Any plan on fixing NecroIV and Toee?

[Vanhooger]

Did run full chain EE with guild few days ago, and it's ridicolous that they hit for 400 non champ. Champ hit in between 500 to 700 per hit with 100 prr on a robe user.
In toee if you got more than 1 archer in each mob group you're going to die in 3-4 hit each one of those is 100-150 if champ 200+ x arrow.
Cheked combat log all normal hit no crits with 190% fort.

For a melee mean the time you need to face him and start swing you already dead.

That is not challenge that is absurd.

[Novalis]

Did run full chain EE with guild few days ago, and it's ridicolous that they hit for 400 non champ. Champ hit in between 500 to 700 per hit with 100 prr on a robe user.
In toee if you got more than 1 archer in each mob group you're going to die in 3-4 hit each one of those is 100-150 if champ 200+ x arrow.
Cheked combat log all normal hit no crits with 190% fort.

For a melee mean the time you need to face him and start swing you already dead.

That is not challenge that is absurd.

From what I understand, Necro 4 is a taste of what legendary will be. EE makes it over lv 30 and there was a difficulty stealth switch done some months ago. One night EE was passable with a good group. Now it's just time sinking, pointless and demoralizing. I raised issues with ToEE being off the scales but it's supposed to be like that. A Roving Bandit will hit 350-450 and a doublestrike with that will one shot most. If it's a champ, you get turned into a puddle. I raised an issue with this awhile back, but that's how they designed it. The buff altars were incorporated for this reason. But when was the last time you saw a buff altar...? ToEE had potential to be awesome like Haunted Halls. They really could have had something great.

[Marshal_Lannes]

There forums are always good for a laugh. 90% of the time all I hear is the game is too easy, the game is too easy! As soon as something is challenging it is 'nerf the difficulty, it's too hard!!" Come on! Give us Reaper, but onlyif WE can do Reaper!

[Vanhooger]

From what I understand, Necro 4 is a taste of what legendary will be. EE makes it over lv 30 and there was a difficulty stealth switch done some months ago. One night EE was passable with a good group. Now it's just time sinking, pointless and demoralizing. I raised issues with ToEE being off the scales but it's supposed to be like that. A Roving Bandit will hit 350-450 and a doublestrike with that will one shot most. If it's a champ, you get turned into a puddle. I raised an issue with this awhile back, but that's how they designed it. The buff altars were incorporated for this reason. But when was the last time you saw a buff altar...? ToEE had potential to be awesome like Haunted Halls. They really could have had something great.

This is happening because the only thing they do to increase challenge is increasing mob damage and hp. AI need a complete rework.

[Vanhooger]

There forums are always good for a laugh. 90% of the time all I hear is the game is too easy, the game is too easy! As soon as something is challenging it is 'nerf the difficulty, it's too hard!!" Come on! Give us Reaper, but onlyif WE can do Reaper!

Getting one shot by a mob it's what you call challenging? If yes, that's a weird idea of challenge.

[Thrudh]

Did run full chain EE with guild few days ago

So you completed all four quests?

[Vanhooger]

So you completed all four quests?

I did, that's not the point.

[Chai]

.....meanwhile, back on the forums.

-game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy-game is made harder on elite only-game needs to be fixed so elite is easier again-refuse to play normal or hard even when conditions in those difficulties mirror the way I want them on elite.

[Vanhooger]

.....meanwhile, back on the forums.

-game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy-game is made harder on elite only-game needs to be fixed so elite is easier again-refuse to play normal or hard.

I missed the part where I say I want this game to be easy. All I say challenge should be achieved in a different way then one shot 2 shot mob. But if you guys want to hear that one shot mob is so much fun, well...NecroIV & Toee are so much fun!

[Chai]

I missed the part where I say I want this game to be easy. All I say challenge should be achieved in a different way then one shot 2 shot mob.

Ive argued the same for years now - and each suggestion that deviates away from "give them moar hp and inflated stats" gets shot down buy the same forumites who do what I outlined in my previous response.

[Thrudh]

I did, that's not the point.

Sure it is... So it's not TOO hard... You had a few deaths in the hardest quests in the game, and you still completed. Sounds about right to me... Did you guys play smart or just charge into each encounter?

Will you only be happy if you can zerg through the hardest quests in the game with zero deaths?

[Novalis]

My last run in EE necro 4 was brutal. Had a full party of time tested veterans. we had all done the dance in ee many times before. The first run was EE Flesh. We knew we needed to protect the cleric, but this was a completely different kind of brutal. When was the last time it took a multi PL group with complete tier gear 45 %$#@& minutes to get though an EE Fleshmakers? Whether it be too hard or too easy, challenge isn't getting 1 shotted. There has been a stink with the non playing fanbois that they don't like seeing lv 20 1st lifers with twink gear breezing through EE content. It's not that now the game is too hard, it's that it's CHEAP. Challenge is getting through Haunted halls EE. Challenge is Doing EE ADQ at level. It's not running from point A to B, fighting HP sacks and hope you don't get creamed.

[Thrudh]

My last run in EE necro 4 was brutal. Had a full party of time tested veterans. we had all done the dance in ee many times before. The first run was EE Flesh. We knew we needed to protect the cleric, but this was a completely different kind of brutal. When was the last time it took a multi PL group with complete tier gear 45 %$#@& minutes to get though an EE Fleshmakers? Whether it be too hard or too easy, challenge isn't getting 1 shotted. There has been a stink with the non playing fanbois that they don't like seeing lv 20 1st lifers with twink gear breezing through EE content. It's not that now the game is too hard, it's that it's CHEAP. Challenge is getting through Haunted halls EE. Challenge is Doing EE ADQ at level. It's not running from point A to B, fighting HP sacks and hope you don't get creamed.

So maybe you need to invest in something besides DPS. For a while, max DPS was the only goal... Now maybe you might want to invest in defense, or tactics to stun or trip that champion before he one-shots you. Maybe you need to pull mobs in smaller groups instead of charging straight in.

[Novalis]

So maybe you need to invest in something besides DPS. For a while, max DPS was the only goal... Now maybe you might want to invest in defense, or tactics to stun or trip that champion before he one-shots you. Maybe you need to pull mobs in smaller groups instead of charging straight in.

So this is the standard response now? Move to caster? Warlock? Pew pew rogue or artie? This isn't just the 100 prr or less builds. This is the completionist tank, pally, fighter type builds that get the 1-2 #$%& YOU from a flesh golem. How about the champ Inferno cinderspawns that rack you for 800 a pop and don't even drop chests? And since when did GoP zombies have lich force burst???

[Qhualor]

Not too long ago I ran EE Necro with a full group. We were cruising along just fine until we got to the part you have to fight the casters and Flesh Golems to open the door before the shrine in Fleshmakers. From that point on we had a lot of problems staying alive. We must have died 10x each and there was a lot of kiting trying to focus on 1 mob at a time. We had to eventually work as a team pulling the Golems out of the electric rooms just to be able to pull the levers to open the end fight room.

It was pretty brutal getting 1 or 2 shotted. It's one thing when a random Champion can potentially do that, but it's another when an entire quest of mobs does it. I guess that's why I've been seeing a lot of EN Necro these days. I think the damage needs to be toned down just a little. Enough so it would be still ideal for a group to work together.

[Chai]

So this is the standard response now? Move to caster? Warlock? Pew pew rogue or artie? This isn't just the 100 prr or less builds. This is the completionist taknk, pally, fighter type builds that get the 1-2 #$%& YOU from a flesh golem. How about the champ Inferno cinderspawns that rack you for 800 a pop and don't even drop chests? And since when did GoP zombies have lich force burst???

No.

The standard response will be to ween the forumites (note I did not say the players) off the DPS-is-the-only-thing-to-build-for formula which people followed for years now (on the forums). Due to the fact that this formula was successful in most in game content for that same period of time, it may be necessary for people to feel that pain a few times before they resort to changing their character building strategy to deal with the modern DDO max and near max level epic elite quests, as this content requires building in some survivability as well as recovery above and beyond the default twist-in-cocoon-and-call-it-a-day.

[Vanhooger]

So maybe you need to invest in something besides DPS. For a while, max DPS was the only goal... Now maybe you might want to invest in defense, or tactics to stun or trip that champion before he one-shots you. Maybe you need to pull mobs in smaller groups instead of charging straight in.

You should tell that to the paladin vanguard (heavy armor + tower) that was in my party, that is supposed to handle more then 2 shot with his defense. Not pulling waves of mob, just one mob hitting for 600+, that's great fun! The best challenge I ever saw in a game!

Anyway if you think oneshot is the goal to make this game more interesting and more challenging, well...good luck.

[Novalis]

No.

The standard response will be to ween the forumites (note I did not say the players) off the DPS-is-the-only-thing-to-build-for formula which people followed for years now (on the forums). Due to the fact that this formula was successful in most in game content for that same period of time, it may be necessary for people to feel that pain a few times before they resort to changing their character building strategy to deal with the modern DDO max and near max level epic elite quests, as this content requires building in some survivability as well as recovery above and beyond the default twist-in-cocoon-and-call-it-a-day.

I will agree there needs to be more strategy implemented. EE Necro was never like Gambit where you just run, kill & loot. Like web for the golems & zombies is highly effective. But once they're free get ready for the one shot. But where do classes like bards, blue bars like clerics and specialty like artificer and rogue fit in? They supposed to follow the heavy hitters & cling to the rafters like cowards fighting Karleth in Thrill of the Hunt? I'd like to see rogues being able to better implement the trapmaking feat in EE content like this. Web traps could make great CC but then it all comes down to the assault on build diversity. How many champs, orange or red names invalidate the effects of things normally used? There are so many variables that even a group that has a solid strategy, dps, and gear end up making it out only after using persistence & cake resources.

[Thrudh]

You should tell that to the paladin vanguard (heavy armor + tower) that was in my party, that is supposed to handle more then 2 shot with his defense. Not pulling waves of mob, just one mob hitting for 600+, that's great fun! The best challenge I ever saw in a game!

Your team couldn't handle one mob hitting for 600+?

That paladin vanguard should have used Stunning Shield, and the encounter would have been trivial. Have people completely forgotten how to play tough content? When I can't handle a mass of mobs, I manage aggro carefully.

[Novalis]

Your team couldn't handle one mob hitting for 600+?

That paladin vanguard should have used Stunning Shield, and the encounter would have been trivial. Have people completely forgotten how to play tough content? When I can't handle a mass of mobs, I manage aggro carefully.

Stunning shield in Necro 4. 90% of the stuff is immune.

[Dragavon]

A friend of mine came back to game last week after an 18 months break. He obviously needs some updated gear, so we did EE orchard to flag him for the MoD raid an try and get him some items.

We where a full group of guildies and friends, highest level char was a lvl 27 paladin, the rest of us where lvl 23-25.

We took it slow, pulled mobs to us and killed them instead of rushing in and used tactics like in the old days. We had a few deaths ofc, but never had any serious problems. We even enjoyed it.

We did 3 quests on EE, then GoP on EH.

[blerkington]

Hi,

It's not always the same people who are complaining that the game is too easy or saying the game is too hard.

By all means take individuals to task if they make conflicting statements about game difficulty and can't explain it, but treating everything said on the forums as if it all comes from one person and then carrying on about contradictions makes no sense at all.

I don't mind what they've done with Necro IV, though I do think it's much more challenging for some builds than others. It's certainly a choke chain on melee builds even if they have high PRR; the enemies do way too much damage now to heedlessly zerg into groups of them.

It doesn't do a whole lot to affect casters or ranged builds though, and if it's an indication of how legendary content will be made difficult, for build diversity it will be just like winding back the clock to the early days of EE. There's little point in adding PRR to the game for the sake of making melees more viable if later on all you do is jack up monsters' melee damage to the extent we see in Necro IV.

After you get used to it and slow down, the only place in the four quests which is really that much more difficult is the spectre room in GoP. It's doable, even without deaths, but fast moving enemies that phase so much it's difficult to target them and are unaffected by most CC seems a little much to me. I think that fight could use an adjustment, but if it stays how it is it's no big deal either.

Thanks.

[Qezuzu]

I'd like to see rogues being able to better implement the trapmaking feat in EE content like this. Web traps could make great CC but then it all comes down to the assault on build diversity. How many champs, orange or red names invalidate the effects of things normally used?

There's not enough immunes to make Web traps not ridiculously useful.

I usually just run with a couple friends and we can usually zerg through all quests on EE, but if a quest is just too much we use web traps (ideally in door frames) and then the quest becomes roughly as easy because nothing can save against it.

The devs are taking a very lazy and ineffective approach to difficulty, an approach that has been poorly received in many other games and genres (e.g. the term "bullet sponge"). Just pumping up the damage and HP to crazy levels. Oh, and the saves, too, so DC casting doesn't work, and they throw 20 mobs at you at once so single-target Stunning Blow isn't that good either; you need to use Web traps or Fascinate.

But of course, what actually happens is people pump up their DPS and defenses even more, because most CC abilities don't work/are a waste of time in these quests, and the other option is to pull less mobs at a time, which doesn't work in most quests unless you have a sneaky member.

[Qezuzu]

I thought using Web traps was exploiting a game bug, and that only elemental traps were supposed to reach DCs to be usable in EE?

Somewhere in the depths of the Mechanic Pass thread, a dev said that the DC being equal to Disable Device (or DD+10 or whatever it truly is that allows huge DCs) is now considered WAI.

To balance it out, elemental traps are useless pieces of junk.

[nokowi]

Necro IV and ToEE are both doable without an entire group of vets. Its helpful to have 2 vets, or 1 supreme build.

Prior to the changes any 1 vet could get any 5 other players though all of Necro IV.

If you can't get through Necro IV or ToEE, you can improve as a player, or as a group. There are those doing it, so there is nothing impossible about these quests. There are still high PRR/MRR builds that laugh at these quests. They are challenging and fun for me on a rogue.


Web traps need a DC of above 110-115 in EE ToEE. I took an epic feat (+5) to find this out, sadly. Outside of Necro IV and ToEE, web traps (~90 DC) work handily. Trap DC is disable device score (if you take 3 ranks in Mechanic: Improved Traps). I believe elemental traps were buffed on the rogue pass, even if you still find them to be junk. Trap placement is definitely MUCH faster now.

[Starla70]

Currently the standard answer for threads like this (and by people I see posting here) is either a.) reroll, your toon is broken, b.) simple drop to hard, you are not ready to play Elite or c.) regear and try again, on hard first.

So you at least got better answers then I got. Now several of us who got caught in a nasty Ghost were getting non champions hitting for 900 each hit. Sounds like it has been toned down some. We tried each of us which was different builds going in solo, then the other 5 joined, slowly to see the effect. It seems most 3rd or 4th life toons can solo them on elite. If you add 3 or more it gets insane. Can you complete? Sure, if you are fine with dying many times in a quest. If you enjoy the game play, it may change your mind about those quests. I am hoping when the new updates hit and the 30 quests come, I can again try those quests on Elite, that this point, no interest at all in it. I am one who does not find it fun to die several times because I have less hit points then even the lowest mob hits for. I know I am not alone, but the squeaky wheel right now is those saying it is too easy.

[Grailhawk]

I don't mind what they've done with Necro IV, though I do think it's much more challenging for some builds than others. It's certainly a choke chain on melee builds even if they have high PRR; the enemies do way too much damage now to heedlessly zerg into groups of them.

It doesn't do a whole lot to affect casters or ranged builds though, and if it's an indication of how legendary content will be made difficult, for build diversity it will be just like winding back the clock to the early days of EE. There's little point in adding PRR to the game for the sake of making melees more viable if later on all you do is jack up monsters' melee damage to the extent we see in Necro IV.

Here's the thing melee were always viable in EE even in the early days. Maybe they couldn't solo EE as easily as a caster or ranged toon but a group of 6 good melees was a faster completion in most cases then a pack of 6 archers or casters.




If you can't get through Necro IV or ToEE, you can improve as a player, or as a group. There are those doing it, so there is nothing impossible about these quests. There are still high PRR/MRR builds that laugh at these quests. They are challenging and fun for me on a rogue.

This, the Necro IV quests are IMO the right difficulty for the game on EE. I know a lot of people don't like the "One Shot" phenomenon but in a fast past game like DDO that's the nature of the beast.

[Vanhooger]

Stunning shield in Necro 4. 90% of the stuff is immune.

Lol we don't know how to use tactics look like.

[Vanhooger]

Currently the standard answer for threads like this (and by people I see posting here) is either a.) reroll, your toon is broken, b.) simple drop to hard, you are not ready to play Elite or c.) regear and try again, on hard first.

So you at least got better answers then I got. Now several of us who got caught in a nasty Ghost were getting non champions hitting for 900 each hit. Sounds like it has been toned down some. We tried each of us which was different builds going in solo, then the other 5 joined, slowly to see the effect. It seems most 3rd or 4th life toons can solo them on elite. If you add 3 or more it gets insane. Can you complete? Sure, if you are fine with dying many times in a quest. If you enjoy the game play, it may change your mind about those quests. I am hoping when the new updates hit and the 30 quests come, I can again try those quests on Elite, that this point, no interest at all in it. I am one who does not find it fun to die several times because I have less hit points then even the lowest mob hits for. I know I am not alone, but the squeaky wheel right now is those saying it is too easy.

Currently the standard answer to people like you is, read the thread again till you understand what I wrote.Of course you can do necro IV and Toee ee, nobody need a genius to figure out a way to finish them even if with oneshot mob. Everything is about damgage and hp, and that is not challenge at all. If they improve AI instead of just pumping up damage & hp every time this will be a better game.

[kemetka]

clerics have the ability to instantly blind almost anything in game outside of most undead and construcuts
rogues have web trabs - as has been pointed oiut
bards have fascinate / enthrall
all of which will work in both ToEE and necro 4 EE, tried and tested
conjur based wizzy's have spells that offer no save / no sr, not tested this in epics yet, still need input if a conjur wizzy can effectively cc stuff or at least halfway mitigate stuff in epics.
druids have earthquake + ice storm + mantle of winter ( not tried this combo in EE necro 4 or ToEE but it works everywhere else on EE, tag a good intim on top of that, and mobs play run around in circles while the melee's demolish them.

[Jetrule]

I got my first EE completion on TOEE part 2 yesterday. It was with a pug I was on my first life barbarian I was one of 2 players with no deaths in part one. And was second in kills I think. I have however many times completed part one on EE. part 2 I and every one else died multiple times in the end fight but there were only one or two deaths before that. It was a strong group with several good builds and Fairly regular consecrate healings, and a cleric fighters healing aura going off on the 4 meles. My barb has decent not uber gear lay out and hasn't even maxed L.D. yet which he was running in at lvl 3 :D. only 2 First tier twists available. My character contributed aoe dps and thats about it. The other players were all good. but the party synergized well. 4 meles. A barb a vanguard pali. A cleric fighter healer tank. A freeze bard buff machine warchanter in D.C. with awesome fascinates. A pali rogue heavy repeater and a monkcher shuricannon. The party played well. never agroing more than one group of mobs ata time. and supported one another with team play. This on a pug! It was Great. I know this wasnt your experience with this quest all i can suggest is maybe team composition and or tactics could be improved.

[Enderoc]

Build up your destinies...choose the right destiny for each given quest.

You know by the time you reach the end of TOEE part 2 you will be begging for more hp.

[blerkington]

Here's the thing melee were always viable in EE even in the early days. Maybe they couldn't solo EE as easily as a caster or ranged toon but a group of 6 good melees was a faster completion in most cases then a pack of 6 archers or casters.

Hi,

What you say about well-made and -played melees being viable early on in EE is certainly true, but I remember a lot of complaining about it too. That was what got us to where we are now, and it was around then we saw the rise of monkchers and shiradi casters.

If a group of melees was putting out good damage and working together well it wasn't much of a problem. But in disorganised PUGs it could turn into a Benny Hill skit pretty quickly, with groups falling to pieces once a couple of them went down.

The developers seem to be just going around in circles with how they want melees to perform in hard content. It would be nice to see some consistency of approach.

Thanks.

[Grailhawk]

If a group of melees was putting out good damage and working together well it wasn't much of a problem. But in disorganised PUGs it could turn into a Benny Hill skit pretty quickly, with groups falling to pieces once a couple of them went down.

Might just be me but I feel that is and was a better game.

[blerkington]

Might just be me but I feel that is and was a better game.

Hi,

No, it's not only you.

I think it's a problem when the highest difficulty the game has to offer is easily completable. If that bar is set too low, it pretty much invites anyone who wants a challenge to leave once they hit a certain standard and nothing is left but endless repetition of a small endgame and/or reincarnating for more power we don't need.

Even though it would make some people unhappy in the short term if the game were adjusted for a wider spread of difficulty, it might be better for the health of the game in the long term. In a tiered difficulty game, doing well in the highest tier should not be possible for people who haven't learned how to build, gear and play their characters. It's not about elitism, it's about progression and making the limited amount of content we have last.

I can't count the number of really good players who have completely disappeared from Khyber or who only drop in occasionally rather than playing regularly. That's not to say the people who are left aren't good, but there's been a big drain. I wish the game had more to offer them so they had stuck around.

Thanks.

[slarden]

It's more of an issue with monster stats being wrong than an issue with difficulty.

There are enemies that are easier as well and need to be more difficult. Archers shouldn't be more dangerous than a red named end boss in my opinion. I would like them to adjust these quests but if not I want them to at least get it right in the U29 quests and forward.

[Qezuzu]

Everything is about damgage and hp, and that is not challenge at all

This is the big thing IMO.

There's pretty much 2 difficult parts to a "modern" DDO quest (so Archon and Gambit chain as examples). The first fight, and the end fight. Cause if the first group of a dozen mobs didn't give you trouble, how is the next group of roughly identical mobs going to challenge you?

Cause that seems to be direction DDO is going as far as quest design goes. If Legendary Vale doesn't break the mold, well, maybe I can convince my guildies to move on to another game. Because it's a very tiring trend. There are plenty of ways to challenge players without resorting to inflating mob HP/damage/numbers, and they already exist in the game.

[nokowi]

I did some testing and I believe people complaining about a one-shot in Necro IV have sub-par fortification (crit hit), less than 700 HP, or minimal PRR.

Watch your combat log and be honest when you report to the forums.

1. Was it a crit?
2. What's your PRR?
3. How many HP of damage?

Every case I have seen (in my groups) of over 700 damage was a critical hit.



Can someone post a non crit with over 700 damage?

[nokowi]

It's more of an issue with monster stats being wrong than an issue with difficulty.

There are enemies that are easier as well and need to be more difficult. Archers shouldn't be more dangerous than a red named end boss in my opinion. I would like them to adjust these quests but if not I want them to at least get it right in the U29 quests and forward.



I agree with you in principle. I am curious if you took the deflect arrows feat, however.

[PsychoBlonde]

I will agree there needs to be more strategy implemented. EE Necro was never like Gambit where you just run, kill & loot. Like web for the golems & zombies is highly effective. But once they're free get ready for the one shot. But where do classes like bards, blue bars like clerics and specialty like artificer and rogue fit in? They supposed to follow the heavy hitters & cling to the rafters like cowards fighting Karleth in Thrill of the Hunt? I'd like to see rogues being able to better implement the trapmaking feat in EE content like this. Web traps could make great CC but then it all comes down to the assault on build diversity. How many champs, orange or red names invalidate the effects of things normally used? There are so many variables that even a group that has a solid strategy, dps, and gear end up making it out only after using persistence & cake resources.

I use traps in EE ToEE on my rogue/monk/paladin. It's about the only CC that DOES work, because the DC is 95+.

Web, Hypnotism, and Halt Undead traps are the best. Damage traps are pointless.

[PsychoBlonde]

Here's the thing melee were always viable in EE even in the early days. Maybe they couldn't solo EE as easily as a caster or ranged toon but a group of 6 good melees was a faster completion in most cases then a pack of 6 archers or casters.

Right up until some idiot pulled too many mobs and all 6 melee went down in seconds. My main was a cleric archer at the time and the second I'd log in I'd have several people asking me to come heal some EE quest or another. If you want to zerg, melee has ALWAYS been the best. The trouble is when zerging is prohibited by lack of viable healing and defenses. That's when ranged characters are better--not because they're faster, but because they can stay alive.

Of course the new idea seems to be that the ranged characters should be just as screwed as anyone else.

We'll see when the new levels hit.

[Blastyswa]

Did run full chain EE with guild few days ago, and it's ridicolous that they hit for 400 non champ. Champ hit in between 500 to 700 per hit with 100 prr on a robe user.
In toee if you got more than 1 archer in each mob group you're going to die in 3-4 hit each one of those is 100-150 if champ 200+ x arrow.
Cheked combat log all normal hit no crits with 190% fort.

For a melee mean the time you need to face him and start swing you already dead.

That is not challenge that is absurd.

Personally they don't need fixing. I have soloed EE ToEE and Orchard quests myself, these quests require much higher defenses to complete than other quests. When I hit level 28 for the first time on my final build (15/4/1 Paladin/Ranger/Fighter), I got completely slaughtered in those quests. After making changes like switching from KoTC t5 to Sacred Defender t5, switching from THF to TWF, and getting better gear, these quests are now completely doable with 240~ PRR, 140~ MRR, 1600~ HP, 223 AC, and a little bit of planning. The quests are intended to be very difficult to complete, and in that I believe they have succeeded their design goals since that much defensive investment is needed. As an aside to any responses that the above build is just defense or any nonsense like that, my level 28 DPS with the above stats hovers around 6000; it's just a matter of knowing why your DPS is what it is and cutting out things that don't contribute significantly.

As an aside, monks are not in a very good place at the moment. I played through ToEE pt. 1 the other day on Epic Elite with a player on Cannith I know to be very skilled (Many EE runs, including things like HH and raids) and he died 5 times, which is probably more than I've seen him die in 3-4 years combined. Consider investments like Earth Stance, 3 levels of fighter/paladin, or (improved) combat expertise, all of which can add significant survivability.

As another aside, in case I came off abrasive (Reading through I don't think it is, but it's late so I don't trust my judgement) I've played with the OP and know him to be a good shuricannon player (assuming that's still his build; EE wheloons and stuff). The ramp between standard Epic Elites like Wheloon, Stormhorns, or the newer devil quests and ToEE and EE orchard is similar to the jump from EH to EE though, and as such a lot of people who I see perform perfectly fine in normal EEs have terrible performance in the harder quests.

[Andrash]

.....meanwhile, back on the forums.

-game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy-game is made harder on elite only-game needs to be fixed so elite is easier again-refuse to play normal or hard even when conditions in those difficulties mirror the way I want them on elite.

Chehantamo

[Jiirix]

EE Necro4 and ToEE are doable in a group and I can live with challenge BUT the challenge should come for different sources and should be beatable with a wider scope of tactics. That all challenge comes only from some heavy hitting melee mobs and there are only a few ways to scope with them is boring and imbalanced. As the DEVS already told us that those mobs are out of line I guess they will fix them with the next update.

[ned_ellis]

I got my first EE completion on TOEE part 2 yesterday. It was with a pug I was on my first life barbarian I was one of 2 players with no deaths in part one. And was second in kills I think. I have however many times completed part one on EE. part 2 I and every one else died multiple times in the end fight but there were only one or two deaths before that. It was a strong group with several good builds and Fairly regular consecrate healings, and a cleric fighters healing aura going off on the 4 meles. My barb has decent not uber gear lay out and hasn't even maxed L.D. yet which he was running in at lvl 3 :D. only 2 First tier twists available. My character contributed aoe dps and thats about it. The other players were all good. but the party synergized well. 4 meles. A barb a vanguard pali. A cleric fighter healer tank. A freeze bard buff machine warchanter in D.C. with awesome fascinates. A pali rogue heavy repeater and a monkcher shuricannon. The party played well. never agroing more than one group of mobs ata time. and supported one another with team play. This on a pug! It was Great. I know this wasnt your experience with this quest all i can suggest is maybe team composition and or tactics could be improved.

I'm very jealous - sounds like an epic evening of questing! I wish it was more the norm but sadly even guild/friends seem more intent on power-tr'ing and being 'the best'...let's hope the incentives to grouping make this more common.

[Vanhooger]

Personally they don't need fixing. I have soloed EE ToEE and Orchard quests myself, these quests require much higher defenses to complete than other quests. When I hit level 28 for the first time on my final build (15/4/1 Paladin/Ranger/Fighter), I got completely slaughtered in those quests. After making changes like switching from KoTC t5 to Sacred Defender t5, switching from THF to TWF, and getting better gear, these quests are now completely doable with 240~ PRR, 140~ MRR, 1600~ HP, 223 AC, and a little bit of planning. The quests are intended to be very difficult to complete, and in that I believe they have succeeded their design goals since that much defensive investment is needed. As an aside to any responses that the above build is just defense or any nonsense like that, my level 28 DPS with the above stats hovers around 6000; it's just a matter of knowing why your DPS is what it is and cutting out things that don't contribute significantly.

As an aside, monks are not in a very good place at the moment. I played through ToEE pt. 1 the other day on Epic Elite with a player on Cannith I know to be very skilled (Many EE runs, including things like HH and raids) and he died 5 times, which is probably more than I've seen him die in 3-4 years combined. Consider investments like Earth Stance, 3 levels of fighter/paladin, or (improved) combat expertise, all of which can add significant survivability.

As another aside, in case I came off abrasive (Reading through I don't think it is, but it's late so I don't trust my judgement) I've played with the OP and know him to be a good shuricannon player (assuming that's still his build; EE wheloons and stuff). The ramp between standard Epic Elites like Wheloon, Stormhorns, or the newer devil quests and ToEE and EE orchard is similar to the jump from EH to EE though, and as such a lot of people who I see perform perfectly fine in normal EEs have terrible performance in the harder quests.



I am not saying that Necro IV & Toee are impossible to complete, if you pay attention you can even solo them..well solo could be even easier due to not scaling damage.
All I'm saying here is that increasing hp/damage is not the right thing to give player challenge, but just the easiest approach probably.

Do you guys honestly think that increasing hp/damage/save is the only way/better way to challenge player? So once we hit lvl 30 and we got more power mob should hit for 1k per hit plus 100 at any save + 32498574334 hp?

[AzureDragonas]

I use traps in EE ToEE on my rogue/monk/paladin. It's about the only CC that DOES work, because the DC is 95+.

Web, Hypnotism, and Halt Undead traps are the best. Damage traps are pointless.

Fun is last life i farmed Toee EE p1 while using paralyzing arrows on 50 dc and i succeded all the time unless monsters had fom whick some does how you need 2x more dc of working effect beats me

[AzureDragonas]

I am not saying that Necro IV & Toee are impossible to complete, if you pay attention you can even solo them..well solo could be even easier due to not scaling damage.
All I'm saying here is that increasing hp/damage is not the right thing to give player challenge, but just the easiest approach probably.

Do you guys honestly think that increasing hp/damage/save is the only way/better way to challenge player? So once we hit lvl 30 and we got more power mob should hit for 1k per hit plus 100 at any save + 32498574334 hp?

I agree at some points about need of AI updating but about toee and necro4 being to hard is just too much, after necro4 was out on my warchanter wiht guildies and friends we did even GOP with 0 deaths even farmed it ee, so if somone says they had decent group which died 10+ each and says that quests too hard i would say, it's just about right with right ppl including tank dps cc heals, as old times where you can't zerg and for that pug group of glass cannons or all way dps ignoring other stats i would say they deserve to wipe multiple times, if can't plan or prepare in davance for end game hardest lvl quests.

[pitong]

i don't know how toee works, but if you have problems in ee necro and as your signature says, you're triple completionist, you clearly do something wrong.



Moreover I consider that binding of items must be destroyed.

[Vanhooger]

I agree at some points about need of AI updating but about toee and necro4 being to hard is just too much, after necro4 was out on my warchanter wiht guildies and friends we did even GOP with 0 deaths even farmed it ee, so if somone says they had decent group which died 10+ each and says that quests too hard i would say, it's just about right with right ppl including tank dps cc heals, as old times where you can't zerg and for that pug group of glass cannons or all way dps ignoring other stats i would say they deserve to wipe multiple times, if can't plan or prepare in davance for end game hardest lvl quests.

I agree, hardest quest shouldn't be zergable as everything else.

Dying in the hardest content it's ok, even multiple time.

My point is the way it happen. Now you feel just threatened if a mob can kill you in 2 shot, that's it.

I'd like to see some player immunity removed, like item with perma fom, ench with perma knock immunity etc. I would like to see mob use different tactics, stun, trip, aoe stun, different spell selection.
I would like to see them use flesh to stone/ prismatic ray with no save/ dancing ball / dragon breath(more often)/ energy burst if too many palyer around the caster/ hold / disjunction and fod as a combo maybe, hearthquake. Archers that pin or make you helpless or make you lose fort on hit doing sneck attack damage. Assassin that actually assasinate you if you don't have super high spot skill, mobs that use spcial ability with no save that can be handled only with a specific solcial ability(end fight of prove your worth)etc etc.
I could go on and on how to improve the combat that is not just hp/damage increase.

[Vanhooger]

i don't know how toee works, but if you have problems in ee necro and as your signature says, you're triple completionist, you clearly do something wrong.

Try to read the thread again, it probably help. Thanks

[pitong]

I'm surprised you guys still think that ddo can be "fixed". Bugs and bad designs are piling up, player base is so big, that there are times when there are no groupings at all (of course if someone clears bugged, empty ones), power creep is over the roof, pvp is non-existent and with current hp/damage is impossible.

This game is dying.

[Urjak]

No need for fixing - it is good that at least a few quests on their hardest difficulty setting are actually hard ... if you don't want to run hard content, 99.9% of the game is easier than EE ToEE, EE Necro IV, EE Shavarath and EE Gambit ... 'nuff said

[AtomicMew]

It sounds like several people need to play on a lower difficulty setting. If you can't beat the game on the hardest difficulty - seriously, just play on epic hard and stop trying to ruin the challenge for other people.

Alternatively, you could also apply some teamwork and strategy. Have a tank grab aggro while DPS comes in from behind. Have casters/ranged spike down high priority targets. Pull small amounts of mobs at a time so that fights are more manageable. Etc.

Most MMOs don't simply allow for players to rush in with no preparation or forethought. And yes, in most MMOs if you just rushed in and started DPSing, you'd die. This game was actually like that at one point too, and that is how it should be.

There's lots of things in this game that I can't do and none of it results in me asking for the content to be nerfed.

[Vanhooger]

I will appreciate if you guys read the thread before commenting with "if you can't handle EE just do EH".

[AzureDragonas]

It sounds like several people need to play on a lower difficulty setting. If you can't beat the game on the hardest difficulty - seriously, just play on epic hard and stop trying to ruin the challenge for other people.

Alternatively, you could also apply some teamwork and strategy. Have a tank grab aggro while DPS comes in from behind. Have casters/ranged spike down high priority targets. Pull small amounts of mobs at a time so that fights are more manageable. Etc.

Most MMOs don't simply allow for players to rush in with no preparation or forethought. And yes, in most MMOs if you just rushed in and started DPSing, you'd die. This game was actually like that at one point too, and that is how it should be.

There's lots of things in this game that I can't do and none of it results in me asking for the content to be nerfed.

Aggreed some ppl already have easy time on most ee even farming it for items, exluding necro4 and ToEE where are at least some tactics needed and it's challanging, all ee should be same way, EE never should have been for pugs or anyone to be able run solo or w/e old epics were harsh making many unable to play if not geared properly or group leader didn't picked all peaces needed to run. Right now most ee are done by first 5 who hit to join or even soloed. This is bad design current ee should be same as old epic or similiar to necro4 or toee in some extent with easier difficulty settings for orthers who can't go there yet, but right now people still thinks they should be able run ee on any build no matter what they do.

[Vanhooger]

Aggreed some ppl already have easy time on most ee even farming it for items, exluding necro4 and ToEE where are at least some tactics needed and it's challanging, all ee should be same way, EE never should have been for pugs or anyone to be able run solo or w/e old epics were harsh making many unable to play if not geared properly or group leader didn't picked all peaces needed to run. Right now most ee are done by first 5 who hit to join or even soloed. This is bad design current ee should be same as old epic or similiar to necro4 or toee in some extent with easier difficulty settings for orthers who can't go there yet, but right now people still thinks they should be able run ee on any build no matter what they do.

Try to remove some player immunity and you'll see people die without the need of big hitting mob. But of course people in this thread will say no, because they like they're OP toon. All they can say is drop to EH, big hitting mob are just fine. At this point I hope they seriosly think on put mob that hit for 1k per hit next update as we have so many skilled player in this thread :)

[Holymunchkin]

Did run full chain EE with guild few days ago, and it's ridicolous that they hit for 400 non champ. Champ hit in between 500 to 700 per hit with 100 prr on a robe user.
In toee if you got more than 1 archer in each mob group you're going to die in 3-4 hit each one of those is 100-150 if champ 200+ x arrow.
Cheked combat log all normal hit no crits with 190% fort.

For a melee mean the time you need to face him and start swing you already dead.

That is not challenge that is absurd.

The absurd is what makes challenge.
We've been doing pt2 temple solo nodes on ee farming (get friends for endfight or just start over). It's nice when you have a partner but not needed.
If you pull mobs to where archers can't hit, you'll be fine. Then clean up archers.
Only time I've been having an issue in necro4, is when people get cocky with the levers near the end of fleshmaker, or pulling red DA inferno.

The problem is yours IMO. Play harder my friend.

[Vanhooger]

The absurd is what makes challenge.
We've been doing pt2 temple solo nodes on ee farming (get friends for endfight or just start over). It's nice when you have a partner but not needed.
If you pull mobs to where archers can't hit, you'll be fine. Then clean up archers.
Only time I've been having an issue in necro4, is when people get cocky with the levers near the end of fleshmaker, or pulling red DA inferno.

The problem is yours IMO. Play harder.

Sure, I am still noob sorry. I would like to learn something if you wish to teach me thanks.

[Holymunchkin]

AI need a complete rework.

I believe that is beyond them at this point, but I agree.

[Holymunchkin]

Stunning shield in Necro 4. 90% of the stuff is immune.

It works on everything still. Right?

[AzureDragonas]

In my case i offen even forgot most of buffs which leads to deaths like shield fom, resistance, protection from evil etc. Resistance are needed so there would be distinguish difference by those who care for buffs and those who don't so first group could survive where second would die. And for challange yes sometimes getting hit by stupid tons of damage irritates, but at same time it's more rewarding and enjoyable to play those quests when just run pass cleaving all mobs in way with no care in a world. For acher part in toee damage is ridicilous but that what makes game interesting as Holymunchkin mentioned advanced groups will pull behind walls kill melees and deal with archers later when they come to you. It same design with those who cryes about casters being OP and unable to even use simple tactics as retreat (suffers from same issue) not knowing that you can back off

[Holymunchkin]

if you pay attention you can even solo them..well solo could be even easier due to not scaling damage.

Yes!

[Holymunchkin]

Sure, I am still noob sorry. I would like to learn something if you wish to teach me thanks.

Meh. I know you're a good player. Just sayin suck it up. =)

[BigErkyKid]

The absurd is what makes challenge.
We've been doing pt2 temple solo nodes on ee farming (get friends for endfight or just start over). It's nice when you have a partner but not needed.
If you pull mobs to where archers can't hit, you'll be fine. Then clean up archers.
Only time I've been having an issue in necro4, is when people get cocky with the levers near the end of fleshmaker, or pulling red DA inferno.

The problem is yours IMO. Play harder my friend.

By play harder you mean play a FOTM cookie cutter build?

[Holymunchkin]

By play harder you mean play a FOTM cookie cutter build?

There are variety of builds at endgame which possess both optimal damage and defense. Some are older, some are newer. I'm not interested in people's uniquely gimp variants.

[AzureDragonas]

By play harder you mean play a FOTM cookie cutter build?

I think he means issues are at your end, FOTM cookie cutter builds are changing some dying new appearing it's result of building posibilities and mixing when some builds works better than others, if game would ever reach point where any build would be at same term or grounding in quests that would be nightmare. For those who have no gear, no pl, and even builds for fun they test shouldn't be able to do same as those who have all mentioned points.
I doubt that after working so hard to get pl, gear making decent build you would like to get beaten in hardest quests by sorcs/wiz builds slashing in ee content with kamas becouse somone wanted that build to work.

Game is designed that those who plan get gear and any kind of bonuses they can achieve they will be better, same as when someone good creates and idea, when realize build which works well, others start copying it and thats how new OP builds are born

[BigErkyKid]

There are variety of builds at endgame which possess both optimal damage and defense. Some are older, some are newer. I'm not interested in people's uniquely gimp variants.

The issue here is not people using weird / stupid build choices, rather that no matter how you build them, some classes / archetypes are just plainly inferior in this iteration of "end game".

By moving towards impossibly high DCs, and amazingly high damage in melee the pool of "good" builds keeps shrinking. Together with quest / raid design based on red named(hello DoJ!), big packs of mobs everywhere (screw you if you don't have beautiful AoE DPS), and DPS / raw survivability being the only condition to complete quests, we have a game that moves in a bad direction.

But I guess that builds like the juggernaut, the centered kensei, or the punchy monk are just begging to be gimp and deserve to die.

[Ellihor]

Hey Vanooner. I understand the problem but I like how hard this stuff is. I disagree with what you say about DEVs raising the damage and HP. The options they have to make it challenging instead of doing that is giving special attacks to mobs, and they have been doing that for a long time and it is only frustrating. Specially crowd control effects against players. Only quest they sucedded was ToEE part2 with Zugg's beam and the mushrooms you have to clear, but having that kind of mechanic in every quest would become very annoying.

That said I agree with the spike damage being too high. They have to keep the damage high, but don't make it spike. Being one shoted is ret4rded, and doesn't make anything hard or challenging, it just makes it a lottery. Winning the lottery is not hard nor challenging, you just have to buy a ticket.

[nokowi]

i don't know how toee works, but if you have problems in ee necro and as your signature says, you're triple completionist, you clearly do something wrong.



Moreover I consider that binding of items must be destroyed.

This is not true. Read this thread and you see the simple solution is to switch your Pally to 240 PRR and 140 MRR with 1600 HP. Not all classes can do this.

While I LIKE the challenge on my 20 rogue (90 PRR 90 MRR, 1000 HP --> maxed out stats), the current system vastly favors high PRR/MRR builds. What do these builds give up for high PRR/MRR? Nothing. This is bad game design where only a few builds can succeed much easier on the hardest content. The top level of gameplay should be about character skill with all stats maxed for a particular build, not simply the choice of a top PRR/MRR build.

IF FOTM builds are going to be challenged, they can't be this much better than other builds. The same builds with high PRR/MRR also have high dps, and fantastic saves. There is no way to challenge them without saying "only 1-2 builds work with high levels of challenge".

Dev's have to choose between building a game for the few players with top builds (pally/warlock) and gear/past lives, and making a game for all the players with top gear/past lives and great builds for their class.

[Kadrios]

The options they have to make it challenging instead of doing that is giving special attacks to mobs, and they have been doing that for a long time and it is only frustrating. Specially crowd control effects against players.

when you say these attacks are frustrating, is it because it interrupts (for a second or two) your ability to run through the quest/smash the mobs to the floor etc., or because these attacks, combined with high spike damage amounts lead to character deaths with limited way round it (for example mobs of archers with crippling shot and high damage amounts so you don't have the ability to duck back behind a corner before getting killed)?

I'm genuinely interested.

[nokowi]

Fun is last life i farmed Toee EE p1 while using paralyzing arrows on 50 dc and i succeded all the time unless monsters had fom whick some does how you need 2x more dc of working effect beats me

My guess is your rate of fire is high and mobs roll a 1.

Web is not very effective at DC 105 in EE ToEE.

[Vanhooger]

Finally I see some constructive comment and not "if you can't handle elite do EH" :)

[Raithe]

...the current system vastly favors high PRR/MRR builds.

No, it doesn't. It's vastly simpler, easier, and quicker to use Shiradi effects (or fascinate). What Turbine doesn't get and apparently will never get is that this is (more than just partially) a melee game, or it was supposed to be. While taking 5 shuriken throwers into a quest makes the difficulty drop to the floor, it's not exactly happening on a regular basis - because their playerbase isn't that interested.

The Temple of Elemental Evil update introduced quite a bit of AI changes. Instead of mobs charging right at you making them easy to hit with spells, some mobs will charge while others hang back and range. The combination can be quite lethal because your highest damage AoE attacks aren't doing as much damage and you are basically taking damage from the moment you come into spotting distance. Wide open spaces become your friend in that situation because you can circle the charging mobs into the ranging mobs. Or you can bunny hop and heal while using improved precise shot.

While the AI changes are welcome, the excessive damage garbage was put in place because of Turbine's unwillingness to lower the relative damage of missile attack and the longevity of spell attack. Plus they refuse to fix the ridiculous crowd control implementation of Shiradi. You can solo the Temple of Elemental Evil on Epic Elite with a bard in Shiradi using Fascinate, and without much else except maybe a good ranged weapon (Mortal Fear comes to mind).

[mutilador]

Dev's have to choose between building a game for the few players with top builds (pally/warlock) and gear/past lives, and making a game for all the players with top gear/past lives and great builds for their class.

This, the end game content is made for builds that not everyone enjoy to play.

Require over 250 PRR and over 1000 hp for everyone in the group is bs. I'm not saying you should bring any gimp toon but some builds can't get that high specially after the last nerfs.

Getting 1 shot by trash mobs and not be able to land a single dc ability/spell with close to max dc's is dumb. Dc's are fine in necro not in toee.

If they want to test it just use the freaking test server for it.

And tell people to run normal or hard is bs because the mobs do no damage, no loot drop, no fun...

One last thing, they ruined the drop rate too. I did run necro 4 EE several times with full groups in the last few days and nobody is getting any named loot.

[nokowi]

Finally I see some constructive comment and not "if you can't handle elite do EH" :)

If you come to the forums demanding the game be changed to you, you deserve this type of comment.


If you consider how the game also affects other builds/players (including top build/player), then you deserve constructive feedback.

[nokowi]

Getting 1 shot by trash mobs and not be able to land a single dc ability/spell with close to max dc's is dumb.

.

While you are agreeing with me, I have to disagree with this statement. I don't believe anyone with a reasonable build is being one-shot. Nobody that I am aware of has posted a screenshot showing this will happen.

My max hit (non crit) ever taken in Necro IV is 687 HP with only 70 PRR (at char level 27). I can build in enough PRR to drop this to around 600 damage (was being lazy with gear since I level so fast). This will not one-shot a well built squishy rogue. (I had 800+ HP at level 27 in Shadowdancer Destiny).

[Vanhooger]

If you come to the forums demanding the game be changed to you, you deserve this type of comment.


If you consider how the game also affects other builds/players (including top build/player), then you deserve constructive feedback.

It's not for me at all, I can do those quest anyway as most people, like I said. One or 2 shot is not challenging is dumb.

[Kadrios]

My max hit (non crit) ever taken in Necro IV is 687 HP with only 70 PRR (at char level 27).


And you don't see the issue with a standard mob having the potential to be able to deal non-crit damage that equates to around 25% of the max hp of the tankiest builds (which typically have between 1600 and 2000 hp), and up to 90-95% of the health of most casters/speciailists in one hit?

[nokowi]

And you don't see the issue with a standard mob having the potential to be able to deal non-crit damage that equates to around 25% of the max hp of the tankiest builds (which typically have between 1600 and 2000 hp), and up to 90-95% of the health of most casters/speciailists in one hit?

I do see the problem, and I have posted so in the thread. Those claiming one-shots, when they may not actually happen, cheapen the argument of those of us who actually want better game design. We have to start by being honest. If people complain about Necro IV, and I can say specifically to build above 700 HP with 70 MRR, and they are at least getting valuable feedback. From here, we can discuss better implementation. Good game design can't be based on mis-statements and overstatements.

You have some nice factual information in your statement. Now we can talk about alternatives and solutions, rather than complaining about the problem (which will solve nothing).

[Vanhooger]

I do see the problem, and I have posted so in the thread. Those claiming one-shots, when they may not actually happen, cheapen the argument of those of us who actually want better game design. We have to start by being honest. If people complain about Necro IV, and I can say specifically to build above 700 HP with 70 MRR, and they are at least getting valuable feedback. From here, we can discuss better implementation. Good game design can't be based on mis-statements and overstatements.

Ok let's say 2 shot. Problem still.

[nokowi]

Ok let's say 2 shot. Problem still.

So what's your solution?

[Hobgoblin]

when i was soloing ee fleshmakers - just to test it - this was my take -

normal golems were hitting me for 2-300 champs were hitting me for 500-700.

so it was workable - as long as i didn't have more then 1 champ at a time

i completed without major issues - but it was a slow slog. it was better then not doing it, but not worth soloing. so maybe worth it?

[mutilador]

While you are agreeing with me, I have to disagree with this statement. I don't believe anyone with a reasonable build is being one-shot. Nobody that I am aware of has posted a screenshot showing this will happen.

My max hit (non crit) ever taken in Necro IV is 687 HP with only 70 PRR (at char level 27). I can build in enough PRR to drop this to around 600 damage (was being lazy with gear since I level so fast). This will not one-shot a well built squishy rogue. (I had 800+ HP at level 27 in Shadowdancer Destiny).

Necro is a mess some mobs hits for 20 damage and others close to 1k.

I took 900ish damage by a ghost in gop. Regular trash not a champ, i can't recall my prr but it was around 50.

Whats the point to have bosses in those quests if the trash mobs are harder to kill?

[Vanhooger]

So what's your solution?
I am not a game programmer but probably a redesigned mob AI could maybe solve it at least partially.

[Kadrios]

or one shot with a crit.

But anyway. I'd much rather see a sizeable reduction in mob damage, combined with an increase in special attacks, and CC, and non-zerg completion requirements. since TR'ing recently, I've been running a lot of low-mid level heroic quests, and remembered how much more enjoyable they were compared to a lot of epic quests which seem to be mostly a matter of running in a fairly linear fashion killing things to completion. Slows, Obscuring mists, glitterdusts and the like, combined melee/ranged CC as well would add a fair bit to quests in my opinion (assuming was damage was reduced appropriately such that the upswing of CC usage didn't just result in being unable to react to massive amounts of mob damage.

[nokowi]

My solution is to reconfigure the PRR curve (less defense) and then give players the option at every level to increase a choice of

+2 Spell Power
+1 MP
+1 RP
+5 MRR
+5 PRR

This would essentially let high PRR/MRR players build back to what they have now (if they want to), while giving all toons the option of offense vs defense.

[BigErkyKid]

So what's your solution?

Design the game better?

I mean seriously, do we have to do all the work for turbine? We can provide feedback, but we are not getting paid to tell them what to do.

It is broken, and their balance passes are not achieving the goal.

Now what do they suggest?

[nokowi]

Necro is a mess some mobs hits for 20 damage and others close to 1k.

I took 900ish damage by a ghost in gop. Regular trash not a champ, i can't recall my prr but it was around 50.

Whats the point to have bosses in those quests if the trash mobs are harder to kill?


Boss vs champ difficulty is a separate issue from overall difficulty. I agree with you.

I am guessing you can build more than 50 PRR (although it may take past lives).

[nokowi]

Design the game better?

I mean seriously, do we have to do all the work for turbine? We can provide feedback, but we are not getting paid to tell them what to do.

It is broken, and their balance passes are not achieving the goal.

Now what do they suggest?

It is INCREDIBLY hard to make changes that don't "ruin" existing builds. Someone will always be negatively affected by any change.

The best answer would be to start off with intelligent game design, which means not listening to the "I want X because so and so has X" crowd.

[nokowi]

Design the game better?

I mean seriously, do we have to do all the work for turbine? We can provide feedback, but we are not getting paid to tell them what to do.



DO you realize how few people run this game?

The many players who play this game 20-40+ hours a week should have much better insight into what works for them much better than a few game developers who may not want to spend their entire life programming and playing/testing the same game. They probably want to get away from DDO when they go home.

We, as players, could meet them half way and at least talk about solutions.

[hit_fido]

i completed without major issues - but it was a slow slog. it was better then not doing it, but not worth soloing. so maybe worth it?

Sounds like this is what Epic Elite should be. A very tough difficulty to solo? Requiring care and more tactics than zerg, collect & aoe.

You had to take at least enough care to limit your exposure to champions (1 at a time). You still "completed without major issues". Seems like you're describing more or less the lower end of what Epic Elite should be.

[legendkilleroll]

I mean seriously, do we have to do all the work for turbine? We can provide feedback, but we are not getting paid to tell them what to do.

It is broken, and their balance passes are not achieving the goal.



LOL

The balance passes have all been made OP because of the playerbase, especially the loud forum people like yourself

Self heals and Crit range/multipliers are what people cried for, its not til after it live and that class becomes OP that people then start blaming the devs

[nokowi]

Sounds like this is what Epic Elite should be. A very tough difficulty to solo? Requiring care and more tactics than zerg, collect & aoe.

You had to take at least enough care to limit your exposure to champions (1 at a time). You still "completed without major issues". Seems like you're describing more or less the lower end of what Epic Elite should be.


Most top builds can achieve this status. For some builds, this quest is still too easy --> therein lies the problem.

Build Choice >> All past lives and skill. This is bad game design when entire classes get eliminated, or require much more skill in the same top-challenge content.

[mutilador]

Boss vs champ difficulty is a separate issue from overall difficulty. I agree with you.

I am guessing you can build more than 50 PRR (although it may take past lives).

I could get higher prr but it was a build just to get some past live fast. I didn't planned to use it as end game build.

My prr was really low and i had around 750hp but i had more than 50% of the kills in every quest.

Thats not my point, as some people are pointing the game is getting dumber.

We need better AI and tactics, just toss 20 toee archers in every corner is not hard. This is just plain stupid.

[Holymunchkin]

Self heals and Crit range/multipliers are what people cried for, its not til after it live and that class becomes OP that people then start blaming the devs

+1. And this point is not a seperate issue.

The inflation of mob HP/damage following gear/enhacement/feat/destiny inflation is not easy.

Finding a sweet spot is terrible to program.

Can anyone recall a sweet spot?

Recall when WGU came out. WGU had an appropriate balance for casters, melee, ranged. It was a slog (without a good blitzer) but it was a great quest. Something you felt like you achieved.

Then mortal fear was released with nightmares nerfed. (What will we see next?)
Rampant cheating lead to a big power increase almost overnight.
Caster DC's scooted up.

Quest was still pretty challenging.

I think the moment that it got broken?...
Armor up.

No longer was crowd control needed for the endless mobs on top the mountain. Just wade into them and hold down mouse 1 while paying decent attention to the heal key.

Melee power exacerbated this.

Then you get Barb update with Sestra doing it in under 20min (if I recall correctly). The TWF silver flame chugging barb took 60min to do this, a year earlier.
Keep in mind that this quest was still part of our "endgame" content, and still is today.

I feel that when it was released it was balanced. Now? A joke for good players. Still pays xp.

[nokowi]

We need better AI and tactics, just toss 20 toee archers in every corner is not hard. This is just plain stupid.

Agreed, but this cant happen until saves are balanced. You cant do this without "ruining" someones build.

I find it ironic that the same people crying for challenge (I'm not talking about anyone in this thread), won't allow the actual changes that need to be made to create challenge (for all, not just them).

[Vanhooger]

Just a very simple example on how to make a warlock die easily. Target is save, usually not great.

I was running ee WGU never died till end. Then boom I got stoned at least 5 time on top of the glacier, by the end boss ending up with 3 death.

I know you can go DC and be immune, but at least you got a choice, less dps but immune to stone or better dps but probably you need to accept if you die in the end fight.

Just saying, mob needs to target player weakness.

Also remove all the knockdown immunity & perma fom, and you'll see people dying without big damage number.

[nokowi]

+1. And this point is not a seperate issue.

The inflation of mob HP/damage following gear/enhacement/feat/destiny inflation is not easy.

Finding a sweet spot is terrible to program.

Can anyone recall a sweet spot?

Recall when WGU came out. WGU had an appropriate balance for casters, melee, ranged. It was a slog (without a good blitzer) but it was a great quest. Something you felt like you achieved.

Then mortal fear was released with nightmares nerfed. (What will we see next?)
Rampant cheating lead to a big power increase almost overnight.
Caster DC's scooted up.

Quest was still pretty challenging.

I think the moment that it got broken?...
Armor up.

No longer was crowd control needed for the endless mobs on top the mountain. Just wade into them and hold down mouse 1 while paying decent attention to the heal key.

Melee power exacerbated this.

Then you get Barb update with Sestra doing it in under 20min (if I recall correctly). The TWF silver flame chugging barb took 60min to do this, a year earlier.
Keep in mind that this quest was still part of our "endgame" content, and still is today.

I feel that when it was released it was balanced. Now? A joke for good players. Still pays xp.

Well said. If we could go back in time, armor up could have offered much less mitigation (25-30%?) so that it solved more problems than it created, and we would have a more balanced game than we have now.

Giving everyone 40% mitigation while some builds have 70% mitigation means that someone takes 2x as much damage. That difference should have only be 25-30% more/less damage taken, rather than 100% more/less, with additional HP's providing the toughness.

[Grailhawk]

Just a very simple example on how to make a warlock die easily. Target is save, usually not great.

I was running ee WGU never died till end. Then boom I got stoned at least 5 time on top of the glacier, by the end boss ending up with 3 death.

I know you can go DC and be immune, but at least you got a choice, less dps but immune to stone or better dps but probably you need to accept if you die in the end fight.

Just saying, mob needs to target player weakness.

Also remove all the knockdown immunity & perma fom, and you'll see people dying without big damage number.

I would rather be one shot then stoned knowing I'm going to die because no one will save me.

Your idea to remove immunities and use save or suck effects is worse then the current one or two shot mechanics.

[mutilador]

I don't think we can have balance with all classes, feats, ED's, gear and everything else in this game w/o killing completely the customization.

There's just no way to make everyone happy.

Some people will be able to solo every quest legendary or not.

What we need is a smart and well designed content but this is more expensive to create than a bunch of mobs + a lockpoint, a bunch of mobs + a lockpoint, a bunch of mobs + a lockpoint...

[Vanhooger]

I would rather be one shot then stoned knowing I'm going to die because no one will save me.

Your idea to remove immunities and use save or suck effects is worse then the current one or two shot mechanics.

That's why it's called MMO, other player in party can actually help you.

Maybe if you knocked down, someone can throw an heal.

Maybe if you got stoned someone can free you.

Maybe you could use that caster in the party that do some CC?

Maybe you could use some tactics on how to take down that group of worg, because if you rush in they knock you down and you're dead.

No one is going to save you because this game became just too much about self sufficent than helping each other.
But this apparently turn out on latest EE raid like mod were cooperation was needed and I saw people helping each other again.

Maybe is not just run dps cocoon, run dps cocoon

You got chance to survive.

[Grailhawk]

That's why it's called MMO, other player in party can actually help you.

Maybe if you knocked down, someone can throw an heal.

Maybe if you got stoned someone can free you.

Maybe you could use that caster in the party that do some CC?

Maybe you could use some tactics on how to take down that group of worg, because if you rush in they knock you down and you're dead.

No one is going to save you because this game became just too much about self sufficent than helping each other.
But this apparently turn out on latest EE raid like mod were cooperation was needed and I saw people helping each other again.

Maybe is not just run dps cocoon, run dps cocoon

You got chance to survive.

Tactics are good, needing to pull less mobs because the pack is too strong for the party is good, needing to cooperate with party members to maximize efficiency is good (too a point I do not want this to become a trinity game where every one must fill a defined tank-heal-dps role).

Save or suck effects are as good as being one shot most time in this game even when people are trying to help you out in things like raids, getting stoned or webed or danced sucks I would much rather be one shot and raised then sit there waiting hoping praying that the timer runs out and I don't get killed because I can not take any action.

If there is a mob that can one or two shot me I can take a tactical approach beating him and play a don't get hit game using the active combat style ddo allows for.

If a mob can stone/dance/incapacitate me the second it sees me I have no recourse other then to get better gear/pl/power to over come the mobs roll and save.

In ddo I would rather dance around the mob not letting it hit me then have to grind out more gear to over come a gear check.

[Vanhooger]

Tactics are good, needing to pull less mobs because the pack is too strong for the party is good, needing to cooperate with party members to maximize efficiency is good (too a point I do not want this to become a trinity game where every one must fill a defined tank-heal-dps role).

Save or suck effects are as good as being one shot most time in this game even when people are trying to help you out in things like raids, getting stoned or webed or danced sucks I would much rather be one shot and raised then sit there waiting hoping praying that the timer runs out and I don't get killed because I can not take any action.

If there is a mob that can one or two shot me I can take a tactical approach beating him and play a don't get hit game using the active combat style ddo allows for.

If a mob can stone/dance/incapacitate me the second it sees me I have no recourse other then to get better gear/pl/power to over come the mobs roll and save.

In ddo I would rather dance around the mob not letting it hit me then have to grind out more gear to over come a gear check.


You finally need to choose, should I dump some dps and maybe get that epic destiny feat called forced escape?

Should I get the Harper pin with favor?

Should I remove that seeker item in favor of save item?

Should I spend 10k remanant on that fom bottle instead then more dps tome?

Etc etc.

As it is now some build can have everything. Defenese/dps/save/healing and some can't.

[Grailhawk]

You finally need to choose, should I dump some dps and maybe get that epic destiny feat called forced escape?

Should I get the Harper pin with favor?

Should I remove that seeker item in favor of save item?

Should I spend 10k remanant on that fom bottle instead then more dps tome?

If there are no immunities like you suggested FOM will not work, I've always take a resistance item over a seeker item in the long run its worth more there are some effects that we can not be immune to and they need good saves no one playing the game today says you don't need good saves. Removing immunities is not a good way to add more challenge to the game.


As it is now some build can have everything. Defenese/dps/save/healing and some can't.

It won't be long before all builds can have it all. This is the path that the devs are on IMO given how old DDO is and how low the population is that's not a bad thing waiting for a group with the proper classes or roles is not fun much better to just take the first 6 that hit the lfm. What is a problem is that the content is being invalidated and made too easy, we do not need to lower the difficulty of quests where mobs actually pose a threat. Another issue is that since mobs are no longer a challenge things like CC are not needed (mobs that can one shot any player are a good way to make CC more desirable).

[Vanhooger]

If there are no immunities like you suggested FOM will not work, I've always take a resistance item over a seeker item in the long run its worth more there are some effects that we can not be immune to and they need good saves no one playing the game today says you don't need good saves. Removing immunities is not a good way to add more challenge to the game.



It won't be long before all builds can have it all. This is the path that the devs are on IMO given how old DDO is and how low the population is that's not a bad thing waiting for a group with the proper classes or roles is not fun much better to just take the first 6 that hit the lfm. What is a problem is that the content is being invalidated and made too easy, we do not need to lower the difficulty of quests where mobs actually pose a threat. Another issue is that since mobs are no longer a challenge things like CC are not needed (mobs that can one shot any player are a good way to make CC more desirable).

I mean perma fom effect like boots, not cleric/bard/fvs spell. The bottle only last 10 min and can be dispelled. Otto dance /hold/ stone is all part of D&D DDO, or we want to rename it WOW?
Having to care about save is indeed make you dump some dps, and make caster feel like a real threat to us. I remember there was a time when caster should have been taken care first. Making this change will increase difficulty not lowering it.

[Grailhawk]

I mean perma form effect like boot. The bottle only last 10 min and can be dispelled. Otto dance /hold/ stone is all part of D&D DDO, or we want to rename it WOW?
Having to care about save is indeed make you dump some dps, and make caster feel like a real threat to us. I remember there was a time when caster should have been taken care first. Making this change will increase difficulty not lowering it.

This is as bad a suggestion as removing poison and disease immunity back in U14. It will just add something far more annoying then being one shot.

[Vanhooger]

This is as bad a suggestion as removing poison and disease immunity back in U14. It will just add something far more annoying then being one shot.

Lol. Look like everything annoy you. You want god mode or what? :)

[silinteresting]

a interesting thread so far but i would like to point out a few things.

1) players are unwilling to change there play style no matter what the content.

2) players are unwilling to change destinies and twists to suit the content they are running.

3) players are unwilling to change there enhancements to suit the content they are running.

4) players dont think enough about what to bring to the quest in the way of scrolls, wands etc etc.

5) players dont carry different gear choices(set up) for different quests.

the above are 5 easy things that players can change to help themselves but 99% and i do mean 99%
are totally unwilling to change anything to help themselves and companions complete a quest. all they
want to do is run with minimum gear choices and in there prefered destiny at all times.

lets just take wgu as a example as its been mentioned in this thread. we all know that there is a chance to
be turned to stone so why arnt people changing destiny to suit the quest ?. why dont people carry stone
to flesh scrolls ? both of these are very easy to do but people wont for some reason. if 3 people in that quest
out of 6 carry them scrolls then there is not a problem. is there ?.

as far as im concerned these are the things that need to change first before we start moaning about what the
devs need to change. its peoples mentality that are stoping them completing quests not the quests.

your friend sil :)

[Vanhooger]

a interesting thread so far but i would like to point out a few things.

1) players are unwilling to change there play style no matter what the content.

2) players are unwilling to change destinies and twists to suit the content they are running.

3) players are unwilling to change there enhancements to suit the content they are running.

4) players dont think enough about what to bring to the quest in the way of scrolls, wands etc etc.

5) players dont carry different gear choices(set up) for different quests.

the above are 5 easy things that players can change to help themselves but 99% and i do mean 99%
are totally unwilling to change anything to help themselves and companions complete a quest. all they
want to do is run with minimum gear choices and in there prefered destiny at all times.

lets just take wgu as a example as its been mentioned in this thread. we all know that there is a chance to
be turned to stone so why arnt people changing destiny to suit the quest ?. why dont people carry stone
to flesh scrolls ? both of these are very easy to do but people wont for some reason. if 3 people in that quest
out of 6 carry them scrolls then there is not a problem. is there ?.

as far as im concerned these are the things that need to change first before we start moaning about what the
devs need to change. its peoples mentality that are stoping them completing quests not the quests.

your friend sil :)

That's became a reality, because everyone has to be self sufficent so it is supposed that you turned into stone it's you're problem only. LOL
I feel guilty too, because I do that too, but the state of the game doesn't encourage changing the way we play.
players are unwilling to change things because most quest are easy enough, if they start dying maybe they start tinking about what you said, I guess.

[Grailhawk]

Lol. Look like everything annoy you. You want god mode or what? :)

No that's you.

I find the Necro IV quest perfectly fine as they are. I'm not asking the devs to change anything and normally ask for more difficulty. I just don't want the current immunizes I've built into my character to be taken away nerfed. That nerf would annoy me.

A Nerf that wouldn't annoy me is removing all +1 crit multipliers from classes, or halving all MP, PRR, or MRR currently in the game.

Getting stoned/danced/held the minute I walk too a room is not fun its less fun when two days ago wouldn't happen. Walking into a room and having a mob take 75% off my red bar that wakes me up and puts me on my tows reacting to what said mob is doing while trying to incapacitate/beat him down that's a fun and active experience. Unlike being stoned and just sitting there waiting spamming the heal button in the hopes that I live through this.

[Vanhooger]

No that's you.

I find the Necro IV quest perfectly fine as they are. I'm not asking the devs to change anything and normally ask for more difficulty. I just don't want the current immunizes I've built into my character to be taken away nerfed. That nerf would annoy me.

A Nerf that wouldn't annoy me is removing all +1 crit multipliers from classes, or halving all MP, PRR, or MRR currently in the game.

Getting stoned/danced/held the minute I walk too a room is not fun its less fun when two days ago wouldn't happen. Walking into a room and having a mob take 75% off my red bar that wakes me up and puts me on my tows reacting to what said mob is doing while trying to incapacitate/beat him down that's a fun and active experience. Unlike being stoned and just sitting there waiting spamming the heal button in the hopes that I live through this.

Ok just remove all mob that are caster done. Jou won't be annoyed anymore. LOL
You say you want more difficulty and you don't want to lose you're immunities, that seems legit.
You just dont want to give up dps, because I wrote some way to get free from cc and maybe kill caster as first target.

[AzureDragonas]

a interesting thread so far but i would like to point out a few things.

1) players are unwilling to change there play style no matter what the content.

2) players are unwilling to change destinies and twists to suit the content they are running.

3) players are unwilling to change there enhancements to suit the content they are running.

4) players dont think enough about what to bring to the quest in the way of scrolls, wands etc etc.

5) players dont carry different gear choices(set up) for different quests.

the above are 5 easy things that players can change to help themselves but 99% and i do mean 99%
are totally unwilling to change anything to help themselves and companions complete a quest. all they
want to do is run with minimum gear choices and in there prefered destiny at all times.

lets just take wgu as a example as its been mentioned in this thread. we all know that there is a chance to
be turned to stone so why arnt people changing destiny to suit the quest ?. why dont people carry stone
to flesh scrolls ? both of these are very easy to do but people wont for some reason. if 3 people in that quest
out of 6 carry them scrolls then there is not a problem. is there ?.

as far as im concerned these are the things that need to change first before we start moaning about what the
devs need to change. its peoples mentality that are stoping them completing quests not the quests.

your friend sil :)

For ppl like these who are shortmineded and just wanna go havoc cleave there is best difficuly ever, normal, which requires no thinking compared to ee, and they should stay put there till they mature, i don't see a point why somone who is at this low level of understanding of tactics defense and how to survive have right to cry that he dies in again HARDEST game difficulty and it should be nerfed to his childish level. EE should be difficulty for those who are wiling to invest use tactics and use team composite, and not just blindly zerg. Otherwise those who does it have left? leave to a more challanging game like already most did? Old Epics was fun old epics was challanging in old epics melee without cc and heals was dying, and healer,casters was "taking" theyr time, all roles had meaning. Now it's comparison who can zerg it faster.

[Grailhawk]

Ok just remove all mob that are caster done. Jou won't be annoyed anymore. LOL
You say you want more difficulty and you don't want to lose you're immunities, that seems legit.
You just dont want to give up dps, because I wrote some way to get free from cc and maybe kill caster as first target.

Just set all mob melee damage to 1 hp per hit then, Jou won't be oneshot anymore. LOL.

If I'm warring FOM boots I'm giving up DPS by not warring better DPS boots. Orcish Privateer boots vs Epic Boots of the Innocent. If I'm warring an item with an immunity on it odds are very good I've given up DPS for it.

Your idea is bad, you may not be able to except that, but its still true.

[Vanhooger]

Just set all mob melee damage to 1 hp per hit then, Jou won't be oneshot anymore. LOL.

If I'm warring FOM boots I'm giving up DPS by not warring better DPS boots. Orcish Privateer boots vs Epic Boots of the Innocent. If I'm warring an item with an immunity on it odds are very good I've given up DPS for it.

Your idea is bad, you may not be able to except that, but its still true.

You should go play an fps instead then a fantasy game where magic is used. You're dps is 0 if you being hold or stoned, like dead.
Is a bad idea for you not for me. Different point of view.

[Grailhawk]

You should go play an fps instead then a fantasy game where magic is used. You're dps is 0 if you being hold or stoned, like dead.
Is a bad idea for you not for me. Different point of view.

You should go play a game where you aren't constantly asking for them to change it too make it easier for you.

[Vanhooger]

You should go play a game where you aren't constantly asking for them to change it too make it easier for you.


Sure right.

[Thrudh]

The absurd is what makes challenge.
We've been doing pt2 temple solo nodes on ee farming (get friends for endfight or just start over). It's nice when you have a partner but not needed.
If you pull mobs to where archers can't hit, you'll be fine. Then clean up archers.
Only time I've been having an issue in necro4, is when people get cocky with the levers near the end of fleshmaker, or pulling red DA inferno.

The problem is yours IMO. Play harder my friend.

This. It's called smart play.

Running away (or at least back around a corner) has always been a good strategy in DDO (and DnD for that matter).

[Thrudh]

I'd like to see some player immunity removed, like item with perma fom, ench with perma knock immunity etc. I would like to see mob use different tactics, stun, trip, aoe stun, different spell selection.
I would like to see them use flesh to stone/ prismatic ray with no save/ dancing ball / dragon breath(more often)/ energy burst if too many palyer around the caster/ hold / disjunction and fod as a combo maybe, hearthquake. Archers that pin or make you helpless or make you lose fort on hit doing sneck attack damage. Assassin that actually assasinate you if you don't have super high spot skill, mobs that use spcial ability with no save that can be handled only with a specific solcial ability(end fight of prove your worth)etc etc.
I could go on and on how to improve the combat that is not just hp/damage increase.

All those are good ideas, but the playerbase would never go for it. I doubt even you would go for it... Because once again, you'd be here complaining about being "one-shotted" when an assassin killed you from stealth or a enemy wizard held you with a no-save spell.

[Vanhooger]

All those are good ideas, but the playerbase would never go for it. I doubt even you would go for it... Because once again, you'd be here complaining about being "one-shotted" when an assassin killed you from stealth or a enemy wizard held you with a no-save spell.

I would be ok with that, because it make sense. That's what an assasin is doing if you can't see him. Want to avoid it? Pump you're social skill spot, and voila spot isn't useless anymore.
For wizard killing with a no save spell I'll be alright. I was doing beyond the rift solo a while ago. At the last drow encounter the wizard sent me on another plane (meaning dead) with prismatic ray. The next run I used PLIS against him and everything was fine. Need to adjust you're gamplay to what mobs are doing. I am not advocating a complete damage nerf never said it. it just need to be toned down a bit.

[Thrudh]

Design the game better?

I mean seriously, do we have to do all the work for turbine? We can provide feedback, but we are not getting paid to tell them what to do.

It is broken, and their balance passes are not achieving the goal.

Now what do they suggest?

LOL.. "It's broken" is not useful feedback...

Especially when none of us on these forums agree if it's even "broken" or not.

I have no problems with Epic Elite on the highest levels in the quest actually being hard.

[slarden]

The absurd is what makes challenge.
We've been doing pt2 temple solo nodes on ee farming (get friends for endfight or just start over). It's nice when you have a partner but not needed.
If you pull mobs to where archers can't hit, you'll be fine. Then clean up archers.
Only time I've been having an issue in necro4, is when people get cocky with the levers near the end of fleshmaker, or pulling red DA inferno.


The nodes are an example of something that is way easier since U28. The elementals do maybe half the damage they used to if even that.

[Grailhawk]

Sure right.

That's what this thread that you started is all about. You take the few places in the game where people can't just run in zerg and kill all mobs and are asking them to make it easier. Aren't you?

[Thrudh]

I would be ok with that, because it make sense. That's what an assasin is doing if you can't see him. Want to avoid it? Pump you're social skill spot, and voila spot isn't useless anymore.
For wizard killing with a no save spell I'll be alright. I was doing beyond the rift solo a while ago. At the last drow encounter the wizard sent me on another plane (meaning dead) with prismatic ray. The next run I used PLIS against him and everything was fine. Need to adjust you're gamplay to what mobs are doing. I am not advocating a complete damage nerf never said it. it just need to be toned down a bit.

I think you and I agree on a lot of things... But why can't you just adjust your gameplay to the fact that some mobs do a ton of damage?

[Vanhooger]

That's what this thread that you started is all about. You take the few places in the game where people can't just run in zerg and kill all mobs and are asking them to make it easier. Aren't you?

No

[Vanhooger]

I think you and I agree on a lot of things... But why can't you just adjust your gameplay to the fact that some mobs do a ton of damage?

Because some specific build have big advantage over other that can't get very high prr. Not everyone like to play same high prr build that's it. As I said, I don't want a complete nerf, just tone them down a bit, especially ghost champ at end of ghost.

[Grailhawk]

No

So then what is the point of this thread?

To tell people that Necro IV and ToEE are hard?

[Vanhooger]

So then what is the point of this thread?

To tell people that Necro IV and ToEE are hard?

I just want to talk with you guys other ways to make this game challenging other then just pumping damage/hp each update.

[Thrudh]

Because some specific build have big advantage over other that can't get very high prr. Not everyone like to play same high prr build that's it. As I said, I don't want a complete nerf, just tone them down a bit, especially ghost champ at end of ghost.

There are other ways to deal with high damage mobs than standing in front of 5 of them trading blow for blow.

[Starla70]

I just want to talk with you guys other ways to make this game challenging other then just pumping damage/hp each update.

I agree. I would have liked a "We have been doing some work in Necro 4, let us know what you think." The pumping up damage tends to lead to making new more powerful weapons, which leads to pumping up the damage, which gets us to the point the game is now. If you are one that likes it, good for you. However, there are many players who do not. They have a right to their opinion as well.

[Grailhawk]

Did run full chain EE with guild few days ago, and it's ridicolous that they hit for 400 non champ. Champ hit in between 500 to 700 per hit with 100 prr on a robe user.
In toee if you got more than 1 archer in each mob group you're going to die in 3-4 hit each one of those is 100-150 if champ 200+ x arrow.
Cheked combat log all normal hit no crits with 190% fort.

For a melee mean the time you need to face him and start swing you already dead.

That is not challenge that is absurd.


I just want to talk with you guys other ways to make this game challenging other then just pumping damage/hp each update.

I don't see anything about increasing challenge in the OP all I see is a rant about how these quest are too hard for you, and you don't like dying in 3-4 hits from a mob.

Spin on however you like.

Removing immunities just adds a real one shot mechanic to the game that will be done at range, which can not be avoided with smart play leaving only a gear check.

[Vanhooger]

There are other ways to deal with high damage mobs than standing in front of 5 of them trading blow for blow.

You're right, but I don't really like it. That is my personal opinion. I see challenge in a different way, other than just massive damage.

[Qhualor]

I agree. I would have liked a "We have been doing some work in Necro 4, let us know what you think." The pumping up damage tends to lead to making new more powerful weapons, which leads to pumping up the damage, which gets us to the point the game is now. If you are one that likes it, good for you. However, there are many players who do not. They have a right to their opinion as well.

Actually, a dev has said once or twice they would like feedback on ENecro and TOEE.

[Basura_Grande]

A few mobs are out of whack, that's about it.

[mutilador]

A few mobs are out of whack, that's about it.

This. If it's a test why they don't test in the test server?

If they know that some mobs are broken why they don't fix it?

[slarden]

Actually, a dev has said once or twice they would like feedback on ENecro and TOEE.

It's kind of like the bug reporting system, it doesn't mean they will do anything with it just because they ask. Here is the response I received in response to a bug reporting using the in-game system. Note the part in bold - it doesn't exactly give you confidence the issue will ever be looked at.

Greetings Randowl,
Thank you for contacting Turbine with your report. We value our player's input and appreciate your taking the time to provide Turbine with your valuable feedback.

We're sorry that you are experiencing this difficulty, but we appreciate your contacting us to make us aware of this and the issue you have reported is under investigation.

The report you have submitted here was done via the "Report a Bug" form, which will not necessarily result in a timely response or resolution to your issue. On the "Report a Bug" page, this information is reiterated for your convenience. While we may investigate reports submitted via the 'Report a Bug' form, QA cannot resolve individual or character issues in game or on the forums.

Best wishes,

Dungeons and Dragons Online
Quality Assurance Team

[Starla70]

Actually, a dev has said once or twice they would like feedback on ENecro and TOEE.


Yes they have. Trust me I have given it. My issue is you give honest feedback (which I see as your opinion, and what you as a gamer thought of it) and you get totally jumped on. I agree with Vanhooger on this. The changes to those quests are not what I think of as a challange, so I am free to just not play them. There is plenty of other stuff to do. I do believe the mobs need to be toned down some. Players who take their main toon in which is at least 4th life and well gear, tend to not like getting one shot. If you do, you will love these quests with a full group. If you solo, it seems not much of a change, it is the dungeon scaling I think that is off for groups.

[Basura_Grande]

If they know that some mobs are broken why they don't fix it?

Old problem, it takes Turbine far too long to fix stuff. Just look at wolf and tree builds.

[BigErkyKid]

DO you realize how few people run this game?

The many players who play this game 20-40+ hours a week should have much better insight into what works for them much better than a few game developers who may not want to spend their entire life programming and playing/testing the same game. They probably want to get away from DDO when they go home.

We, as players, could meet them half way and at least talk about solutions.

Solutions? They need to suggest them, we can then talk about them. Because they suggest few to non, we have these conversations in the general forums and get eaten up by the trolls.

Solution 1: reduce the saves.

It is insane the level they have reached. Even if casters landed a lot of their spells they wouldn't be as OP as the current grinding machines that melees are.

Solution 2: reduce the amount of mobs

Tactics with a high cool down are close to useless because fights are short and against giant packs of mobs and tactics are long cool downs and single target for the most part. Adjust mob number / tactic cool down to a level that makes some sense.

Solution 3: reduce the HPs of bosses

The ratio of trash mob / boss is better in heroics. A boss is 3-4 times the HPs of a trash mob. That way not specializing in raw DPS isn't as punishing.

Solution 4: write encounters that aren't face rolled

Without just making them 2 shots. A good example is the fight in schemes of the enemy. They wear you down, they don't just two shot you.

There.

[Qhualor]

Yes they have. Trust me I have given it. My issue is you give honest feedback (which I see as your opinion, and what you as a gamer thought of it) and you get totally jumped on. I agree with Vanhooger on this. The changes to those quests are not what I think of as a challange, so I am free to just not play them. There is plenty of other stuff to do. I do believe the mobs need to be toned down some. Players who take their main toon in which is at least 4th life and well gear, tend to not like getting one shot. If you do, you will love these quests with a full group. If you solo, it seems not much of a change, it is the dungeon scaling I think that is off for groups.

I agree. I hear the PC forums has actual discussions unlike a lot of the general forums. Must be nice.

Here's the problem with increasing mob hit points and mob damage similar to what is seen in ENecro. Players invest in as much survivability and dps as possible. In a very encouraged solo game like DDO, even in a 6 man group, strategic play is not communicated and used. The attitude of getting the quest done and hurry up to kill mobs can make for sloppy play resulting in many deaths and over use of resources. If a path of least resistance can be used (invis, ledges, abusing AI, etc), it becomes standard play and expected eventually in noral grouping. This can be seen still today in DDTW and Sleeping Dust, even though those quests aren't that tough anymore.

What we need is some real imagination by the devs, but it all depends on coding and the time it takes to implement. In some cases I can understand increased mob hit points and damage as long as it's on par with character power. As it is right now, it looks to me that most lfms are EN instead of EE since the changes. At the same time, I do see most IP TOEE lfms that start short man. Looks like there still needs some work to do to find the sweet spot.

[Thrudh]

Solution 2: reduce the amount of mobs

Tactics with a high cool down are close to useless because fights are short and against giant packs of mobs and tactics are long cool downs and single target for the most part. Adjust mob number / tactic cool down to a level that makes some sense.

You can do this yourself with smart play... You expect all fights to be short.... but hard fights are not necessarily short. Manage aggro wisely. Single target tactics are indeed still useful if you don't take on 20 mobs with 3 guys.

What I keep hearing is "I cannot be expected to change my zerging style of play in any way. Challenge me please, but fights must remain short. There can't be too many mobs since my tactics are single-target, but the mobs can't have too many hps either since that is boring."



Solution 3: reduce the HPs of bosses

The ratio of trash mob / boss is better in heroics. A boss is 3-4 times the HPs of a trash mob. That way not specializing in raw DPS isn't as punishing.

That's a good idea.

[Wipey]

My last run in EE necro 4 was brutal. Had a full party of time tested veterans. we had all done the dance in ee many times before. The first run was EE Flesh. We knew we needed to protect the cleric, but this was a completely different kind of brutal. When was the last time it took a multi PL group with complete tier gear 45 %$#@& minutes to get though an EE Fleshmakers?
Full party of time tested veterans ? Oh my, nice !
I hope your multi PL group DID protect the poor cleric .

In similar whiny thread two weeks ago vanguard (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467628-Legendary-content-the-death-nail-to-all-melee-builds?p=5722047&viewfull=1#post5722047) got called cheese build with tower shield and assassin (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467628-Legendary-content-the-death-nail-to-all-melee-builds?p=5722563#post5722563) was skipping too many mobs. Since you need fotm build here's Flavour of the decade™ fvs lol.

Proper melees smash EE Necro in 10 mins ( and without the end runes fail haha )


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7PMHhbDGAU

[Blastyswa]

I am not saying that Necro IV & Toee are impossible to complete, if you pay attention you can even solo them..well solo could be even easier due to not scaling damage.
All I'm saying here is that increasing hp/damage is not the right thing to give player challenge, but just the easiest approach probably.

Do you guys honestly think that increasing hp/damage/save is the only way/better way to challenge player? So once we hit lvl 30 and we got more power mob should hit for 1k per hit plus 100 at any save + 32498574334 hp?

I certainly would be happy with difficulty being reached with different game mechanics. However, there's still the problem of the players that can already do this content. My current build can solo ToEE in about 50 minutes killing everything he see's running one of the shortest paths, without DD or paying to skip fire, and with the last 20 minutes being meleeing the air elemental at the very end. If they reduce HP from mobs and decrease damage, there will no longer be any difficult content for anyone who is able to do it at the increased difficulty. If you could provide examples of ways that you would improve difficulty without raising damage or health I'd love to respond to those, but the one's I can think of would be:
1. More resistances on enemies in the form of AC/PRR/MRR. This one would be pretty pointless, since all it does is raise the effective HP of the enemy unless more debuffs to those stats are added, but figured I'd include.
2. Add in more tactics. Archers already apply hamstring quite a bit and melees go for stuns, but the volume of tactical skills could be increased. I'm not a big fan of this one, since at a certain point all builds are required to pack no fail on a 1 for Fort/Reflex/Will saves or auto-lose with any amount of defense due to sheer volume of rolls against them.
3. Different quest mechanics. This could take the shape of many different things, including the randomization of some quests/traps to reduce the benefit of meta-knowledge. In reality true randomization would probably not be reached, and what would actually happen is meta-knowledge would mean knowing all possible spawn locations (Like Foundation of Discord traps, or Cry for Help) but adding this one in more would still be useful.

Those are the one's that come to mind. If you have any other ideas, I'd love to see them.

[Holymunchkin]

+1 Wipey, fun stuff as always

Your ToEE pt1 solo pre-tempest buff should also be mentioned

[PsychoBlonde]

The high-level content has been increasingly unfun since Shadowfell came out, IMO.

Granted, there's plenty of older content that is tiresome and unlovely (it's amazing how many level 8 quests are basically rooms full of obnoxious undead).

Maybe I'm just getting old and tired and cranky.

[mutilador]

Full party of time tested veterans ? Oh my, nice !
I hope your multi PL group DID protect the poor cleric .

In similar whiny thread two weeks ago vanguard (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467628-Legendary-content-the-death-nail-to-all-melee-builds?p=5722047&viewfull=1#post5722047) got called cheese build with tower shield and assassin (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467628-Legendary-content-the-death-nail-to-all-melee-builds?p=5722563#post5722563) was skipping too many mobs. Since you need fotm build here's Flavour of the decade™ fvs lol.

Proper melees smash EE Necro in 10 mins ( and without the end runes fail haha )


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7PMHhbDGAU

Great video but again you missed the point, like in the other thread.

It's pointless to argue with some people in this forum.

[PsychoBlonde]

1. More resistances on enemies in the form of AC/PRR/MRR. This one would be pretty pointless, since all it does is raise the effective HP of the enemy unless more debuffs to those stats are added, but figured I'd include.
2. Add in more tactics. Archers already apply hamstring quite a bit and melees go for stuns, but the volume of tactical skills could be increased. I'm not a big fan of this one, since at a certain point all builds are required to pack no fail on a 1 for Fort/Reflex/Will saves or auto-lose with any amount of defense due to sheer volume of rolls against them.
3. Different quest mechanics. This could take the shape of many different things, including the randomization of some quests/traps to reduce the benefit of meta-knowledge. In reality true randomization would probably not be reached, and what would actually happen is meta-knowledge would mean knowing all possible spawn locations (Like Foundation of Discord traps, or Cry for Help) but adding this one in more would still be useful.

This is all you can come up with? How about:

1. Mobs that can do catastrophic damage--but only if the character can't spot them or otherwise force them to "reveal" themselves.
2. Caster mobs that can "charge" attacks up to do massive damage, but can be interrupted.
3. Instead of increasing mobs-per-encounter, increase the sight/hearing range on mobs so if you get loud you risk pulling several encounters at once.
4. Have mobs that are designed to flee and grab other encounters to help out when they get wounded.
5. Mobs that can throw down traps.
6. More environmental hazards like static webs, pools of necrotic energy, etc. Stuff that requires environmental awareness. Preferably aimed toward debuffs rather than just haha u died.
7. Mobs that passively buff or heal other mobs as long as they're alive. Actually, they've done some of this (spotter drones, etc.) The design was dumb, though, because they gave the drones so many hp that it wasn't worth the effort to kill them.
8. Mobs that can go invulnerable when standing still. (Makes crowd control rather unpredictable.)
9. Mobs that become invulnerable when moving. (Makes kiting unpredictable.)
10. Mobs that can cleave so their attacks can hit multiple characters (damage scales but is distributed).
11. Mobs with no-save attacks that you have to block to resist.
12. Mobs that give stacking debuffs so you have to trade threat around in order to fight them.
13. Mobs that are buffed by certain kinds of attacks.
14. Mobs that require the use of an in-quest consumable to render them vulnerable.
15. Mobs that summon helpers that buff them (as some of the bosses in the Rushmore's Mansion challenges).

And that's not even getting into the many elements of quest design.

[Ellihor]

when you say these attacks are frustrating, is it because it interrupts (for a second or two) your ability to run through the quest/smash the mobs to the floor etc., or because these attacks, combined with high spike damage amounts lead to character deaths with limited way round it (for example mobs of archers with crippling shot and high damage amounts so you don't have the ability to duck back behind a corner before getting killed)?

I'm genuinely interested.

Thanks for interest in my post. No, it is frustrating because this kind of special attacks creates a situation where you save of die, and that's not fun. I'm all for less dependency on character sheet and more on the player skill. Most of the alternative attacks does not make player skill matters more, except a few like the ones I cited (ToEE2 endfight, for example). In fact, they do the opposite: they make you more dependent on having saves to avoid them or having huge hp and prr to swallow them.

[Ellihor]

While you are agreeing with me, I have to disagree with this statement. I don't believe anyone with a reasonable build is being one-shot. Nobody that I am aware of has posted a screenshot showing this will happen.

My max hit (non crit) ever taken in Necro IV is 687 HP with only 70 PRR (at char level 27). I can build in enough PRR to drop this to around 600 damage (was being lazy with gear since I level so fast). This will not one-shot a well built squishy rogue. (I had 800+ HP at level 27 in Shadowdancer Destiny).

Keep in mind you are not at full hp most the time. The average of mlee hp now is 1200, before MotU it was 600. Having trash hitting for almost 700 nowadays is as ridiculous as having them hitting for 350 before U14. Not even epic elite lord of blades hitted that hard.

[Qhualor]

Full party of time tested veterans ? Oh my, nice !
I hope your multi PL group DID protect the poor cleric .

In similar whiny thread two weeks ago vanguard (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467628-Legendary-content-the-death-nail-to-all-melee-builds?p=5722047&viewfull=1#post5722047) got called cheese build with tower shield and assassin (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467628-Legendary-content-the-death-nail-to-all-melee-builds?p=5722563#post5722563) was skipping too many mobs. Since you need fotm build here's Flavour of the decade™ fvs lol.

Proper melees smash EE Necro in 10 mins ( and without the end runes fail haha )


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7PMHhbDGAU

I did watch the video all the way through. you do show some skill and know what you are doing, but look at how much damage you took from the mobs. each hit was a massive spike damage that almost killed you in 2-3 hits most times. this is the point that some are trying to make. you showed quick reaction getting away from the mobs using wings when you were cornered and immediately healed to full hp. you cant stand toe to toe with those mobs like a barb or fighter would need to do. they would hit a mob 1/2/3 times than have to back away running to heal back up and that's a one on one fight not including multiple mobs beating on you and casters blasting at you. it makes it so Consecrated Ground is highly desirable and investing in as much defense and dps as possible without really hurting the build limiting the options for those kinds of melees. if more quests were designed around ENecro like that, we would see the rise of ranged builds like we saw before Armor Up.

don't take this as me putting down the video because im not. I just wanted to tell you the point that is trying to be made in this thread. I personally would like to see the damage dropped down 1 notch and that probably would be enough to still make it challenging while giving players an extra second or two to react to the incoming damage while encouraging teamwork and tactical play. Concentration still needs to also be addressed more seriously to increase options for players.

[AtomicMew]

you cant stand toe to toe with those mobs like a barb or fighter would need to do.

Some builds perform better than others in some situations. Necropolis is only one case where it can be argued that casters preform better. In most cases, there are tons of examples of melee builds way outperforming casters and/or ranged.

[Ellihor]

Full party of time tested veterans ? Oh my, nice !
I hope your multi PL group DID protect the poor cleric .

In similar whiny thread two weeks ago was skipping too many mobs. Since you need fotm build here's Flavour of the decade™ fvs lol.

Proper melees smash EE Necro in 10 mins ( and without the end runes fail haha )

And, just like in the other thread, you just used it to promote yourself. I'm 100% sure Vanhooger can solo those quests on EE, so do mutilador, so do I and probably the other people discussing here that I don't know in game can do it too. And in better time than that. Stop being lame, and give a constructive argument. It was already said in the thread the problem is not that the quests are incompletable.

[Qhualor]

Some builds perform better than others in some situations. Necropolis is only one case where it can be argued that casters preform better. In most cases, there are tons of examples of melee builds way outperforming casters and/or ranged.

in a lot of cases melees do, at least until the caster passes. however, we aren't talking about those other quests right now.

[Holymunchkin]

I personally would like to see the damage dropped down 1 notch and that probably would be enough to still make it challenging while giving players an extra second or two to react to the incoming damage while encouraging teamwork and tactical play. Concentration still needs to also be addressed more seriously to increase options for players.

I believe there is a contradiction in this statement.
Until people are penalized for making and playing toons that can't stand toe-to-toe, then CC will never be required.
CC is the backbone of teamplay IMO.

As far as options go...
...you can go back to EH.

Maybe EH should be made harder. (I certianly feel that this is the case.)

[Holymunchkin]

And, just like in the other thread, you just used it to promote yourself. I'm 100% sure Vanhooger can solo those quests on EE, so do mutilador, so do I and probably the other people discussing here that I don't know in game can do it too. And in better time than that. Stop being lame, and give a constructive argument. It was already said in the thread the problem is not that the quests are incompletable.

Not all arguments have to be constructive---or no one would disagree with OP or various points. It is a strawman to say he's doing it for "self-promotion." You can see he's responding to someone's complaining that "veterans" have a hard time. I found his post very humorous. People who complain the game is too hard feel entitled to nerfs. Keep in mind---I completely agree that 1shotting is bad, but if a FvS isn't being one-shot then I'm pretty sure a barb can solo this toe-to-toe with everything. Maybe not zerging like a moron---and maybe with ear smash. But that's the point. Tactics are good.

[mutilador]

And, just like in the other thread, you just used it to promote yourself. I'm 100% sure Vanhooger can solo those quests on EE, so do mutilador, so do I and probably the other people discussing here that I don't know in game can do it too. And in better time than that. Stop being lame, and give a constructive argument. It was already said in the thread the problem is not that the quests are incompletable.

I could but i have friends to play with, i just don't need or care enough to solo anymore.

And one more time i'm not asking for nerfs to any build.

Everybody that play this game for a few years know how frustrating is to have your favorite build nuked.

We are just asking for smart challenges not those trash mobs on crack.

[Qhualor]

I believe there is a contradiction in this statement.
Until people are penalized for making and playing toons that can't stand toe-to-toe, then CC will never be required.
CC is the backbone of teamplay IMO.

As far as options go...
...you can go back to EH.

Maybe EH should be made harder. (I certianly feel that this is the case.)

as I pointed out in a post above, if ENecro damage spikes continue into other quests, we will see front line melees become less relevant not able to stand ground to throw some punches and ranged will take its place like we saw before Armor Up. it will be only the S&B type builds that would have any real chance of surviving causing less options for players. I would like for players to rely more on CC, but its my understanding from reading these threads and seeing it in the ENecro quests with groups the DCs are too high to work well.

from what im seeing on the lfm panel and hearing from players in game, a lot are running ENecro on EN not hard. to me, 2 hits from those mobs that causes players to run and heal only able to get a couple swings in isn't what I call a balanced challenge.

[Raithe]

Some builds perform better than others in some situations. Necropolis is only one case where it can be argued that casters preform better. In most cases, there are tons of examples of melee builds way outperforming casters and/or ranged.

Please give us your best shot at that, because when I did my Youtube/video searching it was usually some sort of caster (typically Shiradi) that both made the quest look easy and had the fastest time.

The excessive damage is a knee-jerk reaction to casters, shuri-builds, and other semi-exploits making their game look stupid. I could find a thousand examples like the one that Wipey posted. The logic that seems to fail for metagaming developers is they tend to try to make the environment more restrictive when there is an imbalance in performance. Back in 2007, it was the rogue trap DC fiasco. Thousand upon thousands of people were clearly frustrated by the difficulty of getting their rogue into a group because at that time rogues often had fewer hit points than wizards (requisite stats and what not). So what did Turbine do? They raised the DCs of elite traps to the point that halflings couldn't find them anymore - even with the best gear available. It made rogues become completely shunned.

The same thing is happening here. Turbine wanted to make melee tank builds "viable," so they made it harder to be a tank. It's completely backwards logic, but it makes sense to them. Extremely high damage and high mob count means you'll need a tank for sure, right? No, making it harder to be a tank didn't fix anything about what exploits still work, and the best paladins are DPS paladins that will get hammered in Necro IV and ToEE as much as the next melee. Admittedly there aren't enough players for anyone to shun anyone, but the end result is that the content is simply ignored for the most part.



Even if casters landed a lot of their spells they wouldn't be as OP as the current grinding machines that melees are.


You really need to stop assuming that all casters have difficulty in EE level 30+ content. I must have run ToEE EE around 30 times (in a group) when it first came out. In about 10 of the times, it was a Pale Master that did the most damage, sometimes edging out DPS Barbarians. The other 20 times were hands-down in the pocket of some shuriken thrower with Mortal Fear.

[AtomicMew]

in a lot of cases melees do, at least until the caster passes. however, we aren't talking about those other quests right now.

So you agree that melee builds frequently outperform casters. And yet in one quest chain casters perform better, it's a huge problem that requires 8 pages of discussion. Do you understand what you're suggesting? You're suggesting that all builds should be able to perform equally in every quest. No - that's terrible for build diversity and balance.

[Qhualor]

So you agree that melee builds frequently outperform casters. And yet in one quest chain casters perform better, it's a huge problem that requires 8 pages of discussion. Do you understand what you're suggesting? You're suggesting that all builds should be able to perform equally in every quest. No - that's terrible for build diversity and balance.

the only thing ive suggested is decreasing the ENecro damage down 1 notch. I don't know where you got all that other stuff from.

[AtomicMew]

the only thing ive suggested is decreasing the ENecro damage down 1 notch. I don't know where you got all that other stuff from.

Why. If you agree that melee outperform in most quests, why do you have to reduce incoming mob damage even more, which would allow melee to outperform in ENecro too?

[Raithe]

Every quest chain in the game is easiest to clear on a paladin...

This is so absurdly wrong I'm going to dismiss it outright. For starters, a level 6 sorceror is going to wipe the floor with Kobold Assault, so you need a bunch of parameters describing what level limits you are assuming and all the additional parameters to make your statement even generally correct in some glossy indistinct manner.

If you are claiming that a paladin will wipe the floor with ToEE and Necro IV, Epic Elite, I won't dispute that necessarily. I also don't think it's any more common for a Paladin to be able to do it than say, a Druid. The melee-oriented narrow-minded fail to recognize that extremely powerful and efficient healing is basically the same as lots of hit points and PRR/MRR. Anytime it's warranted, the Druid could have a HoT ticking that would require a boatload and a half of damage to overcome. If you don't believe me, compare any fight against a mob with heavy duty healing ability to a similar mob without. You'll be spending a lot more time on the self-healing variety than the tank.

[Qhualor]

Why. If you agree that melee outperform in most quests, why do you have to reduce incoming mob damage even more, which would allow melee to outperform in ENecro too?

I am specifically talking about ENecro which is what the thread is supposed to be about, not other quests.

if, from what I am seeing, those mobs are killing players in 2-3 hits on average giving little to no time to react, than dropping the damage down a little wont suddenly make melees outperform in ENecro. remember that most of the melee classes have had their pass and the blue bars are getting theirs pretty soon. the devs are already making some changes for casters now.

[Spookyaction]

This is happening because the only thing they do to increase challenge is increasing mob damage and hp. AI need a complete rework.

If the AI was reworked so they had brutal trips/stuns/holds/disjunctions/dispells/instakills etc tell me you woudn't be here crying that it's no fun to spent a whole fight on the floor tripped/stunned, held/danced or just cc'd in general. Being killed in 2 attacks does increase difficulty, it makes you think about tactics. Cant just run in to mobs holding down mouse 1 and win anymore. Get over yourself, you dont belong in elite dungeons period. First triple completionist I ever hear of that cries about game difficulty. Many triple dupletionists are in the same boat though because that lack actual gaming experience.

[AtomicMew]

I am specifically talking about ENecro which is what the thread is supposed to be about, not other quests.

But, specifically, for ENecro, it's okay for these quests to be a little bit difficult for melees because they're much better in almost every other quest. So don't nerf it?

[Blastyswa]

This is all you can come up with? How about:

1. Mobs that can do catastrophic damage--but only if the character can't spot them or otherwise force them to "reveal" themselves.
2. Caster mobs that can "charge" attacks up to do massive damage, but can be interrupted.
3. Instead of increasing mobs-per-encounter, increase the sight/hearing range on mobs so if you get loud you risk pulling several encounters at once.
4. Have mobs that are designed to flee and grab other encounters to help out when they get wounded.
5. Mobs that can throw down traps.
6. More environmental hazards like static webs, pools of necrotic energy, etc. Stuff that requires environmental awareness. Preferably aimed toward debuffs rather than just haha u died.
7. Mobs that passively buff or heal other mobs as long as they're alive. Actually, they've done some of this (spotter drones, etc.) The design was dumb, though, because they gave the drones so many hp that it wasn't worth the effort to kill them.
8. Mobs that can go invulnerable when standing still. (Makes crowd control rather unpredictable.)
9. Mobs that become invulnerable when moving. (Makes kiting unpredictable.)
10. Mobs that can cleave so their attacks can hit multiple characters (damage scales but is distributed).
11. Mobs with no-save attacks that you have to block to resist.
12. Mobs that give stacking debuffs so you have to trade threat around in order to fight them.
13. Mobs that are buffed by certain kinds of attacks.
14. Mobs that require the use of an in-quest consumable to render them vulnerable.
15. Mobs that summon helpers that buff them (as some of the bosses in the Rushmore's Mansion challenges).

And that's not even getting into the many elements of quest design.

Thanks for the list; I was in a rush so didn't put a ton of effort into finding a bunch of my own, so I'll give responses to yours.
1. Like increased sneak attack damage basically? With the exception of being disabled completely after first contact that is. This sounds interesting; however, the downside I would see to it would be that randomly getting blindsided and slain because you didn't see the archer in the bushes or the invisible mob running up behind you doesn't sound like much fun (I was also against the initial incarnation of insta-kill champs, I don't like insta-kills). I think that if "catastrophic damage" was equivalent to an insta-kill this would not be a good mechanic, but if it was properly balanced between too much to ignore and not enough to turn every quest into a slow crawl with search, then would be interesting.

2. I like this one. some type of visual indicator that some bad voodoo is about to go down would be very nice as well for this though, like the standard bearhug attack from every game ever where mages think it's a good idea to stick their arms out to the sides and summon balls of energy before they attack (Not making fun of it though, that stance does look pretty cool).

3. Downside of this is I think they've largely removed hearing from mobs, like when throwing/ranged weapons no longer pulled enemies to the sound. If they added in this mechanic, I would want to be able to drag things with ranged sound as well.

4. This is ToEE. I would personally hate a mechanic like this, unless the wounding cap is set relatively low. Upon first getting hit they run away would be lame, but if they ran away at 1/10 or 1/4 HP that would make it easier to utilize proper tactics without trying to figure out how to best avoid any AoE damage whatsoever on enemies.

5. Wheloon trap setting no. Actual tough traps would be interesting though.

6. I would like this a lot. My current build is a TWF Heavy Armor paladin that can go toe-to-toe with red alert ToEE pt. 1 mobs, and I typically set him up in a doorway or a corner to minimize incoming damage. This would also help keep ranged from being the best defense (Although I don't always agree that it is) and make kiting require a little more thought than hold s and LMB at the same time. I think positive ones in addition to negative would actually make a fun entire play setup- patches where hamp or PRR/MRR is increased, or you gain minor overtime healing, vs. debuff type things (I don't like the idea of web, just because being webbed with much EE attention at all is usually the same thing as "haha u died".

7. Yes, drones were a failure. I would love mobs to have auras; my personal idea on this would be that such mobs would have a banner on their back (Or floating over their heads I guess would be fine for design purposes.). Each color would represent a different 10 yard radius buff. Something like red means extra damage, blue means extra PRR/MRR, green means automatic healing, etc.

8. No. The only reason I say that is that it would make playing a static melee impossible when fighting these types of enemies. Sprinting back and forth past a mob trying to get him to follow me would just be an aggravation. Not to mention archers and some spellcasters, who tend to stand still for long periods of time with brief runs in between.

9. Yes. The reason I say yes to this one is that a kiter can shoot a mob in the face if they have to; this mechanic would make squishy kiters have to consider toughening up their builds some for this situation. The reason I like this one and not the above one, despite the fact that most melees will still carry a lever hitting ranged weapon, is that a ranged character can shoot a stationary target with their main weapon just fine, while a melee character can't melee a target easily while running away from them (Possible, but more of a pain than a gameplay challenge).

10. Not sure I'm a fan of this one. I actively use divine righteousness and intimidate in parties myself to pull aggro off whatever squishy fool thinks they can suddenly take frontline aggro; I think cleave attacks would be fine only if intimidate either disabled them, or if intimidate was redesigned to disable damage to other party members while the intimidater is alive.

11. Only if the attacks come on cycles, or with cooldowns. Not a ton of fun sitting there blocking without dealing any damage because you'll get hit by an incredibly vicious attack if you let up. Some type of tell with a 15-30 second special attack would be fine though.

12. Not a fan on this one, unless it was just stacking debuffs without the need to pass aggro. My main character build can build enough aggro fairly quickly to lock an enemy onto him pretty much indefinitely, so this would require squishy characters needing to pack intimidate to pull aggro and me needing to invest in diplomacy. I don't like debuffs in general unless they are somewhat easy to remove, just on the principle that if significant emphasis is placed on whatever measures you're using (defense, offense, utility) having a primary focus of your build disabled is not fun.

13. As long as its not a repeat of the champion resistance type thing. It still annoys me when I run into a slash resistant mob, even though I have celestia, because of the emphasis in Dungeons and Dragons itself, and to a minor degree in DDO, to stick with one weapon primarily and secondarily in the same weapon group. If Improved Critical was a feat that gave extra crit to every weapon that would be different, but as is one weapon type is going to be better. If you're talking about attack types like melee/ranged/spell, I don't think that has much place either since very few builds have a multi-spec in categories like that, and despite forum pressure, I think it's important for standard questing in the game to remain mostly soloable.

14. I'm not personally a fan of this one, just because I already have 15 hotbars and a full backpack at all times. More junk is not appealing for fun.

15. This would be interesting. I also like the idea of summoner enemies that throw respawning enemies at you until you kill the source (Think Haunted Halls Necromancers with zombies).

As I'm typing this, I'm thinking primarily of which ones would be conducive to a fun environment in a game and which one's would not. Opinions obviously may vary, but this is mine, so don't take it too seriously if we disagree on one.

[Astoroth]

.....meanwhile, back on the forums.

-game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy--game is too easy-game is made harder on elite only-game needs to be fixed so elite is easier again-refuse to play normal or hard even when conditions in those difficulties mirror the way I want them on elite.

Maybe you haven't played it in a while. But the golems and such in necro 4 are broken, they can hit for hundreds even in the wilderness or on normal. But to any fan boy its gotta be the posters fault in some way if they complain.

[BigErkyKid]

Please give us your best shot at that, because when I did my Youtube/video searching it was usually some sort of caster (typically Shiradi) that both made the quest look easy and had the fastest time.

The excessive damage is a knee-jerk reaction to casters, shuri-builds, and other semi-exploits making their game look stupid. I could find a thousand examples like the one that Wipey posted. The logic that seems to fail for metagaming developers is they tend to try to make the environment more restrictive when there is an imbalance in performance. Back in 2007, it was the rogue trap DC fiasco. Thousand upon thousands of people were clearly frustrated by the difficulty of getting their rogue into a group because at that time rogues often had fewer hit points than wizards (requisite stats and what not). So what did Turbine do? They raised the DCs of elite traps to the point that halflings couldn't find them anymore - even with the best gear available. It made rogues become completely shunned.

The same thing is happening here. Turbine wanted to make melee tank builds "viable," so they made it harder to be a tank. It's completely backwards logic, but it makes sense to them. Extremely high damage and high mob count means you'll need a tank for sure, right? No, making it harder to be a tank didn't fix anything about what exploits still work, and the best paladins are DPS paladins that will get hammered in Necro IV and ToEE as much as the next melee. Admittedly there aren't enough players for anyone to shun anyone, but the end result is that the content is simply ignored for the most part.



You really need to stop assuming that all casters have difficulty in EE level 30+ content. I must have run ToEE EE around 30 times (in a group) when it first came out. In about 10 of the times, it was a Pale Master that did the most damage, sometimes edging out DPS Barbarians. The other 20 times were hands-down in the pocket of some shuriken thrower with Mortal Fear.

The point is that they modified the dcs in those quests to be insanely high, but not when they were released, afterwards. It is also not true that all the quests saw the same spike in damage changes and also not all the mobs.

Apparently they also dialed back some dcs recently since my bard with perform upwards 90 couldn't reliably stop mobs in toee part 1 and the other day a level 20 bard could.

The frustration in this thread and others is coming from turbine s tendency to increase challenge by making mobs huge hps bags, amazingly high dcs, and super high damage. We saw this in the past and that made shiradi super appealing.

Right now these quests favor toons that do not attempt to reach dcs. The dcs are coded in really awkward ways. They also favor ranged over melee because mobs hit really high in melee. Finally they encourage even more going to certain classes, if you insist on melee, that have a ton of hps and prr. Why? Because it is way easier with them and the likelihood of ending the adventure in s ding is way lower.

This is the state of it, regardless on anyone posting a video of anything soloing those quests.

Now turbine has decided on a development schedule and clearly and is sufficient amount of manpower devoted to ddo. This means that the game is a Gruyere cheese: plenty of exploits around, classes being crab for years, sloppy content never fixed, systems abandoned. Anyone playing the game knows this. The people not being frustrated are those who do not play the game "competitively" or the power gamers just riding the fotm. Through the trivialization of content turbine has allowed for a happy middle class that can play most quests ee and finish without many issues. Hence the king of discussion we are having here loses a lot of meaning for most.

[AzureDragonas]

Personal experience in toee in multiple lifes with guild members, i wont mention names but 2 of guildies are melee fighters
+Wiz ecnahnter necro/shiradi having dc with no full gear yet enough dc to cc ee mod had 70-75 dc
CC worked as long as no fom in that case just orb, was fun till warlocks came out killing mosters faster than dance orb can be casted -sigh
+warchanter having 80-90 freeze dc, almost no fail freezes again dps had no issues to deal with trash monsters were farming toee ee for materials, same as necro4 runing quests with no deaths on ee
+shuriken ranger 50 paralyzing dc again enough to cc groups as long as they dont have fom, and again melees in my guild had no issues to deal with trash, and excuse like 95+ dc not working but against 50 dc paralyzing monsters rolls only 1 all the time is laughable

So again for those spike damage, what i see are some monsters mostly 1-2 in group who can doublestrike with high damage as you say 1-shoot, but at same time they as squishy and dies quick enough if focused, bunch of melees who does avarage damage as proper to that level, and some casters which hardly noticable, and in each life i did toee i had 1 way or another to cc and deal with those trash mobs even without using something broken as wolf/tree/warlock/MF, and again i don't see a point to discuss about that insane damage etc as feedback from ppl, who neither have real clue telling it's impossible dc, or monsters hits to hard, while in reality they either

1. Build only damage exluding all ways to survive prr, mrr, ac, dodge, blur/displacment clickies, ghostly...
2. Goes for dex or other 'weak' scores instead those who gives abilities to survive
3. Maxes 'strange' choices like in defensive stances getting +6 str instead of +6 con - like +3 damage are worth more than let's say over 100+ extra hp
4. Don't even reason in fights - ignores real treat don't take advatages of surrounding like fighting behind pillars or corners to avoid archers
5. zergers pulling too many monsters at a time
6. Casters who refuse to use any kinds of debuffs or even use advatage of spells like web/orb by pulling monsters in prepared trap
7. Blindly piking all possible damage buffs, and then crying monsters are too strong and no one can run those quests

All i see in this thread mostly people "avarage joe" who try to run difficuly they are not prepaired to handle neither mentaly or gear wisely, and asking to "fix" it so they could do it too, while for ppl like these are difficulties like EN and EH suited more. I die there when i made mistakes, and it's better this way that there are quests who shows that wise building including defenses cc etc matters right now. Maybe bunch of dps zergers will die a lot or even wipe, but a balanced group will have easy time even farming those "harsh" difficulties with no big issues, and point in all this before looking for problems in quests first look at your builds what you building using etc and then comment, if not triple completionist on ranger build with no stance etc at 14 have 550 hp and 60+ prr and 30+mrr on light armors and some ppl dont even reach that at epics issue is in you not in game.

Quests are hard as supposed to be for end game, and there is no reason to change anything there. Even better would be to make more quests of end game like this to give some more challanging content at end levels where "avarage joes" coudn't zerg as they please in ee and just zerg en eh, while those who seek challange and prepare for quests would run ee

[Vanhooger]

If the AI was reworked so they had brutal trips/stuns/holds/disjunctions/dispells/instakills etc tell me you woudn't be here crying that it's no fun to spent a whole fight on the floor tripped/stunned, held/danced or just cc'd in general. Being killed in 2 attacks does increase difficulty, it makes you think about tactics. Cant just run in to mobs holding down mouse 1 and win anymore. Get over yourself, you dont belong in elite dungeons period. First triple completionist I ever hear of that cries about game difficulty. Many triple dupletionists are in the same boat though because that lack actual gaming experience.

If they rework the AI and remove some immunities granted permanently to players you won't charge mob, this will add another layer of difficulty but seems hard to understand, I know.
This thread talk about how to give us challenge instead of just pumping damage & hp but...Well you should read the thread again I suppoose.
And yes my triple completionist can only run casual as I am still so noob. Would like to learn from you, when you in game you can give a chance to learn something if you show some tips and tricks. Thank you.

[ned_ellis]

Step 1 : increase drop rates / decrease 'crafting' needs to give even those who don't like toee a reason to run it, especially in heorics!

Step 2 : discuss mob dmg balance...

[AzureDragonas]

Step 1 : increase drop rates / decrease 'crafting' needs to give even those who don't like toee a reason to run it, especially in heorics!

Step 2 : discuss mob dmg balance...

1.st Some ppl like me run EBB temple even dual both parts and have no issues couse it's fun to compared on difficulty needed to other "walkup" quests, where anyone is good. Also increase drop rates, decrease crafting price? I think you dont understand that items there are beasts in comparison i dont even bother to use GS at 12 unless its undead beaters. For like up to lvl 15-18 there are no better weapons to use than temple, having effect which triggers aoe damage for 100-150 in wide radius, and somehow same effect is found only on lvl 20 alchemical house c raid crafting? Lvl 7 weapons have effect of epic weapons??? Anyone, it's enough at heroics to run with couple toee weapons attack mob and all monsters arround dies becouse you rolled 20, single target dps like lit2 is "maybe better" to bosses who have lot of hp. And those still have augment slots to put and bta?

2.nd for mob damage it's issue EE except for necro4 and toee feels more like EN or EH where you can zerg, for couple quests who actualy gives any kind of challange and require decent group not 6 member pug group, to discuss about damage and nerfs needed is pointless, people don't get there are others who run those without exploit have no issues, and those who can't handle it shouldn't even be there. Game have easier difficulties for those who can't go over themselves to actually start aplying tactics and making not full glass cannon builds, but if you can't zerg and apply tactics and teachings of zergers in couple quests where any other quest supports that, best solution might be indeed to blame game. End game raids specialy latest like Doj, Mod showed that damage is most important thing, and there is no need for any tactics or cc. CC caster group who actualy cc mod makes run in same time then zergers who dies 20 times in run by slashing left and right. So quests which requires any kind on cc, tactics, gear, and give real challange should stay as they are now.

[Qhualor]

But, specifically, for ENecro, it's okay for these quests to be a little bit difficult for melees because they're much better in almost every other quest. So don't nerf it?

I don't call every mob in Fleshmakers able to kill you in 2-3 hits difficult. I call that unbalanced. im not trying to say ENecro mob damage should be lowered down to every other epic quest. I actually think the mobs damage in those every other quests generally needs to be raised up. I know this is mathematically incorrect because not everyone has the same defenses, but just to illustrate a point im trying to make. when I say drop down 1 notch I mean like if a mob is hitting you consistently for 600 damage, it should be dropped 1 notch to 500 damage.

[AzureDragonas]

I don't call every mob in Fleshmakers able to kill you in 2-3 hits difficult. I call that unbalanced. im not trying to say ENecro mob damage should be lowered down to every other epic quest. I actually think the mobs damage in those every other quests generally needs to be raised up. I know this is mathematically incorrect because not everyone has the same defenses, but just to illustrate a point im trying to make. when I say drop down 1 notch I mean like if a mob is hitting you consistently for 600 damage, it should be dropped 1 notch to 500 damage.

If you don't mind may i ask on what exactly build you are getting hits like that?

[jalont]

I missed the part where I say I want this game to be easy. All I say challenge should be achieved in a different way then one shot 2 shot mob. But if you guys want to hear that one shot mob is so much fun, well...NecroIV & Toee are so much fun!

If you don't have more than 700 hp on a melee at 28, reroll.

[jalont]

If they rework the AI and remove some immunities granted permanently to players you won't charge mob, this will add another layer of difficulty but seems hard to understand, I know.
This thread talk about how to give us challenge instead of just pumping damage & hp but...Well you should read the thread again I suppoose.
And yes my triple completionist can only run casual as I am still so noob. Would like to learn from you, when you in game you can give a chance to learn something if you show some tips and tricks. Thank you.

Triple completionist or not, you're in here saying content that isn't too hard is. There seem to be a breakdown somewhere. Either you're not as good as you think you are or your vision for the game is one of mindless, endless grind. Either way, this is your problem, not anyone else's. Necro IV and ToEE are not hard.

[Vanhooger]

Triple completionist or not, you're in here saying content that isn't too hard is. There seem to be a breakdown somewhere. Either you're not as good as you think you are or your vision for the game is one of mindless, endless grind. Either way, this is your problem, not anyone else's. Necro IV and ToEE are not hard.

I have no time to answer people who do not read. Everyone here is a shiny awesome player I got it. I call them keyboard lions.
Do you understand that what I'm saying here is just find alternative way to challenge player rather then just use plain hp/damage as always?
Second, look like you guys are more interested on my skill then have a proper discussion.

1st I don't have 600hp
2nd did the wholee chain without dying...happy? Can I join the club of forum uber player now? No, because there is nothing that is challenging on mob that hit for 600+.
It just take 10 min more then any other normal ee quest that's about it. See Wipey video in this thread.

[ned_ellis]

1.st Some ppl like me run EBB temple even dual both parts and have no issues couse it's fun to compared on difficulty needed to other "walkup" quests, where anyone is good. Also increase drop rates, decrease crafting price? I think you dont understand that items there are beasts in comparison i dont even bother to use GS at 12 unless its undead beaters. For like up to lvl 15-18 there are no better weapons to use than temple, having effect which triggers aoe damage for 100-150 in wide radius, and somehow same effect is found only on lvl 20 alchemical house c raid crafting? Lvl 7 weapons have effect of epic weapons??? Anyone, it's enough at heroics to run with couple toee weapons attack mob and all monsters arround dies becouse you rolled 20, single target dps like lit2 is "maybe better" to bosses who have lot of hp. And those still have augment slots to put and bta?

2.nd for mob damage it's issue EE except for necro4 and toee feels more like EN or EH where you can zerg, for couple quests who actualy gives any kind of challange and require decent group not 6 member pug group, to discuss about damage and nerfs needed is pointless, people don't get there are others who run those without exploit have no issues, and those who can't handle it shouldn't even be there. Game have easier difficulties for those who can't go over themselves to actually start aplying tactics and making not full glass cannon builds, but if you can't zerg and apply tactics and teachings of zergers in couple quests where any other quest supports that, best solution might be indeed to blame game. End game raids specialy latest like Doj, Mod showed that damage is most important thing, and there is no need for any tactics or cc. CC caster group who actualy cc mod makes run in same time then zergers who dies 20 times in run by slashing left and right. So quests which requires any kind on cc, tactics, gear, and give real challange should stay as they are now.

1. I quite like toee too but not playing solo (even though I'm being 'forced' to ge used to it) - I have nvr had anyone join my pugs nor have I seen any since the novelty (quickly) wore off - and as a result, seeing as I'm still, slowly, slogging my way to crafting my heroic bow, I realise very well how powerful they are thank you very much. What I fi a little disheartening is that I'm about to tr to my third archer life and I STILL don't have enough 'shrooms t upgrade my bow! Do you think this is wai? I should stress that farming it with a over-lvl toon just for mats is not my idea of fun (and should not be be design prerequisite) and that I am in a guild / run with friends who have no interest whatsoever in running toee (find it boring and/or loot to slow to farm)
2. I had trouble understanding your post but, if I have you right, you seem to presume I don't want tactics, cc, gear, etc. In high difficulty quests? If so you are sorely mistaken-i want more! Or maybe you just thought my comment a soapbox? Regardless, it was an ironic aside to point out that Imo first you need to get ppl to run the quest and only then discuss any mods if needed...

[Qhualor]

If you don't mind may i ask on what exactly build you are getting hits like that?

I wasn't talking about me specifically, just what I have observed in game. I used a made up number to demonstrate the point I was trying to make.

[slarden]

Quests are hard as supposed to be for end game, and there is no reason to change anything there. Even better would be to make more quests of end game like this to give some more challanging content at end levels where "avarage joes" coudn't zerg as they please in ee and just zerg en eh, while those who seek challange and prepare for quests would run ee

I don't think this is the issue in those quests. The problem is the monster statting is all wrong. Some enemies are too easy and some are too hard. In some cases DCs are really high or saves are really high and in other cases it's the opposite.

I would like to see them fix it, but I doubt they will. The end fights in Necro IV EE should be interesting and are boring now. The nodes in TOEE 2 are too easy. Most boss fights are too easy. Archers shouldn't be the toughest enemies in quests.

[AzureDragonas]

1. I quite like toee too but not playing solo (even though I'm being 'forced' to ge used to it) - I have nvr had anyone join my pugs nor have I seen any since the novelty (quickly) wore off - and as a result, seeing as I'm still, slowly, slogging my way to crafting my heroic bow, I realise very well how powerful they are thank you very much. What I fi a little disheartening is that I'm about to tr to my third archer life and I STILL don't have enough 'shrooms t upgrade my bow! Do you think this is wai? I should stress that farming it with a over-lvl toon just for mats is not my idea of fun (and should not be be design prerequisite) and that I am in a guild / run with friends who have no interest whatsoever in running toee (find it boring and/or loot to slow to farm)
2. I had trouble understanding your post but, if I have you right, you seem to presume I don't want tactics, cc, gear, etc. In high difficulty quests? If so you are sorely mistaken-i want more! Or maybe you just thought my comment a soapbox? Regardless, it was an ironic aside to point out that Imo first you need to get ppl to run the quest and only then discuss any mods if needed...

1.st i hardly believe in you or you must be joking, each rare in zone drops on elite 5-10 shrooms and most of times i encounter 5-8 of them with end reward 10-20 shrooms
To make singe weapon you need only 200, and in 1 full run you cna get more than 1/4 need shrooms already if u check entire map.
2.nd irony or not right now in heroics only toee is any kind of challanging to run +5 levels higher sands and killing monsters in 1-3 hits on elite at lvl is not a challange it's a joke, only toee shows how real elite at level should feel

[Wipey]

I did watch the video all the way through. you do show some skill and know what you are doing, but look at how much damage you took from the mobs. each hit was a massive spike damage that almost killed you in 2-3 hits most times. this is the point that some are trying to make. you showed quick reaction getting away from the mobs using wings when you were cornered and immediately healed to full hp. you cant stand toe to toe with those mobs like a barb or fighter would need to do. they would hit a mob 1/2/3 times than have to back away running to heal back up and that's a one on one fight not including multiple mobs beating on you and casters blasting at you. it makes it so Consecrated Ground is highly desirable and investing in as much defense and dps as possible without really hurting the build limiting the options for those kinds of melees. if more quests were designed around ENecro like that, we would see the rise of ranged builds like we saw before Armor Up.

don't take this as me putting down the video because im not. I just wanted to tell you the point that is trying to be made in this thread. I personally would like to see the damage dropped down 1 notch and that probably would be enough to still make it challenging while giving players an extra second or two to react to the incoming damage while encouraging teamwork and tactical play. Concentration still needs to also be addressed more seriously to increase options for players.
But as Tes said earlier, incoming damage has to be huge in order for quests to be difficult.
If we are not getting "2 or 3 shotted" then you could simply herd 20 mobs and aoe them down.

Hmm what other games do I play now, Skyrim, Divinity - Original Sin. Was avid D2 and WoW player long time ago. One failed trap or cc in raid, you are done unless you are the tank.
In any game, higher difficulty always means exponentially higher incoming damage.

Whatever the "point" of these threads is, ability to solo most difficult quests on the highest difficulty is just stupid.
It completely undermines basic mmorpg principles.

Huge damage and real risk of death - that's the only thing that would promote and encourage teamwork in this game again - healing, crowd control, buffs, mob "pulls", tanking. And much bigger survivability difference between "tanky" character and other toons.
But just for elite. Because elite lost its meaning long long time ago.

If people want to play "casually" - normal difficulty should be for that.

[nokowi]

Keep in mind you are not at full hp most the time. The average of mlee hp now is 1200, before MotU it was 600. Having trash hitting for almost 700 nowadays is as ridiculous as having them hitting for 350 before U14. Not even epic elite lord of blades hitted that hard.

I am. If my 80% miss chance fails, I have to instant heal, jump away, or risk death. Its the penalty for having a dodge toon on a real EE. Those of us who like challenge (can I jump away and heal in time), enjoy this type of play.

Those who want a build that always succeeds can go high PRR/MRR and laugh at everyone else (while complaining about lack of challenge).

[AzureDragonas]

There a better thought. To change Diffculty settings.
Elite - toee is like only example on level at heroics how Elite should feel. Same goes for EE in necro4 and Toee
Hard - a bit challanging but nnot too much
normal - a.k.a. as afk beating, your guards kills mobs faster than they ever will
casual - is this difficulty needed at all?

move current elite diffculty to hard, move hard to normal, remove casual or make current normal casual, and add new elite similiar settings effects as toee, make more champs better drop rates on remnants and make first time bonus go like
normal 50%
hard 80% - current elite
elite 100% - small but feelable bonus

So those who runs elite now woudnlt suffer they get theyr elite as hard, while tru elite would be for those who can handle quests like toee at level giving them from heroics at least a bit of challange in other quests than toee

It's a win win situation, current heroic and old epics are too easy compared to new, becouse back then ppl wasn't that strong or knew game so well. So change in this would rrequire updating old quests to current standart of "challanging"

[AzureDragonas]

1. I quite like toee too but not playing solo (even though I'm being 'forced' to ge used to it) - I have nvr had anyone join my pugs nor have I seen any since the novelty (quickly) wore off - and as a result, seeing as I'm still, slowly, slogging my way to crafting my heroic bow, I realise very well how powerful they are thank you very much. What I fi a little disheartening is that I'm about to tr to my third archer life and I STILL don't have enough 'shrooms t upgrade my bow! Do you think this is wai? I should stress that farming it with a over-lvl toon just for mats is not my idea of fun (and should not be be design prerequisite) and that I am in a guild / run with friends who have no interest whatsoever in running toee (find it boring and/or loot to slow to farm)
2. I had trouble understanding your post but, if I have you right, you seem to presume I don't want tactics, cc, gear, etc. In high difficulty quests? If so you are sorely mistaken-i want more! Or maybe you just thought my comment a soapbox? Regardless, it was an ironic aside to point out that Imo first you need to get ppl to run the quest and only then discuss any mods if needed...

Also before i forgot i suggest don't make any ranged in toee, they are terrible, only melee weapons are good any ranged in your case bows, like silver bow in one sided winder compared to toee crafted. even toee itself have named bow better than crafted so look to them.

[Qhualor]

But as Tes said earlier, incoming damage has to be huge in order for quests to be difficult.
If we are not getting "2 or 3 shotted" then you could simply herd 20 mobs and aoe them down.

Hmm what other games do I play now, Skyrim, Divinity - Original Sin. Was avid D2 and WoW player long time ago. One failed trap or cc in raid, you are done unless you are the tank.
In any game, higher difficulty always means exponentially higher incoming damage.

Whatever the "point" of these threads is, ability to solo most difficult quests on the highest difficulty is just stupid.
It completely undermines basic mmorpg principles.

Huge damage and real risk of death - that's the only thing that would promote and encourage teamwork in this game again - healing, crowd control, buffs, mob "pulls", tanking. And much bigger survivability difference between "tanky" character and other toons.
But just for elite. Because elite lost its meaning long long time ago.

If people want to play "casually" - normal difficulty should be for that.

2-3 hits that kill front line melees gives almost no reaction time other than keeping your finger on the heal button and preparing to jump back out of mob range. It doesn't give enough time to really utilize any other melee actions. On a ranged character they have the advantage to kite, insta heal to full hp and do full damage out of mob range. Your video was a good example of the advantages, but also showed how much damage those mobs do when within their range. There were several times you almost died after getting hit just twice resulting you having to wing or jump away imediately and immediately having to hit the heal button. Imagine what it would be like for barbs and fighters that need to be in mob range to do full damage.

I really don't care what other games are doing. I only care what DDO is doing.

I do agree that soloing an EE quest shouldn't be the norm, but I'm not seeing or hearing that many players doing that in ENecro. Most lfms I see now are EN and I see chat channels with players asking for help that used to be able to handle soloing or shortmanning.

I also agree that risk of death should promote teamwork and I also think it's at an all time low today. However, non Champion mobs that kill in 2-3 hits on average is what I consider not a challenge. I still believe a reduction in ENecro mob damage just a little bit gives melees more of a fighting chance while still promoting teamwork and tactical play.

Mob damage in ENecro is its own outlier when comparing it to any other EE quest in its level range since the devs have given those special attention. I do see some players that want elite to be more casual friendly, but in this case, it's a very big difference. All EE quests should have their bar raised comparable to ENecro because it doesn't make sense to have a handful of quests that are well above other EE quests. If all quests were designed the same way with mobs dealing 2-3 hits that kill most builds, than we would see what history has proven to us. Players will build for what is considered the highest dps and survivability, invis past mobs, look for shortcuts, perch spots, not run that difficulty or anything else to avoid as much combat as possible. Eventually that becomes the norm and even if those quests become much easier over time that the majority of players can complete easyish enough, that playstyle gets passed down to future players.

[nokowi]

2-3 hits that kill front line melees gives almost no reaction time other than keeping your finger on the heal button and preparing to jump back out of mob range. It doesn't give enough time to really utilize any other melee actions. On a ranged character they have the advantage to kite, insta heal to full hp and do full damage out of mob range. Your video was a good example of the advantages, but also showed how much damage those mobs do when within their range. There were several times you almost died after getting hit just twice resulting you having to wing or jump away imediately and immediately having to hit the heal button. Imagine what it would be like for barbs and fighters that need to be in mob range to do full damage.

I really don't care what other games are doing. I only care what DDO is doing.

I do agree that soloing an EE quest shouldn't be the norm, but I'm not seeing or hearing that many players doing that in ENecro. Most lfms I see now are EN and I see chat channels with players asking for help that used to be able to handle soloing or shortmanning.

I also agree that risk of death should promote teamwork and I also think it's at an all time low today. However, non Champion mobs that kill in 2-3 hits on average is what I consider not a challenge. I still believe a reduction in ENecro mob damage just a little bit gives melees more of a fighting chance while still promoting teamwork and tactical play.

Mob damage in ENecro is its own outlier when comparing it to any other EE quest in its level range since the devs have given those special attention. I do see some players that want elite to be more casual friendly, but in this case, it's a very big difference. All EE quests should have their bar raised comparable to ENecro because it doesn't make sense to have a handful of quests that are well above other EE quests. If all quests were designed the same way with mobs dealing 2-3 hits that kill most builds, than we would see what history has proven to us. Players will build for what is considered the highest dps and survivability, invis past mobs, look for shortcuts, perch spots, not run that difficulty or anything else to avoid as much combat as possible. Eventually that becomes the norm and even if those quests become much easier over time that the majority of players can complete easyish enough, that playstyle gets passed down to future players.

If all EE quests were like this, we would only have a few tank builds and a few ranged builds in elites. Designing all elites based on 20% of the population (who only play the top FOTM build) would be a sure way to lose players.

I would much prefer players have a choice of EE's so that most everyone can be challenged, and for those who can't handle the top 3% of quests in Necro IV and ToEE, I refer you to the 97% of quests to are mind numbingly boring for top builds. Asking for that 3% to be removed is self-centered and self-serving, particularly when the power creep of U29 is in the works.

Everybody needs to consider others instead of demanding the game be built around them.

Talking about what type of challenge we like is great. Let's have this discussion.

[Qhualor]

If all EE quests were like this, we would only have a few tank builds and a few ranged builds in elites. Designing all elites based on 20% of the population (who only play the top FOTM build) would be a sure way to lose players.

I would much prefer players have a choice of EE's so that most everyone can be challenged, and for those who can't handle the top 3% of quests in Necro IV and ToEE, I refer you to the 97% of quests to are mind numbingly boring for top builds. Asking for that 3% to be removed is self-centered and self-serving, particularly when the power creep of U29 is in the works.

Everybody needs to consider others instead of demanding the game be built around them.

Talking about what type of challenge we like is great. Let's have this discussion.

Again, I am not suggesting ENecro be just like every other epic quest. I am suggesting a better balance the mobs damage dish out. This is why it's so frustrating trying to have a discussion on the forums. I've now repeated this at least 3 or 4 times.

[AtomicMew]

You say:


Again, I am not suggesting ENecro be just like every other epic quest.

But then

I am suggesting a better balance the mobs damage dish out.

So actually, you do want it to be like every other quest by nerfing the difficulty. Do you like to run the exact same thing except in different backgrounds?

[Qhualor]

You say:



But then


So actually, you do want it to be like every other quest by nerfing the difficulty. Do you like to run the exact same thing except in different backgrounds?

lets say ENecro is right here


right here is where I am suggesting dropping the damage down 1 notch




lets say this is "every other epic quest"

so no, I am not actually saying I want ENecro to be just like every other quest. I don't know why some people are interpreting "just a little" with a lot. this is my last attempt to get certain people in this thread on the same page as me.

[slarden]

So actually, you do want it to be like every other quest by nerfing the difficulty. Do you like to run the exact same thing except in different backgrounds?

These kind of comments don't make sense me when there are as many instances that enemies are too easy as there that enemies are more difficult.

The numbers in ee necro and ee toee are non-sensical and don't equate to challenge at all. I am wondering if people are pushing not to change it because they want the easy button nodes and boss fights. On balance TOEE part 2 is certainly easier than it used to be other than a few temple guards.

I think the #s should be looked at because
- saves should matter
- DC should matter
- bosses should be a bigger challenge than some random archers

The boss fights are designed creatively and it makes sense not to take away the challenge there and put it into trash mobs.

I think if people got past the archers and temple guards they would see the whole rest of TOEE EE part 2 is too easy.

If they don't fix it "challenge" boils down mostly to prr and max dps for trash mobs and nothing matters for the easy bosses. Boring.

[Blastyswa]

I am. If my 80% miss chance fails, I have to instant heal, jump away, or risk death. Its the penalty for having a dodge toon on a real EE. Those of us who like challenge (can I jump away and heal in time), enjoy this type of play.

Those who want a build that always succeeds can go high PRR/MRR and laugh at everyone else (while complaining about lack of challenge).

I enjoy playing toons like that fairly often as well, although high PRR/MRR isn't as big of an easy button as it's made out to be. With significant investment I can get my PRR to 250 while TWF, while still maintaining high DPS; however, when soloing EE ToEE, I can still certainly wipe if I pull the attention of more than one herd of enemies at once. It's even more difficult in group play, where other people tend to be the pullers.

[ned_ellis]

1.st i hardly believe in you or you must be joking, each rare in zone drops on elite 5-10 shrooms and most of times i encounter 5-8 of them with end reward 10-20 shrooms
To make singe weapon you need only 200, and in 1 full run you cna get more than 1/4 need shrooms already if u check entire map.
2.nd irony or not right now in heroics only toee is any kind of challanging to run +5 levels higher sands and killing monsters in 1-3 hits on elite at lvl is not a challange it's a joke, only toee shows how real elite at level should feel

1. why would I lie? Because I want hundreds of toee weapons?! First off, I tend to play hard unless I'm grouping and even duo (with friend leaving me his shrooms) we wouldn't get more than 4 per drop so that's 8 per rare max; I think that possibly not all have the time to sink in toee farming nor the builds or ability to do it on elite in that timeframe. Surely the norm can't be doing only toee from lvl7 to 9 on elite to get one weapon?! Keep in mind not all of us have the time each week to do such a long quest; it's supposed to be a quest out of the norm, not a daily.
2. The power creep we have been subjected to makes me desire difficult quests; I would prefer they were harder in other ways than hp/save/dmg increases but since it's the way things are going, fair enough I suppose...

[ned_ellis]

Also before i forgot i suggest don't make any ranged in toee, they are terrible, only melee weapons are good any ranged in your case bows, like silver bow in one sided winder compared to toee crafted. even toee itself have named bow better than crafted so look to them.

Do they not have a burst effect? If not, I didn't understand the silver bow reference but...which would you recommend?

[SirValentine]

It's not always the same people who are complaining that the game is too easy or saying the game is too hard.

By all means take individuals to task if they make conflicting statements about game difficulty and can't explain it, but treating everything said on the forums as if it all comes from one person and then carrying on about contradictions makes no sense at all.


No opinion to give about Necro 4, but this is spot on. It's different people saying different things.

[Andoris]

But as Tes said earlier, incoming damage has to be huge in order for quests to be difficult.
If we are not getting "2 or 3 shotted" then you could simply herd 20 mobs and aoe them down.

Hmm what other games do I play now, Skyrim, Divinity - Original Sin. Was avid D2 and WoW player long time ago. One failed trap or cc in raid, you are done unless you are the tank.
In any game, higher difficulty always means exponentially higher incoming damage.

Whatever the "point" of these threads is, ability to solo most difficult quests on the highest difficulty is just stupid.
It completely undermines basic mmorpg principles.

Huge damage and real risk of death - that's the only thing that would promote and encourage teamwork in this game again - healing, crowd control, buffs, mob "pulls", tanking. And much bigger survivability difference between "tanky" character and other toons.
But just for elite. Because elite lost its meaning long long time ago.

If people want to play "casually" - normal difficulty should be for that.

+1

It would be nice if this game had more challenge. Fear of death is good, teamwork is good, Doing EE's while half drunk, watching a movie and talking to friends and not really paying attention to the game is not good.

The concept that everyone should be awesome in EE's silly and has done lasting permanent damage to the game (imo).

Bring back challenge.. and while your at it, how about we bring back an economy too --- getting rid of tier'd loot (because some folks didn't want to run EE) and making everything BTA or BTC makes the AH/ASAH pretty useless as well.

[Andoris]

2-3 hits that kill front line melees gives almost no reaction time other than keeping your finger on the heal button and preparing to jump back out of mob range. It doesn't give enough time to really utilize any other melee actions. On a ranged character they have the advantage to kite, insta heal to full hp and do full damage out of mob range. Your video was a good example of the advantages, but also showed how much damage those mobs do when within their range. There were several times you almost died after getting hit just twice resulting you having to wing or jump away imediately and immediately having to hit the heal button. Imagine what it would be like for barbs and fighters that need to be in mob range to do full damage.


What is wrong with having to "jump back" to avoid damage. What is wrong with being quick with heals and have the healing amp to fill up your red bar?

This is EE.. it should be hard. While I agree getting killed in 1 hit is silly and dumb, letting me survive to 2 or 3 hits gives me time to do something to mitigate the damage (healing, jumping back, etc). If we scale it back even a little bit, say where it takes 4-5 hits to kill me, then dps is the answer. As I can just mitigate the damage from the mob by killing it first.

While personally, I think making things harder by just increasing saves, hp, or damage is poor design -- we have been shown over the last few years that it is really the only tool the devs have at their disposal. A better combat Ai would be great, but there is no way DDO is going to get funding for that.

EE's should be tough on even the best geared, built, Past life'd, and played toon. I yearn for a quest where I need to bring 6 top tier players, with top tier toons to complete on EE. If that challenge doesn't exist, why bother having top tier toons at all. If there is no need to top tier toons -- then there is no need for gear grind or PLs.. get rid of that, and there are fewer and fewer reasons to play DDO.

That is the state the game is in now. -- A good solution (imo) would be to up the difficulty of EH to where EE's (outside of ToEE and Necro 4 are) today, and make all EE's like Necro 4.. or a notch higher (as Necro 4 is not difficult to solo by a top tier player on a top tier melee today)

[Andoris]

If all EE quests were like this, we would only have a few tank builds and a few ranged builds in elites. Designing all elites based on 20% of the population (who only play the top FOTM build) would be a sure way to lose players.

I would much prefer players have a choice of EE's so that most everyone can be challenged, and for those who can't handle the top 3% of quests in Necro IV and ToEE, I refer you to the 97% of quests to are mind numbingly boring for top builds. Asking for that 3% to be removed is self-centered and self-serving, particularly when the power creep of U29 is in the works.

Everybody needs to consider others instead of demanding the game be built around them.

Talking about what type of challenge we like is great. Let's have this discussion.

What is wrong with the 80% of the population you refer to running EN and EH? Why should everyone be able to rock EE? What is the point of various difficulty levels if everyone just runs the top difficulty?

[Qhualor]

What is wrong with having to "jump back" to avoid damage. What is wrong with being quick with heals and have the healing amp to fill up your red bar?

This is EE.. it should be hard. While I agree getting killed in 1 hit is silly and dumb, letting me survive to 2 or 3 hits gives me time to do something to mitigate the damage (healing, jumping back, etc). If we scale it back even a little bit, say where it takes 4-5 hits to kill me, then dps is the answer. As I can just mitigate the damage from the mob by killing it first.

While personally, I think making things harder by just increasing saves, hp, or damage is poor design -- we have been shown over the last few years that it is really the only tool the devs have at their disposal. A better combat Ai would be great, but there is no way DDO is going to get funding for that.

EE's should be tough on even the best geared, built, Past life'd, and played toon. I yearn for a quest where I need to bring 6 top tier players, with top tier toons to complete on EE. If that challenge doesn't exist, why bother having top tier toons at all. If there is no need to top tier toons -- then there is no need for gear grind or PLs.. get rid of that, and there are fewer and fewer reasons to play DDO.

That is the state the game is in now. -- A good solution (imo) would be to up the difficulty of EH to where EE's (outside of ToEE and Necro 4 are) today, and make all EE's like Necro 4.. or a notch higher (as Necro 4 is not difficult to solo by a top tier player on a top tier melee today)

I don't have a problem with backing off to avoid damage or to back off and heal up. I have a problem with every mob in Fleshmakers that after 2-3 hits you have to back off or die not giving really any chance for a front line melee to deal real damage or almost no chance to react in time. a very good example of this is watching Wipeys FVS video in this thread. watch how much damage he takes from 1 and 2 hits and that's just on a ranged character still allowing him to back off while still able to deal max damage.

yes, EE should be hard, but this isn't what I consider a reasonable challenge. it falls under the same category as taking off all your gear and running quests under level. jumping back after every 2-3 hits to heal back up isn't very productive and only favors having ranged players in a group. we have been down this road before pre-Armor Up. 4-5 hits seems to be more reasonable because at least players have a chance to try to CC the mob, use tactical fighting or use some epic moment, AB or something big dps without having to drain their sp on healing or chain chug pots just to stay alive.

at this point I do think that is the only tools the devs have whether it be unwillingly, don't have the time/resources/manpower or just don't agree with the player base on this. either way, they keep jacking up the damage, hit points and saves than that just leads to more power creep to overcome those kinds of challenges. in the meantime, more and more players look for ways to avoid fighting in those quests, drop down to a lower difficulty to get the same loot as elite offers or just out right avoid it.

I very much agree that EE should mean players bring their A-game and should be designed around very skilled players that require a full group making it so someone that can solo those quests becomes an achievement. I have been saying for years to up the challenge in elite across the board only to be shouted down. I haven't suggested a small change that I believe would be a better balance like this since the days In The Flesh was avoided like the plague. I suggested a small change like in this thread and ever since its just like "every other quest" in its level range. I still don't believe a small change that lowers the mob damage by just a little would impact ENecro so much that it would be no longer this "challenge" that some people call it. it can still be encouraged for a full group that uses tactical fighting and teamwork, but at least players are also able to do more than back out of every fight after every 2-3 hits from normal mobs.

[Andoris]

I don't have a problem with backing off to avoid damage or to back off and heal up. I have a problem with every mob in Fleshmakers that after 2-3 hits you have to back off or die not giving really any chance for a front line melee to deal real damage or almost no chance to react in time. a very good example of this is watching Wipeys FVS video in this thread. watch how much damage he takes from 1 and 2 hits and that's just on a ranged character still allowing him to back off while still able to deal max damage.

yes, EE should be hard, but this isn't what I consider a reasonable challenge. it falls under the same category as taking off all your gear and running quests under level. jumping back after every 2-3 hits to heal back up isn't very productive and only favors having ranged players in a group. we have been down this road before pre-Armor Up. 4-5 hits seems to be more reasonable because at least players have a chance to try to CC the mob, use tactical fighting or use some epic moment, AB or something big dps without having to drain their sp on healing or chain chug pots just to stay alive.

at this point I do think that is the only tools the devs have whether it be unwillingly, don't have the time/resources/manpower or just don't agree with the player base on this. either way, they keep jacking up the damage, hit points and saves than that just leads to more power creep to overcome those kinds of challenges. in the meantime, more and more players look for ways to avoid fighting in those quests, drop down to a lower difficulty to get the same loot as elite offers or just out right avoid it.

I very much agree that EE should mean players bring their A-game and should be designed around very skilled players that require a full group making it so someone that can solo those quests becomes an achievement. I have been saying for years to up the challenge in elite across the board only to be shouted down. I haven't suggested a small change that I believe would be a better balance like this since the days In The Flesh was avoided like the plague. I suggested a small change like in this thread and ever since its just like "every other quest" in its level range. I still don't believe a small change that lowers the mob damage by just a little would impact ENecro so much that it would be no longer this "challenge" that some people call it. it can still be encouraged for a full group that uses tactical fighting and teamwork, but at least players are also able to do more than back out of every fight after every 2-3 hits from normal mobs.

Here is a compromise. What if we reduced the damage, but then gave them True Seeing and the ability to negate some dodge or ghostly?

Part of the reason that the damage has to be so high is due to the fact that they will miss a well built melee 70-80% of the time.

The dev's have stated that they balance based on a # of swings until death/heal formula. When 70-80% of a mobs attacks miss, the damage when they do hit has to be extreme. This has caused a lot of issues for the game (ie no point in dedicated healers as reaction time is not fast enough and damage is too spiky)

[slarden]

Here is a compromise. What if we reduced the damage, but then gave them True Seeing and the ability to negate some dodge or ghostly?

Part of the reason that the damage has to be so high is due to the fact that they will miss a well built melee 70-80% of the time.

And also some with complete PRR bypass

[Basura_Grande]

+1

It would be nice if this game had more challenge. Fear of death is good, teamwork is good, Doing EE's while half drunk, watching a movie and talking to friends and not really paying attention to the game is not good.



Half drunk?

Amateur.

[Qhualor]

Here is a compromise. What if we reduced the damage, but then gave them True Seeing and the ability to negate some dodge or ghostly?

Part of the reason that the damage has to be so high is due to the fact that they will miss a well built melee 70-80% of the time.

The dev's have stated that they balance based on a # of swings until death/heal formula. When 70-80% of a mobs attacks miss, the damage when they do hit has to be extreme. This has caused a lot of issues for the game (ie no point in dedicated healers as reaction time is not fast enough and damage is too spiky)

as long as it fits the theme for the mobs, I don't have a problem with giving them extra abilities. as a matter of fact, I have in the past suggested such things in place of upping mob damage, saves and hit points. by doing that, the devs could have more control over increasing character power. expanding mobs spell lists for more variety in what casters use not cycling through the same ones over and over, expand melee mobs tactical fighting in the same way, give mobs healers and improve mobs heal amp, increase mobs PRR/MRR, give mobs some ED abilities. I even liked the idea of mobs raising the dead, but I guess that was a no go. these are the kinds of things I think make a more sensible challenge in place of just scaling up mob damage and call it challenge.

[AzureDragonas]

Do they not have a burst effect? If not, I didn't understand the silver bow reference but...which would you recommend?

Well you get lot less mats by running other than elite. Toee compared in time takes as much time as some chains at same level while also giving more XP. About bows any ranged there are terrible, to avoid too much power they gave best effects to melee weapons and why I men to her silver bow, normal bow is 20/3x while silver at 8 lvl is 18-20/3x so why it's so good I think you will understand.

[Andoris]

Half drunk?

Amateur.

If I only had more Minions, I am sure I could do it 100% drunk instead :)

At some point I might make it into the pros

[ned_ellis]

Well you get lot less mats by running other than elite. Toee compared in time takes as much time as some chains at same level while also giving more XP. About bows any ranged there are terrible, to avoid too much power they gave best effects to melee weapons and why I men to her silver bow, normal bow is 20/3x while silver at 8 lvl is 18-20/3x so why it's so good I think you will understand.

But isn't the point Of this thread to discuss that elite not only should be incredibly difficult (and I agree) but that toee is above even that benchmark? Surely then you cant consider it to be the norm for mat farming?! It seems to me that you reason as an 'uber' but want to maintain challenge (rightly) - then I can not be expected to do toee on elite till lvl 9, in group and still suffer! You are showing that the 'norm' is elite so how can the lvl of difficulty ever offer the lvl of challenge you desire?!

Imo they need to marry alternative quest designs with a stop to power creep and then readjust mob stats to make normal, well, normal?! Élite should be a couple of hits and goodnight and we should be ok with running normal or hard if our uber friends are otherwise engaged - any dictionary can tell us and the devs what normal, hard and elite actually mean but does anyone think they reflect the current reality?! For me hard=normal and elite=hard. For azure elite=normal...it is, at least linguistically, a mess! ;)
With regards the bow, I thought u meant bow of silver flame; the silver bow is v.good but I'm now at 126 mushrooms and im gonna upgrade it or die trying! ;p

[AzureDragonas]

But isn't the point Of this thread to discuss that elite not only should be incredibly difficult (and I agree) but that toee is above even that benchmark? Surely then you cant consider it to be the norm for mat farming?! It seems to me that you reason as an 'uber' but want to maintain challenge (rightly) - then I can not be expected to do toee on elite till lvl 9, in group and still suffer! You are showing that the 'norm' is elite so how can the lvl of difficulty ever offer the lvl of challenge you desire?!

Imo they need to marry alternative quest designs with a stop to power creep and then readjust mob stats to make normal, well, normal?! Élite should be a couple of hits and goodnight and we should be ok with running normal or hard if our uber friends are otherwise engaged - any dictionary can tell us and the devs what normal, hard and elite actually mean but does anyone think they reflect the current reality?! For me hard=normal and elite=hard. For azure elite=normal...it is, at least linguistically, a mess! ;)
With regards the bow, I thought u meant bow of silver flame; the silver bow is v.good but I'm now at 126 mushrooms and im gonna upgrade it or die trying! ;p

Regarding toee ranged again they are not worth even time to bother crafting unless you have 1k mats like me and yet i rather craft melee weapons. Heres what gets ranged weapons
Seeker +4
Crippling
x Blast
Purple Augment Slot

in comparison lvl 9 house c challanges ring:
BtC, Insightful Sneak Attack Bonus +1, Seeker +4, Manslayer, Craftable (+3) - same seeker sneak stackign bonus can augment with crafting and even insta kill <1k on vorpals monsters

Blasts works on criticals only and it's not that great i just pointed saving mats for melee weapon with amazing lvl 20 effects and using silver bow which is way better and stronger than toee crafted bows.

And for quests, right now i am running at heroic leveling my tempest, at 15 i have 630 hp as 13 ranger 1 monk 1 rog while using khopeshes, and yet not full completionist could be at 650-700 if tryed harder, even thought i have 60 prr 30 mrr while not even using items, having 40% doublestrike and criting for 400-700? I half time in elite quests feel asleep, they are walkups, Elite should be challanging and by accident i got my excitments not by champs who gives minor challange, but by new Arcons quests. Thought monsters hit me for 100+ elemental damage, i dont even invest in evasion and saves, moderate heal from ranger heals me more than they do damage there actualy felt at least as how elite should be. Toee is no exception with my gf we dualed it at 9 with hires with no issues on elite both parts including zugmoty fight. I point issue of game, that old elite quests what were designed to challange people from 4-5 years back while there was no so much ways to survive (guild buffs pl, ed) etc, regenerating 150-200 hp just by ed pl and heal amp each minute? There is no challange in heroic elite anymore, even ee is just a bit challanging, most of quests i just zerg by clearing all mobs in seconds to end and go to next, no wonder ppl dont stay in heroics there is nothing to do. As many pointed heroic is not challaning to any class as long as you know quests, have gear and basic understanding how buffs etc works and from what they protect. Newest quests and packs what are adjusted arround prr mrr and other stuff players have shows promising, but while its 2% of entire content... Devs should make some changes in quests by updating them to a current game state instead of leaving them at challange level of 5 years or more ago.

I mentioned prob best suggestion similiar to reaper there was talk could be:
Extreme identical to elite, maybe adding 10% extra xp, where monsters are scaled by lets say +5-8 levels above quest or having extra buffs debuffs more champs better drop rates? While at same time provinding same favor streak. It wouldnt effect current elites they would be same as they are now. Soemthing more to challange even 1k hp at lvl 10, sorry to be able 1 hit kill monsters becouse i did critical is not a challange it's a joke, runing with new shiny toee weapons making couple attacks triggering theyr lvl 20 effects and clearing entiree room of mobs above at lvl 11-13 quests It's a joke. If somone planning to say go run naked with no buffs gear using bare hands to feel challange, i would respond if game TELLS you get pl feats get items upgrade your toon further and further what is point at end not use it? For new players they dont need xp that must as tr ppl does. And this nonsense everyone should be good enough for elite, screwed challanging that much most builds can solo EE at lvl without issue exluding again those 3-5% off ee quests which gives any kind of real challange by excuse i got 1-2 hitted game unbalanced end game content should be same walkups as all other epics.

And here we have content balance where players can choose do same old "walkup heroic elite" or play "extreme elite" which would let to see how well theyr build actualy works instead of 1 shooting any monster half of time.

To adjust even further issue, Elite mired in kobold lond time ago ppl were asking higher level players to help to deal with mom dragon, kiting using crystals, thought with group i could solo it now just by standing with auto attack and throwing time by time cure light wounds or just regenerating 150+ hp each minute. If boss of quest which was so hard long time ago is a joke like this now, is it really should be labeled as elite difficulty? Am i got so strong or just class passes and extra features like better gear / extra buffs / better stats / PL / experience made those "Elite" quests outdated to even challange current player base.

After getting home to prove this can make screenie of items i use, stats hp etc buffed at lvl 15. Same stats long time ago were used at old epics, what i have from lvl 14 now in same old heroics

[BigErkyKid]

Here is a compromise. What if we reduced the damage, but then gave them True Seeing and the ability to negate some dodge or ghostly?

Part of the reason that the damage has to be so high is due to the fact that they will miss a well built melee 70-80% of the time.

The dev's have stated that they balance based on a # of swings until death/heal formula. When 70-80% of a mobs attacks miss, the damage when they do hit has to be extreme. This has caused a lot of issues for the game (ie no point in dedicated healers as reaction time is not fast enough and damage is too spiky)

A toon with displacement, 10% incorporeality has already a base: .5*.9=45% chance to be hit (or 55% to be missed).

Add 30% dodge and it becomes .5*.9*.7=31% to be hit (69% to be missed).

Yes, the probas they miss are really high. However, by just pumping up the damage so much, they hit disproportionately toons that get a relatively higher amount of their defense from to-be-missed and not from damage reductions (PRR and DR).

As we showed mathematically somewhere else, the probability of death (due to a bad roll) is higher for dodgy characters than for PRR based characters. The more enemies you and the more damage they do, the more PRR is favored.

If you combine this with the fact that traditional classes relying on dodge tend to have lower PRR (rogue, monk) AND bad self heals, you create a situation where the smart thing is to go for heavy armor. Alternatively you have bards, useful because a) they can pack higher PRR due to shield mastery / stalward synergies, b) they have burst heals.

The more the game goes towards this sort of huge spiky damage, the more that sources that mitigate it even on bad rolls AND classes with burst heals will be favored. On top of HP bags, which goes without saying are awesome against those kind of massive hits.

You don't have to take my word for it. This has been simulated by Forzah. He coded scenarios with up to 3 enemies under different values of PRR/DR/Dodge/Incopr/Conceal. It was show that dodge types have a fat probability tail on dying in just a few hits. This is only compounded by the self healing differences.

I think it was Reigneu that put it better somewhere else. Take a character with 50% dodge and one with 50% reduction by PRR. Give it 1000 HPs and put it against a mob that hits for 500 damage in double strikes.

Half of the times the dodge character will be dead, whereas the PRR will never die.

The devs have created a really hard situation to balance with the current PRR implementation. DnD already had a system to simulate spike damage, it was called fortification. Armored types had more fortification (from the armor) whereas dodgy types had less. Spike damage then came not from being hit, but rather being critted. Now this was balanced because critting is a far less frequent event that being hit. Right now it is completely unbalanced and we have redundancy of systems. PRR is the new fortification of sorts, but rather than being useful 1/20 or (mob crits) it is 6/20 or 7/20 (mob hits) that it matters.

[ned_ellis]

I think the point is you shouldn't be doing it at lvl; in your toee example you should be at lvl 7, otherwise it's the same as running a lvl 9 quest on normal! If a quest base lvl is 7, doing it on elite is harder if done at that time; the fact that it's marked lvl9 is indicative. I ask the thread followers : do you consider the difficulty setting from quest base lvl or from difficulty setting itself?! 'cause that changes a loooot of misconceptions and might explain why some find elite so easy. Also, fyi, while you may have almost completionist, pl's, top gear not all do by a long stretch...

[AzureDragonas]

A toon with displacement, 10% incorporeality has already a base: .5*.9=45% chance to be hit (or 55% to be missed).

Add 30% dodge and it becomes .5*.9*.7=31% to be hit (69% to be missed).

Yes, the probas they miss are really high. However, by just pumping up the damage so much, they hit disproportionately toons that get a relatively higher amount of their defense from to-be-missed and not from damage reductions (PRR and DR).

As we showed mathematically somewhere else, the probability of death (due to a bad roll) is higher for dodgy characters than for PRR based characters. The more enemies you and the more damage they do, the more PRR is favored.

If you combine this with the fact that traditional classes relying on dodge tend to have lower PRR (rogue, monk) AND bad self heals, you create a situation where the smart thing is to go for heavy armor. Alternatively you have bards, useful because a) they can pack higher PRR due to shield mastery / stalward synergies, b) they have burst heals.

The more the game goes towards this sort of huge spiky damage, the more that sources that mitigate it even on bad rolls AND classes with burst heals will be favored. On top of HP bags, which goes without saying are awesome against those kind of massive hits.

You don't have to take my word for it. This has been simulated by Forzah. He coded scenarios with up to 3 enemies under different values of PRR/DR/Dodge/Incopr/Conceal. It was show that dodge types have a fat probability tail on dying in just a few hits. This is only compounded by the self healing differences.

I think it was Reigneu that put it better somewhere else. Take a character with 50% dodge and one with 50% reduction by PRR. Give it 1000 HPs and put it against a mob that hits for 500 damage in double strikes.

Half of the times the dodge character will be dead, whereas the PRR will never die.

The devs have created a really hard situation to balance with the current PRR implementation. DnD already had a system to simulate spike damage, it was called fortification. Armored types had more fortification (from the armor) whereas dodgy types had less. Spike damage then came not from being hit, but rather being critted. Now this was balanced because critting is a far less frequent event that being hit. Right now it is completely unbalanced and we have redundancy of systems. PRR is the new fortification of sorts, but rather than being useful 1/20 or (mob crits) it is 6/20 or 7/20 (mob hits) that it matters.

Arent you forgeting something?

You say prr and HA users benefit from damages, while they still get decent ~50% miss chacen at least from dodge/blur/ghost items while having on top of that ac bonus to miss further.

For monks rogs or why you call dodge guys pyjama builds etc. They shouldnt even get hitted? If guy in my guild on monk fighter unarmed build at 21 have 80-90 stuning dc and does 2600 crit damage, to use same stuns on those "scary monsters" kinda logical. You kill most deadly enemy by stuning it while having higher miss chance than others but taking more damage if you get hit. Seems WAI as it should be

For rogs, they use mostly light armors not pyjamas so it's up to you. But here i know 3 main rog builds
Qstaff acrobats? Lots of str stuning blow knockdowns etc crits up to 10k while building wisely and focus right status like str to increase all cc they get not some punny dex
Ranged - i mean if you get hit as ranged by melee you do something wrong so it can't be the case
Assasin - so you have ability instanly kill 1-4 targets each 12 seconds by using special move while sneaking - entire mechanic based on that.

So if you say it's not right that front lines who uses prr favors massive damage, than those who have massive bunch of cc higher damage, and are backliners who in most cases shouldnt be in front lanes to begin with i find it as strange argument

[AzureDragonas]

I think the point is you shouldn't be doing it at lvl; in your toee example you should be at lvl 7, otherwise it's the same as running a lvl 9 quest on normal! If a quest base lvl is 7, doing it on elite is harder if done at that time; the fact that it's marked lvl9 is indicative. I ask the thread followers : do you consider the difficulty setting from quest base lvl or from difficulty setting itself?! 'cause that changes a loooot of misconceptions and might explain why some find elite so easy. Also, fyi, while you may have almost completionist, pl's, top gear not all do by a long stretch...

so you say in short i should run elite being under level, isnt that same as runing +3-5 levels quest above? I run each quest once even skipping chains for epics and even with no pots tomes etc i get so much xp i am always at +2 levels of quests, even now i am 15 and only now run lvl 13 before i cap xp to 17. can lvl to 16 already why not even started runing GH thats issue where you kinda forced keep this schedule to get favor xp. like same reason as why i dont run normals. While havving stoneskin guard i get hitted for 3-5 damage from normal elite lvl 13 quest monster in assault on summerfield chain, while having 600+ hp. You see how loughable current old elite is right now? Toons of strengh comapred to old epic lvl 20 reached, are runing heroics and can't face any challange unless champ or new content. Even Ebb dq on ranger is joke even without ranged weapon, you heal with ranger moderate twice as much as her combo in close do damage?

[Knobull]

I have a good solution for The Necropolis series and ToEE. I don't run them. I did not buy the packs. Necropolis just involves too much inventory spam for the quest/chain rewards and ToEE was added after I cancelled my VIP because of community mismanagement, so I have never run it, but I don't see myself buying a one quest pack.

Maybe not all that helpful, but it works for me, I just skip content I do not like. Vale (Dust) and Necropolis (inventory spam) top that list. I enjoy most of the rest of the game quite a bit. Except for the annoyance of Shadowfell lag effects, but we're not allowed to talk about the root cause of that problem. ;)

[ned_ellis]

so you say in short i should run elite being under level, isnt that same as runing +3-5 levels quest above? I run each quest once even skipping chains for epics and even with no pots tomes etc i get so much xp i am always at +2 levels of quests, even now i am 15 and only now run lvl 13 before i cap xp to 17. can lvl to 16 already why not even started runing GH thats issue where you kinda forced keep this schedule to get favor xp. like same reason as why i dont run normals. While havving stoneskin guard i get hitted for 3-5 damage from normal elite lvl 13 quest monster in assault on summerfield chain, while having 600+ hp. You see how loughable current old elite is right now? Toons of strengh comapred to old epic lvl 20 reached, are runing heroics and can't face any challange unless champ or new content. Even Ebb dq on ranger is joke even without ranged weapon, you heal with ranger moderate twice as much as her combo in close do damage?

Ok, it's not clear to me if you're banking those lvls or not but if you aren't....youre asking for a raise in mob lvl in quests designed to be run at a lower lvl than you run them because otherwise it's too easy?! Wt*?!

The thread is mainly for end game content (waiting for u29) so on elite lvl 31/32 with max lvl28 toons-they should be very hard but, asthe poster points out, maybe not only on a pure dmg/save/hp lvl...if you find only these challenging it's normal because your lvl cap is lower whilst you do every other quest over-lvl! Try the other way then get back to us instead of complaining it's all too easy,no?!

[Vanhooger]

Interesting discussion on the latest post. Too bad Devs don't get involved after 11 page. Maybe, I should start giving up hope for this game.

[BigErkyKid]

Arent you forgeting something?

You say prr and HA users benefit from damages, while they still get decent ~50% miss chacen at least from dodge/blur/ghost items while having on top of that ac bonus to miss further.

For monks rogs or why you call dodge guys pyjama builds etc. They shouldnt even get hitted? If guy in my guild on monk fighter unarmed build at 21 have 80-90 stuning dc and does 2600 crit damage, to use same stuns on those "scary monsters" kinda logical. You kill most deadly enemy by stuning it while having higher miss chance than others but taking more damage if you get hit. Seems WAI as it should be

For rogs, they use mostly light armors not pyjamas so it's up to you. But here i know 3 main rog builds
Qstaff acrobats? Lots of str stuning blow knockdowns etc crits up to 10k while building wisely and focus right status like str to increase all cc they get not some punny dex
Ranged - i mean if you get hit as ranged by melee you do something wrong so it can't be the case
Assasin - so you have ability instanly kill 1-4 targets each 12 seconds by using special move while sneaking - entire mechanic based on that.

So if you say it's not right that front lines who uses prr favors massive damage, than those who have massive bunch of cc higher damage, and are backliners who in most cases shouldnt be in front lanes to begin with i find it as strange argument

How are all those different CC options different between archetypes? Can nowadays a monk have the best stuns in the game? Answer is NO. Can a rogue have the best stuns in the game? Answer again is NO. Assassinate every 12 seconds? This is a situational ability.

The real deal is that BOTH raising damage like that AND making some DCs unachievable push people towards certain builds. Namely massive raw DPS / HPs / PRR.

The fact that end game favors certain archetypes is not surprising since this has been the case in other iterations. Before Barbs and Palies we had monkchers and shiradis...

[AzureDragonas]

Ok, it's not clear to me if you're banking those lvls or not but if you aren't....youre asking for a raise in mob lvl in quests designed to be run at a lower lvl than you run them because otherwise it's too easy?! Wt*?!

The thread is mainly for end game content (waiting for u29) so on elite lvl 31/32 with max lvl28 toons-they should be very hard but, asthe poster points out, maybe not only on a pure dmg/save/hp lvl...if you find only these challenging it's normal because your lvl cap is lower whilst you do every other quest over-lvl! Try the other way then get back to us instead of complaining it's all too easy,no?!

Dude get down from that throne of yours or pink glasses you use i point as many others did Heroic content gives no challange at all already it's easy on any class or any build as long as you know quests and have proper items knowelodge to do them. If you say to feel challange i should run higher level than i quests, technicly you suggest me to skip half content for a small challange which is again non existance right now. you think if at lvl quest 15 monster hits me 5-9 damage on hit after all dr i have, it makes any difference if i were lvl 11 in same lvl 15 elite quest, but having a bit lower hp?
ppl stack dozen resistance - elemental damage specialy acid arrows which were killing does nothing
put shield - MM does nothing
put fom - no one will even touch you with hold monster
drink that pot from market of evil protection you never be on ground from greater command etc
let them hit you. Already players runs ignoring 50% damage before dr comes in.

I point Heroic are already not worth any challange at all they are too easy to challange us, couse most content was designed to challange us 5-8 years ago when game come out.

For others who still try prove theyr point of game unfairness there are these words, it's not to insult but to open for some blind people eyes whats going on arround:

Right now EE moving to same direction, challanging again as we saw paladins barbarians who just cleave with no issues or warlocks who blast throw content reaching cap faster than you reach 20 on EE difficluty. Why i say this?
Devs made adjustments too right direction with champs and new quests remake like Necro4/ToEE, which actualy challange player base, and then somone who is used to run other EE who is again Barely gets challanged for years start screaming it's not fair theyr "epic toons" unable to survive in there means those quests have issues. End game content like necro4/toee and then comes to mind that Legendary gonna be something similiar and even harder they make waves about those quests being unfair and killing them.

HELLO there are 2 easier difficulites which exist and they can run and there is EE dificuly which actualy feels like EE and challange smaller part of players who actually feels it's how it supposed to be, and get challanged.

This game in last years got so boring you can build without thinking to much it will work, i barely even plan my feats skills anymore just roll and go, it will work out anyway, and only ray of hope which keeps me promises about challanging content and new legendary difficulty which i hope wont be fiasko, adjusted for same crybabies who feels inferior after dying from 1-2 hits while afk standing and using autoattacks.

First days of Champions release even challanged paladins who were invincible. Image what kind of cry was raised when somone who dont move a inch and used to get non to low damage all the time, actualy starts getting hitted and hard. Current champs are same weak monsters who by accident and randomization sometimes gets abilities making them still deadly (most of times its extra damage on projectile casters).

Triple completionist on everything making thread to show how broken end game content is comapred to other walkup quests?
I teached and helped multiple first lifers about EE, and they doing better than old geezers sitting on that shiny gear for so many years? Guildie fighter who uses THF and runs same quests with us dying 0 times, and having normal kill count even surviving those "scary monsters" with first lifer gear using sireth at 28, tell me what is issue some people unable to comperhand game and being lazy in quests to even use simple tactics dodge kite heal up, or that monsters damage hp is scaling so they wont die in 2 secs or even get chance to hit while missing 80% times? If somone told let's balance game making monsters in similiar boat, having dodge\ac\ghostly\prr\resistance\buffs\displacment\ TS etc and then pairing them to players, you know what uproar there would be, people here talks about unfairness of monsters being able to kill them, or challanging more than quest boss. Talk about unfairness ToEE end fight in p1 is joke? Hell yeah, if same caster would cast flesh to sone/ desintegrate/poolar rays/or killed you without save would it be more interresting? Hell no, you ask challange from caster bosses telling they should be stronger than archers while at same time crossing hands to any effect which could kill you. so whats left tranform all quest bosses to dragons/giants and other bosses who does like zugmoty to challange you fairly?

Sorry to tell you there is no fair game for a long time classes getting passes, stronger and stronger gear appearing, pl stacking, players getting more smart and to blame game and quests of "unfairness" is insult while years ago most of us were wiping on those same quests demanding nerfs to make game easier.

Here good example:
DA before was wipable most of times with no cc and ppl challanged it for 2 tokens, look now, you hit lvl 20 and solo it on ee. Do you can compare stasis of game before and now.

[AzureDragonas]

How are all those different CC options different between archetypes? Can nowadays a monk have the best stuns in the game? Answer is NO. Can a rogue have the best stuns in the game? Answer again is NO. Assassinate every 12 seconds? This is a situational ability.

The real deal is that BOTH raising damage like that AND making some DCs unachievable push people towards certain builds. Namely massive raw DPS / HPs / PRR.

The fact that end game favors certain archetypes is not surprising since this has been the case in other iterations. Before Barbs and Palies we had monkchers and shiradis...

Sorry to tell you i had no issues as many people arround me to reach DC either with casters or melee to work most of times. I Even pugged toee EE with 50 dc paralyzing arrows and had no issue. Stop telling nonsense that your 95+ dc fails while at same time my 50 dc paralyzing lands most of times, it's not even funny anymore

If you can't reach workign dc, it's your issue not game so stop daydreaming again about unfair dc demand and that only DPS matters

Also no wonder people moved to shiradi and same dps/prr/hp meatbags, for a simple and obvious reason, they dont require any skill planning or even efforts to work. Both dc based and prr based achieves same objectives just 2nd group makes it easier faster and with less effort putted in.

So to demand a nerf on easier playable classes are fine, same as demand for harder efforts required classes to add for them easy win button. But it never should pass a line, when you bend facts to your advantage, i was farming same toee with my hard based cc wiz, placing webs\dance orbs even using insta kill and all those worked not 100% but worked as they supposed to.

[Vanhooger]

So, in short AI rework is not possible, due to budget or whatever. OK

What if we had more mob special ability, dev could do that as they already exist in game, some example:

- Harpies song make you helpless. So basically you need to be careful on zerging too much while not be able to take action
- End boss of prove you're worth epic. The boss is calling an Aoe stun with no save if you don't have social skill. (That is an amazing special ability)
- Beholder at end of The Sane Asylum with the force AoE damage
- Lich with force damage in GOP. They're dedly if you don't care of them
Could add more...

Also: Better spell rotation for caster. Look like they cast only disintegrate or negative energy in Epics.

Add more orange mob each quest (at least new quest and give them those ablity) with strategic placement and reinforcement. At least orange mob will make some sense.

[AzureDragonas]

So, in short AI rework is not possible, due to budget or whatever. OK

What if we had more mob special ability, dev could do that as they already exist in game, some example:

- Harpies song make you helpless. So basically you need to be careful on zerging too much while not be able to take action
- End boss of prove you're worth epic. The boss is calling an Aoe stun with no save if you don't have social skill. (That is an amazing special ability)
- Beholder at end of The Sane Asylum with the force AoE damage
- Lich with force damage in GOP. They're dedly if you don't care of them
Could add more...

Also: Better spell rotation for caster. Look like they cast only disintegrate or negative energy in Epics.

Add more orange mob each quest (at least new quest and give them those ablity) with strategic placement and reinforcement. At least orange mob will make some sense.

Here you finnaly showed suggestions which are good, but you forget it's signatures of certain monster types,
No one else than harpies can make those songs and by content imagine you running something as devils gambits and among devils you see harpies - makes no sense doenst it?

Devs does same they add special attack abilities where storyline or scenary of monsters alows it.

- Super lich on drugs running to you and blasting with force similiar as T5 eKnight blast - it signature of eNecro
- Beholders - they have no spot in most arcs unless they are raid bosses or its about xoriat
- Prove your worth uses a single swashbucler which is a boss imagine if that would be a case let's say in precious cargo when entire ship full of those monsters?

To make bosses like this there must certain story line which would alow those bosses to have those abilities.

Even arterikos you should have noticed in arcons chain was identical to all we know but in devils gambit he had purple arm surrounded by something

Maybe it points that arterikos will get new super move which will be his and only his signature rather than half bosses of quests and raids having it.

[ned_ellis]

Interesting discussion on the latest post. Too bad Devs don't get involved after 11 page. Maybe, I should start giving up hope for this game.

Don't go down without a fight! ;) I'm losing my questing buddy with the recent changes as is but I haven't given up all hope on the game yet so will keep posting when possible...allthough with some of the illogical points I read I might just try and convince the devs to ignore the forums and cross my fingers they can fix it alone! ;p

[BigErkyKid]

I Even pugged toee EE with 50 dc paralyzing arrows and had no issue. Stop telling nonsense that your 95+ dc fails while at same time my 50 dc paralyzing lands most of times, it's not even funny anymore


It is a fact. Some mobs have out of whack saves, for example cultists in toee part 1 and mobs in devil assault. You getting into a cute rage doesn't change it one bit.

As updates keep coming, some of these mobs have changed (for instance now bards can fascinate almost no fail in toee part 1, apparently). Good, keep those changes coming. Truth is, it is ONLY due to our reports that they realize those things are going on.


Also no wonder people moved to shiradi and same dps/prr/hp meatbags, for a simple and obvious reason, they dont require any skill planning or even efforts to work. Both dc based and prr based achieves same objectives just 2nd group makes it easier faster and with less effort putted in.

Nothing to say to this. I did not lie when I reported my tests on the DCs. I am glad they did change it and I am sure it is a result of our reports.

Now have a look at the necessary stun DCs in demon assault and at flesh golems in necro IV EE.

[Vanhooger]

Here you finnaly showed suggestions which are good, but you forget it's signatures of certain monster types,
No one else than harpies can make those songs and by content imagine you running something as devils gambits and among devils you see harpies - makes no sense doenst it?

Devs does same they add special attack abilities where storyline or scenary of monsters alows it.

- Super lich on drugs running to you and blasting with force similiar as T5 eKnight blast - it signature of eNecro
- Beholders - they have no spot in most arcs unless they are raid bosses or its about xoriat
- Prove your worth uses a single swashbucler which is a boss imagine if that would be a case let's say in precious cargo when entire ship full of those monsters?

To make bosses like this there must certain story line which would alow those bosses to have those abilities.

Even arterikos you should have noticed in arcons chain was identical to all we know but in devils gambit he had purple arm surrounded by something

Maybe it points that arterikos will get new super move which will be his and only his signature rather than half bosses of quests and raids having it.

These were just example I'm not saying to put Harpies in shavarat or Demons in stormhorns.
All I say is that we should probably have more of those special abilty and make them fit the content.

[BigErkyKid]

Maybe it points that arterikos will get new super move which will be his and only his signature rather than half bosses of quests and raids having it.

No one said they should have those particular abilities, rather that they should have SOME abilities as opposed to just DBs for 500 a pop.

Abilities that one can interact with via clever planning and building, as opposed to having to simply brute force everything.

[Vanhooger]

No one said they should have those particular abilities, rather that they should have SOME abilities as opposed to just DBs for 500 a pop.

Abilities that one can interact with via clever planning and building, as opposed to having to simply brute force everything.

Agree 100%

[GroundhogDay]

I think the point is you shouldn't be doing it at lvl; in your toee example you should be at lvl 7, otherwise it's the same as running a lvl 9 quest on normal!

This

[AzureDragonas]

It is a fact. Some mobs have out of whack saves, for example cultists in toee part 1 and mobs in devil assault. You getting into a cute rage doesn't change it one bit.

As updates keep coming, some of these mobs have changed (for instance now bards can fascinate almost no fail in toee part 1, apparently). Good, keep those changes coming. Truth is, it is ONLY due to our reports that they realize those things are going on.



Nothing to say to this. I did not lie when I reported my tests on the DCs. I am glad they did change it and I am sure it is a result of our reports.

Now have a look at the necessary stun DCs in demon assault and at flesh golems in necro IV EE.

Anything which is normally immune to stunning fist and stunning blow (constructs, elementals, etc.) continues to be immune.
Wait so you demand to be able to stun monsters which by definition shouldn't be stunnable? How it works out?

Having 80 dc freezes was enough after it came out on EE in Demon assault even farmed it, so wait how can you fail it?

Being warchanter in EE GoP i was facinating monsters in end fight so we could focus on beholders with no fail in same GoP farming with guild with no deaths run i mentioned, a temple which technicly is at same range of monster level saves maybe even weaker succeded to your facinate?

Are you sure there was just not bad day of dice roll when monsters obviously have 5% to always succed any kind of save?

[AzureDragonas]

No one said they should have those particular abilities, rather that they should have SOME abilities as opposed to just DBs for 500 a pop.

Abilities that one can interact with via clever planning and building, as opposed to having to simply brute force everything.

So instead dealing with a monster which have doublestrike, and instead of dealing with it properly you better have same mob being able to stun you with no save if you failed skill check like bluff or diplo. How exactly it would be in quests like ToEE, when there are lets say 3 monsters who can at any time use this ability and at a time you can save against only 1. Woudn't it mean devs should make precisely 1 monster like this in group, so you wont get stun for bizilion years while other monsters attack you helpless, let's remmeber add lag and zergers on top of that. So call it wipe for failed not in time used save? Abilities like this for a certain reason have only bosses couse in quest like prove your worth hes alone, he warns you about what he does and gives you time to react. Try apply this to quests like Toee or any other new quest on trash monsters - sounds terrible no? at least you can run away or stun those doublestrike monsters dealing with them pretty much easily as long as you don't stand in spot like tree.

[ned_ellis]

Agree 100%

Me too!

[Vanhooger]

So instead dealing with a monster which have doublestrike, and instead of dealing with it properly you better have same mob being able to stun you with no save if you failed skill check like bluff or diplo. How exactly it would be in quests like ToEE, when there are lets say 3 monsters who can at any time use this ability and at a time you can save against only 1. Woudn't it mean devs should make precisely 1 monster like this in group, so you wont get stun for bizilion years while other monsters attack you helpless, let's remmeber add lag and zergers on top of that. So call it wipe for failed not in time used save? Abilities like this for a certain reason have only bosses couse in quest like prove your worth hes alone, he warns you about what he does and gives you time to react. Try apply this to quests like Toee or any other new quest on trash monsters - sounds terrible no? at least you can run away or stun those doublestrike monsters dealing with them pretty much easily as long as you don't stand in spot like tree.

Probably people will have to stop zerg and maybe take different route then just dps/dps/dps/dps/dps.

We talk about add another layer of difficulty but nobody like any idea form whoever is proposing it. Also I say to give special ability to specific mob like orange named cos it make sense, they're not normal trash, not any mob in the quest. If you know there is a mob that potentially can stun entire party with like 5 minions, you would zerg in they're face? I suppose you won't. Just one example.

As well any special ability of course should give you time to react with a warning.

If you get stunned and die after the warning. it's player fault and deserve to die.

[AzureDragonas]

K let's look from your perspective you demand that monsters would have special abilities to challange you more, like they special attacks instead of doing damage, becouse some says if tanks prepare to get hitted and gets hitts they can witstand and i live in dream land where monsters even have 20% chance to hit me, they will never hit me how you imagine end result will be?

Decreese damage and alow monsters to stun you with they special ki secret technique.

1.st question How exactly lowering damage on monsters when smart people focus on defenses not miss chance gets low damage hits?
2.nd how you imagine that kind of interaction on bunch of monsters if there are couple of them?

Answer:
You demand nerf in damage which favors again same "smarter" ppl by giving them even less damage to deal with, so your punch bag could survive after having chance to be hit 1/5 of times longer
At same time making soloing nearly impossible by allowing monsters keep somone stunned tripped all the time.
You will die anyway couse you try solve issue in game and not yourself

Don't you aggree it solves nothing but makes game even more comlicated?

[Vanhooger]

K let's look from your perspective you demand that monsters would have special abilities to challange you more, like they special attacks instead of doing damage, becouse some says if tanks prepare to get hitted and gets hitts they can witstand and i live in dream land where monsters even have 20% chance to hit me, they will never hit me how you imagine end result will be?

Decreese damage and alow monsters to stun you with they special ki secret technique.

1.st question How exactly lowering damage on monsters when smart people focus on defenses not miss chance gets low damage hits?
2.nd how you imagine that kind of interaction on bunch of monsters if there are couple of them?

Answer:
You demand nerf in damage which favors again same "smarter" ppl by giving them even less damage to deal with, so your punch bad could survive after having chance to be hit 1/5 of times longer
At same time making soloing nearly impossible by allowing monsters keep somone stunned tripped all the time.
You will die anyway couse you try solve issue in game and not yourself

Don't you aggree it solves nothing but makes game even more comlicated?

I do give suggestion, if you have better idea other then just damage/hp & dps I'm here, we can discuss that.
If complicated mean more challenge I will take it.
As some people said, EE end game quest should be a real achievement, not a zerg run to end.

[AzureDragonas]

I do give suggestion, if you have better idea other then just damage/hp & dps I'm here, we can discuss that.
If complicated mean more challenge I will take it.
As some people said, EE end game quest should be a real achievement, not a zerg run to end.

And thats my point only real end content which looks as EE should be is Necro4/ToEE and other quests should be adjusted by looking at them (they are new quests louched including all changes game had) and it's bad practise to compare them to current EE or 95% content we have this is outdated. You understnad?

You and most here demands only challanging content to be downgraded to theyr level
Instead of improving all remainig content to proper level.

And as most here told they have chance to avoid 80% hits making monsters to hit 1/5 times. but hitting hard couse again they focus on miss chance instead of defense? You demand to solve it by reducing damage
so those who focus on defense as all should be, have close to none issue in those quests to take 2-5 hits jump our heal and go dps again making another PUGISH unchallanging difficulty, tell again who is wrong,

Those who demands to adjust content to theyr level by reducing challanging to a ground for others who enjoys it
Or those who demands those miss chance pugs to invest in defense learn to back off use buffs use special attacks

Exactly which base of players are those zergers who goes all way damage? Do you see issue i tell, you can't admit you have issues, and even to hide them you demand game nerfing to challange other way, than damage/hp while multiple ppl in this thread told they love how it is as only challanging content right now and that they have neither issues to clear those quests by playing smart not zerging using tactics heals or use they dc there.

[Vanhooger]

And thats my point only real end content which looks as EE should be is Necro4/ToEE and other quests should be adjusted by looking at them (they are new quests louched including all changes game had) and it's bad practise to compare them to current EE or 95% content we have this is outdated. You understnad?

You and most here demands only challanging content to be downgraded to theyr level
Instead of improving all remainig content to proper level.

And as most here told they have chance to avoid 80% hits making monsters to hit 1/5 times. but hitting hard couse again they focus on miss chance instead of defense? You demand to solve it by reducing damage
so those who focus on defense as all should be, have close to none issue in those quests to take 2-5 hits jump our heal and go dps again making another PUGISH unchallanging difficulty, tell again who is wrong,

Those who demands to adjust content to theyr level by reducing challanging to a ground for others who enjoys it
Or those who demands those miss chance pugs to invest in defense learn to back off use buffs use special attacks

Exactly which base of players are those zergers who goes all way damage? Do you see issue i tell, you can't admit you have issues, and even to hide them you demand game nerfing to challange other way, than damage/hp while multiple ppl in this thread told they love how it is as only challanging content right now and that they have neither issues to clear those quests by playing smart not zerging using tactics heals or use they dc there.

I am not demanding less challenge, I demand challenge in a different way then usal HP/damage, how many time I have to write it?

People here seems to refuse any other challenge that is not damge/hp, and I have problem understand it.

I do not have problem with my toons running EE toee or Necro IV, big hit for me isn't a challenge it just take 10 min more to finish a quest. Big hit to me is no challenge is just plain boring.

As well if they tone down a bit necro IV & toee and use that as a standard on any EE I'll be happy as well.

[Raithe]

It is a fact.

No, it isn't. It's you being confused.

Mob groups that contain a cleric in ToEE are immediately hit with some combination of freedom of movement and/or deathward when the cleric becomes active. After that you would probably have to dispel (usually not possible in EE because you'll be rolling against maximum caster level) in order to land holds. That has nothing to do with DC, they are simply buffed against the spells so they no longer work. I ran ToEE the day it was released. I ran it yesterday. There has been very little change in the ability to hold mobs, and the DC is entirely reasonable. My sorceror with no enchantment focus can hold mobs in EE ToEE on a regular basis, as long as they are non-divine and susceptible. You are simply doing something wrong.

As for fascinate, I have 3 bards. My Warchanter has about ~60 perform, my Swashbuckler about ~70 perform, and my Spellsinger has a 96 perform skill typically. They all perform fascinations similarly in ToEE EE except the ones with a 60 and 70 perform skill often fail to fascinate divine opponents - which isn't that big of deal because I'll be killing those first anyway. Fascinating mobs does take some know-how - it is based on line of sight, and other mobs can get in the way of the line-of-sight checks. The best way to fascinate is to have a 40+ jump, and just before you think the fascinate is going to take effect, jump. It improves the chances that the line-of-sight check will succeed.

You want to make this mostly about Paladins/Barbarians vs "lesser" classes. The much larger disparity is between 8/9 year vets and 3/4 year midlings. There aren't enough 8/9 year vets to warrant the damage that ToEE mobs dish out, even compensating for the fact that the quest is technically 2 levels away from the current cap. It's a fun quest, it should be fun to play it using a variety of group makeups and melee strategies, even on elite. Unfortunately, Turbine and DDO are full of metagamers and their goals are to prove themselves superior through grind - elitism and discrimination come naturally to those objectives.

[AzureDragonas]

And before somone try say opposite, I support what i think Thread creator really ment, is that Certain end boss are too easy, compared to quest and should be made stronger, there is no issue for monsters being to strong, multiple players confirmed that dc works, multiple confirmed they survive there even farm and even more confirmed they dont get 1-2 hit killed unless they do mistakes like ignoring damage dealing monsters or zerging pulling too many monsters. Those 2 packs on EE are example how real EE should look seems communiti got here rusty and forgot how real Epics used to be before and that those 2 packs right now reminds us of good days we had. So before making any more misleading ideas how to reduce to ground real EE content to those EE walkups we have and some feel proud, instead pay attention how and why those same ppl who put videos how they solo do and how they acheive that. Even if you blame scaling i doubt 6 ppl who already can solo EE there would have any bigger issue together they would do it even faster and easier.

Issue is not difficulty being too hard but playerbase itself demanding balanding arround them. You can't survive ee there again devs made 2 extra difficulties you can play, maybe indeed you are not good enough for ee as others who run it.

And on top of that if newbies require EE to be build arround them, what veterans should do. Same newbies should first run EN EH learn quests and maybe after getting some gear experience join those who already run EE.

[ned_ellis]

Dude get down from that throne of yours or pink glasses you use i point as many others did Heroic content gives no challange at all already it's easy on any class or any build as long as you know quests and have proper items knowelodge to do them. If you say to feel challange i should run higher level than i quests, technicly you suggest me to skip half content for a small challange which is again non existance right now. you think if at lvl quest 15 monster hits me 5-9 damage on hit after all dr i have, it makes any difference if i were lvl 11 in same lvl 15 elite quest, but having a bit lower hp?
ppl stack dozen resistance - elemental damage specialy acid arrows which were killing does nothing
put shield - MM does nothing
put fom - no one will even touch you with hold monster
drink that pot from market of evil protection you never be on ground from greater command etc
let them hit you. Already players runs ignoring 50% damage before dr comes in.

I point Heroic are already not worth any challange at all they are too easy to challange us, couse most content was designed to challange us 5-8 years ago when game come out.

For others who still try prove theyr point of game unfairness there are these words, it's not to insult but to open for some blind people eyes whats going on arround:

Right now EE moving to same direction, challanging again as we saw paladins barbarians who just cleave with no issues or warlocks who blast throw content reaching cap faster than you reach 20 on EE difficluty. Why i say this?
Devs made adjustments too right direction with champs and new quests remake like Necro4/ToEE, which actualy challange player base, and then somone who is used to run other EE who is again Barely gets challanged for years start screaming it's not fair theyr "epic toons" unable to survive in there means those quests have issues. End game content like necro4/toee and then comes to mind that Legendary gonna be something similiar and even harder they make waves about those quests being unfair and killing them.

HELLO there are 2 easier difficulites which exist and they can run and there is EE dificuly which actualy feels like EE and challange smaller part of players who actually feels it's how it supposed to be, and get challanged.

This game in last years got so boring you can build without thinking to much it will work, i barely even plan my feats skills anymore just roll and go, it will work out anyway, and only ray of hope which keeps me promises about challanging content and new legendary difficulty which i hope wont be fiasko, adjusted for same crybabies who feels inferior after dying from 1-2 hits while afk standing and using autoattacks.

First days of Champions release even challanged paladins who were invincible. Image what kind of cry was raised when somone who dont move a inch and used to get non to low damage all the time, actualy starts getting hitted and hard. Current champs are same weak monsters who by accident and randomization sometimes gets abilities making them still deadly (most of times its extra damage on projectile casters).

Triple completionist on everything making thread to show how broken end game content is comapred to other walkup quests?
I teached and helped multiple first lifers about EE, and they doing better than old geezers sitting on that shiny gear for so many years? Guildie fighter who uses THF and runs same quests with us dying 0 times, and having normal kill count even surviving those "scary monsters" with first lifer gear using sireth at 28, tell me what is issue some people unable to comperhand game and being lazy in quests to even use simple tactics dodge kite heal up, or that monsters damage hp is scaling so they wont die in 2 secs or even get chance to hit while missing 80% times? If somone told let's balance game making monsters in similiar boat, having dodge\ac\ghostly\prr\resistance\buffs\displacment\ TS etc and then pairing them to players, you know what uproar there would be, people here talks about unfairness of monsters being able to kill them, or challanging more than quest boss. Talk about unfairness ToEE end fight in p1 is joke? Hell yeah, if same caster would cast flesh to sone/ desintegrate/poolar rays/or killed you without save would it be more interresting? Hell no, you ask challange from caster bosses telling they should be stronger than archers while at same time crossing hands to any effect which could kill you. so whats left tranform all quest bosses to dragons/giants and other bosses who does like zugmoty to challange you fairly?

Sorry to tell you there is no fair game for a long time classes getting passes, stronger and stronger gear appearing, pl stacking, players getting more smart and to blame game and quests of "unfairness" is insult while years ago most of us were wiping on those same quests demanding nerfs to make game easier.

Here good example:
DA before was wipable most of times with no cc and ppl challanged it for 2 tokens, look now, you hit lvl 20 and solo it on ee. Do you can compare stasis of game before and now.

I am NOT saying run higher lvl quests - I am saying run AT lvl quests and if u want more difficulty raise it of that AT lvl quest which is EXACTLY the same as ur suggestion without wasting dev time...u don't have to do all the quests; u seem to enjoy tr's so do them next life...
We actually agree on wanting challenge in the game but ur way of putting you points across is...frustrating?! The 'triple completionist' you mention so disparagingly started to thread about 5 specific quests that t devs hav admitted to using as tests for manual mob stat setting and new end game in which certain discrepancies are/have been noticed. He also entertains the idea that the difficulty should be articulated over more factors than dmg per hit - are these points so heinous they are worth subjecting us to your endless stream of boasting and naysaying?! Or perhaps u nvr read past 'less dmg'...? Either way, my replies to u end here - u will surely get ur way as ppl drop ou from exhaustion; to the poor 'triple completionist' I prefer u good luck and might suggest a fresh thread to g a constructive discussion going. /sigh

Ps : people are not 'blind' if they don't agree with you and as for my throne : the king is dead; long live the king!

[nokowi]

Again, I am not suggesting ENecro be just like every other epic quest. I am suggesting a better balance the mobs damage dish out. This is why it's so frustrating trying to have a discussion on the forums. I've now repeated this at least 3 or 4 times.

"All EE quests should have their bar raised comparable to ENecro because it doesn't make sense to have a handful of quests that are well above other EE quests. If all quests were designed the same way with mobs dealing 2-3 hits that kill most builds, than we would see what history has proven to us."

This is what I heard, and objected to.

In a discussion, you need to stick to your main points if you want others to realize what your main point is.

[nokowi]

I am not demanding less challenge, I demand challenge in a different way then usal HP/damage, how many time I have to write it?

I do not have problem with my toons running EE toee or Necro IV, big hit for me isn't a challenge it just take 10 min more to finish a quest. Big hit to me is no challenge is just plain boring.



Your insight is that if players can just build around challenge (high PRR/MRR toon), the game is still boring even with ramped up HP/damage.

The solution is to have PLAY skills and group tactics that get you by challenge, without allowing BUILD that completely removes that challenge.

DDO players overwhelmingly build around challenge. Players should be able to reduce challenge through build choices, but not be able to completely eliminate it.

This means not having all no-fail saves, while having even your weak (maximized) save still have some chance of success.
This means high PRR/MRR not taking 1/2 as much damage as dodge toons (70% mitigation vs 40% mitigation).
It also means reducing mob damage (once the above adjustments are made), because mobs will be able to provide more intelligent means of challenge.

[AzureDragonas]

I am NOT saying run higher lvl quests - I am saying run AT lvl quests and if u want more difficulty raise it of that AT lvl quest which is EXACTLY the same as ur suggestion without wasting dev time...u don't have to do all the quests; u seem to enjoy tr's so do them next life...
We actually agree on wanting challenge in the game but ur way of putting you points across is...frustrating?! The 'triple completionist' you mention so disparagingly started to thread about 5 specific quests that t devs hav admitted to using as tests for manual mob stat setting and new end game in which certain discrepancies are/have been noticed. He also entertains the idea that the difficulty should be articulated over more factors than dmg per hit - are these points so heinous they are worth subjecting us to your endless stream of boasting and naysaying?! Or perhaps u nvr read past 'less dmg'...? Either way, my replies to u end here - u will surely get ur way as ppl drop ou from exhaustion; to the poor 'triple completionist' I prefer u good luck and might suggest a fresh thread to g a constructive discussion going. /sigh

Ps : people are not 'blind' if they don't agree with you and as for my throne : the king is dead; long live the king!

I talk heroism are too easy on elite you suggest for those who think like that do what? Go start running +5 level quests so there will be point? Who is wrong here you saying I do mistake by running hardest difficulty quests designed for my level or I bay saying my level quests are too easy on elite to be considered elite sry it's hard to follow you, and here's a way to challenge allow monsters have TS ghostly bypass dodge fortification and prr at some extent. Remove free heal buttons and also them apply debut as chance to reduce your healing and then require to reduce damage you won't why? Suddenly you loose all effects that makes you too strong. Instead of turning down your power you demand to challenge other ways before by removing damage monsters can do, random deadly traps. Casters bypassing or disjunction your guards? None of real solutions would appeal you best. I those quests should be mark what shows how ee should be. Don't try downgrade quests to your level what you think those who left before U14 when at 20 6-men groups were wiping same day and now ppl solo it at 20. As long as there are no challenge left ppl will leave, if there is something hard they don't give but try till successful, how many would stay after beating everything game have to challenge? None there is nothing to do no goal even at heroism ppl roll as gods so issue is devs gave all this stuff to players without making how to challenge them. And so far making monsters having more HP makes them won't die too fast from increasing damage, and massive damage gives chance to harm while everyone keep stacking defenseman and miss chance.
There is reason why this approach taken but you ignore it.

[Vanhooger]

Your insight is that if players can just build around challenge (high PRR/MRR toon), the game is still boring even with ramped up HP/damage.

The solution is to have PLAY skills and group tactics that get you by challenge, without allowing BUILD that completely removes that challenge.

DDO players overwhelmingly build around challenge. Players should be able to reduce challenge through build choices, but not be able to completely eliminate it.

This means not having all no-fail saves, while having even your weak (maximized) save still have some chance of success.
This means high PRR/MRR not taking 1/2 as much damage as dodge toons (70% mitigation vs 40% mitigation).
It also means reducing mob damage (once the above adjustments are made), because mobs will be able to provide more intelligent means of challenge.

This.

I also said on another post to remove perma immunities from ench & item so you actually have more chance to fail, that does not depend on prr/dodge.

Stupid example...toee pt2 endfight. Barb should suck because one of his weakness is reflex save but, you know they have knockdown immunity.
This is just one example...I could provide plenty more.
But look like people here is scared to have immunities removed as they could actually die in quest whitout the need of any big damage.

[BigErkyKid]

As for fascinate, I have 3 bards. My Warchanter has about ~60 perform, my Swashbuckler about ~70 perform, and my Spellsinger has a 96 perform skill typically. They all perform fascinations similarly in ToEE EE except the ones with a 60 and 70 perform skill often fail to fascinate divine opponents - which isn't that big of deal because I'll be killing those first anyway. Fascinating mobs does take some know-how - it is based on line of sight, and other mobs can get in the way of the line-of-sight checks. The best way to fascinate is to have a 40+ jump, and just before you think the fascinate is going to take effect, jump. It improves the chances that the line-of-sight check will succeed.

I have gone into TOEE, stood facing mobs and them saved 90+1d20 on perform. I don't think I am doing it wrong, it is just that at some point the changed the saves (or for whatever reason a bunch of unusual bad rolls on my side). I went in with a guildy not long ago specifically to test that and the player could stop most mobs. I reported this elsewhere already.


You want to make this mostly about Paladins/Barbarians vs "lesser" classes. The much larger disparity is between 8/9 year vets and 3/4 year midlings. There aren't enough 8/9 year vets to warrant the damage that ToEE mobs dish out, even compensating for the fact that the quest is technically 2 levels away from the current cap. It's a fun quest, it should be fun to play it using a variety of group makeups and melee strategies, even on elite. Unfortunately, Turbine and DDO are full of metagamers and their goals are to prove themselves superior through grind - elitism and discrimination come naturally to those objectives.

Sure, having best in slot gear, quest knowledge, class knowledge, good companions. All those things matter. But this is not to say that there is not an inherent disparity between the classes. That remains a fact. I know because I have played in both the power classes and the rest recently. Whatever my skill is, it remains the same. And guess what, the difference is huge.

[ned_ellis]

Nokowi has summed it up best I think.
Azure-you haven't understood a word I've said.

In general, with devs starting to manually adjust mob stats they might find the sweet spot in time; lets hope they introduce alternative dynamics and stop th power creep at the same time...

[slarden]

Nokowi has summed it up best I think.
Azure-you haven't understood a word I've said.

In general, with devs starting to manually adjust mob stats they might find the sweet spot in time; lets hope they introduce alternative dynamics and stop th power creep at the same time...

Yeah, I think people are completely missing the point that monster stats are off across the board - some too easy and some too hard. People that are making this into a difficulty discussion solely don't get it at all. The nodes in TOEE part 2 EE are much easier than before U28. Same with all the end fights in Necro and TOEE part 1.

I am mainly concerned about U29 and beyond - I doubt I will be running those quests much in the future anyhow except for first time bonuses. It is concerning that the devs made massive changes to monster stats and don't know what changed. These specific enemy changes weren't intentional by the devs, they made changes to the way monster stats work globally in level 30+ quests only and the results just happened. They didn't tweak or test every monster.

They are focused on U29 so don't expect this to get addressed fully if at all. I hope they are at least tweaking the monsters properly in U29. I don't care if the monsters are more difficult o LE - that would be welcome. I just hope there is some logic to the monster stats.

[AzureDragonas]

Yeah, I think people are completely missing the point that monster stats are off across the board - some too easy and some too hard. People that are making this into a difficulty discussion solely don't get it at all. The nodes in TOEE part 2 EE are much easier than before U28. Same with all the end fights in Necro and TOEE part 1.

I am mainly concerned about U29 and beyond - I doubt I will be running those quests much in the future anyhow except for first time bonuses. It is concerning that the devs made massive changes to monster stats and don't know what changed. These specific enemy changes weren't intentional by the devs, they made changes to the way monster stats work globally in level 30+ quests only and the results just happened. They didn't tweak or test every monster.

They are focused on U29 so don't expect this to get addressed fully if at all. I hope they are at least tweaking the monsters properly in U29. I don't care if the monsters are more difficult o LE - that would be welcome. I just hope there is some logic to the monster stats.

I am so happy you aren't developer otherwise all those mosnters in temple would be identical. If you can't see there is lets say 10 monsters in group
2 casters
1-2 assasins
3 archers
5 melee

And those imbalanced monsters who kills you are those assasing you ignore for some reason and call them inbalanced then sry.

For heroics it's simple example at lvl 15 undermine Elite, not even triple completionist by current power at heroic just standing amonk orcs and getting 80% miss and damage from 0-9. Indeed real heroic elite to challange all those past lifes and gear i got if on normal ranger build i deal in heroics with this how you think tanks pass those quests who uses heavy armors and have twice as much prr by now.

standing against orcs of elite undermine
http://i63.tinypic.com/o6dusm.jpg
my regeneration without even full amp possible by now
http://i64.tinypic.com/2r76ezt.jpg
lvl 7 Toee weapon lucky trigger after making 1 cleave?
http://i63.tinypic.com/jqkgea.jpg
normal encahntments by ranger at this level
http://i68.tinypic.com/2lnjwid.jpg
killing miniboss who is another no challange encounter.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2rcbq74.jpg

So far biggest crit i made on helpless was 850 at lvl 15. its more than 1.5 hp monsters have
Toee and necro4 should be model again to show how ee should challange.

For that HP/Damage thing to find other way to challange me. Challange what? your 80% miss chance your uber damage which scales with each update and those 70% or so damage reduction? or miss chance from ac so high most monsters miss you?

Right stuning you my friend for 3 seconds while most of time you make save by having uber 100+ each save really gonna give challange

There is cycle player base demands new stuff, game evolves making players too strong, all got used to it, and when something kick theyr buts becouse they got lazy on reacting healing etc it's called (fix it).

And for those who still havetn read or got idea. End game content must be challanging EE must be challanging 95% alrready soloable walkup etc, and if you can't do those 5% remaining EE as walkup, and die means you dont belong here. most ppl do it daily and enjoy and instead of demanding balancing by downgrading challanging quests.

You should demand increase of challanging quests. Otherwise where else you gonna use those shinny new items or effects devs works to introduce

There are 2 easier difficulties you belong if all game would favor weaker players alowing them to run hardest difficulty when what stronger players have left?

[ned_ellis]

Yeah, I think people are completely missing the point that monster stats are off across the board - some too easy and some too hard. People that are making this into a difficulty discussion solely don't get it at all. The nodes in TOEE part 2 EE are much easier than before U28. Same with all the end fights in Necro and TOEE part 1.

I am mainly concerned about U29 and beyond - I doubt I will be running those quests much in the future anyhow except for first time bonuses. It is concerning that the devs made massive changes to monster stats and don't know what changed. These specific enemy changes weren't intentional by the devs, they made changes to the way monster stats work globally in level 30+ quests only and the results just happened. They didn't tweak or test every monster.

They are focused on U29 so don't expect this to get addressed fully if at all. I hope they are at least tweaking the monsters properly in U29. I don't care if the monsters are more difficult o LE - that would be welcome. I just hope there is some logic to the monster stats.

It's going to take them some time indeed. I'm not thrilled either r.e. Legendary; with the blobs of extra power given in the feats it seems set to continue the dps/prr path...here's to hoping I'm wrong!

[slarden]

I am so happy you aren't developer otherwise all those mosnters in temple would be identical. If you can't see there is lets say 10 monsters in group
2 casters
1-2 assasins
3 archers
5 melee

And those imbalanced monsters who kills you are those assasing you ignore for some reason and call them inbalanced then sry.

For heroics it's simple example at lvl 15 undermine Elite, not even triple completionist by current power at heroic just standing amonk orcs and getting 80% miss and damage from 0-9. Indeed real heroic elite to challange all those past lifes and gear i got if on normal ranger build i deal in heroics with this how you think tanks pass those quests who uses heavy armors and have twice as much prr by now.

standing against orcs of elite undermine

my regeneration without even full amp possible by now

lvl 7 Toee weapon lucky trigger after making 1 cleave?

normal encahntments by ranger at this level

killing miniboss who is another no challange encounter.


So far biggest crit i made on helpless was 850 at lvl 15. its more than 1.5 hp monsters have
Toee and necro4 should be model again to show how ee should challange.

For that HP/Damage thing to find other way to challange me. Challange what? your 80% miss chance your uber damage which scales with each update and those 70% or so damage reduction? or miss chance from ac so high most monsters miss you?

Right stuning you my friend for 3 seconds while most of time you make save by having uber 100+ each save really gonna give challange

There is cycle player base demands new stuff, game evolves making players too strong, all got used to it, and when something kick theyr buts becouse they got lazy on reacting healing etc it's called (fix it).

And for those who still havetn read or got idea. End game content must be challanging EE must be challanging 95% alrready soloable walkup etc, and if you can't do those 5% remaining EE as walkup, and die means you dont belong here. most ppl do it daily and enjoy and instead of demanding balancing by downgrading challanging quests.

You should demand increase of challanging quests. Otherwise where else you gonna use those shinny new items or effects devs works to introduce

There are 2 easier difficulties you belong if all game would favor weaker players alowing them to run hardest difficulty when what stronger players have left?

You make too many assumptions lol.

First of all who said anything about getting killed in there? I have been farming TOEE part 1 for mushroom with 2 dual boxes on EE - so 1 player scaled up for 3. As I said, other than the archers and temple guards most of the enemies are too easy in there. The monster stats were the result of a change and random - with no planning for good design as they were previously.

Did you not read what I said? I said TOEE part 2 is easier than before due to the random monster stats other than a few archers and temple guards. I also said I wanted more challenge, but with some thought and planning to it. Not archers being tougher than the end boss - that is boring.

You are on Sarlona so I will give you a chance to run TOEE EE part 1 - 2 man with me and see if your actions can live up to your insulting words (see bold above). Otherwise your comments have no credibility to me.

[ned_ellis]

You make too many assumptions lol.

First of all who said anything about getting killed in there? I have been farming TOEE part 1 for mushroom with 2 dual boxes on EE - so 1 player scaled up for 3. As I said, other than the archers and temple guards most of the enemies are too easy in there. The monster stats were the result of a change and random - with no planning for good design as they were previously.

Did you not read what I said? I said TOEE part 2 is easier than before due to the random monster stats other than a few archers and temple guards. I also said I wanted more challenge, but with some thought and planning to it. Not archers being tougher than the end boss - that is boring.

You are on Sarlona so I will give you a chance to run TOEE EE part 1 - 2 man with me and see if your actions can live up to your insulting words (see bold above). Otherwise your comments have no credibility to me.

Let us know how that goes slarden ;)

[Qhualor]

"All EE quests should have their bar raised comparable to ENecro because it doesn't make sense to have a handful of quests that are well above other EE quests. If all quests were designed the same way with mobs dealing 2-3 hits that kill most builds, than we would see what history has proven to us."

This is what I heard, and objected to.

In a discussion, you need to stick to your main points if you want others to realize what your main point is.

Context is very important in a discussion.

Like I said in a post in this thread, it doesn't make sense to only have a handful of quests like ENecro and than "97%" of the other quests be "like every other quest". There is a big difference between the 2. Do players build for ENecro or do they skip the "3%" and build around the "97%"? The devs need to design quests across the board with a similar challenge level. I think they should do the same with the other "97%" of quests and raise that bar.

[Thrudh]

I said TOEE part 2 is easier than before due to the random monster stats other than a few archers and temple guards.

So, is TOEE too hard or too easy?


I also said I wanted more challenge, but with some thought and planning to it. Not archers being tougher than the end boss - that is boring.

Why does tough archers make the quest more boring? You want only the boss fight to be hard?

Tough archers make people play smarter and SLOWER... And what the OP is complaining about is having to play SLOWER... Well, too bad... You shouldn't get to ZERG through end-game content on epic elite. The OP can complete the quests just fine... Nothing needs to be "toned down". He only wants things "toned down" so he can complete faster.

[slarden]

So, is TOEE too hard or too easy?

Why does tough archers make the quest more boring? You want only the boss fight to be hard?

Tough archers make people play smarter and SLOWER... And what the OP is complaining about is having to play SLOWER... Well, too bad... You shouldn't get to ZERG through end-game content on epic elite. The OP can complete the quests just fine... Nothing needs to be "toned down". He only wants things "toned down" so he can complete faster.

I have not and will not make any comments on what the overall difficulty of quests should be - that is up to the devs.

First of all have you run the quests on EE since U28? Just to make sure I am chatting about this with a person who actually ran the content and understands the before/after comparison?

Too easy / Too hard is entirely the wrong way to word it and the wrong question to ask - it's not consistent within the same quest. Whacko is the right way to describe the quests since U28. The #s are completely different than they were before U28 and the devs already acknowledged they didn't really look at the impact on each monster after making this global change only to level 30 quests.

As I said before, the issue isn't difficulty - it's monster statting. There are instances where enemy damage is signficantly ramped up and cases where it's way too easy in the same quest. The U27 and U28 quests don't have this issue, just Necro and TOEE part 1.

One example where monster statting matters is for builds that make heavy use of DC abilities rather than just straight dps. There are already good examples provided where monster saves and DCs are off in the various threads. Those are always countered with examples where the saves are too easy - which is also true. The point is things are not right in those quests and it's clear to people that run it. I've been running alot of TOEE EE part 1 and 2 for shrooms and armor.

The biggest change I noticed is how easy TOEE part 2 is once you get to the nodes - it feels like EH. Certain versions of temple guards and archers hit much harder than they used to in TOEE. The bosses in EE TOEE part 1 feels like EN. The bosses in EE Necro are also easy.

They seemed to pay attention to the stats in U27 and U28 as those don't have the same issues - it's just Necro and TOEE where things are off - both directions.