Bravery Bonus Change

[Splunge]

I would love to see Turbine lower the highest level that can get the bravery bonus in a quest. Personally, I'd like to see it lowered to somewhere below the base level of the quest, but even if they only lowered it to the base level, I think it would encourage grouping.

There would still be people that can solo quests on elite and get the BB, and many groups would still be able to zerg quests for elite BB, but it wouldn't be quite the faceroll that it is now. And there would certainly be some number of players who can no longer solo elite for BB. If they want the extra XP, they'll have to group up. Even people like me would group more if the LFMs were more than just a race to the end with no chance of failure. People who want to continue doing quests when they're 2 levels above the base level can still get full favor and full XP, just not the BB.

And lets face it, is a full group of level 5s that beats up on the hapless kobols in the waterworks really all that brave?

[cdbd3rd]

/not.

Not sure what the point of this suggestion is beyond... well, I just don't see it. :confused:

[diasho2]

I would be ok with this if they added the group xp on a perm basis. They added the extra xp bonus removing it at this point would cause a big outcry from the community. Moving the bonus to another source would be a good way to handle getting rid of the "push for elite" if that is your goal in getting rid of bb. The bonus xp to grouping that has been active a few weekends has also been an effective way to encourage groups with out hurting those who prefer to solo. It also helps those new to the game to learn it by encouraging more vets to create groups. Or at least during the past group xp weekends.

[Silverleafeon]

/not signed

Prefer instead to increase the gap before power leveling penalties incur by +1 or +2.
Trying to increase grouping opportunities.

[Cantor]

I would love to see bravery bonus go away. It's a barrier to grouping, and a barrier to new player enjoyment (elite or nothing). Of course to take it away would require a complete review of base quest xp. I'd like something along the lines of max[current base, ((1000+100*level)*median completion time)*1.1 if hard *1.2 elite)]. Assuming they have stats on completion times. Nothing is reduced but most go up, and they don't go up in some random way... they go up proportional to how people actually run them. Also greatly increase worth of optionals off the primary path. Keep daily 20% bonus, first time (not bb just first time), and ransack the same.

[Ralmeth]

I'd rather see bravery bonus removed, and in it's place add both a grouping bonus and an under-level bonus (something like +10% XP/level you are under up to +50% max).

[jalont]

The only thing that will make people group with randos is to provide a challenging experience in game. This suggestion MAY increase the challenge for some in its own way. I guess it would be an okay change, but I think the people that would really be effected are ones that likely already group with randos anyway.

[EllisDee37]

I remain annoyed at the clunky and awkward bravery mechanic changes. The elegant solution would have been to simply double the first time difficulty bonus the first time you run a quest. No streak, no clunky "pause your streak" NPC, no hassle at all.

The stated dev reason they preferred the clunky NPC pause mechanic was so that you could pause your streak, run a quest on normal, unpause your streak and then run that same quest on elite for bravery. Which, of course, you can't do. And I knew you wouldn't be able to. It drives me up a wall when the devs claim a justification that is so clearly and obviously wrong to defend a worse design choice than proposed alternatives.

Doubling the first time difficulty bonus wouldn't do anything for what this thread is about, though; it would just perfectly mirror the current bravery mechanic we have but in a much more streamlined and elegant way.

[MaeveTuohy]

I agree that it should be a lower level for it to apply.

[redoubt]

I would love to see Turbine lower the highest level that can get the bravery bonus in a quest. Personally, I'd like to see it lowered to somewhere below the base level of the quest, but even if they only lowered it to the base level, I think it would encourage grouping.

There would still be people that can solo quests on elite and get the BB, and many groups would still be able to zerg quests for elite BB, but it wouldn't be quite the faceroll that it is now. And there would certainly be some number of players who can no longer solo elite for BB. If they want the extra XP, they'll have to group up. Even people like me would group more if the LFMs were more than just a race to the end with no chance of failure. People who want to continue doing quests when they're 2 levels above the base level can still get full favor and full XP, just not the BB.

And lets face it, is a full group of level 5s that beats up on the hapless kobols in the waterworks really all that brave?

So far from 20-25 I have been running at -2 or -1. (To clarify: Level 20 quest on elite is 22. Ran it at level 20, so -2.) So far we have run:

Sentinals
Phiarlan
LOD
C1-C3
VON5/6
Don't Drink
Druid's Deep

All these groups have been 4-6 players.

If your idea was put in, these groups would have been me and my one guildie. A few would have had a third person. So looking at this, your idea would reduce the grouping.

If you want to say you are just talking about heroic, read what people are doing and saying. Heroic is very easy for a large part of the population. You talk about level 5s in WW. I don't have level 5 by the time I hit level 3 quests and we run it anyway. We are likely level 4 running WW elite (thus level 5). Running a level 10 on elite at 10 instead of 12 won't help. The group of people who can run that is smaller than the group that can do so at level 12. So the LFM will go from 10-12 to 10-10, with the odd exception.

I applaud the effort, but I don't think this will actually increase grouping.

[kmoustakas]

I'd remove bravery altogether and incorporate it on the regular first time completion bonus xp

[Andrash]

I would love to see Turbine lower the highest level that can get the bravery bonus in a quest. Personally, I'd like to see it lowered to somewhere below the base level of the quest, but even if they only lowered it to the base level, I think it would encourage grouping.

There would still be people that can solo quests on elite and get the BB, and many groups would still be able to zerg quests for elite BB, but it wouldn't be quite the faceroll that it is now. And there would certainly be some number of players who can no longer solo elite for BB. If they want the extra XP, they'll have to group up. Even people like me would group more if the LFMs were more than just a race to the end with no chance of failure. People who want to continue doing quests when they're 2 levels above the base level can still get full favor and full XP, just not the BB.

And lets face it, is a full group of level 5s that beats up on the hapless kobols in the waterworks really all that brave?

delete reroll pls.

[Splunge]

Running a level 10 on elite at 10 instead of 12 won't help. The group of people who can run that is smaller than the group that can do so at level 12. So the LFM will go from 10-12 to 10-10, with the odd exception.


You can run a level 10 quests at level 7, so the elite BB LFMs would go from 9-12 to 7-10.

[Qhualor]

You can run a level 10 quests at level 7, so the elite BB LFMs would go from 9-12 to 7-10.

The problem with this is that it's easy starting at level 1 to one and done and bank lots of xp, even on a 3+ life. Part of the reason why some players run a level 10 quest at level 12 is because they have run all or most of the lower level quests already. Using myself as an example, I can easily have at least 2 ranks banked each level. I end up having to skip some content along the way because I have too much xp. This suggestion would mean skipping even more content just to get the BB. If I start as an Iconic at level 15, I can have around a rank or so banked until level 17 or 18. So it would work easier for them.

[EllisDee37]

You can run a level 10 quests at level 7, so the elite BB LFMs would go from 9-12 to 7-10.That's not a hard and fast rule. Many (most?) quests allow 3 levels under to enter, but some only allow 2 levels under. I don't know of an example for sure, but I think Phiarlan Carnival quests may require level 3 to enter.

[bracelet]

The only way to fix Bravery Bonus is to remove it. And it needs to be done this way:

1) The amount of XP awarded for an elite run with full BB streak is the new baseline amount one gets on the first run of elite going forward.

2) The amount of XP awarded for any other difficulty first run is 10 to 15% less per step in difficulty.

3) Subsequent runs should be 20 to 25% less than first runs of equivalent difficulty.

4) Return to the old graduated over-level penalties. None of this "no more than 2 or 4 levels over" nonsense.

Key point number 1: This is XP neutral to those who do elite one and done.
Key point number 2: This makes other difficulties worth running -even for the first run.
Key point number 3: This makes repeating the same difficulty worth doing.

Points 2 and 3 are what will encourage grouping. Rewarding activity needs to be the goal.

The crucial problem with BB is the spiky nature of the reward. If you don't run EE with full streak you are taking a massive hit to XP. This forcefully constrains groups to members who fit in the narrow level band, who haven't run the quest before, who are willing to do elite. i.e. your running partners, or no one pretty much.

BB is a scourge and needs to be eliminated. Having more XP available from different difficulties, repeated difficulties, etc simply can't hurt the game like it once could have. We need something like 500,000,000 xp to create the ultimate completionist. That is a huge bucket to fill.

By flattening the XP rewards, you can get people running different difficulties together again -not by trying to force people to do it.

[Dragavon]

I'd remove bravery altogether and incorporate it on the regular first time completion bonus xp

This is the best way to deal with this. Bravery bonus and streak bonus should never have been added to the game at all.

[Cantor]

I remain annoyed at the clunky and awkward bravery mechanic changes. The elegant solution would have been to simply double the first time difficulty bonus the first time you run a quest. No streak, no clunky "pause your streak" NPC, no hassle at all.

The stated dev reason they preferred the clunky NPC pause mechanic was so that you could pause your streak, run a quest on normal, unpause your streak and then run that same quest on elite for bravery. Which, of course, you can't do. And I knew you wouldn't be able to. It drives me up a wall when the devs claim a justification that is so clearly and obviously wrong to defend a worse design choice than proposed alternatives.

Doubling the first time difficulty bonus wouldn't do anything for what this thread is about, though; it would just perfectly mirror the current bravery mechanic we have but in a much more streamlined and elegant way.

I think you misread their intentions, it's so you can run a quest on normal, then run some other quest on elite and get BB without restarting the streak.

[redoubt]

You can run a level 10 quests at level 7, so the elite BB LFMs would go from 9-12 to 7-10.

Yes you can, but how many people are good enough to run 5 levels under an elite quest? That is why I list mine at "base" - "base +2" when running elite. Then if someone asks to join and they are under the level range I figure they know they are good enough to run it and not feel left out. I.e. if running a level 10 on elite, I list 10-12. (I'm usually level 12 by that level range.) I could list down to 7, but the level 7 will get power leveled. Also players that far below me will have less fun because of the power gap between characters.

Also, I must have misunderstood the OP. I thought you wanted to drop the bonuses to no higher than base. i.e. level 10 on elite is max level 10. So the LFM would be 7-10 in your example. This is not a wider range than 9-12.




The crucial problem with BB is the spiky nature of the reward. If you don't run EE with full streak you are taking a massive hit to XP. This forcefully constrains groups to members who fit in the narrow level band, who haven't run the quest before, who are willing to do elite. i.e. your running partners, or no one pretty much.



I don't want to go back to NNNNNNNNNNNNHE. The BB and streak bonuses allow me to run a multi-TR (without pots) and go one and done to cap. In heroic it is typically a 3 or 4 level range of characters. In epic it is 4 levels for the 20s, 5 levels for the 21s and 6 levels for the rest. What are we excluding?

[bracelet]

I don't want to go back to NNNNNNNNNNNNHE. The BB and streak bonuses allow me to run a multi-TR (without pots) and go one and done to cap. In heroic it is typically a 3 or 4 level range of characters. In epic it is 4 levels for the 20s, 5 levels for the 21s and 6 levels for the rest. What are we excluding?

See Keypoint Number 1:

Key point number 1: This is XP neutral to those who do elite one and done.

Nothing whatsoever changes for those that like to do this. I consider this as important as you do, because this is exactly how I do things as well. However, I would very much like the option to run with folks out of band, but I will not do so because of the massive hit to XP I will take, not only for the out of band quest, but for the next 4 elite quests after that. If I will only take a 10 to 15% penalty by running with new players that want to to do hard or normal, or guildies that are only slightly above the quest level, I would be fine with that. And no -some dude on the guild ship who I may or may not remember to talk to, does not cut it -even if I talk to him, I will still forgo massive amounts of XP by running outside of BB. It was an utter waste of dev time. Complete and utter. The only thing it is good for is raids and I forgot to use it the one time it mattered anyway.

BB must go. Short of solo-only quests it is as anti-group as you can get.

Edit: maybe to make it clearer. What I am advocating is a huge hike in the first time XP for elite, hard, normal and even casual. Then just toss BB like the bad egg it was.

[Feal]

Imo it's crazy to remove BB...

if the aim is to get people 1. play the game, 2. play together, it is one of the worst thing you can do

if you consider the whole people playng the game, you should get the whole perspective. lot of you (too much imo) wants nerf and are never satisfied with nerfs, wanting more nerfs everytime another toon you don't play get stronger than yours. this is egoistic

try to figure how do you feel when Your toon get nerfed, you are not that happy. when this happens lot of times, you are definetly not happy. not considering this for all players is egoistic

if you want people to play the game, people should enjoy it, the majority. if you want people to play, you should not act to let them feel unhappy, no sense, this balancing war is going mad

if you want people to play togeter, give bonus to let them play together

the idea to get more xp the more the party size is very good, since party size increase difficulty of the dungeon. the harder the quest the better the reward, this make sense

forgive my harsh words, but this "balancing war" is going too far, i can only see the egoism of jealousy in the hate of nerfing everything.

[redoubt]

See Keypoint Number 1:

Key point number 1: This is XP neutral to those who do elite one and done.

Nothing whatsoever changes for those that like to do this. I consider this as important as you do, because this is exactly how I do things as well. However, I would very much like the option to run with folks out of band, but I will not do so because of the massive hit to XP I will take, not only for the out of band quest, but for the next 4 elite quests after that. If I will only take a 10 to 15% penalty by running with new players that want to to do hard or normal, or guildies that are only slightly above the quest level, I would be fine with that. And no -some dude on the guild ship who I may or may not remember to talk to, does not cut it -even if I talk to him, I will still forgo massive amounts of XP by running outside of BB. It was an utter waste of dev time. Complete and utter. The only thing it is good for is raids and I forgot to use it the one time it mattered anyway.

BB must go. Short of solo-only quests it is as anti-group as you can get.

Edit: maybe to make it clearer. What I am advocating is a huge hike in the first time XP for elite, hard, normal and even casual. Then just toss BB like the bad egg it was.

Question then:

Can you get the first time bonus when you are over level? (I thought it was also tied to the quest level.)

[Gremmlynn]

I would love to see Turbine lower the highest level that can get the bravery bonus in a quest. Personally, I'd like to see it lowered to somewhere below the base level of the quest, but even if they only lowered it to the base level, I think it would encourage grouping.

There would still be people that can solo quests on elite and get the BB, and many groups would still be able to zerg quests for elite BB, but it wouldn't be quite the faceroll that it is now. And there would certainly be some number of players who can no longer solo elite for BB. If they want the extra XP, they'll have to group up. Even people like me would group more if the LFMs were more than just a race to the end with no chance of failure. People who want to continue doing quests when they're 2 levels above the base level can still get full favor and full XP, just not the BB.

And lets face it, is a full group of level 5s that beats up on the hapless kobols in the waterworks really all that brave?That's how I always thought it should be.

The thing is, the math may not work out for that as there may not be enough upper level quests. As things stand, a level 18 character has all the quests from 16-20 to get those last 2 (or 1 if holding) levels in. With this change, it would just be the level 18-20 quests. So possibly not enough xp for one and done on a 3rd+ life character.

While one and done isn't a necessity, it's something I would think the game would be aiming for.

[Gremmlynn]

Question then:

Can you get the first time bonus when you are over level? (I thought it was also tied to the quest level.)As long as it's less than 7 levels over. At that point quests give no xp regardless of bonuses. Thus first time elite at 6 levels over is really only -19% base xp from what re-running it at level would be as the -99% over level penalty is additive with other bonuses/penalties.

[Gremmlynn]

Imo it's crazy to remove BB...

if the aim is to get people 1. play the game, 2. play together, it is one of the worst thing you can do

if you consider the whole people playng the game, you should get the whole perspective. lot of you (too much imo) wants nerf and are never satisfied with nerfs, wanting more nerfs everytime another toon you don't play get stronger than yours. this is egoistic

try to figure how do you feel when Your toon get nerfed, you are not that happy. when this happens lot of times, you are definetly not happy. not considering this for all players is egoistic

if you want people to play the game, people should enjoy it, the majority. if you want people to play, you should not act to let them feel unhappy, no sense, this balancing war is going mad

if you want people to play togeter, give bonus to let them play together

the idea to get more xp the more the party size is very good, since party size increase difficulty of the dungeon. the harder the quest the better the reward, this make sense

forgive my harsh words, but this "balancing war" is going too far, i can only see the egoism of jealousy in the hate of nerfing everything.The problem with BB is that it makes running any other difficulty a monumentally bad idea. Either they should remove BB or simply remove casual, normal and hard because all those difficulties add to the game are relatively bad choices.

[redoubt]

As long as it's less than 7 levels over. At that point quests give no xp regardless of bonuses. Thus first time elite at 6 levels over is really only -19% base xp from what re-running it at level would be as the -99% over level penalty is additive with other bonuses/penalties.

Okay, if first time bonus applies regardless of character vs quest level then I can see how boosting the first time bonus might work as a replacement for the BB.

That said, you can get the first time bonus 3 times. Once for each difficulty, which would lead to more running of the same quests. So that might counter the idea of removing it.

Lastly, the over level penalties kick in at CR + 2, so I think most LFMs would still cap at CR+1. This creating a net gain of only +1 to the level range used. (Not that that is bad, its just not a panacea.)


The problem with BB is that it makes running any other difficulty a monumentally bad idea. Either they should remove BB or simply remove casual, normal and hard because all those difficulties add to the game are relatively bad choices.

I disagree. Running elite BB is a bad idea for new players. First, they don't need that kind of xp to level a first life character. Second, while "gamers" who are new to DDO can probably catch up fast and stay with the vets, and actually new players will have a great deal less fun in elite BB style groups.

Removing normal and hard are also bad ideas. New players need a place to learn. Players who don't dedicate mass quantities of time to the game also need a good place to play.

Lastly, look at the comments from vets on how EN is actually the best xp/min on ER characters. EN and EH are still used a LOT, even by experienced players.

[bracelet]

Question then:

Can you get the first time bonus when you are over level? (I thought it was also tied to the quest level.)

Yes. They would have to bump the base XP so that you would end up with the same thing you get now with streak. You would still get the old first time bonus (so the base XP adjustment would need to take that into account) and you would still get the over level penalties. But that's actually the way it is now -people just don't notice anymore because BB distorts the heck out of everything -and if you are over level you don't get BB anyway.

The idea is, that once they do this, they can get rid of BB. But it is very important to give a disproportionately higher rise in base XP on the lower difficulties. The goal is, that when you choose to run a quest for the first time you end up giving up very little if you choose to run hard or even normal, or with a slightly over-level friend. That makes choosing to run hard or normal or with a friend an actual *choice*. Because right now it simply is not.

[bracelet]

Okay, if first time bonus applies regardless of character vs quest level then I can see how boosting the first time bonus might work as a replacement for the BB.

That said, you can get the first time bonus 3 times. Once for each difficulty, which would lead to more running of the same quests. So that might counter the idea of removing it.

Lastly, the over level penalties kick in at CR + 2, so I think most LFMs would still cap at CR+1. This creating a net gain of only +1 to the level range used. (Not that that is bad, its just not a panacea.)



I disagree. Running elite BB is a bad idea for new players. First, they don't need that kind of xp to level a first life character. Second, while "gamers" who are new to DDO can probably catch up fast and stay with the vets, and actually new players will have a great deal less fun in elite BB style groups.

Removing normal and hard are also bad ideas. New players need a place to learn. Players who don't dedicate mass quantities of time to the game also need a good place to play.

Lastly, look at the comments from vets on how EN is actually the best xp/min on ER characters. EN and EH are still used a LOT, even by experienced players.

Gremmlynn beat me to it, but he gets it :-)

There are some points you make that deserve some more attention though:

We don't want to boost the first time bonus any more than it is. That removes incentive for people to run the quest again, i.e. removes yet another reason to group. The base XP is needs to be boosted to make first runs match full streak BB. And the lower difficulties need to be boosted even more to flatten out the reward.

This change lets new players post lower difficulties and might actually get some hits. If there is only a minor penalty to helping the new guy through a quest on Hard or Normal, then why not? You might even score a guildie out of it, and Turbine might get a new long term customer out if it. God knows we could use some more of those right?

The reason vets run normal at epic is *because* there is no BB after the first ER. If there were BB on each ER we would be running at least hard. And on the first time through we try to do that, and elite where possible. Those of us who have been through it know what an absolute relief it is not to have to worry about idiotic BB -we just choose the difficulty that is either the quickest and/or the most fun and off we go. We can invite anyone we like too. I routinely solo heroics and group in epic because of BB.

Removing Normal and Hard would indeed be a bad idea. The new guy has to have something to run. But with increased XP he can run with the big boys sooner.

The over-level penalties range from minor to bad. The difference is that a minor penalty is something most people routinely stomach. With BB the over level penalty is massive and almost always not acceptable.

[Standal]

Bravery Bonus encourages grouping. Everyone who played when it was introduced should understand that. What is killing grouping is the vast power creep that class balance passes and epic/iconic past lives have created. My main is currently on a barb life. The only quests he had to group on the way to 20 were the ones with mechanics that encourage grouping. His combination of tremendous DPS and self-healing is what discouraged grouping, not BB. If we were in the pre-MOTU days, he would have been looking for a group for every elite quest.

[Gremmlynn]

I disagree. Running elite BB is a bad idea for new players. First, they don't need that kind of xp to level a first life character. Second, while "gamers" who are new to DDO can probably catch up fast and stay with the vets, and actually new players will have a great deal less fun in elite BB style groups.

Removing normal and hard are also bad ideas. New players need a place to learn. Players who don't dedicate mass quantities of time to the game also need a good place to play.

Lastly, look at the comments from vets on how EN is actually the best xp/min on ER characters. EN and EH are still used a LOT, even by experienced players.All correct and all countered by BB causing elite to be the only really desirable difficulty, at least for heroics. Even in epics it likely would be if so much repetition wasn't the norm due to ER not resetting first run status.

While those lower difficulties may be the right place for new players. They aren't where the groups are and likely not where the new players are once they figure out the xp difference, regardless of where they may be better off or whether they really need the xp first life. So removing BB would be the better solution the the issue, with the xp being redistributed elsewhere (or doing what should have been done in the first place and making 2nd/3rd life character a requirement for hard/elite bravery).

[arkonas]

i want to add something to this. bravery is just extra xp to me. if you think im going to stop doing elite you're wrong. i want my max favor and move on. im tired of n/h/e i did that when i first started and i have evolved to running every quest once on elite for max favor and xp and move on. i don't want to change my ways. even others i notice want elite as well but they will run other difficulties as well. not everyone wants to go back to normal/hard/elite. that is why vips and third life trs were great things to have in a party.

this will go back to do your own lfms of the difficulty you prefer and run it like that. don't want to host a lfm well that is on you sadly. we could have more lfms if people would host them but it always comes down to i don't know it, i haven't ran it much i don't want to be a leader. they do have a function that allows you not to be a leader and still do a lfm. eh sadly people won't even do that.


no matter what i want max xp and max favor and only doing it once. if i choose to come back or farm it on other difficulties it will be if i feel like it. i think the people who don't want elite is only a small crowd compared to people who want it done and move on.

[arkonas]

Bravery Bonus encourages grouping. Everyone who played when it was introduced should understand that. What is killing grouping is the vast power creep that class balance passes and epic/iconic past lives have created. My main is currently on a barb life. The only quests he had to group on the way to 20 were the ones with mechanics that encourage grouping. His combination of tremendous DPS and self-healing is what discouraged grouping, not BB. If we were in the pre-MOTU days, he would have been looking for a group for every elite quest.

this person is correct as well. the game has evolved so much that we don't need certain classes anymore or people don't wait. traps aren't deadly enough or not taking enough damage to warrant a divine. yeah i know no one wants to go back to waiting for a class and that isn't what i'm referring to. its just the game has became easier in some aspects that as players play toons more and tr the need for other roles becomes less. i wouldn't want to go back to the game of waiting for roles but i would like to see pain introduced to make us think more. there was a person not long ago did videos on how to avoid traps without disarming and without evasion. that means they took time to watch the trap and of course not including lag.

i want more damage/deadly/effects to be used against us to make us think more and maybe breathe some life into some of the classes that might not feel like their needed. just my opinion. i don't want to go back to waiting for a role, but i wouldn't mind making us think a little more.

[ArekDorun]

I think the BB mechanic probably needs to change somewhat, but not in the way the OP describes. Instead, here's what I think should be done:

Do away with the bravery streak mechanic.
Increase the current flat Bravery Bonus from 10% hard/20% elite, to 15% hard/30% elite, or even 20%/40% maybe.
Make the +5% xp bonus per party member in quests permanent.

This would basically remove any penalty for running a quest or raid at a non-elite level, and would encourage partying since having a full party would net you more xp than soloing stuff would.

Thoughts?

--ArekDorun

[EllisDee37]

I think you misread their intentions, it's so you can run a quest on normal, then run some other quest on elite and get BB without restarting the streak.Nope, it was indeed the devs' intent to allow getting bravery on a repeat run of the same quest. Sev was very clear (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/463234-Final-plea-for-changing-bravery/page2?p=5656673#post5656673) about this:


The bravery XP bonuses would be replaced with a "first run" bonus, maybe called "Explorer" bonus, which doubles the first time difficulty bonus the first time you run a quest each life.
If I understand this text correctly, this doesn't meet all of our our design goals. Players would still feel compelled to run a dungeon the first time on Elite, which messes up encounter difficulty expectations.

Right now, and under this proposal, a player feels compelled to run new content on Elite to get this first time bonus. Because of this, there are many players who expect to be able to complete Elite content with a low failure rate the first time through. This means missions that are hard on Elite can be frustrating to players trying to maximize their XP.

We'd rather have a player option to be able to approach new content on Normal or Hard first, and work their way up to Elite. That means that players need to be able turn off any kind of first time bonus for new content or they'll ruin their chance at the first time bonus XP.

Sev~
Honest question, is this new bravery bonus change going to allow players to receive a "bravery bonus" if they complete a quest on normal first -> activate bravery streak -> complete same quest on elite and then receive their bravery bonus? Because otherwise I think that's going to be the same issue as the OP's suggestion.
Yes, that's the intent.

Sev~
That's not how it works on lammania, nor does it even really make sense to me to implement it that way. You're only eligible for bravery the first time you run a quest.

If that is indeed your intended design goal, then it would be far better to simply increase the first time difficulty bonuses and remove bravery. No first run or bravery bonus is needed at all.
Well, shoot. With U27 going live on Monday it looks like it's too late.

We're going to be stuck with the pause NPC, and contrary to what Sev stated as the intent of the changes, after running a quest on normal with bravery paused, re-enabling it and running the same quest on elite will NOT give you bravery bonus.

Meaning the only reason the pause NPC would be better than the proposal in the OP is a reason that won't be implemented. We'll be stuck with the worst of all possibilities.

Boooooo.

Hopefully the devs will be open to changing bravery again in U28 to fix the bugged implementation of U27, but I'm not holding my breath.

[redoubt]

Lots of comments all around.

Its sounds like many of you are advocating removing BOTH the bravery bonus AND the streak bonus. Is this correct?

It also sounds like many of you want to have the same xp for all difficulties. Is this correct?

[Darkmits]

Lots of comments all around.

Its sounds like many of you are advocating removing BOTH the bravery bonus AND the streak bonus. Is this correct?

It also sounds like many of you want to have the same xp for all difficulties. Is this correct?The problem is that any of us who want a nerf in this aspect are probably looked at as if we want other players to not have fun, when in reality any "nerf" in bonuses can be countered by a very similar "buff" in base exp to keep the first run at approximately same levels while buffing subsequent runs so that they do not feel like wasted time for exp hunters.

Multiple ways to approach this. Remove them. Nerf them. Change the rules around them. Buff other bonuses etc.

Personally I'd change all bonuses to work additively instead of multiplicatively. All of them. Guild bonus, DDO Store potion bonus, Tome of Learning, Voice of Master, VIP bonus, First run bonus, Streak bonus (hope I didn't forget any). And at the same time I'd make Overlevelling penalty, Boosting penalty, Late entry penalty also work additively (so you could have -175% for being 10 levels above but still earn exp because the other bonuses make up for it).

At the same time, I would increase the amount of experience from optionals. Because currently exp is both too frontloaded in the sense that simply entering the quest and killing just the final boss ignoring everything else is too lucrative, and too backloaded in the sense that doing absolutely everthing in the quest and failing to kill the last boss rewards too little.

[bracelet]

Lots of comments all around.

Its sounds like many of you are advocating removing BOTH the bravery bonus AND the streak bonus. Is this correct?

It also sounds like many of you want to have the same xp for all difficulties. Is this correct?

Yes. With a commensurate boost in base XP to make a first time elite run XP neutral, i.e. one and done elite runs reward the same XP as full streak BB.

I would also boost base XP for the lower difficulties so that, while not the same as elite, it would be much closer. The goal being to remove the huge penalty one takes for choosing a lower difficulty.

[Enoach]

At one time DDO did have an Under-Level Bonus to XP.

To me the problem is that Bravery Bonus and Streak create a mindset that there isn't a better way to earn XP. Part of this is it is by far the best way to earn XP as long as you can complete the quests in a reasonable time frame.

I'm not for removing Bravery Bonus. I am in favor of tweaking the system as it comes to streaks (Turbine has already add the turn streak off option)

I think the streak count should stop at 5
I also think the streak count should reset on True Reincarnation and Iconic Reincarnation
I feel this way because part of the issue with streaks is people have an emotional attachment to the big number when it has no value above 5.


Add Other options such as Under-Level bonus based on the highest level in the quest. Such as 10% for 1 Level, 25% for 2 Levels and 50% for 3 Levels below Base Quest Level. This could allow for mixing with Bravery Bonus but would mean being 3 to 5 levels below the Elite Level of the Quest.

I also think they need to add more Saga's to tie story lines together. One example would be a Saga for each House which uses all the quests in that House's favor list, and possibly for long series such as Threnal (which is one of the worst series for Bravery Bonus with the mix between level 8 to 10 quests) and Necropolis all 4 sections. This could also encourage players to play a wider range of quests.

[Gremmlynn]

Lots of comments all around.

Its sounds like many of you are advocating removing BOTH the bravery bonus AND the streak bonus. Is this correct?

It also sounds like many of you want to have the same xp for all difficulties. Is this correct?Personally, I'd like to see a flat 70% first time ever bonus replace it and maybe increase the base xp for hard/elite a smidgen to keep them attractive, but not so stupidly over the top like elite currently is.

[MaeveTuohy]

Lots of comments all around.

Its sounds like many of you are advocating removing BOTH the bravery bonus AND the streak bonus. Is this correct?

It also sounds like many of you want to have the same xp for all difficulties. Is this correct?

I'd like to see the Streak gone, for sure. Bravery Bonus needs to be for doing a quest under level.

[Nandos]

I would like to see the Bravery streak removed as well. In Heroic, there's too much pressure to play elite or nothing. As its replacement add all of the following:

a nice grouping bonus

an improved first time quest completion bonus

an improved VIP bonus

[EllisDee37]

Sev explicitly stated that they don't want to remove streaks because players like big streak numbers. Which I find ridiculous; it's a useless stat that adds confusion and complexity where none is needed, but apparently we're stuck with it:


A lot of players like tracking the bravery streak count so we wouldn't want to remove it entirely.

Sev~

[redoubt]

Lots of comments all around.

Its sounds like many of you are advocating removing BOTH the bravery bonus AND the streak bonus. Is this correct?

It also sounds like many of you want to have the same xp for all difficulties. Is this correct?


Yes. With a commensurate boost in base XP to make a first time elite run XP neutral, i.e. one and done elite runs reward the same XP as full streak BB.

I would also boost base XP for the lower difficulties so that, while not the same as elite, it would be much closer. The goal being to remove the huge penalty one takes for choosing a lower difficulty.

So does this mean that you could run the same quest everyday for the same xp that we get today for first time with streak?


Personally, I'd like to see a flat 70% first time ever bonus replace it and maybe increase the base xp for hard/elite a smidgen to keep them attractive, but not so stupidly over the top like elite currently is.

Current elite first time is 80%. Are saying to make the first time bonus 70% for any difficulty? Then add a smidgen to hard and elite?


I'd like to see the Streak gone, for sure. Bravery Bonus needs to be for doing a quest under level.

Define "under level" please. Under the base or under the adjusted CR?

[EllisDee37]

Current elite first time is 80%. Are saying to make the first time bonus 70% for any difficulty? Then add a smidgen to hard and elite?No, he's saying to add a new bonus (maybe call it Explorer?) that gives you an additional 70% bonus the first time you run a quest. Difficulty would be irrelevant for this explorer bonus; you get it for running a quest you've never run before.

In terms of elite streaking, you'd get the same 150% bonus (80% elite + 70% explorer) as we get on live from streak (80% elite +20% bravery +50% streak.)