A +20 LR? That's all? You guys come cheap don'tcha?

[IronClan]

Things I've done to optimize a character that are being heavily nerfed and made no longer what I want to do with those characters:

2 XP stones invested in 3 MRR past lives that I would not have done (will go evasion on final life)
Multiple heavy armors crafted and farmed for (ingots and scales)
ToEE ingredients for a full armor and weapon, the weapon is now a much lesser choice, the armor is also no longer viable.
60 phlogs in TF weapons plus asundry scales and ingots
60 runs of FoT for a shield I no longer need, my Vanguard will be converted to something with enough DPS to actually be fun, he was just acceptable pre-nerf so there's no margin for being nerfed.
2 +1 LR used for Iconic "final" builds that will no longer be final
1 Alignment change
1 Shard 1 Seal and 1 Scroll Of the Sword of Shadows used on a Paladin Alt, that I now want to use on my new Centered Kensei unfortunately these characters are not interchangeable as the one has the CK gear (scale docents and Epic docents, while the other is fleshy and has TF heavy armor) and outmoded Heavy armor toon has the sword.

I am sure there's more so for now my "Tab" of things Turbine is royally screwing up is modest.

So if we're going to demand things I'll demand at least:

+20 LR's on every character
XP stone per account
A "Nerf survivors rewards box" per character with the following choices: 30 phlogs and ingots/scales enough to make a complete TF weapon, choice of any Shard/Seal/Scroll in the game, +3 LR, Alignment Change, 400 T1 mushrooms, 100 element mushrooms 1 red cage (and the T2 shrooms forgot about those).
a raiders reward box that contains 1 choice of any raid item from every raid in the game.
*

Okay that should about do it.

What? No they're not going to do that? They're not going to compensate a years worth of obviated choices and misdirected effort and lost play time? They're just going to carelessly throw my time and game play away? Yah don't say!? Yeah I know, and that's why they need to pump the brakes and not put these nerfs in.

> this is the space I put my canceled VIP screen shot in if these changes are implemented <

Please feel free to reserve your canceled VIP screen shot space in this thread if you feel similar.

[Vellrad]

Cant see if serious, troll or sarcasm.

[Enoach]

Things I've done to optimize a character that are being heavily nerfed and made no longer what I want to do with those characters:

2 XP stones invested in 3 MRR past lives that I would not have done (will go evasion on final life)
Multiple heavy armors crafted and farmed for (ingots and scales)
ToEE ingredients for a full armor and weapon, the weapon is now a much lesser choice, the armor is also no longer viable.
60 phlogs in TF weapons plus asundry scales and ingots
60 runs of FoT for a shield I no longer need, my Vanguard will be converted to something with enough DPS to actually be fun, he was just acceptable pre-nerf so there's no margin for being nerfed.
2 +1 LR used for Iconic "final" builds that will no longer be final
1 Alignment change
1 Shard 1 Seal and 1 Scroll Of the Sword of Shadows used on a Paladin Alt, that I now want to use on my new Centered Kensei unfortunately these characters are not interchangeable as the one has the CK gear (scale docents and Epic docents, while the other is fleshy and has TF heavy armor) and outmoded Heavy armor toon has the sword.

I am sure there's more so for now my "Tab" of things Turbine is royally screwing up is modest.

So if we're going to demand things I'll demand at least:

+20 LR's on every character
XP stone per account
A "Nerf survivors rewards box" per character with the following choices: 30 phlogs and ingots/scales enough to make a complete TF weapon, choice of any Shard/Seal/Scroll in the game, +3 LR, Alignment Change, 400 T1 mushrooms, 100 element mushrooms 1 red cage (and the T2 shrooms forgot about those).
a raiders reward box that contains 1 choice of any raid item from every raid in the game.
*

Okay that should about do it.

What? No they're not going to do that? They're not going to compensate a years worth of obviated choices and misdirected effort and lost play time? They're just going to carelessly throw my time and game play away? Yah don't say!? Yeah I know, and that's why they need to pump the brakes and not put these nerfs in.

> this is the space I put my canceled VIP screen shot in if these changes are implemented <

Please feel free to reserve your canceled VIP screen shot space in this thread if you feel similar.

I'm sorry you feel this way.

I'm going to ask but one question. During all of this time you spent building up your character(s) did you have fun?

[lifestaker]

Cant see if serious, troll or sarcasm.

I say trollcasm, but I did find it a good joke. Kinda like telling the clerk at the store that you want your money back for the lotto ticket you had purchased was not a winner.

[Nonesuch2008]

Cant see if serious, troll or sarcasm.

Yes.


I say trollcasm, but I did find it a good joke. Kinda like telling the clerk at the store that you want your money back for the lotto ticket you had purchased was not a winner.

Reverse irony at it's finest!

[Wulverine]

They're not going to compensate a years worth of obviated choices and misdirected effort and lost play time? They're just going to carelessly throw my time and game play away?

This sounds like you consider this gameplay as work? You should not be playing this game if that's the case. For your own health's sake.

Like another poster said. "Did you have fun?" That's all that should matter.

[Saekee]

Things I've done to optimize a character that are being heavily nerfed and made no longer what I want to do with those characters:

2 XP stones invested in 3 MRR past lives that I would not have done (will go evasion on final life)
Multiple heavy armors crafted and farmed for (ingots and scales)
ToEE ingredients for a full armor and weapon, the weapon is now a much lesser choice, the armor is also no longer viable.
60 phlogs in TF weapons plus asundry scales and ingots
60 runs of FoT for a shield I no longer need, my Vanguard will be converted to something with enough DPS to actually be fun, he was just acceptable pre-nerf so there's no margin for being nerfed.
2 +1 LR used for Iconic "final" builds that will no longer be final
1 Alignment change
1 Shard 1 Seal and 1 Scroll Of the Sword of Shadows used on a Paladin Alt, that I now want to use on my new Centered Kensei unfortunately these characters are not interchangeable as the one has the CK gear (scale docents and Epic docents, while the other is fleshy and has TF heavy armor) and outmoded Heavy armor toon has the sword.

I am sure there's more so for now my "Tab" of things Turbine is royally screwing up is modest.

So if we're going to demand things I'll demand at least:

+20 LR's on every character
XP stone per account
A "Nerf survivors rewards box" per character with the following choices: 30 phlogs and ingots/scales enough to make a complete TF weapon, choice of any Shard/Seal/Scroll in the game, +3 LR, Alignment Change, 400 T1 mushrooms, 100 element mushrooms 1 red cage (and the T2 shrooms forgot about those).
a raiders reward box that contains 1 choice of any raid item from every raid in the game.
*

Okay that should about do it.

What? No they're not going to do that? They're not going to compensate a years worth of obviated choices and misdirected effort and lost play time? They're just going to carelessly throw my time and game play away? Yah don't say!? Yeah I know, and that's why they need to pump the brakes and not put these nerfs in.

> this is the space I put my canceled VIP screen shot in if these changes are implemented <

Please feel free to reserve your canceled VIP screen shot space in this thread if you feel similar.

You are articulating what a number of players are feeling right now and it should be addressed.

I do not have the playtime to grind out endgame gear using phlogs etc but appreciate players who push the limits of the game for these items.

Simply because one does not have this issue does not mean it should be belittled. Part of the fun of this game is building out a character with gear; the leveling to 28 is the easy part.

[bartharok]

I enjoy making do with what i have, since it makes the game slightly more challenging.

Though i dont advice others to do so, since it may not be their idea of fun.

[Walking_Ride]

Had to grind for a couple months getting enough mats to craft 2x tier 3 thunderforged khopesh for my twf paladin and a fully upgraded toee set.

Now that holy sword no longer works on off hand weapons i can scrap the whole twf line with many ingredients including time and efforts wasted for nothing.

A simple +20 heart isn't enough to compensate for that.



> this is the space I put my canceled VIP screen shot in if these changes are implemented <


You are not the only one ;)

[Blastyswa]

Things I've done to optimize a character that are being heavily nerfed and made no longer what I want to do with those characters:

2 XP stones invested in 3 MRR past lives that I would not have done (will go evasion on final life)
Multiple heavy armors crafted and farmed for (ingots and scales)
ToEE ingredients for a full armor and weapon, the weapon is now a much lesser choice, the armor is also no longer viable.
60 phlogs in TF weapons plus asundry scales and ingots
60 runs of FoT for a shield I no longer need, my Vanguard will be converted to something with enough DPS to actually be fun, he was just acceptable pre-nerf so there's no margin for being nerfed.
2 +1 LR used for Iconic "final" builds that will no longer be final
1 Alignment change
1 Shard 1 Seal and 1 Scroll Of the Sword of Shadows used on a Paladin Alt, that I now want to use on my new Centered Kensei unfortunately these characters are not interchangeable as the one has the CK gear (scale docents and Epic docents, while the other is fleshy and has TF heavy armor) and outmoded Heavy armor toon has the sword.

I am sure there's more so for now my "Tab" of things Turbine is royally screwing up is modest.

So if we're going to demand things I'll demand at least:

+20 LR's on every character
XP stone per account
A "Nerf survivors rewards box" per character with the following choices: 30 phlogs and ingots/scales enough to make a complete TF weapon, choice of any Shard/Seal/Scroll in the game, +3 LR, Alignment Change, 400 T1 mushrooms, 100 element mushrooms 1 red cage (and the T2 shrooms forgot about those).
a raiders reward box that contains 1 choice of any raid item from every raid in the game.
*

Okay that should about do it.

What? No they're not going to do that? They're not going to compensate a years worth of obviated choices and misdirected effort and lost play time? They're just going to carelessly throw my time and game play away? Yah don't say!? Yeah I know, and that's why they need to pump the brakes and not put these nerfs in.

> this is the space I put my canceled VIP screen shot in if these changes are implemented <

Please feel free to reserve your canceled VIP screen shot space in this thread if you feel similar.

The MRR one I don't have a lot of sympathy for; warlock lives were taking about 24 hours of actual play time without xp pots because of how powerful the cleaves are in heroics, and MRR still helps when you fail a save or take damage that can be reduced by evasion (Unless you're at the MRR cap, which probably won't happen easily if using light+ armor). Heavy armor will still be viable; perhaps not as powerful as it is now, but that doesn't mean it's going to become a pajama party. I really think that they should just switch all binding statuses to BTA, which would reduce some of the less fun grinding (I still only have 1/13 characters with t3 thunderforged). However, echoing some other posts, if the grind is work you're not really playing.

[IronClan]

Cant see if serious, troll or sarcasm.

Yes.

Did I have fun? Like a lot of things that is a nuanced answer and not a black and white... the first few DoJ's were fun... does that mean the last 14 or so get a free pass and I don't get to complain? The first few MoD's were, some where worse than others... the last few were boring and if not for the GOAL of attaining cool loot I wouldn't have done them. SOme were fun because friends joined and we chatted and joked our way through despite the content, and some where a bigger chore because someone unlikable joined and proceeded to be his D-bag self over voice, hit on every female and talk about himself incessently... I'll never get those minutes back.

The answer is SOME of it was fun, and some was more like work. This is a natural byproduct of Turbine NEEDING players to replay content over and over... the other natural byproduct of this is that players call these repetitive tasks CHORES and FARMING and GRINDING. So as you all can surely see "fun" or "not fun" is a little simplistic to use as your justification for why Turbine doesn't need to respect the time and energy and emotional investment it's players put in.

While some of you whistling past the grave yard may talk a good game about not letting the door hit us on the way out, and Turbine not needing us, we all know that's just wide eyed bluster and fear as the game empties out more and more every day...

[Walking_Ride]

Yes.

Did I have fun? Like a lot of things that is a nuanced answer and not a black and white... the first few DoJ's were fun... does that mean the last 14 or so get a free pass and I don't get to complain? The first few MoD's were, some where worse than others... the last few were boring and if not for the GOAL of attaining cool loot I wouldn't have done them. SOme were fun because friends joined and we chatted and joked our way through despite the content, and some where a bigger chore because someone unlikable joined and proceeded to be his D-bag self over voice, hit on every female and talk about himself incessently... I'll never get those minutes back.

The answer is SOME of it was fun, and some was more like work. This is a natural byproduct of Turbine NEEDING players to replay content over and over... the other natural byproduct of this is that players call these repetitive tasks CHORES and FARMING and GRINDING. So as you all can surely see "fun" or "not fun" is a little simplistic to use as your justification for why Turbine doesn't need to respect the time and energy and emotional investment it's players put in. On the contrary Turbine's best practice is to foster a sense of investment and attachment in players toward their characters because it keeps us loging back in! by extention BREAKING that, making it all seem pointless and a waste of time, directly DISCOURAGES players from logging back in, me for example.

This is besides the point: my investment and play time are mine, even if i choose to do "work" or more fittingly: a chore; I still get to expect that my persistent characters in a persistent MMO style game not take tremendous backwards steps to the point of where they are undone and no longer worth playing. No longer what I WANTED to do with a character and have already invested in, which is now no longer worth doing and my time was wasted AGAINST MY WILL under FALSE PRETENSES of a direction they have chosen to abandon in mid stream.

While some of you whistling past the grave yard may talk a good game about not letting the door hit us on the way out, and Turbine not needing us, we all know that's just wide eyed bluster and fear as the game empties out more and more every day...

Problem is, almost 90% of the forum people don't even play the game. They play ddo general disscusions. Of course they don't care about us wasting our time.

[bartharok]

Problem is, almost 90% of the forum people don't even play the game. They play ddo general disscusions. Of course they don't care about us wasting our time.

Relax. Its not as bad as you think. Youll live, and find another build. Thats life.

[Jetrule]

The problem in spending a lot of money on a character or characters, is that they are so subject to the winds or whims of change. The same holds true for spending a lot of money on a video game in any way. The unfortunate reality is that we must view the money spent on video games as rent money rather than purchasing property. The game whatever it is will change or die or both over time. The time and money spent will not return to us. I look at it like buying a book to spend time reading and enjoying. The only thing that I will keep from the book are memories ideas and experience. If the book becomes unpleasant and unrewarding I will stop reading it. If I gained insight or enjoyment, or found people to engage with over the book. I will pay more money later for another book by the author or a similar book. In the end I guess it is all entertainment money/time.

[Darkmits]

If instead of this huge, gigantic, never-before-seen-and-never-will-be-seen in any video game in the past, present or future, and in this-or-any-parallel-universe-that-may-or-may-not-exist nerf wasn't a nerf, but instead they said, "we're going to buff the damage of all builds except the ones that people have built TF weapons around, and buff all enemies in quests to bring them to the performance of the newly buffed builds", would you still ask for what you typed in the opening post?

[changelingamuck]

What? No they're not going to do that? They're not going to compensate a years worth of obviated choices and misdirected effort and lost play time? They're just going to carelessly throw my time and game play away? Yah don't say!? Yeah I know, and that's why they need to pump the brakes and not put these nerfs in.

> this is the space I put my canceled VIP screen shot in if these changes are implemented <

Please feel free to reserve your canceled VIP screen shot space in this thread if you feel similar.

Metaphorically speaking, you heavily invested in ocean-view real estate property with flashing signs posted all over saying "This land may be affected by coastal erosion." And now *gasp*, you're shocked! I tell you, shocked! that the shoreline has changed. And now everybody has to know about how upset you are.

At this point, everyone who reads the forums fairly regularly understands that you're outraged. Several dozen more posts helpfully informing us that you're upset aren't going to better inform us about your feelings.

Nobody who has looked over the forum threads regarding the balance pass over the last week is thinking to themselves, "Hmm, I wonder how IronClan feels about all this. I haven't seen him mention anything about his thoughts on this!"

But please, do tell us more.

[IronClan]

The problem in spending a lot of money on a character or characters, is that they are so subject to the winds or whims of change. The same holds true for spending a lot of money on a video game in any way. The unfortunate reality is that we must view the money spent on video games as rent money rather than purchasing property. The game whatever it is will change or die or both over time. The time and money spent will not return to us. I look at it like buying a book to spend time reading and enjoying. The only thing that I will keep from the book are memories ideas and experience. If the book becomes unpleasant and unrewarding I will stop reading it. If I gained insight or enjoyment, or found people to engage with over the book. I will pay more money later for another book by the author or a similar book. In the end I guess it is all entertainment money/time.

You can wish for and hope and want people to be really understanding and have a nice well adjusted "C'est la vie" attitude towards changes like this.

But here's what actually happens:
People feel their time and money were wasted by changes that aren't strictly necessary or even very important to them personally so they leave. Nerfs cause MMO's players to leave period. MMO earns less money and folds up. See Starwars Galaxies for an example (in extremis example albeit). A game with way more hype and pedigree than DDO.

IMO these changes are almost all really poorly designed, they have more undesirable outcomes and repercussions than clearly the Dev's are aware of (like reducing diversity of weapons and tactical builds) and will unnecessarily and brutishly interrupt many of my characters and cause me to have to go "back to the drawing board". In a game that CHARGES for respeccing like DDO does wrecking builds and asking me to pay to fix them is suspect behavour and that's being charitable.

[IronClan]

Metaphorically speaking, you heavily invested in ocean-view real estate property with flashing signs posted all over saying "This land may be affected by coastal erosion." And now *gasp*, you're shocked! I tell you, shocked! that the shoreline has changed. And now everybody has to know about how upset you are.

At this point, everyone who reads the forums fairly regularly understands that you're outraged. Several dozen more posts helpfully informing us that you're upset aren't going to better inform us about your feelings.

Nobody who has looked over the forum threads regarding the balance pass over the last week is thinking to themselves, "Hmm, I wonder how IronClan feels about all this. I haven't seen him mention anything about his thoughts on this!"

But please, do tell us more.

You clicked the thread, do you not see the irony of pretending you didn't want to read it?


In any case, the point stands, your metaphor is nonsense, MMO companies choose or don't choose to nerf, attributing it to nature only suggests a meek acceptance of it; and gives the Corporation (not natural force) named Turbine cart blanche to do anything it wants to you, without protest. This is more like the local construction company wanting to saw the deck I built off the house because they technically own the lien to it.

"dear Mr or Ms Ironclan, recently many of your neighbors have complained that your deck is too good, it's shaming their decks which are not nearly as strong or impressive, for this reason we intend to unbolt it from it's ledger and saw it's piers off at the ground. You may of course replace it with a stoop at your own expense so long as it's not better than your neighbors"

In the end it does not matter one bit that Turbine can "do whatever it pleases" in changing the game, they still have customers they theoretically want to keep playing DDO and if they don't want to lose them unnecessarily they are better served nerfing very carefully and not with big roundhouse cleaves like taking ALL the MRR out of armor. or backing up +20 tactical DC dump truck to Fighter and only fighter, making it the defacto "control Fighter" mimicking NWN's ultra dumbed down casual oriented class diversity.

If you don't wish to read my opinion on this or any other thing, there are multiple ways to solve that, complaining about me posting my opinion isn't one of them (it's certainly not going to do you any good). For the record anyone that's been around for a while has seen me posting many things that support the game, defend the Dev's, and argue with people who are angry or ranting about something. That's what forums are all about. If I am ranting more than usual it's because the Dev's are doing more than the usual amount of stuff that seems from my viewpoint to be poorly considered.

[Chai]

Advocates selling of character power/character progress dismissing all argumentation against it as tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.

Runs full on into the trap previously warned about after dismissing the warnings.

Demands reimbursement of purchased items.

[changelingamuck]

If you don't wish to read my opinion on this or any other thing, there are multiple ways to solve that, complaining about me posting my opinion isn't one of them (it's certainly not going to do you any good).

I don't have a problem with reading your opinion. I have a problem with reading your exact same opinion using different wording in different places over and over and over and over again.

There's a difference between posting one's opinion and beating people over the head with it. You moved beyond the realm of posting one's opinion into the area of beating people over the head with it about a dozen posts ago.

As for me clicking on this thread in the first place, I didn't look at who started it before clicking on it. But really, if I just moved my cursor around in any given direction on the forum page and randomly clicked on something, there's a good chance I would be taken to a page where you post your opinion.

[Walking_Ride]

I don't have a problem with reading your opinion. I have a problem with reading your exact same opinion using different wording in different places over and over and over and over again.

There's a difference between posting one's opinion and beating people over the head with it. You moved beyond the realm of posting one's opinion into the area of beating people over the head with it about a dozen posts ago.

As for me clicking on this thread in the first place, I didn't look at who started it before clicking on it. But really, if I just moved my cursor around in any given direction on the forum page and randomly clicked on something, there's a good chance I would be taken to a page where you post your opinion.

You don't like what he is saying because he is right.

[Qhualor]

Things I've done to optimize a character that are being heavily nerfed and made no longer what I want to do with those characters:

2 XP stones invested in 3 MRR past lives that I would not have done (will go evasion on final life)
Multiple heavy armors crafted and farmed for (ingots and scales)
ToEE ingredients for a full armor and weapon, the weapon is now a much lesser choice, the armor is also no longer viable.
60 phlogs in TF weapons plus asundry scales and ingots
60 runs of FoT for a shield I no longer need, my Vanguard will be converted to something with enough DPS to actually be fun, he was just acceptable pre-nerf so there's no margin for being nerfed.
2 +1 LR used for Iconic "final" builds that will no longer be final
1 Alignment change
1 Shard 1 Seal and 1 Scroll Of the Sword of Shadows used on a Paladin Alt, that I now want to use on my new Centered Kensei unfortunately these characters are not interchangeable as the one has the CK gear (scale docents and Epic docents, while the other is fleshy and has TF heavy armor) and outmoded Heavy armor toon has the sword.

I am sure there's more so for now my "Tab" of things Turbine is royally screwing up is modest.

So if we're going to demand things I'll demand at least:

+20 LR's on every character
XP stone per account
A "Nerf survivors rewards box" per character with the following choices: 30 phlogs and ingots/scales enough to make a complete TF weapon, choice of any Shard/Seal/Scroll in the game, +3 LR, Alignment Change, 400 T1 mushrooms, 100 element mushrooms 1 red cage (and the T2 shrooms forgot about those).
a raiders reward box that contains 1 choice of any raid item from every raid in the game.
*

Okay that should about do it.

What? No they're not going to do that? They're not going to compensate a years worth of obviated choices and misdirected effort and lost play time? They're just going to carelessly throw my time and game play away? Yah don't say!? Yeah I know, and that's why they need to pump the brakes and not put these nerfs in.

> this is the space I put my canceled VIP screen shot in if these changes are implemented <

Please feel free to reserve your canceled VIP screen shot space in this thread if you feel similar.

Great suggestions. Another free past life I can earn running any class I want and more reasons to not run a raid by giving me free raid loot.

[MaeveTuohy]

This sounds like you consider this gameplay as work? You should not be playing this game if that's the case. For your own health's sake.

Like another poster said. "Did you have fun?" That's all that should matter.

If a person's investment of time and effort can be so blithely dismissed, then Turbine can equally casually hand out the many digital (essentially free) goods he is requesting.

Turbine, just do it and have fun!

[Walking_Ride]

This sounds like you consider this gameplay as work? You should not be playing this game if that's the case. For your own health's sake.

Like another poster said. "Did you have fun?" That's all that should matter.

Having my only build destroyed and huge amount of thunderforged/toee mats wasted does not translate to fun.

[Chai]

You don't like what he is saying because he is right.

Not really.

I support what hes saying because hes right, today in the here and now, but wrong to advocate selling character power over years of time while dismissing criticism of it as conspiracy theory in the past. People can either learn something from this, or continue to dismiss the warnings as conspiracy theory, which will cause more of the same to occur.

[Axeyu]

Having my only build destroyed and huge amount of thunderforged/toee mats wasted does not translate to fun.

Such drama. The meta always changes, just adapt.

It's very likely that Eshroud will make the stuff you mentioned obsolete anyways, are you saying that that shouldn't happen so that your time has not been "wasted"?

[IronClan]

Such drama. The meta always changes, just adapt.

It's very likely that Eshroud will make the stuff you mentioned obsolete anyways, are you saying that that shouldn't happen so that your time has not been "wasted"?

When the changes worsen gameplay, weapon and build diversity (IMO these changes do that) then it's better to not adapt and to push back via feedback.

Examples of things we didn't adapt to:
Ghostbane (not fully reversed but none the less)
Offerwall
ED XP loss on epic reincarnate
Protector as a Cleric tree
* I'll think of more
a host of lesser nerfs and poorly regarded features that the Dev's reconsidered due to feedback

Adapting to everything is not the answer.

In addition MANY features and announced changes have been mitigated or compromises forced due to intensive feedback... a Dozen of "what the hell were they thinking" types from just the '14 PC alone that I can't even talk about.

So no just having a such is life attitude towards changes you don't like seems contra indicated.

[BigErkyKid]

To the OP:

I agree that game mechanics and rules should not be changing so frequently. But this is the story of DDO, every producer has a vision and the game makes wild swings.

The only reason for wild swings (nerfs and massive buffs) is that something was previously wrong before, which in itself obviously indicates poor design to start with. However, once a bad decision has been identified, should it be mended or should the game just pile on it and leave it as it is? I believe they should fix it.

IMHO they shouldn't have changed continuously the core classes. Adding new races, perhaps new PrEs, adding levels, new items. Lateral and vertical expansions of the game that can be nicely combined with the existing mechanics due to multi classing. Constant obsolescence of characters / items is not an appealing trait for a game.

The nerf bat will beat the game whether we want it or not. Now let's make sure that the devs think through the changes. So far they have not done a good job with that. They nerfed ranged paladins to backtrack (so it was a bad decision to start with), they broke the balance between swash weapons (it is extremely simple to compute it, why do they now have to go back and change it? Is it an oversight or deliberate?), they are nerfing all the named weapons with expanded ranges (most were barely competitive in end game as it is), they hit with a glancing blow a ton of toons that weren't OP (non OP class maul and warhammer builds). They kick DC in the nuggets.

Some change will come and I welcome it. But please make sure you get it right this time. Constant massive changes to mechanics and classes are upsetting.

[Darkmits]

However, I agree with OP point. These changes are very drastic and the devs don't care at all about player time only developer time.I may be sounding like a broken record, but how drastic are the changes? Has there been actual math to point how longer it will take now, before respeccing for the new cookiecutter specs, to defeat the average boss? I'm not talking about average weapon damage, I'm talking about actual player damage as a whole kit. If it's in the area of 5-10%, it's not exactly drastic. If it's 20%-30%, eh, you're on to something. If it's more than that, then indeed there will need to be compensation to certain enhancement trees, epic destines or whatever. But that assumes that the builds being hit by this nerf weren't already 30%+ ahead of the median, because then they were broken and overpowered.

[slarden]

I may be sounding like a broken record, but how drastic are the changes? Has there been actual math to point how longer it will take now, before respeccing for the new cookiecutter specs, to defeat the average boss? I'm not talking about average weapon damage, I'm talking about actual player damage as a whole kit. If it's in the area of 5-10%, it's not exactly drastic. If it's 20%-30%, eh, you're on to something. If it's more than that, then indeed there will need to be compensation to certain enhancement trees, epic destines or whatever. But that assumes that the builds being hit by this nerf weren't already 30%+ ahead of the median, because then they were broken and overpowered.

Not an issue for some builds, and very drastic for others. Yo don't think a twf paladin might want to recraft a great sword or great axe?

I am sure a significant enough # of people will leave the game over it, the question is how many and does Turbine care.

[KevinMullins]

IronClan is right. These changes affect more than just a character's enhancements, epic destiny, past lifes you have taken to make a build you want to play. It effects gear , tomes ( ability and skill ), and weapons. Bascially everything that makes your character. I hope Turbine understands this, and understands basic customer service. It is easier to keep a current customer happy than to find a new one. I am hopefull and will await to see what happens with the upcoming update.

[IronClan]

I will go with sargasm.

However, I agree with OP point. These changes are very drastic and the devs don't care at all about player time only developer time.

There will be some player loss for sure - how much is the question. Turbine could and should do more to ease the transition, but if I was to bet I would bet they will totally screw this up and underestimate the backlash of things like thunderforged crafting and named items.

Again the two of us agreeing on something is that rare that it should be some indication that these nerfs aren't kosher.

I think people who didn't dupe Phlogs or who took the long slow play of just doing them off timer are going to be the most angry about this. The ones who don't do the forums who will be blind sided by the senselessness of it. There's nothing wrong with many of the builds that will be nerfed by these changes.

This is going to reduce the effectiveness of Vanguard Paladins (lots of new players gravitate towards this as well as people who like S&B for flavor and aesthetic reasons) by so much it will feel like a massive nerf. It's the people who don't come to the forums these changes will impact most... they'll just leave quietly like they have been for years.

[Walking_Ride]

I may be sounding like a broken record, but how drastic are the changes? Has there been actual math to point how longer it will take now, before respeccing for the new cookiecutter specs, to defeat the average boss? I'm not talking about average weapon damage, I'm talking about actual player damage as a whole kit. If it's in the area of 5-10%, it's not exactly drastic. If it's 20%-30%, eh, you're on to something. If it's more than that, then indeed there will need to be compensation to certain enhancement trees, epic destines or whatever. But that assumes that the builds being hit by this nerf weren't already 30%+ ahead of the median, because then they were broken and overpowered.

My twf paladin build was already behind in terms of dps by 30% compared to rangers when tempest/deepwood got their passes.

For me, it was fine this way. Now they are making holy sword not work with off hand weapons, which means i am loosing out on a +1 critical multiplier and +1 critical threat range which translates to +26% dps loss. Now rangers are ahead 30 + 26 = 56% in terms of dps when twf.

Not trying to be rude, but the developer in charge does either hate paladins from the bottom of his heart, does not have a clue, is enjoying messing with the community.

[Dragavon]

I'm sorry you feel this way.

I'm going to ask but one question. During all of this time you spent building up your character(s) did you have fun?

I do not care what they may change, I do not care what they nerf or what they boost.

I play DDO because I enjoy playing DDO. Enjoying doing quests with my friends in my guild is the only reward I am looking for on DDO. If they change something fundamental about my favourite character types I will adapt. When I do not enjoy playing anymore I will stop.

[zerit2002]

How I feel about my shields getting nerfed:

http://s10.postimg.org/fhugzz05z/Screen_Shot00003.png

I don't have a VIP to cancel, but if my vanguard is nerfed I think I may take another year+ long break.
And with Fallout 4 around the corner it should be quite easy to stay away from DDO.

[Vulkoorex]

I think this will go like how the Monster Champions were first introduced. Complaints about it. VIP cancellations. Monster Champions dialed back a bit.

[Postumus]

> this is the space I put my canceled VIP screen shot in if these changes are implemented <




This reminds of that story about the shepherd boy and the imaginary wolf. Good stuff!

[the_one_dwarfforged]

they should give every character a +20 heart, and introduce thunderforged mats recycling, thats all.

the whole se/sh/sc demands are unnecessary, overboard, and seriously laughable. you want to give everyone an epic xuum? is that really a good idea? and its because you made an esos on one character instead of another? well i guess nobody told you, but the risk that you arent making it on the best toon for it to be on for the rest of the games life has always been a risk, the new balance changes have nothing to do with that.

and i think its questionable that you are raging over your characters being nerfed because now you wont get to play them. are they the builds you want to play, or are they the builds you thought were good in the current state of the game? if youre a build hopper, going from fotm to fotm then this is just business as usual. if you prefer to play certain builds and stick with them, then just stick with them. things may not be as bad as you think, and even if they are there is challenge in finding ways to succeed despite being half gimped.

[Wipey]

Right now, vanguard pally is 200+ prr, 120+ ac, 1200 hp, 60+ saves character with ~100 stun, ~850 silver flame pots and 3.5 - 4.5k dps.
Pretty sure it's gonna be just fine after the nerfhammer.

Noone likes their characters position on the "food chain ladder" changed but long time players should objectively look at the grand scheme of things - our characters are WAY stronger than needed for the content we have.

[IronClan]

they should give every character a +20 heart, and introduce thunderforged mats recycling, thats all.

the whole se/sh/sc demands are unnecessary, overboard, and seriously laughable. you want to give everyone an epic xuum? is that really a good idea? and its because you made an esos on one character instead of another? well i guess nobody told you, but the risk that you arent making it on the best toon for it to be on for the rest of the games life has always been a risk, the new balance changes have nothing to do with that.

and i think its questionable that you are raging over your characters being nerfed because now you wont get to play them. are they the builds you want to play, or are they the builds you thought were good in the current state of the game? if youre a build hopper, going from fotm to fotm then this is just business as usual. if you prefer to play certain builds and stick with them, then just stick with them. things may not be as bad as you think, and even if they are there is challenge in finding ways to succeed despite being half gimped.

You're certainly entitled to as little as you see fit. However I will say this as a negotiating tactic shooting for the bare minimum is liable to get you less than the bare minimum.... Regardless I don't want LR+20's I don't want TF mats back, I want this Nerf to be reconsidered and at least a compromise reached in place of these heavy handed nerfs that have more collateral damage and unintended repercussions than they do positive effects on balance.

[IronClan]

Right now, vanguard pally is 200+ prr, 120+ ac, 1200 hp, 60+ saves character with ~100 stun, ~850 silver flame pots and 3.5 - 4.5k dps.
Pretty sure it's gonna be just fine after the nerfhammer.

Noone likes their characters position on the "food chain ladder" changed but long time players should objectively look at the grand scheme of things - our characters are WAY stronger than needed for the content we have.

Show me the video of that character doing that DPS. You're inflating every single one of those numbers, your AC is 80 ish if you're DPS focused, 120 AC besides still being irrelevant in EE is a large AP investment in Defender tree. a DPS vanguard has 160 or 170PRR, 200 costs significant DPS, heal amp that good requires gear and KotC AP's that cost DPS, Hit Points like that usually mean Defender AP's that cost DPS, 100 stun is about 10 more than my 91 stun DPS vanguard, those 9 DC's are coming from somewhere that costs DPS and your 3.5k-4.5 DPS is bruntsmash multi boosted DPS... Saves are accurate enough.

3.5 to 4.5k BTW is roughly half what a TWF with 150PRR and 1000hps does in the same tests. So tell me mr Objectivity is 200 more hps and 6% more PRR mitigation worth the 4,000 less DPS? Call me crazy but that seems just a tiny wee bit high of a price to pay... (150PRR = 60% 200PRR =66%) especially when it's going to be nerfed harder than a Ranger or Barb TWF are going to be nerfed.

[Qhualor]

I think this will go like how the Monster Champions were first introduced. Complaints about it. VIP cancellations. Monster Champions dialed back a bit.

unfortunately, I don't doubt it.

devs push out what they want in their name of balance with 2 weeks of discussion and 2 days of player testing

pitchforks and torches "my build suxs naow!"

devs put back some of the power "due to player feedback we are reinstating the power creep pre-U28."

game is too easy threads "no its not too easy" "yeah-huh" "na-uh"

devs push out what they want in their name of balance with 2 weeks of discussion and 2 days of player testing

rinse/repeat

[p4ined_one]

Things I've done to optimize a character that are being heavily nerfed and made no longer what I want to do with those characters:

2 XP stones invested in 3 MRR past lives that I would not have done (will go evasion on final life)
Multiple heavy armors crafted and farmed for (ingots and scales)
ToEE ingredients for a full armor and weapon, the weapon is now a much lesser choice, the armor is also no longer viable.
60 phlogs in TF weapons plus asundry scales and ingots
60 runs of FoT for a shield I no longer need, my Vanguard will be converted to something with enough DPS to actually be fun, he was just acceptable pre-nerf so there's no margin for being nerfed.
2 +1 LR used for Iconic "final" builds that will no longer be final
1 Alignment change
1 Shard 1 Seal and 1 Scroll Of the Sword of Shadows used on a Paladin Alt, that I now want to use on my new Centered Kensei unfortunately these characters are not interchangeable as the one has the CK gear (scale docents and Epic docents, while the other is fleshy and has TF heavy armor) and outmoded Heavy armor toon has the sword.

I am sure there's more so for now my "Tab" of things Turbine is royally screwing up is modest.

So if we're going to demand things I'll demand at least:

+20 LR's on every character
XP stone per account
A "Nerf survivors rewards box" per character with the following choices: 30 phlogs and ingots/scales enough to make a complete TF weapon, choice of any Shard/Seal/Scroll in the game, +3 LR, Alignment Change, 400 T1 mushrooms, 100 element mushrooms 1 red cage (and the T2 shrooms forgot about those).
a raiders reward box that contains 1 choice of any raid item from every raid in the game.
*

Okay that should about do it.

What? No they're not going to do that? They're not going to compensate a years worth of obviated choices and misdirected effort and lost play time? They're just going to carelessly throw my time and game play away? Yah don't say!? Yeah I know, and that's why they need to pump the brakes and not put these nerfs in.

> this is the space I put my canceled VIP screen shot in if these changes are implemented <

Please feel free to reserve your canceled VIP screen shot space in this thread if you feel similar.

excellent rant sir...
I hope somebody with power pays attention to this as example of what they are causing...
http://s4.postimg.org/hanfmvdy5/postableclap.gif (http://postimage.org/)

[Erdrique]

I definitely understand the frustration with the proposed balance changes for a number of players. I'm hoping personally that these changes won't be so dramatic as many believe. There is still some time that they may still be tweaked. I'll be curious to see how these play out on Lamannia over the next few weeks. But it goes without saying that we will see changes in the game and I'm sure we'll have more coming around again in another year or two. It is unfortunately the nature of the beast. I just take them in stride because I like to play this great game just hoping that others will feel the same.

[diasho2]

Things I've done to optimize a character that are being heavily nerfed and made no longer what I want to do with those characters:

2 XP stones invested in 3 MRR past lives that I would not have done (will go evasion on final life)
Multiple heavy armors crafted and farmed for (ingots and scales)
ToEE ingredients for a full armor and weapon, the weapon is now a much lesser choice, the armor is also no longer viable.
60 phlogs in TF weapons plus asundry scales and ingots
60 runs of FoT for a shield I no longer need, my Vanguard will be converted to something with enough DPS to actually be fun, he was just acceptable pre-nerf so there's no margin for being nerfed.
2 +1 LR used for Iconic "final" builds that will no longer be final
1 Alignment change
1 Shard 1 Seal and 1 Scroll Of the Sword of Shadows used on a Paladin Alt, that I now want to use on my new Centered Kensei unfortunately these characters are not interchangeable as the one has the CK gear (scale docents and Epic docents, while the other is fleshy and has TF heavy armor) and outmoded Heavy armor toon has the sword.

I am sure there's more so for now my "Tab" of things Turbine is royally screwing up is modest.

So if we're going to demand things I'll demand at least:

+20 LR's on every character
XP stone per account
A "Nerf survivors rewards box" per character with the following choices: 30 phlogs and ingots/scales enough to make a complete TF weapon, choice of any Shard/Seal/Scroll in the game, +3 LR, Alignment Change, 400 T1 mushrooms, 100 element mushrooms 1 red cage (and the T2 shrooms forgot about those).
a raiders reward box that contains 1 choice of any raid item from every raid in the game.
*

Okay that should about do it.

What? No they're not going to do that? They're not going to compensate a years worth of obviated choices and misdirected effort and lost play time? They're just going to carelessly throw my time and game play away? Yah don't say!? Yeah I know, and that's why they need to pump the brakes and not put these nerfs in.

> this is the space I put my canceled VIP screen shot in if these changes are implemented <

Please feel free to reserve your canceled VIP screen shot space in this thread if you feel similar.

We all know that those that post here are not the majority of the game, however, based on those I talk to in pugs the feeling of most of those that I have come across range from hopeful scepticism to flat out rage. Many are already looking for other games in case it is as bad as they fear, some long time players that were planning on returning with the lvl 30 update have changed their minds. A few are happy and looking forward to greater difficulty, I add this because I don't want this to sound like everyone is against the changes, because that is not true.

What is true is far more are vehemently opposed to the changes, at least on Thelanis, than those that support them, and Turbine stands to lose far more than they could possibly gain if they pursue this with out considering the results.

They gave away raiders boxes and +20 hearts in the past. A change to this many characters, negating so much grinding, so much real money investment, and so much time is likely to cause a massive issue with the game's profit due to an upset player base if they don't do something to compensate players for what they feel they have lost.

To those who say but you had fun.... or it is turbine/wb can do ......

It is fun to work for a goal not fun to have that goal torn from you after reaching it.

A business has a delicate relationship with its customers. A business works as it provides goods and/or services its customers want. when a business changes its customers accept or reject those changes based on how their continued support.

If a business drives away customers it must replace them with new customers. DDO has not been bringing in massive numbers of customers so business should be focused on keeping customers or bringing back old ones, or finding better marketing methods to offset player loss due to upcoming changes.

This point is for all of us posting here. We don't know their numbers. It may be that they have some data that says these changes will bring in new customers to offset those it will drive away. It may be that they hope these changes will silence some of the very vocal group crying to make the game harder, or it may just be that these are changes that are a bandaid on a bullet hole. Taking a massive shotgun approach to changes so something is done regardless of what the results may be.

[HernandoCortez]

/Signed, OP.

[redoubt]

During all of this time you spent building up your character(s) did you have fun?

Yes, but after awhile of building and getting kicked in the junk, then rebuilding and getting kicked in the junk, repeat for 9 years....

[Thrudh]

no longer viable.

Am I the only person on these forums who understands the word "viable"?

[Thrudh]

Such drama. The meta always changes, just adapt.

It's very likely that Eshroud will make the stuff you mentioned obsolete anyways, are you saying that that shouldn't happen so that your time has not been "wasted"?

This. How can anyone have played this game (or any MMO) so long, and still threaten to quit because the game changes?

[Thrudh]

I wouldn't accept anyone with that low dps into my raid groups. Even on epic normal.

You actually screen who comes with you on epic normal raids? Most players I know just take the first 11 (or shortman) and go.

[Zarqor]

You actually screen who comes with you on epic normal raids? Most players I know just take the first 11 (or shortman) and go.

Apparently some people need to be carried through raids even on EN.

[Darkmits]

This. How can anyone have played this game (or any MMO) so long, and still threaten to quit because the game changes?It's not a simple change that makes you quit, it's the straw that broke the camel's back. A lot of changes that make the game be something entirely different over what you were used to and like as well can make a player quit, even if it takes years to implement them. I used to play WoW for 5.5 years before quitting over: The intentional removal of the need to communicate in heroic dungeons, the intentional change to grant more and better rewards to players using automated tools for downscaled content compared to players who were doing harder content through coordination, the intentional change of healing from a resource-management-to-avoid-overhealing system to a spam-heals-even-if-everyone-is-at-100%, the intentional removal and nerfing of all content outside of hardcore raiding so that absolutely everything in the game is not just solo-friendly, but solo-forced except for rated bgs and mythic raiding, and the intentional removal of professions as a useful perk because some snowflakes demanded that they shouldn't have to level a profession that could take like just one Saturday.

However, there have been changes as well for the better: Improvement of class balance so that not every mage is fire, not every paladin is holy, not every priest is disc, not every druid is resto, not every warrior is prot etc., the improvement of UI elements to provide more useful information with less clicks, the improvement of storylines so that the player feels a change in the world and doesn't just do fetch and kill quests, the improvement of having tabs for everything collectible, increasing stack amount to reduce clutter and help organising, etc.

DDO is also undergoing changes. Some changes are improvements, some are not, and always subjectively. For example, these critical threat changes are an improvement in my eyes because when you score a crit 30% of time, then you don't feel like scoring a crit but instead like being penalised when you don't. In the eyes of other players however it's not an improvement, because they have spent a lot of time and ingame resources to take advantage of this high-crit rate, and they see all that now go to waste.

[Chai]

This. How can anyone have played this game (or any MMO) so long, and still threaten to quit because the game changes?

The only issue I have with the constant changes in DDO is respec costs either time to grind a heart or money to buy it, where in most MMOs its free.

If they gave even one free +0 LR a month they could nerf and buff and change the game to their hearts content as far as Im concerned. But if every time they throw my characters out of wack with some game change that makes them B level characters, and I have to pay either time or money if I want to respec back to an A level character, Im going to do the same thing I always have and park all but one or maybe two characters tops, and play minimally until they get their stuff together. If that never happens and the game keeps changing all the time, then I play 1-2 characters tops until they turn the lights off which equates to making far less money off me because the less I am in game, the less likely I will spend money on other stuff.

[bartharok]

Am I the only person on these forums who understands the word "viable"?

I have long considered making a forumite-english dictionary.

[Tinari]

The only issue I have with the constant changes in DDO is respec costs either time to grind a heart or money to buy it, where in most MMOs its free.

If they gave even one free +0 LR a month they could nerf and buff and change the game to their hearts content as far as Im concerned. But if every time they throw my characters out of wack with some game change that makes them B level characters, and I have to pay either time or money if I want to respec back to an A level character, Im going to do the same thing I always have and park all but one or maybe two characters tops, and play minimally until they get their stuff together. If that never happens and the game keeps changing all the time, then I play 1-2 characters tops until they turn the lights off which equates to making far less money off me because the less I am in game, the less likely I will spend money on other stuff.

I'm not 100% positive of this, but I think in most games the respecs are cheap/free because in most MMOs, a respec is pretty much cheap/meaningless. I'm not sure how many different MMOs we're thinking of, but just thinking of WoW (Due to it's famous nature) if things change, you drop a pittance and you can respec, but your choices and the real impact of anything you do is so droll and meaningless that why does it matter?

I think people get upset in DDO because their choices are actually important. That's something DDO has that most games don't and I think that's great. I've never had a change happen in DDO since I started playing that has ever upset me. Mostly because I never invest in top-tier "builds" and I never deal with crafting... :3 (Seriously, I don't even have a single Greensteel item if that means anything).

[Wipey]

Show me the video of that character doing that DPS. You're inflating every single one of those numbers, your AC is 80 ish if you're DPS focused, 120 AC besides still being irrelevant in EE is a large AP investment in Defender tree. a DPS vanguard has 160 or 170PRR, 200 costs significant DPS, heal amp that good requires gear and KotC AP's that cost DPS, Hit Points like that usually mean Defender AP's that cost DPS, 100 stun is about 10 more than my 91 stun DPS vanguard, those 9 DC's are coming from somewhere that costs DPS and your 3.5k-4.5 DPS is bruntsmash multi boosted DPS... Saves are accurate enough.

Sure why not, it's Sunday. I play on potato and Bandicam doesn't really help so quality is low.

Yes, 3.5 - 4.5k is Bruntsmash - I type those numbers because everybody else is using it as a base here or ingame.
I know it's not ideal.

I don't know what encounter would be better to demonstrate "dps". So here's Tharno, Zeligat and Kelno.
It's maybe 3k in average ? My character is not completionist, doesn't have monk lives and still has +4 tomes ( I don't support p2w store ).
Also forgot to swap to seeker neck for Kelno and show hjeal amp - it's actually 817 from SF pots.
Enhancements and stats are shown at the end of Break in the ice vid.

My point still stands whether is 2 or 3 or over 9000 dps ( heck EEs weren't that bad on my stupid elf tempest before the "balance" pass ). It's still too easy - THE HIGHEST difficulty in mmorpg SHOULD NOT be soloable.


hhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQnLwtuBaww

Break in the ice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiAtJaWsfFk)

Devil's Details (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2t8v9-Hsek)

Zeligat - WGU miniboss (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmcZV8PHXGQ)


Your dps is laughable at best. I wouldn't accept anyone with that low dps into my raid groups. Even on epic normal.

Looks like missed lifetime opportunity for me, you are on Thelanis no ?
So I am gonna have to gimp EE raids on Ghallanda only. I don't know why I am allowed to join or invited to Sestra's, Eth's or Captain Crew's runs for last few years.
Please don't tell anyone but I sometimes bring my <500 dps cleric or wizard or 1k dps fvs caster into EE Doj, Mod or Thunderholme raids shortman.

[BigErkyKid]

The only issue I have with the constant changes in DDO is respec costs either time to grind a heart or money to buy it, where in most MMOs its free.



Well this and items, I;d say. Crafting something that gets nerfed makes you feel stupid.

[bartharok]

Well this and items, I;d say. Crafting something that gets nerfed makes you feel stupid.

What makes me feel stupid is crafting the wrong thing.

But nerfs rarely hit me hard, since i dont stay at cap for long on any life.

[Walking_Ride]

Sure why not, it's Sunday. I play on potato and Bandicam doesn't really help so quality is low.

Yes, 3.5 - 4.5k is Bruntsmash - I type those numbers because everybody else is using it as a base here or ingame.
I know it's not ideal.

I don't know what encounter would be better to demonstrate "dps". So here's Tharno, Zeligat and Kelno.
It's maybe 3k in average ? My character is not completionist, doesn't have monk lives and still has +4 tomes ( I don't support p2w store ).
Also forgot to swap to seeker neck for Kelno and show hjeal amp - it's actually 817 from SF pots.
Enhancements and stats are shown at the end of Break in the ice vid.

My point still stands whether is 2 or 3 or over 9000 dps ( heck EEs weren't that bad on my stupid elf tempest before the "balance" pass ). It's still too easy - THE HIGHEST difficulty in mmorpg SHOULD NOT be soloable.


hhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQnLwtuBaww

Break in the ice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiAtJaWsfFk)

Devil's Details (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2t8v9-Hsek)

Zeligat - WGU miniboss (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmcZV8PHXGQ)


Looks like missed lifetime opportunity for me, you are on Thelanis no ?
So I am gonna have to gimp EE raids on Ghallanda only. I don't know why I am allowed to join or invited to Sestra's, Eth's or Captain Crew's runs for last few years.
Please don't tell anyone but I sometimes bring my <500 dps cleric or wizard or 1k dps fvs caster into EE Doj, Mod or Thunderholme raids shortman.

Now show us how fast you can complete the quest. Killing some weak ee mobs won't prove that. Even though it still takes you 5 sec to kill one by one.

And it takes you several minutes to kill this specific encouter ? My pure ranger can do it 10 times faster. Reroll please.

Nice try showing us how *overpowered* paladins are :rolleyes:

[Tinari]

Now show us how fast you can complete the quest. Killing some weak ee mobs won't prove that. Even though it still takes you 5 sec to kill one by one.

And it takes you several minutes to kill this specific encouter ? My pure ranger can do it 10 times faster. Reroll please.

Nice try showing us how *overpowered* paladins are :rolleyes:

I await your video with bated breath.

[IronClan]

What makes me feel stupid is crafting the wrong thing.

But nerfs rarely hit me hard, since i dont stay at cap for long on any life.

I see a pattern developing here, the people who are least concerned with nerfs are the ones with the least investment in crafted items and the least likely to play at cap...

"I don't care if they rip the deck off the back of this house, I'm just renting" to reuse someone elses terrible metaphor.

[Walking_Ride]

I await your video with bated breath.

Not gonna happen. Why should i ? You got a brain to figure that out on your own, right ?

[Tinari]

Not gonna happen. Why should i ? You got a brain to figure that out on your own, right ?

I am not going to do your work to convince me anything is wrong. That's not how polite discourse.

Actions > words, as they say.

[bartharok]

Not gonna happen. Why should i ? You got a brain to figure that out on your own, right ?

Youve been figured out, yes.

[IronClan]

Sure why not, it's Sunday. I play on potato and Bandicam doesn't really help so quality is low.

Yes, 3.5 - 4.5k is Bruntsmash - I type those numbers because everybody else is using it as a base here or ingame.
I know it's not ideal.

Props for putting your money where your mouth er typing is... I have to say judging from the time it takes to drop some of those mobs (which is not terrible or anything) that you are not hitting all the listed metrics while doing the claimed DPS. That said I think you have a solid Vanguard there and you can join any LFM I put up for what ever thats worth. You appear to be hitting higher numbers than my Vanguard in some areas due to choices we both made differently (I put a lot more into KotC for DPS) but I will stick with my assessment that the post that started this is exaggerated or at least "stars aligned" bruntsmash-smashing which you acknowledge.

Here's my problem, Vanguard is currently my favorite most invested Melee, right now it's a passable combination of survival CC and DPS, The Survival is IMO where it should be if one is giving up 3,000 to 4,000 Bruntsmash points. The CC is inferior to a Warchanters (25s cooldown less mobs effected) and well we already know that it scores ~4,000 less Bruntsmashes...

Does it need to suffer twice the MRR loss of a TWF melee? The armor MRR lost is doubled for a S&B
Does it need to suffer lost crit range AND multiplier to it's shield? The shield is already a bit of a AP heavy trap, considering things like "+10% bashing" are in reality about +1.2% increase in bashes.
Does it need to suffer loss of main hand DPS?

The answer is no, it's already giving up a very substantial amount of DPS to have the equivalent of Evasion and the occasional (now with nerf even less occasional) big shield crit. When objectively viewed the amount of AP's spent improving the shield is a big part of why the build does HALF the bruntsmashes of a TWF, it's a bit of a trap, it's not returning anywhere near the DPS of other builds and it's not giving anywhere near enough survival advantage to compensate for the loss.

In fact killing an EE mob twice as fast is survivability all it's own. Right now Vanguard is a flavor choice that's on the edge of being EE viable, and just kills mobs at what I subjectively consider an acceptable though somewhat slow rate. After this nerf it falls off the table. After this I would be unsurprised to see Vanguards declined from raids regularly with "we don't need a tank".

Literally a Evasion TWF (Rangers for example) gain the Elemental mitigation benefit of a Shield (a little less PRR) add 5% incorp, which is enough mitigation to compensate for not having the PRR of a shield, and DOUBLE THEIR DPS by not selecting a shield tree.

[Walking_Ride]

Props for putting your money where your mouth er typing is... I have to say judging from the time it takes to drop some of those mobs (which is not terrible or anything) that you are not hitting all the listed metrics while doing the claimed DPS. That said I think you have a solid Vanguard there and you can join any LFM I put up for what ever thats worth. You appear to be hitting higher numbers than my Vanguard in some areas due to choices we both made differently (I put a lot more into KotC for DPS) but I will stick with my assessment that the post that started this is exaggerated or at least "stars aligned" bruntsmash-smashing which you acknowledge.

Here's my problem, Vanguard is currently my favorite most invested Melee, right now it's a passable combination of survival CC and DPS, The Survival is IMO where it should be if one is giving up 3,000 to 4,000 Bruntsmash points. The CC is inferior to a Warchanters (25s cooldown less mobs effected) and well we already know that it scores ~4,000 less Bruntsmashes...

Does it need to suffer twice the MRR loss of a TWF melee? The armor MRR lost is doubled for a S&B
Does it need to suffer lost crit range AND multiplier to it's shield? The shield is already a bit of a AP heavy trap, considering things like "+10% bashing" are in reality about +1.2% increase in bashes.
Does it need to suffer loss of main hand DPS?

The answer is no, it's already giving up a very substantial amount of DPS to have the equivalent of Evasion and the occasional (now with nerf even less occasional) big shield crit. When objectively viewed the amount of AP's spent improving the shield is a big part of why the build does HALF the bruntsmashes of a TWF, it's a bit of a trap, it's not returning anywhere near the DPS of other builds and it's not giving anywhere near the survival advantage.

Literally a Evasion TWF (Rangers for example) gain the Elemental mitigation benefit of a Shield (a little less PRR) add 5% incorp, and DOUBLE THEIR DPS by not selecting a shield tree.

These nerfs are poorly designed and disproportionately hurt builds that are only just right IMO.

People that claim defense and self healing > dps have no clue at all.

This is 2015. There are class enhancements that provide prr/mrr and even evasion as a package. Almost every class does offer that.
There are epic destinies that provide huge amounts of mrr/prr. Especially prr.

In regards to self healing, the easiest thing everyone gets is self healing through epic destinies or class based spells.


Dps is more important because there are only a few sources that will help you do more dps.

Paladins that loose out on +1 crit range and +1 crit multiplier to their off hand weapon have no other way to replace 30% of the dps loss than tr into a ranger.

This is not how varg described build diversity. I am sick of another wow clone mechanic that allows only x for y while the other build (paladin) should suck balls.



Now imagine a twf paladin in toee on ee without evasion, little mrr and 30% less dps.You would probably end up dead before killing a single encouter.

Especially after they buffed ee mobs so much. Which translates to the dead of paladin class, yet again.

[Darkmits]

Paladins that loose out on +1 crit range and +1 crit multiplier to their off hand weapon have no other way to replace 30% of the dps loss than tr into a ranger.+1 crit range and +1 crit multiplier on your offhand constitutes 30% of your total dps? Is your offhand profile something like 2-20/x2, converting it to 3-20/x1 with the changes?

[Darkmits]

I am trolling because you are overexaggerating the effect. Maybe your offhand crits are 26% lower than before, but your total dps is nowhere near that. Math cannot support it. Either you are not testing under the same circumstances, or you are pulling numbers out of thin air.

And at the same time, being such a good number cruncher that you present us to be, compare your current build's numbers to what your FUTURE build will be, not the same identical one.

[Walking_Ride]

I am trolling because you are overexaggerating the effect. Maybe your offhand crits are 26% lower than before, but your total dps is nowhere near that. Math cannot support it. Either you are not testing under the same circumstances, or you are pulling numbers out of thin air.

And at the same time, being such a good number cruncher that you present us to be, compare your current build's numbers to what your FUTURE build will be, not the same identical one.

Doesn't matter if my offhand dps is 26% lower.

That is the same as 26% overall lower dps compared to other builds except rangers that are even more ahead in numbers.

Just because you can't pull off the math behind the picture, doesn't mean i am wrong.


God, i hate that kind of people who talk nonsense like they do everyday.

[Darkmits]

Actually, I thought about it. You are right, walkin_Ride. Your numbers are correct. I highly recommend that you cancel your account right now and not post a single thing any more on the forums. Also change your password to entirely random keypresses so that you cannot recover it. And then uninstall.

[walkin_dude]

Am I the only person on these forums who understands the word "viable"?

Nope.

[Strider1963]

Yes.

Did I have fun? Like a lot of things that is a nuanced answer and not a black and white... the first few DoJ's were fun... does that mean the last 14 or so get a free pass and I don't get to complain? The first few MoD's were, some where worse than others... the last few were boring and if not for the GOAL of attaining cool loot I wouldn't have done them. SOme were fun because friends joined and we chatted and joked our way through despite the content, and some where a bigger chore because someone unlikable joined and proceeded to be his D-bag self over voice, hit on every female and talk about himself incessently... I'll never get those minutes back.

The answer is SOME of it was fun, and some was more like work. This is a natural byproduct of Turbine NEEDING players to replay content over and over... the other natural byproduct of this is that players call these repetitive tasks CHORES and FARMING and GRINDING. So as you all can surely see "fun" or "not fun" is a little simplistic to use as your justification for why Turbine doesn't need to respect the time and energy and emotional investment it's players put in.

While some of you whistling past the grave yard may talk a good game about not letting the door hit us on the way out, and Turbine not needing us, we all know that's just wide eyed bluster and fear as the game empties out more and more every day...

Agree, I also have fun playing the game, but not grinding 40 or more past lives to become uber (and then complain the games too easy).. I don't play enough each day to accomplish this, nor do I desire to. Its too much of a grind to do so, and the game should have never been set up this way, period. This grind is probably one of the main reasons (along with bugs), attracting and retaing new players isn't working. It probably takes me at least 2 months or more, to get a toon from level 1 to 28. Then after planning said character, and getting up to level 15 or so, out comes the nerf bat and makes the build much less useful.. (E>G> I have a ranger in progress and theyre taking away 6 mp from twf feats, and nerfing multishot (which has been the way it is forever). Are they taking away the repeater shot from artys (who are much more powerful ranged, have spells, a rune arm and a metal doggie). Give me a break. This game cant afford to keep alienating players and losing em, that's all I can say. Somebody better wake up. Admittedly, these nerfs probably wont affect the ubers much, but I know for a fact, a lot of ppl I play with aren't uber and are not happy at all with most of the proposed nerfs.
s

[HAL]

My advice to anyone playing an MMO:

1. Actually read the EULA that you agreed to (where it clearly states that nothing in the game, even if purchased by you, belongs to you and that anything in the game can be changed at any time with no notice).

2. Don't do things in the game based ONLY on the idea of "future fun". I.e. don't grind if you don't like it because whatever you're grinding for can go away leaving only the grind (see#1).

These 2 things will immensely help your enjoyment of the game through whatever the developers choose to do with it.

[walkin_dude]

Doesn't matter if my offhand dps is 26% lower.

That is the same as 26% overall lower dps compared to other builds except rangers that are even more ahead in numbers.

Just because you can't pull off the math behind the picture, doesn't mean i am wrong.


God, i hate that kind of people who talk nonsense like they do everyday.

... Okay, let's assume a toon is twf and that both hands are performing equally. The DPS of the main hand and the off-hand are the same. Let's further stipulate, for the sake of simplicity, that both hands are using the same weapon with the same crit profile and the same procs. So let's say that both can be represented by a value of 100%. Total DPS for this toon, then, is 200% DPS. If the numeric value of 100% DPS is 2500, then the total DPS is 5000. So far, so good.

Now, let's say that the off-hand DPS is somehow nerfed by 26%. The new value of offhand DPS is 74%, and the total amount of DPS becomes 174%. We convert this into a numeric value and get a new total DPS amount of 4350.

If what you said is true, then reducing off-hand DPS by 26% would be a total DPS reduction of 26%. This just isn't true, because if you reduce 5000 by 26% you would get a result of 3700, which is considerably different from what I got in the above paragraph.

Now, this is an extremely simplified example, because we all know that in reality the main hand does more DPS than the off-hand, especially for non-temptests who can only get up to 80% off-hand attack rate. But it should be good enough to illustrate one of the reasons why your reaction here is unnecessarily intense.

[Walking_Ride]

My advice to anyone playing an MMO:

1. Actually read the EULA that you agreed to (where it clearly states that nothing in the game, even if purchased by you, belongs to you and that anything in the game can be changed at any time with no notice).

2. Don't do things in the game based ONLY on the idea of "future fun". I.e. don't grind if you don't like it because whatever you're grinding for can go away leaving only the grind (see#1).

These 2 things will immensely help your enjoyment of the game through whatever the developers choose to do with it.

Then give back my time, and i will go play another game. Wasting many years on this **** for this ? No, thank you.

[Lonnbeimnech]

So can't all the 15/5 pallys become 14ranger 6 pally?

It's basically the same thing except you get manyshot, fom and improved evasion (yeah you have to change armors for the end fight of DoJ) and lose about 10 hp and deathward, which comes in a pot.

[legendkilleroll]

And every single one of them does benefit from their appropriate crit boost enhancements to off hand weapons. Apparently, only paladins are not allowed to be twf.

How does a swashbucker bard have anything to do with threat range and multiplier for off hand?

[walkin_dude]

How does a swashbucker bard have anything to do with threat range and multiplier for off hand?

Or a great crossbow rogue, for that matter?

edit: or a quaterstaff rogue? or a great axe barbarian?

[bartharok]

Or a great crossbow rogue, for that matter?

edit: or a quaterstaff rogue? or a great axe barbarian?

They are not twf paladins, so he doesnt care.

[Walking_Ride]

So can't all the 15/5 pallys become 14ranger 6 pally?

It's basically the same thing except you get manyshot, fom and improved evasion (yeah you have to change armors for the end fight of DoJ) and lose about 10 hp and deathward, which comes in a pot.

12 Ranger 3 paladin and the other 5 i dunno. So paladin is becoming a splash class again.

This is hilarious and basically defeats the purpose of the paladin pass. Good job there severlin....NOT

[bartharok]

12 Ranger 3 paladin and the other 5 i dunno. So paladin is becoming a splash class again.

This is hilarious and basically defeats the purpose of the paladin pass. Good job there severlin....NOT

Only for you.

[Deadlock]

Doesn't matter if my offhand dps is 26% lower.

That is the same as 26% overall lower dps compared to other builds except rangers that are even more ahead in numbers.

Just because you can't pull off the math behind the picture, doesn't mean i am wrong.


God, i hate that kind of people who talk nonsense like they do everyday.


Help me pull off the math here.

Assuming a base line of 100 damage on your main hand and offhand (and ignoring for now double-strike chances on either, or crit proc chances to keep the numbers simple).

Using various factors, this would put your DPS to be:


Main Off Off hand % and description DPS
100 100 20.00% Default 120
100 100 40.00% TWF 140
100 100 50.00% TWF + Tempest 150
100 100 60.00% ITWF 160
100 100 70.00% ITWF + Tempest 170
100 100 80.00% GTWF 180
100 100 90.00% GTWF + Tempest 190
100 100 100.00% GTWF + Tempest + Whirlwind 200


Seems reasonable?

So if I now reduce your Off-hand DPS by 26% and look at those numbers again you get


Main Off Off hand % and description DPS % DIFF
100 74 20.00% Default 114.8 95.67%
100 74 40.00% TWF 129.6 92.57%
100 74 50.00% TWF + Tempest 137 91.33%
100 74 60.00% ITWF 144.4 90.25%
100 74 70.00% ITWF + Tempest 151.8 89.29%
100 74 80.00% GTWF 159.2 88.44%
100 74 90.00% GTWF + Tempest 166.6 87.68%
100 74 100.00% GTWF + Tempest + Whirlwind 174 87.00%


So with 100% offhand your 26% DPS reduction isn't an overall 26% DPS reduction, it's a 13% DPS reduction. That's if you have 18 Ranger levels ofc, but I think you've been talking about Paladin, right?

I'm not saying that's trivial or trying to say that you should be happy about it, but if we're going to lambast people for poor math then I think it's important to get the numbers right.

By my numbers, a 26% reduction in offhand DPS isn't the same as a 26% overall DPS reduction.

[Lonnbeimnech]

12 Ranger 3 paladin and the other 5 i dunno. So paladin is becoming a splash class again.

This is hilarious and basically defeats the purpose of the paladin pass. Good job there severlin....NOT

Going deeper into pally would keep some of the self healing benefits, loh being partially based on pally level, so it doesn't work as a panic button with 2 or 3 pally levels.
+ unyielding sentinel at 6

and going 14 ranger would give you cure serious.

I guess if you were bladeforged it wouldn't matter, but for human I think 14/6 is pretty good.

[Requiro]

I bought a chocolate. After I eat it, I feel like it was a waste of my time and my money. Now I demand compensation. If no I will never buy any chocolate in this shop. :rolleyes:

I love this kind of post :D

[bartharok]

I bought a chocolate. After I eat it, I feel like it was a waste of my time and my money. Now I demand compensation. If no I will never buy any chocolate in this shop. :rolleyes:

I love this kind of post :D

I want mo ey for getting a tummyache from overeating as well.

[Chai]

Dude. It doesn't matter if your main hand or off hand was reduced by 26% dps. It is still a loss of 26 % dps. Is that so hard for your little mind to comprehend ?

Go run the tests on lammania and give feedback on it. Wait, what ? You didn't run the tests and give your opinion based on your preference ? This is not how it works.

If the main lost nothing and offhand loses 26% that's not a total loss of 26%.

Ive run the tests, frequently each time their proposed changes are modified or someone tries to say they are seeing a significantly different result.

Each test does not take 26% more time either.

[bartharok]

Help me pull off the math here.

Assuming a base line of 100 damage on your main hand and offhand (and ignoring for now double-strike chances on either, or crit proc chances to keep the numbers simple).

Using various factors, this would put your DPS to be:


Main Off Off hand % and description DPS
100 100 20.00% Default 120
100 100 40.00% TWF 140
100 100 50.00% TWF + Tempest 150
100 100 60.00% ITWF 160
100 100 70.00% ITWF + Tempest 170
100 100 80.00% GTWF 180
100 100 90.00% GTWF + Tempest 190
100 100 100.00% GTWF + Tempest + Whirlwind 200


Seems reasonable?

So if I now reduce your Off-hand DPS by 26% and look at those numbers again you get


Main Off Off hand % and description DPS % DIFF
100 74 20.00% Default 114.8 95.67%
100 74 40.00% TWF 129.6 92.57%
100 74 50.00% TWF + Tempest 137 91.33%
100 74 60.00% ITWF 144.4 90.25%
100 74 70.00% ITWF + Tempest 151.8 89.29%
100 74 80.00% GTWF 159.2 88.44%
100 74 90.00% GTWF + Tempest 166.6 87.68%
100 74 100.00% GTWF + Tempest + Whirlwind 174 87.00%


So with 100% offhand your 26% DPS reduction isn't an overall 26% DPS reduction, it's a 13% DPS reduction. That's if you have 18 Ranger levels ofc, but I think you've been talking about Paladin, right?

I'm not saying that's trivial or trying to say that you should be happy about it, but if we're going to lambast people for poor math then I think it's important to get the numbers right.

By my numbers, a 26% reduction in offhand DPS isn't the same as a 26% overall DPS reduction.

Actually, you should count it as 109 base for ranger, and 124,5 base for paladin, since thats counting the minimum for getting capstones in the respective classes.

[Chai]

I'm not 100% positive of this, but I think in most games the respecs are cheap/free because in most MMOs, a respec is pretty much cheap/meaningless. I'm not sure how many different MMOs we're thinking of, but just thinking of WoW (Due to it's famous nature) if things change, you drop a pittance and you can respec, but your choices and the real impact of anything you do is so droll and meaningless that why does it matter?

I think people get upset in DDO because their choices are actually important. That's something DDO has that most games don't and I think that's great. I've never had a change happen in DDO since I started playing that has ever upset me. Mostly because I never invest in top-tier "builds" and I never deal with crafting... :3 (Seriously, I don't even have a single Greensteel item if that means anything).

I played WOW for a few years. The respecs aren't meaningless at all. They once did a nerf on paladin healers which increased the cooldown .2s on their small heal they spam for very little mana, and that was the difference between them being viable main tank healers in raids, to not being wanted any more for that role. Respec in that case was necessary to bring the class back up to par for raid healing.

[cdbd3rd]

I say trollcasm, ....

I totally saw that as "Trollgasm" - which would've sent this down an slightly different road.

[bartharok]

I totally saw that as "Trollgasm" - which would've sent this down an slightly different road.

Ecstatic trolling? Sounds nice.

[FranOhmsford]

I must be really masochistic to want to respond to him.

Defense can be acquired everywhere? Please point some very nice defenses that I can get, because right now I am lucky if I survive 10 seconds in EE when solo.

I do love when people say how easy defense is to get while also stating how easy offense is to get - These people have all the top gear and Augments galore to fill in every slot!

Chances are they also have multiple past lives and epic past lives as well as all destinies maxed while being in main destiny for their build and having full twists.


Crit threat range and multiplier are rare? And they are the only sources of damage? Nothing else gives damage?

It's the amount of dmg that Crit threat range gives comparatively to other dmg boosts and the fact that it effectively multiplies everything else too that's the problem.

Crit Range {and to a lesser extent multiplier} is a must have.


You dislike the fact that you cannot solo packs of enemies that cannot be AoE'd down in a lvl32 Epic Elite quest? You consider that soloing the hardest content in the game should be the de facto design of the game?

Erm? This almost seems like the complete opposite of your previous statements in this post?

And yes - It is something that people seem to be forgetting at the moment that we cap at Lvl 28 but Quests cap at Lvl 32!
That's right - At End-Game we're quite significantly under-level compared to Elite Quests!

The problem is that EDs make Lvl 20s capable of completing those same Lvl 32 Elite Quests solo while Lvl 28s without maxed EDs don't stand a chance!

And the Devs keep compounding this issue with their insistence on making all Epics basically the same level of difficulty - EN Devil's Details or Ghosts of Perdition are barely harder than EN Snitch or VoN 3!
EE is similar!

So we're stuck with mainly running ENs while basically piking as many EE Saga and Favour Quests as possible until we max out our Destinies...And even then there's literally no point in ever running EH! {EN for XP, EE for Favour, Renown}.

I have a character parked at Lvl 28 doing Heart Seed runs to stack up enough so that other alts can E-TR - What difficulty am I running? EN of course!


And you also seem to dislike that someone else MAY be able to solo it, without checking if they will also be hit by the nerfbat in one way or another? I also can't solo EE on my 20 bard / 8 epic who is a pure Spellsinger. No, I don't want to splash or change enhancements. I want THIS build that I play. Just like you. Nothing else.

The other day I put up an LFM for EE-BB Spies 20-25 on my Lvl 25 at the time Warlock.
It took me about half an hour to get 5 players incl. one Splash trapper {who couldn't find the traps}.
We wiped at the Grease trap {Nothing to do with the trap itself - just the sheer amount of dmg thrown at us by the mobs on that ledge} and I said to reset and go again but EVERYONE LEFT!
I ended up soloing Heroic Elite for the Favour and to avoid the possibility of losing streak then took 26.

I wouldn't mind not being able to Solo if Groups were easier to find but they're not easy to find!

I can't afford to buy Tomes or Raid Bypasses to possibly earn tomes from a couple thousand Raid runs so I NEED that 5k Favour! Which discounting EE Raids and Titan requires literally every Quest in the game on Elite!
Me....I hate the Cannith Challenges with a Passion so I also have to get most of those Raids done on some difficulty, many on Elite!

So far I've earned that 5k Favour once on one character. It took 2 full E-TRs to do! To get what was basically +2 to one stat! {I already had at least +3 on all and +4 on some}.

I really do think the +5 tome should be moved to 4k {4.5 would do} Favour for the moment - At least until the end of next year when 5k will be more viable for the majority of players.
Here's a reason for the Devs to do that:
The more players with +5 tomes = more players willing to buy +5-6 and +6-7 Upgrades!

[MaeveTuohy]

I bought a chocolate. After I eat it, I feel like it was a waste of my time and my money. Now I demand compensation. If no I will never buy any chocolate in this shop. :rolleyes:

I love this kind of post :D

You buy a chocolate advertised as almond centre. When you get it home and eat it, the company changed it to strawberry.

You return and point this out. The chocolatier, knowing that you are the customer and your satisfaction is their goal, gives you one that really is almond, then thanks you for your ongoing patronage.

[RTN]

Things change and get nerfed. It sucks, but life goes on. My main character, about all I play these days, is going to feel the nerf bat. I don't play a ton, which means fixing him will be very hard. I'll survive. These games always do this. It's happened to be before and it will happen again.

I'd love 30 phogs since I doubt I'll ever get that run by myself, but like with the CitW raider boxes, it will also kill that raid most likely. No one seems to run it much these days, so maybe that's OK. On the other hand, if lots of people who need to be on the very cutting edge of DPS suddenly revise their toons, maybe it will start getting run again. I'd love that. If it doesn't happen, I'll wi****lly think about that TF tier 3 weapon I wish I had, then hope I can grind out epic greensteel before everyone with a gazillion raid timer resets finishes their gear in a couple weeks. Such is life.

(what did w i s t f u l ly trigger in the filter?!)

[bartharok]

You buy a chocolate advertised as almond centre. When you get it home and eat it, the company changed it to strawberry.

You return and point this out. The chocolatier, knowing that you are the customer and your satisfaction is their goal, gives you one that really is almond, then thanks you for your ongoing patronage.

You buy a chocolate with almond centre. You eat it, then buy more. After a while the factory changes the centre to strawberry, and tells everybody who is interested. Then you start demanding to get repaid for the almond centres you bought, claiming you have been cheated, since they will change the fill to strawberry.

Thats closer.

[Lonnbeimnech]

More like.

You go to a restaurant and order the soup of the day, it's a lobster bisque, and it's fantastic. You go back there the next day and order the soup of the day again, but this time is cream of broccoli. You don't order it, threaten to never return, and demand a refund for the soup you ordered yesterday while cursing, screaming and generally insulting the chef, waitstaff and even the bussers. They ask you to leave, and you end up getting cream of broccoli elsewhere.

[Chai]

More like.

You order the lobster bisque, pay for it, then while waiting several loud patrons announce they would rather have the soup of the day be cream of broccoli, and filibuster anyone who disagrees with quantity based disruption and personal attacks until they get what they want. Now your choices are to eat something you didn't order but already paid for, or go somewhere else where they will actually give you what you ordered. Now that they have accomplished changing your order against your approval, the other patrons look at you awaiting your decision with schadenfreude-esque satisfaction.

[Vellrad]

More like, you rent a house with 3 rooms for 3 years, and after a year ownes comes and places lots of junk in one of rooms and locks the door because he needs a place to store it.
When you complain, you're told by neighboors to shut up, because they all have 2 room apartmens anyway, so should you, and owner says, don't like it, GTFO.

[IronClan]

In the end all the "adapt" and "MMO's change" and "this doesn't bother me because I have minimal to no investment, so screw you lel!" posts matter little enough.

People will leave when their play time is disrespected and their characters made to feel less powerful. It's just a much a fact of life as "MMO's change" but it's a MORE IMPORTANT fact of life.

This game is bleeding out these nerfs will just quicken that because they are so poorly designed and will have a far bigger negative impact on regular average every day builds than they effect the FOTM type players.

Someone critting for 35,000 in tree form is laughing at these changes, someone spinning 5 to 7 attacks per second in Wolf or Shuricannon is munching popcorn right now enjoying the show. Someone TWF in Ranger with TF weapons shrugs these nerfs off, crits weren't the only focus of his max attacks per second, max mortal fear procs, max affix damage build.

[IronClan]

I'd love 30 phogs since I doubt I'll ever get that run by myself, but like with the CitW raider boxes, it will also kill that raid most likely. No one seems to run it much these days, so maybe that's OK. On the other hand, if lots of people who need to be on the very cutting edge of DPS suddenly revise their toons, maybe it will start getting run again. I'd love that. If it doesn't happen, I'll wi****lly think about that TF tier 3 weapon I wish I had, then hope I can grind out epic greensteel before everyone with a gazillion raid timer resets finishes their gear in a couple weeks. Such is life.

(what did w i s t f u l ly trigger in the filter?!)

But that's exactly where they should be directing their attention, before this whole stupid mess of a balance pass started I lobbied for them to just focus on fixing the REAL problems with the game: short lived content, lack of end game to justify all the TR'ing and ETR's, lack of long term goals in the game to shoot for.

Now some of that they addressed albeit generically (mythics for long term goals) but in the mean time this EN 20 raids in a short time behavior blossomed due to duping of timers and anniversary cards being easy to cheese. And this along with a paltry end game has literally lead to raids being used up and thrown away in a couple weeks. Instead of addressing this sort of stuff they are still tinkering with character balance, and doing a right crappy job of it.

To me the whole idea of a balance pass was rearranging deck chairs on the titanic... except that this titanic could have been limped along on auxiliary power for a while instead of sinking.

In the end this wildly oscillating character power just shed more players faster and this nerf is going to send even more packing.

[walkin_dude]

(what did w i s t f u l ly trigger in the filter?!)

Emphasis mine...

[MaeveTuohy]

You buy a chocolate with almond centre. You eat it, then buy more. After a while the factory changes the centre to strawberry, and tells everybody who is interested. Then you start demanding to get repaid for the almond centres you bought, claiming you have been cheated, since they will change the fill to strawberry.

Thats closer.

It isn't closer because the chocolate has to be the same one you purchased, not an ongoing series of chocolates that you keep purchasing anew. One does not work hard for the ingredients to an item and then keep investing and investing again once the item is made. You purchase the chocolate and it changes during your use/enjoyment of the original.

Clearly, the choice of an easily consumable product (a chocolate) by the original respondent was a poor one, because it does not have the key characteristic of persistence.

You make an investment of time and money on a product. Part way through your enjoyment of that product, the company changes it to one you no longer enjoy or want. You are now a customer who is not happy with the product. But you are the customer; While it is never a matter of customer right or customer wrong, it's always matter of customer satisfied and willing to remain your customer, or customer going elsewhere.

I am not personally a dissatisfied customer, but I have total sympathy for those whose experience of the product they purchased has greatly changed and wish to be compensated. Especially when most of the things being requested are essentially free.

[slarden]

I like lobster bisque. I like chocolate.

I would like an LR +20 and thunderforged exchange system even more so if I feel my build no longer stacks up I can simply respec and retool. This should be a no-brainer for the devs really.

[bartharok]

It isn't closer because the chocolate has to be the same one you purchased, not an ongoing series of chocolates that you keep purchasing anew. One does not work hard for the ingredients to an item and then keep investing and investing again once the item is made. You purchase the chocolate and it changes during your use/enjoyment of the original.

Clearly, the choice of an easily consumable product (a chocolate) by the original respondent was a poor one, because it does not have the key characteristic of persistence.

You make an investment of time and money on a product. Part way through your enjoyment of that product, the company changes it to one you no longer enjoy or want. You are now a customer who is not happy with the product. But you are the customer; While it is never a matter of customer right or customer wrong, it's always matter of customer satisfied and willing to remain your customer, or customer going elsewhere.

I am not personally a dissatisfied customer, but I have total sympathy for those whose experience of the product they purchased has greatly changed and wish to be compensated. Especially when most of the things being requested are essentially free.

Methinks i am done with this thread.

Discussing anything with people who WANT things to be bad is not worth it after a while.

[Pnumbra]

I bought a chocolate. After I eat it, I feel like it was a waste of my time and my money. Now I demand compensation. If no I will never buy any chocolate in this shop. :rolleyes:

I love this kind of post :D

This post is stupid.

If you buy a chocolate bar and eat it, you get what you paid for. Some stranger cannot intercede and alter your chocolate bar before you eat it, thus reducing your enjoyment of the type of chocolate bar you purchased. :rolleyes:

Just because something is unethical but legal doesn't' make it ok. It just makes it legal and unethical.

Everyone has their take on these changes, and mine is with the ludicrous changes to warlock. What is OP is the heroic warlock, not the epic warlock. The fix for this is quite simple. For example;

Eldritch Aura: Stance: While this is active, your Eldritch Blast changes into an aura that deals the same damage as your Eldritch Blast to all foes in range every 5 seconds, and scales with 150% spell power. You cannot fire Eldritch Blasts while in this stance, but may attack normally with weapons and cast spells. Stance cool down: 8 seconds.

Could be changed to;

Eldritch Aura: Stance: While this is active, your Eldritch Blast changes into an aura that deals the same damage as your Eldritch Blast to all foes in range every 5 seconds, and scales with spell power. If you are level 20+ Eldritch Aura scales with 150% spell power. You cannot fire Eldritch Blasts while in this stance, but may attack normally with weapons and cast spells. Stance cool down: 8 seconds.

How difficult is that to do? Copy same format to other powers/SLAs and you fix the OP heroic issues without screwing up the epic warlock. This same approach should have been applied to the previous nerf.

I also noticed that while Devs are planning grand sweeping changes to other character templates, nothing is being done to the ridiculous HP/immune ladened, PRR reducing mobs we currently fight. The one thing I detest in all quest is the end boss fight. Now players will have to engage these unchanged monsters with diminished capacity. Really?


And how will these sweeping changes play into your so-called "Reaper" mode?

[IronClan]

And how will these sweeping changes play into your so-called "Reaper" mode?

Good question and one that should be answered in Sev's initial post but isn't... I expect these nerfs are in preference to making a 5th setting to spread the players out further in. But I am just guessing based on what would be sensible, these nerfs don't suggest that sensible is a reasonable thing to expect from them.

[Qhualor]

Good question and one that should be answered in Sev's initial post but isn't... I expect these nerfs are in preference to making a 5th setting to spread the players out further in. But I am just guessing based on what would be sensible, these nerfs don't suggest that sensible is a reasonable thing to expect from them.

reaper hasn't officially been confirmed to happen. after a dev said they were thinking about it, that's when multiple reaper difficulty suggestions started popping up and its spread to be a confirmation that it is definitely happening. it makes no sense to have an additional difficulty setting until at least all of the classes have had their pass.

[HAL]

In the end all the "adapt" and "MMO's change" and "this doesn't bother me because I have minimal to no investment, so screw you lel!" posts matter little enough.

People will leave when their play time is disrespected and their characters made to feel less powerful.

Their play time is disrespected? Wow.

Games change over time. People put a lot of effort into Greensteel and then it wasn't the best gear in the game anymore. People put a lot of effort into Shard / Seal / Scroll gear and then the items that were worth getting weren't that great anymore. Anyone who is going to threaten to quit because they spent a bunch of time pursuing something and then that thing changed shouldn't be playing MMOs in the first place because IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

[Hephaistor]

Now will you shut up, please ?
...
You are $%&§ that just help destroy the game even further.




Welcome back Devilyouknow/Pescha/Pesch1991/noideawhatelse. May I give you a good advice: If you would be a bit less rude to the other forum members (regardless if you agree with them or not) you may enjoy this account a bit longer than those before. Thus said, I don't think you are allowed to just create a new account and keep posting like that. I won't report you personally, but maybe others will if you stick to that tone.

[Requiro]

You buy a chocolate with almond centre. You eat it, then buy more. After a while the factory changes the centre to strawberry, and tells everybody who is interested. Then you start demanding to get repaid for the almond centres you bought, claiming you have been cheated, since they will change the fill to strawberry.

Thats closer.

:) Yes, it's closer

BTW: I can't believe that someone want rage quit because of game balancing, but some time ago the same person sit in the Players Council...
Just unbelievable - Who select these people? :eek:

The easiest conclusion should be, that Player Council in 2014 forced (at least try) some OP changes for their play style, without any concerns about game balance. And now Devs try repair this.
Hmm... Sound like conspiracy theory :rolleyes:

[bartharok]

This post is stupid.

If you buy a chocolate bar and eat it, you get what you paid for. Some stranger cannot intercede and alter your chocolate bar before you eat it, thus reducing your enjoyment of the type of chocolate bar you purchased. :rolleyes:



Actually, he has been eating the chocolate bars for quite some time, since he has been playing for quite some time.

Now the flavor has changed, and he wants to get the last flavor back. But unfortunately that bar has been eaten (or to be more accurate, is soon to run out)

[IronClan]

:) Yes, it's closer

BTW: I can't believe that someone want rage quit because of game balancing, but some time ago the same person sit in the Players Council...
Just unbelievable - Who select these people? :eek:

The easiest conclusion should be, that Player Council in 2014 forced (at least try) some OP changes for their play style, without any concerns about game balance. And now Devs try repair this.
Hmm... Sound like conspiracy theory :rolleyes:

Ragequit? I'm canceling VIP, stopping monetary support of the game, doing the only thing a customer can do to protest poor customer service. I may need to use that VIP money to respec characters, or I may use it to check into Tera.

Holy Sword and KotC tree were all Sev, and are 90-95% verbatim how he posted them. In fact all the heavy handed stuff was as far as I can tell (the Barbarian dump truck load of heal amp and HP's for example, the 7d6 Light damage that becomes ~35d6 on a TWF blitzer for example). I feel like I had a lot to do with Bard, and some influences on Vanguard and the harper tree along with every other PC member. I thought they were good changes overall I still think they are good, I didn't like the light damage in the cores at all, I wanted them to give Paladins more opportunity to improve smites instead of Light damage. That Light damage is currently the reason why TWF paladin is getting nerfed with HS not applying to the off hand. To compensate for the egregious Light damage that is multiplied 1.8 times by TWF and scaled by MP (7d6 times 1.8 becomes something like 35d6 per main+off hand hit with a ~140 MP blitz stack going).

We were judging by their stated "plan" and also not having any ability to test it was all "on paper" and theorycrafting. Your assertions are wrong, and based on ignorance of what went on motivated clearly by your desire to insult me clumsily. Your comments nothing new, they are typical of the kind of accusation often expressed towards PC members. Expecting players on the PC (who they want to be diverse and they hand picked us specifically to achieve that) to live up to some sort of standard of "likes only things I like, dislikes everything I dislike" is just about the most simplistic and absurd though common expectation a PC member will see as a result of having been on it. It's tiresome and more than a little alarming just how many people think it's okay to write something like that and post it in public. Do you really expect everyone to see the game as you do? Value what you Value? Seriously?