Build Idea: Roulette Tank

[Qezuzu]

tl;dr 18rog/2mnk with Intimidate and Meld into Darkness Twist

So the changes to Intimidate and the new feats that gives +4 dodge cap (Scion of Air and Astral Plane) have got me thinking: is a dodge tank workable?

If I'm not mistaken, a pure 20 Rogue Acrobat gets a maximum dodge cap of 38% (including the ship buff). With one of the new feat that becomes 42%, and if I take a 2 monk splash I can get another +3 dodge cap from Ninja Spy (someone correct me if I'm wrong, it may not stack with Acro stuff) for a total of 45% dodge (you'll need some stacks of Nimbleness to reach this cap, probably). 48% is possible with Halfling but there's probably not enough AP's for it (plus you're giving up a feat and damage boost, why is human so OP).

Now, of course, it's still only 45%, and chances are you're gonna get hit if you're attacked more than a few times. But with Improved Uncanny Dodge, Meld into Darkness and Hood of Unrest, you can have 20+15+25 = 60 seconds of almost complete invincibility. Primal Avatar gives an additional 50% dodge clickie in Primal Travel but PA is kinda trash unless you're using tree form, but PT does have a mere one-minute cooldown compared to the two-minute cooldown of IUD and MID, in fact if you cycle it like PT->IUD->MID->HOU, PT will be off cooldown by the time you're done. This gives a continuous 84 seconds of almost-god-mode. Without HOU, as it only has one charge, you will have roughly 50% uptime of almost-god-mode, if I'm doing my math correctly. But again, this depends on being in Primal Avatar which is really trashy and basically has zero benefits for THF characters.

Another thing to note, HOU can be used on other characters, meaning with some coordination you can extend your almost-god-mode even further. Three people using HOU on you is almost enough to close the gap between cooldowns, giving you almost 155 seconds of almost-constant-almost-god-mode (IUD->MID->HOU->HOU->HOU->ten second wait->IUD->MID). With a full raid group you can do this cycle four times, for about ten minutes of almost-god-mode per rest, but really I doubt there will ever be content where this level of coordination is useful.

Of course, you're only reaching 95% dodge (except during MID, and again 98% is possible with halfling but then imo you're becoming too gimp) and factoring in Displacement, Elusive Target and mob rolling a 1, you have about a 2.25% chance of being hit. That 2.25% chance is interesting because mobs in the new raids, on elite, are liable to OHKO you...

...hence the term, "Roulette Tank."

Of course, measures can be taken to get out of one-shot range, and it probably involves being in Unyielding Sentinel, but screw that. So scared of a 2.25% chance of death every hit that you're gonna give up all the goodies in Dreadnought? Especially since the dodge version of Blitz is the most sure-fire way to actually maintain that 45% dodge cap.

Of course, we need to do something useful with all this dodge, and since Intimidate is a class skill, why not try that? I have no idea if useful intimidate is feasible on a Rogue, nor do I have any idea what numbers would need to be reached, but as far as I can tell holding aggro will be pretty easy if your threat increases by 200*intimidate on a successful skill check. Holding aggro against a couple mobs should be trivial even if you're not getting sneak attacks (you can stack threat easily, 200% from Earth Stance 150% from US Twist 45% Circle of Malevolence 50% intimidate effect). Again I don't know what sort of intimidate can be obtained, probably 33 levels+25 item+10 CHA+tons of small bonuses I don't feel like listing. It might be too difficult against a group since you don't have much AoE damage, but if you can get something like 150 intimidate (so 30k threat every six seconds), your party members will really have to work in order to pull aggro.

Now, the important part: obviously, a PRR/HP tank doesn't have to mess around with clickies that only last 15 seconds, so what's the point? The point is: PRR/HP tanks won't be able to tank more than a few mobs at once, cause in Legendary Elite Raids they just hit so hard. But with a sufficient amount of luck (let's be real 2.25% isn't that small a probability), you can safely aggro entire rooms of mobs, even if they hit for a billion damage, and uh kill them I guess. Plus you have web traps anyway so it's not like you'll ever need to use all your dodge clickies in succession if you're just handling trash.

Now, just a few more thoughts:

Ftr3 gives another +3 dodge cap, but you lose 18 Acrobat core so it's only 1 more dodge cap. So 49% is the maximum dodge cap (Halfling), but it's really not worth it cause you lose 20% doublestrike, too.

Rogue is required for dodge tanking cause they get the highest dodge and they also get IUD. Without Rogue you would probably have to do some ridiculous Ftr/Bard/Barb build to get anywhere near the same level of dodge and it would suck.

Complete your almost-god-mode build with a sufficient supply of spell absorption items. EE Jeweled Cloak, Pale Lav. Ioun Stone and Magestar should be enough for most content. Epic Mirror Cloak and Mantle of the Worldshaper for good measure.

I really would appreciate a breakdown for Intimidate sources, thanks in advance.

[Ayseifn]

I'd probably do the 3 fighter thing on a rogue tank, maybe 13 rog/4 fighter/3 ranger halfling so you can get 49% dodge as well as defender stance and whatever else. According to the wiki monk dodge cap increase wont stack with kensei so you're screwed there, need to go 3 ranger, 3 fighter, 3 halfling if you want all three +3's from what I understand. Have to gimp yourself as a tank but what's new there, pull out staff for DPS and use shield +intim to tank.

More sad news for you too, defensive roll doesn't work with bucklers when I last tested in the rogue pass, so even if you can get past one hit deaths it wont automagically be two hit deaths which is a shame.

Only other thing I'd like to point out is Dreamscape, it has a one min cool down and seems to works like tea with the queen. So if you want to do agro swaps because of a lack of dodge boosts it could work.

[Vanhooger]

the first rouge tank I see on Cannith, I swear I quit ddo.:D

[Saekee]

interesting idea. What about adding tanking bonuses from arcane barriers--3rd tier EK, monk with sun soul earth vorpal or arti level 5 spell? or some other source?

[Ayseifn]

the first rouge tank I see on Cannith, I swear I quit ddo.:D

Wouldn't be the first rogue tank in DDO:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5BZBWaUagE

[MalarKan]

Wouldn't be the first rogue tank in DDO:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5BZBWaUagE

Aaahh the good ol' days... so many rogue tanks that only a few have seen. I was a rogue tank myself a few lives ago... nowadays i dont play anymore, and my rogue was left stuck as a lvl 1 8th rogue life lol.

As for the thread, dont know if dodge is viable for tanking, unless the game has changed since the last i played, you will still need a high PRR and HP, since as high as your dodge is, while Meld into darkness is on cooldown, a couple strikes from an epic boss might crush you into a confused soulstone claiming to have a 50+% dodge :P

Back in the day i had a well balanced pure intimi-rogue with 800 hp before epic destinies, was able to tank most bosses on heroics and some epics like "devastator" in Chronoscope, but it was meant to have intimidates and bluff for specific situations, like draging the agro away from the healer or wizz for a few seconds, when HP and Imp' Uncanny dodge kept me alive, which would buy us a few secs to get our raid togueter .. or back on their feet with Resurrection.

Anyways, i doubt my experience would mean as much if the game has changed, but i guess your best bet is to balance the best dodge you can get with the highest PRR you can achieve... along with HP :P

cheers!

[Faltout]

As for the thread, dont know if dodge is viable for tanking, unless the game has changed since the last i played, you will still need a high PRR and HP, since as high as your dodge is, while Meld into darkness is on cooldown, a couple strikes from an epic boss might crush you into a confused soulstone claiming to have a 50+% dodge :P

Anyways, i doubt my experience would mean as much if the game has changed, but i guess your best bet is to balance the best dodge you can get with the highest PRR you can achieve... along with HP :P

cheers!
I believe the thread was created because HP and PRR don't matter anymore in LE (Legendary Elite) content. Every monster WILL kill you in one hit unless you have like 200 PRR and 2000 HP (in which case, 2 hits). So, it's much more safe to invest in dodge/ghostly/displacement than PRR and HP.

Btw, OP missed ghostly that adds another 10% chance to miss. Which brings the death chance down to... 2.03% :p (0.95 miss chance * 0.5 displ * 0.9 ghostly * 0.05 dodge * 0.95 elusive) And a 22.3% death chance when none of the buffs to dodge is active (45%). That's pretty good odds :)

[MalarKan]

I believe the thread was created because HP and PRR don't matter anymore in LE (Legendary Elite) content. Every monster WILL kill you in one hit unless you have like 200 PRR and 2000 HP (in which case, 2 hits).

LoL.. so its basically just like it was in the old epics? :P

[Qezuzu]

interesting idea. What about adding tanking bonuses from arcane barriers--3rd tier EK, monk with sun soul earth vorpal or arti level 5 spell? or some other source?

I'm hesitant to go below 18 rogue. You start losing dodge then, and you lose that 20% doublestrike which is just so much.

Furthermore, I would probably need a ton of investment to get out of one-shot range, a lot more than even something like Radiant Forcefield will give.


LoL.. so its basically just like it was in the old epics? :P

Stuff didn't OHKO you back then.


As for the thread, dont know if dodge is viable for tanking, unless the game has changed since the last i played, you will still need a high PRR and HP, since as high as your dodge is, while Meld into darkness is on cooldown, a couple strikes from an epic boss might crush you into a confused soulstone claiming to have a 50+% dodge :P

First off, MID isn't the only clickie we're using. The 50% clickies will get you into a mostly invincible state as well and extends your uptime of almost-god-mode.

Second off, perpetual tanking is beyond the scope of a dodge tank, you're right. Ignoring Hood of Unrest, MID+IUD only give 25% ~uptime, we're going to be out of almost-god-mode far more often than we'll be in it. Ideally what I'd do in a quest is either:

a. be invincible just long enough to hold the attention of some trash, either so other party members can kill/CC them, or so that I can use web traps on them myself
b. be invincible just long enough to get a ton of damage off

In a. standard trash mobs won't be very difficult. What will be difficult is bosses like in pt2 of Shroud, who will take much longer to kill. But against just trash, we can very easily grab a bunch, lay down a web trap or two or three, and kill most of them before the dodge expires.

b. is why I'm hesitant to go below 18 rogue. 20% doublestrike is just so much, and with the limited time of those clickies it's really important to do as much damage as we can. So I guess this isn't really a build thread (18rog/2mnk isn't anything ground-breaking), but more a thread discussing the applications of extremely high but brief dodge.

[Qezuzu]

So after a bit of testing, I have found that the reports of one-shotting are greatly exaggerating. Yes, things do tons of damage (around 2.5k to 3k damage before mitigation), but they can be survived, even on "squishy" classes (https://i.imgur.com/oN9SuFR.png), you just need to make some sacrifices and pump the PRR a bunch. I have 165 without Blitz:

45 Earth Stance (15 base 15 iron skin 15 GMoF twist)
35 Sightless
20 Improved Combat Expertise
20 Scion of the Plane of Earth
10 Epic Damage Reduction
10 Deific Warding
24 Past lives (another 12 possible)
1 Tome
27 (!) Legendary Boots of the Devil Commander (not yet obtained)

204 PRR is possible after 4 more epic past lives and the boots. 179 if you don't have a monk splash and are using light armor.

However, the AP's are really tight (https://i.imgur.com/QDKCeFa.png). You need to make a hard choice between Execute+1 rank of Killer+Nimbleness+weakening strikes, or Spell Traps. No room for the +3 dodge cap. I think spells traps are the best but that's just me.

Of course, with this PRR you still have a dodge cap of 38%, which can be boosted to 88% (and 100% ofc). Furthermore, we have Thick Skinned from Dreadnought and Spinning Staff Wall, greatly adding to our survivability (in quests where there isn't such a fine line between one-shot and two-shot).

All-in-all this is really survivable. There are more than a few sacrifices in damage (loss of capstone meaning 2 less SA dice, Scion of Earth instead of the 20 MP one, no Execute or Killer [tho DB is really close to cap anyway], etc.) but really a soul stone doesn't do damage anyway. If you're alive for a greater portion than a max-DPS toon, and can be more aggressive, honestly I think it'd be a net gain in damage over the course of the raid.

This blend of high dodge and high PRR is probably the best bet if you're gonna do a lot of LE raiding. Now all that's left is testing Web traps and intimidate (I only just reached 30 today, was 20 yesterday so I haven't had a chance to run the raids yet).

[Ayseifn]

Good stuff, here's a basic intimidate list that probably misses a ton of things but is a start:

23 ranks
10 epic levels
2 complete
5 claw gloves/LGS(Enhancement)
25 circle of mal(Competence)
4 gh
2-4 luck
3-4 guild - Old school guild slots on armour or shield slots can go up to 4
1 spider mask(profane)
6 classic greensteel(Exceptional)
2-10 LGS(Insight) - New random loot can have 10 insightful skill I believe, otherwise 2 from the new LGS
1 LGS(quality) - can probably do better here with either lootgen or some named item I forgot
3 Skill mastery epic past life feat - lose out on 9 DS, so situational
92-103

That's before char mod though and requires 3 gear slots to hit 92, more for 103. Can get more with skill boosts and the like but you're saying you're tight on AP so not sure if you want them included.

Charisma can be whatever you want but will cost a lot of gear slots again, I'll throw a lot here so you can mix and match:

8 base - for non terrible classes, more if you want to invest
7 tome
2 completionist
2 ship buff
8-15 enhancement - augment for 8 or loot gen again for 15
2-? insight - again +2 aug, everything else is either named items you probably don't want otherwise or lootgen
2 profane - lit of the dead
2 yugo pot
1-2 quality - LGS or lootgen for +2 if I understand things right.
34-47 before build points, so 12-18 mod.

So that's 104 for 3-5 or so item slots and a lot more for 120. There's more out there with the house d pots(really shouldn't count), more base cha(should count) and APs in certain fighter, paladin or other trees. Also more from bard, probably some ED things and whatever else, should hopefully be a decent start though.

[CThruTheEgo]

So 49% is the maximum dodge cap (Halfling)

The halfling pure rogue assassin in my sig has a dodge cap of 51% in shadowdancer. Shadow form from shadowdancer also gives you 25% incorp. See the link for a breakdown. That number does rely on full stacks of measure the foe, but if you're plan is to manage several short term clickies as you suggest, then dropping into sneak mode every ten seconds to keep up full stacks of measure the foe shouldn't be too tedious.

I also provide breakdowns of dodge and max dex bonus. Dodge reaches 51 also, but max dex bonus is only 45 with shadowscale light armor. The new raid light armor, Leathers of the Celestial Avenger, however, has 24 base max dex bonus, which is 5 more than shadowscale's 19. That would bring max dex bonus up to 50.

Just something else for you to consider OP.

[Kompera_Oberon]

I believe the thread was created because HP and PRR don't matter anymore in LE (Legendary Elite) content. Every monster WILL kill you in one hit unless you have like 200 PRR and 2000 HP (in which case, 2 hits). So, it's much more safe to invest in dodge/ghostly/displacement than PRR and HP.

Btw, OP missed ghostly that adds another 10% chance to miss. Which brings the death chance down to... 2.03% :p (0.95 miss chance * 0.5 displ * 0.9 ghostly * 0.05 dodge * 0.95 elusive) And a 22.3% death chance when none of the buffs to dodge is active (45%). That's pretty good odds :)

There are no Champions or bosses (or red/purple named) with Dodge bypass?


So after a bit of testing, I have found that the reports of one-shotting are greatly exaggerating. Yes, things do tons of damage (around 2.5k to 3k damage before mitigation), but they can be survived, even on "squishy" classes (https://i.imgur.com/oN9SuFR.png), you just need to make some sacrifices and pump the PRR a bunch. I have 165 without Blitz:

[snippage]

Of course, with this PRR you still have a dodge cap of 38%, which can be boosted to 88% (and 100% ofc). Furthermore, we have Thick Skinned from Dreadnought and Spinning Staff Wall, greatly adding to our survivability (in quests where there isn't such a fine line between one-shot and two-shot).
It's good to hear that ~165 PRR is considered a fair amount, because I'm right there and still have a few action boosts and similar abilities to push it up another 10-20 points temporarily (excluding Blitz). And about the same HP as you if I go US, but then there goes any PRR (and DPS) boost from Blitz. And I can't come close to your dodge... I have a 4 dodge, as I'm in heavy armor and tower shield.

I've lived through a LN Shroud and LN HoX though, running in DC even, so I'm not in the "ranting and raving" crowd even though I'm pretty sure I'd be slaughtered fast on LE. I haven't run L Tempest yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

[CThruTheEgo]

There are no Champions or bosses (or red/purple named) with Dodge bypass?

If I understand correctly, dodge and incorp are not bypassed by mobs. If they are, the number of mobs who can do this are very few. And if I'm wrong, I'd be interested in hearing from others what mobs can bypass dodge and incorp and by how much.

[Qezuzu]

Just some more thoughts, I feel like making a build post soon.

+33 CHA skill items is quick to make from Legendary Greensteel Item and gets your Intimidate very high. I am no-fail on Sor'jek, at least, I'm not sure if anything has a higher DC. Not had a good chance to test out situations where it's useful, but you're definitely not going to be as reliable as a shield build who's pushing 300 PRR and 2.5k HP. Super high dodge+intimidate probably has some interesting applications, though.

As much as a "living on the edge" feeling this is supposed to give, it's still REALLY ANNOYING when I die when Uncanny Dodge/Hood of Unrest is active. I think Sor'jek has loaded dice because he often achieves this despite only attacking like four times over the course of 20 seconds.

I'm really debating swapping Scion of the Plane of Earth for Scion of the Astral Plane, or whichever it is that gives +4 dodge cap, +8 doublestrike, +4 tactical DC, +4 reflex save. Acid damage is resisted so often but Doublestrike works on everything, +4 Dire Charge DC is very nice (though, at 86 with that feat, it's still nowhere near the level needed to hit everything), and of course there's the dodge cap. 88% dodge becomes 92%, a 33% reduced chance of getting hit during Uncanny Dodge. But then I lose 20 PRR... when you're north of 160 PRR, +20 is just about an additional 3% damage resisted, however that 3% is like 100 damage due to their crazy base damage. There's definitely many cases where, had I taken like an addition double-digit amount of damage, I'd have died...

...On the other hand, maybe I wouldn't have taken that damage at all if I had more dodge?!? And I've been awfully bad at remembering to use Spinning Staff Wall; it's weaker than the other defensive abilities, but has a much shorter cool-down and would fully compensate the PRR I would lose, and then some. I just need to remember to use it, that 50 PRR translates to over 100 less damage taken, depending on base damage and base PRR.

I'll probably end up switching feats, at the very least I will when I get the armor from TS, which is another +3 PRR. And of course I still have four divine past lives to go, but I just started a second character who will need tons of XP to get to a state I want them to be at, so I'll probably never get around to getting that +12 PRR.

Apparently, equipping a cleansed LGS accessory and another accessory at the same time will grant bonuses if they have similar aspects (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/469390-Legendary-greensteel-wep-bonus-effects-seems-same-formula-as-heroic-ones?p=5753585&viewfull=1#post5753585). One of these is Max Dodge boost, potentially +3 or higher with two completed LGS accessories. Gear would get tight: I really don't see a good place to put LGS besides goggles. Cloak would lose me just the heal amp (MRR is not that important), but I really do enjoy the huge heals from SF pots. However, in content where stuff does tons of damage, the extra dodge cap would help.

This +3 means, if I took Astral Plane, I would have a dodge cap of 45% (but my dodge would only be 42%, though this would be fixed with 3 Shadar-ki lives. For the time being, I can use another twist for GMoF +3 dodge, or use Water Stance if I plan on using Uncanny Dodge/Hood of Unrest). There is also the option of taking +3 dodge cap from Ninja Spy, but that would mean giving up one of:
-Spell Traps
-Assassin's Trick
-a bunch of stuff in Acrobat
-15 PRR

None of these options are preferable, but there is no harm in swapping spell traps for 48% dodge cap if you don't plan on using spell traps. Both take 8 AP, so resetting is easy. It'll probably save a few deaths, you're quite unlikely to be hit with 98% dodge (Sor'jek will find a way, though).

Also halfling can get 51% dodge but then you'd probably have to drop PRR.

By the way: I've mostly been speaking in context of LE raids (this would include future raids, of course), but this high dodge + high PRR lets you rock regular quests as well, of course. The dodge clickies, the PRR, the healing, etc. allows me to be super aggressive in something like EE ToEE. It's very hard to die if I'm paying attention.