Weapon Balance vs D&D vs Realism?

[Tinari]

Howdy folks! I'm running low on sleep and being awful chatty tonight for some reason... but I've seen a lot of chatter on this balancing pass due to the change in Keen/Impact and Improved Critical, so I wanted to throw this out here...

Anyone responding, which of these three scenarios would you rather DDO go with?

Balance, where all weapons share a level of parity and you can use whatever weapon you thematically and aesthetically pleased, and they come out to roughly the same mathematically assuming the same prefixes/suffixes...

or...

D&D style, where certain weapons were legitimately meant to be better than others. Quarter Staffs with 20/x2 were made that way because they were cheap, simple weapons that anyone could use. They were meant to be statistically worse off than, say, a Longsword which was a martial weapon and had 19-20/x2. DDO even took it a step further and made (some) exotic weapons even better to justify the feat, such as the Khopesh becoming 19-20/x3 where in normal D&D they were 19-20/x2 with a trip bonus.

or...

Realism style! I'll talk from me bum a bit 'ere. Weapons that were meant to have lots of head heft and hack/cleave well, or designed to really penetrate through armor have lower threat but higher multiplier, while more weighted weapons that were easier to handle have wider threats with lower multipliers? Falchions, Bec-de-corbin (picks), Axes and Khopesh (Axe-like swords) put a lot of emphasis on a powerful cutting blow so perhaps 20/x3. Weapons which were meant for quicker reactions and more balanced design have a 19-20/x2, and we get rid of all outliers! Even the venerable quarterstaff becomes 19-20/x2 because double-weapons don't exist in DDO... or should we make a quarterstaff function as a TWF style... and THF style... simultaneously... (am I derailing my own post?)

[Darkmits]

I'd prefer D&D style, but that assumes that enhancements wouldn't mess up with everything so much.

[Tinari]

I'd prefer D&D style, but that assumes that enhancements wouldn't mess up with everything so much.

Currently with the Swashbuckler enhancement, they appear to want to make all weapons have some sort of parity. I am currently PLAYING a Swashbuckler, but I did want to try a bard life out. That said I really found it a bit... hmm... annoying that all weapons were treated equally in their hands in such a... ham-fisted feeling way? Light pick seems the most unique of them all now only because it is treated with a different crit profile (19-20x4 instead of 18-20x3).

That said, that's not entirely a bad thing. I would actually love to see the Kensai enhancement pass allow them to treat their chosen weapon as a 18-20x3 weapon regardless of it's initial range. Whatever their chosen weapon type is, it's suddenly 18-20/x3, whether that's throwing weapons, clubs, picks, quarter staffs, great axes, shields, handwraps, etc. I think that'd be a neat concept that Kensai treats their chosen weapon as an extension of themselves and are so proficient that regardless of what they hold in their hands, it becomes a deadly tool of destruction.

On the other hand, I don't mind certainly classes getting a 'trope' weapon made to order. Such as assassins being extremely good with highly concealable weapons such as kukri and daggers and such.

I am not sure where I ultimately fall for the direction of actual weapons themselves. I would find it rather dull if every weapon in the game was set as "Exotic = 18-20/x2. Martial = 19-20x2. Simple = 20/x2." and the only difference was enhancements. DDO is more MMO than table top however, so I suppose we can throw D&D to the sharks in some regards.

[SirValentine]

Balance, where all weapons share a level of parity and you can use whatever weapon you thematically and aesthetically pleased, and they come out to roughly the same mathematically assuming the same prefixes/suffixes...


BORING! Not to mention, unbalanced. Certain classes are specifically at an advantage by being proficient with better weapons.



D&D style, where certain weapons were legitimately meant to be better than others. Quarter Staffs with 20/x2 were made that way because they were cheap, simple weapons that anyone could use. They were meant to be statistically worse off than, say, a Longsword which was a martial weapon and had 19-20/x2.


Yes, please.



Realism style!


How many experts on the manufacture, training, uses, and trade-offs of different historical and fantasy weapons from around this world & others, and across centuries & alternate time-streams does Turbine have on staff?

How are they to even begin to figure out what "Realism style" is supposed to look like? To a minor, highly simplified & stylized degree, D&D style is supposed to be very roughly inspired by realistic style, but it doesn't claim to be exact. And most people who pretend they're trying to get more realistic than that are generally talking out of their donkey.

[bartharok]

Ive played RM, which had a somewhat realistic approach to weapons, id go for the realistic approach, which would mean that most weapons would have an advantage somewhere.

[Tinari]

Ive played RM, which had a somewhat realistic approach to weapons, id go for the realistic approach, which would mean that most weapons would have an advantage somewhere.

Probably with games is that they're meant to, at best, be a very loose interpretation of realism. The most basic of European swords and Asian swords were generally pretty useless against a full plate knight. That is why many weapons (especially in Europe where the full plate was more prevalent) were designed. Things such as the bec-de-corbin and ahlspiess were designed around the concept of getting "through" armor, but at the same time were more unwieldy than a sword, so you had to be very careful with them.

And of the day the best way to defeat the armored knight was using something like a mace, flail, or perhaps a goedendag to really get in and hit the person hiding in that tin-can.

I actually like the concept of armor functioning as damage reduction and swords having balanced average damage with "armor piercing" weapons having much wilder damage dice. Example, Greatsword = 2D6 = 2-12, average 7. Plate Armor has innate DR5. That greatsword will, on average, be barely breaking through and doing damage. Greataxe = 1D12 = 1-12 = no average. The chance of you breaking 5 is better than not, but you're just as likely to roll a 12 and leave a nasty wound as you are a 1. Though since we aren't beholden to real dice in a video game, I'd make a great axe 1D14.

Anyway, just fun thought!

[cdbd3rd]

...

I actually like the concept of armor functioning as damage reduction and swords having balanced average damage with "armor piercing" weapons having much wilder damage dice. Example, Greatsword = 2D6 = 2-12, average 7. Plate Armor has innate DR5. That greatsword will, on average, be barely breaking through and doing damage. Greataxe = 1D12 = 1-12 = no average. The chance of you breaking 5 is better than not, but you're just as likely to roll a 12 and leave a nasty wound as you are a 1. Though since we aren't beholden to real dice in a video game, I'd make a great axe 1D14.

Anyway, just fun thought!


I like how you think. https://www.ddo.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.png

[bartharok]

Probably with games is that they're meant to, at best, be a very loose interpretation of realism. The most basic of European swords and Asian swords were generally pretty useless against a full plate knight. That is why many weapons (especially in Europe where the full plate was more prevalent) were designed. Things such as the bec-de-corbin and ahlspiess were designed around the concept of getting "through" armor, but at the same time were more unwieldy than a sword, so you had to be very careful with them.

And of the day the best way to defeat the armored knight was using something like a mace, flail, or perhaps a goedendag to really get in and hit the person hiding in that tin-can.

I actually like the concept of armor functioning as damage reduction and swords having balanced average damage with "armor piercing" weapons having much wilder damage dice. Example, Greatsword = 2D6 = 2-12, average 7. Plate Armor has innate DR5. That greatsword will, on average, be barely breaking through and doing damage. Greataxe = 1D12 = 1-12 = no average. The chance of you breaking 5 is better than not, but you're just as likely to roll a 12 and leave a nasty wound as you are a 1. Though since we aren't beholden to real dice in a video game, I'd make a great axe 1D14.

Anyway, just fun thought!

In RM Armor functioned as a separate hit table for every weapon. In heavy armor you would most likely get hit, but not take any real damage. While unarmored people were harder to hit, but got heavy damage almost every time they got hit.

Id LOVE to find a game that used the RM system, but it was rather complicated, so i have no high hopes.

[Jetrule]

I like a modified realism approach with the goal of giving some of the less optimal dps weapons some advantage not received by other weapons. There are realistic drawbacks and penalties that could be applied to these weapons as well but these weapons are all weaker dps choices, so there is no game sense in handicapping them further.

All axes- +10% cleave type attack damage or +2w on all cleave attacks.
Heavy picks +10% fort bypass +10 prr bypass.
Light picks +5 +5 fort/prr bypass
Greatswords and longswords bastard swords, +5% cleave type attack damage or +1w on all cleave attacks, +2 armor class
Great clubs +3 trip and stun modifier.
Maul +4 stun modifier +8 prr bypass
Warhammer- heavy mace- morningstar +2 stunning blow modifier +4 prr bypass
Q staff +2% attack speed +2 trip
Daggers and short swords +3% attack speed
Longbows +10 fort and prr bypass http://www.longbow-archers.com/historyagincourt.html
Short bows +5% attack speed.
Light crossbows +3% double shot speed or make them single handed.
Heavy crossbows +5 fort and prr bypass
Club and light mace +4 sap modifier +2 stun modifier. +2% double strike
Light hammer /throwing hammer +2 stun modifier +2% double strike. make a ranged stunning blow possible at pointblank range.
Throwing hammer .Throwing axe +2 stun modifier. Can make a ranged stunning blow possible.
Dart/Throwing dagger +3% double shot.

[HastyPudding]

I like a modified realism approach with the goal of giving some of the less optimal dps weapons some advantage not received by other weapons. There are realistic drawbacks and penalties that could be applied to these weapons as well but these weapons are all weaker dps choices, so there is no game sense in handicapping them further.

All axes- +10% cleave type attack damage or +2w on all cleave attacks.
Heavy picks +10% fort bypass +10 prr bypass.
Light picks +5 +5 fort/prr bypass
Greatswords and longswords bastard swords, +5% cleave type attack damage or +1w on all cleave attacks, +2 armor class
Great clubs +3 trip and stun modifier.
Maul +4 stun modifier +8 prr bypass
Warhammer- heavy mace- morningstar +2 stunning blow modifier +4 prr bypass
Q staff +2% attack speed +2 trip
Daggers and short swords +3% attack speed
Longbows +10 fort and prr bypass http://www.longbow-archers.com/historyagincourt.html
Short bows +5% attack speed.
Light crossbows +3% double shot speed or make them single handed.
Heavy crossbows +5 fort and prr bypass
Club and light mace +4 sap modifier +2 stun modifier. +2% double strike
Light hammer /throwing hammer +2 stun modifier +2% double strike. make a ranged stunning blow possible at pointblank range.
Throwing hammer .Throwing axe +2 stun modifier. Can make a ranged stunning blow possible.
Dart/Throwing dagger +3% double shot.

Warhammers need to be slightly better than heavy maces and morningstars, simply because warhammers are martial weapons where the other two are simple weapons. You also left out rapiers, kukris, repeaters, sickles, unarmed, kamas, shuriken, and scimitars.

Hmmmmmm

Hand axe, battle axe -- +0.5[w] on cleave attacks, +3 PRR bypass
Great axe, dwarven axe -- +1[w] on cleave attacks, +5 PRR bypass
Greatsword, falchion -- +1[w] on cleave attacks, +3 AC
Light hammer, club -- +1 stun DC
Light mace -- +1 stun DC, +5 PRR bypass
Heavy mace, morningstar -- +2 stun DC, +10 PRR bypass
Warhammer, maul -- +3 stun DC, +10 PRR bypass
Light pick -- +5% fort bypass, +5 PRR bypass
Heavy pick -- +10% fort bypass, +5 PRR bypass
Sickle -- +5% fort bypass, +1% dodge
Kama -- +10% fort bypass, +2% dodge, hamstring effect on vorpals
Longsword -- +0.5[w] on cleave attacks, +2 AC
Khopesh -- +0.5[w] on cleave attacks, +5% fort bypass
Bastard sword -- +1[w] on cleave attacks, +3 AC
Dagger -- +10% fort bypass, +2% dodge
Kukri -- +10% fort bypass, +5% attack speed
Short sword -- +5% fort bypass, +5% attack speed
Scimitar -- +2% dodge, +5% attack speed
Rapier -- +4% dodge
Quarterstaff -- +3% dodge, +2 trip DC
Unarmed -- +1 stun DC, +2% dodge
Light crossbow, light repeater -- +5% attack speed
Heavy crossbow, heavy repeater -- +10% fort bypass
Great crossbow -- +10% fort bypass, knockdown on vorpals
Shortbow -- +5% attack speed, +5% fort bypass
Longbow -- +10% fort bypass
Shuriken -- +5% doubleshoot
Dart -- +10% fort bypass
Throwing Knife -- +5% fort bypass, +5% attack speed
Throwing Hammer -- +5 PRR bypass, +2% doubleshoot
Throwing Axe -- +5 PRR bypass, +5% fort bypass

[nibel]

Realism style!

Everyone dies or get crippled in one hit?

[Jetrule]

Warhammers need to be slightly better than heavy maces and morningstars, simply because warhammers are martial weapons where the other two are simple weapons. You also left out rapiers, kukris, repeaters, sickles, unarmed, kamas, shuriken, and scimitars.

Hmmmmmm

Hand axe, battle axe -- +0.5[w] on cleave attacks, +3 PRR bypass
Great axe, dwarven axe -- +1[w] on cleave attacks, +5 PRR bypass
Greatsword, falchion -- +1[w] on cleave attacks, +3 AC
Light hammer, club -- +1 stun DC
Light mace -- +1 stun DC, +5 PRR bypass
Heavy mace, morningstar -- +2 stun DC, +10 PRR bypass
Warhammer, maul -- +3 stun DC, +10 PRR bypass
Light pick -- +5% fort bypass, +5 PRR bypass
Heavy pick -- +10% fort bypass, +5 PRR bypass
Sickle -- +5% fort bypass, +1% dodge
Kama -- +10% fort bypass, +2% dodge, hamstring effect on vorpals
Longsword -- +0.5[w] on cleave attacks, +2 AC
Khopesh -- +0.5[w] on cleave attacks, +5% fort bypass
Bastard sword -- +1[w] on cleave attacks, +3 AC
Dagger -- +10% fort bypass, +2% dodge
Kukri -- +10% fort bypass, +5% attack speed
Short sword -- +5% fort bypass, +5% attack speed
Scimitar -- +2% dodge, +5% attack speed
Rapier -- +4% dodge
Quarterstaff -- +3% dodge, +2 trip DC
Unarmed -- +1 stun DC, +2% dodge
Light crossbow, light repeater -- +5% attack speed
Heavy crossbow, heavy repeater -- +10% fort bypass
Great crossbow -- +10% fort bypass, knockdown on vorpals
Shortbow -- +5% attack speed, +5% fort bypass
Longbow -- +10% fort bypass
Shuriken -- +5% doubleshoot
Dart -- +10% fort bypass
Throwing Knife -- +5% fort bypass, +5% attack speed
Throwing Hammer -- +5 PRR bypass, +2% doubleshoot
Throwing Axe -- +5 PRR bypass, +5% fort bypass

I accidently left out sicles unarmed and Kama.and animal forms. Rapiers scimitars falchions and khopeshes kukris repeaters and great crossbows already have the best damage profile and need no incentivising. Shurikens have weak base damage but other ways to make them by far the best throwing option. War hammers are already better than heavy and light maces due to a +1 crit damage multiplier.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I accidently left out sicles unarmed and Kama.and animal forms. Rapiers scimitars falchions and khopeshes kukris repeaters and great crossbows already have the best damage profile and need no incentivising. Shurikens have weak base damage but other ways to make them by far the best throwing option. War hammers are already better than heavy and light maces due to a +1 crit damage multiplier.

Sickles should get a +4 to hit and damage against wheat.

[Tinari]

Sickles should get a +4 to hit and damage against wheat.

Too specific a bonus. Only one dungeon AFAIK has Wheaton in it.

[MonadRebelion]

D&D style, where certain weapons were legitimately meant to be better than others.


DnD is the clear winner for me. Balance, as you describe it, takes creativity out of the game. It makes choices pointless. It makes it impossible to stick intentionally go for a non-optimal build and approach the game for the puzzles that presents. It makes the game stupid, like playing chess with only queens. Realism is an utter waste of time. Things need to be 'real enough'. Realism leads to debates about dumb debates over issues that need not be determined for the fiction to work even though if they were carried over into the real real world they would be determined. Put another way, it's as pointless to have detailed discussions about the relations of 'physics' and magic as it is to talk about the number of hairs on Sherlock Holmes' head.