Paralyzing arrow DC for legendary elite?

[CThruTheEgo]

Can anyone confirm what a viable DC is for paralyzing arrows in legendary elite content? 60? 70? 80? I'd like to get an idea of how much investment is necessary for it to be worthwhile. Thanks in advance.

[BigErkyKid]

My question is: do you need them to be no fail? While I don't doubt that you can get pretty high wisdom, with high alacrity and double shot maybe it pays to just wait for Mobs to make a bad roll.

On another note: does anyone have some news on whether all crit enhancers and suck work on repeater? I am asking because if you are interested in high proc rate for para arrows this seems like the best option. Say take a needle and rock it.

[Saekee]

My question is: do you need them to be no fail? While I don't doubt that you can get pretty high wisdom, with high alacrity and double shot maybe it pays to just wait for Mobs to make a bad roll.

On another note: does anyone have some news on whether all crit enhancers and suck work on repeater? I am asking because if you are interested in high proc rate for para arrows this seems like the best option. Say take a needle and rock it.

I assumed that it would be throwers with the faster proc rate (pretty sure the AA imbues do not work on repeaters although I assume you mean a repeater with paralyzing already).
Sorry Cthru do not mean to derail.

[BigErkyKid]

I assumed that it would be throwers with the faster proc rate (pretty sure the AA imbues do not work on repeaters although I assume you mean a repeater with paralyzing already).
Sorry Cthru do not mean to derail.

If they don't, then my bad. See, a misinformed comment. I am only now getting into crafting ranged toons.

In any case the question would be whether it is worth bothering too much reaching a decent DC.

Instead one could rely on many procs and mobs failing saves.

I am saying this because aside of trash (That I assume can be kited) para arrows have no use.

[CThruTheEgo]

My question is: do you need them to be no fail? While I don't doubt that you can get pretty high wisdom, with high alacrity and double shot maybe it pays to just wait for Mobs to make a bad roll.

I don't necessarily need to reach no fail numbers. But the difference between a 5% and 50% proc rate, even with a high rate of fire, is pretty significant. Without an idea of what no fail actually is, I can't determine how much investment is needed. For example, if I can reach a 60 DC with almost no investment, but a 70 with minor investment, and 80 is no fail, I'd rather make the investment and have a 50% success chance than the 5% with no investment. But I can't know how much investment I should make without knowing what a legendary elite effective DC actually is.


On another note: does anyone have some news on whether all crit enhancers and suck work on repeater? I am asking because if you are interested in high proc rate for para arrows this seems like the best option. Say take a needle and rock it.

I'm pretty sure I recall unbongwah saying that archer imbues do not work on repeaters, but I could be misremembering that. Regardless, I'm only interested in making a bow user because that's what I want to play atm. I created this thread to explore a potential build option.


In any case the question would be whether it is worth bothering too much reaching a decent DC.

Yes, that is precisely my question. :) Which is why I'd like to hear from someone who has actually used paralyzing arrows in LE.


I am saying this because aside of trash (That I assume can be kited) para arrows have no use.

Correct. But with trash mobs hitting for 3k damage before PRR is factored in, some solid CC would be a valuable asset. I'm not interested in a caster because I don't want to worry about overcoming spell pen and, as I said earlier, I'm interested in playing a bow user atm. And yes, I know that Sev has said they may adjust LE stats including damage, but who knows when that will be or how it will turn out.

[BigErkyKid]

Here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/469283-SR-and-DC-checks-in-end-game-need-some-help

Recommended 73 DC for enchant. So you can work backwards of that.

Assuming that this is just no fail (mobs fail on a 20), it means that mobs are rolling 52+1d20.

Which means that anything smaller than a 52 mod is as good as nothing.

Now since the DC is enchantment+20+wisdom, this means:

5 enchantment (say the cloak)
20 base

Which leaves a WIS mod of 27 to break the barrier of some benefit. That is Wisdom 64.

You can rework this fine tuning as much as you want. For example, say enchant 60 is your target to bit, then:

Mobs: 40+1d20

Minimum modifier for WIS: 40-25=15, which is wisdom of 40.

If those are the numbers I would certainly NOT worry to get any good paralyzing arrows. I would probably not take the enhancement and use a TF with paralyzing at most, freeing the imbue.

It is always the same when you have the possibility to stack so many benefits: they cannot have variability between landing with some frequency and not landing at all.

There are a lot of enhancements that are really cool (and not as OP as the arrows) but that scale terribly.

[unbongwah]

I think you're forgetting that AA add +4 bonus to Enchant DCs; SF:Enchant + Enchant Specialist Twist is another +4. So your baseline for a "serious" Paralyzing Arrow AA is 20 + 4 (AA bonuses) + 4 (SF:Enchant+Twist) + 7 (Band Immaterial (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:The_Band_Immaterial_%28level_28%29)) = 35 DC. If the goal is 60 DC, then you "only" need WIS 60. How hard is that?! :rolleyes:

BTW, does anyone know if the DC bonus from Arcane Insight applies to AA DCs too?

[CrackedIce]

I think you're forgetting that AA add +4 bonus to Enchant DCs; SF:Enchant + Enchant Specialist Twist is another +4. So your baseline for a "serious" Paralyzing Arrow AA is 20 + 4 (AA bonuses) + 4 (SF:Enchant+Twist) + 7 (Band Immaterial (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:The_Band_Immaterial_%28level_28%29)) = 35 DC. If the goal is 60 DC, then you "only" need WIS 60. How hard is that?! :rolleyes:

BTW, does anyone know if the DC bonus from Arcane Insight applies to AA DCs too?

In my opinion, the goal should really be, obtaining 60+ DC without needing feywild for the added +4 enchant DC since doing this would be forfeiting the higher DPS feat options.

The only real way to accomplish this is to go all level ups in wisdom so that:

Wisdom - base 16 - 7 level ups - 5 tome - 3 enhancements - 2 spooky - 2 guild - 14 equipment - 4 insightful - 1 exceptional = 50

To fill in remaining 10:

Now you can start 18 base, go insightful higher than 4. You can add another enhancement, you can add more tome value, there are now quality bonuses, there are destiny wisdom options, there is alchemical wisdom bonus.

Or

Plus you can choose elf to get another +1 DC, or get secondary spell focus DC. there is now +6 enchantment focus available. You can get augment spell focus for another +2.

I took arcane insight on my AA for higher wisdom save mobs like blackguards.

But choosing feywild does make the options much easier and obtainable.

Don't forget you can get creative with debuffer options as well. Dazing on items. One level wizard splash with taking 1 ap in archmage for hypnotism nets you 1 sp cost for Hypnotism. Even on a save, debuffs -3 wisdom save. Shaken affect can do a similar debuff as well. If you work with another cold based AA or switch between para and cold based improved elemental arrows allows you to stack -5 to will.

Speaking of shaken, is Injury from Fury destiny still allowing a save for the shaken effect?

[BigErkyKid]

You are right guys maybe I didn't give it enough consideration. When I saw the high dcs I thought screw that!

If you want to seriously consider it then , add the augment from giant hold for a base 37 piling of what unbongwah said.

Then to reach 52 you only need 17 mod, which is 44 wisdom. Now that's to start gaining something from it and committing a feat, a twist and a ring slot. If you are going to go that far in wisdom I can only see the benefits from going at least 6 monk for 10k stars.

Running speed and others perks just sweeten the deal. Which kind of brings you back to either 14/6 splits or 12/6/2 throwing some paladin in there.

Hardcore archers probably will tell you to do that or a monk Cher. But again, I'm not a huge fan of investing too much on something that is so situational. I would only do it for a monkcher.

I am. It considering it so far because I want to be able to respec easily for melee and I want to be able to get the strength lever in tempest spine.

But it might not be a bad idea anyway for those dedicated archers out there.

[Nightmanis]

Running speed and others perks just sweeten the deal. Which kind of brings you back to either 14/6 splits or 12/6/2 throwing some paladin in there.

Hardcore archers probably will tell you to do that or a monk Cher. But again, I'm not a huge fan of investing too much on something that is so situational. I would only do it for a monkcher.

I am. It considering it so far because I want to be able to respec easily for melee and I want to be able to get the strength lever in tempest spine.

But it might not be a bad idea anyway for those dedicated archers out there.

I'm going 13/6/1 Monk Ranger Rogue dex/wis build. Gives a good 10k, and I took the tier 5 in DWS because it makes for a better dps build than tier 5 AA. Went Shadarkai because I didn't care to be a pdk, but besides a bladeforged really any race would do fine with that split. Rogue is only because I don't want to use a +1 lr, and it also means I can max UMD.

Gonna be exciting to see how it plays out!

[BigErkyKid]

I'm going 13/6/1 Monk Ranger Rogue dex/wis build. Gives a good 10k, and I took the tier 5 in DWS because it makes for a better dps build than tier 5 AA. Went Shadarkai because I didn't care to be a pdk, but besides a bladeforged really any race would do fine with that split. Rogue is only because I don't want to use a +1 lr, and it also means I can max UMD.

Gonna be exciting to see how it plays out!

Sounds pretty solid. I will go pure ranger just because I want to be able to respec back to melee ASAP once I get tired of these raids.

I think pretty much any solid ranged toon is a better bet than anything else in those raids, paralyzing arrows or not.

[Nightmanis]

Sounds pretty solid. I will go pure ranger just because I want to be able to respec back to melee ASAP once I get tired of these raids.

I think pretty much any solid ranged toon is a better bet than anything else in those raids, paralyzing arrows or not.

I just like the idea of having a bow. I've grown to love the style of play, the totally different tactics needed, etc while playing my mechanic. But now I can build an actual bow user that can do everything the mechanic can do but with better burst dps.

Right now I'm pretty much sticking to a great crossbow until I'm actually taking on a boss simply because of the knockdown on vorpals. I don't have the past lives to justify it for outright dps but the tactical side is just too good to pass up. I even went and made a tf tier 2 paralyzer one too improve on this. I'll make a similar longbow for my ranger.

[CThruTheEgo]

Here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/469283-SR-and-DC-checks-in-end-game-need-some-help

Recommended 73 DC for enchant. So you can work backwards of that.

Thanks for that. I saw that thread but glanced over that comment too quickly and thought it was related to the spell penetration discussion.


Assuming that this is just no fail (mobs fail on a 20), it means that mobs are rolling 52+1d20.

Which means that anything smaller than a 52 mod is as good as nothing.

Now since the DC is enchantment+20+wisdom, this means:

I've already got the breakdown. I had it before starting this thread, in fact. I was just wondering what number was required to be effective so I could determine how much investment was actually needed.

As far as I can tell, this should be pretty close to max (missing quality wis, I know that at least. Fitting that in is dependent on a whole gear set, I believe, so I didn't include that):

Wis70: 18 base, 7 levels, 7 tome, 2 guild, 4 enhancements, 6 divine crusader, 14 item, 7 insight item, 1 exc, 2 spooky, 2 profane

Paralyzing arrows DC:
20 base
30 wis70
3 spell focus x3
3 magister's enchantment specialist
4 scion of the feywild
4 arcane archer imbues (terror, banishing, smiting, paralyzing)
6 enchantment focus item
2 enchantment focus augment
2 insightful spell focus item (Leathers of the Celestial Sage)
1 past life wiz
1 past life bard
1 completionist
1 elf enchantment lore
78 MAX TOTAL

That is obviously an excessive investment and would gimp the build in a number of ways. I just wanted to see what was possible as a point of reference. This is closer to what I will actually be doing:

Wis56: 16 base, 6 tome, 2 guild, 4 enhancements, 1 human, 4 divine crusader, 14 item, 4 insight, 1 exc, 2 spooky, 2 profane

Paralyzing arrows DC:
20 base
23 wis56
1 spell focus enchantment
3 magister enchantment specialist
2 scion of the air/earth
4 arcane archer imbues (terror, banishing, smiting, paralyzing)
6 enchantment focus item
2 enchantment focus augment
2 insightful spell focus item (Leathers of the Celestial Sage)
63 TOTAL

Thanks for the help everyone. I'll post the full build when I get a chance either today or tomorrow.

[kendo]

when reading through the posts here, I see several where people are plotting out Paralyzing arrow DC's. unlike spells, I am not seeing any way to hover over the skill bar or look through the combat logs to see what the game thinks your DC's are. am I missing something that would show me in game what my current DC value is? or do you just plot it out manually and go from there?

[Smokewolf]

Dont forget that using a cursing weapon and / or augments that prock level drain will lower the DC requirement. Bestter still you can see which mobs have been hit and not yet paralyzed.

[barecm]

I have been doing fine with DC 69. It may not be no fail, but it is pretty close when using IPS / building for doubleshot.

LVL 30 breakdown

20 - Base
26 - Wis 62: 16 base, +1 past life human, +7 tome, max crafted 15/7, 2 spooky, 2 ship, 4 AA/Deepwood, 2 profane, 4 quality, 1 exceptional, 1 twist, 2 yugo...
2 - Heroic Feats (enchantment focus, greater enchantment focus
3 magister's enchantment specialist twist
4 scion of the feywild
4 arcane archer imbues (terror, banishing, smiting, paralyzing)
6 enchantment focus item
2 enchantment focus augment
2 insightful spell focus item (Leathers of the Celestial Sage)

It is actually not THAT hard to achieve. You can back off the +7 tome to a +5 if you need to and not see too much drop off. You can level up your Cannith crafting to get the wisdom and enchantment items and a slavers item to get the quality 4 bonus. The hardest pull is the right celestial sage armor, but persistence pays as you can do a trade in eventually. If you want a bunch of slavers gear, then the grind there can be slow, but not impossible by any means. The rest is just feats, twists, and enhancements.

When you get into reaper, there is a total of +4 from reapers focus, bringing it up to 73. But that is a HUGE grind.

[BurnerD]

I recently TR'd my enchantment dc paralyzing ranger so dont ask for a breakdown, but my DC at lvl 30 was 75 or 76. On most mobs it was pretty much no fail, although certain mobs still saved against it (one of the kobold types and one of the gnoll types in slavers comes to mind).

That was only with a 3 piece slave lords sorcery set. I was thinking with a 5 piece set and something else tweaked I could hit 80, but TR'd before I tested it.

Going to go back to this build next life...