Understanding the power gap.

[Brac]

In DDO a tremendous power gap exists between newer and casual players and those that have been playing for a long time or concentrate on optimizing their character. This is a statement most realize and one that many will agree with. What I don’t think people understand is just how wide that gap really is.

In many MMO’s ways exist in game to measure one’s DPS. DDO has no such add on or in game way to achieve this so players have created standards of their own to measure DPS. DPS (damage per second) in DDO is actually a very significant number due to the quests in the game. Yes some have puzzles, yes some have jumping, but the majority of the quests determine completion time and ease by the amount of damage that a party can deal. The more DPS, the easier the quest.
What I think is unrealized is just how much DPS an elite built character does when compared to a casual character. When I refer to an elite character I am not referring to player skill. I literally mean the DPS just based on how the character is built. I experienced this first hand recently. I joined a group running EE Amrath DOJ flagging. I entered the quest late and the other two people, including the party leader, were perched on a ledge and trying to focus fire mobs coming out of a portal. I walked up and cleared all of the mobs in less than 5 seconds. I then continued to the next portal and cleared all of the mobs in 5 seconds again. The two people had been focus firing on a single mob for about a minute before I came in and they had 1 kill. The party leader was in shock and asked what insta-kill I was using to so this. I told him it wasn’t, just DPS. He couldn’t believe it at first. I also was not using a LGS, so that was not an explanation. By the end of the series I averaged 150 kills and the next closest out of a filled group was 20, with the other 4 people in single digits.

Throughout the quest many comments were made by the party members. Some were just amazement “wow I can’t wait till I get there”, others were insulting “he is clearly cheating”, and others were of boredom “we don’t even need to go into the last room, just let Bracc kill the end guy and we can get our loot.” Now all of this can be good for the ego, but is it good for the game?

My character is a heroic and epic completionist and 90%+ fully geared. I am not optimized but it is clearly good enough. Most everyone has been in a party with a character like mine or has a character like mine. So in theory you can understand the power level. But I don’t really think you do.

My character’s DPS is 2000 aoe (area of effect). Right now some people are thinking I am lying. Some people think it is impossible, some people think that is kinda low, some people think I need to put in some work to get my character up to snuff before they let me in their LE raids again. On the DDO power scale I am about a 6.

The problem we currently have with the game is that many other people that think they are a 6, are actually a 2. People do not realize how big the gap is because their DPS is 300, and the think that is pretty good. In their wildest dreams they think they could maybe hit 500. They have no idea how low that is when compared to higher end characters. They may even have a couple heroic and epic past lives and a couple pieces of raid gear and think they are a higher end character.

The reason you have constant debate about game difficulty is because these players ranging between 200 and 5000 DPS are all running the same quests, and sometimes together. Turbine has some idea of the gap. That is why different quest difficulties exist. The problem is that everyone wants to be or thinks they are elite. There is a good portion of the player population trying to run EE quests in misery or riding coat tails when they should really be running normal. The problem is even greater due to low server populations. It is not like someone can wait around for a normal difficulty to fill. So you have to solo, and if you can’t, join the elite or hard and pretend you are helping. But pretending to help isn’t fun for players.

This large gap is also why we have players getting one shot in LE content. Not because they are low end or shouldn’t be in there, it is because Turbine knows there is a huge gap but they also are not sure how high it goes. They want the mobs to be a threat, but if you don’t know exactly how powerful your top players are, it is hard to guess. I have run LE content. I can tell you the mobs die fast and if they hit you it is either a one or two shot. I don’t think the balance is probably right in either direction. In an ideal model the mobs take some effort to kill and the players can heal through damage if they play together. But that’s not something that will get solved today.

I also think it needs to be addressed that the “top end” players are not a small portion of the player base like some would lead you to believe. People like to put “elite players” on a pedestal and act like there are only a handful of people playing at this level and the game should not cater to them. If the few players quit it is no loss. I can tell you that the majority of players I know are close to my power level or above it. I am not even triple completionist and many are. I am a VIP, always have been, and I have purchased multiple Otto’s boxes, Supreme Tomes, XP Pots, Mana Pots, additional Turbine points, etc. I am an ideal customer for Turbine and so are many of the players I run with. We are not a small group.

I do not have an easy fix to make everyone happy. But I think realizing how different the power levels are can at least give people a better understanding of where an opposing view point is coming from. In the end we all just want to have fun. Different quest difficulty levels are a good way to get there. We just need to help Turbine realize how different a casual difficulty and elite difficulty should be.

[FranOhmsford]

In DDO a tremendous power gap exists between newer and casual players and those that have been playing for a long time or concentrate on optimizing their character. This is a statement most realize and one that many will agree with. What I don’t think people understand is just how wide that gap really is.

Finally someone gets it!


In many MMO’s ways exist in game to measure one’s DPS. DDO has no such add on or in game way to achieve this so players have created standards of their own to measure DPS. DPS (damage per second) in DDO is actually a very significant number due to the quests in the game. Yes some have puzzles, yes some have jumping, but the majority of the quests determine completion time and ease by the amount of damage that a party can deal. The more DPS, the easier the quest.
What I think is unrealized is just how much DPS an elite built character does when compared to a casual character. When I refer to an elite character I am not referring to player skill. I literally mean the DPS just based on how the character is built. I experienced this first hand recently. I joined a group running EE Amrath DOJ flagging. I entered the quest late and the other two people, including the party leader, were perched on a ledge and trying to focus fire mobs coming out of a portal. I walked up and cleared all of the mobs in less than 5 seconds. I then continued to the next portal and cleared all of the mobs in 5 seconds again. The two people had been focus firing on a single mob for about a minute before I came in and they had 1 kill. The party leader was in shock and asked what insta-kill I was using to so this. I told him it wasn’t, just DPS. He couldn’t believe it at first. I also was not using a LGS, so that was not an explanation. By the end of the series I averaged 150 kills and the next closest out of a filled group was 20, with the other 4 people in single digits.

The new quests are almost exclusively aimed at characters/builds with high AoE DPS.

I don't play EEs more than once per Life {and then only Sagas and Quests I can't get the Favour for on Heroic} and barely play ENs if they're not Dailies but I can at least give my experience of Heroic Elite BBs as I've run pretty much every Class and many multiclass builds through to Lvl 20+ {Druid I gave up at 16}.

Just one example for now though - Pure Drow Fey Warlock in ES {2nd Life with 1 Wiz Past Life} vs Morninglord Fighter 12/ Monk 7 / Cleric 1 {3rd Life with 1 Monk and 1 Fighter Past Life and Multiple Epic Past Lives}.
The difference is phenomenal!
Because the Warlock has high AoE DPS {well high for me which equals at that level enough to two shot everything with EB and SB}. While the Monk has Whirlwind Attack and nothing else so basically ZERO AoE DPS!

Get them both into Epics and the difference remains - Yes the Monk now has EIN if he's in GMoF but that's on a massive timer AND needs building up anyway!
Meanwhile the Warlock = EB, SB, EB and everything's dead!


Throughout the quest many comments were made by the party members. Some were just amazement “wow I can’t wait till I get there”, others were insulting “he is clearly cheating”, and others were of boredom “we don’t even need to go into the last room, just let Bracc kill the end guy and we can get our loot.” Now all of this can be good for the ego, but is it good for the game?

I truly believe that something that's missed on these forums is that people don't like feeling useless!
Yes you get the odd "Piker" who's just after a completion and doesn't care how he gets it but on the whole people aren't happy when they feel they're not contributing.


My character is a heroic and epic completionist and 90%+ fully geared. I am not optimized but it is clearly good enough. Most everyone has been in a party with a character like mine or has a character like mine. So in theory you can understand the power level. But I don’t really think you do.

Heroic and Epic Completionist and 90% fully geared?
AND YOU SAY YOU'RE NOT OPTIMIZED?

Lol!

This is why Turbine needs to start implementing "Overkill"!
So that that ridiculous amount of optimization is removed from the game!


My character’s DPS is 2000 aoe (area of effect). Right now some people are thinking I am lying. Some people think it is impossible, some people think that is kinda low, some people think I need to put in some work to get my character up to snuff before they let me in their LE raids again. On the DDO power scale I am about a 6.

I've heard people talking about DPS of 50k {I think that was with a non WAI feature that has since been fixed} so yes 2k does sound low BUT I honestly believe the only one of my characters that can even come close to that 2k is my Warlock.


The problem we currently have with the game is that many other people that think they are a 6, are actually a 2. People do not realize how big the gap is because their DPS is 300, and the think that is pretty good. In their wildest dreams they think they could maybe hit 500. They have no idea how low that is when compared to higher end characters. They may even have a couple heroic and epic past lives and a couple pieces of raid gear and think they are a higher end character.

I think you're overstating the case a bit here - Where are all the 3s, 4s and 5s exactly, where are all the 7s, 8s and 9s?
You may as well just say 1,2,3 as 2,6,10.


The reason you have constant debate about game difficulty is because these players ranging between 200 and 5000 DPS are all running the same quests, and sometimes together. Turbine has some idea of the gap. That is why different quest difficulties exist. The problem is that everyone wants to be or thinks they are elite. There is a good portion of the player population trying to run EE quests in misery or riding coat tails when they should really be running normal. The problem is even greater due to low server populations. It is not like someone can wait around for a normal difficulty to fill. So you have to solo, and if you can’t, join the elite or hard and pretend you are helping. But pretending to help isn’t fun for players.

OK I'm replying to the bolded part here because I pretty much agree with everything else you've said in the above paragraph.

FAVOUR!
SAGAS!
RENOWN!
These things cannot be got by running Normal or even Hard!

I don't mind taking a bit longer to get my Loot, I've never worried too much about XP....It comes as it comes!
BUT there's no way I'm dropping down to Hard in Heroics so long as my Guild still needs Renown and I still need Favour!
There's no way I'm running Epic Saga Quests on anything other than EE - It's just a waste of my time to do so!

I believe a lot of the people you're talking about here are like me {maybe they care more about XP than me and less about Renown but the Favour is the biggie!} and also don't see Normal or Hard as worth their time!

There's also the fact that there's a very wide gap between Hard and Elite.
And an even wider gap between Normal and Hard thanks to Champions being added to Hard {which in no way narrowed the gap between hard and elite btw - it made BOTH harder by the same amount so the gap is just as wide as it always was...Only there's now a bigger gap between Normal and Hard!}.

I'm fully capable of Soloing E-BBs up to Lvl 18 {and on some characters even Vale} so long as the Quest doesn't have a Puzzle I need someone else to solve. Why should I drop down to Hard exactly?

In Epics the problem is the exact opposite - I can go IP in EN VoN3 in the knowledge that there's a good chance at least 2 people will have joined me before the quest is finished {I can solo it anyway so it doesn't matter if no-one joins either!}.
However: If I put the Group up for EH and no-one joins do I have the DPS to take down the Marut - Actually yes but the quest as a whole will take me half as long again as EN for maybe 5k more XP - Why should I bother with EH again?
EE = Lol, Not a Chance, I'll be dead in the first room if I attempt to go IP on EE Solo! {talking about a Lvl 20 Character here btw}.


This large gap is also why we have players getting one shot in LE content. Not because they are low end or shouldn’t be in there, it is because Turbine knows there is a huge gap but they also are not sure how high it goes. They want the mobs to be a threat, but if you don’t know exactly how powerful your top players are, it is hard to guess. I have run LE content. I can tell you the mobs die fast and if they hit you it is either a one or two shot. I don’t think the balance is probably right in either direction. In an ideal model the mobs take some effort to kill and the players can heal through damage if they play together. But that’s not something that will get solved today.

Unfortunately we're way past the point where the Devs can fix this issue without adding another difficulty setting.

Call it Reaper if you like, Or Mythic, Or Challenge, Or Whatever.
But it needs to be specifically a Group difficulty where a Duo Completion is seen as a Real Achievement and a Solo Completion is nigh on impossible even for the fully optimized Triple Completionist!
AND
It needs to give rewards that are Cosmetic only OR tied to that difficulty {say Pots that can only be used if in a quest on Reaper.}.
The main rewards will be the Bragging Rights for some and the feeling of Challenge for others!


I also think it needs to be addressed that the “top end” players are not a small portion of the player base like some would lead you to believe. People like to put “elite players” on a pedestal and act like there are only a handful of people playing at this level and the game should not cater to them. If the few players quit it is no loss. I can tell you that the majority of players I know are close to my power level or above it. I am not even triple completionist and many are. I am a VIP, always have been, and I have purchased multiple Otto’s boxes, Supreme Tomes, XP Pots, Mana Pots, additional Turbine points, etc. I am an ideal customer for Turbine and so are many of the players I run with. We are not a small group.

You're definitely overstating the case here!

Yes there's a lot of players now who can cope with EEs but I still see plenty of LN Raids and EH DoJ Fails!

And exactly how many players are you talking about in your circle? 20? 50? Chances are it's on the lower end and you're counting fully geared up alts too.
How many players do you think are playing the game? Peak Hours we're talking about 400 online on each server bar Wayfinder at any one time - Most of whom are nowhere near Epics!
Yes 400 online is incredibly low for an MMO and DDO really needs to start looking at Server Mergers AND Aggressive advertising but percentage wise your Elite Players are a very small number of the total Population!


I do not have an easy fix to make everyone happy. But I think realizing how different the power levels are can at least give people a better understanding of where an opposing view point is coming from. In the end we all just want to have fun. Different quest difficulty levels are a good way to get there. We just need to help Turbine realize how different a casual difficulty and elite difficulty should be.

And you have to realize that there's no point to a "Casual" difficulty that no-one runs!

DDO has 3 difficulties in Heroics like that - Casual, Normal and Hard!
DDO also has 2 difficulties in Epics like that - Casual and Hard {Seriously - You've got EN for XP and EE for Favour/Sagas, EH gives absolutely NOTHING!}.



Risk/Reward!
EE provides Risk AND Reward
EN provides Reward for no Risk
EH provides NEITHER!

Solution - Reduce the requirements for a True Elite Saga Reward in Epics low enough so that only half of the total quests have to be run on EE {Immediately Sagas start getting run on EH as well as EE - They still won't get run on EN but that's not a problem!}.
Example:
Gianthold:
Crucible, Tor, PoP, Madstone and Cabal have to be run on EE to qualify but the 5 Walkups can be run on EH {Or the other way round or any combination to get the required score.}.
Of course you can gain two EE Completions via skipping too if you're VIP {Just the one if not VIP but you have 5 AS}.
Storm Horns, Wheloon etc.
What Goes up and Mirror = Guaranteed Skips for me even on Heroic if I do these Sagas more than once per Life! On Epic there's no way I'm running ANY of these quests more than once per Life {and even then I'll only run them once on Epic if I'm going for a full Saga set OR if I missed Heroic through outleveling it and we all know the chances of getting an Heroic Group together if you're not at BB level!}.

[Qhualor]

the new random loot, in many cases, shrinks that gap. for a long time now, named loot has been easier to acquire such as P2WAH and 20th completions. the biggest differences between the casual/new player and the experienced player is the experience as in quest, build and metagame knowledge and experienced players have been acquiring gear much longer.

this is the thing that has been borked since Bravery Bonus. elite is the default difficulty in many cases, while normal and hard typically is more path of least resistance while earning fast/easy xp or loot. casual/new players should be running normal or hard to gain the experience and knowledge before jumping into elite. there wouldn't be any worry over "gap" if players stuck to difficulty settings that they are more comfortable with. this is a system I would like the devs to seriously start addressing because I do believe it affects quest design as a whole and affects new players perception of the game.

no, its not good for the game. see why I think so above.

yes I do.

players not understanding build potential is pretty common in this game. there are times I feel inferior in a group and there are times when I feel like im carrying the group. ive seen unbelievable numbers presented on the forums that look unrealistic and ive seen what some of those numbers really translate into during actual game play, with or without party members and with strong players and with players that are not. it just has to boil down to how you feel about your build and, of course there is always room for improvement, where you believe your level of play skill, build and knowledge really fit.

I see this all the time. there will always be someone that comes along and shows them up. I don't mean that in a bad way. sometimes I even learn from other players on how to improve my build or skill when they show me up.

ah-huh! the train is on the right track here.

first fix the difficulty settings so that players run what they are most comfortable with, than you can balance Legendary to the 1%. this itself is a big discussion on how to do this, but I know that the devs don't want to go back and make adjustments to difficulty settings in old content. I do think this is something they plan on addressing this year or it wouldn't have been a question in the PC questionnaire.

eh, you said you are a 6. I wouldn't say there aren't that many top end elite players, but I don't think there are a lot of them. the number of players I know, probably 1% of them I would consider top end. the problem is that players brute force their way through content and think because they completed they must be elite players. this after they died multiple times and had to be healed a lot or drank a lot of pots. another problem is that a lot of players base "elite player" because of how fast he completed content solo. if you take your time and strategize more instead of running in head first, it may take much longer, but its still dismissed. there are threads of players completing the same content 5x quicker.

yes, but those threads always turn insulting and players unwilling to drop down difficulties threatening to leave the game. sensible discussions on this is hard to come by.

[eris2323]

Solution - Reduce the requirements for a True Elite Saga Reward in Epics low enough so that only half of the total quests have to be run on EE {Immediately Sagas start getting run on EH as well as EE - They still won't get run on EN but that's not a problem!}.
Example:
Gianthold:
Crucible, Tor, PoP, Madstone and Cabal have to be run on EE to qualify but the 5 Walkups can be run on EH {Or the other way round or any combination to get the required score.}.
Of course you can gain two EE Completions via skipping too if you're VIP {Just the one if not VIP but you have 5 AS}.
Storm Horns, Wheloon etc.
What Goes up and Mirror = Guaranteed Skips for me even on Heroic if I do these Sagas more than once per Life! On Epic there's no way I'm running ANY of these quests more than once per Life {and even then I'll only run them once on Epic if I'm going for a full Saga set OR if I missed Heroic through outleveling it and we all know the chances of getting an Heroic Group together if you're not at BB level!}.
Whaaaaat? No way. Everyone doesn't have to get elite sagas. They should be for the best of the best. Don't water it down with this idea to make it easier to get elite completions with just running hard content.

I consider myself a fairly good player, and I don't even bother with EE sagas, I generally run EH sagas for the speed increase... so therefore, I don't deserve the EE completion. And neither does anyone else, unless they run it all on EE, like they're supposed to!

[Postumus]

In DDO a tremendous power gap exists between newer and casual players and those that have been playing for a long time or concentrate on optimizing their character. This is a statement most realize and one that many will agree with. What I don’t think people understand is just how wide that gap really is.

In many MMO’s ways exist in game to measure one’s DPS. DDO has no such add on or in game way to achieve this so players have created standards of their own to measure DPS. DPS (damage per second) in DDO is actually a very significant number due to the quests in the game. Yes some have puzzles, yes some have jumping, but the majority of the quests determine completion time and ease by the amount of damage that a party can deal. The more DPS, the easier the quest.
What I think is unrealized is just how much DPS an elite built character does when compared to a casual character. When I refer to an elite character I am not referring to player skill. I literally mean the DPS just based on how the character is built. I experienced this first hand recently. I joined a group running EE Amrath DOJ flagging. I entered the quest late and the other two people, including the party leader, were perched on a ledge and trying to focus fire mobs coming out of a portal. I walked up and cleared all of the mobs in less than 5 seconds. I then continued to the next portal and cleared all of the mobs in 5 seconds again. The two people had been focus firing on a single mob for about a minute before I came in and they had 1 kill. The party leader was in shock and asked what insta-kill I was using to so this. I told him it wasn’t, just DPS. He couldn’t believe it at first. I also was not using a LGS, so that was not an explanation. By the end of the series I averaged 150 kills and the next closest out of a filled group was 20, with the other 4 people in single digits.

Throughout the quest many comments were made by the party members. Some were just amazement “wow I can’t wait till I get there”, others were insulting “he is clearly cheating”, and others were of boredom “we don’t even need to go into the last room, just let Bracc kill the end guy and we can get our loot.” Now all of this can be good for the ego, but is it good for the game?

My character is a heroic and epic completionist and 90%+ fully geared. I am not optimized but it is clearly good enough. Most everyone has been in a party with a character like mine or has a character like mine. So in theory you can understand the power level. But I don’t really think you do.

My character’s DPS is 2000 aoe (area of effect). Right now some people are thinking I am lying. Some people think it is impossible, some people think that is kinda low, some people think I need to put in some work to get my character up to snuff before they let me in their LE raids again. On the DDO power scale I am about a 6.

The problem we currently have with the game is that many other people that think they are a 6, are actually a 2. People do not realize how big the gap is because their DPS is 300, and the think that is pretty good. In their wildest dreams they think they could maybe hit 500. They have no idea how low that is when compared to higher end characters. They may even have a couple heroic and epic past lives and a couple pieces of raid gear and think they are a higher end character.

The reason you have constant debate about game difficulty is because these players ranging between 200 and 5000 DPS are all running the same quests, and sometimes together. Turbine has some idea of the gap. That is why different quest difficulties exist. The problem is that everyone wants to be or thinks they are elite. There is a good portion of the player population trying to run EE quests in misery or riding coat tails when they should really be running normal. The problem is even greater due to low server populations. It is not like someone can wait around for a normal difficulty to fill. So you have to solo, and if you can’t, join the elite or hard and pretend you are helping. But pretending to help isn’t fun for players.

This large gap is also why we have players getting one shot in LE content. Not because they are low end or shouldn’t be in there, it is because Turbine knows there is a huge gap but they also are not sure how high it goes. They want the mobs to be a threat, but if you don’t know exactly how powerful your top players are, it is hard to guess. I have run LE content. I can tell you the mobs die fast and if they hit you it is either a one or two shot. I don’t think the balance is probably right in either direction. In an ideal model the mobs take some effort to kill and the players can heal through damage if they play together. But that’s not something that will get solved today.

I also think it needs to be addressed that the “top end” players are not a small portion of the player base like some would lead you to believe. People like to put “elite players” on a pedestal and act like there are only a handful of people playing at this level and the game should not cater to them. If the few players quit it is no loss. I can tell you that the majority of players I know are close to my power level or above it. I am not even triple completionist and many are. I am a VIP, always have been, and I have purchased multiple Otto’s boxes, Supreme Tomes, XP Pots, Mana Pots, additional Turbine points, etc. I am an ideal customer for Turbine and so are many of the players I run with. We are not a small group.

I do not have an easy fix to make everyone happy. But I think realizing how different the power levels are can at least give people a better understanding of where an opposing view point is coming from. In the end we all just want to have fun. Different quest difficulty levels are a good way to get there. We just need to help Turbine realize how different a casual difficulty and elite difficulty should be.


Great post.

[Brac]

Heroic and Epic Completionist and 90% fully geared?
AND YOU SAY YOU'RE NOT OPTIMIZED?

Lol!

Part of why I am a 6 in DPS. By not optimized, I do not have max stat items on, most are still +11. I do not have full spell power. I have not maximized my PPR, MMR, or HP. I am good, but I could certainly be better.


I've heard people talking about DPS of 50k {I think that was with a non WAI feature that has since been fixed} so yes 2k does sound low BUT I honestly believe the only one of my characters that can even come close to that 2k is my Warlock.

50k was with the broken LGS. It is not the case now.




I think you're overstating the case a bit here - Where are all the 3s, 4s and 5s exactly, where are all the 7s, 8s and 9s?
You may as well just say 1,2,3 as 2,6,10.

If you would like me to create a base line I will:

DPS Chart

1=100
2=300
3=500
4=750
5=1000
6=2000
7=3000
8=4000
9=5000
10= over 5K




OK I'm replying to the bolded part here because I pretty much agree with everything else you've said in the above paragraph.

FAVOUR!
SAGAS!
RENOWN!
These things cannot be got by running Normal or even Hard!

You are illustrating my point perfectly here. You believe you are entitled to run on elite to get the rewards. Yet me and you both know you still get rewards by running on other difficulties they are just smaller. You probably should not be running on elite unless you can handle it. You are not entitled to elite rewards just because you want them.

[AngryDude]

It really seems like an asymmetry of knowledge and experience that is the topic of your post. There are plenty of completionist and epic completionist toons. The +2 is diluted with 75 stats at cap so not big power creep there. The extra hp and prr from epics and iconics help. Everything helps a little bit. +7 tome difference might be the main difference between new and completionists.

Back to knowledge:
Look at the shuriken tosser. There are always new builds. It's the lowest damage 1-2 weapon but it has a fan club.
The game is flexible , complex, gives room to be inventive and discover builds that work very nicely. With all that it's not very easy for a new player to understand everything so the newness is reflected in builds.

[Postumus]

If you would like me to create a base line I will:

DPS Chart

1=100
2=300
3=500
4=750
5=1000
6=2000
7=3000
8=4000
9=5000
10= over 9000!



fixed. :)

[Taimasan]

+1

[LordPiglet]

OK I'm replying to the bolded part here because I pretty much agree with everything else you've said in the above paragraph.

FAVOUR!
SAGAS!
RENOWN!
These things cannot be got by running Normal or even Hard!


False, all those things are earned by running normal or hard. You just earn less then if you'd run elite. So what, some times you're not ready for Elite, then back it down, refine your tactics, gear, or just plane be over level and then try it at the harder difficulty.








Yes there's a lot of players now who can cope with EEs but I still see plenty of LN Raids and EH DoJ Fails!


Stuff happens, DOJ is tactically harder both Hound and temptest spine. We 4 manned both those raids the first night, just got in to mess around and see what they were like, how difficult they were. We might have been able to 4 man DoJ, but no guarantee.




Risk/Reward!
EE provides Risk AND Reward
EN provides Reward for no Risk
EH provides NEITHER!

Solution - Reduce the requirements for a True Elite Saga Reward in Epics low enough so that only half of the total quests have to be run on EE {Immediately Sagas start getting run on EH as well as EE - They still won't get run on EN but that's not a problem!}.
Example:
Gianthold:
Crucible, Tor, PoP, Madstone and Cabal have to be run on EE to qualify but the 5 Walkups can be run on EH {Or the other way round or any combination to get the required score.}.
Of course you can gain two EE Completions via skipping too if you're VIP {Just the one if not VIP but you have 5 AS}.
Storm Horns, Wheloon etc.
What Goes up and Mirror = Guaranteed Skips for me even on Heroic if I do these Sagas more than once per Life! On Epic there's no way I'm running ANY of these quests more than once per Life {and even then I'll only run them once on Epic if I'm going for a full Saga set OR if I missed Heroic through outleveling it and we all know the chances of getting an Heroic Group together if you're not at BB level!}.

There is an "Elite" saga reward for people who run a mix of EH and EE already. If you can't run at Elite (after trying), then don't. There is more then one level of saga reward, there is more then one level of difficulty. All difficutlies give you xp and chances at loot.

[Marshal_Lannes]

OP, you are a good example of why past lives need to be removed for the good of the game. Thank you for your example! As you point out, you were a detrement to the fun of your entire group. From your description people just stopped playing and took on the role of Varsity Cheerleaders to watch you solo the quest and pick up their loot. This is obviously not good for the game. Clearly no one wants to play in this environment except other 1% players. No one wants to play a game where their characters are not relevant.

This aberration of TR power is not a creep - it is a chasm that eventually needs to be bridged.

I continue to urge the creation of a DDO Classic Server where these mini-Thor's are not allowed to dominate game play.

[Holymunchkin]

Some people are missing the point entirely.

+1 Bracc well said.

[Darkmits]

By this chart, I'm below 1 on DPS. Or is this for lvl30 alone?

My issue with the power gap isn't that it exists or that it is too large. If anything, I firmly believe that an experienced player will wipe the floor on an entirely new f2p account compared to someone who hasn't played DDO and is given a fully past-lived full-BiS for every level character.

[mikarddo]

Good post OP, thanks.

A part of the problem is that DDO in its present state is such a simple game.

Which buffs do you bother asking for from others? Deadly and Death Ward, maybe. Anything else isnt important enough to wait for - you have it almost all yourself and the rest is peanuts.

Which debuffs do you really want others to land on the mobs you fight? Well, none really. Sure, its nice if they debuff but its not really important.

Trappers? Apart from the xp bonus when do you really care if traps are done or locked chests opened? Hidden doors? Np, you have 90+ search yourself on almost any build.

Running together as a team? Nah, run as fast as possible to get as many kills as possible - or split up to finish faster.

Tanking? Offtanking? Kiting? Healing? Healkiting? Buffing? Trapping? Debuffing? CC? Teamwork?
None of these really apply to DDO (quests certainly not, raids not much). Its all about personal dps because that conquers all - and the gains from synergizing with others is tiny in comparison (except for splitting up in some quests). Also, it doesnt really matter which class (or multiclass) you play - the differences are minimal except that some can deliver a much larger punch - but none really offer much if anything except for "solo dps" to a group (of capable players).

So, since all other things are irrelevant and you need *something* to make people develop their characters that something has become single character solo power - and grouping is soloing alongside some others more often simply to see how gets the most kills.

I doubt anything can or will be done at this point. We are simply too far down the road. But imagine mobs that lasted long enough to debuff which would more often than not kill you if no debuffing is done while they would become kittens once fully defuffed? Or imagine solo power being low but buffs from others existing that could cumulatively double your power or more?

Imagine if 95% of your effectiveness didnt come from yourself but only 50% with the other 50% coming from synergyzing with the group?

[AzureDragonas]

OP, you are a good example of why past lives need to be removed for the good of the game. Thank you for your example! As you point out, you were a detrement to the fun of your entire group. From your description people just stopped playing and took on the role of Varsity Cheerleaders to watch you solo the quest and pick up their loot. This is obviously not good for the game. Clearly no one wants to play in this environment except other 1% players. No one wants to play a game where their characters are not relevant.

This aberration of TR power is not a creep - it is a chasm that eventually needs to be bridged.

I continue to urge the creation of a DDO Classic Server where these mini-Thor's are not allowed to dominate game play.

Blaming pl feats people earned, instead of admiting you are issue yourself and others are just better, in your so preclaimed "remove all pl bonuses" sccenario will you get better? -obviosuly not, we will get dozen people leaving game becouse they earned those little bonuses and worked hard for them and now they lost all theyr progression, and left so in end bad players like you who can't accept they are bad will be remaining.

Biggest issue between casual and veterans are obviosuly:
Casual - have no idea about building, have no gear, don't farm gear, don't even try learn or ask others anything, at best they capacity just copy veteran builds they see but anyway in most cases fails to use them couse of they lack of experience.
Veterans - design theyr builds, invest time, try get any possible benefit, do research, knows basic mechanics, how each class split effect works, have gear or works on it.

There are no casual players but only players who are lacking base knowlodge or ignores it, becouse they can't accept them. Some people don't know what is SLA or how to use them, some people don't know where to get gear or how to do quests.
There are advice chanel, there is wiki, there are forums all they need to do is ask but are they doing it?

Simple example recruited fvs in guild player having ~6-7 lifes, who was not able run epics being too hard, had no idea about sla, in less than 30 minutes with some gear and feat swap by veteran advices he runs perfectly ee with veterans now way above level he was reaching before. All what was need guidance and advices by veteran to make unworking build to work. PK is out of whack and its mostly couse of gear/ed/class passes issue certain part of people are smart enough to use it and others are bad and unable to do that.

We blame warlocks for being OP? - Yes they made a sorc which actualy dont use sp or don't need even DC to work and we call that OP, but yet same people ignore those same Sorc using bursts and blasts of damage 5 number digit when properly build.

Most threads here are how to make OP class even more OP, becouse certain part of ppl instead of actualy building properly demands to be able with clsoe to no effort be strong as gods in game. There are more examples of how broken some classes become, at 19 in Elite sins my barbarian was just standing in red alert clearing monsters 20-30 monsters with full bar hp without even using single heal - WHY? Becouse thats how current barb works, and yet some claim they can't solo normal on barbarian in lower level.

Casual players deserve to play normal difficulty and veterans elite, and there is no reason to downgrade content to casual level players, while they don't even try to catch up to veterans,

[Bird]

TL;DR: I'm Uber.

[Eth]

Very good post.



I do not have an easy fix to make everyone happy. But I think realizing how different the power levels are can at least give people a better understanding of where an opposing view point is coming from. In the end we all just want to have fun. Different quest difficulty levels are a good way to get there. We just need to help Turbine realize how different a casual difficulty and elite difficulty should be.

What you are describing - building a character that works well - is actually one of DDOs core strengths.
Sure, you are free to go and build whatever kind of flavor toon you want, no ones going to stop you...

But I think it would be helpful to newer players, that are just looking for something to start with, that is not utterly gimped, to give them a hand on how to build something useful.

So, a start would be useful standard paths.
Especially the revamped classes all have some rather easily built pure builds now, which also work great on the highest difficulties.

[janave]

What does not help is you begin on a 1-5 scale just by class selection, then some classes scale->onprogress much better than others or simply have access to more ways to boost power.

Add in another 1-5 multiplier if you do choose a synergistic race, in case of -forged it can completely offset the defensive trade off of a nuker class. Glass cannons auto turn into Tank Cannon s :)

Banked gear and Past life feats (especially the epic PLs that have no place in 1-20 content)

And lastly, allowing non-wai combination of out of scale abilities is not great. Because the new player wont have a chance to learn about these but on occasion a bored veteran join s a top level raid and keeps braggin ;)

[Robbenklopper]

Good post Brac! /+1

There is a gap between newbies and veterans having optimized their builds. You start with knowledge in build, synergys, powers, tactics, quests and gear. And it´s ok imo. Some People seem to have no idea how to build, some do a flavor build, some build for exploit, some built min/max and some build for legal optimized. Experience does matter, but not only in "Level numbers". Knowing and real measuring of own powers is a key to difficulty and being ready for it. For some poeple it´s frustrating, but "know your place" or try harder. Once you gained your experience in gameplay etc, you get better and aquiered more better gear to "grow". You read the Forums, you have friends giving advice and it´s getting better and better. Then you reach the Point where you´ll have to decide between being a Player or a gamer. For a gamer, imo, the only choice is to go the right class and the best classing (for DPS and or viability). For me as a Player, and only doing pure builds, it´s a challenge and you see differences. Whatever you try doing optimized as possible, classes contribute to the power gap a lot. A pure warlock lvl30 is superior to a pure s&b fighter lvl30 , a pure barbarian lvl30 is superior to a pure Monk lvl30, no matter how hard you try and can only considered as a "flavor-build".
Let me Quote a friend who said "Everything besides a warlock is rerollable", but ofc there are many other strong builds. Whatever, as Long as one is having fun with his build it´s ok. If your fun is turning to unfun when failing in some quest/difficulty, you Need to Change something and stop complaining. Creative suggestions for improvements or Analysis about the state of things are wanted.

[kemetka]

Thought I'd lend my thoughts to this with a bit of disclaimer.
my main character is triple heroic / iconic / epic completionist, I have played said character for most of my DDO career, however it was not until recently - warlock update - that I have started venturing into EE territory, before that time I ran EN or EH because it was easier, faster, and I did not have to tinker with my character or gear to much, or farm for items to get myself up to EE qulaity. So what changed?


In DDO a tremendous power gap exists between newer and casual players and those that have been playing for a long time or concentrate on optimizing their character. This is a statement most realize and one that many will agree with. What I don’t think people understand is just how wide that gap really is.
there are 3 parts to the power gap, and I'll list them in order of significance as a matter of opinion.
1. knowledge
2. skill
3. build > fun builds are fun, but do not work in EE unless you have dedicated roles i.e. healer etc...
**notice how gear did no make my list, i'll get to that later.


In many MMO’s ways exist in game to measure one’s DPS. DDO has no such add on or in game way to achieve this so players have created standards of their own to measure DPS. DPS (damage per second) in DDO is actually a very significant number due to the quests in the game. Yes some have puzzles, yes some have jumping, but the majority of the quests determine completion time and ease by the amount of damage that a party can deal. The more DPS, the easier the quest.
What I think is unrealized is just how much DPS an elite built character does when compared to a casual character. When I refer to an elite character I am not referring to player skill. I literally mean the DPS just based on how the character is built. I experienced this first hand recently. I joined a group running EE Amrath DOJ flagging. I entered the quest late and the other two people, including the party leader, were perched on a ledge and trying to focus fire mobs coming out of a portal. I walked up and cleared all of the mobs in less than 5 seconds. I then continued to the next portal and cleared all of the mobs in 5 seconds again. The two people had been focus firing on a single mob for about a minute before I came in and they had 1 kill. The party leader was in shock and asked what insta-kill I was using to so this. I told him it wasn’t, just DPS. He couldn’t believe it at first. I also was not using a LGS, so that was not an explanation. By the end of the series I averaged 150 kills and the next closest out of a filled group was 20, with the other 4 people in single digits.
To an extent yes I will agree that it is an unfortunate truth that the game is a DPS race, I sincerely wish it werent, and at times finding myself wishing that there were quests that had roughly 10 or fewer enemies in there, and the rest of the dungeon was an exploration / trap / puzzle / riddle fest, but it is what it is. My question in this instance though : what class were you, vs. what class where they? mechanics dont **really** have AOE dps, and artis becomes lackluster - my opinion - in epics, though i've honestly not really tried to play a caster arti in epics so it could just be me. If your speaking from a warlock standpoint, i can hit 1k damage on basic EB blasts farily regularly so this does not really surprise me, also you neglect to mention levels in this.
I could give more statement on this, but sadly there are alot of important details that are not here to make an accurate assumption of what was going on.


Throughout the quest many comments were made by the party members. Some were just amazement “wow I can’t wait till I get there”, others were insulting “he is clearly cheating”, and others were of boredom “we don’t even need to go into the last room, just let Bracc kill the end guy and we can get our loot.” Now all of this can be good for the ego, but is it good for the game?
communication is always great for the game regardless, I often find myself in a group like this, what determines whether the communication is good or bad for the game is how you deal with it, you could just say "nope not cheating" or you could say "not cheating, here is what I did, and why it is working" and give them logical reasons as to why you went that route, for many i talk to - on khyber - alot of it is "i saw this build on the forums" which is another question i would pose in the previous paragraph, where you playing a build you saw on teh forums?


My character is a heroic and epic completionist and 90%+ fully geared. I am not optimized but it is clearly good enough. Most everyone has been in a party with a character like mine or has a character like mine. So in theory you can understand the power level. But I don’t really think you do.
at level 26, the highest level piece of gear i have on my character is level 14, the black dragon scale robe, i have no stat item greater than +6 which is my Thrane's Bracers. Currently playing a rogue mechanice with 2 artificer, so why the bracers? they have 40 healing amp wich stacks with everything else, thats honestly the only reason they are there. after that I have my belt of thoughtful rememberance for +5 con, and a ring of +4 int - OLD random loot gen, so its ONLY a +4 int ring, nothing else. And this gear setup gets me through EE content just fine, with little hassle, to the point where i can solo it. My build isnt anything extravagant, i value the rune arm over the rogue's capstone, I run in shiradi because I cant twist nerve venom, though I prefer shadowdancer and twisting stay frosty over prism stance.


My character’s DPS is 2000 aoe (area of effect). Right now some people are thinking I am lying. Some people think it is impossible, some people think that is kinda low, some people think I need to put in some work to get my character up to snuff before they let me in their LE raids again. On the DDO power scale I am about a 6.
I have no AoE DPS unless its in a line so i guess that makes me a 1 due to situational? However I regularly keep up - or at least in close second - with Aura blasty blasty warlocks.


The problem we currently have with the game is that many other people that think they are a 6, are actually a 2. People do not realize how big the gap is because their DPS is 300, and the think that is pretty good. In their wildest dreams they think they could maybe hit 500. They have no idea how low that is when compared to higher end characters. They may even have a couple heroic and epic past lives and a couple pieces of raid gear and think they are a higher end character.I see this all the time and agree, which then makes the question - do past lives affect power gap that much? answer is yes, but the right ones, otherwise they are just something on your character sheet. Does raid gear help? yes, though not as much as people put stock in, especially with the random loot pass that just happened.


The reason you have constant debate about game difficulty is because these players ranging between 200 and 5000 DPS are all running the same quests, and sometimes together. Turbine has some idea of the gap. That is why different quest difficulties exist. The problem is that everyone wants to be or thinks they are elite. There is a good portion of the player population trying to run EE quests in misery or riding coat tails when they should really be running normal. The problem is even greater due to low server populations. It is not like someone can wait around for a normal difficulty to fill. So you have to solo, and if you can’t, join the elite or hard and pretend you are helping. But pretending to help isn’t fun for players.I had triple everything completionist way before I thought I was ready to run EE content. Even before I had tirple everything completionist I would only run EN or EH because I knew I was not ready for EE, and did not want to go through the headache. This comes back to player skill, part of player skill is knowing your limitations, you get better by pushing them gradually, not by ramming your head against them until you pass out or rage quit.


This large gap is also why we have players getting one shot in LE content. Not because they are low end or shouldn’t be in there, it is because Turbine knows there is a huge gap but they also are not sure how high it goes. They want the mobs to be a threat, but if you don’t know exactly how powerful your top players are, it is hard to guess. I have run LE content. I can tell you the mobs die fast and if they hit you it is either a one or two shot. I don’t think the balance is probably right in either direction. In an ideal model the mobs take some effort to kill and the players can heal through damage if they play together. But that’s not something that will get solved today.I still have not set foot inside, or watched LE raid content so do keep that in mind. However if the above statement is true, then why is this a problem, mobs die fast, but they kill players fast. ok? players have the ability to raise dead, heal, pull one or 2 at a time and handle them, mobs dont have that luxury, and mobs dont have self healing abilities - unless shaman or something else. It boils down to this : D&D is not a game designed for players to win, this is what people expect but its not a reality. If somone is going to try to kill me, im going to try to kill them back to the best of my ability >> i.e. the mob's state of mind. we go through the game trampling over content like its nothing and suddently it starts happning in the very finite end quests of the game that noone is making you run, is why i find these complaints amusing. There is so much other stuff people **COULD** be doing but they dont becuase flower sniffing is frowned upon - whether people will admit it or not - and if a quest is not good for the xp/min, then its not good for the player/experience which is dumb.


I also think it needs to be addressed that the “top end” players are not a small portion of the player base like some would lead you to believe. People like to put “elite players” on a pedestal and act like there are only a handful of people playing at this level and the game should not cater to them. If the few players quit it is no loss. I can tell you that the majority of players I know are close to my power level or above it. I am not even triple completionist and many are. I am a VIP, always have been, and I have purchased multiple Otto’s boxes, Supreme Tomes, XP Pots, Mana Pots, additional Turbine points, etc. I am an ideal customer for Turbine and so are many of the players I run with. We are not a small group.I'll neither agree or deny this statement, as I typically only play on khyber I dont have a broad spectrum of reference. In addition I only pug, i have no standard groups, and I belong to a very small - may as well be solo - guild, so guild runs for me are non existent and i take my chances with the lfm tables, this makes it interesting to me as you never know who it is you'll be running with, what they'll do, or what their builds are going to be like.


I do not have an easy fix to make everyone happy. But I think realizing how different the power levels are can at least give people a better understanding of where an opposing view point is coming from. In the end we all just want to have fun. Different quest difficulty levels are a good way to get there. We just need to help Turbine realize how different a casual difficulty and elite difficulty should be.they know, but its not the question of how do you find a happy middle, or 2 separate happy end points, its a question of how do you keep the community intact by either merging the 2 together, or separating them? This is somehting that either the players council will need to discuss, or as a community we would need to find the answer and emplore turbine to find a work with solution. But to do this we need people to think rationally, not just say "your ideas are stupid elite is for elite, leave it that way nub" or "the content is too easy raise the difficulty"

I long for the days when curse / blindness were permenant and death had an actual REAL effect on your character. back before airship amenities.

and now for some ramblings :
everyone compares new players when talking about this but most commonly when they reference new players they tend to reference EE content immmidiatly afterwords or in the same statement.
new players have to get through heroics before doing EE content, and destinies are a paid for content, so for those that follow this train of thought may want to revisit this logic.

optimal gear is really only useful for a trapper, everyone else can get by just fine on knowledge and enough skil, build helps too, but honestly "optimal build" is only as good as the player is, granted some classes **cough cough** warlock **cough cough** are really easy out of the box things while others need a bit of tweaking, but with enough time and experimentation you can make it work and viable in EE content >> first life bard 100% CC capable in EE ToEE.

fast healing is the most important epic past life you can aquire from a flexibility standpoint, in terms of usability its IMO by far the most overpowered feat in heroics and early epics. >> level 26 Im still on the original stack of 100 heal scrolls, 3 cure critical wands, and 100 cure serious potions that i bought at level 9. at level 20 I would auto heal for ~200ish every minute.



FAVOUR!
SAGAS!
RENOWN!
These things cannot be got by running Normal or even Hard!

I don't mind taking a bit longer to get my Loot, I've never worried too much about XP....It comes as it comes!
BUT there's no way I'm dropping down to Hard in Heroics so long as my Guild still needs Renown and I still need Favour!
There's no way I'm running Epic Saga Quests on anything other than EE - It's just a waste of my time to do so!
Your statement is not only false its neglectful.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Saga
sagas each have their own difficulty, same as quests, renown scales when you earn it same as when you do in quests if that is the end reward you choose. normal saga = 5k renown, hard = 7.5k, elite = 10k, true elite = 15k.
If you are not capable of handling elite in a nominal amount of time either solo or with group, and renown is what your after, then dont run it, run it on hard or normal. In my experience i can - or use to be able to - get through a normal saga roughly 2 - 3 times faster than an elite saga ( of course this does depend on the saga ) so in that time, ive aquired a fair amount of xp, the same renown, and life was far less hassel. hard was not that much worse once I worked my way up to it.
In heroics I agree, the content is much more manageable as the mosnter's HP is not insanely bloated with exception to newer content.

[Sam1313]

OP, you are a good example of why past lives need to be removed for the good of the game. Thank you for your example! As you point out, you were a detrement to the fun of your entire group. From your description people just stopped playing and took on the role of Varsity Cheerleaders to watch you solo the quest and pick up their loot. This is obviously not good for the game. Clearly no one wants to play in this environment except other 1% players. No one wants to play a game where their characters are not relevant.

This aberration of TR power is not a creep - it is a chasm that eventually needs to be bridged.

I continue to urge the creation of a DDO Classic Server where these mini-Thor's are not allowed to dominate game play.

I would not encourage removing past lives. Obtaining past lives is what keeps the majority of the current playerbase playing. When we first started playing this game our goal was to obtain power. We wanted our characters to be powerful and godlike. I really believe everyone wants this but to obtain power we have to do what? 1. Level. 2. Get Geared. 3 Get the experience from a Past Life. I really doubt that any human starts playing any game with the intentions and thoughts of just remaining at the same level or power level. Besides this the game would be over for most people in about 2 months if there was no benefit of achieving a past life. Start at level 1, level to 20 or level to 30 then game over. People would then go play something else. What would happen then is this game would decline to nothingness. There would be no more DDO. Witch brings up another point but that's for another Topic and thread.
But by just looking at your join date I will guess that your still on your first life. Go get a few past life then you will see why everyone keeps True Reincarnating. We all want to be strong, we all want our characters to be supermen/superwomen that's why we play this game. Good luck to you and Happy Hunting.

[Jiirix]

In DDO the "Power-Gap" is less determined by how much you play the game but how much knowledge about the game an it’s mechanics you have. Or how good or bad the advice and builds you get are. You don’t need much gaming skill like perfect timing, fancy scripts on your gaming mouse/keyboard or “l33t” twitching. You also don’t need raid gear or completionist for ANYTHING in this game. A good up to date build, a good up to date gear plan of easy to farm stuff and perhaps 3-6 past-lives is all you need to run endgame. Everything like completionist, epic completionist or a four part legendary green steel bonus is just nice to have.

There are a lot of traps in DDO because this games works different than other MORPGS or Pen&Paper. “I roll a healer because that class is always welcome.” NOPE… “Monk because…. “ NOPE. “Elricht Knight sounds good.” It’s a trap! “Bear Druid Tank!” OK.. Fail-Druids aren’t DDO exclusive… and so on. If you fall for such a trap you are either a veteran that does it on purpose “I totally can make a legendary caster druid” or will most likely become frustrated at some point. It’s less a “power gap” to me but an endless number of possibilities to get a hero that underperforms.
On the other hand this game is so easy it can get boring at any difficulty if you know what the flavor of the month is, what synergies to use, what are the things to concentrate on and what doesn’t matter much even if it sounds ill advised the first time you hear it. (Like ignoring the “main” stat on so many builds, not using 80% of the spells in game, using monks for throwers/archers.)

There are classes/builds you hardly can mess up and won’t see much difference to the Uber completionist in your group. I play 10 characters, I only play one evening a week, maximum two, my coordination skills are legendary awful and only raid for one or two key items per hero. There are a few simple “tricks” that make them work fine in all content. A few examples to close the “power-gap”:
• Warlock.. I don’t play one at the moment but I know it is hard to mess those up.
• DPS Paladin Builds. Full KotC, Defender stance, KtA still stacks, right?
• CC/Vanguard Paladin Builds. That shield stun is easy to get to a useful DC, Dwarf and Warforged give extra racial DC
• Any Mechanic build I know so far. With or without paladin or artificer. Get the core feats, get the mechanic tier 5s and shoot at mobs.
• Thrower builds that rely on a high number of projectiles. Stack up SA damage and other effects per projectile and kill mobs from a distance.
• Arcane Archers, my pure elven ranger AA has one favorite soul past live and not all EDs maxed yet. Doesn’t matter, I can bring him anywhere without being gimped.
• Multiclass Swashbuckler with 3-6 fighter levels for stance and vanguard goddies and two rogue levels for evasion and traps. Just ignore warchanter, spellsinger and most spells. All you need is stunning shield, low blow/slap in the face, maybe SAP and coup de grace. Exploit weakness pushes the DPS and all the rest can go into the defenses and selfhealing.

Barbarian and Tempest DPS builds work good without much gear and pastlives but those classes profit the most from it as far as I can tell. The “Power-Gap” between new/casual playes and vets is more noticeable with these, but that is more or less a “solo vs. group” thing.

[slarden]

I would not encourage removing past lives. Obtaining past lives is what keeps the majority of the current playerbase playing. When we first started playing this game our goal was to obtain power. We wanted our characters to be powerful and godlike. I really believe everyone wants this but to obtain power we have to do what? 1. Level. 2. Get Geared. 3 Get the experience from a Past Life. I really doubt that any human starts playing any game with the intentions and thoughts of just remaining at the same level or power level.

I agree with this assessment, but there is no denying that I notice that extra 36 PRR, 155 hp, 5 dc, 9 spell pen etc. The benefits are substantial and the problem I see is not that people with past lifes have the benefit. The problem is that people without the past lifes have no alternative way to get to the same power level without spending huge amounts of time. I think it's only an issue that needs to be dealt with because the people with the power are complaining the game is too easy.

The way I would solve the problem if I was Turbine is by giving all past lifes a bonus type, e.g., quality bonus. Then gear with a quality bonus would give non-stacking bonuses with past lifes. So the benefit of past lifes becomes that you don't need to slot quality bonsues rather than you get an amazing bonus not available to first-lifers. It still adds power, but with build and gearing choices a relatively new player can make trade-offs to get one or two things close (DC and spell pen for a caster and maybe PRR for a barbarian).

People might still feel their work is diminished and rage if it happened, so Turbine may never even try and address the issue, but at a minimum they should look at addressing it for DC casters where it makes the biggest difference.

I play a warlock with most of the past lifes and one with almost nothing. The way I bridge the gap there is the less accomplished warlock uses EE skyvault shield with feats for more PRR/MRR. I lose a little on offense, but bridge the gap on defense easily.

[Zasral]

I would not encourage removing past lives. Obtaining past lives is what keeps the majority of the current playerbase playing. When we first started playing this game our goal was to obtain power. We wanted our characters to be powerful and godlike. I really believe everyone wants this but to obtain power we have to do what? 1. Level. 2. Get Geared. 3 Get the experience from a Past Life. I really doubt that any human starts playing any game with the intentions and thoughts of just remaining at the same level or power level. Besides this the game would be over for most people in about 2 months if there was no benefit of achieving a past life. Start at level 1, level to 20 or level to 30 then game over. People would then go play something else. What would happen then is this game would decline to nothingness. There would be no more DDO. Witch brings up another point but that's for another Topic and thread.
But by just looking at your join date I will guess that your still on your first life. Go get a few past life then you will see why everyone keeps True Reincarnating. We all want to be strong, we all want our characters to be supermen/superwomen that's why we play this game. Good luck to you and Happy Hunting.

I agree with you. Without past lives there would be no reason for me to keep playing. I do have a guildy however, who has been actively playing for years. He has multiple first life characters. He has never tr'd, etr'd, or even filled a second destiny. I don't know what motivates him to log in. I'm glad he does he is a great guy. Just wanted to say there is one person I know of in game.

[Chai]

On a scale of 1-10 as the OP uses, what is a 2 doing in LE content? That's like a junior varsity middle school football team handing their running back the ball with an NFL defense lined up on the other side of scrimmage. A crushing one shot experience is the expectation in that scenario.

Most of that power gap is made up by choosing the easy button at character creation and gearing accordingly. Some classes can have "A" level DPS while maintaining 200+ PRR while some have a harder time hitting 100 PRR. That scenario can just as easily happen when a vet plays a flavor build while the OP is playing a cookie cutter FOTM.

[Lanadazia]

In many MMO’s ways exist in game to measure one’s DPS. DDO has no such add on or in game way to achieve this so players have created standards of their own to measure DPS. DPS (damage per second) in DDO is actually a very significant number due to the quests in the game. Yes some have puzzles, yes some have jumping, but the majority of the quests determine completion time and ease by the amount of damage that a party can deal. The more DPS, the easier the quest.

i don't think this is what DDO is about, should be and ever will be. and i like it this way. I've played alot of other games, where DPS and damage-tools/add-ons were used all the time. it kills alot of fun
just play the game and don't care too much about DPS. sure, high numbers are awesome and make you feel good, cause you've achieved something, but on the other hand it can be pretty frustrating to newer players if they're measured on DPS, especially if they're ambitious and improving fast, but still are getting rejected due to their newbie-ness. *** ofc they cannot have the knowledge as a veteran.

i've been in a static group for TRing for a long time. that group was focused on high damage, fast completion times and xp/min
for me it almost killed the game, i lost interesst, got upset when playing the game and it felt like a 2nd job, not a game you have fun with.
since i don't care about all of this, i have alot more fun with the game. my new mantra is "digressing and sidequesting". not as effective as the gamestyle before, but it gets pretty close and its alot more fun!





What I think is unrealized is just how much DPS an elite built character does when compared to a casual character. When I refer to an elite character I am not referring to player skill. I literally mean the DPS just based on how the character is built.

i think a better word for skill also would be knowledge. knowledge leads to better build characters. just remember the first character you've rolled in DnD, wasn't that awfully bad? but we've learnt out of the early fails and improved. thats knowledge. no skill without knowledge.
of course a casual or new player will not have the same knowledge as a veteran. (see *** above)




The problem we currently have with the game is that many other people that think they are a 6, are actually a 2. People do not realize how big the gap is because their DPS is 300, and the think that is pretty good. In their wildest dreams they think they could maybe hit 500. They have no idea how low that is when compared to higher end characters. They may even have a couple heroic and epic past lives and a couple pieces of raid gear and think they are a higher end character.


well. i do have a couple heroic+epic pastlifes, still far away from any completionist (mostly stacked caster lifes). also i do have some of the rarest raid gear, what is not achieved without the proper knowledge/skill.
but that line made me think about it. and yeah. i was thinking about my character as a end-game toon. but on the 2nd thought, it may not be one. most people in my guild are optimzing their characters alot and are old DnD powergamers. i noticed i'm not on the same power level, but i'm an asset, not a liability when i run with them. i guess thats what counts, right?
(i wouldn't be able to solo EEs in an acceptable time)


I also think it needs to be addressed that the “top end” players are not a small portion of the player base like some would lead you to believe.

yup thats true. there are alot of ambitious endgame players. actually i don't meet newer players so often

[kned225]

OP,As you point out, you were a detrement to the fun of your entire group. From your description people just stopped playing and took on the role of Varsity Cheerleaders to watch you solo the quest and pick up their loot. This is obviously not good for the game. Clearly no one wants to play in this environment except other 1% players. No one wants to play a game where their characters are not relevant

A widening power gap can only partially be blamed for the misery of these 5 players. The other part of the blame rests with the OP. We've all been in these groups with green players, the difference is most of us handle it with a lot more class

[Basura_Grande]

OP, you are a good example of why past lives need to be removed for the good of the game.

As you get more experienced you'll come to understand that 90% of the power difference between noobs and vets DOES NOT COME FROM past lives.

[Sam1313]

I agree with this assessment, but there is no denying that I notice that extra 36 PRR, 155 hp, 5 dc, 9 spell pen etc. The benefits are substantial and the problem I see is not that people with past lifes have the benefit. The problem is that people without the past lifes have no alternative way to get to the same power level without spending huge amounts of time. I think it's only an issue that needs to be dealt with because the people with the power are complaining the game is too easy.

The way I would solve the problem if I was Turbine is by giving all past lifes a bonus type, e.g., quality bonus. Then gear with a quality bonus would give non-stacking bonuses with past lifes. So the benefit of past lifes becomes that you don't need to slot quality bonsues rather than you get an amazing bonus not available to first-lifers. It still adds power, but with build and gearing choices a relatively new player can make trade-offs to get one or two things close (DC and spell pen for a caster and maybe PRR for a barbarian).

People might still feel their work is diminished and rage if it happened, so Turbine may never even try and address the issue, but at a minimum they should look at addressing it for DC casters where it makes the biggest difference.

I play a warlock with most of the past lifes and one with almost nothing. The way I bridge the gap there is the less accomplished warlock uses EE skyvault shield with feats for more PRR/MRR. I lose a little on offense, but bridge the gap on defense easily.

Yes to the first paragraph. I recently ran with a brand new player to this game. Started at level 1 and by level 7 he was ready to give up. I asked him why do you want to quit? His reply was and I Quote " Well it has taken us 2 days to get me to 7 and that's with running with you (Me) had I of ran alone I would only be about level 3 so from my calculations it would take me somewhere between 6 to 8 months to reach level cap. Honestly I don't want to put that much time and effort into any game". End Quote. This right here made me realize that we truly are living in the digital age of point, click, instant results and no one wants to or has the time to wait. I think this alone is the very reason that this game cannot retain a lot of the people who download it and try to play it. After about level 3 or 4 they realize just how long its going to take them to level/power up and just leave and go play something that they can beat/dominate in a day or a week.

2nd paragraph. I can see something like that being considered, it would take a great deal of collaboration and thought and input and hours of testing but overall a good idea. Sadly though I don't think that most people want to commit the amount of time it takes to reach level 20 so they can TR and get a past life. Hence the reason for the voice of the master. The Xp ship buff. the xp potions in the ddo store and the ottos box and even with all these things it still takes more time than most are ready to commit. Minus the stone of xp of course.

[Sam1313]

I agree with you. Without past lives there would be no reason for me to keep playing. I do have a guildy however, who has been actively playing for years. He has multiple first life characters. He has never tr'd, etr'd, or even filled a second destiny. I don't know what motivates him to log in. I'm glad he does he is a great guy. Just wanted to say there is one person I know of in game.

There is a player that has a cleric that used to be in our guild on cannith that is exactly like this. His main character is a Cleric and has been at level 23 for almost 3 years now. I love running with this guy because he loves the game sooo much. Although seeing rezz me rezz me rezz me or lost lost lost lets regroup in party chat gets me laughing so hard it makes my eyes water.

[Basura_Grande]

The way I would solve the problem if I was Turbine is by giving all past lifes a bonus type, e.g., quality bonus. Then gear with a quality bonus would give non-stacking bonuses with past lifes. So the benefit of past lifes becomes that you don't need to slot quality bonsues rather than you get an amazing bonus not available to first-lifers. It still adds power, but with build and gearing choices a relatively new player can make trade-offs to get one or two things close (DC and spell pen for a caster and maybe PRR for a barbarian).



This is a very good idea.

[KoobTheProud]

We just need to realize that for DDO to get the kind of resources and attention from the devs that we want the first lifers have to be at least as important as people who have been playing for a decade. Prioritizing end game content for triple completionists is the fastest way to get DDO into maintenance mode for good, at which point the decade vets will be the people most damaged because nothing will be worth running to them.

Here are some simple ideas for the community to think about:

Past Life Passive Feats treated like Twists of Fate. You have 3 or 4 of them to slot at character creation and that's it: done. You can pick the 3 or 4 and the completionists will have the advantage of being able to customize their characters to a greater extent than most players. You could even allow a person only to slot as many of a Past Life feat as they had actually completed, so it would take 3 Cleric past lives if you wanted to slot 3 Cleric past life feats. This would work for all past life feats including the racial feats from the Iconics. 3 or 4 as a choice of all the past life feats accumulated.

Gear degradation: Any type of TR except an ER degrades all the gear by a level, including crafted gear as it enters the TR cache. You could degrade item levels or you could significantly degrade item condition but something would make it less valuable each life and ideally not usable by the third life after you acquired it. This would prevent perfect gear sets from being accumulated over time and it would give players incentive to re-grind their loot and re-craft their items after a couple of lives had passed. You could leave Heroic Greensteel alone and everything below the equivalent item level and just have the higher level (the items that break end game when perfectly assembled) degrade. They could build this into all higher level crafted and named items and also into the random loot gen system starting at level 15.

There are other things that could be done but those represent the primary systemic boosts that make veteran characters much more powerful than newcomers.

Ok, so alongside that stick you need some real carrots to keep people playing DDO after they've been there and done it all.

Random Epic and Legendary Dungeons to allow players who have played every quest in the game hundreds of times to have a new and fun experience playing their less powerful characters. You'd want to build a dozen templates to start and then have them randomly populate with variable paths and endpoints. Every update you'd want to add a couple of new templates. You'd want the templates to be somewhat level agnostic, with different templates for different level ranges. This is just for Epic and Legendary levels. You don't need to touch the 1-20 game much other than a long-needed Korthos revamp with a real tutorial to keep low-level newcomers from abandoning the game in confusion after trying it out.

PvP Arenas, real arenas and a ruleset that allows all past life feats to function in those areas. This would allow the people who really want to grind 90 lives out to get the benefit of those 90 lives in a way that does not impact newcomers at all. If you're a dedicated PvP player and a newcomer you're also a three day player of DDO and then on to another game that supports PvP better, that's just reality talking.

If you can manage the simultaneous feats of keeping new players via Korthos revamp, keeping vets via fresh content that is playable by most vets and satisfying the power hungry by PvP you probably can maintain a growing player base in DDO for the forseeable future.

[FranOhmsford]

Yes to the first paragraph. I recently ran with a brand new player to this game. Started at level 1 and by level 7 he was ready to give up. I asked him why do you want to quit? His reply was and I Quote " Well it has taken us 2 days to get me to 7 and that's with running with you (Me) had I of ran alone I would only be about level 3 so from my calculations it would take me somewhere between 6 to 8 months to reach level cap. Honestly I don't want to put that much time and effort into any game". End Quote. This right here made me realize that we truly are living in the digital age of point, click, instant results and no one wants to or has the time to wait. I think this alone is the very reason that this game cannot retain a lot of the people who download it and try to play it. After about level 3 or 4 they realize just how long its going to take them to level/power up and just leave and go play something that they can beat/dominate in a day or a week.

Since when is 6-8 months of daily playing a fair requirement just to get to Cap for the very first time?

I could understand {maybe} if that guy played a couple hours once a week but that's not the feeling I get from your post.

DDO is a game where getting to Cap just the once is highly discouraged as well {yes some people do play like that but most of them will eventually realise they need to move on.}.
6-8 months for first life - Let's halve that for every past life you add on and only go to single completionist +3x the two classes that complement your build the most = 51 months or over 4 Years of daily play ON ONE SINGLE TOON!

Now can and have players done it much much faster - Yes! But the numbers of players who've leveled to completionist in less than 2 years AND are still playing as opposed to the number of players who gave up or got bored of the constant Grind is TINY!

I've seen new players race through their first life {pre MotU} in a week, TR and quit the game before getting half way back to cap because they realize the amount of time even a week per TR is going to take! {Remember that going through your first life that fast you learn very little about the game or the quests and you don't gain the top Loot! Your second Life also requires a lot more XP than your first!}.

Now you may be thinking "14 weeks for a Completionist and that's not good enough for you - The very definition of someone who wants it all now" BUT we're not talking about 14 weeks for a Completionist!
That first Life was done super fast - 1 week
The second Life WILL take Longer - Lets' say 2 weeks.
By the 3rd Life the Player cannot keep up the incredible Grind he's putting himself through - He wants to have fun playing the game but he's not because he's made it WORK!
He'll never make Completionist going that Fast - He'll Quit!
And he knows this by Lvl 6 on his second life - He knows he won't be able to maintain a TR a week {or even close!} for 14-18 Lives!
So he thinks "Why not quit now"!


Can anyone here say they got their first Completionist Character within 2 Years of installing DDO for the first time?
Those that made it in less than 3 years - Do you not remember the sheer grind of going through all those Lives you didn't really want to play? The mountain of gear you had to Grind to make certain lives go by faster?


Now of course an MMO needs longevity and letting people get everything they need in 6 months would be equally as dumb as the situation we have now {3 extra classes added, 4 Iconics added with their own Past Lives to get, Epic Past Lives added and the XP required going up by a massive amount!}.
Talking about that XP requirement - It's not bad for the guy who was already a completionist or well on his way to being one when MotU came out or even when Cap was 25.
But for the guy starting now or the Casual player who only had a couple of past lives when cap went up to 28 it's an absolute NIGHTMARE!


That 2-3 years for Heroic Completionist can be DOUBLED if you want Epic Completionist too! {Forget Triple Comp!}.
How many people are willing to devote 5 years of Grind {Work} to a GAME!
99% of Athletes/Sportsmen are retired by 40 and they earn millions from doing what they Love!

When does the game become work?

When does the work become a game again?

We're not talking about a hand it to me on a silver platter generation here - We're talking about basic Human Nature!
Please stop characterizing Players as something they're not!

DDO has gone way beyond fair requirements and into the levels of insanity we see today with 8.25 million XP required to get from Lvl 20-30 and then having to do that 36 TIMES!
Not only that but they keep acceding to the demands of the players who've already completed the Grind for more Challenge while making it harder and harder for those who haven't to catch up!
There's a Glass Ceiling in DDO and it's RISING!

[kmoustakas]

+1 I agree with Brac

And personally I am a 2 even though I am an epic completionist and have been playing for the better part of 4 years

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This is why I do not think they should lower monster HP.

If they did they wouldn't last any significant time at all.

[Sam1313]

Since when is 6-8 months of daily playing a fair requirement just to get to Cap for the very first time?

I could understand {maybe} if that guy played a couple hours once a week but that's not the feeling I get from your post.

DDO is a game where getting to Cap just the once is highly discouraged as well {yes some people do play like that but most of them will eventually realise they need to move on.}.
6-8 months for first life - Let's halve that for every past life you add on and only go to single completionist +3x the two classes that complement your build the most = 51 months or over 4 Years of daily play ON ONE SINGLE TOON!

Now can and have players done it much much faster - Yes! But the numbers of players who've leveled to completionist in less than 2 years AND are still playing as opposed to the number of players who gave up or got bored of the constant Grind is TINY!

I've seen new players race through their first life {pre MotU} in a week, TR and quit the game before getting half way back to cap because they realize the amount of time even a week per TR is going to take! {Remember that going through your first life that fast you learn very little about the game or the quests and you don't gain the top Loot! Your second Life also requires a lot more XP than your first!}.

Now you may be thinking "14 weeks for a Completionist and that's not good enough for you - The very definition of someone who wants it all now" BUT we're not talking about 14 weeks for a Completionist!
That first Life was done super fast - 1 week
The second Life WILL take Longer - Lets' say 2 weeks.
By the 3rd Life the Player cannot keep up the incredible Grind he's putting himself through - He wants to have fun playing the game but he's not because he's made it WORK!
He'll never make Completionist going that Fast - He'll Quit!
And he knows this by Lvl 6 on his second life - He knows he won't be able to maintain a TR a week {or even close!} for 14-18 Lives!
So he thinks "Why not quit now"!


Can anyone here say they got their first Completionist Character within 2 Years of installing DDO for the first time?
Those that made it in less than 3 years - Do you not remember the sheer grind of going through all those Lives you didn't really want to play? The mountain of gear you had to Grind to make certain lives go by faster?


Now of course an MMO needs longevity and letting people get everything they need in 6 months would be equally as dumb as the situation we have now {3 extra classes added, 4 Iconics added with their own Past Lives to get, Epic Past Lives added and the XP required going up by a massive amount!}.
Talking about that XP requirement - It's not bad for the guy who was already a completionist or well on his way to being one when MotU came out or even when Cap was 25.
But for the guy starting now or the Casual player who only had a couple of past lives when cap went up to 28 it's an absolute NIGHTMARE!


That 2-3 years for Heroic Completionist can be DOUBLED if you want Epic Completionist too! {Forget Triple Comp!}.
How many people are willing to devote 5 years of Grind {Work} to a GAME!
99% of Athletes/Sportsmen are retired by 40 and they earn millions from doing what they Love!

When does the game become work?

When does the work become a game again?

We're not talking about a hand it to me on a silver platter generation here - We're talking about basic Human Nature!
Please stop characterizing Players as something they're not!

DDO has gone way beyond fair requirements and into the levels of insanity we see today with 8.25 million XP required to get from Lvl 20-30 and then having to do that 36 TIMES!
Not only that but they keep acceding to the demands of the players who've already completed the Grind for more Challenge while making it harder and harder for those who haven't to catch up!
There's a Glass Ceiling in DDO and it's RISING!

Not really sure how to take in all this? Negative or Positive? I will have to re-reread it after work. Either way I was just quoting one specific player that I had recently ran with and was trying to help him level. This player I quoted can really only play 2 to maybe 3 hours a week. Is most of the players like him? No of course not. I was not trying to characterize the entire player population but only a handful that I have personally ran with/recruited over the past 6 months. I do not word things/sentences well I am sorry.

As for myself:
I am still trying to obtain completionist just on one character and that's even after playing for nearly 4 years and anywhere between 4 to 6 hours a day almost everyday.
Samyel has 5 heroic past lives and No Epic past lives.
Isamuel has 3 heroic past lives and no Epic past lives.
Samjr has 5 heroic past lives and no Epic past lives.
I spend a lot of time crafting. Helping out others in the guild level their characters. And I spend some time on Wayfinder. But I don't use any Xp potions or Otto's boxes either. I'm sure by now I could have had X3 completionist on 1 character if I ignored everyone within the guild and just concentrated on only myself but I'm not like that. Someone says in guild chat I'm running this or that and I reply hey want some company? The people in guild is so spaced apart that there is only really 3 of us that has characters within questing range of each others main character. I can log into my level 29 ranger with the intentions of getting to 30 but then a guild member who is level 7 or 13 will log in and I will log into a alternate that is within their range and run with them. I'm just here to have fun and one of my characters will eventually reach completionist.


Edited because I should note that I am what most would call a "Flower Sniffer" I try to complete all the optionals in a quest, even ransack. And because I craft I will go out of the way to obtain collectables.

[nokowi]

The common player issues are

1. Inability to realize there are others experiencing something different than you
2. Inability to realize that the game should be designed to accommodate a big range of player preferences. (The game should not be designed solely around your preferences).
3. A sense of entitlement to get everything in the game (in a game solely based on your preferences)

DPS is just one component of the experience. Class/Destiny choice, build knowledge, gear, past lives, quest knowledge, and player skill all contribute to these differences.


To create a game that works for everyone, its up to devs to ignore the "I want everything" crowd.

To keep a game that works for everyone, its up to players to help the "I want to improve" crowd.


If DDO had a large population, players could be gated into similar preferences. (Your 2000 DPS AoE should probably not be questing with 100 DPS players). Without increasing the player base, its really up to players to decide who they want to run with.

[Lufia]

The gap is getting way out of hand for me personally, Warlock and Ranged Fury of the wild builds have broken this game's difficulty. I was using a first life warlock and first life fury of the wild ranged builds and it crushed EVERYTHING Solo Elite to 30 with moderate gear.

I'm and alt-a-holic and I have tried tons of builds, right now I feel there is no reason for me to play anything else because I feel inferior, gimp, and not being able to contribute as well as others in a party playing something other than meta (warlock, ranged fury).

Melee is somewhat dead (unless you're a fully geared 90/90 lifer), the one shot mechanic in the new raids clearly curved everything to ranged dps and casting.

You don't even need crowd control spec'd characters anymore, just slap a sleet storm/Solid fog and rofl through.

I'd like to be a subscriber again, but the direction of balance is horrible and recycled buggy content is keeping me from dumping 1k+ a year since the launch.

[Bizbag]

I wanted to weigh in on this thread because it's a topic I've been thinking about a lot lately. I think I'm a fairly rare category of player, so I think my opinion is a little different from others posting here. I know I'm not exactly "known" on the forums or in-game or anything, so I don't know how much people care about my opinion, but hopefully it'll provide a new perspective.

I'm a pretty good DDO player, if I say so myself. A pretty darned good one. I am good at figuring out where to stand to hit things with glancing blows. I know what weapons to equip for certain monsters. I am pretty good at figuring out which enhancements in a given tree are good and which are not.

A lot of that comes from experience - I started playing when the game was almost new. Not quite launch, but I hit the level cap of 10 shortly before it was raised to 12. In those days good gameplay, strategy and tactics were mandatory, often due to lack of gear or sheer difficulty. Von3 required a wizard or sorcerer because most people didn't have Chaos weapons with which to damage the Marut, for example. I learned a lot of twitch skills then.

I left during Meridia, when the cap was 16, and came back intermittently over the years, but as of now, my main character is only on its 4th life. When I came back a few months ago, I was nearly overwhelmed at the power gap - and I had some decent gear on my character. Not top-tier, but okay.

Here's the thing, though - I expected a power gap. I've played plenty of MMOs, and you always have to gear up a character if you come back after a period of time. But the difference here was that my characters' builds were broken - and fixing them required, essentially, TR'ing them to a better class.

Which brings me to my main point - there are a LOT of trap options in DDO. Some of those traps are *entire classes*, and to a lesser extent *whole enhancement trees*. Playing a Fighter20? Trap; only Vanguard is any good, but Paladin is almost universally better at it. Monk20? Trap. Non-Mechanic rogue? Trap. And even if you manage to pick the right class with a viable option, you may not have alloted your stats correctly.

DDO is not the only game to have traps, but effective and up-to-date guides are also few and far between thanks to the game's relatively small population. Someone like me, who had six years of changes updates to catch up on, has relatively little information to go on, unless pieced together from various sources and what people discuss on the forums.

I think, in general, the devs have the right idea in mind going forward. The classes and trees that have received modernizing "enhancement passes" [which, by the way, I don't have a comprehensive list of; I've heard that it's essentially Paladins, Mechanics, and by default, Warlocks?] are considered to be excellent or at least viable, while others like Kensai are languishing. But still, the newer trees are useful, fun, and viable, and the new loot system is helping me bridge the gaps in my equipment.

What would also help immensely is a giant overhaul of leveling gear. And by that, I mean all gear from ML1 to, say, ML25. Much of it is hidden behind meaningless barriers - Epic Crafting for level 20 gear was excruciating when it was new, but is completely irrelevant now. Why spend so much time acquiring a low-level piece of gear and then the items to upgrade it, when all that you receive is a level 20 piece of loot that is less powerful than items you can get from Epic quests? There are far too many different types of crafting in DDO, each requiring their own collection quests - Cannith, Epic , Shroud (now with Legendary as well), Unlocking/Upgrading [e.g. Sentinels gear], Dragontouched, Thunder-forged... and fewer and fewer of them are relevant. While the barrier to the gear helped extend the lifespan of content when it was endgame, it doesn't serve any purpose now.

But in general, I think most players can get their hands on the right sorts of weapons for a quest, get some decent gear, and play well, even in EE. There will always be a power gap - some people are just not very good even if they were handed a "perfect" character - but the best way to close that gap would be to increase the viability of gimp builds - continue "enhancement passes" so that any given class always has the option to respec his enhancements and be viable enough until they can at least TR into a more refined build.

[Grailhawk]

Haven't fully followed every post in this thread so if this has been said excuse me but IMO the biggest issue in this game related to power gap is that the difficulty settings area joke.

If 100 DPS toons had little to no chance of making it out of Normal difficulty alive and and absolutely no chance of getting out of Hard or Elite this kind of thing would be much less noticeable and would self govern.

Unfortunately any difficulty lower then Elite is a joke for 95% of the population and Elite is to easy for too many people.

[Brac]

A widening power gap can only partially be blamed for the misery of these 5 players. The other part of the blame rests with the OP. We've all been in these groups with green players, the difference is most of us handle it with a lot more class

I don't have class? How comical. When I join a pug I go at the speed of the leader. If the leader is zerging, so will I. If he is taking it slow and doing the optionals, I will stay with the group. If I want to zerg no matter what, I will start my own group. I do it often.

Is your expectation that I should not have killed the mobs? I should remove my gear? I should leave everything with a sliver of health so the kill count appears even? This was an EE quest in newer Amrath content and the players were all 28-30. I wasn't running with a group of brand new players in the harbor.

And if you reference my post it was not ruined for the entire party. I did discuss my build and answer questions when they were asked in group, we did all three DOJ flagging quests. If the two quest starters were miserable they could have reformed without me. They were the ones that actually had the most questions about why my character seemed so much more powerful then theirs. I didn't have an epiphany about the power gap and make my post. I have known about the situation for a long time, it is not a new thing. Wen I pug I will carry the entire group through a quest if need be and I will rez everyone at the soonest opportunity, do the optionals, and make sure no one is left behind.

My post is only intended to shed light on the current state of the game. My recent grouping example is the most extreme power gap difference I have recently seen first hand. In the example used I was a god compared to some of the party, but in general my character just does his role as expected. On my server I raid often and play the same character most of the time. I am a decent player with a decent character. When I join a group no one is thinking, Bracc is here to destroy the quest. We can just pike. We only say that when Silent joins ;).

[Elfishski]

In DDO a tremendous power gap exists between newer and casual players and those that have been playing for a long time or concentrate on optimizing their character. This is a statement most realize and one that many will agree with. What I don’t think people understand is just how wide that gap really is.


Great post, and something I also see regularly. And I think it's much worse than before the "balance passes" started.
I have a first life character with a horrible build who just made it to epics and struggles with the DPS and self-healing on EH
I have a multi-life epic completionist character who can do anything on EE and (pre-U29) could slightly more than hold up a half of duo'ing Fire on Thunder Peaks EE, and often takes the vast majority of the kills even with other very good players.
I also run with players who use builds (*cough* warlocks *cough*) where on that epic completionist character I just don't bother to do anything because they have 10x the DPS, whatever quests it can possibly be useful for?

I think a big part of this is devs seeing and understanding that the power gap is huge - the problem is that they keep trying their best to address it by giving more power to the new players in the hope of bringing the characters rating '1' on the DPS scale up a bit. What actually happens is that the e.g. melee power doesn't make much difference to the player who has a '1' at the moment, but it makes a huge difference to the veteran who can exploit it to the max. The extra critical threat doesn't mean that much to the low base damage player, but the veteran exploits it well, because why wouldn't you if you understand the system and enjoy tinkering with your character to make it better?

What has happened then, within the last year or two, is for veterans a sequence of exponential multipliers to character power and DPS output while filling any defensive or self-healing gaps. For new players, power has also increased to the extent that heroic content isn't much challenge if they have some sort of sensible advice on feats and enhancements, but relatively speaking they're way further back from the veterans than they used to be.

The newest content then*, is behind an insurmountable mountain for new players, but still fairly trivial for veterans. That's not really ideal for anyone...


*I haven't done the legendary raids yet, but based on all the feedback I've read.

[Marshal_Lannes]

In summary to all the posts 'blah blah blah get PLs you aren't as good a player etc'. First, I am an excellent player. I have said many times, you learn all you need to know about this game in 2 months. This game is not a hard CPU game. Go play something like Eve. That is hard. This is easy. There is almost no player skill involved that any experienced gamer does not have. I challenge any of you mini-Thors to start a perma death group with me first life characters no twink gear and we'll see who lives longest. NO? Don't want to do that right? Because it is not about ANYTHING you claim. You are not uber. You have simply been playing for years and have accumulated past lives. Let's once again knock down these straw man arguments that are always used...

1. Veterans have unique builds! Wrong. They have copied the FotM builds from the forums. Everyone uses the same set of builds. OK, maybe a brand new player might get trapped into a premade junk build that Turbine offers you, but anyone who goes to the forums uses the same set of builds. You have not invented anything great build wise. Another part of this is that virtually EVERY build does the exact same thing, they just differ in how they do it. They are all high DPS, self healing , high defense builds. They are all the same cookie cutter sorry to burst your ego bubble.

2. Past lives don't matter! Wrong. Aprox...30% damage reduction, 25% elemental resistance, +80 HPs, +70 AC, +12 DMG to every hit, huge boosts to DCs and SP etc etc. You don't think all this adding up is huge? Of course it is. If it isn't then again, come play perma death with me as a first life character.

3. I am so skilled I dominate groups! Wrong. You have 5 years of accumulated gear. All those 1% players have epic rings of spell storing. How did they get those? Hmmm.... Loads of duped items, loads of legit items, yes, your forum copied build plays better than someone using loot gen stuff. Yet you still whine and complain and want loot gen nerfed!

4. You are not really interested in balancing this game. You are not interested in competitive game play. You want to be mini-Thors. At least some of you have admitted it here. Others cling to the argument, oh just challenge my mini-Thor! I and ever DM who has ever run a D&D campaign will tell you there is NO way to sustain a monty haul campaign. If you want to play a min-Thor there are games for this - League of Legends might be more you style. D&D has always been a group game. In the OP example there is one player showing off and 5 people having a miserable time then the OP comes on here and brags about how great he is, which of course he isn't, he has just collected more stuff.

D&D characters were never meant to have this much power. Since this 1% have no interest in actually playing a group game please consider (talking to the Devs here) making a DDO Classic Server where these power abuses do not occur, where you have no past lives and get one ED with no twists. Let's see then who plays this game. The clamoring mini-Thors who want moar power to benefit only themselves or those interesting in a dynamic grouping experience where you need to work together to succeed.

This game has been hijacked by the players who post YouTube completions videos which scream look at me! look at me! I am awesomesauce validate my ego pleeeeeeease!!!! However the vast majority of players I have ever met in game are not like the OP, they are people who have had the most fun when completing a tough quest that has pushed our group to the max. DDO needs to start addressing this group of players and let the mini-Thors go. They are going to quit anyway because there is nothing you can do to challenge them in a monty haul campaign.

[Hafeal]

In DDO a tremendous power gap exists between newer and casual players and those that have been playing for a long time or concentrate on optimizing their character. This is a statement most realize and one that many will agree with. What I don’t think people understand is just how wide that gap really is.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree.




I told him it wasn’t, just DPS. He couldn’t believe it at first. I also was not using a LGS, so that was not an explanation. By the end of the series I averaged 150 kills and the next closest out of a filled group was 20, with the other 4 people in single digits.

My character is a heroic and epic completionist and 90%+ fully geared. I am not optimized but it is clearly good enough. Most everyone has been in a party with a character like mine or has a character like mine. So in theory you can understand the power level. But I don’t really think you do.

My character’s DPS is 2000 aoe (area of effect). Right now some people are thinking I am lying. Some people think it is impossible, some people think that is kinda low, some people think I need to put in some work to get my character up to snuff before they let me in their LE raids again. On the DDO power scale I am about a 6.

I have a handful of friends and guildmates I like to run with on Khyber. This past week, for example, I ran the Devil's Gambit in a PUG group. We struggled and we had a number of deaths. Same in mine static group not too long ago. Then, with my guildmate, just the 2 of us, well, him, we soloed those same quests on EE like it was Korthos. My joke with him is seeing if I can get a kill - by accident.

This same player critted the dragon in the Eveningstar challenge one time and 1 shotted him. Seriously. Yes, we were running at max, which I forget what that is. A different guildimate runs and re-runs EE ToEE, on a thrower build; fortunately I can run with him sometimes to help loot chests to help him grind for rare mushrooms. His dps is almost unbelievable. Oh, he did die 1 last run to Ziggy, I lol'd and have the screenshot to prove it.

In fact, I started a thread on our guild forums with Soul Stone pics of my guildmates because they are rare for some - and downright funny for the rest of us. Party wipes are the best.

So, thanks for reading my ramble, but, yes, the gap is HUGE.



I also think it needs to be addressed that the “top end” players are not a small portion of the player base like some would lead you to believe .. .I can tell you that the majority of players I know are close to my power level or above it.

Hmmm ... I would not go that far. I do not know what the number "is" but those who can solo EE, are few and far between in my experience. :)

[Duetotheseverity]

The gap is getting way out of hand for me personally, Warlock and Ranged Fury of the wild builds have broken this game's difficulty. I was using a first life warlock and first life fury of the wild ranged builds and it crushed EVERYTHING Solo Elite to 30 with moderate gear.

I'm and alt-a-holic and I have tried tons of builds, right now I feel there is no reason for me to play anything else because I feel inferior, gimp, and not being able to contribute as well as others in a party playing something other than meta (warlock, ranged fury).

Melee is somewhat dead (unless you're a fully geared 90/90 lifer), the one shot mechanic in the new raids clearly curved everything to ranged dps and casting.

You don't even need crowd control spec'd characters anymore, just slap a sleet storm/Solid fog and rofl through.

I'd like to be a subscriber again, but the direction of balance is horrible and recycled buggy content is keeping me from dumping 1k+ a year since the launch.
This.

Melees are dead and so is the game. great job Turbine.

[DANTEIL]

In DDO a tremendous power gap exists between newer and casual players and those that have been playing for a long time or concentrate on optimizing their character. This is a statement most realize and one that many will agree with. What I don’t think people understand is just how wide that gap really is.


As a player on the 'wrong' side of this gap, I think this is absolutely true. Furthermore, this lack of perspective works both ways -- just as less-powerful players & characters often don't realize how far down the scale they are compared to power players, power players often don't realize how different their play experiences are compared to other, less-powerful players & characters. I would hope that Turbine, from their 'omniscient' developer perspective, plus player feedback and in game metrics, understands both sides of this. Unfortunately, I'm not sure they are in a position to do anything about it any time soon.

[Algreg]

In summary to all the posts 'blah blah blah get PLs you aren't as good a player etc'. First, I am an excellent player. I have said many times, you learn all you need to know about this game in 2 months. This game is not a hard CPU game. Go play something like Eve. That is hard. This is easy. There is almost no player skill involved that any experienced gamer does not have. I challenge any of you mini-Thors to start a perma death group with me first life characters no twink gear and we'll see who lives longest. NO? Don't want to do that right? Because it is not about ANYTHING you claim. You are not uber. You have simply been playing for years and have accumulated past lives. Let's once again knock down these straw man arguments that are always used...

1. Veterans have unique builds! Wrong. They have copied the FotM builds from the forums. Everyone uses the same set of builds. OK, maybe a brand new player might get trapped into a premade junk build that Turbine offers you, but anyone who goes to the forums uses the same set of builds. You have not invented anything great build wise. Another part of this is that virtually EVERY build does the exact same thing, they just differ in how they do it. They are all high DPS, self healing , high defense builds. They are all the same cookie cutter sorry to burst your ego bubble.

2. Past lives don't matter! Wrong. Aprox...30% damage reduction, 25% elemental resistance, +80 HPs, +70 AC, +12 DMG to every hit, huge boosts to DCs and SP etc etc. You don't think all this adding up is huge? Of course it is. If it isn't then again, come play perma death with me as a first life character.

3. I am so skilled I dominate groups! Wrong. You have 5 years of accumulated gear. All those 1% players have epic rings of spell storing. How did they get those? Hmmm.... Loads of duped items, loads of legit items, yes, your forum copied build plays better than someone using loot gen stuff. Yet you still whine and complain and want loot gen nerfed!

4. You are not really interested in balancing this game. You are not interested in competitive game play. You want to be mini-Thors. At least some of you have admitted it here. Others cling to the argument, oh just challenge my mini-Thor! I and ever DM who has ever run a D&D campaign will tell you there is NO way to sustain a monty haul campaign. If you want to play a min-Thor there are games for this - League of Legends might be more you style. D&D has always been a group game. In the OP example there is one player showing off and 5 people having a miserable time then the OP comes on here and brags about how great he is, which of course he isn't, he has just collected more stuff.

D&D characters were never meant to have this much power. Since this 1% have no interest in actually playing a group game please consider (talking to the Devs here) making a DDO Classic Server where these power abuses do not occur, where you have no past lives and get one ED with no twists. Let's see then who plays this game. The clamoring mini-Thors who want moar power to benefit only themselves or those interesting in a dynamic grouping experience where you need to work together to succeed.

This game has been hijacked by the players who post YouTube completions videos which scream look at me! look at me! I am awesomesauce validate my ego pleeeeeeease!!!! However the vast majority of players I have ever met in game are not like the OP, they are people who have had the most fun when completing a tough quest that has pushed our group to the max. DDO needs to start addressing this group of players and let the mini-Thors go. They are going to quit anyway because there is nothing you can do to challenge them in a monty haul campaign.

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. With a pinch of hipocrisy. Strangely, you have no problem with the "monty hauling" of loot tables. I wonder what the difference is. Riiiight, you already have acquired new loot and now it is your power. So it is a my power vs. other people´s power scenario.

[MaeveTuohy]

The common player issues are

1. Inability to realize there are others experiencing something different than you.

This perspective is evident in post #40 of this thread. If it were true that 95% overwhelm the content then the playing population is very much larger than we think because I regularly pug and there are many, many players who cannot do this, not even close. However, if you are an upper-tier player with the right mix of experience, build and gear, and run with friends\guildies who are similar, you might think this was true for virtually everyone; it just isn't.

[Basura_Grande]

Why not start with pre-pathed characters that aren't complete garbage?

Build is at least 50% of it all, start players on a good path at least.

I liked that idea of adding some bonuses to gear that don't stack with PLs so their affects are watered down a little.

[LightBear]

The whole game/play model of DDO is based upon becoming better.
Somewhat of a gap needs to be there really or new players would have little to no sense of progress.
And every now and then the devs fix somewhat of the gap by upping the random found loot while at the same time upping the rare named items.
So gear is off the table, what remains is past lives.
The fix for that is either play or pay and stones have been around for a long time.

The only real dps exists between classes and builds, update 29 fixed a lot with the changes to old feats and at the same time bringing new feats.

And as far as DPS goes, there is a difference between sustainable damage and burst damage.
With the new feats my sorc can cycle through her SLA's and be a 6 or go can go all out and be a 12 for half a minute or so.
(Before update 29 she was no where near those numbers while being a fire sorc with the red dragon helmet, epic red dragon armor, a full destiny etc etc etc.)

[Suggestion]

DPS Chart

1=100
2=300
3=500
4=750
5=1000
6=2000
7=3000
8=4000
9=5000
10= over 5K




I have a few questions about the table.

First I assume it is for level 30, no way on heroic levels should someone be able to gt 5K per hit consistently (maybe on crits at level 180.)

Second since you said AoE, is this per target on each target in the area? Or is this on a single target (in which case AoE doesn't make sense).
Or is this the total damage (assuming say 10 targets in the area)?

[MeliCat]

fixed. :)

:) Yeah I thought that too.


Very good post.



What you are describing - building a character that works well - is actually one of DDOs core strengths.
Sure, you are free to go and build whatever kind of flavor toon you want, no ones going to stop you...

But I think it would be helpful to newer players, that are just looking for something to start with, that is not utterly gimped, to give them a hand on how to build something useful.

So, a start would be useful standard paths.
Especially the revamped classes all have some rather easily built pure builds now, which also work great on the highest difficulties.

Oh def working on the fixed path pure builds for new players - they need a rework. They were certainly my go to when I started. Some of us are just not here for the building aspect even though you have to grapple with it to play - to remove that aspect when you first start so you can focus on learning/enjoying the rest of the game first is super helpful.

More hints from time to time about what DR is needed in certain dungeons. Church and the cult - how many times have you wandered in there and though 'oops forgot silver'. Spoke to one player yesterday who commented that for a long time he thought that the way to do that dungeon was to drag the boss to fire (I didn't know it could go that far). Deleras also.

Thoroughly approve of the current random loot pass. That goes a long way to helping new players with decent weapons and armor to do what they need to do in a fun way to experiment.

In playing other games too recently, I must say how lovely it is to have a clear and flexible grouping panel - it's one of DDOs greatest strengths. I really hope the community continues to be friendly to new people there

To anyone who says past lives are a must I call BS in a lot of cases. I have run with a number of end game players who do very well with select first life characters. Or at most 1 TR. It's still massively a case of game knowledge though as Bracc says - they know what to gear with and how to play best. But not necessarily needing multiple PL.

Also I call BS only anyone saying you *must* do EE. Screw that. Why? Is it a threat to your manhood to do EH? It's perfectly ok to do EH. If you genuinely want to be able to do EE with ease then you need to put the effort in to do EE with ease. That's life. Calling for DDO to be dumbed down just because you do not have the skills to play at EE is ridiculous. When I was a child I thought I was pretty hot being able to code programs at high school, now I am an adult and know people who have done PhDs to work at cutting edge companies coding amazing things - but they've put in the effort and have the skills to do so (and I can scratch together basic scripts where I need to :D ). That's what the challenge of adult life is. Not to make life smaller to fit what you can do, but to take on the challenge to stretch yourself and have the satisfaction when you can do it. Make DDO harder please. I do not want it so small that it can be beaten easily - even if I am not one of the ones who will beat it at all.

[Vellrad]

I have a few questions about the table.I will tell you how I understand it.


First I assume it is for level 30, no way on heroic levels should someone be able to gt 5K per hit consistently (maybe on crits at level 180.)
Yes, I think its quite obvious.

Second since you said AoE, is this per target on each target in the area? Or is this on a single target (in which case AoE doesn't make sense).
Or is this the total damage (assuming say 10 targets in the area)?

DPS stands for 'damage per second'.

Its usually calculated by sum of all damage your character did during a combat, divided by duration of said encounter.
Meaning, if you shoot a fireball dealing 300 damage to 6 monsters and acid blast dealing 400 damage to 3 monsters, and it takes you 2 seconds, it means your DPS during this fight was 1500.

Now, in DDO there's no addons or plugins to calculate your DPS, so all the numbers players give are estimated.
Then, there are also people who count DPS not by combat duration, but by quest duration, so movement speed adds to DPS for them...

[Basura_Grande]

Also I call BS only anyone saying you *must* do EE. Screw that. Why? Is it a threat to your manhood to do EH?

Yes :)

[Brac]

I have a few questions about the table.

First I assume it is for level 30, no way on heroic levels should someone be able to gt 5K per hit consistently (maybe on crits at level 180.)

Second since you said AoE, is this per target on each target in the area? Or is this on a single target (in which case AoE doesn't make sense).
Or is this the total damage (assuming say 10 targets in the area)?

Yes it is for level 30 characters.

2000 AOE means I am hitting every mob in my area of effect for 2000 damage each.

DPS is sustainable average damage. So if someone has a burst that does 15k every 10 seconds and an SLA that does 300 every 2 seconds their DPS would be 1,650. Use the 10 second cool down of the burst as the time measurement. 15k + 1500 (the five times the SLA would fire) = 16,500. Divide this by the time increment, 16,500 / 10 = 1,650.

In game the most common test is the Bruntsmash test. Time increment is determined by how fast you can deal about 115,000 damage then averaged to determine DPS. People can build for this but they only do so for bragging rights. Most players who really want to know will do the test using the destiny, attacks, enhancements, etc. that they use with normal questing.

[KoobTheProud]

The key thing to remember about the power gap is that if the higher levels of power ever become practically speaking unobtainable for new players joining that DDO will be in maintenance mode shortly thereafter. Most of the costs in DDO are sunk at this point and there will come a point, probably fairly soon, where all Turbine wants to do is milk the license for what it is worth without putting new development into the game.

It's in all of our interests for the power gap to narrow dramatically over the next year or so.

[changelingamuck]

Very good post.



What you are describing - building a character that works well - is actually one of DDOs core strengths.
Sure, you are free to go and build whatever kind of flavor toon you want, no ones going to stop you...

Okay, I hate to nitpick on a choice of words, but... "Flavor" toons do work well. They are simply characters. I don't understand why it is so prevalent on the forums to split up characters into the categories of "normal characters" and "flavor characters". In actuality, the "flavor characters" are the "normal characters". The practically-perfect-in-every-way min-maxed characters are ABnormal.

When most players roll up their characters in this game, they are building "studious ice sorcerers" or "wise old monk spiritualists" or "protective dwarf fighter bodyguards" or whatever it is that they are imagining up. It isn't *regular* to roll up characters wherein every aspect of the character is determined by a DPS calculator with all the imagination of a pet rock. People who think of "math" as a character concept are not normal. Most people don't look at a video game and/or an rpg and think about how fun it'll be calculating the standard deviation for a sample of several dozen 5-minute DPS tests comparing the difference between an 11/9 class-split and a 12/8 class split. And this is coming from someone with a background in statistics.

Naturally, discussions here are going to have more people who are really into dissecting what's going on "under the hood" of the game. But can we acknowledge that these forums are like opposite world and it can possibly alienate new players reading them to get the impression that "Calculon Toons" are the expected standard?

It's no wonder new player retention is brushed off around here all the time. This is a place where the placement of +2 ability points on gnomes in Int vs. Wisdom is treated with the gravity of an existential crisis...

[JOTMON]

In DDO a tremendous power gap exists between newer and casual players and those that have been playing for a long time or concentrate on optimizing their character. This is a statement most realize and one that many will agree with. What I don’t think people understand is just how wide that gap really is.

~snip~
I do not have an easy fix to make everyone happy. But I think realizing how different the power levels are can at least give people a better understanding of where an opposing view point is coming from. In the end we all just want to have fun. Different quest difficulty levels are a good way to get there. We just need to help Turbine realize how different a casual difficulty and elite difficulty should be.


There should be a power gap between veteran and casual players.

If someone plays 6 hours daily every day for years on end in endgame content, and someone else plays for 25 hours a year would you expect the casual player to have the gear, experience and overall comfort level with a complicated indepth game.. I wouldn't.

I wouldn't expect to jump into any MMO and be running Elite endgame out of the gate, in fact If I did the game would be shelved shortly after.
As a new player I would not expect to be running any raids or joining a elitist group of players to blow through content.. I would not expect any elite players to be joining my group with that mentality either..
New players should be still flower sniffing and dungeon crawling exploring nooks and crannies..

I think there need to be more of a segregation between the power players and newbies..
If newbies want to skip ahead.. that's on them.. Want to play with newbies.. roll up a new toon and run with them.
This way there is a more defined line between new/casual players and veteran players.

Would like to see more no go back zones.. like Korthos where you can skip, just add a once you are gone you can't come back lockout...
Have Sunnyside Eberron/FR as Casual, Normal, Hard.
and Gloomyside Eberron/FR as Hard, Elite, Legendary
Could even add a test quest to challenge the transition like we had back in the day.. you couldn't get to the Harbour until you completed a run through the Butchers Path.

Or...

A Starter server for all newcomers.
When you complete the target level for favor you get a optional server transfer token to migrate to the next tier server (can pay to bypass if you have the appropriate level)..
Restructure the servers so that the quests are level range limited, this way ...

Server 1 - Starter server caps at level 16 (Heroic Shroud is endgame)

Server 2 - Epic Server starts at 15 (includes Iconics) and goes to 28 ( No content below level 15, covers expansion required content.)
..Expect most casual players will not migrate beyond here..

Server 3 - Legendary Server Min level 25+ (Epic Hard, Elite and Legendary content)
..Hardcore time...

Server 4 - Permadeath. (modified to support permadeath, all content, levels)

Each server only has content for it's respective level range. earn your tokens to migrate off the world to the next one.
This would pool more players into closer level ranges for the respective servers from all the previous stand alone servers.
TR takes you back to server 1 Gloomyside (or separate Server 1A if population supports it) with gear restricted by min level and only accessible when you get back to the server that supports those levels.

[changelingamuck]

It's in all of our interests for the power gap to narrow dramatically over the next year or so.

Yes. Totally true. The thing about 'being better than everyone else' is that it's inherently alienating. And if it isn't kept within reason, it leaves an environment where all the other kids take their balls and play in a different playground. That's simply reality.

[Warrax23]

+1 Signed.

I 100% agree, however I will add that I am sick of my 6-7 getting nerfed into a 2 because the Devs listen to the whiner class, and do NOT understand or play at a high level. They are trying to cater to everyone, but can only use HE/EE/LE as a baseline. More people need to just play at normal (Because this should BE the baseline) but most people seem to think EE is the playing fields start and end because of BAD mechanics. Bravery Bonus needs to go. Just add the XP into all of the quest and just be done with it, it's crippling the game and people aren't able to relax and play the game. I know I'm personally not enjoying the game as is, it's not fun, I have nothing to show for all the time and money I've spent on this game in the last 10 years, I keep having to start again because of nerfs, or re-balancing. But I seem to be the vocal minority here I assume.

-ME

[KoobTheProud]

Yes. Totally true. The thing about 'being better than everyone else' is that it's inherently alienating. And if it isn't kept within reason, it leaves an environment where all the other kids take their balls and play in a different playground. That's simply reality.

It's not just the alienation, which can be real for some players, but also the attainability of high end power for new players coming in. A 6 month grind to end game is not unreasonable for a seasoned MMO player trying out DDO to see if it offers more than the game he or she has just given up on. Many players have made that kind of sacrifice of time in the past to get to the currently supported levels. It's when they're looking at literally years of effort to reach near peak play levels that things become unwieldy and frankly everything looks unattainable.

Who is going to commit to years of play to max out their character when the game is already a decade old and nobody knows how long it will be actively supported?

The answer is very few players will make that commitment. So power levels need to be attainable in a realistic timeframe in order for the player base to grow significantly over time. The player base needs to grow over time or the game will ultimately wither as veteran players get burned out or find newer and better things and move on. In that environment we are in maintenance mode as soon as the bean counters at the various places looking at the license decide that further investment will not produce greater profits than just pedaling on the stationary bike and milking the existing player base as it declines.

I think we can mostly agree that accelerating the average new player to 50 past life power over the timeframes in question is a terrible idea. The alternative to that is bringing the power levels in the game back to reality. Maintaining super power levels for the oldest and most accomplished characters is just stringing us along into an end game environment that will be unfulfilling for everybody.

DDO is at the level cap. This is clear from everybody's perspective. Now Turbine needs to grow the player base with a realistic end game plan for new players coming in the door or go to maintenance mode as soon as it is clear that the subscriber/premium player base is in the inevitable decline that an inability to attract and retain new players will cause.

We're there. If not now, certainly in the months to come.

[LightBear]

Yes it is for level 30 characters.

2000 AOE means I am hitting every mob in my area of effect for 2000 damage each.

DPS is sustainable average damage. So if someone has a burst that does 15k every 10 seconds and an SLA that does 300 every 2 seconds their DPS would be 1,650. Use the 10 second cool down of the burst as the time measurement. 15k + 1500 (the five times the SLA would fire) = 16,500. Divide this by the time increment, 16,500 / 10 = 1,650.

In game the most common test is the Bruntsmash test. Time increment is determined by how fast you can deal about 115,000 damage then averaged to determine DPS. People can build for this but they only do so for bragging rights. Most players who really want to know will do the test using the destiny, attacks, enhancements, etc. that they use with normal questing.

DPS Chart

1=100
2=300
3=500
4=750
5=1000
6=2000
7=3000
8=4000
9=5000
10= over 9000!

What would be the norm for Epic Normal, Epic Hard and Epic Elite on a level 30 quest?
And why are we discussing the dps of a single character while we should be discussing the effects of actual team play?

[Burradin]

I agree with this assessment, but there is no denying that I notice that extra 36 PRR, 155 hp, 5 dc, 9 spell pen etc. The benefits are substantial and the problem I see is not that people with past lifes have the benefit. The problem is that people without the past lifes have no alternative way to get to the same power level without spending huge amounts of time. I think it's only an issue that needs to be dealt with because the people with the power are complaining the game is too easy.

The way I would solve the problem if I was Turbine is by giving all past lifes a bonus type, e.g., quality bonus. Then gear with a quality bonus would give non-stacking bonuses with past lifes. So the benefit of past lifes becomes that you don't need to slot quality bonsues rather than you get an amazing bonus not available to first-lifers. It still adds power, but with build and gearing choices a relatively new player can make trade-offs to get one or two things close (DC and spell pen for a caster and maybe PRR for a barbarian).

People might still feel their work is diminished and rage if it happened, so Turbine may never even try and address the issue, but at a minimum they should look at addressing it for DC casters where it makes the biggest difference.

I play a warlock with most of the past lifes and one with almost nothing. The way I bridge the gap there is the less accomplished warlock uses EE skyvault shield with feats for more PRR/MRR. I lose a little on offense, but bridge the gap on defense easily.

At the bottom you mention something that a lot of folks don't seem to get. Sacrifice some offense to stay alive. My Warlock is a heroic completionist working on Epics now, 4th life. I solo quest because one I can and two, I don't have to worry about others. But since starting EPIC completionist, I have started raiding again. I can't tell you the number of rez scrolls I have used to rez these high dps warlocks who can't stay alive. Lag deaths aside, can get anyone, you got to be able to survive when you get a mob's attention. So my build is about killing, but slower so that I can live to the end. I am not near geared out as that comes when I get closer to being done and I can still hit over 140 AC and PRR (In US, still hitting 85 AC in current destiny that I can't even remember I am in, have to get them all eventually). Not as high as it will be eventually, but I can survive using all the tools in my tool box. I actually feel bad when I die and someone has to raise me. I start looking at why and could I prevent it next time. Yes, I am actually using a BS and towershield, because I want to....lol

So some people think the best toon is one that can dps X amount. That is a valid view they have. My view is different, can you still be standing at the end. I still remember early in the monk days running a quest and running around gather soul stones, dropping them off at a shrine the dragging mobs off while healing myself to allow the rest of the party to rez , heal and prepare. Trust me, I remember times like they way more than the most DPS I ever did. Heck, I am not sure what that DPS number is as I don't remember. Note you still have to kill the mobs, so balance between dps/survivability is what I strive for. When you quit caring what others do in this game is when you will start to really enjoy the game. Don't let others decide for you.

I have been around since about a month or two after release, so I have seen most it over the years. I used to be obsessed with others and what they did to messed up my fun. Now I laugh to myself and keep on trucking.

[kemetka]

This.

Melees are dead and so is the game. great job Turbine.

whenever i hear this argument it tends to come from people that dont know how to build melees, or casters, or ranged, or cc, or whatever it is.
in my particular case, i dont know how to build strong melee characters, its not my forte, and its not my playstyle.
and from my experience melees are far from dead, theres some truly good melee players out there that can out shine alot of people, and i dont hear them complain.
i wonder why...

[MeliCat]

The key thing to remember about the power gap is that if the higher levels of power ever become practically speaking unobtainable for new players joining that DDO will be in maintenance mode shortly thereafter. Most of the costs in DDO are sunk at this point and there will come a point, probably fairly soon, where all Turbine wants to do is milk the license for what it is worth without putting new development into the game.

It's in all of our interests for the power gap to narrow dramatically over the next year or so.

I disagree with "unobtainable for new players". Brand new yes. But over time, no. Go to any game and this is true. Why do you want to dumb the game down? Dumb games and dumb and people leave because they are stupid. You want to make DDO stupid?

A *good player* will very quickly get to top levels of play. They have good gaming instincts, have a good understanding of mechanics and are happy to put in the effort to farm and create the character they need. This will still take a little bit of time but that's life.

An *average player* could play for years and never get there. Or they could get the basics and be happy enough for whatever level they get to.

I don't understand why you want a dumb game. You do know that's why people leave too yes? So I agree the steep learning curve for when you first start needs to be tweaked, but you want to remove challenge and worth from the end of game?

[KoobTheProud]

I disagree with "unobtainable for new players". Brand new yes. But over time, no. Go to any game and this is true. Why do you want to dumb the game down? Dumb games and dumb and people leave because they are stupid. You want to make DDO stupid?

A *good player* will very quickly get to top levels of play. They have good gaming instincts, have a good understanding of mechanics and are happy to put in the effort to farm and create the character they need. This will still take a little bit of time but that's life.

An *average player* could play for years and never get there. Or they could get the basics and be happy enough for whatever level they get to.

I don't understand why you want a dumb game. You do know that's why people leave too yes? So I agree the steep learning curve for when you first start needs to be tweaked, but you want to remove challenge and worth from the end of game?

What I want to remove is the effect of having 50+ incremental bonuses that a new player will take literally years to accumulate even with a heavy play investment.

That's what is killing this game. Because new players come in and look around and most of them leave when they realize that even if they like the game a 6 month grind won't get them to the promised land.

Most MMO's manage this problem by having a continually increasing end game in which gear is the only thing that really matters. Then they create many varied ways to power through the XP required to get to end game, including purchasing characters that are 80% of the way there with representative gear so they can just level hard to cap and then start grinding gear. The gear that end game players has to grind changes every 6 months to a year with a new end game environment based on either a new expansion or a level cap raise or both.

DDO can't do this because end game is not level 30. End game is level 30 and at least a dozen past lives related to whatever class you are playing. It's about the incremental power that other past lives allow, although not as important as the prime past lives for whatever you're doing at the moment. It's about gear that literally took years to grind and that significantly increase the power of the characters. There are no other MMO's in which gear you grinded out 2 years ago is still relevant at end game. There are very few shortcuts to grinding out that gear also. It's another long grind alongside the past lives and you may or may not be able to get where you want based on random drops otherwise.

If DDO's posture moving forward is that it is a game dominated by OCD Methuselahs, well there aren't very many people who would come in to a 10 year old game trying to attain that status and DDO loses the existing ones every day to normal attrition.

[Pnumbra]

In summary to all the posts 'blah blah blah get PLs you aren't as good a player etc'. First, I am an excellent player. I have said many times, you learn all you need to know about this game in 2 months. This game is not a hard CPU game. Go play something like Eve. That is hard. This is easy. There is almost no player skill involved that any experienced gamer does not have. I challenge any of you mini-Thors to start a perma death group with me first life characters no twink gear and we'll see who lives longest. NO? Don't want to do that right? Because it is not about ANYTHING you claim. You are not uber. You have simply been playing for years and have accumulated past lives. Let's once again knock down these straw man arguments that are always used...

1. Veterans have unique builds! Wrong. They have copied the FotM builds from the forums. Everyone uses the same set of builds. OK, maybe a brand new player might get trapped into a premade junk build that Turbine offers you, but anyone who goes to the forums uses the same set of builds. You have not invented anything great build wise. Another part of this is that virtually EVERY build does the exact same thing, they just differ in how they do it. They are all high DPS, self healing , high defense builds. They are all the same cookie cutter sorry to burst your ego bubble.

2. Past lives don't matter! Wrong. Aprox...30% damage reduction, 25% elemental resistance, +80 HPs, +70 AC, +12 DMG to every hit, huge boosts to DCs and SP etc etc. You don't think all this adding up is huge? Of course it is. If it isn't then again, come play perma death with me as a first life character.

3. I am so skilled I dominate groups! Wrong. You have 5 years of accumulated gear. All those 1% players have epic rings of spell storing. How did they get those? Hmmm.... Loads of duped items, loads of legit items, yes, your forum copied build plays better than someone using loot gen stuff. Yet you still whine and complain and want loot gen nerfed!

4. You are not really interested in balancing this game. You are not interested in competitive game play. You want to be mini-Thors. At least some of you have admitted it here. Others cling to the argument, oh just challenge my mini-Thor! I and ever DM who has ever run a D&D campaign will tell you there is NO way to sustain a monty haul campaign. If you want to play a min-Thor there are games for this - League of Legends might be more you style. D&D has always been a group game. In the OP example there is one player showing off and 5 people having a miserable time then the OP comes on here and brags about how great he is, which of course he isn't, he has just collected more stuff.

D&D characters were never meant to have this much power. Since this 1% have no interest in actually playing a group game please consider (talking to the Devs here) making a DDO Classic Server where these power abuses do not occur, where you have no past lives and get one ED with no twists. Let's see then who plays this game. The clamoring mini-Thors who want moar power to benefit only themselves or those interesting in a dynamic grouping experience where you need to work together to succeed.

This game has been hijacked by the players who post YouTube completions videos which scream look at me! look at me! I am awesomesauce validate my ego pleeeeeeease!!!! However the vast majority of players I have ever met in game are not like the OP, they are people who have had the most fun when completing a tough quest that has pushed our group to the max. DDO needs to start addressing this group of players and let the mini-Thors go. They are going to quit anyway because there is nothing you can do to challenge them in a monty haul campaign.

I really like this post. The essence of the collective is well defined. By collective, I mean those (and I won't just throw out numbers without any real meaning to sound important) who have saturated their game experience and are now, bored. For whatever reason, they have done it all, got it all, and voiced it all...and now there is no where to go.

The OP is wrong. The power gap in miscible and dilutes into nothingness in short order. As someone else noted, this is not a game of skill, it is one of memorization (knowledge) of how a quest/raid works. Face it, these quest don't change with each instance, it is just a rinse/repeat cycle. At one point, I thought The Dreaming Dark was difficult, all that jumping. Now it takes me about 10-13 minutes to plow through it. Why? Because I know what to expect and what to do, where to jump, and what path to take. The only thing Elite does is make the fights take longer. There is no additional difficulty added, thus no skill required.

DPS is all fine and good, but let's be honest, who gives as rat's ass? As long as the quest gets completed, it's all good. Are people really desiring bragging rights in a game? Look, I'm a casual player according to the definition used on these forums, and I can tell you; I don't care who has the kill count all time high. Billy-Bob hits for 5k, fantastic! Glad that person is in our PUG/LFM, because boss fights take too **** long as it is.

You want to crunch number, be my guess. Tell yourself you are great all you want. The only person a player should be in competition with in this game is him/herself.

This game is not going to get better under the current plan of action. The Devs (story tellers) will have to do a better job at player immersion, but that is another topic.

[Slymenstraa]

First things first. The one or two people here that keep whining about removing past lives, drop it already. If past lives are taken away, the game dies almost instantly. Every server would be Wayfinder. Then your character would be the "mini-thor" because you would be the only one left.


There is a power gap in every single game. When you start a new game, you will never be, and shouldn't be uber from the start. It's called rewards for effort and time devoted to the game. There is a divide in WOW, Neverwinter, hell even Hearthstone and Magic the Gathering. If you are new to MtG, for example, do you whine and tell the creators that you need the same cards that everyone else has that's been playing for the last 10 years? I already know what they will tell you. Go buy some packs of cards, get the cards that the vets have, and until then play with people of your skill level. That's not meant to sound mean, but there is simply a divide between new players and vets in every game. Don't expect or demand that vet players be nerfed to your level, that ust causes vets to say the heck with it and quit.


Lastly, do not lump all of us vets into the uber elitist show off category. I know and run with many multi life players and have many myself. The ones i run with like new players and are aware that we can crush content in seconds, but we slow down to let the new guys explore a little and try to provide support dps when things get crazy. We take care of traps, or at least call them out for a new born rogue, and provide healing when needed. The only time i showboat is when grouped with my good friends, but they are long time friends, so screw em, they can deal with it :) Haha, love you guys and gals.



The power gap simply can't be easily solved, it will always be there. A long time vet can roll up a 28 point build from scratch with no money or gear and still crush the content. Quest knowledge is a huge factor. A server with the no tr stipulation would end up being another Wayfinder, and I doubt there would ever be any resources allocated to that. Take away past lives, the game will die, no arguing that point. If you need advice or tips ask, there are plenty of players willing to help with anything you need. You can always ask me, Slymenstraa, ellonea, Neznarf, and Tienee, Sarlona server.

[Jasparion]

The biggest problem with the game is that the Devs have completely and utterly dropped the ball in terms of balance. It is simply ridiculous that I can make a 1st life toon, get to 30 and have easy to get gear and obliterate Completionist characters with BiS gear simply because some classes/multi-classes are just light-years ahead of others.

Even within classes there is a huge difference. Rogue Assassin you basically need the very best of everything. Rogue Mechanic you need a Great XBow.

I decided to play Melee this life despite end game basically being horrible for Melee, but everyone else in my guild have gone Ranged/Caster. I can see them carrying my stone a lot, or me just never really contributing much and being carried.

Though I guess if I haste a lot I can run around behind mobs hitting them while they are being kited...

[Eth]

Okay, I hate to nitpick on a choice of words, but... "Flavor" toons do work well. They are simply characters. I don't understand why it is so prevalent on the forums to split up characters into the categories of "normal characters" and "flavor characters". In actuality, the "flavor characters" are the "normal characters". The practically-perfect-in-every-way min-maxed characters are ABnormal.

When most players roll up their characters in this game, they are building "studious ice sorcerers" or "wise old monk spiritualists" or "protective dwarf fighter bodyguards" or whatever it is that they are imagining up. It isn't *regular* to roll up characters wherein every aspect of the character is determined by a DPS calculator with all the imagination of a pet rock. People who think of "math" as a character concept are not normal. Most people don't look at a video game and/or an rpg and think about how fun it'll be calculating the standard deviation for a sample of several dozen 5-minute DPS tests comparing the difference between an 11/9 class-split and a 12/8 class split. And this is coming from someone with a background in statistics.

Naturally, discussions here are going to have more people who are really into dissecting what's going on "under the hood" of the game. But can we acknowledge that these forums are like opposite world and it can possibly alienate new players reading them to get the impression that "Calculon Toons" are the expected standard?

It's no wonder new player retention is brushed off around here all the time. This is a place where the placement of +2 ability points on gnomes in Int vs. Wisdom is treated with the gravity of an existential crisis...

That's not what I meant with that at all. :D I'm not calling flavor builds gimp.
It was more meant like a new player starts up DDO and wants to build a drow fighter/ranger/rogue that dual wields scimitars... Fine. He has something in mind.
But someone that is new and has no clue what to build, let alone someone that's not familiar with DnD, could use a hand with builds. The standard paths though are all bad and sadly a newby trap. No need that it is like that.

[LightBear]

Okay, I hate to nitpick on a choice of words, but... "Flavor" toons do work well. They are simply characters. I don't understand why it is so prevalent on the forums to split up characters into the categories of "normal characters" and "flavor characters". In actuality, the "flavor characters" are the "normal characters". The practically-perfect-in-every-way min-maxed characters are ABnormal.

When most players roll up their characters in this game, they are building "studious ice sorcerers" or "wise old monk spiritualists" or "protective dwarf fighter bodyguards" or whatever it is that they are imagining up. It isn't *regular* to roll up characters wherein every aspect of the character is determined by a DPS calculator with all the imagination of a pet rock. People who think of "math" as a character concept are not normal. Most people don't look at a video game and/or an rpg and think about how fun it'll be calculating the standard deviation for a sample of several dozen 5-minute DPS tests comparing the difference between an 11/9 class-split and a 12/8 class split. And this is coming from someone with a background in statistics.

Naturally, discussions here are going to have more people who are really into dissecting what's going on "under the hood" of the game. But can we acknowledge that these forums are like opposite world and it can possibly alienate new players reading them to get the impression that "Calculon Toons" are the expected standard?

It's no wonder new player retention is brushed off around here all the time. This is a place where the placement of +2 ability points on gnomes in Int vs. Wisdom is treated with the gravity of an existential crisis...

So much this, DDO is an RPG. Or at least should aim to be this.
All this talk of DPS is so much hack n slash.
Sure I'm just as much a number geek that also I will have existential crisis over what the devs think is right for Gnomes like any other pencil pusher. ;)
(Or why add Gnomes as a race instead of any others. :p )
It's a game, have fun and you're a winner. :)

[KoobTheProud]

First things first. The one or two people here that keep whining about removing past lives, drop it already. If past lives are taken away, the game dies almost instantly. Every server would be Wayfinder. Then your character would be the "mini-thor" because you would be the only one left.


There is a power gap in every single game. When you start a new game, you will never be, and shouldn't be uber from the start. It's called rewards for effort and time devoted to the game. There is a divide in WOW, Neverwinter, hell even Hearthstone and Magic the Gathering. If you are new to MtG, for example, do you whine and tell the creators that you need the same cards that everyone else has that's been playing for the last 10 years? I already know what they will tell you. Go buy some packs of cards, get the cards that the vets have, and until then play with people of your skill level. That's not meant to sound mean, but there is simply a divide between new players and vets in every game. Don't expect or demand that vet players be nerfed to your level, that ust causes vets to say the heck with it and quit.

This is a ridiculous statement though. There's no other game that allows character advances obtained years ago to have a significant continuing effect on play over advances that good new players can accumulate over the course of 6 months.

It doesn't happen. DDO is the only game that says because you leveled a character to cap fifty times you are guaranteed to be much more powerful than a player who has leveled a character to cap once.

The vet knowledge argument is total ****. Any good player who plays DDO for 6 months and levels to cap is likely to have 98% of the knowledge about the class he chose that the fifty life player has accumulated over the years. DDO is not that complicated by a longshot and most of the answers you're looking for are assembled here somewhere on the forums. Veteran knowledge is dispensed on a daily basis by people who have played the game and published builds for years and it dramatically shortcuts the process of acquiring the 'necessary' knowledge to blow through the game.

Long-time vets can claim that their advantage is at least as much knowledge as past lives and gear but that argument doesn't hold water. You only need to run an HE/EE/LE instance once to get the info on where the traps are and to figure out which mobs have to be dealt with at range and which can be tackled head on. The possible 2% knowledge gap that a true vet has over a good new player isn't enough to make the difference in the highest level content. The accumulated gear and past lives though, those are more than enough to make a difference in a lot of content.

[eris2323]

First things first. The one or two people here that keep whining about removing past lives, drop it already. If past lives are taken away, the game dies almost instantly. Every server would be Wayfinder. Then your character would be the "mini-thor" because you would be the only one left.


There is a power gap in every single game. When you start a new game, you will never be, and shouldn't be uber from the start. It's called rewards for effort and time devoted to the game. There is a divide in WOW, Neverwinter, hell even Hearthstone and Magic the Gathering. If you are new to MtG, for example, do you whine and tell the creators that you need the same cards that everyone else has that's been playing for the last 10 years? I already know what they will tell you. Go buy some packs of cards, get the cards that the vets have, and until then play with people of your skill level. That's not meant to sound mean, but there is simply a divide between new players and vets in every game. Don't expect or demand that vet players be nerfed to your level, that ust causes vets to say the heck with it and quit.


Lastly, do not lump all of us vets into the uber elitist show off category. I know and run with many multi life players and have many myself. The ones i run with like new players and are aware that we can crush content in seconds, but we slow down to let the new guys explore a little and try to provide support dps when things get crazy. We take care of traps, or at least call them out for a new born rogue, and provide healing when needed. The only time i showboat is when grouped with my good friends, but they are long time friends, so screw em, they can deal with it :) Haha, love you guys and gals.



The power gap simply can't be easily solved, it will always be there. A long time vet can roll up a 28 point build from scratch with no money or gear and still crush the content. Quest knowledge is a huge factor. A server with the no tr stipulation would end up being another Wayfinder, and I doubt there would ever be any resources allocated to that. Take away past lives, the game will die, no arguing that point. If you need advice or tips ask, there are plenty of players willing to help with anything you need. You can always ask me, Slymenstraa, ellonea, Neznarf, and Tienee, Sarlona server.
I agree with all of this, especially the first paragraph.

[changelingamuck]

That's not what I meant with that at all. :D I'm not calling flavor builds gimp.
It was more meant like a new player starts up DDO and wants to build a drow fighter/ranger/rogue that dual wields scimitars... Fine. He has something in mind.
But someone that is new and has no clue what to build, let alone someone that's not familiar with DnD, could use a hand with builds. The standard paths though are all bad and sadly a newby trap. No need that it is like that.

Well, that's totally true. Might be better to just have cursor-over pop-up build tips appear during character generation and just delete all the premade paths... I think a person with a small amount of background information about how d&d works (not even DDO specifically) would make more viable builds...

[KoobTheProud]

Well, that's totally true. Might be better to just have cursor-over pop-up build tips appear during character generation and just delete all the premade paths... I think a person with a small amount of background information about how d&d works (not even DDO specifically) would make more viable builds...

I'm not even thinking about casual players in my arguments. The question is what happens when a guy who is used to playing 30 hours a week and getting to end game in good shape in 6 months opens up DDO and likes it and then does the math on how long it will take him to get all those past lives accumulated so that he is raid capable at end game and not just bobbing like a cork in the wake of the 3 or 4 guys who could actually run the raid without him but are being nice by carrying him through it?

The point of end game for new end game players is to PLAY THE GAME not bob like a cork in the wake of players that they can never catch up too in the likely lifespan of the game.

[Sam1313]

Snipped
I challenge any of you mini-Thors to start a perma death group with me first life characters no twink gear and we'll see who lives longest.

I will. I have several PD characters on Cannith in a PD guild. Lets go.

[Wipey]

Past lives are overestimated and you certainly don't need billions xp or years to be effective.
50 past lives do not make a good player. Might get flak for this, but it's often the opposite.

"I will just get ( triple ) completionist then I will be able to play hard content" - I heard this few times. Well no, you won't.

36 point build, some tomes ( it's stupid that they are p2w only at this point but that's what it is ), destiny or two and you are set. It's never been easier.

Some builds don't even need that. Newb assassin or wizard will get crushed, but Blitzer mechanic or borelock do not require much.

There is huge gap, but it's the experience or call it knowledge which you get by playing a lot and playing outside your comfort zone, rather than all the past lives in the world.

[changelingamuck]

The point of end game for new end game players is to PLAY THE GAME not bob like a cork in the wake of players that they can never catch up too in the likely lifespan of the game.

Agreed. It's been a big problem for a while now and only gotten worse. When they added the +3 MRR per Warlock past life, I just cringed. Would fewer people really have played warlocks if the past life had been +1 MRR per life? Maybe a handful of 'accountant-style' players, but I doubt more than that.

Other games use a lot more fluff prestige-type gaming incentives that only give cosmetic bragging rights for continued play (like 'titles' or 'trophies' for example). Those actually do motivate people to continue playing without generating the kinds of power gap problems accumulating over the years that we're discussing here. I wish we would start moving in that direction to incentivize play more.

[Basura_Grande]

Past lives are overestimated and you certainly don't need billions xp or years to be effective.
50 past lives do not make a good player. Might get flak for this, but it's often the opposite.


So true, most of the "ubber-completionists" are not very good.

[KoobTheProud]

There is huge gap, but it's the experience or call it knowledge which you get by playing a lot and playing outside your comfort zone, rather than all the past lives in the world.

So a very good player with 50 past lives and a very good player with none at cap are basically in the same situation?

Really?

[Brac]

I really like this post. The essence of the collective is well defined. By collective, I mean those (and I won't just throw out numbers without any real meaning to sound important) who have saturated their game experience and are now, bored. For whatever reason, they have done it all, got it all, and voiced it all...and now there is no where to go.

The OP is wrong. The power gap in miscible and dilutes into nothingness in short order. As someone else noted, this is not a game of skill, it is one of memorization (knowledge) of how a quest/raid works. Face it, these quest don't change with each instance, it is just a rinse/repeat cycle. At one point, I thought The Dreaming Dark was difficult, all that jumping. Now it takes me about 10-13 minutes to plow through it. Why? Because I know what to expect and what to do, where to jump, and what path to take. The only thing Elite does is make the fights take longer. There is no additional difficulty added, thus no skill required.

DPS is all fine and good, but let's be honest, who gives as rat's ass? As long as the quest gets completed, it's all good. Are people really desiring bragging rights in a game? Look, I'm a casual player according to the definition used on these forums, and I can tell you; I don't care who has the kill count all time high. Billy-Bob hits for 5k, fantastic! Glad that person is in our PUG/LFM, because boss fights take too **** long as it is.

You want to crunch number, be my guess. Tell yourself you are great all you want. The only person a player should be in competition with in this game is him/herself.

This game is not going to get better under the current plan of action. The Devs (story tellers) will have to do a better job at player immersion, but that is another topic.

Do you really think DPS does not matter? Do you really think everyone is playing on the same level? Quest knowledge is useful but not as large a factor as you are making it out to be. Especially since most quests are just kill these mobs and move forward. I get the feeling that you are someone with very low DPS and feel like I was trying to demean you. It wasn't meant to be offensive. Being underpowered does not equate to being a bad player.

Just getting the quest done is not the only end result. There is a big difference between getting the quest done in 15 minutes with no deaths and having it take an hour with 25 deaths.

[Brac]

Past lives are overestimated and you certainly don't need billions xp or years to be effective.
50 past lives do not make a good player. Might get flak for this, but it's often the opposite.

"I will just get ( triple ) completionist then I will be able to play hard content" - I heard this few times. Well no, you won't.

36 point build, some tomes ( it's stupid that they are p2w only at this point but that's what it is ), destiny or two and you are set. It's never been easier.

Some builds don't even need that. Newb assassin or wizard will get crushed, but Blitzer mechanic or borelock do not require much.

There is huge gap, but it's the experience or call it knowledge which you get by playing a lot and playing outside your comfort zone, rather than all the past lives in the world.

This is true.

I know players that are triple completionist heroic that have never set foot in an epic quest. They are not good enough players to handle the challenge. That is why they are triple heroic. Once they get to 20 they TR because they know it and can handle that content. These people may not be the best DDO players but they are great people. They play the game that they find enjoyable and there is nothing wrong with that.

[KoobTheProud]

Agreed. It's been a big problem for a while now and only gotten worse. When they added the +3 MRR per Warlock past life, I just cringed. Would fewer people really have played warlocks if the past life had been +1 MRR per life? Maybe a handful of 'accountant-style' players, but I doubt more than that.

Other games use a lot more fluff prestige-type gaming incentives that only give cosmetic bragging rights for continued play (like 'titles' or 'trophies' for example). Those actually do motivate people to continue playing without generating the kinds of power gap problems accumulating over the years that we're discussing here. I wish we would start moving in that direction to incentivize play more.

As an example: EverQuest has an alternate advancement system which is fairly close to open ended. You gain small advantages which are incremental that over time greatly increase the power of your character.

The game has been going for 17 years now and many players have thousands of AA's built-up. The solution for the devs was to grant a huge experience boost to AA experience for players below 4000 AA's. They get 5x the amount of AA experience that people get early in the process and significantly more right up to the 4000 level. Then players can toggle an autogrant of AA's that fills up most of the prerequisites for the tier just below the current cap.

This is kind of the equivalent of letting newer players gain past lives at a greatly accelerated rate and then once they hit a particular threshold automatically granting them one of each past life to further narrow the gap. It means that a new player to the game is really never more than about a year behind the highest end players and with a lot of grinding will catch up to much closer than that in a reasonable timeframe. It means the devs only have to program one endgame environment because anybody who joins the game is within reasonable distance of the current high end builds.

It's still a veteran advantage but it's not a years of grinding veteran advantage in which the years will be spent trailing players who are much stronger than you in the game system.

[Holyavatar]

I'm not even thinking about casual players in my arguments. The question is what happens when a guy who is used to playing 30 hours a week and getting to end game in good shape in 6 months opens up DDO and likes it and then does the math on how long it will take him to get all those past lives accumulated so that he is raid capable at end game and not just bobbing like a cork in the wake of the 3 or 4 guys who could actually run the raid without him but are being nice by carrying him through it?

The point of end game for new end game players is to PLAY THE GAME not bob like a cork in the wake of players that they can never catch up too in the likely lifespan of the game.

Nope,u can get 90 pastlifes in one day..its just a matter of money...I know a guy who played like 2 months got all endgame gears/pastlifes,but he is still bad at this game..Why bother to whine one issue over and over,we all know it wont change ...If u really hate pastlifes and feel unfair,just drop the game it wont hurt anything.

[Slymenstraa]

This is a ridiculous statement though. There's no other game that allows character advances obtained years ago to have a significant continuing effect on play over advances that good new players can accumulate over the course of 6 months.

It doesn't happen. DDO is the only game that says because you leveled a character to cap fifty times you are guaranteed to be much more powerful than a player who has leveled a character to cap once.

The vet knowledge argument is total ****. Any good player who plays DDO for 6 months and levels to cap is likely to have 98% of the knowledge about the class he chose that the fifty life player has accumulated over the years. DDO is not that complicated by a longshot and most of the answers you're looking for are assembled here somewhere on the forums. Veteran knowledge is dispensed on a daily basis by people who have played the game and published builds for years and it dramatically shortcuts the process of acquiring the 'necessary' knowledge to blow through the game.

Long-time vets can claim that their advantage is at least as much knowledge as past lives and gear but that argument doesn't hold water. You only need to run an HE/EE/LE instance once to get the info on where the traps are and to figure out which mobs have to be dealt with at range and which can be tackled head on. The possible 2% knowledge gap that a true vet has over a good new player isn't enough to make the difference in the highest level content. The accumulated gear and past lives though, those are more than enough to make a difference in a lot of content.


I guess you have a point if you are referring to the games out there that have pretty sparkly path to follow and your levels are auto granted after x number of quests. Then upon achieving said cap you still follow the sparkly path to the same quests over and over, you know, cookie cutter mmos. Games lie that take no effort, tactics, strategy, or skill to be good at. This game does however. Your statement that knowledge means nothing is refuted by you in the next sentence. We provide that info to HELP new players and while they may know about their class and most quests by the time they finish a life, they still have several classes and most likely many quests left to learn, so knowledge of how a wiz will perform at what levels is kinda important. That type of knowledge is as important as anything. Let's face it, a low level wiz and cleric suck.

[KoobTheProud]

Nope,u can get 90 pastlifes in one day..its just a matter of money...I know a guy who played like 2 months got all endgame gears/pastlifes,but he is still bad at this game..Why bother to whine one issue over and over,we all know it wont change ...If u really hate pastlifes and feel unfair,just drop the game it wont hurt anything.

The problem is the devs have picked an awkward way to move forward, which is to make all the existing classes much more powerful against the game system than they should be. This has the effect of trivializing all content for the uber-completionists and making it much less enjoyable for people playing the game through at all levels. You can't die in an overland zone at this point. It's just not possible. All the overlands are a combination of Disneyland and Farmville. You really can't die in any normal content either unless you're just a very bad player. Occasionally elite level content will threaten to kill you if you miss a save or if you are an unoptimized build.

Now we have the elite players at the top end simultaneously complaining that the raids are too easy and that they get randomly killed despite that. This is an indicator that the power creep for the existing player base is out of control and the devs are having trouble figuring out how to satisfy the existing player base without doing totally random things to them.

What needs to be done at this point is a three-pronged approach to fixing the game environment:

1. Low level areas, particularly Korthos, need to be revamped to better explain how the game mechanics work to new players entering the game.

2. Epic content needs to become Epic in nature again, not just the "sort-of" Hard that currently exists for most of the player base.

3. At the upper ends the devs need to figure out how to compress the existing player base and the emerging new end game player base into one group that they can program for.

In the example of EQ that I gave above I forgot to mention that one of the things that gave the EQ developers some space was that each AA from 1 to infinity costs a little bit more than the AA before it. This means there was a soft cap on AA's from the very beginning that has prevented the veteran player base from shooting out of sight in terms of sunk abilities. It allowed the devs to easily create options for new players to catch up to near the top with some grinding in the process.

The problem with DDO, aside from the fact that letting people grind a huge number of lives was insane to start with, is that after the 3rd life they all cost the same amount of XP and once you'd figured out how to grind a life out it was pretty easy with strong gear and a set routine to just grind until your ears popped and your eyes bled and you wound up with a character that the game system could not challenge well.

What needs to be done now is to bring the top end back to earth or to create mechanisms in which players can catch up to it without spending thousands of dollars in the process. Players aren't going to spend years or thousands of dollars to get to some level that the players are hoping the devs will program for at some point to make it all worthwhile for their 90 life characters. As a result the devs will not program for that level. Theyll just keep doing what they did with legendary Shroud and give you blow through content that randomly kills you because how else is a dev going to kill a superhero?

Think about it.

You either love your uber-competionist toons or you love the game. One of those two things is going to get whacked at some point and we're not far from the whacking point.

[Anoregon]

This is a real interesting thread. I don't know how much I have to add to it when it comes to potential solutions, though. I've been a casual player for quite a few years now (well before MOTU at least) and don't even have a character above a second life, so that thought of people being 3x+ of every past life is totally foreign and crazy to me. And this is coming from someone who has been in a hardcore, progression raiding WoW guild so I definitely understand how being a contender at end-game in an MMO is supposed to take dedication and be time consuming. The actual time required to do all that TR'ing on a single char just seems so far beyond that, though. And even though each TR isn't game-breaking, they add up to a point where it feels like a first life character is pretty much a joke, or even worse that any non-completionist build is always sub-par. I don't think TR'ing should be nerfed because it's a cool system and pretty unique, but the gap it's created is definitely an issue.

The other issue of course is Tomes. When you have a large portion of the best builds requiring at least +5 tomes for multiple stats, that also seems like a totally insurmountable obstacle for the more casual player, and borders pretty dangerously on pay to win.

[KoobTheProud]

The other issue of course is Tomes. When you have a large portion of the best builds requiring at least +5 tomes for multiple stats, that also seems like a totally insurmountable obstacle for the more casual player, and borders pretty dangerously on pay to win.

Tomes are actually one of the areas where the game doesn't completely demoralize a new player who has looked at the power curve and is trying to figure out how to catch up. It does take a lot of grinding to get the tomes you need for some of the builds (really most of the excellent builds), however you can also just spend $40 and have one character taken care of, with that part of the grind gone for good. You can call that Pay to Win but really it is just Pay to Avoid 2+ years of grinding.

If power creep continues to be the order of the day it would make sense for Turbine to create more $40 saves to get people to a meaningful endgame. There is the problem though that if you require a lot of spending to play your end game content the odds are just as good that people will look elsewhere for their fun in the end.

There are other areas that are problematic, like ship buffs, but a player can always join a guild and get access to those and at end game that's what they're going to want to do anyway.

[eris2323]

This is a real interesting thread. I don't know how much I have to add to it when it comes to potential solutions, though. I've been a casual player for quite a few years now (well before MOTU at least) and don't even have a character above a second life, so that thought of people being 3x+ of every past life is totally foreign and crazy to me. And this is coming from someone who has been in a hardcore, progression raiding WoW guild so I definitely understand how being a contender at end-game in an MMO is supposed to take dedication and be time consuming. The actual time required to do all that TR'ing on a single char just seems so far beyond that, though. And even though each TR isn't game-breaking, they add up to a point where it feels like a first life character is pretty much a joke, or even worse that any non-completionist build is always sub-par. I don't think TR'ing should be nerfed because it's a cool system and pretty unique, but the gap it's created is definitely an issue.

The other issue of course is Tomes. When you have a large portion of the best builds requiring at least +5 tomes for multiple stats, that also seems like a totally insurmountable obstacle for the more casual player, and borders pretty dangerously on pay to win.
I am not a completionist, although I have multiple past lives. I can assure you, I am not sub-par.

I also don't think TR should be nerfed, because it will invalidate all of my work to get this far, and I will be quitting the game if that happens; there's nothing else to do in this game except TR and get more lives.

I don't really care if casual players feel less powerful than me; they are casual players, I am not. Of course I should be more powerful, if I play the game right.

Tomes are a different story; I am not against them being in the store as long as they are also dropping in-game, which I believe is now fixed with the last patch? I could be wrong on that, haven't actually pulled any tomes lately.

If they make casual players equal in power to my character that has spent thousands of hours improving, that's an insult to me and the effort I took to do this. Casual players should play casual, normal, or maybe hard. If they decide to play the game and get better at it, then they can try elite.

Everyone wants something for nothing nowadays... should we give a participation ribbon to every new player to grant 1 past life in each class? I do not think so. They should WORK at it, just as I did.

Otherwise, what, they'll play for a month at high power levels, and then quit because there's nothing else to do, which is much more harmful to the game than the current TR system.

[Anoregon]

You can call that Pay to Win but really it is just Pay to Avoid 2+ years of grinding.


There is no meaningful difference between those two things.

[nokowi]

The vet knowledge argument is total ****. Any good player who plays DDO for 6 months and levels to cap is likely to have 98% of the knowledge about the class he chose that the fifty life player has accumulated over the years. DDO is not that complicated by a longshot and most of the answers you're looking for are assembled here somewhere on the forums. Veteran knowledge is dispensed on a daily basis by people who have played the game and published builds for years and it dramatically shortcuts the process of acquiring the 'necessary' knowledge to blow through the game.



I love comments like this. 98% of players today have a FRACTION of the understanding players did 5 years ago.

Most players don't know how quests and raids work. This kind of knowledge disappeared when power creep got too big. I'll bet a group of true vets (not just people who players for 9 years) could find 100's or even 1000's of things the 6 month player doesn't know.

If your experience differs, you are the 2%.

I'll refer you to my prior post about how players think their experience is representative of everyone.

If you look through this thread, it is full of misconceptions by supposedly knowledgeable players. Everybody thinks they have game knowledge, but very few actually do.

I've been playing for 6 years, and I probably only know 50% of the game.

[KoobTheProud]

There is no meaningful difference between those two things.

The first is what a game that has just been released does. The second is what a game that is 10 years old and wants to attract players who are not willing to grind to play it does.

Nobody in their right mind is going to pick DDO as a long-term project at this point.

EQ got out to 17 years because Verant and then SoE and now DBG owns the IPR to the game.

Turbine has a license to produce DDO that costs some amount of money to maintain each year. It's not the same thing.

[nokowi]

Nobody in their right mind is going to pick DDO as a long-term project at this point.



I heard these same comments 6 years ago when I started. Since then I have completed everything.

If you enjoy playing DDO, why not start? Its about the journey not the destination.

Do you have some secret knowledge of when DDO will end?

[KoobTheProud]

I love comments like this. 98% of players today have a FRACTION of the understanding players did 5 years ago.

Most players don't know how quests and raids work. This kind of knowledge disappeared when power creep got too big. I'll bet a group of true vets (not just people who players for 9 years) could find 100's of things the 6 month player doesn't know.

If your experience differs, you are the 2%.

I'll refer you to my prior post about how players think their experience is representative of everyone.

My first character was a rogue who limped through the tunnels below Korthos in 2006. I'm pretty sure it was the night of release but it's possible I couldn't log on that night because the login servers were overwhelmed. I have a vague memory of making a halfling rogue and hitting done and crashing to desktop with a server timed out message after about 5 minutes of waiting.

My join date on this account is 2009 because I picked the game back up on vacation at the F2P release and did not have access to my original account info. So I created a second account, to have mules and 2-boxers available and then by the time I found my original account info I already had a character higher level on this account than the first one. I'd also taken advantage of several sales to buy adventure packs and I decided to just keep going on this account.

[KoobTheProud]

I heard these same comments 6 years ago when I started. Since then I have completed everything.

If you enjoy playing DDO, why not start? Its about the journey not the destination.

Do you have some secret knowledge of when DDO will end?

DDO was 4 years old at F2P release. It's 10 years old now. There's a big difference.

[Vellrad]

Good players don't have better builds, they have same copied fotm builds as other people

Tell me, genius, how do you think where those builds come from? Are devs giving them? Divine inspiration? Found at excavations?
No, they're made by good players.
And, there are people that don't share their builds at all, there are those who give builds after playing it for some time, and a moment later turbine changes something and they abandom it for something better.

[Qhualor]

The problem is the devs have picked an awkward way to move forward, which is to make all the existing classes much more powerful against the game system than they should be. This has the effect of trivializing all content for the uber-completionists and making it much less enjoyable for people playing the game through at all levels. You can't die in an overland zone at this point. It's just not possible. All the overlands are a combination of Disneyland and Farmville. You really can't die in any normal content either unless you're just a very bad player. Occasionally elite level content will threaten to kill you if you miss a save or if you are an unoptimized build.

Now we have the elite players at the top end simultaneously complaining that the raids are too easy and that they get randomly killed despite that. This is an indicator that the power creep for the existing player base is out of control and the devs are having trouble figuring out how to satisfy the existing player base without doing totally random things to them.

What needs to be done at this point is a three-pronged approach to fixing the game environment:

1. Low level areas, particularly Korthos, need to be revamped to better explain how the game mechanics work to new players entering the game.

2. Epic content needs to become Epic in nature again, not just the "sort-of" Hard that currently exists for most of the player base.

3. At the upper ends the devs need to figure out how to compress the existing player base and the emerging new end game player base into one group that they can program for.

In the example of EQ that I gave above I forgot to mention that one of the things that gave the EQ developers some space was that each AA from 1 to infinity costs a little bit more than the AA before it. This means there was a soft cap on AA's from the very beginning that has prevented the veteran player base from shooting out of sight in terms of sunk abilities. It allowed the devs to easily create options for new players to catch up to near the top with some grinding in the process.

The problem with DDO, aside from the fact that letting people grind a huge number of lives was insane to start with, is that after the 3rd life they all cost the same amount of XP and once you'd figured out how to grind a life out it was pretty easy with strong gear and a set routine to just grind until your ears popped and your eyes bled and you wound up with a character that the game system could not challenge well.

What needs to be done now is to bring the top end back to earth or to create mechanisms in which players can catch up to it without spending thousands of dollars in the process. Players aren't going to spend years or thousands of dollars to get to some level that the players are hoping the devs will program for at some point to make it all worthwhile for their 90 life characters. As a result the devs will not program for that level. Theyll just keep doing what they did with legendary Shroud and give you blow through content that randomly kills you because how else is a dev going to kill a superhero?

Think about it.

You either love your uber-competionist toons or you love the game. One of those two things is going to get whacked at some point and we're not far from the whacking point.

this post actually started off pretty good identifying the actual problems rather than the rewards that are available to players who invest into the game and naming that as the problem.

the actual problem started when the game became more casual friendly after many complaints of elite not worth the time to run except at a higher level for favor and wasting time dying in quests that ultimately resulted in failure in a lot of cases. reincarnation didn't really become a big thing until cap was raised to 25. the old end game we all knew was disappearing when MOTU quests and raids offered better rewards. going from 8ish end game raids to 2ish really hurt the end game scene when it was previously popular to have many alts and have just a couple past lives. with duping, raid timer bypass, guaranteed rewards on a 20th completion, P2WAH and other things helping to dissolve the end game, all that was left to do was reincarnate. adding epic past lives and Iconics just kept the treadmill going with not much else to do. Ottos to help the process along as you eventually get tired of re-running the same content and realize you still have 50 more past lives to go.

whenever the devs tweak or add to the difficulties upwards, there is usually an uproar from the community. not every player agrees with these changes and how the challenge is implemented, but the pendulum often swings widely from left to right based on player feedback. the problem we have been having is not changing Korthos, although not against it if it means improvement, so that new players understand game mechanics. the problem is the player base not willing to adjust to what they have been used to for the past few years and the devs not updating old content as character power grows. pre-MOTU, players knew their place, as in they knew which difficulty setting was where they really belonged and stayed with it. the option to challenge themselves was there if they wanted to. there was a way to go up, unlike now where elite players cant do that. technically, they can with Legendary content, but many cant agree on the challenge level. pre-MOTU, DDO was very group encouraged. since EDs, players wanting to be more self reliant and enhancement changes that provide a lot of defense, dps and self healing the grouping encouraged atmosphere has dwindled.

the solution to fix these problems with the power gap is right in front of us. the elephant is standing in the middle of the room.

1. difficulties need to be redesigned across the board so players will stick to the setting that they are more comfortable with and have the option of going upwards. the gap is nonexistent than when all the "2s" are playing with "2s" and all the "8s" are playing with "8s". this would involve decentivizing the rewards or making them close together. we saw this with EGH and it worked.

2. with level 30 here and no plan I am aware of increasing the cap, than stats, gear, saves, etc, etc should be capped. sit down and figure out max potential in each level range and adjust quests accordingly per difficulty. big job I know. one I highly doubt would ever happen, but could be fun for those that like to play around with numbers. still could be possible with new content.

3. ?

4. the in betweens just fall into place.

this most likely would never happen with the player base the way it is. it would have to be slow and small changes for players to get used to it. any changes or adjustments that have been done fairly recently and in the future just causes a lot of debate and problems finding the power balance as long as new/casual players are incentivized/encouraged to play in the same difficulty as experienced/elite players.

[Astoroth]

In DDO a tremendous power gap exists between newer and casual players and those that have been playing for a long time or concentrate on optimizing their character. This is a statement most realize and one that many will agree with. What I don’t think people understand is just how wide that gap really is.

The problem we currently have with the game is that many other people that think they are a 6, are actually a 2. People do not realize how big the gap is because their DPS is 300, and the think that is pretty good. In their wildest dreams they think they could maybe hit 500. They have no idea how low that is when compared to higher end characters. They may even have a couple heroic and epic past lives and a couple pieces of raid gear and think they are a higher end character.

The reason you have constant debate about game difficulty is because these players ranging between 200 and 5000 DPS are all running the same quests, and sometimes together. Turbine has some idea of the gap. That is why different quest difficulties exist.

I do not have an easy fix to make everyone happy. But I think realizing how different the power levels are can at least give people a better understanding of where an opposing view point is coming from. In the end we all just want to have fun. Different quest difficulty levels are a good way to get there. We just need to help Turbine realize how different a casual difficulty and elite difficulty should be.

Another I'm so powerful the game is over/doomed post. The game wasn't over when the level cap was 10, and people had to roll new toons, and its not over now.

If your character is done and the game is easy for it, its time to roll an alt if you don't enjoy having the game be so easy. Clearly turbine cant balance the game for the top end and still have it be playable for the low end, nor should they really even try to deform the game to fit either extreme end of their player base. But that's why they give you new character slots with premium, vip and the various expansion packs. Clearly its not feasible for them to continually ratchet up the difficultly on existing content. If you don't enjoy stomping through it on a powerful character the solution is available to you.

[nokowi]

DDO was 4 years old at F2P release. It's 10 years old now. There's a big difference.

I didn't look at your join date for my comments. I'm just completely disagreeing with the idea that 98% of players master this game in 6 months. I think you missed the mark by a mile. Most players don't master a single class in 6 months.

Doom and Gloom has existed since before FTP release.

The quality of the game, and its ability to generate $ will determine if DDO lasts for 10 years or 20 years.

Unless you have some secret insider info about the profitability of DDO, you should probably not be telling the rest of us when the game will end.

I would advise new players that DDO is one of the best games out there, and well worst their time investment (however long that is).

[Brac]

Another I'm so powerful the game is over/doomed post. The game wasn't over when the level cap was 10, and people had to roll new toons, and its not over now.

If your character is done and the game is easy for it, its time to roll an alt if you don't enjoy having the game be so easy. Clearly turbine cant balance the game for the top end and still have it be playable for the low end, nor should they really even try to deform the game to fit either extreme end of their player base. But that's why they give you new character slots with premium, vip and the various expansion packs. Clearly its not feasible for them to continually ratchet up the difficultly on existing content. If you don't enjoy stomping through it on a powerful character the solution is available to you.

You quoted my original post and then had a rant that had nothing to do with it. Maybe you should read my OP. Not sure at what point you just jumped to your conclusion but you should read it all.

[HAL]

I also think it needs to be addressed that the “top end” players are not a small portion of the player base like some would lead you to believe. People like to put “elite players” on a pedestal and act like there are only a handful of people playing at this level and the game should not cater to them. If the few players quit it is no loss. I can tell you that the majority of players I know are close to my power level or above it. I am not even triple completionist and many are. I am a VIP, always have been, and I have purchased multiple Otto’s boxes, Supreme Tomes, XP Pots, Mana Pots, additional Turbine points, etc. I am an ideal customer for Turbine and so are many of the players I run with. We are not a small group.


I entered the quest late and the other two people, including the party leader, were perched on a ledge and trying to focus fire mobs coming out of a portal. I walked up and cleared all of the mobs in less than 5 seconds. I then continued to the next portal and cleared all of the mobs in 5 seconds again. The two people had been focus firing on a single mob for about a minute before I came in and they had 1 kill. The party leader was in shock and asked what insta-kill I was using to so this. I told him it wasn’t, just DPS. He couldn’t believe it at first. I also was not using a LGS, so that was not an explanation. By the end of the series I averaged 150 kills and the next closest out of a filled group was 20, with the other 4 people in single digits.

I rearranged two parts of your post to make a point. You state that players with characters like the one you mention are not a small portion of the player base. Yet somehow you ended up in a LE party where you were the only such player. And clearly these players not only weren't playing a "top end" character, but they have never played one based on your report of their reactions.

I can't make any statements of the composition of the player base - I haven't played with all players on all servers and Turbine isn't telling.

[Warrax23]

Another I'm so powerful the game is over/doomed post. The game wasn't over when the level cap was 10, and people had to roll new toons, and its not over now.

If your character is done and the game is easy for it, its time to roll an alt if you don't enjoy having the game be so easy. Clearly turbine cant balance the game for the top end and still have it be playable for the low end, nor should they really even try to deform the game to fit either extreme end of their player base. But that's why they give you new character slots with premium, vip and the various expansion packs. Clearly its not feasible for them to continually ratchet up the difficultly on existing content. If you don't enjoy stomping through it on a powerful character the solution is available to you.

Just because someone or a group identify a problem, does not mean it's a doom thread. I find little in here that's say much about OMG the game is dead, save for a couple of the trolls. What I see is, Hey this is a problem, it needs to be addressed for the for the betterment (Possible) of the game. I'm pretty sure the Dev's aren't trying to kill the game, it's just sometimes, and I believe this to be the case right now, there just do not play the game at the higher (eliteish) levels and therefor REACT, and well... they have a tendency to go WAY to far the opposite direction instead of scaling it back a little. Like LGS caster sticks, Super OP, Useless..... no scaling just one extreme to the other.

SO with all of that being said, I think the OP had a general idea of a problem. I'm sure those folks who were in that quest may actually STILL be in that quest if he didn't show up. He wasn't being a jerk to them, he was simply doing the quest. His char definitely seemed to have a power advantage over the others, but he did not say he zerged ahead and left them all to rot.

Just my take
-Mark

[HAL]

I spend a lot of time crafting. Helping out others in the guild level their characters. And I spend some time on Wayfinder. But I don't use any Xp potions or Otto's boxes either. I'm sure by now I could have had X3 completionist on 1 character if I ignored everyone within the guild and just concentrated on only myself but I'm not like that. Someone says in guild chat I'm running this or that and I reply hey want some company? The people in guild is so spaced apart that there is only really 3 of us that has characters within questing range of each others main character. I can log into my level 29 ranger with the intentions of getting to 30 but then a guild member who is level 7 or 13 will log in and I will log into a alternate that is within their range and run with them. I'm just here to have fun and one of my characters will eventually reach completionist.


Edited because I should note that I am what most would call a "Flower Sniffer" I try to complete all the optionals in a quest, even ransack. And because I craft I will go out of the way to obtain collectables.

This is similar to how I play also. Except I only have 2 characters on their second lives and I don't care at all about getting any type of completionist. I just enjoy playing the game with a variety of different characters and a variety of people.

[undercover69]

But pretending to help isn’t fun for players.


The truth has been spoken.

If people had any idea how much of a killjoy this is. This is a disease that kills new players left and right.

[Brac]

I rearranged two parts of your post to make a point. You state that players with characters like the one you mention are not a small portion of the player base. Yet somehow you ended up in a LE party where you were the only such player. And clearly these players not only weren't playing a "top end" character, but they have never played one based on your report of their reactions.

I can't make any statements of the composition of the player base - I haven't played with all players on all servers and Turbine isn't telling.

Correct. I am not claiming that players like me are 70% of the population or anything like that but people with moderatly powerful characters often get characterized as basement dwelling power gamers, and there are five of them, so who cares.

To the people I grouped with in that quest series my power level was much greater then theirs. But my character is not in the top 1% like some are portraying. I am more in the top 30%. That is what I am trying to get across. It is not a handful of people that can solo EE. There are many of us. As part of this 30% it is frustrating to have people preach that our game experience does not matter because it is a few people. We represent a larger portion then we get credit for.

[KoobTheProud]

The truth has been spoken.

If people had any idea how much of a killjoy this is. This is a disease that kills new players left and right.

Not being able to really experience the lower level game in a party is also a huge killjoy. The first party I joined after I came back in 2009 was at about level 7. It was The Pit. OMG... I had no idea what was going on for most of the run and when we completed it I had maybe made two jumps in my first run through of the instance. The party just ripped through and did the minimum required, really it was 2 players doing most of the work while the rest of us tried to master Mario and listened in to the pros.

Afterwards I asked if we could run it again so I could learn all the jumps and switches and so forth and the guys who had completed it for us just laughed and said they'd run it again but not to teach the thing, just to finish it as fast as they could.

I got another group in there a couple of days later and had watched a couple of videos of completions so I was almost able to keep up this time but there were other people in the party who were in the same situation I was in a couple of days earlier and I wound up thinking what a horrible group experience the place was. It was almost like you needed to do it with friends or it was going to make you miserable by the end.

This is a flower sniffer's rant but it's important because everybody complains about how simple the quests are now, with straight line speed runs easily achievable. That's not because the devs don't have the resources to do better quests. It's because the community emphasizes speed runs and fast loot and so we all get what we're asking for and then a lot of us complain about it because although it's what we're asking for it's really a lot less fun than it should be.

If you're designing a quest to allow vets and newer players to play together the last thing you want to do is create a Pit-like experience for the new players. So you make the quest really simple with long straight corridors and very few branches and you count on the new players to at least be able to keep the vets in sight as everybody whizzes through the content at light-speed.

Who needs fun when you can tick a number up and get some loot instead?

[HAL]

Okay, I hate to nitpick on a choice of words, but... "Flavor" toons do work well. They are simply characters. I don't understand why it is so prevalent on the forums to split up characters into the categories of "normal characters" and "flavor characters". In actuality, the "flavor characters" are the "normal characters". The practically-perfect-in-every-way min-maxed characters are ABnormal.

When most players roll up their characters in this game, they are building "studious ice sorcerers" or "wise old monk spiritualists" or "protective dwarf fighter bodyguards" or whatever it is that they are imagining up. It isn't *regular* to roll up characters wherein every aspect of the character is determined by a DPS calculator with all the imagination of a pet rock. People who think of "math" as a character concept are not normal. Most people don't look at a video game and/or an rpg and think about how fun it'll be calculating the standard deviation for a sample of several dozen 5-minute DPS tests comparing the difference between an 11/9 class-split and a 12/8 class split. And this is coming from someone with a background in statistics.

Naturally, discussions here are going to have more people who are really into dissecting what's going on "under the hood" of the game. But can we acknowledge that these forums are like opposite world and it can possibly alienate new players reading them to get the impression that "Calculon Toons" are the expected standard?

It's no wonder new player retention is brushed off around here all the time. This is a place where the placement of +2 ability points on gnomes in Int vs. Wisdom is treated with the gravity of an existential crisis...

Very nice post.

[Holleyz]

In summary to all the posts 'blah blah blah get PLs you aren't as good a player etc'. First, I am an excellent player. I have said many times, you learn all you need to know about this game in 2 months. This game is not a hard CPU game. Go play something like Eve. That is hard. This is easy. There is almost no player skill involved that any experienced gamer does not have. I challenge any of you mini-Thors to start a perma death group with me first life characters no twink gear and we'll see who lives longest. NO? Don't want to do that right? Because it is not about ANYTHING you claim. You are not uber. You have simply been playing for years and have accumulated past lives. Let's once again knock down these straw man arguments that are always used...

1. Veterans have unique builds! Wrong. They have copied the FotM builds from the forums. Everyone uses the same set of builds. OK, maybe a brand new player might get trapped into a premade junk build that Turbine offers you, but anyone who goes to the forums uses the same set of builds. You have not invented anything great build wise. Another part of this is that virtually EVERY build does the exact same thing, they just differ in how they do it. They are all high DPS, self healing , high defense builds. They are all the same cookie cutter sorry to burst your ego bubble.

2. Past lives don't matter! Wrong. Aprox...30% damage reduction, 25% elemental resistance, +80 HPs, +70 AC, +12 DMG to every hit, huge boosts to DCs and SP etc etc. You don't think all this adding up is huge? Of course it is. If it isn't then again, come play perma death with me as a first life character.

3. I am so skilled I dominate groups! Wrong. You have 5 years of accumulated gear. All those 1% players have epic rings of spell storing. How did they get those? Hmmm.... Loads of duped items, loads of legit items, yes, your forum copied build plays better than someone using loot gen stuff. Yet you still whine and complain and want loot gen nerfed!

4. You are not really interested in balancing this game. You are not interested in competitive game play. You want to be mini-Thors. At least some of you have admitted it here. Others cling to the argument, oh just challenge my mini-Thor! I and ever DM who has ever run a D&D campaign will tell you there is NO way to sustain a monty haul campaign. If you want to play a min-Thor there are games for this - League of Legends might be more you style. D&D has always been a group game. In the OP example there is one player showing off and 5 people having a miserable time then the OP comes on here and brags about how great he is, which of course he isn't, he has just collected more stuff.

D&D characters were never meant to have this much power. Since this 1% have no interest in actually playing a group game please consider (talking to the Devs here) making a DDO Classic Server where these power abuses do not occur, where you have no past lives and get one ED with no twists. Let's see then who plays this game. The clamoring mini-Thors who want moar power to benefit only themselves or those interesting in a dynamic grouping experience where you need to work together to succeed.

This game has been hijacked by the players who post YouTube completions videos which scream look at me! look at me! I am awesomesauce validate my ego pleeeeeeease!!!! However the vast majority of players I have ever met in game are not like the OP, they are people who have had the most fun when completing a tough quest that has pushed our group to the max. DDO needs to start addressing this group of players and let the mini-Thors go. They are going to quit anyway because there is nothing you can do to challenge them in a monty haul campaign.

I have read several of your posts. What I am picking up on is that you think you should have right now instantly what has taken others years and hard work to obtain. You don't want to put in the time and effort to reach their level but instead you want the developers to knock everyone down to your level. I'm sure in due time if you stick with this game and get a few past lives your mind will change.

[FranOhmsford]

Correct. I am not claiming that players like me are 70% of the population or anything like that but people with moderatly powerful characters often get characterized as basement dwelling power gamers, and there are five of them, so who cares.

To the people I grouped with in that quest series my power level was much greater then theirs. But my character is not in the top 1% like some are portraying. I am more in the top 30%. That is what I am trying to get across. It is not a handful of people that can solo EE. There are many of us. As part of this 30% it is frustrating to have people preach that our game experience does not matter because it is a few people. We represent a larger portion then we get credit for.

30%?

Even if you're talking strictly about players who've hit Lvl 30 at least once that's a very high number - I'd say it's more like 10-15%.

Now add in all the Players who never got to Lvl 30!

THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE MEAN WHEN THEY CALL YOU THE 1%!

YOU ARE THE 1%!


P.S. If you're in the top 30% as you say then you're at least a 7/10 player NOT a 6/10 as you claimed earlier!

I consider myself a 5/10 - Bang average!

Is there a big gap between a 7/10 and a 5/10 - Yes of course there is - It's not like there's only 10 players playing DDO, There's thousands!
But to categorise people as a 2/10 when they've actually reached Cap is a gross overstatement - Just getting that far makes them at least a 4-5!
And
Let's say there's 200 Players on Cannith who currently play End-Game content:
6 will be 4/10 players who've somehow managed to get to cap {probably with a lot of help}
100 of those will be 5/10 players who will probably TR or ER pretty quick.
50 will be 6/10 players - Now we're getting into the Players who may stick around for a while at End-Game
25 will be 7/10 players - And back to people who will likely TR or ER soon because the End-Game isn't big enough yet for them to stick around at it.
12 will be 8/10 players - These will definitely ER again - They can run End-Game as easily at 25-29 as they can at 30 so why not.
6 will be 9/10 players - Chances are these will disappear for months on end, come back to run a few Raids then vanish again because they've already completed the Grind and there's nothing keeping them in DDO.
3 will be 10/10 players - The best of the best and sticking around because of the people they know in game - Most players won't even know they're online because they don't interact with them.

Now let's change those scores to 1/100.

And those 100 5/10 players are staggered over 50-59% - There's still a big difference between the guy at 50% and the guy at 59%!
The Six 4/10 players will all be around 46-49%ers - They won't be 40%ers!
The 9/10 and 10/10 crowd won't be 90-99% and 100% - They'll be 90-95% and 96-99% - I doubt anyone would claim to be perfect at this game!?!

[Brac]

30%?

Even if you're talking strictly about players who've hit Lvl 30 at least once that's a very high number - I'd say it's more like 10-15%.

Now add in all the Players who never got to Lvl 30!

THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE MEAN WHEN THEY CALL YOU THE 1%!

YOU ARE THE 1%!


P.S. If you're in the top 30% as you say then you're at least a 7/10 player NOT a 6/10 as you claimed earlier!

I consider myself a 5/10 - Bang average!

Is there a big gap between a 7/10 and a 5/10 - Yes of course there is - It's not like there's only 10 players playing DDO, There's thousands!
But to categorise people as a 2/10 when they've actually reached Cap is a gross overstatement - Just getting that far makes them at least a 4-5!
And
Let's say there's 200 Players on Cannith who play End-Game content:
6 will be 4/10 players who've somehow managed to get to cap {probably with a lot of help}
100 of those will be 5/10 players
50 will be 6/10 players
25 will be 7/10 players
12 will be 8/10 players
6 will be 9/10 players
3 will be 10/10 players.

Now let's change those scores to 1/100.

And those 100 5/10 players are staggered over 50-59% - There's still a big difference between the guy at 50% and the guy at 59%!
The Six 4/10 players will all be around 46-49%ers - They won't be 40%ers!
The 9/10 and 10/10 crowd won't be 90-99% and 100% - They'll be 90-95% and 96-99% - I doubt anyone would claim to be perfect at this game!?!

It is clear that 30% was a number pulled out of thin air for illustrative purposes. Anyone can see that. But your response is completely random. You think it is a very small percentage of people that have hit level 30 ever?

It was also clear with my self rating that I was putting myself at a 6 for DPS. I even provided a chart at another posters request.

I don't really know how to respond to you because you post as someone that has never played the game. Your perspective is very unusual and you always try to act as if you represent the majority of the player base.

My posts come from my experiences playing the game. When I play it is at levels 20-30. The groups I am in do not fail quests and often run EE because anything less posses zero challenge. I am not considered an elite player on Ghallanda. I am one of many decent players that when we join the group you know we will do our job. When I pug on Ghallanda we take the first five to hi lt the LFM, and honestly only a couple players stand out as elite. The rest of us are just part of the crowd.

Since the majority of us are decent it is the underpowered characters that stand out. From my game experience it is hard to believe that most players are underpowered and I just get into lucky pugs.

You score yourself as average, that seems to be part of the problem. You are one of these 2's that I describe that thinks they are a 6. I am sorry if my thread upset you by opening your eyes. Just keep having fun playing the game and realize what characters can be capable of.

[Marshal_Lannes]

I have read several of your posts. What I am picking up on is that you think you should have right now instantly what has taken others years and hard work to obtain. You don't want to put in the time and effort to reach their level but instead you want the developers to knock everyone down to your level. I'm sure in due time if you stick with this game and get a few past lives your mind will change.

No, no and no.

First, as people have pointed out before and in this post any game that requires you to play for years to get to end game is dead. MMOs work on the assumption that in 6 months time you will be at cap/fully decked out with almost max gear and able to play the hardest content in the game. You will attract barely any new players if you tell them they need to play years to get to max power level.

Second, player level in this game, mostly thru past lives, is so outrageously imbalanced that the Devs can no longer make challenging content. Vet players cannot take a 28pt build and crush content. This is a fallacy I have already pointed out and a straw man. It is the 50 past life min-Thors that have broken game balance. They jealously horde their past lives claiming (hard work! hard work!) they earned them (when really they just had no end game and that was the only thing they had to do) and refuse to allow equipment to evolve. As was also pointed out here, DDO is one of the few games where self entitled players seem to feel their equipment can/should never be invalidated. THAT is the end game in most MMOs! New content that provides new equipment (read better)

Third, I have no desire to be a mini-Thor. There are games that offer that. I play them once in a while when I'm buzzed for the rush. Yes its fun to smash everything once in a while. This is not what D&D has ever been about though. I have advocated massive nerfs to player power. Some of you say no one would play on a DDO Classic Server? Well let's see. Many people want a challanging game that advocates group play. This game will NEVER challenge the mini-Thors. Please stop catering to them!

In summary - there is a reason no MMO has ever copied DDO's TR mechanic. They have seen it is destructive to the game overall, completely kills balance, ruins the game for new players (when they are grouped with a min-Thor) and is self defeating since you can never challenge the players with 50 past lives.


Sam1313 right on, PM your PD group details/times meeting etc.

[HAL]

Correct. I am not claiming that players like me are 70% of the population or anything like that but people with moderatly powerful characters often get characterized as basement dwelling power gamers, and there are five of them, so who cares.

To the people I grouped with in that quest series my power level was much greater then theirs. But my character is not in the top 1% like some are portraying. I am more in the top 30%. That is what I am trying to get across. It is not a handful of people that can solo EE. There are many of us. As part of this 30% it is frustrating to have people preach that our game experience does not matter because it is a few people. We represent a larger portion then we get credit for.

I in no way believe that all or even most powergamers are basement dwellers. However I am not prepared to agree that people "who can solo EE" (or any other definition of "elite" players) make up even 30% of DDO players. My personal opinion, based upon my POV of the game, is that this group is far smaller.

I would have to agree, however, that the group must provide a fair amount of DDO's income to have as much influence on the game as it does. But I believe that the group is so small that this influence is not healthy for DDO as it doesn't allow for a lessening of the power gap but actively promotes it, which will ultimately kill the game faster than necessitated by old age alone.

[Holleyz]

snipped
You score yourself as average, that seems to be part of the problem. You are one of these 2's that I describe that thinks they are a 6. I am sorry if my thread upset you by opening your eyes. Just keep having fun playing the game and realize what characters can be capable of.
See everything in your post was going well until you got to this part. This right here just killed it. THIS is the problem that irritates the majority of players, I truly believe that this is what Marshall is trying to point out. YOU think your so uber. You have never ran with Fran, I have he's a great player. He is a 7 in my book but people like you just get under my skin.

[Holleyz]

No, no and no.

First, as people have pointed out before and in this post any game that requires you to play for years to get to end game is dead. MMOs work on the assumption that in 6 months time you will be at cap/fully decked out with almost max gear and able to play the hardest content in the game. You will attract barely any new players if you tell them they need to play years to get to max power level.

Second, player level in this game, mostly thru past lives, is so outrageously imbalanced that the Devs can no longer make challenging content. Vet players cannot take a 28pt build and crush content. This is a fallacy I have already pointed out and a straw man. It is the 50 past life min-Thors that have broken game balance. They jealously horde their past lives claiming (hard work! hard work!) they earned them (when really they just had no end game and that was the only thing they had to do) and refuse to allow equipment to evolve. As was also pointed out here, DDO is one of the few games where self entitled players seem to feel their equipment can/should never be invalidated. THAT is the end game in most MMOs! New content that provides new equipment (read better)

Third, I have no desire to be a mini-Thor. There are games that offer that. I play them once in a while when I'm buzzed for the rush. Yes its fun to smash everything once in a while. This is not what D&D has ever been about though. I have advocated massive nerfs to player power. Some of you say no one would play on a DDO Classic Server? Well let's see. Many people want a challanging game that advocates group play. This game will NEVER challenge the mini-Thors. Please stop catering to them!

In summary - there is a reason no MMO has ever copied DDO's TR mechanic. They have seen it is destructive to the game overall, completely kills balance, ruins the game for new players (when they are grouped with a min-Thor) and is self defeating since you can never challenge the players with 50 past lives.


Sam1313 right on, PM your PD group details/times meeting etc.

my old guild leader tried to point this out several times on the forums. What he was told was this: This is NOT D&D this is DDO. I know its sad but that's what keeps getting thrown up in our faces when we ask for the old school must group and work together as one to complete the quests.

[Holleyz]

I in no way believe that all or even most powergamers are basement dwellers. However I am not prepared to agree that people "who can solo EE" (or any other definition of "elite" players) make up even 30% of DDO players. My personal opinion, based upon my POV of the game, is that this group is far smaller.

I would have to agree, however, that the group must provide a fair amount of DDO's income to have as much influence on the game as it does. But I believe that the group is so small that this influence is not healthy for DDO as it doesn't allow for a lessening of the power gap but actively promotes it, which will ultimately kill the game faster than necessitated by old age alone.

+1 to your rep. well said. For instance when the discussion of Monster Champions and AA Rangers was going on you can now tell that the development team only listened to these small group of self proclaimed Uber players.

[FranOhmsford]

You score yourself as average, that seems to be part of the problem. You are one of these 2's that I describe that thinks they are a 6. I am sorry if my thread upset you by opening your eyes. Just keep having fun playing the game and realize what characters can be capable of.

And now this whole thread becomes clear as simply an attempt to put other players in their places!

A 2/10 does NOT make it to Cap!

A 2/10 Certainly does NOT make it to Cap DOZENS of times over many alts!

A 2/10 isn't capable of soloing 90% of Heroic Quests on E-BB!

You state that you run in a clique with the same players and mainly in Groups - DDO is pretty easy in a decent {note I said decent not good - decent as in ok} Group even at the highest levels.
ESPECIALLY if you know how the others in the Group play and work together!

And I've run plenty of EEs now and even had the high kill count a couple of times so trust me when I say there's people playing EEs who aren't even at my Level NEVER MIND YOURS!
If I'm a 2/10 as you say then what are they?


What I keep saying is that the vast majority of players taking up DDO will never even REACH Epics!
You're the 1% because I'm counting EVERY Player who's ever taken up the game!
You're only counting those in Epics! And even then you're vastly underestimating the number of players who've reached Epics - If you're running mainly EEs you're not even seeing 20% of the total Epic Players out there!


There's lots of people playing DDO who are better than me - I've never shirked from that fact!
But I'm nowhere near as bad as some people on these forums and elsewhere like to make out {I don't like using that term - Bad - either because it's derogatory towards those who aren't yet at my level but I see it bandied around all the time by Elitists!}.


It's all well and good being humble and knocking your own rating down - I'm sure we all do that BUT you're not being humble in this thread! You're being derogatory to those who aren't at your level!
You didn't say those who thought they were a 6/10 were more like a 5/10 you dropped them to a 2/10 {which is quite frankly ludicrous for anyone who's even made it into Epics!}.

You've also changed the parameters in this latest post - Going from EE Amrath {Lvl 32 End-Game Quests} to just plain EEs! Meanwhile I've seen entire party wipes in EE Small Problem with known good players in the Group so there's plenty of people out there who are a 2/10 according to you!
Meanwhile those who haven't even reached Epics yet - What are they? 1/10? 0/10? They may be doing perfectly fine in Heroics, they may be happy in Heroics for now and not worried about getting to 20 but to you they're NOTHING!

[Holleyz]

And now this whole thread becomes clear as simply an attempt to put other players in their places!

A 2/10 does NOT make it to Cap!

A 2/10 Certainly does NOT make it to Cap DOZENS of times over many alts!

A 2/10 isn't capable of soloing 90% of Heroic Quests on E-BB!

You state that you run in a clique with the same players and mainly in Groups - DDO is pretty easy in a decent {note I said decent not good - decent as in ok} Group even at the highest levels.
ESPECIALLY if you know how the others in the Group play and work together!

And I've run plenty of EEs now and even had the high kill count a couple of times so trust me when I say there's people playing EEs who aren't even at my Level NEVER MIND YOURS!
If I'm a 2/10 as you say then what are they?


What I keep saying is that the vast majority of players taking up DDO will never even REACH Epics!
You're the 1% because I'm counting EVERY Player who's ever taken up the game!
You're only counting those in Epics! And even then you're vastly underestimating the number of players who've reached Epics - If you're running mainly EEs you're not even seeing 20% of the total Epic Players out there!


There's lots of people playing DDO who are better than me - I've never shirked from that fact!
But I'm nowhere near as bad as some people on these forums and elsewhere like to make out {I don't like using that term - Bad - either because it's derogatory towards those who aren't yet at my level but I see it bandied around all the time by Elitists!}.


It's all well and good being humble and knocking your own rating down - I'm sure we all do that BUT you're not being humble in this thread! You're being derogatory to those who aren't at your level!
You didn't say those who thought they were a 6/10 were more like a 5/10 you dropped them to a 2/10 {which is quite frankly ludicrous for anyone who's even made it into Epics!}.

You've also changed the parameters in this latest post - Going from EE Amrath {Lvl 32 End-Game Quests} to just plain EEs! Meanwhile I've seen entire party wipes in EE Small Problem with known good players in the Group so there's plenty of people out there who are a 2/10 according to you!
Meanwhile those who haven't even reached Epics yet - What are they? 1/10? 0/10? They may be doing perfectly fine in Heroics, they may be happy in Heroics for now and not worried about getting to 20 but to you they're NOTHING!

Well said. I've been playing off and on since pre MOTU when the cap was 16. lost my account password created this one. I have YET to get one character to Epic. My highest level character is Holleyz on Cannith. She is level 18. So to Mr Brac I am 1/10. Maybe I am? I do still die in easy quests but that's due from various things like my kitty walking across my keyboard while I am trying to play :)

[Qezuzu]

OP, you are a good example of why past lives need to be removed for the good of the game. Thank you for your example! As you point out, you were a detrement to the fun of your entire group. From your description people just stopped playing and took on the role of Varsity Cheerleaders to watch you solo the quest and pick up their loot. This is obviously not good for the game. Clearly no one wants to play in this environment except other 1% players. No one wants to play a game where their characters are not relevant.

This aberration of TR power is not a creep - it is a chasm that eventually needs to be bridged.

I continue to urge the creation of a DDO Classic Server where these mini-Thor's are not allowed to dominate game play.

I invite you to do some math and see how much of an impact past lives actually have on how strong a character is. It's not like the bonuses are hidden, we know exactly what they do.

Most of what OP is talking about, the power gap between new players and vets, is because meta knowledge. No amount of past lives allows you to go from beating on an EE mob for a minute and it not dying, to mowing down a group of them in five seconds.

Meta knowledge, and also gear, utterly eclipses the bonuses from past lives.

[Brac]

snipped
See everything in your post was going well until you got to this part. This right here just killed it. THIS is the problem that irritates the majority of players, I truly believe that this is what Marshall is trying to point out. YOU think your so uber. You have never ran with Fran, I have he's a great player. He is a 7 in my book but people like you just get under my skin.


And now this whole thread becomes clear as simply an attempt to put other players in their places!

A 2/10 does NOT make it to Cap!

A 2/10 Certainly does NOT make it to Cap DOZENS of times over many alts!

A 2/10 isn't capable of soloing 90% of Heroic Quests on E-BB!

You state that you run in a clique with the same players and mainly in Groups - DDO is pretty easy in a decent {note I said decent not good - decent as in ok} Group even at the highest levels.
ESPECIALLY if you know how the others in the Group play and work together!

And I've run plenty of EEs now and even had the high kill count a couple of times so trust me when I say there's people playing EEs who aren't even at my Level NEVER MIND YOURS!
If I'm a 2/10 as you say then what are they?


What I keep saying is that the vast majority of players taking up DDO will never even REACH Epics!
You're the 1% because I'm counting EVERY Player who's ever taken up the game!
You're only counting those in Epics! And even then you're vastly underestimating the number of players who've reached Epics - If you're running mainly EEs you're not even seeing 20% of the total Epic Players out there!


There's lots of people playing DDO who are better than me - I've never shirked from that fact!
But I'm nowhere near as bad as some people on these forums and elsewhere like to make out {I don't like using that term - Bad - either because it's derogatory towards those who aren't yet at my level but I see it bandied around all the time by Elitists!}.


It's all well and good being humble and knocking your own rating down - I'm sure we all do that BUT you're not being humble in this thread! You're being derogatory to those who aren't at your level!
You didn't say those who thought they were a 6/10 were more like a 5/10 you dropped them to a 2/10 {which is quite frankly ludicrous for anyone who's even made it into Epics!}.

You've also changed the parameters in this latest post - Going from EE Amrath {Lvl 32 End-Game Quests} to just plain EEs! Meanwhile I've seen entire party wipes in EE Small Problem with known good players in the Group so there's plenty of people out there who are a 2/10 according to you!
Meanwhile those who haven't even reached Epics yet - What are they? 1/10? 0/10? They may be doing perfectly fine in Heroics, they may be happy in Heroics for now and not worried about getting to 20 but to you they're NOTHING!


Well said. I've been playing off and on since pre MOTU when the cap was 16. lost my account password created this one. I have YET to get one character to Epic. My highest level character is Holleyz on Cannith. She is level 18. So to Mr Brac I am 1/10. Maybe I am? I do still die in easy quests but that's due from various things like my kitty walking across my keyboard while I am trying to play :)

You two are so busy trying to cause trouble and argue that you don't even read the original post. At no time did myself or anyone else bring up player skill in the ratings we were referring to. Please look back and you will even see the scale that I am referring to. The rating we are discussing is a DPS rating. It has nothing to do with skill of the actual player. If you go back and read I even pointed that out early on.

When I referred to Fran as a 2 that thinks he is a 6 I was clearly referring to him being someone that does a couple hundred in DPS and thinks he is in the middle of the scale, not realizing the scale goes much higher then he can imagine. And yes, people with low DPS that are 2's are running epic quests. Being able to open a quest does not increase your DPS. This has been the topic of conversation all along. You could have someone that has a play skill level of 10 and still has an underpowered character that is a DPS level of 2.

Fran's ridiculous numbers of counting every player that has ever played DDO as to the total number of players that will not reach 30 is senseless. Not only is this not on topic at all but I don't think a player that tries the game for a week and quits is relevant in any conversation besides a retention conversation for Turbine. I really don't see how it enters my discussion about DPS and the power gap.

You can hate me because you think I am uber, you can hate me because my attitude irks you, you can hate me for any number of reasons, but I do ask, if you are going to reply in my threads, please read the thread first and have an appropriate response to the topic. If you just want to attack me off topic feel free to send a PM.

[Warrax23]

You two are so busy trying to cause trouble and argue that you don't even read the original post. At no time did myself or anyone else bring up player skill in the ratings we were referring to. Please look back and you will even see the scale that I am referring to. The rating we are discussing is a DPS rating. It has nothing to do with skill of the actual player. If you go back and read I even pointed that out early on.

When I referred to Fran as a 2 that thinks he is a 6 I was clearly referring to him being someone that does a couple hundred in DPS and thinks he is in the middle of the scale, not realizing the scale goes much higher then he can imagine. And yes, people with low DPS that are 2's are running epic quests. Being able to open a quest does not increase your DPS. This has been the topic of conversation all along. You could have someone that has a play skill level of 10 and still has an underpowered character that is a DPS level of 2.

Fran's ridiculous numbers of counting every player that has ever played DDO as to the total number of players that will not reach 30 is senseless. Not only is this not on topic at all but I don't think a player that tries the game for a week and quits is relevant in any conversation besides a retention conversation for Turbine. I really don't see how it enters my discussion about DPS and the power gap.

You can hate me because you think I am uber, you can hate me because my attitude irks you, you can hate me for any number of reasons, but I do ask, if you are going to reply in my threads, please read the thread first and have an appropriate response to the topic. If you just want to attack me off topic feel free to send a PM.

LoL, yeah some folks on here (I'm sure I'm guilty of it too) just read a sentence or two and get VERY upset and start face rolling the keyboard not really staying on topic. However I agree with your OP, and I think that Fran just may have misunderstood. It happens. Anyway I think what your saying is pretty true, I know myself I was a really good player in the old days, but this game has rolled down hill long enough it's really not a game about skill, it's about proper builds, and gear. Past Lives and ED's included in proper builds. I try to build non cookie cutter toons, but Turbine is HELL bent on taking that away from us. That's why pure classes are emerging as stronger and stronger. Not saying that it's a bad thing to make a class REALLY good at 1 thing, but they are failing to grasp the 1 thing part. I had a toon that was well in the real of 6-7 that had amazing self healing, but that was recently nerfed into the stone age, so much so I actually need a cleric with me, ya know that class people rarely play... or when they do they play them as DC casters and don't heal? After the nerf he still did the dps, but couldn't stay in a battle in EE... EH still god like, but I try hard to build my toons to be EE capable since that's generally what I "try' to run for the BB and Saga's. (Which I hate doing but it's the best way to get XP atm) Also all of this nonsense has really killed the GUILD vibe of the game. :( Least for me..

[Hobgoblin]

You can hate me because you think I am uber, you can hate me because my attitude irks you, you can hate me for any number of reasons, but I do ask, if you are going to reply in my threads, please read the thread first and have an appropriate response to the topic. If you just want to attack me off topic feel free to send a PM.

i hate you cause you smell funny!

Hey, laser lips, your mama was a snow blower!

on topic - part of it is perception.

I consider myself a 2 in terms of dps - but that is more because of lack of focus

i have most gear i simply dont have the mindset to solo raids.

so i think that part of is player skill, not just dps output.

however, you cant measure skill, especially with the ddo store involved!

interesting topic that i have been following!

end derail.

[-Avalon-]

Some of you say no one would play on a DDO Classic Server? Well let's see.

What's a 'DDO Classic Server'? I've tried to run a 1st/2nd edition guild before, wish more were interested in doing it. Make the game challenging on our own, ya know?

[Elfishski]

I invite you to do some math and see how much of an impact past lives actually have on how strong a character is. It's not like the bonuses are hidden, we know exactly what they do.

Most of what OP is talking about, the power gap between new players and vets, is because meta knowledge. No amount of past lives allows you to go from beating on an EE mob for a minute and it not dying, to mowing down a group of them in five seconds.

Meta knowledge, and also gear, utterly eclipses the bonuses from past lives.

I think both of you are right...

The gap in DPS between a vet with a first life character and a completionist isn't all that high, and a vet with a first life rogue mechanic who gets some decent if not optimal gear and fills up one ED can certainly compete at end game mowing those same EE mobs down in 7 seconds instead of 5, even if 9% doublestrike/shot and some other effects are noticeable.

The gap in defences between a vet with a first life character and a completionist is HUGE however, the epic completionist (or triple completionist) has so much more AC, PRR etc. Content that requires the vet to pay careful attention and have the possibility of death to their first life character is of absolutely no threat to their triple completionist main. The past life bonuses went way overboard in this regard, and I think having epic past lives apply at all to heroic content was a serious mistake.

The gap in DCs is substantial but in so much content the first life character can still be auto-success with a bit of work, continue to be useful but start to fail some of the time in EEs where the completionist can keep auto-succeeding, and then they're suddenly auto-fail in those couple of endgame quests that are pretty rough even on completionists to hit the DCs... so overall they're not so different...

[AngryDude]

i hate you cause you smell funny!

Hey, laser lips, your mama was a snow blower!


The warforged get no respect around here. Toaster this your mama snowblower that.

[Gremmlynn]

Okay, I hate to nitpick on a choice of words, but... "Flavor" toons do work well. They are simply characters. I don't understand why it is so prevalent on the forums to split up characters into the categories of "normal characters" and "flavor characters". In actuality, the "flavor characters" are the "normal characters". The practically-perfect-in-every-way min-maxed characters are ABnormal.

When most players roll up their characters in this game, they are building "studious ice sorcerers" or "wise old monk spiritualists" or "protective dwarf fighter bodyguards" or whatever it is that they are imagining up. It isn't *regular* to roll up characters wherein every aspect of the character is determined by a DPS calculator with all the imagination of a pet rock. People who think of "math" as a character concept are not normal. Most people don't look at a video game and/or an rpg and think about how fun it'll be calculating the standard deviation for a sample of several dozen 5-minute DPS tests comparing the difference between an 11/9 class-split and a 12/8 class split. And this is coming from someone with a background in statistics.

Naturally, discussions here are going to have more people who are really into dissecting what's going on "under the hood" of the game. But can we acknowledge that these forums are like opposite world and it can possibly alienate new players reading them to get the impression that "Calculon Toons" are the expected standard?

It's no wonder new player retention is brushed off around here all the time. This is a place where the placement of +2 ability points on gnomes in Int vs. Wisdom is treated with the gravity of an existential crisis...Personally, I think most people start with the concept and then optimize, at least to some degree, from there. I know that's what I do and actually put quite a bit of thought into specific level splits within a concept for multi-classed characters. At the same time, I don't go as far as pulling out spreadsheets or making exact calculations. But I do look at what level X of class Y will give me compared to level A of class B as far as spell levels, enhancement trees, bonus feats, etc. go.

[eris2323]

I understand all of your arguments, but I still think there NEEDS to be a power gap, to allow people to work towards something greater.

If people aren't willing to put the time into the game, they don't deserve the power. It's as simple as that. A casual player can have fun without accessing multi-TR power, as well, I think we all remember when we weren't powerful, and had enough fun with the game that we actually stuck with it, and put time into it.

Past life feats aren't THAT powerful - but running the same quests through 15 lives does allow one to know what's going to happen, and prepare for it.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Besides, the new loot is levelling the playing field, at least a little bit, with items on par with many old epic raid items.

I really don't think anything needs to change, beyond finally finishing up all classes enhancement trees, as needed.

[Gremmlynn]

What I want to remove is the effect of having 50+ incremental bonuses that a new player will take literally years to accumulate even with a heavy play investment.

That's what is killing this game. Because new players come in and look around and most of them leave when they realize that even if they like the game a 6 month grind won't get them to the promised land.

Most MMO's manage this problem by having a continually increasing end game in which gear is the only thing that really matters. Then they create many varied ways to power through the XP required to get to end game, including purchasing characters that are 80% of the way there with representative gear so they can just level hard to cap and then start grinding gear. The gear that end game players has to grind changes every 6 months to a year with a new end game environment based on either a new expansion or a level cap raise or both.

DDO can't do this because end game is not level 30. End game is level 30 and at least a dozen past lives related to whatever class you are playing. It's about the incremental power that other past lives allow, although not as important as the prime past lives for whatever you're doing at the moment. It's about gear that literally took years to grind and that significantly increase the power of the characters. There are no other MMO's in which gear you grinded out 2 years ago is still relevant at end game. There are very few shortcuts to grinding out that gear also. It's another long grind alongside the past lives and you may or may not be able to get where you want based on random drops otherwise.

If DDO's posture moving forward is that it is a game dominated by OCD Methuselahs, well there aren't very many people who would come in to a 10 year old game trying to attain that status and DDO loses the existing ones every day to normal attrition.Frankly, I don't think the incremental bonuses are the problem. It's the going back to level 1 or to a much lesser extent 20, to get them that is. The whole system is mostly a product of the time it was developed. When the game, overall, was lacking in content and lacking the most in the highest level of content. It basically made any new content of any level attractive and useful for all players.

If it were to be done today, now that most new content is concentrated at the highest level, or has two versions one of which is highest level, it likely would be better if it involved playing one's character at that highest level to gain those small incremental "polish" bonuses. It doesn't look so bad to get to 95% in a few months and staying there, spending possibly many years to get that last 5%. Rather than regrinding the first 95% over and over to gain a little more each time.

[Gremmlynn]

Past lives are overestimated and you certainly don't need billions xp or years to be effective.
50 past lives do not make a good player. Might get flak for this, but it's often the opposite.

"I will just get ( triple ) completionist then I will be able to play hard content" - I heard this few times. Well no, you won't.

36 point build, some tomes ( it's stupid that they are p2w only at this point but that's what it is ), destiny or two and you are set. It's never been easier.

Some builds don't even need that. Newb assassin or wizard will get crushed, but Blitzer mechanic or borelock do not require much.

There is huge gap, but it's the experience or call it knowledge which you get by playing a lot and playing outside your comfort zone, rather than all the past lives in the world.32 point and most likely wont notice the difference. Some tomes are nice, but for most builds not that big a deal either.

For the most part, past lives just give one a little more than what is needed in whatever it is they give.

[janave]

On a scale of 1-10 as the OP uses, what is a 2 doing in LE content? That's like a junior varsity middle school football team handing their running back the ball with an NFL defense lined up on the other side of scrimmage. A crushing one shot experience is the expectation in that scenario.

Most of that power gap is made up by choosing the easy button at character creation and gearing accordingly. Some classes can have "A" level DPS while maintaining 200+ PRR while some have a harder time hitting 100 PRR. That scenario can just as easily happen when a vet plays a flavor build while the OP is playing a cookie cutter FOTM.

Truth.

Except the big majority of vets lean towards playing the cookie cutter FOTM. In the meanwhile newer players have 0 clue about what FOTM or cookie cutter means, even less clues on how they achieve the critical synergies that fuel these builds (or have the abiltiy to stack enough passives to keep it hitting/proccing/etc enough times to look OP).


DDO is seriously not newplayer friendly atm, and the Devs not helping by "Raising the EXP to cap", and "Keep nerfing Feature abilities, that old players took for granted for years"...and the list goes on.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Most of what OP is talking about, the power gap between new players and vets, is because meta knowledge. No amount of past lives allows you to go from beating on an EE mob for a minute and it not dying, to mowing down a group of them in five seconds.

Meta knowledge, and also gear, utterly eclipses the bonuses from past lives.

No, you are wrong. Completely wrong. I invite you and OP to play me in a perma death game first life and see. Of course PLs matter. I won't entertain arguments that they don't till u people get out of our Ivory towers and play me on a level field.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Here is my drop the mike for all the mini-Thors. Back in the day of this game there used to be an end game raid called Tower of Depair. Now when this raid came out it could not be PUG'd. Only the top few guilds on each server could finish this raid. To do it on elite? That needed the best of the best elite guilds. These players weren't mini-Thors, they were good players. They lived in a world with +3 tomes, they needed a tank on bosses, they needed healing. They had to work together. That was years ago. Since then people have added massive PL bonuses. Now they crush everything. This OP wasn't in one of those elite guilds but now he crushes and he brags that he is uber. So what has happened? DDO has let this aberration of TR stacking to let people who play in a basement under their Mom's house to accumulate so much power they have broken the game. This was never a problem when ToD was being run. Why? Cause the best players were evident then weren't they? Now the basement trolls of 50 past lives have taken over the game instead.

Summary: There was no power gap in ToD era was there? Some PCs had power cause they had a +3 INT tome or a SoS but all were in the same curve. Now the gap is so wide the Pacific Ocean couldint fill it.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Past life feats aren't THAT powerful -

Wrong. They are, already pointed out. next.

[Vellrad]

Wrong. They are, already pointed out. next.

no didn't.
but please go on, your delusions are amusing.

[AzureDragonas]

Here is my drop the mike for all the mini-Thors. Back in the day of this game there used to be an end game raid called Tower of Depair. Now when this raid came out it could not be PUG'd. Only the top few guilds on each server could finish this raid. To do it on elite? That needed the best of the best elite guilds. These players weren't mini-Thors, they were good players. They lived in a world with +3 tomes, they needed a tank on bosses, they needed healing. They had to work together. That was years ago. Since then people have added massive PL bonuses. Now they crush everything. This OP wasn't in one of those elite guilds but now he crushes and he brags that he is uber. So what has happened? DDO has let this aberration of TR stacking to let people who play in a basement under their Mom's house to accumulate so much power they have broken the game. This was never a problem when ToD was being run. Why? Cause the best players were evident then weren't they? Now the basement trolls of 50 past lives have taken over the game instead.

Summary: There was no power gap in ToD era was there? Some PCs had power cause they had a +3 INT tome or a SoS but all were in the same curve. Now the gap is so wide the Pacific Ocean couldint fill it.

Are you joking, do you even understand what you talking about, you try compare pre U14 and after U14 games. Game when highest lvl cap was 20 there was no ED when highest ability score item was +7 +2 insight +1 exceptional and everyone to get best gear needed run S/S/S system quests to get theyr items from vendor to epic, to a current U14 where lvl cap is 30, there are broken sutff called ED which "fixes" all weakness of players, items goes +15 +7 insight +2 exceptional, there are dozen time better trash loot arroun than old S/S/S most items are, there are dozen times better weapons arround when before ppl used random items or crafted in house C, after all enchantment passes, and Epic difficulty remake.

* Do you actualy think my barb having 28 reflex does save and gets hit from inferno in EE von6 at 20 for 70-100 while having 1400 hp becouse of pl feats?
* Does pl feats does my 7-15k Energu burst criticals aoe arround me each 30 seconds?
* Does pl feats heal me over 1k hp for 12 sp each 12 seconds when i cast cocon?
* Does my pl feats makes my bonus to damage over 100 and help me do crits on my warchanter for 5-10k?
* Do you actualy think that pl feats allow me to stand with barbarian in red alert surrounded by 30-40 devils at 19 in elite sins and just by cleaving arround regen more HP than Garen in fountain sitting with 6 warmogs?
* Did pl feats allows us to ignore 60-70% damage monsters does easily while we stack prr?
* Did pl feats allows most builds to solo EE like mechanics, paladins, barbarians, bards can?

Wake up, there was talk, that PK of players are out of control, and elite is more like casual for those who know how to use that PK devs themseves handed down without balancing game arround that. more than 90% content for veterans are soloable. If you can't relize that and blame pl feats for n changes devs made to transform need of grouping to semi casual elite to solo, then there are no reasoning to even talk to you, you claim you understand game most of us, but you still fail and ignore changes devs made which actualy impacted and reshaped game.

[Duetotheseverity]

The problem is not past lives or gear, the problem is the devs don't know their own game.

I'm not asking for balance but they just can't understand what can be op or not.

One example is the kobolds ac in the new quests, all past lives, gear, feats, buffs don't help you to hit the stupid kobolds.

Why? because the devs don't know what is a good number for their ac.

Another example, damage in LE. Some mobs hit you for 1000, others for 4000.

No past lives, gear, pray, holy amulets will safe you ***.

Before we needed teamplay and strategy, now you just need to play a ranged toon.

That is your "GAP"

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So a very good player with 50 past lives and a very good player with none at cap are basically in the same situation?

Really?

I would be that very good player with no past lives at cap.... ;)

But, I do have years of gear.

Ok... my DPS.... way, behind some of these people.
My HP... half as many.
My PRR, etc... probably half again.

Yes, there is a difference.

But I feel comfortable in EEs.
I feel comfortable in the two six-man LEs.
I feel comfortable in LE Tempest Spine.

...and in LE TS.... I watch them die way more than me. (not all of them.. but many of them)

I actually feel I do better when things get tougher than they do. (again, some of them are very good players, most are not)

Yes, there is a huge power gap.
It shows in kill count.
(but my cautious playstyle also greatly diminishes my kill counts)
It shows in stats.

it shows in DPS most of all.
(although, those who grind past lives also tend to grind specific gear and optimize builds as well.... all thing I do not do. I just play the game as it comes. But I have been playing a long time and do have some pretty good gear too.)


...if that helps.... lol

[FranOhmsford]

Wrong. They are, already pointed out. next.

I've now Played 43 different characters to at least Lvl 20 {Heroic Cap}.
I have 29 Characters who've TRd at least once.
I have 11 Characters who've TR'd at least twice. One of those is on his 5th Life and 2 are 4th Lifers.
I've ERd a number of times too.
And have one character capped at 30 right now.

And the difference between 1st and 2nd Life is NIGHT and DAY!

Just ONE TR makes a HUGE difference!
Imagine what 14 of them do!

I still have multiple 1st Life Characters and I still create Characters on other Servers where I don't have all the gear I have on my main Servers or Lvl 90+ Ship Buffs!
I have secondary and tertiary accounts that are F2P and don't have the benefits of my main account too {2 characters on one of those Accounts are now 2nd Lifers!}.


Another thing that vets don't get is the difference having maxed out all Destinies and being able to run through Epics in your Main Destiny with the right Twists makes!
It doesn't matter as much as they think what your main Destiny is {I personally HATE Leg Dread and am not impressed with DC! - My Characters do better in other destinies because my playstyle doesn't fit in with those two no matter how good they're supposed to be!}.
I'll never play a Blitzer Mechanic - By the time I get Blitz on those Characters I'll be moving on to another Destiny! {If this means my DPS isn't as good as they say it should be then so be it!}.
But I'm getting off topic so back to my point:
A 1st Lifer just starting off in Epics is at an INCREDIBLE disadvantage compared even to someone who's got just 2 ERs done {2 ERs = 8 Destinies maxed now}.
Heroic Past Lives are weaker than Epic Past Lives when it comes to Epics. Especially when you add in the Grind to do all your Destinies - A 5th Lifer coming back from a couple years absence who hasn't started his Epic Grind yet is behind a 1st Lifer with a couple of ERs who's able to run in her main Destiny! But that 5th Lifer will catch up fast because the Heroic Past Lives he's already done count for something too and he'll complete his EDs and a couple ERs far faster than the 1st Lifer will get to 5th Life!


Most importantly of all; It's the cumulative effect of all those Past Lives, EDs, ERs, The Gear accumulated along the way AND the Meta Knowledge accumulated along the way!
It's not just ONE Part....It's the WHOLE!



P.S. My Warlock having completed the Arcane Sphere which she had to start in and got through the Melee Sphere and maxed US is now Rank 21 EA.
And once EA {and DC} is done she'll be going back to US! {No I'm not going to do the Primal Sphere on her - There's no point!}.
Fatesinger was good too but US is easily the best Destiny for her - Far better than EA {the one that everyone goes on about!}.
My Monk {now 3rd Life} maxed every destiny on his 1st Life and is now running Morninglord Fighter/Monk Lives with one Cleric Level IN US {GMoF is actually probably better - US doesn't provide the PRR that GMoF does but does provide far more HPs - Yes HP beats PRR and DR when you're talking about Vigor of Battle vs Unbreakable! And definitely when talking anout US vs Every other Destiny!
You're expected to have...what was it...1200 hps on a melee toon now? Well the ONLY way I can get that on that toon is in US {And even then I'm not sure!}.

[FranOhmsford]

Quoted for addendum

....

Meanwhile the Devs keep raising the Glass Ceiling so my 2nd and 3rd lifers, My toons with a couple of ERs etc. are in just as bad a position as they were on their 1st Lives with nothing!
Yes they have the extra benefits but they aren't enough to get past that Glass Ceiling yet!
I'll keep going though and the Devs will keep raising the Ceiling on me!


And it's not just in Epics anymore either - The new Heroic Quests {scaled down Epics} are aimed squarely at the new Meta {Massive AoE damage Warlocks} and nigh on impossible for a single target toon like Melee Monks.

Actually that's something I've been meaning to ask about:

Rogue Mechanics - IPS requires the mobs get in a column otherwise you're a Single Target toon - Rogue Mechs are amazing in a Group but in no way = to a Warlock when it comes to Soloing or shortmanning! Especially in the new tight confines quests like Archon's Trial or Grim and Barrett with 8-12 mobs charging at you and no space to maneuver!
A Melee Paladin or Barb or even Swashbuckler/Warchanter is far better in those situations than a Mech.
A Well Played and Built Sorc or Wizard {Weaker toons overall} are far better in those situations than a Mech.
BECAUSE
A Mech is a single target toon!
Yes you have IPS but mobs don't line up for you out of the goodness of their hearts and they don't stand still either, these days they charge right at you and backwards kiting isn't fast enough to stay away {Especially when 4 of them are firing off Acid Blasts, Scorching Rays and Polar Rays right back at you!}.
The Melee just goes in hits Cleave, Great Cleave and the danger's gone!

[Duetotheseverity]

I have mechs and barbs, the mechs are way better no matter what.

Do you know why? The mobs die in 1-2 hits and they never touch you.

Melees need to hit the target more times and come closer to do it.

[FranOhmsford]

I have mechs and barbs, the mechs are way better no matter what.

Do you know why? The mobs die in 1-2 hits and they never touch you.

Melees need to hit the target more times and come closer to do it.

THF Barbs and X-Bow Mechanics are equal one v one against mobs {Both are Top Tier!}.

It's when there's 8-12 mobs together that the Barb comes out on top. Because while your two hits kills one mob, maybe 2 his two hits kills at least 5 of them!

If you're good enough at kiting that they never touch you then all power to you but there's no way you're killing those mobs as a Rogue Mech as fast as you are as a Cleaving Barb {Again I'm not talking about in a Group dynamic here but Solo or Shortman with you playing the Rogue Mech and the Barb NOT You on a Rogue Mech while someone else plays the Barb because that comes to player against player rather than class against class!}.

The Barb also has twice your HP at a minimum, better PRR/MRR and better Self Healing - You have Evasion fine but I'm not talking about fully optimized toons here with Reflex through the roof!
It's far easier in this game to get decent PRR/MRR than it is to get decent Dodge {decent Dodge being basically Max or don't bother!}.
It's far easier for a Barb to boost his HP to silly numbers than it is for a Rogue to boost his Reflexes to silly numbers. {When four Abishai are firing at you at the same time it only takes 1 fail to be in big trouble. Add in an Ice Flenser with unevadable Polar Ray and boom you're dead!}.

The Barb has no trouble wading in and Cleaving to his heart's content - The Rogue Mech {the non-optimized Rogue Mech that is!} is at a major disadvantage!

Now of course it is possible in DDO to Optimize every Class BUT it's the requirements to do so being so different from Class to Class that causes these Balance issues.
A Warlock doesn't need to be even slightly optimized in Heroic Content {or even in EH outside of End-Game Raids}.
A Cleric needs to be optimized to the Max just to get through high level Heroics without being a Piker-Healbot and a non-optimized Cleric may even have trouble in some ENs!


Did I say Rogue Mech was a bad class? NO!
I just said that I was having trouble with large groups of mobs because Rogue Mechs are limited in AoE options as opposed to Warlocks, Paladins, Swahbuckler/Warchanters and Barbs {the other Top Tier Builds}.



P.S. The Devs have had an annoying tendency recently to use the mechanic of mobs only spawning when you get into melee range - This really hurts single target focused Ranged Builds {Not Casters who can jump back throwing an AoE but Ranged Characters!}.

[Duetotheseverity]

You may be talking about heroics, you can't compare mechs and barbs in epic content.

I have 2 mechs and 6 melee toons.

A mech can outdps any barb in any quest you choose.

In all quests when you have a mech or shuri they are going to have 3/4 of all kills and 1/3 of deaths(if any death) than any melees.

This number can change a bit in heroics but thats how it works on epics/legendary.

Again i don't want ranged nerfed but thats how the game is now, the devs are making endgame focusing ranged/warlocks.

And ruining the game for everybody else.

[-Avalon-]

The true gap is between melee and ranged. The more devs make enemies that are way OP, such that they can one/two shot people who have made toons that top out PRR, use multiple defenses (like incorp/displace), etc... The more they push players to roll ranged characters so that they keep being hit to a minimum.

[Duetotheseverity]

The true gap is between melee and ranged. The more devs make enemies that are way OP, such that they can one/two shot people who have made toons that top out PRR, use multiple defenses (like incorp/displace), etc... The more they push players to roll ranged characters so that they keep being hit to a minimum.

This, but some people just quit instead roll a ranged toon.

[AzureDragonas]

THF Barbs and X-Bow Mechanics are equal one v one against mobs {Both are Top Tier!}.

It's when there's 8-12 mobs together that the Barb comes out on top. Because while your two hits kills one mob, maybe 2 his two hits kills at least 5 of them!


So target furthest monster run backward use one of those
Leg Shot: Ranged Attack: +2[W]. On Damage: Slow your enemy's movement by 50% for 10 seconds. (Cooldown: 10 seconds)

I don't see a problem for veteran to do it. Obvisouly there are ppl who are not good enough to use simple mechanic like this, but then again maybe those players should't try solo hardest difficuly too?



If you're good enough at kiting that they never touch you then all power to you but there's no way you're killing those mobs as a Rogue Mech as fast as you are as a Cleaving Barb {Again I'm not talking about in a Group dynamic here but Solo or Shortman with you playing the Rogue Mech and the Barb NOT You on a Rogue Mech while someone else plays the Barb because that comes to player against player rather than class against class!}.

The Barb also has twice your HP at a minimum, better PRR/MRR and better Self Healing - You have Evasion fine but I'm not talking about fully optimized toons here with Reflex through the roof!
It's far easier in this game to get decent PRR/MRR than it is to get decent Dodge {decent Dodge being basically Max or don't bother!}.
It's far easier for a Barb to boost his HP to silly numbers than it is for a Rogue to boost his Reflexes to silly numbers. {When four Abishai are firing at you at the same time it only takes 1 fail to be in big trouble. Add in an Ice Flenser with unevadable Polar Ray and boom you're dead!}.


Thx to another demoganization of rogs, devs made rog's have
Fast Movement: You run 1% faster for each of your Rogue levels if you are wearing cloth or light armor.

So with bugged ship buffs, having high as barbarians move speed, and having range, you find hard to kite monsters, who technicly can hit you on your low rolls? Do you even understand that on top of that as rog you have higher saves than same barbs you also have evasion, and to say that barbarians just cleave its pathetic, it only shows how little you understand about game. The only thing which can stop barbarians is exactly reflex save against all sort of blasts etc, becouse they dont get temporary hp like from melee attacks they do.



The Barb has no trouble wading in and Cleaving to his heart's content - The Rogue Mech {the non-optimized Rogue Mech that is!} is at a major disadvantage!


That's why EE FoT speed record is held by soloer mechanic? Seriously you gonna say that Mech which is same easy win button as warlock in good hands is at disatdvantage? No clue how to describer other classes builds then, when 1 of strongest first lifers builds in game requiring close to no gear investment have disadvantage.



Now of course it is possible in DDO to Optimize every Class BUT it's the requirements to do so being so different from Class to Class that causes these Balance issues.
A Warlock doesn't need to be even slightly optimized in Heroic Content {or even in EH outside of End-Game Raids}.
A Cleric needs to be optimized to the Max just to get through high level Heroics without being a Piker-Healbot and a non-optimized Cleric may even have trouble in some ENs!


Soloing heroic content on cleric by putting BB, or using dozen sla is easy enough so thank you very much, fvs have bigger disadvantage here than clerics, just not everyone able to play cleric caster and instead go swing axe arround while doing low damage. Maybe indeed they should be healing bots.



Did I say Rogue Mech was a bad class? NO!
I just said that I was having trouble with large groups of mobs because Rogue Mechs are limited in AoE options as opposed to Warlocks, Paladins, Swahbuckler/Warchanters and Barbs {the other Top Tier Builds}.


So you are upset that mechanic have weakness against multiple monsters or that you can't handle multiple monsters while other mechanics even solo toee where group of monsters are 2-3 bigger than in quests you describe?



P.S. The Devs have had an annoying tendency recently to use the mechanic of mobs only spawning when you get into melee range - This really hurts single target focused Ranged Builds {Not Casters who can jump back throwing an AoE but Ranged Characters!}.

It does not it only proves you don't know how play class well and instead of learning how to do it you try push blame on game. Dozen ppl easily do those new quests inlcuding me and they are way more enjoyable when those quests where monsters dies just by standing next to you. You can't handle hard content? There are options for easier difficulty, and there are no light year gap between tr and non tr builds, issue is playstyle and experience, not everyone capable to build toons properly, so obviously not everyone should be able either run or even worse solo hardest content at level.

[KoobTheProud]

I would be that very good player with no past lives at cap.... ;)

But, I do have years of gear.

Ok... my DPS.... way, behind some of these people.
My HP... half as many.
My PRR, etc... probably half again.

Yes, there is a difference.

But I feel comfortable in EEs.
I feel comfortable in the two six-man LEs.
I feel comfortable in LE Tempest Spine.

...and in LE TS.... I watch them die way more than me. (not all of them.. but many of them)

I actually feel I do better when things get tougher than they do. (again, some of them are very good players, most are not)

Yes, there is a huge power gap.
It shows in kill count.
(but my cautious playstyle also greatly diminishes my kill counts)
It shows in stats.

it shows in DPS most of all.
(although, those who grind past lives also tend to grind specific gear and optimize builds as well.... all thing I do not do. I just play the game as it comes. But I have been playing a long time and do have some pretty good gear too.)


...if that helps.... lol

Half the HP is a big deal. It means that you're much less survivable than the the guy who is at max hp. It's the difference between being a tank and a DPS. Half the DPS is a big deal. It means that you cannot contribute at the same content level the way the guy with twice your DPS does. Half the HP AND half the DPS means you are not playing the same game they are. If the content challenges you then they roll over it with near impunity. If the content challenges them it means that you are essentially limited to being carried through it by them bobbing along behind them like a cork in their wake.

The fact that you're a good player with lots of experience tells us what we need to know about the problems of having superheros gained via investment in time dominating the landscape.

It's not such a big deal if the devs just develop content for the good players who are at your level. You can choose at that point to bob in the wake of the superheros or more likely just group with non-superheros to enjoy the content. The problem arises if the devs put any significant effort into developing content for the superheros, who really are not as numerous as they think. At that point a fairly small segment of the population is hogging resources that really should be put into the average good player's enjoyment of the game.

The option to just stop playing the superheros and build an appropriate avatar for the content level of the game always exists for those players who got stuck on a treadmill and wound up creating superheros in a normal FRPG setting.

This is an obvious point that the economics of the situation is likely to be making behind the scenes for Turbine. There are far more people with 3 past lives or less than than with 50 or more.

[Duetotheseverity]

not everyone capable to build toons properly, so obviously not everyone should be able either run or even worse solo hardest content at level.

This statement is bs, for LE raids go ranged/warlock or go home.

Tanks and melees are useless.

[AzureDragonas]

Yes exactly i blame any player and build which by lvl 30 have less than 500 hp / does less than 100 avarage dps in second / have no way to heal up or help others / have no way to cc / clerics or fvs swinging axes and doing nothing more / druids or wiz summoning pets and believing theyr pets will do better job than they / using by any means weak random untested builds in hardest difficulty / lvling? ED in hardest quests or raids / having no defenses becouse DPS is most important?

And believes they should be able run those quests better than other ppl do. There are easier diff they can do but thats not enough for them. I blame them for they lack of understanding and arrogance to accept theyr place, and instead of getting better talking nonsense about how unfair/hard/stupid game is. You know what is actualy stupid? When avarage Joe who just started playing self-preclaim as best player in server, and believes hes some descendent divine being which should be able by single button push destroy everything, but a moment something goes wrong comes here and cryes about unfairness and "impossible" to complete content. Instead of learning and developing he somehow believe hes a pinnacle others should be watching even those who plays for years, who learned about game, aquired experience and run hardest difficulty now. It's disgusting when content is downgraded by erosion and PK to a level anyone can solo it, and instead of fixing what is broken they demand even further nerfs to satisfy theyr arrogance. U25-29 packs are closest in challange level of elite in game, rest are at best entertaining walkup, which is just zerged to lvl up faster instead of actualy giving by any means balanced questing for group. Elite is a group difficulty which shoudn't be soloed by most population.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Which brings me to my main point - there are a LOT of trap options in DDO. Some of those traps are *entire classes*, and to a lesser extent *whole enhancement trees*. Playing a Fighter20? Trap; only Vanguard is any good, but Paladin is almost universally better at it. Monk20? Trap. Non-Mechanic rogue? Trap. And even if you manage to pick the right class with a viable option, you may not have alloted your stats correctly.
Yes, I agree. And why is this so? It has come to this because the devs have decided to put their time and effort into things like a new gnome race rather than completing the class passes and eliminating some of the traps.


I think, in general, the devs have the right idea in mind going forward. The classes and trees that have received modernizing "enhancement passes" [which, by the way, I don't have a comprehensive list of; I've heard that it's essentially Paladins, Mechanics, and by default, Warlocks?] are considered to be excellent or at least viable, while others like Kensai are languishing. But still, the newer trees are useful, fun, and viable, and the new loot system is helping me bridge the gaps in my equipment.
I see a huge disconnect between your first sentence and the rest of the paragraph. The devs do not have the right idea in mind, and they continue to prove it every time they delay completing the class passes in favor of some other task. The entirety of U29 was a disaster, even the one thing which will probably be decent once fixed, the new loot system, is chock full of bugs and has broken entirely the associated Cannith Crafting system. All of the time they spent tossing out beta level or worse code into the live environment and calling it "Update 29" could have been far better spent on finishing a task they started all too long ago and seem to have no schedule for completing. Or even just addressing the plethora of bugs which have existed for so long that they don't even bother to list them on the Known Issues list any longer.


The key thing to remember about the power gap is that if the higher levels of power ever become practically speaking unobtainable for new players joining that DDO will be in maintenance mode shortly thereafter. Most of the costs in DDO are sunk at this point and there will come a point, probably fairly soon, where all Turbine wants to do is milk the license for what it is worth without putting new development into the game.

It's in all of our interests for the power gap to narrow dramatically over the next year or so.
So if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that it's entirely up to the devs to ensure that the game does not slip into maintenance mode. Which if you are correct means that the game is doomed to slip into maintenance mode.

[Duetotheseverity]

Yes exactly i blame any player and build which by lvl 30 have less than 500 hp / does less than 100 avarage dps in second / have no way to heal up or help others / have no way to cc / clerics or fvs swinging axes and doing nothing more / druids or wiz summoning pets and believing theyr pets will do better job than they / using by any means weak random untested builds in hardest difficulty / lvling? ED in hardest quests or raids / having no defenses becouse DPS is most important?

And believes they should be able run those quests better than other ppl do. There are easier diff they can do but thats not enough for them. I blame them for they lack of understanding and arrogance to accept theyr place, and instead of getting better talking nonsense about how unfair/hard/stupid game is. You know what is actualy stupid? When avarage Joe who just started playing self-preclaim as best player in server, and believes hes some descendent divine being which should be able by single button push destroy everything, but a moment something goes wrong comes here and cryes about unfairness and "impossible" to complete content. Instead of learning and developing he somehow believe hes a pinnacle others should be watching even those who plays for years, who learned about game, aquired experience and run hardest difficulty now. It's disgusting when content is downgraded by erosion and PK to a level anyone can solo it, and instead of fixing what is broken they demand even further nerfs to satisfy theyr arrogance. U25-29 packs are closest in challange level of elite in game, rest are at best entertaining walkup, which is just zerged to lvl up faster instead of actualy giving by any means balanced questing for group. Elite is a group difficulty which shoudn't be soloed by most population.

I agree with you but when you have all past lives and gear and even then you are still not hitting mobs with a 8 in die roll or getting 1 shot by trash mobs even with 1800 hp, displacement, ghostly, 200 prr and all, you know something is wrong.

Blame builds and lack of skill is bs, i started to run epics when sands become epic. The quests were idiotic and you had to sneak/invis most of it.

That why people went for tr's, to get stronger. Now theres no point even to tr because you can do just fine with a first life mech. All you need is a xbow and fury maxed.

[AzureDragonas]

I agree with you but when you have all past lives and gear and even then you are still not hitting mobs with a 8 in die roll or getting 1 shot by trash mobs even with 1800 hp, displacement, ghostly, 200 prr and all, you know something is wrong.

Blame builds and lack of skill is bs, i started to run epics when sands become epic. The quests were idiotic and you had to sneak/invis most of it.

That why people went for tr's, to get stronger. Now theres no point even to tr because you can do just fine with a first life mech. All you need is a xbow and fury maxed.

on my barbarian i was stuning mobs easily in LE Hox, and they needed 2 hits to kill me why you might ask? I had 2k hp over 120 prr, displacment dodge while being most str based orc. Issue is skill of players, and how they build use what they have. And for second part i agree, but at same time i enjoy gaming and creating of toons while gathering pl feats, playing 3-4h a day after work i can go from 20 to 30 in a week, becouse i know what to do. There are not enough knowlodge in player base did they even bothered to learn they can get potions of xp for free? Or pick collectables for chance to trade for potions later? Thats player issue they dont try to learn that stuff they want results without putting any efforts.

[Duetotheseverity]

on my barbarian i was stuning mobs easily in LE Hox, and they needed 2 hits to kill me why you might ask? I had 2k hp over 120 prr, displacment dodge while being most str based orc. Issue is skill of players, and how they build use what they have. And for second part i agree, but at same time i enjoy gaming and creating of toons while gathering pl feats, playing 3-4h a day after work i can go from 20 to 30 in a week, becouse i know what to do. There are not enough knowlodge in player base did they even bothered to learn they can get potions of xp for free? Or pick collectables for chance to trade for potions later? Thats player issue they dont try to learn that stuff they want results without putting any efforts.

And if the stun don't work you are dead.

Most of my toons are completionist/epic completionist.

i have ranged toons, casters, the ridiculous warlocks and melees but melees are the worst to play these days because the game is balanced for ranged/warlocks.

I did LE tempest a few times with my main toon(melee) and completed w/o die. I know what to do to stay alive.

But the damage and ac are still stupidly high.

[FranOhmsford]

You may be talking about heroics, you can't compare mechs and barbs in epic content.

Yes I'm talking about Heroics {I wouldn't even attempt to solo an EE!}.

But I'm sorry but Epics are Harder than Heroics - Much Much Harder! Rogue Mechs don't gain that much more from EDs, Epic Levels etc. than Barbs...In fact I'd say they gain considerably less!


I have 2 mechs and 6 melee toons.

Good for you but how many of those Melee toons are Barbs? That's the point you're arguing here.


A mech can outdps any barb in any quest you choose.

In all quests when you have a mech or shuri they are going to have 3/4 of all kills and 1/3 of deaths(if any death) than any melees.

And now we get to the meat of the argument - You didn't understand my point {Even though I spelled it out just in case!}.

I'm NOT talking about in a Group where you can stand back, shoot to your heart's content, never get hit and have 3-4 times the kill count of anyone else in the quest because of the amount of last hits you get!

I'm talking about when you're soloing or in a shortman where you're the one doing all the work {say the guy with you isn't that good or keeps dying}.

As an even slightly optimized Barb you'll wade in to each Group of mobs, 2 Cleaves, Done!
As a moderately optimized Mech you'll be kiting each Group of mobs for a good minute while you take them down 1 or 2 at a time!

The Mech has to be totally optimized to equal the AoE damage of a weak Barb!

The Mech is a Single Target Build that has to be optimized for AoE, The Barb is an AoE Build where mobs in singles just equals getting less kills in a group because he can't get to them before they go down!
The Barb shines when there's large Groups of Mobs!
The Mech shines when in a full Party no matter whether there's large groups of mobs or not BUT when it comes to soloing or shortman with a weak partner or a couple of weak puggers the Mech doesn't have the AoE DPS to make the quest both fast and easy.
He can get it done but it will take a lot more time and a lot more work {kiting!}.


This number can change a bit in heroics but thats how it works on epics/legendary.

In Heroics there's a lot more one-shot builds out there - The Mech in a group is competing with the Sorcs, the Warlocks, the Barbs, the Paladins etc. etc. etc. - The Mech SHOULD win if you're having a kill count contest in quests like Chains of Flame where mobs are set apart or in Quests like Rainbow where you can see the big groups of mobs at a distance BUT will lose in close quarter quests like Grim and Barrett where the Warlock, Sorc or Barb can take out the ENTIRE GROUP in 2 seconds flat while your Mech can only take out 1-2 of them in that time because he's a Single Target Build!

Now again - There's player skill involved too and if your Mech is fully optimized and you're running with non-optimized Barbs who are only taking 90% of the mobs HPs away in that time you're going to get a lot of extra kills!
But I'm not talking about in a Group - That's where the guy standing at the back with a machine gun shines!


Again i don't want ranged nerfed but thats how the game is now, the devs are making endgame focusing ranged/warlocks.

Honestly - AoE Aura Warlocks are better than Ranged Warlocks - Much Better!
Swap to Ranged for Bosses but for Trash the Aura is King!


And ruining the game for everybody else.

I wouldn't go that far - Yes I don't like the idea of mobs hitting for Stalwart HPs in one go BUT outside of Legendary Raids Melee are doing just fine.
For those Legendary Raids Melee Players just have to rebuild/gear up to fit.

Remember not every player is capable of twitch play good enough to never get hit and with a Ranged Character's PRR you're not surviving that one hit! {Why I keep saying Dodge needs buffing!}.

[Duetotheseverity]

It doesn't matters, full group or solo.

My mech damage is way higher than my barb.

In heroics you can jump in the middle of 20 mobs and cleave.

You can't do it in EE. You'll die if the mob hits you 1 time but so is the barb...

You can keep sneak atack up close to 100% of the time and even if you don't sneak the damage is still high.

IF you need to kite it'll take you a few secs, not enough to the mobs reach you.

[Drekisen]

Wouldn't making it "easier" for new players just create a different sort of gap.....the older players that have gone through repetition continuously to hone their playing skills and the people who just have it handed to them right away.

Even if they have the gear and levels they still will not be able to keep up with the "veterans".

I suppose somewhere along the way there is an apex of some sort......however you cannot just be given skill.....you have to put in the time.

Veteran and Iconics are already quite a giveaway I think and feel....and as long as Turbine makes the game appealing to new players there will be a pool for non-elite or casual gamers to comfortably play with......I don't see anything unfair about this.

[Qezuzu]

No, you are wrong. Completely wrong. I invite you and OP to play me in a perma death game first life and see. Of course PLs matter. I won't entertain arguments that they don't till u people get out of our Ivory towers and play me on a level field.

I'm not seeing any math.


Here is my drop the mike for all the mini-Thors. Back in the day of this game there used to be an end game raid called Tower of Depair. Now when this raid came out it could not be PUG'd. Only the top few guilds on each server could finish this raid. To do it on elite? That needed the best of the best elite guilds. These players weren't mini-Thors, they were good players. They lived in a world with +3 tomes, they needed a tank on bosses, they needed healing. They had to work together. That was years ago. Since then people have added massive PL bonuses. Now they crush everything. This OP wasn't in one of those elite guilds but now he crushes and he brags that he is uber. So what has happened? DDO has let this aberration of TR stacking to let people who play in a basement under their Mom's house to accumulate so much power they have broken the game. This was never a problem when ToD was being run. Why? Cause the best players were evident then weren't they? Now the basement trolls of 50 past lives have taken over the game instead.

Summary: There was no power gap in ToD era was there? Some PCs had power cause they had a +3 INT tome or a SoS but all were in the same curve. Now the gap is so wide the Pacific Ocean couldint fill it.

Pre-u14 our only source of defenses were HP and AC, and AC only worked if you built for it. The only real source of self-healing were heal scrolls (not for mid-combat) and SF pots (huge penalty).

Now we have self-healing, PRR, MRR, dodge, etc... it's not "basement dwellers" with past lives.



Which brings me to my main point - there are a LOT of trap options in DDO. Some of those traps are *entire classes*, and to a lesser extent *whole enhancement trees*. Playing a Fighter20? Trap; only Vanguard is any good, but Paladin is almost universally better at it. Monk20? Trap. Non-Mechanic rogue? Trap.

Lol

[Warrax23]

Here is my drop the mike for all the mini-Thors. Back in the day of this game there used to be an end game raid called Tower of Depair. Now when this raid came out it could not be PUG'd. Only the top few guilds on each server could finish this raid. To do it on elite? That needed the best of the best elite guilds. These players weren't mini-Thors, they were good players. They lived in a world with +3 tomes, they needed a tank on bosses, they needed healing. They had to work together. That was years ago. Since then people have added massive PL bonuses. Now they crush everything. This OP wasn't in one of those elite guilds but now he crushes and he brags that he is uber. So what has happened? DDO has let this aberration of TR stacking to let people who play in a basement under their Mom's house to accumulate so much power they have broken the game. This was never a problem when ToD was being run. Why? Cause the best players were evident then weren't they? Now the basement trolls of 50 past lives have taken over the game instead.

Summary: There was no power gap in ToD era was there? Some PCs had power cause they had a +3 INT tome or a SoS but all were in the same curve. Now the gap is so wide the Pacific Ocean couldint fill it.

A 6 on his scale is uber? huh... I don't see that the OP is "braging" just bring up a topic. A 6 on his scale only does 2k a second.. that sounds about average to me, ya know about where a 6 is on a 10 point scale, right after 5.. :P

I remember it taking 6 months to get a +5 full plate... not mithril, not adamantine, just regular vanilla +5 plate. Everything is handed to people around here on a silver platter, and people whine and complain that the game is too easy. WEEEEELLLL that's because a lot of vocal people in the past said IT'S TOO HARD, well in typical Turbine fashion they changed it to the other extreme. I'm sure some of you guys remember the old WW being a damnedable nightmare, those shamans used to cast flame strike like they were roasting marshmellows for s'mores... cept we were the marshmellows. Now people can solo the quest on Elite with no problems. (Also because the dynamic shifted) Instead of getting the Elite bonus for being 2 levels OVER the quest it should be reversed, you should get the Elite bonus for doing the quest 2 levels UNDER the quest, that would be elite right, harder not easier. But anyway this thread is about power level, and I will agree that the power gap should exist, just not as drastic as it currently is, a new player with no knowledge is more than likely not going to know all of the tricks we Vets use to plow through quests at mach 2, Even those who take their time can easily out pace a new player because you aren't exploring, your doing Point A, Point B, Point C because you know what your doing. Also Vets can tell what piece of gear is solid, or garbage (We don't listen to turbines DPS avg listed on the weapon) Also some of us still have the lvl 2 maelstroms... just saying.
Ok I've rambled enough for now, not like anyone reads what I write anyway lol.

-Mark

[Warrax23]

The problem is not past lives or gear, the problem is the devs don't know their own game.

I'm not asking for balance but they just can't understand what can be op or not.

One example is the kobolds ac in the new quests, all past lives, gear, feats, buffs don't help you to hit the stupid kobolds.

Why? because the devs don't know what is a good number for their ac.

Another example, damage in LE. Some mobs hit you for 1000, others for 4000.

No past lives, gear, pray, holy amulets will safe you ***.

Before we needed teamplay and strategy, now you just need to play a ranged toon.

That is your "GAP"

Is it a thigh gap? HA

Anyway I agree with your statements, this honestly is a DEV problem. They don't play this game at elite levels. I honestly can't blame them, they work here and I'm sure are burned out by the game, but it's causing a huge disconnect and is driving off players. :(

[Chai]

Truth.

Except the big majority of vets lean towards playing the cookie cutter FOTM. In the meanwhile newer players have 0 clue about what FOTM or cookie cutter means, even less clues on how they achieve the critical synergies that fuel these builds (or have the abiltiy to stack enough passives to keep it hitting/proccing/etc enough times to look OP).


DDO is seriously not newplayer friendly atm, and the Devs not helping by "Raising the EXP to cap", and "Keep nerfing Feature abilities, that old players took for granted for years"...and the list goes on.

Most of the things which work well are pure or near pure nowdays. Its much easier for even a newbie to stumble onto a pure paladin, pure ranger, pure bard etc....than it was when the most optimized builds were 12/6/2.

Even with that in mind, I would still also have to ask - what are new players doing in LE in the first place? If the expectation is that new players should be playing through the highest level quests on the highest difficulty setting, the rest of us (most of DDOs population) will be bored. People who run LN aren't missing much, as they can get their hands on the same loot, and earn higher xp per min.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Half the HP is a big deal. It means that you're much less survivable than the the guy who is at max hp. It's the difference between being a tank and a DPS. Half the DPS is a big deal. It means that you cannot contribute at the same content level the way the guy with twice your DPS does. Half the HP AND half the DPS means you are not playing the same game they are. If the content challenges you then they roll over it with near impunity. If the content challenges them it means that you are essentially limited to being carried through it by them bobbing along behind them like a cork in their wake.

The fact that you're a good player with lots of experience tells us what we need to know about the problems of having superheros gained via investment in time dominating the landscape.

It's not such a big deal if the devs just develop content for the good players who are at your level. You can choose at that point to bob in the wake of the superheros or more likely just group with non-superheros to enjoy the content. The problem arises if the devs put any significant effort into developing content for the superheros, who really are not as numerous as they think. At that point a fairly small segment of the population is hogging resources that really should be put into the average good player's enjoyment of the game.

The option to just stop playing the superheros and build an appropriate avatar for the content level of the game always exists for those players who got stuck on a treadmill and wound up creating superheros in a normal FRPG setting.

This is an obvious point that the economics of the situation is likely to be making behind the scenes for Turbine. There are far more people with 3 past lives or less than than with 50 or more.

I tend to play Rangers.
My main is a Ranger mutt.
While I do melee, I am no tank. (but I have things like Displacement, ghostly, etc.
High Ref save. (far higher than the average bear, but of course there are others who have higher than mine)

I've always thought HP were overrated by most players.
But yeah... I'm no tank.

(but in LE raids..... HP make zero difference.... ;) )

[Duetotheseverity]

Is it a thigh gap? HA

Anyway I agree with your statements, this honestly is a DEV problem. They don't play this game at elite levels. I honestly can't blame them, they work here and I'm sure are burned out by the game, but it's causing a huge disconnect and is driving off players. :(

Exactly, the new game is not harder. It's just frustating.

[Duetotheseverity]

(but in LE raids..... HP make zero difference.... ;) )

Hp, past lives, gear... nothing can make you survive.

[Warrax23]

Yes I'm talking about Heroics {I wouldn't even attempt to solo an EE!}.

But I'm sorry but Epics are Harder than Heroics - Much Much Harder! Rogue Mechs don't gain that much more from EDs, Epic Levels etc. than Barbs...In fact I'd say they gain considerably less!



Good for you but how many of those Melee toons are Barbs? That's the point you're arguing here.



And now we get to the meat of the argument - You didn't understand my point {Even though I spelled it out just in case!}.

I'm NOT talking about in a Group where you can stand back, shoot to your heart's content, never get hit and have 3-4 times the kill count of anyone else in the quest because of the amount of last hits you get!

I'm talking about when you're soloing or in a shortman where you're the one doing all the work {say the guy with you isn't that good or keeps dying}.

As an even slightly optimized Barb you'll wade in to each Group of mobs, 2 Cleaves, Done!
As a moderately optimized Mech you'll be kiting each Group of mobs for a good minute while you take them down 1 or 2 at a time!

The Mech has to be totally optimized to equal the AoE damage of a weak Barb!

The Mech is a Single Target Build that has to be optimized for AoE, The Barb is an AoE Build where mobs in singles just equals getting less kills in a group because he can't get to them before they go down!
The Barb shines when there's large Groups of Mobs!
The Mech shines when in a full Party no matter whether there's large groups of mobs or not BUT when it comes to soloing or shortman with a weak partner or a couple of weak puggers the Mech doesn't have the AoE DPS to make the quest both fast and easy.
He can get it done but it will take a lot more time and a lot more work {kiting!}.



In Heroics there's a lot more one-shot builds out there - The Mech in a group is competing with the Sorcs, the Warlocks, the Barbs, the Paladins etc. etc. etc. - The Mech SHOULD win if you're having a kill count contest in quests like Chains of Flame where mobs are set apart or in Quests like Rainbow where you can see the big groups of mobs at a distance BUT will lose in close quarter quests like Grim and Barrett where the Warlock, Sorc or Barb can take out the ENTIRE GROUP in 2 seconds flat while your Mech can only take out 1-2 of them in that time because he's a Single Target Build!

Now again - There's player skill involved too and if your Mech is fully optimized and you're running with non-optimized Barbs who are only taking 90% of the mobs HPs away in that time you're going to get a lot of extra kills!
But I'm not talking about in a Group - That's where the guy standing at the back with a machine gun shines!



Honestly - AoE Aura Warlocks are better than Ranged Warlocks - Much Better!
Swap to Ranged for Bosses but for Trash the Aura is King!



I wouldn't go that far - Yes I don't like the idea of mobs hitting for Stalwart HPs in one go BUT outside of Legendary Raids Melee are doing just fine.
For those Legendary Raids Melee Players just have to rebuild/gear up to fit.

Remember not every player is capable of twitch play good enough to never get hit and with a Ranged Character's PRR you're not surviving that one hit! {Why I keep saying Dodge needs buffing!}.

Hey Fran,
Barbs Healing in Epics doesn't keep up like it did before the nerf, I don't want to say barbs are now useless again, but while still having amazing DPS, they are lack luster when you waste 1/2 of your time drinking silver flame pots. (My barb used to be able to handle almost anything and the healing was fine) I even had to change him and the healing is bad now, I've seen and heard a lot of the same from other barbs.. we have to consider the whole game, not just sections of it.

-Mark

[Grailhawk]

As an even slightly optimized Barb you'll wade in to each Group of mobs, 2 Cleaves, Done!
As a moderately optimized Mech you'll be kiting each Group of mobs for a good minute while you take them down 1 or 2 at a time!

The Mech has to be totally optimized to equal the AoE damage of a weak Barb!

The Mech is a Single Target Build that has to be optimized for AoE, The Barb is an AoE Build where mobs in singles just equals getting less kills in a group because he can't get to them before they go down!

You seam to be ignoring Improved Precise Shot, no?

Part of the skill of playing a ranged toon well, is knowing how to burst to maximize the effectiveness of IPS.

[Starla70]

It seems to me that this whole issue is a bundle of missteps trying to fix it. It only seems to get worse. The balance pass did nothing to really balance anything, and at the same time the mobs got much stronger. The more the loot gets better, the more the Dev's have to compensate. It was called Monty Hall DMing when it was pnp. The more magical and higher the gear that was given out, the higher the monsters had to be made overall. It is a circle that has no end.

I wonder if the power gap was overall the reason for the new random loot. No newbies have a chance to get loot comparable if not better then named loot we had to farm and make. Thus giving them a chance to survive better. I know, there is named loot I have done away with now, after finding better random loot.

I think it is frustrating for new players to be told they are gimped, or refused into quests because they are new. I think a good start would be for there to be training guilds on each server. Players who take the time to help them build and understand the choices, and just what is even available.

[Andoris]

If you would like me to create a base line I will:

DPS Chart

1=100
2=300
3=500
4=750
5=1000
6=2000
7=3000
8=4000
9=5000
10= over 5K


You might want to move that scale up a bit -- there are many builds that can push ~8k-10k+ dps Yes it is using boosts, but with Draconic Rejuv you can run (nearly) limitless boosts on many toons.

[FranOhmsford]

we have to consider the whole game, not just sections of it.


Lol!

Precisely what I've been saying for YEARS!

Stop concentrating on Epics and consider the WHOLE GAME!

[Warrax23]

Lol!

Precisely what I've been saying for YEARS!

Stop concentrating on Epics and consider the WHOLE GAME!

I 100% agree.

[Brac]

Removed too not feed the trolls.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Hp, past lives, gear... nothing can make you survive.

Some things help you not get hit.

[FranOhmsford]

You seam to be ignoring Improved Precise Shot, no?

Yes...I'm ignoring IPS because I only mentioned it like 6 times!

Look at how the mobs are set up in quests, look at the lack of space to get them into a nice column in those same quests!

With IPS one kill turns into two {3 if you're exceptionally lucky!}.
Meanwhile the Barb takes out a minimum of 5 mobs and possibly all 8 in the same time!


Part of the skill of playing a ranged toon well, is knowing how to burst to maximize the effectiveness of IPS.

IPS is the main reason why Rogue Mechs aren't in the same position as Monks {No AoE whatsoever!} BUT no way is it in the same league as Cleave, Great Cleave etc. or Warlock Auras or Sorc Acid Blasts/Fireballs or Wail!


I have noticed some Rogue Mechs getting a lot of use out of traps for AoE Damage but not sure how they're doing so? {What are the requirements for decent traps - Gearslots given over to Spellpower? Multiple Enhancements cutting away at your defenses? What?}.

[Brac]

You might want to move that scale up a bit -- there are many builds that can push ~8k-10k+ dps Yes it is using boosts, but with Draconic Rejuv you can run (nearly) limitless boosts on many toons.

I agree, really the scale should go to 20.

[Duetotheseverity]

Some things help you not get hit.

Yeah but if they hit you are f....

[Brac]

A 6 on his scale is uber? huh... I don't see that the OP is "braging" just bring up a topic. A 6 on his scale only does 2k a second.. that sounds about average to me, ya know about where a 6 is on a 10 point scale, right after 5.. :P

I remember it taking 6 months to get a +5 full plate... not mithril, not adamantine, just regular vanilla +5 plate. Everything is handed to people around here on a silver platter, and people whine and complain that the game is too easy. WEEEEELLLL that's because a lot of vocal people in the past said IT'S TOO HARD, well in typical Turbine fashion they changed it to the other extreme. I'm sure some of you guys remember the old WW being a damnedable nightmare, those shamans used to cast flame strike like they were roasting marshmellows for s'mores... cept we were the marshmellows. Now people can solo the quest on Elite with no problems. (Also because the dynamic shifted) Instead of getting the Elite bonus for being 2 levels OVER the quest it should be reversed, you should get the Elite bonus for doing the quest 2 levels UNDER the quest, that would be elite right, harder not easier. But anyway this thread is about power level, and I will agree that the power gap should exist, just not as drastic as it currently is, a new player with no knowledge is more than likely not going to know all of the tricks we Vets use to plow through quests at mach 2, Even those who take their time can easily out pace a new player because you aren't exploring, your doing Point A, Point B, Point C because you know what your doing. Also Vets can tell what piece of gear is solid, or garbage (We don't listen to turbines DPS avg listed on the weapon) Also some of us still have the lvl 2 maelstroms... just saying.
Ok I've rambled enough for now, not like anyone reads what I write anyway lol.

-Mark

Read by someone. ;)

[Warrax23]

Read by someone. ;)

Yikes, that's the beginning of the end!! DOOM! lol

[Basura_Grande]

Hp, past lives, gear... nothing can make you survive.

This is nonsense, the trash and non-bosses got toned down a lot. The Orthon who'd hit 150 PRR toons for 1700 is now hitting for 1000.

[slarden]

Hp, past lives, gear... nothing can make you survive.

I have been in there on LE with a true tank and nothing would kill him. He had no problem tanking even the end boss on LE and I never saw him dip below 500. They definitely hit hard, but you can still build a tank that can survive it. Even on my 1600 hp warlock with just above average defenses I wasn't getting one-hit in there although I often had additional temp hp beyond the 1600 with triple positive weapon and warlock abilities.

[Duetotheseverity]

coolstorybrotellitagain

[Tilomere]

This large gap is also why we have players getting one shot in LE content. Not because they are low end or shouldn’t be in there, it is because Turbine knows there is a huge gap but they also are not sure how high it goes.

At or near the top is Supreme Cleavage.

Everything else is a flavor build imo.

[Warrax23]

coolstorybrotellitagain

Well Timmy, there once was a game where people had to wait for what's called a healer, cleric if you would. And people got tired of waiting and waiting for these healers, and the healers got tired of 1003423 tells an hour asking for them to come join in a quest. So people stoped playing healers and so people started playing without them, and they whined and whined on the forums and the magic god fairies granted those whiners the wish, that they would no longer need to wait for healers. They made this game super easy and changed it so that the peasants could run quests and self heal, but at first it was just a few select peasant classes, then a peasant race, then a iconic peasant race. So now all of the peasant complain that the quests are too easy because their toons can do everything, and that's how we've gotten to the state we're in. The end.

Sorry couldn't resist.

[Warrax23]

At or near the top is Supreme Cleavage.

Everything else is a flavor build imo.

Thigh Gap and supreme cleavage? Are you in the right thread?

[Duetotheseverity]

Well Timmy, there once was a game where people had to wait for what's called a healer, cleric if you would. And people got tired of waiting and waiting for these healers, and the healers got tired of 1003423 tells an hour asking for them to come join in a quest. So people stoped playing healers and so people started playing without them, and they whined and whined on the forums and the magic god fairies granted those whiners the wish, that they would no longer need to wait for healers. They made this game super easy and changed it so that the peasants could run quests and self heal, but at first it was just a few select peasant classes, then a peasant race, then a iconic peasant race. So now all of the peasant complain that the quests are too easy because their toons can do everything, and that's how we've gotten to the state we're in. The end.

Sorry couldn't resist.

And for some ppl we have warlocks, to make it even more easier and lame, right Mimsy?

[Warrax23]

And for some ppl we have warlocks, to make it even more easier and lame.

Yeah the only class you could literally just hit auto run and go get a snack. lol (I have one I can't complain too much about it)

[Andoris]

I agree, really the scale should go to 20.


Or at least 11 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOO5S4vxi0o) :)

[MaeveTuohy]

Snipped

I will. I have several PD characters on Cannith in a PD guild. Lets go.

How are those PD runs going? Wish I could sell tickets and popcorn.

[Sam1313]

How are those PD runs going? Wish I could sell tickets and popcorn.

I don't know? I PM'd him with the time-details. No response as of yet.

[Gremmlynn]

Pre-u14 our only source of defenses were HP and AC, and AC only worked if you built for it. The only real source of self-healing were heal scrolls (not for mid-combat) and SF pots (huge penalty).

Now we have self-healing, PRR, MRR, dodge, etc... it's not "basement dwellers" with past lives.You missed the biggy. Enhancement pass. Then the subsequent class passes.

[Chai]

No, you are wrong. Completely wrong. I invite you and OP to play me in a perma death game first life and see. Of course PLs matter. I won't entertain arguments that they don't till u people get out of our Ivory towers and play me on a level field.

Past lives don't matter as much until you get into content which was designed after past life and EPL was in game. Ive done the permadeath thing in DDO going on 8 years now, and playing in the content which was designed before PLs is much easier now than it ever was. Someone can still level 1-20 in heroics with no past lives fairly easily and quickly because they can take a path which plays quests which were designed well before PLs and EPLs were implemented.

It becomes a different game when entering same level quests which were designed recently. For instance:

Play through heroic elite Gianthold walk ups, then play through heroic elite Trials of the Archons - all level 13 quests. Do this on a first life character who only used gear acquired in quests and end rewards. Those two experiences will be much different from one and other.

[MaeveTuohy]

I don't know? I PM'd him with the time-details. No response as of yet.

Maybe you called his bluff. Maybe he'll get back to you, you'll have a blast and become lifelong friends. Could be anything. Keep us informed.

[Grailhawk]

Play through heroic elite Gianthold walk ups, then play through heroic elite Trials of the Archons - all level 13 quests. Do this on a first life character who only used gear acquired in quests and end rewards. Those two experiences will be much different from one and other.

That's actually a really good level to see content difficulty changes, you can add in the Lordsmarch stuff that is harder then GH but weaker then Archons. This is very noticeable on classes that haven't had a pass yet also some of the classes that have had passes may not notice the different between GH and Lordsmarch but a class with out a mass will.

[Gremmlynn]

Past lives don't matter as much until you get into content which was designed after past life and EPL was in game. Ive done the permadeath thing in DDO going on 8 years now, and playing in the content which was designed before PLs is much easier now than it ever was. Someone can still level 1-20 in heroics with no past lives fairly easily and quickly because they can take a path which plays quests which were designed well before PLs and EPLs were implemented.

It becomes a different game when entering same level quests which were designed recently. For instance:

Play through heroic elite Gianthold walk ups, then play through heroic elite Trials of the Archons - all level 13 quests. Do this on a first life character who only used gear acquired in quests and end rewards. Those two experiences will be much different from one and other.I'd say it has more to do with playing through content from before the enhancement pass and subsequent class passes and before them. Toss in dodge, PRR/MRR and other things created from whole cloth and added to the game since those older quests came out and past lives look like the small potatoes they are and always have been. Basically, they are just what this game uses to keep players occupied for years after "getting to the cap".

[Gremmlynn]

That's actually a really good level to see content difficulty changes, you can add in the Lordsmarch stuff that is harder then GH but weaker then Archons. This is very noticeable on classes that haven't had a pass yet also some of the classes that have had passes may not notice the different between GH and Lordsmarch but a class with out a mass will.Hell, just go into Searing Heights and see the difference in content from when it was introduced and when "Sentinels of Stormreach" came out, which was long before past lives were making much of a difference to the game. Just the difference between the old mobs and those that were added.

Though even there one must look close to see any difference in today's game as both sets of mobs are just different shades of weak.

[Grailhawk]

Hell, just go into Searing Heights and see the difference in content from when it was introduced and when "Sentinels of Stormreach" came out, which was long before past lives were making much of a difference to the game. Just the difference between the old mobs and those that were added.

Right, that's another good place.

[redoubt]

OP, you are a good example of why past lives need to be removed for the good of the game. Thank you for your example! As you point out, you were a detrement to the fun of your entire group. From your description people just stopped playing and took on the role of Varsity Cheerleaders to watch you solo the quest and pick up their loot. This is obviously not good for the game. Clearly no one wants to play in this environment except other 1% players. No one wants to play a game where their characters are not relevant.

This aberration of TR power is not a creep - it is a chasm that eventually needs to be bridged.

I continue to urge the creation of a DDO Classic Server where these mini-Thor's are not allowed to dominate game play.

Actually, you are proving the OPs point that people do not understand the power gap as you obviously do not.

If it was as simple as you say, then players who have TR wings would always be more powerful than those without, but that is far, far from the truth. The build, knowledge of how to use it, meta-knowledge and gear are also part of the equation.

You continue to beat the drum of removing past lives, but you don't seem to understand just how empty the server (yes just one) would be after that.

[redoubt]

People might still feel their work is diminished and rage if it happened, so Turbine may never even try and address the issue, but at a minimum they should look at addressing it for DC casters where it makes the biggest difference.



I think rage would happen. Why would someone bother with past lives if the benefits did not stack?

As far as DC casters go, I don't think that is true, unless you mean spell penetration and not the DC itself.

Necro does not get DC from past lives.
Enchantment can get +1 from bard past life, but it costs a feat same as Spell Focus.
Evocation can get +3 DC, but this only affects druid earthquake and warlock tentacles.
Conjuration can get +3 DC, but I've not seen a web build in years so I don't think this is a big factor (but I could be wrong.)

Spell pen on the other hand does matter and you need it all to stack to run in LH or LE.

[Pnumbra]

Most of the things which work well are pure or near pure nowdays. Its much easier for even a newbie to stumble onto a pure paladin, pure ranger, pure bard etc....than it was when the most optimized builds were 12/6/2.

Even with that in mind, I would still also have to ask - what are new players doing in LE in the first place? If the expectation is that new players should be playing through the highest level quests on the highest difficulty setting, the rest of us (most of DDOs population) will be bored. People who run LN aren't missing much, as they can get their hands on the same loot, and earn higher xp per min.

Players, new or seasoned will run HE/EE/LE versions of quest as soon as they are capable. New players are not going to "good kids" and follow the steps of their elder gamers. That is laughable. If the Devs release something new, we new players want in, and that doesn't mean only playing at the entry level of the quest. Besides, as Chai mentioned, new players like vets begin to measure risk versus benefit. If I can get the same items on normal settings, what entices me to waste time and resources running the quest/raid on higher levels. What an ego trip that is.

The idea of a power gap is more mythical than it is reality. Basically, it is players complaining because their stick isn't as big as another's.

[Postumus]

This.

Melees are dead and so is the game. great job Turbine.


Melees are dead again?


I can't keep up with which build is the best at squeezing every last drop of power out of DDO, so I don't bother.

[Sam1313]

Maybe you called his bluff. Maybe he'll get back to you, you'll have a blast and become lifelong friends. Could be anything. Keep us informed.

I'm down for this. I am not his enemy right now lol. I know some people who used to feel/think just like he does until they themselves got a past life or 2. I actually do hope to become friends with him. We all should be friends here because we are all here for the same thing and that is DDO. We all love this game.

[redoubt]

2. Past lives don't matter! Wrong. Aprox...30% damage reduction, 25% elemental resistance, +80 HPs, +70 AC, +12 DMG to every hit, huge boosts to DCs and SP etc etc. You don't think all this adding up is huge? Of course it is. If it isn't then again, come play perma death with me as a first life character.


36 PRR when added to a character with 100 PRR is only a 7% increase in damage reduction. Your comment about 30% damage reduction is only valid if you assume that a character has zero PRR.

70 AC means nothing unless you add it to another 150 AC.

+12 damage assumes you are a ranged, non-spell casting character. Do all character fall into this? If not, we are talking about +3 from monk and +3 from arcane sphere for a total of +6 for melee.

I discussed how DCs from past lives are only really valid for 2 builds in my response to Slarden. (Who actually made a good post.)

The spell points from past lives are miniscule compared to total spell points when I see casters running with 5000+ spell point (I don't even know how they get there.)

They don't add up to huge because on any given character you only take advantage of a small percentage of the past live abilities.

Lastly, I have played perma-death. I played a druid up to level 5 and got bored and missed my friends who were not interested, so I stopped doing that. Though I do understand the draw of that playstyle and agree is it more challenging.

p.s. if you are talking about having that stuff at level 1, then sure, its stupid powerful, but take that same stuff into LE and its a much smaller increase. I completely agree that none of it is needed in the old heroic content. (High end EE and LE content I find myself scraping for every point I can get and each of those points is very hard to come by due to diminishing returns at high level.)

[Brac]

Players, new or seasoned will run HE/EE/LE versions of quest as soon as they are capable. New players are not going to "good kids" and follow the steps of their elder gamers. That is laughable. If the Devs release something new, we new players want in, and that doesn't mean only playing at the entry level of the quest. Besides, as Chai mentioned, new players like vets begin to measure risk versus benefit. If I can get the same items on normal settings, what entices me to waste time and resources running the quest/raid on higher levels. What an ego trip that is.

The idea of a power gap is more mythical than it is reality. Basically, it is players complaining because their stick isn't as big as another's.

The power gap is not mythical it is quite obvious. What I have been been stating is that the gap is much larger then people realize. We have people doing 400 DPS and people doing 5000 DPS running content together. And it is not really a new vs. old player gap. It is more of a build/synergy gap. The vets just have an advantage of being more likely to be able to recognize what works well or is "powered".

Others are making an argument that past lives are the cause of this gap. They are a contributor but I don't believe the entire problem.

[redoubt]

I've now Played 43 different characters to at least Lvl 20 {Heroic Cap}.
I have 29 Characters who've TRd at least once.
I have 11 Characters who've TR'd at least twice. One of those is on his 5th Life and 2 are 4th Lifers.
I've ERd a number of times too.
And have one character capped at 30 right now.

And the difference between 1st and 2nd Life is NIGHT and DAY!

Just ONE TR makes a HUGE difference!
Imagine what 14 of them do!
.

The difference from first life to second life is mathematically the biggest, but I'd hardly say its night and day. It is 2 (TWO) build points. Then TR1 to TR2 is another 2 build points (same increase in build points and fractionally less mathematically.)

Every other past life adds less because they do not add build points. Also, as you add the little ticks from past lives, each is less because what it adds is less each time in terms of what you are adding in relation to what you have.

The way you post I had assumed you played end game a lot, I was surprised to find that your game play is nearly exclusively heroic.

[FranOhmsford]

The power gap is not mythical it is quite obvious. What I have been been stating is that the gap is much larger then people realize. We have people doing 400 DPS and people doing 5000 DPS running content together. And it is not really a new vs. old player gap. It is more of a build/synergy gap. The vets just have an advantage of being more likely to be able to recognize what works well or is "powered".

Others are making an argument that past lives are the cause of this gap. They are a contributor but I don't believe the entire problem.

Now this is a post I can agree with!

No attacks on so called "Lesser" Players, Just statements of fact!

Build/Synergy does not equal "Better Player", The Same player can have one Build perfectly attuned for EE while an alt without those Synergies is barely capable of EHs!

Past Lives are a contributor that's for certain - the exact amount is obviously going to be subjective opinion {I think it's quite a bit higher than some people like to make out!} BUT no they're not the entire problem!
As I've stated before....EDs are the biggest arbiter in Epics by far! {Having them all done and being in the one that suits your build that is!}.


P.S. I got Lieuk back up to 20 yesterday on his 3rd Life {Ftr 12/Monk 7/Clr 1 - Wraps Build} and was actually surprised when I joined a Group for EH GH tonight and contributed {at Lvl 20! And without gearing him up from the TR Cache...I forgot to do so.}.
No I wasn't the top of the Kill Count but had a good 20 {23 I think} at the end of Cry for Help.
I still believe he was actually MORE optimized on his 1st Life {Pure Monk} than he is now {1 Unremovable Cleric Level hurts optimization!} BUT He has 1 Monk and 1 Fighter Past Life + FOUR Epic Past Lives, All EDs maxed and is in Full US with 900+ HPs at Lvl 20! {Something he had absolutely no chance of having on his 1st Life!}.

[FranOhmsford]

The difference from first life to second life is mathematically the biggest, but I'd hardly say its night and day. It is 2 (TWO) build points. Then TR1 to TR2 is another 2 build points (same increase in build points and fractionally less mathematically.)

Every other past life adds less because they do not add build points. Also, as you add the little ticks from past lives, each is less because what it adds is less each time in terms of what you are adding in relation to what you have.

All those little ticks add up to a whole lot - People seem to be ignoring Epic Past Lives btw which are in my view much stronger than Heroic Past Lives and provide HUGE bonuses!

As for 1st Life to second - It's not just the 2 Build Points...Although denigrating those is in my view wrong as they allow for a secondary or tertiary stat to be buffed providing a larger bonus than people realise and allowing more Build Choice for MAD Builds.
Now add in all the Gear you accumulated on your first life, the meta knowledge you accumulated too {although having run so many first life characters and still running them that's not as big a thing as people like to make it out to be - My second life builds are invariably better!} AND maybe being able to start off your second life with a couple of EDs done and a Twist {Cocoon for instance!}.


The way you post I had assumed you played end game a lot, I was surprised to find that your game play is nearly exclusively heroic.

You really can't have read many of my posts then - I've never made any bones about the way I play and have indeed stated on many many occasions that the only reason I ever run EEs is Favour/Sagas {Same reason really as once I've run those Sagas once I'm not running them again on the same Life}.
Any Quest that I can get the Favour from Heroic and isn't part of a Saga I will run on Heroic {Even if I'm Lvl 30 when I get to that Quest!} because all I want from it is the Favour!


And it's because I can actually still see the requirements for EE that means I actually have a better view of things than those guys who already one-shot everything in EE {they no longer have any idea of how much harder EE is than EH for instance as to them there's no difference!}.

[LongshotBro]

Here is my drop the mike for all the mini-Thors. Back in the day of this game there used to be an end game raid called Tower of Depair. Now when this raid came out it could not be PUG'd. Only the top few guilds on each server could finish this raid. To do it on elite? That needed the best of the best elite guilds. These players weren't mini-Thors, they were good players. They lived in a world with +3 tomes, they needed a tank on bosses, they needed healing. They had to work together. That was years ago. Since then people have added massive PL bonuses. Now they crush everything. This OP wasn't in one of those elite guilds but now he crushes and he brags that he is uber. So what has happened? DDO has let this aberration of TR stacking to let people who play in a basement under their Mom's house to accumulate so much power they have broken the game. This was never a problem when ToD was being run. Why? Cause the best players were evident then weren't they? Now the basement trolls of 50 past lives have taken over the game instead.

Summary: There was no power gap in ToD era was there? Some PCs had power cause they had a +3 INT tome or a SoS but all were in the same curve. Now the gap is so wide the Pacific Ocean couldint fill it.

To be fair, "back in the day" there was also no PRR, MRR, melee power, ranged power, spell power, enhancements were much more limited, gear wasn't as prevalent, tomes weren't as prevalent and i'm sure several other things that didn't spring to mind in the 30 seconds it took to type that list.

The crusade to wipe away the earned rewards offered to players for the past several years is not going to happen, and does not have as huge an impact as this line of thinking would have everyone believe. Does it have an impact? yes, of course. But it's not the end-all be-all.

The issue for DDO is that they've changed teams so many times, added and abandoned systems, etc. and it is apparently a Herculean challenge to scale these things.

There's a wide range in playerbase because of a lot of things, like game knowledge, meta knowledge and yes, PLs that are simply a part of the system. It's an old game with an inconsistent history. that's just the way it is.

[LongshotBro]

I've now Played 43 different characters to at least Lvl 20 {Heroic Cap}.
I have 29 Characters who've TRd at least once.
I have 11 Characters who've TR'd at least twice. One of those is on his 5th Life and 2 are 4th Lifers.
I've ERd a number of times too.
And have one character capped at 30 right now.

And the difference between 1st and 2nd Life is NIGHT and DAY!

Just ONE TR makes a HUGE difference!
Imagine what 14 of them do!

I still have multiple 1st Life Characters and I still create Characters on other Servers where I don't have all the gear I have on my main Servers or Lvl 90+ Ship Buffs!
I have secondary and tertiary accounts that are F2P and don't have the benefits of my main account too {2 characters on one of those Accounts are now 2nd Lifers!}.


Another thing that vets don't get is the difference having maxed out all Destinies and being able to run through Epics in your Main Destiny with the right Twists makes!
It doesn't matter as much as they think what your main Destiny is {I personally HATE Leg Dread and am not impressed with DC! - My Characters do better in other destinies because my playstyle doesn't fit in with those two no matter how good they're supposed to be!}.
I'll never play a Blitzer Mechanic - By the time I get Blitz on those Characters I'll be moving on to another Destiny! {If this means my DPS isn't as good as they say it should be then so be it!}.
But I'm getting off topic so back to my point:
A 1st Lifer just starting off in Epics is at an INCREDIBLE disadvantage compared even to someone who's got just 2 ERs done {2 ERs = 8 Destinies maxed now}.
Heroic Past Lives are weaker than Epic Past Lives when it comes to Epics. Especially when you add in the Grind to do all your Destinies - A 5th Lifer coming back from a couple years absence who hasn't started his Epic Grind yet is behind a 1st Lifer with a couple of ERs who's able to run in her main Destiny! But that 5th Lifer will catch up fast because the Heroic Past Lives he's already done count for something too and he'll complete his EDs and a couple ERs far faster than the 1st Lifer will get to 5th Life!


Most importantly of all; It's the cumulative effect of all those Past Lives, EDs, ERs, The Gear accumulated along the way AND the Meta Knowledge accumulated along the way!
It's not just ONE Part....It's the WHOLE!



P.S. My Warlock having completed the Arcane Sphere which she had to start in and got through the Melee Sphere and maxed US is now Rank 21 EA.
And once EA {and DC} is done she'll be going back to US! {No I'm not going to do the Primal Sphere on her - There's no point!}.
Fatesinger was good too but US is easily the best Destiny for her - Far better than EA {the one that everyone goes on about!}.
My Monk {now 3rd Life} maxed every destiny on his 1st Life and is now running Morninglord Fighter/Monk Lives with one Cleric Level IN US {GMoF is actually probably better - US doesn't provide the PRR that GMoF does but does provide far more HPs - Yes HP beats PRR and DR when you're talking about Vigor of Battle vs Unbreakable! And definitely when talking anout US vs Every other Destiny!
You're expected to have...what was it...1200 hps on a melee toon now? Well the ONLY way I can get that on that toon is in US {And even then I'm not sure!}.

I got to this part and thought to myself, well, yeah, DUH.

Fran, I've been reading your posts for years and honestly, you are an enigma. With all the characters your play and time you've spent playing, your posts make it seem like you have next to know knowledge of DDO. "Another thing that vets don't get" --> YOU ARE A VET

You know what a lot of vets don't get? Why they play a game and work within a provided system that does not seem accountable to either them or new players.

[Pnumbra]

The power gap is not mythical it is quite obvious. What I have been been stating is that the gap is much larger then people realize. We have people doing 400 DPS and people doing 5000 DPS running content together. And it is not really a new vs. old player gap. It is more of a build/synergy gap. The vets just have an advantage of being more likely to be able to recognize what works well or is "powered".

Others are making an argument that past lives are the cause of this gap. They are a contributor but I don't believe the entire problem.

The gap you talk about is part of the very thing that makes us different. Physical damage in the realm of 5000 is nothing different than the 5000 damage casters do. I'm not a vet by any means, and I can do that kind of damage in the right environment. In others, I do less, but the point is, I can compete. So, Brac, I am sorry. I think you are missing an underlying point. Gamers, D&Ders, don't care as long as we are successful in the quest.

Your comment about build/synergy is said like you and a few select others are the only ones who can build a character. Are you suggesting that new players (under a year in DDO) can't figure things out? The learning curve is not that steep. Hell, I have taught some vets a thing or two. I agree that certain builds have internal limitations but they also have internal strengths. The so called gap happens when they abandon their toon's idea and try to do everything so called vets suggest they do...becoming just like everyone else...a copy.

When Varg said the Devs wanted players to build anything they wanted, I was mortified. That is not D&D regardless of the version. D&D has build boundaries and DDO has blurred even eliminated those boundaries. Your gap is mythical because it is really just design confusion.

Players doing 500 DPS questing with players doing 5,000 DPS is good. It shows the players are learning to work together. Clerics have low DPS but their healing powers far out weighs DPS because they ensure survivability. You are also assuming new players like a mind, how insulting. I know what works well for the classes I play and they are tested each day I play. EE quest are not challenging, they are encumbering time sinks, with little pay off. More importantly, well balanced vets are over eager to show off allowing casual and new players to syphon information for letter use. Eventually new players become vets themselves.

I understand you wanting to share this warning, but trust me, there is no cause. The power gap remains a myth, as new players assimilate information in their daily play. The true creators of power displacement is the Devs team. Their reluctance to build in boundaries has caused you and others to pull the alarm on the symptoms. The problem remains operative in the silo of Dev bias and control. I am hoping Serv will get a handle on this in 2016. He did a good job in Acheron's Call.

[Postumus]

It becomes a different game when entering same level quests which were designed recently. For instance:

Play through heroic elite Gianthold walk ups, then play through heroic elite Trials of the Archons - all level 13 quests. Do this on a first life character who only used gear acquired in quests and end rewards. Those two experiences will be much different from one and other.


Instead of building the heroic content to be appropriate for the heroic level and then scale up for epic, they tried to build tough epic content and then scale down. See how well that's worked?

[FranOhmsford]

Instead of building the heroic content to be appropriate for the heroic level and then scale up for epic, they tried to build tough epic content and then scale down. See how well that's worked?

Spot on!

The New Heroic Quests in Amrath, Meridia and around Stormreach are set up to challenge Epic Players with huge AoE damage capabilities and massive defenses.

When scaled down to Heroic the Mobs are basically unplayable for Heroic Builds that don't have those AoEs or Defenses!

How am I supposed to run Heroic Elite Demon Assault for instance on my Wis Build Melee Monk or my Arti/Rogue? The answer is neither of those characters can run that quest at or anywhere near at level unless I basically pike!

Heroic Elite Grim and Barrett? Exactly the same! The Mob Damage capabilities {aimed strictly at challenging Epic Elite capable Characters} are way too much for many Heroic Characters!


The problem is that the scaling down hasn't included reducing the number of mobs in each Spawn - yes the mob damage is much lower than in EEs but it's still more than High enough to make those quests a nightmare for many at Level Heroic Characters!

Don't tell me to run Heroic Hard or Heroic Normal:
1) Why would I run those quests TWICE? I need the Elite Favour and if necessary I'll go back and get that at Lvl 30 anyway!
2) I'm not going to pause my BB for one quest - I'll just skip that Quest till later when I can grab the Favour Solo!
3) The biggest issue with running Heroic Hard or Heroic Normal is who am I gonna run it with? I don't mind Soloing but I'd prefer to have the Choice and if I'm gonna have to solo it I'll do so over-level for the Favour!

Running one or two levels over BB = Same problem - No-one to run with! {Again I don't mind Soloing...I'd just prefer it be MY choice!



Quests scaled up to Epics suffer their own issues BUT nowhere near as bad as those that have been scaled down!



P.S. Archon's Trial trap optional - I still don't understand this optional at all!
Why wasn't that placed to bypass the insane second trial rather than the pith easy first trial? The ONLY reason to do that Trap Gauntlet right now is to get Ingenious!

[-Avalon-]

As for the new players always running HE/EE/LE... I think some are missing obvious reasons why. When someone is new to a job, they usually train with a person that's been at the job for some time. When a person is new to karate, they train with a person who is (supposedly) a master... This is shown in several other instances too numerous to list. Does anyone really think new players come to this game thinking, 'no one is running any F2P quests on normal. I guess I should just solo it.'? No, they're new, have no idea if a quest IS solo able, or even what they're supposed to do... As time progresses, they get higher level, but that only exposes them to more NEW material... If the veteran players refuse to play anything below hard, do we really expect new players (as few as they are) to just jump in and solo the game, or do we think they might feel STRONG pulls towards tagging along with veterans, even if they actually hinder the group by being new? And, when vets DO group with them, are they being mentors, or are they frustratedly plugging along and if the newbie gets in trouble just writing them off 'their own fault!' Or something similar? And then suggesting the newb stick to normal/casual (where no one is, so basically telling the newbies to go solo, which is exactly what they won't do most times, and then the game loses another player)

Just my thoughts...

[Chai]

Instead of building the heroic content to be appropriate for the heroic level and then scale up for epic, they tried to build tough epic content and then scale down. See how well that's worked?

How about comparing those level 15 quests in FR (no epic equivalent) to the level 16 quests in Eberron.

You will see again that the older stuff is much easier to beat, even though its a level higher.

I didn't compare them to older level 15 content of course because there is only one level 15 old era eberron quest.

We have also seen what happens when they attempt to scale heroic quests into epic. You get epic rats, dogs, and bats with blanket immunities - not exactly the better formula.

[Qhualor]

Spot on!

The New Heroic Quests in Amrath, Meridia and around Stormreach are set up to challenge Epic Players with huge AoE damage capabilities and massive defenses.

When scaled down to Heroic the Mobs are basically unplayable for Heroic Builds that don't have those AoEs or Defenses!

How am I supposed to run Heroic Elite Demon Assault for instance on my Wis Build Melee Monk or my Arti/Rogue? The answer is neither of those characters can run that quest at or anywhere near at level unless I basically pike!

Heroic Elite Grim and Barrett? Exactly the same! The Mob Damage capabilities {aimed strictly at challenging Epic Elite capable Characters} are way too much for many Heroic Characters!


The problem is that the scaling down hasn't included reducing the number of mobs in each Spawn - yes the mob damage is much lower than in EEs but it's still more than High enough to make those quests a nightmare for many at Level Heroic Characters!

Don't tell me to run Heroic Hard or Heroic Normal:
1) Why would I run those quests TWICE? I need the Elite Favour and if necessary I'll go back and get that at Lvl 30 anyway!
2) I'm not going to pause my BB for one quest - I'll just skip that Quest till later when I can grab the Favour Solo!
3) The biggest issue with running Heroic Hard or Heroic Normal is who am I gonna run it with? I don't mind Soloing but I'd prefer to have the Choice and if I'm gonna have to solo it I'll do so over-level for the Favour!

Running one or two levels over BB = Same problem - No-one to run with! {Again I don't mind Soloing...I'd just prefer it be MY choice!



Quests scaled up to Epics suffer their own issues BUT nowhere near as bad as those that have been scaled down!



P.S. Archon's Trial trap optional - I still don't understand this optional at all!
Why wasn't that placed to bypass the insane second trial rather than the pith easy first trial? The ONLY reason to do that Trap Gauntlet right now is to get Ingenious!

those heroic Amrath quests and the Portable Hole chain biggest threat in damage is the element damage. its no different in epics. when I did ranger past lives in those quests I just shrugged off most of the damage with reflex saves. without evasion, I know I can solo those quests because ive done it many times, but I prefer with a group because a hire dies way too easily from element damage and you can take massive damage all at once since the mobs are grouped together. in Demon Assault, I see too many players try to fight the mobs in the blades. I just stand there and watch them die than I pull the mobs to me away from the blades and tell them the shrine is around the corner.

I wont tell you to run a lower difficulty if you cant handle elite. weve been down this road before. you need your favor and you need your BB refusing to not pause it. those quests may not always fill and fill right away, but players do join them. you love hires, so you could have an army of them.

[Brac]

The gap you talk about is part of the very thing that makes us different. Physical damage in the realm of 5000 is nothing different than the 5000 damage casters do. I'm not a vet by any means, and I can do that kind of damage in the right environment. In others, I do less, but the point is, I can compete. So, Brac, I am sorry. I think you are missing an underlying point. Gamers, D&Ders, don't care as long as we are successful in the quest.

Your comment about build/synergy is said like you and a few select others are the only ones who can build a character. Are you suggesting that new players (under a year in DDO) can't figure things out? The learning curve is not that steep. Hell, I have taught some vets a thing or two. I agree that certain builds have internal limitations but they also have internal strengths. The so called gap happens when they abandon their toon's idea and try to do everything so called vets suggest they do...becoming just like everyone else...a copy.

When Varg said the Devs wanted players to build anything they wanted, I was mortified. That is not D&D regardless of the version. D&D has build boundaries and DDO has blurred even eliminated those boundaries. Your gap is mythical because it is really just design confusion.

Players doing 500 DPS questing with players doing 5,000 DPS is good. It shows the players are learning to work together. Clerics have low DPS but their healing powers far out weighs DPS because they ensure survivability. You are also assuming new players like a mind, how insulting. I know what works well for the classes I play and they are tested each day I play. EE quest are not challenging, they are encumbering time sinks, with little pay off. More importantly, well balanced vets are over eager to show off allowing casual and new players to syphon information for letter use. Eventually new players become vets themselves.

I understand you wanting to share this warning, but trust me, there is no cause. The power gap remains a myth, as new players assimilate information in their daily play. The true creators of power displacement is the Devs team. Their reluctance to build in boundaries has caused you and others to pull the alarm on the symptoms. The problem remains operative in the silo of Dev bias and control. I am hoping Serv will get a handle on this in 2016. He did a good job in Acheron's Call.

I know this thread is 11 pages right now but there is no way you could have read even the first page and replied like this. Instead of taking immediate offense to some perceived deficiency in your game please read the OP and think about what it actually says. I am not comparing classes. I am not stating that a cleric does little damage compared to a Barbarian. I am not comparing player skill. I never said good players do lots of DPS and bad players do little. These are things you are implying by your off base response.

This entire thread is pointing out a large gap between characters playing at level cap. Level 30. The main discussion involves DPS. There are people playing EE content doing small amounts of damage and not realizing how little it is compared to other players. The examples I use involve people dealing DPS in the hundreds not realizing that their counterparts are dealing DPS in the thousands.

Obvious pieces of this discussion involves talking about classes that have been updated vs. those that have not. Think, a level 30 fighter vs. a level 30 Barbarian. If you knew one was doing 300 DPS and the other is doing 3000 DPS which would you guess is which based on the game currently as you know it? This discussion also involves 2 different people, both playing level 30 paladins yet one deals 500 DPS and the other deals 2000 DPS. The difference based on build choices. Past lives have also entered the fray and are relevant to the discussion.

Denial of a power gap reveals one of two things. Either you are just trying to argue or you are ignorant to the power gap. If you just want to argue I have no time for it. If you are ignorant to the power gap then this thread is for you. You may not realize how much DPS well built characters do when compared to poorly built ones.

This isn't a new player vs. vet discussion. It is not a good player vs. bad player discussion. This entire discussion is about powered characters vs. underpowered characters.



Don't tell me to run Heroic Hard or Heroic Normal:
1) Why would I run those quests TWICE? I need the Elite Favour and if necessary I'll go back and get that at Lvl 30 anyway!
2) I'm not going to pause my BB for one quest - I'll just skip that Quest till later when I can grab the Favour Solo!
3) The biggest issue with running Heroic Hard or Heroic Normal is who am I gonna run it with? I don't mind Soloing but I'd prefer to have the Choice and if I'm gonna have to solo it I'll do so over-level for the Favour!

Running one or two levels over BB = Same problem - No-one to run with! {Again I don't mind Soloing...I'd just prefer it be MY choice!


Couple things Fran.

The discussion at its core about the DPS power gap is really an end game discussion. And by that I mean level 30. You do not spend enough time at level 30 or have characters that play at the current EE content on a regular basis. You do not have sufficient experience to contribute to this discussion. You opinion is not relevant because you do not play at level 30.

If we are having a discussion about a power gap at heroic then you can be our expert. When talking about DPS in EE content you shouldn't be posting. This is not an insult to your play skill. It is not an insult to you personally. It is a fact based on the information you have shared about how you play the game.

To further clear things up and the reason I used the snippet from the quote above, people like you are one of the reasons the gap becomes a problem. You feel you are entitled to run elite content. You are not. When you complain it is challenging and want it watered down and the devs respond to your request, this is what makes the game too easy. You should be running normal or hard based on the power level of your characters (notice I did not say play skill of you). You run elite because you feel entitled and want the rewards. You are the problem. What happens next is other people with your same mentality don't TR, they start playing EE quests, because they are entitled, and they are useless in the quests. They are not bad people, they are not bad players, many just do not realize how far behind the curve their DPS is.

[Holymunchkin]

Couple things Fran.

The discussion at its core about the DPS power gap is really an end game discussion. And by that I mean level 30. You do not spend enough time at level 30 or have characters that play at the current EE content on a regular basis. You do not have sufficient experience to contribute to this discussion. You opinion is not relevant because you do not play at level 30.

If we are having a discussion about a power gap at heroic then you can be our expert. When talking about DPS in EE content you shouldn't be posting. This is not an insult to your play skill. It is not an insult to you personally. It is a fact based on the information you have shared about how you play the game.

To further clear things up and the reason I used the snippet from the quote above, people like you are one of the reasons the gap becomes a problem. You feel you are entitled to run elite content. You are not. When you complain it is challenging and want it watered down and the devs respond to your request, this is what makes the game too easy. You should be running normal or hard based on the power level of your characters (notice I did not say play skill of you). You run elite because you feel entitled and want the rewards. You are the problem. What happens next is other people with your same mentality don't TR, they start playing EE quests, because they are entitled, and they are useless in the quests. They are not bad people, they are not bad players, many just do not realize how far behind the curve their DPS is.

+1, there are many silly posts on subjects where the poster does not have experience
it is extremely frequent on these forums and the cause for much confusion and laughter
everyone feels their opinion is relevant, myself included

[Marshal_Lannes]

To be fair, "back in the day" there was also no PRR, MRR, melee power, ranged power, spell power, enhancements were much more limited, gear wasn't as prevalent, tomes weren't as prevalent and i'm sure several other things that didn't spring to mind in the 30 seconds it took to type that list.

The crusade to wipe away the earned rewards offered to players for the past several years is not going to happen, and does not have as huge an impact as this line of thinking would have everyone believe. Does it have an impact? yes, of course. But it's not the end-all be-all.

The issue for DDO is that they've changed teams so many times, added and abandoned systems, etc. and it is apparently a Herculean challenge to scale these things.

There's a wide range in playerbase because of a lot of things, like game knowledge, meta knowledge and yes, PLs that are simply a part of the system. It's an old game with an inconsistent history. that's just the way it is.

Yes, all the things you mention, PRR/MRR, melee power etc have given massive increases to player power. They have made characters more powerful but the game much worse. In the back in the day example you had an end game and the gap in power wasn't that great. The difference between a great melee character on a server and a good one was probably the eSoS. Some characters had GS HP items so were a bit more hardy. A Great PM might have a Torq and a DC couple points higher than a new PM.

Now, as the OP points out the DPS gap is massive. In a casters/DC post we had here months back high end PMs are getting DCs 30 points higher than a new PM. This has basically broken the game. So the question that needs to be asked why did the game work back in the day and it doesn't work now (in a group setting) and what can be done to restore the group setting.

Note: the game is broken at epic levels. Heroic game play is still tons of fun except when you end up grouping with the 50 life set because the stacking epic/heroic past lives completely overpower all heroic content.

[Holyavatar]

I still dont understand people keep complaining in the forums..This is a PVE game,people who is "uber" do not against you at all..If you think there is too much "powercreep",why not just drop the game or play with friends have the same opinion?In addition,everytime turbine devs try to fix sth,it usually became worse imo..Mok,greensteel dot etc...However,when the true problem comes(duping),they seated there and pretend there is nothing happened for a long time..

[Qezuzu]

Now, as the OP points out the DPS gap is massive. In a casters/DC post we had here months back high end PMs are getting DCs 30 points higher than a new PM. This has basically broken the game. So the question that needs to be asked why did the game work back in the day and it doesn't work now (in a group setting) and what can be done to restore the group setting.



Easy, the game at cap is more complex at lvl30 than it was years ago at lvl20.

Taking defenses for example, cause I forget what all there was for DC casting pre-u14:

pre-u14 defenses checklist:
-100% fort
-Minos, GS HP item, GFL item, +6 CON item, Toughness feat
-heal amp items
-SF pots, Heal Scrolls
-niche items with limited applications (e.g 10/15/20% fire absorption stick, AC items)

u29 defenses checklist:
-Fortification (at least 150)
-L/GS HP item, Vitality item, false life item, +8 CON (at least), insightful CON item, Primal past lives
-Dodge item, Shadar-ki past lives, MDB-raising items
-sheltering item, insightful/quality sheltering item, divine/pdk past lives, etc.
-Ghostly item
-GS Displacement clickies
-LGS unconscious range item
-MRR item, insightful MRR item, warlock past lives (if using med/heavy armor)
-heal amp items
-spell absorbtion items
-SF pots, Cocoon, Devotions augment

Etcetera, etcetera...

Someone pre-14 who is playing the game without much guidance, and isn't gearing their character as well as they could is not that far behind. This person is probably a few items away from being mostly optimal (+6 CON, Minos, GFL) and another couple items from being very well geared (GS HP item, Epic Claw set).

Someone u29 who is playing the game without much guidance, and isn't gearing their character as well as they could could be missing out on a ton of defenses. At lvl30 I often see toons who have 700 to 800 HP, which is a large percentage below your typical level of HP of well-made characters, which starts at 1.1k. And on top of having 30% less HP, they might be taking twice as much damage because they only have 60ish PRR, and being hit twice as often because they don't have GS Displacement clickies, and they heal twice as slowly because they don't have Iron Mitts+Mysterious Cloak, etc. etc.

That's the power gap. For defenses. Experienced player is signifcantly more survivable than a new player by an order of magnitude. It's no longer as simple as getting Knost's Belt+Minos Legens, and understanding that base 8 CON isn't okay; there are so many very significant bonuses and tricks a new player could miss.

You could probably make similar lists with damage and DCs.

[Qezuzu]

--

Oh, and as for "solutions":

Maybe instead of asking Turbine to nerf everything, remove PL bonuses, rebuild the game from the ground up, etc. people could help new players, put in their bio "if you want any tips on improving your character just ask!", write some comprehensive guides on the forums on how to increase [some stat], and so on.

[Nhennan]

I for one love the power gap! It's motivational!

When I first started, I thought my good ol' dwarf sword and board was cool. He did a great job with supporting squishy guildies. I still remember our first (traumatic) run as a full party through epic elite Lords of Dust and the multiple (read lots and lots) of deaths at the end fight. Nowadays, I can solo that at L20 during the ER/ITR cycle.

This has come about through EDs, ETRs, gear accumulation, knowledge accumulation, increased skill etc. While my current toon is pretty cool (in my view) and has good defences and can sustain around 3000 dps, he is still not top tier. I've proved this with various PUGs where you get to see some top tier toons. This gives me something to aim for a reason to continue ER/ITR etc. It's about satisfaction and then helping guildies.

The interesting thing is that many of the top toons are interesting - they are often different (not cookie cutter) and achieve their results through combination of (differing) methods. In short, there is more than one way to skin the cat and this provides the variation to keep the game interesting.

So, do I worry about the power differential? Hell no! I embrace it!

[Brac]

I for one love the power gap! It's motivational!

When I first started, I thought my good ol' dwarf sword and board was cool. He did a great job with supporting squishy guildies. I still remember our first (traumatic) run as a full party through epic elite Lords of Dust and the multiple (read lots and lots) of deaths at the end fight. Nowadays, I can solo that at L20 during the ER/ITR cycle.

This has come about through EDs, ETRs, gear accumulation, knowledge accumulation, increased skill etc. While my current toon is pretty cool (in my view) and has good defences and can sustain around 3000 dps, he is still not top tier. I've proved this with various PUGs where you get to see some top tier toons. This gives me something to aim for a reason to continue ER/ITR etc. It's about satisfaction and then helping guildies.

The interesting thing is that many of the top toons are interesting - they are often different (not cookie cutter) and achieve their results through combination of (differing) methods. In short, there is more than one way to skin the cat and this provides the variation to keep the game interesting.

So, do I worry about the power differential? Hell no! I embrace it!

Good post. I feel the reason you were able to improve the character is because you realized more was possible. In a nutshell all I am doing with this thread is letting people know what is possible.

I don't understand why some people stick thier head in the sand and deny a gap exists and others are taking it as a personal attack that I pointed this out. I can only assume it is because they may be underpowered.

Some people try to change the rules of the game, that is very difficult and takes a very long time if it does happen. I feel it is a much better to acknowledge the rules and then do the best you can within them. The first step is knowing what is possible.

Gratz on having fun with the game and on your character improvement.

[eris2323]

I for one love the power gap! It's motivational!

When I first started, I thought my good ol' dwarf sword and board was cool. He did a great job with supporting squishy guildies. I still remember our first (traumatic) run as a full party through epic elite Lords of Dust and the multiple (read lots and lots) of deaths at the end fight. Nowadays, I can solo that at L20 during the ER/ITR cycle.

This has come about through EDs, ETRs, gear accumulation, knowledge accumulation, increased skill etc. While my current toon is pretty cool (in my view) and has good defences and can sustain around 3000 dps, he is still not top tier. I've proved this with various PUGs where you get to see some top tier toons. This gives me something to aim for a reason to continue ER/ITR etc. It's about satisfaction and then helping guildies.

The interesting thing is that many of the top toons are interesting - they are often different (not cookie cutter) and achieve their results through combination of (differing) methods. In short, there is more than one way to skin the cat and this provides the variation to keep the game interesting.

So, do I worry about the power differential? Hell no! I embrace it!
Agree with all of this... if there is no gap, there is nothing to work towards... it also inspired me to do as many tr's as possible. Which has kept me in the game over these many years!

[AzureDragonas]

Note: the game is broken at epic levels. Heroic game play is still tons of fun except when you end up grouping with the 50 life set because the stacking epic/heroic past lives completely overpower all heroic content.

You still miss point. Even my no tr archmage is overpowering heroic now. It's all up to build, that build don't even have ed unlocked wasn't playing him for years, and he still able to zerg Elite vale at 16 using lvl 8 gear from chests. Picking kinetic lore item and some impulse and (new insight impulse) arcane blast easily crit for 1000-1500 with near 50% chance if monster fails reflex. You know how much in vale monsters have hp? just about half of my damage on elite. We can argue all day about differences of "experience" etc. But before blaming new content for being too hard make some research and you prob notice that those new quests on normal is ~same hard as older quests on elite. Most classes specialy in heroics and specialy casters are strong in heroics for a simple reason they can without too much investment {thx to devs free spell power etc items}, do twice damage than monsters have hp, how monster having half hp of my damage can hurt me? It can do 100-200 base damage as far as i care, but that monster wont touch neither me nor other casters as long as hp is too low to handle single spell while i have rotation of maybe 7 force spells to throw. Same build which crushed elite vale with ease, soloed creeping death in hour without deaths and it was way more fun becouse of that.

There is no gap between players as somone try to imply, but there are only gap between point of view. Till you see somone better than you doing more than you, it's hard to realize there is more where you can improve and what to achieve. I play also for a long time and there was newer so easy to attain gear as it is now. We played game without this uber trash loot you can find in chests, without having prr, self heals as there are now etc and that's why there are so many veterans, they lived up in environemnt where elite was so hard most ppl did it being overlevel with houses buffs for resistances. All that environment teached us how to adapt and build how to think out of box and not blindly focus on single stuff like damage or prr, at least most of us. MOST OF US LEARNED TO COMBINE STUFF TO ACHIEVE BEST PERFORMANCE OF BUILD. No one was doing 4 number digit damage in mid heroics like 10-12 levels. Sadly there are dozen who can already crit before unlocking T5 at 12 over 1k that's how far PK went. Grouping was needed and that's what made game interesting, small population was able to solo and most were grouping. It's all lost becouse people are too self-centered instead of blaming themselves for being not enough experienced or not ready to run, they blame game which already gives most stuff on silver plate, all they need to do it to pick.

Inability to see out of box thats why so many people fails so hard in new quests. These new quests are closest to what current veterans had to deal with long time ago, and most existing elite after all these passes become casual elite similiar to newest packs on normal. Content downgrade is worst thing which can happen, becouse it limits space where players can improve, if you already dominate content there are no reason to improve left. Not stomping everything arround, but grouping and goal to improve that keeps people occupied mostly.

Some new mechanic which alows normal reward similiar as elite (favor/xp) and making elite reward bit more {without bb, with better loot chance} but making it as newest elite quests designed not to solo but for group run, gives more experience

[brzytki]

.

From what i understand you are one of the newer players here and don't really know the history and changes DDO has gone through over the years. As others pointed out, you think you deserve the same level of power as some of us who have played the game for a number of years. I'd like to say that many of us had to really struggle and put big effort to get the PLs we have now. I know a guy who was one of the first completionists on G-land when there was only a handful quests in lvl 17-19 range, when the quests' xp was lower, when the xp curve was steep as hell near the cap, when the ransack mechanic worked differently, when there was no BB bonuses, no 50% xp pots, no first-time bonuses, no otto boxes, when you had to strategize and plan which quest you gonna do in what order to not end up farming quests at -80% xp penalty and slogging through wilderness areas. That was a huge effort for then-big rewards from PL feats. (He also hadn't run any epic quests because he was solely concentrated on TRing. He was a spectacular TR player but had no experience with epic quests.) But the same rewards you get now have a far smaller impact than they had 5 years ago due to the huge power creep. Don't tell me that 90% power of the character comes from PL feats because you'll end up as a laughingstock. It's not the number of PL feats one has that make them a better player than a newer player. It's the knowledge, skill and, previously, gear they accumulate during those past lives that puts them in a higher position than a newer player.

Now, if you put your mind to it (no otto box), you can get a PL in a few days. You can easily be on a near permanent TR timer and get your completionist in a little over a month.

Epic PL have a much bigger impact on a character's power than heroic ones but as nowadays it's a lot easier to find a group for epic quests than for heroic ones, newer players shouldn't have a problem to acquire epic PL. They won't and shouldn't be handed their epic PL feats on a silver platter just because they log in for an hour a week, they will have to make an effort to get them but at least it's similar now for vets and newer players in regards to getting epic PL as opposed to getting heroic PL now and before.



Second, player level in this game, mostly thru past lives, is so outrageously imbalanced that the Devs can no longer make challenging content. Vet players cannot take a 28pt build and crush content. This is a fallacy I have already pointed out and a straw man. It is the 50 past life min-Thors that have broken game balance. They jealously horde their past lives claiming (hard work! hard work!) they earned them (when really they just had no end game and that was the only thing they had to do) and refuse to allow equipment to evolve. As was also pointed out here, DDO is one of the few games where self entitled players seem to feel their equipment can/should never be invalidated. THAT is the end game in most MMOs! New content that provides new equipment (read better)

As for the bolded statement, it further indicates that you don't really know what you are talking about. You certainly haven't seen this thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/458984-A-10-week-competition-with-prizes). I don't think those are 28pt characters but they were first lifers and the quests were run 3-5 lvls below solo/duo/group on elite and the content was indeed crushed. So again, you don't have a clue.

About the equipment, no one says it shouldn't evolve. Everyone knows that one of the incentives for players to run the new content is loot which has to be better (in terms of power, availability or slot consolidation) than what we previously had. What people are saying, is that the old equipment is left rotting on a shelf. If there were periodic old loot revamps (like it had been done some years ago for a few packs), the replayability of the old content would rise, making gearing characters more diverse, interesting and not carbon-copies in terms of gear layout. It would be a breath of a semi-fresh air for the game imo.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The power gap is not mythical it is quite obvious. What I have been been stating is that the gap is much larger then people realize. We have people doing 400 DPS and people doing 5000 DPS running content together. And it is not really a new vs. old player gap. It is more of a build/synergy gap. The vets just have an advantage of being more likely to be able to recognize what works well or is "powered".

Others are making an argument that past lives are the cause of this gap. They are a contributor but I don't believe the entire problem.

Yes.
I agree.

My earlier post might have implied that I thought past lives were the biggest issue.... but they are not (directly).
(assuming there is even an issue...)

Time playing...and looking for ways to add various traits together is what does it.

Past lives adds power. But also adds a lot of time playing and gathering gear.
Gear is a major issue.
Then there is maxed epic destinies and twist of fate....
Completionist feat.

Ways to tweak a build to max out what is important to a player. (usually DPS)

The fact is, if you have been playing longer (or more often....)(grinding)
You are going to be more powerful.

I see nothing wrong with this.
Although I do blame Turbine for not making more effort to keep the power gap small. Instead they just keep making it bigger. (and everyone applauds)(me too...)


(Yes, my character will gain more power with the next update! Wew wooo!)
(oh...wait.... that is actually bad for the game......hmmm...)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

To be fair, "back in the day" there was also no PRR, MRR, melee power, ranged power, spell power, enhancements were much more limited, gear wasn't as prevalent, tomes weren't as prevalent and i'm sure several other things that didn't spring to mind in the 30 seconds it took to type that list.

The crusade to wipe away the earned rewards offered to players for the past several years is not going to happen, and does not have as huge an impact as this line of thinking would have everyone believe. Does it have an impact? yes, of course. But it's not the end-all be-all.

The issue for DDO is that they've changed teams so many times, added and abandoned systems, etc. and it is apparently a Herculean challenge to scale these things.

There's a wide range in playerbase because of a lot of things, like game knowledge, meta knowledge and yes, PLs that are simply a part of the system. It's an old game with an inconsistent history. that's just the way it is.


I agree.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Spot on!

The New Heroic Quests in Amrath, Meridia and around Stormreach are set up to challenge Epic Players with huge AoE damage capabilities and massive defenses.

When scaled down to Heroic the Mobs are basically unplayable for Heroic Builds that don't have those AoEs or Defenses!

How am I supposed to run Heroic Elite Demon Assault for instance on my Wis Build Melee Monk or my Arti/Rogue? The answer is neither of those characters can run that quest at or anywhere near at level unless I basically pike!

Heroic Elite Grim and Barrett? Exactly the same! The Mob Damage capabilities {aimed strictly at challenging Epic Elite capable Characters} are way too much for many Heroic Characters!


The problem is that the scaling down hasn't included reducing the number of mobs in each Spawn - yes the mob damage is much lower than in EEs but it's still more than High enough to make those quests a nightmare for many at Level Heroic Characters!

Don't tell me to run Heroic Hard or Heroic Normal:
1) Why would I run those quests TWICE? I need the Elite Favour and if necessary I'll go back and get that at Lvl 30 anyway!
2) I'm not going to pause my BB for one quest - I'll just skip that Quest till later when I can grab the Favour Solo!
3) The biggest issue with running Heroic Hard or Heroic Normal is who am I gonna run it with? I don't mind Soloing but I'd prefer to have the Choice and if I'm gonna have to solo it I'll do so over-level for the Favour!

Running one or two levels over BB = Same problem - No-one to run with! {Again I don't mind Soloing...I'd just prefer it be MY choice!



Quests scaled up to Epics suffer their own issues BUT nowhere near as bad as those that have been scaled down!



P.S. Archon's Trial trap optional - I still don't understand this optional at all!
Why wasn't that placed to bypass the insane second trial rather than the pith easy first trial? The ONLY reason to do that Trap Gauntlet right now is to get Ingenious!


I see this as a good thing. (sorta)

We have old content that remains the same difficulty. So new players can run those.
and we have new (heroic) content that provides more of a challenge to TRers.

Some people still plow through the new stuff, but there "is" a significant difference in the difficulty of new quests vs old... and I like it that way.
(as long as I have Evasion anyway....lol)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

As for the new players always running HE/EE/LE... I think some are missing obvious reasons why. When someone is new to a job, they usually train with a person that's been at the job for some time. When a person is new to karate, they train with a person who is (supposedly) a master... This is shown in several other instances too numerous to list. Does anyone really think new players come to this game thinking, 'no one is running any F2P quests on normal. I guess I should just solo it.'? No, they're new, have no idea if a quest IS solo able, or even what they're supposed to do... As time progresses, they get higher level, but that only exposes them to more NEW material... If the veteran players refuse to play anything below hard, do we really expect new players (as few as they are) to just jump in and solo the game, or do we think they might feel STRONG pulls towards tagging along with veterans, even if they actually hinder the group by being new? And, when vets DO group with them, are they being mentors, or are they frustratedly plugging along and if the newbie gets in trouble just writing them off 'their own fault!' Or something similar? And then suggesting the newb stick to normal/casual (where no one is, so basically telling the newbies to go solo, which is exactly what they won't do most times, and then the game loses another player)

Just my thoughts...


Well I personally, will join a guy (or two anyway) who wants to run normal, hard.
I wish more vets would...just out of kindness.

But I am starting to think that this doesn't help much.
Because of the power gap.

A vet would have to totally take a back seat to the new guys so they can have fun in their normal and heard quests.
( I do this, but few others do)

So.. yeah, I guess I am coming around to the idea that there really is no other difficulty than elite.... for heroics anyway.

[changelingamuck]

The fact is, if you have been playing longer (or more often....)(grinding)
You are going to be more powerful.

I see nothing wrong with this.
Although I do blame Turbine for not making more effort to keep the power gap small. Instead they just keep making it bigger. (and everyone applauds)(me too...)

(Yes, my character will gain more power with the next update! Wew wooo!)
(oh...wait.... that is actually bad for the game......hmmm...)

My jaw has officially dropped. I'm not sure that a person is allowed to display this amount of self-awareness and acknowledge a self-defeating catch-22 of game design and psychology on an internet forum. You're supposed to just notice that power boosts give you a warm, fuzzy feeling and then steadfastly deny that their could be long-term negative consequences to handing out power boosts right and left in order to justify your baser impulses...

You also described the issue of the size of the power gap as a matter of degree, instead of displaying black-and-white thinking. You're supposed to just say that we need a power gap in order to motivate people to play without recognizing the nuance that the actual size of the power gap is relative and the size of it is the important issue.

I almost feel like I should report you... to somebody... do we have a moderator in charge of inappropriately nuanced thinking??? I hope we do.

[karatemack]

+1 for a great post!

My wife and I are casual players who have managed to get our mains through heroic completionist with a few Iconic and Epic past lives. We are nowhere near the top of the power game and on your scale I would probably rate us a 4.

That said, we have joined many groups where we quickly realize we are going to lead the kill count. There are other times when we feel like we haven't contributed at all. When I think of the power gap between the players we carry and the players who carry us, I can't help but agree with your point.

Also, this post helps me have a better perspective for the new loot changes. So, thanks!

[Duetotheseverity]

Power gap because skill and/or gear is fine.

The problem are some classes and builds totally op and the end game difficult to be set around it.

[Anoregon]

I for one love the power gap! It's motivational!


It definitely can be, yeah. It's great to have cool, powerful things to aspire to. Hell, it's necessary for an MMO; there needs to always be a carrot you are chasing, otherwise what's the point? DDO definitely has that in spades, but it can be a bit too much and become overwhelming, and then ultimately demoralizing. It's totally reasonable and understandable for a person who isn't a hardcore, dozens of hours every week player to feel like they can never legitimately reach that point where they feel like a badass. The issue isn't that a gap exists, because there needs to be a gap between the hardcore dedicated players and newer/casual players to both keep the hardcore players interested and serve as a goal for the other 90%. The issue is the extent of the gap and how it only seems to be increasing.

I think another thing people might not realize that is relevant to this conversation is just how long it can take less-hardcore players to even get a character to 20, which directly relates to the length of time it takes to get through multiple TR's. Folks who already have a bunch of TR's under their belt, and all the related tomes and gear are able to blast though Heroic Elite quests solo or even carrying a group of weaker characters and get from 1-20 in no time. Many players don't even have the ability to open elite quests on solo until a 2nd life, so a lot of time is spent just trying to find a group or giving up on BB to do norm/hard first. It's important to keep in mind that being able to quickly get through a heroic life simply isn't the case for many (probably even most) players, so it makes the idea of having things like multiple completions toons seem totally out of reach.

[Warrax23]

Power gap Does need to exist to have people strive for more, there always has to be someone more powerful so that we feel the need or want to do what they are doing. I agree. However I would like to point out that the power gap in this game currently is unhealthy as the chasm can seem unbridgeable. (We we know that with time.. or a lot of time the power can shrinks) but lets face it not many people are going to walk into a game and see a 50+ lifer just walk through everything and say, I'm going to devote all of my blood sweat and tears to do that, it will take me a year but I'll do it! (Well guess what, if they actually do this, the person that they were trying to attain will still be lightyears ahead of him) because while your focusing on 1 goal, the goal line gets moved WAY beyond where it was a year ago so there is no catching up, or rather it's extremely difficult and very very grindy. I do not want nerfs, or pez dispenser power ups, I want things like Reaver. Where it took months for people how to figure out how to do it right every time. Unfortunately we live in a Copy and Paste adventure Dev time, and it's failing. (Yes Shroud sucks sorry) I did one lifetime in shroud, that's enough. I'm tired over beating on portals for an hour and having to grind all of it, for less powerful gear then we had before. Back on topic, Power gap, Perhaps we should have a first lifer/new player dedicated server where the vets who love to help the new players could live? It's a fledgling idea by no means all the way thought out. But for my my experience with new players is, they are rude, whiny, and yell when you tell them nicely where or how something works. (Not spoiling or spoilers but simple, yes pull that lever and this will happen) I didn't put 10 years into this game, to get yelled at by some child who has the attention span of a goldfish.

Wall of Text!!! :P

[SableShadow]

Power gap Does need to exist to have people strive for more, there always has to be someone more powerful so that we feel the need or want to do what they are doing. I agree.

However I would like to point out that the power gap in this game currently is unhealthy as the chasm can seem unbridgeable.

I think it's less of an issue that "people won't do it" than "the difference between worst and best spec builds + gear is too large".
YMMV



(We we know that with time.. or a lot of time the power can shrinks) but lets face it not many people are going to walk into a game and see a 50+ lifer just walk through everything and say, I'm going to devote all of my blood sweat and tears to do that, it will take me a year but I'll do it!

(Well guess what, if they actually do this, the person that they were trying to attain will still be lightyears ahead of him) because while your focusing on 1 goal, the goal line gets moved WAY beyond where it was a year ago so there is no catching up, or rather it's extremely difficult and very very grindy.

Depends on the person.
I've played a lot of games semi-casually (SW:TOR, ESO, STO, etc).



I do not want nerfs, or pez dispenser power ups, I want things like Reaver.

Where it took months for people how to figure out how to do it right every time.

Unfortunately we live in a Copy and Paste adventure Dev time, and it's failing. (Yes Shroud sucks sorry)

I did one lifetime in shroud, that's enough.

I'm tired over beating on portals for an hour and having to grind all of it, for less powerful gear then we had before.

I think u29 is underwhelming for a lot of reasons, more so than LGS.


Back on topic, Power gap, Perhaps we should have a first lifer/new player dedicated server where the vets who love to help the new players could live?

It's a fledgling idea by no means all the way thought out.

But for my my experience with new players is, they are rude, whiny, and yell when you tell them nicely where or how something works. (Not spoiling or spoilers but simple, yes pull that lever and this will happen) I didn't put 10 years into this game, to get yelled at by some child who has the attention span of a goldfish.

Too few people to make dedicated servers.



Wall of Text!!! :P

\r

[nibel]

if there is no gap (...)

Nobody is proposing to remove the gap. The gap is good. The problem is when the gap is so large that you have the extremes with differences in orders of magnitude, like people with 100 and 5k dps together.

[nokowi]

Power gap because skill and/or gear is fine.

The problem are some classes and builds totally op and the end game difficult to be set around it.

Well said.

The issue is that because of the ease of multiclass abilities and complexity of interactions, it is virtually impossible for a small team of devs to provide balanced class releases.

If the community would support both buffs and nerfs after release, without rage quitting, be could have balanced classes. As it stands, dev's do make these changes, but they must do it at such a snail-like pace (to prevent rage quits), that some classes will always be unbalanced.

We start by having a point system for
offense
defense
self healing (& heal others)
utility (ability to fill a role in a raid, buff others, remove traps, etc)

Each class gets a 1 to 10 for each of these things, and they should all have the same total.

Melee Rogue: (21)

offense: 7
defense: 3
self healing: 4
utility: 6 (this would be higher if players needed stealth and trap removal to complete more quests)

Warlock: (34)
offense: 10
defense: 10
self healing: 6
utility: 8 (being able to tank, grab aggro, etc in quest/raids)


I would guess Warlock would rank the highest of any class in a system like this.

[Warrax23]

I think it's less of an issue that "people won't do it" than "the difference between worst and best spec builds + gear is too large".
YMMV



Depends on the person.
I've played a lot of games semi-casually (SW:TOR, ESO, STO, etc).



I think u29 is underwhelming for a lot of reasons, more so than LGS.



Too few people to make dedicated servers.



\r

I agree, I think most of the updates in the last couple years have been underwhelming, I was excited when they announced Epic Shroud, I had hope. But per usual that was dashed, this game has become a massive let down time after time. And I'm kinda tired of being one of the last people in a dead/dying guild.. it's boring.

But yes, I agree we don't have the people for a dedicated server, knew there was probably a good reason lurking out there, I just wasn't seeing at the time. :)

We're becoming a Cookie Cutter game, Multi class has been more and more phased out by this current group of Dev's, I see this every day I play, we are losing out identity and our uniqueness that had made this game better than others.

I think the major player in the power gap problem is rushing out changes then back peddling, to be perfectly honest I don't care who crushes Heroic content, that isn't where I play at, and I hate heroics. Personal Opinion. However for the health of the game I have to look back to that content as well, and it's painful :P Maybe it's as simple as giving a new account X hours of buffs to help them acclimate to the game? (I'm just trying to spitball and come up with something that can help)

[Warrax23]

Well said.

The issue is that because of the ease of multiclass abilities and complexity of interactions, it is virtually impossible for a small team of devs to provide balanced class releases.

If the community would support both buffs and nerfs after release, without rage quitting, be could have balanced classes. As it stands, dev's do make these changes, but they must do it at such a snail-like pace (to prevent rage quits), that some classes will always be unbalanced.

We start by having a point system for
offense
defense
self healing (& heal others)
utility (ability to fill a role in a raid, buff others, remove traps, etc)

Each class gets a 1 to 10 for each of these things, and they should all have the same total.

Melee Rogue: (21)

offense: 7
defense: 3
self healing: 4
utility: 6 (this would be higher if players needed stealth and trap removal to complete more quests)

Warlock: (34)
offense: 10
defense: 10
self healing: 6
utility: 8 (being able to tank, grab aggro, etc in quest/raids)


I would guess Warlock would rank the highest of any class in a system like this.

I think a point system would be amazing, if we could all be honest about it, and not put our personal biased towards them. I would also love to have a DPS meter (Even the kobold from Lama) added do that people would actually see what damage they are doing. It might shock people to know how much or little they are doing in reality.

[redoubt]

How am I supposed to run Heroic Elite Demon Assault for instance on my Wis Build Melee Monk or my Arti/Rogue? The answer is neither of those characters can run that quest at or anywhere near at level unless I basically pike!

Heroic Elite Grim and Barrett? Exactly the same! The Mob Damage capabilities {aimed strictly at challenging Epic Elite capable Characters} are way too much for many Heroic Characters!



On my previous life I was a 12 rogue/4 arti /4 fvs. At the time I hit the quest you mention I was 9 rogue/4 arti/2 fvs. I was running with a guildmate who was a 13 rogue/2 arti at the time. We ran both of those chains on heroic elite with bravery bonus. They do have higher spawns and are more challenging than other quests of similar level, but they were far from impossible and neither of those builds was required to pike. Quite the contrary, the rogue/artie thing makes it easier to deal with the Mob Damage capabilities you mention.

I have no idea about your other build, sorry.

[Anoregon]

I think it's less of an issue that "people won't do it" than "the difference between worst and best spec builds + gear is too large".
YMMV


Actually I wouldn't even say it's the "best vs worst" gap that's too large, because there's always going to be a significant difference there and that is fine. The issue is more of best specs (with all the TR's and tomes) vs everything else. It's a problem when a significant degree of character power comes from areas other than just playing and gearing your character well. A well-geared and played 32pt build with, say, +2-3 tomes across the board is still going to have nowhere near the potential of a similarly geared heroic plus epic completionist toon with +5-7 tomes, and that has nothing to do with how "good" at the game either player is. Someone can see a really cool build idea they want to try, then check out the build write-up and see it needs a +7 tome and a bunch of past lives and immediately go "oh well, I guess I'll never be able to play that." I'm not sure there's a similar phenomenon in any other MMO.

[Duetotheseverity]

We're becoming a Cookie Cutter game, Multi class has been more and more phased out by this current group of Dev's, I see this every day I play, we are losing out identity and our uniqueness that had made this game better than others.


This, customization was one of the best things about this game.

But in every nerf they kill it a bit more.

[FranOhmsford]

On my previous life I was a 12 rogue/4 arti /4 fvs. At the time I hit the quest you mention I was 9 rogue/4 arti/2 fvs. I was running with a guildmate who was a 13 rogue/2 arti at the time. We ran both of those chains on heroic elite with bravery bonus. They do have higher spawns and are more challenging than other quests of similar level, but they were far from impossible and neither of those builds was required to pike. Quite the contrary, the rogue/artie thing makes it easier to deal with the Mob Damage capabilities you mention.

I have no idea about your other build, sorry.

1) You were running as a Duo with a Guildmate who I assume you've run with many times before.

2) I'm guessing here that not only you but he as well are multiple TRs.

3) He had Improved Evasion, You had 9 Rogue Levels and were both Rogue Builds - My Character was at that time 9 Arti/7 Rogue - Bad build I know but perfectly fine in E-BB Gianthold, Orchard etc..

4) I don't have a regular buddy to run with and have to rely on either Solo or Pugs - What I meant when I said reduced to piking was that that character joins a Group for that quest and I can tell you now it will be relying on the Group rather than making a major contribution!
No I'm not talking about standing at the entrance while everyone else completes the quest - I'm talking about the feeling that one is just not needed!

[Brac]

How would people feel if changes were made that addressed the power gap but we're not creative?

An example would be to give Artificers the Mechanic tree. Right now Rogue Mechanics are in the high DPS category. Yet Artificers, pretty much all that don't splash 5 Rogue, are pretty far behind. There is no originality to giving them the Mechanic tree and makes the classes very similar, but does close the gap a great deal to bring Artificers in line.

In a perfect world all classes are unique and balanced in a way. But if that is not possible is it better to wait for then to do it right, or just do something to help the class?

No right or wrong answer I am just curious to how the player base would feel if they did something like this.

[Warrax23]

This, customization was one of the best things about this game.

But in every nerf they kill it a bit more.

I know, I'm a tinkerer for builds, and personally I'm shocked there isn't more of an uproar about it. This has always been a game where customization was king, I don't think everyone needs to multi-class, but I also don't want to ONLY play pure classes. Most games out there are, I'm gonna play a warrior, well here if your class and you never get to do anything else. By pushing all a lot of the power to pure classes they are making this every other MMO, and well that will be a death stroke to the game, imo.

[FranOhmsford]

Actually I wouldn't even say it's the "best vs worst" gap that's too large, because there's always going to be a significant difference there and that is fine. The issue is more of best specs (with all the TR's and tomes) vs everything else. It's a problem when a significant degree of character power comes from areas other than just playing and gearing your character well. A well-geared and played 32pt build with, say, +2-3 tomes across the board is still going to have nowhere near the potential of a similarly geared heroic plus epic completionist toon with +5-7 tomes, and that has nothing to do with how "good" at the game either player is. Someone can see a really cool build idea they want to try, then check out the build write-up and see it needs a +7 tome and a bunch of past lives and immediately go "oh well, I guess I'll never be able to play that." I'm not sure there's a similar phenomenon in any other MMO.

The Devs really need to make Tomes much more available in-game as opposed to on the DDOStore!

Yes it will hurt their takings short term but I feel pretty certain it would be a boon long term as more players stick around and older players come back knowing that the P2W requirement has been lessened!

The Devs also need to state outright that Tomes will NEVER go higher than +7!
They need to reduce the 5k Tome Favour requirement to 4k {they can up it back to 5k once they reach 5,500 Favour available in game.} and add a 50 AS choice for those who already have +5 or above Tomes on Everything.
They need to change the 1750 Favour Reward to give:
+3 Stat Tome of your Choice
+3-4 Upgrade Stat Tome of your Choice
and
20 Astral Shards. {for those who don't want any of the stat tomes.}.

[Warrax23]

How would people feel if changes were made that addressed the power gap but we're not creative?

An example would be to give Artificers the Mechanic tree. Right now Rogue Mechanics are in the high DPS category. Yet Artificers, pretty much all that don't splash 5 Rogue, are pretty far behind. There is no originality to giving them the Mechanic tree and makes the classes very similar, but does close the gap a great deal to bring Artificers in line.

In a perfect world all classes are unique and balanced in a way. But if that is not possible is it better to wait for then to do it right, or just do something to help the class?

No right or wrong answer I am just curious to how the player base would feel if they did something like this.

I don't see why they couldn't have the mechanic tree, as far as story line it would add up. Power level might need a little adjustment just so they aren't more powerful than the split class. And a class that's basically BUILT for xbows really should be the best at them.

My 2 cents.

[Brac]

1) You were running as a Duo with a Guildmate who I assume you've run with many times before.

2) I'm guessing here that not only you but he as well are multiple TRs.

3) He had Improved Evasion, You had 9 Rogue Levels and were both Rogue Builds - My Character was at that time 9 Arti/7 Rogue - Bad build I know but perfectly fine in E-BB Gianthold, Orchard etc..

4) I don't have a regular buddy to run with and have to rely on either Solo or Pugs - What I meant when I said reduced to piking was that that character joins a Group for that quest and I can tell you now it will be relying on the Group rather than making a major contribution!
No I'm not talking about standing at the entrance while everyone else completes the quest - I'm talking about the feeling that one is just not needed!

When you create these characters do you know ahead of time that they will be underpowered or do you not find out until you reach the higher levels?

I know you feel that you are entitled to run everything at elite due to the rewards but as I previously stated I disagree with you. If your character is underpowered he does not belong in elite quests.

[Slymenstraa]

One reason for those times when new players are left watching vets steamroll heroic content, is the lack of new players. New players really only have vets to group with. Maybe Turbine should try to find ways to get new players in. Advertising is the most obvious, but there is the option to turn most if not all lower level content free to play. It worked in 09, so why not turn catacombs, sharn, tangleroot, etc free to play. Those are good packs that really have a diversity of quest design and it can also give new players more chances to hone their skills and tactics. The 10 year old game argument is ****, this game has the potential to last another 10 or 20 years, but a real effort on behalf of turbine will be needed to promote the game and keep new players coming.

[FranOhmsford]

How would people feel if changes were made that addressed the power gap but we're not creative?

An example would be to give Artificers the Mechanic tree. Right now Rogue Mechanics are in the high DPS category. Yet Artificers, pretty much all that don't splash 5 Rogue, are pretty far behind. There is no originality to giving them the Mechanic tree and makes the classes very similar, but does close the gap a great deal to bring Artificers in line.

In a perfect world all classes are unique and balanced in a way. But if that is not possible is it better to wait for then to do it right, or just do something to help the class?

No right or wrong answer I am just curious to how the player base would feel if they did something like this.

Giving Artificers the Mechanic Tree would be a good thing in my View - The Devs could then go over Battle Engineer and make it all about the Rune-Arm & Dog while Arcanotech could be a more Caster Specced Tree.

I'd also like to see:
Clerics and Barbarians get access to Sacred and Stalwart Defender respectively.
Rogues get access to Swashbucker.
Monks get access to Assassin {and Acrobat but fixing Henshin may be a better option}.
Fighters get access to Tempest. {some slight changes may be required}

[nokowi]

One reason for those times when new players are left watching vets steamroll heroic content, is the lack of new players. New players really only have vets to group with. Maybe Turbine should try to find ways to get new players in. Advertising is the most obvious, but there is the option to turn most if not all lower level content free to play. It worked in 09, so why not turn catacombs, sharn, tangleroot, etc free to play. Those are good packs that really have a diversity of quest design and it can also give new players more chances to hone their skills and tactics. The 10 year old game argument is ****, this game has the potential to last another 10 or 20 years, but a real effort on behalf of turbine will be needed to promote the game and keep new players coming.

This!

FTP can get stuck around level 5-6. This is not enough time to retain new players.

They should be getting stuck around level 10-11 before they need to buy packs.

[redoubt]

As for the new players always running HE/EE/LE... I think some are missing obvious reasons why. When someone is new to a job, they usually train with a person that's been at the job for some time. When a person is new to karate, they train with a person who is (supposedly) a master... This is shown in several other instances too numerous to list. Does anyone really think new players come to this game thinking, 'no one is running any F2P quests on normal. I guess I should just solo it.'? No, they're new, have no idea if a quest IS solo able, or even what they're supposed to do... As time progresses, they get higher level, but that only exposes them to more NEW material... If the veteran players refuse to play anything below hard, do we really expect new players (as few as they are) to just jump in and solo the game, or do we think they might feel STRONG pulls towards tagging along with veterans, even if they actually hinder the group by being new? And, when vets DO group with them, are they being mentors, or are they frustratedly plugging along and if the newbie gets in trouble just writing them off 'their own fault!' Or something similar? And then suggesting the newb stick to normal/casual (where no one is, so basically telling the newbies to go solo, which is exactly what they won't do most times, and then the game loses another player)

Just my thoughts...

Two thoughts come to mind about this:

1. In your example, the karate student might train under the guidance of a master, but they spar and compete against those of the same rank. They are actually training with people of the same rank.

2. When I started we all ran together and we ran normal. Why do new players not do this? I'll admit I was confused by stuff at first, but I learned. We all did. There were no vets to lead us around. We struggled, we died, we had permanent curses and we talked to each other and figured it out.

I also find this response interesting:


Well I personally, will join a guy (or two anyway) who wants to run normal, hard.
I wish more vets would...just out of kindness.

But I am starting to think that this doesn't help much.
Because of the power gap.

A vet would have to totally take a back seat to the new guys so they can have fun in their normal and heard quests.
( I do this, but few others do)

So.. yeah, I guess I am coming around to the idea that there really is no other difficulty than elite.... for heroics anyway.

With so much repetition, most heroic quests are easy for me at this point, so I rarely drop to anything lower than elite, but I will join other peoples groups and follow their lead. Now, when I see that I've joined a group that is struggling and doesn't know what to do, I'll slowly pick up the slack and see how the group responds. Often this ultimately ends with me leading even though I would prefer that the person with the star do so. The issue I see is that even when I tell people "try the door on the right first" type stuff, they don't want to actually do it and want someone else to be the point.

Lastly, communication is, imo, the single biggest issue. So few people these days will talk on chat. Many will not even type. I lead 90% of the groups I'm in and I pug them all. I take anyone who wants to come and I lead over voice chat. When people talk or type I give more info and I keep them close if needed because I know better how they are doing because they are communicating with me. If they don't communicate with me, it is very difficult to help them.

[FranOhmsford]

One reason for those times when new players are left watching vets steamroll heroic content, is the lack of new players. New players really only have vets to group with. Maybe Turbine should try to find ways to get new players in. Advertising is the most obvious, but there is the option to turn most if not all lower level content free to play. It worked in 09, so why not turn catacombs, sharn, tangleroot, etc free to play. Those are good packs that really have a diversity of quest design and it can also give new players more chances to hone their skills and tactics. The 10 year old game argument is ****, this game has the potential to last another 10 or 20 years, but a real effort on behalf of turbine will be needed to promote the game and keep new players coming.

Catacombs would be a perfect pact to make F2P - Pretty much everyone already playing has already bought it, it's cheap anyway so the Devs won't lose much by making it F2P and in my view can only gain!

Sharn Syndicate would be another good choice to make F2P as there's very little reason right now for people to buy this pack and really it's nothing more than a newbie trap to get them to waste their TP.

STK could stay as a P2P pack.

I'd make Lordsmarch II F2P personally - It still gets difficult for newbies around that level and that would be a good pack to make F2P.

[LongshotBro]

I know, I'm a tinkerer for builds, and personally I'm shocked there isn't more of an uproar about it. This has always been a game where customization was king, I don't think everyone needs to multi-class, but I also don't want to ONLY play pure classes. Most games out there are, I'm gonna play a warrior, well here if your class and you never get to do anything else. By pushing all a lot of the power to pure classes they are making this every other MMO, and well that will be a death stroke to the game, imo.

imo this has always been the double-edged sword of DDO. it is unique and wonderful that players can mix and match classes, while that very aspect makes balance a complicated road to tread. in most other games class abilities are balanced against each other because they are granted at specific level breaks across the board. then you've got games like Secret World where you can mix and match things but you are clearly giving up other things and making sacrifices. in DDO you can shore up any weaknesses by carefully dipping into other classes at for specific abilities at any time.

this is not to say that balance is impossible. i like to use Magic: The Gathering as an example of good game balance as a comparison for all sorts of games. You can run a mono-colored deck and build an effective one, or combine some or all colors and still be effective.

DDO's problem, as I stated before, is starting and abandoning systems multiple times over the years, poor planning/implementation for scaling and generally just creating a convoluted mess at this point. Inconsistency is the largest threat to this game.