New 10k Stars is too powerful

[jakeelala]

for a 20 Monk it's 100% Doubleshot (wrapping if the latest dev posts are to be believed) and Wisdom score to Ranged Power. If you get your wisdom to 38+, and your Monk level over 12-14, this ability is better than the Epic Moment in Divine Crusader.

At 20 Monk with 42+ Wisdom, it far exceeds it, due to how often it's up (50% of the time). Really Devs? One ability is going to grant that much power but only to a pure class?

Better idea:

10k stars grants 2*Wisdom Score in Doubleshot (end game would be 60-100'ish) and 3*Monk level in Ranged Power (3-60 Ranged Power depending on split).

My consideration is regarding it's potential use by throwing builds with Shuriken. Not all thrower builds should require 20 Monk levels to be competitive. I don't have the mental wherewithal to gameplan it in every possible ranged build. My feeling however is that one way or the other, no Ranged build will go without it.

Moreover, I am frustrated that ALL of the discussion of 10k stars has revolved around it's utility to Archery, when it is in fact a SHURIKEN specific ability that also allows bows with an extra feat.

Can we please have some dev comments on how they feel 10k changes will affect throwing characters and builds? Do a quick forum survey, there are as many throwers now as there are archery characters, but we're not being represented or acknowledged.

#ThrowerBuildsMatter

[blerkington]

Hi,

Come on now, the new version of this ability ticks all the important boxes

* Reduces build diversity by making other choices more suboptimal in comparison

* 'Fixes' one tiny part of a class which is built around another combat style but isn't doing well at that

* Potentially makes a heroic level feat equivalent in power to some epic moments

No doubt it was tested more thoroughly (testing conditions and results to come later) than you can even imagine, and the vast majority of the community agreed with the change in a super secret poll. Did you not get your questionnaire?

And I'll raise you a new hashtag #Imstill****edaboutmanyshotchanges

Thanks.

[McFlay]

Don't worry about it, they're nerfing twf, all will be right now.

[J-mann]

I hate to disagree, but If they had merely removed the doubleshot penatly from 10k stars it would be superior to the currently proposed change, and 10k is not super duper op currently, even if you considered the removal of dshot penalty. One thing I will say is that I hate the fact that it is tied to monk levels, please either character levels or entirely wisdom based.....

[legendkilleroll]

I dont get how every class pass you make it about throwers

Ive only played a thrower once and it seemed very powerful, you seem to have played lots of different versions, talk about how easy it is and how you "dominate" yet you continuously want to be buffed even more, every revamped tree you have wanted even more power and when it comes to monk im sure throwers will get alot more. yes i know it be nice if monk wasnt required but i dont really see any non shuriken

Pretty clear that you just dont want to see the guy you have a problem with build getter something better than yours.

[jakeelala]

Hi,

Come on now, the new version of this ability ticks all the important boxes

* Reduces build diversity by making other choices more suboptimal in comparison

* 'Fixes' one tiny part of a class which is built around another combat style but isn't doing well at that

* Potentially makes a heroic level feat equivalent in power to some epic moments

No doubt it was tested more thoroughly (testing conditions and results to come later) than you can even imagine, and the vast majority of the community agreed with the change in a super secret poll. Did you not get your questionnaire?

And I'll raise you a new hashtag #Imstill****edaboutmanyshotchanges

Thanks.

I understand frustration with Manyshot changes, though stopped playing Bow characters a few years ago so I'm less upset. The burst syngery with FoTW was a fun and unique build style that I really liked.

I will say this though, have you been able to test on Lama how it will work now? With the very much increased RoF (from so much more doubleshot) with the changes, you should be able to regen Adrenalines quite a bit faster in between Manyshots. This would allow you to utilize it more frequently, though likely with around 2.4 arrows per shot, instead of the guaranteed 4. With the Ranged Power that's being added it's still a nerf, but potentially not quite as bad as everyone is making out.

Yes you will not get to have 4 arrows do 12-15k damage all at once anymore, but you also won't be a complete gimp in between those volleys. That was ultimately why I quit playing Monkchers, the intermittency was frustrating. I went to the other end of the spectrum with Throwers, which have lower burst/spike DPS but equal or higher damage over time. I do understand not everyone likes that play style, and I sympathize with people who's builds are being changed and nerfed and altered.

[blerkington]

I understand frustration with Manyshot changes, though stopped playing Bow characters a few years ago so I'm less upset. The burst syngery with FoTW was a fun and unique build style that I really liked. ...

Hi,

Thanks for the sympathy. My main doesn't run in FoTW and he's not a full-time archer, but I played around with that ED for a while and see why people like it.

Since my main ideally only uses his bow for manyshot, the changes are quite harmful to him because although physical damage for the period seems similar, the loss of missiles means about a 40% reduction in the chance of getting mortal fear procs and other on-hit effects. That downgrades my manyshot considerably more than the weasel words one of the developers used to describe it, which were "slightly less effective".

I did see some maths which suggested a Fury based monkcher would also see a reduction in the number of missiles over the full two minute cycle of about 26%. It's less than what I'm facing, but probably even more serious for them with its implications for proc chances as well as charging ED abilities.

There is also suddenly talk of 'fixing' how adrenaline recharges from ranged attacks, which is pretty hilarious given that the damage output is far less OP by comparion to other builds now than it has ever been in the past. Talk about balancing with a sledgehammer.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack your thread into another rant about manyshot. I'm just quite ****ed off about this change, which could have been done other ways to achieve the stated design goals, and actually appears to be driven by other concerns which the community did not get a chance to discuss.

Good luck with your campaign to iron out some of the problems with your own preferred style of combat. I agree that it seems like it is being ignored, and I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone at Turbine thinks there's going to be even the remotest parity anymore between bows, throwers and crossbows.

Thanks.

[jakeelala]

Hi,

Thanks for the sympathy. My main doesn't run in FoTW and he's not a full-time archer, but I played around with that ED for a while and see why people like it.

Since my main ideally only uses his bow for manyshot, the changes are quite harmful to him because although physical damage for the period seems similar, the loss of missiles means about a 40% reduction in the chance of getting mortal fear procs and other on-hit effects. That downgrades my manyshot considerably more than the weasel words one of the developers used to describe it, which were "slightly less effective".

I did see some maths which suggested a Fury based monkcher would also see a reduction in the number of missiles over the full two minute cycle of about 26%. It's less than what I'm facing, but probably even more serious for them with its implications for proc chances as well as charging ED abilities.

There is also suddenly talk of 'fixing' how adrenaline recharges from ranged attacks, which is pretty hilarious given that the damage output is far less OP by comparion to other builds now than it has ever been in the past. Talk about balancing with a sledgehammer.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack your thread into another rant about manyshot. I'm just quite ****ed off about this change, which could have been done other ways to achieve the stated design goals, and actually appears to be driven by other concerns which the community did not get a chance to discuss.

Good luck with your campaign to iron out some of the problems with your own preferred style of combat. I agree that it seems like it is being ignored, and I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone at Turbine thinks there's going to be even the remotest parity anymore between bows, throwers and crossbows.

Thanks.

Yeah word. I know the math show less missiles over time, but what I don't know if shows is actual total damage. As with throwers, the number of missiles is one variable (both from extra proc chances * actual rate of fire). With a lower total number of missiles you will get less proc/on hit effects, but that can be rapidly made up for by the other multiple in the DPS equation: Physical damage. If the Ranged power during Manyshot is raised enough, it will outpace the lost on hit and %proc effects you lose. And for the vast majority of on hit and %proc effects physical damage can outscale those values pretty quickly. It's why for a thrower, LD is better than Shadowdancer (SD gives SA dice, more RP in the cores, and 5% Vuln proc).

The one real exception to this rule is Mortal Fear against things susceptible to it's most powerful effect. On EE where mobs regularly have 10k+ HP, a vorpal proc is anywhere from 5000-8000 damage with Mortal Fear. That's 250-400 damage per hit. Against trash, you would have to have 200 additional Ranged Power to equivocate. So, versus Red/Purple named, you might actually come out ahead (for full time bow users).

For your hybrid build, its definitely a knock, no matter what. It's like Manyshot was originally designed to be a hybrid characters dream: Use off cooldown for big ranged damage, penalize doubleshot (or not before Doubleshot existed), to switch back to melee. Now they have decided since there is Doubleshot and 10k to just make it be a full time archers ability. The same is happening with 10k stars, which was never meant to only fully benefit pure class Monks. It was just a way to throw extra stars sometimes, rewarding you for high Wisdom. Now it is being adapted to benefit heavy Monk splash full time bow users. Whatever.

[FranOhmsford]

I dont get how every class pass you make it about throwers

Ive only played a thrower once and it seemed very powerful, you seem to have played lots of different versions, talk about how easy it is and how you "dominate" yet you continuously want to be buffed even more, every revamped tree you have wanted even more power and when it comes to monk im sure throwers will get alot more. yes i know it be nice if monk wasnt required but i dont really see any non shuriken

I've also read and heard plenty about Thrower builds being super-duper awesome. {Long before these changes}.

I'm seeing more and more Throwers actually in-game recently - Again these changes haven't come into effect yet.

I've also read and heard a whole bunch about Thrower Builds being the red-headed step-child of DDO.

Now I don't know if it's the same people saying these things - I don't memorize the exact post in every thread and who posted it.

But it does seem like Throwers are one of those specialized builds that some people can make be awesome and for everyone else they're a waste of time.

What actually gets me is what's so special about being able to play a thrower in the first place? Are they actually that much better than a Bow or X-Bow user? Is there a Lore reason that I'm just not au fait to? What is it about Throwers that makes them so wanted by what seems to be a quite significant section of the forums?


Lastly - My one issue with Throwing in DDO is the emphasis on the Shuriken!
We have Throwing Hammers, Axes, Daggers and Darts but seemingly the only weapon that's actually worth building a Thrower around is the Shuriken!
Why aren't more Thrower complaints about that issue?
P.S. No....One specific named Dart isn't going to make the difference!

[Holymunchkin]

Yeah word. I know the math show less missiles over time, but what I don't know if shows is actual total damage. As with throwers, the number of missiles is one variable (both from extra proc chances * actual rate of fire). With a lower total number of missiles you will get less proc/on hit effects, but that can be rapidly made up for by the other multiple in the DPS equation: Physical damage. If the Ranged power during Manyshot is raised enough, it will outpace the lost on hit and %proc effects you lose. And for the vast majority of on hit and %proc effects physical damage can outscale those values pretty quickly. It's why for a thrower, LD is better than Shadowdancer (SD gives SA dice, more RP in the cores, and 5% Vuln proc).

The one real exception to this rule is Mortal Fear against things susceptible to it's most powerful effect. On EE where mobs regularly have 10k+ HP, a vorpal proc is anywhere from 5000-8000 damage with Mortal Fear. That's 250-400 damage per hit. Against trash, you would have to have 200 additional Ranged Power to equivocate. So, versus Red/Purple named, you might actually come out ahead (for full time bow users).

For your hybrid build, its definitely a knock, no matter what. It's like Manyshot was originally designed to be a hybrid characters dream: Use off cooldown for big ranged damage, penalize doubleshot (or not before Doubleshot existed), to switch back to melee. Now they have decided since there is Doubleshot and 10k to just make it be a full time archers ability. The same is happening with 10k stars, which was never meant to only fully benefit pure class Monks. It was just a way to throw extra stars sometimes, rewarding you for high Wisdom. Now it is being adapted to benefit heavy Monk splash full time bow users. Whatever.

thanks for your continued advice on this subject Jakee
lot's going on with these changes and you definitely are hitting the nail on the head with 10k

[Chai]

Pure monk gets something nice and the dogs off its leash again, eh?

[Grace_ana]

Lastly - My one issue with Throwing in DDO is the emphasis on the Shuriken!
We have Throwing Hammers, Axes, Daggers and Darts but seemingly the only weapon that's actually worth building a Thrower around is the Shuriken!
Why aren't more Thrower complaints about that issue?
P.S. No....One specific named Dart isn't going to make the difference!

I already threw my fit over this issue a few times, especially during the rogue pass. They added throwers into the mechanic tree but then didn't give them decent bonuses. That seemed like a ready-made opportunity for them to make non-shuriken throwers viable. Stuff from the swash tree still isn't applying correctly to throwers either, to my knowledge.

I have another PDK-pally life to run on my main, so I am probably trying out a pally-mech thrower to test out specifically how far behind it feels from my shuriken build. I suspect I will be wildly underwhelmed.

[jakeelala]

Pure monk gets something nice and the dogs off its leash again, eh?

This is not what people want when they complain about monks. They want unarmed combat fixed.

[jakeelala]

I already threw my fit over this issue a few times, especially during the rogue pass. They added throwers into the mechanic tree but then didn't give them decent bonuses. That seemed like a ready-made opportunity for them to make non-shuriken throwers viable. Stuff from the swash tree still isn't applying correctly to throwers either, to my knowledge.

I have another PDK-pally life to run on my main, so I am probably trying out a pally-mech thrower to test out specifically how far behind it feels from my shuriken build. I suspect I will be wildly underwhelmed.

Dont waste your time. Its terrible. If you have shadowstar and some bard and ranger levels you can abuse sniper shot in heroics because your crit range will be 5-20 with Swashbuckling.

But that will be fixed soon.

[redoubt]

for a 20 Monk it's 100% Doubleshot (wrapping if the latest dev posts are to be believed) and Wisdom score to Ranged Power. If you get your wisdom to 38+, and your Monk level over 12-14, this ability is better than the Epic Moment in Divine Crusader.

At 20 Monk with 42+ Wisdom, it far exceeds it, due to how often it's up (50% of the time). Really Devs? One ability is going to grant that much power but only to a pure class?

Better idea:

10k stars grants 2*Wisdom Score in Doubleshot (end game would be 60-100'ish) and 3*Monk level in Ranged Power (3-60 Ranged Power depending on split).

My consideration is regarding it's potential use by throwing builds with Shuriken. Not all thrower builds should require 20 Monk levels to be competitive. I don't have the mental wherewithal to gameplan it in every possible ranged build. My feeling however is that one way or the other, no Ranged build will go without it.

Moreover, I am frustrated that ALL of the discussion of 10k stars has revolved around it's utility to Archery, when it is in fact a SHURIKEN specific ability that also allows bows with an extra feat.

Can we please have some dev comments on how they feel 10k changes will affect throwing characters and builds? Do a quick forum survey, there are as many throwers now as there are archery characters, but we're not being represented or acknowledged.

#ThrowerBuildsMatter

Its still less powerful than it was before.

[jakeelala]

Its still less powerful than it was before.

No, it absolutely is not

most people were lucky at end game to have 42 wisdom. That was equivalent to around 90% doubleshot half of the time. So 45% total average doubleshot. However you did not benefit from actual doubleshot for 30 seconds of 10k, and another 15 after that, making whatever actual doubleshot you had contribute at 25%. Figure 38% doubleshot *.25 = 9.5 + 45 = 54.5% effective doubleshot.

After the changes, you will have doubleshot of 3*Monk level. If youre twelve monk, thats 36% doubleshot. However, with 6 ranger levels, you can now get a minimum of 38% base doubleshot, with epic feat, tier 5 DWS, and 8% from the new quiver in Tavern Brawl.

36*.5 is 18, + 38 static, since you now get doubleshot during and after 10k, = 56% effective full-time Doubleshot. The higher your Doubleshot (such as from Killer or 3x Primal past lives) the further the new 10k pulls ahead.

so you see, apples to apples with 12 monk levels, 10k is even. But wait! You still get to add 2*Wisdom to your ranged power 50% of the time, so you're up a whopping 42 average Ranged Power on top of it (assuming 42 Wisdom).

10k is now non-negotiable for a thrower.

[jakeelala]

I dont get how every class pass you make it about throwers

Ive only played a thrower once and it seemed very powerful, you seem to have played lots of different versions, talk about how easy it is and how you "dominate" yet you continuously want to be buffed even more, every revamped tree you have wanted even more power and when it comes to monk im sure throwers will get alot more. yes i know it be nice if monk wasnt required but i dont really see any non shuriken

Pretty clear that you just dont want to see the guy you have a problem with build getter something better than yours.

Actually it has nothing to do with better or seeing someone else get a buff.

It has to do with this change being so significant that there is simply no choice but to go pure Monk. Currently the only way to get Advanced Ninja Training, +2 To your crit threat, and maximized 10k DS/RP is with pure monk. Before the the changes to 10k, there was still some wiggle room to do alternative builds (like for trapping, big SA damage, higher saves, uncentered in some armor, etc) which all provided trade offs for playstyle but were not 10 or 20% behind a pure Monk, and while the DPS focused versions were probably slightly ahead of monk, it was no so drastic that it made much of a difference.

But with these changes, all thrower build diversity is dead.

This doesn't even touch upon the easy fix but now totally broken state of Bards re: throwing, or all 4 other types of throwing weapons which see absolutely zero application in game today (Darts, Axes, Hammers and Daggers).

I would ecstatic if the devs would make a couple small changes to make those other weapon types and therefore non-Monk thrower builds viable. But alas, they so far have not commented at all about fixing existing thrower bugs, or balancing the other throwing weapons to make them worth building around.

[redoubt]

No, it absolutely is not

most people were lucky at end game to have 42 wisdom. That was equivalent to around 90% doubleshot half of the time. So 45% total average doubleshot. However you did not benefit from actual doubleshot for 30 seconds of 10k, and another 15 after that, making whatever actual doubleshot you had contribute at 25%. Figure 38% doubleshot *.25 = 9.5 + 45 = 54.5% effective doubleshot.

After the changes, you will have doubleshot of 3*Monk level. If youre twelve monk, thats 36% doubleshot. However, with 6 ranger levels, you can now get a minimum of 38% base doubleshot, with epic feat, tier 5 DWS, and 8% from the new quiver in Tavern Brawl.

36*.5 is 18, + 38 static, since you now get doubleshot during and after 10k, = 56% effective full-time Doubleshot. The higher your Doubleshot (such as from Killer or 3x Primal past lives) the further the new 10k pulls ahead.

so you see, apples to apples with 12 monk levels, 10k is even. But wait! You still get to add 2*Wisdom to your ranged power 50% of the time, so you're up a whopping 42 average Ranged Power on top of it (assuming 42 Wisdom).

10k is now non-negotiable for a thrower.

I won't comment on the thrower part. I also have not run a 12 monk with 10k. I ran 6 monk, that is only 18% doubleshot. When running Manyshot, 10k, pause 10k, repeat with things that rely on procs it is a drop in power.

[Firewall]

The new 10k stars gives power to all kinds of shuriken throwers equally and thus is quite balanced.

The feat was originally created to be a benefit for a shuriken throwing monk (and not archers which were added later). It requires a heavy investment in WIS (through tomes, gear, attribute points etc.), Concentration skillpoints (and thus also somewhat in CON), passive Ki regeneration (8 AP in Henshin Mystic, 1 Twist slot for Enlightenment, staying in water stance,...) and also Ki management because the Ki-resource is shared with other monk abilities like Abundant Step, Shadow Veil, Wholeness of Body, Finishing Move Buffs etc. and thus has a right to be somewhat better than the DC Boost.

Pure monks benefit from higher Doubleshot during 10k stars but even for a pure monk that is only equivalent to 50% fulltime Doubleshot and half the WIS value in ranged power because it is active for 50% of the time at best. Without this change 20 monks would have had no 2nd chance for a projectile during 10k stars which archers can easily get and also almost no benefit from the removal of the Doubleshot Penalty.
Pure monks also lost 10% crit range due to the IC nerf and thus also quite some power of their Sting of the Ninja Enhancement which procs on crits and things like TF on-crit procs.

Rogue and ranger splashes benefit much more from the removal of the Doubleshot penalty due to high fulltime Doubleshot bonuses from their enhancements (where pure monks have none!) and thus make up for the loss in attacks during 10k which is only up half of the time.
Also they benefit a lot more from the added ranged power because they can achieve higher Sneak Attack damage which even scales with 150% ranged power.
Splash builds only lost 5% crit range from halfling or holy sword.

A 15 monk/5 ranger or 14 monk/6 ranger will be able to have higher overall SA-damage, SA range and fulltime Doubleshot bonus than a pure monk with the new version of the feat for example. With your proposal they would be even further ahead of pure monks.

It was easy before to have way higher WIS than only 42 if you made it your second most valuable attribute and ran in water stance. This means there is actually no buff in the new feat. My 20 monk shuriken thrower character even lost a lot of fulltime Doubleshot equivalent and damage by the balance pass which is not compensated by the added ranged power.

Another benefit of the Lamannia version of the 10k feat is that WIS makes a smaller difference in the power of the feat now (so you don't have to invest that much) and you also benefit from uneven values. Also the Divine Crusader ED is now more powerful for shuriken throwers because of up to 60% Doubleshot bonus and 6 WIS.

I agree that they should make other throwing weapon options viable too to add more build diversity.

[jakeelala]

The new 10k stars gives power to all kinds of shuriken throwers equally and thus is quite balanced.

The feat was originally created to be a benefit for a shuriken throwing monk (and not archers which were added later). It requires a heavy investment in WIS (through tomes, gear, attribute points etc.), Concentration skillpoints (and thus also somewhat in CON), passive Ki regeneration (8 AP in Henshin Mystic, 1 Twist slot for Enlightenment, staying in water stance,...) and also Ki management because the Ki-resource is shared with other monk abilities like Abundant Step, Shadow Veil, Wholeness of Body, Finishing Move Buffs etc. and thus has a right to be somewhat better than the DC Boost.



None of this matters to the balance of 10k. Concentration is one of the of most common skills. It's not hard to maximize. Moreover, your max concentration is of little consequence. You regenin'g Ki is what matters.



Pure monks benefit from higher Doubleshot during 10k stars but even for a pure monk that is only equivalent to 50% fulltime Doubleshot and half the WIS value in ranged power because it is active for 50% of the time at best. Without this change 20 monks would have had no 2nd chance for a projectile during 10k stars which archers can easily get and also almost no benefit from the removal of the Doubleshot Penalty.
Pure monks also lost 10% crit range due to the IC nerf and thus also quite some power of their Sting of the Ninja Enhancement which procs on crits and things like TF on-crit procs.


It's not a nerf. You were benefiting from a known bug. It was not WAI. You cannot claim that as something you should have made up to you. YOu enjoyed a bug while it lasted, it's going away now.



Rogue and ranger splashes benefit much more from the removal of the Doubleshot penalty due to high fulltime Doubleshot bonuses from their enhancements (where pure monks have none!) and thus make up for the loss in attacks during 10k which is only up half of the time.
Also they benefit a lot more from the added ranged power because they can achieve higher Sneak Attack damage which even scales with 150% ranged power.
Splash builds only lost 5% crit range from halfling or holy sword.


Ranger or Rogue splits only have 10-20% more Doubleshot than pure monks, with 10% Epic, 9% Epic PL, and 8%-10% Enchantment bonus all coming form sources independent from Class splits. 29% fulltime vs 39 or even 49% of a rogue or ranger split is not equivalent to the 5% per level that Monks would receive. Again, I've stated that 14 or 15 Monk with 5 Rogue or Ranger levels will be ahead, but all that means you can only have a thrower with 14-20 Monk levels.



A 15 monk/5 ranger or 14 monk/6 ranger will be able to have higher overall SA-damage, SA range and fulltime Doubleshot bonus than a pure monk with the new version of the feat for example. With your proposal they would be even further ahead of pure monks.

It was easy before to have way higher WIS than only 42 if you made it your second most valuable attribute and ran in water stance. This means there is actually no buff in the new feat. My 20 monk shuriken thrower character even lost a lot of fulltime Doubleshot equivalent and damage by the balance pass which is not compensated by the added ranged power.


Without at least 12 levels of Monk, all others will fall quite far behind. I already showed the math above making it clear you did not lose any Doubleshot, you are gaining it along with a lot of Ranged Power. Please contradict math with math. Until you do I think it's fair to say you are just defending a change that gives great power to your preferred 20 Monk build, under the guise that it's good for all, but really it's only good for 20 Monks. Because new 10k depends on Monk level for Doubleshot. Can you refute it? No amount of Sneak Attack attainable with Rogue levels is worth Doubleshot provided by 6-14 Monk levels with the new 10k. That's 30-70% more Doubleshot during 10k. That's too much. That's why I switched the formula in my suggestion. It's still better for monks, but it's not so much better that it required 14+ Monk levels for a thrower.

And by the way, lets look at Wisdom scores:

Starting 16
Tome 6
Globe 1
Profane 2
Insight 4
Enchantment 12
Completionist 2
--------------------------
43 Before any monk stances. And thats with a +6 Tome and Visions of Precision (a raid item). Globes and Epic Litany and Completionist as well. If this is your definition of easy to do, I'm glad you're not developing balance for this game. These are rare and difficult to obtain items. And they represent the only way to get Wisdom without sacrificing Dexterity, which is more important.



Another benefit of the Lamannia version of the 10k feat is that WIS makes a smaller difference in the power of the feat now (so you don't have to invest that much) and you also benefit from uneven values. Also the Divine Crusader ED is now more powerful for shuriken throwers because of up to 60% Doubleshot bonus and 6 WIS.

I agree that they should make other throwing weapon options viable too to add more build diversity.

Please show your math, this is inaccurate as far evenness of power between thrower builds is concerned.
This is terrible for build diversity. Also, as you mention, it makes Wisdom based ED's more compelling, though DC is still terrible, and the epic Moment is trash. Though it will offer interesting burst damage with the new very overpowered 10k stars when you use them at once for 150% doubleshot and 150 Ranged Power.

I hope the Devs are reading this.

[Jiirix]

Your discussion boils down to me to: One guy with 3 multiclass thrower builds in his signature says the new 10k stars formula favors pure monks too much and the guy with a prominent pure monk thrower build in his signature says it’s all right.

With the new formula everyone with 10kstars could get a decent bonus to ranged power as long as you got high WIS (I guess that’s a bone for the Monkcher-AAs out there) but the double shot bonus of 10k stars goes down when splashing other classes (like ranger for many shot.)

My 12 ranger/6monk/2rogue build did good but not overpowered damage on Lammania against the kobolds. I would like to test him when L-Land is up again and see how it is in quests. The “wisdoms to RP” part is fine to me as you don’t get WIS-to-Damage and have to invest in DEX/STR/INT too. I didn't see much difference on my pure monk thrower, but that may be comparing apples to oranges because the two of you have invested so much into your throwers. Just don’t forget your heroes are far from being representative for the normal thrower toon out there.

[Arlathen]

#Imstill****edaboutmanyshotchanges

#Imstill****edaboutmanyshotchanges :(

[Hephaistor]

This is not what people want when they complain about monks. They want unarmed combat fixed.

Yes, monk players want to get unarmed combat fixed. But that 10k stars gives a situational usefull ranged option that scales good with monk levels is a thing monk players would like too! 10k stars can be useful on EVERY pure monk build is something nice IMHO and fits the ranged options in GMoF. 10k stars should be something usefull for monks in general and not only for special builds.

[Severlin]

Interesting thread.

~ We are or course looking at the DPS of monk throwers, but we'd also like to see some actual DPS tests of your builds.

~ We know unarmed monks need a pass. We can't easily shore up those builds without looking into wraps and doing a more complete investigation because so many abilities don't work with unarmed.

Sev~

[HungarianRhapsody]

for a 20 Monk it's 100% Doubleshot (wrapping if the latest dev posts are to be believed) and Wisdom score to Ranged Power. If you get your wisdom to 38+, and your Monk level over 12-14, this ability is better than the Epic Moment in Divine Crusader.

At 20 Monk with 42+ Wisdom, it far exceeds it, due to how often it's up (50% of the time). Really Devs? One ability is going to grant that much power but only to a pure class?

Better idea:

10k stars grants 2*Wisdom Score in Doubleshot (end game would be 60-100'ish) and 3*Monk level in Ranged Power (3-60 Ranged Power depending on split).

My consideration is regarding it's potential use by throwing builds with Shuriken. Not all thrower builds should require 20 Monk levels to be competitive. I don't have the mental wherewithal to gameplan it in every possible ranged build. My feeling however is that one way or the other, no Ranged build will go without it.

Moreover, I am frustrated that ALL of the discussion of 10k stars has revolved around it's utility to Archery, when it is in fact a SHURIKEN specific ability that also allows bows with an extra feat.

Can we please have some dev comments on how they feel 10k changes will affect throwing characters and builds? Do a quick forum survey, there are as many throwers now as there are archery characters, but we're not being represented or acknowledged.

#ThrowerBuildsMatter

I'm a bit tired and possibly slightly hungover, so I can't math right now.

Can you compare the new Monk 20 thrower with the changes to the current top-output ranged with all of the currently available goodies?

Because it seems like even getting slightly over 100% Doubleshot would still be behind the current top ranged builds. Am I mathing wrong when I compare what we have now?

[jakeelala]

Interesting thread.

~ We are or course looking at the DPS of monk throwers, but we'd also like to see some actual DPS tests of your builds.

~ We know unarmed monks need a pass. We can't easily shore up those builds without looking into wraps and doing a more complete investigation because so many abilities don't work with unarmed.

Sev~

I would be more than happy to oblige, but you would need to leave Lamm up longer than 2 days during the week. For people with full time jobs and families, 4 hours blocked off to test something generally requires a weekend. Until then I can only give calcs and not realworld times.

It would be nice if someone like Firewall could also test his pure monk on Lamm and we could have a legit bake off. I don't really care who wins, but it would be nice to have simultaneous test resutls under identical environments (Lamm with the new changes).

[Atremus]

Interesting thread.

~ We are or course looking at the DPS of monk throwers, but we'd also like to see some actual DPS tests of your builds.

~ We know unarmed monks need a pass. We can't easily shore up those builds without looking into wraps and doing a more complete investigation because so many abilities don't work with unarmed.

Sev~

Open up Lamania for a week and I will do some unarmed testing (non thrower) for you. I need a week though to make some throw away toons and try a few combinations. Of course in preperation for the great handwrap fix.

Longer than a week, I might even come up with some thrower testing

Side Note/Speaking for myself: I am still on board with throwing away all of my wraps to get better working new wraps as weapons that do function with ED stuff and enhancements properly. If you needed to know how important this fix would be.

[AbyssalMage]

None of this matters to the balance of 10k. Concentration is one of the of most common skills. It's not hard to maximize. Moreover, your max concentration is of little consequence. You regenin'g Ki is what matters.
Then dump Concentration on your build and discover how much it matters. I know you know this and you are just being argumentative so I will forgive you. We can both agree that Ki regeneration is the most important thing which is why the build gets stronger as you level and you have more Enhancement Points.


It's not a nerf. You were benefiting from a known bug. It was not WAI. You cannot claim that as something you should have made up to you. YOu enjoyed a bug while it lasted, it's going away now.
Yes, it was a bug. What they are doing to fix the bug is a bastardization to IC:Weapon.


Ranger or Rogue splits only have 10-20% more Doubleshot than pure monks, with 10% Epic, 9% Epic PL, and 8%-10% Enchantment bonus all coming form sources independent from Class splits. 29% fulltime vs 39 or even 49% of a rogue or ranger split is not equivalent to the 5% per level that Monks would receive. Again, I've stated that 14 or 15 Monk with 5 Rogue or Ranger levels will be ahead, but all that means you can only have a thrower with 14-20 Monk levels.
I'm still trying to figure out if Double Shot (DS) is as powerful as you are trying to make it. We had DS before these proposed changes and boosting it was always a priority yet DPS came from other sources/feats. The Ranged Power that is being attached to 10k it is very welcomed though.


Without at least 12 levels of Monk, all others will fall quite far behind. I already showed the math above making it clear you did not lose any Doubleshot, you are gaining it along with a lot of Ranged Power. Please contradict math with math. Until you do I think it's fair to say you are just defending a change that gives great power to your preferred 20 Monk build, under the guise that it's good for all, but really it's only good for 20 Monks. Because new 10k depends on Monk level for Doubleshot. Can you refute it? No amount of Sneak Attack attainable with Rogue levels is worth Doubleshot provided by 6-14 Monk levels with the new 10k. That's 30-70% more Doubleshot during 10k. That's too much. That's why I switched the formula in my suggestion. It's still better for monks, but it's not so much better that it required 14+ Monk levels for a thrower.
I've seen the math. I've seen actual game play. I'm more susceptible to actual game play. I want to say there are variables not being taken into consideration for why I see discrepancies. It very well could be programming is the problem, not your math.


And by the way, lets look at Wisdom scores:

Starting 16
Tome 6
Globe 1
Profane 2
Insight 4
Enchantment 12
Completionist 2
--------------------------
43 Before any monk stances. And thats with a +6 Tome and Visions of Precision (a raid item). Globes and Epic Litany and Completionist as well. If this is your definition of easy to do, I'm glad you're not developing balance for this game. These are rare and difficult to obtain items. And they represent the only way to get Wisdom without sacrificing Dexterity, which is more important.
Maybe that is the problem in your math? Developers, at least recently, have a misguided perception of what players are actually doing. There justification to nerfing 14/6 Paladin/Rogue was a perception by the community that it was more powerful than 18/2 or 20 Rogue Mechanic. Sometimes math just doesn't translate into what happens "in game."

With the proposed changes, Wisdom, not Dexterity, may be the most important stat.


Please show your math, this is inaccurate as far evenness of power between thrower builds is concerned.
This is terrible for build diversity. Also, as you mention, it makes Wisdom based ED's more compelling, though DC is still terrible, and the epic Moment is trash. Though it will offer interesting burst damage with the new very overpowered 10k stars when you use them at once for 150% doubleshot and 150 Ranged Power.

I hope the Devs are reading this.
Throwing 2.5 stars is Over Performing? Ranged power will be nice but it makes up for the loss of critical, stars, and DPS (that melee innately have).

[Shoemaker]

#ThrowerBuildsMatter

#AllBuildsMatter my friend...

[HungarianRhapsody]

#AllBuildsMatter my friend...

Please don't try to make #ThrowerBuildsMatter sounds like it's excluding other builds. Everyone already treats melee builds and CC/Instakill builds as deserving of consideration and Bow (and even crossbow) builds have gotten attention, so when someone says #ThrowerBuildsMatter, they're saying that Thrower Builds Matter *TOO*. We are not saying that the other builds don't matter. And I'm tired of the melee privilege that people keep throwing around. Google "melee privilege checklist" and educate yourself, please before you start in with that #AllBuildsMatter


#IStandWithDrizzt

[AbyssalMage]

#AllBuildsMatter my friend...
You are on the Players Council and you posted this ^
Gah...so much wrong with the world today.

p.s. Decided to delete the rest. Have a feeling I would have gotten another warning (or worse).

[bartharok]

You are on the Players Council and you posted this ^
Gah...so much wrong with the world today.

p.s. Decided to delete the rest. Have a feeling I would have gotten another warning (or worse).

Umm.. Exactly what is wrong with saying that all builds matter?

[Chai]

Umm.. Exactly what is wrong with saying that all builds matter?

That directly contradicts the schadenfreude being aimed at those who are irritated by the nerfs, who are being told to leave if they don't like it in multiple threads now.

[jakeelala]

snip

Why dont you test some builds on Lamm and help everyone find out?

And I've always dumped concentration on non-10k throwers.

I ust farmed for the new quiver since it looks like my builds will require 10k, and the abbot quiver is no longer workable with the -50 concentration.

None of this means it's hard to maximize it. Its one of Monks only class skills.

[blerkington]

Hi,

This thread doesn't have to be about nerfing anything or personal animosity between anyone.

It's important to anyone who plays or wants to play a thrower to know whether or not 10k builds are significantly ahead. Discussion and testing will help us work that out. The solution might be to make non 10k builds better rather than making 10k builds worse.

It's important to the game that people have a choice about how to build optimal or near optimal characters for that combat style. For a game that prides itself on diversity of build options, options in DDO are really very constricted at the top end. It's less obvious than it should be because of the content mostly being much too easy for skilled and invested players.

I'm certainly not an expert on throwers, but it looks to me like the dev team is making the same mistake here that they did for so long with archery; making 10k stars too good to ignore if you want an optimal character. In my view that is not a good result.

Thanks.

[ThePrincipal]

for a 20 Monk it's 100% Doubleshot (wrapping if the latest dev posts are to be believed) and Wisdom score to Ranged Power. If you get your wisdom to 38+, and your Monk level over 12-14, this ability is better than the Epic Moment in Divine Crusader.

At 20 Monk with 42+ Wisdom, it far exceeds it, due to how often it's up (50% of the time). Really Devs? One ability is going to grant that much power but only to a pure class?

Better idea:

10k stars grants 2*Wisdom Score in Doubleshot (end game would be 60-100'ish) and 3*Monk level in Ranged Power (3-60 Ranged Power depending on split).

My consideration is regarding it's potential use by throwing builds with Shuriken. Not all thrower builds should require 20 Monk levels to be competitive. I don't have the mental wherewithal to gameplan it in every possible ranged build. My feeling however is that one way or the other, no Ranged build will go without it.

Moreover, I am frustrated that ALL of the discussion of 10k stars has revolved around it's utility to Archery, when it is in fact a SHURIKEN specific ability that also allows bows with an extra feat.

Can we please have some dev comments on how they feel 10k changes will affect throwing characters and builds? Do a quick forum survey, there are as many throwers now as there are archery characters, but we're not being represented or acknowledged.

#ThrowerBuildsMatter

Your hashtag is in really poor taste btw.

[zeonardo]

Interesting thread.

~ We are or course looking at the DPS of monk throwers, but we'd also like to see some actual DPS tests of your builds.

~ We know unarmed monks need a pass. We can't easily shore up those builds without looking into wraps and doing a more complete investigation because so many abilities don't work with unarmed.

Sev~

Instead of fixing monks, why don't you just nerf paladins instead... #ohwait

[jakeelala]

Your hashtag is in really poor taste btw.

I apologize if it offended you. I don't really think it's offensive, and I am not trying to disrespect or denigrate the hashtag #BlackLivesMatter if that's what you're referring to.

[jakeelala]

Hi,

This thread doesn't have to be about nerfing anything or personal animosity between anyone.

It's important to anyone who plays or wants to play a thrower to know whether or not 10k builds are significantly ahead. Discussion and testing will help us work that out. The solution might be to make non 10k builds better rather than making 10k builds worse.

It's important to the game that people have a choice about how to build optimal or near optimal characters for that combat style. For a game that prides itself on diversity of build options, options in DDO are really very constricted at the top end. It's less obvious than it should be because of the content mostly being much too easy for skilled and invested players.

I'm certainly not an expert on throwers, but it looks to me like the dev team is making the same mistake here that they did for so long with archery; making 10k stars too good to ignore if you want an optimal character. In my view that is not a good result.

Thanks.

Thanks. I didn't even ask for a nerf, which is the hilarious part of the majority of the criticism here.

I asked that the ability be made less exclusive of non-pure monks. There's a huge difference. Even if the devs took my advice and changed it, pure monks would still get a good deal more out of 10k than a pure build, just not as much as they do with the current proposed calculation.

[Coyopa]

Personally, I would like to see Shuriken Expertise changed to Throwing Expertise and let it apply to all thrown weapons. That change would single-handedly open up lots of build choices rather than making shuriken throwers the One True Throwing Build.

[jakeelala]

Personally, I would like to see Shuriken Expertise changed to Throwing Expertise and let it apply to all thrown weapons. That change would single-handedly open up lots of build choices rather than making shuriken throwers the One True Throwing Build.

I have also made this suggestion a number of times to the Devs and am largely in favor of it too.

[Saekee]

Personally, I would like to see Shuriken Expertise changed to Throwing Expertise and let it apply to all thrown weapons. That change would single-handedly open up lots of build choices rather than making shuriken throwers the One True Throwing Build.
That would make Drow a little more interesting too in terms of build options. A drow assassin that could somehow get knife spec to work with throwing daggers (I think it does, but am not sure) would bring an occasional ranged addition to pure assassins at no cost, other than maybe taking quickdraw.

edit: You might as well start a new thread in suggestions & ideas about changing shuriken expertise, unless it was already done

[Coyopa]

That would make Drow a little more interesting too in terms of build options. A drow assassin that could somehow get knife spec to work with throwing daggers (I think it does, but am not sure) would bring an occasional ranged addition to pure assassins at no cost, other than maybe taking quickdraw.

edit: You might as well start a new thread in suggestions & ideas about changing shuriken expertise, unless it was already done

Yes, it would make them more interesting. I'm currently trying out a Drow 12 ranger/7 bard/1 arti build (arti for traps). It's level 9 right now (5 ranger/3 bard/1 arti).

[Shoemaker]

Please don't try to make #ThrowerBuildsMatter sounds like it's excluding other builds. Everyone already treats melee builds and CC/Instakill builds as deserving of consideration and Bow (and even crossbow) builds have gotten attention, so when someone says #ThrowerBuildsMatter, they're saying that Thrower Builds Matter *TOO*. We are not saying that the other builds don't matter. And I'm tired of the melee privilege that people keep throwing around. Google "melee privilege checklist" and educate yourself, please before you start in with that #AllBuildsMatter


#IStandWithDrizzt

I understand your frustration... My point is that #HealerBuildsMatter and #TrappingBuildsMatter and #CasterBuildsMatter TOO - Not everything is melee or thrower...


You are on the Players Council and you posted this ^
Gah...so much wrong with the world today.

p.s. Decided to delete the rest. Have a feeling I would have gotten another warning (or worse).

Feel free to inbox me the rest, leave it on my wiki talk page, or even email it to me. I'm interested in what you have to say, and you shouldn't fear repercussion for it. Fair enough?

[Shoemaker]

Personally, I would like to see Shuriken Expertise changed to Throwing Expertise and let it apply to all thrown weapons. That change would single-handedly open up lots of build choices rather than making shuriken throwers the One True Throwing Build.

Why changed? You don't think that both should be offered? Do you believe that all weapons should do exactly the same amount of damage? Do you believe that all builds should be the same and the only flavor should be the cosmetic appearance of what the different weapons look like? I think making everything work the same reduces flavor and diversity in builds, and I would likely be opposed to that.

[hunzi2010]

I cant believe this hasn't even gone live and your crying.
what is up with this minority of people posting on this forum crying to nerf everything all the time.
Do you not want to play a class properly?
And yes I think this is a great idea for a PURE class. this gives the incentive of going pure over splash.
If you guys keep on crying like babies to the devs for nerf nerf and wait for it.... NERF your going to end up killing this game and resulting in this being unplayable.
everyone leaving and no community.
Pure monk is wayyyyy behind everything at the moment.
no prr no mrr, handwraps broken, qp nerfed. the only thing they are good for is either a splash or cannon fodder in a quest.
my monk will hit 60 wiz at lvl 28. yes that's 60 and yes I will use 10k stars and have some fun on this class for a change.
#rollingonmymonk
enjoy :)
p.s. I may even give you a monk buff :P

[Son_of_the_South]

I cant believe this hasn't even gone live and your crying.
what is up with this minority of people posting on this forum crying to nerf everything all the time.
Do you not want to play a class properly?
And yes I think this is a great idea for a PURE class. this gives the incentive of going pure over splash.
If you guys keep on crying like babies to the devs for nerf nerf and wait for it.... NERF your going to end up killing this game and resulting in this being unplayable.
everyone leaving and no community.
Pure monk is wayyyyy behind everything at the moment.
no prr no mrr, handwraps broken, qp nerfed. the only thing they are good for is either a splash or cannon fodder in a quest.
my monk will hit 60 wiz at lvl 28. yes that's 60 and yes I will use 10k stars and have some fun on this class for a change.
#rollingonmymonk
enjoy :)
p.s. I may even give you a monk buff :P

Rock on Hunz !

[Coyopa]

Why changed? You don't think that both should be offered? Do you believe that all weapons should do exactly the same amount of damage? Do you believe that all builds should be the same and the only flavor should be the cosmetic appearance of what the different weapons look like? I think making everything work the same reduces flavor and diversity in builds, and I would likely be opposed to that.

You obviously have no clue what Shuriken Expertise does. Here, let me help you: http://ddowiki.com/page/Shuriken_Expertise . There. All better now? Shuriken Expertise has nothing to do with damage. It has to do with having a chance to throw a second projectile based on your dexterity score. Throwing builds rely more heavily on rate of fire to be competitive because their weapons typically do less damage than even a bow does. So, by changing Shuriken Expertise to be Throwing Expertise, then you make it possible for people using throwing weapons that are not shurikens to achieve a rate of fire that makes those other weapons competitive with using shurikens. I'm galled that you're on the Players Council and didn't even bother to do a modicum of learning before responding to my post. As far as the change I'm advocating, they could even make it a multi-selector so that instead of Throwing Expertise being a single feat letting you get an extra projectile no matter what throwing weapon you're using, they could set it up similar to Improved Critical such that you'd have choices like this:

* Throwing Expertise: Throwing Dagger
* Throwing Expertise: Throwing Hammer
* Throwing Expertise: Throwing Axe
* Throwing Expertise: Dart
* Throwing Expertise: Shuriken

That would make people who want to play a throwing build choose which weapon (or weapons, since they shouldn't be mutually exclusive) they want to focus on. Honestly, if it were set up this way, I would have selected axes and hammers because that's what I really wanted anyway. However, since shuriken throwers can achieve a much higher rate of fire, it makes choosing anything else pointless. Since you aren't familiar with how throwing weapons work, let me educate you a bit further so you fully understand why this change is important.

Let's say we've got a character with 50 dexterity, 35% doubleshot, and a 30% doubleshot action boost. (These are achievable numbers and I don't even have a completionist.) Now, with Shuriken Expertise and using shurikens, this character has a 50% chance to throw another shuriken on every attack. Doubleshot is calculated for each shuriken thrown indepedently. This means that every time this character makes a throwing attack with a shuriken, they have the potential to actually throw four shurikens at once: 2 based on their dexterity, and then another 1 for each of those 2 based on their doubleshot. Now, if that character switches to any other thrown weapon, they have only a 35% chance to throw two projectiles, which can be boosted to 65% for up to about three or four minutes (depending on class split, destiny, twists of fate, and so on). And if you think I'm wrong about the way Shuriken Expertise and doubleshot stack, you should think again. I'm currently running a thrower build and I've seen where I have gotten three or four projectiles thrown. Granted, four is rare since my doubleshot is only 3% right now. However, soon that character will have an unbuffed doubleshot of 33%, boostable to 63%, and his dexterity at level 9 is already around 28. I can see the difference in how much slower my rate of fire is when I switch to a hammer (for skeletons) as compared to when I'm using a shuriken. The only saving grace for the hammer is that skeletons take full damage from that since it's a blunt weapon.

[stricek]

Interesting thread.

~ We are or course looking at the DPS of monk throwers, but we'd also like to see some actual DPS tests of your builds.

~ We know unarmed monks need a pass. We can't easily shore up those builds without looking into wraps and doing a more complete investigation because so many abilities don't work with unarmed.

Sev~

I spent a long time testing throwing aditional projectiles(shurikens) on dummy. I have 70 dex and 35% DS. I checked combat log for rolls after each mouse click(throw). Most I've seen were 4 projectiles. So does that mean DS does not work on extra shurikens from dex? Becasue with that high dex and DS i should've seen more then 4 rolls in period of 1h...
Can u please check if DS chance only works for initial throw?
Also, how does it work for repeaters? Can repeater get 6 projectiles on 1 mouse click?
Thank you!

[Coyopa]

I spent a long time testing throwing aditional projectiles(shurikens) on dummy. I have 70 dex and 35% DS. I checked combat log for rolls after each mouse click(throw). Most I've seen were 4 projectiles. So does that mean DS does not work on extra shurikens from dex? Becasue with that high dex and DS i should've seen more then 4 rolls in period of 1h...
Can u please check if DS chance only works for initial throw?
Also, how does it work for repeaters? Can repeater get 6 projectiles on 1 mouse click?
Thank you!

If you've got Shuriken Expertise, based on my reading of the feat's description, you only get a chance to throw one extra shuriken per attack. So, you've got a 70% chance to throw two shurikens. I don't believe Shuriken Expertise is like 10k Stars where you can get more than 2 shurikens thrown per attack if your wisdom is high enough. I know I'm seeing the number of three and four shurikens thrown by my thrower that I would expect based on his doubleshot chance (they're both quite rare for me right now since I have only 3% doubleshot). From what I've observed, your doubleshot is applied to every shuriken thrown where the throw wasn't caused by doubleshot.

When it comes to repeaters, they are supposed to (and, as of tomorrow, will) have a reduced chance for extra shots. The calculation will be (and was always supposed to be) your doubleshot chance divided by three. So, with 35% doubleshot, each bolt fired from a repeating crossbow would have an 11% chance to fire a second bolt. Until now, each bolt was getting the full 35% chance and this (as I understand it) will be fixed as of the patch tomorrow.

[Weemadarthur]

If you've got Shuriken Expertise, based on my reading of the feat's description, you only get a chance to throw one extra shuriken per attack. So, you've got a 70% chance to throw two shurikens. I don't believe Shuriken Expertise is like 10k Stars where you can get more than 2 shurikens thrown per attack if your wisdom is high enough. I know I'm seeing the number of three and four shurikens thrown by my thrower that I would expect based on his doubleshot chance (they're both quite rare for me right now since I have only 3% doubleshot). From what I've observed, your doubleshot is applied to every shuriken thrown where the throw wasn't caused by doubleshot.

When it comes to repeaters, they are supposed to (and, as of tomorrow, will) have a reduced chance for extra shots. The calculation will be (and was always supposed to be) your doubleshot chance divided by three. So, with 35% doubleshot, each bolt fired from a repeating crossbow would have an 11% chance to fire a second bolt. Until now, each bolt was getting the full 35% chance and this (as I understand it) will be fixed as of the patch tomorrow.

Just to clarify something here if you are seeing 1-4 shuriken hits each throw do you have the monk enhancement that also gives a % chance based on dex to throw an extra star?
If so you would see 1-6 depending on doubleshot if its working on all shuriken but still see 1-4 if it only works on the 1st star thrown.

[Coyopa]

Just to clarify something here if you are seeing 1-4 shuriken hits each throw do you have the monk enhancement that also gives a % chance based on dex to throw an extra star?
If so you would see 1-6 depending on doubleshot if its working on all shuriken but still see 1-4 if it only works on the 1st star thrown.

I do not have the monk enhancement. In fact, my thrower has no monk levels. Currently, it's level 9 as 5 ranger/3 bard/1 artificer and will end up at level 20 as 12 ranger/7 bard/1 artificer. The artificer level is for trap skills, gives me the bonus of being able to summon the dog for lever pulling when I need, and gives me access to wands and scrolls I wouldn't otherwise have (repair wands useful in healing warforged hires). Bard gives me swashbuckling with a 30% doubleshoot action boost, Dashing Scoundrel swashbuckling style (10% doubleshot), uncanny dodge, additional dodge and doubleshot bonuses from 3rd and 6th level cores, and access to 3rd level bard spells. Ranger gives me Improved Weapon Finesse (dexterity to damage without having to be halfling), 20% doubleshot from tier 5, expanded sneak attack and point blank shot ranges (I'm more interested in the PBS range, obviously, though I do get a few SA dice from DWS cores), and most of the ranged feats I'm going to want for free. If they fix the 12th level DWS core, then I get expanded crit range from that (or from Swashbuckler, which is also broken for thrown weapons). So, I'm only expecting to see up to 4 stars since I have no monk levels.

[jalont]

I cant believe this hasn't even gone live and your crying.
what is up with this minority of people posting on this forum crying to nerf everything all the time.
Do you not want to play a class properly?
And yes I think this is a great idea for a PURE class. this gives the incentive of going pure over splash.
If you guys keep on crying like babies to the devs for nerf nerf and wait for it.... NERF your going to end up killing this game and resulting in this being unplayable.
everyone leaving and no community.
Pure monk is wayyyyy behind everything at the moment.
no prr no mrr, handwraps broken, qp nerfed. the only thing they are good for is either a splash or cannon fodder in a quest.
my monk will hit 60 wiz at lvl 28. yes that's 60 and yes I will use 10k stars and have some fun on this class for a change.
#rollingonmymonk
enjoy :)
p.s. I may even give you a monk buff :P

That's just silly. You have it backwards. Games that are easy like DDO do not survive, not the other way around. And you can see it here too. The decline in population follows the decline in challenge. No one is going to leave because they have nowhere to go. DDO is already the easiest MMO on the market. There's nowhere to go to find even less challenge.

[Shoemaker]

You obviously have no clue what Shuriken Expertise does. ... Shuriken Expertise has nothing to do with damage. It has to do with having a chance to throw a second projectile based on your dexterity score.

So... What you're saying is the extra projectile does 0 damage? It's just a visual effect? No? Then it is most certainly about doing more damage.


snip...
TL;DR -- Basically you reinforced my point. Perhaps the reason that it's only Shuriken Expertise is because it was a balancing effect since shuriken has the lowest damage die at 1d2? So, you want to have the same effect available for your 1d4 (already double base) darts, throwing hammers, and throwing daggers and for your 1d6 (already triple base) throwing axes? Yeah... Good luck convincing the developers of that pal... :rolleyes:

[Coyopa]

So... What you're saying is the extra projectile does 0 damage? It's just a visual effect? No? Then it is most certainly about doing more damage.


TL;DR -- Basically you reinforced my point. Perhaps the reason that it's only Shuriken Expertise is because it was a balancing effect since shuriken has the lowest damage die at 1d2? So, you want to have the same effect available for your 1d4 (already double base) darts, throwing hammers, and throwing daggers and for your 1d6 (already triple base) throwing axes? Yeah... Good luck convincing the developers of that pal... :rolleyes:

Come up with something better then with the goal making throwing builds (shuriken and others) more competitive.

[Saekee]

shurikens get the added bonus of the monk level 3 core which duplicates shuriken expertise.
Changing the feat to throwing expertise would make bard swash throwers more competitive although with the 10K change, IDK (stopped following things).

[jakeelala]

Throwing expertise would do nothing for shurikens. It would make it possible for other Throwing weapons that aren't shurikens to be worth making builds around.

Currently throwing a Shuriken works like this:

1. You main hand throw animation is 1 Shuriken
2. Shuriken Expertise: this is a % based chance to throw a second (or additional, order doesn't matter) shuriken. It crits and procs independently and is it's own completely different missile
3. 2nd Core ability of Ninja Spy, Advanced Ninja Training is exactly the same as Shuriken Expertise, but a separate ability so it offers the chance for a 3rd independent missile. It requires 3 monk levels.
4. Doubleshot is an independent check from all of the listed above checks that is a % based chance (based on Doubleshot, not Dexterity) to throw a 4th shuriken projectile.

Additionally, if you have 6+ Monk levels, you can use Ten Thousand Stars.

Previously, 10k stars gave you extra missiles per throw (totally separate from the above 4) based on your Wisdom. With sufficiently high enough Wisdom, you could throw up to 3 extra projectiles with 10k, but the third extra from 10k was very rare without a Wisdom above 60 or 70. However, back when 10k could give you up to 3 Stars, it blocked Doubleshot. That means before these changes to 10k, you could throw up to 6 stars at once, though it was very rare, and much more likely to be 5.

With these newest changes to 10k, you can:
-Throw you main hand star
-Throw an extra star from Shuriken Expertise
-Throw an extra star from Advanced Ninja Training
-Throw 1 star from Doubleshot if it's 99% and under
-Possibly throw a 5th star if your Doubleshot is over over 100%.

It is no longer possible to get 6 stars with the new 10k*, but it does provide 60-100 RP (30-50 Wisdom range, 99% of characters will fall in this range). So if you're Wisdom is 40 or Over, your damage with the new 10k should be inline or even exceeding the old 10k, depending on build, %proc chances, and other sources of on proc and physical damage, including Sneak Attack damage.

Overall, you will have Shuriken that hit and crit harder, but slightly fewer of them over time, somewhat reducing your non-Ranged Power scaling on hit and %proc chance damage sources.

*This is assuming no one has a way to get over 200% Doubleshot with 10k at this point in time. You can certainly get close:
20 Monk 10k: 100%
AA Capstone: 20%
Epic Feat: 10%
Killer: 20%
Divine Crusader: 10% (Enh. non-stacking with equipment)
Primal PLs: 9%
---------------
169%. Potentially this could be 172% with Elven Grace Racial Enhancement. But until you can get over 200% Doubleshot, you won't be able to have a 6th Projectile.

[Firewall]

None of this matters to the balance of 10k. Concentration is one of the of most common skills. It's not hard to maximize. Moreover, your max concentration is of little consequence. You regenin'g Ki is what matters.

If you ever played a build with 10k stars you know that your concentration value is the amount of Ki you start with when entering a dungeon as well as the amount of Ki where your Ki regeneration rate drops by 1 if you reach it so it has a high and direct influence on Ki passive Ki regeneration and thus if far from being "of little consequence". With monks having few Skillpoints already it is quite an investment to max it and of course it is needed to max if you want to use 10k reliably.




It's not a nerf. You were benefiting from a known bug. It was not WAI. You cannot claim that as something you should have made up to you. YOu enjoyed a bug while it lasted, it's going away now.
Nerf or bug. This has been in place for ages and all on-crit effects in every content were balanced for it. This is also true for Sting of the Ninja.




Ranger or Rogue splits only have 10-20% more Doubleshot than pure monks, with 10% Epic, 9% Epic PL, and 8%-10% Enchantment bonus all coming form sources independent from Class splits. 29% fulltime vs 39 or even 49% of a rogue or ranger split is not equivalent to the 5% per level that Monks would receive. Again, I've stated that 14 or 15 Monk with 5 Rogue or Ranger levels will be ahead, but all that means you can only have a thrower with 14-20 Monk levels.
What you don't mention is that DWS has 20% standing Doubleshot and also up to 20% Doubleshot bonus from Killer. Also it gives higher SA dice and higher base damage through Heavy Draw, Favored Enemies etc. so it benefits already much more from ranged power. Also it has Improved Archers focus for additional ranged power vs. bosses and single targets and also a ranged power boost. Also there are many active attacks that boost the damage and crits further making more than up to the only 5% improved crit range from the monk capstone (Leg Shot, Head Shot, Merciful Shot,...).

Mechanics have only 10% boost to Doubleshot but 20 ranged power and +10% ranged alacrity. They also get more base damage and more SA dice to benefit more from ranged power. As well as ranger splashes they have additional attacks that boost the damage further.

Monk enhancement trees have none of those. No active attacks, no ranged power, no Doubleshot bonuses. They only have extended crit range which is now significantly diminished and Sting of the Ninja which is much weaker because of the lesser crit range.

Your proposal would make rogue and ranger splashes have more Doubleshot AND more SA dice boosted by ranged power AND higher SA range AND more base damage boosted by ranged power AND more active attacks while still having almost equal ranged power to monks (or even more with Improved Archers Focus) due to the fact that their trees already offer ranged power.

Noone needs a DPS test to see what this means.



And by the way, lets look at Wisdom scores:

Starting 16
Tome 6
Globe 1
Profane 2
Insight 4
Enchantment 12
Completionist 2
--------------------------
43 Before any monk stances. And thats with a +6 Tome and Visions of Precision (a raid item). Globes and Epic Litany and Completionist as well. If this is your definition of easy to do, I'm glad you're not developing balance for this game. These are rare and difficult to obtain items. And they represent the only way to get Wisdom without sacrificing Dexterity, which is more important.


You forgot +2 from ship buffs and up to +4 from Water Stance. In WIS based Epic Destinies like Divine Crusader you get 6 more. Also in real quest environments you can often benefit from +2 WIS from Inspire Excellence. There are still many stacking pots, +7 tomes etc to boost that even further for high end players so even for a standard player it was always easy to get more than 42 WIS during a quest. Considering Vision of Precision i indeed think it is easy to acquire. The drop rates are good even on Epic Normal (i got all 4 named items for my build in 12 runs on EN) and most builds don't need it (or already have it by now) so it is almost always up for roll. Considering that the raid is done within 20 minutes and quite easy on EN and you have it guaranteed on your 20th run it is not hard to get.

[jakeelala]

If you ever played a build with 10k stars you know that your concentration value is the amount of Ki you start with when entering a dungeon as well as the amount of Ki where your Ki regeneration rate drops by 1 if you reach it so it has a high and direct influence on Ki passive Ki regeneration and thus if far from being "of little consequence". With monks having few Skillpoints already it is quite an investment to max it and of course it is needed to max if you want to use 10k reliably.
I have many builds with 10k on these forums. I am as familiar with how concentration works as you are. It is not hard to have high concentration values as a monk. This is a meaningless argument.



Nerf or bug. This has been in place for ages and all on-crit effects in every content were balanced for it. This is also true for Sting of the Ninja.
Dev quote to back this up please. I'd like to see what evidence you have that devs balanced Sting of the Ninja on broken crit threat stacking. Let alone all on crit effects. Have you seen Dev quotes on DPS testing? They seemed to have no idea about most of this stuff until right before they fix it.



What you don't mention is that DWS has 20% standing Doubleshot and also up to 20% Doubleshot bonus from Killer. Also it gives higher SA dice and higher base damage through Heavy Draw, Favored Enemies etc. so it benefits already much more from ranged power. Also it has Improved Archers focus for additional ranged power vs. bosses and single targets and also a ranged power boost. Also there are many active attacks that boost the damage and crits further making more than up to the only 5% improved crit range from the monk capstone (Leg Shot, Head Shot, Merciful Shot,...).
I explicitly mentioned it. I said those splashes have 10-20% higher Doubleshot full time. That is literally exactly what I wrote. What are you talking about? Killer does not count. It is both temporary, and useless on single targets where you need it most and Mortal Fear can't proc. It's a perk, but not overly crucial. Activated attacks are in fact excellent from Deep Wood Sniper. In my own testing, they make a huge difference in DPS. What you are not making clear is that you either get DWS or Mechanics best abilities, not both at the same time. You can't get Doubleshot from both, you can't get Imp AF and and +5 Damage with bows. Best case you could get 10RP from Fletching and Go T5 DWS. I do think Multiclasses are better and more damage than Pure Monks, I've been saying it for 2 years, not because I want it to be true, but because it objectively is true.



Mechanics have only 10% boost to Doubleshot but 20 ranged power and +10% ranged alacrity. They also get more base damage and more SA dice to benefit more from ranged power. As well as ranger splashes they have additional attacks that boost the damage further.
This is accurate. Its the trade-off for not having +2 to Crit Threat range.



Monk enhancement trees have none of those. No active attacks, no ranged power, no Doubleshot bonuses. They only have extended crit range which is now significantly diminished and Sting of the Ninja which is much weaker because of the lesser crit range.
It's true. Monk trees, with the exception of Ninja Spy capstone, are objectively terrible for Throwers. It's why you shouldn't go pure class on a monk.



Your proposal would make rogue and ranger splashes have more Doubleshot AND more SA dice boosted by ranged power AND higher SA range AND more base damage boosted by ranged power AND more active attacks while still having almost equal ranged power to monks (or even more with Improved Archers Focus) due to the fact that their trees already offer ranged power.
Monks need Ranged power more than they need a small incremental increase to Doubleshot. Monks have lower Ranged Power, which means 10k giving more RP than Doubleshot, especially when they are already throwing 2.5 stars per animation on average, is actually far better for Monks, and less attractive to already powerful (higher RP and Doubleshot) splits. You're shooting yourself in the foot making this argument against me, but you don't realize it. Changing the formula to match the one I am suggesting is actually BETTER for pure class Monks, but not in a way that makes it BETTER for multiclass throwers.



You forgot +2 from ship buffs and up to +4 from Water Stance. In WIS based Epic Destinies like Divine Crusader you get 6 more. Also in real quest environments you can often benefit from +2 WIS from Inspire Excellence. There are still many stacking pots, +7 tomes etc to boost that even further for high end players so even for a standard player it was always easy to get more than 42 WIS during a quest.
I didn't forget it, I was trying to guess at a single standard deviation value for most players who might try this. I dont even have +7 Tomes and I've been playing for 10 years and have basically everything in this game. Counting a Bard buff on a Monk character is preposterous for a general ballpark calculation and not an ultimate buffed idealized value.



Considering Vision of Precision i indeed think it is easy to acquire. The drop rates are good even on Epic Normal (i got all 4 named items for my build in 12 runs on EN) and most builds don't need it (or already have it by now) so it is almost always up for roll. Considering that the raid is done within 20 minutes and quite easy on EN and you have it guaranteed on your 20th run it is not hard to get.
Well I disagree. Most people do not have them. Your experience does not extrapolate to everyone nor should it dictate how the game is balanced or programmed. I haven't seen anyone put up an LFM for the raid in over a Month on Khyber.

The formula for 10k should change, it would be better for Pure Monks who need the RP more than they need the Doubleshot (and it's not a huge difference, it's barely a moderate difference), and it would make not taking 10k on a thrower build less of a black and white decision preserving build diversity, in light of already having higher Doubleshot and Ranged Power. More specifically, having less than 14 Monk levels would still be viable, which opens up more interesting splits.

The thing that you should be railing against is the change to Crit Threat, because that is the single biggest hit to a pure 20 monk thrower of all the changes being proposed. These changes bring Monk throwers back around to where they should be, which is that pure 20 Monks in Ninja Spy are supposed to be like rangers: hybrid Short sword Melee and 10k off of cooldown. It's basically a flavor of the Ranger archetype with some sneaky rogue like elements added. Multiclass throwers should represent a way to be full time ranged combatants, and better at it.

[Firewall]

Actually i'm tired of this discussion. You are contradicting yourself:


(...)At 20 Monk with 42+ Wisdom, it far exceeds it, due to how often it's up (50% of the time). Really Devs? One ability is going to grant that much power but only to a pure class?
(...)
My consideration is regarding it's potential use by throwing builds with Shuriken. Not all thrower builds should require 20 Monk levels to be competitive.(...)

So first in your OP you are complaining that with the changes to 10k all thrower builds will require 20 monk levels to be competitive and the power is only granted to a pure class and because of this the Devs should change it to yours and:


Changing the formula to match the one I am suggesting is actually BETTER for pure class Monks, but not in a way that makes it BETTER for multiclass throwers.
(...)
I do think Multiclasses are better and more damage than Pure Monks, I've been saying it for 2 years, not because I want it to be true, but because it objectively is true.

The formula for 10k should change, it would be better for Pure Monks who need the RP more than they need the Doubleshot (and it's not a huge difference, it's barely a moderate difference)(...)

now you state that your change would make 20 monks even better and they need it because Multiclasses have been better for years? Come on.



The thing that you should be railing against is the change to Crit Threat, because that is the single biggest hit to a pure 20 monk thrower of all the changes being proposed. These changes bring Monk throwers back around to where they should be, which is that pure 20 Monks in Ninja Spy are supposed to be like rangers: hybrid Short sword Melee and 10k off of cooldown. It's basically a flavor of the Ranger archetype with some sneaky rogue like elements added. Multiclass throwers should represent a way to be full time ranged combatants, and better at it.

I'm glad that with your view of things you are not the one responsible for balancing the game then. We will see what the Devs think about this when the monk pass has been done. The ranger pass and the crit nerfs favor multiclass builds now but not before.

I think my above posts show clearly that 10k stars is not overpowered at all and that it is far from giving power only to pure monk builds but in fact favors multiclass builds even more due to their inherent bonuses in enhancement trees and thus your thread title is not valid.

[jakeelala]

I will try to clarify my stance for you and anyone else:

The way the new 10k is designed, it places too much emphasis on Monk levels for Doubleshot, and none for the Ranged Power component.

Monk throwers really are sorely in need of Ranged Power more so than Doubleshot, since they already throw a lot of stars from Dex. They would benefit more if Monk level tied to Ranged Power, instead of Doubleshot. Incrementally, the Ranged Power will do more for them.

Moreover, non 20 Monk, I have more Ranged Power and more Doubleshot than a Monk, so unless 10k provided lots of both, I can ignore it. It now provides lots of both.

It just means that it's not very reasonable to make a thrower without 10k now, and that 20 Monks on a separate level are still very inferior to good splits, and this isn't helping them enough.

[J-mann]

You obviously have no clue what Shuriken Expertise does. Here, let me help you: http://ddowiki.com/page/Shuriken_Expertise . There. All better now? Shuriken Expertise has nothing to do with damage. It has to do with having a chance to throw a second projectile based on your dexterity score. Throwing builds rely more heavily on rate of fire to be competitive because their weapons typically do less damage than even a bow does. So, by changing Shuriken Expertise to be Throwing Expertise, then you make it possible for people using throwing weapons that are not shurikens to achieve a rate of fire that makes those other weapons competitive with using shurikens. I'm galled that you're on the Players Council and didn't even bother to do a modicum of learning before responding to my post. As far as the change I'm advocating, they could even make it a multi-selector so that instead of Throwing Expertise being a single feat letting you get an extra projectile no matter what throwing weapon you're using, they could set it up similar to Improved Critical such that you'd have choices like this:

* Throwing Expertise: Throwing Dagger
* Throwing Expertise: Throwing Hammer
* Throwing Expertise: Throwing Axe
* Throwing Expertise: Dart
* Throwing Expertise: Shuriken

That would make people who want to play a throwing build choose which weapon (or weapons, since they shouldn't be mutually exclusive) they want to focus on. Honestly, if it were set up this way, I would have selected axes and hammers because that's what I really wanted anyway. However, since shuriken throwers can achieve a much higher rate of fire, it makes choosing anything else pointless. Since you aren't familiar with how throwing weapons work, let me educate you a bit further so you fully understand why this change is important.

Let's say we've got a character with 50 dexterity, 35% doubleshot, and a 30% doubleshot action boost. (These are achievable numbers and I don't even have a completionist.) Now, with Shuriken Expertise and using shurikens, this character has a 50% chance to throw another shuriken on every attack. Doubleshot is calculated for each shuriken thrown indepedently. This means that every time this character makes a throwing attack with a shuriken, they have the potential to actually throw four shurikens at once: 2 based on their dexterity, and then another 1 for each of those 2 based on their doubleshot. Now, if that character switches to any other thrown weapon, they have only a 35% chance to throw two projectiles, which can be boosted to 65% for up to about three or four minutes (depending on class split, destiny, twists of fate, and so on). And if you think I'm wrong about the way Shuriken Expertise and doubleshot stack, you should think again. I'm currently running a thrower build and I've seen where I have gotten three or four projectiles thrown. Granted, four is rare since my doubleshot is only 3% right now. However, soon that character will have an unbuffed doubleshot of 33%, boostable to 63%, and his dexterity at level 9 is already around 28. I can see the difference in how much slower my rate of fire is when I switch to a hammer (for skeletons) as compared to when I'm using a shuriken. The only saving grace for the hammer is that skeletons take full damage from that since it's a blunt weapon.

Double strike ONLY procs on the main throw, additionally my testing indicates that Shidari abilities only proc on the main throw or the doublestrike, I tested with ZERO double strike and never saw more than one shidari proc on a throw. Further, I am not certain that on hit chance of a proc abilities can proc on the extra throws, though this one is much more difficult to test for as you cannot see what procced the ability, unlike shidari damage. If what I am seeing is correct, no wonder shidari is a terrible destiny for throwers when it should in fact be a great one (and I am 90 plus percent certain that it is not procing on the additional throws and I am fairly certain that it used to at some point, but its been a VERY long time since ive done shidari, before armor up even).

[hunzi2010]

That's just silly. You have it backwards. Games that are easy like DDO do not survive, not the other way around. And you can see it here too. The decline in population follows the decline in challenge. No one is going to leave because they have nowhere to go. DDO is already the easiest MMO on the market. There's nowhere to go to find even less challenge.

Sorry no I don't have anything backwards, read properly its called sarcasm... and yes the population is already depleting, a lot of my friends have already found other games and canceled their vip subscription.
they are also pushing me to do the same.
Unfortunately (Sev & Cordo please read this) I love this game, and I cant find anything else out there that has the same mouse and keyboard movements. (except for lotro) but none of my friends really play that game.
so I am here. and I want to support the game as much as I can, a lot of you know I have invested around 7k in this game over the past 5 years. yes I pay to win... don't judge me :P +6 tomes on all toons and boxes arnt cheap.....
yep that's right, I don't have much of a life outside of work, but let me tell you drinking is more expensive :P
but if this game has less and less lfm's like it is starting to show then I may also need to look at options of other forms of gaming entertainment.
Not that I want to, but I don't like to solo. I love chatting to people and having a laugh. its a bit hard to do that if nobody is on :(

[Hephaistor]

At 20 Monk with 42+ Wisdom, it far exceeds it, due to how often it's up (50% of the time). Really Devs? One ability is going to grant that much power but only to a pure class?




It's true. Monk trees, with the exception of Ninja Spy capstone, are objectively terrible for Throwers. It's why you shouldn't go pure class on a monk.


So what exactly is your point? It’s a bad thing that the new 10k stars gets better with more monk levels BECAUSE the monk trees don’t offer much for throwers? You advise against pure monk thrower builds and the DEVS should change their pass so your advice keeps its point?

A better 10k stars from more/full monk levels OR more power from splashing seems to be a good thing to me. And I still like the idea that 10k stars could be a situational useful feat for pure melee monks too.



I will try to clarify my stance for you and anyone else.. - headline: New 10k Stars is too powerful
Is think we all exactly understood what your "stance" was when you made this threat. Perhaps you start with: "Let's disscuss the new 10k stars" next time and stay open for arguments and other points of few?

[Strider1963]

#Imstill****edaboutmanyshotchanges :(

So am I, after all, who doesn't wanna be a Legolas?... Manyshot has been this way forever, why nerf now? Even with 4 arrows, it was far inferior to an Artys ranged damage (not even counting runearm, spells, and doggie).

[stricek]

If you've got Shuriken Expertise, based on my reading of the feat's description, you only get a chance to throw one extra shuriken per attack. So, you've got a 70% chance to throw two shurikens. I don't believe Shuriken Expertise is like 10k Stars where you can get more than 2 shurikens thrown per attack if your wisdom is high enough. I know I'm seeing the number of three and four shurikens thrown by my thrower that I would expect based on his doubleshot chance (they're both quite rare for me right now since I have only 3% doubleshot). From what I've observed, your doubleshot is applied to every shuriken thrown where the throw wasn't caused by doubleshot.

When it comes to repeaters, they are supposed to (and, as of tomorrow, will) have a reduced chance for extra shots. The calculation will be (and was always supposed to be) your doubleshot chance divided by three. So, with 35% doubleshot, each bolt fired from a repeating crossbow would have an 11% chance to fire a second bolt. Until now, each bolt was getting the full 35% chance and this (as I understand it) will be fixed as of the patch tomorrow.

Here are my facts:
2 feats that cause extra shuriken throw
35% DS from EPLs, Enhancments, gear...
70dex

Why cant i get more then 4 shurikens?
I am under the asumption that if DS happens each of those 2 shurikens would have 70% chance(from dex) to throw an additional shuriken...
But then again you and I can only asume how it works. I would like devs' official statement about this.
Cause if 4 is max then repeaters have better chance to shot more projectiles...and since they do far more damage per projectile it doesnt make sense!