New Raids

[Seljuck]

After at least 1 year break, today I and my 3 friends from guild completed Lord of Blades. We did heroic elite run, just for fun and favor. And you know what? We had more fun than doing DoJ, MoD or Peak. Much more fun. We talked about: How great was 'LoB' raid when it was released. When you need tank, and tanking didn't mean shield block and stand still. It was active tanking, where you have to avoid special attacks, keep agro, shield block when stunning attack comes. Where people split for different tasks, someone kitted dogs, someone have to destroy pillars and rest try to kill Lord of Blades. It's great raid.

Now compare it to Defiler of the Just. There's almost no tactic, just killing order/timing. For around 20 min, people have to run and kill trash.
Tactics? 0
Class balance needed? Nope
Tank? Hell no!
Division of tasks? Yeah right, I kill that mob, you kill the other one. Reapet.

That's prompted me to think about upcoming new raids. Will they be more like 'new' extremely boring DoJ or MoD, where tactics, class balance and tasks almost don't exist? or will they be more like old school raids, LoB, ToD, HoX, Shroud or Titan (2nd great and underestimated raid due to lot of bugs and level range)

If possible, Devs, please do not make another raid, which boils down to the mass killing monsters.

What are your thoughts guys? How in your opinion new raids should look ? What mechanics should contain?

[Holyavatar]

i would say idc much about how good the raids are designed,or tactical mechanics as u said..im not huge fun of traditional mmo tank/heal/dps raid setting,since im tired of them in WOW already.. i play ddo only because of the ultimate character customization possibility,the progression of getting Pastlifes,gears and able to solo endgame ee contents as challenges,or in other words:more powercrap. i dont like big group cooperation challenge like raid in ddo...its sucks nao and worse before imo...i would rather go back to play WOW or other games,they are much better on raid content..the only reason i play raid is better loots,and i think dats the main motivation of most ppl too...My requirements for new raid is low,just NO LAG and ****** flagging quests like titan and shroud. But i have no confidence on turbine Devs...sigh

[UurlockYgmeov]

3 new legendary raids coming in U29:

2 of which should require tactics and more than just 'kill or be killed'.

TS (Tempest Spine (which will remain f2p for the new version)) already requires tactics - so hopefully the new version does as well.

HoX (Hound of Xoriat) which until 'ruin' and other not-wai things required tactics : aka teamwork (coordination, cooperation, and communication).

I expect both of these to be just as much - if not even more fun that the existing raids.

Epic Shroud - aka the 17th eclipse - Yes - this should be even more challenging that the original shroud was when it first came out.

#koboldkonsortium
#uurlockygmeov

[Holymunchkin]

After at least 1 year break, today I and my 3 friends from guild completed Lord of Blades. We did heroic elite run, just for fun and favor. And you know what? We had more fun than doing DoJ, MoD or Peak. Much more fun. We talked about: How great was 'LoB' raid when it was released. When you need tank, and tanking didn't mean shield block and stand still. It was active tanking, where you have to avoid special attacks, keep agro, shield block when stunning attack comes. Where people split for different tasks, someone kitted dogs, someone have to destroy pillars and rest try to kill Lord of Blades. It's great raid.

Now compare it to Defiler of the Just. There's almost no tactic, just killing order/timing. For around 20 min, people have to run and kill trash.
Tactics? 0
Class balance needed? Nope
Tank? Hell no!
Division of tasks? Yeah right, I kill that mob, you kill the other one. Reapet.

That's prompted me to think about upcoming new raids. Will they be more like 'new' extremely boring DoJ or MoD, where tactics, class balance and tasks almost don't exist? or will they be more like old school raids, LoB, ToD, HoX, Shroud or Titan (2nd great and underestimated raid due to lot of bugs and level range)

If possible, Devs, please do not make another raid, which boils down to the mass killing monsters.

What are your thoughts guys? How in your opinion new raids should look ? What mechanics should contain?

I'm sorry but you obviously haven't been instrumental in the completion of an EE DoJ. EE DoJ requires tactics, and roles. Even with those roles you can wipe. It is not an easy raid, and the ideal strategy requires teamwork.

MoD is also all about teamwork. Roles are diverse.

I won't make excuses for Deathwyrm or Firepeaks, but they certainly have division of roles as well.

You need to play on a difficulty in which you consistently fail in order to need teamwork.

[Seljuck]

I'm sorry but you obviously haven't been instrumental in the completion of an EE DoJ. EE DoJ requires tactics, and roles. Even with those roles you can wipe. It is not an easy raid, and the ideal strategy requires teamwork.

MoD is also all about teamwork. Roles are diverse.

I won't make excuses for Deathwyrm or Firepeaks, but they certainly have division of roles as well.

You need to play on a difficulty in which you consistently fail in order to need teamwork.

OK, so please explain 'What tactics EE 'DoJ' required? Except for communication and splitting people across exe spawn points?

Deathwyrm is actually quite good raid, I like it more then Firepeak or MoD.

Firepeak may have division of roles, 3 (three) roles (1- 2 tanks - split dragons, 2- someone to prepare artifact, 3- rest kill trash). So yeah, another raid where big role of most people will be to kill waves of trash.

MoD is very similar to Firepeak, except that it require CC for orange named on higher difficulty (Flesh to Stone for everyone) and not just only killing like in EN. That's the whole tactic. Rest is running across platform to avoid blue circles and kill archers/Abbot/Deathknights.

[janave]

Bruteforce and DPS metrics based content are the result of
- not having roles anymore
- not having proper balance between class updates and broken builds there is almost nothing worth even playing.

Adding Warlock just made DDO a little bit more WoW, and it seems thats the direction from now on, looking at the new powercreep feats being added.

[Darkmits]

Adding Warlock just made DDO a little bit more WoW, and it seems thats the direction from now on, looking at the new powercreep feats being added.WoW has balanced dps roles, balanced healing roles, and balanced tanking roles. Outside of WorldTop50 guilds and only during progress, you can change any for any between same roles and there is no noticeable difference in group effectiveness. Warlock brought DDO closer to Korean MMOs, ie. mindless grinding where most of the challenge lies in not getting bored instead of what character build to follow and what action to take in combat.

[kemetka]

i've made this comment countless times, but ill say it again :
DDO already has an amazing raid setup, and ready to go, but its not utilized, and remains a "group" quest **cough cough solo**

Misery's Peak
would require roles ( 2 splitting groups, one of which has to play dragon bait - but who knows what the hell they were doing before they got there amiright? ) the other one takes a seperate path and has to find mindsunder crystal.

raid boss > that illithad that would normally get taken out by the dragon ( cause how the hell did jeetz and the others drag the dragon to the mind flayer and then just end up somewhere else, consdiering how ddoor and teleport work in ths game?

**ALTERNATIVE to actually having a raid boss, have a designated "extraction point" where the party is teleported out, or whatever, after destroying the crystal which would leave teh dragon to kill the illithid as it currently exists.

or have both, the group that has been dragon fodder now has to keep the illithid busy as well after kiting said dragon through a dungeon, then other group takes out crystal, dragon gets its mind back, kills ilithid, thanks group, gives treasure, done.

just me though.

[Ellihor]

I'm sorry but you obviously haven't been instrumental in the completion of an EE DoJ. EE DoJ requires tactics, and roles. Even with those roles you can wipe. It is not an easy raid, and the ideal strategy requires teamwork.

MoD is also all about teamwork. Roles are diverse.

I won't make excuses for Deathwyrm or Firepeaks, but they certainly have division of roles as well.

You need to play on a difficulty in which you consistently fail in order to need teamwork.

Wrong. You don't need teamwork in MoD. Hell, nowadays you don't even need cc for behos and trash. Just let people kill everything, even on EE. Unless for you deciding who stays in midle and who goes east and west is teamwork. Personally, I think it goes much deeper than that.

Whats tatics are you talking about in EE DoJ? There is no such thing there. Just kill everything, DPS rules king, and in the end fight instead of making something intresting they did the bomb mechanic that EMPHASIZES DPS EVEN MORE! I wonder what were they thinking when they did that.

[Marshal_Lannes]

I think Deathwyrm is an excellent raid. If you cut out half the mirrors you have almost a perfect raid. It has platforming, DPS, puzzles and a mix of enemies.

I think Fire on Thunder Peaks is a very good raid. Everyone loves dragons and this is one great big dragon fight. You need two tanks, good reflex saves and DPS. This is a steroids version of Vision of Destruction.

I agree that Mark of Death and Defiler of the Just are bad raids. MoD was seemingly designed for the Paladin armor up pass. Any character that does not have very high PRR/MRR is at a huge disadvantage in there. DoJ is, I'm sorry to say, just dumb. With red names every where it is designed for boosted, cleaving max DPS melees. It requires absolutely nothing but raw DPS. Even the end fight is all about raw DPS - kill the boss before the special blast is unleashed.

However, I don't think it is all rosy with LoB. The run out to LoB is long and annoying. I do like bosses having active special attacks though. I hate it when bosses just stand in the middle of a room and get whacked apart.

[slarden]

Tempest Spine and Hox are just taking an existing quest and making it work for legendary levels. They should be the same as heroic with some adjustments.

The last I heard Shroud part 1-3 was the same and 4-5 was new to support the latest story line. Not sure if that is the case, but it will be up on Thursday to try out.

[Holymunchkin]

OK, so please explain 'What tactics EE 'DoJ' required? Except for communication and splitting people across exe spawn points?

I believe ya just answered my question. But here we go, for myself and posterity:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/468344-EE-DoJ-The-Captain-s-Crew-Method

[Seljuck]

I believe ya just answered my question. But here we go, for myself and posterity:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/468344-EE-DoJ-The-Captain-s-Crew-Method

Now please compare your DoJ 'tactic' to:

1) Lord of Blades tactics (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/349177-reference-post-for-lob-raid?p=4157914&viewfull=1#post4157914)
2) The Titan Awakes tactics (http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Titan_Awakes)
3) Temple of the Deathwyrm tactics (mostly stage 8) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Deathwyrm)
4) Hound of Xoriat tactics (http://ddowiki.com/page/Hound_of_xoriat)

Don't you feel that DoJ 'tactics' stinks, compared to other good raid tactics?

[Seljuck]

I would love to see more complicated raids, with more acitve tanking, avoiding special attacks like in lob, with splitted players tasks and MUCH LESS TRASH

F.example, Druid themed raid.

You have to cure old Magical Ent corrupted by demonic disease.

1) You cannot kill Ent or raid will failure
2) You need 1 tank to keep agro of Ent, boss will have special AoE attacks so both tank and players have to watch for his moves to avoid devastating AoE
3) Meanwhile other players have to split in small groups,
- first will take care of small waves of summoned trash like wisps, corrupted dryads, corrupted animals, vine horrors
- second will try to release Arch druid from Ents rooted prison.
4) Once Arch druid will be free, he asks you to bring him 3 magical stones that are hide somewhere on arena.
5) Stones have to used on special altars, altars have to be protected.
6) Once everything will be set, Arch druid will start incantation to cure Ent, you will need to help him by making Ent weaker, this mean DPS Ent to 1/3 HP, also you will need protect Arch druid from small waves of trash.
7) END

[Ellihor]

I believe ya just answered my question. But here we go, for myself and posterity:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/468344-EE-DoJ-The-Captain-s-Crew-Method

And you can resume these tatics in two senteces:

Kill everything untill boss.
At boss have a ranged to aggro the worm and the rest kill boss.

Doesn't sound very tatical does it?