Devs: so what is going to happen to mortal fear?

[Hobgoblin]

I was reading a thread that got locked - and I didn't see it in there.

What will happen to mortal fear?

The last I got from the community was that it would not work in legendary content.

This is important to me as i have enough pholgs to make a mf weapon, but dont know if it is worth it to do so for only 2 levels.

I am not trying to reopen a closed thread per say and I would rather not have personal attacks go on in it, so could we have cordovan, severlin or steelstar please stop by and stat what they are thinking? Even something like "yes we have a plan, but we cant talk about would be ok"

Hob

[blerkington]

Hi,

There have been a few threads about this already, and it will just keep going until we hear something on this topic.

From what I've seen, there's been a pretty broad consensus that the main effect should not just be switched off for legendary content. There has been quite a difference of opinion about whether or not the HP reduction effect should be changed, and if so, how that could be done. It's been interesting.

Some developer input would be really useful to the discussion. I think the community could provide some useful suggestions about how to make a change, and the anger will only increase the longer this silence continues.

Thanks.

[Hobgoblin]

Hi,

There have been a few threads about this already, and it will just keep going until we hear something on this topic.

From what I've seen, there's been a pretty broad consensus that the main effect should not just be switched off for legendary content. There has been quite a difference of opinion about whether or not the HP reduction effect should be changed, and if so, how that could be done. It's been interesting.

Some developer input would be really useful to the discussion. I think the community could provide some useful suggestions about how to make a change, and the anger will only increase the longer this silence continues.

Thanks.

my point exactly.

at this point i would even prefer "iamthealmightydevandmortalfearwillnowdeal1-3pointsofforcedamage" so i can make plans.

communication is key

[Cordovan]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

[Hobgoblin]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

ty.

[AzureDragonas]

Instead of removing entirely with refund they plan to stick with "working as usual except Legendary content". Monster hp which obviosuly will increase to numbers of 15-30k again would have been walkup for MF builds, at least wont need to make half monsters rednamed to even make challange in legendary difficulty, with this quick decision in opposite if MF had stayed there. I just hope for some suggested minor fixUps on exploited builds and we could have finally end game content where MF/exploits/warlocks/shiradi wont be "best" builds to be.

[blerkington]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

Hi,

Well, it's good to hear some more on this, even though I definitely don't agree with this decision.

What was the reasoning behind this? Why not scale it back in all content instead in the ways suggested by the community, such as not working on orange names, no extra damage being added to helpless enemies, reducing the proc rate, or even changing it to another less powerful damaging effect?

I'd also like to know whether or not TF deconstruction will be added. It only seems fair to let us recycle the materials after all the work some of us put in to acquire them. This is something that is a non issue as far as people who duped materials are concerned, as they presumably already have enough materials to make as many new weapons as they want in view of these changes.

Thanks.

[Systern]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

So you're indirectly removing it from game, instead of just explicitly removing it from game. It's a ML28 effect. Are future players going to raid, build it and then find out it's good for 1/2 a level's content before the old Monty-Haul-DM-Switcheroo happens and "Nope! That doesn't work here."? The players that already built it will end up leaving it in their TR caches for the new content Pure-DPS item that'll replace it. End result, is that it's removed from game.

Granted, I believe it never should have been put into the game in the first place, but leaving it as a newb-trap is a bad solution.

[Ghwyn]

So you're indirectly removing it from game, instead of just explicitly removing it from game. It's a ML28 effect. Are future players going to raid, build it and then find out it's good for 1/2 a level's content before the old Monty-Haul-DM-Switcheroo happens and "Nope! That doesn't work here."? The players that already built it will end up leaving it in their TR caches for the new content Pure-DPS item that'll replace it. End result, is that it's removed from game.

Granted, I believe it never should have been put into the game in the first place, but leaving it as a newb-trap is a bad solution.

Much of the game is a newb trap if you go by that reasoning. D&D and DDO is not a game in which you play without knowing the rules.

[JOTMON]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.



Mortal Fear: On Hit: 8 to 64 Force Damage. In addition, 5% chance to cut non-boss foe's current health in half.
~unfortunately I now read this as ..pointless to craft due to invalidation for future content. go find yourself a sovergn vorpal weapon instead.. or fall back on that old eSOS..


So what about other fear effects from Thunderforged crafting.
T1: Blinding Fear: On Hit: Blinds and Shakens foe for 6 sec, 12 sec cool down.
T2: Paralyzing Fear: On Hit: 5% chance to Paralyze for 5 sec. (No save)
These are fear effects after all....

and.. are there any other weapons or effects that are gong to be rendered useless for cr31+ content.
Would be nice to know before we shift from MF crafting to some other potentially ineffective alternative...

[slarden]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

Caveat Emptor.

Remember this decision when considering buying legendary raid bypass timers for the new raids.

This is how Turbine values player time. 30-40 runs of a raid to make a single item - and the ability you crafted is gone without an attempt to modify the item so it's not over-powered.

[GroundhogDay]

Sad to hear that. Will the name be changed from Mortal Fear to Mild Uneasiness?

[blerkington]

Caveat Emptor.

Remember this decision when considering buying legendary raid bypass timers for the new raids.

This is how Turbine values player time. 30-40 runs of a raid to make a single item - and the ability you crafted is gone without an attempt to modify the item so it's not over-powered.

Hi,

Yes, exactly.

Plenty of discussion about how MF could be toned down, apparently none of it taken on board. No respect for the effort put into making these items. No avenue for people who did the work to get their materials back.

It reminds me of chest rerolls in ToEE, with drop rates for named items so low the company was basically taking players' money. Or putting timer bypasses on sale just before an update where they won't work in new content, without even making a change to the product description first.

'Powered by our fans' seems less accurate with each passing year. What you are really doing is teaching people to distrust and dislike your company. And with a little forethought and effort it could all be avoided.

Thanks.

[Qhualor]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

anything else that wont work in Legendary content? I don't have any TF weapons, but I was planning on making some with MF for my melees until now. instead ill eventually put something else for a T3.. I think a better solution on MF procs and the damage it produces would have been a better decision because at least they would still be worth crafting across all content. had I made TF weapons with MF, I would be in these threads ranting about it, but I still don't agree with this decision.

[IronClan]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

Why not just reduce it's effectiveness in new content? Why is the present Dev team so set on big chunky binary design choices? On or off, black or white, no shades of grey, no nuances either/or is bad game design.

20% DS for archiving 18th level this is like 16% more than any other Dev EVER handed out in one single chunk (well probably go away nit pickers I'm not going to canvas the wiki to make sure my number is right)
Massive heal amp and hp in barb cores like a dump truck was backed up.
Turning MF off like a light switch when you enter level 31 content...
Massive Legendary Feats with +20% to DC's

Just do this: "MF in Legendary is no longer boosted by helpless damage boosts"

Problem solved, elegantly and without invalidating it completely.

"MF in Legendary only does 30% of total health and no longer takes helpless damage boosts" still useable though a massive nerf...

"MF is too powerful? *Flicks a switch* Too bad, so sad now it's garbage."

On the one hand we got a Producer (for more than a cup of coffee) who is open and accessible and even PM's players, on the other hand he seems to think D&D is about 20% chunks and turning stuff off instead of using more subtle balancing.

How much of this is Sev, and how much is upper managers saying "MF is OP? Okay just turn that **** off then we don't have time to fool with that system to make it work in a more balanced way".

Please guys consider actually re-balancing TF affixes as many have suggested since the poorly designed system was introduced. Especially if the rumor that Epic Green Steel wont have weapons is true.

[IronClan]

'Powered by our fans' seems less accurate with each passing year. What you are really doing is teaching people to distrust and dislike your company. And with a little forethought and effort it could all be avoided.

Thanks.

Agreed, I'm not a tin foil hat guy, but Turbine is rapidly appearing more and more like a money grab bait and switch merchant... I wonder if saying that is against the rules and gets me a infraction?

Sorry guys actions speak louder than words, +20LR go on sale after a big nerf? Legendary timer bypass announcement after a store sale on timers? Invalidating long and grindy gear choices and making them only useful for 2 levels? It has NOT been a good month for you guys.

Whats next?

Actions speak louder than words doesn't matter if Severlin and Varg and Steel don't want to do anything like and aren't motivated by marketing or anything; it only matters that it appears to be the case.

The appearance of impropriety is all that matters.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Excellent decision Devs. This de facto removes MF from the game and the highly suspect methods used to obtain many of these weapons. Now quests no longer need to be designed around this effect. Good for the game overall and a needed sacrifice from the game population.

[IronClan]

I think you guys need to offer people an exchange: put a turn in in the barter UI at the forge: 30 phlogs for any MF weapon crunched

The dupers get nothing from this as they will almost certainly have many more phlogs laying around, this benefits people who made MF weapons the hard way and who are not okay with them being a two level temporary weapon...

Then tweak the whole TF crafting system to be better, including a new version of MF that is more balanced.

[Shoemaker]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

The half-health proc portion will be warded by Legendary ward, I get that and agree with that decision. Would it be reasonable to expect that in the process of that the force damage part will be boosted a fair amount to compensate for some of that?

[blerkington]

Excellent decision Devs. This de facto removes MF from the game and the highly suspect methods used to obtain many of these weapons. Now quests no longer need to be designed around this effect. Good for the game overall and a needed sacrifice from the game population.

Hi,

So exactly how many weapons were made through 'suspect methods'? I think you're just taking a swing here, based on what you think you know, while ignoring what this means for people who acquired the weapons legitimately. I suppose that's easy when you did none of the work and have nothing to lose yourself.

There are plenty of other instakill and incap effects that work on enemies which are vulnerable to mortal fear. The idea that quests had to be designed around this effect is very naive. Rednamed enemies were becoming numerous in raids well before MF was even an idea. And this change will just shift the emphasis to these other methods.

Thanks.

[Basura_Grande]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

This was a bad decision.

[Thalone]

Answer: This went down the toilet at Turbine HQ.

Question: What is my time, Alex?

[Mindos]

Mortal Fear: On Hit: 8 to 64 Force Damage. In addition, 5% chance to cut non-boss foe's current health in half.
~unfortunately I now read this as ..pointless to craft due to invalidation for future content. go find yourself a sovergn vorpal weapon instead.. or fall back on that old eSOS..


So what about other fear effects from Thunderforged crafting.
T1: Blinding Fear: On Hit: Blinds and Shakens foe for 6 sec, 12 sec cool down.

Blinding Fear has been and always was the original newbie trap. It just doesnt work, doesnt work right, doesn't work consistently, etc. It says no save, but it...well all this was said, even said before TF weapons came out and nothing.

[Kwyjibo]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.
One of the worst decisions, E V E R...Once again Turbine displays how little they think of the time effort their customers put in to the game. For shame....:mad:

[Marshal_Lannes]

Hi,

So exactly how many weapons were made through 'suspect methods'? I think you're just taking a swing here, based on what you think you know, while ignoring what this means for people who acquired the weapons legitimately. I suppose that's easy when you did none of the work and have nothing to lose yourself.

There are plenty of other instakill and incap effects that work on enemies which are vulnerable to mortal fear. The idea that quests had to be designed around this effect is very naive. Rednamed enemies were becoming numerous in raids well before MF was even an idea. And this change will just shift the emphasis to these other methods.

Thanks.

Do you actually play the game or just cherry pick on the forums? The Devs obviously disagree with you or they would not have made this change. You don't think quests had to be made around these suspect weapons? The latest raid had to be designed with ALL red named bosses!! LOL. In any event, I am glad some sanity is being restored to this AD&D setting and anything that curbs character power is for the ultimate benefit of the whole community, even if you don't recognize it yet.

[losian2]

Caveat Emptor.

Remember this decision when considering buying legendary raid bypass timers for the new raids.

This is how Turbine values player time. 30-40 runs of a raid to make a single item - and the ability you crafted is gone without an attempt to modify the item so it's not over-powered.

This is the kind of exaggerating nonsense that makes these forums so silly.

The ability is relatively unchanged.

Let me rephrase what you said for you to be more accurate..

"30-40 runs of a raid to make a single item - which you obviously realize is incredibly powerful in its current iteration and no content can reasonably be designed without specifically accounting for it one way or another"

They can either nerf it completely, or leave it mostly as is yet adjust it for future content; but let's be honest, you knew it was coming. Why else would EVERYONE go through so much trouble for it?

Seriously guys.. stuff that is "THAT GOOD", and you know what I mean, often will need to be adjusted. How do you even design content with an item like that floating around? Make almost every mob immune to it? Do you not even have quests have trash mobs anymore? I mean, at that point, why bother? Wouldn't that make it "useless" in exactly the same way everyone is complaining?

I know everyone likes powerful items, but when something is powerful in a particular way, and again it's pretty obvious when it is.. this has happened time and time again for insta-kills, major HP reducers, etc., then you should expect it.

tl;dr stop putting all your eggs in one basket and then complaining when the basket is adjusted when you knew it was coming

[Holymunchkin]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

Am feelin a bit offended by this. Will explain why...

The best gear we can get from an old raid should help us get the new gear. This is part of the "mmo rat race."

Many people have taken the time over the past 2 years to grind (and I REALLY mean that term) out a thunderforged mortal fear weapon. The proposed removal of the "vorpal" effect removes the usefulness of that proc in the new content. Why did I take the time to grind it out if it was going to be removed? I want the new gear too. You misled players on a 40+ hour, month long journey for a weapon made sub-optimal arbitrarily. Many in the community agree that the proc is overpowered (almost universally!!!). When the proc was released (after the nerfing of Nightmare) many cried foul. These "vorpal" effects need to stop. If the community sees another one, it will break some "came backs" so to speak.

That being said---the Mortal Fear proc still needs to do something, to warrant the grind that was made for it. Please consider redesigning it: do not play games with our grind fests, and optimal gearing decisions. It feels rude being misled. It's not that the proc will be on par with other effects. It's that it will be suboptimal. When you play with mortal fear, you are addressing the power-gaming community.

[Holymunchkin]

Caveat Emptor.

Remember this decision when considering buying legendary raid bypass timers for the new raids.

This is how Turbine values player time. 30-40 runs of a raid to make a single item - and the ability you crafted is gone without an attempt to modify the item so it's not over-powered.

+1

We should make a sig of this.

[BoBoDaClown]

Ridiculous.

I have been running the raid when I can since it came out. As I am an early morning player, that is rarely. I am on 29 phlogs.

It seems such a waste of effort (and yes some of it was fun - but sometimes it was an effort if I didn't particularly feel like running the raid at that point) for something that will only be useful for 2 levels.

Why can't a regular nerf be done instead.

[Dragavon]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

This is a bad decision. Reduce it, but let it work everywhere.

[blerkington]

Do you actually play the game or just cherry pick on the forums? The Devs obviously disagree with you or they would not have made this change. You don't think quests had to be made around these suspect weapons? The latest raid had to be designed with ALL red named bosses!! LOL. In any event, I am glad some sanity is being restored to this AD&D setting and anything that curbs character power is for the ultimate benefit of the whole community, even if you don't recognize it yet.

Hi,

I do play the game, quite a lot in fact. Though in the face of these sorts of developer decisions I am really starting to ask myself why. Even as someone who accepts that nerfs are sometimes needed, and that our current loot will inevitably be superseded, I can't agree with the approach I'm seeing now.

I would have been perfectly happy to play those raids just as much for less powerful loot, and I would have cheerfully signed up for the next grind too, for something incrementally better because that's the nature of the beast. But I very much resent what is happening instead.

Mortal fear was flagged from before its release as being very powerful, arguably too powerful. But despite that it got into the game in its current form and stayed there for 18 months or so. That's around ten times as long as you've been playing the game. Players even posted on the forums asking for a confirmation that the effect was going to remain the way it was before committing to the huge grind required to make the weapons. In reply, we got silence from the developers.

These facts don't sit well with your naive explanation that someone finally realised that the effect is overpowered and only now got around to changing it. It was that way because it encouraged people to purchase that content and play it. It was something for us to do, to make us stay, in a game which is struggling to keep its veteran players engaged due to very slow release of content.

The fact that we are getting this change now, very belatedly, has everything to do with quest and loot design for upcoming content and the desire to sell it to us/engage us with it, and little if nothing to do with a concern for game balance. As others have pointed out, there are also a huge number of actual long-term exploits left in the game which are known, haven't been addressed, and show no sign of being addressed. Mortal fear could be left as it is, or nerfed in the very sensible ways that I and other people have suggested, and it wouldn't even compare to the power afforded by known exploit builds.

I don't think quests have been designed around this weapon effect. If you can cite even one and prove your point, you go right ahead. Like I said in my last post, red named enemies started to appear in raids well before the introduction of mortal fear because they have immunities to many instakill and incap effects, so that they can be non trivial obstacles whether mortal fear exists in the game or not.

What your shallow understanding of this issue completely fails to address is that there are a host of other abilities and spells which take care of orange named and below monsters very easily apart from mortal fear. With the level of power we have now, anything that is meant to survive for more than a couple of seconds pretty much has to be red named. The recent nerf pass did nothing to change that at all.

Much like the game itself, you also really need to get your position straight on the issue of character power. On the one hand, you think mortal fear is overpowered. On the other hand, you have advocated for mob fortitude saves to be lowered to 50 in EE endgame content so even truly dreadful wizards can hit those mobs with a FoD and have it land 95% of the time. When you come to a logically consistent stance on the issue of character power please be sure to let us all know. Just like when the game decides trash monsters are meant to be a real obstacle which can't be taken out so easily, or things we can effortlessly destroy, hopefully the developers will let us know which one they want too.

Thanks.

[AzureDragonas]

I think it's bad decision to even keep effect alive, no matter how you look there is no other effect in game similiar to it on power creep, effect is just broken itself even it's passive part is broken.


*Passive
8d8 force damage on hit makes avarage 32 force damage on each hit when there are technicly no monsters in game except helmed horrors maybe who have resistance to it.
- lit2 2% ~600 electricity = 12 on hit
- sovereign vorpal 5% ~300 untyped = 15 on hit
...

So passive alone does more than any other effect in comparison even other T3 TF effects triggers only on vorpal and criticals

Crippling Flames: On Crit: 135 to 325 Fire Damage. On Hit: 5% chance to apply 2 Negative Levels.
~230 fire damage on crits which score depends on weapon crit range, not including near half prob monsters have either resistance or imunity to this
3rd Degree Burns: On Vorpal: 85 to 195 Fire Damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds, and adds 1-5 stacks of Vulnerability.
- 5% ~275 fire= 13 on hit FIRE damage which again most mobs either imunity or resistance


And this in any case in terms of extra dps on hits passive which is obviously is broken already will work in legendary.

*Active 5% hp remove.
Is it so hard to understand how this effect is broken? I mean we all saw mob HP scaling more and more couse of lvl increase giants in breaking ranks having 20-25k hp already and on first trigger effect alone can remove 12.5k avarage hp on those monsters.

As i mentioned legendary 31+ CR dungeons will have monsters who have 15-40K hp mostly (orthons and other tanky devils), and this effect is cancer to content we had before for years now, which leaded to DoJ 80% monsters being rednamed. Any quest where fight will be happening can be cleared with MF too fast, as mentioned dual MF weapons can trigger effect almost each 2-3 secs just by attack number and speed alone, and there are builds who can use even more attacks on more targets at same time, what devs are doing is preventing new legendary content being zerged by MF users who would clear dungeon fast anyway becouse HP is irrelevent only rednamed and bosses can hold group making quest itself longer than couple minutes if no doors dialogue etc needed.

Maybe fixing would be better for entire content range but to balance 2 broken effects if there was suggestion to make
8d8 force damage on crits or 16d8 on crits
5% to reduce hp in half let's say caps at 5k with fortitude save 40-50 resulting in ~500 untyped damage.

You won't be satisfied anyway, for a simple reason you got used to effect which does all work for you so much you can't let it go, same was with vorpal, nightmares, neg lvls any of these what makes end game content easy to play (killing monsters instantly etc) you want that, what you seek is being gods in game being able to solo all end content with an excuse that you worked hard to get those (godly items) and they should stay the same. Same as with any other effect before which leaded to point where monsters were dying too fast giving no challange at all. Devs tryed to work arround without changing effect itself which resulted to:

HP - increase irrelevent
Monster numbers - For MF irrelevent any other have issues
Rednamed - was best solution but it killed option for any caster to be usefull at all
Champions - dyes too fast to MF users other who have no cc etc, suffered for this (deathwards etc doenst work for MF)

This MF cancer was even buffed to a point of nonsense even further by helpless damage, if those testing kobolds in testing Dojo in lamania are having 500k hp and getting hits from MF for 640k+ on first attacks after being helpless it shows how stupid and broken effect itself is.

Also there was mentioning before other games had similiar ideas effects realized like Diablo, and devs decided without talking to comunity remove effect entirely for same reason. BROKEN. Devs at least discuss and try find work arround on this.

As numbers shows Force damage alone gives more dps on hit than any other effect just numbers are not so impressive as killing monster below 3000 hp or doing 300 damage otherwise, stop looking at big numbers and see avarage numbers how game really work.

[Morroiel]

Please guys consider actually re-balancing TF affixes as many have suggested since the poorly designed system was introduced. Especially if the rumor that Epic Green Steel wont have weapons is true.

This isn't 100% confirmed but based on the recent interview with sev it seems that epic green steel will have weapons. He mentioned that epic green steel / epic shroud / level 30 was pushed back due to thunderforged coming out and not wanting to invalidate it and then also mentioned that sentient weapons will be pushed back to 2016 or 2017 so as not to invalidate the new epic green steel system. I don't see how an epic green steel system w/o weapons could be invalidated by sentient weapons so i draw the conclusion that epic green steel will indeed include weapons.

Again this isn't 100% confirmed but follows from simple logic based on what sev has explicitly stated on multiple occasions.

[dunklezhan]

Much of the game is a newb trap if you go by that reasoning. D&D and DDO is not a game in which you play without knowing the rules.

Things I have learned since being a MMO newb #23: never grind your face off for anything if you're the sort of person who resents having their toys arbitrarily taking away later, because its usually edge cases that suffer. So don't be an edge case if you want consistency. The price you pay for getting to and staying on the bleeding edge is that sometimes the experience is very flaky. You're like a prototype tesla: freakin' awesome most of the time but every so often something explodes and ruins your day.

I do have a fair bit of sympathy for the argument that if the effect is only available on ML28 gear, the impression given is that this is gear you can expect to use in legendary content. Being able to use something for a level or less is.... pointless. It means you work and work and work to get something that is only any use to you running content you presumably already ran and succeeded at.

At the very least get the tooltip updated to reflect the limitation so people don't have to have read a dev post on the forums to know.

[GroundhogDay]

Do you actually play the game or just cherry pick on the forums? The Devs obviously disagree with you or they would not have made this change. You don't think quests had to be made around these suspect weapons? The latest raid had to be designed with ALL red named bosses!! LOL. In any event, I am glad some sanity is being restored to this AD&D setting and anything that curbs character power is for the ultimate benefit of the whole community, even if you don't recognize it yet.

I feel like your constant accusation of "suspect weapons" is a bait for a flame, same as for that other one that considers all melees to be cheaters.

You don't like melees, that much is clear, can you please steer away from treads such as this and take your disruptive attitude with you, you don't like melees, then why on earth do you feel compelled to insult every melee in every tread?

Btw and fyi i reported you for this.

[GroundhogDay]

You won't be satisfied anyway, for a simple reason you got used to effect which does all work for you so much you can't let it go, same was with vorpal, nightmares, neg lvls any of these what makes end game content easy to play (killing monsters instantly etc) you want that, what you seek is being gods in game being able to solo all end content with an excuse that you worked hard to get those (godly items) and they should stay the same. Same as with any other effect before which leaded to point where monsters were dying too fast giving no challange at all.

...snip...

This MF cancer was even buffed to a point of nonsense even further by helpless damage

Again, as with that other one guy, i reported you to the mods for your continuous disrupting behaviour, STOP INSULTING PLAYERS.

You hate melees, ok we get it, can we have a tread where you don't call us cheaters or wannabe gods? Also i take offence when you call something garbage or cancer.

[Morroiel]

Even though I despise mortal fear and view it as one of the most absurd additions to the game ever, I am disappointed profoundly by how you guys handled this.

Thunderforged is a grind - a MASSIVE GRIND (the only thing in comparison to it would be MoD due to low drop rates).

Many of these items were obtained by players using real money to purchase raid bypass timers. Many of these items were obtained by non vip players spending real money to purchase the pack to run.

I don't know how you should have handled this besides the obvious (don't include it to start). This isn't ethical nor is it economically responsible. I certainly am questioning buying legendary timers for epic shroud now, whereas before I was planning on buying a stack of 20 or so to start.

In the last few months a timeline has developed:

1) Duping Extravaganza Ends
2) Holy Swording of Non-caster classes begins (super broken, obviously so from a mathematical point of view) -> encourages players to buy hearts of woods to lr/tr/itr into new fotm builds
2.5) Armor Up Happens in conjunction
3) MoD release (super low drop rate - only hope of getting an item is by 20 completion list) -> encourages players to buy raid bypass timers
4) Warlock Release (super broken at release both in terms of power and actual abilities being bugged) -> encourages players to buy new fun looking class
5) DOJ release (all red names, no shrines) -> encourages casters to tr into warlocks
6) Nerf Patch Hits (warlocks severely nerfed {accidentally nerfed numerically harder than intended see known issues list for details}, none of the bugs associated with warlock fixed, crit profile nerfed, prr/mrr nerfed) -> encourages players to buy +20 hearts of wood to change builds (only provides 2 +5s per account), no longer as big of an incentive to buy warlocks
7) DDO Store Sale of +20 hearts of wood
8) Announcement of Mortal Fear Nerf
9) Raid bypass timer sale
10) Raid Bypass timers invalidated in future updates
11) Mortal Fear Confirmed to be nerfed

I'm sure I've missed some things (and the specific order might be a little out of order in the 8-11 numbers due to announcements being so close together).

Consistently turbine has shown itself to use a used cars salesman approach to marketing: selling shoddy products as though they are the best of the best. (This isn't directed @ you devs as I think you probably don't have much control over these decisions.)

E.g. Warlock still contains MANY bugs (a vast majority of which aren't in the known issues list despite being mentioned by players on a number of occasions.

[noinfo]

I think it's bad decision to even keep effect alive, no matter how you look there is no other effect in game similiar to it on power creep, effect is just broken itself even it's passive part is broken.


*Passive
8d8 force damage on hit makes avarage 32 force damage on each hit when there are technicly no monsters in game except helmed horrors maybe who have resistance to it.
- lit2 2% ~600 electricity = 12 on hit
- sovereign vorpal 5% ~300 untyped = 15 on hit
...

So passive alone does more than any other effect in comparison even other T3 TF effects triggers only on vorpal and criticals

Crippling Flames: On Crit: 135 to 325 Fire Damage. On Hit: 5% chance to apply 2 Negative Levels.
~230 fire damage on crits which score depends on weapon crit range, not including near half prob monsters have either resistance or imunity to this
3rd Degree Burns: On Vorpal: 85 to 195 Fire Damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds, and adds 1-5 stacks of Vulnerability.
- 5% ~275 fire= 13 on hit FIRE damage which again most mobs either imunity or resistance


And this in any case in terms of extra dps on hits passive which is obviously is broken already will work in legendary.

*Active 5% hp remove.
Is it so hard to understand how this effect is broken? I mean we all saw mob HP scaling more and more couse of lvl increase giants in breaking ranks having 20-25k hp already and on first trigger effect alone can remove 12.5k avarage hp on those monsters.

As i mentioned legendary 31+ CR dungeons will have monsters who have 15-40K hp mostly (orthons and other tanky devils), and this effect is cancer to content we had before for years now, which leaded to DoJ 80% monsters being rednamed. Any quest where fight will be happening can be cleared with MF too fast, as mentioned dual MF weapons can trigger effect almost each 2-3 secs just by attack number and speed alone, and there are builds who can use even more attacks on more targets at same time, what devs are doing is preventing new legendary content being zerged by MF users who would clear dungeon fast anyway becouse HP is irrelevent only rednamed and bosses can hold group making quest itself longer than couple minutes if no doors dialogue etc needed.

Maybe fixing would be better for entire content range but to balance 2 broken effects if there was suggestion to make
8d8 force damage on crits or 16d8 on crits
5% to reduce hp in half let's say caps at 5k with fortitude save 40-50 resulting in ~500 untyped damage.

You won't be satisfied anyway, for a simple reason you got used to effect which does all work for you so much you can't let it go, same was with vorpal, nightmares, neg lvls any of these what makes end game content easy to play (killing monsters instantly etc) you want that, what you seek is being gods in game being able to solo all end content with an excuse that you worked hard to get those (godly items) and they should stay the same. Same as with any other effect before which leaded to point where monsters were dying too fast giving no challange at all. Devs tryed to work arround without changing effect itself which resulted to:

HP - increase irrelevent
Monster numbers - For MF irrelevent any other have issues
Rednamed - was best solution but it killed option for any caster to be usefull at all
Champions - dyes too fast to MF users other who have no cc etc, suffered for this (deathwards etc doenst work for MF)

This MF cancer was even buffed to a point of nonsense even further by helpless damage, if those testing kobolds in testing Dojo in lamania are having 500k hp and getting hits from MF for 640k+ on first attacks after being helpless it shows how stupid and broken effect itself is.

Also there was mentioning before other games had similiar ideas effects realized like Diablo, and devs decided without talking to comunity remove effect entirely for same reason. BROKEN. Devs at least discuss and try find work arround on this.

As numbers shows Force damage alone gives more dps on hit than any other effect just numbers are not so impressive as killing monster below 3000 hp or doing 300 damage otherwise, stop looking at big numbers and see avarage numbers how game really work.

Are you really comparing a Level 28 item with a level 12? Ok if mobs hp only progressed relative to the level.
The nerf to vorpal was really poor in thought, and realistically no one ever used them since. 20 hits to auto kill a mob? But ok this is a random loot effect so let this one go. Especially an effect blocked by any deathblock or ward. But a poorly nerfed version of what it should be comparing a raid level weapon to an effect that most people no longer care about.

Crippling Flames was stillborn. Nerf to neg levels has made it a useless effect, otherwise it should have been similar to what the sword Nightmare was like originally and without the massive neg level regen.

Champions die too fast due to mortal fear? If you think non orange named mobs are dying fast because of mortal fear you need to readdress your build because I still have some toons without it and the only difference I take note of is on orange named. I am sure that I score a lucky hit from time to time that makes the mobs die fast but in general not noticeable vs most trash.

Here is a thought, all of your opinion seems to be based on second or third hand information, you saw this happen and heard of this, I have seen numbers with...

Go and grind one, then try it and then come back and let me know how OP it feels. I will state though as I have a few of these weapons that I tend to agree that they could be brought back a bit on the stacking helpless side of things.


***Edit just to be clear, I would not have ground out the raid without mortal fear being there. The others really would not have been worth my time. The mirror puzzles are just repetitive and enough to keep me from fully enjoying it if I have to help do them.

[AzureDragonas]

Again, as with that other one guy, i reported you to the mods for your continuous disrupting behaviour, STOP INSULTING PLAYERS.

You hate melees, ok we get it, can we have a tread where you don't call us cheaters or wannabe gods? Also i take offence when you call something garbage or cancer.

Seems more like you can't understand a word again and telling nonsense, what i told was:

* Right now best "decent DPS" builds in game somehow are: Exploits and MF users for same reason that they use either broken mechanics or benefit from broken effects like MF which is a cancer for any other building options,
I love to make melee dps but when i make good melee DPS and most important decent according to devs which they keep "balancing" and i am still behind in terms on kill count/zerging/damage/clearing speed/in some cases even DPS to exploits it natural to demand to FIX stuff which are breaking this game and limiting options to either
* Play fair builds which WAI - but most of time be left behind
* Play exploited builds, use broken mechanics to benefit from game issues.

The reason i address issues is to make game experience better where AGAIN best DPS builds are not Attack speed glass cannons which triggers MF and clears dungeons in minutes, neither exploits who outperform any "decent" builds left behind in dusts.

And from previous threads we all know your reading issues where you look for certain keywords you keep reporting, so try read again pls i used word Cancer to describe MF itself as root of issue which was 1 of main reasons why suddenly number of red named monsters, hp increase, bigger group of monsters and champs appeared and i dont see even reason why calling effect cancer who is root of many issues in game is exactly insulting you.

[AzureDragonas]

Are you really comparing a Level 28 item with a level 12? Ok if mobs hp only progressed relative to the level.
The nerf to vorpal was really poor in thought, and realistically no one ever used them since. 20 hits to auto kill a mob? But ok this is a random loot effect so let this one go. Especially an effect blocked by any deathblock or ward. But a poorly nerfed version of what it should be comparing a raid level weapon to an effect that most people no longer care about.

Crippling Flames was stillborn. Nerf to neg levels has made it a useless effect, otherwise it should have been similar to what the sword Nightmare was like originally and without the massive neg level regen.

Champions die too fast due to mortal fear? If you think non orange named mobs are dying fast because of mortal fear you need to readdress your build because I still have some toons without it and the only difference I take note of is on orange named. I am sure that I score a lucky hit from time to time that makes the mobs die fast but in general not noticeable vs most trash.

Here is a thought, all of your opinion seems to be based on second or third hand information, you saw this happen and heard of this, I have seen numbers with...

Go and grind one, then try it and then come back and let me know how OP it feels. I will state though as I have a few of these weapons that I tend to agree that they could be brought back a bit on the stacking helpless side of things.


***Edit just to be clear, I would not have ground out the raid without mortal fear being there. The others really would not have been worth my time. The mirror puzzles are just repetitive and enough to keep me from fully enjoying it if I have to help do them.

1.st there is lamania i dont need even make broken effect in real game to test how broken it is thx for taking this to consideration. I made MF weapons in lamania and tested them in both dojo on 500k kobolds as i told doing 640k damage on helpless in first hits according to you is probably normal behavior and tested on shuriken build in quests making ToEE EE as walkup.
2.nd even effects like greater sunburst which have 2% trigger chance are triggering quite offen (easy to notice couse of animation), if you don't notice effect which have 2.5 more chance to trigger it's your issue, maybe making red numbers on it would give u a hint how offen it's really triggering.

[GroundhogDay]

I take offense in your usage of certain words as a bait to start a flame. Saying you don't like something? Ok. Saying that is a cancer or only used by exploiters/cheaters? Not ok. Insulting me saying that i cannot read or that i have some kind of disability? Extremely not ok.

Say what you want man, just learn to use the right words. You're not alone. And stop being so hellbent on insulting people for the sake of insulting.

[noinfo]

1.st there is lamania i dont need even make broken effect in real game to test how broken it is thx for taking this to consideration. I made MF weapons in lamania and tested them in both dojo on 500k kobolds as i told doing 640k damage on helpless in first hits according to you is probably normal behavior and tested on shuriken build in quests making ToEE EE as walkup.
2.nd even effects like greater sunburst which have 2% trigger chance are triggering quite offen (easy to notice couse of animation), if you don't notice effect which have 2.5 more chance to trigger it's your issue, maybe making red numbers on it would give u a hint how offen it's really triggering.

No, a few seconds looking at numbers in the dojo is the same at all. I look forward to your video of you soloing TOEE with your great numbers next time Lamania Opens.

No I am not noticing it because unless it proc's in the first couple of hits, it makes little difference to the time I kill it outside of oranged named.

I honestly have no issue with said shuriken builds, not seeing a great many of them around at the moment though, they want rate of fire for a proc, no worries, I will be happily cleaving away and mobs will be dying fast, not from mortal fear but by dps. If it goes off in the first 1 or 2 you notice it and it will bring the death of mobs down by a small margin, against oranged named mobs its noticeable.

I am all for alternative ways to kill mobs rather than just raw dps or big slow attacks. The fact that my heavy hitters don't feel at a loss to shuriken builds should say something.

So as you put it you consider it a cakewalk just because of Mortal Fear, I look forward to your video solo of EE TOEE. (Just to be clear I understand that people do solo this well. however the claim here was that MF made it easy to solo for the Quoted which I dispute)

[BigErkyKid]

Hi,

...
Mortal fear was flagged from before its release as being very powerful, arguably too powerful. But despite that it got into the game in its current form and stayed there for 18 months or so. That's around ten times as long as you've been playing the game. Players even posted on the forums asking for a confirmation that the effect was going to remain the way it was before committing to the huge grind required to make the weapons. In reply, we got silence from the developers.

These facts don't sit well with your naive explanation that someone finally realised that the effect is overpowered and only now got around to changing it. It was that way because it encouraged people to purchase that content and play it. It was something for us to do, to make us stay, in a game which is struggling to keep its veteran players engaged due to very slow release of content.

The fact that we are getting this change now, very belatedly, has everything to do with quest and loot design for upcoming content and the desire to sell it to us/engage us with it, and little if nothing to do with a concern for game balance. As others have pointed out, there are also a huge number of actual long-term exploits left in the game which are known, haven't been addressed, and show no sign of being addressed. Mortal fear could be left as it is, or nerfed in the very sensible ways that I and other people have suggested, and it wouldn't even compare to the power afforded by known exploit builds. .


Caveat Emptor.

Remember this decision when considering buying legendary raid bypass timers for the new raids.

This is how Turbine values player time. 30-40 runs of a raid to make a single item - and the ability you crafted is gone without an attempt to modify the item so it's not over-powered.

This.

I have ZERO faith in the Turbine-DDO crew as a whole. I don't know who is making the "evil" decisions, but quite frankly there are enough of them that I would NOT recommend anyone that they let their teenage kids play this game. Some reasons:

1. Astral shards:
- a whole system designed ONLY to make you forget that you are using real money when you buy for things. The only reason to have them is deception of the consumer.

2. Chest rerolls:
- it is strictly p2w. The fact that you don't win for sure and that you have limited re rolls does not change the overall fact in the least.

3. Daily rolls:
- It is a pure gambling stand in a game that is not marketed as an online casino. I know of several people (even adults) who have put dozens of dollars into it. Those kind of games are lose only for the players and are strictly designed to milk you.

4. P2skip (Hearts of oak, selling respecs, Otto stones)
- The game is plagued by mechanics that gate rewards with time sinks. The reason why there is a time sink in front of it is to be able to sell the store p2skip option. Freemium systems were sold as an innocent try before you buy and have turned into schemes to milk addiction and in less extreme cases non rational decisions. When you are at the end fight of a tough quest dead, and you really just have one tick left to kill the boss, the pay 2 bucks to advance button becomes amazingly tempting. Even well educated rational individuals fall for those tricks, as my colleagues focused in behavioral research have told me a million times.

5. P4power (bladeforged, warlocks, tomes)
- Frequently they gate the most powerful classes behind purchases. The same goes for character power. You can again grind, but the more income / less free time you have, the more it seems stupid it seems to spend that time repeating a million times ToEE for the chance of a tome. The fact that they sell the tome in the store proves that the grind is not innocent. While playing, people are less rational in their choices. Many of us have dropped in one silly such decision in DDO more money than a new cool game would cost. This is calculated, Zynga style.

6. Bait and switch
- Warlock much? Or perhaps people grinding MF weapons? I bet a lot were using dupped mats, but also some people felt the pressure to keep up and bought timers. This also links to what Berkington said regarding them nerfing abilities and items in order to sell new content. Obviously MF is a strict case of this. Offering bypassers at discount in the store and THEN nerfing them to uselessness is pure stupidity. I doubt that was a meditated choice by turbine, if it was, wow you do think very lowly of us players.

So no, I don't trust Turbine (I don't WHO exactly is making those calls within Turbine, that's not to say I don't trust Steelstar personally, or any other individual dev). I don't think anyone should trust turbine. They have shown us, beyond any reasonable doubt, that they are willing to engage in the dirtiest tricks of freemium. So think carefully before making a purchase IG. Postpone it a couple days, see how you feel then. Put things in context. Try as hard as you can to break from the framing traps they lay out for us constantly in the game. Then enjoy the game for its unique actual gameplay, not the casino bits of it.

[blerkington]

No I am not noticing it because unless it proc's in the first couple of hits, it makes little difference to the time I kill it outside of oranged named.

Hi,

Good point.

I think some of the loudest howls to nerf mortal fear are coming from people who have no concept of how quickly a well built, geared and played melee or ranged build destroys trash monsters even in EE endgame content nor of how the effect works on average rather than in the best case scenario. There also seem to be little concept of comparing the power of mortal fear to other powerful abilities in game with short cooldowns which can be used at will rather than occurring by chance.

While I don't think the opportunity to discuss this issue should be restricted, I do think people who do not actually understand how the effect works as evidenced by their contributions and/or people who have little to no direct experience of using these weapons in game, should take a moment to think about those shortcomings before getting too opinionated on this topic. Or at the very least be prepared to modify their opinions.

The fact that mortal fear kills a 500k HP test monster on Lammania too quickly for some people's liking is about the least compelling argument I have ever heard for a nerf. It's just comically bad; if the developers changed the test kobold's HP to 1 million overnight, would that make mortal fear twice as powerful as it is today? If the kobold had only 5k HP, would mortal fear suddenly be a non-issue? Obviously not, both ways.

I've stated my support for a sensible nerf to MF, and I respect the informed and sensibly argued opinions of people who think differently to me, because I think reasoned discussion between various parties might lead us to a an outcome that will make most of us happy. But some of the stuff being trotted out as 'evidence' of mortal fear being far too OP is just nonsense. The 500k HP kobold died too quickly, oh my god, the game is broken and the sky really is falling.

Thanks.

[AzureDragonas]

Hi,

Good point.

I think some of the loudest howls to nerf mortal fear are coming from people who have no concept of how quickly a well built, geared and played melee or ranged build destroys trash monsters even in EE endgame content nor of how the effect works on average rather than in the best case scenario. There also seem to be little concept of comparing the power of mortal fear to other powerful abilities in game with short cooldowns which can be used at will rather than occurring by chance.

While I don't think the opportunity to discuss this issue should be restricted, I do think people who do not actually understand how the effect works as evidenced by their contributions and/or people who have little to no direct experience of using the weapon in game, should take a moment to think about those shortcomings before getting too opinionated on this topic. Or at the very least be prepared to modify their opinions.

The fact that mortal fear kills a 500k HP test monster on Lammania too quickly for some people's liking is about the least compelling argument I have ever heard for a nerf. It's just comically bad; if the developers changed the test kobold's HP to 1 million overnight, would that make mortal fear twice as powerful as it is today? If the kobold had only 5k HP, would mortal fear suddenly be a non-issue? Obviously not, both ways.

I've stated my support for a sensible nerf to MF, and I respect the informed and sensibly argued opinions of people who think differently to me, because I think reasoned discussion between various parties might lead us to a an outcome that will make most of us happy. But some of the stuff being trotted out as 'evidence' of mortal fear being far too OP is just nonsense. The 500k HP kobold died too quickly, oh my god, the game is broken and the sky really is falling.

Thanks.

Probably thats the reason also why before most mobs who were rednamed was quest bosses, and suddenly most of minibosses also from orange named were changed to rednamed. my example was to show scaling of MF damage according to hp to explain why scaling as it is now is broken for any higher content were monsters are getting more hp, Any effect which does % Hp damage by any means is broken.

And for somone who uses pure damage MF maybe not that important if i crit on my qstaff half-orc for near 10k crits on helpless i wont care too much about MF for simple reason it's damage i do while combining multiple sources of damage, boosts status damage etc. And issue on MF is any attack speed/attack number build which can have low damage but dominate end game for a simple MF proc ratio. If my Shuriken build throws up to 6 shurikens on each attack with spelltouched and triggers dozen effect including nerv venom, if i cared at least a bit to benefit even further from OP mechanics like MF having up to 5 shurikens but Killing monsters in seconds with d2 shuriken becouse they are let's say with nerv venom which have no save or just by shreding Hp from triggering it, i address it as issue. And if you really so ignorant while using weapons to pretend MF again not noticable/useless or in any other sense too weak to be even bother then why such comosion which directly address it as issue.

I don't mind one evening to make simple shuriken thrower build/ranged build which clears dungeons fast not becouse (crossbows/shurikens are OP), but becouse they trigger 5% chance effect on multiple targets so offen monsters don't stand a chance to even attack, but i wonder why you can't make yourself to do it, for somone who uses effect on daily basis you should know better than anyone else exactly HOW broken it is otherwise there were no such commosion and grinding to get those "GODLY" weapons in first place.

[GroundhogDay]

I will say that this nerf is probably going to kill DW as a raid, i know i will not run it anytime soon again.

I will also say that, in my opinion, this kind of behavior form the dev team sets a precedent that makes me unsure about what to do with future builds or items. I mean, if this can happen here, and with all that happened lately (as evidenced by previous posters arguments about freemium marketing), who's to say it won't happen again?

Right now i'll probably take care of my 2/3 capped toons, take them to cap again when cap will be 30, run a couple of times the new content for the novelty of it and then just be done.

I feel there's no real point in grinding anything anymore (be it experience or items) in a game that's all about grinding, which is weird.

I still hope (and i seldom do that) that with enough voices we may change the devs team minds to act with a softer nerf. (we all knew it was coming but not this bad)

[noinfo]

Probably thats the reason also why before most mobs who were rednamed was quest bosses, and suddenly most of minibosses also from orange named were changed to rednamed. my example was to show scaling of MF damage according to hp to explain why scaling as it is now is broken for any higher content were monsters are getting more hp, Any effect which does % Hp damage by any means is broken.

And for somone who uses pure damage MF maybe not that important if i crit on my qstaff half-orc for near 10k crits on helpless i wont care too much about MF for simple reason it's damage i do while combining multiple sources of damage, boosts status damage etc. And issue on MF is any attack speed/attack number build which can have low damage but dominate end game for a simple MF proc ratio. If my Shuriken build throws up to 6 shurikens on each attack with spelltouched and triggers dozen effect including nerv venom, if i cared at least a bit to benefit even further from OP mechanics like MF having up to 5 shurikens but Killing monsters in seconds with d2 shuriken becouse they are let's say with nerv venom which have no save or just by shreding Hp from triggering it, i address it as issue. And if you really so ignorant while using weapons to pretend MF again not noticable/useless or in any other sense too weak to be even bother then why such comosion which directly address it as issue.

I don't mind one evening to make simple shuriken thrower build/ranged build which clears dungeons fast not becouse (crossbows/shurikens are OP), but becouse they trigger 5% chance effect on multiple targets so offen monsters don't stand a chance to even attack, but i wonder why you can't make yourself to do it, for somone who uses effect on daily basis you should know better than anyone else exactly HOW broken it is otherwise there were no such commosion and grinding to get those "GODLY" weapons in first place.

So why are throwers not dominating the game? I do see a lot of mechanics but not because of mortal fear. Is there a reason that shuriken builds should not be good? I would never make one but I am certainly not worried about them,

Once again I look forward to lamania opening to see your video

[slarden]

This is the kind of exaggerating nonsense that makes these forums so silly.

The ability is relatively unchanged.

Let me rephrase what you said for you to be more accurate..

"30-40 runs of a raid to make a single item - which you obviously realize is incredibly powerful in its current iteration and no content can reasonably be designed without specifically accounting for it one way or another"

They can either nerf it completely, or leave it mostly as is yet adjust it for future content; but let's be honest, you knew it was coming. Why else would EVERYONE go through so much trouble for it?

Seriously guys.. stuff that is "THAT GOOD", and you know what I mean, often will need to be adjusted. How do you even design content with an item like that floating around? Make almost every mob immune to it? Do you not even have quests have trash mobs anymore? I mean, at that point, why bother? Wouldn't that make it "useless" in exactly the same way everyone is complaining?

I know everyone likes powerful items, but when something is powerful in a particular way, and again it's pretty obvious when it is.. this has happened time and time again for insta-kills, major HP reducers, etc., then you should expect it.

tl;dr stop putting all your eggs in one basket and then complaining when the basket is adjusted when you knew it was coming

The first thing I bolded makes it clear you don't really understand the issue here at all. Legendary content is coming out in a month or so. That is what many of us want to run and while we understand we may be running for better weapons - we want to use our existing weapons to run the new raids until we earn those new weapons. The ability is not adjusted for the new content it is eliminated entirely - without even a small attempt to adjust the ability so we can use the weapons for new content.

The second sentence bolded is another highly ironic comment. Adjusted is fine - that is what the players have been expecting since the raid was on lamannia! The item was always over-powered and needed adjustments from the beginning. Instead Turbine ignored requests to adjust mortal fear all along and instead just eliminates it after people ran numerous raids to craft it. People want to use these items in the new raids.

I suspect some people that never ran the raid or duped are loving this and will support this decision on the forums. I don't think many people that played by the rules and crafted their weapons after numerous raids will support this decision.

If this decision stands with no adjustments I won't be buying any legendary raid bypass timers and most likely will go into 0 spend mode in the game. Turbine can check my purchase history and see that I continued buying raid bypass timers even though they were easily available in the game - because it was the right thing to do.

Now Turbine has the opportunity to do the right thing, but I doubt they will do it.

I don't really care what you or anyone thinks about it. If Turbine doesn't understand why this is a bad decision - they deserve to reap the results they will get.

[AzureDragonas]

So why are throwers not dominating the game? I do see a lot of mechanics but not because of mortal fear. Is there a reason that shuriken builds should not be good? I would never make one but I am certainly not worried about them,

Once again I look forward to lamania opening to see your video

To be Blunt people have no clue how to build shuriken builds and instead of trying to reach doublestrike dex etc to appropiate level they choose shortcut on massive DPS crossbows with little investments and thinking when you pick enchamtns and suddenly you have [8w+]2d8 15-20/4x 19-20/6x great crossbow which even knockdown with no save on 19-20 monsters, thats all there is, but right now even without MF shurikens are way superior on trash clearing with proc rate/speed/attack number they are making that adjustment of "Manyshoot" to converting it to "Strongshoot" looks hilarious again compared to attack numbers shurikens are doing ALWAYS. While devs again seems favors broken builds more, while those who needs help either nerfing or reducing to ground in hope of "balancing" with exception on single target dps shurikens are superior to crossbows in same sense as duals are superior to other lines of SINGLE target damage.

[noinfo]

To be Blunt people have no clue how to build shuriken builds and instead of trying to reach doublestrike dex etc to appropiate level they choose shortcut on massive DPS crossbows with little investments and thinking when you pick enchamtns and suddenly you have [8w+]2d8 15-20/4x 19-20/6x great crossbow which even knockdown with no save on 19-20 monsters, thats all there is, but right now even without MF shurikens are way superior on trash clearing with proc rate/speed/attack number they are making that adjustment of "Manyshoot" to converting it to "Strongshoot" looks hilarious again compared to attack numbers shurikens are doing ALWAYS. While devs again seems favors broken builds more, while those who needs help either nerfing or reducing to ground in hope of "balancing" with exception on single target dps shurikens are superior to crossbows in same sense as duals are superior to other lines of SINGLE target damage.

You are kidding yourself here. One of the things you find quickly is that meta game builders will have pulled apart the best type of damage build possible, maybe you have a fantastic build that outclasses all the mechanics, Once again I would love to see this myself screen shots or video.

Your claim is that your thrower shuriken build with mortal fear can trivialise TOEE EE. I dispute this as I believe you have no idea of how it works in practice as observed by your posts it has been soloed before by various builds and I have no doubt a thrower can, so I am asking you to back up your statements with evidence.

[AzureDragonas]

You are kidding yourself here. One of the things you find quickly is that meta game builders will have pulled apart the best type of damage build possible, maybe you have a fantastic build that outclasses all the mechanics, Once again I would love to see this myself screen shots or video.

Your claim is that your thrower shuriken build with mortal fear can trivialise TOEE EE. I dispute this as I believe you have no idea of how it works in practice as observed by your posts it has been soloed before by various builds and I have no doubt a thrower can, so I am asking you to back up your statements with evidence.

So in other words you understand meta damage builds are able to solo it, and you understand that with throwers it's possible too, while i picked obvious example to show how something what can trigger effect multiple times easily can take something broken as MF to a point where only attack speed/number matters, and you wanna see in video how exactly shooting at high speed multiple shurikens with MF looks in temple to proove my statement that effect alone makes "meta damage" builds behind on how 1 effect can clean dungeon? Am i correct?

[noinfo]

So in other words you understand meta damage builds are able to solo it, and you understand that with throwers it's possible too, while i picked obvious example to show how something what can trigger effect multiple times easily can take something broken as MF to a point where only attack speed/number matters, and you wanna see in video how exactly shooting at high speed multiple shurikens with MF looks in temple to proove my statement that effect alone makes "meta damage" builds behind on how 1 effect can clean dungeon? Am i correct?

I think that you have made a weapon in laments, used it in a non combat situation to see ideal results and maybe tried it against a few trash mobs. If it is as powerful as you believe than this should not be an issue for you should it? Right now at best you are theorising under ideal conditions, I believe you perhaps need to try it under game conditions, you did after all make it sound easy to do. This would at least lead to some credibility rather than quoting numbers in ideal situations. Am I being unreasonable?

Edit and just to be clear, not just killing a few mobs, actually run the quest

[Hobgoblin]

can we leave off the personal attacks guys?

This was why the last thread got locked.......

[Drwaz99]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

This is going to leave a very bitter taste in many, many people as you try to promote eShroud. You invalidate hours and hours of people's time and then immediate say by releasing eShroud: DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN WITH YET A NEW SYSTEM AND THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE IF WE MESS UP, WE'LL INVALIDATE ALL THE TIME YOU SPENT ON THAT, TOO AND BLAME DUPERS INSTEAD OF TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR ACTIONS!

Mortal fear is a ML 28 weapon..so people will get one, maybe two levels out of it. It's now junk. Quit being lazy and adjust it to work to a lesser degree in legendary content. For once please do the right thing instead of over reacting to the 10th degree. Overreacting has done nothing but blow up in your face, and you would have thought you would have learned by now, but it appears you haven't.

Another bad, bad move by Turbine. Seriously guys, get your act together.

[slarden]

can we leave off the personal attacks guys?

This was why the last thread got locked.......

Turbine will find a way to lock it regardless, but I agree with you- it just distracts from the main point and some appear to want to do exactly that - distract from the main point.

[Edwardt]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

From my position now, with a look into the future of the game and what I expect from future contend, I could only accept a MF weapon which works like right now in the currently existent quest contend.
I would approve an adjustment on the effect for legendary contend (only), if the MF effect is transformed into something more balanced, but comparable to other t3 effects. Simply turning off the effect wouldn't do it.
It would be a painful cut, but for the greater good, to make the future of the game more balanced and easier to create for the developers I would make sacrifices.


[...]
This is how Turbine values player time. 30-40 runs of a raid to make a single item - and the ability you crafted is gone without an attempt to modify the item so it's not over-powered.

agreed. If something needs work which doesn't necessarily includes fun to create, it should have a decent value. The longer the target remains unchanged from nerfs the more legitimate seems it's position in the game.


I think you guys need to offer people an exchange: put a turn in in the barter UI at the forge: 30 phlogs for any MF weapon crunched

The dupers get nothing from this as they will almost certainly have many more phlogs laying around, this benefits people who made MF weapons the hard way and who are not okay with them being a two level temporary weapon... [...]


This would be an option. With a 1:1 exchange the problem with duped material would be reduced to a minimum.
Still the raiding would be going on, because there are enough player around which still need material and/or items from it.
Not to forget, running it once in a while can be fun ;)


can we leave off the personal attacks guys?

This was why the last thread got locked.......

~ signed

[Thar]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

While this is probably the best solution not to rage 99.9% of the playerbase that have built them, some analysis on why this was the most popular option should occur. IE the other options were mostly garbage with one exception for high crit range weapons. Some tweaks to make those other recipes better should be done.

As for Mortal fear, it should have been changed to a flat 2000 or 5000 on the 5% hit. This would have capped the helpless damage and allowed it to work in legendary content. Its really sad that some solution couldn't have been made for legendary since where else are you going to use a lvl 28 weapon? somehow cap at 10% on helpness. Not like you can't kill helpless fast ANYWAY... You may go farm lower content but seriously who wants to do that. We've been doing that for months.

[GroundhogDay]

Still the raiding would be going on, because there are enough player around which still need material and/or items from it.
Not to forget, running it once in a while can be fun ;)

Lots of valid points, i just (kind of) disagree with this one (not entirely tho).

The way i see it, i really don't have any reason to run DW anymore. Sure, there may be someone still after that t3 spell crit boost or dragonbreath, and i'm happy for them, but i'm not gonna run a raid for someone else. Especially when i don't think it's a fun raid.

Sure, that's just me, but i wonder how many people are going to look at DW lfms and think along the same lines.

I actually think it will be a lot harder to find someone willing to spend time tanking a dracolich or kiting battleragers when there's no reward for it. I think this will indirectly impact those who still find shadow phlogs useful. Or phlogs in general for that matters.

[Jumpnshoot]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

There have been many sensible thoughts and proposals to nerfing moral fear in this thread and others than the nuke from orbit that you have decided on. This has been an effect that the players have been telling you is OP since it came out, but has been met by silence for 18 months. No, we'll change this in the future ala holy sword. No, we are thinking about not making this useful in the future. No, hey don't grind through mirrors and random phalactary spawns to build this. No, how was this announced? In an edited post that didn't even show up on Dev Tracker. While I would like to see MF kept the way it is, many of the suggestions for adjusting the effect were good ones that do not inspire the anger and disappointment I am feeling at the moment.

Turbine had done a lot of good in recent months with the class passes and actually making the game enjoyable again. I was ready to spend some money to buy TP (after 2 years of not doing so) due to these good decisions. Then, something changed with the Devs. Let's nerf stuff. Not just the stuff that was OP, but invalidating a lot of the good that happened previously. There was no real reason for the PRR/MRR changes. But to make them on top of making archers in the Orchard hit for way too much, to champs one shotting reasonable builds. Combined with a slate of nerfs that were not necessary by any stretch of the imagination. Then you go selling +20 hearts right after. Then you have a sale on raid timers only to announce they won't work for the next raid. I can assure you that making your customers angry does not help you make money.

I'm not going to let the door hit me on the way out, but I'm definitely on the way out.

[Shoemaker]

Still the raiding would be going on, because there are enough player around which still need material and/or items from it.
Not to forget, running it once in a while can be fun ;)Lots of valid points, i just (kind of) disagree with this one (not entirely tho).

The way i see it, i really don't have any reason to run DW anymore. Sure, there may be someone still after that t3 spell crit boost or dragonbreath, and i'm happy for them, but i'm not gonna run a raid for someone else. Especially when i don't think it's a fun raid.

Sure, that's just me, but i wonder how many people are going to look at DW lfms and think along the same lines.

I actually think it will be a lot harder to find someone willing to spend time tanking a dracolich or kiting battleragers when there's no reward for it. I think this will indirectly impact those who still find shadow phlogs useful. Or phlogs in general for that matters.

I'd actually agree with Ed's comment here myself. I have an artificer that I'm still trying to run through Deathwyrm to get enough phlogs (although the drop rate seems to have been reduced because I've run it 3-4 times and seen only one phlog drop, not sure what is up with that) to add T3 Mortal Fear to a Repeating Heavy Crossbow DESPITE the impending and not likely to change upcoming Legendary Ward for Legendary monsters. While I fully support DDO's decision to have this ward prevent the proc, I acknowledge that this change will unbalance the effect and put it from being the strongest effect to the weakest. In light of that, I've been trying to voice different ways of mitigating that massive change to the effect (like boosting the force damage part).


As for Mortal fear, it should have been changed to a flat 2000 or 5000 on the 5% hit. This would have capped the helpless damage and allowed it to work in legendary content.

I see alternatives in this thread for having it be a flat 2-5K damage proc, and I'd have to oppose that one as although I occasionally see a proc for over 2K, the majority of them are in the 1-2K range or less. This is also too much like the solution to all the instadeath weapon effects vorpal, banishing, disruption... There needs to be a new/different solution


I think you guys need to offer people an exchange: put a turn in in the barter UI at the forge: 30 phlogs for any MF weapon crunched

This wouldn't solve the problem of the effect going from the most to least powerful effect. I would be really frustrated to have to crunch my item, farm out new ingots and comms (and possible phlogs, which I'll get into in a moment.), recraft the item and spend lots of time researching and picking a new effect. What if the new effect I want uses Fire Dragon Phlogs instead of Shadow Dragon Phlogs? This doesn't help me... I still need to run lots of Fire on Thunder Peak. Are they going to offer an option to swap my Shadow Phlogs for Fire Plogs at a 1:1 ratio? Wouldn't that make the problem of finding groups to run Deathwyrm even worse as FoTP is easier to put a party together for because it's a simple tank and smash as opposed to a series of puzzles and guesswork/luck before a tank and smash?


If anyone else had an idea that I missed (this thread is hot and I'm having a hard time keeping up on all the posts), and I didn't respond to it with my perspective, please feel free to bring it to my attention. :)

[Dandonk]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

Cap the damage, make it work less in legendary, whatever... but this? Arbitrary cutoffs in effectiveness for abilities are just bad. We get, in effect, three different games now: Stuff that is good in heroic, but doesn't work in 20+. Stuff that works in epics, but not in 30+. And then whatever works in 30+ (until it gets nerfed as well - and who knows what and how the next nerf will be now?).

That is not friendly to players building characters. Suddenly your character, who was doing so well, gets hallmark abilities taken away simply from turning a specific level. That is not satisfying, nor logical.

Yes, some things should be toned down to avoid them trivializing content. But not a complete nuke-it-from-orbit nerf. That is just frustrating for players who have a perfectly fine way of playing, until the arbitrary rules change hit.

Please reconsider. Mortal Fear is likely too powerful. I agree. But there are other ways of dealing with it than stopping it from working entirely. There have been many suggestions, so please try to find another way than another arbitrary cut-off.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

I'm no fan of Mortal Fear given that it is the default t3 option for melee/ranged Thunderforged. But this is not a fix. It's a cop-out.

Turbine should recognize their error and correct it. There are many ways that this could be done.

Instead Turbine has decided to let their error stand and just turn it off in Legendary content. Leaving it a broken mechainic in all other content. This is the worst possible way to address the issues with Mortal Fear.

Why pick the worst possible option? Why?

[Kompera_Oberon]

I think some of the loudest howls to nerf mortal fear are coming from people who have no concept of how quickly a well built, geared and played melee or ranged build destroys trash monsters even in EE endgame content nor of how the effect works on average rather than in the best case scenario. There also seem to be little concept of comparing the power of mortal fear to other powerful abilities in game with short cooldowns which can be used at will rather than occurring by chance.
I see posts like this over and over in defense of Mortal Fear. Downplay downplay, it's not that great, it's just another weapon effect, force damage isn't overpowered, half health when the target has 200 HP doesn't do much, etc.

They never bother to address the facts on the field: If you are a melee or ranged character your first T3 option will be Mortal Fear. Period. Because it is far and away better than the other melee/ranged options in t3.

This is the multiple failure on the part of Turbine. They first created a system where one option is significantly better than any other which has the same cost. And now that they have recognized this fact they are nerfing the better option. Not by reducing its effect down to the level of the other t3 options, but by putting a cap on the ability itself.

Failure compounded by failure. This is not the way to design a game.

[AzureDragonas]

I'm no fan of Mortal Fear given that it is the default t3 option for melee/ranged Thunderforged. But this is not a fix. It's a cop-out.

Turbine should recognize their error and correct it. There are many ways that this could be done.

Instead Turbine has decided to let their error stand and just turn it off in Legendary content. Leaving it a broken mechainic in all other content. This is the worst possible way to address the issues with Mortal Fear.

Why pick the worst possible option? Why?

There is worse solutioon to let it be. They are focused already on new content new promissed GS crafting and have no time to even fix exploits using holes in logic which could be solved not so hard, further to fix something what is broken by its design itself. Even if its shut down on legendary it's still way better than let MF into new content.

[slarden]

There is worse solutioon to let it be. They are focused already on new content new promissed GS crafting and have no time to even fix exploits using holes in logic which could be solved not so hard, further to fix something what is broken by its design itself. Even if its shut down on legendary it's still way better than let MF into new content.

The right solution is to make adjustments for all content. This was the case when TF was new and it's the case now.

I don't accept this as an answer and neither should anyone.

[AzureDragonas]

The right solution is to make adjustments for all content. This was the case when TF was new and it's the case now.

I don't accept this as an answer and neither should anyone.

Well it's good couse i don't ask you to accept it either i point that MF is issue same as expoited builds, which still runs, but becouse MF is just broken and not exploit itself it's harder to address it. So rather than telling how its unfair to fix exploits people can argue about how it's "unfair" to disable broken stuff for end content. They told they gonna look into Exploited builds soon, maybe then they will take look in MF too and remake MF too or fix in other way and right now at least disabling IT while they have no time to work on it, instead of ignoring for new content it's indeed right decision. Unless you really think effect which is OP against 8-20k hp mobs in some sense is less OP against 20-40k hp monsters in new content.

[Marshal_Lannes]

I would have been perfectly happy to play those raids just as much for less powerful loot, and I would have cheerfully signed up for the next grind too, for something incrementally better because that's the nature of the beast. But I very much resent what is happening instead.

Mortal fear was flagged from before its release as being very powerful, arguably too powerful. But despite that it got into the game in its current form and stayed there for 18 months or so.


I don't think quests have been designed around this weapon effect. If you can cite even one and prove your point, you go right ahead.

Much like the game itself, you also really need to get your position straight on the issue of character power. On the one hand, you think mortal fear is overpowered. On the other hand, you have advocated for mob fortitude saves to be lowered to 50 in EE endgame content so even truly dreadful wizards can hit those mobs with a FoD and have it land 95% of the time. When you come to a logically consistent stance on the issue of character power please be sure to let us all know. Just like when the game decides trash monsters are meant to be a real obstacle which can't be taken out so easily, or things we can effortlessly destroy, hopefully the developers will let us know which one they want too.

Thanks.

OK let's take a look. If you were perfectly happy to play the raids with or without MF, then you lost nothing from the experience. You got the fun of gameplay.

I obviously don't know why it took them 18 months to address MF, that is a question for the Devs. What is clear to me is that ONE option is so far and away the best option over everything else it needs to be nerfed. This is not game balance. You must have game balance.

DoJ was clearly designed around MF.

My position is very consistent. I feel ALL classes should feel like they are contributing to a quest. No one should feel like they are irrelevant or baggage handlers to the power 6 classes. I have advocated further nerfing all the power 6 classes. If that is not going to be done, then all the other classes need something done for them so that they are relevant in questing. Yes, FoD should land 95% of the time, it is the basic attack of a PM. And I did not say dreadful wizards anywhere. I said wizards with an INT in the 50s, the same number many melee have in their primary DPS stat and steamroll thru content. Melee are OP, removing MF from new content further helps to close the gap.

[Novalis]

I would like to say we may not be seeing the forest through the trees. This thread is about mortal fear being nerfed but this also brings sharply into focus the general strategy & mindset of the people that make the game as we play it currently. And only recently within the week on the forums and in this thread am I seeing something that resembles individual thought and critical thinking coming together with the DDO community. Without this type of interaction displayed in the dialogue established in this thread and others I've read, Mortal Fear would become another needless garnish for the cacophonous catastrophe of colossal blunders implemented in the last 8 months.

With t3 TF weapons, I hit harder than with others but across the spread I get my damage bypass as opposed to the gear out of the last new Duplo detail level throw away garbage pack that panders to a 1st lifer player that hasn't (or won't) run raids. I've said before, there is nothing wrong with letting this happen, but it certainly wasn't inclusive. With my TF weapons, I have 3. My all fear weapon, my all shadow weapon and my vulnerable/fort bypass/crippling flames weapon. I'm glad I farmed for my shadow weapon. But even when i'm hitting for decent numbers, mortal fear doesn't hit as much as people exaggerate. I kill mobs just as easily without my fear weapon. Hitting a 50k killing blow with mortal fear is just sprinkles on my cupcake of doom. Just as I was reading the new feats coming, it made sense why things like prr/mrr were taken away with really no justification. Take away what will be given back just in a new form except you now have to grind all over again.

We could talk about the raid timers, we could talk about the +20 hearts. But this is a standard practice for Turbine. Remember during the mimic event and people were farming Fresco and Haunted Halls? People were not only getting heaps of remnants but they were also getting many chests. So many chest in fact it increased the droprate for tomes. Turbine couldn't allow for this. So not only did they nerf the droprate for champ chests, but tomes as well. Then ToEE came out and in all the months I have seen only 4 +7 tomes drop for the server.

Then comes u27. Warlocks and DoJ causing serverwide lag & making any runs nearly impossible locking people up on other runs and even on their boats. What was the remedy? The first week while everyone was frozen in place was the availability of +7 tomes in the store! Then after a week of more persisting lag, Otto's boxes. You can't play but you can pay to make up for the progress you lost for the prematurely rolled out content that crippled the game. As I have said, there is a forest beyond the trees of this one Mortal Fear issue. There are many great players coming onto the forums as of late and sharing their insights that demand to be considered before the arbitrary orbital nuke. We need to come together and demand to be heard not just about this issue but the many others we have seen. This one issue is just one tree to chop down, but after the 'balancing' and what we have seen previously, Turbine very well could accidentally set the whole thing on fire & with us in it.

[Thrudh]

I think mortal fear should never have been released.

I think mortal fear should be nerfed in all content but still work in Legendary.

I think people who are calling a video game company "evil" with long rants about injustice need to stop playing video games.

[PermaBanned]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.
Is Mortal Fear's 1/2 Health proc being multiplied by Helpless effects WAI?

Was that really it's origonal design intention?

You {collectively} feel letting MF work as it does in level 30 & under content and preventing the MF Proc in Legendary content is better - why?

[IronClan]

offer an option to swap my Shadow Phlogs for Fire Plogs at a 1:1 ratio?

Okay don't see why not, though it would lower the amount of FotP runs... and allow a lot of people to make their Draconic reinvig off handers and then to farm ToEE (which is bound to become popular)

I will say this 30 odd force damage on hit is not "useless" which is another reason why TF was such a badly designed system.

I don't believe the person who made TF is still working at Turbine, (Dr. Octothorp was it?) but I'm still in danger of getting infractions if I say my true feelings about how this was designed.

Lets just say this; the amount of mathematical balance between affixes at different tiers and the things given away in combined affixes displays a fundamental and complete lack of understanding of what works well in DDO and what is garbage, and what is ALREADY good (Khopeshes) and doesn't need any boosts.

At T3 we have 5% chances to proc a 5% chance to fail a save, (for those scoring at home: you have to hit the lotto for it to effect anything, maybe proc's a couple times an hour) right next to a 5% chance to strip half a mobs HP's off with NO SAVE AND THIRTY SIX DAMAGE PER HIT... either one of these separately would be stronger than most of the other T3's. That is such bad design work I can't ... I wont... bah... It's indefensible.



35% armor piecing is an affix by itself, it doesn't need neg damage to be the best T2
Arguably due to not that much being resistant the Neg damage would be clearly a better affix even without armor piercing, problem is it doesn't scale by multiplier so it's a proxy buff to high crit range weapons and useless on 5% weapons... maybe like me; you wonder what the **** dwarves were thinking when they all use 5% crit range weapons!? I guess Thunderholme Dwarves were fond of Khopeshes
Crippling flames doesn't need neg level to be good on Cold mobs specially as a "golf bag" situational weapon with other fire stuff on it. But no one bothered with making a fire golf bag weapon because MF is so OP who cares about situational utility it's always best. Now I know neg levels are not all that, but it's still unnecessary.
Crippling Flames ALSO doesn't have a multiplier scaling effect on it's crits which means again: high crit range weapons are very disproportional benefited by it's on crit nature, more so now that Improved Critical: Feat nerf has made 5% crit range weapons so far behind the meta.
The entire crafting system makes high crit range weapons the best and undoes YEARS of carefully crafted named weapons that previous Dev's put in to reduce the dominance of those clearly optimal high range weapons! They literally scrapped weapon diversity in one fell blow due to ignorance of previous Design intentions.


In the end Dwarven Thunderforged weapons design failure can be summed up thusly: the absolute last kind of weapon you want to make in the dwarven Thunder Forge is anything a Dwarf would use. That's pretty damning.

(and this was before the Warhammer pulverizor Barb Rav T5 synergy so stuff a sock in it nit pickers)

[dualscissors]

Since I didn't get around to earning all the phlogs and building a MF weapon I don't feel personally burned by the decision but I understand why people who did earn their phlogs feel jipped.

That said:

1. It's hard to please everyone but at least minimizing bad feelings should be a top goal for Turbine. You don't want to sew ill will and mistrust toward the company. Even if people don't get their favorite solution, meeting in the middle is something people can respect as an earnest attempt.

2. Mortal Fear has the potential to do an absurdly out of bounds amount of damage and anything with that sort of power should get reigned back (not be in the game to begin with) so as to keep power creep from leading to situations where quests have to have all red names to mitigate said absurdly out of bounds power.

3. My biggest complaint with the solution "works for level 28 only!" is this is incredibly inelegant and lazy.

EDIT: 4. Go with something that dials the absurd damage spikes back but preserves MF so it works in level 29-30. Lots of more palatable ways to do this: 5k dmg cap, +X dmg, force knockdown, etc.

A power working for 1 level is just bad.

[Ghwyn]

I like the idea of turbine fixing past mistakes. MF is too powerful, and with the rate of attack for some builds, it procs often. Combine that with the problem of duping that far too many engaged in, and its an obvious target to be nerfed, much like tornado pots were. I would nerf it by putting a cool down on the proc; one minute would suffice.

Those that complain are just being short sighted. Look at all the old gear you farmed out for even longer but don't use anymore, or rarely. TF weapons are not end game, and once you get your sentient weapons, all TF will just take up bank space.

[Dandonk]

Those that complain are just being short sighted. Look at all the old gear you farmed out for even longer but don't use anymore, or rarely. TF weapons are not end game, and once you get your sentient weapons, all TF will just take up bank space.

MF is probably too powerful. I agree. But I think this way of "fixing" it is harmful - it takes away hours and hours of work by honest players (and the dishonest ones will not be affected too much - they can just make new weapons at once), introduces (another) arbitrary cut-off mechanism that only serves to confuse players making decisions on gear, and it will not, in fact, address the current problems MF poses (since it will continue to work in 20-30 content).

Fixing it would be to address the OP part in all content, and making sure it is still a useful abiility - but not OP. And then to NOT introduces another arbitrary cut-off.

Buffing the other tier 3 TF options would be good, too, but I doubt that'll happen.

[Basura_Grande]

Why pick the worst possible option? Why?

This is confusing to me as well, we've presented them with much better options yet they insist on going forward with this horrible one.

[GroundhogDay]

I'd actually agree with Ed's comment here myself. I have an artificer that I'm still trying to run through Deathwyrm to get enough phlogs (although the drop rate seems to have been reduced because I've run it 3-4 times and seen only one phlog drop, not sure what is up with that) to add T3 Mortal Fear to a Repeating Heavy Crossbow DESPITE the impending and not likely to change upcoming Legendary Ward for Legendary monsters. While I fully support DDO's decision to have this ward prevent the proc, I acknowledge that this change will unbalance the effect and put it from being the strongest effect to the weakest. In light of that, I've been trying to voice different ways of mitigating that massive change to the effect (like boosting the force damage part).

I'm not saying no one will run it, i'm saying there'll be far less people willing to. I for one will not run it anymore, neither that nor fotp. I mean, bang for bucks and time spent, a t2 is enough to take me to the next weapon, whatever it may be. This will also mean i will not be running eshroud as well, well maybe once for the novelty, but that's it. I'm not going to waste time farming something that could be invalidated on a whim. And we could argue that, with all that happened lately, any build is in the same murky waters as MF. Everything deemed too powerful, in my mind, could be invalidated with this line of thinking, maybe tomorrow we'll discover smite evil's too powerful and needs not to work (as with holy sword and shields). I believe it's a matter of trust.


Crippling flames doesn't need neg level to be good on Cold mobs specially as a "golf bag" situational weapon with other fire stuff on it. But no one bothered with making a fire golf bag weapon because MF is so OP who cares about situational utility it's always best.

I'm kind of on board with what you say, apart for the fact that, i believe, situational weapons should not take 6 months to farm. Now, if i could make one in, say, two months? That would be totally acceptable.


Maybe, since now tf t3 is trivial and the next shiny thing it's already in sight they could boost the drop rates for mats, kinda like they did with Haunted Halls not so long ago. This way i could consider tf as just another cheap crafting not worth worrying about.

[Grailhawk]

This is confusing to me as well, we've presented them with much better options yet they insist on going forward with this horrible one.

My guess is that they can spin this as not a nerf. Since it still works in the content that exists now in the exact same way its not exactly a nerf. Since its not a nerf or a change in current game play any cries for a deconstruction system can be ignored or countered with the a statement like "nothing has changed it still just as useful as when you built it in all the content that existed then".

Its a slightly underhanded way of getting around the cries for TF deconstruction.

I think they have practically said this already.

[Basura_Grande]

My guess is that they can spin this as not a nerf. Since it still works in the content that exists now in the exact same way its not exactly a nerf. Since its not a nerf or a change in current game play any cries for a deconstruction system can be ignored or countered with the a statement like "nothing has changed it still just as useful as when you built it in all the content that existed then".

Its a slightly underhanded way of getting around the cries for TF deconstruction.

I think they have practically said this already.

Spin it however they want, a 5k damage cap that still works in Legendary will **** off a lot fewer people in the long run.

[Axeyu]

I think people who are calling a video game company "evil" with long rants about injustice need to stop playing video games.

This.

[Ykt]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

To continue this trend you should also (re-)introduce Legendary Death Ward for all Legendary monsters.

What's worse than taking 50% mob HP in 1 hit? Killing the mob in 1 hit.

And postpone the caster pass, casters are OP. Everyone is playing Palemaster.

[Ykt]

TF weapons are not end game, and once you get your sentient weapons, all TF will just take up bank space.

Are sentient weapons already ingame? No. Then TF is endgame.

[Chai]

I think mortal fear should never have been released.

I agree - its was obviously OP on day one


I think mortal fear should be nerfed in all content but still work in Legendary.

Depends. I think it should be the straight proc, no multipliers.


I think people who are calling a video game company "evil" with long rants about injustice need to stop playing video games.

But this is the heightened temperature of the reaction that occurs when people pay money in order to get something, or in this case, get something faster. Once money enters the specific equation, and a decision that affects what was paid for is made, the user becomes a lot more disgruntled than if they just earned it in game. Compare this to the WoP nerfs for instance.

[Basura_Grande]

And postpone the caster pass, casters are OP. Everyone is playing Palemaster.

What game are you playing? It's clearly not DDO.

[Catteras]

Our earlier decision on Mortal Fear still stands: The half-health proc portion of it will not function in Legendary content. We had debated whether to reduce the ability's power throughout both Epic and Legendary content, or take the action we ultimately decided on, but feel it is better to allow the benefit to be used as it currently is, in all of the places it currently works.

Translation: We were too short-sighted to make it right when we designed it, and now we're too **** lazy to rebalance it now. So, we'll just turn it off and kindly ask our players to bend over.

So 6 months of raiding to get 30 phlogs on JUST ONE of my toons, who I then made a MF weapon for, were basically wasted. Now I'm glad that those 6 months burned me out to the point that I didn't feel like starting the grind on my other toon I have sitting at 28 right now. Otherwise, I'd be feeling doubly screwed right now.

I don't expect last year's loot to be as good as this year's loot necessarily (this is an MMO, after all), but hot ****, I sure don't expect it to be rendered worthless either.

*digs around to find that Angry Mob image from back when Turbine lied about getting enough commendations to ETR by playing EH once and done*

[Cordovan]

This thread has again shown the inability of some folks to discuss this topic without resorting to insults and fighting, so the thread is once again closed. We've already given our answer to the OP's question. Rehashing the same or similar arguments to the previous threads on this topic are not productive.