Update 29 Feats: Legendary Feats

[Steelstar]

***Please make sure you have read this thread first, it contains an overview of Update 29 Feats.*** (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467837-Update-29-Feats-Overview)


At level 30 you will get a choice of one Legendary Feat. These feats are stronger than most of your standard feats, and pull their power from different planes. To help round power levels in upper Epic, a lot of these feats are meant to be a little more powerful for characters that have built for versatility; most of them include parts useful to many kinds of players.




Scion of the Plane of Earth

+4 to the DCs of Conjuration spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
+20 PRR
+10 Acid Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
Add 2d20 Acid damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)




Scion of the Plane of Air

+4 to the DCs of Evocation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
+4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap
+10 Electric Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
Add 2d20 Electric damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)




Scion of the Plane of Fire

+25% Spell Critical Damage with all spells
+10 PRR, +10 MRR
+10 Fire Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
Add 2d20 Fire damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)




Scion of the Plane of Water

+200 Maximum Spell Points
+20 MRR
+10 Cold Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
Add 2d20 Cold damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)




Scion of the Feywild

+10 Sonic Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
+4 to the DCs of Enchantment spells, +2 to DCs of other spells
Add 2d20 Sonic damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
+20 Healing Amp




Scion of the Shadowfell

+4 to the DCs of Necromancy spells, +2 to DCs of other spells
+40 Negative Spell Power
+20 Negative Amp (assuming you take healing from Negative)
Weapon and Unarmed attacks heal you for 1d6 Positive damage, or 1d6 Negative damage if you are Undead.




Scion of the Ethereal Plane

Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect




Scion of the Astral Plane

+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.




Scion of Mechanus

+20 Repair & Rust Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+20 Repair Amplification (assuming you take healing from Repair)
+10% Fortification Bypass on weapon and unarmed attacks
Gain: Master Reconstruction, shares cooldown with Communion of Scribing




Scion of Celestia

+20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+30% Crit Damage with Positive, Light, & Alignment spells
+150 Maximum Hit Points
+4 to Will Saves




Scion of Elysium

Summoned creatures gain +25 PRR and MRR
Summoned creatures gain +20 MP, RP, and USP
Summoned creatures gain +100% Fortification
Summoned creatures gain a 5% chance to ignore incoming damage entirely. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.




Scion of Arborea

+20 Melee and Ranged Power
+20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power
+2 to the Enhancement Bonus of your weapon
+4 to Fortitude Saves




Scion of Limbo

+2 Determination Bonus to all Saves
eight buffs, each one minute long. Cycles randomly.

+40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power
+16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot, +20% Spell Crit Damage
+30 PRR and MRR
+20% Dodge and +40 Healing Amp
+20 DR /Law
Your weapon/unarmed strikes and spells deal 1d20 Chaos Damage
Each time you would be damaged, you have a +5% chance to completely ignore the damage. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.
Confetti explodes around your shoulders. Festive!

[Flavilandile]

Confetti explodes around your shoulders. Festive!


Oh my... Can you fix the Confetti Stick ( Wayfinder Scepter ) so that it's confetti effect actually stay on all the time... and doesn't turn off after 30 seconds ?

;)

[Spekdah_NZ]

Some nice options :-)

Limbo looks fun, question; about Limbo;
* do I have to cast the buff each minute?
* or cast it once and it cycles?
* or is it a passive that cycles automatically?

Mechanus allows a BF to free up alot of racial AP, also gives a FTP warforged (non caster) reconstruct at 30 :p

[UurlockYgmeov]

Oh my... Can you fix the Confetti Stick ( Wayfinder Scepter ) so that it's confetti effect actually stay on all the time... and doesn't turn off after 30 seconds ?

;)
:cool:

[Holymunchkin]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane

Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect





Calcs are saying that this is a lot better than Arb melee power ranged power.
I'd reccomend changing it to 1 point of sneak damage for 3 points of hide, and adding improved deception. OR everyone who wants max dps will be crying it is OP.

On a pure ranger you can get 100 hide pretty easy.
7 attacks per second, 50 sneak attack damage, 1.5 MP modifier, 150 MP
7*50*1.5*2.5= 1,300 dps

At 3 hide per sneak attack damage...
7*33*1.5*2.5= 866 dps. This seems like too little since its SA not MP, and Arb gives about 800 dps to a pure ranger. So give the feat imp. deception or sumtin else I tink.

[gwonbush]

Does the sneak attack damage of Scion of the Ethereal Plane work on ranks of hide, points spent in hide, or your hide score?

[Qhualor]

the biggest thing I don't like about these is that it resembles too much like EDs, as in very generalized so all builds can benefit from it.

Scion of the Ethereal Plane, there is already gear out there with perma blur and displacement. it looks like that would fit well with a rogue/ranger type. how long does the displacement last for? because when you are spotted by mobs and get hit or mobs miss you, you automatically come out of sneak mode.

Scion of Limbo, I could see min/max players pulling their hair over this one. I don't know if I like it or not because of how random and unreliable it would be when you would want a certain buff at the right time.

[Jasparion]

the biggest thing I don't like about these is that it resembles too much like EDs, as in very generalized so all builds can benefit from it.

Scion of the Ethereal Plane, there is already gear out there with perma blur and displacement. it looks like that would fit well with a rogue/ranger type. how long does the displacement last for? because when you are spotted by mobs and get hit or mobs miss you, you automatically come out of sneak mode.

Scion of Limbo, I could see min/max players pulling their hair over this one. I don't know if I like it or not because of how random and unreliable it would be when you would want a certain buff at the right time.

Surely min/max players wouldnt take Limbo. They would take the best from the above. Limbo is for people who want to have random fun.

[Demsac]

Scion of the Shadowfell
+4 to the DCs of Necromancy spells, +2 to DCs of other spells
+40 Negative Spell Power
+20 Negative Amp (assuming you take healing from Negative)
Weapon and Unarmed attacks heal you for 1d6 Positive damage, or 1d6 Negative damage if you are Undead.



Why not 30 Universal Spell Power and 10 negative like the others?

[Erik_Loki]

Calcs are saying that this is a lot better than Arb melee power ranged power.
I'd reccomend changing it to 1 point of sneak damage for 3 points of hide, and adding improved deception. OR everyone who wants max dps will be crying it is OP.

On a pure ranger you can get 100 hide pretty easy.
7 attacks per second, 50 sneak attack damage, 1.5 MP modifier, 150 MP
7*50*1.5*2.5= 1,300 dps

At 3 hide per sneak attack damage...
7*33*1.5*2.5= 866 dps. This seems like too little since its SA not MP, and Arb gives about 800 dps to a pure ranger. So give the feat imp. deception or sumtin else I tink.

i think you need to come back to first school... your counts are completely wrong

[LeoLionxxx]

Looks like a nice selection. Good theme here.

Suggestion: make the elemental damage bonus abilities toggles, so that they can be turned off when going against enemies that we would be healing with it (ex. Fire damage for Scion of Fire toggles on and off so we don't heal iron golems).

[Blastyswa]

Hate this. Because of this update, I will soon be out of shape, have no social life, and my eyes will bleed from spending so much time playing around with all these different powerful choices. At a preliminary glance, I now need to either boost my hide through the roof, pick a spellpower to find a way to slot, play with limbo and see how effective it's boosting is, try a super summon build with all the new summoning changes and wow people with the scariest Epic Tharaak Hound ever, or just go conservative and take a massive survivability boost. I know these feats are going to be shouted down as power creep, but personally they are all very well balanced with each other (Exception Mechanic and Astral, but those are for WF/Monk mainly anyway) and will be a lot of fun to put a lot of time into playing with.

With all the recent spellpower scaling melee/ranged attack type things that are showing up recently though, I hope that Epic Greensteel includes some type of innate bonus to a selected element in addition to melee capabilities. Otherwise, it'll be a bit of a pain trying to boost spellpower for these type abilities.

[slarden]

(https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467837-Update-29-Feats-Overview)

Scion of the Ethereal Plane

Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect








I love the list! So many interesting build options.

With all the lesser displacement items in the game may I suggest lesser displacement instead of blur. Also, instead of displacement while sneaking it would be nice to have displacement for xx seconds when coming out of sneak where xx is half your hide skill.

[Holymunchkin]

[B][URL="https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467837-Update-29-Feats-Overview"]

Scion of the Astral Plane

+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.




I don't feel this dps buff is good enough to compete with some of the others. Maybe add +1 crit threat? For monks add +1 ki regen and an additional 20% doublestrike?

[Holymunchkin]

your counts are completely wrong

lol

[Kielbasa]

Calcs are saying that this is a lot better than Arb melee power ranged power.
I'd reccomend changing it to 1 point of sneak damage for 3 points of hide, and adding improved deception. OR everyone who wants max dps will be crying it is OP.

On a pure ranger you can get 100 hide pretty easy.
7 attacks per second, 50 sneak attack damage, 1.5 MP modifier, 150 MP
7*50*1.5*2.5= 1,300 dps

At 3 hide per sneak attack damage...
7*33*1.5*2.5= 866 dps. This seems like too little since its SA not MP, and Arb gives about 800 dps to a pure ranger. So give the feat imp. deception or sumtin else I tink.

It ends up pretty balanced with the elemental ones when you factor in spell power and things like ToEE weapons. Have you seen that we are getting an additional 54 universal spell power from epic levels? Not to mention the 40 additional you would get from the legendary feat. Its going to be fairly easy to get ~60 damage a hit in elemental damage as well as the other benefits from those feats. Min maxers will find a way to game the system and get much more than that. I know the sonic one in a bard in fatesinger could net you ~100 a hit in the right situation.

[Grailhawk]

Calcs are saying that this is a lot better than Arb melee power ranged power.
I'd reccomend changing it to 1 point of sneak damage for 3 points of hide, and adding improved deception. OR everyone who wants max dps will be crying it is OP.

On a pure ranger you can get 100 hide pretty easy.
7 attacks per second, 50 sneak attack damage, 1.5 MP modifier, 150 MP
7*50*1.5*2.5= 1,300 dps

At 3 hide per sneak attack damage...
7*33*1.5*2.5= 866 dps. This seems like too little since its SA not MP, and Arb gives about 800 dps to a pure ranger. So give the feat imp. deception or sumtin else I tink.

IMO it shouldn't vary with Hide skill thats just going to lead to bad things like how Coup de Grace is based on preform there is to much legacy content that take skills for granted adding big chunks on the basis that its a niche and can get high then something like this would intend.

IMO it should just be a flat 10-15 d6 sneak attack,

[Vooduspyce]

Are these stances? The always on to weapons and unarmed attacks could be a problem when fighting mobs that are healed by certain damage types. Would be nice to be able to turn that off.

[Blastyswa]

Calculations are saying that this is a lot better than Arb melee power ranged power.
I'd recommend changing it to 1 point of sneak damage for 3 points of hide, and adding improved deception. OR everyone who wants max dps will be crying it is OP.

On a pure ranger you can get 100 hide pretty easy.
7 attacks per second, 50 sneak attack damage, 1.5 MP modifier, 150 MP
7*50*1.5*2.5= 1,300 dps

At 3 hide per sneak attack damage...
7*33*1.5*2.5= 866 dps. This seems like too little since its SA not MP, and Arb gives about 800 dps to a pure ranger. So give the feat imp. deception or something else I think.

70 Dexterity (Probably too high, this is with tomes and maxed out end-game gear)= +30 Hide
23 Ranks = +23 Hide
Deepwood Stalker = +3 Hide
Augment (Hard to find, harder when it's useful) = +15 Hide
71 Hide (With numbers that are probably too high and a very uncommon item)
Even with a +6 dexterity skills item (Not recommended) only at
77 Hide

77 Hide= +38 Sneak Attack Damage
Melee Power: +6 Sightless, +20 ToEE Set, +70 Blitz, +14 Tempest, +18 MP Dreadnought, +30 MP Epic Levels, +2 MP Tomes (Getting silly now)= 160 (Your numbers were a bit conservative, figured I'd go all out)
Melee Power multiplies +38 by 150% of itself; Therefore, effective increase of *2.4
38 * 2.4 = 91.2
Attacks per second base of TWF~3 (Tested loosely on my guild ship dummy with 28 BAB and Haste Boost Going)
Attacks with 58% Doublestrike (15% Fellblade or Firstblood, 9% 3 EPL, 20% Killer, 5% Perfect TWF, 9% Tempest)~4.74
Attacks with 35% Offhand Doublestrike as well(10% Perfect TWF, 25% Capstone)~5.79
Rounding up to make sure my point is proven~6 attacks per second

6(attacks per second) * 91.2 (damage per attack)= 548 DPS (Rounded the .2 up, it makes my number look scarier at the cost of good math)

Make sure to show your work, otherwise I have to write all of mine out to disprove it. Personally the hide bonus is just fine how it is, this number was calculating in everything and rounding up, as well as including some things that aren't practical. Arborea still isn't highly appealing to me personally, but when these come out I'll probably be using Plane of Water at least to start anyway for the MRR Boost and significant DPS increase.

[Blastyswa]

I don't feel this dps buff is good enough to compete with some of the others. Maybe add +1 crit threat? For monks add +1 ki regen and an additional 20% doublestrike?

Agreed that this one looks a bit weak. Doubling everything in this one would make it much more competitive.

[blerkington]

Hi,

Please avoid adding any effects which are likely to produce lag.

Invisibility guard has been a problem in the past. Some of these other effects look like they might also be problematic.

Thanks.

[Grailhawk]

70 Dexterity (Probably too high, this is with tomes and maxed out end-game gear)= +30 Hide
23 Ranks = +23 Hide
Deepwood Stalker = +3 Hide
Augment (Hard to find, harder when it's useful) = +15 Hide
71 Hide (With numbers that are probably too high and a very uncommon item)
Even with a +6 dexterity skills item (Not recommended) only at
77 Hide

77 Hide= +38 Sneak Attack Damage
Melee Power: +6 Sightless, +20 ToEE Set, +70 Blitz, +14 Tempest, +18 MP Dreadnought, +30 MP Epic Levels, +2 MP Tomes (Getting silly now)= 160 (Your numbers were a bit conservative, figured I'd go all out)
Melee Power multiplies +38 by 150% of itself; Therefore, effective increase of *2.4
38 * 2.4 = 91.2
Attacks per second base of TWF~3 (Tested loosely on my guild ship dummy with 28 BAB and Haste Boost Going)
Attacks with 58% Doublestrike (15% Fellblade or Firstblood, 9% 3 EPL, 20% Killer, 5% Perfect TWF, 9% Tempest)~4.74
Attacks with 35% Offhand Doublestrike as well(10% Perfect TWF, 25% Capstone)~5.79
Rounding up to make sure my point is proven~6 attacks per second

6(attacks per second) * 91.2 (damage per attack)= 548 DPS (Rounded the .2 up, it makes my number look scarier at the cost of good math)

Make sure to show your work, otherwise I have to write all of mine out to disprove it. Personally the hide bonus is just fine how it is, this number was calculating in everything and rounding up, as well as including some things that aren't practical. Arborea still isn't highly appealing to me personally, but when these come out I'll probably be using Plane of Water at least to start anyway for the MRR Boost and significant DPS increase.

you forgot camouflage spell, good hope, Items go up to +20, there are stalking cosmetic +3 effects, and a lot of the +1 or +2 to skill effects that will stack not counting ship buffs, or enhancements.

You are way underselling how high you can get the hide skill with out trying. My rogue has a once buffed 97 Ranger would get 107. This is with out giving up anything related to DPS.

[Krell]

***Please make sure you have read this thread first, it contains an overview of Update 29 Feats.*** (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467837-Update-29-Feats-Overview)


At level 30 you will get a choice of one Legendary Feat. These feats are stronger than most of your standard feats, and pull their power from different planes. To help round power levels in upper Epic, a lot of these feats are meant to be a little more powerful for characters that have built for versatility; most of them include parts useful to many kinds of players.







Scion of the Ethereal Plane

Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect


Very nice for assassin builds with the permanent displacement. I think the blur is a non-factor considering all the items with blur. There are also more items with lesser displacement now. Lesser displacement there would open a lot of slot options. For a non-sneaking Rouge I think the only real nice item is the sneak damage. Personally I don't think +2 skills makes much difference at the last couple levels and invisibility guard doesn't seem to keep you from getting beat on most of the time. I like the overall concept though.


Scion of the Astral Plane

+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.


Does this raise the dodge cap like Scion of the Plane of Air? I can't remember the last time I had a character that wasn't dodge capped.


Scion of Elysium

Summoned creatures gain +25 PRR and MRR
Summoned creatures gain +20 MP, RP, and USP
Summoned creatures gain +100% Fortification
Summoned creatures gain a 5% chance to ignore incoming damage entirely. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.


Niche feat but I'm sure someone will like it.


Scion of Arborea

+20 Melee and Ranged Power
+20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power
+2 to the Enhancement Bonus of your weapon
+4 to Fortitude Saves


The Arti feat? I think for most melee and ranged the +20 power is the main feature. +2 enhancement bonus is mostly a non-factor. +4 fort saves is ok.


Scion of Limbo

+2 Determination Bonus to all Saves
eight buffs, each one minute long. Cycles randomly.
[LIST]
+40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power
+16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot, +20% Spell Crit Damage
+30 PRR and MRR
+20% Dodge and +40 Healing Amp
+20 DR /Law
Your weapon/unarmed strikes and spells deal 1d20 Chaos Damage
Each time you would be damaged, you have a +5% chance to completely ignore the damage. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.
Confetti explodes around your shoulders. Festive!

I have to admit I like the randomness. Most of the individual effects are pretty good. Except for confetti which tells everyone you lose! Maybe have the chaos damage scale with melee/ranged power.



I'm glad to see a large number of feats in the lists for 29 and 30. Looking at all the new feats in their entirety, the bent seems to be more towards casters. Maybe that was the intent.

[Wulverine]

Yes, hide can go much higher.

The point though,I think, is that holymunchkin is calculating the effect meleepower has on sneak dmg wrongly.

Assuming his numbers.
7 attacks with 50 sneak dmg each = 350 dmg

He's doing 350 x 1.5 x 2.5 =1312.5

How sneakattack actually works is that the Meleepower used to scale the sneakattack dmg, is increased by 50%. So meleepower (for purposes of sneakdmg) becomes 225 (150% of 150meleepower).

What the actual dmg per second becomes =

350 x 3.25 = 1137.5

[Atremus]

Scion of Celestia

+20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+30% Crit Damage with Positive, Light, & Alignment spells
+150 Maximum Hit Points
+4 to Will Saves





Sold for my FvS!

[sjbb87]

Scion of the Astral Plane need a buff

[Kielbasa]

Astral plane double all the effects and increase the dodge cap for monks given their current state and you may give the diehard monk fans a reason to stay at cap for longer than it takes to TR.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Would this be a good time to bring up that Invisibility really needs to give the 50% miss chance that it is suppose to. (and also just makes sense)

AND/OR Invisibility guard needs to reset agro.


Currently Invisibility guard seems useless to me.

One slight possible exception being that maybe... just maybe... I could theoretically run away while invisible, sneak and lose agro.
But I am not even sure that would work either.

As far as I can tell, currently it does no good at all... and may even cause lag and therefore hurt me instead of helping.

(feel free to correct me if I am wrong)

[Blastyswa]

you forgot camouflage spell, good hope, Items go up to +20, there are stalking cosmetic +3 effects, and a lot of the +1 or +2 to skill effects that will stack not counting ship buffs, or enhancements.

You are way underselling how high you can get the hide skill with out trying. My rogue has a once buffed 97 Ranger would get 107. This is with out giving up anything related to DPS.

You're right, I forgot Greater Heroism and Camo. Only stacking cosmetic I can think of is spider cult mask, others are competence and non stacking. Equipping a +20 item would likely require sacrificing more DPS or survivability than would be gained by 5 hide, and I included deepwood stalkers skill effect, ship buff I did forget.
So let's say in total you do manage to get 100 Hide. Sneak Attack increases by 12 from my number, *2.4 is 28.8, * 6 is 173 extra damage, putting total DPS increase at around 700. My point still stands that the original poster had significantly boosted numbers, and if you provide a breakdown on where you're slotting a +20 item and a +6 insightful dexterity skills bonus I'm fairly certain I can point out how it's dropping DPS or survivability (Greensteel would be effective for +6 insightful dexterity skills and probably is the best option to include this).

[Wulverine]

You're right, I forgot Greater Heroism and Camo. Only stacking cosmetic I can think of is spider cult mask, others are competence and non stacking. Equipping a +20 item would likely require sacrificing more DPS or survivability than would be gained by 5 hide, and I included deepwood stalkers skill effect, ship buff I did forget.
So let's say in total you do manage to get 100 Hide. Sneak Attack increases by 12 from my number, *2.4 is 28.8, * 6 is 173 extra damage, putting total DPS increase at around 700. My point still stands that the original poster had significantly boosted numbers, and if you provide a breakdown on where you're slotting a +20 item and a +6 insightful dexterity skills bonus I'm fairly certain I can point out how it's dropping DPS or survivability (Greensteel would be effective for +6 insightful dexterity skills and probably is the best option to include this).

You forgot a lot more then GH and Camo... :)
+2 Completionist
+5 Skill Tome
+10 From epic levels
There's probably a couple more i cant think of off the top of my head, without sacrificing DPS

I agree that a +20item and 6insightfull DEX skills items would not be wise.

Edit:
I dont have a TWF character right now so i am unsure of the amount of attacks you can get per second. Using your 6 attacks per second would be:
100 Hide = +50 sneak dmg. For 6 attacks that's 300 dmg.
Assuming 160 melee power (your number, but probably fairly attainable considering we haven't seen the new raid loot yet).
300 x 3.4 (240melee power total) = 1020 DPS added by this feat.

If holymunchkin can indeed squeeze out 7 attacks:
350 x 3.4 = 1190.


Whatever the case, 1k+ DPS booster on sneakattackable mobs is huge and makes this feat very very attractive for a couple of builds :)

[Grailhawk]

You're right, I forgot Greater Heroism and Camo. Only stacking cosmetic I can think of is spider cult mask, others are competence and non stacking. Equipping a +20 item would likely require sacrificing more DPS or survivability than would be gained by 5 hide, and I included deepwood stalkers skill effect, ship buff I did forget.
So let's say in total you do manage to get 100 Hide. Sneak Attack increases by 12 from my number, *2.4 is 28.8, * 6 is 173 extra damage, putting total DPS increase at around 700. My point still stands that the original poster had significantly boosted numbers, and if you provide a breakdown on where you're slotting a +20 item and a +6 insightful dexterity skills bonus I'm fairly certain I can point out how it's dropping DPS or survivability (Greensteel would be effective for +6 insightful dexterity skills and probably is the best option to include this).

Your attack speed is also a bit low though. TWF at bab 20 has 133.3 swings per minute hast boost and haste (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144) (swings not attacks so at 100% off hand proc that's 266 attacks per minute).

133*1.58 + 133*1.35
133.3( 2.93)
390.56 attacks per minute
6.51 attacks per second

50 Sneak attack damage
160 Melee Power (@150% = 240) (melee power multiplier is (100+240)/100 = 3.4)

50*3.4 = 170 damage per hit after applying 160 melee power at 150% scaling

6.51 Attacks per second
170 * 6.51 = 1106.61 DPS

4.99 Attacks per second (haste only no Haste boost 102.2* 2.93 = 299.45/60 = 4.99)
170 * 4.99 = 848.30 DPS

[Holymunchkin]

Ty for clarifying the difference Grail. Ty for pointin' that out wulv

[Grailhawk]

Ty for clarifying the difference Grail. Ty for pointin' that out wulv

To get close to 7 aps you need to start factoring 20% hast from Madstone boots.

At BAB 30 (note there is some extrapolation her on my part its not 100% accurate like vanishes numbers at 20 BAB are) With 50% hast and the 58%/35% DS we get to 6.95 attacks per second.

@20 BAB 0% Haste Swings = 86.7
@30 BAB 0% Haste Swings = 89.05 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144-Vanshilar-s-Attack-Speed-Index-and-Formulae?p=4589650&viewfull=1#post4589650)

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Scion of the Astral Plane need a buff


Astral plane double all the effects and increase the dodge cap for monks given their current state and you may give the diehard monk fans a reason to stay at cap for longer than it takes to TR.

you mean 16% double strike isnt enough? you mean 32% wouldnt be too much? just stop.

[Kielbasa]

you mean 16% double strike isnt enough? you mean 32% wouldnt be too much? just stop.

Pretty sure You misread the original post and misread mine. Was only suggesting 8 for everything when centered plus a dodge cap increase.

[Blastyswa]

Whatever the case, 1k+ DPS booster on sneakattackable mobs is huge and makes this feat very very attractive for a couple of builds :)

Agreed. As a ranger booster feat though, I think it's fine to leave as is unless actual in-game testing shows it to be giving too much power to rangers. Have to keep in mind that everyone will be getting one of these feats, so it'll be a comparison of several hundred damage and some defense bonuses vs. the hide sneak damage.

[sjbb87]

you mean 16% double strike isnt enough? you mean 32% wouldnt be too much? just stop.

16 where?

Scion of the Astral Plane
+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.

i see 4 here... and 8 to monks/kensei maybe change this feat to:

Scion of the Astral Plane
+8 to Tactical Feat DCs
+8% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+8% Dodge.
+8 to Reflex Saves.

[Blastyswa]

Your attack speed is also a bit low though. TWF at bab 20 has 133.3 swings per minute hast boost and haste (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144) (swings not attacks so at 100% off hand proc that's 266 attacks per minute).

133*1.58 + 133*1.35
133.3( 2.93)
390.56 attacks per minute
6.51 attacks per second

50 Sneak attack damage
160 Melee Power (@150% = 240) (melee power multiplier is (100+240)/100 = 3.4)

50*3.4 = 170 damage per hit after applying 160 melee power at 150% scaling

6.51 Attacks per second
170 * 6.51 = 1106.61 DPS

4.99 Attacks per second (haste only no Haste boost 102.2* 2.93 = 299.45/60 = 4.99)
170 * 4.99 = 848.30 DPS

Thanks for having good work to back it up, makes it a lot easier to agree with you. I did my attack speed calculations myself immediately before posting, so I'm not too surprised other testing showed it to be a little different. I made a mistake in my initial melee power multiplication, your numbers are more accurate.
I would still say that the ability is fine as is, since camoflauge is needed to achieve such high hide relegating it mainly to a position as a very good ability for rangers, and additionally due to the fact this DPS amount is in comparison to the DPS amounts gained by 20 Melee/Ranged Power or 2d20 Elemental Damage scaling with spellpower.

[maddong]

In general looks great!

[Astarii]

It would be nice for Scion of Elysium to have Creature Regeneration or Vampirism, its always a pain to heal up those creatures. Perhaps even double there summon times? Since its time sensitive.
or Maybe provide a new summons that will work in epics.
-----
For some of the others it would be also nice if on the others there was some way to have a 5% (or some percent) to automatically land you spell (bypassing the DC checks, Saves, SP, MRR etc.) OR even have some SP Regeneration finally...
-----
btw, Air & Water seems a little weak compared to the others for spell casters; But overall it seems like casters get a bigger / better boost them melees (guess I will just have to try them out and see)

[Darkrok]

Invisibility guard needs to reset agro.

I can't resist this...

"There is no agro reset." :)

[Saekee]

Does the sneak attack damage of Scion of the Ethereal Plane work on ranks of hide, points spent in hide, or your hide score?

key question right here.
Already INT assassins are behind; this is the death knell (am fine with dex assassins, just saying)

In general I find all these changes to be problematic power creep for players.

[alancarp]

All of these new feats are pretty stout, but the clerics could really use a little love in one specific area: turn undead.

Something... somewhere in this large list... should help them out.

> Master of the Undead: Your turn dice are increased by 12, which stacks with all other turn dice enhancements.
> Scion of Khyber: AOE effect. All nearby undead are destroyed. 3 minute cooldown.

That would be helpful.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Pretty sure You misread the original post and misread mine. Was only suggesting 8 for everything when centered plus a dodge cap increase.


16 where?

+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.


unarmed monks get doublestrike to offhand. so when 8% is written, it pretty much means it is being balanced as 16%. which i think is a pretty huge dps buff for monks seeing as they can already get high double strike.

doubling the bonuses (+8% dstrike +8% dstrike) would result in +16% double strike, or 32% for unarmed monks.

[SirValentine]

I see options for boosting DCs of 3 schools, Necro, Evo, and Conj.

There any plans to help out other schools, too?

I could argue that Evo & Conj, in particular, needed more help the least, since they already have a couple ways to get higher DC not available to other schools. (Draconic Precise, and Sorc/Clr PLs.)

[Basura_Grande]

Scion of Arborea

+20 Melee and Ranged Power
+20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power
+2 to the Enhancement Bonus of your weapon
+4 to Fortitude Saves




Does this break Celestia? If so can you give us a version that loses what I've put in bold?

[nibel]

One slight possible exception being that maybe... just maybe... I could theoretically run away while invisible, sneak and lose agro.
But I am not even sure that would work either.

Just a quick irrelevant note... it is possible to do this. I've done it more than once on my melee assassin.

[Qezuzu]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane is so far ahead of all the other feats for Rangers and Rogues it's not even funny.

Like that Scion of the Plane of Earth; +20 PRR is very appealing for a Rogue, but doing some quick math the 2d20 damage will only be doing about 80 on average after spellpower AND it can be resisted. Compare that to ~150 sneak attack damage.

Scion of Mechanus... great self-healing for any Warforged without the cost of AP. A Warforged Rogue with much better self heals?? But, 150 sneak attack damage. Scion of Arborea... I don't have to do the math that show that 20 MP won't give you 150 damage.

I seriously can't think of a reason to pick anything besides Ethereal Plane. I mean, that's not horrible, but just... how boring.

But I guess, ignoring that feat, I am about 90% certain Scion of the Plane of Earth would be the best for a Rogue and I'd just use nothing but that anyway.

At any rate, I bet it would make Barbarians take a serious look at taking points of hide (realistic hide score for classes without hide and dex would be what, 70?) I'll be carrying around a stack of Camouflage scrolls to increase my damage and begging Druids for a Spiderskin buff. To avoid some of this silliness, maybe make it a fixed amount of SA damage? Like, 10d6 or something? Tying DPS to a skill has some... bizarre implications.

[Ayseifn]

Scion of the Ethereal Planes seems alright as is, probably the best offensively for rogues/monks/rangers but other builds should get more out of others especially if they don't use Legendary Dreadnought. LD is more of a problem than Ethereal Planes here.

Defensively it's pretty weak, I already have a lot of displace clickies and never liked invis guard so it'll add nothing really.

[MonadRebelion]

Scion of limbo is very cool. Love the way you're thinking on that one.

Scion of Celestia is obnoxious. It is clearly aimed at divines. Giving divines more healing spell power is pointless. Trade the healing spell power for fire spell power or bonuses to evocation, necro, or conjuration DCs. That would be useful to a divine caster. Divine casters already have more than enough healing spell power. Putting +20 healing spell power on this feat is as much an incentive for a divine caster as putting +20 swim bonus on it. It's essentially a non-bonus.

[Ayseifn]

Scion of limbo is very cool. Love the way you're thinking on that one.

Scion of Celestia is obnoxious. It is clearly aimed at divines. Giving divines more healing spell power is pointless. Trade the healing spell power for fire spell power or bonuses to evocation, necro, or conjuration DCs. That would be useful to a divine caster. Divine casters already have more than enough healing spell power. Putting +20 healing spell power on this feat is as much an incentive for a divine caster as putting +20 swim bonus on it. It's essentially a non-bonus.

Adding 2D20 light damage would be nice here, then the 20 healing spell power might make some sense.

[draven1]

I'll be carrying around a stack of Camouflage scrolls to increase my damage and begging Druids for a Spiderskin buff. To avoid some of this silliness, maybe make it a fixed amount of SA damage? Like, 10d6 or something? Tying DPS to a skill has some... bizarre implications.

Did you try that Camouflage scroll? It lasts 1 min.
Will you really cast that scroll for +5 situaltional, non crittable damage for every 1 min? :D

I think current Scion of the Ethereal Planes is very proper for sneaky types, almost No additional defense benefits(most people already have semi-permanent displacement from multiple shroud clicky), but deadly damage. "Squishy, but deadly."
Anyway you can get damage from other feats whether you have aggro or not, but, sneak attack uptime IS NOT 100% even if you are very skilled assassin.

It's SITUATIONALLY USEFUL for most people. And it encourages using some player skills(to get SA up-time higher, you need aggro management) rather than facerolling with multiple past life & gears.

ps> stacking passive 10% incorporeality for Scion of the Ethereal Planes would be nice, current defensive benefits are useless for most builds.

How about replacing "Invisibility Guard" with "Dark Discorporation guard"? Current invisibility guard is also useless. When it proc, mobs still can see player ALWAYS. Dark Discorporation has very similiar effect & flavor but, has better defense part.
No warlock use Dark Discorporation, but, if it is from guard effect, sneaky types will LOVE it :D
Making lasting dark discorporation for 5 sec after attack or interaction would be nice, too.

[BigErkyKid]

[B]


Scion of the Ethereal Plane
[LIST]
Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect





Is the permanent displacement whole sneaking useful at all? Honest question.

[Bobby88888]

All up I am not in the least excited for any of these feats. Only 1 of them is useful for my main and it is a boring feat that just straight up adds flat damage. In fact I would say I am disappointed with them overall, nothing jumps out at me as cool or heaps exciting for my builds, useful? sure but none of them make me go "OOOOOOHHHHHHH GIMMIE!!!"
I do however like the theme you have gone with here.

Scion of the plane of air
- The doge bonus isn't much use without mdb raise too in most cases.

Scion of the Ethereal plane
-Most people already have perma blur with with many many items granting it, just doesn't feel worth of a legendary feat and isn't overly useful.
-Displacement while sneaking. Totally useless. Even being missed in stealth breaks sneak and then you loose displacement.
- +1 SA damage per 2 points of hide you have. I am going to work under the assumption that this is the hide value shown on character sheet.
- +2 to all skills. Relatively useless but its better than the perma blur.
- Invis guard. What is the point of this ability anyway??? Scrap it and put something useful in. stacking incorp maybe? its in the same vein as the invis guard.
At lvl 30 my rogue will have 132 hide in current set up without any changes in buffs, gear or feats/enhancements for 66 damage pre MP. Assuming 100 MP (MtF or action boost up to get it this high) nets us 165 dmg per swing. Ofc MP values are bound to go up with the cap raise. The hide score can easily be boosted to for a bit more.
This feat basically just gives your sneaky types a decent buff to SA dmg and that's it. Its not that bad overall due to the dmg buff but that ability is the only 1 worth having on it. The others don't add anything and seem, to just be there to make it look bigger. But just a strait buff to dmg while effective is boring.
Most people look to be approaching this from a ranger perspective but remember that there are still some people left playing rogues...

Scion of the Astral Plane
- The Doublestrike bonus seems a little small and the dodge bonus really should at least have max dodge and maybe mdb with it too.

Scion of Celestia
Because Enlightened spirit warlocks really need access to this (is it the best one for them? idk haven't looked and not likely to any time soon) On the other hand fvs/clerics really do need access to this.

Scion of Elysium
-good to see this getting some support but might not be enough.

Scion of limbo
-Well this is cool but not all that great imo, ymmv.
-20 dodge isnt that good (if your not at your cap already by this lvl you dont want to rely on this to get u there being short term)
-You dont want that PRR some of the time, you want it when your getting hit. Which is usually always.
-All up fun but not overly useful.

I'm fairly ambivalent on the rest.

The only one that I feel needs a lot of work still is the Ethereal Plane, the rest can just use tweaks and brush ups while it could use 2-3 of its abilities redone with the possibility of scraping it and starting again. Coincedently it is also the only one that offers anything even remotely useful to me but it is also the one needing the most (or not such a coincidence, maybe i'm biased but 2 of its abilities are junk as presented and another isn't much better with the 4th being boring, more so since it is the only benefit.
Scion of the Ethereal Plane
- Ok we can work with the concealment property here. Bump it up. who cares about 20% conceal. Everyone already has at least 1 item giving this, there are wands galore to cast it. Its not uncommon that I end up with 3 or even more copies of this on me at once. Displace is junk as outlined above. How about we give perma conceal of 35-40% and give 70-80% when you leave sneak for X seconds? That 70-80% feels a bit high but its gotta be a decent bit above the static bonus otherwise who cares and 60-65% feels like that. But we don't want to get too far ahead of displacement either.
-The SA dmg from hide can remain how it is. It will give my rogue a little dps boost but still leave me fairly low in the pecking order, id say it could use more but rangers are too high already. So what then if we changed it to something that benefits rogues more than rangers but still useful to rangers. SA crits! maybe 19-20 x2 with potential for feats (imp crit and overwhelming crit) to add to it (+1 or 2 range and +1 multiplier on 19-20 respectively). Much more work though I would guess and it seems you guys really dont want to let SA dmg crit, but with rogues having more SA they scale more from it who need it more than the rangers.
- +2 skills. Ok I dunno what to do with this. If other things r too powerful than sure leave it here to make your 4th dot point, that is its only purpose really.
-Invisibility guard should go. Marginally useful vs ranged/casters but most things can still see you fine and if you need that to hide then why are you hiding. Maybe some stacking incorp, only a small amount, its in line thematically and all i can think of other than when you sneak you are also invisible but that does't seem very useful specially if the hide score dictates SA dmg bonus.

Bit strong now maybe but nowhere near as boring. But numbers can easily be adjusted to suit power levels but keep in mind why I set some numbers where I did.

my 2 cp anyway.

[slarden]

I see options for boosting DCs of 3 schools, Necro, Evo, and Conj.

There any plans to help out other schools, too?

I could argue that Evo & Conj, in particular, needed more help the least, since they already have a couple ways to get higher DC not available to other schools. (Draconic Precise, and Sorc/Clr PLs.)

This is a good point.

Enchantment is included in Scion of the Feywild.

I would think combining the remaining schools with the legendary feats that already have DC boosters might be a good way to do this.

Include Illusion with Scion of the Feywild. Transmutation would fit in well with Conjuration, etc.

[alancarp]

Adding 2D20 light damage would be nice here, then the 20 healing spell power might make some sense.

They kinda did with these:
+20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+30% Crit Damage with Positive, Light, & Alignment spells

That pretty well takes care of the divines... notwithstanding that turn undead is going to be of very limited use (though the highest level quest with significant undead is currently the Jibbers quest in Epic 3BC). If we could either combine my 'Scion of Khyber' idea to the Scion of Celestia -or- add the feat separately, then I'd think we clerics would be good to go.

[FuryFlash]

Would this be a good time to bring up that Invisibility really needs to give the 50% miss chance that it is suppose to. (and also just makes sense)

AND/OR Invisibility guard needs to reset agro.


Currently Invisibility guard seems useless to me.

One slight possible exception being that maybe... just maybe... I could theoretically run away while invisible, sneak and lose agro.
But I am not even sure that would work either.

As far as I can tell, currently it does no good at all... and may even cause lag and therefore hurt me instead of helping.

(feel free to correct me if I am wrong)

I'm currently using an invisibility guard on my rogue, and if you didn't know, the invisibility is unbreakable (even if attacking) AND it resets all aggro you have at the time. On it's own, this is useless for soloing (great for shedding aggro in a party), but if you sneak and run a ways, you will be completely concealed and aggro reset. I use it all the time in my static group and it's incredibly useful.

[biglou]

Scion of the Plane of Earth

+4 to the DCs of Conjuration spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
+20 PRR
+10 Acid Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
Add 2d20 Acid damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)



How will this work with eldritch blast for a warlock will they only get the spell power or will the 2d20 acid be attacked to the blast same as a sword or bow

[HatsuharuZ]

These feats mention things like "+2 to the DCs of other spells". So what counts as a spell? SLAs? Rune-arms? Monk enhancements and finishing moves?

[Hipparan]

I like the abilities for the different elemental planes, but I think they could use a little bit of changing. Scion of the Plane of Fire is awesome with the spell crit damage, but I wish that that particular ability would go with the other elements as well.

Warlocks:

I feel that the Scion of the Plane of Fire would be overpowered for fiend pact warlocks, who would get extra spell crit damage from the Tainted Scholar tree, plus the awesome spellpower bonus and extra PRR and MRR.

However, the Scion of the Plane of Earth would be very nice for Great Old One pact warlocks, as the conjuration boosts the DC for tentacles by 4. The PRR bonus is nice too.

Scion of the Feywild is pretty nice for fey warlocks, since they get the enchantment bonus for their dancing balls. However, there is no PRR or MRR bonus, making fey warlocks not quite as appealing.

Overall, I think that these feats make fiend pact warlocks superior to the other pacts in the eldritch blast department. For Enlightened Spirits, the Scion of Celestia will probably be the most appealing feat.

Sorcerers:

Air Savants have difficulty (or so I have heard) with hitting evading enemies on epic quests with their electricity spells. I am not sure how much the +4 evocation DC will boost Air Savants, but I have a feeling it won't be much. In addition, the +4 dodge bonus seems a little low, and I am not sure how much dodge you can get on a sorcerer. It looks like Scion of the Plane of Air isn't all that great for air savants as compared to the other savants with their respective elemental plane feats.

Earth Savants use conjuration for most of their acid spells, so I think the conjuration DC bonus from the Scion of the Plane of Earth works. Once again though, not sure how acid blast will be against enemies that evade on EE difficulty, even with the DC boost. +20 PRR is nice, especially since sorcerers need all of the defense they can get when they grab aggro. Scion of the Plane of Earth looks pretty good here.

Water Savants would most likely use the Scion of the Plane of Water feat. It seems pretty good. The +20 MRR is nice, but I am not sure how much +200 spellpoints matters when sorcerers at level 28 are getting between 3000 and 4000 spellpoints (depending on how the build is).

Fire Savants would definitely use the Scion of the Plane of Fire feat. This feat is awesome. It gives extra spell crit damage, which is amazing for sorcerers. Also, this feat gives both PRR and MRR, although only +10 to each compared to the +20 PRR from Earth and +20 MRR from Water.

Overall, the Scion of the Plane of Fire feat seems overpowered compared to the other feats. I currently have a level 11 Air Savant, and I will give him the Scion of the Plane of Fire feat if there are no changes to the feats. I would even give this feat to a water savant if I had one, because the +10 spellpower that I would be losing for ice of electric spells is just nothing compared to +25% crit damage with ALL spells. I love flavor builds, but the idea of a water, earth, or air savant being a Scion of the Plane of Fire leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I would also recommend perhaps giving the extra elemental damage to spells as well (yes I know people would be spamming magic missiles if this was the case, but perhaps it could be coded to be once per second or something).

[Hipparan]

Scion of the Plane of Earth

+4 to the DCs of Conjuration spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
+20 PRR
+10 Acid Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
Add 2d20 Acid damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)



How will this work with eldritch blast for a warlock will they only get the spell power or will the 2d20 acid be attacked to the blast same as a sword or bow

The way that this is worded, the 2d20 damage will only be added for melee or ranged damage, since eldritch blasts count as spells.

[Steelstar]

Some nice options :-)

Limbo looks fun, question; about Limbo;
* do I have to cast the buff each minute?
* or cast it once and it cycles?
* or is it a passive that cycles automatically?

Mechanus allows a BF to free up alot of racial AP, also gives a FTP warforged (non caster) reconstruct at 30 :p

Scion of Limbo is a passive that cycles automatically.


Does the sneak attack damage of Scion of the Ethereal Plane work on ranks of hide, points spent in hide, or your hide score?

It is currently based on your full Hide score. I see a lot of number-crunching going on in this thread, which is good. If it's too strong, we can adjust that.


Scion of the Shadowfell
+4 to the DCs of Necromancy spells, +2 to DCs of other spells
+40 Negative Spell Power
+20 Negative Amp (assuming you take healing from Negative)
Weapon and Unarmed attacks heal you for 1d6 Positive damage, or 1d6 Negative damage if you are Undead.

Why not 30 Universal Spell Power and 10 negative like the others?

It could be. Why should it be like the others?


I don't feel this dps buff is good enough to compete with some of the others. Maybe add +1 crit threat? For monks add +1 ki regen and an additional 20% doublestrike?
It is very intentional that not every feat is on an even keel in terms of DPS. Is the overall feat good enough to compete with the others?


It would be nice for Scion of Elysium to have Creature Regeneration or Vampirism, its always a pain to heal up those creatures. Perhaps even double there summon times? Since its time sensitive.
or Maybe provide a new summons that will work in epics.


Between the new base-epic-level bonuses to Summons (which everyone will have), Epic Augment Summoning, and Scion of Elysium, there are a lot of new buffs for summoned creatures in this update. We'll be keeping an eye on them overall. These bonuses certainly don't fix every issue that summons/hires/pets have, but they are meant to help them.



In general I find all these changes to be problematic power creep for players.

This increase in power comes with a level cap increase. It would be bad if it didn't increase the power level.


I see options for boosting DCs of 3 schools, Necro, Evo, and Conj.

There any plans to help out other schools, too?

I could argue that Evo & Conj, in particular, needed more help the least, since they already have a couple ways to get higher DC not available to other schools. (Draconic Precise, and Sorc/Clr PLs.)

Every school gets at least a +2 DC boost when taking those feats. Evocation, Conjuration and Necromancy were chosen for those feats due to having related schools, and that a very large portion of offensive spellcasting relies on those schools, but every school is getting a significant buff to DCs in this update, provided you spec for it.


I'm currently using an invisibility guard on my rogue, and if you didn't know, the invisibility is unbreakable (even if attacking) AND it resets all aggro you have at the time. On it's own, this is useless for soloing (great for shedding aggro in a party), but if you sneak and run a ways, you will be completely concealed and aggro reset. I use it all the time in my static group and it's incredibly useful.

Bingo.

[Elfishski]

My first impression was that this is an interesting list where the different feats have something for a few different types of build but on a second look...

These are all just straight power increases for characters to be better at whatever they're already excellent at doing. They don't really add new options, they just add (a LOT) of extra power creep.

These feats just help cement a situation where all current content becomes completely irrelevant to a level 30 character. Even if Legendary quests require these sorts of buffs, there will only be a handful of them to begin with, so why work so hard to make every other quest in the game more irrelevant (including the already easy for a decent party on EE level 30 raids)?

My suggestion would be to throw these legendary feats out entirely, and move the level 29 feats to level 30 where they would logically be following the previous progression - the proposed level 29 feats (aside from the boring law/chaos ones which are straight bonus DPS and the stunning one which is too powerful unless the timer is really long) are much more interesting and would add variety and options. Personally speaking, these legendary feats would just make me more bored with any character at level 30.

I'd also remove all the bonus and unnecessary melee power, ranged power, and now spell power at each epic level, but keep the spell point discount. They didn't add any options to the 'dead' levels, just more power, which isn't exciting.

[slarden]

My first impression was that this is an interesting list where the different feats have something for a few different types of build but on a second look...

These are all just straight power increases for characters to be better at whatever they're already excellent at doing. They don't really add new options, they just add (a LOT) of extra power creep.

These feats just help cement a situation where all current content becomes completely irrelevant to a level 30 character. Even if Legendary quests require these sorts of buffs, there will only be a handful of them to begin with, so why work so hard to make every other quest in the game more irrelevant (including the already easy for a decent party on EE level 30 raids)?

My suggestion would be to throw these legendary feats out entirely, and move the level 29 feats to level 30 where they would logically be following the previous progression - the proposed level 29 feats (aside from the boring law/chaos ones which are straight bonus DPS and the stunning one which is too powerful unless the timer is really long) are much more interesting and would add variety and options. Personally speaking, these legendary feats would just make me more bored with any character at level 30.

I'd also remove all the bonus and unnecessary melee power, ranged power, and now spell power at each epic level, but keep the spell point discount. They didn't add any options to the 'dead' levels, just more power, which isn't exciting.

I think it's too early to say that until we understand what the difficulty is like on Legendary Elite.

It would be expected that lower level quests get easier with more levels added - the real test is whether this power buff is too much for the new content.

[slarden]

It could be. Why should it be like the others?



Because alot of builds that care about necromancy DC don't care much about negative spell power. Negative spellpower is mainly a pale master thing. I would suggest a split between negative spell power and universal spell power.

[count_spicoli]

My first impression was that this is an interesting list where the different feats have something for a few different types of build but on a second look...

These are all just straight power increases for characters to be better at whatever they're already excellent at doing. They don't really add new options, they just add (a LOT) of extra power creep.

These feats just help cement a situation where all current content becomes completely irrelevant to a level 30 character. Even if Legendary quests require these sorts of buffs, there will only be a handful of them to begin with, so why work so hard to make every other quest in the game more irrelevant (including the already easy for a decent party on EE level 30 raids)?

My suggestion would be to throw these legendary feats out entirely, and move the level 29 feats to level 30 where they would logically be following the previous progression - the proposed level 29 feats (aside from the boring law/chaos ones which are straight bonus DPS and the stunning one which is too powerful unless the timer is really long) are much more interesting and would add variety and options. Personally speaking, these legendary feats would just make me more bored with any character at level 30.

I'd also remove all the bonus and unnecessary melee power, ranged power, and now spell power at each epic level, but keep the spell point discount. They didn't add any options to the 'dead' levels, just more power, which isn't exciting.

Hopefully the level 30+ content is excrucationally difficult from monsters to traps to everything so these feats with a maxxed out char will be needed to be effective. And my initial reaction was to say that any quest below 30 with a 30 level char in it should take a big xp hit but that would limit the number of lfms for capped chars and there already is a shortage of lfms for capped chars. Not sure what the solution is here unless they plan on putting out so much 30+ content that we can just binge on it. But i do like the options they have provided and could make for some interesting choices.

[Atremus]

My suggestion would be to throw these legendary feats out entirely, and move the level 29 feats to level 30 where they would logically be following the previous progression - the proposed level 29 feats (aside from the boring law/chaos ones which are straight bonus DPS and the stunning one which is too powerful unless the timer is really long) are much more interesting and would add variety and options. Personally speaking, these legendary feats would just make me more bored with any character at level 30.

I'd also remove all the bonus and unnecessary melee power, ranged power, and now spell power at each epic level, but keep the spell point discount. They didn't add any options to the 'dead' levels, just more power, which isn't exciting.


Um.... NO

[HastyPudding]

My first impression was that this is an interesting list where the different feats have something for a few different types of build but on a second look...

These are all just straight power increases for characters to be better at whatever they're already excellent at doing. They don't really add new options, they just add (a LOT) of extra power creep.

These feats just help cement a situation where all current content becomes completely irrelevant to a level 30 character. Even if Legendary quests require these sorts of buffs, there will only be a handful of them to begin with, so why work so hard to make every other quest in the game more irrelevant (including the already easy for a decent party on EE level 30 raids)?

My suggestion would be to throw these legendary feats out entirely, and move the level 29 feats to level 30 where they would logically be following the previous progression - the proposed level 29 feats (aside from the boring law/chaos ones which are straight bonus DPS and the stunning one which is too powerful unless the timer is really long) are much more interesting and would add variety and options. Personally speaking, these legendary feats would just make me more bored with any character at level 30.

I'd also remove all the bonus and unnecessary melee power, ranged power, and now spell power at each epic level, but keep the spell point discount. They didn't add any options to the 'dead' levels, just more power, which isn't exciting.

Judging from the power of these feats, I think it's a step in the right direction. We're going to start having REAL end-game content now that the official cap is 30 for the foreseeable future. That means harder quests, legendary raids, and the devs are probably going to pull out all the stops to make things difficult to scale with these feats. In addition, there's still reaper difficulty on the horizon, which the devs have stated is going to be intentionally brutal and difficult even for the top 5%.

Also note that the majority of these new feats (including epic destiny, level 21/24/27/30 epic feats, as well as legendary feats) are designed with spellcasters in mind, who have fallen behind in the past year. While we're probably not going to get an uber class revamp for wizards and sorcerers (let's face it, they just need some touch ups, not a full pass) this is a push in the right direction to help balance the playing field which is currently dominated by melee and ranged builds.

On the feats themselves, I love them. They give good caster bonuses (like dc's, spell critical damage, and spellpower) while still giving bonuses that any melee/ranged class might look at "who cares about that spell critical damage but wow, I can get even more dodge from that feat, or I can get some nice healing amp from that one, or some much-needed MRR from that one." all packaged with elemental damage on their auto-attacks.

[TPICKRELL]

It is very intentional that not every feat is on an even keel in terms of DPS. Is the overall feat good enough to compete with the others?


I don't think it is good enough to compete.

I play mostly unarmed and this was the one that caught my attention due to the kicker for centered.

But looking at it a bit more closely, it appears to be about 70% less damage than the other feats due to the others scaling with spell power. Unless I'm missing something my monks are going to have quite a lot more spell power than melee power and could easily slot an augment to get a lot more.

I typically use stunner builds, so +4 tactics looks nice, but my DCs are already good enough for 95% of content and there are more than average number of red names in the 5% so this is a very nice kicker in a very limited situation. I might be able take this and then free up other resources that are invested in stun dc so there may be some as yet unidentified trickle down benefits possible,

+4% dodge is nice but I'm already dodge capped on all of my monk based toons so unless you add 4% to max dodge, the only possible benefit is finding some other investment in dodge that can be reallocated.

Given the long delays in addressing handwraps/unarmed, I had really hoped that you were going to throw unarmed a small bump somewhere in this mass of changes, but I'm not seeing it.

[Steve_Howe]

Scion of the Astral Plane

+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.





Would this also add to the Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm DCs?

[CThruTheEgo]

It is currently based on your full Hide score. I see a lot of number-crunching going on in this thread, which is good. If it's too strong, we can adjust that.

I don't think it is too strong. I'm thinking about how my assassin (link in sig) would benefit from the +20 melee power feat. Assassins do a lot of sneak attack damage inherently, which is affected by 1.5x melee power. Coupled with the extra melee power to base damage, rough math indicates they are comparable. The bonus to base damage would probably pull the melee power feat ahead a bit, but the sneak attack feat has greater defensive benefit (or could, if the displacement is made to last for a time after coming out of sneak mode). So overall, this seems well balanced.

EDIT: I'm considering this for my specific build only. Not sure how they compare on a ranger, for example, who does a lot less sneak attack damage, and therefore may not benefit as much from the +20 melee power. But they do have higher base damage, so they get more benefit out of the melee power in that regard.

[CThruTheEgo]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane

Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect


I'm still catching up on the dev tracker, so not sure if this has been addressed yet by a dev, but I agree with a few other comments that the displacement needs to last for a time after coming out of sneak mode, otherwise it's kinda pointless. The whole point of sneaking is to avoid any attention whatsoever, because even a missed attack will still pull you out of sneak mode (which doesn't make sense imo), so what good does it do you to be displaced only while sneaking. Make the displacement effect remain for 10 seconds after coming out of sneak mode. That's the same duration as measure the foe, so there's less micromanagement of buffs by those who want to maximize their potential.

[Iriale]

It could be. Why should it be like the others?


It is very intentional that not every feat is on an even keel in terms of DPS. Is the overall feat good enough to compete with the others?



Every school gets at least a +2 DC boost when taking those feats. Evocation, Conjuration and Necromancy were chosen for those feats due to having related schools, and that a very large portion of offensive spellcasting relies on those schools, but every school is getting a significant buff to DCs in this update, provided you spec for it.



Bingo.
Because a DC caster needs spell dps. Do you realize that there are currently a serious problem with the DC casters not being able to get spell DPS and spell DC, and also a huge difference between your school of specialization and the others? This necro feat aggravates the chronic lack of dps of pale masters. And yes, they need dps thanks to all the immunities that exist to their school. Not only there are monsters immune by D&D lore, epic ward and champions are bloated with crazy immunities. Weapon dps is universal, spells are not universal. Spells do not work against all because you, designers, have plagued the epic game with immunities.

You need to reduce the differences between different schools; in the DC field, these feats are good designed: specilization and general bonus (although the gap is so huge before this level that needs to be fixed). But DC builds should not need to invest everything in DC and have a so pathetic dps, because this is only a source of frustration. You need dps, in this game the dps is the most important thing. Because there are too many mobs that only can to be killed with dps (I guess that DoJ is your way of reminding us this important fact, right? lol). Think, Steel, because these, along with bloated bosses and immunities, are the reasons why the epic game is so frustrating now for spellcasters (and definitely unfun)

Could we ever get a spellcasting *epic* feat that is not an ultra-specialization? If these feats are legendary, why we can not get the spell damage and spell DC in only a feat?

Spell Critical Damage with ALL spells should be part of ALL spellcasting feats, not only of the Scion of the Plane of Fire. Why you relate the plane of fire, and only the plane of fire, with the damage of all spells, all schools? Ridiculous. Give options of DC and damage to all feats, with a slight specialization by the lore of the feat. But enough of ultraespecializacions!

Please, with this feats give us a slight specialization and a steady general up. Epic magic, in this state of game, needs a wider use of our spellbook and less specialization. I'm sick of specialization. What good is that my class give me access to many spells, if in the end I can only use three?

[Vooduspyce]

I like the themes here, it's a pretty cool list. I was hoping for an option that was more tanky.

[Holymunchkin]

...
It is currently based on your full Hide score. I see a lot of number-crunching going on in this thread, which is good. If it's too strong, we can adjust that.
...
It [tactical lvl 30 legendary feat] is very intentional that not every feat is on an even keel in terms of DPS. Is the overall feat good enough to compete with the others?
...


I don't feel that the tactical 30feat is very competitive. If it decreased the cooldown on EIN by a minute maybe. I don't know. With KTA a GMoF monk can reach mid 60's on QP DC. With new goggles the ability is spammable; however, having played it recently I feel that DC monks are underwhelming in current meta. The game is too fast for their abilities to be useful. They are single target spells basically (with the exception of EIN).

Doubling the doublestrike bonus is something I would do for sure.

[Basura_Grande]

It is currently based on your full Hide score. I see a lot of number-crunching going on in this thread, which is good. If it's too strong, we can adjust that.

A flat number would be easier to balance. Maybe a flat number of 25 or 30?

[Grailhawk]

You're right, I forgot Greater Heroism and Camo. Only stacking cosmetic I can think of is spider cult mask, others are competence and non stacking. Equipping a +20 item would likely require sacrificing more DPS or survivability than would be gained by 5 hide, and I included deepwood stalkers skill effect, ship buff I did forget.
So let's say in total you do manage to get 100 Hide. Sneak Attack increases by 12 from my number, *2.4 is 28.8, * 6 is 173 extra damage, putting total DPS increase at around 700. My point still stands that the original poster had significantly boosted numbers, and if you provide a breakdown on where you're slotting a +20 item and a +6 insightful dexterity skills bonus I'm fairly certain I can point out how it's dropping DPS or survivability (Greensteel would be effective for +6 insightful dexterity skills and probably is the best option to include this).


Your attack speed is also a bit low though. TWF at bab 20 has 133.3 swings per minute hast boost and haste (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144) (swings not attacks so at 100% off hand proc that's 266 attacks per minute).

133*1.58 + 133*1.35
133.3( 2.93)
390.56 attacks per minute
6.51 attacks per second

50 Sneak attack damage
160 Melee Power (@150% = 240) (melee power multiplier is (100+240)/100 = 3.4)

50*3.4 = 170 damage per hit after applying 160 melee power at 150% scaling

6.51 Attacks per second
170 * 6.51 = 1106.61 DPS

4.99 Attacks per second (haste only no Haste boost 102.2* 2.93 = 299.45/60 = 4.99)
170 * 4.99 = 848.30 DPS

104 Total Global Sources of Hide Skill points before dex
23 Ranks
10 Epic Skills
05 Tome
20 Competence Bonus
05 Enhancement Bonus (Ghostly Item)
06 Dex Skills Item
04 Good Luck Item
03 Human Stealthy
03 Class Stealthy
06 Shadow Dancer Stealthy
02 Completionist
03 Skill Focus
02 Setalthy Feat
05 ED Skill Focus Hide
03 Rogue Past Lives Sneak of Shadows (active Feat)
04 Greater Heroisom

20-30 Points form Dex (50-70 Dex Score)

Spells that are very class specific
10 Camoufloge
20 Spiderskin


Note also that The Rogue PL active ability now gives an additional +33 Hide skill (3 of that is passive and always on)

104+30 = 134
Sneak of Shadows burst 164

134/2 * 3.4 * 4.99 = 1136.72 DPS

164/2 * 3.4 * 6.51 = 1814.99 DPS

I know that not every toon will take all the skills bonues or have all the gear I've presented but it is an option for some I think and Hide sill will now give enough of a bonus to make things like Ring of Shadows more appealing then it was before.

[ned_ellis]

My first impression was that this is an interesting list where the different feats have something for a few different types of build but on a second look...

These are all just straight power increases for characters to be better at whatever they're already excellent at doing. They don't really add new options, they just add (a LOT) of extra power creep.

These feats just help cement a situation where all current content becomes completely irrelevant to a level 30 character. Even if Legendary quests require these sorts of buffs, there will only be a handful of them to begin with, so why work so hard to make every other quest in the game more irrelevant (including the already easy for a decent party on EE level 30 raids)?

My suggestion would be to throw these legendary feats out entirely, and move the level 29 feats to level 30 where they would logically be following the previous progression - the proposed level 29 feats (aside from the boring law/chaos ones which are straight bonus DPS and the stunning one which is too powerful unless the timer is really long) are much more interesting and would add variety and options. Personally speaking, these legendary feats would just make me more bored with any character at level 30.

I'd also remove all the bonus and unnecessary melee power, ranged power, and now spell power at each epic level, but keep the spell point discount. They didn't add any options to the 'dead' levels, just more power, which isn't exciting.

I agree with most of this. Regardless of how difficult legendary quests will be it's too much; all existing lvl30ish content will be even easier and new content will not be enough quantity wise to justify it. Power creep is dangerous for the long-term viability of the game - have we learnt nothing from the recent(ish) past?!
I appreciate the attempts at more flavour and trying to help areas/classes that are behind others for the most part but it's just too much and it smacks a little of pleasing only a certain demographic...

[SableShadow]

I'm still catching up on the dev tracker, so not sure if this has been addressed yet by a dev, but I agree with a few other comments that the displacement needs to last for a time after coming out of sneak mode, otherwise it's kinda pointless. The whole point of sneaking is to avoid any attention whatsoever, because even a missed attack will still pull you out of sneak mode (which doesn't make sense imo), so what good does it do you to be displaced only while sneaking. Make the displacement effect remain for 10 seconds after coming out of sneak mode. That's the same duration as measure the foe, so there's less micromanagement of buffs by those who want to maximize their potential.

Some really clean, thought out recommendations there.


[B]
Scion of Limbo
Confetti explodes around your shoulders. Festive!


Not a fan. That kinda thing tends to get old ...


I can't resist this...

"There is no agro reset." :)

"That's a 50 DKP MINUS!!!!11!!" *mad*


key question right here.
Already INT assassins are behind; this is the death knell (am fine with dex assassins, just saying)


Maybe average it over more skills than just hide?
I, for one, think it's cool that skills are involved; changes up the itemization options at the very least (assuming they stick with total score).
I am a little concerned about "skill lag" being created when everything recalculates from an item swap ...

[BigErkyKid]

Hopefully the level 30+ content is excrucationally difficult from monsters to traps to everything so these feats with a maxxed out char will be needed to be effective. And my initial reaction was to say that any quest below 30 with a 30 level char in it should take a big xp hit but that would limit the number of lfms for capped chars and there already is a shortage of lfms for capped chars. Not sure what the solution is here unless they plan on putting out so much 30+ content that we can just binge on it. But i do like the options they have provided and could make for some interesting choices.

The problem I am seeing is that increasingly characters need to be specialized full out in some dimension to reach reasonable levels. These feats very much go in that direction.

[CThruTheEgo]

Any possibility we can get +4 assassinate DC somewhere? It's really only at endgame that assassinate DCs need to be at their best, so a level 30 feat seems like the ideal place to put them. Most other DC schools/abilities seem to be covered, but assassinate is not.

Shadowfell or ethereal plane seem like the most obvious options. Shadowfell really doesn't have much else to offer an assassin, so it seems a little incongruous to put it there. But adding it to ethereal plane would make that the definitive assassin feat, so possibly too much. Maybe drop the +2 skills and/or invis guard. Alternatively, lower the sneak attack damage to +1 for every 3 or 4 points of hide. That seems like the more balanced option imo. Then the feat would offer offense, defense, utility, and DC.

I'm assuming mob saves will be going up in higher level content, so we will need more assassinate DCs. A legendary feat seems like the perfect way to add them.

[Thrudh]

All of these new feats are pretty stout, but the clerics could really use a little love in one specific area: turn undead.

Something... somewhere in this large list... should help them out.

> Master of the Undead: Your turn dice are increased by 12, which stacks with all other turn dice enhancements.
> Scion of Khyber: AOE effect. All nearby undead are destroyed. 3 minute cooldown.

That would be helpful.

Agreed. Turn undead could use an legendary feat.

[Grailhawk]

A flat number would be easier to balance. Maybe a flat number of 25 or 30?

I agree the legendary feat needs to be static increase I would rather see 10 or 15 d6 sneak attack added but flat 25 or 30 would work to.

IMO adding 1/2 your hide skill to your sneak attack damage is a class defining ability waiting till level 30 to get that ability is not good design.

[Thrudh]

I agree the legendary feat needs to be static increase I would rather see 10 or 15 d6 sneak attack added but flat 25 or 30 would work to.

IMO adding 1/2 your hide skill to your sneak attack damage is a class defining ability waiting till level 30 to get that ability is not good design.

I very much like basing the extra damage on the hide skill... That requires people to make some build and gear choices.. And therefore it can be extra powerful.

A free 10-15 sneak attack dice isn't nearly as interesting.

[Grailhawk]

I very much like basing the extra damage on the hide skill... That requires people to make some build and gear choices.. And therefore it can be extra powerful.

A free 10-15 sneak attack dice isn't nearly as interesting.


Your right it is more interesting but its also very build depended to get really good mileage out of it you have to put some serious investment into it investment that starts as far back as level 1.

IMO having to invest in something that much that far back and not getting a pay off until level 30 is bad deigns in the same way that putting dex to hit and damage in shadow dancer was bad deign.

Hide to Sneak Attack can be as fundamental a build option as Dex to damage waiting till 30 to make your build good is not fun.

[Whippy]

Some nice things here, but a few of them look a little mixed up, like they've been designed to cover a wide range of things, like a blanket cover so everyone has something to pick. Not necessarily a bad thing, especially with all the multiclassing these days, but some casters get prr and others get dodge, why? You can also have melee/range power boost if you also want extra spell power? Be nice to see some more specifically targeted.

[archerforever]

Everything looks good here. Good Job.

Just think to add a toggle for elemental damage to not heal mobs if they can do so on that elemental.

[Amundir]

Please make the elemental damage added to weapons be a toggle.
"Confetti explodes around your shoulders. Festive!"
Seriously? I'm all for having some fun with your job, but...

[Grailhawk]

Scion of the Shadowfell

+4 to the DCs of Necromancy spells, +2 to DCs of other spells
+40 Negative Spell Power
+20 Negative Amp (assuming you take healing from Negative)
Weapon and Unarmed attacks heal you for 1d6 Positive damage, or 1d6 Negative damage if you are Undead.


Assuming 450 Devotion after Empower Healing (5.5 devotion multiplier)
Assuming 200 Healing amp (3 hamp multiplier)
Assuming 160 Melee Power (2.6 multiplier)
Assuming a 4.99 Attack per second
Assuming avg kill rate of 1 mob every 4 seconds

1d6 = 3.5 avg health per hit
10.5 avg health per hit
10.5 * 4.99 = 52.4 avg health per second

Cure Serious Wounds has a 5 seconds cooldown
3d6+21 = 31.5 avg health
31.5 * 5.5 * 3 = 519.72
519.72/5 = 103.95 avg health per second (assuming you are spamming it)

Blood Strength (20 Barbarian)
On Kill heal (20 * 2.6 *3)/4 = 39.00 health per second
On Hit Heal 0.12*4.99*(10*2.6*3) = 46.70 health per second
Total health per second 85.70

Cocoon (only counting 2 ticks do to loss of shield in combat) on a 12 second cooldown
150 Temp Health
5*3.5 * 5.5 * 3 = 288.75 per tick
150 + 2*288.75 = 727.5 health
727.5/12 = 60.625 health per second if you are spamming Coccon


IMO this might be to strong a healing ability. The only hesitation i have with calling it op is that you would have to sacrifice a significant chunk of DPS to take it.

[BigErkyKid]

Assuming 450 Devotion after Empower Healing (5.5 devotion multiplier)
Assuming 200 Healing amp (3 hamp multiplier)
Assuming 160 Melee Power (2.6 multiplier)
Assuming a 4.99 Attack per second
Assuming avg kill rate of 1 mob every 4 seconds

1d6 = 3.5 avg health per hit
10.5 avg health per hit
10.5 * 4.99 = 52.4 avg health per second

Cure Serious Wounds has a 5 seconds cooldown
3d6+21 = 31.5 avg health
31.5 * 5.5 * 3 = 519.72
519.72/5 = 103.95 avg health per second (assuming you are spamming it)

Blood Strength (20 Barbarian)
On Kill heal (20 * 2.6 *3)/4 = 39.00 health per second
On Hit Heal 0.12*4.99*(10*2.6*3) = 46.70 health per second
Total health per second 85.70

Cocoon (only counting 2 ticks do to loss of shield in combat) on a 12 second cooldown
150 Temp Health
5*3.5 * 5.5 * 3 = 288.75 per tick
150 + 2*288.75 = 727.5 health
727.5/12 = 60.625 health per second if you are spamming Coccon


IMO this might be to strong a healing ability. The only hesitation i have with calling it op is that you would have to sacrifice a significant chunk of DPS to take it.

I think it is one of the best balanced abilities of all the presented ones.

[Ayseifn]

They kinda did with these:
+20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+30% Crit Damage with Positive, Light, & Alignment spells

That pretty well takes care of the divines... notwithstanding that turn undead is going to be of very limited use (though the highest level quest with significant undead is currently the Jibbers quest in Epic 3BC). If we could either combine my 'Scion of Khyber' idea to the Scion of Celestia -or- add the feat separately, then I'd think we clerics would be good to go.

I meant 2D20 light damage for melee/ranged like the elemental ones have, paladins are divines and it'd be cool if we got the light damage scaling with spell power that was going to come with the paladin pass. Clerics and Favored Souls should also get a nice light melee/ranged option IMO.


Assuming 450 Devotion after Empower Healing (5.5 devotion multiplier)
Assuming 200 Healing amp (3 hamp multiplier)
Assuming 160 Melee Power (2.6 multiplier)
Assuming a 4.99 Attack per second
Assuming avg kill rate of 1 mob every 4 seconds

1d6 = 3.5 avg health per hit
10.5 avg health per hit
10.5 * 4.99 = 52.4 avg health per second

It also adds zero DPS for a melee, not seeing the major problem.

[mikarddo]

Scion of the Astral Plane

+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.




I agree with the other posters that find this on the weak side all things considering.
I suggest making it a bit different by adding the effect that Vorpals occur on 19-20 instead of just 20.
That would add something valuable yet different to this feat giving it a real niche.

[Silverleafeon]

Between the new base-epic-level bonuses to Summons (which everyone will have), Epic Augment Summoning, and Scion of Elysium, there are a lot of new buffs for summoned creatures in this update. We'll be keeping an eye on them overall. These bonuses certainly don't fix every issue that summons/hires/pets have, but they are meant to help them.


Thank you for listening.



Every school gets at least a +2 DC boost when taking those feats. Evocation, Conjuration and Necromancy were chosen for those feats due to having related schools, and that a very large portion of offensive spellcasting relies on those schools, but every school is getting a significant buff to DCs in this update, provided you spec for it.


Again thank you, this will do nicely.

[CrackedIce]

If you think about it, for those who stack guards on their builds - even though each part by itself is unimpressive, the more you add the guards the more likelihood your procs will go off and more often you can rely on them.

Now consider this in comparison to a character that twists in Double Rainbow, picks Dreamscape and Limbo. Would the same theory hold true - with enough randomness, you will have what you want more often??

Would anyone even consider building around this?

I am only conjecturing and would like to see what some of you think.

[morqual]

Please can we have something defensive for a grumpy old dwarf whose armour is glued on.

[SirValentine]

This is a good point.

Enchantment is included in Scion of the Feywild.

I would think combining the remaining schools with the legendary feats that already have DC boosters might be a good way to do this.

Include Illusion with Scion of the Feywild. Transmutation would fit in well with Conjuration, etc.

Ah, yes, though it was there, I did miss seeing Enchantment first time around.

But yes, grouping Abjuration, Illusion, and Transmutation in somewhere would be nice.

I'd actually suggest Illusion in with Shadowfell. By lore, the Shadowfell was created as a merger between the Negative Energy plane (hence the Necromancy & Negative Spell Power), and the Plane of Shadow. The Plane of Shadow, prior to being altered into the Shadowfell, featured both Positive and Negative energy in equal amounts, and was useful for creating Illusions. Right now, the Shadow part of the Shadowfell isn't featured enough in the Scion feat.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Just a quick irrelevant note... it is possible to do this. I've done it more than once on my melee assassin.

Well, I meant during the duration of Invisibility guard.

I can do it with the spell or dragon marks.

( realize it is possible.... just that with the exception of already running away (in which case, I would probably be using a different source for invisibility) it seems that Invisibility guard is currently not useful IMO.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'm currently using an invisibility guard on my rogue, and if you didn't know, the invisibility is unbreakable (even if attacking) AND it resets all aggro you have at the time. On it's own, this is useless for soloing (great for shedding aggro in a party), but if you sneak and run a ways, you will be completely concealed and aggro reset. I use it all the time in my static group and it's incredibly useful.

Surprises me if it actually is resetting agro.

But if so... I stand corrected. ;)

[draven1]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect

Scion of Arborea
+20 Melee and Ranged Power
+20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power
+2 to the Enhancement Bonus of your weapon
+4 to Fortitude Saves

Wait, +20 melee power? It will give more DPS than +1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have.

Let's assume you have 130 base sneak attack damage(This is lowish SA when you have pure assassin) & 120 hide
Sneak attack boosted by melee power 150%, so, multiplier would be 0.35

130*0.3 = 39 per hit(from 20 melee power)
120/2 = 60 per hit(from 120 hide)

Don't forget 20 melee power also boost non-situational base & other damage sources.
200 base attack damage
200*0.2 = 40 per hit(It is also crittable damage)
So, Scion of Arborea gives 79(40+39, before crit) per hit, but Scion of the Ethereal Plane gives 60 per hit

Which one is better?

Need more damage for Scion of the Ethereal Plane.

Edit> fixed multiplier from 0.35 to 0.3

[Bobby88888]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect

Scion of Arborea
+20 Melee and Ranged Power
+20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power
+2 to the Enhancement Bonus of your weapon
+4 to Fortitude Saves

Wait, +20 melee power? It will give more DPS than +1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have.

Let's assume you have 130 base sneak attack damage(This is lowish SA when you have pure assassin) & 120 hide
Sneak attack boosted by melee power 150%, so, multiplier would be 0.35

130*0.35 = 45.5 per hit(from 20 melee power)
120/2 = 60 per hit(from 120 hide)

Don't forget 20 melee power also boost non-situational base & other damage sources.
200 base attack damage
200*0.2 = 40 per hit
So, Scion of Arborea gives 85.5(40+45.5) per hit, but Scion of the Ethereal Plane gives 60 per hit

Which one is better?

Need more damage for Scion of the Ethereal Plane.

You forgot to multiply the bonus SA dmg from hide by MP. assume 100 MP is 150 dmg, but both your hide score and your normal SA dmg numbers are a bit low.

[CThruTheEgo]

Sneak attack boosted by melee power 150%, so, multiplier would be 0.35

Math is a bit off. 150% of 20 is 30, so the multiplier would be 1.3

I did some rough calcs for my assassin earlier and the two feats came out roughly the same offensively. The +20 melee power would come out slightly ahead, but the ethereal feat has more utility and defense. So overall I think they're fairly balanced.

EDIT: As I mentioned in a previous post, I think ethereal needs to be changed so the displacement effect persists for a time after coming out of sneak mode, say ten seconds to match measure the foe. To balance the feat overall, remove some combination of +2 skills, invis guard, or lower the sneak attack damage to +1 for every 3 or 4 hide. Right now, the displacement while sneaking is useless.

[lyrecono]

***Please make sure you have read this thread first, it contains an overview of Update 29 Feats.*** (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467837-Update-29-Feats-Overview)


At level 30 you will get a choice of one Legendary Feat. These feats are stronger than most of your standard feats, and pull their power from different planes. To help round power levels in upper Epic, a lot of these feats are meant to be a little more powerful for characters that have built for versatility; most of them include parts useful to many kinds of players.





Scion of Limbo

+2 Determination Bonus to all Saves
eight buffs, each one minute long. Cycles randomly.

+40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power
+16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot, +20% Spell Crit Damage
+30 PRR and MRR
+20% Dodge and +40 Healing Amp
+20 DR /Law
Your weapon/unarmed strikes and spells deal 1d20 Chaos Damage
Each time you would be damaged, you have a +5% chance to completely ignore the damage. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.
Confetti explodes around your shoulders. Festive!






I see several feats purely for spellcaster, a couple for gishes/hybrid builds, where are the melee feats?

All the plane scion feats are pathetic for pure melee's, they lack elemental spell power to make it worth it

Feywild seems to be geared towards bards and warlocks, neither of them are pure melee's.

Shadowfell, i have no idea who this is really geared to. What endgame necro spells need spell power? Wail?

Scion of the Ethereal Plan, blur/displacement comes on items the guard caused lag issues in the past. the hide mechanic might work, though many end game rogues that i know skipped it because it didn't work/matter in endgame.

Scion of the Astral Plane, most people will say this is meant for melee's, however, those that use a lot of tactics (fighters and fighters come to mind already can reach an extreme dc but can they justify an Legendary Feat for a +4? the dodge/ref save is worthless to heavy&medium armor wearers, some might say this was for monks, but a smart monk will go for something with prr since they need that more at endgame. Not that i see many monks at end game these days.....

Scion of Mechanus, made for pure WF fighters and bladeforged toons?

Scion of Celestia, made for 90% of the warlocks on my server, if there were still some divines around they could use it too i guess.

Scion of Elysium, Can you summon more then 1 creature? are summons any good to justify building a toon for it?

Scion of Arborea, some much needed MP, +2 enh bonus and some useless stuff, this comes close to being useful.

Limbo, really? far to unreliable

I understand that you dev's try to help spell casters but through us barbs and fighters a bone here.

Scion of the Plane of shavarath
+2 maniac bonus vs fear
+20 MRR
+20 Melee Power
Add 1D12 random elemental damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Melee Power)


This brings me to the next point, why are you guys using the lame names for the planes instead of the proper Eberron names for the planes, especially if you guys want to tie them in with epic Vale/Shroud
Seriously uska, where are you, you're usually the first to rage over the setting aspect.
• Scion of the Plane of Earth
?
• Scion of the Plane of Air
Syrania

• Scion of the Plane of Fire
Fernia?

• Scion of the Plane of Water
Risia

• Scion of the Feywild
Thelanis

• Scion of the Shadowfell
Dolurrh

• Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Thelanis?

• Scion of the Astral Plane
Useless feat, dump it

• Scion of Mechanus
Daanvi

• Scion of Celestia
Irian

• Scion of Elysium
Lamannia

• Scion of Arborea
not good enough,remove/change feat

• Scion of Limbo
Kythri

• Scion of the Plane of shavarath
+2 maniac bonus vs fear
+20 MRR
+20 Melee Power
Add 1D12 random elemental damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Melee Power)

• Xoriat
+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.
-4 save vs Otto's Sphere of Dancing

[draven1]

You forgot to multiply the bonus SA dmg from hide by MP. assume 100 MP is 150 dmg, but both your hide score and your normal SA dmg numbers are a bit low.

It is direct compare 2 feats, so I didn't include MP bonus for Ethereal feat, because it gives 0 MP.

[CThruTheEgo]

It is direct compare 2 feats, so I didn't include MP bonus for Ethereal feat, because it gives 0 MP.

That's true, but at level 30 you are going to have some amount of melee power which will boost the sneak attack damage from ethereal further, and that does factor into the overall benefit of the feat so it needs to be taken into account as well.

[Bobby88888]

While useful to look at them in a vacuum it is more accurate to look at them in the actual game so here goes:

Assumptions:
-100 base damage (before MP, arbitrarily picked)
-375 average SA dmg (post MP, roughly what I see on live, I don't pay that much attention to it though so could be wrong)= 150 base SA dmg
-100 MP (roughly my current live MP with mtf or damage boost going)
-128 hide

Before either:
100*2+150*2.5=575

Arborea:
-MP = 120
100*2.2 +150*2.8=640

Ethereal:
100*2+214*2.5=735

95 more damage from ethereal, some of which can be made back up by MP applying to secondary effects. Ethereal ends up with a little more damage but it only gives damage while arborea also gives other useful effects, fairly big useful effects.

Edited for a math fail :)

[CThruTheEgo]

While useful to look at them in a vacuum it is more accurate to look at them in the actual game so here goes:

Assumptions:
-100 base damage (before MP, arbitrarily picked)
-375 average SA dmg (post MP, roughly what I see on live, I don't pay that much attention to it though so could be wrong)= 150 base SA dmg
-100 MP (roughly my current live MP with mtf or damage boost going)
-128 hide

Before either:
100*2+150*2.5=575

Arborea:
-MP = 120
100*2.2 +150*2.8=640

Ethereal:
100*2+214*2.5=735

95 more damage from ethereal, some of which can be made back up by MP applying to secondary effects. Ethereal ends up with a little more damage but it only gives damage while arborea also gives other useful effects, fairly big useful effects.

Edited for a math fail :)

Factoring in crits would probably close that gap quite a bit, if not pull arborea ahead. Arborea also gains +2 enhancement bonus, so another 2 base damage, which is also affected by total melee power and crits.

Ethereal offers more than just damage. Invis guard resets agro, the +2 skills are useful for a dex based assassin, the blur is meh because it's easily slotted elsewhere, the displacement would be useful if it was made to persist for some time after coming out of sneak mode. IMO arborea is the one that doesn't offer much more than damage, at least for an assassin, but since it probably leads in damage, then I think they're well balanced overall.

[draven1]

Any possibility we can get +4 assassinate DC somewhere?

Yeah, casters got passive +6 DC from feats(Scion of the Shadowfell +4 & embolden magic +2), & another situtational +6 DC from lvl 21 feat(Arcane Insight).
Total +12 DC from U29, but 0 for assassinate DC?

I am sure legendary contents will need at least +10 DC from today's build. Even +4 isn't enough.

[Torkzed]

I see several feats purely for spellcaster, a couple for gishes/hybrid builds, where are the melee feats?


While I can understand why you might look at the list and think that melee is getting less because there are far fewer options for melee, I think it really is just a product of the way melee power is applied across all weapon types.


Melee have melee power. It works on every single melee weapon, be it bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, whatever. While you were not impressed with them, there was a feat that added melee power, and another feat that added melee DC bonuses.

Depending on what kind of caster one is building, there are really only one or two decent choices in this list. There is a feat that provides a bonus to your main spell damage type. And there are feats that add to DCs.

I guess you might argue you should have both melee benefits in one feat, since several caster feats give both a DC benefit and a spell power benefit, but I really dont think there is as much a difference in choices as your post would suggest.

[Lanadazia]

Scion of the Plane of Water

+200 Maximum Spell Points
+20 MRR
+10 Cold Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
Add 2d20 Cold damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)





Scion of the Ethereal Plane

Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect





Scion of Mechanus

+20 Repair & Rust Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+20 Repair Amplification (assuming you take healing from Repair)
+10% Fortification Bypass on weapon and unarmed attacks
Gain: Master Reconstruction, shares cooldown with Communion of Scribing





Scion of Elysium

Summoned creatures gain +25 PRR and MRR
Summoned creatures gain +20 MP, RP, and USP
Summoned creatures gain +100% Fortification
Summoned creatures gain a 5% chance to ignore incoming damage entirely. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.




Scion of Limbo

+2 Determination Bonus to all Saves
eight buffs, each one minute long. Cycles randomly.

+40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power
+16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot, +20% Spell Crit Damage
+30 PRR and MRR
+20% Dodge and +40 Healing Amp
+20 DR /Law
Your weapon/unarmed strikes and spells deal 1d20 Chaos Damage
Each time you would be damaged, you have a +5% chance to completely ignore the damage. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.
Confetti explodes around your shoulders. Festive!





plane of water, etheral plane and mechanus seem off to me. like they're too weak. even as a water savant i would not pick the plane of water feat. compared to the other feats the plane of water feat is the weakest of the complete list.

the mechanus and etheral ones are just meh.. i'd rather see the sneakattack bonus nerfed instead of having such a big bonus and some "meh" stuff with it. perma blur and invis guard are not very rare, there are several items with that. sure it may open up an item slot, but still thats not as great as others like 25% crit damage, or massive DC boosts in other feats.

not sure about the elysium one. it sounds really nice, but then again the messy AI will make that feat kinda obsolete

the limbo one seems to be way too powerful. even though its randomized i think the boni are too powerful in the first place. DDO is a game with caluclabe character builds, its alot about choices you make, the character cutomization is superb, i don't think more of that randomized stuff fits in. (double rainbow past life was kinda silly already, so is most stuff of the shiradi ED)

[lyrecono]

While I can understand why you might look at the list and think that melee is getting less because there are far fewer options for melee, I think it really is just a product of the way melee power is applied across all weapon types.


Melee have melee power. It works on every single melee weapon, be it bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, whatever. While you were not impressed with them, there was a feat that added melee power, and another feat that added melee DC bonuses.

Depending on what kind of caster one is building, there are really only one or two decent choices in this list. There is a feat that provides a bonus to your main spell damage type. And there are feats that add to DCs.

I guess you might argue you should have both melee benefits in one feat, since several caster feats give both a DC benefit and a spell power benefit, but I really don't think there is as much a difference in choices as your post would suggest.

yes, and i argues that the feat that adds dc's is pathetic, those that invest in it can already reach high dc and the rest of the benefits are terribly weak and unsuited for most melees i know.
it seems to be geared towards monks but they are far better of with the acid/prr one.

The other one was terrible too, that's why i came up with the one i mentioned, it is far better at filling the gap most melee's suffer due to the armor nerf
Come on, 20 force and universal power? pathetic +4 fort saves? really?

in all there are 2 somewhat melee orientated feats, but they barely are true melee feats, 1 is weak the other is not fully geared towards full melee's

when i cam up with this:
• Scion of the Plane of shavarath
+2 maniac bonus vs fear
+20 MRR
+20 Melee Power
Add 1D12 random elemental damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Melee Power)

maybe you could skip the random elemental damage but the combination of mrr and melee power is far better then spellpower

Out of all the lv 30 feats posted by the dev's there is nothing that screams out barbarian or pure fighter feat to me, none of them jump out as a good, pure melee feat

[rehakp]

Nice powerfull "capstones" for epic lvl 30. More caster oriented but thats ok because even meelee/ranged can find some nice picks here.
I can even see that some meelee/rangeds would like scion of shadowfell for the 1d6 healing.
What im little afraid of is ppl and developers start thinking about DC casting automatically including those capstones whitch will not help witch DC casting at all.
I mean +4 for you school of specialization is nice. But its terrible if everyone including developers, monsters and content counts with it and you only can pick it at max level when most of the hard work (if not all) is already done.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Scion of the Plane of Water is a stepchild, with +200 spell points being almost insignificant at cap (or new cap). +500 or more might make it more attractive.

Scion of the Ethereal Plane has several rather useless features. Perma-blur is very common on items and elsewhere, displacement isn't hard to get and having it only apply while sneaking is again almost useless. Permanent invisibility shield is also of negligible use.

The doublestrike in Scion of the Astral Plane is undervalued. 4% is fairly trivial compared to what you can get out of ED abilities (7% for Legendary Shield Mastery, 3% for Hail of Blows, 3% for Running with Wind, 3% for Shadow Training IV, many active abilities). It should be 8% with the +4% for monks.

All of the +x damage to weapon and unarmed attacks should scale with melee and ranged power and not spell power.

Scion of Elysium... Really? Waiting until the new level cap to do something for summoned creatures? (Note that there is no mention of Hirelings or pets being affected) Summoned creatures become useless very rapidly in epic levels because Summon Monster IX is the top spell and so they remain static while the challenge increases dramatically. Summoned creatures surely need a fix, but one which only kicks in at the level cap is not the way to go.

Scion of Limbo - Your weapon/unarmed strikes and spells deal 1d20 Chaos Damage. Did you forget to add the (Scales with Spell Power) note? Which again should be (Scales with melee and ranged attack power).

[amsharkwei]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane

Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect
.................................................. .......
while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
while sneaking, when you attacked by foe, no matter hit or miss, you will break the sneaking. so what's the point ?
why not give it permanent Invisibility ?

+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have.
too low for Legendary fight

+2 to all Skills
too low for Legendary dungeons

Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect
pointless,why not give us Permanent Displacement Guard

.................................................. ....
this is what we want:
Scion of the Ethereal Plane

Permanent Invisibility. and while sneaking, heal 1D6 HP per sec.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every points of Hide and sneak you have
+5 to all Skills
+10 assassinate DC !!!
Permanent Displacement Guard, as per the item effect

[GeoffWatson]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect

The sneak attack damage is the only good part.
Permanent Blur? Lesser Displacement is available on a few items, and Blur is available from 3rd level.
Displacement while sneaking? Stealth is cancelled if you are attacked.
+2 to all Skills? OK
Invisibility Guard? Useless. Invisibility gives no combat benefit (should give 50% concealment, it gives 0), and monsters attacking you immediately get the "big red eye/I see you" symbol, so it is worthless for sneaking.

This seems not that good. The sneak attack damage can be quite high, but that's all you get.

[Saekee]

The sneak attack damage is the only good part.
Permanent Blur? Lesser Displacement is available on a few items, and Blur is available from 3rd level.
Displacement while sneaking? Stealth is cancelled if you are attacked.
+2 to all Skills? OK
Invisibility Guard? Useless. Invisibility gives no combat benefit (should give 50% concealment, it gives 0), and monsters attacking you immediately get the "big red eye/I see you" symbol, so it is worthless for sneaking.

This seems not that good. The sneak attack damage can be quite high, but that's all you get.

Stealth is cancelled if you get HIT hence why the displacement is nice.

Funny, I got excited by this one. It should include ki regen bonus while stealthed too.

The bonus to sneak damage based on the skill needs clarification, i.e. is it based on ranks, gear etc.

[lyrecono]

bards have cc based on perform, why not an assassinate dc based on hide?

[inspiredunease]

Scion of the Astral Plane
+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.

Could this also give increased dodge cap? For a class that cares about it, it's already too easy to hit the dodge cap, so it's a dead benefit; with a cap increase, it would at least be vaguely relevant. On the whole it's power level is too low to make anyone take it anyway really, +4 DC is niceish for monks, but monks are completely worthless at end game. If they changed QP back to how it used to be it might be kinda cool. I thought the devs were supposed to be making minor updates to classes, that would be a nice one to go along with U29. +4 reflex is pretty meh as well. +5 reflex and do not fail reflex saves on a one again would make it vaguely worthwhile. The doublestrike/shot is quite nice, very nice if it could be increased by +1/+2. My proposal would be:

Scion of the Astral Plane
+5 to Tactical Feat DCs (and either fix QP, or at least I can live in hope that monks might be properly fixed some time in the future)
+5% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +5 if you are centered.
+5% Dodge +5% maximum dodge
+5 to Reflex Saves do not fail reflex saves on a 1


Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect

I agree with others that the secondary benefits on this are pretty worthless, something like:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Permanent Blur + Displacement guard
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+5 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility

[inspiredunease]

The bonus to sneak damage based on the skill needs clarification, i.e. is it based on ranks, gear etc.

This was already clarified, it's based on total hide score.

[LiquidZombie]

Shadowfell, i have no idea who this is really geared to. What endgame necro spells need spell power? Wail?

Necrotic Ray, Finger of Death (negative damage on a successful save), Death Aura and Negative Energy Burst will all benefit from increased spellpower for both damage and healing, and with the additional feat to remove the caster level cap, Chill Touch will also become an option at endgame. Necrotic Ray will also benefit from the +4 DC (it has a fortitude save) along with all of the pure DC instakill abilities.

I for one am looking forward to taking this feat as a necro wizard.

[slarden]

Necrotic Ray, Finger of Death (negative damage on a successful save), Death Aura and Negative Energy Burst will all benefit from increased spellpower for both damage and healing, and with the additional feat to remove the caster level cap, Chill Touch will also become an option at endgame. Necrotic Ray will also benefit from the +4 DC (it has a fortitude save) along with all of the pure DC instakill abilities.

I for one am looking forward to taking this feat as a necro wizard.

The current spellpower split (all negative) is not useful for archmage, warlock and not as useful for most divine necromancers. While I think PMs needed a boost, the devs should remember not all necromancers are PMs.

[dualscissors]

Is the permanent displacement whole sneaking useful at all? Honest question.

This instantly struck me as an answer to a complaint that appeared heavily on the rogue pass thread - archers and mobs using cleaves break rogue stealth with dumbluck hits.

Even if I'm running with 3 displacement greensteel items, I usually can't justify turning on displacement for regular travel and stealthing. The "displaced automatically if stealthing" ability here goes a long ways to mitigate getting knocked out of stealth by a random arrow or a cleave that wasn't even intended for you.

Granted this means that for 1-29 levels junk shots will still break your stealth.

If the displacement lingered for more than a second or two (say, 10 seconds), I imagine players will munchkin this by toggling stealth every time they catch a breath in a fight so as to keep displacement up.

[LiquidZombie]

The current spellpower split (all negative) is not useful for archmage, warlock and not as useful for most divine necromancers. While I think PMs needed a boost, the devs should remember not all necromancers are PMs.

I don't disagree with this. I interpreted the post I responded to as "Why would any necromancer care about spell power?", including PMs.

Like you, I think the feat should have the same 30/10 spellpower split as the elemental ones, to make it more useful for necromancers that care about DCs while relying on elemental spells for direct damage.

[Hephaistor]

The current spellpower split (all negative) is not useful for archmage, warlock and not as useful for most divine necromancers. While I think PMs needed a boost, the devs should remember not all necromancers are PMs.

My Pale Master is built like this: First goal is to get everything for maximum DC, second goal is to get maximum universal spell power. I have a lot of spare spell slots as a wizard and I can swap spells at every shrine. I go for universal spellpower because I may not get as high on maximal spellpower as non-DC casters can, but I always attack with the best element available. I use spells from all spell schools in boss fights depending on resistances and vulnerabilities.

[count_spicoli]

Necrotic Ray, Finger of Death (negative damage on a successful save), Death Aura and Negative Energy Burst will all benefit from increased spellpower for both damage and healing, and with the additional feat to remove the caster level cap, Chill Touch will also become an option at endgame. Necrotic Ray will also benefit from the +4 DC (it has a fortitude save) along with all of the pure DC instakill abilities.

I for one am looking forward to taking this feat as a necro wizard.

Ya not sure what he is thinking with that statement. This would be a big boost to a necro caster.

[count_spicoli]

The problem I am seeing is that increasingly characters need to be specialized full out in some dimension to reach reasonable levels. These feats very much go in that direction.

Ya but isn't that a good thing. Shouldn't you have to specialize in some area to really be effective. If a dude can have the best ac, the best prr, the best dps, the best at traps, the best casting spell power, what good is that? Wouldn't everyone just play that toon. If you want the best dps you should specialize for it. If you want the best defense you should specialize in it and sacrifice other areas. Same with trapping and so and so on. Maybe this would make the game where people would actually benefit from being in groups instead of everyone just soloing all the time

[bloodnose13]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane

Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect



seems to me like that displacement has marginal use, i would like to suggest changeing it to regeneration effect while sneaking, healed by shadows? and/or effect that would instantly break aggro on turning on sneak.

[sjbb87]

Feasible for rogue and ranger
Scion of the Ethereal Plane

Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect

[/LIST]
It would be viable for other dps, but this very weak .... Perhaps may serve only to Monk.

Scion of the Astral Plane

+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.



viable for paladin,cleric and fvs

Scion of Celestia

+20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+30% Crit Damage with Positive, Light, & Alignment spells
+150 Maximum Hit Points
+4 to Will Saves


viable for other dps

Scion of Arborea

+20 Melee and Ranged Power
+20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power
+2 to the Enhancement Bonus of your weapon
+4 to Fortitude Saves



Russian roulette

Scion of Limbo

+2 Determination Bonus to all Saves
eight buffs, each one minute long. Cycles randomly.
[LIST]
+40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power
+16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot, +20% Spell Crit Damage
+30 PRR and MRR
+20% Dodge and +40 Healing Amp
+20 DR /Law
Your weapon/unarmed strikes and spells deal 1d20 Chaos Damage
Each time you would be damaged, you have a +5% chance to completely ignore the damage. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.
Confetti explodes around your shoulders. Festive!




Comments in color
Pls use Scion of Limbo to base:

40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power vs 20 Melee and Ranged Power 20 Universal Spell Power(Scion of Arborea)
16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot vs 4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. (Scion of the Astral Plane ,only 4?)
20% Dodge vs +4% Dodge.(Scion of the Astral Plane, only 4)

try to give more options for players

[Nightmanis]

key question right here.
Already INT assassins are behind; this is the death knell (am fine with dex assassins, just saying)

In general I find all these changes to be problematic power creep for players.

Yeah I've already gotten a TOEE Rapier and am working on a TF Rapier. Such dex based Harper rogue.

[Steelstar]

Comments in color
Pls use Scion of Limbo to base:

40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power vs 20 Melee and Ranged Power 20 Universal Spell Power(Scion of Arborea)
16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot vs 4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. (Scion of the Astral Plane ,only 4?)
20% Dodge vs +4% Dodge.(Scion of the Astral Plane, only 4)

try to give more options for players

Scion of Limbo intentionally has higher bonuses than the other Legendary Feats. It's powerful, but less predictable.

[CThruTheEgo]

Scion of Limbo intentionally has higher bonuses than the other Legendary Feats. It's powerful, but less predictable.

Any comment on the possibility of adding assassinate DCs to one of these feats?

[CThruTheEgo]

Yeah, casters got passive +6 DC from feats(Scion of the Shadowfell +4 & embolden magic +2), & another situtational +6 DC from lvl 21 feat(Arcane Insight).
Total +12 DC from U29, but 0 for assassinate DC?

I am sure legendary contents will need at least +10 DC from today's build. Even +4 isn't enough.

Good point. I missed the other DC options for casters. And you're probably right. If prior updates are any indication, new level 30+ content mobs will have sky high saves. +10 seems like a bit much, but that really depends on mob saves in new content. +4 does seem too low though, now that you point it out. So I'd be in favor of up to +10 to assassinate DCs. This would also greatly help out newer assassins who don't have top notch gear yet.

[sjbb87]

Scion of Limbo intentionally has higher bonuses than the other Legendary Feats. It's powerful, but less predictable.

OK... but Astral Plane need a buff to more competitive

20 Melee and Ranged Power (Scion of Arborea)
4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot(Scion of the Astral Plane)

Scion of Limbo
40 Melee and Ranged power
16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot


Scion of the Astral Plane
need a buff to 8 ~10 Doublestrike & Doubleshot

none advanced player will choose this feat(except for monks... its ok to monks)

[CThruTheEgo]

This instantly struck me as an answer to a complaint that appeared heavily on the rogue pass thread - archers and mobs using cleaves break rogue stealth with dumbluck hits.

Even if I'm running with 3 displacement greensteel items, I usually can't justify turning on displacement for regular travel and stealthing. The "displaced automatically if stealthing" ability here goes a long ways to mitigate getting knocked out of stealth by a random arrow or a cleave that wasn't even intended for you.

Granted this means that for 1-29 levels junk shots will still break your stealth.

But this isn't how it works. I just tested in game to confirm. Using the assassin in my sig, I ran in shadow dancer with shadow form on and displacement up. Went into 3BC wilderness area, killed all mobs in an area except one archer. I had his agro, went into sneak mode, and let him shoot some arrows at me. All types of miss messages - miss, displaced, dodge, and incorporeal - pulled me out of sneak mode immediately. No damage taken, but I was pulled out of sneak mode. Thus the displacement while sneaking aspect of this feat is useless and does not solve the problem of being pulled out of sneak mode when you didn't get hit.

The best solution here, devs, is to fix this so that a missed hit will not pull you out of sneak mode. But since that probably won't happen, make the displacement from the ethereal feat last for 10 seconds after coming out of sneak mode.

[dualscissors]

key question right here.
Already INT assassins are behind; this is the death knell (am fine with dex assassins, just saying)

In general I find all these changes to be problematic power creep for players.

I'm not sure how interested the Devs are in picking up the old thought from the rogue pass thread from a few months ago about the ~inferiority of INT based vs. DEX based assassins.

I echo CThru's forums comments that DEX based assassins have an overall stronger power level (ie. better defenses with Thief Acrobat, can bump your Assassinate DC up easier, don't need to burn a feat on Insightful Reflexes, synergy of helpless damage - with the only loss being a reduction in Know the Angles).

Hide certainly plays better with DEX based than INT based in that your stat modifier will be derived from Dex in the mid-60s+, instead of mid-30s with an Int build.

INT based assassins could benefit from this Legendary Feat more with something like the bonus coming from the higher between Hide (Dex) or Search (Int).

The flavor for INT/Search might be finding gaps in armor or anatomical precision. Hide bonus damage would be flavored as catching enemies unaware.

[dualscissors]

But this isn't how it works. I just tested in game to confirm. Using the assassin in my sig, I ran in shadow dancer with shadow form on and displacement up. Went into 3BC wilderness area, killed all mobs in an area except one archer. I had his agro, went into sneak mode, and let him shoot some arrows at me. All types of miss messages - miss, displaced, dodge, and incorporeal - pulled me out of sneak mode immediately. No damage taken, but I was pulled out of sneak mode. Thus the displacement while sneaking aspect of this feat is useless and does not solve the problem of being pulled out of sneak mode when you didn't get hit.

The best solution here, devs, is to fix this so that a missed hit will not pull you out of sneak mode. But since that probably won't happen, make the displacement from the ethereal feat last for 10 seconds after coming out of sneak mode.

Thanks for testing. I had thought of this after I posted but will admit that it was never obvious to me from play that misses always pull me out of agro.

Where I have hesitation here is that I would certainly toggle stealth a lot in combat if it meant adding 10 seconds of displacement. Granted this won't work if mobs are hating on your toon specifically, but most often you'll find a lull in a fight to restealth at least for a split second or two. 10 second displacements that came so easy might be OP, no?

[CThruTheEgo]

Where I have hesitation here is that I would certainly toggle stealth a lot in combat if it meant adding 10 seconds of displacement. Granted this won't work if mobs are hating on your toon specifically, but most often you'll find a lull in a fight to restealth at least for a split second or two. 10 second displacements that came so easy might be OP, no?

Well, if you're trying to min/max your potential as an assassin, then you're probably dropping into stealth every 10 seconds anyway because that is the duration of measure the foe. So it's not like you'd be dropping into sneak mode solely for the displacement. Plus, with only 3 greensteel clickies (90% of the time I never use more than 2) and the displacement effect from improved invisibility, properly timed, you can already keep yourself displaced 100% of the time. So I don't see it as any different than the current situation, maybe just a little less micromanagement of clickies and buffs.

EDIT: Besides, Sev said during the rogue revamp that assassin defense is intended to be primarily from damage avoidance rather than damage mitigation, so this would just add to that.

[Maldrak]

Am I the only one that read all this and thought, "I'd rather have another epic past life feat"?

Seriously, these are pretty weak... They LOOK all shiney, until you start putting them up against the kinds of stats you ALREADY have at lvl 28, at which point they're making at best 5-10% difference (and probably for most builds more like 2-5%), I'd honestly rather eTR 50% earlier....

[slarden]

Stealth is cancelled if you get HIT hence why the displacement is nice.

Funny, I got excited by this one. It should include ki regen bonus while stealthed too.

The bonus to sneak damage based on the skill needs clarification, i.e. is it based on ranks, gear etc.

Int assassins are traps for new and casual players. The devs had a chance to make some very easy balancing changes and instead chose to throw them under the bus.

[Ligraph]

Ya but isn't that a good thing. Shouldn't you have to specialize in some area to really be effective. If a dude can have the best ac, the best prr, the best dps, the best at traps, the best casting spell power, what good is that? Wouldn't everyone just play that toon. If you want the best dps you should specialize for it. If you want the best defense you should specialize in it and sacrifice other areas. Same with trapping and so and so on. Maybe this would make the game where people would actually benefit from being in groups instead of everyone just soloing all the time

Well put.

[Nigo]

These feats do not help my s&b tank at all

[lyrecono]

yep, like i said, lv 30 legendary feats screw over melee builds

[CThruTheEgo]

Be careful making blanket statements you might come across as not knowing what you don't know.

Might want to follow your own advice.


The truth is that the difference between optimal INT versus Optimal DEX is that you need to scroll tensors annoyingly often to have a slightly better DC, actually you have to scroll just to have AS GOOD or just slightly better now that INT builds have +2 INT augments. And even with the scrolls you'll still have inferior boss DPS... inferior Melee power (inferior backstab damage) and lots of AP wasted in a staff tree especially once Mortal Fear is useless in new content.

Enjoy your tensors scrolling playstyle it's mostly what you'll be doing, oh and of course clubbing stuff with a tensors scroll when you forget to swap back to your weapons in mid fight (which surely is not losing you yet more DPS than you're already down no... not in Forum DDO where scroll swapping happens instantaniously and is never clumbsey or prone to repeated clicks to get past the lag) those are fun to watch: hey *name withheld to protect the guildy* you're beating on that devil with a scroll again. Been there laughed at that...

This is completely false. Because this isn't the place to get into such a debate, I won't rehash a discussion that's been settled for a long time now. Just a note to others who actually do not know, slarden is absolutely correct - int based assassins are a newb trap. This is actually the first time in a long time that I've seen someone try to argue otherwise.

[Steelstar]

Thanks for the feedback so far, folks. We'll be making some adjustments to Scion of the Ethereal Plane, likely reducing the Sneak Attack damage somewhat and replacing the Displacement. If you haven't gotten a chance to check out the new Feats on Lamannia yet, I'd encourage you to do so! Playtest feedback is the most useful feedback in terms of knowing what needs adjustment.


These feats do not help my s&b tank at all

yep, like i said, lv 30 legendary feats screw over melee builds

That's good to know, but we're not likely to do anything about that unless you elaborate on why you feel that way, and (ideally) let us know what you'd like to see.

[CThruTheEgo]

Thanks for the feedback so far, folks. We'll be making some adjustments to Scion of the Ethereal Plane, likely reducing the Sneak Attack damage somewhat and replacing the Displacement.

Replacing displacement with +6-8 assassinate DCs?

[Nightmanis]

Replacing displacement with +6-8 assassinate DCs?

Do it for every 4 hide and implement this, change blur to lesser displacement and I'll still take this feat.

[CThruTheEgo]

Do it for every 4 hide and implement this, change blur to lesser displacement and I'll still take this feat.

Sounds good to me.

/signed.

[bloodnose13]

ok where to start, so s&b players are taught by that playstyle to squeeze in as much as possible per possible slot, becouse they have lots of stuff they have to fit in into gear/feats, takeing a feat for just one effect on it that has any use feels like total waste. my comments are from a point of view s&b tanky paladin, those i skipped are completely useless from that perspective.


]
this one would fit for a fighter or a vanguard for their shield bashing (tac dc), but truth to be told, shield user that is in heavy plate and towershield wont see any bonus from that dodge, unless does not have any dodge on gear and thats unlikely since dodge is slapped nearly on any item that was recently created for high levels, reflex bonus wont help either, mostly this whole feat screams of monk.

Scion of the Astral Plane

+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.



this one, fits for all caster clerics and fvs, paladins? not so much, sure it will help with self healing, but does not give them anything, since they have no attack spells that would use the spellpower, maybe if paladins got reworked and were given some paladin like effects that would use spellpower, then it would be useful. (i still say that paladins(not just giveing cleaves to kotc) all prestiges of theirs need total rework, to make them feel they are paladins and not fighters with selfhealing, i cant belive i say that, but neverwinter has better design for paladin powers)

Scion of Celestia

+20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+30% Crit Damage with Positive, Light, & Alignment spells
+150 Maximum Hit Points
+4 to Will Saves



YAY boost for my summonable warhorse!!!!!!.......... oh wait...... nvm.

Scion of Elysium

Summoned creatures gain +25 PRR and MRR
Summoned creatures gain +20 MP, RP, and USP
Summoned creatures gain +100% Fortification
Summoned creatures gain a 5% chance to ignore incoming damage entirely. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.



again the one that i think will have the most use, it seems the best melee feat of them all, it has melee power, extra enchantment for weapon, that means more damage/attack bonus, 20 universal spellpower for self healing, that forcce spellpower feels good for melee cleric/fvs for blade barrier? melee warlock? artificer?

Scion of Arborea

+20 Melee and Ranged Power
+20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power
+2 to the Enhancement Bonus of your weapon
+4 to Fortitude Saves



total chaos, could be useful, if not the fact its completely random, i have feeling it will proc wrong effects at wrong times all the time. maybe it could become a clickie, it would still passively do what it does now ,but it would also have chance to produce one charge from time to time, that would allow us to choose one of the effects from those to apply from time to time? maybe make it require lawful alignment of character to work like that?

Scion of Limbo

+2 Determination Bonus to all Saves
eight buffs, each one minute long. Cycles randomly.

+40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power
+16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot, +20% Spell Crit Damage
+30 PRR and MRR
+20% Dodge and +40 Healing Amp
+20 DR /Law
Your weapon/unarmed strikes and spells deal 1d20 Chaos Damage
Each time you would be damaged, you have a +5% chance to completely ignore the damage. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.
Confetti explodes around your shoulders. Festive!




so here it is, from my opinion, some of those could work but none of them realy covers s&b in full, and neither of them fully fits for paladin class.

[lyrecono]

Thanks for the feedback so far, folks. We'll be making some adjustments to Scion of the Ethereal Plane, likely reducing the Sneak Attack damage somewhat and replacing the Displacement. If you haven't gotten a chance to check out the new Feats on Lamannia yet, I'd encourage you to do so! Playtest feedback is the most useful feedback in terms of knowing what needs adjustment.




That's good to know, but we're not likely to do anything about that unless you elaborate on why you feel that way, and (ideally) let us know what you'd like to see.

Thank you,

Scion of Arborea
+20 Melee and Ranged Power
+20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power
+2 to the Enhancement Bonus of your weapon
+4 to Fortitude Saves

Change the spellpower to mrr (same value), we're getting blasted in the newer content (ToEE part 2 and those abedishai)


Scion of the Astral Plane
+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.

Change double strike so it works on cleaves, make it raise the max cap on your armor

and please, please use the proper Eberron names for the planes

[Steelstar]

Replacing displacement with +6-8 assassinate DCs?

Changing it to Assasinate DCs has a number of issues, including creating the perception that this feat was "Only for Assassins". Which isn't the case, but that's how things get perceived.

We'll likely replace it with something more broadly useful, rather than narrowly useful. More on that when we've had time to think about it further.

[Anaximandroz]

ok where to start, so s&b players are taught by that playstyle to squeeze in as much as possible per possible slot, becouse they have lots of stuff they have to fit in into gear/feats, takeing a feat for just one effect on it that has any use feels like total waste. my comments are from a point of view s&b tanky paladin, those i skipped are completely useless from that perspective.



so here it is, from my opinion, some of those could work but none of them realy covers s&b in full, and neither of them fully fits for paladin class.

Man, this is a caster update.

[Nightmanis]

Changing it to Assasinate DCs has a number of issues, including creating the perception that this feat was "Only for Assassins". Which isn't the case, but that's how things get perceived.

We'll likely replace it with something more broadly useful, rather than narrowly useful. More on that when we've had time to think about it further.

Make insightful combat mastery work with assassinate then?

[Renvar]

and please, please use the proper Eberron names for the planes

Not to be nit-picking, but the game is based in Eberron and FR now, so FR plane names are fine.

[CThruTheEgo]

Changing it to Assasinate DCs has a number of issues, including creating the perception that this feat was "Only for Assassins". Which isn't the case, but that's how things get perceived.

We'll likely replace it with something more broadly useful, rather than narrowly useful. More on that when we've had time to think about it further.

You don't think that +4 tactical DCs makes astral plane something that only tactics builds (i.e. tactics fighters or monks) would take? Or that +4 necromancy DC, negative spell power, and negative amp is primarily for necromancers/pale masters?

Let's be honest here. Each one of these feats screams that they are geared toward a specific kind of build, while they all offer a little something to other builds. Ethereal is already primarily for assassins because very few builds actually invest in hide and every other melee build would benefit more from the melee power of arborea. So you might as well just go all-in and add some assassinate DCs to ethereal and make it the one that is obviously geared toward assassins, even though it does still offer a little something to other builds, just like all the other feats listed.

Has there been any discussion about adding assassinate DCs to any of these feats? Reasons for why that is a good idea are discussed in post #81 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467838-Update-29-Feats-Legendary-Feats?p=5725614&viewfull=1#post5725614), post #107 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467838-Update-29-Feats-Legendary-Feats?p=5726093&viewfull=1#post5726093) and post #131 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467838-Update-29-Feats-Legendary-Feats?p=5726502&viewfull=1#post5726502). I haven't seen any dev response to this request at all, but it has been an idea that shows support among players. Nearly all the other core DC abilities are represented in these feats, and it is almost certain that assassins are going to need a boost with the new, higher level content.

If something very compelling is not added to replace the displacement effect, then I don't see this feat being very attractive to the vast majority of builds. Any melee build would prefer arborea, including assassins. Adding assassinate to ethereal at least gives assassins a difficult choice between ethereal and arborea.

[Steelstar]

If something very compelling is not added to replace the displacement effect, then I don't see this feat being very attractive to the vast majority of builds.

I agree, and Assassinate DCs don't change that. There is definitely a need for Assassinate DCs in Legendary levels. We do not want Assassins to feel required to take this feat over the others here. We do not want non-Assassin characters to feel this feat isn't for them because they gained Assassinate DCs they can't use. We are not ignoring the desire for Assassinate DCs, but this feat isn't the right place for it.

[lyrecono]

Not to be nit-picking, but the game is based in Eberron and FR now, so FR plane names are fine.

yes, and the "should have stayed forgotten realms" did ddo a lot of good, we lost the largest drop of the community in that time

anyway, the last updates all tie in to the epic vale, it would be a lot more fitting to use Eberron names.

[maddong]

I agree, and Assassinate DCs don't change that. There is definitely a need for Assassinate DCs in Legendary levels. We do not want Assassins to feel required to take this feat over the others here. We do not want non-Assassin characters to feel this feat isn't for them because they gained Assassinate DCs they can't use. We are not ignoring the desire for Assassinate DCs, but this feat isn't the right place for it.

Aren't sorcerers going to be required to take a master of elements feat?

[draven1]

We do not want non-Assassin characters to feel this feat isn't for them because they gained Assassinate DCs they can't use. We are not ignoring the desire for Assassinate DCs, but this feat isn't the right place for it.

How about adding more use for assassination DC gear or feat? There are many melee or ranged instakills now. CDG, Quivering Palm, Executioner strike, even Consume. Add assassination DC bonus for those. Current assassination DC gear or feat have too narrow use.

[dualscissors]

I agree, and Assassinate DCs don't change that. There is definitely a need for Assassinate DCs in Legendary levels. We do not want Assassins to feel required to take this feat over the others here. We do not want non-Assassin characters to feel this feat isn't for them because they gained Assassinate DCs they can't use. We are not ignoring the desire for Assassinate DCs, but this feat isn't the right place for it.

It's good to hear the acknowledgment of Assassinate DCs even if it isn't present in the legendary feat.

Currently Assassins can reach a decent DC (I'd say this more about Dex-based due to them having an extra +3 Dex option from Thief Acro, as well as the option to use +2 Yugo pots that don't have much negative side effect; and newer toons can prep a fight with a Tenser's scroll if they need a +4 boon).

However, if Legendary mobs are going to further send DCs through the roof like the Archon content, it looks like a DC boost is a must. Since NONE of the Tactical Feats bonuses add to Assassinate, I think this is where assassins are coming from in making sure this doesn't get left out of the update.

[CThruTheEgo]

I agree, and Assassinate DCs don't change that. There is definitely a need for Assassinate DCs in Legendary levels. We do not want Assassins to feel required to take this feat over the others here. We do not want non-Assassin characters to feel this feat isn't for them because they gained Assassinate DCs they can't use. We are not ignoring the desire for Assassinate DCs, but this feat isn't the right place for it.

While I don't agree with your reasoning about why assassinate DCs don't belong there, I am content that you all realize more assassinate DCs will need to be added to the game to keep assassinate useful in the new content.

I will point out that all the other feats have some aspects which will be useless to certain builds. A melee may like the 2d20 acid damage from plane of the earth, but won't use the conjuration DCs; or the d6 positive energy healing on weapon attacks from shadowfell, but probably won't use the DCs, spell power, or negative amp. So there is already a lot of precedent in these feats for effects which have a great attraction for some builds that will get absolutely no use out of the feat's other abilities. I don't really see why adding assassinate DCs to ethereal would make it any different than all the other feats because it would still offer something to other builds.

I'm also not sure that adding assassinate DCs would make it the definitive choice for assassins. It would make it very compelling for sure, but not necessarily definitive. Sky high DCs are only needed for a small portion of content. If you don't plan to play that content, then you'd be better off with the melee power from arborea. Dex based assassins can also get a much higher DC by investing more fully into dex through both enhancements and ED. A build which does so may not need the DCs from this feat and instead prefer more melee power.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that assassinate DCs will not be ignored.

[Mellkor]

I like the idea of replacing displacement while stealthing with bump to assassinate DC as discussed. (I don't really see Scion of the Ethereal Plane as an assassin only(ish) thing either)

If it is not meant to be then how about:

Keep the displacement thing, but make it last 20-30 seconds after you drop out of stealth instead. That will certainly make it more broadly useful.
Losing all aggro (based on say, diplo skill), when dropping into sneak is a great idea. Definitely broadly useful. (definitely the idea I favor the most). This would ad a lot of dimension and game play options for a lot of builds, IMO
Instead of displacement make it a big dodge bonus that also increases dodge cap for, say, 20 seconds after you come out of sneak.


I'd also like to comment on the idea of reducing the sneak damage to hide score ratio:

I don't think it needs to be adjusted. It is on par (or worse) with the other DPS increases via melee power when you look at it as a percentage of DPS increase rather than raw numbers.

[draven1]

Thanks for the feedback so far, folks. We'll be making some adjustments to Scion of the Ethereal Plane, likely reducing the Sneak Attack damage somewhat and replacing the Displacement. If you haven't gotten a chance to check out the new Feats on Lamannia yet, I'd encourage you to do so! Playtest feedback is the most useful feedback in terms of knowing what needs adjustment.

Current Scion of the Ethereal Plane offer LESSOR DPS than 20 melee power. Why will you reduce it?

[FuzzyDuck81]

We'll likely replace it with something more broadly useful, rather than narrowly useful. More on that when we've had time to think about it further.

Constant incorporeal (pass through enemies) effect while sneaking maybe?

[draven1]

Thanks for the feedback so far, folks. We'll be making some adjustments to Scion of the Ethereal Plane, likely reducing the Sneak Attack damage somewhat and replacing the Displacement.


How about stacking 50% more sneak movement? yeah, sneaky classes got some speed buff. But still hungry for more speed.

[bloodnose13]

Changing it to Assasinate DCs has a number of issues, including creating the perception that this feat was "Only for Assassins". Which isn't the case, but that's how things get perceived.

We'll likely replace it with something more broadly useful, rather than narrowly useful. More on that when we've had time to think about it further.

well it could be changed to be a dc boost for all tactics, assasinate included? then it would be usefull ofr assasins while giveing everyone else who uses tactics additional feat possiblity.

[sjbb87]

How about stacking 50% more sneak movement? yeah, sneaky classes got some speed buff. But still hungry for more speed.

so the assassins stealthy faster than walking ...

tested in Lamania with my ranger and legendary feats enjoyed only:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Scion of Limbo
all other did not think were good ...

and depending on the nerf will stay only with Scion of Limbo

My ranger sneak damage at level 30 takes an average of 40 ~ 50 damage.
With Scion of the Ethereal Plane, has risen to 180 on average damage ....

Note my ranger is based on str ... and caught 100 hide. (Always invested in hide because I like the sneaky idea ...)


This feats need a buff....
Scion of Arborea(need more melee power or other bonus to help dps)
Scion of the Astral Plane(need a buff to dc,Doublestrike & Doubleshot,and Dodge cap)

[Kompera_Oberon]

Regarding comments that there's nothing good for melee in the Legendary feats.

That's good to know, but we're not likely to do anything about that unless you elaborate on why you feel that way, and (ideally) let us know what you'd like to see.
I suggested earlier (and haven't stalked dev posts to see if there was a response) that the various cases of:
Add <X Dice> <Type> damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
Should be replaced with (Scales with Melee and Ranged Power) instead.

That would help melee and ranged characters who don't have a blue bar and have no reason (other than these feats) to fill a red augment slot with a <Type> spell power augment instead of, say, a ruby of whatever.

Also, casters have a broad range of feats to select from, and it looks like there is a single, maybe two at the outside, for non-casters to select from. Building in more options for non-casters would go a long way.


I agree, and Assassinate DCs don't change that. There is definitely a need for Assassinate DCs in Legendary levels. We do not want Assassins to feel required to take this feat over the others here. We do not want non-Assassin characters to feel this feat isn't for them because they gained Assassinate DCs they can't use. We are not ignoring the desire for Assassinate DCs, but this feat isn't the right place for it.

You have +spell power in a feat with nothing else but melee items in it. You have +weapon damage in feats with nothing else but caster items in them.

Claiming that one of these feats can't have a single line item that a player might not gain a benefit out of is absurd, given the feats as they stand right now.

[Wongar]

Changing it to Assasinate DCs has a number of issues, including creating the perception that this feat was "Only for Assassins". Which isn't the case, but that's how things get perceived.

We'll likely replace it with something more broadly useful, rather than narrowly useful. More on that when we've had time to think about it further.

I appreciate this response. I for one greatly enjoy stealth play on many characters - not just rouges. I would hate to see this be a feat that only applied to a few specific builds. We already have that with Improved Sneak Attack, never understood why my pure DWS Ranger that invests in sneak to the fullest can't take Improved Sneak Attack.

As you are contemplating the damage from the feat, I'd like to point out that many of the numbers given in this tread claiming the damage is too high are assuming that you always get sneak attack damage. I may be missing something but I don't see any way to get sneak attack damage on every hit. I believe the damage while sneaking should be a bit higher than the standard on hit damage because of this.

[IronClan]

Not to be nit-picking, but the game is based in Eberron and FR now, so FR plane names are fine.


Indeed and not to be even more nit picky, but most of those names were the names of the planes before either Eberron or Forgotten Realms existed. In other words they are the correct choice for a multi setting D&D game.

[Lanadazia]

bards have cc based on perform, why not an assassinate dc based on hide?

thats a very nice idea. if a feat could make assassinate DC hide based, that would put in a nice and fluffy build-option for sneaky rogues. most rogues i see don't sneak at all, and behave more like a fighter



Scion of Limbo intentionally has higher bonuses than the other Legendary Feats. It's powerful, but less predictable.


i don't like the randomness. making it more powerful but less predictable is kinda balanced, but i'd rather like to see it like this:

- the bonuses lowered, but in a set cycle. like the season on druid, just with all the buffs. thats more predictable/useful than a random bonus, hence less powerful (like half the bonus)

or
- the bonuses are random and all have to occur once, before they can occur again. also less powerful but not -50% but something like -20%

[CThruTheEgo]

Constant incorporeal (pass through enemies) effect while sneaking maybe?

Interesting. I like this suggestion. Although I doubt we'll get it because, unlike all the other effects these feats offer, I imagine it would take too much time to code.


bards have cc based on perform, why not an assassinate dc based on hide?


thats a very nice idea. if a feat could make assassinate DC hide based, that would put in a nice and fluffy build-option for sneaky rogues. most rogues i see don't sneak at all, and behave more like a fighter

This idea was discussed at length during the rogue revamp. Sev acknowledged that giving swashbucklers an instakill with a DC based on a skill was a mechanic they were trying but were not going to repeat due to how much it "overperforms."

[Qezuzu]

thats a very nice idea. if a feat could make assassinate DC hide based, that would put in a nice and fluffy build-option for sneaky rogues. most rogues i see don't sneak at all, and behave more like a fighter


bards have cc based on perform, why not an assassinate dc based on hide?

Small nitpick: Rogues do have a CC ability based on a skill (spell traps, i.e. Web and Hypnotic pattern with DC=Disable Device).

But bards do have a insta-kill with a DC based on skill. Why don't Rogues?

This was thoroughly discussed in the Assassin enhancement pass. While it may appear to be "fair" for make Assassinate DC=Hide, most people disapproved. People felt it would cheapen the ability by making it trivial to get a 95% success rate, and that Coup was poorly designed for this reason.

Furthermore, when you assume that Coup and Assassinate's DC are roughly equivalent (95% successful), which is true for everything except a few quests on EE, Assassinate comes out as the superior ability (much shorter cooldown and the mob doesn't have to be CCed).

Steelstar, most decently geared and well-built Assassins will have a DC in the mid-70's. The practical maximum is somewhere just below 80, and this requires a LOT of rare gear (Epic Assassin's Kiss, Epic Litany, Strange Tidings, +6 Tome, etc.), burns one of your twist slots, and requires being in sneak mode for five seconds prior. I do hope you allow Assassinate to be useful in Legendary content. If DC's need to be raised somehow, and it can't be from a Legendary feat, consider tacking it onto Improved Sneak Attack or having Assassinate bonus greater than 6 on a piece of loot.

[IronClan]

So it's probably way to late for this, probably this would have needed to have been brought up on the PC, but here's whats wrong with the legendary feats conceptually:

You're giving us several hunks of math at level 30 which means:


A). you will balance high level content with the feats in mind meaning level 29's will struggle (-20% to land DC's 20 to 40% lower DPS, etc.) or
B). you wont do that, and level 30's will be a faceroll in content that is balanced without the feats in mind, leading to yet more complaining about the lack of challenge.


The inherent "binary" effect this causes is obvious going from level 29 to 30 will be like flicking a switch and people will be complaining like crazy about this one way or another, I know this is already sunk Dev's manhours, and I know that JUST like Warlock when I pointed out what was wrong with it (and was 100% right if I do say I told yah so) what I'm saying will be ignored to the detriment of the game. Either 29's wont want to run content balanced for 30's or 30's wont feel like they have any challenges in the game. Pretty basic really... these feats are a failure of basic design principles and they will harm the game in ways that lead to OTHER bad things (like similarly chunky nerfs)

IMO and yes I know it's too late; it would have been much better to hand out more flavorful and situational and tactical "legendary" feats. Stuff with cooldowns if it's powerful enough, stuff that is stylistic and maybe adds movement or defensive benefits things like this:


Master of translocation: "Lesser teleport" (omni directional abundant step costs 70sp) and your Displacement spell is upgraded by 10%
Eternal Revnant: you gain non stacking 30% incorp and float like wraith form when wearing Light or no armor, melee attacks(vorpals) do stat(neg level) attacks against you have a chance to give neg/stat
Acended, you get permanent wings like the Archons and you levitate like the quest givers in Amrath, and can use leap of faith as a 17 FvS.
Master of speed: appearance is slightly doubled like a non shadowy version of Shadowfell Regalia 20% base speed increase (Same bonuses as Monk/Bard 20 /Rogue 20 (etc) so no stacking with them) haste effects and perma haste give 5% extra alacrity you also gain 5% stacking displacement (as Ranger and does not stack with that).
Wrecking Ball: every 120 seconds you can repeatedly use Dire Charge/Shield Charge with no cooldown, for 15 sconds. Passively: your activated attacks, passive and active shield bashes and Greater cleaves have a permanent 5% chance to knock down random opponents around you.


I find the "hunk of math" design direction you guys have taken to be really off putting. I would like to see more creativity (like Dire charge) and less backing up of dump trucks "+4 DC +200sp +40% spell power etc."

[slarden]

I agree, and Assassinate DCs don't change that. There is definitely a need for Assassinate DCs in Legendary levels. We do not want Assassins to feel required to take this feat over the others here. We do not want non-Assassin characters to feel this feat isn't for them because they gained Assassinate DCs they can't use. We are not ignoring the desire for Assassinate DCs, but this feat isn't the right place for it.

If you want something that applies to more builds, I can accept that, how about it gives your weapons a 5% chance of freezing ice with no save to help ensure sneak damage up-time? Alot of builds like to improve the % of time they get sneak damage - especially rogues.

I also question counting blur as a benefit since I never had a level 28 character without perma-blur and so many items now have lesser displacement.

I still use smoke gs boots on my rogue - 5 sets - with displacement clickies. There could come a day when I can't fit those in, but it's never happened so far.

[Mryal]

I agree, and Assassinate DCs don't change that. There is definitely a need for Assassinate DCs in Legendary levels. We do not want Assassins to feel required to take this feat over the others here. We do not want non-Assassin characters to feel this feat isn't for them because they gained Assassinate DCs they can't use. We are not ignoring the desire for Assassinate DCs, but this feat isn't the right place for it.

Epic Destiny Feats is a good place for that.Just add a different one at lv 29 for +Assassinate DC and some other minor bonus.

[Morroiel]

Love the feats for the most part (especially limbo - especially if it encourages people to try more versatile builds to better utilize the varying effects).

However, I have deep concerns over the caster focused ones (celestia, air, water, earth, fire, shadowfell):

1) I don't see any build/class taking water due to mathematically being worse for damage than fire, being worse in DCs than air/earth/shadowfell, and on par defensively with fire/earth. I'd like to see instead of spell points being increased, a regeneration mechanism similar to echos of power but better. OR scrap the idea of spell points and give it crit chance or an increase to caster levels / max caster levels or something. Either needs a buff in utility or a buff in damage.

2) Shadowfell pigeon holes palemasters into being lower relative dps than even currently (right now they represent one of the lowest, if not, the lowest dps in end game content). While I think there should be a trade off between dc casting and damage (especially for non conj/evoc casters), I do not believe that the trade off should be as large as it is currently (right now being a pale master in doj or deathwyrm feels like cruel and unusual punishment). I'd like to see a smaller damage bump here to offset the opportunity cost of not taking the others. Change the spell power to be like the others 10 negative, 30 universal.

3) You are widening the cap between primary and secondary dcs by an additional 2 (10% in a d20 system). This will only compound the current problems with dc casting in the game. Please consider changing it to +3/+2 or +4/+3 or offering a +3 universal (maybe for water). While I know your aim isn't to fix dc casting with this update, I would hope that you would want to not make it worse.

4) Celestia offers very little for melee - I would suggest changing the +4 will save to something with an on-hit effect (maybe blindness or a similar effect to shadowfell or the elements).

Thanks for reading!

[Thrudh]

Keep the displacement thing, but make it last 20-30 seconds after you drop out of stealth instead. That will certainly make it more broadly useful.
Instead of displacement make it a big dodge bonus that also increases dodge cap for, say, 20 seconds after you come out of sneak.

These won't work unless you want to add a cooldown... Otherwise people will just go in and out of sneak every 20 seconds and gain permanent displacement or dodge.

[Krell]

Thanks for the feedback so far, folks. We'll be making some adjustments to Scion of the Ethereal Plane, likely reducing the Sneak Attack damage somewhat and replacing the Displacement. If you haven't gotten a chance to check out the new Feats on Lamannia yet, I'd encourage you to do so! Playtest feedback is the most useful feedback in terms of knowing what needs adjustment.




That's good to know, but we're not likely to do anything about that unless you elaborate on why you feel that way, and (ideally) let us know what you'd like to see.

Maybe replace blur and displacement with perma lesser displacement.

[Mellkor]

These won't work unless you want to add a cooldown... Otherwise people will just go in and out of sneak every 20 seconds and gain permanent displacement or dodge.

Most rogues (that I run with) already do this (kinda) via other ways. Greensteel clickies + keeping up measure the foe. This would be a logical bump up from that, methinks. Adding in the displacement simply removes the need to clicky all the time, really. Adding to dodge is certainly a bump up also, but seems to me to be on par with what they are doing in other legendary feats.

[draven1]

so the assassins stealthy faster than walking ...



Don't forget traps ONLY slows trapper now. Everyone else just pass through traps while a trapper disabling it.
And need faster sneaking than now, because sneaky types need proper positioning on battle to avoid arrows & cleaving attacks that make getting out of sneak.

[draven1]

Constant incorporeal (pass through enemies) effect while sneaking maybe?

We already have many "pass through enemies when tumble" abilities from shadow form, acrobat enhancement, magister tier 1, shadar-kai enhacement, shadowdragon armor clicky.

How about "shadow jump" for scion of ethereal plane? 10 or 15 sec cooldown, leap of faith like ability, pass through enemies, don't get out of sneak, teleport effect like shadow form tumble effect.

[QuantumFX]

Changing it to Assasinate DCs has a number of issues, including creating the perception that this feat was "Only for Assassins".

Here's how you avoid that: Add assassinate DC boosts to the DC of Executioner's Strike/Shot.

[sjbb87]

Much more concerned about customizing some of the feats.
This....

I know this would work for developers ... but it would be much better if our selves customizing the feats ...
I'd like to follow:

Legendary Feats is no longer is one feat... will be chosen Four feat

Rules:
You can choose more than one feat of one level, however Universal Spell Power does not stack with each other
Feats level 1 stack with level 2
Feats level 2 stack with level 3
....



Legendary Feats Level 1
Requires:level 30


Caster
+10 Acid Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
+10 Electric Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
+10 Fire Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
+10 Cold Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
+10 Sonic Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
+40 Negative Spell Power
+20 Repair & Rust Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power
+200 Maximum Spell Points

DPS/tactical
4 Dodge
+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
6 Doublestrike
Permanent Blur
+2 to all Skills
6 Doubleshot
2 to the Enhancement Bonus of your weapon

Tank
20 PRR
+20 MRR
4 to Reflex Saves.
+4 to Fortitude Saves
4 to Will Saves

summoners

Summoned creatures gain +20 MP, RP, and USP
Summoned creatures gain +25 PRR and MRR
Summoned creatures gain +100% Fortification
Summoned creatures gain a 5% chance to ignore incoming damage entirely. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.



Legendary Feats Level 2
Requires:level 30, feat Legendary Feat Level 1



Add 2d20 Acid damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
Add 2d20 Electric damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
Add 2d20 Fire damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
Add 2d20 Cold damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
Add 2d20 Sonic damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
4 to Dodge Cap
+10 PRR, +10 MRR
+20 Healing Amp
+20 Negative Amp (assuming you take healing from Negative)
20 Repair Amplification (assuming you take healing from Repair)
4 to Tactical Feat DCs
4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot.


Legendary Feats Level 3
Requires:level 30, feat Legendary Feat Level 2



2 to the DCs of Conjuration spells
2 to the DCs of Evocation spells
2 to the DCs of Enchantment spells
2 to the DCs of Necromancy spells
Weapon and Unarmed attacks heal you for 1d6 Positive damage
Weapon and Unarmed attacks heal 1d6 Negative damage if you are Undead
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect
+50 Maximum Hit Points
20 Melee and Ranged Power


Legendary Feats Level 4
Requires:level 30, feat Legendary Feat Level 3




Gain: Master Reconstruction, shares cooldown with Communion of Scribing
+10% Fortification Bypass on weapon and unarmed attacks
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to the DCs all spells
+25% Spell Critical Damage with all spells
+30% Crit Damage with Positive, Light, & Alignment spells
+100 Maximum Hit Points



This is more fun ...


And at level 4 can add more powerful class skills ...
As DC for assassins
extra rage for barbarians ...
Bane damage to favored enemy
etc....

[Ayseifn]

Thanks for the feedback so far, folks. We'll be making some adjustments to Scion of the Ethereal Plane, likely reducing the Sneak Attack damage somewhat and replacing the Displacement. If you haven't gotten a chance to check out the new Feats on Lamannia yet, I'd encourage you to do so! Playtest feedback is the most useful feedback in terms of knowing what needs adjustment.

Is Scion of the Ethereal Plane really over performing or is it more of a Legendary Dreadnought issue? I don't really think it's a problem if it's the best for classes with access to full hide ranks plus other hide buffs, if 20 paladins, barbs and whatnot go for it then sure. Honestly though I think that may be more of an issue with Legendary Dreadnought than Ethereal Plane, that huge Melee Power boost from LD really does skew things where SA gets 1.5x scaling.


Most of the complaints so far have been focusing on Rogue or Ranger builds and mostly assuming Legendary Dreadnought as the Epic Destiny. Would love to see some numbers for other post pass classes using different Epic Destinies and different Legendary Feats, I ran the numbers for my gimpish paladin vs mostly geared rogue and in Divine Crusader the paladin got more from Feywild(sonic damage) than the rogue got from Ethereal Plane in absolute terms. Paladin had a higher base damage while the rogue did have a higher spike from the epic moment which seems fine, that epic moment can't be kept at maximum all the time and rogues having higher burst compared to a paladins higher base damage is somewhat fine.

Didn't run the numbers for the +20MP feat though, if +20MP which works vs everything and scales up other things like base damage beats out hide/2 Sneak Attack dmg from Ethereal Plane then I don't see anyone really using Ethereal Plane unless whatever other, non DPS changes you have in mind are worthwhile.

[Nightmanis]

We already have many "pass through enemies when tumble" abilities from shadow form, acrobat enhancement, magister tier 1, shadar-kai enhacement, shadowdragon armor clicky.

How about "shadow jump" for scion of ethereal plane? 10 or 15 sec cooldown, leap of faith like ability, pass through enemies, don't get out of sneak, teleport effect like shadow form tumble effect.

What about the old school deception? Not improved deception, not deception vii, just deception?

[SirValentine]

I know this would work for developers ... but it would be much better if our selves customizing the feats ...
I'd like to follow:

Legendary Feats is no longer is one feat... will be chosen Four feat

Rules:
You can choose more than one feat of one level, however Universal Spell Power does not stack with each other
Feats level 1 stack with level 2
Feats level 2 stack with level 3
....


Not going to quote the whole thing, but I think something along the line of what you propose would work better.

Easier to balance, easier to add more options, easier to make sure all sorts of builds (even the ones that don't exist!) are covered.

Easier for players to avoid that feeling of "I'm wasting 3/4 of my only Legendary feat because they come in specific bundles, and the one part I really want comes bundled with a bunch of **** that's useless to me, while the one that has a variety of useful things for me doesn't have the key thing I want most!"

[amsharkwei]

Improved Sneak Attack:+3D6 sneak attack damage.
This Feat need leavel 12 rogue as a requirement, so this is a "rogue only"feat
we can add assassnate DC into this Feat!

Improved Sneak Attack:
Requires: Rogue class level 12
Requires: DEX 21
+3D6 sneak attack damage.
Add assassnate DC equal to your epic level(max +10)

this change can also made assassnate DC became linear growth in epic level
@Developer

[draven1]

Improved Sneak Attack:+3D6 sneak attack damage.
This Feat need leavel 12 rogue as a requirement, so this is a "rogue only"feat
we can add assassnate DC into this Feat!

Improved Sneak Attack:
Requires: Rogue class level 12
Requires: DEX 21
+3D6 sneak attack damage.
Add assassnate DC equal to your epic level(max +10)

this change can also made assassnate DC became linear growth in epic level
@Developer

Brilliant!

[CThruTheEgo]

I know this would work for developers ... but it would be much better if our selves customizing the feats ...

This a solid idea. Not only does it allow players to choose what they want, but it would lead to much more build diversity due to the customizable nature. Make it happen devs.

/signed.


Improved Sneak Attack:+3D6 sneak attack damage.
This Feat need leavel 12 rogue as a requirement, so this is a "rogue only"feat
we can add assassnate DC into this Feat!

Improved Sneak Attack:
Requires: Rogue class level 12
Requires: DEX 21
+3D6 sneak attack damage.
Add assassnate DC equal to your epic level(max +10)

this change can also made assassnate DC became linear growth in epic level
@Developer

I love it! Very well thought out.

/signed.

[amsharkwei]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane

You are Permanent Displacement, and you can absorb energy from ethereal Plane, while sneaking, you heal 1D6 HP per sec.
+50 point of Sneak Attack damage(yes, this feat is not rogue only, also for those class don't have Hide skill)
+5 to all Skills
Now, being hitted no longer break your sneaking.
You move more faster in shadow, +40% movement speed while sneaking. and no longer -20 jump while sneaking.
Shadow might is protecting you, while sneaking absorb 30% income element damage.
You are much more deadly in shadow, while sneaking your attack no longer automatic miss when you roll 1.

[Saekee]

Improved Sneak Attack:+3D6 sneak attack damage.
This Feat need leavel 12 rogue as a requirement, so this is a "rogue only"feat
we can add assassnate DC into this Feat!

Improved Sneak Attack:
Requires: Rogue class level 12
Requires: DEX 21
+3D6 sneak attack damage.
Add assassnate DC equal to your epic level(max +10)

this change can also made assassnate DC became linear growth in epic level
@Developer

/signed

[Saekee]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane

You are Permanent Displacement, and you can absorb energy from ethereal Plane, while sneaking, you heal 1D6 HP per sec.
+50 point of Sneak Attack damage(yes, this feat is not rogue only, also for those class don't have Hide skill)
+5 to all Skills
Now, being hitted no longer break your sneaking.
You move more faster in shadow, +40% movement speed while sneaking. and no longer -20 jump while sneaking.
Shadow might is protecting you, while sneaking absorb 30% income element damage.
You are much more deadly in shadow, while sneaking your attack no longer automatic miss when you roll 1.

interesting

[Saekee]

This....

I know this would work for developers ... but it would be much better if our selves customizing the feats ...
I'd like to follow:

Legendary Feats is no longer is one feat... will be chosen Four feat

Rules:
You can choose more than one feat of one level, however Universal Spell Power does not stack with each other
Feats level 1 stack with level 2
Feats level 2 stack with level 3
....



Legendary Feats Level 1
Requires:level 30


Caster
+10 Acid Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
+10 Electric Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
+10 Fire Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
+10 Cold Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
+10 Sonic Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
+40 Negative Spell Power
+20 Repair & Rust Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power
+200 Maximum Spell Points

DPS/tactical
4 Dodge
+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
6 Doublestrike
Permanent Blur
+2 to all Skills
6 Doubleshot
2 to the Enhancement Bonus of your weapon

Tank
20 PRR
+20 MRR
4 to Reflex Saves.
+4 to Fortitude Saves
4 to Will Saves

summoners

Summoned creatures gain +20 MP, RP, and USP
Summoned creatures gain +25 PRR and MRR
Summoned creatures gain +100% Fortification
Summoned creatures gain a 5% chance to ignore incoming damage entirely. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.



Legendary Feats Level 2
Requires:level 30, feat Legendary Feat Level 1



Add 2d20 Acid damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
Add 2d20 Electric damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
Add 2d20 Fire damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
Add 2d20 Cold damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
Add 2d20 Sonic damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
4 to Dodge Cap
+10 PRR, +10 MRR
+20 Healing Amp
+20 Negative Amp (assuming you take healing from Negative)
20 Repair Amplification (assuming you take healing from Repair)
4 to Tactical Feat DCs
4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot.


Legendary Feats Level 3
Requires:level 30, feat Legendary Feat Level 2



2 to the DCs of Conjuration spells
2 to the DCs of Evocation spells
2 to the DCs of Enchantment spells
2 to the DCs of Necromancy spells
Weapon and Unarmed attacks heal you for 1d6 Positive damage
Weapon and Unarmed attacks heal 1d6 Negative damage if you are Undead
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect
+50 Maximum Hit Points
20 Melee and Ranged Power


Legendary Feats Level 4
Requires:level 30, feat Legendary Feat Level 3




Gain: Master Reconstruction, shares cooldown with Communion of Scribing
+10% Fortification Bypass on weapon and unarmed attacks
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to the DCs all spells
+25% Spell Critical Damage with all spells
+30% Crit Damage with Positive, Light, & Alignment spells
+100 Maximum Hit Points



This is more fun ...


And at level 4 can add more powerful class skills ...
As DC for assassins
extra rage for barbarians ...
Bane damage to favored enemy
etc....

intriguing, maybe too late--almost mimics weapon upgrades!

[Nightmanis]

Improved Sneak Attack:+3D6 sneak attack damage.
This Feat need leavel 12 rogue as a requirement, so this is a "rogue only"feat
we can add assassnate DC into this Feat!

Improved Sneak Attack:
Requires: Rogue class level 12
Requires: DEX 21
+3D6 sneak attack damage.
Add assassnate DC equal to your epic level(max +10)

this change can also made assassnate DC became linear growth in epic level
@Developer

Just yes. Just all of my yes.

There you go Varg and Steel. There's your solution.

[Erofen]

Improved Sneak Attack:+3D6 sneak attack damage.
This Feat need leavel 12 rogue as a requirement, so this is a "rogue only"feat
we can add assassnate DC into this Feat!

Improved Sneak Attack:
Requires: Rogue class level 12
Requires: DEX 21
+3D6 sneak attack damage.
Add assassnate DC equal to your epic level(max +10)

this change can also made assassnate DC became linear growth in epic level
@Developer
/Signed

[Silverleafeon]

Just yes. Just all of my yes.

There you go Varg and Steel. There's your solution.

I can support this.

Variation ~ if coding problems exist with per epic level, then try a static like +6ish+ or the like.

[fangblackhawk]

***Please make sure you have read this thread first, it contains an overview of Update 29 Feats.*** (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467837-Update-29-Feats-Overview)


At level 30 you will get a choice of one Legendary Feat. These feats are stronger than most of your standard feats, and pull their power from different planes. To help round power levels in upper Epic, a lot of these feats are meant to be a little more powerful for characters that have built for versatility; most of them include parts useful to many kinds of players.




Scion of the Plane of Earth

+4 to the DCs of Conjuration spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
+20 PRR
+10 Acid Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
Add 2d20 Acid damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)




Scion of the Plane of Air

+4 to the DCs of Evocation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
+4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap
+10 Electric Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
Add 2d20 Electric damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)




Scion of the Plane of Fire

+25% Spell Critical Damage with all spells
+10 PRR, +10 MRR
+10 Fire Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
Add 2d20 Fire damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)




Scion of the Plane of Water

+200 Maximum Spell Points
+20 MRR
+10 Cold Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
Add 2d20 Cold damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)




Scion of the Feywild

+10 Sonic Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
+4 to the DCs of Enchantment spells, +2 to DCs of other spells
Add 2d20 Sonic damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
+20 Healing Amp




Scion of the Shadowfell

+4 to the DCs of Necromancy spells, +2 to DCs of other spells
+40 Negative Spell Power
+20 Negative Amp (assuming you take healing from Negative)
Weapon and Unarmed attacks heal you for 1d6 Positive damage, or 1d6 Negative damage if you are Undead.




Scion of the Ethereal Plane

Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect




Scion of the Astral Plane

+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.




Scion of Mechanus

+20 Repair & Rust Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+20 Repair Amplification (assuming you take healing from Repair)
+10% Fortification Bypass on weapon and unarmed attacks
Gain: Master Reconstruction, shares cooldown with Communion of Scribing




Scion of Celestia

+20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+30% Crit Damage with Positive, Light, & Alignment spells
+150 Maximum Hit Points
+4 to Will Saves




Scion of Elysium

Summoned creatures gain +25 PRR and MRR
Summoned creatures gain +20 MP, RP, and USP
Summoned creatures gain +100% Fortification
Summoned creatures gain a 5% chance to ignore incoming damage entirely. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.




Scion of Arborea

+20 Melee and Ranged Power
+20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power
+2 to the Enhancement Bonus of your weapon
+4 to Fortitude Saves




Scion of Limbo

+2 Determination Bonus to all Saves
eight buffs, each one minute long. Cycles randomly.

+40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power
+16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot, +20% Spell Crit Damage
+30 PRR and MRR
+20% Dodge and +40 Healing Amp
+20 DR /Law
Your weapon/unarmed strikes and spells deal 1d20 Chaos Damage
Each time you would be damaged, you have a +5% chance to completely ignore the damage. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.
Confetti explodes around your shoulders. Festive!





um my caster loves this list, :)


...
..
.

my pure melle barb (trapper) is stuck with a batch of spell power or displacment...... how about a couple mellee/ranged/defencive mixes of feats that dont involve spell power or sneak attacks?

[GeoffWatson]

Not to be nit-picking, but the game is based in Eberron and FR now, so FR plane names are fine.

But they aren't FR names for the planes, they are Greyhawk plane names.

[amsharkwei]

But they aren't FR names for the planes, they are Greyhawk plane names.

ok, but we are not discus the name. any name is fine, we just need the effect

[lyrecono]

um my caster loves this list, :)


...
..
.

my pure melle barb (trapper) is stuck with a batch of spell power or displacment...... how about a couple mellee/ranged/defencive mixes of feats that dont involve spell power or sneak attacks?

i tried to make that clear to the dev's in this thread, no response though

[Hoglum]

So it's probably way to late for this, probably this would have needed to have been brought up on the PC, but here's whats wrong with the legendary feats conceptually:

You're giving us several hunks of math at level 30 which means:


A). you will balance high level content with the feats in mind meaning level 29's will struggle (-20% to land DC's 20 to 40% lower DPS, etc.) or
B). you wont do that, and level 30's will be a faceroll in content that is balanced without the feats in mind, leading to yet more complaining about the lack of challenge.



I find the "hunk of math" design direction you guys have taken to be really off putting. I would like to see more creativity (like Dire charge) and less backing up of dump trucks "+4 DC +200sp +40% spell power etc."


This in a big way. I find it perplexing in a game where people are looking to encourage grouping that the developers would drive another wedge between players. This design screams "level 30's only" allowed into whatever content is planned for this. People playing lv 28/29 characters may not want to join with 30's since they'll feel underpowered while lv 30's may not want 28/29's in their group since they'll be relatively gimped.

Try defining "legendary" as 28-30 and spread the power out a little. This would allow people who wish to stay at lv 30 to pick up people who would rather tr/etr and raid/play with them.

Having a huge power discrepancy between players only 1 level apart seems... bad.

[lyrecono]

Since we didn't get pure melee feats, can we use this feat slot for a epic destiny feat or normal feat?

[Noircere]

Scion of Celestia

+20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
+30% Crit Damage with Positive, Light, & Alignment spells
+150 Maximum Hit Points
+4 to Will Saves



Holy lord, Warlocks will be even more OP than they were at the height of their OPness. Also +60 uSP just for reaching lv30. And that +150 uSP 30sec/3min feat. Will we be seeing 6-digit warlock crits now? I remember I broke the 30k barrier at lv27 a few lives back.

[Silverleafeon]

Since we didn't get pure melee feats, can we use this feat slot for a epic destiny feat or normal feat?

I saw somewhere in one of these thread, legendary feats can slot a normal feat.
(Highly unlikely it will slot an epic destiny feat.)

[draven1]

Holy lord, Warlocks will be even more OP than they were at the height of their OPness. Also +60 uSP just for reaching lv30. And that +150 uSP 30sec/3min feat. Will we be seeing 6-digit warlock crits now? I remember I broke the 30k barrier at lv27 a few lives back.

Not just 150, warlocks gain 285+60 spell power. Devs didn't learn anything from last mistakes :(

[lyrecono]

I saw somewhere in one of these thread, legendary feats can slot a normal feat.
(Highly unlikely it will slot an epic destiny feat.)

it will have to do i guess, these feats are lacking for melee's, they are the gobot versions of feats while the casters get the full benefit of a MP series .

i don't want to be seen with one of those, can you imagine the conversations when this goes life?

120+ caster toons in guild; wow these feats are so amazingly strong, we're so happy now, what did you take?
me; well the only choice i had was the 20mp on all 4 of my mains.....
120+ caster toons in guild; wow, 20 mp in 1 feat, thats nice, what else was in there?
Me, some caster stuff that i can't use.....
120+ caster toons in guild; wow, you really got a ****** choice between a small selection of hand me down feats.
me; yeah, i guess so, i feel embarrassed carrying this thing around :(
120+ caster toons in guild; awww, btw wanne run something new? or ToEE2?
me; nah, it's been a pot fest since they nerfed armors, i refuse to play a class that is dependent on store pots due to balance issues
120+ caster toons in guild; ohhh, but Sheilla and john are playing healers
me; no they are playing a caster and battle fvs, they are not healers, anyways, no worries, i'll tr into heroics or level some bank toon for more slots
120+ caster toons in guild; whell, why don't you tr into a monchker?
me; because i want to play a melee, if i want to pew pew, i'll go and build one, i refuse to change my entire play style over some design flaws, i'll just do the same thing i did when melee's got screwed over in the past, avoid unbalanced content until ddo comes of it's lazy ass and set things straight, like they did with the armor up update (that's roughly a year between armor up and armor down, with 2 years of terribly bad content for melee's preceding it, actually not bad for turbine, to bad they had to screw up by removing mrr from armor)

[bbcjoke]

Scion of the Plane of Fire

+25% Spell Critical Damage with all spells



(https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467837-Update-29-Feats-Overview)

Really?

[Nightmanis]

it will have to do i guess, these feats are lacking for melee's, they are the gobot versions of feats while the casters get the full benefit of a MP series .

i don't want to be seen with one of those, can you imagine the conversations when this goes life?

120+ caster toons in guild; wow these feats are so amazingly strong, we're so happy now, what did you take?
me; well the only choice i had was the 20mp on all 4 of my mains.....
120+ caster toons in guild; wow, 20 mp in 1 feat, thats nice, what else was in there?
Me, some caster stuff that i can't use.....
120+ caster toons in guild; wow, you really got a ****** choice between a small selection of hand me down feats.
me; yeah, i guess so, i feel embarrassed carrying this thing around :(
120+ caster toons in guild; awww, btw wanne run something new? or ToEE2?
me; nah, it's been a pot fest since they nerfed armors, i refuse to play a class that is dependent on store pots due to balance issues
120+ caster toons in guild; ohhh, but Sheilla and john are playing healers
me; no they are playing a caster and battle fvs, they are not healers, anyways, no worries, i'll tr into heroics or level some bank toon for more slots
120+ caster toons in guild; whell, why don't you tr into a monchker?
me; because i want to play a melee, if i want to pew pew, i'll go and build one, i refuse to change my entire play style over some design flaws, i'll just do the same thing i did when melee's got screwed over in the past, avoid unbalanced content until ddo comes of it's lazy ass and set things straight, like they did with the armor up update (that's roughly a year between armor up and armor down, with 2 years of terribly bad content for melee's preceding it, actually not bad for turbine, to bad they had to screw up by removing mrr from armor)

Are you running 4 barbs or what? I'm looking at Arborea and thinking hey that would boost my healing and damage in DC, Def boost my healing with cocoon, and basically doubles the benefit of the ToEE set on dual wielders. If they leave Ethereal the same it's going to be a decent benefit for dual wielders, especially dex builds. I'm actually looking at the Scion of fire and questioning what I can boost it too since fire spell power is pretty easy to come by.

We can all agree that Astral is pretty weak, which hopefully is going to be fixed here soon. Well see how it looks after.

And heck, limbo might just be fun to have for whatever random buff it gives. Unpredictability makes for a more interesting gaming experience.

[lyrecono]

i'm complaining about these feats because most of them are caster orientated:

caster feats: 8
rog feat: 1
toaster feat: 1 (also usable by casters)

somewhat melee orientated feats:2
of which 1 of them gives force spellpower (making it a warlock/elderich knight feat in reality)
and the other seems to be geared towards monks but doesn't adress the gapping open wound of a problem all monks face these days, the lack of prr to go toe to toe in melee

that is why i suggested changing the force spellpower on Scion of Arborea to mrr, this would help a lot of melee's out in the newer content and, change the +4 dodge on Scion of the Astral Plane to 20/25 prr to help out monks

[Steelstar]

of which 1 of them gives force spellpower (making it a warlock/elderich knight feat in reality)


By that logic, the Air/Earth/Fire/Water feats all give damage on weapon hits, which makes them Melee feats in reality. (It isn't good logic, though.)



and the other seems to be geared towards monks but doesn't adress the gapping open wound of a problem all monks face these days, the lack of prr to go toe to toe in melee


These feats aren't supposed to address the problems with anything, let alone monks. They are meant to be new options as you reach new levels we haven't been to yet. It's not meant to be a Monk-exclusive feat either. Like we said in the first post of this thread, a lot of these feats are going to be stronger for those who have built toward versatility. And every one of them has at least one thing that could, depending on your exact build, be useful on a Melee character.

[lyrecono]

By that logic, the Air/Earth/Fire/Water feats all give damage on weapon hits, which makes them Melee feats in reality. (It isn't good logic, though.)
weapon damage boosted by spellpower, wich is boosted by caster feats and skills.....
You just defeated your own argument.....


These feats aren't supposed to address the problems with anything, let alone monks. They are meant to be new options as you reach new levels we haven't been to yet. It's not meant to be a Monk-exclusive feat either. Like we said in the first post of this thread, a lot of these feats are going to be stronger for those who have built toward versatility. And every one of them has at least one thing that could, depending on your exact build, be useful on a Melee character.

like i said, 8 are caster orientated, 2 are somewhat melee orientated but 1 still has caster components and 1 is somwhat use impaired to most melee's

Are you saying you don't see to which side the scale is tipping?

[lyrecono]

By that logic, the Air/Earth/Fire/Water feats all give damage on weapon hits, which makes them Melee feats in reality. (It isn't good logic, though.)



These feats aren't supposed to address the problems with anything, let alone monks. They are meant to be new options as you reach new levels we haven't been to yet. It's not meant to be a Monk-exclusive feat either. Like we said in the first post of this thread, a lot of these feats are going to be stronger for those who have built toward versatility. And every one of them has at least one thing that could, depending on your exact build, be useful on a Melee character.

i called it a monk feat because for the frontline melee's, a investment in str is cruicial, paladins, barbs and fighters have enough ways to trip/stun/etc mobs, they often wear heavy armor too, so the dodge is useless to them, as is the doublestrike, since the 3 previous 3 classes rely heavy on cleaves(2 of them even gain cleaves in class enh), making doublestrike useless, and last, you added double strike when unarmed, making this geared to monks and monk druids at best

[Iriale]

like i said, 8 are caster orientated, 2 are somewhat melee orientated but 1 still has caster components and 1 is somwhat use impaired to most melee's

Are you saying you don't see to which side the scale is tipping?
melees have less stats than casters. With a caster is a nightmare to get a baseline in spell DC and spell dps when the actual game is all about specialization.

[lyrecono]

melees have less stats than casters. With a caster is a nightmare to get a baseline in spell DC and spell dps when the actual game is all about specialization.

melee's don't need skills?
No umd for buffs/healing?
No repair/healing spell power?
No intimidation?
No balance to get up from cometfalls&trips?
Some haggle to make money for the huge repair bills

Melee's don't need an absurd amount of hp to survive from heal to heal?
They don't need a huge str to avoid trips, shorten enemy web duration, to do damage, hit stuff, ect
They don't need wisdom for the annoying will save spell spamming caster mobs?
they don't need charisma for saves/intimidate/umd?

They don't need to switch weapons for repair/heal spell power/heal amp all the time?
DR breakers....(omg so much dr types)

how about geting enough mrr and prr
how about getting enough dr?
how about getting enough ac adn or dodge?
How about getting enoughsr and fortification? a 100 isn't good enough in a long whille
how about spellpoints to cast ED based heals?

I'm sorry but you're not the only one juggling stats here

[Iriale]

melee's don't need skills?
No umd for buffs/healing?
No repair/healing spell power?
No intimidation?
No balance to get up from cometfalls&trips?
Some haggle to make money for the huge repair bills

Melee's don't need an absurd amount of hp to survive from heal to heal?
They don't need a huge str to avoid trips, shorten enemy web duration, to do damage, hit stuff, ect
They don't need wisdom for the annoying will save spell spamming caster mobs?
they don't need charisma for saves/intimidate/umd?

They don't need to switch weapons for repair/heal spell power/heal amp all the time?
DR breakers....(omg so much dr types)

how about geting enough mrr and prr
how about getting enough dr?
how about getting enough ac adn or dodge?
How about getting enoughsr and fortification? a 100 isn't good enough in a long whille
how about spellpoints to cast ED based heals?

I'm sorry but you're not the only one juggling stats here
melees have better defences the casters nowadays. A lot better. Caster too need defences (spells are useless nowdays for this x_x ) and they are not getting good defences with these feats.

I don't say that they don't deserve melee feats, but you can't judge about the relative number. With melee dps, for example, a melee is all about crit and melee power and a little of fort bypass. In the caster world is needed add DC in 8 schools, spellpower in a lot of energies (there are 4 elemental types, pos, neg, light, aligment, force), spell crit in the same 9 energies, and spell penetration. That is a lot more of possibles stats than melees. A light spellpower or spell crit is useless for arcanes, but not for divines, etc.

The number of feats is not because the melees are being discriminated. Is about the variety of spell types and the over-specializacion that the current game requires to magic users. Believe me, I prefer more generalist caster feats and that the specialization is given by the spells know/prepared. But the actual game is all about crazy specializations.

[mikarddo]

i'm complaining about these feats because most of them are caster orientated:

caster feats: 8
rog feat: 1
toaster feat: 1 (also usable by casters)


Where you see the 8 caster feats as an advantage I see them them as the opposite. Adding to special schools for casting rather than adding to add schools simply means a lack of versatility. To compare one melee feat would need to apply just to swords, another to maces and hammers etc until you have 8 feats - that ofc would not be a sign of something better but worse

[Nightmanis]

like i said, 8 are caster orientated, 2 are somewhat melee orientated but 1 still has caster components and 1 is somwhat use impaired to most melee's

Are you saying you don't see to which side the scale is tipping?

The spell power of the feat itself boosts the damage that the feat does. They also give some kind of defensive benefit that all classes can use. Fire gives both mrr and prr, for instance. Not to mention the bulk of the spellpower is universal which raises positive spellpower too.

Truthfully, the only thing that doesn't benefit a melee build in this instance is the specific caster buff.

Out of those 8 caster feats, 5 (fire, air, earth, water and sonic) have bonuses where 50% are overall bonuses, 25% are caster specific and 25% are melee specific. You could even argue that water is 100% melee friendly.

The 2 melee oriented feats are heavily melee focused but in ways that can benefit non melee. Would I like to see the arborea spellpower be a 10/30 setup like the others? Absolutely. Hopefully steel and them will change it.

Not every feat is a cut and dry one way or the highway. And it's good that way.

Maybe I want the prr from Earth for my rogue. I'll wear the dissolution bracers to bolster my damage on top of the defense benefit and now my cocoons hit harder. Seems like a decent combo to me.

[lyrecono]

melees have better defences the casters nowadays. A lot better. Caster too need defences (spells are useless nowdays for this x_x ) and they are not getting good defences with these feats.

I don't say that they don't deserve melee feats, but you can't judge about the relative number. With melee dps, for example, a melee is all about crit and melee power and a little of fort bypass. In the caster world is needed add DC in 8 schools, spellpower in a lot of energies (there are 4 elemental types, pos, neg, light, aligment, force), spell crit in the same 9 energies, and spell penetration. That is a lot more of possibles stats than melees. A light spellpower or spell crit is useless for arcanes, but not for divines, etc.

The number of feats is not because the melees are being discriminated. Is about the variety of spell types and the over-specializacion that the current game requires to magic users. Believe me, I prefer more generalist caster feats and that the specialization is given by the spells know/prepared. But the actual game is all about crazy specializations.

since (raw spellcasting) dps is governed by spellpower, a high int is common on caster, creating plenty of skillpoints for those skills
why would a spellcaster need a good dc in 8 schools?
Since when are displacement and blurr useless? i agree on some of the low level buffs, but those were obsolete before the cap was 20
Divine casters can equip heavy armor and even equip orbs and shields to help defenses, come to think of it, arcanes can too

Why oversimplify melee dps? aren't you skipping the plethora of weapons melee's need to drag along? dr breakers, spell power, melee dc weapons, absorption items, heal amp secondary gs weapon, etc

anyways, it's still 8:1:1:2:random effect feat.
on a bunch of my toons i don't even have a choice, the 20 melee power is a lesser of 2 evils
a feat that seems to be engineered for elderich knight, the spell power fits perfectly, for them, the melee power too, even the safe bonus complements their weak point.

i don't care if they get 8 feats (technically 10)

I would like to see a melee variant, something that offers something useful in all aspects instead 20 mp and 3 things geared towards melee wizards

[lyrecono]

Where you see the 8 caster feats as an advantage I see them them as the opposite. Adding to special schools for casting rather than adding to add schools simply means a lack of versatility. To compare one melee feat would need to apply just to swords, another to maces and hammers etc until you have 8 feats - that ofc would not be a sign of something better but worse

you mean like weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical?
all come in slashing, blud, piercing, ranged, etc

[Nightmanis]

you mean like weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical?
all come in slashing, blud, piercing, ranged, etc

That I take and stack the mp bonuses? Or did they nerfed it so bludgeon won't help Pierce anymore?

[Iriale]

since (raw spellcasting) dps is governed by spellpower, a high int is common on caster, creating plenty of skillpoints for those skills
why would a spellcaster need a good dc in 8 schools?
Since when are displacement and blurr useless? i agree on some of the low level buffs, but those were obsolete before the cap was 20
Divine casters can equip heavy armor and even equip orbs and shields to help defenses, come to think of it, arcanes can too

Why oversimplify melee dps? aren't you skipping the plethora of weapons melee's need to drag along? dr breakers, spell power, melee dc weapons, absorption items, heal amp secondary gs weapon, etc

anyways, it's still 8:1:1:2:random effect feat.
on a bunch of my toons i don't even have a choice, the 20 melee power is a lesser of 2 evils
a feat that seems to be engineered for elderich knight, the spell power fits perfectly, for them, the melee power too, even the safe bonus complements their weak point.

i don't care if they get 8 feats (technically 10)

I would like to see a melee variant, something that offers something useful in all aspects instead 20 mp and 3 things geared towards melee wizards
There are generalist casters (prepared casters, and specially wizards) whose advantage is the access to a higher variety of spells. When you restrict these casters to 1 or 2 schools you are negating their advantage. Today the gap between the specialist school and the others is too huge.

Anyway these feats are not generalists, are specialist feats: for this reason there are many. If devs have to contemplate the specialization in a school (to choose from a lot of schools), the specialization in a spellpower (to choose from 9 energy types) and a dps focus over a DC focus, they have to do more casters feats, it's not hard to understand. But for a caster are not better than the melees ones for a melee.

I am not oversimplifing melee dps. Weapons are not covered by epics feats. You can grind for gear and take a heroic feats for improved crits. These feats cover the important melee stats. Hey, there are not in these list either a feat that cover all caster stats. There are a list because there are a lot of stats in which a caster can specialize.

Displacement and blur as spells? meh. There are a lot of items with these effects. Greater heroism? avalaible in item. Haste? avalaible in item. Prot vs energy? a absortion item is better. Resist energy? augment or items. And items don't cost sp and they are not dispellable.

You can't complain of the state of melee nowadays, the are very pampered. And these feats are nor better for melee than casters.

[mikarddo]

you mean like weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical?
all come in slashing, blud, piercing, ranged, etc

None of which have any relevans here as they are not included in the feats.

Caster feats: One has +4 dc to evoc, another +4 dc to necro etc. One has +cold, another +repair etc. This results in many, weaker feats than simply having 1 feat that adds +4 DC to all schools and +universal.

Melee feat: + doublestrike adds to add types of weapons. + melee power similarly. Thus fewer feats. One could make multiple weaker feats by splitting these effects up based on weapon or damage type to achieve what you are seeing for casters.

So, your complaint is flat out misguided as far as I am concerned. Fewer, but stronger feats that consolidate rather than split up power is more desireable not less.

[lyrecono]

That I take and stack the mp bonuses? Or did they nerfed it so bludgeon won't help Pierce anymore?

the mp does, the focus/specialisation and impr critticl doesn't, and thats the meat and patatoes of those feats, noboddy sane would take all those feats without running the risk of willingly gimping himself


There are generalist casters (prepared casters, and specially wizards) whose advantage is the access to a higher variety of spells. When you restrict these casters to 1 or 2 schools you are negating their advantage. Today the gap between the specialist school and the others is too huge. just like pnp? just like when the cap was 20 and nobody had past life feats to fill in the gap?

Anyway these feats are not generalists, are specialist feats: for this reason there are many. i fully understant and support it, all i was asking for was a melee feat or 2 instead of hand me downs

If devs have to contemplate the specialization in a school (to choose from a lot of schools), the specialization in a spellpower (to choose from 9 energy types) and a dps focus over a DC focus, they have to do more casters feats, it's not hard to understand. But for a caster are not better than the melees ones for a melee.

I am not oversimplifing melee dps. Weapons are not covered by epics feats. You can grind for gear and take a heroic feats for improved crits. These feats cover the important melee stats. Hey, there are not in these list either a feat that cover all caster stats. There are a list because there are a lot of stats in which a caster can specialize.

Displacement and blur as spells? meh. There are a lot of items with these effects. Greater heroism? avalaible in item. Haste? avalaible in item. Prot vs energy? a absortion item is better. Resist energy? augment or items. And items don't cost sp and they are not dispellable.
Yet they are harder to dispel then clickies, last longer, don't waste item slots, require less grinding and can be gained at a lower level, it's called a trade off

You can't complain of the state of melee nowadays, the are very pampered. And these feats are nor better for melee than casters.
i'm not complaining about the state of melee's in general, i'm complaining about is that i have to grind out 3.15 million exp for the "luxury" of having to pick between a pathetic melee feat and a elderich knight caster hand me down.




None of which have any relevans here as they are not included in the feats.
missing the point that we were talking about having to specialize, fighters do the same thing

Caster feats: One has +4 dc to evoc, another +4 dc to necro etc. One has +cold, another +repair etc. This results in many, weaker feats than simply having 1 feat that adds +4 DC to all schools and +universal.

Melee feat: + doublestrike adds to add types of weapons. + melee power similarly. Thus fewer feats. One could make multiple weaker feats by splitting these effects up based on weapon or damage type to achieve what you are seeing for casters.

So, your complaint is flat out misguided as far as I am concerned. Fewer, but stronger feats that consolidate rather than split up power is more desireable not less.

Missing the points that doublestrike is wasted on a large chunk of the pure melee's, it doesn't work on cleaves, cleaves that are in the enh tree's and melee ED's
the melee power is nice but the rest of it seems to indicate it was meant for an elderich knight, basically, it's a hand me down, scraps of the table..

[Qezuzu]

like i said, 8 are caster orientated, 2 are somewhat melee orientated but 1 still has caster components and 1 is somwhat use impaired to most melee's

Are you saying you don't see to which side the scale is tipping?

I'm seriously having trouble seeing your issue here, nor why you think it's so big an issue that it warrants arguing for multiple pages. What do you want? Do you want all the feats split up? Do you want Scion of the Plane of Earth (Magic) and SotPE (Physical) to be two separate things? Do you think melees aren't getting enough from this feats? Are you just repulsed by having a feat give you spell-power?

Most of these feats are extremely nice for melees:

4 elemental ones each get 2d20, which is an average of ~75 damage per hit after you take into account easy sources of spell power. Furthermore they provide PRR and/or MRR.

Feywild similarly gives 2d20 damage, and some heal amp. Also useful for melees, unless you think 75 damage a hit is not good, or something.

1d6 healing per hit... given your rate of attack and healing amp, that's quite substantial.

Ethereal Plane: no explanation needed here.

Astral Plane: Woefully underpowered, but offers nothings for casters.

Mechanus: since caster toasters can just repair on themselves, this is ostensibly a melee/ranged-focused feat, and it gives 10% fort bypass as well.

Celestia: so far, the weakest feat for melees, and that's because it's 'only' giving 150 hitpoints, improving your healing slightly, and giving will saves. It's not like casters get much benefit out of it, though.

Elysium: lol

Arobrea: +20 melee power woo!! Wait does the force spell power not make this melee'y enough?

Limbo: every buff can benefit you in some way.

As far as I can tell, basically not a single feat is "caster-focused." Does spell-power automatically make something caster-focused? Is that your criteria?

I'm not seeing your issue. Do you need these re-designed to be more focused, and with big, bold letters saying "THESE ARE MELEE FEATS, THESE ARE RANGED FEATS, THESE ARE CASTER FEATS. NO MIXING!!!" Why is it so big an issue that these feats give caster stuff and melee stuff at the same time? Is +75 damage a hit simply not good enough?

[Atremus]

Divine casters can equip heavy armor and even equip orbs and shields to help defenses, come to think of it, arcanes can too



FvS are not proficient in Heavy Armor.

[Silverleafeon]

FvS are not proficient in Heavy Armor.

Nor are druids who also have to avoid any sort of metal on orbs/shields/armor...

[lyrecono]

I'm seriously having trouble seeing your issue here, nor why you think it's so big an issue that it warrants arguing for multiple pages. What do you want? Do you want all the feats split up? Do you want Scion of the Plane of Earth (Magic) and SotPE (Physical) to be two separate things? Do you think melees aren't getting enough from this feats? Are you just repulsed by having a feat give you spell-power?

Most of these feats are extremely nice for melees:

4 elemental ones each get 2d20, which is an average of ~75 damage per hit after you take into account easy sources of spell power. Furthermore they provide PRR and/or MRR.

Feywild similarly gives 2d20 damage, and some heal amp. Also useful for melees, unless you think 75 damage a hit is not good, or something.

1d6 healing per hit... given your rate of attack and healing amp, that's quite substantial.

Ethereal Plane: no explanation needed here.

Astral Plane: Woefully underpowered, but offers nothings for casters.

Mechanus: since caster toasters can just repair on themselves, this is ostensibly a melee/ranged-focused feat, and it gives 10% fort bypass as well.

Celestia: so far, the weakest feat for melees, and that's because it's 'only' giving 150 hitpoints, improving your healing slightly, and giving will saves. It's not like casters get much benefit out of it, though.

Elysium: lol

Arobrea: +20 melee power woo!! Wait does the force spell power not make this melee'y enough?

Limbo: every buff can benefit you in some way.

As far as I can tell, basically not a single feat is "caster-focused." Does spell-power automatically make something caster-focused? Is that your criteria?

I'm not seeing your issue. Do you need these re-designed to be more focused, and with big, bold letters saying "THESE ARE MELEE FEATS, THESE ARE RANGED FEATS, THESE ARE CASTER FEATS. NO MIXING!!!" Why is it so big an issue that these feats give caster stuff and melee stuff at the same time? Is +75 damage a hit simply not good enough?

i posted multiple times what i wanted, i assume you picked it up since you mentioned seeing me post on multiple pages.
A miner tweak on 2 feats, that's all.
it's not that i think i'm not getting enough, it's the notion of being just an afterthought.
4 elemental ones each get 2d20, wich require spellpower on a melee, that doesn't always has aces to spell power as a skill or feats.
Feywild similarly gives 2d20 damage, like i posted far earlier, nice for bards, worthless to many full melee classes due to lack of getting spellpower and feats, you're not suggesting having to waste a red slot for spell power are you?
1d6 healing per hit, actually, didn't we have that rate of healing in heroics? anyways, the point is moot, 3 spell caster points vs 1d6 healing on hits, in EE seriously?
Scion of the Ethereal Plane, see my earliest post on this, nice for rogs, not for heavy melee's
Scion of the Astral Plane see earlier post on it being under powered and what "could" be changed to make it work, as it is now, better (monk) options are out there, including some of the elemental ones.
Scion of Celestia, are you kidding me? a fvs/clr/warlock's wetdream
Scion of Mechanus as stated, usable by any toaster,
Scion of Elysium yeah
Scion of Arborea like i said, it's a hand me down for elderich knights
Limbo, yeah i refused to comment on this one so far, it's nice but too unreliable for me, i do however understand how people might like it, it's like a good version of a deck of many things

[lyrecono]

FvS are not proficient in Heavy Armor.

Since when does that mater, like barbarians, it's 1 feat away


of topic:
This forum requires that you wait 30 seconds between posts. Please try again in 38 seconds...... turbine logic

[Steelstar]

Hey, folks.

Just wanted to let you know that we're planning on adjusting Astral to be:

Scion of the Astral Plane


+4 to Tactical Feat and Assassinate DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap.
+4 to Reflex Saves.

[lyrecono]

Hey, folks.

Just wanted to let you know that we're planning on adjusting Astral to be:

Scion of the Astral Plane


+4 to Tactical Feat and Assassinate DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap.
+4 to Reflex Saves.


awesome addition!

any word on Scion of Arborea?

[Steve_Howe]

Hey, folks.

Just wanted to let you know that we're planning on adjusting Astral to be:

Scion of the Astral Plane


+4 to Tactical Feat and Assassinate DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap.
+4 to Reflex Saves.


Awww man. Assassinate not added to Ethereal Scion?

I has a sad. :(

[slarden]

Hey, folks.

Just wanted to let you know that we're planning on adjusting Astral to be:

Scion of the Astral Plane


+4 to Tactical Feat and Assassinate DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap.
+4 to Reflex Saves.



Very nice. Thank you for adding assassinate somewhere.

[Qezuzu]

i posted multiple times what i wanted, i assume you picked it up since you mentioned seeing me post on multiple pages.
A miner tweak on 2 feats, that's all.
it's not that i think i'm not getting enough, it's the notion of being just an afterthought.


I still don't understand why you think melees are "just an after thought." Most of these feats have very good effects for melees. You seem to think every feat that has caster benefits is automatically caster-centric.


worthless to many full melee classes due to lack of getting spellpower and feats, you're not suggesting having to waste a red slot for spell power are you?

It's not wasting if you're getting a benefit. If you only have one red slot it should be going to Devotion anyway, and there's items you can work in that give you Devotion so that you can free up that red slot if you really want to.

Furthermore, you get 100 SP for free (60 from 10 epic levels, 40 from the feat itself). That 2d20 becomes 42 damage per hit at absolutely no investment beyond the feat alone. This is on top of some bonus PRR/MRR/Heal Amp.


1d6 healing per hit, actually, didn't we have that rate of healing in heroics? anyways, the point is moot, 3 spell caster points vs 1d6 healing on hits, in EE seriously?

It's actually 1 caster point, 2 Palemaster points and 1d6 heal/hit for ANY melee or ranged build. 1d6 healing, times heal amp, times rate of attack, times cleaves is substantial (but not enough to make you immortal by itself, which it shouldn't).


Scion of Arborea like i said, it's a hand me down for elderich knights

Hand me down what? What does this even mean?? It gives +20 MP, that's quite a bit! What's the freaking issue? Is the Force Spell power so offensive? Is melee really an after-thought in this one, when +20 melee power is substantially more potent than that spell power?

[SableShadow]

Hey, folks.

Just wanted to let you know that we're planning on adjusting Astral to be:

Scion of the Astral Plane


+4 to Tactical Feat and Assassinate DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap.
+4 to Reflex Saves.


HmmmMmmmm...decisions, decisions...

[Hoglum]

Hey, folks.

Just wanted to let you know that we're planning on adjusting Astral to be:

Scion of the Astral Plane


+4 to Tactical Feat and Assassinate DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap.
+4 to Reflex Saves.



Has anyone considered spreading these out a few levels? Let's say at level 28 you get to choose your legendary feat.

You then get +2 tactics at lv 28, 1 at 29 & 1 at 30.
You get 1% doublestrike at 28, 2 at 29 & 1 at 30.
You get 1% dodge at 28, 1 at 29 & 2 at 30.
Etc. for all these feats.

Why are they just a massive jump in power only at level 30?

[Nightmanis]

Scion of Arborea like i said, it's a hand me down for elderich knights

Seriously if you think having +20 force spellpower makes this a hand me down then just stop and admit that you have no argument other than you just want something to argue about.

[lyrecono]

Scion of Arborea like i said, it's a hand me down for elderich knights

Seriously if you think having +20 force spellpower makes this a hand me down then just stop and admit that you have no argument other than you just want something to argue about.


Scion of Arborea
+20 Melee and Ranged Power usefull to all melee's and ranged toons
+20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power usefull to elderich knight
+2 to the Enhancement Bonus of your weapon good for everyone (casters, ranged and melee
+4 to Fortitude Saves awesome for arcane casters since those saves suck

all in all, this just screams eld knight to me

don't get me wrong, the 20 mp is awesome, the other attributes in there could have been replaced with mrr to close the gaping wound the armor down update left behind.

Edit, as for your comment, this thread is here because the dev's ask for feedback, exactly what i gave them, if you think the argument is not good, which, due to the language barrier is possible, then make a better one for this position, play the devils advocate, place yourself in the shoes of the melee's and show us what you potentially could come up with.

[mikarddo]

Hey, folks.

Just wanted to let you know that we're planning on adjusting Astral to be:

Scion of the Astral Plane


+4 to Tactical Feat and Assassinate DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap.
+4 to Reflex Saves.


Good for Assassins I reckon but still too weak for anyone else. Please consider adding something more - my wish would be vorpals on 19-20 but there are other possibles as well.

[Blastyswa]

like i said, 8 are caster orientated, 2 are somewhat melee orientated but 1 still has caster components and 1 is somwhat use impaired to most melee's

Are you saying you don't see to which side the scale is tipping?

Some of the caster oriented ones will work just fine for melee. For example, I'm planning to take Scion of Water on my main character, who is playing a paladin. He will gain the usable benefits of 200 spellpoints, 30 spellpower, 10 additional cold spellpower, 20 MRR, and 2d20 cold damage, which can scale off an augment just fine. The caster only benefits that will be useless for him from that destiny are nonexistent. I'm not disputing that these feats can have more benefit for casters (although it'll be debatable based on how much the cold damage scales) but they can also be very useful for melee.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Hey, folks.

Just wanted to let you know that we're planning on adjusting Astral to be:

Scion of the Astral Plane


+4 to Tactical Feat and Assassinate DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap.
+4 to Reflex Saves.



nice improvement.

[sjbb87]

Hey, folks.

Just wanted to let you know that we're planning on adjusting Astral to be:

Scion of the Astral Plane


+4 to Tactical Feat and Assassinate DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap.
+4 to Reflex Saves.


OK... now is good to rogues and monks...
pls change this 4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. to 6% or 8% and 2% if you are centered.
This feat are to all and not to monks and rogues only

[Grailhawk]

OK... now is good to rogues and monks...
pls change this 4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. to 6% or 8% and 2% if you are centered.
This feat are to all and not to monks and rogues only

I would rather see +4% offhand double strike then doubling the main hand DS. (I have no idea how offhand double strike effects unarmed monks) but most Rogues, and Monks use TWF which sees less offensive boost from this then THF or SWF

[sjbb87]

I would rather see +4% offhand double strike then doubling the main hand DS. (I have no idea how offhand double strike effects unarmed monks) but most Rogues, and Monks use TWF which sees less offensive boost from this then THF or SWF

4~8% off hand doublestrike is fine too...
but need add thf and swf bonus in other feats also

[Nightmanis]

+20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power usefull to elderich knight

Force spellpower is useful for blade barrier, which makes this very appealing for artificers as well.

The universal spellpower also boosts devotion and repair spellpower.

Fort saves? Sure a barb, fighter or paladin isn't exactly lacking those. A rogue might be though. Would I like it changed to will? Sure. Will I care if they don't? Not in the slightest.

[EllisDee37]

Could you edit the OP to reflect the most recent changes?

It's tough for me trying to assemble accurate data for all the (many) new feats.

[brzytki]

Hey, folks.

Just wanted to let you know that we're planning on adjusting Astral to be:

Scion of the Astral Plane


+4 to Tactical Feat and Assassinate DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap.
+4 to Reflex Saves.



Oh ****, it's gonna be a tough choice when you improve Ethereal Plane to have something useful besides SA damage...

[CThruTheEgo]

Hey, folks.

Just wanted to let you know that we're planning on adjusting Astral to be:

Scion of the Astral Plane


+4 to Tactical Feat and Assassinate DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap.
+4 to Reflex Saves.


Thanks for adding assassinate DCs somewhere. Now we have hard choices to make. Well played sir. Well played.

[dualscissors]

Thanks for adding assassinate DCs somewhere. Now we have hard choices to make. Well played sir. Well played.

Just eyeballing something here.

The +4 Dodge bonus and Dodge Cap will help monks since pajamas don't have a Max Dex component to worry about.

Looking at your Hassan assassin, Max Dex limits would be the barrier for the Dodge/Dodge Cap improving Dodge, unless a new armor had a higher Max Dex raise.

[sjbb87]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane will be nerfed?
Some information will be like?

[CThruTheEgo]

Just eyeballing something here.

The +4 Dodge bonus and Dodge Cap will help monks since pajamas don't have a Max Dex component to worry about.

Looking at your Hassan assassin, Max Dex limits would be the barrier for the Dodge/Dodge Cap improving Dodge, unless a new armor had a higher Max Dex raise.

That is correct. I thought about this earlier and decided I would post about it later today when I had time. Well, it's later.

Steelstar, can we add +4 max dex bonus to this feat as well? It's easy for an assassin to cap out their dodge right now and, as dualscissors pointed out, max dex bonus is the limiting factor. So unless this feat also raises max dex bonus, the dodge bonus is effectively useless for assassins, and probably for tactics fighters as well since they will likely be using armor with a much lower max dex bonus. So the dodge component would really only benefit monks. Assassins, tactics fighters, and monks are probably the only builds that would take this feat, and the dodge component will be useless to two out of those three, but not if it also adds +4 max dex bonus. There are much better options for other builds that might be interested in this feat (swashbuckler would be better off with feywild or arborea, tempest would be better off with arborea, etc.), so it's really geared toward the three I mentioned. So how about it?

[Steve_Howe]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane will be nerfed?
Some information will be like?

No, not nerfed. The + to Assassination DCs (which should have been added to the Ethereal Scion) will be added the the Astral Scion instead. Ethereal Scion will just be left as-is.