Is the heavy armor warlock tank build about to be nerfed out of the game?

[elvesunited]

I've read that some warlock eldritch abilities may soon be under the influence of Arcane Spell Failure when they weren't before.
That it ever not being this way was a bug.

I always assumed that Special abilities didn't have that check. Only Spells that weren't divine or verbal only. My warlock tank with heavy armor and tower shield was built around that concept. If they enable ASF for eldritch abilities it will cripple this build and all the heavy armor and tower shields he has collected will become useless. The entire point of multi-classing into fighter will be lost.

Anyone heard anything on this?

[slarden]

Truthfully you can do fine with medium armor - I get by fine with 129 PRR - no shield feats or shield at all.

The con-based tank builds were running at 80% of the dps of a dps-focused warlock. If they switch to Souleater Tier 5 and enlightened spirit they capstone they will maybe lose 5% dps total vs what they have now. Eldritch wave has been much better than spirit blast since the last update (about double damage and the prior issues have been fixed). Losing 30% crits from tainted scholar is about a 9% dps loss with max empyrean magic stacks. The souleater SLAs and eldritch wave is a net dps gain.

So not impacted much unless you depended on shining through to survive.

Bottom line - learn to love eldritch wave - learn to survive without shining through and you are fine.

[elvesunited]

I don't really want to break the tank concept by switching to a DPS concentrated soul eater. Plus I like having the free hands.
( Glad to hear that Soul Eater tree is doing better )

I was more thinking that if forced off tower shield and the balance pass about to nerf heavy armor then the major point of not going pure is lost.

Drop Fighter level and go pure 20 Warlock
Give up 3 AP in purple dragon knight. ( charisma for damage and to hit / plus skill boost )
Apply 3 AP to Enlightened for Enlightened capstone and Medium armor prof.
Get a large shield and a +15 spell agility augment
highest AC medium armor I can find

I'll gain some damage dice, light spellpower, universal spell power, hp and MRR
But lose PRR and AC.

The roughest part would be being unable to use the heavy armor and tower shields I got for him.
Epic Large Shields just don't hold up to Epic Tower Shields like Purple Dragon Shield

[slarden]

The devs didn't say fixing the arcane spell failure bug was part of their plan. They also didn't indicate that tower shield proficiency was needed to get the benefit from tower shields going forward.

So if you take shield proficiency, shield mastery and improved shield mastery you can still get 45 PRR and 15 MRR fom ee skyvault shield. And if the arcane spell failure bug is fixed, the ee skyvault tower shield has no arcane spell failure associated with it.

Heavy armor will require 2 feats for 1 if bladeforged/warforged since proficiency is required to get the benefits now.

- Mike

[FranOhmsford]

The Devs seem to want Enlightened Spirit Warlocks to be pure melee with Aura up permanently.

The Nerfs to Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast will make these Enhancements completely pointless - Somebody said yesterday that on Lama these are doing less damage than the standard Aura {Uh?}.

So ES is going to be for Multiclassed Warlockadins only. Full Heavy Armour, Quick attacks probably through Vanguard and Aura up at all times. {Or there's the possibility of Evasion build Swashbucklers or Tempests with Aura up}.


A Pure Warlock ES is going to be a complete waste of time in EEs as Shining Through won't compensate for the lack of ANY PRR!


This Nerf is basically confining ES to a secondary tree for Warlocks and a Multiclass tree {Not sure if Shining Through will be worth taking over say Paladin, Swash or Tempest Tier 5s!}.


I still don't understand why the Devs decided to nerf Warlock DPS {A Warlock is a DPS toon!} rather than the REAL PROBLEM - Shining Through!
This actually kills Shining Through for me in Epics because with the DPS I have at the moment I'm still dying a lot - Mobs get to me too quickly - and less DPS = My Warlock like all my other characters will no longer even be able to step into EEs!
Yet does absolutely NOTHING to the OPness of Warlocks in High Level Heroics - Heroic Mobs won't get through Shining Through so a little less DPS is no issue!


P.S. I tried to run a Level 18 Bladeforged Greatsword Paladin through Archons Trial Heroic Elite the other day on Wayfinder so no Shipbuffs {well I did complete with one Spirit Cake and 8 total deaths!} and it was a nightmare!
That Paladin would NOT get through Demon Assault or Devil's Details! {Lvl 18 in Lvl 15 Quests!}.
And that's BEFORE Paladin nerfs!

[slarden]

A Pure Warlock ES is going to be a complete waste of time in EEs as Shining Through won't compensate for the lack of ANY PRR!

This Nerf is basically confining ES to a secondary tree for Warlocks and a Multiclass tree {Not sure if Shining Through will be worth taking over say Paladin, Swash or Tempest Tier 5s!}.


I still don't understand why the Devs decided to nerf Warlock DPS {A Warlock is a DPS toon!} rather than the REAL PROBLEM - Shining Through!

Prior to this change Warlock is in a large group of "A" builds along with paladin, barbarian, swashbuckler, mechanic and tempest. After the nerf they probably drop out of the "A" group to a B or B+, but they should still be able to solo EE.

More modest 5% dps cuts would have made more sense than what they actually did, but you can sitll get decent dps with eldritch wave in the rotation instead of spirit blast.

[FranOhmsford]

Prior to this change Warlock is in a large group of "A" builds along with paladin, barbarian, swashbuckler, mechanic and tempest. After the nerf they probably drop out of the "A" group to a B or B+, but they should still be able to solo EE.

More modest 5% dps cuts would have made more sense than what they actually did, but you can sitll get decent dps with eldritch wave in the rotation instead of spirit blast.

Eldritch Wave = No Shining Through!

So lose half or more of your HP for a little extra DPS?

Warlocks are pretty squishy in EEs anyway - It may be all fine and dandy for players who've got every last bit of gear and all past lives, destinies etc. but the Devs have made a big mistake in nerfing DPS rather than Shining Through.

Heck if the Devs had removed Shining Through entirely and left Warlock DPS as it is I'd have had no complaints {Removing ST would be over the top but OK.} but it's far too valuable to voluntarily skip it {Especially with such a large loss of DPS}.


I'm actually starting to wonder about ES in Epics for myself anyway {2nd Life, No Gear, No E-TRs, Still a bunch of Destinies to do} as I don't have the defenses to stand in the middle of mobs with Aura and find myself back to mainly using Chain and trying desperately to stay away from mobs in EEs.

And that's with ES as it is now BEFORE the coming Nerf!

P.S. The Only other Character I've got who's even close to being capable of running EEs is a Pure Lvl 28 1st Life Monk with 3 E-TRs and all Destinies maxed and in GMoF {And he can't solo EE Unquiet Graves!}.
So My Warlock is STILL my best character for Epics atm.

[elvesunited]

The devs didn't say fixing the arcane spell failure bug was part of their plan. They also didn't indicate that tower shield proficiency was needed to get the benefit from tower shields going forward.

So if you take shield proficiency, shield mastery and improved shield mastery you can still get 45 PRR and 15 MRR fom ee skyvault shield. And if the arcane spell failure bug is fixed, the ee skyvault tower shield has no arcane spell failure associated with it.

Heavy armor will require 2 feats for 1 if bladeforged/warforged since proficiency is required to get the benefits now.
- Mike

Didn't know about the skyvault shield no spell failure ability. Thanks.
Though I'd probably take the tower shield prof just to avoid the penalty.

While not part of the balance pass, the Spell Failure for warlock eldritch attacks is listed as a known bug which means they could theoritically release it at any time. ( though some "bugs" have remained on that list for a long time )

[Lonnbeimnech]

Didn't know about the skyvault shield no spell failure ability. Thanks.
Though I'd probably take the tower shield prof just to avoid the penalty.

While not part of the balance pass, the Spell Failure for warlock eldritch attacks is listed as a known bug which means they could theoritically release it at any time. ( though some "bugs" have remained on that list for a long time )

Master's touch.

[Jetrule]

Didn't know about the skyvault shield no spell failure ability. Thanks.
Though I'd probably take the tower shield prof just to avoid the penalty.

While not part of the balance pass, the Spell Failure for warlock eldritch attacks is listed as a known bug which means they could theoritically release it at any time. ( though some "bugs" have remained on that list for a long time )

Masters touch scrolls are available in the portable hole. The tower shield and shield mastery improved shield mastery and the Unyielding sentinel's legendary shield mastery twisted in make for some powerful defence that isn't listed to be nerfed. I think 55 total prr and 40 mrr. The enlightened spirits cleave blast sla's being nerfed are the issue I am most concerned about. Apparently the standard aura blasts were doing more damage than empowered and maximizes specials on Lamania?? I hope this is not the case it must surely be a bug if so right? You could still be very hard to kill turtled up and shield blocking occasionally refreshing shining through or healing. But the eldritch burst and spirit blast are bread and butter for the tanklock. They would have issues being able to hold aggro boss tanking without it.. My halfling warlock tank/dragon mark healer already struggles to find enough threat when tanking. Of course I am generally trying to tank big groups of monsters where intimidate won't work.

[slarden]

Eldritch Wave = No Shining Through!

So lose half or more of your HP for a little extra DPS?

Warlocks are pretty squishy in EEs anyway - It may be all fine and dandy for players who've got every last bit of gear and all past lives, destinies etc. but the Devs have made a big mistake in nerfing DPS rather than Shining Through.

Heck if the Devs had removed Shining Through entirely and left Warlock DPS as it is I'd have had no complaints {Removing ST would be over the top but OK.} but it's far too valuable to voluntarily skip it {Especially with such a large loss of DPS}.


I'm actually starting to wonder about ES in Epics for myself anyway {2nd Life, No Gear, No E-TRs, Still a bunch of Destinies to do} as I don't have the defenses to stand in the middle of mobs with Aura and find myself back to mainly using Chain and trying desperately to stay away from mobs in EEs.

And that's with ES as it is now BEFORE the coming Nerf!

P.S. The Only other Character I've got who's even close to being capable of running EEs is a Pure Lvl 28 1st Life Monk with 3 E-TRs and all Destinies maxed and in GMoF {And he can't solo EE Unquiet Graves!}.
So My Warlock is STILL my best character for Epics atm.

Shining through is over-hyped. I rarely use it. I would gladly give it up if they brought spirit blast and eldritch burst back to 150% spellpower.

[slarden]

Masters touch scrolls are available in the portable hole. The tower shield and shield mastery improved shield mastery and the Unyielding sentinel's legendary shield mastery twisted in make for some powerful defence that isn't listed to be nerfed. I think 55 total prr and 40 mrr. The enlightened spirits cleave blast sla's being nerfed are the issue I am most concerned about. Apparently the standard aura blasts were doing more damage than empowered and maximizes specials on Lamania?? I hope this is not the case it must surely be a bug if so right? You could still be very hard to kill turtled up and shield blocking occasionally refreshing shining through or healing. But the eldritch burst and spirit blast are bread and butter for the tanklock. They would have issues being able to hold aggro boss tanking without it.. My halfling warlock tank/dragon mark healer already struggles to find enough threat when tanking. Of course I am generally trying to tank big groups of monsters where intimidate won't work.

Unless there is something I am missing ee skyvault shield gives 45 PRR and 15 MRR. This is still a huge deal for a warlock. With medium armor, no past lifes and ee skyvault shield you are 135ish PRR and over 100 MRR. While that might tanky, it's enough to survive and even thrive in EE content.

[Pnumbra]

The upcoming nerf will absolutely destroy the ES Warlock build. That wouldn't be a problem if the Warlock was a free class. The problem with the lock could be easily fixed, with minimal code change. Instead, they are gutting the class outright.

Dev's, please reconsider what you are suggesting. Why not just implement the following?

Currently - Eldritch Aura: Stance: While this is active, your Eldritch Blast changes into an aura that deals the same damage as your Eldritch Blast to all foes in range every 5 seconds, and scales with 150% spell power. You cannot fire Eldritch Blasts while in this stance, but may attack normally with weapons and cast spells. Stance cool down: 8 seconds.

Could be changed to;

Eldritch Aura: Stance: While this is active, your Eldritch Blast changes into an aura that deals the same damage as your Eldritch Blast to all foes in range every 5 seconds, and scales with spell power. If you are level 20+ Eldritch Aura scales with 150% spell power. You cannot fire Eldritch Blasts while in this stance, but may attack normally with weapons and cast spells. Stance cool down: 8 seconds.

How difficult is that to do? Copy same format to other powers/SLAs and you fix the OP heroic issues without screwing up the epic warlock. This same approach should have been applied to the previous nerf.


To Other Posters:

As far as armor goes. Heavy is not really needed, at level 25 PRR-121 MRR-98 with a Fort of 200 - with no shield. I know, this is before the nerf.

In addition, TWF will not be a viable option for any class, so I will have to consider reverting back to SWF with Orb. Shield use will be an option for those times I may need to turtle up against hard hitting mobs. Since this doesn't require any feat to do, it is a bonus. My shield of choice is the Shield of Morning (no ASF) or the Purple Dragon Shield if ASF is not an issue at the time.

[elvesunited]

Thanks for the Master's Touch information. I never would have imagined it would work for Tower Shields. I always considered it one of the useless scrolls. That opens up a lot more options.

Taking the balance pass in consideration and that they will apply a fix for the warlock using spell abilities without chance of spell failure "bug". This is how I see my options shaking out:

medium armor pure enlightened spirit warlock:
PPR: +30 ( base attack 20 * 1.5 )
MMR: +15
HP: ( hp + 10 ) * 1.2
+10 universal spell
+20 light spell
+1d6 eldtich die
+1d4 pact die
+10 melee / range power
+2 will save
+2 Charisma
+1 Constitution ( 2 for capstone -1 for needing 2 AP for medium armor enhancement )
Don't have to swap to a buckler shield so I can cast an actual spell.
Better armor selection albeit from medium armors

heavy armor enlightened spirit 18 warlock/level 1 fighter/level 1 barbarian
PPR: +30 (Base Attack 15 * 2 )
MMR: 0
Two more feats ( free fighter feat and one for shield proficiency. Master's touch wont get me Shield Mastery )
+10% move rate
+5 to melee damage ( charisma for damage / purple knight enhancement)
a few extra points of AC
+1% spell critical ( feat starvation costing me one of the mental toughnesses )
+100 spell points
+4 fortitude save
Doesn't cost me a lesser heart of wood +1 to get around the chosen for you iconic starter class.
Heavy Armor will need to be a crafted Greater Twilight with spell agility augment. ( with negative absorption enchantment )

[slarden]

Thanks for the Master's Touch information. I never would have imagined it would work for Tower Shields. I always considered it one of the useless scrolls. That opens up a lot more options.

Taking the balance pass in consideration and that they will apply a fix for the warlock using spell abilities without chance of spell failure "bug". This is how I see my options shaking out:

medium armor pure enlightened spirit warlock:
PPR: +30 ( base attack 20 * 1.5 )
MMR: +15
HP: ( hp + 10 ) * 1.2
+10 universal spell
+20 light spell
+1d6 eldtich die
+1d4 pact die
+10 melee / range power
+2 will save
+2 Charisma
+1 Constitution ( 2 for capstone -1 for needing 2 AP for medium armor enhancement )
Don't have to swap to a buckler shield so I can cast an actual spell.
Better armor selection albeit from medium armors

heavy armor enlightened spirit 18 warlock/level 1 fighter/level 1 barbarian
PPR: +30 (Base Attack 15 * 2 )
MMR: 0
Two more feats ( free fighter feat and one for shield proficiency. Master's touch wont get me Shield Mastery )
+10% move rate
+5 to melee damage ( charisma for damage / purple knight enhancement)
a few extra points of AC
+1% spell critical ( feat starvation costing me one of the mental toughnesses )
+100 spell points
+4 fortitude save
Doesn't cost me a lesser heart of wood +1 to get around the chosen for you iconic starter class.
Heavy Armor will need to be a crafted Greater Twilight with spell agility augment. ( with negative absorption enchantment )

If you have the enlightened spirit capstone your BAB is 28 so you get 42 for medium armor with the new formula. Yeah you will have better PRR with the enlightened spirit capstone than you would with a splash for heavy armor.

Withour enlightened spirit capstone and a splash for heavy armor your BAB is 19 (15 + 4 for epic levels) so you get 38 PRR.

[AtomicMew]

If you have the enlightened spirit capstone your BAB is 28 so you get 42 for medium armor with the new formula. Yeah you will have better PRR with the enlightened spirit capstone than you would with a splash for heavy armor.

Withour enlightened spirit capstone and a splash for heavy armor your BAB is 19 (15 + 4 for epic levels) so you get 38 PRR.


You canalso use extended tenser's without too much penalty, since your blast is unaffected.

[elvesunited]

Well the update is here:

MRR dropped like a rock.
PRR dropped somewhat.
Spirit Blast and Eldritch blast working only half the time. ( all other special abilities fine )
And doing less damage is actually the least of my problems.

From this point forward the only Tower Shield ( goodbye purple dragon shield! ) I'll be able to use without severely hurting this toon's offensive abilities is Skyvault. ( which I don't have one ) I can manage heavy armor through crafting. But what's the point as its been nerfed to the point that medium armor is better anyway? And the fighter splash also became a lot less attractive as well. But I'll either have to limp along with a busted build from 26 to 28 or buy a lesser heart of wood +2.

R.I.P: Heavy Armor Warlock build

Well I guess it's off to blue dragon skyvault hunting for my Monkcher toon. Wait! He's been nerfed too? Dang Nammit!

[slarden]

Here is a quick analysis of my test with 3 different builds. Much to my surprise I found Enlightened Spirit / Tainted Scholar / Splash of Souleater to be the best build of 3 even with the nerfs:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/460700-Pure-Casting-Warlock-DC-Eld-Blast-Build?p=5710879&viewfull=1#post5710879

A few things to consider if you are playing ES casting builds
- Learn to live with and love medium armor - 130 PRR is plenty you just have to be a bit more careful. EE Skyvault Shield is your way to get a boost if you prefer more PRR.
- Spellpower, spellpower, spellpower.
- For the love of God don't go Con-based and give up half your pact damage
- Knockdown immunity has some value

[slarden]

No, you can just cast tensors. Heavy is more PRR, medium is more MRR. Heavy will be weaker crafted armor though.

I find this part of tensor's unacceptable for my build:

Your spellcasting ability is reduced, resulting in a -2 penalty to all spell DCs, -2 to your rolls to bypass enemy Spell Resistance, and doubling the cooldown of your spells.

I really don't have a problem surviving with a 130 PRR. If I needed more I can add 30-45 easily with a shield but it's not worth giving up evard's DC or a twist to me. Going from 132 PRR to 177 only gets me from 57% DR to 64% DR. I find I get a much much better benefit from an effective evard's. Even with Tensor's Heavy armor only gets me 14 more PRR in exchange for a DPS loss though - not worth it unless I have survivability issues.

[LongshotBro]

Warlocks are pretty squishy in EEs anyway - It may be all fine and dandy for players who've got every last bit of gear and all past lives, destinies etc. but the Devs have made a big mistake in nerfing DPS rather than Shining Through.

*snip*

P.S. The Only other Character I've got who's even close to being capable of running EEs is a Pure Lvl 28 1st Life Monk with 3 E-TRs and all Destinies maxed and in GMoF {And he can't solo EE Unquiet Graves!}.
So My Warlock is STILL my best character for Epics atm.

Isn't what you are pointing towards essentially the whole point of developers' attempt to balance the game? So that, for the players who have past lives and destinies, etc. the top-end content is challenging but do-able.

You've practically said it yourself right here: your most capable EE character has several EPLs and all destinies maxed.