Lvl 7 Elite Dungeon - 220 damage from trap

[Greyhawk6]

I must have been in the trap less than a second and was forced to make 3 saves. Come on....I even made 2 of the 3 saves! 42 & 55 damage from saved attempts and 123 damage from failed.

I thought excessive trap damage had been sorted out? Absolutely no fun at all.

Needless to say instant death and recall.

[Darkmits]

Traps shouldn't hit more than once per 4-6 seconds tbh. I don't know if it's considered WAI that they can hit up to 10 times per sec. The damage though seems to be just right, assuming you have 30 resistance on elements.

[arkonas]

what dungeon were you in and what trap?

[Ralmeth]

Sound like an elite trap to me. I've gotten killed in them many times. It's not fun, but at least next time you'll remember where the trap is at. Someone commented to me before...man you know where all the traps are at and you just run through them, jump over them, etc! I just think to myself, yeah, well, that's because you weren't around for all those times I got killed by them. ;)

[unbongwah]

Where was this, The Pit? Only lvl 7 quest I can think of with that kind of successive trap dmg.

[hit_fido]

Where was this, The Pit? Only lvl 7 quest I can think of with that kind of successive trap dmg.

Gwylans has a variety of traps including some spinning blades that tend to hit multiple times quickly.

Regardless... potential for trap death on elite? Sounds like it is working as intended.

[TheOldCodger]

Im guessing Temple of Elemental Evil...

It seems to me that newer content like heroic ToEE, Trial of the Archons, and Devil's Gambit all have unusually nasty trap damage and mob area of effect damage for their given level range.

For some folks the greater challenge makes for a more exciting/fun adventure; others not so much.
Regardless, this seems to be the direction the game is headed...

My basic gripe is that server populations are often so low, that forming a remotely well rounded LFM party just isn't going to happen.

What often happens is that lots of frustrated folks skip entire updates of content at level.
(to the folks who create game content: this effectively "wastes" a fair chunk of the time, money, and creative effort that was intended to entertain, delight, and challenge players for X number of hours and X dollars of VIP subscription time/Turbine Points spent at the store)

Just my thoughts/opinions...

[hit_fido]

For some folks the greater challenge makes for a more exciting/fun adventure; others not so much.



People who run elite and find it too difficult have options to ramp that down (hard, normal, even casual); people who run elite and find it not challenging enough currently have no option to ramp it up.

The implication is that Turbine stands to gain nothing by making heroic elite difficulty easier than it is now. But they've gone a long way already toward making it no longer necessary to run elite. XP is trivial at this point, due to ever increasing numbers of quests, elimination of permanent repeat penalty, and even the ability to pause the bravery streak. Pause bravery, run it on hard, then run it on elite later if you want the favor.

[Sooty]

Elite = not normal ... sorry, but if you want to stand in traps and not die, then either build a character that can, or play on normal.

I do not have a single character that can stand in a trap at level and not die. It is part of the fun, avoiding traps, having someone in the group that can deal with them, or take a rogue hireling, but don't complain that a trap on elite actually killed you, really? My other half is still laughing :)

[Greyhawk6]

1st module in delera's - I lagged into the **** thing and ran right out but died before I could get to the other side. Trap in corridor as you move down to the rooms that close on you.

[bls904c2]

1st module in delera's - I lagged into the **** thing and ran right out but died before I could get to the other side. Trap in corridor as you move down to the rooms that close on you.

died a many times in that there trap. been that way for years, ya hear. now get outa here young wipper snapper.

all seriousness man that the traps in delera's have taken people almost every pug i go on. nothing new.

[Infiltraitor]

I must have been in the trap less than a second and was forced to make 3 saves. Come on....I even made 2 of the 3 saves! 42 & 55 damage from saved attempts and 123 damage from failed.

I thought excessive trap damage had been sorted out? Absolutely no fun at all.

Needless to say instant death and recall.

For elite difficulty at level 7, it is best to run with Cannich crafted +5 con, false life +30, +2 con tomes, +20 guild augment hp, pirate vitality +10, aid potion +11, etc for about 300-375 hp at level 7. Elite should at least offer some difficulty to Elite players.

[1Soulless1]

1st module in delera's - I lagged into the **** thing and ran right out but died before I could get to the other side. Trap in corridor as you move down to the rooms that close on you.

WAI. Next topic please.


Have you consider a lower difficulty?

[RoberttheBard]

Elite = not normal ... sorry, but if you want to stand in traps and not die, then either build a character that can, or play on normal.

I do not have a single character that can stand in a trap at level and not die. It is part of the fun, avoiding traps, having someone in the group that can deal with them, or take a rogue hireling, but don't complain that a trap on elite actually killed you, really? My other half is still laughing :)

Heh, my Assassin got locked in the blade room in HH, and my guildy was outside freaking out that I was going to die. Never got hit once, stood right in the middle of the blades searching up the box, and disabled them. Not for the faint of heart, though. I like building characters that can do that. Not all of them can, of course, but when you can, it's fun to watch other people's reactions.

[gaffneyks]

Im guessing Temple of Elemental Evil...

It seems to me that newer content like heroic ToEE, Trial of the Archons, and Devil's Gambit all have unusually nasty trap damage and mob area of effect damage for their given level range.

For some folks the greater challenge makes for a more exciting/fun adventure; others not so much.
Regardless, this seems to be the direction the game is headed...

My basic gripe is that server populations are often so low, that forming a remotely well rounded LFM party just isn't going to happen.

What often happens is that lots of frustrated folks skip entire updates of content at level.
(to the folks who create game content: this effectively "wastes" a fair chunk of the time, money, and creative effort that was intended to entertain, delight, and challenge players for X number of hours and X dollars of VIP subscription time/Turbine Points spent at the store)

Just my thoughts/opinions...

Very True, The game is in a flux, they need to decide if they want the game to be a grind, or if they want to have a really challenging game.

[slarden]

It sounds like you already understand the benefit of saves.

Basic ways to mitigate trap damage

1) Trapping skills
2) Evasion + decent reflex save
3) Resists (30 resist from old ship buffs + whatever new ship buffs give on top of that)
4) MRR

Many people build with 2 levels of rogue, evasion and a high reflex every life to avoid trap damage and get the trap disabling bonuses.

The biggest recent change was the introduction of MRR and then removing MRR from armor. If people got used to that the damage reduction from MRR on their armor the traps might seem much harder since it was removed. In reality Turbine made the game much easier in heroics by introducing MRR and didn't rebalance any old quests. So what you are seeing now is likely softer than it was when the quest was new and MRR wasn't available.

If you don't have evasion swapping on a tower shield for 15 MRR can help some when running through traps. Even if you aren't a shield user - you can get 15 MRR just for the trap by swapping it on. You can get 11 MRR from level 7 mysterious cloak. Those 2 items alone would give you about 20% damage reduction - and you can swap them on only for traps if you wish.

[Nestroy]

The damage sounds like the usual trap lag spike for me. Whenever I enter a trap, I get a sudden lag spike, get hit 2-3 times by the trap and if not enough HP left I get dinged. Idk what the **** this is but I have seen this all the times since U14 or so and meanwhile adapted. The fun part: This can even happen (the spike + ding) to evasion toons.

But ofc a new player not used to that kind of odd trap behavior (the server hickup included - yes, the best part is getting the same random number assigned to the save for at least 2 out of 3 times) will think the traps do over the top damage. It´s not the trap actually, but the odd server hickup behavior perhaps caused by the trap.

As many already said, damage mittigation, good reflex saves, evasion and best PR/MRR do help a lot. As does bunking hit points and metagaming the trap.

[Greyhawk6]

I know how to avoid traps - I cant help the lag though. What concerned me was the damage seemed severe for such a low level trap. If I had to make 1 save it wouldn't have been so bad but for some unknown reason I had to make 3 and so quickly I didn't have chance to do anything about it. Could have been the lag spike causing the multiple saves I guess.

[AtomicMew]

I know how to avoid traps - I cant help the lag though. What concerned me was the damage seemed severe for such a low level trap. If I had to make 1 save it wouldn't have been so bad but for some unknown reason I had to make 3 and so quickly I didn't have chance to do anything about it. Could have been the lag spike causing the multiple saves I guess.

220 damage at level 7 isn't severe. Most people have more HP than 220 at that level.

[Dragnipurake]

220 damage at level 7 isn't severe. Most people have more HP than 220 at that level.

In what dreamworld?

The average DDO char is not a multiple-pastlife TR with bank space full of equipment.

[Dragnipurake]

For elite difficulty at level 7, it is best to run with Cannich crafted +5 con, false life +30, +2 con tomes, +20 guild augment hp, pirate vitality +10, aid potion +11, etc for about 300-375 hp at level 7. Elite should at least offer some difficulty to Elite players.

The average DDO char can not craft +5 con at lvl7, is not full DDO store geared, most likely has no access to guild augments, has not had the luck to find this kind of gear as random loot etc.

In short: Get in contact with reality.

[dunklezhan]

1st module in delera's - I lagged into the **** thing and ran right out but died before I could get to the other side. Trap in corridor as you move down to the rooms that close on you.

That is, I believe four elite traps. One trap box, but four 'nozzles', if its the cold trap I'm thinking of. I'm surprised its only 220 damage.

[dunklezhan]

220 damage at level 7 isn't severe. Most people have more HP than 220 at that level.

Lol, no they don't. But some certainly do, and any that can't provide their own resistances/good ref saves/evasion certainly should, if they expect to survive traps on elite at that level.

Edit: OP I'm not dismissing your capabilities or attacking whether you have any business being there on elite. I don't know you, and its none of my business anyway. All I'm saying is 'yeah, elite traps at level are basically one of the few things in the game that can still kill a vet stone dead, that damage with two saves and a fail seems about right to me'. That's all.

[Starla70]

In what dreamworld?

The average DDO char is not a multiple-pastlife TR with bank space full of equipment.

I totally agree with this. It seems one issue here is those with completionist and epic Completionist have those points, so all players should. That is a fact that is just not happening as fast as it seems others want it to. I can't get to that point quickly. Many others can not either, so that raises the question is DDO going only to those who can play hard and fast? I know in my guild we have 3 people who have stopped playing in the last 3 weeks to a month, simply because of these changes. All were VIP, I am not sure anymore.

Now another point, the traps in many quests are now random. Some I have disabled for years are just not there, then a few feet away a new one is there. I actually like that, but in changing the trap at times they are harder when they do show up. I am not sure if that is wai or not. With all the updates and changes I think it might be.

The lag can be deadly at any level. I certainly have seen no change to it with the changes to many shot.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I have sympathy, but actually this sounds about right.

I've been in ToEE (livestreaming no less) --- on heroic elite with a first life toon. 120ish points of damage from a failed trap save is about right.

ToEE is supposed to be hard, even on casual. Normal is supposed to be harder; hard is supposed to be nasty; and elite is supposed to be insane.

If you don't want to take trap damage, have a trapper. However, ToEE is / was designed so that you can complete without a trapper, and therefor traps will kill you 99% of the time if you try to just run through them like most people do in regular content.

IMHO more content needs to be like this.

[1Soulless1]

The average DDO char can not craft +5 con at lvl7, is not full DDO store geared, most likely has no access to guild augments, has not had the luck to find this kind of gear as random loot etc.

In short: Get in contact with reality.



Who are these 'average' DDO toons you talk about. Most people i've randomly pug'ed with over various lives know at least some of these basics. There is really no excuse for not having ship buffs it's as easy as saying "May I get a ship ping please?" Most people are ok with it.

Anyone can canneth craft. All it takes is some time and dedication. It's not easy or quick to get to the higher level stuff, but if you are going to TR a lot it's well worth the time and investment.

This just reminds me of people who say "Why wont you think of the new players!!!??!?!" and want stuff handed to them on a silver platter.

Again like I told the OP if elite traps are to much for a 'average' DDO character maybe they shouldn't be playing on elite. There is two other difficulty levels to play as a 1st or 2nd lifer wont need as much xp to cap out as a 3rd lifer.

As for your reality check I suggest you do the same as those same 'Average' DDO players are probley not VIP so they would either need to buy Delera's or get a guest pass to get in there anyways. So in Short greetings and salutations.

[HAL]

People who run elite and find it too difficult have options to ramp that down (hard, normal, even casual); people who run elite and find it not challenging enough currently have no option to ramp it up.

No matter how difficult you make Elite, there will be people who still don't find it challenging enough. Until you make it so difficult that only a handful of players enjoy the challenge (until they memorize it or increase their power again). Then they will ask for more challenge.

This is why I think the developers are wasting their time even thinking about an additional difficulty. No MMO has infinitely-increasing challenge. At some point in every MMO the player wins unless they start playing a new character.

[AbyssalMage]

WAI. Next topic please.

Have you consider a lower difficulty?
Quit being so rude.

To the OP:
As you may have (or may not have) learned that not all traps are created equal; just like NPC's.

Delera's was actually the first thing I thought of when you said you "died in a trap." The traps in their take many adventurer's lives. Sad thing is I remember the placement of a few in that chain (because I have died so many times in them) and for some reason once I get near them I forget all about them and wonder through them only to hear a "Ding."

[HAL]

For elite difficulty at level 7, it is best to run with Cannich crafted +5 con, false life +30, +2 con tomes, +20 guild augment hp, pirate vitality +10, aid potion +11, etc for about 300-375 hp at level 7. Elite should at least offer some difficulty to Elite players.


220 damage at level 7 isn't severe. Most people have more HP than 220 at that level.

This thread is full of so much humor!

[eachna_gislin]

No matter how difficult you make Elite, there will be people who still don't find it challenging enough. Until you make it so difficult that only a handful of players enjoy the challenge (until they memorize it or increase their power again). Then they will ask for more challenge.

This is why I think the developers are wasting their time even thinking about an additional difficulty. No MMO has infinitely-increasing challenge. At some point in every MMO the player wins unless they start playing a new character.

Pandering to whiny elitist whales has been bad for the game. You can buy loot for cash in the ASAH. You can solo run and bypass new raids for the first few weeks when the drop rates are high and then never have to look at them again. Every class is self healing. Every kill has cleave-like attacks and insta-kills and ends up playing like every other class. Wizards now have more hit points than barbarians used to have at the same level just a couple years ago. The elitist players still whine they want elite to be harder (now we need Champions, now we need Mythic, now we need Nightmare, *whine* *whine*). They've had their time and it's hasn't worked out.

How about the dev team stop pandering to the whiny elitists and return to the core design values that originally made the game a success?

[Hydian]

Who are these 'average' DDO toons you talk about. Most people i've randomly pug'ed with over various lives know at least some of these basics. There is really no excuse for not having ship buffs it's as easy as saying "May I get a ship ping please?" Most people are ok with it.

I never have ship buffs. Saying that there is no excuse for not having them is like saying that there is no excuse for not having a pocket cleric since everybody can just dual-box. Newer players can't be expected to have a support network in place to help them along.


Anyone can canneth craft. All it takes is some time and dedication. It's not easy or quick to get to the higher level stuff, but if you are going to TR a lot it's well worth the time and investment.

A-yup...something that you can't expect a level 7 character to have.


Again like I told the OP if elite traps are to much for a 'average' DDO character maybe they shouldn't be playing on elite. There is two other difficulty levels to play as a 1st or 2nd lifer wont need as much xp to cap out as a 3rd lifer.

Absolutely agreed on this. Elite should not be for the average or starting player. If a difficulty level is too much for you, there are easier levels to choose from. The XP/minute is probably more efficient at the lower levels anyway if you are struggling at elite.


As for your reality check I suggest you do the same as those same 'Average' DDO players are probley not VIP so they would either need to buy Delera's or get a guest pass to get in there anyways.

No idea what the point is here. You are saying that buying an adventure pack makes you elite? I'm sure that I'm just not understanding.

[Jiirix]

Elite traps are deadly and not only a nuisance that gives +30% XP when disarmed? I want my loot-piñata back!

[Darkmits]

220 damage at level 7 isn't severe. Most people have more HP than 220 at that level.A player with 4hp per level, 18 CON (base+item), +10 false life should have... 4*7 + 4*7 +10 + 25 (heroic toughness feat or whatever) = 91hp. I hope I didn't miss anything. A 12hp per lvl, 24CON, +20 false life +10 Vitality character should have 12*7 + 7*8 + 20 + 10 + 25 = 195hp. I don't doubt that 220hp is feasible at lvl7, but I'd like to see a build that can achieve that (at first life with f2p named items only of lvl6 and below)

I think I hit 220 hp at around Gianthold levels on my bard.

The issue with 220 from the trap is not that it is too deadly; in fact the individual hits are all acceptable for Elite at lvl7. The problem is that it triggered 3 times in 0.5sec.

[bartharok]

I think that a trap on elite should be able to kill most toons. I also think that there should be a wah to survive if youre careful.

[Raithe]

The issue with 220 from the trap is not that it is too deadly; in fact the individual hits are all acceptable for Elite at lvl7. The problem is that it triggered 3 times in 0.5sec.

That is NOT a problem. That WAS a problem with old trap design. They made it so a barbarian could survive no matter what he rolled, and a rogue would die anytime he rolled a 1. It was utterly pathetic.

It boggles my mind where people get the justifications for some of this logic. Every trap in the game should make you roll multiple saves for every split second you remain in the path of the trap. It's the only way to make reflex saves vs. traps be more influential than having lots of hit points.

[Darkmits]

That is NOT a problem. That WAS a problem with old trap design. They made it so a barbarian could survive no matter what he rolled, and a rogue would die anytime he rolled a 1. It was utterly pathetic.

It boggles my mind where people get the justifications for some of this logic. Every trap in the game should make you roll multiple saves for every split second you remain in the path of the trap. It's the only way to make reflex saves vs. traps be more influential than having lots of hit points.Except reflexes (real life reflexes) do not allow you to get out of a trap's area immediately. Under your thinking, any build without Improved Evasion would die before the player had the chance to react to the trap springing.

As for hit points being more important than reflexes, that happens because recovery options are too abundant, too powerful and too cheap. If springing a trap caused a player to spend resources (spellpoints, items, daily charges, whatever) to recover that would possibly make him run out of those when needed at a later fight, then they would think and move slower to avoid that. But now even for a build with no innate healing available it is mathematically better to spring the trap and let the trapper disarm it later, than wait for it to be disarmed first.

People on the forums repeat that the game needs more challenges by introducing insta-death mechanics. That's entirely wrong way to introduce challenge in an RPG. You introduce challenge by engaging the player in strategic thinking and attention to his resources. DDO is becoming a masher game instead of RPG.

[Raithe]

As for hit points being more important than reflexes, that happens because recovery options are too abundant, too powerful and too cheap.

With this, I absolutely agree.



People on the forums repeat that the game needs more challenges by introducing insta-death mechanics. That's entirely wrong way to introduce challenge in an RPG. You introduce challenge by engaging the player in strategic thinking and attention to his resources. DDO is becoming a masher game instead of RPG.

Once again, I agree. Also, DDO has never been an RPG, it's always been a shooter. I'd probably prefer it to be an RPG, but you take what you can get sometimes.

Insta-death mechanics are completely the wrong way to design a game. Perhaps the trap damage should be lowered so they only kill a barbarian that has run out of resources, I can get behind that. That they do X amount of damage via a multiple-saves-per-second algorithm is the only way it should be done in a real-time game like DDO.

[RoberttheBard]

With this, I absolutely agree.



Once again, I agree. Also, DDO has never been an RPG, it's always been a shooter. I'd probably prefer it to be an RPG, but you take what you can get sometimes.

Insta-death mechanics are completely the wrong way to design a game. Perhaps the trap damage should be lowered so they only kill a barbarian that has run out of resources, I can get behind that. That they do X amount of damage via a multiple-saves-per-second algorithm is the only way it should be done in a real-time game like DDO.

Unless you're out in your not gaming free time, crawling through sewers nuking rats with lightning from your fingers, there's more RPG to this game than you want to give it credit for.

[knobaroo]

Am I the only one who thinks it's ok for traps to kill on elite?
Most people know where all the traps are to begin with, no you don't run certain quests without a trapper. I guessing you tried to run up the stairs with the line of force traps solo?
Some quests you just don't do if you cant take care of the traps. That quest was made before they catered to the solo crowd.
Next time bring a trapper or do the multitude of quests that you can get by (like almost every other quest in the game) every trap.
You should be happy you lived!
Anyway just my opinion.
Happy hunting