes need to actually drop in game at the relevant levels {3 for +1s, 7 for +2s etc.}, +1 Upgrades need to drop in End-Game content with an absolute maximum placed on Tomes of +7!
The Favour Rewards would of course need to change to fit - 1750 = +4 Tome, 5k = +7 Tome {Only way to get a straight +7} and other Rewards need to be added anyway to make the Favour viable past 2-3 lives!

Like 95% of people on the forums, you don't understand others not like you. Your posts are full of mischaracterizations and misinformation about those you simply can't comprehend. Do us all a favor and simply speak for yourself. I will try to do the same instead of making mischaracterizations about you.

Just because you feel druids are better than clerics is not an argument to turn clerics into druids.

DDO has very few unique class differences. They should be preserved at all costs.

Instead of asking for a game where clerics have useful abilities, you want to diminish the difference between a cleric and a druid in DDO. There is a solution that would make DDO a better game, and it involves designing a game where clerics have unique and useful contributions.

You have already abandoned PnP comparisons by your own comments, so referring to PnP as an argument for clerics to have earthquake is out.

[Gauthaag]

Like 95% of people on the forums, you don't understand others not like you. Your posts are full of mischaracterizations and misinformation about those you simply can't comprehend. Do us all a favor and simply speak for yourself. I will try to do the same instead of making mischaracterizations about you.

Just because you feel druids are better than clerics is not an argument to turn clerics into druids.

DDO has very few unique class differences. They should be preserved at all costs.

Instead of asking for a game where clerics have useful abilities, you want to diminish the difference between a cleric and a druid in DDO. There is a solution that would make DDO a better game, and it involves designing a game where clerics have unique and useful contributions.

You have already abandoned PnP comparisons by your own comments, so referring to PnP as an argument for clerics to have earthquake is out.

+1

well said

[PermaBanned]

The Uberpowergamers as you put it were the ones telling the rest of us we weren't good enough!Really? I thought it was all the dying, blowing up trap boxes, and other assorted problems that I only really noticed when, as I was learning to swim (first getting started in DDO) I jumped into the deep-end first (hit that Elite button I was sooooo not ready for...)



I've said this over and over again but the problem DDO has is based on their being no MAXIMUM!
No point at which Power stops going up when you add that piece of gear or that Epic Feat!

What would DDO be like if Stats stopped at let's say 50 and it didn't matter if you found a +14 item, your +7 was enough to get you there BUT your next life you could drop that stat down by a few points, take 1 less Feat and 2 less Enhancements and still have the Max Stat?
What would DDO be like if AC stopped at 100?
If PRR stopped at 200
If Dodge stopped at 20%
If Skills stopped at 90
If etc. etc. etc.?

The Meta would be working out how to get there rather than having to constantly buff and buff and buff!What would happen, you ask? Simple: instead of tweaking builds to max out in particular areas, it would get ever easier to have max/near-max capability in all areas - more so even than we do now... and you'd call that an improvement? What, not enough super toons around for your taste?

[count_spicoli]

How would that work exactly?

Would we go back to the Cleric being nothing more than a Healbot, the Rogue only being there for Traps, the Bard a Buffbot etc.?
How about the poor tank who just holds down one button to block and presses a 2nd button once every 6 seconds to maintain initmidate while a couple of DPS beat on the mob's back?
Or the Wizards who absolutely HATED being CC Bots?

Or would it be 2 Major DPS toons with massive defenses doing all the work because everyone else is simply incapable of making a contribution due to mobs insane HPs, Saves, PRR etc.?

Also think about the guy who wants to play a Tank for instance but no-one will play with him because he's new and unknown while all the groups already have their go to Tanks!
Think about the Enchantment Specced Wizard who's told to DPS even though his DPS is a Joke because "We already have a CC Bot" or even worse can't even get into the Group in the first place!

We don't all have perfect Static Groups to run in and even then think of the guy who really wanted to play a Cleric but is stuck playing a Rogue because someone else is playing a Cleric!

We asked for lesser classes to be buffed so that we could contribute BUT the Devs did what they always do and went too far. Then the round of nerfs came and again they went too far, and again, and again!
We keep asking for Balance but what we always get is imbalance of a different kind!

What about the people who like playing tanks and hitting a button? Quit the game.

How about the healer types who enjoyed healing others? Quit the game

What about the trap monkey who likes doing traps to help keep his party alive? Quit the game

To me Bb not motu is what spelled doom to people who liked a good group challenge. Soloers who wanted bb but didn't want to do the work of bettering their toons to compete on the highest level complained and moaned that they should be able to solo ee on gimped toons so they could get bb too. Before that running hard or norm was no big deal. This what I used to do when learning the game. Their should be something for both crowds these days but unfortunately it's mostly the gimped soloers who get catered too.

[FranOhmsford]

What about the people who like playing tanks and hitting a button? Quit the game.

How about the healer types who enjoyed healing others? Quit the game

What about the trap monkey who likes doing traps to help keep his party alive? Quit the game

To me Bb not motu is what spelled doom to people who liked a good group challenge. Soloers who wanted bb but didn't want to do the work of bettering their toons to compete on the highest level complained and moaned that they should be able to solo ee on gimped toons so they could get bb too. Before that running hard or norm was no big deal. This what I used to do when learning the game. Their should be something for both crowds these days but unfortunately it's mostly the gimped soloers who get catered too.

What are you talking about?

EE is no easier now than it was 2 years ago when it was introduced!

We have better gear, more EDs, More ERs, Past Lives etc. now but EE is no easier now than it was when MotU came out!

The next bit is about Heroics btw NOT Epics!

When BB came out I wanted to run quests on Elite 2-3 levels above the quest level but could no longer find groups to do so with so I had to run at BB level or resort to soloing!
So I started running at BB Level {the game got much harder from that change alone!} only to find that no-one would join unless I was already IP!
So I learned to Solo E-BBs because I had no choice if I ever wanted to get a Group! {Sometimes you go IP and still no-one joins so you have to learn to solo!}.

I wasn't given anything to make me better - I earned it!
No I'm still not great at this game - I'm just OK because those who were ahead of me and already able to Solo E-BBs before MotU got all the new gear, EDs, ERs etc. quickly and the gap didn't get any narrower - In fact it probably got wider!

[count_spicoli]

Sorry meant to put HE not EE. Altho ee is ALOT easier now than it was when motu first came out do to er past lives and fully upgraded gear.

The first part of your quote was all I was referring to and didn't mean to say you specifically were the one complaing about not being able to solo elite quests. Sounds like you adapted and learned how to solo them on your own. Unfortunately many others didn't and whined that they should be able to solo elite quests on their terrible characters because they deserve it and boom massive power creep to get them thru. That left the groupers who liked to have well built toons work together for challenge left in the dust. Because let's face it if a first life gimpy gimperton could solo elite quests how much cheese is the quest gonna be for beefed up group of 6.

[Marshal_Lannes]

It would be nice if devs would consider each class pass from a 6-12 party member coop angle (not asking for more sync lever pulls here).

1-2 players - still kinda fun (especially if at least 1 of them is not a Feature of the Devs's latest and finest).
3-6 - are forced to pike in a full party in most quests.


If at least 1 player has massive aoe spam, its almost pointlessly boring to play linear dungeons, or arena/assault style quests.

ty
bb

Agreed. In any group of 6 at least one or two are going to mini-Thors with 50 past lives and will trivialize all content ruining the game for everyone else and turning those characters into Varsity Cheerleaders or baggage handlers.

[Darkmits]

Agreed. In any group of 6 at least one or two are going to mini-Thors with 50 past lives and will trivialize all content ruining the game for everyone else and turning those characters into Varsity Cheerleaders or baggage handlers.Even a 28-point build is a mini-Thor in the heroic part of the game. Heck even in epic for most quests.

[burlicconi]

As I said, friend of mine, who plays as a ranger, arcane archer, says most of his shots was 'one shot-one kill' in Attack on Stormreach storyline. He was playing at level (13 lvl), first lifer, no previous experience, so no extraordinary gear.

Heroic levels stayed where they were, but gear, enhancements and so went further, making quests more easier.

[FranOhmsford]

As I said, friend of mine, who plays as a ranger, arcane archer, says most of his shots was 'one shot-one kill' in Attack on Stormreach storyline. He was playing at level (13 lvl), first lifer, no previous experience, so no extraordinary gear.

Heroic levels stayed where they were, but gear, enhancements and so went further, making quests more easier.

Attack on Stormreach Mobs have high HP totals comparatively to their Level - On Elite no way is a first life newbie Ranger one-shotting them on "most" of his shots {maybe on some but we're talking 1 in 5 at best.}.

Are you sure your friend was running Elite NOT Normal or Hard?


Ranger has had a recent update so I could see mobs getting two shot with the right bow, enhancements and feats but most getting one-shot on a 1st lifer with no previous experience NO CHANCE!


Oh and at Lvl 13 he's actually UNDER level for Attack on Stormreach - They're 14s and 15s on E-BB!

[Gremmlynn]

Whats wrong with easy XP and loot?To be frank, both are completely worthless if one is just going to pike.

[burlicconi]

Attack on Stormreach Mobs have high HP totals comparatively to their Level - On Elite no way is a first life newbie Ranger one-shotting them on "most" of his shots {maybe on some but we're talking 1 in 5 at best.}.

Are you sure your friend was running Elite NOT Normal or Hard?


Ranger has had a recent update so I could see mobs getting two shot with the right bow, enhancements and feats but most getting one-shot on a 1st lifer with no previous experience NO CHANCE!


Oh and at Lvl 13 he's actually UNDER level for Attack on Stormreach - They're 14s and 15s on E-BB!

I'm sure that he plaued elite- we were in a party, playing together. I saw he can done decent damage. Other 3 of us are "experienced" players, so these quests was a joke, only medusa's fight was fun.

He played at lvl 13 quests in first chain and lvl 14 for second chain, so one level bellow.

[Kriogen]

It's a problem if xp and loot isn't what you're after but a side bonus. I can understand that it's a totally alien concept to you, but some players play for the immersion and the story, not for the stats.....
If you want immersion and story, you solo or do it with equal minded friends, but not in a PUG.

PUG is "drama".

[Gremmlynn]

Im sure a lot of people here remember when we needed a balanced party to complete most of the harder heroic quests. Then came MOTU and the power creep began. The uber powergamers wanted more self healing so they wouldn't have to wait for a healer, or a rogue, to join their party. Well, they got what they asked for and now this is what the games has become. All the classes were buffed, all the random loot was buffed and now almost anyone can solo what used to be extrememly difficult heroic quests and the power players can solo most EE quests. And the funny thing is that people say everythings too easy but then change their mind when a certain new quest becomes a little too tough, or takes longer than they would like it too (e.g. people whined about the legendary shroud portals insalne hitpoints so the devs just nerfed it to accomadate. Everyone wants everything THEIR way and that can never be.Of course everyone wants things their way and are only willing to tolerate things when they are close enough to that for the game to be more worth their time than anything else they could be doing. That's what gets them to choose to play it in the first place.

[Darkmits]

I'm sure that he plaued elite- we were in a party, playing together. I saw he can done decent damage. Other 3 of us are "experienced" players, so these quests was a joke, only medusa's fight was fun.

He played at lvl 13 quests in first chain and lvl 14 for second chain, so one level bellow.I also find it hard to belive. I am right now on my 4th life, I'm lvl13 and I'm running 1st Lordsmarch chain on Elite. My Empower+Maximize Shout SLA deals ~150 with enemy save, ~300 without, close to 700 when critting with no save. Very few enemies die instantly with a no-save crit. Most have 10-20% hp left. I failed last night trying to do every optional in the Minotaur village, because I ran out of spellpoints and I had no way to oneshot the healers that were casting Mass Cure and Heal every 3 seconds. I'll retry again tonight.

[Gremmlynn]

It was people like you who would refuse to play a Cleric as a Cleric that brought us to this situation!
WHY couldn't you accept that sometimes certain players might need you to put your own "fun" aside for a while and make their life easier?
WHY couldn't you just play a Ranger if it was an Archer you wanted to play? I don't recall anyone ever asking a 13 Cleric/7 Ranger {Past Life Build} to Raid Heal! In fact it was rare any Raid would start without at least two Healers with a minimum of 17 Cleric or 18 FvS Levels EACH!This is just silly. It makes zero sense to do that unless those others are close friends. My question to this is why play at all on that day if not playing would be more fun.

As far as questioning why someone would play any particular build. Most likely because that's the build they want to play and they really don't owe it to anyone to play anything else.

I really don't see the issue with paying other players with SP potions to heal bot one's raid. So what if you are saving those up for your own characters. If you want them to do something they wouldn't otherwise do, you have to provide them with a reason to. Just because I'm saving up for my own chainsaw, doesn't mean I should expect free tree trimming.

[Gauthaag]

I understand them just fine!


The game should be playable by everyone - Requirements for High Level and End-Game Play should be based on the strengths of the Character NOT of the Player!



Are u saying that dumb player with no player skill should have same chance of success as really skilled and experienced player using the same build (not mentioning the first one copied the build from his thread "gimme the strongest pally build" where the second one who developed it gently posted it)? that's quite ridiculous:)

[Gremmlynn]

Are u saying that dumb player with no player skill should have same chance of success as really skilled and experienced player using the same build (not mentioning the first one copied the build from his thread "gimme the strongest pally build" where the second one who developed it gently posted it)? that's quite ridiculous:)But from Turbines perspective, it's likely a goal. They really could care less who is the best, so don't set the game up in a manner that determines that. While at one time they could have used the difficulty settings to satisfy everyone to some extent. That went out the window when a dev who forgot that finding out who was the best wasn't what supported their bottom line added BB and set the bar for what is acceptable xp/min to high.

[nokowi]

Are u saying that dumb player with no player skill should have same chance of success as really skilled and experienced player using the same build (not mentioning the first one copied the build from his thread "gimme the strongest pally build" where the second one who developed it gently posted it)? that's quite ridiculous:)

I believe is exactly what has been said, along with diluting class abilities (sharing class abilities between all classes). Fran can chime in if this is a misstatement of prior posts.

I find it comical a player can complain about a lack of use for a cleric when sharing abilities (healing for all) is what cause this exact problem.

Giving everyone self healing did not create balance, it just made your cleric useless.

Fran's solution is to share more abilities, which will have an even more negative impact.

[KoobTheProud]

Considering they're ~half way through the class passes, the advice is coming a bit late.

Even if the Devs had taken that approach from the start of the class passes, I suspect they'd already lost too many group-play focused players to their {seeming} focus on increased soloability and {seeming} reduction of team-centric quest crafting to get a positive result from the game's current community.

They've lost group play players because the player base is completely split on how best to run an instance.

TR's are the villain here as well as XP pots. If you want to get as much XP as fast as possible you literally run through an instance, which discourages group play and coordination and encourages high DPS-instakill counts along the way and dodging whatever you can dodge as well.

If the devs put in enough content to encourage group play it would make a comeback. I would disable running in dungeons altogether as a start. I would randomize encounters and traps. I would create interesting side options, not simple puzzles but things that might potentially lead to a great reward at the end if you accomplished them and that required both coordination and some thought to finish. In short I would take the sprinting mad dash zerg completely out of the game in the majority of the quests while leaving some staples for the people who just can't help themselves and have to play that way.

I would also create a class of XP pot in the store that has completion charges instead of a timer. Like a 3 dungeon pot and a 6 dungeon pot and a 12 dungeon pot. You don't lose a charge off of them until you have completed a dungeon. They could be priced to have the same effect as a 3 hour, 6 hour, 12 hour pot in terms of number of instances completed but they would not penalize anybody for running slow nor for problems caused by less effective group members or waits for group members to form up.

People keep people playing MMO's. Numbers you can get anywhere, people you have developed a playing relationship with over the span of years you can't.

[Hoglum]

Requirements for High Level and End-Game Play should be based on the strengths of the Character NOT of the Player!



This is an awful thing to say.

[Gremmlynn]

This is an awful thing to say.Not really, as getting there is just a matter of staying at it long enough.

[nokowi]

This is an awful thing to say.

It is OK to have this belief.

It is not OK to try and force this belief on everyone else, particularly if you are the minority opinion.

I would definitely leave DDO if some of these suggestions were implemented.

[KoobTheProud]

This is an awful thing to say.

Yes, it really is. Everybody gets a trophy is for 8 year olds, not for a game in which skill is part of the play experience.

End game play should be generally accessible to everybody in some form but high level play should not. Elite instances really should not be accessible to most players until they are completely geared out and even then they should require actual skilled play to complete successfully.

I high end raided in both EQ and WoW in guilds that were in the top 5 on each server I played on and only one of those guilds was actually able to take on the highest level raids as content breakers. The EQ guild was unable to raid in the absolute topout zones once the level cap expanded past 50 because that's just the way the content was gated. I remember watching the Phantom Raiders, the best guild on the server, taking out the top level bosses after many tries in a reas that my guild barely ventured into because even the trash mobs were enough to take down an entire raid at times. A 60 man raid.

If you want an MMO to be really EPIC you need to have areas where only the top 1% can go for the first 6 months. You need to have mobs that when you see them you run, even if you're in a raid, because getting the raid back together again after a wipe in that area is going to be hard.

I'm not taking Plane of Fear or Hate or places like that, which were fearsome and took many hours to break with a good guild, I'm talking the continual ramp up in power from there in which the players actually got weaker against the game system even as they geared up and become much more powerful.

The problem DDO has right now is that the players are ramping up in power much faster than the game system and so the EPIC feel of the game in fact is going away, as will much of the player base over time if this is how things continue. DDO really needs to put the fear of the environment back into players, starting with the mini-Thors. Legendary Elite should be approachable by nobody at this point given the gear levels in play. It should be something that high end raid leaders are plotting how to attack after they've geared their members in Legendary Normal and Hard.

[Gauthaag]

It is OK to have this belief.

It is not OK to try and force this belief on everyone else, particularly if you are the minority opinion.

I would definitely leave DDO if some of these suggestions were implemented.

it is ok to have this belief if u re playing turn based rpg, not the one with action oriented gameplay - and even there players with building skill and strategic and tactical thinking have big advantage over those without such skill.

[Gauthaag]

Yes, it really is. Everybody gets a trophy is for 8 year olds, not for a game in which skill is part of the play experience.

End game play should be generally accessible to everybody in some form but high level play should not. Elite instances really should not be accessible to most players until they are completely geared out and even then they should require actual skilled play to complete successfully.

I high end raided in both EQ and WoW in guilds that were in the top 5 on each server I played on and only one of those guilds was actually able to take on the highest level raids as content breakers. The EQ guild was unable to raid in the absolute topout zones once the level cap expanded past 50 because that's just the way the content was gated. I remember watching the Phantom Raiders, the best guild on the server, taking out the top level bosses after many tries in a reas that my guild barely ventured into because even the trash mobs were enough to take down an entire raid at times. A 60 man raid.

If you want an MMO to be really EPIC you need to have areas where only the top 1% can go for the first 6 months. You need to have mobs that when you see them you run, even if you're in a raid, because getting the raid back together again after a wipe in that area is going to be hard.

I'm not taking Plane of Fear or Hate or places like that, which were fearsome and took many hours to break with a good guild, I'm talking the continual ramp up in power from there in which the players actually got weaker against the game system even as they geared up and become much more powerful.

The problem DDO has right now is that the players are ramping up in power much faster than the game system and so the EPIC feel of the game in fact is going away, as will much of the player base over time if this is how things continue. DDO really needs to put the fear of the environment back into players, starting with the mini-Thors. Legendary Elite should be approachable by nobody at this point given the gear levels in play. It should be something that high end raid leaders are plotting how to attack after they've geared their members in Legendary Normal and Hard.

its not about access but about success. U should be able to access everything, however gimp u are, but u should have no chance of success unless u are prepared properly. But well its quite hard achievable with recent level of power creep and Raw DPS as only viable solution to advancing any quest

[nokowi]

its not about access but about success. U should be able to access everything, however gimp u are, but u should have no chance of success unless u are prepared properly. But well its quite hard achievable with recent level of power creep and Raw DPS as only viable solution to advancing any quest

Dev's have taken a DPS is all approach in the class passes, instead of preserving what is unique about each class, and how they contribute in a unique way. This is a result of class homegenization. DPS + Healing > Damage Taken is all that remains when your remove class differences and allow Tier 4 abilities by level 4 multiclass.

The problem is not power creep, but class homogenization that makes raw DPS the only thing that matters.

If you cleric had useful abilities, you wouldn't care your DPS was lower.

[karatemack]

People are still willing to group. I can typically fill an LFM for heroic or epic content.

I believe many people find it necessary to group in EE and LE content.

Class diversity is something I love about DDO, as well as the customization options. There is still rich diversity between the classes. The DEVs have NOT killed customization. Certain builds have gone away, however there is still a very rich diversity between stat spread, class choice, feat choice, enhancement choice, ED choice, gear choice and play-style choices.

What I have noticed is that the window to heal MOST melee builds has gone down dramatically. Also, many builds now have enough self-healing to rarely need a dedicated healer. I have also noticed that certain quests are designed towards group play while others feel designed to be able to solo. Perhaps this is intentional. I enjoy and prefer the quests which seem designed with group play in mind and believe that quest design is generally where the focus on "fixing" difficulty should be.

As the class balance passes are being rolled out, I believe the DEVs are doing an excellent job. I understand its a work in progress and that some give and take will happen in the process.

I don't believe you NEED past lives in order to compete in high level content, however they certainly help a lot. It is true, however, that if you select the right feats/enhancements/gear that you can run EE and LE content in your first life. The advantage of extra stat points, damage mitigation, etc from PLs is not trivial. Of course, it is easier now to gain PLs than it was in the past (between heroic xp reduction, bravery bonuses, ship buff bonuses, xp pots, xp stones, power creep, etc.). The only build/playstyle which requires PLs to be effective at all IMO is the DC caster, but every build benefits and is certainly more effective with them.

[KoobTheProud]

its not about access but about success. U should be able to access everything, however gimp u are, but u should have no chance of success unless u are prepared properly. But well its quite hard achievable with recent level of power creep and Raw DPS as only viable solution to advancing any quest

I don't know that everybody should be able to access everything even with levels and gear. The corollary to that is that there will be no content in the game that takes a high level of skill, knowledge and gear to access and I think that is a very bad situation.

With the move to instanced content the distinction has become less clear but it's really freaking cool to have zones that everybody can go in (even simultaneously) but that will reliably kill most of the people in there unless they have a plan to navigate the zone without getting killed and by plan I generally mean not being spotted by anything of any real size as they move across it.

The absence of content that will routinely defeat the player makes all content routine and ultimately boring.

[Gremmlynn]

Yes, it really is. Everybody gets a trophy is for 8 year olds, not for a game in which skill is part of the play experience.

End game play should be generally accessible to everybody in some form but high level play should not. Elite instances really should not be accessible to most players until they are completely geared out and even then they should require actual skilled play to complete successfully.

I high end raided in both EQ and WoW in guilds that were in the top 5 on each server I played on and only one of those guilds was actually able to take on the highest level raids as content breakers. The EQ guild was unable to raid in the absolute topout zones once the level cap expanded past 50 because that's just the way the content was gated. I remember watching the Phantom Raiders, the best guild on the server, taking out the top level bosses after many tries in a reas that my guild barely ventured into because even the trash mobs were enough to take down an entire raid at times. A 60 man raid.

If you want an MMO to be really EPIC you need to have areas where only the top 1% can go for the first 6 months. You need to have mobs that when you see them you run, even if you're in a raid, because getting the raid back together again after a wipe in that area is going to be hard.

I'm not taking Plane of Fear or Hate or places like that, which were fearsome and took many hours to break with a good guild, I'm talking the continual ramp up in power from there in which the players actually got weaker against the game system even as they geared up and become much more powerful.

The problem DDO has right now is that the players are ramping up in power much faster than the game system and so the EPIC feel of the game in fact is going away, as will much of the player base over time if this is how things continue. DDO really needs to put the fear of the environment back into players, starting with the mini-Thors. Legendary Elite should be approachable by nobody at this point given the gear levels in play. It should be something that high end raid leaders are plotting how to attack after they've geared their members in Legendary Normal and Hard.That sounds good, but if DDO blows all of it's limited budget keeping a few raid guilds happy, what's to keep everyone else interested? DDO has never been anything like that as long as I have played and I doubt it was before. It's always been about making content that players, all players for the most part, can experience.

[Thar]

That's is very similar that I was suggesting to Turbine- to make new difficulty level, something like party level, which would be more, more difficult to play. Trap damage, monster HP, number of monsters, all this need to be increased if we want to all party members have their share in joy.

As it is, 5 members of party can hike while only on can finish the quest. Enhancement pass made 95% quest very easy to finish and it should be "fixed". I most of the time play in static 3-4 men party, and heroic quests are joke now, only EE can be fun...

Don't forget the lootpass giving everyone more hp, str, spell dc's etc...

[Thar]

That sounds good, but if DDO blows all of it's limited budget keeping a few raid guilds happy, what's to keep everyone else interested? DDO has never been anything like that as long as I have played and I doubt it was before. It's always been about making content that players, all players for the most part, can experience.

Raiding and something more than a 10 min quest are both important.

[FranOhmsford]

What I have noticed is that the window to heal MOST melee builds has gone down dramatically. Also, many builds now have enough self-healing to rarely need a dedicated healer. I have also noticed that certain quests are designed towards group play while others feel designed to be able to solo. Perhaps this is intentional. I enjoy and prefer the quests which seem designed with group play in mind and believe that quest design is generally where the focus on "fixing" difficulty should be.


The window to heal MOST melee builds has always been really small in DDO.
It's in my opinion the main reason why so many people hated playing Clerics in DDO when Clerics were actually needed - You had to be super fast on the Heals or you got yelled at by a soulstone!
That's why Clerics were Raid alts for many players rather than that player's main - You leveled your cleric up anyway you could then specced it to heal Raids where you could concentrate simply on spamming Mass Heals.
Then Players started wanting spot heals too and insisted you carried a stack of 100 heal scrolls with you at all times!

Leveling a Cleric was always a pain because you were in fact leveling a Character that's raison d'etre was Healing End-Game Raids.
So Cleric Players started ignoring Healing entirely, intentionally gimping their Healing and outright refusing to Heal people {It was far worse with FavSouls because they had the extra option of going full Melee Greatsword Warforged and sometimes had trouble even healing themselves!}.



As for Self-Healing - It's actually always been faster than relying on another player {maybe not as fast as a Hireling} because you had the power NOT the other player!
It wasn't as powerful as the Heal you'd get from a Cleric no but it was definitely faster and with the required reaction times in DDO vets shoved self-healing down newbies throats {Wot? No Heal Scrolls? NOOB Why you only got 12 UMD on a Rogue at Lvl 12? Boot! Wot? No Silver Flame Pots? I don't care if you haven't got Necro III yet even if it is one of the most hated packs in the game. Boot!}.

It was always funny to me that my Clerics never had any trouble whatsoever getting into BYOH Groups despite having the DPS of a wet noodle!

[Gremmlynn]

Raiding and something more than a 10 min quest are both important.The game has both. Probably as much of both as the budget allows at that. I doubt it could afford to make content that only 1% of the players could even enter with a chance of walking back out of for the first 6 months, which likely most of the player base could never do so it. It has some long quests. It has some raids. What it doesn't have is a progressive raiding environment and never really has. That's just not the type of game it is or tries to be. It also lacks any sort of leader boards or official rankings and has rarely had anything like that either.

[RoberttheBard]

I don't know that everybody should be able to access everything even with levels and gear. The corollary to that is that there will be no content in the game that takes a high level of skill, knowledge and gear to access and I think that is a very bad situation.

With the move to instanced content the distinction has become less clear but it's really freaking cool to have zones that everybody can go in (even simultaneously) but that will reliably kill most of the people in there unless they have a plan to navigate the zone without getting killed and by plan I generally mean not being spotted by anything of any real size as they move across it.

The absence of content that will routinely defeat the player makes all content routine and ultimately boring.

I'm not sure, but I think that you're confusing access with complete. These are very different things. If someone is the right level to enter a quest, they should be able to enter it. It just may be that doing so is exactly what's going to show them where they need to work on their character. In my own experience, I know that getting my butt handed to me by a quest has shown me flaws with a build. In fact, that is the only reliable metric I have to go off of. I can't use the character build forums, because some of these ideas would be laughed right off the internet. Some of my ideas get laughed right off the internet anyway, by me, when I see that "looks good on paper" doesn't translate well into "works well in game". That's the problem with theorycrafting builds, if you're not able to actually challenge the build, it's always going to look good, no matter what. However, stepping into content that I may not be able to finish will give me a much better barometer of what I need to adjust, maybe what feats I need to swap around, or maybe what focuses I need to evaluate on my way to cap.

That's why I hold the sincere belief that Ranger is the easiest way to get to AA, but not necessarily the best end game AA to build. Does it work? Most assuredly, I know, I've played one. I solo flagged CitW on Hard with one at level. There won't be any videos of that, it was ugly in Trial by Fury, but I got it done. My FvS, however, also an AA, blew right through it, at the same level, on the same difficulty. However, w/out being able to challenge these builds, I might still believe that easiest equals best. So being able to access a quest, in and of itself, isn't a bad thing. There should, however, and here we agree, be a very minimal chance that you could succeed if you don't know what you're doing with any build. This chance exists solely because everyone can get lucky, or unlucky, on rolls. I have guildmates that are in 3rd and higher past lives that are still learning the game. They got there riding on the coat tails of those of us that could carry them through, but take the time to answer any questions they may have about the character they're running, or what they need for a quest. But w/out that experience, nobody would get where they are.

[Chai]

The game should be playable by everyone - Requirements for High Level and End-Game Play should be based on the strengths of the Character NOT of the Player!


I usually avoid talking in absolutes when I can, but what you just said here can never occur as an absolute in a game with static content. Right now I am finding that while strength of the character does matter, in games with static content, better player > better character. DDO game play supports this, as those with better system mastery can complete harder content than someone playing the FOTM build who lacks system mastery.

[karatemack]

The window to heal MOST melee builds has always been really small in DDO.
It's in my opinion the main reason why so many people hated playing Clerics in DDO when Clerics were actually needed - You had to be super fast on the Heals or you got yelled at by a soulstone!
That's why Clerics were Raid alts for many players rather than that player's main - You leveled your cleric up anyway you could then specced it to heal Raids where you could concentrate simply on spamming Mass Heals.
Then Players started wanting spot heals too and insisted you carried a stack of 100 heal scrolls with you at all times!

Leveling a Cleric was always a pain because you were in fact leveling a Character that's raison d'etre was Healing End-Game Raids.
So Cleric Players started ignoring Healing entirely, intentionally gimping their Healing and outright refusing to Heal people {It was far worse with FavSouls because they had the extra option of going full Melee Greatsword Warforged and sometimes had trouble even healing themselves!}.



As for Self-Healing - It's actually always been faster than relying on another player {maybe not as fast as a Hireling} because you had the power NOT the other player!
It wasn't as powerful as the Heal you'd get from a Cleric no but it was definitely faster and with the required reaction times in DDO vets shoved self-healing down newbies throats {Wot? No Heal Scrolls? NOOB Why you only got 12 UMD on a Rogue at Lvl 12? Boot! Wot? No Silver Flame Pots? I don't care if you haven't got Necro III yet even if it is one of the most hated packs in the game. Boot!}.

It was always funny to me that my Clerics never had any trouble whatsoever getting into BYOH Groups despite having the DPS of a wet noodle!

I disagree with most of this.

The window between "its just a flesh wound" and "where's the cleric?!" has shrunk significantly over time.

My playstyle as a cleric has ALWAYS depended on the group. If we are fighting undead, I'm leading the kill count. If you are an effective melee and don't require constant healing then we'll split the kill count. If you CONSTANTLY expect me to babysit your red bar then I will proactively prevent it from dropping with CC/bb/install kills. I don't mind helping you out with a res... but at some point it's just better for us all if I carry your stone instead.

With heal amp and spell power items, you'd have to work very hard at making a cleric who is unable to heal. Healing isnt all a cleric is good for however it is definitely part of what the class function. The decreased window to be efficient at healing the party means self-healing, which is now available for pretty much every class, is often MORE effective than having a healer. The armor up pass addressed this, however now we have have taken a few steps in the other direction in terms of mob damage vs damage mitigation available.

I do agree with you, however, about BYOH groups.

[Kompera_Oberon]

And the funny thing is that people say everythings too easy but then change their mind when a certain new quest becomes a little too tough, or takes longer than they would like it too (e.g. people whined about the legendary shroud portals insalne hitpoints so the devs just nerfed it to accomadate. Everyone wants everything THEIR way and that can never be.
I do find this funny, even though I disagree on your example. I never saw anyone say that the insane DR and HP or LShroud portals was "too hard." I saw a great many posts saying it was too dull, however. Beating on an inanimate object is not a challenge, and if you can handle the adds the additional time does not make one whit of a difference.

That said, the "melee is dead now" and "OMG I got 1-shot" crying about Legendary content amuses me enormously, because as you say the people whining about "how hard" the L content is are the same ones who were crying about how the game was too easy. They got clever and switched quickly over to "It's not not that it's hard, it's that it isn't well designed. We want smart, hard content." instead, but frankly I taste no difference in the flavor of their tears.

[KoobTheProud]

I'm not sure, but I think that you're confusing access with complete. These are very different things. If someone is the right level to enter a quest, they should be able to enter it. It just may be that doing so is exactly what's going to show them where they need to work on their character. In my own experience, I know that getting my butt handed to me by a quest has shown me flaws with a build. In fact, that is the only reliable metric I have to go off of. I can't use the character build forums, because some of these ideas would be laughed right off the internet. Some of my ideas get laughed right off the internet anyway, by me, when I see that "looks good on paper" doesn't translate well into "works well in game". That's the problem with theorycrafting builds, if you're not able to actually challenge the build, it's always going to look good, no matter what. However, stepping into content that I may not be able to finish will give me a much better barometer of what I need to adjust, maybe what feats I need to swap around, or maybe what focuses I need to evaluate on my way to cap.

Well it's partly semantics, since being able to poke your nose in an instance but not able to get past the first spawn is effectively not having access to the content.

However there's also a type of discovery that DDO doesn't have at the moment, since effectively all content except for towns and camps is instanced. Almost all MMO's that do have non-instanced overlands have also lost this discovery factor, since they routinely make overlands very easy to traverse even at level cap.

Part of the problem that DDO faces moving forward is that there's really no way to challenge the top end players at this point, Most MMO's would put out top end elite content that could not be broken in the first month or two, maybe as much as three months for the top end guilds to begin to feel somewhat comfortable in addressing the zones and raids. However this doesn't work when you've created superhero characters at the top end. You can't challenge collections of those types of characters with anything more meaningful than a slightly tougher version of whatever they've already mastered. This is because making a real challenge for groups of players who are stomping all over the existing high end content is at a similar difficulty level to totally reinventing the game.

Ideally the high end players would not be mini-Thors and so you could add a few twists they hadn't seen before and ramp up mob damage and defenses and it would take them awhile to get through the content. That interim period of time could be used both to shore up the basic game for new players and non-elite vets and also to think about what's next at the top end. Instead the devs would literally have to reinvent how the combat system works and how the spawn system works and how mob AI works in order to create a real challenge for a dramatically over-powered top end player class.

You can see how just making one-shotting mobs and reworking existing content to put them in becomes the better option in an environment of limited resources. Hopefully they also have the time to make the new player experience captivating enough that the game doesn't decline on us.

[RoberttheBard]

Well it's partly semantics, since being able to poke your nose in an instance but not able to get past the first spawn is effectively not having access to the content.

However there's also a type of discovery that DDO doesn't have at the moment, since effectively all content except for towns and camps is instanced. Almost all MMO's that do have non-instanced overlands have also lost this discovery factor, since they routinely make overlands very easy to traverse even at level cap.

Part of the problem that DDO faces moving forward is that there's really no way to challenge the top end players at this point, Most MMO's would put out top end elite content that could not be broken in the first month or two, maybe as much as three months for the top end guilds to begin to feel somewhat comfortable in addressing the zones and raids. However this doesn't work when you've created superhero characters at the top end. You can't challenge collections of those types of characters with anything more meaningful than a slightly tougher version of whatever they've already mastered. This is because making a real challenge for groups of players who are stomping all over the existing high end content is at a similar difficulty level to totally reinventing the game.

Ideally the high end players would not be mini-Thors and so you could add a few twists they hadn't seen before and ramp up mob damage and defenses and it would take them awhile to get through the content. That interim period of time could be used both to shore up the basic game for new players and non-elite vets and also to think about what's next at the top end. Instead the devs would literally have to reinvent how the combat system works and how the spawn system works and how mob AI works in order to create a real challenge for a dramatically over-powered top end player class.

You can see how just making one-shotting mobs and reworking existing content to put them in becomes the better option in an environment of limited resources. Hopefully they also have the time to make the new player experience captivating enough that the game doesn't decline on us.

This will likely come off snarkier than it's intended, but which MMOs are those, in regard to the bolded part? Because I'm sure there are a lot of gamers that would flock there, at least when new content is released. The current MMO environment, everywhere I've been, is "New content released, top tier players hit it, and within a week, sometimes half that, they're complaining that there's nothing to do, and they're off to the next thing". I call them content sharks, because they devour content. The only notable exception that I can come up with was Rappelz, and with their leveling curve, it takes as much xp to get from 150 to 170 as it takes to get from 1 to 150, with no dailies, or repeatable quests. You grind, literally, for hours a day, for maybe a couple of percent for what you need for the next level, and if you die, you could come up with a net loss of xp, since it's a 4% penalty for dying. Still, despite the fact that it took two years for the first person to hit 170, there was then nothing to do, but rinse and repeat the same content.

The situation with content here isn't unique to here, it's pretty much the norm, across the board. As much as some of us want to believe developers can crank out quality content faster than people can devour it, it's a pipe dream, because there's no way they can.

[PermaBanned]

The window to heal MOST melee builds has always been really small in DDO.
It's in my opinion the main reason why so many people hated playing Clerics in DDO when Clerics were actually needed - You had to be super fast on the Heals or you got yelled at by a soulstone!
That's why Clerics were Raid alts for many players rather than that player's main - You leveled your cleric up anyway you could then specced it to heal Raids where you could concentrate simply on spamming Mass Heals.
Then Players started wanting spot heals too and insisted you carried a stack of 100 heal scrolls with you at all times!

Leveling a Cleric was always a pain because you were in fact leveling a Character that's raison d'etre was Healing End-Game Raids.
So Cleric Players started ignoring Healing entirely, intentionally gimping their Healing and outright refusing to Heal people {It was far worse with FavSouls because they had the extra option of going full Melee Greatsword Warforged and sometimes had trouble even healing themselves!}.
Suffice it to say, our experiences as a Cleric differed greatly.

[KoobTheProud]

The situation with content here isn't unique to here, it's pretty much the norm, across the board. As much as some of us want to believe developers can crank out quality content faster than people can devour it, it's a pipe dream, because there's no way they can.

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/World-Warcraft-Warlords-Draenor-Final-Raid-Boss-Beaten-472-Attempts-73114.html

The top end raid in Warlords of Draenor was beaten on Heroic (Normal) setting in 4 attempts by the top guild. It took 26 attempts to finish it on hard mode. It took FOUR HUNDRED AND SEVENTY TWO attempts for the first guild to complete the raid on Mythic level.

In Legendary Shroud people were 4 manning it on Legendary Elite in the first week.

[bsquishwizzy]

In a well designed game, not all contributions need to be dps.

Do we have this: no!

Dev's have been trying to balance DPS for all toons, and have generally reduced differences between classes (and thus the possibility for synergies) by borrowing things from other classes and giving them to other classes.

We need more things like Druid Earthquake, where a class has a unique contribution.


I'll go even further - that problem with the game is that the quests are focused on two distinct abilites - the ability to rack up high damage numbers, and the ability to heal. And that basically is all. Yeah, maybe some trapping, but in many ways that's a bit of an afterthought.

The game itself lacks depth. It lacks depth because it is an online MMO. In P&P, you had spells like Clairvoyance, and Friends, and Detect Alignment that had some use depending on the situation. But those don't exist because it is near impossible to utilize those in a combat situation. (which makes up about 80% of the quests). So it's cleaves, assasinates, fingers, and nukes with heals being somewhere in the mix. Change this focus, and "balance" gets adjusted right quick. Mainly because if you need an arcane with a certain set of spells to figure out friend from foe for a quest completion, that arcane now has a whole lot of worth.

Or if you need a trapper who can sneak past stuff at a certain section of the quest without raising an alarm, that rogue / ranger becomes a valued member of the party.

And I realize the minute this happens, you'll hear a wailing about how the quests are not solo-friendly, or how the game is going downhill, or how they are ruining max XP, and so on, and so on, and so on.

it's a great game. But it is merely a shadow of what it could be.

[Gauthaag]

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/World-Warcraft-Warlords-Draenor-Final-Raid-Boss-Beaten-472-Attempts-73114.html

The top end raid in Warlords of Draenor was beaten on Heroic (Normal) setting in 4 attempts by the top guild. It took 26 attempts to finish it on hard mode. It took FOUR HUNDRED AND SEVENTY TWO attempts for the first guild to complete the raid on Mythic level.

In Legendary Shroud people were 4 manning it on Legendary Elite in the first week.

People were mastering running heroic Shroud for years - Legendary one is anything but different. Altho I guess situation is pretty similar with other raids. but well - pretty good share of surprise element is lost due to lLammania preview, which serves as nothing more then proving ground for any new content, so some people are able to beat it the moment it hits live.

[Gauthaag]

I'll go even further - that problem with the game is that the quests are focused on two distinct abilites - the ability to rack up high damage numbers, and the ability to heal. And that basically is all. Yeah, maybe some trapping, but in many ways that's a bit of an afterthought.

The game itself lacks depth. It lacks depth because it is an online MMO. In P&P, you had spells like Clairvoyance, and Friends, and Detect Alignment that had some use depending on the situation. But those don't exist because it is near impossible to utilize those in a combat situation. (which makes up about 80% of the quests). So it's cleaves, assasinates, fingers, and nukes with heals being somewhere in the mix. Change this focus, and "balance" gets adjusted right quick. Mainly because if you need an arcane with a certain set of spells to figure out friend from foe for a quest completion, that arcane now has a whole lot of worth.

Or if you need a trapper who can sneak past stuff at a certain section of the quest without raising an alarm, that rogue / ranger becomes a valued member of the party.

And I realize the minute this happens, you'll hear a wailing about how the quests are not solo-friendly, or how the game is going downhill, or how they are ruining max XP, and so on, and so on, and so on.

it's a great game. But it is merely a shadow of what it could be.

agreed

[Gremmlynn]

I'll go even further - that problem with the game is that the quests are focused on two distinct abilites - the ability to rack up high damage numbers, and the ability to heal. And that basically is all. Yeah, maybe some trapping, but in many ways that's a bit of an afterthought.

The game itself lacks depth. It lacks depth because it is an online MMO. In P&P, you had spells like Clairvoyance, and Friends, and Detect Alignment that had some use depending on the situation. But those don't exist because it is near impossible to utilize those in a combat situation. (which makes up about 80% of the quests). So it's cleaves, assasinates, fingers, and nukes with heals being somewhere in the mix. Change this focus, and "balance" gets adjusted right quick. Mainly because if you need an arcane with a certain set of spells to figure out friend from foe for a quest completion, that arcane now has a whole lot of worth.

Or if you need a trapper who can sneak past stuff at a certain section of the quest without raising an alarm, that rogue / ranger becomes a valued member of the party.

And I realize the minute this happens, you'll hear a wailing about how the quests are not solo-friendly, or how the game is going downhill, or how they are ruining max XP, and so on, and so on, and so on.

it's a great game. But it is merely a shadow of what it could be.The problem I see with that is that those quests will only be attempted when the right character is available. Really, the closest that it is reasonable to come to that are situations like Lords of Dust, where having the right kind of character means an extra chest and opt xp without a fight.

That's not because it's not solo friendly, but it isn't even group friendly unless that group has the right build with the right skill set. As a PnP DM one can make that sort of content, as they know what the group make up is, so what characters to make those sorts of challenges for. With DDO things have to be more generic, as the group make ups and character builds can be anything.

[Darkmits]

The problem I see with that is that those quests will only be attempted when the right character is available. Really, the closest that it is reasonable to come to that are situations like Lords of Dust, where having the right kind of character means an extra chest and opt xp without a fight.

That's not because it's not solo friendly, but it isn't even group friendly unless that group has the right build with the right skill set. As a PnP DM one can make that sort of content, as they know what the group make up is, so what characters to make those sorts of challenges for. With DDO things have to be more generic, as the group make ups and character builds can be anything.But in your example, Lords of Dust makes sure it caters to both types. If you can cleanse the altars, you get xp and a chest. If you cannot cleanse the altars, you get xp and higher kill count which leads to Conquest (ie. more exp). In a sense this is similar to Disarming Traps.

The problem from my point of view is that if you do not have high score in a certain non-battle related skill, the game still allows you to complete the quest, maybe at 95% of the theoretical max of rewards. For example I finished again Reign of a Sovereign Host yesterday. I failed the Diplo check at the final boss, so I missed out about 1k xp out of the total 30k+ of the quest, but got an extra loot chest. However, if you do not have high damage, you are blocked from progressing unless you find someone who will agree to carry you. Any dps with absolute 0 non-combat skills can complete 90%+ of quests solo. A non-dps with every single non-combat skill will not be able to complete more than 20% of quests. And by non-dps I mean someone who does not invest in dps at all.

It's not that DDO has become dps-focused. This isn't a bad thing. What is bad is (tinfoil hat) that it seems the design is made so as to ensure that non-dps builds cannot progress. It's as if the developers have a checklist when creating quests with quest characteristics, with the first and most important characteristic being: Must not be completable by non-fully-dps focused builds.

[Gremmlynn]

But in your example, Lords of Dust makes sure it caters to both types. If you can cleanse the altars, you get xp and a chest. If you cannot cleanse the altars, you get xp and higher kill count which leads to Conquest (ie. more exp). In a sense this is similar to Disarming Traps.

The problem from my point of view is that if you do not have high score in a certain non-battle related skill, the game still allows you to complete the quest, maybe at 95% of the theoretical max of rewards. For example I finished again Reign of a Sovereign Host yesterday. I failed the Diplo check at the final boss, so I missed out about 1k xp out of the total 30k+ of the quest, but got an extra loot chest. However, if you do not have high damage, you are blocked from progressing unless you find someone who will agree to carry you. Any dps with absolute 0 non-combat skills can complete 90%+ of quests solo. A non-dps with every single non-combat skill will not be able to complete more than 20% of quests. And by non-dps I mean someone who does not invest in dps at all.

It's not that DDO has become dps-focused. This isn't a bad thing. What is bad is (tinfoil hat) that it seems the design is made so as to ensure that non-dps builds cannot progress. It's as if the developers have a checklist when creating quests with quest characteristics, with the first and most important characteristic being: Must not be completable by non-fully-dps focused builds.That actually makes sense to me. If every quest could be diplo'ed, or whatever, through, avoiding all combat then that would be the new FotM. One need not be fully DPS focused, but combat is pretty much the cornerstone of the game. Everything else is secondary. The reality is that DDO is an action/ fighting game.

[Gauthaag]

That actually makes sense to me. If every quest could be diplo'ed, or whatever, through, avoiding all combat then that would be the new FotM. One need not be fully DPS focused, but combat is pretty much the cornerstone of the game. Everything else is secondary. The reality is that DDO is an action/ fighting game.

but wouldnot it be nice if dps wont be always the easiest and fastest way to goal?

I understand its pretty easier to design quests to unified mob....but well that also makes the quest look the same in the end

[KoobTheProud]

It's not that DDO has become dps-focused. This isn't a bad thing. What is bad is (tinfoil hat) that it seems the design is made so as to ensure that non-dps builds cannot progress. It's as if the developers have a checklist when creating quests with quest characteristics, with the first and most important characteristic being: Must not be completable by non-fully-dps focused builds.

It's a really bad thing that DDO has become entirely DPS focused. That's what leads to inflated monster hp pools and a sense of hopelessness about trying to level a utility or healer character, let alone a dedicated tank.

I have a 12 Wizard on another server from long long ago that I would love to start leveling at this point but even with the SLA's his DPS is going to be less than half a Warlock's DPS, substantially less, and still about two-thirds of a Sorceror's DPS and there's just no point to leveling him at all. It's very slow solo and I add almost nothing that a group wants or needs in an environment in which DPS is King and everything else is the stableboy.

[nokowi]

Great ideas.

The core issue with DDO is that auto-success is too easy to achieve.

You have all mentioned non-combat skills but this also applies to character abilities (like saving throws).

Non combat skills can alter the quest if and only if there is only a CHANCE of that skill working. This means that 1/3 of the way through the quest there is some important decision. Based on the prior actions the party took, and the skill roll, the players MIGHT get a benefit (lets say the success curve caps at 70%). This needs to happen late enough in the dungeon that players don't recall for a restart. The important thing is not to allow a non-combat build that allows auto-success, or players will artificially make this a requirement. The result of failure should be taking a longer path (having an extra chest is fine), or fighting 2 end bosses at once, etc. We have a great example of this in Partycrashers (although it has the auto-succeed mechanic, and does not link the checks to prior actions in the quest).

If we look at combat, player's ability to completely neutralize save-based threat is largely what makes DPS vs healing the only thing that matters (along with no class based synergies). Mobs would be a lot more interesting if they provided this kind of challenge. The solution requires changes to the classes that autosucceed on all saves, or some new equipment mechanic that lets others catch up. Monster DC's would need a rebalance with any changes. DDO combat will be very basic unless this gets fixed.

[KoobTheProud]

There should be monsters here and there that cannot be killed by DPS but have to be circumvented by CC or insta-kills or just finding a way around them. It's the fact that DPS is always effective, with the caveat that sometimes it is dangerous also, that makes DPS the uber-scheme in DDO.

Yes, I know there are some mobs where you'd prefer to have an insta-kill, like named Beholders, however there really should be a lot of mobs that make DPS think twice about their effectiveness. There should be a lot of mobs that make DPS characters think heavily about running with more defensive benefits even if it costs them a DPS feat or two. Right now the game doesn't really support that type of decision making for end game toons.

The one class that often will trade-off a little offense for some defense is Warlocks and they can do that because their DPS is over the top no matter what.

[undercover69]

How would that work exactly?

Would we go back to the Cleric being nothing more than a Healbot, the Rogue only being there for Traps, the Bard a Buffbot etc.?
How about the poor tank who just holds down one button to block and presses a 2nd button once every 6 seconds to maintain initmidate while a couple of DPS beat on the mob's back?
Or the Wizards who absolutely HATED being CC Bots?

Or would it be 2 Major DPS toons with massive defenses doing all the work because everyone else is simply incapable of making a contribution due to mobs insane HPs, Saves, PRR etc.?

Also think about the guy who wants to play a Tank for instance but no-one will play with him because he's new and unknown while all the groups already have their go to Tanks!
Think about the Enchantment Specced Wizard who's told to DPS even though his DPS is a Joke because "We already have a CC Bot" or even worse can't even get into the Group in the first place!

We don't all have perfect Static Groups to run in and even then think of the guy who really wanted to play a Cleric but is stuck playing a Rogue because someone else is playing a Cleric!

We asked for lesser classes to be buffed so that we could contribute BUT the Devs did what they always do and went too far. Then the round of nerfs came and again they went too far, and again, and again!
We keep asking for Balance but what we always get is imbalance of a different kind!

Holy ****, I agree with Fran... (+1)

This discussion will never end while we don't get more difficulty options. If we had a button on the quest panel that allowed us to choose how many times to increase damage/hp that would be solved. Like increasing in 50% increments (50%, 100%, 150%, 200% etc more dam/hp), each increase granting +15% xp, so every group could play a dungeon tweaked for their power level. The babies would stop crying and interplanar peace would be achieved.

The problem is that there's a wide spectrum of power levels and this just can't be covered by a few static difficulty levels.

[karatemack]

It's a really bad thing that DDO has become entirely DPS focused. That's what leads to inflated monster hp pools and a sense of hopelessness about trying to level a utility or healer character, let alone a dedicated tank.

I have a 12 Wizard on another server from long long ago that I would love to start leveling at this point but even with the SLA's his DPS is going to be less than half a Warlock's DPS, substantially less, and still about two-thirds of a Sorceror's DPS and there's just no point to leveling him at all. It's very slow solo and I add almost nothing that a group wants or needs in an environment in which DPS is King and everything else is the stableboy.

Insidious Cunning Bonus 10%
Ingenious Debilitation Bonus 30%
Vigilant Sight Bonus 15%
Ransack Bonus 15%

That's a 70% bonus to xp which is not based upon DPS.


With that said, I'm not convinced that most players want quests which aren't "kill all the things". A few examples come to mind (in no way is this an exhaustive list) such as:

The Pit (many avoid this quest because it's too "confusing")
Ghost of a Chance (when's the last time you were in a group which chose to solve the puzzle?)
Spies in the House (I know a few people who hate this quest, one of the easiest quests to run with really high xp yield... so long as you got some mario skillz)

On the other hand there are quests like the Abbot raid, which was not strictly about DPS, encouraged group play and frequently ended in fail yet was very popular.

I do like a few of the ideas in this thread... have diplo/intim/etc check which have consequences for failing. Rather than the "let me re-roll this until I get a 20" mechanic. I also enjoy quests which offer additional optional xp. The only issue I see with this is that all too often the optional xp is insulting (especially in low-mid level content) and so after the first run or so most people wind up skipping the optionals.

So yeah, there could be additional incentive to xp built into quests for non-dps playstyles, but to argue that the game is entirely DPS focused is wrong.

[KoobTheProud]

Insidious Cunning Bonus 10%
Ingenious Debilitation Bonus 30%
Vigilant Sight Bonus 15%
Ransack Bonus 15%

That's a 70% bonus to xp which is not based upon DPS.




The point about DPS being King is that it is always effective and the answer to most problems is getting more of it. The bonuses you mentioned above are worthwhile but almost nobody will choose to take twice as long to fill them out if they can just do a DPS speed run.

In truth this does go back to Arcanes and Divines using Firewall and Blade Barrier before dungeon alert existed. However it was the wrong path to go down then for the game and unfortunately it has become the main path for everybody now.

The game would be much better if it was more of a game and less of a speed grind. Much, much, better.

[janave]

Insidious Cunning Bonus 10%
Ingenious Debilitation Bonus 30%
Vigilant Sight Bonus 15%
Ransack Bonus 15%

That's a 70% bonus to xp which is not based upon DPS.


Due to mainly kill to progress quests, its hard to get even the 7% stealth bonus, which is complete lame - the only thing fun and skill based left in the game is the least rewarding.

Trap, Detection, and Ransack bonus not always toppable, and often exclusive with the stealth bonus unless you wanna have hours at a single instance, and even then your exp rate vs fullblastaoezerg is bogus.

Very few instances allow you to realistically get near that 70%.

[karatemack]

The bonuses you mentioned above are worthwhile but almost nobody will choose to take twice as long to fill them out if they can just do a DPS speed run.

Not to quote mine you, but this is absolutely true. DPS will ALWAYS be "faster". That was true even in PnP. Roleplaying took a LONG time. The point is that there IS xp out there for things other than DPS. It's all how you choose to play the content. (I nearly always get at least conquest/ransack/debilitation bonuses.)



Due to mainly kill to progress quests, its hard to get even the 7% stealth bonus, which is complete lame - the only thing fun and skill based left in the game is the least rewarding.

Trap, Detection, and Ransack bonus not always toppable, and often exclusive with the stealth bonus unless you wanna have hours at a single instance, and even then your exp rate vs fullblastaoezerg is bogus.

Very few instances allow you to realistically get near that 70%.

These are all valid points. I agree the stealth bonus (which is very difficult to achieve in many quests) could be more heavily rewarded. I also agree that it's frustrating when you can't top out disable/detection/ransack bonuses. These are issues I believe the DEVs should address. I would also like them to put a little more meat in some the optional quest objectives.

[Gauthaag]

Insidious Cunning Bonus 10%
Ingenious Debilitation Bonus 30%
Vigilant Sight Bonus 15%
Ransack Bonus 15%

That's a 70% bonus to xp which is not based upon DPS.


With that said, I'm not convinced that most players want quests which aren't "kill all the things". A few examples come to mind (in no way is this an exhaustive list) such as:

The Pit (many avoid this quest because it's too "confusing")
Ghost of a Chance (when's the last time you were in a group which chose to solve the puzzle?)
Spies in the House (I know a few people who hate this quest, one of the easiest quests to run with really high xp yield... so long as you got some mario skillz)

On the other hand there are quests like the Abbot raid, which was not strictly about DPS, encouraged group play and frequently ended in fail yet was very popular.

I do like a few of the ideas in this thread... have diplo/intim/etc check which have consequences for failing. Rather than the "let me re-roll this until I get a 20" mechanic. I also enjoy quests which offer additional optional xp. The only issue I see with this is that all too often the optional xp is insulting (especially in low-mid level content) and so after the first run or so most people wind up skipping the optionals.

So yeah, there could be additional incentive to xp built into quests for non-dps playstyles, but to argue that the game is entirely DPS focused is wrong.

that's nice, but those are bonuses u ll get after u complete the quest....so no matter what approach u choose theres still dps at the end.

and just fyi - I run pit, ghost (w puzzle) and spies as those are great xp quests if u know the way. And I hate the abbot, despite having more like hundred completions :) imho only reason it was run was not, it was fun or challenging, but because the loot was outstanding.

[Gauthaag]

How would that work exactly?

Would we go back to the Cleric being nothing more than a Healbot, the Rogue only being there for Traps, the Bard a Buffbot etc.?
How about the poor tank who just holds down one button to block and presses a 2nd button once every 6 seconds to maintain initmidate while a couple of DPS beat on the mob's back?
Or the Wizards who absolutely HATED being CC Bots?

Or would it be 2 Major DPS toons with massive defenses doing all the work because everyone else is simply incapable of making a contribution due to mobs insane HPs, Saves, PRR etc.?

Also think about the guy who wants to play a Tank for instance but no-one will play with him because he's new and unknown while all the groups already have their go to Tanks!
Think about the Enchantment Specced Wizard who's told to DPS even though his DPS is a Joke because "We already have a CC Bot" or even worse can't even get into the Group in the first place!

We don't all have perfect Static Groups to run in and even then think of the guy who really wanted to play a Cleric but is stuck playing a Rogue because someone else is playing a Cleric!

We asked for lesser classes to be buffed so that we could contribute BUT the Devs did what they always do and went too far. Then the round of nerfs came and again they went too far, and again, and again!
We keep asking for Balance but what we always get is imbalance of a different kind!

this will always be a problem if people wil make one trick ponnies. the game became dumbed down because of crybabies wanting everything. there always was an option to get self sustaining toon, even without giving healing ability to every class.

[Darkmits]

It's a really bad thing that DDO has become entirely DPS focused. That's what leads to inflated monster hp pools and a sense of hopelessness about trying to level a utility or healer character, let alone a dedicated tank.But monster hp pools should be considered inflated only if it takes a surprising high amount of time to kill them. Outside of bosses, most enemies do not survive more than 5-7 seconds after you start focusing on them. Coming from other mainstream MMOs, this is very low.


I have a 12 Wizard on another server from long long ago that I would love to start leveling at this point but even with the SLA's his DPS is going to be less than half a Warlock's DPS, substantially less, and still about two-thirds of a Sorceror's DPS and there's just no point to leveling him at all. It's very slow solo and I add almost nothing that a group wants or needs in an environment in which DPS is King and everything else is the stableboy.I think you should give it a try. I'm levelling as a Spellsinger Bard (with only 22 out of the total of 46 Enhancement points so far in the tree) and Shout SLA alone nearly kills non-boss mobs, without having even min-maxed for that. Problem being that when both Shout and Sonic Blast are on cd, and having no other means of significant damage, any healer type enemy that has survived will heal back to max by the time Shout becomes available again.

Regarding the issue about one-trick ponnies, there is nothing wrong with players wanting to play a single type (dps or healer or tank or buffbot or whatever). What is wrong is that if you do not want to play dps, you are not going to have progress that will keep you up with dps players, regardless of how awesome are zerging you can be. I can understand that this is natural; the quests are mostly filled with hp bags that need to be reduced to 0. A dps has very effective ways of being kept alive through self-healing, and lacking that through hirelings that can reach 100% effective healing of a healer player (and sometimes even better due to no need for reflexes). A non-healer does not have an effective way of dealing damage similarily. The best damage-dealing hirelings at level deal approximately 20% of the average dps player.

[Gremmlynn]

but wouldnot it be nice if dps wont be always the easiest and fastest way to goal?

I understand its pretty easier to design quests to unified mob....but well that also makes the quest look the same in the endIt isn't always the fastest. But it's always an option.

Having several things that sometimes are right and one thing that is always an alternative is really the only way to give everyone access to everything. While some might not see that as necessary from their perspective of how the game should be. For Turbine, the ability of their customers to access the product they are selling them would seem to be rather important.

[Gremmlynn]

this will always be a problem if people wil make one trick ponnies. the game became dumbed down because of crybabies wanting everything. there always was an option to get self sustaining toon, even without giving healing ability to every class.The problem is that the game makes one trick ponies to good, which forces the devs to adjust the game, or try anyway, to that level. This leads to mobs with ridiculous DCs, to many hps, etc., to compensate. DPS is likely the worst offender in this as there are so many DPS things that stack.

[burlicconi]

I think that the topic went a little bit off topic, since we're describing how DPS is important while OP says how uninteresting is playing in 6 ppl group.

Those 2 things are connected, since one player can DPS whole quest now, but consequence of that is the problem that groups how have- how easy heroic levels become. Not so fun anymore... Except for quests like The Pit or Crucible or so...

[Gauthaag]

I think that the topic went a little bit off topic, since we're describing how DPS is important while OP says how uninteresting is playing in 6 ppl group.

Those 2 things are connected, since one player can DPS whole quest now, but consequence of that is the problem that groups how have- how easy heroic levels become. Not so fun anymore... Except for quests like The Pit or Crucible or so...

where actually something more than raw power is needed, exactly:)

then read some threads about crucible or pit to find how many people hate those ...and u ll know why we have the game dumbed down

[Gremmlynn]

where actually something more than raw power is needed, exactly:)

then read some threads about crucible or pit to find how many people hate those ...and u ll know why we have the game dumbed downI don't like Crucible, but not for that reason. What I don't like about it is that it has lever pull type mechanics to try to enforce grouping, yet most of the challenges are based around single players, with nothing for the rest to do meanwhile. It would make for an excellent solo adventure if it didn't require lackeys to pull levers or turn wheels though. The Pits okay if one's graphics card can keep up with the air jets though.

[burlicconi]

where actually something more than raw power is needed, exactly:)

then read some threads about crucible or pit to find how many people hate those ...and u ll know why we have the game dumbed down


I don't like Crucible, but not for that reason. What I don't like about it is that it has lever pull type mechanics to try to enforce grouping, yet most of the challenges are based around single players, with nothing for the rest to do meanwhile. It would make for an excellent solo adventure if it didn't require lackeys to pull levers or turn wheels though. The Pits okay if one's graphics card can keep up with the air jets though.

Generally, that types of quests are not made to be liked by everybody- it will be either "favourite" or "most hated" quest. Blood Road from HouseD is also good quest for me, but The Pit still is at 1st place...

I would like to see more of those kind of quests...

[Gauthaag]

I don't like Crucible, but not for that reason. What I don't like about it is that it has lever pull type mechanics to try to enforce grouping, yet most of the challenges are based around single players, with nothing for the rest to do meanwhile. It would make for an excellent solo adventure if it didn't require lackeys to pull levers or turn wheels though. The Pits okay if one's graphics card can keep up with the air jets though.

if it would be made soloable, I could easily imagine the outcry, that not every class can easily do trap run or swim:)

[Darkmits]

if it would be made soloable, I could easily imagine the outcry, that not every class can easily do trap run or swim:)Um, Crucible IS soloable. Just one single lvl1 hireling, Dimension Door and a good Underwater/Swim item allow you to complete the entire quest with all optionals. Yes, this includes the "hidden" maze chest. Now of course my meaning of soloable means that you get to do the quest, but not at an amazing xp/min ratio. But it is still 100% possible to see the words "Quest Completed" solo.

Pit is also 100% soloable with all optionals. Just takes more time as usual.


I think that the topic went a little bit off topic, since we're describing how DPS is important while OP says how uninteresting is playing in 6 ppl group. Those 2 things are connected, since one player can DPS whole quest now, but consequence of that is the problem that groups how have- how easy heroic levels become. Not so fun anymore... Except for quests like The Pit or Crucible or so...They are connected in the sense that since one player can dps everything, the other players are just left following. As I described earlier (or possibly in another thread), monster hp scaling as group size increases is not high enough to allow all players to feel involved. Even assuming a group of 1 dedicated tank, 1 dedicated healer, 1 dedicated trapper/utility and 3 damage dealers, mob hp increases by at most 100% compared to soloing. This means that outside of red-names and possibly champions, everything still dies too quickly since at least on heroic levels and low epics, player abilities can deal enough damage to instakill. It's the problem that you see an enemy alive, you select it and an ability, and that enemy has died before your ability fires off. I don't know about the rest of you who say "why would I complain about ez xp", but I want to feel that I contribute in a group, and this current paradigm just makes me feel useless.

[Gauthaag]

I guess this thread soon develops into ...but sure we want more challenge but ofc with more challenge we want more rewards:)

[FranOhmsford]

Um, Crucible IS soloable. Just one single lvl1 hireling, Dimension Door and a good Underwater/Swim item allow you to complete the entire quest with all optionals. Yes, this includes the "hidden" maze chest. Now of course my meaning of soloable means that you get to do the quest, but not at an amazing xp/min ratio. But it is still 100% possible to see the words "Quest Completed" solo.

The Maze in my view simply isn't soloable even with a hireling - Picking up a crest removes the target on the lever and the hireling even standing on top of the lever will not pull it once you've lost the target.

Also - Hirelings have an annoying habit of moving away from the lever after using it as the stand your ground button sometimes unlocks.

You can complete Crucible with a dual-box alt easily enough.

[Qhualor]

The Maze in my view simply isn't soloable even with a hireling - Picking up a crest removes the target on the lever and the hireling even standing on top of the lever will not pull it once you've lost the target.

Also - Hirelings have an annoying habit of moving away from the lever after using it as the stand your ground button sometimes unlocks.

You can complete Crucible with a dual-box alt easily enough.

if you lost the target, you can still tell them to pull levers. there is only 2 hires I know of that still move when standing ground and that is level 16 Natasha in POP and level 15 Jatrina in Maze.

[Darkmits]

The Maze in my view simply isn't soloable even with a hireling - Picking up a crest removes the target on the lever and the hireling even standing on top of the lever will not pull it once you've lost the target.Which is where Dimension Door comes into play. When you lose a lever as target and can't retarget it, you effectively teleport to the start of the maze. It took me 2 Dimensior Doors last life for the actual maze, and a 3rd one for the chest behind an "I" door near the exit of the maze.

Still not amazing xp/min. Not even average xp/min. But definitely soloable.

[Gremmlynn]

if it would be made soloable, I could easily imagine the outcry, that not every class can easily do trap run or swim:)That's actually the issue with it. Most runs I've done, it was basically one person doing the trials and basically soloing those parts for the group. While the rest waited, or simply pulled levels when asked.

[Darkmits]

That's actually the issue with it. Most runs I've done, it was basically one person doing the trials and basically soloing those parts for the group. While the rest waited, or simply pulled levels when asked.Actually, I think that Crucible is one of the "ideal" quests. It can be soloed as there is evidence in that. It is definitely not advisable to solo it because it's too much of a hassle, both from a preparation point of view as well as from the actual time spent in the quest. It takes so much longer to solo from my point of view that if a group of 3 start the Crucible half hour after a solo player, the group of 3 will complete it first.

-=edit=-
The only cases I can see someone wanting to solo the Crucible is if it's the last lvl13 quest they have for Elite BB while they're lvl15 with banking lvl16 xp, or someone who just doesn't like grouping. In all other cases, it saves too much of a headache to just say "**** it, I'll do it when I find a group"

[Qhualor]

That's actually the issue with it. Most runs I've done, it was basically one person doing the trials and basically soloing those parts for the group. While the rest waited, or simply pulled levels when asked.

this is the misconception that only 1 particular build can do the trials. in the dozens upon dozens of Crucible runs ive done, only twice has anyone used the water flow valve under water. its preferable evasion do the run through the traps to get the horn behind the door, but ive done it myself and seen others do it without evasion. yeah, you might die a couple times but who cares? build doesn't matter when doing the maze and turning the wheels. the only trial that needs a fix is the wisdom check. these days, most players don't have a low enough wisdom and I haven't seen anyone with a high enough wisdom. that is the only trial I could see where you prefer to have a certain build by opening the same door over and over until you get the horn.

[Gauthaag]

the only trial that needs a fix is the wisdom check. these days, most players don't have a low enough wisdom and I haven't seen anyone with a high enough wisdom. that is the only trial I could see where you prefer to have a certain build by opening the same door over and over until you get the horn.

why - its after all same trial as trap one - as u stated u can die couple times who cares? wheres the difference?

[Qhualor]

why - its after all same trial as trap one - as u stated u can die couple times who cares? wheres the difference?

the difference is one you can jump and run fast through/past the traps to get the horn. you may die inside the horn room picking it up, but once you get there you have time to heal up. the wisdom check door has traps all around it. you could possibly jump back in time, but usually you take damage. if you are unlucky opening the door multiple times in a row, you could require a lot of healing. the fact that a lot of players wont have the required wisdom check to find the right door means having to open the same door multiple times is the only thing that needs addressing. most cases we are unable to run the wisdom trial as intended by no fault of our own. times have changed since the quest was designed.

[KoobTheProud]

I guess this thread soon develops into ...but sure we want more challenge but ofc with more challenge we want more rewards:)

How about we want content that makes us play hard to get things done, that always leaves something just beyond our reach and that provides ways to get to that something eventually if we play hard?

MMO's were great because they were a never-ending game. Now MMO's are a never ending grind against content that is easily beatable and essentially boring to play.

[Darkmits]

How about we want content that makes us play hard to get things done, that always leaves something just beyond our reach and that provides ways to get to that something eventually if we play hard?

MMO's were great because they were a never-ending game. Now MMO's are a never ending grind against content that is easily beatable and essentially boring to play.Because that slightly-out-of-reach reward will either be acquired through grinding to max out one's stats, or through QQ from lots of players who cannot get it. That's how we got soloable Elites in the first place.

[KoobTheProud]

Because that slightly-out-of-reach reward will either be acquired through grinding to max out one's stats, or through QQ from lots of players who cannot get it. That's how we got soloable Elites in the first place.

I'm pretty sure we got soloable Elites in the first place because there were a few exploiter builds who could manage many of them any way, the game went F2P/P2P and Turbine wanted as many players as possible to keep playing and most importantly everybody lost sight of the fact that once Elites became just hard the game was a completely different animal that among other things did not require grouping for anything but endgame raids.

Being able to solo Elite level content isn't a selling point for long unless you're one of the people who wants to do that just for the XP boost from Bravery Bonuses. Being able to stomp Elite raid content isn't a selling point for long unless you're one of the people who wants to feel elite without the actual skills to be elite. All the people who are actually elite are going to move on fairly quickly once Elite doesn't mean anything any more and that's what's happened to DDO and the player population.

Turbine should work on creating good content that is satisfying to play on Normal for casual solo players. They should be making Hard content for dedicated, skilled solo players and casual groups. Elite should be not soloable and only available to dedicated, skilled groups. Epic Casual should be available for casual players to look around and see the content. Epic Normal should satisfying to play for dedicated, skilled solo players and casual groups. Epic Hard should not be soloable and and only available to dedicated, skilled groups. Epic Elite should only be available to highly skilled elite groups. Legendary Casual should be available for casual players to look around and see the content. Legendary Normal should be available dedicated, skilled groups. Legendary Hard should be available highly, skilled elite groups. Legendary Elite should be unbeatable. I mean if you can beat it the devs hat is off to you.

There's no better way to build a player base than to give them content that they can't easily beat that is entertaining to play. People will keep trying to beat that content until they succeed, at which point you're ready for the next iteration. There are no amount of casual players in the market that are going to keep a 10 year old game alive for long. There are too many options out there and most of them are fighting just as hard for the casual market as DDO is, with substantially better marketing budgets to do so.

DDO's growth base is new D&D players and ex players of DDO. Neither of those groups is going to be at all interested in Disneyland or Farmville.

[Gremmlynn]

Actually, I think that Crucible is one of the "ideal" quests. It can be soloed as there is evidence in that. It is definitely not advisable to solo it because it's too much of a hassle, both from a preparation point of view as well as from the actual time spent in the quest. It takes so much longer to solo from my point of view that if a group of 3 start the Crucible half hour after a solo player, the group of 3 will complete it first.

-=edit=-
The only cases I can see someone wanting to solo the Crucible is if it's the last lvl13 quest they have for Elite BB while they're lvl15 with banking lvl16 xp, or someone who just doesn't like grouping. In all other cases, it saves too much of a headache to just say "**** it, I'll do it when I find a group"You miss my point. A three man Crucible, in many places, is one playing and two playing hirelings, or just waiting. Even if they divide up who is playing the various parts, it's a bad quest IMO when any player has to play as a hireling. I see it the same in any quest like that, if the work around for a group mechanic is to use a hireling, it's a bad mechanic as it is designed to make a player present to do a job a hire can do.

Maybe I'm strange, but I don't play DDO to pull levers and such so someone else can play the game. Nor do I expect another player to do that for me.

[Gremmlynn]

this is the misconception that only 1 particular build can do the trials. in the dozens upon dozens of Crucible runs ive done, only twice has anyone used the water flow valve under water. its preferable evasion do the run through the traps to get the horn behind the door, but ive done it myself and seen others do it without evasion. yeah, you might die a couple times but who cares? build doesn't matter when doing the maze and turning the wheels. the only trial that needs a fix is the wisdom check. these days, most players don't have a low enough wisdom and I haven't seen anyone with a high enough wisdom. that is the only trial I could see where you prefer to have a certain build by opening the same door over and over until you get the horn.It doesn't matter what build can do it. The point is, one player plays and the rest wait, or pull levers, or whatever regardless of their builds. That's poor game design IMO.

[Gremmlynn]

How about we want content that makes us play hard to get things done, that always leaves something just beyond our reach and that provides ways to get to that something eventually if we play hard?

MMO's were great because they were a never-ending game. Now MMO's are a never ending grind against content that is easily beatable and essentially boring to play.Because people are different. What's just beyond one players reach is easy for another and unimaginable for yet another. MMOs try to actually remove as much player skill as possible as they aren't in a position to balance it. It's not about what makes a better or worse game. It's what makes a game for the largest possible customer base. Because what's better or worse is completely subjective.

[Qhualor]

It doesn't matter what build can do it. The point is, one player plays and the rest wait, or pull levers, or whatever regardless of their builds. That's poor game design IMO.

No. I pointed out the error in that mentality. You don't need evasion to do the swim. Someone can use the underwater water flow valve . You don't need evasion to run past the traps to get the horn, though I can understand the preference. There is a shrine below if you die and can try again. You don't need evasion to do the maze. You don't need evasion to turn the wheels. Anyone can participate. Take turns. You can't blame game design if you won't be proactive and not utilize the workarounds that are in place. The only part that is borked is the wisdom trial since most players these days won't have a low enough wisdom and most won't have a high enough wisdom.

[KoobTheProud]

Because people are different. What's just beyond one players reach is easy for another and unimaginable for yet another. MMOs try to actually remove as much player skill as possible as they aren't in a position to balance it. It's not about what makes a better or worse game. It's what makes a game for the largest possible customer base. Because what's better or worse is completely subjective.

Farmville has the widest possible customer base. It can be played from 4 or 5 to 104 or 105.

Think about it.

[KoobTheProud]

You miss my point. A three man Crucible, in many places, is one playing and two playing hirelings, or just waiting. Even if they divide up who is playing the various parts, it's a bad quest IMO when any player has to play as a hireling. I see it the same in any quest like that, if the work around for a group mechanic is to use a hireling, it's a bad mechanic as it is designed to make a player present to do a job a hire can do.

Maybe I'm strange, but I don't play DDO to pull levers and such so someone else can play the game. Nor do I expect another player to do that for me.

Quests that are multi-player just because players need to be in different places at the same time are generally bad quests. They become solo quests with enough hirelings.

Quests should be multi-player due to the difficulty of the quest when approached at or near level at the harder difficulty levels.

Right now DDO is satisfying nobody but the casual players, except for an increasingly short interval after each update. That means that when the updates stop it will only be satisfying the casual players and I doubt that those guys either subscribe for the most part or spend a lot in the DDO store.

I'll amend the first part of the statement above to the people who just can't get off the TR track whatever they do. If you're an OCD perfectionist then you're probably fairly satisfied with the state of DDO at the moment because you don't care about the game as much as the state of your character and you can always keep improving that.

[Gremmlynn]

No. I pointed out the error in that mentality. You don't need evasion to do the swim.Yes they can, but it's any ONE. While everyone could do the swim, the quest parameters don't support doing so.
Someone can use the underwater water flow valve .Yes someone can play a hireling there, but who wants to play a hireling.
You don't need evasion to run past the traps to get the horn, though I can understand the preference.Again, one runs and up to 5 sit on their thumbs.
There is a shrine below if you die and can try again. You don't need evasion to do the maze.No you just need a couple hirelings or plays playing hirelings.
You don't need evasion to turn the wheels. Anyone can participate. Take turns. You can't blame game design if you won't be proactive and not utilize the workarounds that are in place.I don't blame anything, I just don't run the quest. Just like I don't blame vegan restaurants for not serving meat, I just spend my money elsewhere.
The only part that is borked is the wisdom trial since most players these days won't have a low enough wisdom and most won't have a high enough wisdom.To each their own, I find much of that quest borked as it doesn't keep everyone meaningfully involved throughout.

[Gremmlynn]

Farmville has the widest possible customer base. It can be played from 4 or 5 to 104 or 105.

Think about it.How many play it?

[KoobTheProud]

How many play it?

21 million daily users as of August 2015.

The big complaint on their Facebook page? Zynga is making the game too easy and that's why the daily users has dropped from 39 million to 21 million over the course of 3 years.

I would suggest that they started with a very low bar in terms of skill and knowledge to succeed at the game to attract the widest possible customer base and then they started lowering the bar even further to get more money out of the game and in the process they lost customers, which is what you would expect to happen, since you will never attract as many new customers with this type of move as you will lose from your established customer base.

BTW, with the 21 million daily users in August 2015 Zynga was expecting a $150M loss on the game for the year.

When you lower your play standards to increase your customer base you're just making your competitors look better in the process.

[Qhualor]

Yes they can, but it's any ONE. While everyone could do the swim, the quest parameters don't support doing so.Yes someone can play a hireling there, but who wants to play a hireling.Again, one runs and up to 5 sit on their thumbs.No you just need a couple hirelings or plays playing hirelings.I don't blame anything, I just don't run the quest. Just like I don't blame vegan restaurants for not serving meat, I just spend my money elsewhere. To each their own, I find much of that quest borked as it doesn't keep everyone meaningfully involved throughout.

no, everybody can go and do the swim except for the guy doing the valve.

its a group effort so the guy or guys that are swimming can get through the water easier. maybe the guy pulling the valve was the guy that led the group through the maze? maybe he ran through the traps to get the horn. the last thing I here in a group running Crucible is they have to be a "hireling". usually I see 2 or 3 players running to the valves in the maze. pretty weak counter argument there.

everybody can run through the traps to get the horn. its not coded so only one has to go. ive seen players without evasion run through the traps faster than the evasion build because the evasion couldn't get to the door fast enough. again, I don't ever hear complaints because they have to wait 5 seconds for someone to get the horn.

you need 1 hire or pet or another player. once again, I don't hear players complain when they gun right straight for the valve. take turns if you want to participate in getting horns? when K is done you don't need to keep sitting on it while the guys are over on H side getting the horn. there is a wiki page that tells you a direct route to get the horns and how to get out of the maze and telling how many times to turn the valves.

no, the entire group can participate. the problem is they choose not to rather play hirelings and than come to the forums and give weak reasonings and complain about game design. its because of that is why Crucible lost its flagging status.

[Gremmlynn]

21 million daily users as of August 2015.

The big complaint on their Facebook page? Zynga is making the game too easy and that's why the daily users has dropped from 39 million to 21 million over the course of 3 years.

I would suggest that they started with a very low bar in terms of skill and knowledge to succeed at the game to attract the widest possible customer base and then they started lowering the bar even further to get more money out of the game and in the process they lost customers, which is what you would expect to happen, since you will never attract as many new customers with this type of move as you will lose from your established customer base.That tells me it's a good game, by the only standard that matters.

What you or I want from a game really doesn't matter as you and I aren't making games. The people who are making them are making them to maximize profits, so that's the standard games are made to.

[Gremmlynn]

no, everybody can go and do the swim except for the guy doing the valve.Nobody has to get that valve and many players don't even know it's there.


its a group effort so the guy or guys that are swimming can get through the water easier. maybe the guy pulling the valve was the guy that led the group through the maze? maybe he ran through the traps to get the horn. the last thing I here in a group running Crucible is they have to be a "hireling". usually I see 2 or 3 players running to the valves in the maze. pretty weak counter argument there.

everybody can run through the traps to get the horn. its not coded so only one has to go. ive seen players without evasion run through the traps faster than the evasion build because the evasion couldn't get to the door fast enough. again, I don't ever hear complaints because they have to wait 5 seconds for someone to get the horn.

[quote]you need 1 hire or pet or another player.The fact that you say this just proves my point. You need one hire or pet or someone willing to do a job best left to a hire or pet. Maybe you find clicking your mouse on command to be a satisfying use of your time, Not everybody does. Want to fix that, make defending the valve required so that any hire or pet would be overwhelmed and a real player actually plays. Want to fix the other challenges, basically do the same thing. Quest fixed!
once again, I don't hear players complain when they gun right straight for the valve. take turns if you want to participate in getting horns? when K is done you don't need to keep sitting on it while the guys are over on H side getting the horn. there is a wiki page that tells you a direct route to get the horns and how to get out of the maze and telling how many times to turn the valves.

no, the entire group can participate. the problem is they choose not to rather play hirelings and than come to the forums and give weak reasonings and complain about game design. its because of that is why Crucible lost its flagging status.Crucible losing it's flagging status was one of the wiser moves the devs have made actually. You see, it doesn't matter one iota to them if we run it or not. But it does matter to them if many of their customers don't want to feel compelled to do a "love it or hate it" quest.

[KoobTheProud]

That tells me it's a good game, by the only standard that matters.

What you or I want from a game really doesn't matter as you and I aren't making games. The people who are making them are making them to maximize profits, so that's the standard games are made to.

If you're a gamer who likes complex ongoing games it's terrible because complexity is sacrificed to the lowest common denominator of players that might possibly be induced to play the game.

By definition the lowest common denominator is a good business practice if you get the formula right. If you have 21 million subscribers clearly you got the formula right at some point and marketed well and have avoided critical shortfalls in the management of the franchise.

If you're where DDO lives you've probably done less optimally in any number of areas related to the marketing and management of the game and at that point moving towards lowest common denominator business practices is unlikely to bail you out.

D&D is a past time generally enjoyed by geeky, intelligent people who want to both roleplay and be challenged. Sometimes they're in it to tell a story or have one told to them. Very few are in it because it's easy and they can be good at it as a result. Those guys tend to look in other places for their fun.

[Darkmits]

You miss my point. A three man Crucible, in many places, is one playing and two playing hirelings, or just waiting. Even if they divide up who is playing the various parts, it's a bad quest IMO when any player has to play as a hireling.We also have the alternative in a lot more quests, where players divide up who is going where and each do their own part. But to me that doesn't feel like grouping. It feels like soloing in the same instance.

The issue that Crucible groups are mostly one player doing the work and the others just moving levers and stuff isn't due to the design of the dungeon; it's because players, going for the "path of least resistance", select the one who knows it best to do the chores while they afk to get the same reward.


The big complaint on their Facebook page? Zynga is making the game too easy and that's why the daily users has dropped from 39 million to 21 million over the course of 3 years.I must be oblivious, but what exactly is challenging in Farmville outside of running out of your daily energy? I have never played Farmville, but it seems like the game where there is no such thing as "You lost" or "Try again"

[Gremmlynn]

We also have the alternative in a lot more quests, where players divide up who is going where and each do their own part. But to me that doesn't feel like grouping. It feels like soloing in the same instance.

The issue that Crucible groups are mostly one player doing the work and the others just moving levers and stuff isn't due to the design of the dungeon; it's because players, going for the "path of least resistance", select the one who knows it best to do the chores while they afk to get the same reward.Um, no. It's because someone has to pull those levers and because it makes no sense to risk several people dying in the water, or several people to run the traps when they are likely to get in each others way. That's pretty much how it was designed to be run.

But Crucible really isn't an issue as it's easy enough to just skip it now.

[burlicconi]

I don't value quests by being soloable or not. I value them simply "fun", "more fun", "great fun" or "meh"..

Criteria is very simple- when first time play quest w/o reading Wiki spoilers with my group, how much fun did we have. Based on that criteria, I can underline some quests that had "special treatment" by my group: The Pit, Crucible, Spies, In The Belly of the Beast, Temple of EE, all three quests in Rever Refugee...

What is common for all these quests? We need several hours to complete some of them (The Pit completed in 3-4 hours without any Wiki spoliers) and we eventally did it. I remember reactions of two friends of mine- first said how good quests is, second said that he will never played this quest again. Five years afterwards, it is favourite quest of all 3 of us.

Crucible should be great example of team play. I want to believe that person who can easily solo it is little indicator that game is broken, because one person probably should not be able to complete maze, swim, killing all mobs, test of cunning... Maybe if he is just skilled (evasion based), but that should be limited number of ppl.

I know that Turbine tends that new quests should me medium with great loot, but I think that every AP should offer us some of these quests where teamwork should matter. It doesn't have to be in main story line (I welcomed switching Crucible for Cabal of One), but should offer fun for "old scholl team-based" players.

[Qhualor]

Nobody has to get that valve and many players don't even know it's there.

[quote]its a group effort so the guy or guys that are swimming can get through the water easier. maybe the guy pulling the valve was the guy that led the group through the maze? maybe he ran through the traps to get the horn. the last thing I here in a group running Crucible is they have to be a "hireling". usually I see 2 or 3 players running to the valves in the maze. pretty weak counter argument there.

everybody can run through the traps to get the horn. its not coded so only one has to go. ive seen players without evasion run through the traps faster than the evasion build because the evasion couldn't get to the door fast enough. again, I don't ever hear complaints because they have to wait 5 seconds for someone to get the horn.

The fact that you say this just proves my point. You need one hire or pet or someone willing to do a job best left to a hire or pet. Maybe you find clicking your mouse on command to be a satisfying use of your time, Not everybody does. Want to fix that, make defending the valve required so that any hire or pet would be overwhelmed and a real player actually plays. Want to fix the other challenges, basically do the same thing. Quest fixed! Crucible losing it's flagging status was one of the wiser moves the devs have made actually. You see, it doesn't matter one iota to them if we run it or not. But it does matter to them if many of their customers don't want to feel compelled to do a "love it or hate it" quest.

right, nobody HAS to get the valve. you have the option to use it or not. don't complain if you choose not to use it by saying only one build or one player does the swim. ive been in many groups that know about the valve and I even bring it up. there are a lot more players that know about it than don't I believe, but some players pride themselves doing the swim without it. you know its there, but you still complain.

I proved your point that someone needs to turn the valve. its no different than any other quest that requires teamwork like some Necro quests for example. the issue ive seen you have over the years is that you are against quests that cant be soloable or requires another player, pet or hire to do things that was designed for group play. in a roundabout way, you are against grouping quests that encouraged multiple players. you are looking at the "hire must turn valve while someone does all the work" too specifically. do you complain because someone is tanking in a raid and hes having all the fun? do you complain because you are on crystal duty in Shroud piking while the rest of the group is doing all the work? do you complain because in some other quests you have to get a hire or put up an lfm for lever pulling in certain quests? where are those complaints about those quests?

quests are subjective. what you dislike, I might like. the problem was that players had the same mentality as you that only one player did all the work and they chose not to participate, learn the maze, use the underwater valve for the swim and just complain about it. it was bad for Turbine because it showed how weak they were by giving in to some vocal complainers.

[Gremmlynn]

right, nobody HAS to get the valve. you have the option to use it or not. don't complain if you choose not to use it by saying only one build or one player does the swim. ive been in many groups that know about the valve and I even bring it up. there are a lot more players that know about it than don't I believe, but some players pride themselves doing the swim without it. you know its there, but you still complain.My complaint is that turning a valve is a good job for a brainless hireling, not something I would consider to be quality game play.


I proved your point that someone needs to turn the valve. its no different than any other quest that requires teamwork like some Necro quests for example.If your idea of a good time is turning valves on command from someone else who is actually playing a video game, then more power to you. To my mind, it's **** poor game design if all playing that part of the game involves is clicking my mouse when it's asked for.
the issue ive seen you have over the years is that you are against quests that cant be soloable or requires another player, pet or hire to do things that was designed for group play.I have no problem with quests that need a hire as that is something that is always available to me in the game.
in a roundabout way, you are against grouping quests that encouraged multiple players. you are looking at the "hire must turn valve while someone does all the work" too specifically. do you complain because someone is tanking in a raid and hes having all the fun?If the tank is the only designed to have fun, then yes I would see that as worthy of a complaint as well as poorly designed. Would you go to a restaurant where only one of the party gets to eat, while all are expected to pay? This game is something each of us is expected to pay for, so should be designed for all of us to get our moneys worth.
do you complain because you are on crystal duty in Shroud piking while the rest of the group is doing all the work?I've never been on crystal duty, frankly could tell you where the crystal is. If someone asked me to join their group just to do that, or to pull levers or anything like that, I would decline though.[/quote] do you complain because in some other quests you have to get a hire or put up an lfm for lever pulling in certain quests? where are those complaints about those quests?[/quote]I'd get a hire. I'd never ask someone to play the part of a hire. It's why I never ask anyone to come along to heal or buff.


quests are subjective. what you dislike, I might like. the problem was that players had the same mentality as you that only one player did all the work and they chose not to participate, learn the maze, use the underwater valve for the swim and just complain about it. it was bad for Turbine because it showed how weak they were by giving in to some vocal complainers.Yes, "quests are subjective", which is why they should offer a choice of quests for things like flagging. To call Turbine "weak" is just silly. THEY DON'T CARE WHAT WE DO AS LONG AS WE DO IT IN THEIR GAME, PREFERABLY SPENDING A LOT WHILE WE DO. Being weak has nothing to do with making good business decisions. If lowering a bar means making customers more happy, it's not weak to lower that bar, it's smart.

[RoberttheBard]

My complaint is that turning a valve is a good job for a brainless hireling, not something I would consider to be quality game play.

If your idea of a good time is turning valves on command from someone else who is actually playing a video game, then more power to you. To my mind, it's **** poor game design if all playing that part of the game involves is clicking my mouse when it's asked for.I have no problem with quests that need a hire as that is something that is always available to me in the game.If the tank is the only designed to have fun, then yes I would see that as worthy of a complaint as well as poorly designed. Would you go to a restaurant where only one of the party gets to eat, while all are expected to pay? This game is something each of us is expected to pay for, so should be designed for all of us to get our moneys worth.I've never been on crystal duty, frankly could tell you where the crystal is. If someone asked me to join their group just to do that, or to pull levers or anything like that, I would decline though. I'd get a hire. I'd never ask someone to play the part of a hire. It's why I never ask anyone to come along to heal or buff.

Yes, "quests are subjective", which is why they should offer a choice of quests for things like flagging. To call Turbine "weak" is just silly. THEY DON'T CARE WHAT WE DO AS LONG AS WE DO IT IN THEIR GAME, PREFERABLY SPENDING A LOT WHILE WE DO. Being weak has nothing to do with making good business decisions. If lowering a bar means making customers more happy, it's not weak to lower that bar, it's smart.

Just a thought here, but you do understand that sometimes someone in the group is better suited for a task, and may need your help to accomplish it by pulling a lever. I don't recall which quest in Necro 1 requires lever pulling in teams, but it's in there. There's a door in House of Rusted Blades that requires someone to work a lever to let people in and out of one of the rooms. I generally use a hire, or a pet, if I have one, for that, but if I'm in a full group, and don't have a pet, then someone needs to pull the lever so the quest can be completed. It's not poor design, it's encouraging teamwork. Prison of the Planes has a similar mechanic. In fact, it has a room that requires one to be LG to complete it. The room's optional, since you can get more than enough orbs w/out it, but it's there. I don't see this as bad game design, in fact, I sort of like that it's there, especially because I can, if I need to, get around it, as I don't have to do that room at all. However, in a full group, again, someone will need to work the levers, so that any of the rooms can be done. This is the heart and soul of teamwork, people can do things that others can't, or, in the case of levers, someone needs to pull it, so the quest can be advanced. Yes, it can be done with a hire, or a pet, but that doesn't mean that the lever puller is demoted to hire or pet, just that they have to pull the lever.

[Gremmlynn]

Just a thought here, but you do understand that sometimes someone in the group is better suited for a task, and may need your help to accomplish it by pulling a lever. I don't recall which quest in Necro 1 requires lever pulling in teams, but it's in there. There's a door in House of Rusted Blades that requires someone to work a lever to let people in and out of one of the rooms. I generally use a hire, or a pet, if I have one, for that, but if I'm in a full group, and don't have a pet, then someone needs to pull the lever so the quest can be completed.No, that's an opt and something I skip 95% of the time anyway as I generally also can't find the secret door anyway.
It's not poor design, it's encouraging teamwork. Prison of the Planes has a similar mechanic.I always use a hire in PoP and if someone asks to pull levers, that just tells me they are just a piker. It's a 5 player quest that needs a hire IMO (baring a pet class being present).
In fact, it has a room that requires one to be LG to complete it.Just lawful and not required. Also is the only room that can't spawn a chest, likely to keep groups without a lawful player from any chance of getting screwed out of a chest.
The room's optional, since you can get more than enough orbs w/out it, but it's there. I don't see this as bad game design, in fact, I sort of like that it's there, especially because I can, if I need to, get around it, as I don't have to do that room at all. However, in a full group, again, someone will need to work the levers, so that any of the rooms can be done. This is the heart and soul of teamwork, people can do things that others can't, or, in the case of levers, someone needs to pull it, so the quest can be advanced. Yes, it can be done with a hire, or a pet, but that doesn't mean that the lever puller is demoted to hire or pet, just that they have to pull the lever.It's only "teamwork" in that someone is willing to take one for the team by basically sitting that part out. Which is poor design IMO. People play the game to play, not to sit out.

The necro quests are okay as pulling the levers doesn't cut anyone out of the action. It's pull and go.

[RoberttheBard]

No, that's an opt and something I skip 95% of the time anyway as I generally also can't find the secret door anyway.I always use a hire in PoP and if someone asks to pull levers, that just tells me they are just a piker. It's a 5 player quest that needs a hire IMO (baring a pet class being present).Just lawful and not required. Also is the only room that can't spawn a chest, likely to keep groups without a lawful player from any chance of getting screwed out of a chest.It's only "teamwork" in that someone is willing to take one for the team by basically sitting that part out. Which is poor design IMO. People play the game to play, not to sit out.

The necro quests are okay as pulling the levers doesn't cut anyone out of the action. It's pull and go.

Except that it doesn't? In PoP, you can take turns pulling levers until you have what you need, or until they're all done, depending on the group's inclination there. I generally use a hire too, but if you're in a full group, there's no room for hires. Not everything needs to be "Hulk SMASH" so that nobody "feels left out". When we take time to trap, nobody complains because they don't have the skills needed. Essentially, however, from your stated PoV, the entirety of the rest of the party are essentially hires, right? I mean, seriously, all they can do is stand there until it's done, and isn't that a job for hires?

Wouldn't it be nice, however, if you had someone with you that could find the secret door? Wouldn't it be nice if you pulled the lever to let them in, and they cleared and found that secret door for you, so you could gain access to the chest? That's teamwork, right there. Once it's cleared, they can go back and work the lever for you to gain access. It would sure suck, however, if after you let them in, they took your attitude about it, and ran with "I'm not a hire" though.

[Qhualor]

I gave up because all he was doing was making excuses and making it look like teamwork and something different to do in a quest as demeaning. instead of having multiple options to get through a quest if you didn't have a particular skill and playing in a group incentive quest (very D&D), he would rather play one option quests with fight 10 mobs before advancing so everyone can participate in a "reasonable" way. hes been in support of DDO being a solo MMO for years. I think hes playing the wrong game for what he wants.

[nokowi]

I gave up because all he was doing was making excuses and making it look like teamwork and something different to do in a quest as demeaning. instead of having multiple options to get through a quest if you didn't have a particular skill and playing in a group incentive quest (very D&D), he would rather play one option quests with fight 10 mobs before advancing so everyone can participate in a "reasonable" way. hes been in support of DDO being a solo MMO for years. I think hes playing the wrong game for what he wants.

We need a mix of quests so that both of you can enjoy DDO. You will like certain quests better than others.

You can certainly ask for more quests of the type you like. Spell this out in a thread, and don't worry if others disagree or prefer something else.

The players who come on the forums and demand that 1 or 2 quests be changed to fit their preferences should be ignored (this is not in reference to anyone in this thread).

[Hoglum]

It's not poor design, it's encouraging teamwork.


No, it's poor design. How many people left early in this games life due to stuff like this? The "MMO" title was probably one of the worst decisions made. D&D online with the ability to group should have been the extent of it. Instead they jumped on the MMO rage bandwagon. The game was all but dead a while back & people think more stupid **** will save it.

I think it may be too late though. I'll bet most people who would like to play D&D came and left already. Motu brought in a lot of people due to the popularity of Forgotten Realms but they didn't stick around too long, did they? They tried it out, declared it too hard, and left. No, they didn't post LFM's like people here think they would. They left.

Neverwinter had some 2 million accounts made so it seems the D&D title still has draw. Not many people I've ever known want to find themselves in a dungeon unable to continue because they can't stand on 4 pads or pull 4 levers at the same time.

[Gauthaag]

No, it's poor design. How many people left early in this games life due to stuff like this? The "MMO" title was probably one of the worst decisions made. D&D online with the ability to group should have been the extent of it. Instead they jumped on the MMO rage bandwagon. The game was all but dead a while back & people think more stupid **** will save it.

I think it may be too late though. I'll bet most people who would like to play D&D came and left already. Motu brought in a lot of people due to the popularity of Forgotten Realms but they didn't stick around too long, did they? They tried it out, declared it too hard, and left. No, they didn't post LFM's like people here think they would. They left.

Neverwinter had some 2 million accounts made so it seems the D&D title still has draw. Not many people I've ever known want to find themselves in a dungeon unable to continue because they can't stand on 4 pads or pull 4 levers at the same time.

which makes von the worst raid ever, cause u need to move multiple levers simultaneously couple times, right?

[RoberttheBard]

No, it's poor design. How many people left early in this games life due to stuff like this? The "MMO" title was probably one of the worst decisions made. D&D online with the ability to group should have been the extent of it. Instead they jumped on the MMO rage bandwagon. The game was all but dead a while back & people think more stupid **** will save it.

I think it may be too late though. I'll bet most people who would like to play D&D came and left already. Motu brought in a lot of people due to the popularity of Forgotten Realms but they didn't stick around too long, did they? They tried it out, declared it too hard, and left. No, they didn't post LFM's like people here think they would. They left.

Neverwinter had some 2 million accounts made so it seems the D&D title still has draw. Not many people I've ever known want to find themselves in a dungeon unable to continue because they can't stand on 4 pads or pull 4 levers at the same time.

Yeah, I was one of those accounts, I lasted about a month, because it's just another generic MMO, with the D&D name. So you'll have to excuse me if I don't want Turbine to hurry up and jump on that bandwagon. As for being too late, it may be, for some people. Others will find something they like in it, I know I did, as did everyone that's been in this, or any other discussion. If you're expecting them to drop everything and build to suit you, you're in for a big disappointment, but I think you'll find that you're in for this disappointment in every MMO on the market that's not already really close to what you're looking for.

[Hoglum]

If you're expecting them to drop everything and build to suit you, you're in for a big disappointment, .


Not sure how you got that out of what I said. I've been playing for quite a while and love this stuff. It just so happens that I'm considerate of others, not just myself. Is that concept foreign to you?

I do not think this is a generic MMO at all either. I think they did a pretty good job of attempting to translate D&D into a video game. They pushed hard early on with the forced grouping thing (MMO) and it backfired. They've tried to make it more solo-friendly but it was a bit late. Do you get where I'm coming from now?

As for the VON raid I don't think raids are that popular outside of overpowered loot anyhow. Personally, I like that raid and when there's an expressed "bring lots of people" into a dungeon, people shouldn't be too surprised to find it difficult without lots of people.

That being said I do think the lever pull in that dungeon is pretty stupid. However, one aspect of a dungeon doesn't make or break the dungeon in its entirety.

[Uska]

Whats wrong with easy XP and loot?

Its boring why play at all if all you do,is pike?

[Chai]

No, it's poor design. How many people left early in this games life due to stuff like this? The "MMO" title was probably one of the worst decisions made. D&D online with the ability to group should have been the extent of it. Instead they jumped on the MMO rage bandwagon. The game was all but dead a while back & people think more stupid **** will save it.

I think it may be too late though. I'll bet most people who would like to play D&D came and left already. Motu brought in a lot of people due to the popularity of Forgotten Realms but they didn't stick around too long, did they? They tried it out, declared it too hard, and left. No, they didn't post LFM's like people here think they would. They left.

Neverwinter had some 2 million accounts made so it seems the D&D title still has draw. Not many people I've ever known want to find themselves in a dungeon unable to continue because they can't stand on 4 pads or pull 4 levers at the same time.

D&D is about forced cooperation, so the assertion that the D&D folks are the ones who left isn't really backed up by how the D&D game plays. MMO with the D&D name that plays anything like D&D should do very well, because the more people there are, the more potential there is for grouping, and forced cooperation.

If people declared this game too hard, they were likely those who were lead to believe that they absolutely must play elite difficulty and absolutely must be able to solo while doing so. This creates a boring experience for newer players, slogging through high HP totals alone. The expectation for a new player should be normal difficulty, especially if they want to solo (or have been lead to believe that this is the absolute best way to play).

[Chai]

Whats wrong with easy XP and loot?

Easy Xp and loot being an option - fine.

Easy Xp and loot being the only option, or clearly the best option everyone flocks to - boring game. A likely cause of net loss attrition.

[Kompera_Oberon]

D&D is about forced cooperation, so the assertion that the D&D folks are the ones who left isn't really backed up by how the D&D game plays.
This is what I like to call the Gygax fallacy. People love to point to something Gygax said about the game and then hold that up as though it was gospel from the prophets and everyone should play that way.

News flash: Gygax didn't even play that way.

Qhualor has a quote from Gygax in his .sig which I will use to illustrate my point.

The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.
And then we have:

Kuntz quickly grew impatient with play when it involved more than a couple of players, often playing solo adventures one-on-one with Gygax;[4] their constant (almost daily) play meant that Robilar rapidly gained power and possessions. As the city of Greyhawk was developed and fleshed out, Robilar also became the secret owner of the Green Dragon Inn in the city of Greyhawk, where he kept tabs on happenings in the city.[5] Robilar was not only the first to reach the 13th and bottom level of Gygax's Greyhawk dungeons, but on the way, he was also responsible for freeing nine demi-gods (whom Gygax revived a decade later as some of the first deities of Greyhawk: Iuz, Ralishaz, Trithereon, Erythnul, Olidammara, Heironeous, Celestian, Hextor, and Obad-Hai). Robilar was also the first to enter Gygax's Temple of Elemental Evil, and trashed it from top to bottom, even freeing the demoness Zuggtmoy from her prison at the centre of the Temple. Kuntz later related that Gygax was very dismayed that his masterpiece dungeon had been destroyed by a single adventurer, and as punishment, Gygax had an army pursue Robilar all the way back to his castle, which Robilar was forced to abandon.

So yeah, not only did Gygax not endorse a cooperative play experience in fact, rather than just words, but a solo player was one of if not the single most powerful character in his campaign, ever.

Citation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robilar

So no, Chai, D&D is not about forced cooperation. Not according to the creator, and not according to the play. People soloing the Temple of Elemental Evil and by extension any other content in the game has been an old and cherished part of the game from its very inception. So why complain that DDO supports solo play? They are just running it how the creator ran it, after all.

[Darkmits]

Let's not get sidetracked about what D&D is or what it should be and how faithful DDO is to D&D. The main problem of DDO is that multiplayer content isn't multiplayer in the same sense as it is in other games.

(a) In other games, when people say "Let's do this together" they mean that they both hit the same enemies to kill them in half time, or one player does something that enables another player to do something else (the equivalent of pulling a lever here). The alternative of killing different enemies to finish in half time is also possible, but not preferable, because making enemies die in half time mean that they had less time to damage players. In essence, hitting the same enemies reduces incoming party damage while also speeding up the killing process. In DDO, "Let's do this together" means "I don't want to see you interacting with any enemy that I do, unless it's the final boss".

(b) In other games people move as a group together from room to room. In DDO groups are together at the entrance, the rest shrine and the final boss.

(c) In other games people can have different roles in the same group, and each player performing a role can feel their impact and feel good when successful. In DDO, which is based on D&D which in turn is known to have the most roles out of all the games, there is only one viable role: Damage Dealer. And only the top killer feels good there.

(d) In other games you can help any player that is on the same part of the game as you without them impacting your progress. In DDO it makes it harder for you to progress.


Now you'll say that this is not the game's fault but the playerbase. And you're right, but the design of the game has endorsed this behaviour instead of avert it. Instead of having few enemies with lots of hp that need time and cooperation to take down, DDO has hundreds of instagibbed enemies that punish players who attempt to perform the same action. That's why we have (a), (b) and (c). (d) is, you know it, Bravery Bonus and Dungeon Scaling. I have said it before but recently: I tried to solo The Pit because I couldn't find a group. It took me 2 hours and 15mins, then I noticed that the quest hadn't updated the 6th objective, so I had to reset and do it again (that was 2:15 hours of only optional xp). Next day I actually manage to get a group of 4 going. So we enter, and we are all demolished in the second room. The enemies that were not even making a dent on my hp were now dealing upwards of 30% of my max hp per hit. So what did I do? "Sorry guys, I'll try again some other time" and then went on to solo it, thankfully without it bugging again on the 6th objective (the one with the 4 puzzles). That's why DDO is also group unfriendly.

And that's why DDO is better to play Solo or with a closed group than try to pug. Except for those who are in for the easy xp and believe that piking is their right (but not the right of others). These guys like the current system because it promotes their playstyle, and unfortunately they are a significant majority of the current playerbase. That's why DDO has had to implement bribing methods to enable grouping up.

And to re-re-re-reiterate. I am not against soloing. I am against soloing being preferable mathematically to grouping in a game that is designed to be multiplayer.

[Chai]

This is what I like to call the Gygax fallacy. People love to point to something Gygax said about the game and then hold that up as though it was gospel from the prophets and everyone should play that way.

News flash: Gygax didn't even play that way.

Qhualor has a quote from Gygax in his .sig which I will use to illustrate my point.

And then we have:


So yeah, not only did Gygax not endorse a cooperative play experience in fact, rather than just words, but a solo player was one of if not the single most powerful character in his campaign, ever.

Citation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robilar

So no, Chai, D&D is not about forced cooperation. Not according to the creator, and not according to the play. People soloing the Temple of Elemental Evil and by extension any other content in the game has been an old and cherished part of the game from its very inception. So why complain that DDO supports solo play? They are just running it how the creator ran it, after all.

What you call a fallacy was written into the old school DMGs for the first few editions. Its no fallacy at all. In the first edition DMG they actually give an RP example of where it would be justified for the DM to wipe the party, and it involved the party refusing to cooperate together to achieve the objective due to intra party conflicts.

So yes, Kompera_Oberon, D&D is very much about forced cooperation, and it is not merely one E.G.Gygax quote which supports this.

No one complains that DDO supports solo play. The complaints occur when solo play is the easiest way to play so therefore becomes the preferred way to play. Not only is this not supported by D&D, its also terrible marketing. New players join an MMO, and log on to see a ghost town, and their perception of the game is "not many players" - "game is dying" etc....and then leave right after.

DDO needs to stop being a solo game with a group option, and become a group preferred game with a solo option once again.

[Kompera_Oberon]

And to re-re-re-reiterate. I am not against soloing. I am against soloing being preferable mathematically to grouping in a game that is designed to be multiplayer.
Your mistake is that you have made the false assumption that DDO is designed to be multiplayer. And once you make that false assumption you are bound to arrive at false conclusions.

[Darkmits]

Your mistake is that you have made the false assumption that DDO is designed to be multiplayer. And once you make that false assumption you are bound to arrive at false conclusions.It's advertised as massively multiplayer online rpg. While technically this only means that multiplayer is just enabled and not enforced, it has been a staple of the genre that grouping is in every case preferable to soloing.

It's the same as with FPS. It means First Person Shooter. Nothing prohibits you from not shooting though. But it doesn't mean that not shooting will make you see the "The End" screen faster or easier than when shooting. This is where DDO is different. Not going multiplayer enhances your progress, going multiplayer obstructs it.

[Kompera_Oberon]

It's advertised as massively multiplayer online rpg. While technically this only means that multiplayer is just enabled and not enforced, it has been a staple of the genre that grouping is in every case preferable to soloing. [Analogy snipped because it was ridiculous]

Staple of other games or not, that is not the case in this game. If your opinion is that this game should work that way, that's fine. It's your opinion and you are welcome to it. But the reality is that DDO both supports and rewards solo play more than it supports and rewards group play.

Play in a group? Dungeon scaling.
Play in a group? XP penalties if people are a few levels away from yours (heroic).
Want to play in a group? Deal with the broken LFM interface.
Want to play in a group? Wait for someone to join.
Etc.

The only mechanic I can think of which actually rewards group play is the rare weekend where they decide to grant groups an XP bonus. And in every thread asking that this be made permanent where the devs have deigned to respond they have said "No. Not gonna do it." Sometimes for the most ridiculous and clearly invented of reasons, such as "DDO could not absorb that much extra XP."

[salmag]

Just cut back on healing amp and self-healing mechanics for those classes that should not be healing.

I remember when (in this game as well as) in PnP, after a really tough fight, we as a group, healed up, drank potions, etc.

What is so wrong with that? Some of the best times in this game (pre-MOTU) were after a major fight; we licked our wounds, as a group then continued forward. NO Leroy Jenkins, NO zerging ahead, NO destroy this mob, move onto the next because the fighting healed(?) you, etc.

I think it probably started with the zerging Monk. Seriously, a monk GAINS(?) ki by fighting? This promotes zerging and started the trend of leaving the party behind. A monk should start every quest with no ki, meditate to gain ki (while everyone else is buffing), then use his/her ki through-out the quest, stop and meditate while everyone licks their wounds after major fights. Some enhancements/stances, could grant ki regeneration, but they shouldn't HAVE TO FIGHT in order to gain it. This mechanic was wrong to begin with and is still wrong today.

Healing potions, long a staple of DnD, have gone by the wayside.

Cut all forms of self-healing in half, increase the effectiveness of potions, and you would start making this game resemble DnD again.

[HAL]

I gave up because all he was doing was making excuses and making it look like teamwork and something different to do in a quest as demeaning. instead of having multiple options to get through a quest if you didn't have a particular skill and playing in a group incentive quest (very D&D), he would rather play one option quests with fight 10 mobs before advancing so everyone can participate in a "reasonable" way. hes been in support of DDO being a solo MMO for years. I think hes playing the wrong game for what he wants.

I play in 2 static groups and we have fun playing that way. However there is a certain element of players with strong personalities playing the role they want and the rest of the group either feeling forced to play other roles or doing so out of a greater sense of cooperation. But no matter how much you like to "be a team player" I can see it getting old to often end up in the support role.

Regarding DDO becoming solo-able: it simply had to happen. As a MMO ages and loses population if the quests require a certain group (size or makeup) you end up with people at certain play times waiting endlessly or simply unable to play. I would rather DDO be solo-able and still be around than require group play and be shut down.

[Qhualor]

I play in 2 static groups and we have fun playing that way. However there is a certain element of players with strong personalities playing the role they want and the rest of the group either feeling forced to play other roles or doing so out of a greater sense of cooperation. But no matter how much you like to "be a team player" I can see it getting old to often end up in the support role.

Regarding DDO becoming solo-able: it simply had to happen. As a MMO ages and loses population if the quests require a certain group (size or makeup) you end up with people at certain play times waiting endlessly or simply unable to play. I would rather DDO be solo-able and still be around than require group play and be shut down.

DDO was already soloable before the population started declining. its still soloable now and nothing has changed so that we cant, except maybe in extremely specific cases that I cant think of off the top of my head. the point of the posts I made wasn't about being able to solo content or not. the point was that there are multiple options in quests, like Crucible, so that if you didn't have a specific build for one path there is options for any build down another path. that's what makes some of those older quests so great. they have a very D&D feel to them, unlike some of the newer quests where you have to kill mobs before proceeding. the discussion got very muddied by one poster that thinks there is only one path and that team play is poorly designed if you need another body to pull a lever.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Its no fallacy at all.
It is a fallacy and I proved it objectively. Your opinion that it is not a fallacy cannot gainsay the facts that I laid out. Gygax can say that D&D is about cooperative play all he wants. He can write that it's about cooperative play in whatever books he likes, but when he goes ahead and runs a player in solo play until they are the most powerful player in his campaign, then his actions speak much louder than his words.


The complaints occur when solo play is the easiest way to play so therefore becomes the preferred way to play. Not only is this not supported by D&D [...]
You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean. </Inigo_Montoya>

In fact, Kuntz became the most powerful player in Gygax's D&D campaign playing solo. This is mirrored in DDO, where a player running solo will advance much faster than one who always looks for a group.

[Chai]

It is a fallacy and I proved it objectively. Your opinion that it is not a fallacy cannot gainsay the facts that I laid out. Gygax can say that D&D is about cooperative play all he wants. He can write that it's about cooperative play in whatever books he likes, but when he goes ahead and runs a player in solo play until they are the most powerful player in his campaign, then his actions speak much louder than his words.

What you stated didn't prove it objectively. It assumed there was a mere one quote from the author, when it was IN FACT and OBJECTIVELY can be cited, multiple specific descriptions of forced cooperation, in multiple DMG, as well as the MANY (not just one) quotes from the authors (plural) that this is how the game is intended to be played.


You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean. </Inigo_Montoya>

Has to be in the top 5 all time misused quotes on these forums.


In fact, Kuntz became the most powerful player in Gygax's D&D campaign playing solo. This is mirrored in DDO, where a player running solo will advance much faster than one who always looks for a group.

As I stated, a group preferred game with a solo option. Not a solo-is-the-optimal-way-to-play game with a group option on the side. You, like many others before, are supporting exactly what I stated, all the while attempting to disagree. Thanks for the support.

TL;DR?
Group optimal but solo possible = D&D
Solo optimal but group possible = most clone MMOs.

DDO started as the former, but has moved toward the latter over the years, by degree, as time progressed.

[Kompera_Oberon]

What you stated didn't prove it objectively. It assumed there was a mere one quote from the author, when it was IN FACT and OBJECTIVELY can be cited, multiple specific descriptions of forced cooperation, in multiple DMG, as well as the MANY (not just one) quotes from the authors (plural) that this is how the game is intended to be played.
One quote, many quotes, none of that really means anything here.

Once again, and at the risk or repeating myself to a person who is simply not willing to admit when they are wrong: What is written or said is one thing, and what actually happened is another thing entirely. Any number of different versions of the DMG can claim that D&D is for cooperative, group play. Gygax himself can claim that D&D is about cooperative, group play. I freely admit that. It is indeed the very basis of the Gygax fallacy. But if those words in books or quotations from the founder are contradicted by the actual historical events, then those words mean nothing. And they are indeed contradicted the the actual historical events.

Please provide me an example as powerful as the one I cited to you about how a solo player in D&D became the most powerful player in the founder's campaign. Then you'll have a point. Until then you're just claiming that words mean more than actions. And that is simply not true.

[RoberttheBard]

Not sure how you got that out of what I said. I've been playing for quite a while and love this stuff. It just so happens that I'm considerate of others, not just myself. Is that concept foreign to you?

I do not think this is a generic MMO at all either. I think they did a pretty good job of attempting to translate D&D into a video game. They pushed hard early on with the forced grouping thing (MMO) and it backfired. They've tried to make it more solo-friendly but it was a bit late. Do you get where I'm coming from now?

As for the VON raid I don't think raids are that popular outside of overpowered loot anyhow. Personally, I like that raid and when there's an expressed "bring lots of people" into a dungeon, people shouldn't be too surprised to find it difficult without lots of people.

That being said I do think the lever pull in that dungeon is pretty stupid. However, one aspect of a dungeon doesn't make or break the dungeon in its entirety.

That's the problem with cherry picking to respond, you miss the big picture of a post. You see, I think adding things that make a quest easier with a group is a good thing. None of this has anything to do with the point, however: Having mechanics that require more than one person to complete isn't bad design. The majority of these can be accomplished with a hire or a pet, so it's even better for when you can't find/don't want to wait for a group to run something.

Someone else commented something to the effect that D&D players left, well, I'm still here, and frankly, the major difference between this game and D&D is that I can solo stuff if I choose. D&D was always a MP game.

[RoberttheBard]

Your mistake is that you have made the false assumption that DDO is designed to be multiplayer. And once you make that false assumption you are bound to arrive at false conclusions.

Really? So people complaining about having to pull levers are what, delusional? There are no circumstances where you may need other players or hires, to complete a quest? How many end game raids are you soloing a day? Can we get some videos, I'd love to watch 'em. I'm sure you're "that guy" that solo'd Chrono at level 5, right? Speaking of ridiculous claims...

[Gremmlynn]

Except that it doesn't? In PoP, you can take turns pulling levers until you have what you need, or until they're all done, depending on the group's inclination there. I generally use a hire too, but if you're in a full group, there's no room for hires. Not everything needs to be "Hulk SMASH" so that nobody "feels left out". When we take time to trap, nobody complains because they don't have the skills needed. Essentially, however, from your stated PoV, the entirety of the rest of the party are essentially hires, right? I mean, seriously, all they can do is stand there until it's done, and isn't that a job for hires?The reason I hate waiting for trappers is that trappers generally wait till everything else is done to do traps. In XC, for example, they generally wait till all the mobs are ranged down to clear the traps in the trap hall, rather than making trapping their priority in order to maximize the party DPS on the mobs.


Wouldn't it be nice, however, if you had someone with you that could find the secret door?Meh, no secret door in the game needed for a completion has a DC that anybody can't hit, generally they are set to 1. if they are there, I'll do the opt, but I don't worry about what is beyond my control. The availability of other players is beyond my control. Which is where I stand on the entire issue of needing a group. I can't pull one from my pocket and Turbine really can't provide one. So it shouldn't be a necessity. Nice when it happens to be available, but not something that limits access to the product.
Wouldn't it be nice if you pulled the lever to let them in, and they cleared and found that secret door for you, so you could gain access to the chest? That's teamwork, right there. Once it's cleared, they can go back and work the lever for you to gain access. It would sure suck, however, if after you let them in, they took your attitude about it, and ran with "I'm not a hire" though.Even if the door wasn't an issue, I wouldn't worry about that chest unless I needed a hire for healing. More trouble than it's worth.

[Chai]

The reason I hate waiting for trappers is that trappers generally wait till everything else is done to do traps. In XC, for example, they generally wait till all the mobs are ranged down to clear the traps in the trap hall, rather than making trapping their priority in order to maximize the party DPS on the mobs.

Meh, no secret door in the game needed for a completion has a DC that anybody can't hit, generally they are set to 1. if they are there, I'll do the opt, but I don't worry about what is beyond my control. The availability of other players is beyond my control. Which is where I stand on the entire issue of needing a group. I can't pull one from my pocket and Turbine really can't provide one. So it shouldn't be a necessity. Nice when it happens to be available, but not something that limits access to the product. Even if the door wasn't an issue, I wouldn't worry about that chest unless I needed a hire for healing. More trouble than it's worth.

That's just it. In a group optimal game where solo is an option, grouping is not a necessity. The myth that it ever was needed to win is just that, a myth.

People keep confusing "need" with "want", then proceeded to perpetuate myths about how clerics and rogues were absolutely required to play in the past (when they never were) and the end result is now we have a bunch of classes that all do everything really well, with the display of how they do it being semantics only and nothing more. Support roles are eroded out of the game due to all being made "optional". What you just said about secret doors reinforces how much support roles, which do not cater to "moar DPS" as the solution, are eroded beyond being desired. Why invite one to the group, when you can have another self sufficient max DPS character.

[Gremmlynn]

I gave up because all he was doing was making excuses and making it look like teamwork and something different to do in a quest as demeaning. instead of having multiple options to get through a quest if you didn't have a particular skill and playing in a group incentive quest (very D&D), he would rather play one option quests with fight 10 mobs before advancing so everyone can participate in a "reasonable" way. hes been in support of DDO being a solo MMO for years. I think hes playing the wrong game for what he wants.No, I would rather play the game that's intrinsically available. D&D is a game that is played at a particular time by groups. DDO, like any MMO, is a game that is played at any time whenever one logs on. It's not a matter of what I support, it's what I see as likely to work. Group only play works well in DDO if one wants to limit themselves to playing it at specific times in a static group as the group doesn't get in the way of playing. Otherwise, any group, much less a balanced group is not ensured, thus can impede access to the product that is being sold.

Would you buy, or try to sell, a car that required 1 or more other people in it to move. While pretty much every car allows multiple people in it, none require it as why would anyone make one with that limitation. That's how I see DDO, it allows you to have other people play with you, but doesn't make that a limitation to access it.

Maybe it's just me, but if I don't have a group to play it with, I'm not buying D&D. If I find I need a group to play it, I'm not playing DDO. That just makes it more trouble than it's worth. maybe you like to spend your free time working out the logistics of gathering a group, I don't.

[Gremmlynn]

which makes von the worst raid ever, cause u need to move multiple levers simultaneously couple times, right?VoNs a raid. That's actually appropriate there. It's was pinnacle content at the time of it's release. It wasn't designed to be the kind of day to day leveling content people expect to be able to run when they log in. Hell, the 3 day timers were likely introduced just for that reason.

[Gremmlynn]

If people declared this game too hard, they were likely those who were lead to believe that they absolutely must play elite difficulty and absolutely must be able to solo while doing so. This creates a boring experience for newer players, slogging through high HP totals alone. The expectation for a new player should be normal difficulty, especially if they want to solo (or have been lead to believe that this is the absolute best way to play).Or they could have been under the impression that they absolutely must have a group to play and found finding, or creating, a group for a lot of the content to be what was hard.

I know a lot of people who basically play the game in the order the quest log puts the quests. If having to find a group for, or anything even vaguely close, that were a need, it simply wouldn't be worth it to them to get invested in the game. This is something that a game can provide.

There are people here who seem to see running everything in a group to be what they want from a game. Well that's going to take some effort on your part as that's something beyond the scope of Turbines ability to provide. They simply can't control what other players do. Trying to do that just points out that nobody has to play at all.

[Gremmlynn]

What you call a fallacy was written into the old school DMGs for the first few editions. Its no fallacy at all. In the first edition DMG they actually give an RP example of where it would be justified for the DM to wipe the party, and it involved the party refusing to cooperate together to achieve the objective due to intra party conflicts.

So yes, Kompera_Oberon, D&D is very much about forced cooperation, and it is not merely one E.G.Gygax quote which supports this.

No one complains that DDO supports solo play. The complaints occur when solo play is the easiest way to play so therefore becomes the preferred way to play. Not only is this not supported by D&D, its also terrible marketing. New players join an MMO, and log on to see a ghost town, and their perception of the game is "not many players" - "game is dying" etc....and then leave right after.

DDO needs to stop being a solo game with a group option, and become a group preferred game with a solo option once again.Because more logistics and obstacles to actually playing are what people are looking for in a game? All I see that accomplishing is to have people waiting around for other people who have already moved on to something else to join them.

[Gremmlynn]

Just cut back on healing amp and self-healing mechanics for those classes that should not be healing.

I remember when (in this game as well as) in PnP, after a really tough fight, we as a group, healed up, drank potions, etc.

What is so wrong with that? Some of the best times in this game (pre-MOTU) were after a major fight; we licked our wounds, as a group then continued forward. NO Leroy Jenkins, NO zerging ahead, NO destroy this mob, move onto the next because the fighting healed(?) you, etc.

I think it probably started with the zerging Monk. Seriously, a monk GAINS(?) ki by fighting? This promotes zerging and started the trend of leaving the party behind. A monk should start every quest with no ki, meditate to gain ki (while everyone else is buffing), then use his/her ki through-out the quest, stop and meditate while everyone licks their wounds after major fights. Some enhancements/stances, could grant ki regeneration, but they shouldn't HAVE TO FIGHT in order to gain it. This mechanic was wrong to begin with and is still wrong today.

Healing potions, long a staple of DnD, have gone by the wayside.

Cut all forms of self-healing in half, increase the effectiveness of potions, and you would start making this game resemble DnD again.The game would need to be changed to where one's hp pool would generally be enough to survive an encounter (it isn't now, as I often wonder how many times my hps were completely replaced over the course of a single trash mob encounter. 5? 10?). It would also require more normalization of those pools as, right now, if they base it on the lowest, those with the highest likely could go whole quests on what they have.

I also don't think standing around sucking pots is what many people consider a good time. More likely something that gets in the way of that.

[Gremmlynn]

I play in 2 static groups and we have fun playing that way. However there is a certain element of players with strong personalities playing the role they want and the rest of the group either feeling forced to play other roles or doing so out of a greater sense of cooperation. But no matter how much you like to "be a team player" I can see it getting old to often end up in the support role.Not to mention that the game has been moving more and more towards just playing one character. So, being stuck in a support role often means being stuck there for an entire life, at the least.

[Gremmlynn]

As I stated, a group preferred game with a solo option. Not a solo-is-the-optimal-way-to-play game with a group option on the side. You, like many others before, are supporting exactly what I stated, all the while attempting to disagree. Thanks for the support.That misses that solo will always be optimal in one area. More game play. I've never had to wait on, find, hope for, or log off due to a failure to find someone to play with when soloing. I have done all of those and generally do at least one when grouping. There is nothing Turbine can do to change that either. That doesn't even go into being limited to running only the content that one can find a group for or having to put up with whomever it is that happens to be in that group and however it is they happen to play.

When I solo I always get my moneys worth from the game. Grouping just allows others to prevent me from getting that.

[Gremmlynn]

That's just it. In a group optimal game where solo is an option, grouping is not a necessity. The myth that it ever was needed to win is just that, a myth.

People keep confusing "need" with "want", then proceeded to perpetuate myths about how clerics and rogues were absolutely required to play in the past (when they never were) and the end result is now we have a bunch of classes that all do everything really well, with the display of how they do it being semantics only and nothing more. Support roles are eroded out of the game due to all being made "optional". What you just said about secret doors reinforces how much support roles, which do not cater to "moar DPS" as the solution, are eroded beyond being desired. Why invite one to the group, when you can have another self sufficient max DPS character.To get that extra chest. Which is all the reason I'd ever want the game to have. Go further than that and we go from supporting someone's desire to play a support character to forcing someone to do so regardless of their desires. Why play a game at all if you play it regardless of your desires? Where not playing at all is a more desirable option than playing.

To my mind, the standard to have when developing an MMO is to make something that is fun despite the other players, not because of the other players.

Also, one place many here seem to confuse "need" and "want" is in playing at all. I don't need anything from the game as I don't need to play at all and only will do so if it's something i actually want to do. So no, I don't think anyone is confusing need and want as "need" really isn't a question.

[Darkmits]

Group optimal but solo possible = D&D
Solo optimal but group possible = most clone MMOs.Actually this isn't true. Not that I have played every MMO out there, but at least those I have can be soloed in 95%+ of their content (some even up to 99,9%), but being in a group will always make it easier and quicker, even if the other party member was 90% afk. The only case where grouping would appear to be reducing the rate of my progress is during boosts, where enemies would reward less xp and sometimes even less loot (to prevent hyperboosting low level alts using a high level character).

DDO is unique in that it actively imposes penalties for partying up, and indirectly imposes other penalties due to design.
- Bravery Bonus lost if you try to group up with someone who is 1 level above the quest CR. Bravery Bonus has been argued to be a "meh" bonus (VIP on a 32point build) or a super-important one (Premium on 3rd+ Life with not all packs unlocked), depending on your playstyle.
- Dungeon Scaling, at least in heroic quests, ensures that non-power-builds will be decimated if they become the target of an enemy group for a full 3 seconds, a window too small for meaningfull counter-actions by any non-veteran (and even by some veterans too). Those same builds can breeze in the same content when soloing.
- Enemies die too quickly, effectively making a lot of actions taken by players go to waste. This is turn makes players feel useless and annoyed.


There is nothing wrong with being able to solo content. There is a problem when I see a group for a quest I want and I instead select to solo because it is going to provide better progression bonuses for me (xp), as well as better player experience (I feel I contribute to my character's progress when when solo, I do not when in a group)

I know I sound like a broken record.



Really? So people complaining about having to pull levers are what, delusional? There are no circumstances where you may need other players or hires, to complete a quest? How many end game raids are you soloing a day? Can we get some videos, I'd love to watch 'em. I'm sure you're "that guy" that solo'd Chrono at level 5, right? Speaking of ridiculous claims...There are different cases of "enforced multiplayer". There is the hard-coded case (in order to pass this door you must be at least X party members, or Y different players need to be standing somewhere or doing something for the quest to progress) and the soft-coded case (enemy has such hp that it takes T mins for 1 player to defeat it, but it takes less than T/X with X players due to less time having to be spent non-dpsing). DDO's enforced multiplayer is mostly the first type, whereas other MMOs apply the 2nd type.

[PermaBanned]

To my mind, the standard to have when developing an MMO is to make something that is fun despite the other players, not because of the other players.So what then would be the point of making said Massively Multiplayer game? If a game's designed purpose is to be fun for someone playing alone, why try to adopt the title of "multiplayer?" This makes no sense to me.

"Come play our MMO! Sure you can group up if you really want to; but going it alone is faster, easier, and generally results in a more enjoyable play experience!"

If DDO (or any other "MMO" for that matter) had tried to pull me in with that sort of ad instead of "Friends don't let friends solo" I'd never have bothered with it. Maybe I'm alone in that sentiment, but I doubt it.

[Gremmlynn]

So what then would be the point of making said Massively Multiplayer game? If a game's designed purpose is to be fun for someone playing alone, why try to adopt the title of "multiplayer?" This makes no sense to me.

"Come play our MMO! Sure you can group up if you really want to; but going it alone is faster, easier, and generally results in a more enjoyable play experience!"

If DDO (or any other "MMO" for that matter) had tried to pull me in with that sort of ad instead of "Friends don't let friends solo" I'd never have bothered with it. Maybe I'm alone in that sentiment, but I doubt it.A hosted game world and multiplayer option mostly. Not to mention a shared economy.

One problem I see with your view is, that to make soloing not a generally better play experience one would have to go out of their way to make it worse than waiting around for who knows how long for who knows who to join you is on it's own. That whole "friends don't ley friends solo" slogan is something I actually agree with. Only in that, if one actually has friends on (and in the same level range) it is better to group up. Friends are actually worth the, minimal amount due to familiarity, of extra trouble to play with. BUT NOT EVERY DDO CUSTOMER HAS FRIENDS ON EVERY TIME THEY PLAY.

A more realistic, albeit silly, slogan would have been "Pugs don't let strangers solo". Like they give a rats ass what some random person does.


Want a good MMO framework? Make a "rock soup" type game. Where progression is continuous, rather than completion based. Where players can come and go as their play time permits. Where moving from solo to small group to full group content is fast and easy at any point. Where characters interact well regardless of class with each adding something non-essential to the others.

[walkin_dude]

Play in a group? Dungeon scaling.

The only mechanic I can think of which actually rewards group play is the rare weekend where they decide to grant groups an XP bonus. And in every thread asking that this be made permanent where the devs have deigned to respond they have said "No. Not gonna do it." Sometimes for the most ridiculous and clearly invented of reasons, such as "DDO could not absorb that much extra XP."

First, scaling is a solo-enabling feature. Any suggestion to remove it has been met by howls and predictions of dread from the soloist portion of our community.

Second, there's a very important reason to play in a group that you missed: I, at least, find it to be a lot more fun to game alongside some other folks. Grouping is a lot more enjoyable to me than soloing.

[walkin_dude]

But if those words in books or quotations from the founder are contradicted by the actual historical events, then those words mean nothing. And they are indeed contradicted the the actual historical events.

You're countering every other thing that has been said or written concerning group play with an example of one guy in one campaign, and it only happened that way because both the DM and the player happened to have a lot of synchronous free time.

I played solo D&D at one point. I had an idea for a character to join our campaign, and it required some initial play apart from the group in order to work. And it was boring as three-day-old toast. Thankfully, DDO isn't quite as boring as that when played solo.

[RoberttheBard]

There are different cases of "enforced multiplayer". There is the hard-coded case (in order to pass this door you must be at least X party members, or Y different players need to be standing somewhere or doing something for the quest to progress) and the soft-coded case (enemy has such hp that it takes T mins for 1 player to defeat it, but it takes less than T/X with X players due to less time having to be spent non-dpsing). DDO's enforced multiplayer is mostly the first type, whereas other MMOs apply the 2nd type.

Except that DDO has both types. Necro has at least 2 quests that require 2 people, whether they're players or a player and at least one hire. Then we have raids. The majority of epic content is easily solo-able, at one difficulty or another, but most is certainly easier in a group, even if it's 2 players. Mostly for the reason you list here: It's faster. Although I'd argue that Madstone is certainly a "grouping encouraged" type of quest that doesn't require someone to sit back and pull levers, but in the case of the last two crystals, it's nice to have players high and low.

[Kompera_Oberon]

That misses that solo will always be optimal in one area. More game play. I've never had to wait on, find, hope for, or log off due to a failure to find someone to play with when soloing. I have done all of those and generally do at least one when grouping. There is nothing Turbine can do to change that either.
They can't do anything which will definitively improve the grouping experience, because that all depends on the players. But they can provide the mechanisms to encourage grouping by making it easier to do, less painful, and less time consuming. World of Warcraft (the movie trailer looks pretty sweet, check it out!) had a cross server grouping tool about 7 years ago. I was playing WoW when it was implemented, and even though at that time WoW had an enormous player base this cross server grouping tool improved grouping considerably. It cut the wait times for forming a group from 15+ minutes to under 5 minutes, and quite often I would just instantaneously be placed in a group the moment I signed up for a particular dungeon.

And they might just look into fixing the broken LFM interface. That has been a long standing bug which, if they cared at all about promoting grouping, would have been at the top of their list of bugs to fix. But U29.2 didn't include that fix, and so we can see by their actions how much they wish to promote grouping.


So what then would be the point of making said Massively Multiplayer game? If a game's designed purpose is to be fun for someone playing alone, why try to adopt the title of "multiplayer?" This makes no sense to me.
It makes sense because you can group. It is a choice. I group fairly frequently. Not every time I play, but perhaps 50% of the time. It's nice to log on and be contacted by someone you've run with before who invites you to join their group or raid. It's nice to want to run a challenging raid and form up a group of people to go beat it. But it's also nice to just do your own thing if that's what you want to do. You can play solo and still chat with your friends or guild mates, and that would not exist without the MMO format. The AH and ASAH would not exist without the MMO format. The pawn shops would not exist without the MMO format.


First, scaling is a solo-enabling feature. Any suggestion to remove it has been met by howls and predictions of dread from the soloist portion of our community.

Second, there's a very important reason to play in a group that you missed: I, at least, find it to be a lot more fun to game alongside some other folks. Grouping is a lot more enjoyable to me than soloing.
It can be, and that's why it is great that people have the option. But it should not be a requirement. And if it isn't a requirement then people need to be able to select any class and still be able to play solo, unless at character creation they are told expressly that a class is not a good solo choice. And I do not believe that the existing ranks of "Strong", "Very Strong" etc. which are shown at character creation have been updated since the game was launched.


You're countering every other thing that has been said or written concerning group play with an example of one guy in one campaign, and it only happened that way because both the DM and the player happened to have a lot of synchronous free time.
Yes, I am. Because it so perfectly illustrates my point. What you describe as "both the DM and the player happen[ing] to have a lot of synchronous free time." is in DDO solo play. A player playing in the game world without having to worry about anyone else's schedule.

In the example I quoted it said that Kuntz became the most powerful character in Gygax's D&D campaign in large part because they played almost daily. It didn't cite how often Gary hosted the rest of his friends for group play, but if we assume for the sake of argument that it was once per week, and also assume that "almost daily" means 5 times per week, then Kuntz was getting in 5 times the play as the other characters every week. It's not hard to see why he became the most powerful character.

This is precisely mirrored in DDO if you consider a player who solos 5 times per week vs. a static group which meets once a week. The solo player will climb levels much faster than any of the players in the static group. The harder comparison would be to weigh the play time difference between someone who logs on and plays solo vs. someone who logs on and places a LFM. But I don't think there can be any reasonable argument that the solo player will still be earning XP at a faster rate than the player who always seeks a group.

So you really have only made my point for me: Playing solo is mechanically rewarded in DDO. Group play is mechanically punished in DDO.

[walkin_dude]

So you really have only made my point for me: Playing solo is mechanically rewarded in DDO. Group play is mechanically punished in DDO.

I won't disagree with you that more playing will equal a more powerful toon, but that still doesn't address the issue of enjoyment. Mind you, I speak only for myself. I'm not trying to transfer my opinion onto anyone else. If your theoretical guy soloing five times per week were me, he'd be getting a lot less enjoyment from the experience. If I were able to play five times per week for a few hours, but only solo, I probably would not make it for very long. It just isn't fun. Powerful toon, while providing some enhancement to the thrill of the game, isn't enough on its own to constitute enjoyment.

[nokowi]

I would like DDO to exist as a game that is both fun to solo, and fun to play in groups. I see no reason to get rid of any of these players. I also want enough variety that all types of players can find parts of DDO they enjoy, while avoiding parts of DDO that they don't enjoy.

This means having some quests that are soloable, and some quests that are much better completed in a full group. I don't like quest gating (needing 4 levers pulled simultaneously), but I do like a range of difficulty that allow both single and group play.

Here are my recommendations:

Older quests are easier by design, because character power was less when they were created. Players should be able to ride the TR/ER train by running older quests. Most newer quests should be of higher difficulty to encourage group play, and to take into account character power increases. Solo players can choose normal or hard if elite is too much for them. Bravery can be turned off, so there is no reason to listen to the complaints on the forums by solo players who have to have everything --> they already do.

1. The group scaling difficulty is too big

Instead of adding so much group scaling, just provide some quests that are challenging enough to warrant having a group. Provide enough of these that players who like grouping can level up using group quests. This would also give top players areas of challenge in solo mode.

2. Raids are a great place to encourage group play

We need more of them at heroic levels. Instead of EPICifying existing raids, new raid content should be developed with both heroic and epic play. Updating gear in old raids is good for the community. Raid XP should be superior to quest XP because of the time needed to form a full group.

3. Consider trying some 8 or 10 person raids. If anything, this might make lag manageable, and would make it easier to form groups and join the raiding scene. I would take an 8 player EE DOJ over a raid that I can't complete due to lag.

[changelingamuck]

The problem is that there's a wide spectrum of power levels

Yes, this is the problem because of runaway power creep reflective of a lack of restraint in giving out "worthwhile" (read: actually broken/overpowered) shinies to powergamer munchkins. And pay-to-win tomes with escalating values.


and this just can't be covered by a few static difficulty levels.

This is not the problem. The first thing was the problem. The power creep needs to be restrained and chipped away at. Otherwise, after the fifth difficulty level is introduced, they'll soon come to a point where they'll need to add a sixth difficulty level and later a seventh difficulty level. We don't have enough of a player population to even have a large chunck partially self-segregating into a new "Reaper" difficulty level without significantly exacerbating the "nobody to play with" issue.

The power gap just needs to be narrowed, and with nerfs not with buffs, so that the already over-extended dev team isn't having to both narrow the power gap with buffs and then consequently also need to do a pass on mobs to buff them to catch up.

[nokowi]

Yes, this is the problem because of runaway power creep reflective of a lack of restraint in giving out "worthwhile" (read: actually broken/overpowered) shinies to powergamer munchkins. And pay-to-win tomes with escalating values.



Most power creep is due to build choices.

If the old, non-revised classes are not OP, then it is the synergies created by the build passes that are causing the power gap. A new player is not smart enough to take advantage of everything in their build choices.

If the DDO player base were willing to accept nerfs, power creep would be under control. Regardless of the source, its tough to take away shinies after you hand them out.


Pay to win doesn't matter. You can accomplish everything without paying a dime.

Vets are not the problem. Getting rid of players knowledgeable enough to make a good build is not the answer to keeping DDO running.

[KoobTheProud]

One way to manage group vs solo scaling is to have instances that do not need to be completed for the full reward and that scale inside the instance.

You could have a large instance with multiple paths and levels in which soloability was possible down some of the paths and not down others. In which deeper levels increased mob difficulty and made grouping required and not optional. The end bosses could all be group only and in some cases only raidable for a guaranteed success. This would be putting the game back in the game again. It would be allowing everybody to poke their nose in without the expectation they had to finish to succeed.

There have been instances like this in the past. Raiyum's Tomb had multiple potential endpoints that gave decent XP and chests. I used to solo it with a hireling back in 2010, before power creep and my end point was usually one of the djinns or Hafez because I could not kill Raiyum or the other boss solo, their adds just routinely did me in. It was still good XP and loot and I'd run it anyway as a game with an occasional attempt at one of the impossible bosses at the end just to see if I'd figured it out yet or if the next level made a difference.

There were other instances that also gave a decent amount of partial XP also and were tougher at level further down also. I played fairly unoptimized characters in that time period but it wouldn't be hard to make similar dungeons for optimized characters today. And yes, I know that ToEE sort of qualifies as does Haunted Halls.

[Theoutlaw_JoseWalles]

I only read the first few posts of this thread so maybe someone has already brought up this .... Have you tried playing 3-4 levels over groups highest lvl player .... Just saying maybe you might be over thinking the problem ... Anyway feel free to lambast
me for not spending an hour of my time reading the whole **** thread

[changelingamuck]

If the DDO player base were willing to accept nerfs, power creep would be under control. Regardless of the source, its tough to take away shinies after you hand them out.

Pay to win doesn't matter. You can accomplish everything without paying a dime.

I think it would be a good approach to make it a future design goal to do a little rolling back of power creep in every update and patch. The slow, incremental reduction of the power creep would make the medicine a little easier for the brattier, don't-take-my-toys-away munchkin crowd to swallow. I mean, that's why power creep itself often goes unnoticed. It's rate of increase typically, subtly, inches along bit-by-bit over time with little boosts being added here and there. The same logic would work for combating it.

And then, hey, we wouldn't need to further separate the thinning player population into more new separate difficulties with ridiculous, over-the-top names like "Reaper". [I'd like the eventual sixth difficulty setting to be called "Deathpocalypse Reaper to the MAXX Extreme!" for full cheesy 90's effect, lol. shakin' my head.]

I disagree that pay-to-win doesn't matter. I see +7 Supreme Tomes of Ability as a rather large, and grotesque, example of power creep. The +3 Tomes of Fate are also an abhorrent example, especially so because Tomes of Fate aren't attainable by any means in game and players benefit from their full effect right away from level 20 onward.

[nokowi]

I think it would be a good approach to make it a future design goal to do a little rolling back of power creep in every update and patch. The slow, incremental reduction of the power creep would make the medicine a little easier for the brattier, don't-take-my-toys-away munchkin crowd to swallow. I mean, that's why power creep itself often goes unnoticed. It's rate of increase typically, subtly, inches along bit-by-bit over time with little boosts being added here and there. The same logic would work for combating it.

And then, hey, we wouldn't need to further separate the thinning player population into more new separate difficulties with ridiculous, over-the-top names like "Reaper". [I'd like the eventual sixth difficulty setting to be called "Deathpocalypse Reaper to the MAXX Extreme!" for full cheesy 90's effect, lol. shakin' my head.]

I disagree that pay-to-win doesn't matter. I see +7 Supreme Tomes of Ability as a rather large, and grotesque, example of power creep. The +3 Tomes of Fate are also an abhorrent example, especially so because Tomes of Fate aren't attainable by any means in game and players benefit from their full effect right away from level 20 onward.

You have a good idea, but the issue is that classes get revamped or released (with even worse power creep) faster than anything can be fixed.

You should have +5's and +6's on your main toons if you play regularly. +5's were from available from an event. There is nothing in the game a player can't do with +5 tomes that they can do with +7 tomes. Play to be Lazy is not the same as Pay to Win. Profiting off a players desire not to grind or to have easy access to something is the entire basis of a FTP model.

[janave]

.. do a little rolling back of power creep in every update and patch.

They already done this with U29 indirectly, via content. Every time they fail to address the few builds that are way-way-way out of line, they just have to do a pass on everything - the balancing started with melee vs casters, now we are back to casters. The whole circus is back on repeat.

Could have actually accomplish the balancing goals with 1/20 the resources, in 1 patch.

[HAL]

I gave up because all he was doing was making excuses and making it look like teamwork and something different to do in a quest as demeaning. instead of having multiple options to get through a quest if you didn't have a particular skill and playing in a group incentive quest (very D&D), he would rather play one option quests with fight 10 mobs before advancing so everyone can participate in a "reasonable" way. hes been in support of DDO being a solo MMO for years. I think hes playing the wrong game for what he wants.


DDO was already soloable before the population started declining. its still soloable now and nothing has changed so that we cant, except maybe in extremely specific cases that I cant think of off the top of my head. the point of the posts I made wasn't about being able to solo content or not. the point was that there are multiple options in quests, like Crucible, so that if you didn't have a specific build for one path there is options for any build down another path. that's what makes some of those older quests so great. they have a very D&D feel to them, unlike some of the newer quests where you have to kill mobs before proceeding. the discussion got very muddied by one poster that thinks there is only one path and that team play is poorly designed if you need another body to pull a lever.

Your complaint about him being in support of DDO being soloable lead me to believe that you were against it. I think that if a large percentage of quests had significant incentive (like an extra chest AND XP) to have support roles, that would be great. Unfortunately I think that would simply encourage people to splash rogue which used to happen a lot. And I can't think of any way to make healers more valuable that doesn't also discourage solo play.

[changelingamuck]

You should have +5's and +6's on your main toons if you play regularly. +5's were from available from an event. There is nothing in the game a player can't do with +5 tomes that they can do with +7 tomes. Play to be Lazy is not the same as Pay to Win. Profiting off a players desire not to grind or to have easy access to something is the entire basis of a FTP model.

That's a valid point. I think that newer players are going to have a much harder time reaching even +3 tomes across the board though because of drop rate changes, but I could be wrong. I don't begrudge people being able to buy tomes. I do think that there should be a hard cap on pay-to-win though. Like, say, okay, no higher ability tomes than +7, that's it. We've indulged in pay-to-win to an extent, but we're going to exercise restraint, be happy with the profit stream from having done that, and choose to look for profit elsewhere. Like, why are there so many old-style cosmetic armor kits that have never been updated to the new cosmetic slots system and put into the store again? The artwork already exists for those cosmetics. The process for converting them into the new cosmetic slot system already exists (they did convert some of them, but seemed to forget about it after that). Somebody can't take a day or two to finish that up and get a bunch of new store items that don't affect the balance of the game at all??? *sorry, going in the direction of a tangent*

Anyways, when they added the Tomes of Fate, I thought it was in poor taste. But okay, they put them in. +2 was the highest. I bought some fate tomes even though I have a rule for myself not to buy the similar ability or skill tomes. Fine. At least at that point, they should've just stopped and again been like, "okay, we indulged in profiting in that area. and we're done there." But then came the +3's (and not even +1's available from favor or raids)... It's not the fact that there's some pay-to-win in existence that is so bothersome; it's more the fact that there aren't self-imposed limits on it for the sake of propriety. That's what moves it from the area of being a necessity of a business model to being tacky excess, in my eyes.


They already done this with U29 indirectly, via content. Every time they fail to address the few builds that are way-way-way out of line, they just have to do a pass on everything - the balancing started with melee vs casters, now we are back to casters. The whole circus is back on repeat.

Could have actually accomplish the balancing goals with 1/20 the resources, in 1 patch.

Yeah, you're right. And the player community being so irrational about nerfs is largely to blame. The really frustrating thing is that, when people get an over-powered/broken thing, they foam at the mouth at the suggestion of a nerf and don't realize that it's going to be effectively nerfed the next time the mobs are re-balanced anyways! If their OP/broken new thing is dishing out unreasonable amounts of damage and trivializing content, the mobs are going to get more HP and PRR, MRR, DR, or whatever to compensate and that OP/broken thing won't be as special any more. It's just that all their other characters who don't have that OP/broken thing will be that much less capable because the content is balanced around that other character's over-the-top OP-ness. And it will waste the devs' time re-balancing the content against the OP thing in the process.

I want a flashing sign in my sig that says something like "Hello! Your OP thing that trivializes content will be nerfed one way or another; so accept the fact that a cakewalk game won't retain players, suck it up, and accept the nerf. Don't force more chaotic re-balancing into the game by nerd-raging and making the devs do an indirect nerf to your thing by buffing the mobs!"

[HAL]

So what then would be the point of making said Massively Multiplayer game? If a game's designed purpose is to be fun for someone playing alone, why try to adopt the title of "multiplayer?" This makes no sense to me.

"Come play our MMO! Sure you can group up if you really want to; but going it alone is faster, easier, and generally results in a more enjoyable play experience!"

If DDO (or any other "MMO" for that matter) had tried to pull me in with that sort of ad instead of "Friends don't let friends solo" I'd never have bothered with it. Maybe I'm alone in that sentiment, but I doubt it.

First, they hopefully wouldn't have you writing their marketing campaign lol. Second, most MMOs emphasize being able to play with your friends, or to make friends playing the game. If you do either of those things then playing in groups is great. But if you don't happen to do either of those things, or WHILE you are not doing either of those things, you can still play the game.

[HAL]

You have a good idea, but the issue is that classes get revamped or released (with even worse power creep) faster than anything can be fixed.

You should have +5's and +6's on your main toons if you play regularly. +5's were from available from an event. There is nothing in the game a player can't do with +5 tomes that they can do with +7 tomes. Play to be Lazy is not the same as Pay to Win. Profiting off a players desire not to grind or to have easy access to something is the entire basis of a FTP model.

We were restricted to getting only one +5 tome during the last Mabar event and then Mabar was discontinued. So characters couldn't get a complete set of +5 there (legally). I have many characters and the highest tome any of them has is that ONE +5 tome. I don't grind for tomes and I haven't purchased any from the store.

I think reeling back power creep would be great. Turbine could help combat power creep by keeping the game afloat with non-power items but I suspect that what sells best in the store is power. :(

[karatemack]

Your complaint about him being in support of DDO being soloable lead me to believe that you were against it. I think that if a large percentage of quests had significant incentive (like an extra chest AND XP) to have support roles, that would be great. Unfortunately I think that would simply encourage people to splash rogue which used to happen a lot. And I can't think of any way to make healers more valuable that doesn't also discourage solo play.

Healers could be given buffs which affect mrr (also, ac and prr too).

Buff up mob elemental damage and rescale how protection from elements and elemental resists scale for casters.

Buff up mob spell damage and make healer spell resistance meaningful.

Give more mobs damage over time from strong poisons, diseases, burning blood, etc that only healers can remove. It also makes the "one shot" self-healing less sustainable.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head.

[changelingamuck]

We were restricted to getting only one +5 tome during the last Mabar event and then Mabar was discontinued. So characters couldn't get a complete set of +5 there (legally). I have many characters and the highest tome any of them has is that ONE +5 tome. I don't grind for tomes and I haven't purchased any from the store.

I've never ground for ability tomes either and haven't purchased any. I missed that brief Mabar that was shut down early. I think I've got one character with one +5 tome and a handful of +4 tomes on a couple characters; mostly just +3's. And people who started playing after the anniversary cards are probably going to have to be extremely lucky or farming very, very hard to get higher than +2's. Having +7 tomes in the store is out-of-hand, I think. I'd at least stop it at an even number of having +6 tomes in the store and any tomes higher than that could only come from end-game raids. Forever. Too late for that now though.


I think reeling back power creep would be great. Turbine could help combat power creep by keeping the game afloat with non-power items but I suspect that what sells best in the store is power. :(

From what I've read (and it seemed reliable), there's a really big market for cosmetic items in every MMO. Introducing the Mirrors of Glamouring and cosmetic Weapon Auras was brilliant and not disruptive to game balance. Adding another + on tomes, tossing it in the store, and shrugging about the power gap between players has been... not so great. If you think about it, most newer, casual players aren't going to be laying down cash for end-game-level tomes when they may not even play to the end of the game. But they'll buy fluff items.

[HAL]

Healers could be given buffs which affect mrr (also, ac and prr too).

Buff up mob elemental damage and rescale how protection from elements and elemental resists scale for casters.

Buff up mob spell damage and make healer spell resistance meaningful.

Give more mobs damage over time from strong poisons, diseases, burning blood, etc that only healers can remove. It also makes the "one shot" self-healing less sustainable.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head.

Unfortunately these all discourage solo play.

[changelingamuck]

Give more mobs damage over time from strong poisons, diseases, burning blood, etc that only healers can remove. It also makes the "one shot" self-healing less sustainable.

I think poisons, diseases, and curses should be given caster levels. And Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease, and Remove Curse would have to beat the caster level in order to succeed just like how dispelling magic works. Vendor potions, wands and scrolls would, of course, have low caster levels unless used by an artificer.

Status effects shouldn't be worthless, wasted code in this game. They have the potential to add complexity to combat above-and-beyond the back-and-forth of pure DPS versus HP/Defenses.

[Enoach]

In my opinion the biggest contributor to anti group play is easy to access AoE Damage. It is now easy for Melee, Range and spell caster types to add this type of damage to all their hits.

This abundant AoE contributes to the view of DPS as King for the playstyle.

The other big contribution to this is actually more player interaction with each other. While some will argue that they are playing their character to its optimal and should not be berated for that or even crippled, the real aspect is has more with their own personal goals and feeling towards sharing and cooperation.

Sure DPS and short cuts are generally seen as the optimal playstyle, but it loses a lot of the Adventure that can still be gleaned from playing. Some of the best times I've had in DDO is with new quests coming out where people have not spent weeks on the PREVIEW server laying out the optimal paths, or when playing with newer players where I take on more of a support role (keeping them up and moving forward) so they can experience the quest without spoilers.

So If I could ask for two things it would be a reduction of AoE damage and for players to return to more of a cooperation aspect of playing. Remember just because you can does not always mean you should :)

[Kompera_Oberon]

I won't disagree with you that more playing will equal a more powerful toon, but that still doesn't address the issue of enjoyment. Mind you, I speak only for myself. I'm not trying to transfer my opinion onto anyone else. If your theoretical guy soloing five times per week were me, he'd be getting a lot less enjoyment from the experience.
Yeah, that's just an invented reason. I see that you're claiming to be only speaking for yourself, and that's fine. Make your point about your personal preferences and move on. But the way you phrase things it seems as though you are trying to expand your preferences to include other people. It doesn't work like that.

Looking at the history, Kuntz did play solo with Gygax for a long period of time. We can only speculate as to whether they found their play time to be "enjoyable," but most adults don't continue hitting themselves in the head with a hammer when it hurts. They do something else instead. So logically it can be assumed that both Kuntz and Gygax enjoyed their play sessions. And the result of those play sessions is a matter of history. Kuntz's solo play character became the most powerful character in the campaign. Just like a solo played character in DDO will become far more powerful than a character played only with their static group.

[Gremmlynn]

They can't do anything which will definitively improve the grouping experience, because that all depends on the players. But they can provide the mechanisms to encourage grouping by making it easier to do, less painful, and less time consuming. World of Warcraft (the movie trailer looks pretty sweet, check it out!) had a cross server grouping tool about 7 years ago. I was playing WoW when it was implemented, and even though at that time WoW had an enormous player base this cross server grouping tool improved grouping considerably. It cut the wait times for forming a group from 15+ minutes to under 5 minutes, and quite often I would just instantaneously be placed in a group the moment I signed up for a particular dungeon.We have a winner. Yes, the way to make grouping more popular is to remove the things that take away from that popularity. Not to discourage players from avoiding them with bribes or making solo play worse. That just encourages people to play a worse game or simply makes the overall game worse. Neither of which is something that encourages people to play the game at all.

[Gremmlynn]

1. The group scaling difficulty is too big

Instead of adding so much group scaling, just provide some quests that are challenging enough to warrant having a group. Provide enough of these that players who like grouping can level up using group quests. This would also give top players areas of challenge in solo mode.Scaling doesn't, or at least isn't supposed to (don't know if they fixed the 5th and 6th play reverse scaling effect), add anything to the game. what we get at 4 players is the quest as designed. Scaling just takes away from that default with less than 4 players.

If the game didn't have favor and make it so important and had the resources to make the extra content, that would work fine. As is, it would just make players feel they are missing out on something (whether they are right or wrong in feeling so makes zero difference on the games bottom line) and reduce the amount of content both groups have.

[Gremmlynn]

Yes, this is the problem because of runaway power creep reflective of a lack of restraint in giving out "worthwhile" (read: actually broken/overpowered) shinies to powergamer munchkins. And pay-to-win tomes with escalating values.



This is not the problem. The first thing was the problem. The power creep needs to be restrained and chipped away at. Otherwise, after the fifth difficulty level is introduced, they'll soon come to a point where they'll need to add a sixth difficulty level and later a seventh difficulty level. We don't have enough of a player population to even have a large chunck partially self-segregating into a new "Reaper" difficulty level without significantly exacerbating the "nobody to play with" issue.

The power gap just needs to be narrowed, and with nerfs not with buffs, so that the already over-extended dev team isn't having to both narrow the power gap with buffs and then consequently also need to do a pass on mobs to buff them to catch up.That's just pointing out a fundamental problem with the game who's roots go back to day one, though it really didn't manifest until the game grew past that. the issue is that if one is going to use a d20 system they have to build their game around every character at any given level range to be "on the die". That means the best and the worst AC, Hit bonus, DC and save (and anything else that uses a d20) to be less than 20 points apart. The same thing extends into other aspects of the game.

[Gremmlynn]

Most power creep is due to build choices.

If the old, non-revised classes are not OP, then it is the synergies created by the build passes that are causing the power gap. A new player is not smart enough to take advantage of everything in their build choices.

If the DDO player base were willing to accept nerfs, power creep would be under control. Regardless of the source, its tough to take away shinies after you hand them out.


Pay to win doesn't matter. You can accomplish everything without paying a dime.

Vets are not the problem. Getting rid of players knowledgeable enough to make a good build is not the answer to keeping DDO running.The build system allows to much magnitude of difference though.

[Gremmlynn]

Healers could be given buffs which affect mrr (also, ac and prr too).

Buff up mob elemental damage and rescale how protection from elements and elemental resists scale for casters.

Buff up mob spell damage and make healer spell resistance meaningful.

Give more mobs damage over time from strong poisons, diseases, burning blood, etc that only healers can remove. It also makes the "one shot" self-healing less sustainable.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head.And when we get bored waiting for a healer, what game do you suggest we play instead?

[Gremmlynn]

their own personal goals and feeling towards sharing and cooperation.How the hell do you think this can be fixed. That's basically one of the constants the game needs to be built to.

[Gremmlynn]

Yeah, that's just an invented reason. I see that you're claiming to be only speaking for yourself, and that's fine. Make your point about your personal preferences and move on. But the way you phrase things it seems as though you are trying to expand your preferences to include other people. It doesn't work like that.

Looking at the history, Kuntz did play solo with Gygax for a long period of time. We can only speculate as to whether they found their play time to be "enjoyable," but most adults don't continue hitting themselves in the head with a hammer when it hurts. They do something else instead. So logically it can be assumed that both Kuntz and Gygax enjoyed their play sessions. And the result of those play sessions is a matter of history. Kuntz's solo play character became the most powerful character in the campaign. Just like a solo played character in DDO will become far more powerful than a character played only with their static group.I have a feeling it was a matter of solo play being deemed better than not playing at all at those times. Which is about how I feel about DDO.

[Darkmits]

Healers could be given buffs which affect mrr (also, ac and prr too).

Buff up mob elemental damage and rescale how protection from elements and elemental resists scale for casters.

Buff up mob spell damage and make healer spell resistance meaningful.

Give more mobs damage over time from strong poisons, diseases, burning blood, etc that only healers can remove. It also makes the "one shot" self-healing less sustainable.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head.None of this is needed. What is needed is a nerf to Healing Amplification and Rejuvenation Cocoon. Nothing else.

Healers are already too powerful. The problem is that non-healers have also too powerful selfhealing, and that enemy design was made to accommodate that, making enemies hit for a significant part of your health bar.

[nokowi]

Scaling doesn't, or at least isn't supposed to (don't know if they fixed the 5th and 6th play reverse scaling effect), add anything to the game. what we get at 4 players is the quest as designed. Scaling just takes away from that default with less than 4 players.

If the game didn't have favor and make it so important and had the resources to make the extra content, that would work fine. As is, it would just make players feel they are missing out on something (whether they are right or wrong in feeling so makes zero difference on the games bottom line) and reduce the amount of content both groups have.

Scaling lets me finish all content on elite I solo on a rogue. It gives me no reason to need a group.

This discourages group play. I should be challenged on elite content (particularly in solo mode), and this is not happening except for a very few places. Lessening the scaling (particularly on elite) would do this.

[nokowi]

None of this is needed. What is needed is a nerf to Healing Amplification and Rejuvenation Cocoon. Nothing else.

Healers are already too powerful. The problem is that non-healers have also too powerful selfhealing, and that enemy design was made to accommodate that, making enemies hit for a significant part of your health bar.

Having healing options is fine. Cheap healing (Cocoon) is fine. Having a single button that takes a non-divine from 0 to full is the problem.

Divines, necro spec'd undead, and healing spec'd monks should have 1 button healing.

Most of the rest of us should need a combination of coccoon, LGS, past life haling over time, pots, scrolls, twists, and help from divines. These are enough healing options.

[karatemack]

Unfortunately these all discourage solo play.

I have no problem with group play being encouraged, so long as it isn't forced. Which of these proposed changes would FORCE people to group?

[Gremmlynn]

Scaling lets me finish all content on elite I solo on a rogue. It gives me no reason to need a group.Nor should it.


This discourages group play. I should be challenged on elite content (particularly in solo mode), and this is not happening except for a very few places. Lessening the scaling (particularly on elite) would do this.I am, so it seems to be working fine to me.