First fighter since 2009, pls critique!

[undercover69]

Wanting to TR my barbarian, which was a blast to play with, and have fun with tactics.
What do you guys think, anything that can be improved?



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.28.102
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Dworf Tactic
Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(20 Fighter)
Hit Points: 392
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 21
Reflex: 5
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 28
Dexterity 9 9
Constitution 18 24
Intelligence 13 13
Wisdom 10 10
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 17.5
Bluff 0 -2
Concentration 0 10
Diplomacy 0 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 0 -2
Heal 0 0
Hide 0 -1
Intimidate 0 1
Jump 4 35
Listen 0 0
Move Silently 0 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 2 3
Spellcraft 0 1
Spot 0 0
Swim 4 32
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Single Weapon Fighting


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Heavy Armor Training


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Improved Single Weapon Fighting


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Trip


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Heavy Armor Combatant


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Tacticle Master


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Tacticle Supremacy


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Heavy Armor Champion
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Heavy Armor Master


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Iron Stomach (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Iron Stomach (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Tactics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Tactics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Tactics (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Spiritual Bond (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strike With No Thought (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Power Surge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - One Cut (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Alacrity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Contemplation (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Contemplation (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Contemplation (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Damage (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Damage (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Keen Edge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - To the Fore! (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Specialization I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - No Weakness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Armor Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Armor Training (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Armor Training (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Brutality (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Brutality (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Brutality (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 3)




P.S.: Any gear I should farm before TRing?

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Wanting to TR my barbarian, which was a blast to play with, and have fun with tactics.
What do you guys think, anything that can be improved?



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.28.102
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Dworf Tactic
Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(20 Fighter)
Hit Points: 392
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 21
Reflex: 5
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 28
Dexterity 9 9
Constitution 18 24
Intelligence 13 13
Wisdom 10 10
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 17.5
Bluff 0 -2
Concentration 0 10
Diplomacy 0 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 0 -2
Heal 0 0
Hide 0 -1
Intimidate 0 1
Jump 4 35
Listen 0 0
Move Silently 0 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 2 3
Spellcraft 0 1
Spot 0 0
Swim 4 32
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Single Weapon Fighting


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Heavy Armor Training


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Improved Single Weapon Fighting


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Trip


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Heavy Armor Combatant


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Tacticle Master


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Tacticle Supremacy


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Heavy Armor Champion
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Heavy Armor Master


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Iron Stomach (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Iron Stomach (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Tactics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Tactics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Tactics (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Spiritual Bond (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strike With No Thought (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Power Surge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - One Cut (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Alacrity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Contemplation (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Contemplation (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Contemplation (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Damage (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Damage (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Keen Edge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - To the Fore! (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Specialization I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - No Weakness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Armor Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Armor Training (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Armor Training (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Brutality (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Brutality (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Brutality (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 3)




P.S.: Any gear I should farm before TRing?

kensei really sucks right now, id wait til the fighter pass before trying out fighter.

some ideal str melee tr gear id recommend, without giving any consideration to how easy or not it is to acquire:

sos
belt of brute strength or belt of the mroranon
gloves/bracers of the claw
pale blue ioun stone
abishai set
bloodstone
black dragonscale armor
kundarak delving boots
skirmishers gloves
leviks bracers
chaosgarde
greater bold trinket
fabricators gloves/bracers
ml 15 spare hand
electric haze
knosts ring/belt
colethenis belt, ring of the ravager
tharnes goggles
quiver of alacrity
con opp hp cloak

[undercover69]

kensei really sucks right now, id wait til the fighter pass before trying out fighter.

some ideal str melee tr gear id recommend, without giving any consideration to how easy or not it is to acquire:

sos
belt of brute strength or belt of the mroranon
gloves/bracers of the claw
pale blue ioun stone
abishai set
bloodstone
black dragonscale armor
kundarak delving boots
skirmishers gloves
leviks bracers
chaosgarde
greater bold trinket
fabricators gloves/bracers
ml 15 spare hand
electric haze
knosts ring/belt
colethenis belt, ring of the ravager
tharnes goggles
quiver of alacrity
con opp hp cloak

Thanks for the info, didn't know there will be a kensei overhaul. Let's see if I can wait :P

[Enderoc]

A dragonmarked TWF elven arcane archer, focusing almost entirely on the elf racial and elf arcane archer trees is a good choice.

[unbongwah]

Well, the good news is: a tactics-oriented build is probably the best use of pure fighter these days.

The bad news is: that's because Kensei DPS is pretty bad compared to barb, pally, etc. :( There should be a ftr pass next year (knock on wood), but if you're just trying to work out a few HTRs, I would suggest doing one of the other buffed classes next - pally, rgr, etc. - rather than ftr.

[undercover69]

Well, the good news is: a tactics-oriented build is probably the best use of pure fighter these days.

The bad news is: that's because Kensei DPS is pretty bad compared to barb, pally, etc. :( There should be a ftr pass next year (knock on wood), but if you're just trying to work out a few HTRs, I would suggest doing one of the other buffed classes next - pally, rgr, etc. - rather than ftr.

I'm knocking on wood! Though I don't think that I can wait until the overhaul (and I'm finding pretty funny the word "pass" is the fad now).
That said, maybe I should go with THF instead of SWF. It's just that I swung as much a greataxe as I care for now, but the DPS aspect is important.
Anyways, thanks for the heads up.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I'm knocking on wood! Though I don't think that I can wait until the overhaul (and I'm finding pretty funny the word "pass" is the fad now).
That said, maybe I should go with THF instead of SWF. It's just that I swung as much a greataxe as I care for now, but the DPS aspect is important.
Anyways, thanks for the heads up.

tbh, unless the way kensei deals dmg changes significantly, i think swf is better for fighter.

regardless, theres no reason you cant do a swf or twf barb, or play a ranger, or do a swf or twf pally. all of those options are a lot stronger than fighter right now.

fighter has been getting weaker and weaker both by proxy and direct nerf for a while now.

[JOTMON]

Well, the good news is: a tactics-oriented build is probably the best use of pure fighter these days.

The bad news is: that's because Kensei DPS is pretty bad compared to barb, pally, etc. :( There should be a ftr pass next year (knock on wood), but if you're just trying to work out a few HTRs, I would suggest doing one of the other buffed classes next - pally, rgr, etc. - rather than ftr.

Issue with Tactics..
1. Single target.
2. Worthless on Bosses
3. Slow cooldowns
4. heavy investment for poor return.


A tactics build is lacking in all the area's I would expect a tactics build to be useful..

1. group cc
2. Boss CC/damage mitigation
3. seamless CC to mitigate/avoid getting killed by mobs.
4. being able to take aggro and cc mobs without getting splatted.

Its kind of pointless being a tactics build if you spend 1/2 of your time running away from one shot mobs trying to heal/get healed waiting for your cooldown timers to reset to re trip/stun/sunder trash mobs.
Then all your investment into tactics goes out the window when you go toe-to-toe with the red-names since none of the tactics have any impact on bosses whatsoever.

Meanwhile the assassinating, blinding, deception build rogue is spinning and insta-killing trash and still able to contribute to Boss CC with hamstring while using deception to avoid aggro.
I guess you could intimidate.. so the mobs can hit you for 1k+ damage a swing after all your PRR.. but that's not really a tactic.. more of a deathwish...

Hopefully the figther pass will address many of the issues plaguing this lacking melee class..

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Issue with Tactics..
1. Single target.
2. Worthless on Bosses
3. Slow cooldowns
4. heavy investment for poor return.


A tactics build is lacking in all the area's I would expect a tactics build to be useful..

1. group cc
2. Boss CC/damage mitigation
3. seamless CC to mitigate/avoid getting killed by mobs.
4. being able to take aggro and cc mobs without getting splatted.

Its kind of pointless being a tactics build if you spend 1/2 of your time running away from one shot mobs trying to heal/get healed waiting for your cooldown timers to reset to re trip/stun/sunder trash mobs.
Then all your investment into tactics goes out the window when you go toe-to-toe with the red-names since none of the tactics have any impact on bosses whatsoever.

Meanwhile the assassinating, blinding, deception build rogue is spinning and insta-killing trash and still able to contribute to Boss CC with hamstring while using deception to avoid aggro.
I guess you could intimidate.. so the mobs can hit you for 1k+ damage a swing after all your PRR.. but that's not really a tactic.. more of a deathwish...

Hopefully the figther pass will address many of the issues plaguing this lacking melee class..

not that i think fighter is really a distinct "tactics" build, but your comments clearly imply you have not played one.

single target cc is very good in older content where mob sizes are a lot smaller, always good for when theres casters around, and still not bad even in quests like the storm horns where you fight absolute hordes, but the stuff is at least stunnable.

while i dont understand the reasoning (or lack thereof) behind stun/trip having 15 sec cds and imp/sunder having a 10 sec cd, its actually not so terrible in epics when you are spending most of your time spamming cleaves, maintaining buffs, and healing. if you are standing around waiting for a cd, youre doing it wrong, there is always something you can and should be doing to be more effective than a training dummy.

when i was playing a pure kensei most recently (pre kensei deathblow of u28.1), which again i dont really feel qualifies as a "tactics" build due to all of the options being generic and the dc being high but not necessarily better, i was able to complete all kinds of ee content, solo, and i didnt spend half of my time healing. in fact, it was really quite punishing for me to over heal, because my heal cds were long, and i wasnt boasting 250% damage like in the glory days of blitz.

theres no reason a fighter cant have deception, and personally id say they most certainly should, just like any other melee. its both a defensive and offensive effect, and one of my higher priorities when slotting gear. you can spin enemies quite well even with thf, and especially if twitching and/or haste boosting. i seriously doubt any rogue is taking hamstring these days, and afaik it only applies the attack speed slow to pit fiends due to a bug, which may or may not have been fixed. in any case, hamstring is like deception, it can be slotted as a % proc, which as ive already pointed out means it can be maintained easily because of the sheer amount of attacks we put out with even the slowest attack rate fighting style.

the only thing hitting for 1k+ after prr is new le stuff, and through use of actual gameplay tactics, as well as tactical abilities, this damage is quite easily avoided. some tips: just because youre a melee doesnt mean youre a meat shield. let tanks tank, let ccers cc. let noobs zerg and pull aggro and die in this content, while you attack mobs from a position where their attacks wont hit you. dont pull more than you can fight effectively. when facing this kind of incoming damage, kiters can be your friend. circle strafe, trust me its worth it. also, this kind of content is a great time for even single target cc, because it cant hit you for 1k+ per swing if its stunned or tripped. also, ive watched a number of videos of people showing off their characters, and i watch other melees in game, and i almost never see any use trip. its actually a really good skill, use it, it helps.



lately ive started to think that an aoe stun would be op on fighters. ignore dire charge for a minute, as i havent used it yet so i cant make direct comments about it, and i think deific warding is better anyway. casters have aoe helpless, but it costs mana, so its not free, and the follow up also costs mana. warchanters have an aoe helpless, but its god a long cd, semi difficult dc to raise, and warchanter dps is sort of lack luster. if fighters were to get an aoe helpless, id think it should have a fairly long cd.


the one thing i think is absolutely necessary for fighters in particular, is the ability to cc red names, at least with partial effectiveness. or they could just remove red names entirely, or remove their cc immunity completely. im fine with any of that, red names really kill the game for me.

[JOTMON]

not that i think fighter is really a distinct "tactics" build, but your comments clearly imply you have not played one.

Cute, but I am not here to cast or trade personal insults..




single target cc is very good in older content where mob sizes are a lot smaller, always good for when theres casters around, and still not bad even in quests like the storm horns where you fight absolute hordes, but the stuff is at least stunnable.


Old content isn't relevant. almost every tactic works in old content with minimal investment.
The whole point of building and developing a toon is to build it into relevant content to achieve the higher benchmarks. which is the new Legendary content..
Nobody cares if your level 30 toon is using tactics in Stormhorms.. only being careless or ill prepared will get you killed there.

What does Mob size have to do with anything, Trip/Stun/Sap/Sunder are not impacted by mob size..
Mob size is only relevant for intimidate which is only needed for tanking.




the only thing hitting for 1k+ after prr is new le stuff, and through use of actual gameplay tactics, as well as tactical abilities, this damage is quite easily avoided. some tips: just because youre a melee doesnt mean youre a meat shield. let tanks tank, let ccers cc. let noobs zerg and pull aggro and die in this content, while you attack mobs from a position where their attacks wont hit you. dont pull more than you can fight effectively. when facing this kind of incoming damage, kiters can be your friend. circle strafe, trust me its worth it. also, this kind of content is a great time for even single target cc, because it cant hit you for 1k+ per swing if its stunned or tripped. also, ive watched a number of videos of people showing off their characters, and i watch other melees in game, and i almost never see any use trip. its actually a really good skill, use it, it helps.

Again.. Legendary is where tactics matter.. you want to land your tactics so you can melee mobs without risk of being one-shotted.
Heroics/Epics are less important, you can take a few hits while landing your tactics in between trading punches.

Kiting, Strafing, Pulling manageable aggro.. these may be 'playe'r tactics.. but have nothing to do with the topic of 'fighter' tactics

Generally Trip is inferior to stun since stun provides helpless damage bonus. and to develop Trip into improved Trip is 2 feats vs Stun's 1 feat.
Mobs generally have better saves vs trip (best of Str/Dex)and save attempt every 2 seconds on trip duration.
Trip/Stun use some different DC modifiers, making it more difficult to equip boost gear for both until you can equip level 27 boots of the innocent. and by LE the + bonuses are inferior as +15 becomes available.

Fighters are still lacking overall pooling of tactics to be endgame useful, Investing in more than 1 tactic would spread yourself too thin.




lately ive started to think that an aoe stun would be op on fighters. ignore dire charge for a minute, as i havent used it yet so i cant make direct comments about it, and i think deific warding is better anyway. casters have aoe helpless, but it costs mana, so its not free, and the follow up also costs mana. warchanters have an aoe helpless, but its god a long cd, semi difficult dc to raise, and warchanter dps is sort of lack luster. if fighters were to get an aoe helpless, id think it should have a fairly long cd.


Compared to..
Mass hold, earthquake, Lay Waste, shield charge....
as long as the DC's remain challenging to attain, it should be something that is viable...



the one thing i think is absolutely necessary for fighters in particular, is the ability to cc red names, at least with partial effectiveness. or they could just remove red names entirely, or remove their cc immunity completely. im fine with any of that, red names really kill the game for me.

Which was one of my points.. Fighters have no tactics available to them that are useful for Bosses.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Old content isn't relevant. almost every tactic works in old content with minimal investment.
The whole point of building and developing a toon is to build it into relevant content to achieve the higher benchmarks. which is the new Legendary content..
Nobody cares if your level 30 toon is using tactics in Stormhorms.. only being careless or ill prepared will get you killed there.

What does Mob size have to do with anything, Trip/Stun/Sap/Sunder are not impacted by mob size..


Again.. Legendary is where tactics matter.. you want to land your tactics so you can melee mobs without risk of being one-shotted.
Heroics/Epics are less important, you can take a few hits while landing your tactics in between trading punches.

Kiting, Strafing, Pulling manageable aggro.. these may be 'playe'r tactics.. but have nothing to do with the topic of 'fighter' tactics

Generally Trip is inferior to stun since stun provides helpless damage bonus. and to develop Trip into improved Trip is 2 feats vs Stun's 1 feat.
Mobs generally have better saves vs trip (best of Str/Dex)and save attempt every 2 seconds on trip duration.
Trip/Stun use some different DC modifiers, making it more difficult to equip boost gear for both until you can equip level 27 boots of the innocent. and by LE the + bonuses are inferior as +15 becomes available.

Fighters are still lacking overall pooling of tactics to be endgame useful, Investing in more than 1 tactic would spread yourself too thin.




Compared to..
Mass hold, earthquake, Lay Waste, shield charge....
as long as the DC's remain challenging to attain, it should be something that is viable...

its not an insult, its a statement of my perception that you probably should refrain from making heavy handed comments about things you are not qualified to make such comments about. but whatever, i could be wrong and you have/do play a melee build which uses tactics. based on your apparent perceptions of the topic of melees and cc, i wont believe it til i see it though. feel free to prove me wrong.


old content is sort of relevant to tactics dcs if you compare achievable tactics at level for the old content.
melee cc dcs are landable in le. my current character is only low 80s str (without going full ******) barb (so, lacking the +5 dc bonus a pure fighter would get, and also not packing improved sunder for the spammable fort debuff), and only equips a stun item sparingly as a swap in, but is wearing hook boots which grant +trip and +all tac dcs. in le, trip is very easy to land. in le, stun occasionally lands even without equipping an item for it. in lh, trip is a given, and stun is surprisingly reliable even on a low str, low dc build with no item equipped. so basically, minimal investment = success. tbh, dc were hardest to land in new amrath, but i think the devs realized they went too ham on those mobs saves and have since eased up in more recent content. in any case, u27 is old and apparently totally irrelevant.
i wasnt referencing storm horns with respect to my dcs on any given build at any given level, but the mob size.

mob size has a lot to do with the effectiveness of trip/stun. if youre fighting a "mob" of two enemies, stun + trip will take care of business really well. the more actual enemies in a mob, the less total cc you are able to apply with only 2 cc abilities. this is the reason you were advocating for an aoe helpless no? also something i shouldve mentioned in my previous post, lay waste. learn it, love it, use it.


as mentioned, i am landing cc in legendary, elite.
sure heroics and epics are less significant to all aspects of the game now, but i dont see why that matters to this subject. as difficulty increases, your strategy adapts. if a characters survival is solely dependent on successfully landing cc before taking any dmg, because any dmg is always a one shot, then clearly a player wont aggro more than 1-2 things at a time unless they have lay waste ready.


if including a lack of "player tactics" ("spending half your time running away waiting for cool downs," "toe to toe") in the discussion, i think including the opposite is warranted.


whether trip is strictly inferior or not compared to stun is debatable imo. the two maneuvers attack different saves on the enemy. some things are immune to one and not the other. personally i find that outside of the extreme cases (spiders, etc) trip is usually easier to land. typically though an enemy that is strong vs trip is weak vs stun, and vice versa. they compliment each other. yes stunning blow causes helplessness, but is it really needed? im able to mow through mobs pretty nicely without making them all helpless, and i dont usually bother much with sense weakness either. lately im finding the helpless to be very valuable in higher levels hox, where you have high priority target you need to kill asap and there is no such thing as overkill. the rest though? nah.

i think its incredibly irritating, beyond all mother****ing belief, that tactics bonuses are separated. and then turbine does something wondrous and magical by giving melees an item like innocents, and then proves that it was just a fluke by pushing str item onto boots, and not giving us a new +all tactics item. they should just consolidate the +stun/trip/sunder into +enhancement (or whatever the **** type it is) combat mastery, and keep insightful combat mastery. and possibly add quality, profane, exceptional, psionic, rage, special combat mastery... however, when i was playing pure kensei and doj came out, i was using hook boots because i had to, which takes care of +trip and +combat mastery, and wearing visions of precision for +stun. i did not feel like i was stretching myself too thin. if i had tried to fit in a +sunder item, then i would.


lay waste is available to fighters. so is shield charge, which honestly, vanguard is more of a tactics build than kensei. dc are not challenging to attain for a pure kensei currently, at all (except for u27 content), the issue with the class/spec is immense lack of dps to be competitive. mass hold and earth quake cost spell points, if spell points were infinite then itd be different, but as it is i think that if kensei gains a sufficient amount of dps, an aoe helpless on a free sustained dmg class will be op. i think it would be better to add 1-2 single target cc to fighter/kensei and give kensei a reset mechanic, so that mass cc is possible but you have to work at it to keep it up. also, lay waste, earthquake, shield charge do not cause helplessness. and again concerning dire charge, i have a hard time seeing it being better than deific warding unless content becomes too easy again.

[JOTMON]

its not an insult, its a statement of my perception that you probably should refrain from making heavy handed comments about things you are not qualified to make such comments about. but whatever, i could be wrong and you have/do play a melee build which uses tactics. based on your apparent perceptions of the topic of melees and cc, i wont believe it til i see it though. feel free to prove me wrong.


Its was my perception that you were insulting
I have played every class many times and easily 5x as many eye brow raising multi-class variants over the years including many lives and variants of fighters
I am playing the game for my entertainment, I have no need to prove anything.
I am just pointing out things that I believe would improve the overall game.




i wasnt referencing storm horns with respect to my dcs on any given build at any given level, but the mob size.

mob size has a lot to do with the effectiveness of trip/stun. if youre fighting a "mob" of two enemies, stun + trip will take care of business really well. the more actual enemies in a mob, the less total cc you are able to apply with only 2 cc abilities. this is the reason you were advocating for an aoe helpless no? also something i shouldve mentioned in my previous post, lay waste. learn it, love it, use it.


ok, so its not 'mob size' but number of mobs faced in an encounter.. ~not how I read your statement.~

Yes, this was why i wanted to see AOE tactic development for fighters, things that can be improved with levelling, enhancements feats to enhance AOE CC.
but what is really lacking is Boss/Red Named tactics..




as mentioned, i am landing cc in legendary, elite.
sure heroics and epics are less significant to all aspects of the game now, but i dont see why that matters to this subject. as difficulty increases, your strategy adapts. if a characters survival is solely dependent on successfully landing cc before taking any dmg, because any dmg is always a one shot, then clearly a player wont aggro more than 1-2 things at a time unless they have lay waste ready.

if including a lack of "player tactics" ("spending half your time running away waiting for cool downs," "toe to toe") in the discussion, i think including the opposite is warranted.


Lay waste is a great aoe tactic, even with the 1 minute cooldown.
There should be more things like this within the fighter Enhancement trees.

My issue with fighter tactics is for the most part.. Boss fights... where you want tactics to be effective, but they are not, they become useless..
There are lots of classes and other ways to pick off one trash mob at a time from another room and bring them back in manageable numbers.. anybody can do this.. that's not a 'fighter tactic', that is gaming strategy.

Primarially where I would expect and want the fighter tactics to come into play is when you don't have the option to pick 1 mob at a time or are facing the endfight boss or waves of trash mobs.




whether trip is strictly inferior or not compared to stun is debatable imo. the two maneuvers attack different saves on the enemy. some things are immune to one and not the other. personally i find that outside of the extreme cases (spiders, etc) trip is usually easier to land. typically though an enemy that is strong vs trip is weak vs stun, and vice versa. they compliment each other. yes stunning blow causes helplessness, but is it really needed? im able to mow through mobs pretty nicely without making them all helpless, and i dont usually bother much with sense weakness either. lately im finding the helpless to be very valuable in higher levels hox, where you have high priority target you need to kill asap and there is no such thing as overkill. the rest though? nah.

Which is fine in lower level content, you may not need the CC, extra damage from helpless, etc.. but in Legendary you are not mowing through mobs, this is where we want the tactics to come into play and are contributors for success.



i think its incredibly irritating, beyond all mother****ing belief, that tactics bonuses are separated. and then turbine does something wondrous and magical by giving melees an item like innocents, and then proves that it was just a fluke by pushing str item onto boots, and not giving us a new +all tactics item. they should just consolidate the +stun/trip/sunder into +enhancement (or whatever the **** type it is) combat mastery, and keep insightful combat mastery. and possibly add quality, profane, exceptional, psionic, rage, special combat mastery... however, when i was playing pure kensei and doj came out, i was using hook boots because i had to, which takes care of +trip and +combat mastery, and wearing visions of precision for +stun. i did not feel like i was stretching myself too thin. if i had tried to fit in a +sunder item, then i would.


I would love to see tactics consolidated, even if it was some sort of an enhancement choice in the fighter lines to give them the edge over self healing Paladins and Barbarians.




lay waste is available to fighters. so is shield charge, which honestly, vanguard is more of a tactics build than kensei. dc are not challenging to attain for a pure kensei currently, at all (except for u27 content), the issue with the class/spec is immense lack of dps to be competitive. mass hold and earth quake cost spell points, if spell points were infinite then itd be different, but as it is i think that if kensei gains a sufficient amount of dps, an aoe helpless on a free sustained dmg class will be op. i think it would be better to add 1-2 single target cc to fighter/kensei and give kensei a reset mechanic, so that mass cc is possible but you have to work at it to keep it up. also, lay waste, earthquake, shield charge do not cause helplessness. and again concerning dire charge, i have a hard time seeing it being better than deific warding unless content becomes too easy again.

Well like anything else, I would expect tactics to require development and sacrifice, spending feats, enhancements that would historically go into DPS for the glass cannon builds..

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I have played every class many times and easily 5x as many eye brow raising multi-class variants over the years including many lives and variants of fighters

My issue with fighter tactics is for the most part.. Boss fights... where you want tactics to be effective, but they are not, they become useless..
There are lots of classes and other ways to pick off one trash mob at a time from another room and bring them back in manageable numbers.. anybody can do this.. that's not a 'fighter tactic', that is gaming strategy.

Primarially where I would expect and want the fighter tactics to come into play is when you don't have the option to pick 1 mob at a time or are facing the endfight boss or waves of trash mobs.


Which is fine in lower level content, you may not need the CC, extra damage from helpless, etc.. but in Legendary you are not mowing through mobs, this is where we want the tactics to come into play and are contributors for success.

past lives =/= mastery, or even competency: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/469776-paladin15-Ftr2-3

which is why i hate rednames on principle, and think that they are absolutely cancerous to the game. also why i dont give a rats ass about mortal fear, and am glad that they effectively eliminated it, because it was warping their design strategy considerably to include red names every 2 feet.
generic gaming strategies arent specific to fighters, no. neither is a lack of generic gaming strategies. if a lack of general strategy or "tactics" is going to be included in a "tactics" (really, i find the label to be a misnomer, theyre character abilities, or perhaps tactical abilities, we are all just lazy and call them tactics) discussion, i dont see why one wouldnt include said general strategies for objectivity. one side arguments serve no purpose and achieve and demonstrate absolutely nothing.

i can always pick one mob, and if it high enough priority, i will make sure i stun/trip it. against a wave of mobs that is actually dangerous, disabling two opponents with the ability to nuke one, removing it instantly is pretty significant. the only issue is again red names, and that should change.


to be more specific, in le creeping death and curse the sky, i dont particularly find myself needing helpless damage, trip and/or stun are very good just for reducing incoming damage. in le vale quests, lh/le ts and hox i feel pretty **** effective at killing things. the dps isnt as comical as it is in content with less hp bloat, but its still close enough, mostly deterred by the new accuracy problems more than anything else. havent run le shroud yet, but in lh i think my dps is also more than sufficient against trash, and nothing where id really want the helpless is even stunnable at all. so basically in the new content, the only thing im finding the helpless damage worthwhile on is the beholders in hox because they are a major threat to raid completion, and basically cannot die fast enough, qualifying them for overkill-is-good levels of dps.

[undercover69]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.28.102
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Dworf Tactic
Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(20 Fighter)
Hit Points: 392
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 21
Reflex: 5
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 28
Dexterity 9 9
Constitution 18 24
Intelligence 13 13
Wisdom 10 10
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 17.5
Bluff 0 -2
Concentration 0 10
Diplomacy 0 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 0 -2
Heal 0 0
Hide 0 -1
Intimidate 0 1
Jump 4 35
Listen 0 0
Move Silently 0 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 2 3
Spellcraft 0 1
Spot 0 0
Swim 4 32
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Single Weapon Fighting


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Heavy Armor Training


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Improved Single Weapon Fighting


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Trip


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Heavy Armor Combatant


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Tacticle Master


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Tacticle Supremacy


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Heavy Armor Champion
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Heavy Armor Master


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Iron Stomach (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Iron Stomach (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Tactics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Tactics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Tactics (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Spiritual Bond (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strike With No Thought (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Power Surge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - One Cut (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Alacrity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Contemplation (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Contemplation (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Contemplation (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Damage (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Critical Damage (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Keen Edge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - To the Fore! (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Specialization I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - No Weakness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Armor Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Armor Training (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Armor Training (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Brutality (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Brutality (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Brutality (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 3)






So, he's level 5 now and I already made some changes. When I went to take the heavy armor training I noticed that the in-game description was quite different from the character generator's. I thought that feat gave 12 PRR/MRR, but it only gives 3. So I took Stunning Blow earlier. And at lvl 4 I took weapon specialization.

Now, before level 6 I'm planning to exchange PA for CE and take improved trip at 6. Dunno what I should take at 9.

And I found a +1 Int tome in the TR cache, so I have an extra skill point from now on. Perhaps I'll invest in spot.

Anyone has any ideas?

P.S.: before too much annoyance I crafted him a ring of Will+5 ;)

[the_one_dwarfforged]

So, he's level 5 now and I already made some changes. When I went to take the heavy armor training I noticed that the in-game description was quite different from the character generator's. I thought that feat gave 12 PRR/MRR, but it only gives 3. So I took Stunning Blow earlier. And at lvl 4 I took weapon specialization.

Now, before level 6 I'm planning to exchange PA for CE and take improved trip at 6. Dunno what I should take at 9.

And I found a +1 Int tome in the TR cache, so I have an extra skill point from now on. Perhaps I'll invest in spot.

Anyone has any ideas?

P.S.: before too much annoyance I crafted him a ring of Will+5 ;)

improved trip is not worth taking, ce is a massively useless feat...pa is awesome...

[undercover69]

improved trip is not worth taking, ce is a massively useless feat...pa is awesome...

I don't like ce either, but tactics is the purpose of this build so I took improved trip. He's lvl 6 now, I ended up exchanging weapon specialization for ce. Later on I'll retake it.

[Discpsycho]

If you've got the feats at heroic levels, CE isn't worthless by the time you reach epics, as Legendary Dreadnought's T2 Improved Combat Expertise gives +20 PRR. People often take Heavy Armor or Epic DR for an extra 10 or 15 PRR, and these don't give access to things like Improved Trip and Whirlwind. If you can work the Int into a fighter-heavy build (or Monk, or maybe even Acrobat), you'll have enough feats to make it worthwhile.

[undercover69]

If you've got the feats at heroic levels, CE isn't worthless by the time you reach epics, as Legendary Dreadnought's T2 Improved Combat Expertise gives +20 PRR. People often take Heavy Armor or Epic DR for an extra 10 or 15 PRR, and these don't give access to things like Improved Trip and Whirlwind. If you can work the Int into a fighter-heavy build (or Monk, or maybe even Acrobat), you'll have enough feats to make it worthwhile.

Thanks for the info!