Legendary Green Steel

[Vargouille]

Legendary Shroud and Legendary Green Steel (LGS) are coming! This post is about the broad, general structure of Legendary Green Steel crafting.

As many players know, Green Steel is a wide-reaching, complex crafting system. Some of these concepts here are fairly high level and abstract. This is not a post where every possible Green Steel effect is going to be listed. We're going to explain how it works on a high level, and a bit about how we're expecting it to be different from heroic (though you shouldn't need to know that process in detail to understand most of this post!)

Some of the design goals driving choices below include simplification and reducing error as much as possible, while some relate to technical challenges in such a large system where we are adding Augments.


High Level Concepts
Legendary Green Steel is a crafting system by which you collect various ingredients, craft weapons of nearly any kind, or accessory/equipment slots (but not armor, and some equipment slots are missing), and can upgrade those items several times to make them stronger.

Here's what you do:



Play Update 29 quests & raids, collecting ingredients. This includes all 3 raids - yes, Legendary Hound of Xoriat and Legendary Tempest Spine provide indirect access to Legendary Green Steel ingredients. (There's some extra steps here because we don't want to simply drop Devil Scales for players who might not even own the Vale and aren't going to be crafting LGS.) We currently plan for Tier 1 and Tier 2 ingredients to be found in various quests. Tier 3 ingredients will only drop in the Shroud.
Craft "blank" weapons and equipment. This will use crafting materials primarily from Shroud end-chests.
Craft Legendary Green Steel Augments (LGSA).

Each blank LGS item has 4 Green Steel Augment Slots. These slots cannot hold any augments that exist in Update 28 or earlier, but instead hold various kinds of Legendary Green Steel augments crafted from LGS ingredients. (These slots only hold Green Steel Augments, and these Green Steel Augments only go in these slots, in other words.)
There will be hundreds of different possible augments. There's a few different ways to count them, and some are definitely similar to one another, but depending on how you count them there are between ~120 and ~600 augments (depending on what you consider "different" augments - the lower number is ).



From a high level, that's Legendary Green Steel.

Legendary Green Steel Augments?
These are a new type of Augments, which are not compatible nor interchangeable with existing Augments and slots.

Each LGS blank has 4 slots: Tiers 1,2,3, plus an "Active" slot. Each tiered slot can hold an augment of the appropriate tier (crafted from ingredients), and the active slot can hold one augment which adds a "clicky" active ability to the item.

You can create and slot your Augments in any order. If you want to start with Tier 3, or just put in a an Active, go for it.

Weapons and Equipment (sometimes called "Accessories") have different tiered Augment slots. When you craft an augment, you might be specifically making a Tier 2 Weapon Air Dominion Ethereal augment, for instance. There is a similar augment for Equipment, but which produces a different effect than the weapon version, much like Heroic Green Steel. However, the Active slot is the same for weapons and equipment. Any active can be slotted into either weapons or equipment.

These Green Steel Augments will fit into existing Augment bags.

We expect to offer an ‘extractor’ type option in the Store specifically for these Green Steel Augments in the event that you want to replace a slot but don’t want to lose the augment you made.

Basic Information


Minimum Level: All LGS items, weapons and equipment, are currently planned to be minimum level 26.
Weapons have a base 5[W] damage.
There is no 20th reward list for Legendary raids.
You collect Codex Runes (name subject to change) by completing Legendary Shroud.

These are used to craft Blank weapons and equipment, and to deal with the Legendary Taint of Shavarath on Equipment.
You get more Codex Runes on Hard and even more on Elite.
These are BTA.
These might be used as turn-ins for other kinds of rewards (such as you might have found on a 20th reward list).


You collect Legendary tiered ingredients that are highly analogous to the tiered ingredients in Heroic Green Steel.

By "tiered", we mean things like Legendary Small Devil Scales, Legendary Medium Gnawed Bones, and Legendary Large Length of Infernal Chains.
There are six different ingredients per tier (just like Heroic).
These ingredients are BTA.


Blanks are the initial Weapons and Equipment with empty Augment slots.

These are created from Codex Runes at the Altar of Fecundity in Meridia. This is the exact same eldritch crafting device used for Heroic Green Steel. This one device has some of the recipes used for both Heroic and Legendary Green Steel.
Blanks are ML:26, and BTC. Legendary Green Steel items don't change minimum level nor binding status.


Crafting Legendary Green Steel Augments

These are created at three different tiers of new legendary altars within the Shroud, similar to Heroic Green Steel.
First you construct Focuses, Essences, and Gems at these altars, then combine those to create Augments. (This process is very similar to crafting Heroic Green Steel Shards.)
Legendary Green Steel Focuses, Essences, Gems, and Augments are BTA.
These Augments use a new custom UI. They don't behave exactly like existing (u28 and earlier) Augments!


Handwraps are not included in Legendary Green Steel in Update 29. We wanted to get the revamp of handwrap technology in for Update 29, but that's a fairly massive task and just couldn't be done. We understand this is quite frustrating for some players.



Deeper Details & Similarities and Difference from Heroic
The general structure is broadly similar to Heroic Green Steel.

Many Legendary Augments are similar to Heroic Shards

Our current plan is to that most of the tiered effects of Legendary Augments be similar in nature to the effects found in Heroic Shards, scaled up to Legendary potency. Bonuses here include things like spell powers, Wizardry, hitpoints, Exceptional bonuses to ability scores, saving throws, and bonuses to "Charisma" skills (for example), Insightful ability scores, Inherent elemental resist, etc. These are all kinds of bonuses currently accessible Heroic Green Steel tiered shards.

Barter Shop style UI
Like most modern crafting systems, you can see all the recipes. Just like Heroic Green Steel is like now, since my first task years ago converting the old mystery system to the new system.

Weapon & Equipment Augments
In Heroic, you make a single shard and apply it to either a weapon or equipment (aka: accessory), getting a different effect depending on which you put it in. Due to the use of Augments here, and lacking a desire to be highly mysterious, there are separate Augments for Weapons vs. Accessories. When you make a Tier 1 Fire Dominion Ethereal augment, you also choose if you are making a weapon or equipment augment, which can tell you exactly what it's going to do, unlike Heroic Green Steel (since the Shard could have been put into either a Weapon or Equipment.)

Tier 2 Active / Clicky / "Bonus" effects
Tier 1,2,3 Augments are very similar to Heroic shards of the same tiers. Instead of crafting a tier 3 Magma shard and applying it to your tier 2 weapon, you just craft a tier 3 Magma Weapon Augment and slot it into your weapon (possibly crushing the existing augment to bits). You don't have to go through the tiers in ascending order.

Those familiar with Heroic GS and paying close attention may notice the Active slot - in Heroic, this was generally granted by a "tier 2 Bonus Effect" (as it was sometimes known), which you got by choosing the appropriate Tier 1 and Tier 2 focuses - such as tier 1 Fire and tier 2 Positive (Radiance), or Fire and Earth (Magma), or even Fire and Fire (Aspect of Fire). For both design and technical reasons, we're removing the tier 2 Bonus Effects per se. There's no special bonus for what you put into the tier 1 and tier 2 slots (not public, not secret).

However, we're adding the "Active" augment slot so you can still put a clicky in your Green Steel. It will be another option and axis - the choice is independent of all tiered abilities. You pick one clicky no matter what other choices you make - it's not inherently tied to the Focuses you put into tier. These clickies will generally be for new abilities; they won't just be Heroic Green Steel effects (scaled up or otherwise), though we're still considering if some of the Heroic active abilities are so desirable that we should replicate them in Legendary.

Active slots will be identical between weapons and equipment. Whatever Active Augment you make, it can be slotted into either weapon or equipment.

We realize some items are likely to end up with nothing but a clicky on them. That's OK. We'll try to be careful with the cost of clickies with this in mind.

Tier 3 Augments
This may make more sense for those familiar with Heroic Green Steel.


Tier 3 Augments are always created with two Focuses, a Primary and Secondary (in addition to an Essence and Gem, like Heroic Green Steel). So you might make a tier 3 Fire earth Dominion Material Augment, for instance (aka: Magma).
There are no single-focus tier 3 Augments. You can make a Fire Fire tier 3 augment, however.
Unlike Heroic Green Steel, you can pick any Focus to be the Primary. This Primary Focus determines which tier 3 effect the augment provides - it doesn't provide both bonuses, only the one from the Primary Focus. (In heroic, there was always a "dominant" Focus. This was fairly restrictive, as it meant you couldn't actually get tier 3 Negative effects except by making a Triple Negative item, because negative was always the 'secondary' Focus - and some elements were similarly over-represented while others were difficult to get.) This increases the number of options by 6x - so the 36 tier 1 & 2 shards becomes 216 tier 3 Augments (for each of Weapons and Equipment).
To re-iterate, there's nothing in Legendary like a "single affinity shard". Everything is a Dual Shard. The heroic method of creating Dual Shards (which were most player's goal!) were a frequent source of confusion, error, and frustration. While having 216 Weapon and 216 Equipment tier 3 Shards is still complex, we hope that this method helps make the complexity both more obvious (so you know what to watch for!) and a bit more comprehensible, and most of all far less error prone. (The common, and costly, mistake of applying one tier 3 heroic shard before trying to add a second tier 3 heroic shard is impossible in Legendary.)


Tier 3 "Bonus" Effects etc.
This flavor & to an extent "mystery" is retained. This is what the Primary & Secondary focuses in tier 3 are about - the secondary focus only really matters for this. Based on your slotted Augments, you receive a bonus effect. The bonus effect is only shows up after putting the augments in, since it depends on combinations of all three tiers of augments.

Tier 3 Bonus Effects may or may not be similar to Heroic versions (scaled up to higher numbers if so). Some of this may depend on time, but we'd like to be more creative here - rather than in the normal Tiered effects, which are mostly well suited for simply coming up into Legendary with higher value numbers.

Legendary Taint of Shavarath
It's real, and painful if you equip multiple pieces of Legendary Green Steel Equipment. Exact methods for dealing with it will be somewhat analogous to heroic. Details to come later.

Other Heroic Ingredients
Many ingredients from Heroic are not making the transition to Legendary. This includes most of the blank-creation ingredients such as Chipmunk Funk, Tapers, Shavarath Stones, and Signet Stones. They didn't really fit the model for Legendary as they did for heroic Vale, and in many ways were a source of confusion and unnecessary complexity.




Thanks for reading!

We're happy to hear your feedback on anything here. Or really about a whole ton of things relating to Legendary Green Steel. It's a big complex system. We expect questions, comments, feedback, concerns, etc.

There will be some more details upcoming, including what you can expect to see on Lamannia soon (which is not everything!)

[Vargouille]

What will be in upcoming Lamannia:

The system is not fully ready for preview, with all details, and there's a lot of elements we're happier to get some feedback with now rather than later. However, we wanted to get a large chunk available for players to examine and work with, sort of as a large scale prototype and preview of what we're actually going for.

What's Ready?

The Legendary Green Steel Augment system is mostly ready. This includes a new UI!
Weapons and Tiered augments, for all of tiers 1,2,3, are ready for preview.
You can also create Equipment blanks.


What's Not Ready?

Active Augments are not available.
Tier 3 bonus effects remain mysterious and unavailable.
Equipment augments for all tiers are generally unavailable. (Some might do some things, but they are all a work in progress and not representative of ... things that are working right.)
The base items (blanks) do not yet have upgraded tooltips that show the fact that these items have Augment slots at all, or what Augments are slotted in them. The only way to look at the Legendary Green Steel Augments right now is to actually open the new Legendary Green Steel Augment panel.
Weapons have often incorrect critical profiles and base damage for this build.



Can I see this UI?
There's a new button in the Inventory panel:
http://s7.postimg.org/3wi8ipjtn/Legendary_Green_Steel_Augment_Icon.png


You can either (1) just click on the new icon or (2) drag a blank item (with Augment slots) onto the new icon. This opens this panel:

http://s18.postimg.org/8qqdnvjop/Legendary_Green_Steel_Augment_Panel.png

At this point you can drag Augment items from your inventory into these slots to slot them. This will destroy any Augment already there.

[Flavilandile]

Hmm, Exquisite ?

You kept some of the old code for Epic Greensteel.

[Vargouille]

Hmm, Exquisite ?

You kept some of the old code for Epic Greensteel.

That name may still change. :)

[bls904c2]

What will be in upcoming Lamannia:

The system is not fully ready for preview, with all details, and there's a lot of elements we're happier to get some feedback with now rather than later. However, we wanted to get a large chunk available for players to examine and work with, sort of as a large scale prototype and preview of what we're actually going for.

What's Ready?

The Legendary Green Steel Augment system is mostly ready. This includes a new UI!
Weapons and Tiered augments, for all of tiers 1,2,3, are ready for preview.
You can also create Equipment blanks.


What's Not Ready?

Active Augments are not available.
Tier 3 bonus effects remain mysterious and unavailable.
Equipment augments for all tiers 1 are generally unavailable. (Some might do some things, but they are all a work in progress and not representative of ... things that are working right.)
The base items (blanks) do not yet have upgraded tooltips that show the fact that these items have Augment slots at all, or what Augments are slotted in them. The only way to look at the Legendary Green Steel Augments right now is to actually open the new Legendary Green Steel Augment panel.



Can I see this UI?
There's a new button in the Inventory panel:
http://s7.postimg.org/3wi8ipjtn/Legendary_Green_Steel_Augment_Icon.png


You can either (1) just click on the new icon or (2) drag a blank item (with Augment slots) onto the new icon. This opens this panel:

http://s18.postimg.org/8qqdnvjop/Legendary_Green_Steel_Augment_Panel.png

At this point you can drag Augment items from your inventory into these slots to slot them. This will destroy any Augment already there.

so no new jewelers tool kit to remove augment would have been very nice

[bls904c2]

so many choices wow

love it

[Seljuck]

Why ingredients are BTA? Economy already do not exist in this game and every update You kill it even more. it's like hitting someone lying on the ground.

[TPICKRELL]

.
.
.
Handwraps are not included in Legendary Green Steel in Update 29. We wanted to get the revamp of handwrap technology in for Update 29, but that's a fairly massive task and just couldn't be done. We understand this is quite frustrating for some players..
.
.


This still stinks to high heaven for those of us who play unarmed.

We have been the weakest melee for quite a long time now, almost all monk "advantages" are now superceded by other classes, and even though weak, we were nerfed again relative to every other melee style in the last update with the loss of melee power.

And now this puts us even further behind... Especially in legendary content where mortal fear won't work now. I understand that there are technical difficulties. Honestly, I expected this until it was announced that handwraps would be included.

It appears that the handwrap re-write is 6-9 months away. That means that you are leaving the monk class in a very weak state and without access to reasonable end game weapons for another 9 months. And before any suggests it... no, farming out another set of tier 3 thunderforged wraps to replace the completely nerfed mortal fear wraps is not an acceptable alternative.

Enough complaining.

Assuming the details flesh out well, the system looks very interesting. Its impossible to say without seeing the actual effects, but the flexibility looks very good assuming that the augments are reasonable for legendary content.

I really like the approach to clickies, allowing any clicky augment on any item is a win.

[Qezuzu]

there are between ~120 and ~600 augments (depending on what you consider "different" augments - the lower number is ).







These Green Steel Augments will fit into existing Augment bags.

We expect to offer an ‘extractor’ type option in the Store specifically for these Green Steel Augments in the event that you want to replace a slot but don’t want to lose the augment you made.


Given the large number of augements, do you have plans to increase the size of augment bags?

Will this 'extractor' be available from in-game sources?





You collect Codex Runes (name subject to change) by completing Legendary Shroud.


These are BTA.


You collect Legendary tiered ingredients that are highly analogous to the tiered ingredients in Heroic Green Steel.

These ingredients are BTA.


Blanks are the initial Weapons and Equipment with empty Augment slots.

Blanks are ML:26, and BTC. Legendary Green Steel items don't change minimum level nor binding status.



Why. Why would you do this.

Literally every worthwhile piece of named loot since, like, u22 has been bound. Is it simply your design goal for player trading to be roughly as useful as the Swim skill?

[Wipey]

Maybe you guys didn't notice but trade forums for every server have been kinda dead for a long time.
Why the heck are you making everything bta ?

[Trillea]

Why. Why would you do this.

Literally every worthwhile piece of named loot since, like, u22 has been bound. Is it simply your design goal for player trading to be roughly as useful as the Swim skill?

Because they do not want people with tons and tons of raid timers to be able to sell the ingredients on the ASAH and flood the game with the new weapons/accessories in the first month.

[Qhualor]

Where are those old players that figured out heroic greensteel? They have more work to do :)

[Qezuzu]

Because they do not want people with tons and tons of raid timers to be able to sell the ingredients on the ASAH and flood the game with the new weapons/accessories in the first month.

The stockpiles of RTBs won't work in new legendary raids, read the thread in this sub-forum.

[xTethx]

Where are those old players that figured out heroic greensteel? They have more work to do :)

Checking in for duty!

[RistoffDervish]

so no new jewelers tool kit to remove augment would have been very nice

He said there would be a way to get them out and preserve them from the DDO Store, just not with a standard jeweler's tool kit.

[Grailhawk]

Basic Information


You collect Legendary tiered ingredients that are highly analogous to the tiered ingredients in Heroic Green Steel.


These ingredients are BTA.



That's a shame shroud ingredients were the games economy for years you had a chance to recreate that economy and took a pass on it.

Rest of this sounds really good.

[Silverleafeon]

Pretty sure the answer is "no", but I will ask anyway:

"Does adding augments (or any other available upgrade known) change the min level 26 of legendary greensteel?"

[Silverleafeon]

Checking in for duty!

Salute!

[Thar]

Given the large number of augements, do you have plans to increase the size of augment bags?

Will this 'extractor' be available from in-game sources?


[/LIST]
[/LIST]

Why. Why would you do this.

Literally every worthwhile piece of named loot since, like, u22 has been bound. Is it simply your design goal for player trading to be roughly as useful as the Swim skill?

Agreed, some use for the AH would be appreciated. Having EVERYTHING bound to acct/character is annoying. AT least have something BTC/BTA on equip.

i understand the reluctance to do ingrediants due to illegal issues with prior systems. but then PLEASE have a swap mechanic ie 2 red for 1 blue or something like that to lessen the horrors of a random system.

[legendkilleroll]

Im fine with the bound status, you want your gear, you run the quest and raids

Too much skipping going on already, whether its levelling by buying stones or before when you could buy from AH without even owning the content

[Vargouille]

Pretty sure the answer is "no", but I will ask anyway:

"Does adding augments (or any other available upgrade known) change the min level 26 of legendary greensteel?"

No.

Our current desire, partially to reduce confusion, is that these items do not at any time change binding or minimum level (though these were avenues we considered).


Given the large number of augements, do you have plans to increase the size of augment bags?

I don't think there's any current plans for changes to Augment Bags or for new augment bags, but it's something we could look into if there's demand. We don't necessarily expect players to build up large amounts of Legendary Green Steel Augments in their inventories -- most of them will probably be slotted into weapons or equipment!


Will this 'extractor' be available from in-game sources?

We currently plan for any extractor to be in the store only. You can slot a new LGSA over an existing LGSA in that slot, destroying the existing augment, without having to rebuild the entire weapon (as you must do in Heroic Green Steel).

[PsychoBlonde]

Why ingredients are BTA? Economy already do not exist in this game and every update You kill it even more. it's like hitting someone lying on the ground.

Actually the new random lootgen system is probably going to bring that back. A lot.

Yeah, I'm not thrilled about the bound ingredients but it's okay--if you want the gear, you should run the content.

[Hipparan]

Minimum Level: All LGS items, weapons and equipment, are currently planned to be minimum level 26.
Weapons have a base 5[W] damage.
There is no 20th reward list for Legendary raids.
You collect Codex Runes (name subject to change) by completing Legendary Shroud.
[LIST]
These are used to craft Blank weapons and equipment, and to deal with the Legendary Taint of Shavarath on Equipment.
You get more Codex Runes on Hard and even more on Elite.
These are BTA.
These might be used as turn-ins for other kinds of rewards (such as you might have found on a 20th reward list).


You collect Legendary tiered ingredients that are highly analogous to the tiered ingredients in Heroic Green Steel.

By "tiered", we mean things like Legendary Small Devil Scales, Legendary Medium Gnawed Bones, and Legendary Large Length of Infernal Chains.
There are six different ingredients per tier (just like Heroic).
These ingredients are BTA.


Blanks are the initial Weapons and Equipment with empty Augment slots.

These are created from Codex Runes at the Altar of Fecundity in Meridia. This is the exact same eldritch crafting device used for Heroic Green Steel. This one device has some of the recipes used for both Heroic and Legendary Green Steel.
Blanks are ML:26, and BTC. Legendary Green Steel items don't change minimum level nor binding status.




By BTA and BTC, I am guessing you mean on acquire? I really wish the blanks would be BTC on equip like the heroic blanks.

[CThruTheEgo]

Overall, I like it.

I like the fact that it is similar to heroic green steel crafting. It seems as though you all took all the problems with that system and found a way to avoid them. Well done in that regard. The biggest problem I would expect to see now is players who are used to the old system having trouble adapting, but it seems simple enough that it should only take a short time for them to learn.

I like the slotting aspect. This allows us to not have to create an entirely new item if we just want to change one effect.

I like that we will see an upgraded version of the old effects.

I do not like that everything is bound. What is the logic behind making every aspect of this crafting system bound? Some of it should be bound so that you still have to run the raid to make an item, but not all of it. Having an in-game economy is a good thing. The base ingredients should be unbound just like with heroic green steel. Legendary raid timers will ensure that a handful of players do not flood the market with ingredients a week after U29 goes live.

[Qezuzu]

Yeah, I'm not thrilled about the bound ingredients but it's okay--if you want the gear, you should run the content.

That is the case with Heroic Greensteel.

You needed shards, which were BtC and uncommon enough to warrant multiple runs, which would get you most of the unbound ingredients. After you got the shards, you could trade for the rest.

They could easily do a similar system with legendary, but instead everything is bound for no real reason.

[Dramentia]

Oh joy more running the same thing over and over a billion times to get one useful thing. Just once I would like to see a crafting thing that doesn't require me to run the same thing a billion times. Or acquire a billion different ingredients. And then a billion times more so you can get the taint off. And with the named loot you got out there now Heroic GS is not really worth the time. At least increase the drop rate for heroic GS ingredients in flagging quests and rares in the vale.

[Basura_Grande]

None of this is exciting at all.

What can these weapons do besides bore people to death with their convoluted descriptions?

[IronClan]

That name may still change. :)

Nah that's a awesome superlative keep it.... "Exquisite" nice flavor for an evilly superior weapon.:cool:

Overall thumbs up, good concept, I really am hoping some of the recipes allow boosting base damage and making a "clean" weapon at the expense of "holy burst" and "flaming" etc. (similar DPS just one allows for the old D&D +5 "clean" weapon aesthetic) the modular augment slot approch is a good one, and reminds me a teeny tiny bit of my proposal for Sentient weapons (in the slot nature of the affixes) opps how did this get here:

http://i.imgur.com/uoKtlqq.jpg

[Silverleafeon]

First read thru: Thumbs Up!
I like the versatility being given here.
BTA for ingredients will allow me to farm with my main and pass to my alt(s).
Thank you for having a clicky separate crafting, its something that would have been nice on the TF breath aoe spell clickies.

[Silverleafeon]

That name may still change. :)

A rose by any other name....
;)

[Wulverine]

"Does adding augments (or any other available upgrade known) change the min level 26 of legendary greensteel?"


No.

Alright, so how do you intend to position this towards Thunderforged weapons?
This makes me fear Legendary Greensteel Weapons will be less powerfull but more versatile.

[Ghlitch]

http://s18.postimg.org/8qqdnvjop/Legendary_Green_Steel_Augment_Panel.png

At this point you can drag Augment items from your inventory into these slots to slot them. This will destroy any Augment already there.

You know what would be a lot more player-friendly than the overwrite or store-item-only removal of augments? The ability to hotswap augments in at will. Take out a fire augment and swap in an ice one when facing a bunch of fire elementals, then swap them back after you're done to take on some ice elementals in the next part.

Then you'd only need one greataxe in your inventory and a bunch of augments to swap around as conditions change. And then when you TR into a rogue, you can make a dagger blank and swap those same augments back in and out as you go along.

[Urjak]

Why ingredients are BTA? Economy already do not exist in this game and every update You kill it even more. it's like hitting someone lying on the ground.

^ This: Of course some ingredient should be bound - so that you have to actually run the raid as well. But why not make the majority unbound? It worked incredibly well with heroic greensteel ... and really: We could use a revival of ingame trading (which basically doesn't exist anymore).

Really, making everything bound just because we had those exploits in the past ... don't let the fear control your actions! Just make sure duping won't make a come-back (and if it does, fix it asap) and give us unbound stuff that we can trade again!

[IronClan]

The ability to change things out is going to be big for this system, I think it's inspired. The most immediate implication of a slot based system is that you guys can add new augment recipees if desired and people can have the option to unslot instead of destroying or starting from scratch.

If LGS has a accidental MF counterpart and it gets nerfs we can unslot instead of junking the entire weapon.

So many good reasons to have this flexibility. More I read the more I like.

[Powerhungry]

wow- over 2.2M shards... how much did you spend on DDO?

[xaul17]

I do not like that everything is bound. What is the logic behind making every aspect of this crafting system bound? Some of it should be bound so that you still have to run the raid to make an item, but not all of it. Having an in-game economy is a good thing. The base ingredients should be unbound just like with heroic green steel. Legendary raid timers will ensure that a handful of players do not flood the market with ingredients a week after U29 goes live.

+1

I too dislike the idea of having totally bound ingredients. This also greatly blocks out the players who are not big on running raids (speaking for a number of my guildies here). In heroic greensteel, there was only one BTC ingredient that you had to run the raid for, and those were the Shards of Power. Even those could be found in Devil Assault as well, so were never really forced to run the raid at all (though, it was of course far more likely to get the drops from the raid than from DA).

I do understand that this is High End/Endgame loot, but remember for it's time, Heroic Greensteel was too. And on the note of the in-game economy, I also think it would help breathe life into it again, which in my opinion is very much needed. My plea is to at least make SOME of the ingredients drop unbound, or if not that, add a legendary quest like Devil Assault which could be run to pick up the bound ingredients without having to run the raids.

And no, I'm not against raiding, I'm just offering a suggestion to help open it up to a wider playerbase.

[xaul17]

wow- over 2.2M shards... how much did you spend on DDO?

Lammania = Unlimited resources. I don't think even the devs are allowed this resource on the live servers. Those who play DDO likely have to buy their own shards too :)

[Hobgoblin]

Lammania = Unlimited resources. I don't think even the devs are allowed this resource on the live servers. Those who play DDO likely have to buy their own shards too :)

they said they cant buy shards even on a non dev account

[IronClan]

You know what would be a lot more player-friendly than the overwrite or store-item-only removal of augments? The ability to hotswap augments in at will. Take out a fire augment and swap in an ice one when facing a bunch of fire elementals, then swap them back after you're done to take on some ice elementals in the next part.

Then you'd only need one greataxe in your inventory and a bunch of augments to swap around as conditions change. And then when you TR into a rogue, you can make a dagger blank and swap those same augments back in and out as you go along.

The issue with that is it makes choices too easy and thus less compelling. it also allows someone who would have done 60 runs to make 3 weapons to have a "golf bag" of choices to just make a couple augments instead and run the content less...

At this point I have to believe that the Dev's understand how much of a mistake all this super high drop rate BTA gear has been... The grind in DDO used to be 10 times more than it is now during the old 20 cap... and yet the game grew steadily during that time.

They must provide longer term gameplay and more grind... pandering to instant gratification has done nothing but shrink DDO's player base faster.

[phalaeo]

I'd like to see them not bind at all. BTA is better than BTC, but economy encourages trading. More interaction, more cooperation.

I don't know what the motive is behind making everything BTA/BTC lately-- maybe there's reasoning I'm not thinking about, but this is what I'd ideally like to see. Unbound, no auction. Nobody uses the trade channel on Argo, and the Argo Marketplace on the forums has been dead for over a year and a half. It would be awesome to see the community actively interacting and trading than it is to have it bind on acquire or thrown on the ASAH.

[Andoris]

Why ingredients are BTA? Economy already do not exist in this game and every update You kill it even more. it's like hitting someone lying on the ground.


+1

Epic Greensteel is a excellent way to bring back a in-game economy. Having a way to trade/buy/sell stuff (of value) keeps the grinders interested after they get what they need/want -- as they can always sell or trade.

Codex Ruins and Legendary Tiered mats being unbound would breathe a breath of life into the economy and do great things for the health (and longevity) of the game.

[IronClan]

I'd be okay with making the blanks sellable and some of the ings.... as long as the shards of power are still BTC (don't make the mistake of making these BTA... Shroud is still run to this day mostly because of BTC shards of power

[Ghlitch]

The issue with that is it makes choices too easy and thus less compelling. it also allows someone who would have done 60 runs to make 3 weapons to have a "golf bag" of choices to just make a couple augments instead and run the content less...

At this point I have to believe that the Dev's understand how much of a mistake all this super high drop rate BTA gear has been... The grind in DDO used to be 10 times more than it is now during the old 20 cap... and yet the game grew steadily during that time.

They must provide longer term gameplay and more grind... pandering to instant gratification has done nothing but shrink DDO's player base faster.

As-is it's nearly a copy of the old greensteel system. What did everyone make with the old system? Min II, Lit II, and Triple Positive weapons. Every once in a while you'd see someone with something different, but the vast majority only made those three. Given a hot-swappable system you'd find people running a variety of different weapons that mutate during gameplay. Otherwise it'll be the same old boring use min II for bosses, lit II for trash, and triple pos for undead that it is now. They'll just be higher level.

And since you brought it up, I have yet to find anyone that finds grinding in a game fun. The game population has shrunk for a variety of reasons. Lack of a grind isn't one of them.

[Wulverine]

And since you brought it up, I have yet to find anyone that finds grinding in a game fun. The game population has shrunk for a variety of reasons. Lack of a grind isn't one of them.

You couldn't be more wrong about this. Seriously.

Lack of endgame/something to grind for has caused many players to leave (mostly endgame players)

[Ghlitch]

You couldn't be more wrong about this. Seriously.

Lack of endgame/something to grind for has caused many players to leave (mostly endgame players)

Then I guess we hang out with a different crowd of people. The fun for the people I know in DDO was never at the end game. It's always been about the journey.

[Silverleafeon]

Nah that's a awesome superlative keep it.... "Exquisite" nice flavor for an evilly superior weapon.:cool:

Overall thumbs up, good concept, I really am hoping some of the recipes allow boosting base damage and making a "clean" weapon at the expense of "holy burst" and "flaming" etc. (similar DPS just one allows for the old D&D +5 "clean" weapon aesthetic) the modular augment slot approch is a good one, and reminds me a teeny tiny bit of my proposal for Sentient weapons (in the slot nature of the affixes) opps how did this get here:

http://i.imgur.com/uoKtlqq.jpg

Some of the features here caught my eye as well for possibly implementation in the Min Level 30? Sentient Weapons?

[Thrudh]

I'd like to see ingrediants unbound as well, like the old Shroud. Keep blanks bound to character.

[Silverleafeon]

You couldn't be more wrong about this. Seriously.

Lack of endgame/something to grind for has caused many players to leave (mostly endgame players)

+1

I always say: "If you are not having fun, ask yourself why and do something about it."

Gaming is luxury entertainment.

and yes, we need something to do at level cap...

[Thrudh]

That is the case with Heroic Greensteel.

You needed shards, which were BtC and uncommon enough to warrant multiple runs, which would get you most of the unbound ingredients. After you got the shards, you could trade for the rest.

They could easily do a similar system with legendary, but instead everything is bound for no real reason.

I agree... I liked the old system...

Hopefully this will bring back alts... I used to cycle through 7 guys when running Shroud over a weekend.

[IronClan]

You couldn't be more wrong about this. Seriously.

Lack of endgame/something to grind for has caused many players to leave (mostly endgame players)

Hey Wulf high five, I mean it's just basic cause and effect, people say they want to get their loot right away so they can "enjoy playing" but they just log out with no carrots to chase.

I've heard lots of friends and guildies say they're not playing much because they've got nothing to do. The pretty much describes 99% of the regulars I've known over the years.

Yet I've never known anyone that stopped playing because they still had a bunch of stuff they hadn't obtained and didn't feel like playing the game anymore to get it... Even if they were "a thing" it serves no purpose to pander to them at the expense of people who DO enjoy playing the game and having goals that are worth obtaining over longer than a week per update.

[IronClan]

And since you brought it up, I have yet to find anyone that finds grinding in a game fun. The game population has shrunk for a variety of reasons. Lack of a grind isn't one of them.

Grind was a poor choice of words on my part, I mean replay incentive. I don't grind much of anything, I enjoy DDO, I still don't have a few things and I'M GLAD I DON'T and they didn't drop like the named loot in the last two packs (like rain) because it's a reason to log in.

Took me 200+ runs to get eSoS I never grinded for it, I still enjoy that raid to this day because i ran it when I felt like it, and when I got it I quite literally pumped my fist and spammed channel :)

DDO need more fist pump moments

It needs less "meh got my item after 5 runs... see you all in 4 months when the next update comes out" moments.

[UurlockYgmeov]

so far I like. Allot.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I don't think there's any current plans for changes to Augment Bags or for new augment bags, but it's something we could look into if there's demand. We don't necessarily expect players to build up large amounts of Legendary Green Steel Augments in their inventories -- most of them will probably be slotted into weapons or equipment!

that was the plan as well for regular augment gems - and now we all have the biggest bags. :)

why can't the lgs augment gems go into green bags? or even blue bags? ;p

[jalont]

I don't understand why everything is bound. Unbound ingredients will bring people into the raids that normally wouldn't run them, since they don't care about useless weapons and equipment. The ability to sell ingredients on asah would do wonders for the endgame population. I understand being worried about duping after the trainwreck that was TF weapons, but fix the duping problem rather than killing endgame before it's even released.

[Eldried]

Plz make the Greensteel ingridients not bound! The game needs things that can be sold and traded!

Those being bound is a HUGE minus for the new system!

[WiseFreelancer]

So far I generally like what I see. Three comments though:

1) Going to join the BtA/BtC chorus and ask can't we have *some* unbound stuff? Keep the sigils bound, so people have to run for at least the blanks, but let us trade the ingredients.

2) This system favors builds that can hold two weapons over those that can't a great deal - Thunderforged had the nice bonuses for two handers but I haven't seen that yet. This is especially nasty for casters. Oh, and a plea that bows/xbows are at least considered if two-handed weapons are, as they still lock out that second hand

3) Elemental damage variations match old greensteel, but the game has moved a bit since then. Divines spellcasters are really shafted on the elemental choices - its either Fire (to which most of the endgame will be immune) or Positive (which deals no damage...). This system could really use a Radiance pathway to help light-based builds out. Especially when some of the other U29 additions really do support radiance builds.


On a bug note: I don't think Parrying is working on the new armors - the descriptions read the wrong way round (7 AC / 14 saves) and the save bonuses aren't being applied at all.

[Kadrios]

So far I like what I see.

one request though (and I understand that it is probably too late, and comes with a whole slew of potential technical issues). As some who has played several lives with artificer splashes (and has several more planned) I'd love to see a Green Steel Runearm, or if not a full green steel runearm, then a vale/shavarath appropriate named arm with a green steel augment slot.

[Silverleafeon]

So far I like what I see.

one request though (and I understand that it is probably too late, and comes with a whole slew of potential technical issues). As some who has played several lives with artificer splashes (and has several more planned) I'd love to see a Green Steel Runearm, or if not a full green steel runearm, then a vale/shavarath appropriate named arm with a green steel augment slot.

Interesting.

[Erofen]

Please add rings. I know they did not exist in heroic, but they had tod rings planned to fill that gap. Since Epic ToD has been noted as not being in any plans for the future... why no rings? Main reason why I am not using any heroic greensteel. I might bother farming for it if I could make a ring. Rings are nice to swap for clickies too.

[Blastyswa]

My impression without having been able to test it yet is that GS items not having normal augment slots as well will be a pain. I normally slot Meridian Fragment on my mainhand when playing a caster (Offhand being a Skyvault, a large shield, or a runearm), so unless somewhere in this system is another psionic bonus, there's that gone. Not to mention for melee/ranged characters meteoric/DR bypass (assuming everything in EGSteel isn't Metalline/Aligned) can't be added either. I'd love to see something like items either starting with, or having to ability to be added with 1-2 Orange/Red Slots, in the name of not invalidating all the old augments (In some situations these augments can of course be put on an offhand. However, I expect if the system is good enough melees will be wielding a second EGS item in the offhand. This is also not a valid option for ranged players, and is really only very valid for caster players who are not artificers and are wielding a specialized shield/orb for an Orange Slot).

[stricq]

One thing right off, the Legendary Green Steel Longbow does not fire arrows. So, yeah, that's pretty useless.

When is soft-targeting going to be fixed?

[Ghwyn]

You couldn't be more wrong about this. Seriously.

Lack of endgame/something to grind for has caused many players to leave (mostly endgame players)

Agreed. Running fun quests to find something rare is fun. Running the same quest for just xp is not as much fun. People leave when they run out of things to do.

[lyrecono]

i see many people complain about the trade system,

when the cap was 20, the endgame population around me (so no joe the harbor flowersniffer) was using epic scrolls, large devil scales and red devil scales as pocket change and turbine codes for bigger purchases.
One of the reasons many top tier guilds forbid trading raid gear was because people were selling sos/Ring of spell storing shards for 50 to 200 bucks in turbine codes.

We were "given" the shard auction house because turbine wanted a piece of the action
for what, 2 years of a!@#$%S pulling their EE loot and putting it straight up the SAH instead of putting it up for roll, for the people who put up the effort in favor of the dupers. Unless highroad gear was worth 15k shards?
on my server there is a lot of cheap trash on, going for max 25 shards, then some named items up to 200, then really weird stuff for 19000 shards??????
in my eyes, the shard auction house was tainted by involving real money (moneygrab) and dupers with tons of materials and shards.

I don't presume to know why it's no longer used as much as it used to, but i'm glad, no more angry people loosing 300 bucks on an item that became useless 3 updates later, nor running the risk of laundering money for dupers.

the only people benefiting from the system now are those who invested in getting toons ready for endgame, the more the better

[MrWindupBird]

System seems pretty promising, from the sketch given here. The three best things about the old Shroud were:
A, flexible and customizable crafting;
B, constant incremental progress towards crafting;
C, a raid which was actually enjoyable.
So far this hits the first two: hopefully the raid will be good as well. Can't comment on the nitty-gritty of the specific effects yet, but I do like the modular augment approach: I think that's a good way of allowing multi-step crafting and customization, and is much more user friendly than the old GS system. However, I really really would like to second this sentiment:



You know what would be a lot more player-friendly than the overwrite or store-item-only removal of augments? The ability to hotswap augments in at will. Take out a fire augment and swap in an ice one when facing a bunch of fire elementals, then swap them back after you're done to take on some ice elementals in the next part.

Then you'd only need one greataxe in your inventory and a bunch of augments to swap around as conditions change. And then when you TR into a rogue, you can make a dagger blank and swap those same augments back in and out as you go along.


As-is it's nearly a copy of the old greensteel system. What did everyone make with the old system? Min II, Lit II, and Triple Positive weapons. Every once in a while you'd see someone with something different, but the vast majority only made those three. Given a hot-swappable system you'd find people running a variety of different weapons that mutate during gameplay. Otherwise it'll be the same old boring use min II for bosses, lit II for trash, and triple pos for undead that it is now. They'll just be higher level.

And since you brought it up, I have yet to find anyone that finds grinding in a game fun. The game population has shrunk for a variety of reasons. Lack of a grind isn't one of them.

This is a great idea, and here's why.
When original GS came out, people had multiple toons, and those toons were basically static: your fighter with TWF was going to use khopeshes indefinitely, your barbarian an axe or falchion. The lock-in cost to actually crafting something wasn't that high: sure, maybe you wished that you had made a Lit2 axe rather than a Min2 axe sometimes, but having either was always useful and whichever you had would be ideal for at least some situations.
Contrast that to now: many people (not everyone I realize: this is not universal but it is very true of myself and the people I play with) have abandoned all but a few of their toons by the wayside due to the TR-game. We have 2 or 3 toons that we actually play and raid with, not 8 or 12. And these toons shapeshift constantly: my 'melee' toon's last lives in order have been rapier bard, THF paladin, wolf, unarmed monk, TWF assassin with daggers, rogue mechanic, paladin with shield + khopesh, ranger with scimitars. You see the problem, I hope. It's one thing to craft a Min2 axe and pine for the Lit2 axe sometimes, it's another to craft the axe and then want to play something slightly different and have it be completely useless to you. I enjoy it whenever there's an update to the game: I want to try what's new, and this includes when enhancement trees are revamped. Crafting lock-in actively discourages me from trying to experience all the new and fun things. The new enhancements have been fantastic in making one-handed weapons other than a khopesh actually useful, but that sort of build diversity is actually a problem with crafting.

So why not just go for it and embrace the modular aspect? Let the augments be slotted in and out: maybe not at will, but at a minimal cost. Perhaps some semi-common drops from the flagging quests can be used to unslot augments, and the slotting can only be done out of quest, in a tavern. Something like that. I challenge you to show me how this would do anything other than increase my enjoyment of the game. It certainly won't prevent me from running the new quests for multiple items: I'll be wanting to wear multiple items per toon regardless, and the modularity will actually make me more likely to run for ingredients if it means that I can change my item from A/B/C to A/B/F without having to lose that first option permanently. Besides, if the claims are true that the crafting possibilities are both broad and useful, I'll be wanting lots of choices at every tier, for different situations. This proposed change wouldn't shorten my time to acquire what I want: it would just give me freedom to do what I like with my toon in the future, and better allow for adaptation to a constantly changing game.

More thoughts later. Would appreciate if other posters would chime in if they think this is a good/bad idea. If you disagree, say why!

[SirValentine]

Legendary Shroud and Legendary Green Steel (LGS) are coming! This post is about the broad, general structure of Legendary Green Steel crafting.

As many players know, Green Steel is a wide-reaching, complex crafting system. Some of these concepts here are fairly high level and abstract. This is not a post where every possible Green Steel effect is going to be listed.


I give it an "A" on broad, general structure.

I went on Lamma and looked through the list of recipes.

The equipment augments didn't actually show what they were supposed to do.

The weapon augments...it gets a "D" on the list of possible effects. Simultaneously boring and overpowered.

[Wizza]

Everything BTA, even basic ingredients.

Please. Still ridicolous.

[QuantumFX]

We currently plan for any extractor to be in the store only. You can slot a new LGSA over an existing LGSA in that slot, destroying the existing augment, without having to rebuild the entire weapon (as you must do in Heroic Green Steel).

I would like to nominate the following name for the “extractor”:

YELLOW DERPENT

You’re welcome.

[PpalP]

I was very eager to look at LGS, I even downloaded Lam just for that! I know is a work in progress but...

Did two Khopesh with all the "good/Holy" damage on the three slots; yes, they do more dps than T2 TF but the new LGS seems like ordinary GS with mode d6, so instead of doing 2d6 holy damage you now do 6d6, and that's all; I mean, I was waiting for a "wow!" but not, no special effects or more customization. I think caster will find LGS more useful than melees, or I miss something (I've only test for one hour or so)

[noinfo]

Why ingredients are BTA? Economy already do not exist in this game and every update You kill it even more. it's like hitting someone lying on the ground.

I agree, enough with the BTA stuff. Longevity is helped by being able to seel the stuff. BTA does absolutely nothing for this. Have things like shards BTC even to limit it to characters running the content but let us sell our stuff.

[Ovrad]

Handwraps are not included in Legendary Green Steel in Update 29. We wanted to get the revamp of handwrap technology in for Update 29, but that's a fairly massive task and just couldn't be done. We understand this is quite frustrating for some players.

Well, will monks get anything at all this update? Apart from nerfs as usual?

Cause at this rate I might as well not play for the next 6 months, until my class is (maybe) no longer deprecated.

[Vargouille]

What's Ready?

The Legendary Green Steel Augment system is mostly ready. This includes a new UI!
Weapons and Tiered augments, for all of tiers 1,2,3, are ready for preview.
You can also create Equipment blanks.


What's Not Ready?

Active Augments are not available.
Tier 3 bonus effects remain mysterious and unavailable.
Equipment augments for all tiers are generally unavailable. (Some might do some things, but they are all a work in progress and not representative of ... things that are working right.)
The base items (blanks) do not yet have upgraded tooltips that show the fact that these items have Augment slots at all, or what Augments are slotted in them. The only way to look at the Legendary Green Steel Augments right now is to actually open the new Legendary Green Steel Augment panel.


Just to re-iterate (after getting many questions from a variety of sources): Only tier 1,2,3 weapon effects are functioning on this Lamannia build, and are directly inspired by Heroic Green Steel (feel free to compare!). Equipment effects are not in yet. Active Augments are not in yet. "Bonus" effects are not in yet. This is a testing of the system, though the weapon effects on Lamannia are the ones we're currently intending to ship with.

[shinsirhc]

Me wants Epic Pudding weapon!!!!!

And put some regular slot there too.

[Urjak]

Just to re-iterate (after getting many questions from a variety of sources): Only tier 1,2,3 weapon effects are functioning on this Lamannia build, and are directly inspired by Heroic Green Steel (feel free to compare!). Equipment effects are not in yet. Active Augments are not in yet. "Bonus" effects are not in yet. This is a testing of the system, though the weapon effects on Lamannia are the ones we're currently intending to ship with.

GS throwing weapons (shuriken) don't work at all (can be equipped but when trying to attack, no shot is fired - neither visually nor "physically")

[Vargouille]

We're seeing some issues with some ranged & thrown weapons not working right in this build. :( We'll investigate.

[EllisDee37]

Regarding monk handwraps, is adding LGS handwraps to the system in a later update a) a possibility, or b) highly unlikely?

[KLJJ]

This is so much more complex than needed. Why build an entirely new crafting system every single time there is a new raid or expansion pack, we already have what seems like 50 crafting systems.

[Vargouille]

Regarding monk handwraps, is adding LGS handwraps to the system in a later update a) a possibility, or b) highly unlikely?

It's a non-zero possibility, but it's hard to know or commit to anything until we actually do the work with the general handwraps tech.


This is so much more complex than needed. Why build an entirely new crafting system every single time there is a new raid or expansion pack, we already have what seems like 50 crafting systems.

This is exactly a simplified version of Heroic Green Steel. One of the advantages is that we aren't designing it from scratch (and many players aren't learning it from scratch), and it's often been considered one of the more loved crafting systems in the history DDO. That's a big part of why we're doing Legendary Green Steel at all.

[1Soulless1]

Why ingredients are BTA? Economy already do not exist in this game and every update You kill it even more. it's like hitting someone lying on the ground.


Given the large number of augements, do you have plans to increase the size of augment bags?

Will this 'extractor' be available from in-game sources?


[/LIST]
[/LIST]

Why. Why would you do this.

Literally every worthwhile piece of named loot since, like, u22 has been bound. Is it simply your design goal for player trading to be roughly as useful as the Swim skill?


Maybe you guys didn't notice but trade forums for every server have been kinda dead for a long time.
Why the heck are you making everything bta ?


That's a shame shroud ingredients were the games economy for years you had a chance to recreate that economy and took a pass on it.

Rest of this sounds really good.


Agreed, some use for the AH would be appreciated. Having EVERYTHING bound to acct/character is annoying. AT least have something BTC/BTA on equip.

i understand the reluctance to do ingrediants due to illegal issues with prior systems. but then PLEASE have a swap mechanic ie 2 red for 1 blue or something like that to lessen the horrors of a random system.


By BTA and BTC, I am guessing you mean on acquire? I really wish the blanks would be BTC on equip like the heroic blanks.


+1

I too dislike the idea of having totally bound ingredients. This also greatly blocks out the players who are not big on running raids (speaking for a number of my guildies here). In heroic greensteel, there was only one BTC ingredient that you had to run the raid for, and those were the Shards of Power. Even those could be found in Devil Assault as well, so were never really forced to run the raid at all (though, it was of course far more likely to get the drops from the raid than from DA).

I do understand that this is High End/Endgame loot, but remember for it's time, Heroic Greensteel was too. And on the note of the in-game economy, I also think it would help breathe life into it again, which in my opinion is very much needed. My plea is to at least make SOME of the ingredients drop unbound, or if not that, add a legendary quest like Devil Assault which could be run to pick up the bound ingredients without having to run the raids.

And no, I'm not against raiding, I'm just offering a suggestion to help open it up to a wider playerbase.


I'd like to see them not bind at all. BTA is better than BTC, but economy encourages trading. More interaction, more cooperation.

I don't know what the motive is behind making everything BTA/BTC lately-- maybe there's reasoning I'm not thinking about, but this is what I'd ideally like to see. Unbound, no auction. Nobody uses the trade channel on Argo, and the Argo Marketplace on the forums has been dead for over a year and a half. It would be awesome to see the community actively interacting and trading than it is to have it bind on acquire or thrown on the ASAH.


+1

Epic Greensteel is a excellent way to bring back a in-game economy. Having a way to trade/buy/sell stuff (of value) keeps the grinders interested after they get what they need/want -- as they can always sell or trade.

Codex Ruins and Legendary Tiered mats being unbound would breathe a breath of life into the economy and do great things for the health (and longevity) of the game.


I'd be okay with making the blanks sellable and some of the ings.... as long as the shards of power are still BTC (don't make the mistake of making these BTA... Shroud is still run to this day mostly because of BTC shards of power


I'd like to see ingrediants unbound as well, like the old Shroud. Keep blanks bound to character.


I agree... I liked the old system...

Hopefully this will bring back alts... I used to cycle through 7 guys when running Shroud over a weekend.


Plz make the Greensteel ingridients not bound! The game needs things that can be sold and traded!

Those being bound is a HUGE minus for the new system!


I don't understand why everything is bound. Unbound ingredients will bring people into the raids that normally wouldn't run them, since they don't care about useless weapons and equipment. The ability to sell ingredients on asah would do wonders for the endgame population. I understand being worried about duping after the trainwreck that was TF weapons, but fix the duping problem rather than killing endgame before it's even released.


Everything BTA, even basic ingredients.

Please. Still ridicolous.


I agree, enough with the BTA stuff. Longevity is helped by being able to seel the stuff. BTA does absolutely nothing for this. Have things like shards BTC even to limit it to characters running the content but let us sell our stuff.


Now I know Lama is a 'preview' server Varg...and I KNOW that you guys ( the devs) WILL NOT CHANGE THIS, but...can all these people really be wrong? Make it like old shroud where the ings where not bound in any way and you still need to run the raid for the shards/things/new widgets to make your blanks and upgrade your weapons/items.

You guys do know that the doupers will doup everything they need ( if douping still is possible) and the normal people will be left in the dust like usual. You guys really have no clue do you? This is a perfect opportunity to make the in-game economy alive again. There is nothing to trade for or buy because EVERYTHING is BtC, BtA.

The new random loot gen does look kind of interesting and it might renew some interest in the Server trade channels but...most will only be looking for that one in a million combo which will sell for a absurd amount of AS.

I know you guys will get on this soon™.

[QuantumFX]

And to add to the above poster:

You would be better off following the old shroud system of unbound ingredients/bound shards of power. Making everything BtAbCdEfG will not protect you from the duplication issues DDO faced in it's past. If you want to stick it to AS dupers, make it so you can’t post them in the shard auction house.

[phalaeo]

I spent a good two hours tonight playing around with weapon combos- so much fun. :)

This was the only thing that stood out to me--

No combination/option for a DR breaker? Every other epic weapon I can think of has at least one augment slot. I understand there might be difficulty coding for regular augments on these, but I'm surprised that the base weapon doesn't count as Metalline.

EDIT:

Just to re-iterate (after getting many questions from a variety of sources): Only tier 1,2,3 weapon effects are functioning on this Lamannia build, and are directly inspired by Heroic Green Steel (feel free to compare!). Equipment effects are not in yet. Active Augments are not in yet. "Bonus" effects are not in yet. This is a testing of the system, though the weapon effects on Lamannia are the ones we're currently intending to ship with.

Didn't see this post about "Bonus" effects.... thanks for the clarification that there's more to come along with the Actives.

[maddong]

I add my name to the list for unbound ingredients.

[Drwaz99]

I'd also like to see the binding status mirror the heroic greensteel. BTA is not good for this. Base weapons, ingredients need to be unbound and tradeable. I'm ok with things like shards (or their equivalent) BTC.

[Basura_Grande]

Please tell me there will be a "Mineral III" affect or something for DR breaking.

[slarden]

This is exactly a simplified version of Heroic Green Steel. One of the advantages is that we aren't designing it from scratch (and many players aren't learning it from scratch), and it's often been considered one of the more loved crafting systems in the history DDO. That's a big part of why we're doing Legendary Green Steel at all.

It seems like a win to me so far!

[knightgf]

You have got to be kidding me. Not in a good way, but not in a bad way either. It is what it is.

...

Now that I got the shock of Legendary Green Steel over with, I have a few comments and questions to add:



Minimum level 26? I really hope you are considering changing the Minimum level of the Thunderholme items or else this will be a slap in the face for everyone who worked hard to craft those items.
You REALLY have to differentiate between epic and legendary. If the ML of this 'Legendary Green Steel' is 26, shouldn't it be called 'Epic Green Steel', even though the raid might take place at level 30+? Heck, im honestly confused, the line between epic and legendary is so blurry when you bend/break the rules about what is epic and what is legendary.
"There is no 20th reward list for Legendary raids." May I ask why? What on Ebberon made you decide this!? There is a good reason that 20th reward lists exist: It is to provide certain items that are more rare than usual to obtain in the raid. It doesn't have to be raid-specific materials; it could be tomes, a large batch of raid ingredients, a item that can safely extract greensteel augments, there are so many good items to chose from if you do enough raids over time.
What kind of story plot links the Shroud with the Hound of Xoriat AND Tempests Spine? From my viewpoint, it looks very bizarre.
I like how the crafting for the new green steel items uses the barter interface and has been a little bit simplified. It's way better than having to either guess your way through or open up a lengthy guide to crafting the item.
What made you decide to make the item blanks BtC and the ingredients to make them BtA? Why not allow them to be traded like the heroic versions?
I would like to know more about why this 'Taint of Shavarath' exists on the Epic version, and maybe a bit on the heroic version as well. What made you believe it was a good idea to add a 'Taint of Shavarath' on these items? I am not saying it is a bad thing, I am merely curious.


That is all. I look forward to hearing back from you soon!

[KLJJ]

[LIST]
Minimum level 26? I really hope you are considering changing the Minimum level of the Thunderholme items or else this will be a slap in the face for everyone who worked hard to craft those items.

Don't forget DoJ.


You REALLY have to differentiate between epic and legendary. If the ML of this 'Legendary Green Steel' is 26, shouldn't it be called 'Epic Green Steel', even though the raid might take place at level 30+? Heck, im honestly confused, the line between epic and legendary is so blurry when you bend/break the rules about what is epic and what is legendary.

Good point.


"There is no 20th reward list for Legendary raids." May I ask why?

That one is easy. You are guaranteed tokens every run. No need for a 20th. Shroud only has a 20th because you can't craft the taint remover. If you could craft it, you wouldn't need a 20th there either.

[Morroiel]

You have got to be kidding me. Not in a good way, but not in a bad way either. It is what it is.

...

Now that I got the shock of Legendary Green Steel over with, I have a few comments and questions to add:



Minimum level 26? I really hope you are considering changing the Minimum level of the Thunderholme items or else this will be a slap in the face for everyone who worked hard to craft those items.
You REALLY have to differentiate between epic and legendary. If the ML of this 'Legendary Green Steel' is 26, shouldn't it be called 'Epic Green Steel', even though the raid might take place at level 30+? Heck, im honestly confused, the line between epic and legendary is so blurry when you bend/break the rules about what is epic and what is legendary.
"There is no 20th reward list for Legendary raids." May I ask why? What on Ebberon made you decide this!? There is a good reason that 20th reward lists exist: It is to provide certain items that are more rare than usual to obtain in the raid. It doesn't have to be raid-specific materials; it could be tomes, a large batch of raid ingredients, a item that can safely extract greensteel augments, there are so many good items to chose from if you do enough raids over time.
What kind of story plot links the Shroud with the Hound of Xoriat AND Tempests Spine? From my viewpoint, it looks very bizarre.
I like how the crafting for the new green steel items uses the barter interface and has been a little bit simplified. It's way better than having to either guess your way through or open up a lengthy guide to crafting the item.
What made you decide to make the item blanks BtC and the ingredients to make them BtA? Why not allow them to be traded like the heroic versions?
I would like to know more about why this 'Taint of Shavarath' exists on the Epic version, and maybe a bit on the heroic version as well. What made you believe it was a good idea to add a 'Taint of Shavarath' on these items? I am not saying it is a bad thing, I am merely curious.


That is all. I look forward to hearing back from you soon!

Taint of Shavarath is supposed to exist on these items for lore reasons (something about the ingredients coming from plane of evil and we not being evil suffer damage from using the items) - also it has the added benefit of letting you use a limited amount of the items (which you can then increase through a lot of work/grind).

ML 26 legendary gs is what everyone asked for - and for good reason. The success of green steel in the past hinged on the fact it was twink gear for tring. ML 26 is the "epic/legend" equivalent of the 1-20 levels. While I'm not thrilled that my TF and TOEE gear is invalidated by this new system, I understand its for good reasons. First off, the old green steel invalidated some items from the original abbot raid (definitely invalidated some items from titan/demon/gh/von). So there is historical reasons. Secondly, it only invalidates them if you tr - as the new raid will/should only be completed by 30 level characters. Therefore you will only be able to craft an item and use it at level 26 if you are in the process of a etr/tr. Your old gear will be used to grind out the new gear (just as it is with everything else). You didn't grind out TF to use during a TR: you grinded it out to use at end game (as it is ml 28). It is okay if end game gear gets replaced - especially when a level cap gets raised. This new system will help you - as in the process of grinding out new end game gear it will give you twink tring gear at the same time. You are getting more bang for your buck this way.

Shroud and HOX are linked (HOX/VOD were a result of the devil invasion iirc - and shroud was the precursor or aftermath of said invasion). Idk about tempest spine but who cares - TS is an awesome raid.

Heroic green steel existed in a drasticaly different game than now: the games' playerbase has changed (been made smaller and lost multiple demographics). We now don't see a huge influx of new players (adding demand to content at a steady rate). We also don't have a "clean" currency thanks to the dupers. The only way to fairly exchange goods now in game comes from bartering with players through rare items. (shards/plat all have been duped at one point or another).

[sjbb87]

I add my name to the list for unbound ingredients.

Me too

[PsychoBlonde]

Question--why is Healing Amp a WEAPON ability?

And stats?

Plz do us a favor and make these both equipment, not weapon.

[Grailhawk]

After playing with GS on Lamannia here are my thoughts/findings.


Dropping shards is a bad idea they should exist and be BTC that way Scales, Bones, Chains, Arrowheads, Shrapnel, and Stones can be unbound.
Shocking burst was procing an on crit effect between 300-500 damage not enough testing to really know if thats the right range but that seams high to me would be nice if you gave us how much damage it does in the description.
It looks like double strikes are not having the gs effects apply to them.
logging off seams to remove all effects from the weapons.

[Systern]

I've had a few hours to digest all I came across tonight:

I don't like the design. You're re-inventing the crafting wheel yet again. The problem is that you've done it so many times you've run out of terms without reusing them.


To Access this system, there's a button on the UI that appears even if you don't own the content. That's confusing.
These Legendary Green Steel Augments, are ML 26, so they're not Legendary. And they don't go in U17's Augment Slot system, so they're not Augments.
It's probably way too late, but why can't these actually be real U17 Augments? Clickies in colorless. Tier 1 red/yellow/blue. Tier 2 Orange/Green. Tier 3 Purple/Green.
Tier 1 GS is +150 enhancement to spellpower. The same as TF. Less than ToEE's 156. Varg said this is supposed to be an upgrade over TF.
If they were real augments, The 37 Quality/Exceptional "augments" could go in the optional T2 TF slot, or in DoJ/MoD weapons. This integrates content instead of obsoleting it. ("Hmm, do I want TF Spell Pen, or a slot for some GS awesomeness?")
Warlocks are your newest class, and apparently they need to have the Druid treatment for 2 years. Thank you for finally making non-metal medium armor in this update. GS does not include Impulse or Radiance spellpowers, and Varg said there's no intention to include it. Bad binary design here. Either you Obsolete content, or you ignore it for not having anything for you.
GS has always been TR twink gear. ML 20 augments are twinky enough for the ER grind, and reslottable/flexible enough to go into higher ML gear (which typically have more slots than there are augments worth using)
Yea, U17 augments... not enough of them worth using, that can be obtained (can't even buy a Perform augment in the DDO store). Another crafting system abandoned. The king is dead; Long live the king.


Seriously, Guys. Stop doing this. It's really hard to make a "persistent world" when you keep scrapping and going back to the drawing board for every new update. Iterate, not recreate.


I'd throw in a complaint about BtA ingredients, but honestly, your economy is so screwed beyond belief it doesn't matter. Most of my characters are plat capped with nothing to spend it on - no one uses the auction house. I refuse to participate in the Astral Shard Exchange because I'm not going to pay you good money for a "currency" that you don't know what to do with and have abandoned, just like you didn't know what to do with and have abandoned plat.

BUG REPORT: Also, I'm not sure which augment was bugged, but the 37 quality/exceptional spellpower isn't stacking correctly. I made an EeDE (double earth) T3. Should be +74 Spellpower over the 150 spwr TF stick I was wielding before. I got a 39 spwr increase from the new weapon.

[Franghasea]

Thoughts:

* As a 18 Ice Sorc/2 Rogue I appreciated being able to substantially increase my Cold Spell Power. With metas and pots etc...I was easily able to mathematically achieve a sustainable cold spell power ~1000.
* Burst of the Glacier Wraith - This is a great feat/spell to be able to cast, weaving it into rotation with Dragon Breath/Energy Burst/Energy Vortex, especially with the 6 second
cool down.
* Master of Water feat - Any chance we could change out Snowball Swarm for Frost Lance? Also, could it be considered for there to be a L29 feat to make this apply to all cold
spells with this one as a prereq? (ie...Doyen of Water). I am going to miss casting Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Otiluke's and Polar Ray.
* EE questing no longer seemed to be a mana drain to be able to contribute at higher levels...
* I understand the BTA/BTC reasons for Shroud ingredients. Consider removing the BTA from S/S/S items as a trade off?
* Could TH items become ML 20/22/24/26 so that they retain their viability with the oncoming LGS so that the raids have a reason to still be run?

* As a side note...I was all excited in new gear and feats to go try my elemental hand at the DPS kobold (prior to stepping into a quest)...after emptying my blue bar and only knocking off about 15% of the kobold's health, I dejectedly sat down and watched a PM come up and instakill two of them. And that was right before the warlock arrived and in short order killed another, and the ranger came in and did the same if only taking some what longer. Ashamed, I hung my head, got up and quietly slunk away in the shadows...

[Kompera_Oberon]

There is no 20th reward list for Legendary raids.

Can you share your reasoning for this? The 20th completion reward is a fairly time-honored way for a player to have a shot at an item which they were simply unlucky enough not to have had drop for them. It is also a reward for a large amount of completions at the Epic Normal level. 20 completions seems like a rather large number, and given the change in raid timers removing the reward for that achievement seems to be a bit harsh.

[Seljuck]

Here is full list of Legendary Green Steel Effects (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/468457-Full-List-of-Legendary-Green-Steel-Effects?p=5734835&viewfull=1#post5734835)

[Miightyy]

Well, will monks get anything at all this update? Apart from nerfs as usual?

Cause at this rate I might as well not play for the next 6 months, until my class is (maybe) no longer deprecated.

+1 to that. I am VIP and I will most likely be quiting for a good while. Not to say that they care but lets face, if everyone quit they would be out of jobs with bad rep. Their excuse for not implementing handwraps in the update is kind of ridiculous (very complex to re-work).

They nerfed monks by taking away melee power from Two Weapon Fighting feats, then nerfed them even more into the ground by nerfing Mortal Fear right before one of the biggest update??? I mean common.... enough is enough... I am not going to be paying money for that kind of service (been VIP for over 5 years now)

Thank you being new content to us however...

Please pay attention to us monk players, understand us and include us in the game -- don't just blindly disregard what we have to say about monks...

[Bobby88888]

Enabling 'hotswapping' of augments in public areas without store only items seems like a brilliant way to go. It just makes sense. Why make us carry around 50 base items? we still need to make any aug we want to slot in it but we can instead transfer the work we have put into our weapons to a different weapon type if we change for any reason. Not to mention it lets us adjust our weapons for specific quests as necessary rather than having to carry half a dozen built to handle every situation.

If for some reason you won't do this, make the item you made to unslot the augments drop in the legendary raids (all 3) with ultra low/low/medium droprates on norm/hard/elite respectively. And add back in a 20th list that has a high change to have it on it (along with tomes etc)

I can't really comment on the abilities of the weapons until you complete the system but right now they just feel bland, but we are missing the bonus and clicky abilities so I will hold judgement. However, I hope many/most of the weapon abilities show up on accessories too.

[rayworks]

Why is everything BTA or BTC these days? Do you not understand that your player base hates that ****?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Haven't even finished reading it yet... but...


You mean we are going to have even MORE ingredients to manage?! :(

Can't we come up with some method of streamlining the various types of crafting and all the stuff required to do it.

Can't we come up with more generic ingredients, etc. that could drop in all quests, and be useful at all levels in out careers, and not be such a hassle to store, keep track of, figure what the heck it is used for.....etc. (manage)


Please.

[Kadrios]

Haven't even finished reading it yet... but...


You mean we are going to have even MORE ingredients to manage?! :(

Can't we come up with some method of streamlining the various types of crafting and all the stuff required to do it.

Can't we come up with more generic ingredients, etc. that could drop in all quests, and be useful at all levels in out careers, and not be such a hassle to store, keep track of, figure what the heck it is used for.....etc. (manage)


Please.

So Cannith Crafting Essences then?

[RD2play]

Here is full list of Legendary Green Steel Effects (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/468457-Full-List-of-Legendary-Green-Steel-Effects?p=5734835&viewfull=1#post5734835)

I am missing the Evil DR breaker flag, aren't Green-Steel weapons to be considered Evil ?

How many codex runes are dropped on norm/hard/elite ? Thus how long will it take for a player to get enough for one item? with heroic GS you could make a base weapon relatively early without having to run the raid (much) this might put some players off.

edit: also on "live" the GS weapons are BtCoE this leaves room for error on the players part. I would hate to see all the QQ posts from people who crafted their blank on the wrong char! So maybe consider BtCoE + no trade? so at least you could drop it in your Shared bank and pass it over.

Also will the T3 "special effects" remain unknown ? With this I mean will the community have to figure these out (on the live servers), by making the combinations or are we going to get a list? (I would rather see another community effort here to find these!)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So Cannith Crafting Essences then?

Something....

On one hand, I want there to be cool ingredients to find, but keeping track of all this stuff... and collecting it....(and long tedious steps to use them) Is a major headache.

I don't really want boring crystals for everything...
I just want some solution to the problem.

(I also do not like having to grind certain quests to upgrade items, I would like to be able to play any quest and open random chests where I /cheer when I pull a cool ingredient.)


(an exchange vendor would be the easiest option IMO... if you can agree on an exchange rate anyway....)

[RD2play]

Now I know Lama is a 'preview' server Varg...and I KNOW that you guys ( the devs) WILL NOT CHANGE THIS, but...can all these people really be wrong? Make it like old shroud where the ings where not bound in any way and you still need to run the raid for the shards/things/new widgets to make your blanks and upgrade your weapons/items.

You guys do know that the doupers will doup everything they need ( if douping still is possible) and the normal people will be left in the dust like usual. You guys really have no clue do you? This is a perfect opportunity to make the in-game economy alive again. There is nothing to trade for or buy because EVERYTHING is BtC, BtA.

The new random loot gen does look kind of interesting and it might renew some interest in the Server trade channels but...most will only be looking for that one in a million combo which will sell for a absurd amount of AS.

I know you guys will get on this soon™.

I think that at least the T1 & T2 ingredients should be unbound in this system. IMO it is quite different from the heroic version which might lead to more confusion than it solves, but we'll see. The thing I see happening here is that you need one (1) lets say medium ingredient and you are at the mercy of the RNG-loot-Gods, instead of the heroic where you could get one from a guildy, a friend or even get one from the AH! Also I noticed that you got rid of the BTC shards of power ?!? in the old system these where the parts that made your char have to run the raid!

[dunklezhan]

Here's what you do:



Play Update 29 quests & raids, collecting ingredients. This includes all 3 raids - yes, Legendary Hound of Xoriat and Legendary Tempest Spine provide indirect access to Legendary Green Steel ingredients. (There's some extra steps here because we don't want to simply drop Devil Scales for players who might not even own the Vale and aren't going to be crafting LGS.) We currently plan for Tier 1 and Tier 2 ingredients to be found in various quests. Tier 3 ingredients will only drop in the Shroud.
Craft "blank" weapons and equipment. This will use crafting materials primarily from Shroud end-chests.
Craft Legendary Green Steel Augments (LGSA).

Each blank LGS item has 4 Green Steel Augment Slots. These slots cannot hold any augments that exist in Update 28 or earlier, but instead hold various kinds of Legendary Green Steel augments crafted from LGS ingredients. (These slots only hold Green Steel Augments, and these Green Steel Augments only go in these slots, in other words.)
There will be hundreds of different possible augments. There's a few different ways to count them, and some are definitely similar to one another, but depending on how you count them there are between ~120 and ~600 augments (depending on what you consider "different" augments - the lower number is ).



This looks great, especially point 1.





Basic Information


There is no 20th reward list for Legendary raids.
You collect Codex Runes (name subject to change) by completing Legendary Shroud.

BTA.
These might be used as turn-ins for other kinds of rewards (such as you might have found on a 20th reward list).


You collect Legendary tiered ingredients that are highly analogous to the tiered ingredients in Heroic Green Steel.

BTA.


Blanks are the initial Weapons and Equipment with empty Augment slots.

BTC.


Crafting Legendary Green Steel Augments

BTA.


Handwraps are not included in Legendary Green Steel in Update 29. We wanted to get the revamp of handwrap technology in for Update 29, but that's a fairly massive task and just couldn't be done. We understand this is quite frustrating for some players.





I'm largely really pleased with what this looks like on paper so far. the above are points I'm not 100% happy about.

First, binding: there's nothing tradeable with other players in the system? Nothing? I like trading with other players, and feeling like I'm feeding an 'economy'. Please consider making at least some part of this unbound.

Second, monks: I can't tell you how much this irks me. I have 19 characters, only one of which is a monk. So I do have a horse in the race in terms of wanting legendary greensteel, but I have more horses that stand to benefit by you going ahead sooner. And I'd still rather wait until you can go ahead with covering handwraps. I realise that I could build a monk to actually use one of its other 'centered weapon' options but frankly I love the monk unarmed animations, and I just prefer to use handwraps. I know the decision is made - but I'd just like to register my objection and my willingness to accept GS delays as a cost of finally fixing handwraps.

Finally, and I've lost the relevant quote: removing augments with a store item. two things:
1. These need to be accessible in game somehow, come on, even the marketing folks must know this to be true. At least get them in the daily dice tables, orpart of that mysterious 'trade in rewards instead of 20th completions' mechanic.
2. I know they "aren't like other augments", but for heaven's sake why not just make the existing jeweller's kits work with the LGS augments, we don't need a separate one every time you do a new crafting system. Please.

[Seljuck]

New Legendary Green Steel effects missig Force, Repair and Sonic spell power. Is there any chance to add them? As well as melee dmg versions.

[Hawkwier]

Hi

Legendary Greensteel. Excellent! :)

But unbind alll ingredients though please. There is no need.

Non duped LRBTs, along with the flexibility of this system will enable it to be around and played for s very long time!

Let traders trade and players play and payers pay in any combination that works for them.

Kill exclusivity.

Be inclusive.

Revitalise this wonderful game! :)

[phalaeo]

New Legendary Green Steel effects missig Force, Repair and Sonic spell power. Is there any chance to add them? As well as melee dmg versions.

Was going to post this as well-
My husband didn't see Light spell power, either.

I can understand sticking to the "Power 4" elemental damage types in ToEE-- it fit with the theme of the quest. But if this is supposed to be endgame gear, it should really have something for everyone, spellpower-wise.

[BigErkyKid]

Here is full list of Legendary Green Steel Effects (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/468457-Full-List-of-Legendary-Green-Steel-Effects?p=5734835&viewfull=1#post5734835)

What the heck! Is this the real full list? Some damage, spell power and stacking stats? That's it? This is the most boring thing I have seen in a long time. Go back to the drawing board, please, and add a good 20 unusual effects on top of this standard power creep.

[Saekee]

What the heck! Is this the real full list? Some damage, spell power and stacking stats? That's it? This is the most boring thing I have seen in a long time. Go back to the drawing board, please, and add a good 20 unusual effects on top of this standard power creep.
This is what is not listed, anyway:

Tier 3 "Bonus" Effects etc.
This flavor & to an extent "mystery" is retained. This is what the Primary & Secondary focuses in tier 3 are about - the secondary focus only really matters for this. Based on your slotted Augments, you receive a bonus effect. The bonus effect is only shows up after putting the augments in, since it depends on combinations of all three tiers of augments.

Tier 3 Bonus Effects may or may not be similar to Heroic versions (scaled up to higher numbers if so). Some of this may depend on time, but we'd like to be more creative here - rather than in the normal Tiered effects, which are mostly well suited for simply coming up into Legendary with higher value numbers.

[pumagirl418]

Why ingredients are BTA? Economy already do not exist in this game and every update You kill it even more. it's like hitting someone lying on the ground.


I understand Turbine wants re-playable content and to give the player base something to do. The problem is by continuing the BTA route, we are cutting off returning players, casual players, and new players...

Matter of fact I had a returning player asking about loot. All the loot they wanted was bound, they have been on once since that time. A month ago... :(


For goodness sake make loot unauctionable, if that will make you feel better, but quit making everything bound from the start. Be that to character or account.

I understand the player base here wants harder, tougher quests, monsters, etc. The problem is returning, casual, and new players don't have all that to fall back on, get discouraged or whatever and leave or barely play...

Bind the top tiers, not the lower tiers and the blanks... if you must
By the way people here with the best gear, completionists, etc, say they have no use for the auction houses... :(

[Seljuck]

What the heck! Is this the real full list? Some damage, spell power and stacking stats? That's it? This is the most boring thing I have seen in a long time. Go back to the drawing board, please, and add a good 20 unusual effects on top of this standard power creep.

This is list of effects that are actually on Lama and can be created. This list will expand when new effects will be added. I'll add rectification to main thread about this.


This is what is not listed, anyway:

Tier 3 "Bonus" Effects etc.
This flavor & to an extent "mystery" is retained. This is what the Primary & Secondary focuses in tier 3 are about - the secondary focus only really matters for this. Based on your slotted Augments, you receive a bonus effect. The bonus effect is only shows up after putting the augments in, since it depends on combinations of all three tiers of augments.

Tier 3 Bonus Effects may or may not be similar to Heroic versions (scaled up to higher numbers if so). Some of this may depend on time, but we'd like to be more creative here - rather than in the normal Tiered effects, which are mostly well suited for simply coming up into Legendary with higher value numbers.

This is not currently active on Lama, so I can't add this to list. Sorry. I will add this effects when they will be shown and known on Lama.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i agree making the ingredients bound is a missed opportunity. heroic gs you still had to run the raid to make the items (besides the blanks, which nobody cares about) because of the shards of power but could still trade rare ings such as lds. i mean, people dont really have any reason to buy shards as is, heres your chance to make some money.


when i saw some of the loot on lamma...my first thought was holy power creep. i hope reaper or legendary or whatever justifies it. also, doesnt it make more sense to make the epic gs weapons ml 28 since youre releasing them the same update as the cap goes up to 30? theyd still be twink items but wouldnt invalidate tf in every conceivable way at least.


i hope that the +14 stats and +7 insightful stats arent available only on weapons, that would be just wrong. additionally i think there was a ton of stat creep, enhancement, insightful, and quality, and some stats are more equal than others, especially between different types of builds. i hope youve got this all calculated out nicely because it seems like a big mess right now to me, which is a scary thought in light of your track record...


the weapon effects that i saw didnt seem original in the slightest, pretty disappointing... 6d6 on hit, bored. elemental "burst damage" (as in flaming burst, or fiery detonation? on crit or on vorpal?), bored no matter what it is, and also not a fan of random procs with very low proc chances that just do dmg. various mrr and hamp bonuses, meh EXTREMELY bored, and they shouldnt be on weapons anyway. honestly saying that there are at least 120 new augments is pretty much a MASSIVE lie. theyre boring rehashes, only thing im excited about is the base damage. oh, and the lack of metal dr breaking ability and/or incompatibility with non legendary metal dr breaking augs is a serious, serious oversight, who designed this? the guy who likes artificers and doesnt have to worry about dr? or is this an attempt to make artis more valuable, which i could get behind if its a stated dev goal and not just a big fat question mark...


on the other hand, it looks like two handed weapons, throwers, bows, and bastard swords all got an extra crit multiplier. im down with that, and i hope its a system that continues past epic greensteel, should we someday reach such a point. and btw this does finally mean that esos is definitively beaten by the epic gs falchion. and also the new weapon skins for the lgs gaxe, gsword, and falc are absolutely awesome, too bad they only come in green and that thf sucks hard, but still nice work there.


no 20th list distinction at all? or there wont be raid items dropping in the 20ths? if there is no special loot at all in the 20ths, thats messed up. there should be chances at +5, 6, 7 stat tomes and no skill tomes polluting the loot table. this brings up another issue i have. whats the point of making a versatile aug based system if you are going to strangle it from the get go by making the versatility of it p2w only? there should be a small chance of legendary aug tool kits in every run, higher on elite, and a moderate chance in 20th lists. this no 20th lists and p2w talk is sickening, get real.


a sort of unrelated point, though it is tied in to gear... melee power, blitz, and twf. build i have on lamma right now is a pure rogue who is reaching 91 mp before blitz and toee set. the base damage on lgs weapons is ridiculously high, and using the toee offhand set may not be justified in the future (i dont know if the extra base dmg and better armor mathematically beats +20 mp), but the issue here is that as we add more and more mp blitz is going to become weaker and weaker, and eventually crusader will be the only reasonable choice for dps due to the heal factor and burst dps. the time is coming when the functionality of blitz will have to be addressed, and i dont mean just tweaking the numbers.

[Atremus]

Please add light spell power to the crafting alters for weapons.

[RD2play]

I cannot believe that Legendary Green Steel is missing the actual Green Steel effect!

Green Steel: This planar alloy has a greasy green-colored sheen and is favored by the Baatezu the devils of Shavarath. Green steel weapons leave terrible wounds, increasing the damage die type of the weapon and are treated as EVIL-ALIGNED for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction

[Hipparan]

I cannot believe that Legendary Green Steel is missing the actual Green Steel effect!

Green Steel: This planar alloy has a greasy green-colored sheen and is favored by the Baatezu the devils of Shavarath. Green steel weapons leave terrible wounds, increasing the damage die type of the weapon and are treated as EVIL-ALIGNED for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction

^This really should be fixed. It's probably a minor thing to fix too, but we need Green Steel to be Green Steel!

[Ayseifn]

a sort of unrelated point, though it is tied in to gear... melee power, blitz, and twf. build i have on lamma right now is a pure rogue who is reaching 91 mp before blitz and toee set. the base damage on lgs weapons is ridiculously high, and using the toee offhand set may not be justified in the future (i dont know if the extra base dmg and better armor mathematically beats +20 mp), but the issue here is that as we add more and more mp blitz is going to become weaker and weaker, and eventually crusader will be the only reasonable choice for dps due to the heal factor and burst dps. the time is coming when the functionality of blitz will have to be addressed, and i dont mean just tweaking the numbers.
Doublestrike is capped at 100%, so Crusader will actually just get worse as time goes on unless the dev's stop increasing the doublestrike you can get or make over 100% mean something. Melee Power keeps scaling to infinity linearly, so not really seeing the issue unless you have 50% or less DS and don't think your DS will never go up.

You can also twist in the DC healing on your LD toon like a lot of people not in LD used to twist in Momentum Swing and Lay Waste, I'm honestly really scratching my head as to why you think DC will ever beat LD in DPS to be honest.

[Seljuck]

^This really should be fixed. It's probably a minor thing to fix too, but we need Green Steel to be Green Steel!

This. It's not game breaking, but it's more lore friendly.

[davmuzl]

So it looks to me like the plan is to have improved crit pofiles for all legendary GS weapons. I don't think that's a good idea.

Giving LGS better crit is going to limit design of future named weapons, because they will have to compete with LGS.
Especially combined with the improved base damage, these are some really powerful weapons. It would be totally fine to give them only the improved base damage. Improved crit profiles can just be added to the bonus effects for having 3 augments (this would also allow for an option where players can choose which kind of crit improvement they prefer).

Really like the way most of the new weapons look like, but please make something different for the khopesh. A khopesh is not the same thing as a scimitar.

[BigErkyKid]

This is what is not listed, anyway:

Tier 3 "Bonus" Effects etc.
This flavor & to an extent "mystery" is retained. This is what the Primary & Secondary focuses in tier 3 are about - the secondary focus only really matters for this. Based on your slotted Augments, you receive a bonus effect. The bonus effect is only shows up after putting the augments in, since it depends on combinations of all three tiers of augments.

Tier 3 Bonus Effects may or may not be similar to Heroic versions (scaled up to higher numbers if so). Some of this may depend on time, but we'd like to be more creative here - rather than in the normal Tiered effects, which are mostly well suited for simply coming up into Legendary with higher value numbers.

Thanks for the answer. However, given that tier 3 is of limited availability (how many shroud runs?) and only a fraction of the effects, I still don't like the list. For the rest it is pure power creep on stats (spell power, char stats) with some sprinkles of raw damage procs.

It looks like they went for whatever is easier to code. In addition, it invalidates some of the previous gear (mainly stats based gear).

[Silverleafeon]

Looking greensteel all over.

Fire, cold, acid, electric, positive, negative

Big bonuses on weapon to stats

ect

This is tradition and makes sense to me.
It makes TF (that has force, sonic, etc) different from greensteel.

However, I will ask for a bone for divine and explain why:


Master of Alignment was Holy Smite, Chaos Hammer, Order's Wrath, Unholy Blight, Defict Vengence
I will point out that is only two good spells in most dungeons, because most dungeons have an alignment pattern.
Trust me, I have had divines with all four of the level four alignement spells and typically I only cast one of them.
So, please throw divine a big bone and add Flamestrike to the Master of Alignment while leaving the other five spells already in the feat still there.

Building a Favored Soul, I have found there is definitely room to take two Master of ____ feats in such a build.

Thanks for listening.


PS I sure would like to see:

Tome of Epic Destiny Points (add +1 point to spend in epic destinies per plus)
Tome of Enhancement Points (add +1 point to spend in enhancement per plus)

Even if they only went to +2 or +3 it would be a nice addition to the game w/o too much power creep.
Make sure they drop in game as well as DDO store.

[Saekee]

Thanks for the answer. However, given that tier 3 is of limited availability (how many shroud runs?) and only a fraction of the effects, I still don't like the list. For the rest it is pure power creep on stats (spell power, char stats) with some sprinkles of raw damage procs.

It looks like they went for whatever is easier to code. In addition, it invalidates some of the previous gear (mainly stats based gear).

I guess that if one were to compare it to heroic GS, the heroic GS weapons are blahh until you get the bonus effect from tier 3 (with some exceptions.) They still haven't shared the active 'clickies' aspect as well.

[Erofen]

Even if they only went to +2 or +3 it would be a nice addition to the game w/o too much power creep.

2 capstones...

[SirShen]

If you really must make the ingredients bound to account PLEASE ADD A TRADE IN, i do not want to have 200 Legendary Bones that are sat in my bag doing nothing because i was unlucky with drop rates.

[Alkusoittow]

Tier 2 Bug: Insightful Intel +7 shard has been applied, and it DOES affect character intel, but does not show up in weapon description (tooltip).

This was on a khopesh.

Sorry if this is a repeat of someone else's bug report.

[gphysalis]

Personally, I like the decision to keep things from new content bound.

[Vasax]

Did someone say Sentient? Keep dreaming...

http://s9.postimg.org/4bmiaj7qn/mortssongvasaxtheepic.jpg

http://s27.postimg.org/80mpu7uoj/dustofracelessnessvasaxtheepic.jpg

http://s18.postimg.org/m7wgt8gtl/ulimbowvasaxepic.jpg

[Silverleafeon]

Did someone say Sentient?

When sentient arrives, please make it level 30, and please include every possible style of toons that you can, thank you.
Yes, that means light too.

[IronClan]

Dropping shards is a bad idea they should exist and be BTC that way Scales, Bones, Chains, Arrowheads, Shrapnel, and Stones can be unbound.



Agreed, Varg this is a seemingly minor but vital point: GS has longevity partially because of the binding status of shards... it allows ings to be freely traded but characters must actually do shroud to make items (because of the BTC shards of power).

One of the very reasons that Heroic Shroud has had such longevity and LFM filling potential is the fact that EVERYONE needs mutliple shards of power/Great power/Supreme power.

It's not a minor point, it's the lynchpin of the system. The keystone... if you remove it you subtly break the formula that lead to the original success.

With it: you can have an economy item (tradable ings) without it you can't. With it people re-run shroud several times on EVERY alt, and they may run it even more to sell ings, without it they only need run shroud on 1 character and will never repeat it for extra ings because they can't be sold.

[Alkusoittow]

Khopesh says it does 2d8 damage, but actual damage numbers don't match. Also, Khopesh's generally don't do 2d8 damage, so probably just a typo... or are they really supposed to do 2d8?

*edit* Just crafted a bastard sword, and it shows 2d10, but again, actual damage numbers do not appear to reflect the additional stated die.

[IronClan]

Haven't even finished reading it yet... but...


You mean we are going to have even MORE ingredients to manage?! :(

Can't we come up with some method of streamlining the various types of crafting and all the stuff required to do it.

The answer is nope. This is an oft repeated and seldom understood aspect of game design around here.

Available everywhere = people only farm the easiest most exploitable quest
Reusing older ingrediants = people who have massive stock piles don't need to run new content because their bags are filled from running old quests
Reusing = dupers have massive stock piles

I have a character that wears heroic GS that has never even run shroud. How? That's not possible? because Devil Assault drops shards and I accumulated more shards than I could ever use farming for tokens. Admitedly this is only one toon, but it shows the pitfalls of allowing ings from different content. I also have more Shroud ings than I'll ever use, so re-using them for LGS would allow me to make an full LGS item on DAY 1 of the update. Making it pointless to run the content.

So long and short of it is: yes if they want new content to be run by everyone they must have new things in them that are desirable to obtain. Ingredients allow slower incremental progress. where single named items are binary and you either got them or not. So crafting systems that allow accrual of ings are a VERY well liked system, you take the good with the bad and collect a new set of ings.

[hunzi2010]

Why ingredients are BTA? Economy already do not exist in this game and every update You kill it even more. it's like hitting someone lying on the ground.

Because its people like you that rip others off on the shard exchange. if your not interested in shards then you would be replying.


Maybe you guys didn't notice but trade forums for every server have been kinda dead for a long time.
Why the heck are you making everything bta ?

read above same thing.

You guys just want to spam ing on the shard exchange so you can rip off people that are looking for ing and then have to pay through the nose for them.

The biggest mistake turbine did was invent that shard exchange. things already exist with turbine points, buy a turbine point card if you want stuff instead of shards.
and if you want to have a cry about the shard exchange then go vip and stop being a free loader.
what make me laugh is the image in the first post and over 2 million shards....
yeah yeah I know its lamania.....
I am very happy that ing are BTA and I will be farming the **** out of quests for ing... I think this is an AWSOME idea, so many people love the way that the new Amarath quest items are BTA and I am glad they are sticking to it for the new greensteel items too.
thumbs up for me :)

[Whippy]

There is no 20th reward list for Legendary raids.

Legendary Taint of Shavarath
It's real, and painful if you equip multiple pieces of Legendary Green Steel Equipment. Exact methods for dealing with it will be somewhat analogous to heroic. Details to come later.



Why? If there is no 20th reward list, how do we get cleansing gems?


On first read I really like it, glad to see that you have kept a lot from the orginal green steel crafting, with some nice changes. Hopefully the augments will be able to be removed with a special tool similar to a jewellers kit to allow for some flexibility which will be much needed considering the amount of time it takes us to get a hold of all the ingredients. Making them BTA will make this even harder. For those of us who were around for the first go at getting a double shard tier 3 item, we haven't forgotten how long it took and how many runs of shroud we did on every single character we had off timer for a few months! Nevertheless, I am a fan of the greensteel system and it will be nice to have a real thing to aim for again.

I think it's important that, just like in heroic, ingredients remain a guaranteed drop at each stage of the raid. As it is now, you should get at least 1 per run for each tier, which could be increased to the possiblilty of 2 or 3 on hard/elite. I'm sick of doing Deathwyrm runs on hard and getting no phlogs every single time. Also please keep the drop rate of shards reasonable.

[Propane]

Please consider bumping the ML for Green Steel to 27.

Why?

Keep old loot / crafting relevant.

LV 20 - Old Epic Items / Alchemical / etc..
LV 23 - CiTW loot
LV 24- 26 - Thunderforged
LV 27+ EGreen Steel

Having Epic Green Steel at Min LV 26 is going to finish off the Thunder forge quests.
Give some space for people to want both Thunderforged items and EGreen Steel.

Increasing the drop rates for Phlogistons would also keep that content alive.
FoT was well done with Commendations drops - change both of the Thunderforged raids to the same drop system and people will run them more.
(same for CiTw)!

[Vargouille]

There will be upcoming posts re: binding status (others are writing them).


Can you share your reasoning for this? The 20th completion reward is a fairly time-honored way for a player to have a shot at an item which they were simply unlucky enough not to have had drop for them. It is also a reward for a large amount of completions at the Epic Normal level. 20 completions seems like a rather large number, and given the change in raid timers removing the reward for that achievement seems to be a bit harsh.

That one is easy. You are guaranteed tokens every run. No need for a 20th. Shroud only has a 20th because you can't craft the taint remover. If you could craft it, you wouldn't need a 20th there either.
This is more or less correct. 20th lists are largely replaced with the BTA "Codex Runes" (but different items for other raids). The most important factor here is that it allows us to reward hard and elite. In the past, it was common practice for many raids to simply play the raid 20 times on Normal. We don't want that to simply be the obviously best way to get the rewards from that raid. Since we do expect Hard an Elite to take more time and resources (and possible failure chance) compared to Normal, those difficulties should be more rewarding than Normal, as well.

20th lists are not ideal in terms of allowing players to play content in a way that is engages and challenges them. We know many players want to be challenged, but feel that method is "playing wrong" if they could get the same rewards faster by not being challenged.


You mean we are going to have even MORE ingredients to manage?! :(

Can't we come up with some method of streamlining the various types of crafting and all the stuff required to do it.

Can't we come up with more generic ingredients, etc. that could drop in all quests, and be useful at all levels in out careers, and not be such a hassle to store, keep track of, figure what the heck it is used for.....etc. (manage)

No. It cannot be done in that manner (at least, not entirely).

We're willing to hear suggestions, but the following requirements must be met:

Players cannot have all available ingredients before new quest(s) using those ingredients come out. Update 29 would almost automatically be a failure if nearly everyone had fully upgraded Legendary Green Steel the day it released.
Playing each quest pack needs to be incentivized. While we respect that players would something like to just play whatever quest they want, playing Haverdasher again and again should not give access to Thunderforged, Green Steel, and Temple of Elemental Evil items.
Ingredients and Crafting generally exists to make life easier and less frustrating, not harder. We absolutely could just have each and every augment from Legendary Green Steel drop as rewards in the Shroud (tier 1s where tier 1 ingredients drop, tier 3s only in the end chest, etc.), and blanks could just randomly appear in the end chest. But with 40+ different blanks and 600+ different augments, the chance of getting what you want is extremely low. This would entirely eliminate all LGS ingredients, and be far less fun and engaging and probably frustrating.


We've tried to retain much of the flavor and possibilities of Heroic Green Steel while reducing complexity. There are dozens of ingredients from Heroic Green Steel that we've chosen to not carry over to Legendary (including entire tiers of ingredients: Chipmunk Funk etc. x5, Tapers etc. x~12, 5 Shavarath Stones + 1 Signet Stone, dead power cells, the need to charge dead power cells, "empty" shards). We're aware players aren't always keenly interested in lots of ingredients.


New Legendary Green Steel effects missig Force, Repair and Sonic spell power. Is there any chance to add them? As well as melee dmg versions.

We are unlikely to add these to Legendary Green Steel. There's a lot of possibilities already, and it is not our goal that every desirable attribute as part of Green Steel (as we've received requests for a wide variety of things besides these spell powers, though spell powers are commonly brought up). Some of these will definitely appear on other items, including random loot.


So it looks to me like the plan is to have improved crit pofiles for all legendary GS weapons. I don't think that's a good idea.

Giving LGS better crit is going to limit design of future named weapons, because they will have to compete with LGS.
Especially combined with the improved base damage, these are some really powerful weapons. It would be totally fine to give them only the improved base damage. Improved crit profiles can just be added to the bonus effects for having 3 augments (this would also allow for an option where players can choose which kind of crit improvement they prefer).

Really like the way most of the new weapons look like, but please make something different for the khopesh. A khopesh is not the same thing as a scimitar.

As noted in the second post:

Weapons have often incorrect critical profiles and base damage for this build.

Additionally, while I'm not sure of exactly which items are still coming in, not all new art is in place. We made a special effort to get some of the new art in place so players can get a general idea of what it looks like, but most of it wasn't ready yet.


I guess that if one were to compare it to heroic GS, the heroic GS weapons are blahh until you get the bonus effect from tier 3 (with some exceptions.) They still haven't shared the active 'clickies' aspect as well.
We're more than happy for players to compare the tiered heroic weapon effects to the ones you guys have seen in Legendary Green Steel so far. They're quite directly inspired with few major design changes, other than the numbers and bonus types (which we've generally made much kinder - many effects in Heroic Green Steel used the same bonus type for all three tiers for the same stats, so only the best would apply).


Tier 2 Bug: Insightful Intel +7 shard has been applied, and it DOES affect character intel, but does not show up in weapon description (tooltip).

As noted in the second post, tooltips on the weapons themselves do not yet reflect the augments or slots in them. We just haven't done that UI work yet.

[Thar]

There will be upcoming posts re: binding status (others are writing them).

This is more or less correct. 20th lists are largely replaced with the BTA "Codex Runes" (but different items for other raids). The most important factor here is that it allows us to reward hard and elite. In the past, it was common practice for many raids to simply play the raid 20 times on Normal. We don't want that to simply be the obviously best way to get the rewards from that raid. Since we do expect Hard an Elite to take more time and resources (and possible failure chance) compared to Normal, those difficulties should be more rewarding than Normal, as well.

20th lists are not ideal in terms of allowing players to play content in a way that is engages and challenges them. We know many players want to be challenged, but feel that method is "playing wrong" if they could get the same rewards faster by not being challenged.

No. It cannot be done in that manner (at least, not entirely).

We're willing to hear suggestions, but the following requirements must be met:

Players cannot have all available ingredients before new quest(s) using those ingredients come out. Update 29 would almost automatically be a failure if nearly everyone had fully upgraded Legendary Green Steel the day it released.
Playing each quest pack needs to be incentivized. While we respect that players would something like to just play whatever quest they want, playing Haverdasher again and again should not give access to Thunderforged, Green Steel, and Temple of Elemental Evil items.
Ingredients and Crafting generally exists to make life easier and less frustrating, not harder. We absolutely could just have each and every augment from Legendary Green Steel drop as rewards in the Shroud (tier 1s where tier 1 ingredients drop, tier 3s only in the end chest, etc.), and blanks could just randomly appear in the end chest. But with 40+ different blanks and 600+ different augments, the chance of getting what you want is extremely low. This would entirely eliminate all LGS ingredients, and be far less fun and engaging and probably frustrating.


We've tried to retain much of the flavor and possibilities of Heroic Green Steel while reducing complexity. There are dozens of ingredients from Heroic Green Steel that we've chosen to not carry over to Legendary (including entire tiers of ingredients: Chipmunk Funk etc. x5, Tapers etc. x~12, 5 Shavarath Stones + 1 Signet Stone, dead power cells, the need to charge dead power cells, "empty" shards). We're aware players aren't always keenly interested in lots of ingredients.



We are unlikely to add these to Legendary Green Steel. There's a lot of possibilities already, and it is not our goal that every desirable attribute as part of Green Steel (as we've received requests for a wide variety of things besides these spell powers, though spell powers are commonly brought up). Some of these will definitely appear on other items, including random loot.



As noted in the second post:


Additionally, while I'm not sure of exactly which items are still coming in, not all new art is in place. We made a special effort to get some of the new art in place so players can get a general idea of what it looks like, but most of it wasn't ready yet.


We're more than happy for players to compare the tiered heroic weapon effects to the ones you guys have seen in Legendary Green Steel so far. They're quite directly inspired with few major design changes, other than the numbers and bonus types (which we've generally made much kinder - many effects in Heroic Green Steel used the same bonus type for all three tiers for the same stats, so only the best would apply).



As noted in the second post, tooltips on the weapons themselves do not yet reflect the augments or slots in them. We just haven't done that UI work yet.

20th lists are not ideal in terms of allowing players to play content in a way that is engages and challenges them. We know many players want to be challenged, but feel that method is "playing wrong" if they could get the same rewards faster by not being challenged.

20th lists were a response to ridiculously low drop rates in raids and the prior 2 guarenteed items per raid (and stone system). people were raging after doing 120 titan runs without pulling the item they wanted. IN ADDITION, hard and elite raids were viable. elite deathwyrm, elite fot and probably some others are not viable for any except the 0.1% due to the damage output or dps needed.


As for the ingrediants, I think what poster was sayins is something like why are we not using the comms of heroism... that system died after two raids. Why did that end? It provided some upgradabliity and was still hard to obtain (with super low drop rates in citw and large amount needed to upgrade items or armor). Similar with TF raids. I think what the poster is saying is stop this mismatch of crafting systems. make it cross applicable going forward or autoincrease all the ingrediant bag slots. WE DON'T have room for everything due to all the prior crafting systems, shards, seals, shards, coms, greensteal ing, etc etc. Even with bought space, with tr gear many people have minimal spots left.

Will we ever see some expanded crafting system for armor and any crafting system for shields?? handwraps are at least promised a future update, shield users have nothing.

[davmuzl]

So it looks to me like the plan is to have improved crit pofiles for all legendary GS weapons. I don't think that's a good idea.

Giving LGS better crit is going to limit design of future named weapons, because they will have to compete with LGS.
Especially combined with the improved base damage, these are some really powerful weapons. It would be totally fine to give them only the improved base damage. Improved crit profiles can just be added to the bonus effects for having 3 augments (this would also allow for an option where players can choose which kind of crit improvement they prefer).

Really like the way most of the new weapons look like, but please make something different for the khopesh. A khopesh is not the same thing as a scimitar.


As noted in the second post:


Additionally, while I'm not sure of exactly which items are still coming in, not all new art is in place. We made a special effort to get some of the new art in place so players can get a general idea of what it looks like, but most of it wasn't ready yet.

Just was confused because there were modified crit profiles at all. Could have been that you want to change all crit profiles and just haven't done it to all of them yet. If the weapons aren't going to have modified crit profiles in the end it's all good.

The thing with the khopesh is that in the past the shape of a lot of khopeshes didn't really fit to what a khopesh looks like in reality. They often had a tip at the end (in contrast to something like a longsword they can't be used as a piercing weapon at all) and the weight distribution also was off in a lot of cases (usually too much weight near the grip, for example the thunderforged khopesh).
In addition to that sometimes the same model was used for both khopeshes and scimitars (for example the toee khopesh was used as a scimitar before).
One that looked really nice (at least imo) was the alchemical one.
The khopesh in the lamannia build looked the same as the new scimitar again and not the old khopesh.

[Thrudh]

Why is everything BTA or BTC these days? Do you not understand that your player base hates that ****?

Because of dupers, I'd imagine.

[Thrudh]

Agreed, Varg this is a seemingly minor but vital point: GS has longevity partially because of the binding status of shards... it allows ings to be freely traded but characters must actually do shroud to make items (because of the BTC shards of power).

One of the very reasons that Heroic Shroud has had such longevity and LFM filling potential is the fact that EVERYONE needs mutliple shards of power/Great power/Supreme power.

It's not a minor point, it's the lynchpin of the system. The keystone... if you remove it you subtly break the formula that lead to the original success.

With it: you can have an economy item (tradable ings) without it you can't. With it people re-run shroud several times on EVERY alt, and they may run it even more to sell ings, without it they only need run shroud on 1 character and will never repeat it for extra ings because they can't be sold.

I agree with this 100%. Shroud was successful for the reasons stated above... But if they can't fix duping, then they may not be able to allow unbound ingrediants.

[Krelar]

This is more or less correct. 20th lists are largely replaced with the BTA "Codex Runes" (but different items for other raids). The most important factor here is that it allows us to reward hard and elite. In the past, it was common practice for many raids to simply play the raid 20 times on Normal. We don't want that to simply be the obviously best way to get the rewards from that raid. Since we do expect Hard an Elite to take more time and resources (and possible failure chance) compared to Normal, those difficulties should be more rewarding than Normal, as well.

20th lists are not ideal in terms of allowing players to play content in a way that is engages and challenges them. We know many players want to be challenged, but feel that method is "playing wrong" if they could get the same rewards faster by not being challenged.


Is it no 20th list for any of the new raids or just shroud? If it's the other 2 as well can we have an option where we turn in one of the raid armors + x codex pages and can turn it into a different armor from the raid? With so many different armors I can see the lottery system being really frustrating with no end in sight if we can't get a 20th list to choose the one we actually want.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I agree with this 100%. Shroud was successful for the reasons stated above... But if they can't fix duping, then they may not be able to allow unbound ingrediants.


With it: you can have an economy item (tradable ings) without it you can't. With it people re-run shroud several times on EVERY alt, and they may run it even more to sell ings, without it they only need run shroud on 1 character and will never repeat it for extra ings because they can't be sold.

yes - I would prefer if the ingredients were unbound, and include a btc/bta element.

[Aletys]

Someone in the General DDO Discussion section has stated that the Codex Runes will expire after a limited time (he said 3 months). Is this for real? This would be very disturbing if true.

[Severlin]

Because of dupers, I'd imagine.

The DDO player base has had, for a while, a dedicated group that pursues methods to duplicate items or ways to re-use items. We've worked hard to close these loop holes so these activities don't ruin the economy or devalue the accomplishments of our general player base and we are constantly vigilant for the methods by which these exploits might be accomplished.

I get that it can be fun to occasionally use cheat codes or use a godmode to rampage through a game, particularly when it is single player and no one's experience is being ruined. It's not cool, however, or good for the game when those activities spill into the rest of the game and ruin the fun for people legitimately playing the game. It devalues their accomplishments and thus their experiences in the game and destroys any sense of economy and fair play. This is why we have pursued and worked to eliminate these exploits.

This update represents our ongoing efforts to bring an end game back for players who feel it has been lacking. The players who enjoy that have made it clear that our normal content updates are consumed too rapidly to "count" as a true end game. We are introducing systems to satisfy players who want a deep and satisfying progression and reward system that will allow them to have goals for quite some time. If this update is ruined by exploits or methods to circumvent the content it will ruin the fun for all of those people that are looking for that long term end game play.

Our design goals are currently focused on end game play more so than game economy. This is why we have designed the system to keep the ingredients, at least initially, as bound to account. This allows us to track the accumulation of ingredients and items and acts to mitigate the collateral damage of potential exploits. This still allows players to move ingredients to alternate characters that need them, while acting as a preventive measure against new or previously unknown (by us) methods of duplication.

Sev~

[jalont]

Our design goals are currently focused on end game play more so than game economy. This is why we have designed the system to keep the ingredients, at least initially, as bound to account. This allows us to track the accumulation of ingredients and items and acts to mitigate the collateral damage of potential exploits. This still allows players to move ingredients to alternate characters that need them, while acting as a preventive measure against new or previously unknown (by us) methods of duplication.

Sev~

A robust economy will bring people into endgame content that won't bother with it otherwise. Very few people are going to sit around in the upper levels and grind raids, meaning they'll likely just avoid those raids altogether. If you have something for them to trade into something else that they'll use, they'll jump into those raids when they can, providing the people that wish to grind those raids with enough players to fill groups. This choice to make everything bound shrinks the endgame player base considerably.

[UurlockYgmeov]

someone in the general ddo discussion section has stated that the codex runes will expire after a limited time (he said 3 months). Is this for real? This would be very disturbing if true.

no.


very no.

[WiseFreelancer]

The rune system as an alternative to 20ths is a great step forward, very happy with it.

Back to greensteel - combining two previous pieces of feedback into a new one: the lack of normal augment slots hurts non-casters who want/need spellpower. Decent non-weapon items with spellpower on them are rare and often raid-based. An easy way to get a bit of spellpower without using actual caster weapons is to use a red slot. This is a dps sacrifice (it could have been a dr breaker or a damage effect) but often worth it. You can't do this with epic greensteel. This isn't a big deal if you have a second weapon slot to put the augment on (swf/twf/shield users) but is harder on two-handed fighters and ranged toons, who already get the benefit of fewer effects.

I bring this up because last update revamped arcane archers, with dev comments about keeping AA gearing in mind in future. This update, not so helpful to them.

And yes, you can use a Tier 1 slot. Unless the spellpower you want is Light/Repair/Force.

[Systern]

No. It cannot be done in that manner (at least, not entirely).

We're willing to hear suggestions, but the following requirements must be met:

Players cannot have all available ingredients before new quest(s) using those ingredients come out. Update 29 would almost automatically be a failure if nearly everyone had fully upgraded Legendary Green Steel the day it released.
Playing each quest pack needs to be incentivized. While we respect that players would something like to just play whatever quest they want, playing Haverdasher again and again should not give access to Thunderforged, Green Steel, and Temple of Elemental Evil items.
Ingredients and Crafting generally exists to make life easier and less frustrating, not harder. We absolutely could just have each and every augment from Legendary Green Steel drop as rewards in the Shroud (tier 1s where tier 1 ingredients drop, tier 3s only in the end chest, etc.), and blanks could just randomly appear in the end chest. But with 40+ different blanks and 600+ different augments, the chance of getting what you want is extremely low. This would entirely eliminate all LGS ingredients, and be far less fun and engaging and probably frustrating.


We've tried to retain much of the flavor and possibilities of Heroic Green Steel while reducing complexity. There are dozens of ingredients from Heroic Green Steel that we've chosen to not carry over to Legendary (including entire tiers of ingredients: Chipmunk Funk etc. x5, Tapers etc. x~12, 5 Shavarath Stones + 1 Signet Stone, dead power cells, the need to charge dead power cells, "empty" shards). We're aware players aren't always keenly interested in lots of ingredients.



What players want is some commonality. As for requirement #1, I understand that there should be 1-3 maguffins per pack to search for, but there's some commonality between them all.

An analogy for example:

Your pantry has these staple ingredients: Milk, flour, sugar, eggs, oil.
You get Vale of Twilight, and can now go get chocolate out of the raid. Combining that with your staple ingredients and you get brownies!
You get Haunted Halls, and can now get Dill. You can now make tasty breakfast omelets.
Get inspired quarter, and you get... rennet and tomatoes. You can now make cheese.... and pizza!
And no matter what you cook, you have to pay the gas bill, so each recipe includes <some> plat.


AFK for dinner.



But you see the point: there's commonality; there's a shared pool. There's running content that indirectly progresses your goals by increasing the staples - You're at least getting milk and eggs by pugging vons or sands and not worrying that you're not getting baking, dutched, bittersweet, Ghiardelli, milk, and 60 other types of chocolate I can't think of names for; from Vale.

The cake is the incentive to run the pack. The chocolate is the access-control to ensure purchase of content. The milk/eggs/plat are the foundation of the economy so that things don't go entirely obsolete. The system then starts to regulate itself. Market forces. yadda yadda.


Players: "There's too much plat in the game. Inflation is nuts."
Turbine: "We'll stop making content that uses it and make this instead: epic tokens "
Players: "There's too many tokens in the game. Not enough ways to spend them"
Turbine: "We'll stop making content that uses that and make this instead: commendations of valor"
Players: "There's too many commendations of valor in the game. Not enough ways to spend them"
Turbine: "We'll stop making content that uses that and make this instead: commendations of heroism"
Players: "There's too many commendations in the game. Not enough ways to spend them"
Turbine: "We'll stop making content that uses that and make this instead: astral shards"
Players: "Umm astral shards? **** dupers and cheapskates refusing to buy them"
Turbine: "We'll stop making content that uses that and make this instead: dwarven ingots"
Players: "There's too many collectables in the game. Not enough ways to spend them"
Turbine: "We'll set absurdly high, unsustainable prices on augments to encourage you to buy them from the store instead."



Do you see the problem with this cycle? Instead of adding more outlets for plat, you make a new currency/ingredient each time. Repeating the same mistake and running into the same problem over and over again.

[ViolentEnd]

We've worked hard to close these loop holes so these activities don't ruin the economy ...


Our design goals are currently focused on end game play more so than game economy. This is why we have designed the system to keep the ingredients, at least initially, as bound to account. This allows us to track the accumulation of ingredients and items and acts to mitigate the collateral damage of potential exploits. This still allows players to move ingredients to alternate characters that need them, while acting as a preventive measure against new or previously unknown (by us) methods of duplication.

Sev~

I have a few opinions on this strategy.

First of all, there is no economy to speak of these days, primarily due to everything new being bound.

Second, the market was/is flooded with stuff that was duped in the past, but that cat is long out of the bag. Without being too judgmental, I think that could have been nipped in the bud before the apocalyptic damage was done, but that is in the past, and I choose to look forward.

Third, if those "loop-holes" are now closed, then new, unbound ingredients/items/whatever are a positive addition that might help to start the revival of a once good, if not thriving, economy.

Fourth, if you can "track the accumulation of ingredients and items ... to mitigate the collateral damage of potential exploits", then you can swiftly, and with "extreme prejudice", prosecute those that dupe anyways.


In my opinion, with everything being bound, you are not hurting the dupers so much as the every-day players that are part of any sort of community. Communities of players (i.e. guilds) benefit from being able to trade between accounts, guildmates, etc. By just allowing "players to move ingredients to alternate characters that need them", one is encouraged (forced) to hoard mats for potential future use. In the original Shroud, I remember a great sense of community in my guild as we were all trying to get our guildmates equipped with their first greensteel item.

In my guild, we actively try to help one another. In the case of crafting materials, those guild members that play a lot are invariably going to end up with more of certain types of mats than they use, and eventually, more of any type of mats than they will ever need. When our more casual members are crafting something and are short of a specific type of something, we, as a community, try to help them as best we can. With this new strategy, our only available response is "sorry, I have 25 of those that I would love to help you with, but instead, we need to organize a raid party to grind out one small infernal chain".

Anyways, that's how I feel. I have been on both sides of the conversation, and it is not a ton of fun either way.

On a related note, having everything bound, again, in my experience, decreases the replayability of quests and raids. If I have everything I "want/need" from a quest pack, and cannot trade anything new I find (outside of passing within the chests), I am much less likely to rerun that quest/pack/raid. The sense of excitement is greatly reduced when there is, literally, no gain to be had.

[UurlockYgmeov]

The DDO player base has had, for a while, a dedicated group that pursues methods to duplicate items or ways to re-use items. We've worked hard to close these loop holes so these activities don't ruin the economy or devalue the accomplishments of our general player base and we are constantly vigilant for the methods by which these exploits might be accomplished.

I get that it can be fun to occasionally use cheat codes or use a godmode to rampage through a game, particularly when it is single player and no one's experience is being ruined. It's not cool, however, or good for the game when those activities spill into the rest of the game and ruin the fun for people legitimately playing the game. It devalues their accomplishments and thus their experiences in the game and destroys any sense of economy and fair play. This is why we have pursued and worked to eliminate these exploits.

This update represents our ongoing efforts to bring an end game back for players who feel it has been lacking. The players who enjoy that have made it clear that our normal content updates are consumed too rapidly to "count" as a true end game. We are introducing systems to satisfy players who want a deep and satisfying progression and reward system that will allow them to have goals for quite some time. If this update is ruined by exploits or methods to circumvent the content it will ruin the fun for all of those people that are looking for that long term end game play.

Our design goals are currently focused on end game play more so than game economy. This is why we have designed the system to keep the ingredients, at least initially, as bound to account. This allows us to track the accumulation of ingredients and items and acts to mitigate the collateral damage of potential exploits. This still allows players to move ingredients to alternate characters that need them, while acting as a preventive measure against new or previously unknown (by us) methods of duplication.

Sev~ — emphasis added


well said. also doesn't preclude the change to unbound of LGS mats in the future.

[Atremus]

never mind saw the thread in general in drop rates... Reading that now

[CThruTheEgo]

The DDO player base has had, for a while, a dedicated group that pursues methods to duplicate items or ways to re-use items. We've worked hard to close these loop holes so these activities don't ruin the economy or devalue the accomplishments of our general player base and we are constantly vigilant for the methods by which these exploits might be accomplished.

I get that it can be fun to occasionally use cheat codes or use a godmode to rampage through a game, particularly when it is single player and no one's experience is being ruined. It's not cool, however, or good for the game when those activities spill into the rest of the game and ruin the fun for people legitimately playing the game. It devalues their accomplishments and thus their experiences in the game and destroys any sense of economy and fair play. This is why we have pursued and worked to eliminate these exploits.

This update represents our ongoing efforts to bring an end game back for players who feel it has been lacking. The players who enjoy that have made it clear that our normal content updates are consumed too rapidly to "count" as a true end game. We are introducing systems to satisfy players who want a deep and satisfying progression and reward system that will allow them to have goals for quite some time. If this update is ruined by exploits or methods to circumvent the content it will ruin the fun for all of those people that are looking for that long term end game play.

Our design goals are currently focused on end game play more so than game economy. This is why we have designed the system to keep the ingredients, at least initially, as bound to account. This allows us to track the accumulation of ingredients and items and acts to mitigate the collateral damage of potential exploits. This still allows players to move ingredients to alternate characters that need them, while acting as a preventive measure against new or previously unknown (by us) methods of duplication.

Sev~

I would be able to understand and agree with this, if it weren't for the fact that the exploits of some time ago were initially pointed out to Turbine on Lamannia and nothing was done or said about it. They were then allowed to go live, pointed out to Turbine again once they were on live, and nothing was done or said about it. They were then allowed to continue for months but were only known to a few at that time. The masses were eventually informed about how to perform the exploits on "the forums which shall not be named," and still nothing was done or said about it. This was allowed to continue for months until the market was literally flooded with duped items to the point that you couldn't buy anything from the auction/shard houses that went into a bag without it almost certainly being a duped item. Then after the market was completely and totally ruined, only then did Turbine actually do something about it. The end result is that Turbine is continuously implementing mechanics which inconvenience all players because they chose not act for so long and allowed the situation to get so out of hand.

I don't recall who was at Turbine during that time Sev, and I'm not trying to point fingers. I'm pretty sure you were not in charge then. Nevertheless, Turbine played a huge role in the whole situation because of their failure to act sooner than they did. So I don't understand why "extreme prejudice" was not exercised against Turbine and instead continues to be exercised against the entire playerbase. I've never seen any recognition by anyone from Turbine for their responsibility in the duping debacle, and I'd be able to accept reasons like those you mention above a bit more easily if there were some acknowledgement of Turbine's mistake. I don't intend for this post to sound accusatory, but I can't stand these excuses you all come up with to explain why we should all be inconvenienced when Turbine shares a great deal of responsibility for the duping debacle and has never even acknowledged that.

Make the base ingredients unbound just like heroic greensteel and if duping becomes an issue, do something about it immediately, not nine months down the road.

[hunzi2010]

A robust economy will bring people into endgame content that won't bother with it otherwise. Very few people are going to sit around in the upper levels and grind raids, meaning they'll likely just avoid those raids altogether. If you have something for them to trade into something else that they'll use, they'll jump into those raids when they can, providing the people that wish to grind those raids with enough players to fill groups. This choice to make everything bound shrinks the endgame player base considerably.

I don't believe so.

Like I have said in the past DDO caters for more of a mature player design.
the people winging are the young ones that are free to play.
Personally as I have stated before I DO NOT support the shard exchange and if there is a green steel blank, augment, potion or anything like this that I need I buy the store ones with my tp and refuse to give anyone my money to ASAH.
its when people get an item and them post it up for 2500-5000 shards it becomes ridiculous.
I aint paying literally 100.00 real dollars for an item, you can stick that where the sun don't shine.
this is why the economy is bad. greed.....
if you want to get an economy working again then my suggestion 3 years ago was you can only post an item to a maximum percentage value above the base.
this way there is a cap and the items are then affordable, so this is where supply and demand comes into it. you only want to download the new content and farm like stupid while drops are good then make a killing on the AH. the way that Sev has proposed is what a lot of fellow ingame chit chat is agreeing to and the feedback on the forums. people prefer BTA. and it works too.
again sorry guys and gals who are free to play, apologies as I am not intending to offend anyone, I just don't understand when I look on the shard exchange that items are so so so expensive...
that's my 2 shards...lol
thanks everyone.

[Aletys]

I don't believe so.

Like I have said in the past DDO caters for more of a mature player design.
the people winging are the young ones that are free to play.
Personally as I have stated before I DO NOT support the shard exchange and if there is a green steel blank, augment, potion or anything like this that I need I buy the store ones with my tp and refuse to give anyone my money to ASAH.
its when people get an item and them post it up for 2500-5000 shards it becomes ridiculous.
I aint paying literally 100.00 real dollars for an item, you can stick that where the sun don't shine.
this is why the economy is bad. greed.....
if you want to get an economy working again then my suggestion 3 years ago was you can only post an item to a maximum percentage value above the base.
this way there is a cap and the items are then affordable, so this is where supply and demand comes into it. you only want to download the new content and farm like stupid while drops are good then make a killing on the AH. the way that Sev has proposed is what a lot of fellow ingame chit chat is agreeing to and the feedback on the forums. people prefer BTA. and it works too.
again sorry guys and gals who are free to play, apologies as I am not intending to offend anyone, I just don't understand when I look on the shard exchange that items are so so so expensive...
that's my 2 shards...lol
thanks everyone.

Sorry, can't agree with you. Well, I can that there are absurd prices shard AH sometimes, but, frankly, I very much doubt that anyone actually pays those. Just because someone posts a ridiculous price for something does not mean anyone is going to be silly enough to pay it. Beyond that, stuff is worth what someone is willing to pay. Your suggestion would just mean there would be even less stuff available on the AH's.

As far as BTA vs. BTC vs. unbound, I prefer unbound to the other two, and BTA to BTC for obvious reasons. But I see no reason why mats should be bound at all, except for a few such as heroic greensteel shards. The rest should be unbound. It will make possible guildies helping each other, encourage folks to farm the stuff, etc. Right now, everything I'm hearing on what is planned is just making me not want to bother to run the new content at all.

[Bingobong]

Agreed, Varg this is a seemingly minor but vital point: GS has longevity partially because of the binding status of shards... it allows ings to be freely traded but characters must actually do shroud to make items (because of the BTC shards of power).

One of the very reasons that Heroic Shroud has had such longevity and LFM filling potential is the fact that EVERYONE needs mutliple shards of power/Great power/Supreme power.

It's not a minor point, it's the lynchpin of the system. The keystone... if you remove it you subtly break the formula that lead to the original success.

With it: you can have an economy item (tradable ings) without it you can't. With it people re-run shroud several times on EVERY alt, and they may run it even more to sell ings, without it they only need run shroud on 1 character and will never repeat it for extra ings because they can't be sold.

^This. The devs really need to read this post. Their current approach breaks the very thing that gives the shroud its longevity.

There's an old saying: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Add new content and upgrade items to legendary levels, but leave the current mat system in place ... keep BTC shards and leave mats tradable.

[EllisDee37]

We're more than happy for players to compare the tiered heroic weapon effects to the ones you guys have seen in Legendary Green Steel so far. They're quite directly inspired with few major design changes, other than the numbers and bonus types (which we've generally made much kinder - many effects in Heroic Green Steel used the same bonus type for all three tiers for the same stats, so only the best would apply).Non-stacking Heroic Green Steel effects used to stack. Changes to underlying game mechanics have progressively nerfed greensteel effects, like for example spell power.

When Heroic Green Steel was first introduced, offhand I'd say that every single effect stacked with every other effect. This is more of an idle musing than a complaint, though.

[Bingobong]

The DDO player base has had, for a while, a dedicated group that pursues methods to duplicate items or ways to re-use items. We've worked hard to close these loop holes so these activities don't ruin the economy or devalue the accomplishments of our general player base and we are constantly vigilant for the methods by which these exploits might be accomplished.

I get that it can be fun to occasionally use cheat codes or use a godmode to rampage through a game, particularly when it is single player and no one's experience is being ruined. It's not cool, however, or good for the game when those activities spill into the rest of the game and ruin the fun for people legitimately playing the game. It devalues their accomplishments and thus their experiences in the game and destroys any sense of economy and fair play. This is why we have pursued and worked to eliminate these exploits.

This update represents our ongoing efforts to bring an end game back for players who feel it has been lacking. The players who enjoy that have made it clear that our normal content updates are consumed too rapidly to "count" as a true end game. We are introducing systems to satisfy players who want a deep and satisfying progression and reward system that will allow them to have goals for quite some time. If this update is ruined by exploits or methods to circumvent the content it will ruin the fun for all of those people that are looking for that long term end game play.

Our design goals are currently focused on end game play more so than game economy. This is why we have designed the system to keep the ingredients, at least initially, as bound to account. This allows us to track the accumulation of ingredients and items and acts to mitigate the collateral damage of potential exploits. This still allows players to move ingredients to alternate characters that need them, while acting as a preventive measure against new or previously unknown (by us) methods of duplication.

Sev~

You have over a year (or should I say years) to address this. Making this the reason for breaking a perfect and proven system should not be the way to go. All games have gone through their duping phases, but usually they fix the problems instead of taking the drastic step of making everything untradeable. Things like this just kills the player economy.

Even if you are unable to fix your race condition problems (usually the root cause of duping bugs), you can always use a non-object approach to the problem like a currency system for your tradable mats. So long as you don't have object creation and deletion involved in your transfer, you should have no duping problems.

I personally prefer to see this being pushed out till next year (even though I know you won't lol) and done right than the current proposal. Keep BTC shards and leave mats tradable. Your current approach breaks the very thing that gives the shroud its longevity. The following post explains why :

Agreed, Varg this is a seemingly minor but vital point: GS has longevity partially because of the binding status of shards... it allows ings to be freely traded but characters must actually do shroud to make items (because of the BTC shards of power).

One of the very reasons that Heroic Shroud has had such longevity and LFM filling potential is the fact that EVERYONE needs mutliple shards of power/Great power/Supreme power.

It's not a minor point, it's the lynchpin of the system. The keystone... if you remove it you subtly break the formula that lead to the original success.

With it: you can have an economy item (tradable ings) without it you can't. With it people re-run shroud several times on EVERY alt, and they may run it even more to sell ings, without it they only need run shroud on 1 character and will never repeat it for extra ings because they can't be sold.

[dunklezhan]

This update represents our ongoing efforts to bring an end game back for players who feel it has been lacking. The players who enjoy that have made it clear that our normal content updates are consumed too rapidly to "count" as a true end game. We are introducing systems to satisfy players who want a deep and satisfying progression and reward system that will allow them to have goals for quite some time. If this update is ruined by exploits or methods to circumvent the content it will ruin the fun for all of those people that are looking for that long term end game play.

Sev~

OK so I understand the anti-duping thing, I really do. But I still disagree with not having anything available for trade between players. I appreciate its to stop dupers, but as I'm not one of them the impact to me is simply taking away the trade-with-others minigame. I don't blame you particularly, I blame the dupers for being the reason I can't have nice things... but I wish I understood why this game is so prone to duping that we have to exclude a player driven economy entirely rather than finding some more reliable method to stop the duping. I suspect you do too, I know you don't do these things just to **** me off - but I'm a bit ****ed off anyway.

But also, how can you say the words I quoted above about consuming things too rapidly and still allow raid timer bypass to carry on as they are for end game raids? How does that fit with the design goal above? All that says to me is "people blow through stuff really fast and we daren't deny timers - so the only way to give a raid-loot system longevity is to make it grindy as hell and don't let people help each other except by teaming up to do the raid itself'. Again, I accept the outcome - but I really, really dislike it.

Contributing factors for longevity in terms of 'I've got my loot, I'm done now'*:
-Is there any new loot that's better?
-Drop rate compared to finished product?
-How frequently can I run the raid?
-How easy it is to get any of the new loot without actually running the content?


The first one is in theory easy to control. Its certainly 100% in Turbine's power to control. The second very hard to predict, and you probably expect to tweak over time. The third is fairly straightforward though, surely? If I can run the raid often, I will get loot faster, and I will be done faster.

The last one is a fine balance, like the first one: If I can trade everything, I can buy my loot from the AH, if I can trade nothing I'm going to accumulate a lot of **** I don't need, most likely. The right balance is somewhere in between. I don't really understand for example, why ingredients couldn't be BTA or BTC and the item blanks unbound. Being able to buy blanks just shortcuts the first few runs, but you still need to do those runs to make the augments.



*that is to say: ignoring "fun", which doesn't seem to help keep raids going for some reason or people would still be running Titan and Heroic HoX. I also ignored 'how puggable is it' which is kinda important, but isn't really to do with loot.

[Robbenklopper]

... Handwraps are not included in Legendary Green Steel in Update 29. We wanted to get the revamp of handwrap technology in for Update 29, but that's a fairly massive task and just couldn't be done. We understand this is quite frustrating for some players. ...

Yes ... indeed it is Vargouille! And as you know an "planning" on overwork wraps and Monk at all at some far distant future, its far behind so much, please think again about putting in some "competive" named wraps in the meanwhile (and please drop that "deadly" idea on it and put in something useful like someone else mentioned before).

Thx in advance

[slarden]

You collect Codex Runes (name subject to change) by completing Legendary Shroud.

These are used to craft Blank weapons and equipment, and to deal with the Legendary Taint of Shavarath on Equipment.
You get more Codex Runes on Hard and even more on Elite.
These are BTA.
These might be used as turn-ins for other kinds of rewards (such as you might have found on a 20th reward list).



I have mixed thoughts about the codex runes, but it's mostly positive

Positives
- Encourages running the raids on higher difficulties
- BTA so you aren't punished for switching to a character with specific abilities needed for the raid
- Persists through TR so you don't feel stuck waiting to TR until you hit 20 runs of all the raids
- If the raid doesn't have much of interest for a specific character, it's still worth running to shared runes with other characters

Negatives
- Only one: most people run DOJ EN simply because of lag and it's less forgiving during lag spikes (less likely to lag fail). So if the new raids have the same type or lag it will take longer to get items if most people don't want to run above EN due to lag. If the drop rates are good like DOJ it's fine. If they are bad like MOD it's going to be annoying if the raids are laggy and people are running EN due to lag.

[Robbenklopper]

The DDO player base has had, for a while, a dedicated group that pursues methods to duplicate items or ways to re-use items. We've worked hard to close these loop holes so these activities don't ruin the economy or devalue the accomplishments of our general player base and we are constantly vigilant for the methods by which these exploits might be accomplished.

I get that it can be fun to occasionally use cheat codes or use a godmode to rampage through a game, particularly when it is single player and no one's experience is being ruined. It's not cool, however, or good for the game when those activities spill into the rest of the game and ruin the fun for people legitimately playing the game. It devalues their accomplishments and thus their experiences in the game and destroys any sense of economy and fair play. This is why we have pursued and worked to eliminate these exploits.

This update represents our ongoing efforts to bring an end game back for players who feel it has been lacking. The players who enjoy that have made it clear that our normal content updates are consumed too rapidly to "count" as a true end game. We are introducing systems to satisfy players who want a deep and satisfying progression and reward system that will allow them to have goals for quite some time. If this update is ruined by exploits or methods to circumvent the content it will ruin the fun for all of those people that are looking for that long term end game play.

Our design goals are currently focused on end game play more so than game economy. This is why we have designed the system to keep the ingredients, at least initially, as bound to account. This allows us to track the accumulation of ingredients and items and acts to mitigate the collateral damage of potential exploits. This still allows players to move ingredients to alternate characters that need them, while acting as a preventive measure against new or previously unknown (by us) methods of duplication.

Sev~

Ofc we don´t want any dupers, but please tell me (absolute noob when it´s about programming):
Don´t you have some Kind of "Duper-Police" or Kind of binary-ammount-realtime-comparison-software when values e.g. double out of the blue on accounts? Not comprehensible Increasing stacking numbers of whatever can´t be detected?
It´s not like that everyone and my uncle Bob are doing this, so you guys can know about These "dedicated" People very clearly(?). Then please react.

[slarden]

The DDO player base has had, for a while, a dedicated group that pursues methods to duplicate items or ways to re-use items. We've worked hard to close these loop holes so these activities don't ruin the economy or devalue the accomplishments of our general player base and we are constantly vigilant for the methods by which these exploits might be accomplished.

I get that it can be fun to occasionally use cheat codes or use a godmode to rampage through a game, particularly when it is single player and no one's experience is being ruined. It's not cool, however, or good for the game when those activities spill into the rest of the game and ruin the fun for people legitimately playing the game. It devalues their accomplishments and thus their experiences in the game and destroys any sense of economy and fair play. This is why we have pursued and worked to eliminate these exploits.

This update represents our ongoing efforts to bring an end game back for players who feel it has been lacking. The players who enjoy that have made it clear that our normal content updates are consumed too rapidly to "count" as a true end game. We are introducing systems to satisfy players who want a deep and satisfying progression and reward system that will allow them to have goals for quite some time. If this update is ruined by exploits or methods to circumvent the content it will ruin the fun for all of those people that are looking for that long term end game play.

Our design goals are currently focused on end game play more so than game economy. This is why we have designed the system to keep the ingredients, at least initially, as bound to account. This allows us to track the accumulation of ingredients and items and acts to mitigate the collateral damage of potential exploits. This still allows players to move ingredients to alternate characters that need them, while acting as a preventive measure against new or previously unknown (by us) methods of duplication.

Sev~

I definitely understand this with ingredients and I am ok with all the ingredients/runes being BTA. I think you should throw the people that want to sell items a bone and start having some rare unbound items drop with extremely rare drop rates on LE difficulty. Something like jibbers blade or something with a cool clickie that doesn't add power but will be highly coveted.

[IronClan]

Lets dive deeper into this.

Deathwyrm/FP has a Heroic GS like system
Ingredients are ingots and Scales (Red/Shadow) freely tradable
Shards are Phlogiston's BTC

Fundamentally very similar to GS, except the Shards are more important as you need 30 of them. These items were heavily Duped, obviously, even the Phlogs. Ingots and Scales that flooded the market are still available in big stacks and made building Shadow Armor/Robes and TF blanks and T1's and T2 utterly trivial.

A brand new character can literally build fully upgraded Shadow armor and a T2 TF weapon the first time they set foot on the forge.

Phlogs were mostly contained via binding status, though they were passable in guild chests via additional exploit, this was not widely known and contained to a few raiding guilds on my server.

If everything had been BTA how much less negative impact would there have been on DW and FP? well Fire peaks was much less impacted because at the time no one really had caught on to just how nice Draconic Re-invigoration is on a boosting melee and TWF was much less popular besides so the time was not ripe for it to get popular, it surged in popularity much more recently.

Now FP is run more often than DW, red scales were much less duped. If I had to throw an estimate of popularity out there I'd say DW is kinda like CitW pre-raiders box levels of popularity (in my estimation) which is to say: you can find one or so most nights. Sometimes not.

With BTA ingots and Scales people would have had to run more DW just to make ShadowGuardian and other popular Shadowscale. Just to make T0 T1 and T2 TF weapons... With Unbound they have all become completely trivial and have IMO worsened the game for EVERYONE. IMO it's a good thing to phase TF out with LGS, perhaps in the future they can improve TF and add some new BTA ingredients to the raids to rejuvenate the content.

So despite preferring BTC shards and unbound Ings of the Heroic GS system; I can see the logic in making it all bound... it appears this decision was made with forethought and analysis of "lessons learned" I can't fault the Dev's for that.

[Vargouille]

To Access this system, there's a button on the UI that appears even if you don't own the content. That's confusing.

Let's be clear: You are entirely correct that's confusing.

However... one could potentially wonder why a generic Augment UI button would appear in the general inventory panel, even though it's only as yet been announced to be used for new Legendary Green Steel Augments. Someone might suspect LGS may be some kind of first foray for converting augments to a better system, potentially making it easier to create new augments or even just deal with existing ones.

For reasons.

...

Of course, no such plans or timeline for any kind of augments besides Legendary Green Steel been announced, not even teased, so it is true that this presentation undoubtedly looks weird.


Non-stacking Heroic Green Steel effects used to stack. Changes to underlying game mechanics have progressively nerfed greensteel effects, like for example spell power.

When Heroic Green Steel was first introduced, offhand I'd say that every single effect stacked with every other effect. This is more of an idle musing than a complaint, though.

Fair enough! Some of them definitely did change over time.

[madmaxhunter]

They can permanently fix that by making bags btc.

Please no, I have many large ingredient bags from The Twelve. I've been giving them away in Snowy Korthos during TRs to new players as an ambassador of good will thing. If they become BTC I'd just throw them away. Also, on BTA mats, it's nice to keep the bags in the shared bank.

[Nascoe]

Let's be clear: You are entirely correct that's confusing.

However... one could potentially wonder why a generic Augment UI button would appear in the general inventory panel, even though it's only as yet been announced to be used for new Legendary Green Steel Augments. Someone might suspect LGS may be some kind of first foray for converting augments to a better system, potentially making it easier to create new augments or even just deal with existing ones.

For reasons.

...

Of course, no such plans or timeline for any kind of augments besides Legendary Green Steel been announced, not even teased, so it is true that this presentation undoubtedly looks weird.



Fair enough! Some of them definitely did change over time.

Hm, is that a teaser for what Cannith crafting might become??

[Grailhawk]

... no one really had caught on to just how nice Draconic Re-invigoration is on a boosting melee and TWF was much less popular besides so the time was not ripe for it to get popular, it surged in popularity much more recently.

SWF + Orb was doing this a long time ago. You are behind on the meta. We have been talking about this in guild since 2014 (U22) when SWF bards could make use of this better TWF even.

[Cordovan]

I've deleted a couple of posts that began to veer this discussion into a personality conflict. It's all right if you disagree with our plans (or disagree with those who disagree with it), but don't make it personal.

One of the factors that led us to make this decision was the effort by previous duplication exploit users to flood the economy with unbound, duplicated items, which not only impacted the economy, but made it far more difficult to mitigate. By starting off with these ingredients Bound to Account, we have more ability to respond should something unexpected happen. That's not to say that these items necessarily need to remain Bound to Account forever; just that when introducing something like Legendary Green Steel, it makes sense to err on the side of caution.

[SableShadow]

not even teased

"Until now." Cue Queen.
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/91/80/5d/91805dafca5ff94e90528d426671eb2e.jpg

[UurlockYgmeov]

"Until now." Cue Queen.
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/91/80/5d/91805dafca5ff94e90528d426671eb2e.jpg

Glad I wasn't the only one who saw this.... :)

[sirgog]

I've deleted a couple of posts that began to veer this discussion into a personality conflict. It's all right if you disagree with our plans (or disagree with those who disagree with it), but don't make it personal.

One of the factors that led us to make this decision was the effort by previous duplication exploit users to flood the economy with unbound, duplicated items, which not only impacted the economy, but made it far more difficult to mitigate. By starting off with these ingredients Bound to Account, we have more ability to respond should something unexpected happen. That's not to say that these items necessarily need to remain Bound to Account forever; just that when introducing something like Legendary Green Steel, it makes sense to err on the side of caution.

You know what would have dealt with the duping exploits?

A gamewide announcement (on the launcher, in game and on the forums) saying

"We have become aware of an item duplication exploit. If you deliberately use this your account will be permanently banned. If you accidentally duplicate an item, please advise a GM and you will not be punished. If you have deliberately used this exploit in the past, this is a one-time offer for an amnesty - advise a GM and you will not be banned."

This is how EVE Online handles exploits and it works well. Don't try to cover up that an exploit is happening because there are other forums Turbine do not control where they are discussed widely.

This is much more effective than binding everything.

[Michaelaz2]

Now if we could only get you devs to fix the server side lag, to wipe in the new raid DOTJ because of lag due to warlocks auras,insert any other myth, is unacceptable.
Seems its all about pushing out yet another update without actually addressing current issues. Its not lack of updates why players are leaving, its not addressing the current issues or testing them thoroughly on Lamania for more than 5 days.



Legendary Shroud and Legendary Green Steel (LGS) are coming! This post is about the broad, general structure of Legendary Green Steel crafting.

As many players know, Green Steel is a wide-reaching, complex crafting system. Some of these concepts here are fairly high level and abstract. This is not a post where every possible Green Steel effect is going to be listed. We're going to explain how it works on a high level, and a bit about how we're expecting it to be different from heroic (though you shouldn't need to know that process in detail to understand most of this post!)

Some of the design goals driving choices below include simplification and reducing error as much as possible, while some relate to technical challenges in such a large system where we are adding Augments.


High Level Concepts
Legendary Green Steel is a crafting system by which you collect various ingredients, craft weapons of nearly any kind, or accessory/equipment slots (but not armor, and some equipment slots are missing), and can upgrade those items several times to make them stronger.

Here's what you do:



Play Update 29 quests & raids, collecting ingredients. This includes all 3 raids - yes, Legendary Hound of Xoriat and Legendary Tempest Spine provide indirect access to Legendary Green Steel ingredients. (There's some extra steps here because we don't want to simply drop Devil Scales for players who might not even own the Vale and aren't going to be crafting LGS.) We currently plan for Tier 1 and Tier 2 ingredients to be found in various quests. Tier 3 ingredients will only drop in the Shroud.
Craft "blank" weapons and equipment. This will use crafting materials primarily from Shroud end-chests.
Craft Legendary Green Steel Augments (LGSA).

Each blank LGS item has 4 Green Steel Augment Slots. These slots cannot hold any augments that exist in Update 28 or earlier, but instead hold various kinds of Legendary Green Steel augments crafted from LGS ingredients. (These slots only hold Green Steel Augments, and these Green Steel Augments only go in these slots, in other words.)
There will be hundreds of different possible augments. There's a few different ways to count them, and some are definitely similar to one another, but depending on how you count them there are between ~120 and ~600 augments (depending on what you consider "different" augments - the lower number is ).



From a high level, that's Legendary Green Steel.

Legendary Green Steel Augments?
These are a new type of Augments, which are not compatible nor interchangeable with existing Augments and slots.

Each LGS blank has 4 slots: Tiers 1,2,3, plus an "Active" slot. Each tiered slot can hold an augment of the appropriate tier (crafted from ingredients), and the active slot can hold one augment which adds a "clicky" active ability to the item.

You can create and slot your Augments in any order. If you want to start with Tier 3, or just put in a an Active, go for it.

Weapons and Equipment (sometimes called "Accessories") have different tiered Augment slots. When you craft an augment, you might be specifically making a Tier 2 Weapon Air Dominion Ethereal augment, for instance. There is a similar augment for Equipment, but which produces a different effect than the weapon version, much like Heroic Green Steel. However, the Active slot is the same for weapons and equipment. Any active can be slotted into either weapons or equipment.

These Green Steel Augments will fit into existing Augment bags.

We expect to offer an ‘extractor’ type option in the Store specifically for these Green Steel Augments in the event that you want to replace a slot but don’t want to lose the augment you made.

Basic Information


Minimum Level: All LGS items, weapons and equipment, are currently planned to be minimum level 26.
Weapons have a base 5[W] damage.
There is no 20th reward list for Legendary raids.
You collect Codex Runes (name subject to change) by completing Legendary Shroud.

These are used to craft Blank weapons and equipment, and to deal with the Legendary Taint of Shavarath on Equipment.
You get more Codex Runes on Hard and even more on Elite.
These are BTA.
These might be used as turn-ins for other kinds of rewards (such as you might have found on a 20th reward list).


You collect Legendary tiered ingredients that are highly analogous to the tiered ingredients in Heroic Green Steel.

By "tiered", we mean things like Legendary Small Devil Scales, Legendary Medium Gnawed Bones, and Legendary Large Length of Infernal Chains.
There are six different ingredients per tier (just like Heroic).
These ingredients are BTA.


Blanks are the initial Weapons and Equipment with empty Augment slots.

These are created from Codex Runes at the Altar of Fecundity in Meridia. This is the exact same eldritch crafting device used for Heroic Green Steel. This one device has some of the recipes used for both Heroic and Legendary Green Steel.
Blanks are ML:26, and BTC. Legendary Green Steel items don't change minimum level nor binding status.


Crafting Legendary Green Steel Augments

These are created at three different tiers of new legendary altars within the Shroud, similar to Heroic Green Steel.
First you construct Focuses, Essences, and Gems at these altars, then combine those to create Augments. (This process is very similar to crafting Heroic Green Steel Shards.)
Legendary Green Steel Focuses, Essences, Gems, and Augments are BTA.
These Augments use a new custom UI. They don't behave exactly like existing (u28 and earlier) Augments!


Handwraps are not included in Legendary Green Steel in Update 29. We wanted to get the revamp of handwrap technology in for Update 29, but that's a fairly massive task and just couldn't be done. We understand this is quite frustrating for some players.



Deeper Details & Similarities and Difference from Heroic
The general structure is broadly similar to Heroic Green Steel.

Many Legendary Augments are similar to Heroic Shards

Our current plan is to that most of the tiered effects of Legendary Augments be similar in nature to the effects found in Heroic Shards, scaled up to Legendary potency. Bonuses here include things like spell powers, Wizardry, hitpoints, Exceptional bonuses to ability scores, saving throws, and bonuses to "Charisma" skills (for example), Insightful ability scores, Inherent elemental resist, etc. These are all kinds of bonuses currently accessible Heroic Green Steel tiered shards.

Barter Shop style UI
Like most modern crafting systems, you can see all the recipes. Just like Heroic Green Steel is like now, since my first task years ago converting the old mystery system to the new system.

Weapon & Equipment Augments
In Heroic, you make a single shard and apply it to either a weapon or equipment (aka: accessory), getting a different effect depending on which you put it in. Due to the use of Augments here, and lacking a desire to be highly mysterious, there are separate Augments for Weapons vs. Accessories. When you make a Tier 1 Fire Dominion Ethereal augment, you also choose if you are making a weapon or equipment augment, which can tell you exactly what it's going to do, unlike Heroic Green Steel (since the Shard could have been put into either a Weapon or Equipment.)

Tier 2 Active / Clicky / "Bonus" effects
Tier 1,2,3 Augments are very similar to Heroic shards of the same tiers. Instead of crafting a tier 3 Magma shard and applying it to your tier 2 weapon, you just craft a tier 3 Magma Weapon Augment and slot it into your weapon (possibly crushing the existing augment to bits). You don't have to go through the tiers in ascending order.

Those familiar with Heroic GS and paying close attention may notice the Active slot - in Heroic, this was generally granted by a "tier 2 Bonus Effect" (as it was sometimes known), which you got by choosing the appropriate Tier 1 and Tier 2 focuses - such as tier 1 Fire and tier 2 Positive (Radiance), or Fire and Earth (Magma), or even Fire and Fire (Aspect of Fire). For both design and technical reasons, we're removing the tier 2 Bonus Effects per se. There's no special bonus for what you put into the tier 1 and tier 2 slots (not public, not secret).

However, we're adding the "Active" augment slot so you can still put a clicky in your Green Steel. It will be another option and axis - the choice is independent of all tiered abilities. You pick one clicky no matter what other choices you make - it's not inherently tied to the Focuses you put into tier. These clickies will generally be for new abilities; they won't just be Heroic Green Steel effects (scaled up or otherwise), though we're still considering if some of the Heroic active abilities are so desirable that we should replicate them in Legendary.

Active slots will be identical between weapons and equipment. Whatever Active Augment you make, it can be slotted into either weapon or equipment.

We realize some items are likely to end up with nothing but a clicky on them. That's OK. We'll try to be careful with the cost of clickies with this in mind.

Tier 3 Augments
This may make more sense for those familiar with Heroic Green Steel.


Tier 3 Augments are always created with two Focuses, a Primary and Secondary (in addition to an Essence and Gem, like Heroic Green Steel). So you might make a tier 3 Fire earth Dominion Material Augment, for instance (aka: Magma).
There are no single-focus tier 3 Augments. You can make a Fire Fire tier 3 augment, however.
Unlike Heroic Green Steel, you can pick any Focus to be the Primary. This Primary Focus determines which tier 3 effect the augment provides - it doesn't provide both bonuses, only the one from the Primary Focus. (In heroic, there was always a "dominant" Focus. This was fairly restrictive, as it meant you couldn't actually get tier 3 Negative effects except by making a Triple Negative item, because negative was always the 'secondary' Focus - and some elements were similarly over-represented while others were difficult to get.) This increases the number of options by 6x - so the 36 tier 1 & 2 shards becomes 216 tier 3 Augments (for each of Weapons and Equipment).
To re-iterate, there's nothing in Legendary like a "single affinity shard". Everything is a Dual Shard. The heroic method of creating Dual Shards (which were most player's goal!) were a frequent source of confusion, error, and frustration. While having 216 Weapon and 216 Equipment tier 3 Shards is still complex, we hope that this method helps make the complexity both more obvious (so you know what to watch for!) and a bit more comprehensible, and most of all far less error prone. (The common, and costly, mistake of applying one tier 3 heroic shard before trying to add a second tier 3 heroic shard is impossible in Legendary.)


Tier 3 "Bonus" Effects etc.
This flavor & to an extent "mystery" is retained. This is what the Primary & Secondary focuses in tier 3 are about - the secondary focus only really matters for this. Based on your slotted Augments, you receive a bonus effect. The bonus effect is only shows up after putting the augments in, since it depends on combinations of all three tiers of augments.

Tier 3 Bonus Effects may or may not be similar to Heroic versions (scaled up to higher numbers if so). Some of this may depend on time, but we'd like to be more creative here - rather than in the normal Tiered effects, which are mostly well suited for simply coming up into Legendary with higher value numbers.

Legendary Taint of Shavarath
It's real, and painful if you equip multiple pieces of Legendary Green Steel Equipment. Exact methods for dealing with it will be somewhat analogous to heroic. Details to come later.

Other Heroic Ingredients
Many ingredients from Heroic are not making the transition to Legendary. This includes most of the blank-creation ingredients such as Chipmunk Funk, Tapers, Shavarath Stones, and Signet Stones. They didn't really fit the model for Legendary as they did for heroic Vale, and in many ways were a source of confusion and unnecessary complexity.




Thanks for reading!

We're happy to hear your feedback on anything here. Or really about a whole ton of things relating to Legendary Green Steel. It's a big complex system. We expect questions, comments, feedback, concerns, etc.

There will be some more details upcoming, including what you can expect to see on Lamannia soon (which is not everything!)

[Iriale]

Stats or deadly on weapons not, please. Move them to accesories. Caster or melee, you need swap weapons and you are screwed if you have an important stat as these on weapons.

Stats on weapons was a mistake on the old greensteel.

[IronClan]

SWF + Orb was doing this a long time ago. You are behind on the meta. We have been talking about this in guild since 2014 (U22) when SWF bards could make use of this better TWF even.

And yet Fire peaks only just had the resurgence in popularity supporting everything I said and having very little to do with the much less popular and not at all recent usefulness with SWF. Nit pick Nit picked. IMO you are the one who's behind on the Meta. I have a SWF Paladin that TR'red into a SWF barb that has already TRéd into a different non SWF build that ran in LD, and has a more than year old Draconic re-invigoration orb collecting dust. I literally am the person who got the original SWF implementation nerfed (not intentionally) by talking about my Orb SWF paladin on the 2014 PC. right after SWF was put in. I accidentally let it slip that Shield feats were applying double-strike to Orb's. What you're talking about is 3 times removed from the current meta, and so long in my rear view mirror that you sound hopelessly behind. Are SWF's also interested in fire phlogs, and were first to be interested? Of course. TWF becoming FOTM however is why FP is currently very well run, much moreso at least on my server than it was 6 months ago.

[Vargouille]

Lamannia the Third (December 10)


Equipment Augments are in and ready for review.
Active Augments are alpha ready for review.
A small slice of "bonus combo effects" are in and ready for testing. This is intentionally a small slice of what's expected to be in Legendary Green Steel to check on functionality, not a full reveal of all possible combos.

We recommend building a weapon with all Fire focuses, and then changing it to have two Fire focuses and two Air focuses (contained in the augments slotted into that weapon).
Really, those are the only two combos you'll be able to do in this Lamannia. Don't spend a lot of time hunting for other stuff!


A number of missing or incorrect elements have been fixed from previous Lamannia. This includes at least a pass on base stats on the items (as mentioned earlier the critical profiles and base damage were incorrect), and addition of Commendations of Valor to crafting.
All weapon models (art) for Legendary Green Steel are now in.
It is possible to extract a Legendary Green Steel Augment, using a Legendary Green Steel Augment Extractor. These will be available in the store. For this Lamannia, we're trying to be online and giving them out or dropping them on the floor of the testdojo.
As always, numbers and exact effects highly subject to change. We welcome your feedback on what is too high, too low, if some Tier 1 effects should be swapped with Tier 3, etc. (To an extent we've focused on getting new tech out to you guys for review first!)

[SableShadow]

Lamannia the Third (December 10)

weapon models[/B] (art) for Legendary Green Steel are now in.


Shweeeeeeet! I've been wanting to check to see if they're going to replace my Assassin's Kiss cosmetic ... :D

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/17/article-1268821132722-08C0187D000005DC-872498_636x389.jpg

[xTethx]

Lamannia the Third (December 10)


Equipment Augments are in and ready for review.
Active Augments are alpha ready for review.
A small slice of "bonus combo effects" are in and ready for testing. This is intentionally a small slice of what's expected to be in Legendary Green Steel to check on functionality, not a full reveal of all possible combos.

We recommend building a weapon with all Fire focuses, and then changing it to have two Fire focuses and two Air focuses (contained in the augments slotted into that weapon).
Really, those are the only two combos you'll be able to do in this Lamannia. Don't spend a lot of time hunting for other stuff!


A number of missing or incorrect elements have been fixed from previous Lamannia. This includes at least a pass on base stats on the items (as mentioned earlier the critical profiles and base damage were incorrect), and addition of Commendations of Valor to crafting.
All weapon models (art) for Legendary Green Steel are now in.
It is possible to extract a Legendary Green Steel Augment, using a Legendary Green Steel Augment Extractor. These will be available in the store. For this Lamannia, we're trying to be online and giving them out or dropping them on the floor of the testdojo.
As always, numbers and exact effects highly subject to change. We welcome your feedback on what is too high, too low, if some Tier 1 effects should be swapped with Tier 3, etc. (To an extent we've focused on getting new tech out to you guys for review first!)


Would be nice if we actually could slot stuff :)

[Cleanincubus]

Why were Commendations of Valor added as a needed material??? Not everyone has blasted through all Epic content hundreds of times. Some of us are causal players and have never even collected enough to craft one Epic or Iconic Heart of Wood. It's great to build content for high level/skilled players who are bored and want more challenge. But the whole constantly making every single choice based around solely those players is ridiculous. If you've detected that some players have stacks of 10,000's of them wasting space, then make something for them to purchase with them, don't just add it as a requirement for yet another system. This is poorly planned out and unrealistic decision making.



Would be nice if we actually could slot stuff :)

^ Yup, LGS is broken. I can't get any Augments to slot into the scepter I made last preview, nor a new scepter I just made minutes ago. All were newly created augments.

[sjbb87]

I've deleted a couple of posts that began to veer this discussion into a personality conflict. It's all right if you disagree with our plans (or disagree with those who disagree with it), but don't make it personal.

One of the factors that led us to make this decision was the effort by previous duplication exploit users to flood the economy with unbound, duplicated items, which not only impacted the economy, but made it far more difficult to mitigate. By starting off with these ingredients Bound to Account, we have more ability to respond should something unexpected happen. That's not to say that these items necessarily need to remain Bound to Account forever; just that when introducing something like Legendary Green Steel, it makes sense to err on the side of caution.

I believe you should penalize those who cheated, I do not know how to identify if you have ...
But there are many players who played the honest way,
And it penalizes everyone.

[Atremus]

Why add Comms of Valor to LGS?

[TempestAlphaOmega]

Why were Commendations of Valor added as a needed material??? Not everyone has blasted through all Epic content hundreds of times. Some of us are causal players and have never even collected enough to craft one Epic or Iconic Heart of Wood. It's great to build content for high level/skilled players who are bored and want more challenge. But the whole constantly making every single choice based around solely those players is ridiculous. If you've detected that some players have stacks of 10,000's of them wasting space, then make something for them to purchase with them, don't just add it as a requirement for yet another system. This is poorly planned out and unrealistic decision making.

I would rather they made use of Commendations of Valor than created a new item/material that was needed. Now if you are saying they should just eliminate the need for the Coms and whatever slot they fill in the crafting process that is a different issue. Additionally if the number of Coms is just excessive that is also a different issue.

If you are a casual player who has made your way up to the level required to use LGS then you are bound to have some Coms unless you specifically chose not to take them.

[Karadon_II]

Why were Commendations of Valor added as a needed material??? Not everyone has blasted through all Epic content hundreds of times. Some of us are causal players and have never even collected enough to craft one Epic or Iconic Heart of Wood.

I'm also a casual. I've never even been in an EE quest. But if you use 42 Heart Seeds instead of 4200 Comms to make Hearts you will have a lot of them by the time your character is running Eshroud. Just my €0.02.

[Erofen]

I believe you should penalize those who cheated, I do not know how to identify if you have ...
But there are many players who played the honest way,
And it penalizes everyone.
I also find it funny how they blame that on duping then add an ingredient to the crafting that was previously dupable. *sigh*

[knightgf]

Commendations of Valor is a poor choice for crafting Legendary Greensteel Items. CoM's are in high demand with low supply, and the demand for CoM's will be pushed too far if you do this on live. I don't know if you understand that or not, but if you do not, perhaps I can attempt to clarify further why it's a bad choice.

[Vargouille]

FYI: We're investigating an issue with not being able to slot Green Steel Augments into items & weapons.

[Karadon_II]

Commendations of Valor is a poor choice for crafting Legendary Greensteel Items. CoM's are in high demand with low supply, and the demand for CoM's will be pushed too far if you do this on live. I don't know if you understand that or not, but if you do not, perhaps I can attempt to clarify further why it's a bad choice.

From my perspective CoV's are the single most abundant ingredient at epic level, even more than Mysterious Remnants which are not guaranteed. I would like to know why you think the demand will outweigh the supply.

[RD2play]

I like that you added CoV. It was advertised way back as being the spill in endgame crafting, but started to feel like just another abandoned system. So CUDOS to whomever thought of these in time !

[Systern]

Lamannia the Third (December 10)


A number of missing or incorrect elements have been fixed from previous Lamannia. This includes at least a pass on base stats on the items (as mentioned earlier the critical profiles and base damage were incorrect), and addition of Commendations of Valor to crafting.


Thank you for listening.

[Atremus]

100 CoV for the blank. I can live with that.

[Seljuck]

Updated Full List of Legendary Green Steel Effects (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/468457-Full-List-of-Legendary-Green-Steel-Effects?p=5734835&viewfull=1#post5734835)

[Atremus]

As always, numbers and exact effects highly subject to change. We welcome your feedback on what is too high, too low, if some Tier 1 effects should be swapped with Tier 3, etc. (To an extent we've focused on getting new tech out to you guys for review first!)


Spell Point Questions for Varg:

1. Does/Will the Spell Point effect, the Tier 1: 302 spell point shard, stack with existing items? I am curious if this is intended to be a replacement for the existing epic level Power Augments (+100, +200,, 250,) that grant spell points or if this is an additional source of Spell points for caster. I would prefer Legendary GS stacked with power augments (to help in raids where casters dump lots of mana) but I won't cry too hard if they don't

2. Can I propose a different amount for the Spell a point values? My suggestion:

Tier1 - 340 Spell Points
Tier2 - 170 Insight Spell Points
Tier3 - 85 Quality Spell points.

The total for these numbers is 595 spell points. 67 more than what is currently listed.


Edit: Tested the SP Item today, it did not grant 2x the spell points for FvS (assuming Sorcerer as well)

[mikarddo]

With respect to the clicky effects. If the duration is (significantly) longer than heroic GS - and I assume it will be - then displacement looks tempting. If the duration is the same - whats the point? Apart from that I am having a hard time seeing any effects that I would care to make. Maybe +10 stats for truly important fights. These effects need to be much more sexy to have a real appeal and make the raid worth replaying.

Suggestion: Add a 10 min duration "illusion race" clicky (1 charge per shrine) that lets you look like any of the normal playable races in size and appearance while otherwise retaining the characteristics of your normal race. Make one clicky for each race so someone wanting to be able to illusion as any race at will needs to make many different items to do so. If the gear (docent/not docent and other things) does not show up on the race in question simply show something default. *That* would be an interesting clicky imho which should have people making many items without any (or very little) power but mostly fun - and hopefully it should not be overly hard to code either! I would certainly be making a host of these if it was made available.

[Sisma]

FYI: We're investigating an issue with not being able to slot Green Steel Augments into items & weapons.

Ah, was about to ask...

[Vargouille]

With the Lamannia Update 4 that went out just recently, I've personally gone on and slotted a Green Steel Equipment augment today (which I could not do yesterday). Have at it!

[Eldried]

Not sure if it has been commented on before, but why is the tier 1 hps an enhancement bonus???
Its not stacking with False life... I mean I get 58 HP by equiping a full greensteel item....(I have a +40 false life augent)

I get 45 from an old greensteel....


Thats REALLY underwhelming!!!

Make it stack!

[Atremus]

With respect to the clicky effects. If the duration is (significantly) longer than heroic GS - and I assume it will be - then displacement looks tempting.

Duration of the Displacement Augment is 2 Minutes, 2 Charges

Duration of the Radiant Forcefield Augment is 20 seconds, 1 charge.

[noinfo]

What I really dislike so far and where I like TF stuff better is with regards to single caster items vs 2 handed.

TF had at least some small benefit to using a 2 handed item, GS does not seem to have any that I have seen.

I would like to see on 2 handed items some benefit particulary for caster items. Since unlike heroic GS you have slots, would it be possible to put 2 of each level of caster slots on an item? (only having 1 primary set for whatever bonus)

[mikarddo]

Please add Ghostly as an effect that can be added to GS accessories.

[Kompera_Oberon]

A number of missing or incorrect elements have been fixed from previous Lamannia. This includes at least a pass on base stats on the items (as mentioned earlier the critical profiles and base damage were incorrect), and addition of Commendations of Valor to crafting.

I'm confused as to why Commendations of Valor are a part of a new crafting schema. The Night Revels put in place a schema where by older crafting components which might have been illegally duplicated were not allowed. And yet here you are, presenting a brand new crafting system which includes using materials which could have very well been duplicated, and this is for the entirely new U29 content. Don't you realize that you are both laying down the law and also picking it right up again?

It could be read as such:

Night Revels
A) "Whoa! Duplication was bad, and we need to prevent rewarding those players for their illegal actions."
B) "Okay, so how do we do that?"
A) "I know, we'll refuse to use old ingredients and instead we will introduce new ingredients which will also expire over time. That way duplicators will not win!"
B) "Let it be done!"

But now you have the following:

Update 29
A) "Whoa! Duplication was bad, and we need to prevent rewarding those players for their illegal actions."
B) "Okay, so how do we do that?"
A) "I know, we'll use old ingredients which might have been duplicated in our new crafting schema. That way the duplicators will win!"
B) "Um, let it be done?" (Aside to an aid "Hey, didn't we not like this method not too long ago?")

Why is this? Because no matter how you look at it, being able to use duplicated ingredients for a brand new crafting system is far, far worse than worrying about the duplication of ingredients used in a limited time event.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Where are those old players that figured out heroic greensteel? They have more work to do :)

There's more around than one might think. :cool:

I still have a rapier that has an aspect of ice. Haven't touched it years. It worked great on the fire ellie in pt2 of shroud, and ended there. lol

Or the Helm that has raise dead and a dex bonus.

Good times

[bloodnose13]

from what i seen on lammania, stat bonuses (str,con,int.... etc) are locked to weapons only, could you please rethink that? allowing stat items, would have much more wider use than this, i personaly dislike to have stat bonuses on swapables (weapons, shields, trinkets, items that i often swap around) its often hard to squeeze effects in on items around items haveing actual stat bonus we need, this way it would be possible to create item in the exact slot with exactly stat bonuses we need.

second question is, will there be some greensteel jewelry kit for removal of those auguments? it would allow easier tinkering ability, if the auguments would be bta we could remove the one we dont need anymore and move it to other character for example? just a thought.

[EllisDee37]

from what i seen on lammania, stat bonuses (str,con,int.... etc) are locked to weapons only, could you please rethink that? allowing stat items, would have much more wider use than this, i personaly dislike to have stat bonuses on swapables (weapons, shields, trinkets, items that i often swap around) its often hard to squeeze effects in on items around items haveing actual stat bonus we need, this way it would be possible to create item in the exact slot with exactly stat bonuses we need.That's lifted directly from heroic greensteel. Stats on weapons, skills on accessories. (Ignoring the tier 2 bonus effect for accessories that grants +6 wisdom.)


second question is, will there be some greensteel jewelry kit for removal of those auguments? it would allow easier tinkering ability, if the auguments would be bta we could remove the one we dont need anymore and move it to other character for example? just a thought.They said there'd be one in the store.

[bloodnose13]

That's lifted directly from heroic greensteel. Stats on weapons, skills on accessories. (Ignoring the tier 2 bonus effect for accessories that grants +6 wisdom.)

yea i know that, problem is that it does not make it ok, it takes a lot of flexability of this crafting system, so i think it deserves a thought, especialy that this system is augument based.

[IronClan]

I'm confused as to why Commendations of Valor are a part of a new crafting schema.

Why is this? Because no matter how you look at it, being able to use duplicated ingredients for a brand new crafting system is far, far worse than worrying about the duplication of ingredients used in a limited time event.

Your premise is baffling. It would only be valid if the Comms of Valor were the main ingredient... using LGS as an additional valor comm "sink" just serves to remove more of them from the game faster. They may see large sock piles of Vcomms, and want to remove some of them... making them a side ingredient accomplishes that. It also gives added economic interest to vcomms... instead of only taking heart seeds or renown, now there's a compelling NEW reason to take vcomms...

IMO after this update End reward lists will be VERY interesting compared to now.... Renown, Vcomms, Heart seeds if capped, and Actual random gen loot that is compelling and worthy of looking at each and every piece... If they have a metric for how long the average player looks at end reward lists I bet it increases 10 or 15 fold after this.

I know we don't think highly of each other and you like to point that out, so I'll save you the trouble this time. (for my part the feeling is mutual I can't much respect people who skitter off to "elsewhere" and talk about people like gossiping ol um... ladies) but none the less I am surprised you made that post it's just off the mark.

[Silverleafeon]

IMO after this update End reward lists will be VERY interesting compared to now.....

Well said, and with the loot chart reaching level 40, loot boosts on LE top level questing during loot weekends becomes actually interesting again. Last time I saw this kind of potential was farming elite Amarath during loot bonus weekends when the level cap was 20.

[Vargouille]

from what i seen on lammania, stat bonuses (str,con,int.... etc) are locked to weapons only, could you please rethink that? allowing stat items, would have much more wider use than this, i personaly dislike to have stat bonuses on swapables (weapons, shields, trinkets, items that i often swap around) its often hard to squeeze effects in on items around items haveing actual stat bonus we need, this way it would be possible to create item in the exact slot with exactly stat bonuses we need.

It's something we considered, but we didn't want to mess with the largely successful model used in Heroic Green Steel in this area. We do of course realize it is more powerful and flexible to be able to put these anywhere, but we're more than happy to be able to find these in other places or use those effects on the 8 accessory slots for other named loot as alternatives, rather than those effects essentially being "turned off" for this tier of power for all eight of those slots as even sort of interesting for future loot.


second question is, will there be some greensteel jewelry kit for removal of those auguments? it would allow easier tinkering ability, if the auguments would be bta we could remove the one we dont need anymore and move it to other character for example? just a thought.

We're planning on having a Legendary Green Steel Augment Extractor available in the store.

[SirValentine]

We're planning on having a Legendary Green Steel Augment Extractor available in the store.

Not standard Jeweler's Kits?

Then may I suggest it should be at least as easy to get an Extractor in-game as it is to cleanse the Shavarath taint, instead of being strictly Store-only?

If you want to continue the parallel to Heroic Green Steel, I'd like to point out that Yellow Dopant comes on the same 20th list as (Heroic) Cleansing Essence.

[bloodnose13]

It's something we considered, but we didn't want to mess with the largely successful model used in Heroic Green Steel in this area. We do of course realize it is more powerful and flexible to be able to put these anywhere, but we're more than happy to be able to find these in other places or use those effects on the 8 accessory slots for other named loot as alternatives, rather than those effects essentially being "turned off" for this tier of power for all eight of those slots as even sort of interesting for future loot.



We're planning on having a Legendary Green Steel Augment Extractor available in the store.

ok then, guess i have to wait longer for charisma item for my paladin... +6 at lvl 28 is bit low, but it has to do till there will be a named item i can squeeze in to fit with other items.

thats aproximation of my issue with that crafting system, i hoped i will be able to craft those "last missing element" items in greensteel.

btw: golem summoning clickie summons a living meteor. but i assume those things are still WIP.

[Zzevel]

ok then, guess i have to wait longer for charisma item for my paladin... +6 at lvl 28 is bit low, but it has to do till there will be a named item i can squeeze in to fit with other items.


http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Charisma_items

+7? Stolen Necklace (Level 16) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Stolen_Necklace_(Level_16))
+8? Sage's Ring (Level 19) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sage%27s_Ring_(Level_19))

Want +12 at 28? try Countenance (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Countenance)

[UurlockYgmeov]

Not standard Jeweler's Kits?

Then may I suggest it should be at least as easy to get an Extractor in-game as it is to cleanse the Shavarath taint, instead of being strictly Store-only?

If you want to continue the parallel to Heroic Green Steel, I'd like to point out that Yellow Dopant comes on the same 20th list as (Heroic) Cleansing Essence.

And don't forget we need a bag for the LGS augments!

[Bobby88888]

Ok a few major flaws that are making LGS a failure that should be rectified asap.
1. Stat bonus are on weapons, not accessories. Weapons are swapped in and out and stat bonuses are something you always need on, making putting them on weapons a waste, and thus coding them for weapons only a waste of time.
2. Save bonuses are split up into will, fort, or reflex when they should be combined into resistance. (tier 1 only)
3. Tier 2 saves bonuses use the insightful bonus type but should use a different type or all be combines for insightful resistance. (with insightful bonus to all saves on 1 item already highly prevalent this is a no brainer to make this useful)
4. Tier 1 accessory hp bonus type should change to stack with false life. It did on heroic items and that is why the heroic ones are still used to this day.
5. The stat bonuses are too high. +13 on tier 1, +6 on tier 2 and +2 on tier 3 seems about right.
6. Hamp should be a weapon or accessory, biggest issue with heroic GS was this.

That is my major issues anyway and if they are fixed ill be happy with the system rather than wanting almost nothing to do with it.

[bbqzor]

Iwe didn't want to mess with the largely successful model used in Heroic Green Steel in this area

I do not think that had much of anything to do with why GS weaponry was successful. And at the time I had guys with ~200 shroud completions (on one character, more by account obviously). Having played continuously before then and since, I feel pretty confident in my assessment. Some people did that, yes, but it was certainly not a large part of the puzzle.

I wish you guys had done more to connect with older players and discuss what was actually important. I have a feeling many of the options going live will leave things to be desired... the stat issue is one among them.

[bloodnose13]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Charisma_items

+7? Stolen Necklace (Level 16) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Stolen_Necklace_(Level_16))
+8? Sage's Ring (Level 19) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sage%27s_Ring_(Level_19))

Want +12 at 28? try Countenance (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Countenance)

not pushing the subject anymore but you are missing the point of that example, point was that after all those raids and raid items to get from them, trying to squeeze in stat is a pain/chore/near impossiblity, and being able to craft the exactly item you need for the slot you have left would be perfect.

[Iron_Claw]

It's something we considered, but we didn't want to mess with the largely successful model used in Heroic Green Steel in this area. We do of course realize it is more powerful and flexible to be able to put these anywhere, but we're more than happy to be able to find these in other places or use those effects on the 8 accessory slots for other named loot as alternatives, rather than those effects essentially being "turned off" for this tier of power for all eight of those slots as even sort of interesting for future loot.



We're planning on having a Legendary Green Steel Augment Extractor available in the store.

Another bait and switch case, like the legendary RTB's ?

Fail.

[Vargouille]

And don't forget we need a bag for the LGS augments!

Legendary Green Steel Augments go into the existing augment bags.

[IronClan]

Another bait and switch case, like the legendary RTB's ?

Fail.

Nothing wrong with that or this. Both items are heavilly duped and heavilly card-collected into thousands of stacks.

The RTB's caused content to be binged and with the result of people getting bored faster, changing that is very beneficial.

Jewelers kits still are very very useful for all the OTHER augments we have, and will remain very useful. they are probably seriously dead sales wise in the store due to the massive quantities, so a new store item with (I would hope) a similar price point that works for a new system makes sense.

This game simply shuts down if no one buys anything, expecting a free ride is not something any grown up should do.

[Waaye]

We're happy to hear your feedback on […] things relating to Legendary Green Steel. It's a big complex system.
Is there any plan to come up with something similar to Green Steel but available to players that play their alignment and are using good characters? Currently, the only way to obtain Green Steel is to murder an entire village of good elves to enable Green Steel crafting. No good character should ever do something as evil as that.

[Anaximandroz]

Pls add lgs shields and orbs as weapons

[-Avalon-]

Please add Neg. Amp to LGS/GS... and some Light Spell Power as well?