Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[Vargouille]

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon1.

Arcane Archer



Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank
DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:

Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.
Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality1 on each hit.

Pull of Reality1: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).



Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)

Increase base damage to 1d8.
Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower


Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):

Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"


Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):

Dexterity bonus increased to +4


Slaying Arrow:

Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)



This accomplishes a few goals:




DC based abilities2 have long been a bane of Arcane Archers. They were often extremely strong when obtained, but had no way at all to scale up towards higher levels, which has only gotten worse over time and higher levels. Reworking these abilities was a key feature we wanted to get to sooner rather than later. This has meant we've wanted to adjust how some of those abilities work as well, and in particular wanted Smiting and Banishing Arrows to feel more impactful on attacks that were not criticals (while not simply adding damage).
Elemental Arrows were simply too weak, and also didn't scale into Epic levels. These changes should make them feel pretty powerful in heroic while also having some good options to scale into Epic. The addition of multiple choice options gives players some meaningful choices on how to progress.
Those two changes, especially focusing on Spell DCs and Spell Power, help with the lore and flavor of Arcane Archer as well. While not strictly necessary for gameplay, we like to support this when we can. It also gives us a means of differentiating Arcane Archer from other potential bow users. We know this isn't a large and fully realized group of build choices, but we certainly want that open as a development path, and hopefully they won't look all that similar when we get there. Fighters focusing on bows should be viable, for instance, and wouldn't be likely to invest heavily in Spell Power or Enchantment DCs.
Some of the other changes are really quality of life, keeping up with the Joneses, and things we can quickly and easily do.


Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is, and we've been discussing some other possibilities with the Player's Council. Those abilities really need a larger redesign - potentially touching on things like a redesign of Dispels across DDO, for instance, which we just don't have time for right now. But some of us having been pushing to get some of this came out sooner rather than later!

This is, of course, a design-in-progress, subject to change from testing, math, deep insights of wisdom, a million kobolds with typewriters, or designers unscrupulously trying to fit a bit more improvement in when they should probably get on with Level 30 work.



Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, and may you always be fighting in the shade!



Footnotes, Vargouille? That's so outdated. Do you think you're in the module years?

1. (TM)

2. I'm going to recommend that when you fight in other planes, some enemy monsters should inflict Pull of Reality on player characters...

3. Developer Trivia: Some of the choices here in particular relate to technical hurdles that we've spent some time investigating working around but are probably not worth (even more) time. If you look carefully across DDO, you may note a relative lack of saving throws on most player abilities which are triggered passively. (Shiradi's Nerve Venom, for instance, was always intended to have a saving throw... it just didn't actually work, so got redesigned some at the last minute!) It's not that it's 100% impossible to do some of this kind of thing, but the amount of extra work is staggering (compared to even moderately simple abilities, can take 20-40 times as long to create). Even getting the saving throws we do have here is a bunch of extra work that doesn't really help anywhere else in the game, but at least applies to four abilities. This is also part of why they all use Enchantment Spell DC bonuses, rather than Terror Arrows using Necro... err, I mean, you are clearly enchanting your arrows in any case. So it's a lore reason! That sounds better, right? And therefore part of the flavor is that Arcane Archers specialize in Enchantment. It all comes together, somehow. (No, we're not going to base monster saves assuming you have 4 levels of Arcane Archer to get better Enchantment DCs... but if some Elf Wizard wants to go for it, well, we love somewhat crazy builds.)


P.S. I probably ramble on too much even when I don't give a Trivia warning. Maybe I shouldn't use that. Maybe I shouldn't post hours after everyone else has gone home and no one can stop me. Bwahahahaha!

[Grailhawk]

Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.

You mean core enhancement? or is this the go to tree for a Enchantment wizard now?

O think I get it now each of Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrow gives +1 so at total of +4?

[EllisDee37]

AA needs some kind of fletching. Any tier is fine, even Tier 5. Even if you don't add the +10 ranged power, though I'd prefer they get it.

Second, please increase the stack size of arrows in inventory. 1000, 500, even 200. It just needs to be (significantly) more than 100. With that plus fletching, AAs could then actually use arrows strategically. We could craft up a bunch of bane arrows and swap around depending on our target, much like how melee could craft a bunch of bane weapons and easily swap as needed.

Note that we simply cannot use quivers as they were intended, which I'm not even sure I can suss out what the actual intent was. They just don't work in the heat of battle. Instead, let us stack our arrows directly in inventory for easy hotbarring, and let us make any arrow 80% returning like mechanics can with their bolts.

In a perfect world, ammunition would be part of weaponset logic, so like I could choose an undead weaponset that would select Silver Slinger and Undead Slaying arrows, for example. Totally fine if it only works on arrows in inventory, not in quivers.

EDIT: If you wanted to add some kind of alternative to fletching, like say arrows never return but when your stack runs out, a new 100 of the same type is conjured for 20 spell points, fine by me. My main issue is that I draw closer to my next life -- pure ranger AA 100% bow user -- I really want ammunition to be a thing. It would be if I were doing a mechanic life. Seems wrong that AA doesn't get similar ranged coolness to a knucklehead with a crossbow.

[MrWindupBird]

Looks interesting. However: why no changes to manyshot and doubleshoot penalty? That needs to happen.

All the additions to doubleshot are meaningless without a change.

[Enoach]

First I'm coming from the perspective of Elf to access AA and not Ranger.

• Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses

I personally enjoy a 12/8 Elf Fighter/Wizard. My primary attribute is Dexterity. While I don't ignore wisdom I'm trying to understand why Dexterity Modifier is not an OR option. To me Dexterity works well especially with Elf and leveraging Grace's Dexterity to Damage.

I understand that wisdom is a recommended attribute for Rangers but most builds only go for enough wisdom to meet spell level which is needing to hit 14.

Also the fact that most Arcane classes are either Intelligence based or Charisma based.

I would like to ask if possible to allow this to be the highest of Wisdom/Dexterity/Intelligence/Charisma.

This would open up more build options for the AA tree as well as remove the advantage a Monk AA build would have over other builds.

I do understand that Wizard AA builds do get an advantage with access to a Spell Focus Feat(s) so that might also need to be considered.

==============================
I like the elemental arrow direction - especially the spell power part, may even consider these with this type of change.

==============================
As pointed out by another poster. Are we going to see a change in the Doubleshot penalty from Manyshot/10K Stars?

[serthcore]

Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):

Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"



18 Levels of Ranger, or elf / high elf i assume?

[Jetrule]

I love the idea of making The d.c.s relevant and the elemental damage scaleable. The cores are a bit of a concern and I wonder if the requirements could be changed to Ranger level or elf, half elf, sun elf character level?

[Enderoc]

Arcane Archer should base their DCs of spell like abilities from intelligence not wisdom if from a non physical stat at all in my opinion. Yes Rangers cast druidic spells...in flavor, but we are talking Arcane here. In fact they should be admitted to Arcane spells, or the ability to cast arcane scrolls as though they were certain levels of Arcane Casters or have spell like abilities.

[Grailhawk]

Looks interesting. However: why no changes to manyshot and doubleshoot penalty? That needs to happen.

All the additions to doubleshot are meaningless without a change.

I agree AA should have a reductions of the manyshot doubleshot penalty.

Devs can you comment on this? Is this a possibility or is it out of the question?

[Tom116]

Overall seems like a good start, but why base the DC of the special arrows on Wisdom? 20 + Wis Mod + Enchantment bonuses simply won't be high enough for epic elite unless you have Wis as your main stat, and even then it wouldn't be the best dc out there. I understand that it's a spammable ability, but to base it on Wisdom...the DC will be almost the same it is on live. If you used Dex mod instead, it would a much more viable form of CC. Assuming a decent dex (say, 50) it would be 20 + 20 + 6 (assuming 2 x SF: Enchant), and 46 isn't really a great DC for EE. It would work since it's applied to every arrow though, so at least it wouldn't be only functional when the mob rolls a 1.

[blerkington]

Hi,

I don't think WIS is a good choice of attribute as the basis for arrow effect DCs. It plays right into the hands of monkchers, yet again, rather than DEX based archers. The bonus from investing in WIS is also too small to be worthwhile as a build option in itself for non monk archers, so the effect will be to reward even further people who are already building for 10k stars while doing much less for anyone else. Additionally, the proposed DC formula looks like it will have a point where the usefulness of special effects will drop off very sharply in harder content, as it does now, but just a bit later on.

Similarly, builds which can achieve a higher RoF (like 10k stars builds) will benefit more from improved arrow effects. So by improving the imbues, you are doing more for those builds. The issue of RoF is the central problem for archers right now, both in that it is very uneven within archery builds, and also in that it compares very unfavourably to other ranged styles (throwers and particularly crossbow users). This was mentioned repeatedly by people during the DWS discussions, and it seems very much like the development team is simply ignoring the issue altogether.

Regarding those earlier discussions, some of us also made the point then that it is difficult to evaluate these changes without knowing what the dev team has in mind for the manyshot-induced doubleshot penalty and what, if anything, is happening to 10k stars. I'd like to suggest again that we be provided with some information sooner rather than later about what those plans are, so we can give you our feedback without half the information we need being missing.

Thanks.

[Mindos]

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon1.

Arcane Archer



Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank
DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:

Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.


This could be very overpowered. Personally, I think this is too much crowd control ability. But it depends on perspective. I also think bard CC and Warchanter are too strong. But if you compare these AA changes to them, then it appears well balanced.


Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality1 on each hit.

Pull of Reality1: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).



Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)

Increase base damage to 1d8.
Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower


This. Very good. Was needed very much. Finally, can dish out some damage compared to melee. But of course, how to balance ranged damage? Technically there's no threat from mobs, you are at range after all, and can even move when needed! (feets don't fail me now!) I don't envy you. How NOT to make an unstoppable killing machine can't be easy. Imagine, Warlocks aura at infinite range!
Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):

Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"
Oh boy, hjere we go again. You know we're gonna get calls for a Tier 5 Crit threat expansion. Make it cost 5 ap? :D


Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):

Dexterity bonus increased to +4


Slaying Arrow:

Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)
I think you need to reiterate that Fury of the Wild is going to be changed to a power calculation instead of straight percentage increase. Being fully frank and forthright will be helpfull. Nothing changes in a vacuum.




This accomplishes a few goals:




DC based abilities2 have long been a bane of Arcane Archers. They were often extremely strong when obtained, but had no way at all to scale up towards higher levels, which has only gotten worse over time and higher levels. Reworking these abilities was a key feature we wanted to get to sooner rather than later. This has meant we've wanted to adjust how some of those abilities work as well, and in particular wanted Smiting and Banishing Arrows to feel more impactful on attacks that were not criticals (while not simply adding damage).
Elemental Arrows were simply too weak, and also didn't scale into Epic levels. These changes should make them feel pretty powerful in heroic while also having some good options to scale into Epic. The addition of multiple choice options gives players some meaningful choices on how to progress.
Those two changes, especially focusing on Spell DCs and Spell Power, help with the lore and flavor of Arcane Archer as well. While not strictly necessary for gameplay, we like to support this when we can. It also gives us a means of differentiating Arcane Archer from other potential bow users. We know this isn't a large and fully realized group of build choices, but we certainly want that open as a development path, and hopefully they won't look all that similar when we get there. Fighters focusing on bows should be viable, for instance, and wouldn't be likely to invest heavily in Spell Power or Enchantment DCs.
Some of the other changes are really quality of life, keeping up with the Joneses, and things we can quickly and easily do.


Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is, and we've been discussing some other possibilities with the Player's Council. Those abilities really need a larger redesign - potentially touching on things like a redesign of Dispels across DDO, for instance, which we just don't have time for right now. But some of us having been pushing to get some of this came out sooner rather than later!

This is, of course, a design-in-progress, subject to change from testing, math, deep insights of wisdom, a million kobolds with typewriters, or designers unscrupulously trying to fit a bit more improvement in when they should probably get on with Level 30 work.



Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, and may you always be fighting in the shade!

I am already started to look at the combo's of this. Don't need to always have the bow equipped, do we? Paralyse, charge in, step back...

Footnotes, Vargouille? That's so outdated. Do you think you're in the module years?

1. (TM)

2. I'm going to recommend that when you fight in other planes, some enemy monsters should inflict Pull of Reality on player characters...
This. Yes. Moar. I like changes to the game that apply both to the abyss as well as to ourselves. It's an ability, it doesn't say its just a good guys only ability!

3. Developer Trivia: Some of the choices here in particular relate to technical hurdles that we've spent some time investigating working around but are probably not worth (even more) time. If you look carefully across DDO, you may note a relative lack of saving throws on most player abilities which are triggered passively. (Shiradi's Nerve Venom, for instance, was always intended to have a saving throw... it just didn't actually work, so got redesigned some at the last minute!) It's not that it's 100% impossible to do some of this kind of thing, but the amount of extra work is staggering (compared to even moderately simple abilities, can take 20-40 times as long to create). Even getting the saving throws we do have here is a bunch of extra work that doesn't really help anywhere else in the game, but at least applies to four abilities. This is also part of why they all use Enchantment Spell DC bonuses, rather than Terror Arrows using Necro... err, I mean, you are clearly enchanting your arrows in any case. So it's a lore reason! That sounds better, right? And therefore part of the flavor is that Arcane Archers specialize in Enchantment. It all comes together, somehow. (No, we're not going to base monster saves assuming you have 4 levels of Arcane Archer to get better Enchantment DCs... but if some Elf Wizard wants to go for it, well, we love somewhat crazy builds.)


P.S. I probably ramble on too much even when I don't give a Trivia warning. Maybe I shouldn't use that. Maybe I shouldn't post hours after everyone else has gone home and no one can stop me. Bwahahahaha!

Mr replies in red. One day i'll figure out multi-quote. (first time useing advanced editor :P )

[Therrias]

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon1.

Arcane Archer



Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank
DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:

Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.
Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality1 on each hit.

Pull of Reality1: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).



Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)

Increase base damage to 1d8.
Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower


Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):

Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"


Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):

Dexterity bonus increased to +4


Slaying Arrow:

Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)



This accomplishes a few goals:




DC based abilities2 have long been a bane of Arcane Archers. They were often extremely strong when obtained, but had no way at all to scale up towards higher levels, which has only gotten worse over time and higher levels. Reworking these abilities was a key feature we wanted to get to sooner rather than later. This has meant we've wanted to adjust how some of those abilities work as well, and in particular wanted Smiting and Banishing Arrows to feel more impactful on attacks that were not criticals (while not simply adding damage).
Elemental Arrows were simply too weak, and also didn't scale into Epic levels. These changes should make them feel pretty powerful in heroic while also having some good options to scale into Epic. The addition of multiple choice options gives players some meaningful choices on how to progress.
Those two changes, especially focusing on Spell DCs and Spell Power, help with the lore and flavor of Arcane Archer as well. While not strictly necessary for gameplay, we like to support this when we can. It also gives us a means of differentiating Arcane Archer from other potential bow users. We know this isn't a large and fully realized group of build choices, but we certainly want that open as a development path, and hopefully they won't look all that similar when we get there. Fighters focusing on bows should be viable, for instance, and wouldn't be likely to invest heavily in Spell Power or Enchantment DCs.
Some of the other changes are really quality of life, keeping up with the Joneses, and things we can quickly and easily do.


Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is, and we've been discussing some other possibilities with the Player's Council. Those abilities really need a larger redesign - potentially touching on things like a redesign of Dispels across DDO, for instance, which we just don't have time for right now. But some of us having been pushing to get some of this came out sooner rather than later!

This is, of course, a design-in-progress, subject to change from testing, math, deep insights of wisdom, a million kobolds with typewriters, or designers unscrupulously trying to fit a bit more improvement in when they should probably get on with Level 30 work.



Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, and may you always be fighting in the shade!



Footnotes, Vargouille? That's so outdated. Do you think you're in the module years?

1. (TM)

2. I'm going to recommend that when you fight in other planes, some enemy monsters should inflict Pull of Reality on player characters...

3. Developer Trivia: Some of the choices here in particular relate to technical hurdles that we've spent some time investigating working around but are probably not worth (even more) time. If you look carefully across DDO, you may note a relative lack of saving throws on most player abilities which are triggered passively. (Shiradi's Nerve Venom, for instance, was always intended to have a saving throw... it just didn't actually work, so got redesigned some at the last minute!) It's not that it's 100% impossible to do some of this kind of thing, but the amount of extra work is staggering (compared to even moderately simple abilities, can take 20-40 times as long to create). Even getting the saving throws we do have here is a bunch of extra work that doesn't really help anywhere else in the game, but at least applies to four abilities. This is also part of why they all use Enchantment Spell DC bonuses, rather than Terror Arrows using Necro... err, I mean, you are clearly enchanting your arrows in any case. So it's a lore reason! That sounds better, right? And therefore part of the flavor is that Arcane Archers specialize in Enchantment. It all comes together, somehow. (No, we're not going to base monster saves assuming you have 4 levels of Arcane Archer to get better Enchantment DCs... but if some Elf Wizard wants to go for it, well, we love somewhat crazy builds.)


P.S. I probably ramble on too much even when I don't give a Trivia warning. Maybe I shouldn't use that. Maybe I shouldn't post hours after everyone else has gone home and no one can stop me. Bwahahahaha!

You really need to give the capstone more attention than 2 extra dex. If you're leaving manyshot as is, then change the doubleshot to ranged power. Also make the imbuement give two or more stances full time instead of that super-annoying switch every 30 seconds.

[Spekdah_NZ]

I love the changes to elemental arrows, the hit die was unexpected but like that too. I was hoping for some more sources of passive ranged power; this being the premier archer tree. Mechanic has T5 Fletching (+3/6/10) and Reloader (+10), can AA have at least something similar? There is some ranged power in DWS, but's it's either T2 action boost with 30 seconds, or tied to a stance (T2 Impr. Archers Focus for +5RP) or at core 6 with Horizon shot (+20).

Be nice to see some Ranged Alacrity at high tiers.

I am another looking for solutions to the doubleshot penalty. Otherwise it's hard to add in any doubleshot bonuses into the tree.

Any chance of scaling summon arrows with cores, so we can have +2 to +5 arrows? (trying to adapt PnP enhance arrow).

[Natashaelle]

Can I ask the Community --

What are your ideas about how these broad principles should vary between Ranger AA and Elf AA ?

Should focus and abilities be very different between the two, identical, or simply variant ?

[FedoraSire]

As monkchers are mostly the only build with WIS as a main stat, having ONLY Wisdom is unfair to the class AA is made for. To satisfy multiple parties, the DCs should work like this:

Base DC+ Stat modifer that your bow's to-hit uses + the other bonuses

This way, three options are available for AA:
Int-based using Harper, to the boon of ARCANE casters
Dex-based using DWS' Improved Finesse/Elven Grace, for elven ____, and the ranger in general
Wis-based (maybe add enhancement that allows WIS to damage, possibly to-hit for pure ranger w/o ki compatability portion?), so the monkchers don't destroy the forums in rage at nerfs.


There's no reason it couldn't be coded, as assassins get the option of INT or DEX for their DCs.

[HatsuharuZ]

I think that these changes are useful for Rangers by themselves.

But what about the RACIAL version of this tree? Is this going to be changed as well?


Oh, concerning the core abilities: I really, REALLY despise the bonuses to bow enhancement bonus that are specifically non-stacking. The reason being, the bonus becomes less and less useful as your character gets better and better bows. By time you reach epic levels, your character gets no benefit at all. I would suggest cutting the total bonus amount in half and making it completely stacking.

[jakeelala]

just let this work with all ranged combat styles please (aka Shuriken, I don't care about xbows they're way too OP now)

[FedoraSire]

just let this work with all ranged combat styles please (aka Shuriken, I don't care about xbows they're way too OP now)

The imbues are called ____ ARROWS for a reason. Darts and xbow bolts may be close enough to an arrow, but shuriken and the other throwers?

/Not signed

[Assassination]

I think the changes look pretty good. Some of us would like to see rangers get a bonus to run speed. Could that be put in this tree in say tier 1? Also, will rangers be getting some sort of "spell" pass? Our spells could really use a boost, revamp, redue....:) Really enjoying my tempest/deepwood ranger!

Thanks

[Apollos713]

Overall, I think this is a really good start to the tree overhaul. I especially like the update to the level 18 core (I'm fine with crit updates instead of extra ranged power in the tree). The updates to the imbues are also a great move.

The suggestions regarding fletching and doubleshot penalty are great suggestions for the final version of AA, but I'm happy with this for an early version (assuming that AA will be updated twice). Clarification about Ranger AA vs. Elf AA would be appreciated.

Personally, I'm fine with WIS as the DC stat. It is the ranger casting stat, after all. Keeping it as the DC stat might make people choose very different archer builds (some might focus on WIS with AA, others might focus on INT with DWS and Harper).



On a separate note, thanks for working late on this Varg. You've posted on evenings and weekends, and I appreciate your dedication.

[Apollos713]

I think the changes look pretty good. Some of us would like to see rangers get a bonus to run speed. Could that be put in this tree in say tier 1? Also, will rangers be getting some sort of "spell" pass? Our spells could really use a boost, revamp, redue....:) Really enjoying my tempest/deepwood ranger!

Thanks

Does run speed need to be in the enhancement tree? Could it be a ranger feat, similar to Slow Fall for a Monk?

I think a spell pass needs to be larger than for just rangers. A spell pass for multiple classes (including Epic spells) is definitely needed in another update.

[Assassination]

Does run speed need to be in the enhancement tree? Could it be a ranger feat, similar to Slow Fall for a Monk?

I think a spell pass needs to be larger than for just rangers. A spell pass for multiple classes (including Epic spells) is definitely needed in another update.

Run speed could defenitely be a ranger spell, just redo longstrider....+1% run speed per level of ranger.... maybe spells are not so easy to redo.

[Basura_Grande]

Looks interesting. However: why no changes to manyshot and doubleshoot penalty? That needs to happen.

All the additions to doubleshot are meaningless without a change.

This absolutely needs to happen.

Also, is double-shot working with all shots on a repeater WAI?

[Basura_Grande]

Slaying Arrow:

Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)


Will this continue to work with Adrenaline?

Will Fury eternal continue to regenerate adrenalines despite this being contradictory to what the description says?

[Livmo]

Can I ask the Community --

What are your ideas about how these broad principles should vary between Ranger AA and Elf AA ?

Should focus and abilities be very different between the two, identical, or simply variant ?

I play a WIS based Sun Elf AA. We have access to the AA tree. I would like WIS included in the new AA offerings since I play Sun Elf AA (no monk).

We unlock the AA Enhancement Tree via Sun Elf Racial Enhancement Tree:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Sun_Elf



Arcane Archer: You gain access to the Arcane Archer enhancement tree. (The Elf: Arcane Archer tree uses your total character level instead of Ranger level, but advances Core Abilities at a slower rate. You cannot spend action points in both the Ranger: Arcane Archer and Elf: Arcane Archer trees.)

You need to click the Accept button before you can select the Arcane Archer (Elf) tree

Its Tier 3 and costs 4 AP to get.

[Blastyswa]

1. Paralyzing DC will be fairly weak unless playing a monkcher. If that's the design goal, then it'll work perfectly with 10k.

2. I'd say just make those chances on the different arrow types 100%. I could see wanting an AA with smiting for some fights (DoJ end fight comes to mind) to increase party DPS, however, if they have a low chance of applying it'll take a long time to reach 25 stacks (Long being more than 10-15 seconds). and 10% movement speed and attack speed isn't much at all on paralyzing, which is fine because it's only on a save anyways.

3. Good luck getting elemental damage right. If I were doing it personally, I would make it something like possible 7d6 scaling with 100% spellpower while manyshotting, 400% while not. Otherwise it'll just be more extreme burst power that makes archers useful for the first 20 seconds of a boss fight.

4. +1 crit multiplier is very boring. At core 18 you can put in other powerful bonuses without risk of holy sword splashing, I'd say something more along the lines of core 18. granting a version of 10k stars thats on all the time related to wisdom or dexterity (multiselector). For example, maybe with 60 Dexterity (A decent number that can probably expected by most builds that focus on it) there is an obvious 100% chance of firing first arrow, a 80% chance of a second arrow, a 40% chance of a third arrow, and a 10% chance of a fourth arrow (I'm pulling these numbers based on what feels right, they could obviously be tweaked). Doubleshot would apply in order of arrows, so with 40% doubleshot the above build would have 100% chance of second arrow, 60% of third, 10% of fourth. If you really wanted to get fancy, manyshot, if you have this enhancement, could be changed (Again, only on having this enhancement) to provide a flat doubleshot bonus; this would give archers more of a sustainable damage option as opposed to being very limited bursters.

5. +4 dex isn't going to cut it. If you were to use something like my above idea, then maybe 20% doublestrike and 10 ranged power would be strong enough. In the current function of manyshot/10k stars though, doubleshot is fairly useless, because
a. You can't use doubleshot for a long time after using manyshot and
b. Doubleshot can at most provide double damage (If you have a 100% doubleshot build, which is likely impossible without zeal) while manyshot provides x4 damage, and 10k stars can typically provide 2.5x-3.5x average damage.

6. I'd say change arrow of slaying drastically. In its current implementation, it's best used alongside fury as an extreme damage spiker. Make it a multiselector for something along the lines of either
+100 damage, +15% chance of instakill on DC 35+Ranger Level +Wis/Dex mod (Purposefully very high DC, with 15% chance across 4 arrows it allows for a more controlled burst) or
+5 passive damage, +10 ranged power.

If you're basing things off of spellpower, perhaps add some into the tree itself? Attaching it to things like Shattermantle and Dispelling Shot could add some passive worth to those abilities, or add multiselectors at some point that allow you to focus more into your chosen element or generalize (Like +30 spellpower acid/cold/fire/electric, or +10 spellpower).

[jakeelala]

The imbues are called ____ ARROWS for a reason. Darts and xbow bolts may be close enough to an arrow, but shuriken and the other throwers?

/Not signed


It's how the game currently works. And since you're just imbuing your ammo for most of these effects, why does it matter if it's a bow or xbow or shuriken? Slayer Arrow works with Shuriken and Xbows now.

[LordTigerDawn]

I like the DC based on Wisdom.

I like the dmg updated for elemental arrows.

I would rather seem slaying arrows add some amount of Ranged Power & spell power (for imbues, with a DC boost) as opposed to a base dmg amount. Like a mini adrenaline. Adrenaline an epic ability should not be worse than a heroic ability.

I am mixed as to whether this should work with throwers. But if they are excluded, make all the abilities not work; not some of them sometimes like they currently do.

[barecm]

I will skip the part where I describe how disappointed I am with this half-a$$ed pass. Can you really just not understand how to fix ranged combat? it has been how many years and how many different dev tems?

Anyway, back to the subject. Before the pass, I was interested only in Slayer arrow, paralyzing arrow, arcane arrows and morphic / metalline arrows.

Now, I am interested in Slayer arrow, elemental arrows and shadow arrows. Everything else drops off I am afraid. Despite the potential of the paralyze and terror arrows, the damage increase to elemental arrows may be too much to resist.

My question is for elemental arrows... will it scale with a spell power augment/item of the corresponding element, with spell power skill, with universal spell power, or all of these? Also, will Shiradi champion sonic damage scale with the perform skill version of spell power?

Will the paralyze, and terror arrows requirement for slayer arrows be removed?

[Grace_ana]

I think it's a good start, but it's really hard to tell with it being a partial pass. My concern about doing it partway instead of all together is that it's hard to see what it needs from a cohesive standpoint. So you do part of it, people build for that, then changes are made later to balance the tree as a whole and people are (rightly) ticked off. I think it's asking for trouble, and I think it's hard for you guys to get decent feedback when we only have part of the picture.

I want my new stuff now just like everyone else, but I'd be willing to wait until we have a full idea of all the proposed AA changes, plus changes to manyshot, so we can actually do a proper pass.

BAsed on what we have, though, I'd say the following:

1. I like the changes to the DC stances and the elemental arrows. Will there be a change so that metamagics can affect these stances as well? Given that they will be affected by spellpower, this seems to be something that should happen.

2. I am happy with the crit multiplier, because it makes it possible to use either DWS/tempest for melee or hybrid and get the multiplier and threat range, or use DWS/AA for the same for a ranged build. Otherwise, a ranged build wouldn't be able to do that while investing heavily in AA, and that would leave AA far behind. I was hoping you would put that multiplier in there, so thank you.

3. Again, alacrity is a serious issue. I would like to see it show up in the AA tree. The RoF for ranged fighting is just too far behind everyone else, even with doubleshot.

4. Speaking of doubleshot, we really, really need to discuss manyshot now before changes are final. Manyshot penalties are killing non-monk ranged toons, and I don't feel pigeonholing builds is good for the game.

5. I agree wholeheartedly with adding a QoL change for arrow stacking and quivers. Please make arrows stack to 1000 in inventory like you guys did with thieves' tools. Also, if you could make it so we can hotbar quivers and switch quickly between them using just a click, that would go a long way towards making us very happy.

6. Adding some sort of fletching to the AA tree would be thematic. I like the ease of the conjured arrows, but at times it would be nice to be able to use and have returned the arrows I pick up along the way.

[Seikojin]

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon1.

Arcane Archer



Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank
DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:

Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.
Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality1 on each hit.

Pull of Reality1: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).



Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)

Increase base damage to 1d8.
Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower


Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):

Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"


Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):

Dexterity bonus increased to +4


Slaying Arrow:

Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)



This accomplishes a few goals:




DC based abilities2 have long been a bane of Arcane Archers. They were often extremely strong when obtained, but had no way at all to scale up towards higher levels, which has only gotten worse over time and higher levels. Reworking these abilities was a key feature we wanted to get to sooner rather than later. This has meant we've wanted to adjust how some of those abilities work as well, and in particular wanted Smiting and Banishing Arrows to feel more impactful on attacks that were not criticals (while not simply adding damage).
Elemental Arrows were simply too weak, and also didn't scale into Epic levels. These changes should make them feel pretty powerful in heroic while also having some good options to scale into Epic. The addition of multiple choice options gives players some meaningful choices on how to progress.
Those two changes, especially focusing on Spell DCs and Spell Power, help with the lore and flavor of Arcane Archer as well. While not strictly necessary for gameplay, we like to support this when we can. It also gives us a means of differentiating Arcane Archer from other potential bow users. We know this isn't a large and fully realized group of build choices, but we certainly want that open as a development path, and hopefully they won't look all that similar when we get there. Fighters focusing on bows should be viable, for instance, and wouldn't be likely to invest heavily in Spell Power or Enchantment DCs.
Some of the other changes are really quality of life, keeping up with the Joneses, and things we can quickly and easily do.


Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is, and we've been discussing some other possibilities with the Player's Council. Those abilities really need a larger redesign - potentially touching on things like a redesign of Dispels across DDO, for instance, which we just don't have time for right now. But some of us having been pushing to get some of this came out sooner rather than later!

This is, of course, a design-in-progress, subject to change from testing, math, deep insights of wisdom, a million kobolds with typewriters, or designers unscrupulously trying to fit a bit more improvement in when they should probably get on with Level 30 work.



Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, and may you always be fighting in the shade!



Footnotes, Vargouille? That's so outdated. Do you think you're in the module years?

1. (TM)

2. I'm going to recommend that when you fight in other planes, some enemy monsters should inflict Pull of Reality on player characters...

3. Developer Trivia: Some of the choices here in particular relate to technical hurdles that we've spent some time investigating working around but are probably not worth (even more) time. If you look carefully across DDO, you may note a relative lack of saving throws on most player abilities which are triggered passively. (Shiradi's Nerve Venom, for instance, was always intended to have a saving throw... it just didn't actually work, so got redesigned some at the last minute!) It's not that it's 100% impossible to do some of this kind of thing, but the amount of extra work is staggering (compared to even moderately simple abilities, can take 20-40 times as long to create). Even getting the saving throws we do have here is a bunch of extra work that doesn't really help anywhere else in the game, but at least applies to four abilities. This is also part of why they all use Enchantment Spell DC bonuses, rather than Terror Arrows using Necro... err, I mean, you are clearly enchanting your arrows in any case. So it's a lore reason! That sounds better, right? And therefore part of the flavor is that Arcane Archers specialize in Enchantment. It all comes together, somehow. (No, we're not going to base monster saves assuming you have 4 levels of Arcane Archer to get better Enchantment DCs... but if some Elf Wizard wants to go for it, well, we love somewhat crazy builds.)


P.S. I probably ramble on too much even when I don't give a Trivia warning. Maybe I shouldn't use that. Maybe I shouldn't post hours after everyone else has gone home and no one can stop me. Bwahahahaha!

Soo, on lamannia this week?

[FestusHood]

I'm a little wary of the dc changes to the paralyzing and terror arrows. It says it includes enchantment bonuses to the dc. I'm going to assume this includes all things that would affect an enchantment spell? If so, if it were changed to use a stat like intelligence or dexterity where there is no real downside to maxing out that stat, you could reach dc's that are similar to what casters can reach with their enchantment spells. The problem is, these aren't special shots, they proc on every arrow fired. That could get pretty ridiculous.

Using wisdom for the dc does definitely favor monkchers, since they are the only archers that would have a good reason to max out their wisdom other than just trying to up the dc on these arrows. I really don't know what the right answer is. I know that the way they worked before basically left them with a 5% proc rate once monster save bands moved out of the range of the dc. That actually left them procing pretty regularly on a build with a high fire rate, like a monkcher.

The main problem with archers in general is their low rate of fire. I currently have a monkcher and a mechanic. Using the archer is just painful after using the mechanic. If it's not possible to change the way the animation works to achieve a higher rate of fire, allowing doubleshot to at least not be so heavily penalized by activating manyshot or 10k stars, could help. Not sure it should go completely away, but maybe it should.

If the doubleshot penalty goes completely away, monkchers will always be firing more arrows than any other archer. The only way this could be evened out is by putting things in that can't be reached by monkchers. This of course brings up the problem that even if you put large amounts of doubleshot in the upper cores, they can still be reached by accessing the elven version of AA.

A crazy idea i had was that they should remove the doubleshot penalty for manyshot, but leave it for 10k stars. That may sound unfair, but realistically, there are no bow users who are only using 10k and not also manyshot. Otherwise, you might just have to go so far as making the two abilities mutually exclusive, and removing all the doubleshot penalty.

When i played my monkcher which could get to the golden number of 56 wisdom, my estimate is that i was firing somewhere in the area of 2.5-2.75 arrows per shot on average. Always shot two, and shot three about half the time, and a fourth arrow occurred occasionally, but not often. It has a 30 second uptime and a 30 second cooldown. So 50% uptime. In a straight up comparison, isn't this just as good as manyshot, just spread out over time rather than concentrated in short bursts? Maybe monks and manyshotters need to go their separate ways for the sake of balance if not diversity.

[dontmater]

just giving AA a small boost would do allot, and maybe working on how to get the different arrows to work better on hot bars from within quivers.
slayer shot seems fine as is. considering AA really only have 2 destinies to use maybe something special would be neat. just please don't break it.
maybe abit more ranged power?
AA from day 1.

[Sharktopus]

Dispelling shot: x%/y%/x% Chance to cast Silence. Target cannot cast spells for n seconds.

Shattermantle shot: Reduces MRR by x/y/z for n/n/n seconds.

[UurlockYgmeov]

overall I like.

How will this work for the Elven version?

Are you going to drop the AP cost of shattermantle and dispelling shot to 1 each?

?and love the footnotes! Bwahahawahawa!

[mikarddo]

On EE AA bow builds are currently great burst dps but awful sustained dps compared to many other builds. The advantage in burst dps used to be huge but that gap has closed considerably and is no longer truly decisive. The gap in sustained dps though is positively huge.

Now, I applaud the direction taken to up the sustained dps for AA bow users. It will still be well behind many other builds including rogue mech ranged builds though but I think thats fine. However, that means that you really cannot lower the burst dps of the AA bow user because that would take the fun part out of the build as well as remove its one advantage. If you lower the burst (manyshot + slayer + adrenaline) you will be left with a build with no real advantage that has the disadvantage of lower sustained dps. Oh, and if you up the sustained dps to be competitive but lower the burst dps you are simply left with a close of the rogue mech and whats the point of making builds similar rather than different but equally powerful?

Also, the monkcher used to be hugely OP but thats certainly no longer the case so there is no reason to worry if that build gains some buffing from the AA pass as long as the ranger gets more, e.g. the level 18 core. More is needed though for the non-monk AA - in particular a removal of the doubleshot penalty for high level rangers.

So, kindly dont nerf slaying arrows or adrenaline, nor monkchers. You will be removing a build thats actually different from most other builds in how it plays yet certainly isnt top of the charts by any means overall (barb, pally, bard, tree, wolf, shuricannon, shiradi caster, warlock etc come to mind).

Finally, please acknowledge that bows are 2h weapons and add 2 augment slots that can hold red augments (TF bow, I am . In the light of the spell power change to elemental arrows that gets even more important.

[Dreppo]

Manyshot needs to be un-nerfed. The penalty was put in to try to balance monkchers who have *two* manyshots (kinda), the other one being 10k Stars. But the penalty is unfair for non-monkcher characters such as pure rangers. The penalty is so harsh that it is quite often a net loss in DPS over the course of a quest. Worse, the penalty gets harsher the higher your doubleshot is! If your doubleshot is normally 20%, then the penalty is effectively -20% to doubleshout; but if your doubleshot is normally 75%, then then penalty is effectively -75% to doubleshot; etc. The penalty also unfairly favors builds that normally melee but only switch to the bow for manyshotting. Those builds aren't really penalized at all; during the penalty period, they are meleeing. But for a full time archer the penalty really hits hard. There's just so much wrong with this.

Summary: Remove the penalty to manyshot. And make manyshot and 10k stars share a timer, like the description currently states. Monkcher problem eliminated.

This needs to be done now, not later, so that decisions about AA are balanced with the new state of manyshot in mind.

Thank you.

[Lorianus]

I like it! The idea to put some caster related things into Arcane Archer sounds great. Someday we may get some more Ranger spells and a WIS based AA with CC spells may get viable.

[Lorianus]

Manyshot needs to be un-nerfed.

My guess: There will be a game mechanics update at some point to adress Manyshot/10k stars, holy sword crit range stacking, divine grace and some others.

[eachna_gislin]

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon1.

Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is, and we've been discussing some other possibilities with the Player's Council. Those abilities really need a larger redesign - potentially touching on things like a redesign of Dispels across DDO, for instance, which we just don't have time for right now. But some of us having been pushing to get some of this came out sooner rather than later!

AA *NEEDS* steady, sustained damage in the tree (which I guess means ranged power, or bow animations being redone the way repeaters were to function in the new higher-damage environment). You keep forgetting that Arcane Archer is a racial tree for elves and half-elves and that means any class can be an AA. Sticking all the steady damage in Deepwood Sniper and presuming AA's can afford to take extra feats for ranged power (because rangers get the core archery feats for free) cripples racial builds.

*ALL* a Racial build gets to help them out is Dex-to-Damage or up to 5 points of fake Bow Strength. If you spend 14 ap just to unlock something (plus 30-40-ish ap in the tree), and at least six feats (that aren't free for racial AA's), it should be viable.

PLEASE stop dismissing racial AA's when you make these changes.

[mezzorco]

Being AA the "caster" tree, I'm gonna ask this here aswell.

I've got it, you're not gonna add new spells, despite ranger clearly needs them.
The question is: why?

I mean, I really know how much time it takes for you, but you did it for other classes.
So why aren't you going to do this for the class that needs it more?

[rehakp]

Interesting ideas. Some of them maybe even too strong :o
+7 possible dices of elemental damage scalling with spellpower on every shot is significant boost.
DC changes = WIS based archers could even pull out some decent CC this way and i can even imagine archer builds that takes Greater Focus Enchantment feat now.

I stay tuned and depending on the changes i consider Bow archer next life.

[rehakp]

Overall seems like a good start, but why base the DC of the special arrows on Wisdom? 20 + Wis Mod + Enchantment bonuses simply won't be high enough for epic elite unless you have Wis as your main stat, and even then it wouldn't be the best dc out there. I understand that it's a spammable ability, but to base it on Wisdom...the DC will be almost the same it is on live. If you used Dex mod instead, it would a much more viable form of CC. Assuming a decent dex (say, 50) it would be 20 + 20 + 6 (assuming 2 x SF: Enchant), and 46 isn't really a great DC for EE. It would work since it's applied to every arrow though, so at least it wouldn't be only functional when the mob rolls a 1.

THIS IS WRONG sire. With this logic there could not be any working DC caster in whole game.
What you are forgetting is:
Spell focus Gear (imagine thunderforged Bow designed for AA)
Spell focus form Epic destinies(Magister twist easy to use)
Bard past life
Wizard past life
Other enhancement trees(bard, wizard multiclass, some racials gives +1 ench. etc...)

In reality WIS based AA that exploits all he can pull out 60+ DC this way.
Would it sacrifice alot (probably all) build choices for this and becomes gimped in other areas ? .... yeah probably but same is true for DC casters

[FranOhmsford]

Arcane Archer



DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:

Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.

Why a Wis Modifier?

Rangers DUMP Wis!

They have absolutely no use for it other than being able to cast Lvl 4 spells {14 required or 8 base, +6 item, 8 base, +2 tome, +2 ship buff, +2 insightful augment}.

This on the other hand won't help one bit with making Wis useful UNLESS it's MAXED!

Rangers can't afford to max Wisdom!


AA Silver Flame Clerics/Souls won't have the Feats to max out Enchantment DCs so will not be viable at End-Game!


Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower


Spellpower?

WHAT Spellpower?

The ONLY Spellpower a Ranger should have is Devotion!

[Aletys]

Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.



Using Wisdom as the base stat for the arrow DC's gives major rewards to the one class that doesn't need any additional bonuses (Monkchers), and does a serious diservice to everyone else, especially to the class you're supposed to be helping, which I thought is the Dexterity based Arcane Archer.

Unless you are simply wanting to give even more power to Monkchers, this needs to be changed to Dexterity, not left as Wisdom. As has been mentioned earlier, most AA builds take only enough Wisdom to be able to use all their spells. That gives them plenty of spell points to function. The rest goes into Dexterity, which improves their evasion, and lets them use Dexterity to damage effectively. Or if they are using a pally/ranger splash, they use strength to damage, and again don't take much wisdom.

With respect to your second bullet above, what enchantment spells are you referring to? The arrow imbues? How exactly is this going to work? Do AA's now need to take enchantment focus to be effective? I certainly hope this is not the case.

Changing the AA's paralyzing arrows to very short duration seems like a step backwards. Will paralyzing bows be changed as well?




Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower



Scales with spell power? Will AA's now need to have combustion/glaciation/corrosion/magnetism/impulse spellpower items in addition to their bows? There really isn't any room in their gear set for this, especially as most spellpower items are weapons, and they can only equip one weapon at a time. Just how exactly will this be accomplished?



Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):

Dexterity bonus increased to +4



This is very disappointing. It is really weak compared to the other new trees, especially if wisdom is going to be used for the arrow imbue DC's. The capstones for Paladin, Barbarian, Mechanic Rogue, Warlock, DWS and Tempest are far stronger. And neither the DWS nor Tempest capstones are affected by the manyshot penalty.

Additional items that need to be addressed:


Eliminate the manyshot penalty for AA's. Right now, taking the capstone is actually detrimental my AA's performance. This is pretty ridiculous.

Add some decent ranged power.

Make core increases to bow enhancement values stacking with bow values. Right now, these enhancements are useless once you get to the low epic levels.

[Aletys]

THIS IS WRONG sire. With this logic there could not be any working DC caster in whole game.
What you are forgetting is:
Spell focus Gear (imagine thunderforged Bow designed for AA)
Spell focus form Epic destinies(Magister twist easy to use)
Bard past life
Wizard past life
Other enhancement trees(bard, wizard multiclass, some racials gives +1 ench. etc...)

In reality WIS based AA that exploits all he can pull out 60+ DC this way.
Would it sacrifice alot (probably all) build choices for this and becomes gimped in other areas ? .... yeah probably but same is true for DC casters

No, it is NOT wrong. The DC based casters all use their primary stat for DC's. Wisdom is NOT an AA's primary stat, unless they're a Monkcher. The past life bonuses you mention are both active feats, not passive. Just which of the precious ranged feats needed to be a decent ranged build are you expecting us to give up? A thunderforged bow with spellcasting attributes will mean it can't have some very important damage attributes on it that are unimportant to a spellcaster, but are important to a ranged build. What about the brand new Epic Sapphire Sting, and all the other bows in the game? Will they now all become obsolete and useless because they don't provide spell focus? Last time I looked, we can't equip two bows at the same time.

Further, we have to wait till we hit level 26 to be able to use a thunderforged bow with spell focus on it. Not to mention the length of time needed to farm the necessary ingredients. And, a first life ranger starts in the Primal sphere. They have to work their way through the Martial Sphere (at least 2 destinies), then through Fatesinger, before they can even get to Magister. That's four destinies they have to work through before they can start building the Magister destiny.

Based on your approach, only multi-life, multi-class toons with full destinies should even consider being rangers. Or Monkchers. No one else need bother.

[CeltEireson]

Few points off the top of my head.

I suspect the devs are aiming to make you choose between being good dps or crowd control with lower dps by forcing you to concentrate on wisdom to have the cc stances etc work. Which I think is fair enough.

Between Aa and DWS we can get +1 to both crit.multiplier and threat range which is a significant increase, plus what looks like substantial increase in damage from elemental or force arrows. So in AA id say its a choice between focusing on the special stances or focusing on elemental damage.

How good the elemental damage is depends on the scaling, but even at 100% it would be possibly up to 14d8 damage if I read it right with just 100 spellpower? And there are plenty of items that give spellpower boosts for various elements and most named bows have a red augment as well, so I don't think getting a reasonable amount of spellpower would be that difficult

With regards to requests for speed increases for ranger I don't think that its a good idea, as it is a ranger can avoid most damage by virtue of attacking at range and kiting if needs be. Increasing their speed to a point where they can simply outrun most mobs would possibly make life a little too easy for them especially when combined with the dps increase and cc elements.

[FranOhmsford]

Few points off the top of my head.

I suspect the devs are aiming to make you choose between being good dps or crowd control with lower dps by forcing you to concentrate on wisdom to have the cc stances etc work. Which I think is fair enough.

If you're in a Group there's a very good chance someone else will be providing the Crowd Control!

If you're soloing Arrow based CC just means taking double the time to get a completion {Because your DPS is super low!}.


Many classes now have high DPS AND good CC abilities - Why should AA be the one that has to pick between the two?



And it's not JUST concentrating on Wisdom - You will need TWO Feats!


As someone else has already pointed out this is clearly going to be massive for Monkchers but will HINDER Rangers! {Why don't the Devs just have done with it and move AA to Monk as that's clearly what they want!}.



BTW There's a simple solution to the Monkcher dilemma AND to the perceived OPness of Palarangers too:
Make Rangers unable to be Lawful! - They're nature lovers anyway and tend to loathe civilization!

[btolson]

Terror, Paralyzing
I think you should ditch the DCs on these abilities. Between Manyshot vs Manyshot downtime and Monkcher vs non-Monkcher, you're never going to get to a good spot with DCs; they will slingshot from OP to UP and back again. These would really be best off as active abilities that have no save (like Otto's Whistler), which would nullify the effect manyshot/10k has on them and give you a lot more balancing control.


Banishing, and Smiting
I'm uncertain how the DC for these would even work. Are they losing the "on vorpal" to instead be "on a failed save"? Or is the DC being added to the current on-vorpal effect to bypass the 1k HP limitation?

If the saves stay, I think they should be based on max(IntMod, ChaMod) rather than WisMod. This is Arcane Archer after all, and in PnP AA's are required to have levels in an arcane class which would be either Int or Cha based.



Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)
This on-arrow damage is just going to exacerbate issues with Manyshot. I would rather see:
* tier1 grant you all 4 of the elemental arrow stances @1d6 damage. Spellpower scaling is OK, though perhaps not worth the effort to code.
* tier2 becomes Force Arrows (changes places and becomes part of the dependency chain)
* tier3 grants you Improved Elemental Arrows
* tier4 grants you Arcane Arrows, a DDO version of PnP Imbue Arrow (arcane spell procs added to your shot). It gives you all of: Fireball Arrow (static caster-level of 7), Chain Lightning Arrow (cl 5), Acid Rain Arrow (cl 10), Cone of Cold Arrow (cl 8), Chain Missile Arrow (cl 6).

* These would each be active ability shots, not stances. When your shot hits something, the relevant spell has a 100% proc rate to be produced at the specified caster level.
* These procs would of course be affected by spellpower, and hopefully would also be able to accept Maximize and Empower metamagics.
* Each of these abilities would have an individual cooldown of around 12-15 seconds and share a common "global" cooldown of around 4-5 seconds (encouraging a rotation).
* Each of these abilities would cost a handful of SP. Due to their low, static caster levels, a low cost should be OK even considering the impact of IPS.
* I'm uncertain how the DCs should be handled. How is the DC on sunburst in shiradi handled?
* It will finally be possible to have a very strong AA Shiradi
* Using manyshot or 10k stars will put each of these abilities on cooldown for a number of seconds equal to that buff's duration. The idea is to add sustained DPS to AA's with these abilities, without contributing to the alpha issue.

* tier5 grants you Hail of Arrows (pretty much as per PnP), an active ability that fires one arrow at every enemy within your PBS range (to a max of 50 meters, to account for the DWS capstone). Due to it's chain-missile-like nature, it should inherently not work at all with manyshot or 10k, once again giving AA's more sustainable DPS against crowds without exacerbating the burst issue.


I realize these ideas don't fit your goal for a "quick'n'dirty" phase 1 pass, but I would really not like to see any more power added to manyshot. That ability has been breaking dedicated archers since forever, and buffing it is only going to break them more. Anything you add/buff should categorically not function with manyshot, and exist solely in the "sustained DPS" category.



Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger): Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"
Not to sound like a broken record, but this again will strongly benefit manyshot and I think you should do something else. Buffing the +double shot on the stance should be fine, since that doesn't work with manyshot. Perhaps add to this core: "Your manyshot ability no longer inflicts a penalty to double shot after using it."


One last suggestion, for core1: the enhancement bonus it offers is pretty useless. I think you should change this to a passive +1% double shot per core.

[Saekee]

I found that the AA imbues made sense when switching back and forth with throwers. My dex-based halfling monk/ranger/rogue would manyshot with arrows and then utilize shurikens for rapid CC debuffs. So I think there needs to be explicit clarification whether or not AA should affect throwers. I am fine either way since I TR'd anyway...

[barecm]

Finally, please acknowledge that bows are 2h weapons and add 2 augment slots that can hold red augments (TF bow, I am . In the light of the spell power change to elemental arrows that gets even more important.

This. Definitely. TWF gets two slots so should bows.

Also, I am not understanding the uproar about using the wisdom mod for paralyzing. You can now max dex, ignore str, in, char, put a decent amount into con and dump into wis. Using that method I am still at 40 wis or so at lvl 28. and either 58 or 64 dex depending on which ED I am in and just at or over 1000 hps. So, 40 wis would be 20+15+ band immaterial (+6) and whatever other spell focus enchantment feats you take... so like 41 being a conservative estimate? That is higher than that? Better than the original 37. Also, you can craft a enchantment focus bow instead of paralyze at tier 2.

I plan on going the elemental arrows route, but need clarification on exactly what sources of spell power will boost it.

[Arlathen]

These look like the start of some great changes to my Ranger AA Brothers & Sisters out there.

1. Casting Attribute on Terror / Paralyzing etc...
As much as Wisdom is the Ranger casting attribute, isn't this further playing into the hands of Monkchers instead of Pure Rangers?

Charisma could be option - it has tiny, woeful precedent with Wild Empathy after all. I'm not entirely sure how Dexterity fits into being a Casting Attribute, but I can see the argument for a Dex alternative as well from a game mechanics point of view.

2. Paralyzing Arrows
I like the on-save addition, but it would be further cool if this on-save effect stacked up to 5 times.

3. Dispelling Arrow
This is ripe for being a nice AoE Debuff arrow instead, with the following suggestion:

"Mindsnare Shot - Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged AOE attack that deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage to all targets. Each target in the Area of Effect suffers Silence and Slow for 15s on a failed save. Each effect must be saved separately, with save being calculated at DC20 +Wisdom Modifier +Enchantment Spell Bonuses. 5SP, 30s Cooldown"

4. Shattermantle Arrow
Again, why not change this to be a general DoT/Debuff arrow instead? Say:

"Soulshatter Arrow - Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged attack that deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage to all targets. In addition, inflicts 2D6 Force damage every 2s for 15s and reduces the targets Fortitude, Reflex and Will saves by 1. The effect stacks upto 3 times, and is affected by your Force Spell power. 5SP, 10s Cooldown"

5. Smiting Arrows & Banishing Arrows
These feel a bit meh still. The extra effects are nice for a long Boss battle, but certainly not what I'd prefer as a Primary Arrow imbue .

6. Manyshot & Doubleshot Penalties
Can we address current thinking on these Elephants in the room, please? I'd be interested to see why I should go pure Ranger 20 as a full time Archer over using a Monk / Ranger multi-class that has access to the full AA tree through a Racial enhancement.

12 Ranger / 6 Monk still seems like a given, tbh. On that thought, why not give Rangers (new granted Class Feat?) or AAs access to a 10Kstars ability that only affects bows and shares a cooldown with 10Kstars?

7. Dodge & Run speed
I was hoping to see some potential low hanging fruit in terms of Dodge or Run speed in this tree, since it didn't make it into Tempest or DWS, and on reflection I think it makes more sense for it to be in this tree somewhere?

8. Bows & Spell Power
I second (third?) the notion that some named Bows should get two (red!) Augment slots, instead of just one.

9. Items
Any chance Rangers are going to get some class-related item love soon? A named Scimitar and Longbow could be funky.

[Arkai]

My two cents on this:

- Wisdom based saves: I don't like it, I see no sinergy between the damage I put into the weapon with my primary stat and this one. If you don't want to create a DC monster, simply put a 50% chance of deal the arrow effect or just leave an always-to-apply effect (a softer version, I guess). However, I should test the real DCs in EE content with a normal set of features and equipment to be sure about your proposal.

- Elemental damage scaling: Seems awesome, I'm eager to test it.

[geoffhanna]

[edit] Nevermind. Someday I will learn to read. Not today, apparently.

[HatsuharuZ]

1) I don't think that Pull of Reality is powerful enough to require it to lose 5 stacks per 3 seconds. Compare it to 'Vulnerability'.

2) Yes, please let some outerplanar monsters use this debuff! More monsters need to do more than just damage.

[Qhualor]

This AA pass seems to be more focused on imbues, DCs and bow damage improvements. I like how Vargouille talks about lore. Finally getting to the devs? :)

Btw, ranger spells.

[Mryal]

I have to say, this changes are...well..they are awesome.Spellpower instead of ranged power, actual WIS based CC i totally did not expect that.
Please ignore all people asking for the change in the DC calculations from WIS to any other stat, first of all its the divine DC casting stat and the casting stat for rangers, second, lets be honest, WIS characters have been neglected for far too long.
Now with a racial AA using WIS for CC a number of previously flavor builds become much more viable, AA cleric, AA fvs, AA Druid, even AA pure monk would work.




3. Dispelling Arrow
This is ripe for being a nice AoE Debuff arrow instead, with the following suggestion:

"Mindsnare Shot - Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged AOE attack that deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage to all targets. Each target in the Area of Effect suffers Silence and Slow for 15s on a failed save. Each effect must be saved separately, with save being calculated at DC20 +Wisdom Modifier +Enchantment Spell Bonuses. 5SP, 30s Cooldown"

4. Shattermantle Arrow
Again, why not change this to be a general DoT/Debuff arrow instead? Say:

"Soulshatter Arrow - Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged attack that deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage to all targets. In addition, inflicts 2D6 Force damage every 2s for 15s and reduces the targets Fortitude, Reflex and Will saves by 1. The effect stacks upto 3 times, and is affected by your Force Spell power. 5SP, 10s Cooldown"


Great ideas!

[Eddexp]

1-As a player really fan of bows from the beginning and im not fan of do specialized trees for only one weapon but i think we need a tree facing "bows" because the nerfs applied the thrown weapons also had an effect on the arches and there is already the tree Ninja Spy with a good support to trowing weapons and Mecanic to missile weapons.
2-Nice change doing spell power to the elemental arrow.And if u dont have spell power the adicional damage keeps almost the same or even better.
3-really need the status to damage skill, since most of the ranged specialized classes have it.And the best of the options a multi selector choise(Dex,Wis,Int).
4-I really would love to see AA using some arcane magic like Fireball Arrow,Chain Lightning Arrow,Acid Rain Arrow,frost lance Arrow,Magic Missile Arrow in a small percentage chance on each arrow.
5-A adicional +[w] and +%AttSpeed damage with bows ... as compared to the repeaters/gxbows of mechanical bows seem pillows.+40% Ranged Alacrity with non-repeating crossbows."Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 3 Sneak Attack dice and also gain +2[W]. Great Crossbows now vorpal on a 19-20" seens a loot more OP then a 20s skill who have only 1 combo on all game(fury shot) and a insane a penalty for more then 1 min,who insanely stake with the penalty given by 10tz giving -200% of double shot.(i inderestand the extra dice damage but...why...why...why greaterxbows are soo ******** fast then bows...If fury shot break the game balance ...take it, because as someone who likes bows I still prefer to see good gameplay with bows than an entire skill nerfed for a skill used with shurikens).
6-Give us vorpal too...or do something like vorpal arrow.
7-Really "Horizon Shot" give 20 melee/ranged power and "Mystical Archer/Master of Imbuement" give %attspeed who selfnerf if you use manyshots?

[Grailhawk]

Thought I saw some one complain about having to give up proc effects on a Thunderforged bow to put elemental spell power on it for Elemental Arrows. Can't find the post now but here is math to compare 150 spell power vs the other Thunderforged effects.


1st Degree Burns: 5d6 Fire, and Vulnerable, 5*3.5 = 17.5 avg damage per hit, and vulnerable which only maters if no one else is putting it on.

Touch of Flames: 10d6 Fire. 10*3.5 = 35 avg damage.


Elemental Arrows + Dwarvencrft Elemental Spell Power 7d8 scaling with 100% spell power. 7*4.5 = 31.5 base
let x be spell power not from Dwarvencraft effect.
31.5(100+x+150)/100 = 31.5 + 0.315x + 47.25

47.25 extra damage from the 150 spell power that's better then Touch of Flames and better then 1st degree burns if with out the vulnerability part which you can let some one else handle and isn't as good against trash. IMO 150 Spell power is competitive in this instance. 47.25 avg damage is roughly 13.5d6

[SirShen]

Why only Wisdom Modifier? should it not be wisdom and dexterity as they are the states you can take in the tree?

Well if it stays only wisdom modifier, think ill just stick with the elemental arrows in epics.

Also Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):


Dexterity bonus increased to +4


That is so weak to the other two enhancement trees. Also if your forcing arrow DC to wisdom should this not be +4 bonus to wisdom and dex? Also why no Ranged Power?

[HastyPudding]

Seriously? Wisdom as a primary stat? Are you deliberately trying to make people play monkchers as the only viable longbow class? This is, by far, the most disgusting thing I've ever heard you guys come up with. There's no excuse for this. Words simply cannot express my irritation, right now.

Are you deliberately trying to make me quit DDO?

[Grailhawk]

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

[redoubt]

Looks interesting. However: why no changes to manyshot and doubleshoot penalty? That needs to happen.

All the additions to doubleshot are meaningless without a change.

Its just a partial pass that they don't want to wait to put in. More is coming.


First I'm coming from the perspective of Elf to access AA and not Ranger.

• Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses

I personally enjoy a 12/8 Elf Fighter/Wizard. My primary attribute is Dexterity. While I don't ignore wisdom I'm trying to understand why Dexterity Modifier is not an OR option. To me Dexterity works well especially with Elf and leveraging Grace's Dexterity to Damage.

I understand that wisdom is a recommended attribute for Rangers but most builds only go for enough wisdom to meet spell level which is needing to hit 14.

Also the fact that most Arcane classes are either Intelligence based or Charisma based.

I would like to ask if possible to allow this to be the highest of Wisdom/Dexterity/Intelligence/Charisma.

This would open up more build options for the AA tree as well as remove the advantage a Monk AA build would have over other builds.

I do understand that Wizard AA builds do get an advantage with access to a Spell Focus Feat(s) so that might also need to be considered.

==============================
I like the elemental arrow direction - especially the spell power part, may even consider these with this type of change.

==============================
As pointed out by another poster. Are we going to see a change in the Doubleshot penalty from Manyshot/10K Stars?

I think WISDOM is the right call for the DC in the ranger version of the tree. If you come into the tree from Elf, I think it should be an INT/CHA version.


18 Levels of Ranger, or elf / high elf i assume?

Actually, if they put it only in the ranger version it prevents monchers from getting it. I'd like to see this sort of differentiation between the two AA trees.


Can I ask the Community --

What are your ideas about how these broad principles should vary between Ranger AA and Elf AA ?

Should focus and abilities be very different between the two, identical, or simply variant ?

Some things the same, but definitely different. I think the elf one should be more magic focused and the ranger one be based more on physical stuff.
Another way to do it would be to make them Arcane Archer and "Ranger" Archer (I need a better word.) I.e. Arcane Archer has things that come from arcane spells like arrows of holding. Ranger would have Snare Arrows. Arcane archer would have a banish and the ranger version would do bane damage to creature un-"Natural" to this plane. Stuff like that.


As monkchers are mostly the only build with WIS as a main stat, having ONLY Wisdom is unfair to the class AA is made for. To satisfy multiple parties, the DCs should work like this:

Base DC+ Stat modifer that your bow's to-hit uses + the other bonuses

This way, three options are available for AA:
Int-based using Harper, to the boon of ARCANE casters
Dex-based using DWS' Improved Finesse/Elven Grace, for elven ____, and the ranger in general
Wis-based (maybe add enhancement that allows WIS to damage, possibly to-hit for pure ranger w/o ki compatability portion?), so the monkchers don't destroy the forums in rage at nerfs.


There's no reason it couldn't be coded, as assassins get the option of INT or DEX for their DCs.

I think DEX is the wrong stat for the DCs. At the same time, I think the elf version should use INT/CHA (arcane stats) and the ranger version should use WIS (ranger stat).


Why a Wis Modifier?

Rangers DUMP Wis!



Make a choice. I don't think every class / build / tree should be able to do everything. That some have been allowed to do so is a mistake. Maybe they are going to start fixing that, but if we continue to drive them to make all builds "Master of all Trades" then it will be our own fault.


Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

Bingo!

[barecm]

Thought I saw some one complain about having to give up proc effects on a Thunderforged bow to put elemental spell power on it for Elemental Arrows. Can't find the post now but here is math to compare 150 spell power vs the other Thunderforged effects.


1st Degree Burns: 5d6 Fire, and Vulnerable, 5*3.5 = 17.5 avg damage per hit, and vulnerable which only maters if no one else is putting it on.

Touch of Flames: 10d6 Fire. 10*3.5 = 35 avg damage.


Elemental Arrows + Dwarvencrft Elemental Spell Power 7d8 scaling with 100% spell power. 7*4.5 = 31.5 base
let x be spell power not from Dwarvencraft effect.
31.5(100+x+150)/100 = 31.5 + 0.315x + 47.25

47.25 extra damage from the 150 spell power that's better then Touch of Flames and better then 1st degree burns if with out the vulnerability part which you can let some one else handle and isn't as good against trash. IMO 150 Spell power is competitive in this instance. 47.25 avg damage is roughly 13.5d6

I think you are referring to my statement of giving up paralyzing on Tier 2 TF for elemental damage. It was not a complaint, but rather an observation/theory craft of how things would go. So, it looks like it will be the way. Also jumbled up in that statement was the ask for a second red slot on bows to compare with other 2 handed weapons. Or, maybe a red slot in a quiver.

[blerkington]

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

Hi,

Usually I find myself agreeing with you, but:

These abilities aren't spells, so there's no reason to tie them to a non core stat for the sake of 'consistency'.

Using WIS instead of DEX hands more power to monkchers. That build is already doing quite well from this enhancement pass because of its higher RoF. More projectiles means more damage per time unit from the imbues, and using WIS as the basis for DC amounts to a double reward.

Using DEX as the basis for the DC would be a way for pure DEX builds to be better than monk splashes in one area. If you're uncomfortable with that, then other solutions includes using the better of DEX or WIS (not my preferred option, but better than WIS alone), or using something else, like ranger class levels.

Thanks.

[geoffhanna]

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

Incorrect.

Arcane Archers are INT based. They are Arcane. The DC should be INT-based as well.

[Wh070aa]

And now you need wisdom too?

Well my AA build is totally killed. Repeter rangers are gonna suffer a lot. Reduced stun timers will kill switching weapons after stunning stuff.

I DON'T WANT TO PLAY MONKCHER!

Give this tree +4 wis in the end on top of the dex, and make the stances work with bolts. If you nerf slayer arrow, AA will be left unused. You already are nerfing the stun arrows hardcore, and since there are only 3 abilities that anyone cares about in AA (Conjure Arrows, Paralyzing Arrows, and slayer arrow). Asking us to invest into Wis on top of it is just bad, since you can't hit any DC's in this game without absolutely maxing the stat.

Also change the Doubleshot bonus to something else. Manyshot makes it absolutely worthless.

[Apollos713]

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

Absolutely agree. WIS is the right stat, and can make AA archers a different type of build from DWS archers.

[HatsuharuZ]

It occurs to me that there are more than a few abilities that can be tied to more than one stat. Most ED abilities, for one.

How about a choice of INT or WIS? Or INT, WIS or DEX?



Geez people, why do you all rage about the smallest things? Suggesting an alternative is much more useful than raging.

[Faltout]

Finally a sane update to a tree. I don't think too much power was added.

1. Updating paralyzing/terror/banishing arrows was a good thing. Using WIS as the DC stat is the right choice since it forces the players to make a meaningful hard CHOICE (how many years have we had since one of THOSE were introduced?). And it is still viable without max WIS. Since arrows get spammed, 1 in 20 arrows will succeed in paralyzing or terrorizing the enemy for 6 seconds. So, it's still better than the initial paralyzing that would work 5% of the time and paralyze for 3 seconds. And then if someone wants to make this ability work more often, he can make the DC go to 50 (20 + 20 WIS mod + 4 AA enhancements + 3 item + 3 feats) and work more than once per 20 shots. The difference between this ability and DC casting is that casting takes time and sp, while this ability is spammable. So, a spell landing 100% of the time is equivalent to an arrow landing 5% of the time. (19 difference in DCs)

2. Elemental arrows are updated (yay). Good call to scale with spell power. Another effect the archer should slot in his gear, another choice.

3. Good call to not update dispelling arrows. Currently, dispelling arrows also remove debuffs from the monsters. That makes them unusable when the party has stacked some debufs on them (or you have used inferno shot to stack fire damage which gets removed by dispel shots). Probably a good idea to revamp dispel altogether before this change. Don't forget to write that down in the documentation about the AA pass so future developers will be able to see that something is incomplete.

The bad:

4. WIS is the main stat of monkchers making this build even more powerful. Isn't it about time you prevented 10k stars to not work with manyshot or not work with bows and arrows and instead work with shurikens? The monks getting more out of the arrow DCs is a good thing (choices choices). However, the 2 other abilities were broken to begin with.

5. Isn't it about time you removed the doubleshot penalty (or most of it) for pure rangers? How about (as already suggested) you reduce the penalty to -30% or -40% in the AA capstone?

Overall, this tree needs the choice of what arrows to use against certain enemies (something that had eclipsed from DDO - everyone uses a main weapon against everything), it provides CC for some interesting play (if only deepwood had some more interesting choices...) and does not have too much damage (at least I didn't see anywhere increases to ranged power/extra bow damage/extra bow dice).
Good pass.

[Mryal]

Absolutely agree. WIS is the right stat, and can make AA archers a different type of build from DWS archers.

Yea, of course...DEX is alredy favored on other ranger trees, and INT isnt even a stat for ranger, wis IS the obvious choice.If youre not using high wis theres elemental stances to use instead wich got a HUGE boost, people are failing to see that.
IF the devs are open to allow a multiselector between dex/wis or best of dex/wis then i'd agree, but replacing WIS with another stat would be completly stupid, for reasons i mentioned before.

[CeltEireson]

I am another looking for solutions to the doubleshot penalty. Otherwise it's hard to add in any doubleshot bonuses into the tree.

Any chance of scaling summon arrows with cores, so we can have +2 to +5 arrows? (trying to adapt PnP enhance arrow).

Yeah, without a solution to the double shot penalty for rangers the capstone is weak. With no double shot penalty capstone is reasonable.

The scaling of arrows is not really any use past low levels as its only the higher of bow enhancement bonus or arrows that counts and most epic bows are in the range +5 - +12.

[Severlin]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

[Kielbasa]

If the goal is to make monkchers better... Success. If the goal was to make a viable ranger tree you have some work to do. As much as I can see the argument for wisdom based dc abilities most people will go dex for their primary stat through dws and for more reflex save. Wisdom based just overly complicates things. So does scaling the imbues with spell power and not ranged power. The capstone needs some help something like advanced ninja training; extra arrows based off your dex score would help the ranger version of the tree tremendously.

Now if you want to have wisdom/intelligence based abilities and scaling imbues based off spell power in the elf version of the tree I would be all for that.

The ranger version of the tree needs to synergize with the other two ranger trees.

[blerkington]

Hi,

The other elephant in the room for archery is manyshot + slayer arrow + adrenaline from FOTW.

One interesting way to promote some diversity in archer builds might be to split the slayer arrow ability into a choice of two things. When you select that enhancement, you get one or the other of two options, but not both.

Option A is the slayer arrow we have now. Left as is for those who like their burst DPS.

Option B adds a lot of doubleshot and reduces or removes the doubleshot penalty after manyshot. This option would cater for people who want to use their bows 24/7 and prefer more even damage output and more proc chances over big burst damage.

Math types can plug in the values for slayer arrow damage and doubleshot bonus so that neither one of the two styles gets ahead. I'd also like to suggest that there be a doubleshot penalty be added after 10k stars so that there's some parity between monk and non monk builds.

Thanks.

Edit: Didn't see Severlin's post when I wrote this. Could still be useful anyway.

[mikarddo]

Thought I saw some one complain about having to give up proc effects on a Thunderforged bow to put elemental spell power on it for Elemental Arrows. Can't find the post now but here is math to compare 150 spell power vs the other Thunderforged effects.


1st Degree Burns: 5d6 Fire, and Vulnerable, 5*3.5 = 17.5 avg damage per hit, and vulnerable which only maters if no one else is putting it on.

Touch of Flames: 10d6 Fire. 10*3.5 = 35 avg damage.


Elemental Arrows + Dwarvencrft Elemental Spell Power 7d8 scaling with 100% spell power. 7*4.5 = 31.5 base
let x be spell power not from Dwarvencraft effect.
31.5(100+x+150)/100 = 31.5 + 0.315x + 47.25

47.25 extra damage from the 150 spell power that's better then Touch of Flames and better then 1st degree burns if with out the vulnerability part which you can let some one else handle and isn't as good against trash. IMO 150 Spell power is competitive in this instance. 47.25 avg damage is roughly 13.5d6

Other 2h TF weapons get to pick all 3 tiers of effects AND get two red slots. Bows get 3 tiers + 1 red slot. Its really a no-brainer that Bows as 2h weapons should get 2 red slots. As for what to actually slot in the 3 tiers and the 2 red slots - thats a different matter but it has no real bearing on Bows needing another red slot.

[Arlathen]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~



Is the cooldown on these abilities changing?
Can Doubleshot go above 100% to provide a third arrow or more?


Would love to comment on this, but these are really important points when considering these changes.

Edit: Thanks for teasing these changes, there very relevant to the ranged players out there.

[HatsuharuZ]

People talk about monkchers, but I don't see all that many of those these days...

[Lonnbeimnech]

Think tying the Dc of banish/smite/para arrows to wisdom is a bad idea, as it rewards monkchers too much.

[Thar]

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon1.

Arcane Archer



Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank - good and common pass adjustment.
DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:

Each becomes one rank, 2 AP. - good ap reduction.
Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses - being that rangers are well rangers not casters, this is a common problem with the class and related spells. wisdom mod will be in the single digits and enhancement bonus will be limited on related gear, etc. i'd suggest 20 + Ranger level + wisdom mod + enchantment bonus if you don't want to use dex. yes moncher haters, this will boost monchers a bit but seriously dc's in epic are more than 50s that you obtain here anyway. if you want this to be useful, you need to add more to it somehow.

Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
why not evocation or a blanket to all spells which would help the useless ranger dc spells? that seems more in line with the class. i'm not charming monsters with my arrows or even hypnotizing? Is there any enchantment spell class on the tree? yes they are enchanting arrows but to do spell effects that hurt more or do other spell scoll effects.

Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.

boooo but whatever, it's still hardly going to work for a ranger in epics.

Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.

good addition, a -1 to enchantment save would be nice if you insist on keeping the saving throw enchantment.

Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
interesting

Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality1 on each hit.

Pull of Reality1: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).


interesting...


Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)

Increase base damage to 1d8.
Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower


good change here, these were always too costly for minimal useage since only one could be active at a time. will the force arrows tier up by +1 or 2 die too?

Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):

Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"


excellent. although since level 18, could be both threat and damage. keeps this out of moncher discussion which is good.

Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):

Dexterity bonus increased to +4


appropriate but without manyshot changes the 20% doubleshot is less than it seems. 10k should have the penalty, manyshot shouldn't. put both on the same timer if you need to.

Slaying Arrow:

Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)

touching slayer arrow weakens ranger greatly with lesser arrows not working in epics. (changes above aren't sufficient to make dc's work in epics) and after 3 lives in primal, what then. if this is reduced then some other buffs to the tree are needed to keep ranged combat viable.



This accomplishes a few goals:


DC based abilities2 have long been a bane of Arcane Archers. They were often extremely strong when obtained, but had no way at all to scale up towards higher levels, which has only gotten worse over time and higher levels. Reworking these abilities was a key feature we wanted to get to sooner rather than later. This has meant we've wanted to adjust how some of those abilities work as well, and in particular wanted Smiting and Banishing Arrows to feel more impactful on attacks that were not criticals (while not simply adding damage).

rework per ranger level or a stat the class uses. dex, int would be appropriate. maybe cha

Elemental Arrows were simply too weak, and also didn't scale into Epic levels. These changes should make them feel pretty powerful in heroic while also having some good options to scale into Epic. The addition of multiple choice options gives players some meaningful choices on how to progress.

good move

Those two changes, especially focusing on Spell DCs and Spell Power, help with the lore and flavor of Arcane Archer as well. While not strictly necessary for gameplay, we like to support this when we can. It also gives us a means of differentiating Arcane Archer from other potential bow users. We know this isn't a large and fully realized group of build choices, but we certainly want that open as a development path, and hopefully they won't look all that similar when we get there. Fighters focusing on bows should be viable, for instance, and wouldn't be likely to invest heavily in Spell Power or Enchantment DCs.
Some of the other changes are really quality of life, keeping up with the Joneses, and things we can quickly and easily do.


how are you helping the ranger spells? wisdom based does not help damage or to hit unless your monk. those spells snare, etc need a revamp to add ranger level into the dc and account for the bonus your providing here. that will make them useful, i would hope. saved in epic are into the 50-60s? how do you see a ranger building for this and maintaining a viable dex?

Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is, and we've been discussing some other possibilities with the Player's Council. Those abilities really need a larger redesign - potentially touching on things like a redesign of Dispels across DDO, for instance, which we just don't have time for right now. But some of us having been pushing to get some of this came out sooner rather than later!

This is, of course, a design-in-progress, subject to change from testing, math, deep insights of wisdom, a million kobolds with typewriters, or designers unscrupulously trying to fit a bit more improvement in when they should probably get on with Level 30 work.



Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, and may you always be fighting in the shade!



Footnotes, Vargouille? That's so outdated. Do you think you're in the module years?

1. (TM)

2. I'm going to recommend that when you fight in other planes, some enemy monsters should inflict Pull of Reality on player characters...

3. Developer Trivia: Some of the choices here in particular relate to technical hurdles that we've spent some time investigating working around but are probably not worth (even more) time. If you look carefully across DDO, you may note a relative lack of saving throws on most player abilities which are triggered passively. (Shiradi's Nerve Venom, for instance, was always intended to have a saving throw... it just didn't actually work, so got redesigned some at the last minute!) It's not that it's 100% impossible to do some of this kind of thing, but the amount of extra work is staggering (compared to even moderately simple abilities, can take 20-40 times as long to create). Even getting the saving throws we do have here is a bunch of extra work that doesn't really help anywhere else in the game, but at least applies to four abilities. This is also part of why they all use Enchantment Spell DC bonuses, rather than Terror Arrows using Necro... err, I mean, you are clearly enchanting your arrows in any case. So it's a lore reason! That sounds better, right? And therefore part of the flavor is that Arcane Archers specialize in Enchantment. It all comes together, somehow. (No, we're not going to base monster saves assuming you have 4 levels of Arcane Archer to get better Enchantment DCs... but if some Elf Wizard wants to go for it, well, we love somewhat crazy builds.)


P.S. I probably ramble on too much even when I don't give a Trivia warning. Maybe I shouldn't use that. Maybe I shouldn't post hours after everyone else has gone home and no one can stop me. Bwahahahaha!

see some notes in the original note above.

Too little for the poor archers. In heroic it's fine, if not a slow and agonizing combat style. Some alaracy would be nice higher in the tree to make it feel like action not pew....pew... pew... while rogue artificers are running around going pew.pew.pew...pew.pew.pew...pew.pew.pew in the same time. attack speed needs a boost. the crit range is still pityful compared to melee so a speed boost seems still ok here. much like crossbows got. bows can shoot faster in real life than a crossbow as was the original intent of pen and paper speeds of the weapons. somehow it morf'd in ddo to make crossbows king with uber crit ranges and speed.

the problem still related to not buffing monchers too much at the same time. put caps for the buff tied to ranger level. ie core adds 1 enchangement to the weapon (does not stack) what use is this with epic bows being +6 or more???. change to adds 3% alaracy ranged and 3 range power per core tier capped at ranger level or dex bonus

yes archery is safer but when you agro something and the tank can't pull it back, it's run straight at you and splat your dead as you can't cc or kill 10k mob in epic. if your the first to shoot before melee gets agro... good luck kiting. not saying this is not possible, but outside of the 7 furyshots you have how can you go any reasonable dps to kill something chasing you? some sla spells like -25% damage bubble like arty would be nice.

spells see above... need some +ranger level love

defense - cores are weak especially since you can't use all at once. add some passive mage like ability to each. core 2 - add 5 prr/mrr to leather armor or haste as sla, core 3 add globe of inv as sla core 4 add prr/mrr on his for 5 sec capped at ranger level. core 5 adds blur as sla core 6 adds 5 prr/mrr capstone adds 10% dodge or displacement as a sla or something defensive like displacement.

+1/2 die increases for the elementals - i like it as it fixes the limited usefulness of taking all 4.

main issue is the doublestrike penalty hurting rangers more than monchers which it seems it was intended for. it needs to move to 10k only or be removed. why would builds that favor doublestrike and never use manyshot be better than a normal class ability? you shouldn't want to negate a powerful abillity for rangers like that. make both to mutually exclusive toggle that gives ranger double shot and 10k gives monks some extra arrows at a longer interval but never turns off. so you get a bonus for using but can't use both at once. no? want that burst dps? then timers that impact both. no? want to keep that moncher build uber? then add in bonus to double shot at higher levels. ie 1% per ranger level at different cores so the doubleshot penalty can be overcome for rangers only.

[Grailhawk]

Incorrect.

Arcane Archers are INT based. They are Arcane. The DC should be INT-based as well.

I can get behind Int or Cha based but making it Dex bothers me.

[blerkington]

Is the cooldown on these abilities changing?
Can Doubleshot go above 100% to provide a third arrow or more?



Hi,

These are really good questions, and I would also like to see an answer to them.

The justification that large numbers of projectiles is costly of server resources is an interesting assertion too. Is manyshot in its current form that much more demanding than constant repeating crossbow fire?

Thanks.

[CeltEireson]

Yea, of course...DEX is alredy favored on other ranger trees, and INT isnt even a stat for ranger, wis IS the obvious choice.If youre not using high wis theres elemental stances to use instead wich got a HUGE boost, people are failing to see that.
IF the devs are open to allow a multiselector between dex/wis or best of dex/wis then i'd agree, but replacing WIS with another stat would be completly stupid, for reasons i mentioned before.

Ignoring for the moment the issue of elven racial AA. Given the current formula dex would be too strong, certainly for the paralysis one - it would be okay it was a single shot affair with a timer but as a stance I don't think it would work. With a little work you'd be able to get DCs into the 70s and given that they have to make a save against every single arrow, including doubleshots I assume even mobs on high epic elite would be failing regularly - compare that to how often a mage is able to cast crowd control. Even if you don't make any investment at all 1 in 20 times a mob will fail the save and be guaranteed to be paralysed for 6 seconds.

But as someone pointed out the problem is that getting a 'correct' DC for effects like this is very difficult - most times it will either underpowered or overpowered, especially as sooner or later someone will figure out a way to get practically no fail DCs. Thinking about it I think it would be better off with just a small chance to proc rather than DC based. or a single shot with a timer and higher DC. But if you allow other stats to apply rather than wisdom I think you need to look at the formula again.

And of course theres the issue of monkchers - not sure how this one would go to be honest - yes wisdom is their primary attribute so if you go down the route of wisdom as the stat for DCs they benefit a lot from it. On the other hand unless they go 18 ranger they're losing damage from the increased crit multiplier and I suspect you'll have issues maxing out both the elemental lines and the stances. From what I can see if you want to max out just DPS you'll need to invest fairly heavily in DWS as well to get the extra crit range and other benefits. So whilst monkchers will possibly be better at the DC stances (in their current state) they may not have the DPS of someone who focuses just on the damage options in AA and DWS.

I assume they didn't include ranger levels in the DC calculation because it would cause problems for elven AA - but if they could have separate formulas for AA and racial AA they could include some form of ranger level in the calculation which would offset any benefit monks gained from their higher wisdom.

[Thar]

Seriously? Wisdom as a primary stat? Are you deliberately trying to make people play monkchers as the only viable longbow class? This is, by far, the most disgusting thing I've ever heard you guys come up with. There's no excuse for this. Words simply cannot express my irritation, right now.

Are you deliberately trying to make me quit DDO?

should add ranger level to the dc which would help primary rangers more than monchers and still keep this wisdom trend if they feel that's appropriate.

[Starla70]

Not so sure about the wisdom, I think Int would be better. The paralyzing arrows don't work well in higher content. I am not sure how that will help. I agree, I don't want them to become over powered and be a AOE thing. I also agree that my account will most likely never see a monkcher. I think having wisdom as a main stat for AA will just strengthen Monkchers again. I think the summon arrows should be more then 100 and should scale.

[Grailhawk]

Is the cooldown on these abilities changing?
Can Doubleshot go above 100% to provide a third arrow or more?


Would love to comment on this, but these are really important points when considering these changes.

Edit: Thanks for teasing these changes, there very relevant to the ranged players out there.

Ya there's too much double shot spill over with this proposal you can get a good 40-60% Doubleshot before manyshot making the Doubleshot portion of the buff really week. If this is what they are going for they should be looking at adding 400 Ranged power.


Hi,

These are really good questions, and I would also like to see an answer to them.

The justification that large numbers of projectiles is costly of server resources is an interesting assertion too. Is manyshot in its current form that much more demanding than constant repeating crossbow fire?

Thanks.

Its the same thing they told us when they nerfed two weapon fighting and alacrity in U5.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Not so sure about the wisdom, I think Int would be better. The paralyzing arrows don't work well in higher content. I am not sure how that will help. I agree, I don't want them to become over powered and be a AOE thing. I also agree that my account will most likely never see a monkcher. I think having wisdom as a main stat for AA will just strengthen Monkchers again. I think the summon arrows should be more then 100 and should scale.

They are 100% returning. It makes no difference if you have 1 arrow or a billion.

[Severlin]

Is the cooldown on these abilities changing?
Can Doubleshot go above 100% to provide a third arrow or more?


Would love to comment on this, but these are really important points when considering these changes.

Edit: Thanks for teasing these changes, there very relevant to the ranged players out there.

The cooldown doesn't change.

Doubleshot will only provide one extra projectile, even if it goes over 100%. At the higher end this will mean that the ability essentially just rounds out your Doubleshot to 100%.

Sev~

[Aletys]

This. Definitely. TWF gets two slots so should bows.

Also, I am not understanding the uproar about using the wisdom mod for paralyzing. You can now max dex, ignore str, in, char, put a decent amount into con and dump into wis. Using that method I am still at 40 wis or so at lvl 28. and either 58 or 64 dex depending on which ED I am in and just at or over 1000 hps. So, 40 wis would be 20+15+ band immaterial (+6) and whatever other spell focus enchantment feats you take... so like 41 being a conservative estimate? That is higher than that? Better than the original 37. Also, you can craft a enchantment focus bow instead of paralyze at tier 2.

I plan on going the elemental arrows route, but need clarification on exactly what sources of spell power will boost it.

I believe that except for PDK's, Paladins use Charisma for their spells. Perhaps they should be changed so that their melee damage is based entirely off Charisma as well, rather than using strength. That argument is nuts.


Thought I saw some one complain about having to give up proc effects on a Thunderforged bow to put elemental spell power on it for Elemental Arrows. Can't find the post now but here is math to compare 150 spell power vs the other Thunderforged effects.


1st Degree Burns: 5d6 Fire, and Vulnerable, 5*3.5 = 17.5 avg damage per hit, and vulnerable which only maters if no one else is putting it on.

Touch of Flames: 10d6 Fire. 10*3.5 = 35 avg damage.


Elemental Arrows + Dwarvencrft Elemental Spell Power 7d8 scaling with 100% spell power. 7*4.5 = 31.5 base
let x be spell power not from Dwarvencraft effect.
31.5(100+x+150)/100 = 31.5 + 0.315x + 47.25

47.25 extra damage from the 150 spell power that's better then Touch of Flames and better then 1st degree burns if with out the vulnerability part which you can let some one else handle and isn't as good against trash. IMO 150 Spell power is competitive in this instance. 47.25 avg damage is roughly 13.5d6

And if you're soloing? And you forgot c) Dragon's Edge: Passive: Armor-Piercing 35%. On Crit: 33 to 105 Bleeding Damage. Armor-Piercing is a very important property for a toon using physical weapons.

And what does an AA do before they get to level 26 and can use a thunderforged bow? Or, while they're farming all those ingots and scales to make/upgrade your TF bow? Where are the sources of spell power going to come from? Not every bow in the game has a red slot. And, they only get one. So, am I going to be changing augments with a tool kit in the middle of a fight to get the right spellpower on my bow? Do I need four versions of every bow to cover the 4 possible spellpowers? Inventory in DDO is already a pain. This will be a nightmare.


Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

Yes, and Paladin spells are Charisma based. Perhaps their melee damage should be based on Charisma instead of Strength, based on your reasoning.


Yea, of course...DEX is alredy favored on other ranger trees, and INT isnt even a stat for ranger, wis IS the obvious choice.If youre not using high wis theres elemental stances to use instead wich got a HUGE boost, people are failing to see that.
IF the devs are open to allow a multiselector between dex/wis or best of dex/wis then i'd agree, but replacing WIS with another stat would be completly stupid, for reasons i mentioned before.

Yes, and Dex SHOULD be favored for ALL the ranger trees. That is how it is done for every other class in the game. I could live with a multi-selector, but frankly I'm against that as it will make Monkchers even more powerful than they are now, and there will still be no reason to play an AA instead of a Moncher.


Yeah, without a solution to the double shot penalty for rangers the capstone is weak. With no double shot penalty capstone is reasonable.

The scaling of arrows is not really any use past low levels as its only the higher of bow enhancement bonus or arrows that counts and most epic bows are in the range +5 - +12.

Agreed, it is ridiculously weak. Make the bow/arrow core enhancements stacking, rather than replacements. Right now, as soon as an AA gets into epics, they lose one of the main benefits of ALL their cores. What other class is this done to? And add something more. Look at the capstones for the other recently added/revised classes. They have capstones that make sense, and which reward you for sticking to the class. This does not. No one is going to bother with this capstone the way it is written.


If the goal is to make monkchers better... Success. If the goal was to make a viable ranger tree you have some work to do. As much as I can see the argument for wisdom based dc abilities most people will go dex for their primary stat through dws and for more reflex save. Wisdom based just overly complicates things. So does scaling the imbues with spell power and not ranged power. The capstone needs some help something like advanced ninja training; extra arrows based off your dex score would help the ranger version of the tree tremendously.

Now if you want to have wisdom/intelligence based abilities and scaling imbues based off spell power in the elf version of the tree I would be all for that.

The ranger version of the tree needs to synergize with the other two ranger trees.

Not sure I would want this stuff just moved to the elf tree, but you are absolutely correct on your other points.


Other 2h TF weapons get to pick all 3 tiers of effects AND get two red slots. Bows get 3 tiers + 1 red slot. Its really a no-brainer that Bows as 2h weapons should get 2 red slots. As for what to actually slot in the 3 tiers and the 2 red slots - thats a different matter but it has no real bearing on Bows needing another red slot.

This. Absolutely. And it applies to all bows, not just long bows.

[Grailhawk]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~


This is a HUGE nerf to manyshot

Manyshot on live is a x4 multiplier

1.8*1.8 = 3.24 damage multiplier and that's best case assuming you have 0 DS and 0 RP once you have more then 2 the total multiplier will go down.



Simple example

base damage is 100
assuming we fire 50 attacks in 20 secods base
total damage in 20 seconds is 5000

manyshot meanswe fire 4 arrows instead of one so 50*4 = 200
200*100 = 20000 damage in 20 seconds of many shot

80 mp and 80 doublestrike
180 damge per hit
50*1.8 = 90
90*180 = 16200 damage

1 - 16200/20000 = 0.19 or a 19% reduction in power


Thats a nerf on base. Note that since manyshot multplies Ranged Power this was the best case since 80 RP isn't going to be as much of an total increase to damage done when you have a base RP already



Now example assuing you already have 100 RP
base is 100
50 arrows per 20 second base

100 * (100+100)/100 = 200
200 * 50 = 10000 damge in 20 base

with live manyshot
200*4*50 = 40000 damage in 20 seconds

with new manyshot
100 * (100+180)/100 = 280
280*1.8*50 = 25200

1- 25200/40000 = 37% reduction


You need to add a ton of damage to the tree to come close to the damage you would loose from this kind of a nerf to manyshot.

[Arlathen]

The cooldown doesn't change.

Doubleshot will only provide one extra projectile, even if it goes over 100%. At the higher end this will mean that the ability essentially just rounds out your Doubleshot to 100%.

Sev~

Thanks for the answer, Sev. I'll formulate some feedback based on this.

[Grailhawk]

And if you're soloing? And you forgot c) Dragon's Edge: Passive: Armor-Piercing 35%. On Crit: 33 to 105 Bleeding Damage. Armor-Piercing is a very important property for a toon using physical weapons.

Dragons Edge is a Tier 2 effect Spell Power is a Tier 1 I didn't forget anything but you don't know what you are talking about.



Yes, and Paladin spells are Charisma based. Perhaps their melee damage should be based on Charisma instead of Strength, based on your reasoning.

That's exactly what 4e does makes spell and melee damage and everything else based on one stat. I'm saying not to do that.

[Severlin]

This is a HUGE nerf to manyshot

Manyshot on live is a x4 multiplier

1.8*1.8 = 3.24 damage multiplier and that's best case assuming you have 0 DS and 0 RP once you have more then 2 the total multiplier will go down.



Simple example

base damage is 100
assuming we fire 50 attacks in 20 secods base
total damage in 20 seconds is 5000

manyshot meanswe fire 4 arrows instead of one so 50*4 = 200
200*100 = 20000 damage in 20 seconds of many shot

80 mp and 80 doublestrike
180 damge per hit
50*1.8 = 90
90*180 = 16200 damage

1 - 16200/20000 = 0.19 or a 19% reduction in power


Thats a nerf on base. Note that since manyshot multplies Ranged Power this was the best case since 80 RP isn't going to be as much of an total increase to damage done when you have a base RP already



Now example assuing you already have 100 RP
base is 100
50 arrows per 20 second base

100 * (100+100)/100 = 200
200 * 50 = 10000 damge in 20 base

with live manyshot
200*4*50 = 40000 damage in 20 seconds

with new manyshot
100 * (100+180)/100 = 280
280*1.8*50 = 25200

1- 25200/40000 = 37% reduction


You need to add a ton of damage to the tree to come close to the damage you would loose from this kind of a nerf to manyshot.

You need to take into account that DPS after these abilities are finished will be increased by your Doubleshot since there is no longer a debuff.

Sev~

[barecm]

I believe that except for PDK's, Paladins use Charisma for their spells. Perhaps they should be changed so that their melee damage is based entirely off Charisma as well, rather than using strength. That argument is nuts.



And if you're soloing? And you forgot c) Dragon's Edge: Passive: Armor-Piercing 35%. On Crit: 33 to 105 Bleeding Damage. Armor-Piercing is a very important property for a toon using physical weapons.

And what does an AA do before they get to level 26 and can use a thunderforged bow? Or, while they're farming all those ingots and scales to make/upgrade your TF bow? Where are the sources of spell power going to come from? Not every bow in the game has a red slot. And, they only get one. So, am I going to be changing augments with a tool kit in the middle of a fight to get the right spellpower on my bow? Do I need four versions of every bow to cover the 4 possible spellpowers? Inventory in DDO is already a pain. This will be a nightmare.



Yes, and Paladin spells are Charisma based. Perhaps their melee damage should be based on Charisma instead of Strength, based on your reasoning.



Yes, and Dex SHOULD be favored for ALL the ranger trees. That is how it is done for every other class in the game. I could live with a multi-selector, but frankly I'm against that as it will make Monkchers even more powerful than they are now, and there will still be no reason to play an AA instead of a Moncher.



Agreed, it is ridiculously weak. Make the bow/arrow core enhancements stacking, rather than replacements. Right now, as soon as an AA gets into epics, they lose one of the main benefits of ALL their cores. What other class is this done to? And add something more. Look at the capstones for the other recently added/revised classes. They have capstones that make sense, and which reward you for sticking to the class. This does not. No one is going to bother with this capstone the way it is written.



Not sure I would want this stuff just moved to the elf tree, but you are absolutely correct on your other points.



This. Absolutely. And it applies to all bows, not just long bows.

Once this hits Lamannia for testing and you can see how much more damage the elemental arrows are giving, this whole dialogue will be a moot point. Without anything beyond what is being proposed here by the devs, I can safely say I will be going the elemental route only putting enough into the other side of the tree to get Slayer arrows. My ask is that they break the requirements to get slayer arrow since having to sink points into paralyzing and terror arrows will be a waste.

[Kielbasa]

You need to add a ton of damage to the tree to come close to the damage you would loose from this kind of a nerf to manyshot.

This. With this suggested nerf to manyshot you are going to need to put some massive boosts to bows in here to get people to use them over shurikens or repeaters. If the change goes through you will have relegated manyshot to a swap to bow ability activate then swap back to shuriken or repeater for the ranged power boost.

All I've seen so far with with the changes is that the devs are unsure of how to make bow combat viable versus other ranged combat styles. This is not encouraging.

[Severlin]

This. With this suggested nerf to manyshot you are going to need to put some massive boosts to bows in here to get people to use them over shurikens or repeaters. If the change goes through you will have relegated manyshot to a swap to bow ability activate then swap back to shuriken or repeater for the ranged power boost.

All I've seen so far with with the changes is that the devs are unsure of how to make bow combat viable versus other ranged combat styles. This is not encouraging.

There is a large potential increase in DPS with the loss of the Doubleshot debuff. We have to account for that.

Good point on the weapon switch. Our plan is that the short term buffs end if you unequip your weapon during Manyshot or Ten Thousand Stars.

Sev~

[btolson]

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Sev~

Kinda still makes gearing/speccing for doubleshot an awkward/bad thing, unless you want to change doubleshot > 100 to have a chance to fire a third shot.

Maybe this can be 3-dimensional instead?

BAB*2 to Doubleshot
BAB*2 to Alacrity (edit: actually should probably be BAB*3 to Alacrity, since bows have reload animation unaffected by it)
BAB*4 to RP

[nibel]

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon1.

I know this is a lost cause, but I still want to voice that I would heavily prefer that AA was removed as a Ranger tree, and become an elf-only tree, like it is supposed to be. This way, you can balance this tree against a 66 AP pool maximum (since unlocking AA requires at least 14) instead of 80 like it is currently.


Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank

Neat. Any chance to make Energy Resistance Boost also apply a very large elemental absorption bonus for the same time, like 20/30/50% absorption?


DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:

Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.
Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality1 on each hit.

Pull of Reality1: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).



Except by the wis-based DC (I think it should be Int because arcane), I like all proposed changes. Pull of Reality should not be a "chance" to proc, however, since the stacks fade fast (5 stacks every 3 seconds).

About the DC, small suggestion: 10 + half ranger level + Dex|Wis modifier on Ranger tree, and 20 + Int modifier on Elf tree? Both keep adding Enchantment bonus. Monkchers that use Elf AA to get access to higher cores lose the synergy, and ranger splashes are inherently weaker than pure rangers.


Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)

Increase base damage to 1d8.
Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower


Since the arrows scale with Spell Power, and neither ranger tree gives inherent non-positive spellpower (and the class don't have Spellcraft as a class skill), add +10~20 specific elemental spell power on each Elemental Arrow (eg, Acid Arrow gives +10~20 Acid spell power), and +5~10 Universal Spell Power to "Elemental Damage" option.

Will Force Arrows stay as 1d6 damage, since Force is less resistible than other elements (which I actually encourage), or will it also be bumped to 1d8?


Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):

Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"


I would HEAVILY ask for that benefit to be only on Ranger AA, and not on Elf AA.


Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):

Dexterity bonus increased to +4


Since you made the tree depend on Wisdom for their DCs, and nothing on the tree actually benefits from Dexterity beyond basic bow to hit (dex to damage is on DWS tree), change that to +4 Wisdom, or +2 Dex and Wis (and if following my suggestion of Elf AA being int-based, then +4 Int or +2 Dex and Int there).


Slaying Arrow:

Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)


Slaying Arrow is on par with "finishing" abilities like Merciful Shot on DWS or Execute on Assassin, but it lack a conditional situation (on the other hand, have a SP cost that can be adjusted for balance, and a longer cooldown). The main problem is the synergy with Manyshot AND Adrenaline. If one of those two abilities suddenly stop working with Slaying Arrow as it works today, Slaying Arrow remain powerful, but not a game breaker.

Things like Manyshot only allowing Adrenaline to empower the first hit (like it does with cleave-like abilities), or Adrenaline adds Melee Power instead of percentage damage boost, or if the ways to recover Adrenaline only works with melee attacks (Fury Eternal, Unbridled Fury counter) should be enough to keep Slaying Arrow as is.

[Vellrad]

As monkchers are mostly the only build with WIS as a main stat, having ONLY Wisdom is unfair to the class AA is made for. To satisfy multiple parties, the DCs should work like this:

Base DC+ Stat modifer that your bow's to-hit uses + the other bonuses

This way, three options are available for AA:
Int-based using Harper, to the boon of ARCANE casters
Dex-based using DWS' Improved Finesse/Elven Grace, for elven ____, and the ranger in general
Wis-based (maybe add enhancement that allows WIS to damage, possibly to-hit for pure ranger w/o ki compatability portion?), so the monkchers don't destroy the forums in rage at nerfs.


There's no reason it couldn't be coded, as assassins get the option of INT or DEX for their DCs.

Make it to damage, so people with bow str can use str for something.

Who got bow str feat? oh, IDK, maybe 100% people with at least 1 ranger level?

[Lord_Jaffacake]

I enjoy playing ranged builds and the proposed changes look fun to play. Keep up the good work Devs!

The only points I would add are below

Questions

1) Will elemental imbues benefit from spell lore?
2) Will elemental attacks benefit from spell power and/or spell lore?
2) Can you create a few named bows/throwing weapons with caster abilities, eg spell power (even if universal/potency)/lore with Enchantment DC bonus?

Suggestions


1) Add Intelligence along with the proposed Wisdom as a dc modifier to dc imbues

2) Add Wisdom to damage as a core ability gained at level 12 "while a bow or throwing weapon is equipped"

3) Add stacking spell power at 2 points gained per point spent in the AA tree. "while a bow or throwing weapon is equipped". This could be a good mechanic to tweak the elemental imbues/attacks if they are too weak/strong.

4) If elemental changes are too weak another option to tweak it could be to add stacking spell lore at levels 12, 18, 20 (2 points per each of the 3 cores?) "while a bow or throwing weapon is equipped"

5) At level 20 remove +4 dexterity and replace with +4 wisdom and +4 intelligence, also add n% stacking ranged alarcity

6) Allow each core ability to add 1 point each to the dc of any ranger spells, also level 20 capstone adds an additional 3 points. Stacks with spell focus feats.

Comments

1) Crit multiplier at level 18 is great. Works nicely with the +1 critical threat range gained in deepwood if select it.

2) Very good synergy and also good difficulty choices if go AA via the "Elf route" some builds would have to give us caster weapons/enhancement points etc. Cleric/Favoured Soul with Deity bow weapons look useful. Could also work as a niche with other classes.

3) Double shot and ranged alarcity I know aren't easily to change especially due to manyshot, and it will probably end up needing to be done at a later time. Any feedback you can give though would be apreciated

[bbqzor]

There is a large potential increase in DPS with the loss of the Doubleshot debuff. We have to account for that.

Except there isnt, no one kept using a bow during the old penalty window at just the base rate. Either you used 10k etc to keep shooting multiple times, or you swapped back to melee and used MS just for a ranged burst (ie, the classic ranger style).

So really... its a nerf. And it counters a RELATIVE boost. Even with no penalty after MS, there is no buff. Its just the same as it would be normally.

Youre turning MS into a doubleshot action boost. Thats a nerf. Straight up.

Do not do this. Go back to the drawing board. This is lame. Thanks.

[Vargouille]

Not quite caught up, but my posts already get too long...


I suspect the devs are aiming to make you choose between being good dps or crowd control with lower dps by forcing you to concentrate on wisdom to have the cc stances etc work. Which I think is fair enough.

Between Aa and DWS we can get +1 to both crit.multiplier and threat range which is a significant increase, plus what looks like substantial increase in damage from elemental or force arrows. So in AA id say its a choice between focusing on the special stances or focusing on elemental damage.

How good the elemental damage is depends on the scaling, but even at 100% it would be possibly up to 14d8 damage if I read it right with just 100 spellpower? And there are plenty of items that give spellpower boosts for various elements and most named bows have a red augment as well, so I don't think getting a reasonable amount of spellpower would be that difficult

With regards to requests for speed increases for ranger I don't think that its a good idea, as it is a ranger can avoid most damage by virtue of attacking at range and kiting if needs be. Increasing their speed to a point where they can simply outrun most mobs would possibly make life a little too easy for them especially when combined with the dps increase and cc elements.

We agree with many of these thoughts.


Getting everything shouldn't be easy. Like many casters, it's difficult to maximize Spell Power and DCs on the same character. You can make a good effort. Arcane Archers also get very strong very-low-resource physical ranged damage on top of that. Yes, it may be hard to maximize your Arcane Archer's physical ranged damage, magical damage, and DCs. Since that's more than nearly any other class or build gets, it should be terrifically difficult.

Does this mean you are going to be forced to spec for Wisdom? Well, if you don't, your DCs are probably higher than before. Paralyzing Arrow DC on live caps out at 26. Just taking Paralyzing Arrows itself puts you at 21, with a 10 Wisdom. Putting in some effort towards Wisdom and Enchantment DCs (which applies to Enchantment spells in addition to these four stances) can help a lot.
We absolutely expect some players may mostly ignore Paralyzing Arrows much of the time and focus on Elemental damage. That's fine and not a bad thing, because it means not all AAs look the same.


We expect some players to try to build for all three of Physical Ranged, Magical Ranged, and DCs. That's going to be a hard build to make. Consider it a challenge. We're not going out of our way to make it easy for you. (Dexterity is probably the worst choice for the DC-driver stat for this reason, though Constitution is close.)
This enables a DC-based build for Arcane Archers that never existed, particular for epic. The DC formula is identical to what a level 10 (Ranger) spell would be. With a bow it's trickier, but you can probably still get pretty close to the same caster-stat and Enchantment DCs as a Sorc or Wizard (roughly). While there may yet be problems to solve with Epic DCs and monster saves, we think this is an excellent "target" to aim for with Arcane Archer DCs.
Movement speed is probably already fine for Arcane Archers. I'm worried I'm being too generous giving a no-save -10% movement speed to AAs!







How will this work for the Elven version?

Most things will be the same. We are open to there being differences.

For instance, it is interesting to include Ranger level in DC calculations. And we do discuss things like pure-class Elven Monkchers (who won't get Deepwood Stalker bonuses but do get other things, etc.) Realistically, including Ranger would probably mean reducing the 20 in the DC calculations that coworkers tell me I've given out too generously - that 20 could just be Ranger level or 10 + Ranger level, etc.

But we're not firm on any definite differences right now. We're happy for players to point out places this is good or bad or interesting.




So, kindly dont nerf (...)monkchers.

Let's re-state our stance on monkchers:

Monkchers should be a viable top-tier ranged DPS build.
Non-monkchers should also be viable top-tier ranged DPS builds.


In particular, I personally frequently bring up this goal (for instance, when discussing 10k and Manyshot): The best build ranged should not require monk levels.

I will also personally, at threat of harm from my coworkers, encourage you to discuss and math as much monkcher vs. non-monkcher as possible. I truly absolutely do not want monk levels required in all the best ranged builds. I also truly absolutely want monkcher to exist as a top ranged build. This is hard, especially with trying to keep overall changes sane and avoid breaking existing builds wherever possible.

For instance, we could make 10k & Manyshot fully exclusive timers. But then every monkcher would need to get rid of one of those, which is essentially a forced rebuild to run your existing character(s). We really hate doing those. (We do not in any way hate making new builds that are awesome and fun and may draw you away from existing builds - because usually you could keep playing your existing build and it would work as it has. If new stuff is exciting and awesome... well, that's simply not a thing to avoid, that's a goal to reach for every time. Note that this is NOT the same as "new things should be OP", which is not a goal and not desirable.)




Rangers DUMP Wis!

(...)

The ONLY Spellpower a Ranger should have is Devotion!

That may be how some Rangers have been built in the past.

That doesn't mean it's how Arcane Archers should always be built in the future.

Especially if they want to be good at ranged physical, ranged magical, crowd control, and healing. If you want to be king of everything, that should be hard.






Are you going to drop the AP cost of shattermantle and dispelling shot to 1 each?

Some (other) AP costs may be subject to change, yes.



O think I get it now each of Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrow gives +1 so at total of +4?

This is correct.


I think the changes look pretty good. Some of us would like to see rangers get a bonus to run speed. Could that be put in this tree in say tier 1? Also, will rangers be getting some sort of "spell" pass? Our spells could really use a boost, revamp, redue....:) Really enjoying my tempest/deepwood ranger!

There's probably no real need for additional run speed for most ranged characters, especially with the new 10% slow on Paralyzing Arrows - if that's what you need at the time.

We may look into Ranger spells at some point, but this is not that point.


Also, is double-shot working with all shots on a repeater WAI?

Doubleshot is currently intended to have a chance on each shot on a repeater at 1/3 the normal chance.


Dispelling shot: x%/y%/x% Chance to cast Silence. Target cannot cast spells for n seconds.

Shattermantle shot: Reduces MRR by x/y/z for n/n/n seconds.
Interesting ideas. We probably won't get to them Very Soon.




AA *NEEDS* steady, sustained damage in the tree (which I guess means ranged power, or bow animations being redone the way repeaters were to function in the new higher-damage environment). You keep forgetting that Arcane Archer is a racial tree for elves and half-elves and that means any class can be an AA. Sticking all the steady damage in Deepwood Sniper and presuming AA's can afford to take extra feats for ranged power (because rangers get the core archery feats for free) cripples racial builds.

Please read about the Elemental damage increase. It's pretty massive. Plus critical damage multiplier. Most of the changes increase damage. If there is something you are seeing here that isn't what you are looking for, or something you aren't seeing that you want, please be very specific.

I want to understand your feedback, but I just don't get what you are trying to say.


PLEASE stop dismissing racial AA's when you make these changes.

Don't panic. Our apologies for not being more explicit: Nearly all changes are expected to be done in Ranger Arcane Archer and Elven Arcane Archer. It's possible there will be some differences. It's something we've discussed but not concluded anything about.


Being AA the "caster" tree, I'm gonna ask this here aswell.

I've got it, you're not gonna add new spells, despite ranger clearly needs them.
The question is: why?

I mean, I really know how much time it takes for you, but you did it for other classes.
So why aren't you going to do this for the class that needs it more?

"Spells" are not something anyone directly needs per se. What do you want these spells to do? What are you desiring but not getting?

Rangers clearly don't need "spells" more than anything else. We're pretty confident with our priorities here. Adding new Ranger spells is not more important than any DWS, Tempest, or AA changes we've looked at recently. We understand if you disagree, but in the abstract it's extremely hard to understand why you feel "spells" generically need to be added.



2. Paralyzing Arrows
I like the on-save addition, but it would be further cool if this on-save effect stacked up to 5 times.

7. Dodge & Run speed
I was hoping to see some potential low hanging fruit in terms of Dodge or Run speed in this tree, since it didn't make it into Tempest or DWS, and on reflection I think it makes more sense for it to be in this tree somewhere?


Arcane Archers might be happy to have more run speed or the ability to reduce enemy movement by 50%... but they absolutely don't need it and it probably makes for more boring gameplay.

They also shouldn't really need Dodge the stat - they need to dodge in a more physical (digital-physical) sense.

[Arlathen]

1. Monkcher vs. Ranger
This is the biggest issue for me. These changes don't really do anything for the imbalance between running a Monkcher versus running a pure Ranger. The Monkcher still has the huge advantage of taking both feats and having much higher RoF over the Pure Ranger. A Pure Ranger is still stuck with just Manyshot.

Note that when I speculate on 'Pure Rangers', I'm generalizing to full-time Bow users that don't have Monk levels and 10K Stars access.

2. Is this a nerf?
Even from my untrained, non-mathmatical point of view this looks like a big nerf to these abilities. New Manyshot will easily cap a character at shooting 2 arrows per shot, and to be honest since there is enough passive Doubleshot in the game right now 10K Stars will also cap you out at 100% Doubleshot.

I don't think the Ranged Power bonuses come anywhere close to making up for the sheer lack of Rate of Fire these abilities are now lacking.
I also don't think that removing the Doubleshot penalty is a significant enough DPS increase to warrant a RoF nerf.

In simple terms, we lose 200% Doubleshot from our 20s Manyshot window, and gain 50%-ish Doubleshot over the course of the following 60s?

I'm happy to be proved wrong mathematically on this point, however :)

3. Suggestions
If the design intention is to both reduce RoF for server performance and also balance the abilities in terms of usefulness against each other, as well as promoting either the Monkcher build or a Pure Ranger as a ranged class, then how about something along the lines of the following:



Manyshot - Duration 20s, Cooldown 40s. For the duration of this effect, you gain Doubleshot equal to 4x your BAB. You also gain Ranged Power equal to 4x your Character level.
10K Stars - Restrict it to Throwing Weapons only.


I'll be really sad to see the 4-shot volleys go on Manyshot, but atleast you gain some considerable uptime on the ability to replace that lost RoF. This then allows you to remove 10K Stars out of the equation by restricting it to thrown weapons only. Monkchers still have Manyshot and 50% Uptime on this ability, and the Ranged Power of Manyshot can be altered to balance the actual damage output of the ability against what we have today.

[FedoraSire]

Make the DCs work Base+Stat Mod of Bow's To-Hit+Other Bonuses

Make it to damage, so people with bow str can use str for something.

Who got bow str feat? oh, IDK, maybe 100% people with at least 1 ranger level?

Harper Bowmen/Elves count in the revamp too :P. Even Bow STR-ers have to use dexterity, but I can see your point.

/ Half-Signed, Half Unsigned?

[DagazUlf]

At first glance, I did not care that the main attribute used here would be WIS. I just thought, well, it's a Ranger, so WIS.

Upon looking at everything this enhancement tree does, however, the vast majority of those abilities seem rooted in Arcane trickery. Not Divine charlatanism.

I'm now firmly in the camp that thinks WIS is the incorrect stat to be using here. It definitely screams for INT.

[Augon]

Slaying Arrow:

Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)




I do not see the issue with this ability. This is a single target fixed damage attack. Assassins have assassinate and Swashbucklers have Coup De Gras. Both of which are insta-kills. Enlightened Spirit has the ridiculous Shining Through. (Ridiculous, but funny). Many other trees have very important attacks or abilities in Tier 5 that the rest of the tree kinda builds towards. If anything, an attacked called "Slayer Arrow" should, perhaps, Slay. I've always thought it should have a chance to instakill. Granted, at level 12, this is a pretty substantial attack. In epics, since it does not scale in any way, not so much.

Combine nerfing Slayer Arrow with the proposed nerfing of Manyshot, Arcane Archers will not be pushed ahead to be on the same playing field with other classes. In fact, they will fall behind further.

[unbongwah]

Arcane Archers are INT based. They are Arcane. The DC should be INT-based as well.
It's not a wizard-only PrC, though. IIRC, you just need to be able to cast arcane spells to take the AA PrC (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Arcane_archer), which means bards and sorcs (who are CHA-based) could also be AAs. I had a bard-based AA in NWN 1 who was a lot of fun.

In any case, though, as I keep saying, it's pointless to keep running back to PnP rules. For one thing, PnP AAs don't have any inherent CC abilities like Terror / Paralyzing Arrows; and Arrow of Death was an instakill with a fixed DC so low (20) it would render it useless in DDO. Curiously, though, I don't see anyone clamoring to implement those rules whenever they invoke PnP D&D... :cool:




DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:

Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.


Normally I'm not a fan of builds where one stat is your dmg mod while another stat is your DC mod (see also: monks); but in this case it seems reasonable. This obviously helps WIS-based monkchers, of course; but it also helps WIS-based elf / HE casters who want to mix in AA. [It's too bad all of the divine classes are weaksauce choices for Enchantment spells, though.] So you can go WIS-based and become a ranged CC specialist; or you decide to ditch WIS, focus on your DPS stat (STR/DEX/INT depending on build), load up on Elemental Arrows, and ignore these DC-based abilities entirely. The idea that all abilities need to be equally useful to all AAs is silly, IMHO; good game balance is about making choices which involve reasonable tradeoffs, not finding the optimal paths to the "I WIN!" builds.




Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):

Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"



Any particular reason this is in the lvl 18 core rather than the lvl 12 core like DWS & Tempest? Probably has multiclassing implications I'm not considering yet, since this affects both rgr and racial AAs.




Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):

Dexterity bonus increased to +4



Whatever the rationale for the Doubleshot penalties in DDO, it's clear they've caused archers to fall behind other ranged builds. It's long overdue to add something like "The Doubleshot penalty from Manyshot is reduced to 20 seconds" to the AA capstone, while leaving 10K Stars alone. So non-monkcher AAs can achieve reasonable Doubleshot bonuses while MS is on cooldown; monkcher AAs gain some benefit, but still have to contend with their Doubleshot penalties from 10K Stars.

I would like to see DEX-based archers get some more love, though; it's kinda silly that the only DEX-based ranged ability for archers is Executioner's Shot. One possibility: Add a feat - let's call it "Hail of Arrows" for now, since Rain of Arrows is taken - which mimics 10K Stars, except (A) it only works with bows, (B) it's based on DEX not WIS, (C) you need at least 6 rgr lvls to take it (just as you need 6 monk lvls to take 10K Stars), and (D) it's on a shared cooldown with 10K Stars with the same Doubleshot penalty. So you can use HoA or 10K to complement Manyshot, but there's no point in having both abilities b/c you can't cycle thru all three. Monkchers are neither nerfed nor buffed, while DEX rgrs can add a new tool to their repertoire; but just like monkchers, you have to balance the extra burst DPS from HoA vs the Doubleshot penalty you incur afterward. [DEX-based AA rgrs will do more DPS, WIS-based monkchers have higher DCs for AA abilities - again, a reasonable tradeoff, IMHO.]

Finally, I hope Turbine will be using this pass to clarify which AA abilities are meant to work with all ranged atks and which are meant to be short-/longbow-only. It's very frustrating when you don't know what's WAI, what's broken, and what's a bug / exploit.

[Steve_Howe]

At first glance, I did not care that the main attribute used here would be WIS. I just thought, well, it's a Ranger, so WIS.

Upon looking at everything this enhancement tree does, however, the vast majority of those abilities seem rooted in Arcane trickery. Not Divine charlatanism.

I'm now firmly in the camp that thinks WIS is the incorrect stat to be using here. It definitely screams for INT.

Or CHA.

Arcane stats are INT or CHA.

CHA could help to trick folks (Bluff, anyone?).


Definitely not WIS, though.

[Delacroix21]

People talk about monkchers, but I don't see all that many of those these days...

Good point. The general playerbase is always at least 4 updates behind what the current power builds are. I can tell you that EE solo builds, monkcher is preety low on the list now, same with shiradi thrower builds.


Bards, barbs, paladins, trees, locks etc. so outclass archers now.

[Vellrad]

Harper Bowmen/Elves count in the revamp too :P. Even Bow STR-ers have to use dexterity, but I can see your point.

/ Half-Signed, Half Unsigned?

elfs already can get dex to damage so they're covered with dc= stat used for bow damage

[Arlathen]

Getting everything shouldn't be easy. Like many casters, it's difficult to maximize Spell Power and DCs on the same character. You can make a good effort. Arcane Archers also get very strong very-low-resource physical ranged damage on top of that. Yes, it may be hard to maximize your Arcane Archer's physical ranged damage, magical damage, and DCs. Since that's more than nearly any other class or build gets, it should be terrifically difficult.
We expect some players to try to build for all three of Physical Ranged, Magical Ranged, and DCs. That's going to be a hard build to make. Consider it a challenge. We're not going out of our way to make it easy for you. (Dexterity is probably the worst choice for the DC-driver stat for this reason, though Constitution is close.)
This enables a DC-based build for Arcane Archers that never existed, particular for epic. The DC formula is identical to what a level 10 (Ranger) spell would be. With a bow it's trickier, but you can probably still get pretty close to the same caster-stat and Enchantment DCs as a Sorc or Wizard (roughly). While there may yet be problems to solve with Epic DCs and monster saves, we think this is an excellent "target" to aim for with Arcane Archer DCs.
Movement speed is probably already fine for Arcane Archers. I'm worried I'm being too generous giving a no-save -10% movement speed to AAs!



Let's re-state our stance on monkchers:

Monkchers should be a viable top-tier ranged DPS build.
Non-monkchers should also be viable top-tier ranged DPS builds.


In particular, I personally frequently bring up this goal (for instance, when discussing 10k and Manyshot): The best build ranged should not require monk levels.

I will also personally, at threat of harm from my coworkers, encourage you to discuss and math as much monkcher vs. non-monkcher as possible. I truly absolutely do not want monk levels required in all the best ranged builds. I also truly absolutely want monkcher to exist as a top ranged build. This is hard, especially with trying to keep overall changes sane and avoid breaking existing builds wherever possible.

For instance, we could make 10k & Manyshot fully exclusive timers. But then every monkcher would need to get rid of one of those, which is essentially a forced rebuild to run your existing character(s). We really hate doing those. (We do not in any way hate making new builds that are awesome and fun and may draw you away from existing builds - because usually you could keep playing your existing build and it would work as it has. If new stuff is exciting and awesome... well, that's simply not a thing to avoid, that's a goal to reach for every time. Note that this is NOT the same as "new things should be OP", which is not a goal and not desirable.)


Arcane Archers might be happy to have more run speed or the ability to reduce enemy movement by 50%... but they absolutely don't need it and it probably makes for more boring gameplay.

They also shouldn't really need Dodge the stat - they need to dodge in a more physical (digital-physical) sense.

This is all interesting feedback, Varg. Some further tidbits for myself:

1. AA play style - DC 'Casting'
I'm actually enthused to make a "DC-Caster" style Arcane Archer, in all honesty. There's a lot to build for with this approach, and lots of interesting abilities to acquire on a Ranger that I simply wouldn't have bothered with before.

2. AA play style - Magical Damage
With Spell Lore effects be able to make the Elemental Damage crit if Spell Power also affects them?

3. Monkcher vs Pure Ranger
This is really heartening to hear, and I have to agree - the last thing I want to see is a build completely obsoleted by enhancement and feat changes.

4. Run Speed
I hear you on this, I really do. Personally as an FPS player I find quick movements & tumbling not a problem to action to 'digitally-physically' dodge Mobs and incoming projectiles. However, what about the more 'keyboard challenged' players out there? A little extra dodge and perhaps trading out Paralyzing Arrows easy debuff for a permanent 10% Run speed increase in the cores?

And in all honesty, Monkchers are already enjoying some form of run speed increase anyway. The varieties I've played in the past have been 12 Monk / 6 Ranger variants that had an effective +10% run speed after Earth stance and access to Abundant Step for quick escapes.

[Delacroix21]

Btw pure rangers dont even need 10k stars anymore, as they can easily get 72% double shot 100% of the time:

20 deepwood tier 5
25 arcane archer cores
8 epic quiver
10 epic feat
9 epic pl stance -72%

[Lonnbeimnech]

Btw pure rangers dont even need 10k stars anymore, as they can easily get 72% double shot 100% of the time:

20 deepwood tier 5
25 arcane archer cores
8 epic quiver
10 epic feat
9 epic pl stance -72%


+20% from killer

So manyshot will give a whopping +8% doubleshot for 20 seconds? Might as well make it a stance and get rid of the duration.

[FedoraSire]

elfs already can get dex to damage so they're covered with dc= stat used for bow damage

Thou hast convinced me! /Signed!

Can Monkchers get Wis to Damage, or just To-Hit? (Don't need them exploding forums,and I don't own monk to check myself xD)

Edit: Post below me says they can't get WIS to damage

[Augon]

I like the changes to Arrow Stances. Specifically the AP cost and "on save" affects.

I love the fact elemental arrows can be useful.

I love the Crit damage multiplier increase in core 18

I find it odd that after using Wisdom as the basis of the saves, you get a bonus to Dexterity as the capstone. In affect, an AA is a bit of a DC caster, I would think boosting the stat that the DC is based on would be important.

As I said in another post, I do not like the idea of nerfing Slayer arrow.

I do see the logic of using Wisdom as the DC stat. afterall an AA is basically casting spells using his bow and Wisdom is a Rangers casting stat. I could also see the logic in making it Intelligence, though, since the spells he is casting are more similar to arcane spells than divine spells. Of course the biggest issue for the player with making it Wisdom is that Wisdom is the only stat with no way of adding its mod to damage.

As others have stated, I've usually dumped Wisdom on my rangers. Ranger spells are terrible so it didn't matter too much to me. One thing that could possible be added is WIS to damage.

Something I would love to see done with Rangers is fixing their spell casting. Ranger spells are terrible (especially the laughable summoning spells). I know there is no way to do that this update, but it would be nice to be addressed at some point.

Thanks folks for working on this. Change is always refreshing. :)

[Jetrule]

Any way that Manyshot can break the 100% cap to double shot thus giving 2 or 3 arrows while active and the boost to ranged power?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The current Paralyzing DC is 26; most of my Rangers would have this exact same DC right now, without switching anything.

(only thing I hate about it is it makes Monchers more powerful. :( )

[Vellrad]

Thou hast convinced me! /Signed!

Can Monkchers get Wis to Damage, or just To-Hit? (Don't need them exploding forums,and I don't own monk to check myself xD)

Edit: Post below me says they can't get WIS to damage

to hit there's feat, zen archery.
to damage, no idea.

[Faltout]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~
1. But then Manyshot is not actually Manyshot right? It's Oneshot.

2. You are thinking with big numbers. Like, "This ranger does 4000 with manyshot. Ok, I will increase the damage of an individual shot to 4000 to save arrows". But, what about all the fluff that firing more arrows entails? If you are not interested in damage (yes, there are times when you don't care about how much damage you do... shocker for most of the community) and are instead interested in how many arrows with special effects you will fire (like paralyzing, inferno shots, shattermantle, dispelling, slayer, destruction, banishing, terror, etc.)?

Ok, it's your ability and your servers that are handling the load of the extra arrows. But, if you do this remember that it will be considered a lame change from roleplayers, lore players, non-damage dealing players. And the game has lots of those.

Not saying there shouldn't be a change (as I advocated in my previous post). There are numerous other ways to nerf the power of monkchers that comes from those abilities (monkchers are getting a buff with paralyzing, terror, banishing arrows right now).

[Xionanx]

DC's - Need to be 20 + 4x Number of AA Core Abilities + Enchantment Modifiers : This way Rangers/Elf's can both get high DC's by investing in the AA CORE

Manyshot - OMG that is such a ridiculous nerf, SO MUCH NERF. If your intention is to nerf manyshot, then just go ahead and make it a passive that give's (2% Doubleshot and +2RP) x BAB and be done with it. It would be prefereable to what you are proposing. If there is NO chance of a 3rd arrow above 100% doubleshot, then +80% doubleshot for 20 seconds is so increadibly weak. Yeah, who cares you dont get the doubleshot "debuff" afterwards.. it doesn't matter, you already took a 320% doubleshot debuff for 20 seconds.

At least with it being a passive if anyone has a doubleshot greater then 20% already they aren't being screwed.

Is the idea that "Arrows" are causing lag or something? It sounds like its a "Calculation Issue" due to projectiles flying around is why you are justifying a 320% nerf to the skill. IF THAT IS THE ISSUE THEN WHY NOT MAKE IT GIVE 20RP X BAB for 20 SECONDS AND NO DOUBLESHOT PENALTY. Then.. HEY.. Guess what? You still have 400% increased damage for 20 seconds just like the current Manyshot, but without "All the Extra Arrows" flying around.

Granted, you need to make RP effect:
Shots
Elemental Imbues
Etc..

But yeah.. the "nerf" to manyshot as was posted is just too much.

[barecm]

Will the requirement of paralyzing and terror arrows to get tier 5 arrow of slaying be eliminated? Being that we are lead to the choice between elemental or CC type paralyzing / terror arrow line, it would make a little more sense to not have that pre-req. I understand that tier 5 elemental arrow adds to the tiers below it, but there is no such synergy with arrow of slaying and terror / paralyzing.

[Thar]

You need to take into account that DPS after these abilities are finished will be increased by your Doubleshot since there is no longer a debuff.

Sev~

currently if your using manyshot, you probably don't care too much about your doubleshot bonus for the cooldown. if you worry about your doubleshot bonus then it's high enough that it's better used full time and you won't use manyshot except as a oh **** button.

[Thar]

There is a large potential increase in DPS with the loss of the Doubleshot debuff. We have to account for that.

Good point on the weapon switch. Our plan is that the short term buffs end if you unequip your weapon during Manyshot or Ten Thousand Stars.

Sev~

and there is a large disparity between other ranged combat and bows which needs to be addressed. Bows should fire faster than crossbows as the damage is lower and crit range smaller.

[Hobgoblin]

i really really dont like the manyshot nerf.


it feels way too much


if you let double shot go above 100 and get a 3rd and maybe a forth with a very high double shot that might work

something like

0-100% ds - 2 arrow

100-150% ds - 3 arrow\

200 or more - 4 arrows

[Vargouille]

Will Force Arrows stay as 1d6 damage, since Force is less resistible than other elements (which I actually encourage), or will it also be bumped to 1d8?

Force Arrows remain 1d6 (but now scale with more dice and spell power).



1) Will elemental imbues benefit from spell lore?
2) Will elemental attacks benefit from spell power and/or spell lore?
2) Can you create a few named bows/throwing weapons with caster abilities, eg spell power (even if universal/potency)/lore with Enchantment DC bonus?

1. Spell Critical Chance probably won't affect Elemental imbues due to technical hurdles. If we find it's easy to add that in we probably will, but my hopes for that aren't high.
2. Spell Power will affect the 5 Elemental damage enhancements and Force Arrows.
2#2: We'll certainly be keeping AA in mind for future itemization (and possibly part of random loot changes that aren't the topic of this thread =)


1. Monkcher vs. Ranger
This is the biggest issue for me. These changes don't really do anything for the imbalance between running a Monkcher versus running a pure Ranger. The Monkcher still has the huge advantage of taking both feats and having much higher RoF over the Pure Ranger. A Pure Ranger is still stuck with just Manyshot.

Note that when I speculate on 'Pure Rangers', I'm generalizing to full-time Bow users that don't have Monk levels and 10K Stars access.

There's at least a few different builds that we're going to be trying to balance, and no matter what we do, It's Complicated. We are trying hard to make sure 6 monk levels are not JUST better, and we think we're getting there. We're happy to hear more ideas. We disagree that the monkcher just has a huge advantage, but we need to do more testing, and will be happy to hear about player builds and tests and math.

Here's some builds we're explicitly considering for AA and Manyshot/10K changes:

Pure Ranger Archer, primary AA secondary DWS
Pure Ranger Archer, primary DWS secondary AA
Monkcher 6/12 Monk/Ranger (+a couple extra levels... somewhere?) using both 10k and Manyshot. This build doesn't get +1 Critical Multiplier in AA. The development team is divided on whether or not this is enough to balance getting 10k Stars. A cage match has been scheduled (by which I mean DPS Testing). Should this not be enough, we are explicitly open to ideas. There are a lot of options on the table, most of them are undesirable for one reason or a nother.
Elven Pure Monk'cher AA: Gives up DWS.
Elven 12 Ranger 6 Monk: 31 points to get Crit in AA, 21 points to get crit in DWS, 14 points to get the Elven AA tree (so you don't need 18 Ranger for the AA Core Crit) This is potentially the worrying build!


This isn't an exhaustive list, of course. Any of the "pure" builds can probably splash at least 2 levels to do other interesting things, and we'll look at those two, but this is a good sort of "outline". Many builds will be "mostly like" one of these builds. And there's lots of other Elven builds that we expect might be fine and interesting, though for some of them you are straying from the main supported pathways (usually to get something else). Warpriest AA w/ full healing, raging Occult Slayer AA, tactical? Kensei AA, etc.

[jakeelala]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

Shuriken build will now require 6 Monks levels again, that version of 10k makes Doubleshot + 10k viable again.

However, I would like to note that this will EASILY put some builds over 100% Doubleshot.
1. Is the game coded to allow more than 1 missile from Doubleshot? If it isn't, the Damage of both 10k and Manyshot are going to be significantly degraded for both Bow and Shuriken throwers (10k). 100% Doubleshot for 20 seconds does not compare to 400% Doubleshot for 20 seconds in any universe. Even if you add in 100 Ranged Power in the case of manyshot. If BaB is 28 (assume Tensers) then you would get 112 RP and 112 Doubleshot. That's basically equivalent (not quite) to HALF of Manyshot as coded today
Scenario: Ranger 20
Doubleshot Sources:
20% AA Core for
20% DWS Tier 5
8% Quiver
10% Epic feat
9% Epic Primal PLs
=67% before temporary sources

Base damage before Manyshot =
1 Primary arrow + .67 (Doubleshot converted to partial missile for math) = 1.67

With Current Manyshot:
4 Primary arrows + 0 Doubleshot arrows = 4 (roughly a 240% boost to damage) HOWEVER you are then saddled with a LONG Doubleshot cooldown timer which really eats into DPS.

With new Manyshot
1 Primary arrow +1 Doubleshot Arrow = 2 (@+112 RP). If you had zero RP at 28 (impossible) this would make manyshot equivalent to roughly 2.4x damage (interesting how that math works out, eh...?). But at any RP over 0, this is a nerf. Most people will have RP at 28 in the 80-120 range depending on gear and Destiny.

Without doubleshot allowing more than 1 arrow, Manyshot effectively is just giving ~100 RP.

HOWEVER
The loss of a manyshot doubleshot cooldown timer is a HUGE buff. Especially when you run around with 67% base Doubleshot.

[Thar]

[QUOTE=Vargouille;5700265]Not quite caught up, but my posts already get too long...



We agree with many of these thoughts.


Getting everything shouldn't be easy. Like many casters, it's difficult to maximize Spell Power and DCs on the same character. You can make a good effort. Arcane Archers also get very strong very-low-resource physical ranged damage on top of that. Yes, it may be hard to maximize your Arcane Archer's physical ranged damage, magical damage, and DCs. Since that's more than nearly any other class or build gets, it should be terrifically difficult.
[LIST=1]
Does this mean you are going to be forced to spec for Wisdom? Well, if you don't, your DCs are probably higher than before. Paralyzing Arrow DC on live caps out at 26. Just taking Paralyzing Arrows itself puts you at 21, with a 10 Wisdom. Putting in some effort towards Wisdom and Enchantment DCs (which applies to Enchantment spells in addition to these four stances) can help a lot.
We absolutely expect some players may mostly ignore Paralyzing Arrows much of the time and focus on Elemental damage. That's fine and not a bad thing, because it means not all AAs look the same.


so max dc would be something like 20 + wisdom mod (16+6 tome + 2 ship + 12 item+3 exc +1 insight+2 litnany= 42 =+16 mod) + enchant 6 (4 arrows + 2aug) = 42 dc. please advise how many in the new content pacts would save vs this on EE? granted 16 may be a little weak for starting dc but it's reasonable for the class to be spread out on stats and it's only -1 dc to start from max on most races. Similarly with dex to damage available +7 to stats on levelup may go to wisdom but more practically would be dex. even so that's only +3.5 dc. most applicable dc's are 50s to 60s on EE. so a rangers cc would be useless. a stacking - 1 or 2 save on hit would be a good addition for those arrows.

[FestusHood]

At first glance, I did not care that the main attribute used here would be WIS. I just thought, well, it's a Ranger, so WIS.

Upon looking at everything this enhancement tree does, however, the vast majority of those abilities seem rooted in Arcane trickery. Not Divine charlatanism.

I'm now firmly in the camp that thinks WIS is the incorrect stat to be using here. It definitely screams for INT.

Druids cast several staple arcane spells, and they use wisdom for the dc.

[Xionanx]

Force Arrows remain 1d6 (but now scale with more dice and spell power).




1. Spell Critical Chance probably won't affect Elemental imbues due to technical hurdles. If we find it's easy to add that in we probably will, but my hopes for that aren't high.
2. Spell Power will affect the 5 Elemental damage enhancements and Force Arrows.
2#2: We'll certainly be keeping AA in mind for future itemization (and possibly part of random loot changes that aren't the topic of this thread =)



There's at least a few different builds that we're going to be trying to balance, and no matter what we do, It's Complicated. We are trying hard to make sure 6 monk levels are not JUST better, and we think we're getting there. We're happy to hear more ideas. We disagree that the monkcher just has a huge advantage, but we need to do more testing, and will be happy to hear about player builds and tests and math.

Here's some builds we're explicitly considering for AA and Manyshot/10K changes:

Pure Ranger Archer, primary AA secondary DWS
Pure Ranger Archer, primary DWS secondary AA
Monkcher 6/12 Monk/Ranger (+a couple extra levels... somewhere?) using both 10k and Manyshot. This build doesn't get +1 Critical Multiplier in AA. The development team is divided on whether or not this is enough to balance getting 10k Stars. A cage match has been scheduled (by which I mean DPS Testing). Should this not be enough, we are explicitly open to ideas. There are a lot of options on the table, most of them are undesirable for one reason or a nother.


This isn't an exhaustive list, of course. Any of the "pure" builds can probably splash at least 2 levels to do other interesting things, and we'll look at those two, but this is a good sort of "outline". Many builds will be "mostly like" one of these builds. And there's lots of other Elven builds that we expect might be fine and interesting, though for some of them you are straying from the main supported pathways (usually to get something else). Warpriest AA w/ full healing, raging Occult Slayer AA, tactical? Kensei AA, etc.


You talk about wanting us to do math and then hide access to the combat log so we can :rolleyes:. Maybe you guys should allow the combat logs to be dumped to a TXT file so players can get some "Real" DPS numbers using ACT.

But since that isn't going to happen, please give me:

BASE Bow ROF at BAB 20 in Arrows/Second/Minute (I'm talking NO haste, NO speed enhancements, etc). I just want to know how many arrows a 20th level "Fighter" can shoot in 1 minute with absolutely NO "Bow" attack speed increase abilities. I can work out the rest on my own.

And I'll give you plenty of math to prove that the manyshot "nerf" is just that, a nerf.

[Hobgoblin]

so what im getting from all the revamps here is:


devs love meele

so they buff meele

devs hate casters, so they nerf the heck outta casters and leave it.

and no warlock isnt a caster!

so unless you like meeles, there is little to no build versatility in this game.

seems legit.

[Severlin]

Except there isnt, no one kept using a bow during the old penalty window at just the base rate. Either you used 10k etc to keep shooting multiple times, or you swapped back to melee and used MS just for a ranged burst (ie, the classic ranger style).

So really... its a nerf. And it counters a RELATIVE boost. Even with no penalty after MS, there is no buff. Its just the same as it would be normally.

Youre turning MS into a doubleshot action boost. Thats a nerf. Straight up.

Do not do this. Go back to the drawing board. This is lame. Thanks.

Sorry, I must be tired because I am missing your logic. I apologize. Let me lay out some math and see where we are.

Let's say you have 30% doubleshot, 70 Wisdom, and fire 2 times per second with a bow.

With that Wisdom you can expect around 2.7 shots per attack while 10K Stars is active.

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds.
Manyshot: 20 seconds
Neither: 10 seconds
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds.
Neither: 30 seconds

<Repeat>

Old Way:
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 160 attacks
Neither: 10 seconds - 20 attacks
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks
Neither: 30 seconds - 60 attacks

Total: 564

New Way:
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 80 attacks
Neither: 10 seconds - 26 attacks
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks
Neither: 30 seconds - 78 attacks

Total: 424

Reduction in DPS is ~25% with no ranged power buff.

Now account for extra Ranged Power buffs.

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 70 Ranged Power
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 120 Ranged Power
Neither: 10 seconds - 0 Ranged Power
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 70 Ranged Power
Neither: 30 seconds - 0 Ranged Power

That's a 50% uptime on 70 Ranged Power and a 16.66% uptime on 120 Ranged Power. That's a boost of about 55% damage overall which will make up for the reduction in shots, although you will have less increase as you accumulate Ranged Power.

In other words, let's assume an average of 100 damage per shot after averaging crits to keep the math easy.

Old Way: 56,400 damage over 2 minutes

New way:

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 20400 damage
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 80 attacks * 100 * 2.2 = 17600 damage
Neither: 10 seconds - 26 attacks * 100 = 2600 damage
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 20400 damage
Neither: 30 seconds - 78 attacks * 100 = 7800 damage

Total Damage: 68,800 over 2 minutes

That's a significant buff.

But that's not realistic, as most builds will already have Ranged Power which will blunt the effect of the Ranged Power boost. Doing the math again assuming a static 70 Ranged Power for a top end build we get:

Old Way:

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 27540
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 160 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 27200
Neither: 10 seconds - 20 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 3400
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 27540
Neither: 30 seconds - 60 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 10200

Total damage in 2 minutes: 95880 (which of course is the same as the previous damage * 1.7)

New Way:

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 2.4 = 28800 damage
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 80 attacks * 100 * 2.9 = 23200 damage
Neither: 10 seconds - 26 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 4420 damage
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 2.4 = 28800 damage
Neither: 30 seconds - 78 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 13260 damage

Total damage in 2 minutes: 98480

Still a small buff.

Now, the new versions will blunt the effects of Slayer Arrow a bit since you won't get 4 of them with Manyshot active, but I'll be honest that's a good thing in our mind and we are trying to account for that with other tree buffs.

I apologize if I missed the math someplace.

(Edit: I believe the number of attacks per second washes out and the damage ratios are the same at different rates of fire.)

Sev~

[Thar]

Force Arrows remain 1d6 (but now scale with more dice and spell power).




1. Spell Critical Chance probably won't affect Elemental imbues due to technical hurdles. If we find it's easy to add that in we probably will, but my hopes for that aren't high.
2. Spell Power will affect the 5 Elemental damage enhancements and Force Arrows.
2#2: We'll certainly be keeping AA in mind for future itemization (and possibly part of random loot changes that aren't the topic of this thread =)



There's at least a few different builds that we're going to be trying to balance, and no matter what we do, It's Complicated. We are trying hard to make sure 6 monk levels are not JUST better, and we think we're getting there. We're happy to hear more ideas. We disagree that the monkcher just has a huge advantage, but we need to do more testing, and will be happy to hear about player builds and tests and math.

Here's some builds we're explicitly considering for AA and Manyshot/10K changes:

Pure Ranger Archer, primary AA secondary DWS
Pure Ranger Archer, primary DWS secondary AA
Monkcher 6/12 Monk/Ranger (+a couple extra levels... somewhere?) using both 10k and Manyshot. This build doesn't get +1 Critical Multiplier in AA. The development team is divided on whether or not this is enough to balance getting 10k Stars. A cage match has been scheduled (by which I mean DPS Testing). Should this not be enough, we are explicitly open to ideas. There are a lot of options on the table, most of them are undesirable for one reason or a nother.


This isn't an exhaustive list, of course. Any of the "pure" builds can probably splash at least 2 levels to do other interesting things, and we'll look at those two, but this is a good sort of "outline". Many builds will be "mostly like" one of these builds. And there's lots of other Elven builds that we expect might be fine and interesting, though for some of them you are straying from the main supported pathways (usually to get something else). Warpriest AA w/ full healing, raging Occult Slayer AA, tactical? Kensei AA, etc.

most monchers are 12 monk 6 ranger.

manyshot does seema a bit weaker with the cap to arrows since you don't get the 4 arrows burst. yes there is a cooldown but lets be realistic, that was thrown on the class to nerf the moncher, not the ranger. No one ever said rangers were doing too much damage with manyshot. how about a bonus of +1 RP per ranger level to manyshot? an avg 6-20% during that burst along with the 64%-80%(assuming 16-20 bab) would be 70% -100% damage for probably 2 arrows. gives 20 ranger the illusion of 4 arrows damage that they had during that burst at least. (along with keeping the crit mod which is needed to keep up with rogue's pass)

[dontmater]

the manyshot change is lame, manyshot gets hit while 10k stars stays about the same.. LAME

[Vargouille]

so max dc would be something like 20 + wisdom mod (16+6 tome + 2 ship + 12 item+3 exc +1 insight+2 litnany= 42 =+16 mod) + enchant 6 (4 arrows + 2aug) = 42 dc. please advise how many in the new content pacts would save vs this on EE? granted 16 may be a little weak for starting dc but it's reasonable for the class to be spread out on stats and it's only -1 dc to start from max on most races. Similarly with dex to damage available +7 to stats on levelup may go to wisdom but more practically would be dex. even so that's only +3.5 dc. most applicable dc's are 50s to 60s on EE. so a rangers cc would be useless. a stacking - 1 or 2 save on hit would be a good addition for those arrows.

This is equivalent to a level 10 Spell. Which is to say it's already slightly better DC than casters generally get. If it is not good enough for casters, then we'll look at addressing DCs/saves for everyone. There is no new problem here that doesn't exist already for casters. We certainly don't want to put AA DCs even higher than casters. Surely they shouldn't be +10 or +20 points better than a similar Wisdom-based caster?

As mentioned in the first post, Paralyze, Smiting, and Banishing are all gaining new on-save effects (or just on-hit, which is mostly the same for Smiting and Banishing -- if they didn't save vs. the vorpal they are dead!)

[jakeelala]

Maths™

Sev~

Good job. This is a decent way to lay it out. But if you do that with a non-10k bow build, you will see it doesn't line up so nice.

Moreover, builds like my thrower in LD with 10 stacks of blitz (basically full time) runs around with about 180 Ranged Power.

Only the gimpiest of gimps will run around at end game with 70 Ranged Power.

Please adjust your models accordingly.



I JUST WANT TO REPEAT THESE CHANGES TO THE ACTIVE ABILITIES DONT REALLY REPRESENT A NERF OR BOOST EITHER WAY...THE SIGNIFICANT CHANGE (AND IN THIS CASE BUFF) IS LARGELY WRAPPED UP IN THE REMOVAL OF THE DOUBLESHOT DEBUFF.

[Vargouille]

most monchers are 12 monk 6 ranger.

Which means they don't get any of the Core crit bonuses from AA or DWS, unless Elven. As mentioned there are many options.

[Steve_Howe]

Druids cast several staple arcane spells, and they use wisdom for the dc.

It doesn't matter that a spell with the same name, description, and effect can be cast by Wizard or Sorc. Druid spells (even if they have an Arcane equivalent) are, according to every D&D source, defined as Divine spells.

[Xionanx]

Sorry, I must be tired because I am missing your logic. I apologize. Let me lay out some math and see where we are.

Let's say you have 30% doubleshot, 70 Wisdom, and fire 2 times per second with a bow.

With that Wisdom you can expect around 2.7 shots per attack while 10K Stars is active.

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds.
Manyshot: 20 seconds
Neither: 10 seconds
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds.
Neither: 30 seconds

<Repeat>

Old Way:
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 160 attacks
Neither: 10 seconds - 20 attacks
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks
Neither: 30 seconds - 60 attacks

Total: 564

New Way:
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 80 attacks
Neither: 10 seconds - 26 attacks
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks
Neither: 30 seconds - 78 attacks

Total: 424

Reduction in DPS is ~25% with no ranged power buff.

Now account for extra Ranged Power buffs.

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 70 Ranged Power
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 120 Ranged Power
Neither: 10 seconds - 0 Ranged Power
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 70 Ranged Power
Neither: 30 seconds - 0 Ranged Power

That's a 50% uptime on 70 Ranged Power and a 16.66% uptime on 120 Ranged Power. That's a boost of about 55% damage overall which will make up for the reduction in shots, although you will have less increase as you accumulate Ranged Power.

In other words, let's assume an average of 100 damage per shot after averaging crits to keep the math easy.

Old Way: 56,400 damage over 2 minutes

New way:

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 20400 damage
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 80 attacks * 100 * 2.2 = 17600 damage
Neither: 10 seconds - 26 attacks * 100 = 2600 damage
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 20400 damage
Neither: 30 seconds - 78 attacks * 100 = 7800 damage

Total Damage: 68,800 over 2 minutes

That's a significant buff.

But that's not realistic, as most builds will already have Ranged Power which will blunt the effect of the Ranged Power boost. Doing the math again assuming a static 70 Ranged Power for a top end build we get:

Old Way:

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 27540
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 160 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 27200
Neither: 10 seconds - 20 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 3400
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 27540
Neither: 30 seconds - 60 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 10200

Total damage in 2 minutes: 95880 (which of course is the same as the previous damage * 1.7)

New Way:

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 2.4 = 28800 damage
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 80 attacks * 100 * 2.9 = 23200 damage
Neither: 10 seconds - 26 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 4420 damage
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 2.4 = 28800 damage
Neither: 30 seconds - 78 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 13260 damage

Total damage in 2 minutes: 98480

Still a small buff.

Now, the new versions will blunt the effects of Slayer Arrow a bit since you won't get 4 of them with Manyshot active, but I'll be honest that's a good thing in our mind and we are trying to account for that with other tree buffs.

I apologize if I missed the math someplace.

(Edit: I believe the number of attacks per second washes out and the damage ratios are the same at different rates of fire.)

Sev~

This entire concept falls apart if you already have a double shot of 40% or greater.

40% + 80% double shot = 120% but, as you have said before you dont get extra shots for that 20% above 100%, so you are "Penalized" 20% doubleshot for 20 seconds while manyshot is active.
Normally, during that 20 seconds, you would be getting 400% doubleshot, and then be penalized afterwards.

Again, I would love an "Actual" RoF (rate of fire) for a bow so that I make a spreadsheet and post it. but just looking at the math, its some major nerf to manyshot. This also only serves to make "monkcher" better.

Again. loosing those "Extra" arrows you loose:
Elemental Damage Proces
Ability Procs (blinding, paralyzing, etc)
so on and so forth.

Unless bow "RoF" is increasing to match XBOW RoF, which it SHOULD BE FASTER THEN CROSSBOWS IN THE FIRST PLACE, then this is a huge nerf to bow users and only serves to push them further behind.

[Aletys]

Dragons Edge is a Tier 2 effect Spell Power is a Tier 1 I didn't forget anything but you don't know what you are talking about.




That's exactly what 4e does makes spell and melee damage and everything else based on one stat. I'm saying not to do that.

Actually, I do. Spellpower is Tier 1, spell focus is Tier 2. With this approach, both are going to be needed. & when soloing I want the vulnerability as well as edge.

[Drevok]

Please leave multiple arrows in many shot.
Repeating xbow has 3 bolt shot all the time.
If needed for server performance, could reduce manyshot to be up to 3 arrows and adjust the range power and removal of doublwshot penalty to compensate.

[Mryal]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

So you have officialy opened the pandora's box.
I can see many people raging about this as they alredy are doing, but it seems at least reasonable.Capping to 2 arrows at the time does seems odd thought, specialy for manyshot, even the name seems to indicate it should shoot more.
I think its time to allow tripleshot to happen.Doubleshot caps at 100 wich means you have to not get the max amount of double shot (and not use divine crusader) for making full use of these, and that seems rather non intuitive.

I like that this reduces the strain on having to take 6 monk levels, and the fact that beign WIS based becomes closer to doing a trade off of damage vs CC wich is what we alredy on caster classes.
Perpahs the monk ranged playstyle can finnaly be separated from the ranger ranged playstyle now, and pave the road for actualy developing ranged support for monk ON monk when monk changes come, like ranged ki regen and ranged ki strikes.

[Eddexp]

Btw pure rangers dont even need 10k stars anymore, as they can easily get 72% double shot 100% of the time:

20 deepwood tier 5
25 arcane archer cores
8 epic quiver
10 epic feat
9 epic pl stance -72%

most game quivers are buggy and giving double strike instead of double shot ... please take a look at it

[Shindoku]

Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank
This is definately good, but are the action boosts going to change? The resistance is good in certain situations, but the to hit bonus (much like with truestrike) is pretty useless on a ranger)
DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:

Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
I very much like this, it cuts down part of the problem of having most of the points spent in tree on passives that cannot be used at the same time.
Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
The DC is good, and I like the idea of Enchantment Spell Bonuses (it would make me rethink what gear I need and what class I could multi-class into to get greater benefit). I understand why you put Wisdom, but why not Intelligence? An Arcane Archer is a combination of the arcane casters (Wiz/Sorc) and a ranger who, moving forward is increasing their physical ranged attacks with their arcane spells and less so their ranger ones.
Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
This gives a nice passive to the locked out toggles that will benefit you when not being used.
Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.
Can't argue with a shorter duration on Terror!
Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
It's nice that even if your DC isn't high enough, the toggle isn't totally useless.
Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
I will actually use this now! Banking on something to work 5% of the time is not fun, having a chance for something to happen on a roll other than a 20 with this ability is nice.
Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality1 on each hit.
The same thing I said for Smiting Arrows can be said for this.

Pull of Reality1: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).
...and this!



Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)

Increase base damage to 1d8.
An extra one damage per hit? Alright.
Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
This in particular is pretty interesting. Depending on how much it scales, an action boost to spellpower could be a cool little boost to it as well.
Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
Something passive to this was needed and the proposed change is awesome!
Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
This is cool but it makes me wonder if people are just going to take Acid (least resisted, I believe) and boost it, leaving out the other elements. Of course, situationally the others could be better.
Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
I assume this means the damage based on crit multiplier, which is good, but does it include the 1d6 damage from burning stacks as well?
Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower
Sweet!


Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):

Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"
I'm probably one of the few that doesn't care for this. It was given to a few classes at the start, and it was unique. Now, it has been wedged into far too many trees and it has to stop (giving everyone the exact same thing isn't unique/balance, it's boring and it makes everything the same. You wanted to not add it into the other two trees, and players whined. Sometimes, a child needs a slap on the wrist when they get too greedy.


Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):

Dexterity bonus increased to +4
Going with DWS dex to damage or Elf's Dex to damage, +1 is always nice.


Slaying Arrow:

Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)
Totally understandable.





Good point on the weapon switch. Our plan is that the short term buffs end if you unequip your weapon during Manyshot or Ten Thousand Stars.

Sev~
Would it be possible to keep it when switching to another bow? Swapping out a damage bypass weapon because you switched to a different enemy is sometimes required and would suck to drop an important buff like Manyshot.

[Eddexp]

please do some change to improve bows ... most added buffs are generic providing BAB, AttSpeed ,+[w] for everyone. So this is not improving at all the use of bows in the game.And clearly for pure rangers w/o 10tzstars the change on Many shots will be a NERF.

[Severlin]

Good job. This is a decent way to lay it out. But if you do that with a non-10k bow build, you will see it doesn't line up so nice.

Moreover, builds like my thrower in LD with 10 stacks of blitz (basically full time) runs around with about 180 Ranged Power.

Only the gimpiest of gimps will run around at end game with 70 Ranged Power.

Please adjust your models accordingly.


~ Without 10K Stars the 50 second Doubleshot debuff that Manyshot gives isn't negated by 30 seconds of 10K Stars so that debuff is actually harsher for a Manyshot build without 10K Stars.

~ The thrower doesn't use Manyshot, so it won't be losing as much since 10K Stars only drops from 2.7 to 2 shots per attack, and 20 seconds of the 10K Stars debuff isn't negated by Manyshot.

~ Good catch on blitz - I'll have to recheck the math for people blitzing. I don't see that in my notes.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Would it be possible to keep it when switching to another bow? Swapping out a damage bypass weapon because you switched to a different enemy is sometimes required and would suck to drop an important buff like Manyshot.

Steelstar thinks he can check it when the combat style changes rather than the weapon changes. If that works then you'd be able to change bows during the buff. We will have to make sure the tech works that way though.

Sev~

[nibel]

Let's say you have 30% doubleshot, 70 Wisdom, and fire 2 times per second with a bow.

I think this is where your math breaks. Any Ranged pure ranger would be at least on 40% from AA/DWS combinations, and can easily get 60% from gear and epic feat. Unless we are talking heroics, and until you get BAB 16+, Manyshot is not a huge power boost anyway.

10k is ok with this bonus because for thrower builds they have a niche use.

What if you go to the other side of raising damage: Make Manyshot an alacrity bonus? Even a 50% alacrity bonus (that stacks with doubleshot) can end up being better than the potential loss of doubleshot above 100%.

Bows also need some alacrity bonus (might be an animation issue as well, since now the "xbow reload" animation is linked to alacrity, but not for bows). I was seriously disappointed when I took my ranger from the fridge to test out the ranger changes, was grouping with a great xbow user, and he was firing it around 30% faster than me. A fully-specced archer should fire at least as fast as a fully-specced non-repeater xbow user right now.

[Rasputin]

DDO store or platinum purchase, I don't care.

But we need a single quiver than can hold every current and future arrow type up to 10,000 or higher in each stack. I have dozens of quivers scattered all over my 29 characters all holding different arrow types.

Make the madness stop!

[Firewall]

(...)
Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

This is a big nerf to 10k stars-using thrower builds. Shuriken builds need to be centered and especially pure monk builds cannot get their Doubleshot bonuses very high because they don't have any enhancements to boost it.
With the current version they already get 25% of their meager Doubleshotbonus because Doubleshot is active 15 seconds out of every minute.

Being a completionist with the best raid gear and a +7 tome in Water Stance and in a non-WIS Epic Destiny i can have a standing 50 WIS with only guild ship buffs running with my pure monk Shuricannon build. If the formula of 10k stars on DDOWiki is correct this gives me a combined ~128% chance for additional shuriken (or 1.28 additional shuriken) over 30 seconds. So over the course of 1 minute until i can activate 10k stars again this gives me the equivalent of 64% fulltime Doubleshot equivalent.
My Doubleshot can get as high as 29% (10% from Epic lvl 28 feat, 9% from 3 Epic Past Lifes, 2% from ship buffs and 8% from the new Epic Dynamistic Quiver). Right now i can add 25% of that (=7%) to my fulltime Doubleshot chance.


This means that with the current implementation of 10k stars i have a Fulltime Doubleshot equivalent of 71%.
With the new version of 10k stars over one minute i would get 29% Doubleshot Fulltime and 50% Doubleshot for half the time meaning i will have a Fulltime Doubleshot equivalent of only 54%.


This difference becomes even bigger if i boost my WIS higher with Yugoloth/Store Pots, Bard Song, etc. and run in a WIS-based Epic Destiny like Divine Crusader (+6 WIS). For example 60 WIS in Divine Crusader with Inspire Excellence and a +2 WIS pot would be 87,5% Fulltime Doubleshot equivalent in the old version and only 59% with the new version.


That difference won't be made up by +50 ranged power in the new version because ranged power gives diminishing returns and only boosts physical damage and sneak attack damage whereas more projectiles boost all the damage procs that are the basis of most thrower builds.


Multiclass ranger/rogue/monk shuriken thrower builds can have a lot higher Doubleshot bonuses and have by far more Sneak Attack damage so they benefit more from +50 ranged power and the removal of the Doubleshot Penalty. Which means that pure monk shuriken throwers will be nerfed a lot more than the multiclass throwers.

If these changes come into place you turn 10k stars from being a monk feat meant to boost monk shuriken throwers into a feat that gives the most benefit to bow-users and high-Doubleshot, high-Sneak Attack damage multiclass thrower builds with many ranger and/or rogue levels. Pure monks will be nerfed in comparison.

Throwers need more projectiles and less ranged power.

[jakeelala]

~ Without 10K Stars the 50 second Doubleshot debuff that Manyshot gives isn't negated by 30 seconds of 10K Stars so that debuff is actually harsher for a Manyshot build without 10K Stars.
Sev~

Yes I think you misunderstand me. My point is that since there is now no doubleshot debuff, you lose out on a bow character by not having 10k, which is counter to Devs stated goals.

I will restate that I am ecstatic about the removal of Doubleshot debuff, I've personally been clamoring for it being removed on 10k and Manyshot for a LONG time on these forums.

My point however was that without the doubleshot debuff, and without any cooldown interaction between 10k and Manyshot, 10k is still additive to Manyshot, and a Ranged character would almost always be better off with 10k. This of course would be mitigated by the Multiplier to bow damage present in AA.

I would like to STRONGLY suggest that you let that multipler apply to all ranged weapons. This would allow xbow users to utilize lots of ranger levels if they want, whats the harm in that? More importantly, it would give some incentive to go BEYOND the current only realy option for throwers which is /3+ Monk. With 18 ranger levels as a Req, I could see making a thrower build without /3 monk for that extra crit multi.

Of course, you'd have to fix crit multiplers.

[jakeelala]

This is a big nerf to 10k stars-using thrower builds. Shuriken builds need to be centered and especially pure monk builds cannot get their Doubleshot bonuses very high because they don't have any enhancements to boost it.
With the current version they already get 25% of their meager Doubleshotbonus because Doubleshot is active 15 seconds out of every minute.

Being a completionist with the best raid gear and a +7 tome in Water Stance and in a non-WIS Epic Destiny i can have a standing 50 WIS with only guild ship buffs running with my pure monk Shuricannon build. If the formula of 10k stars on DDOWiki is correct this gives me a combined ~128% chance for additional shuriken (or 1.28 additional shuriken) over 30 seconds. So over the course of 1 minute until i can activate 10k stars again this gives me the equivalent of 64% fulltime Doubleshot equivalent.
My Doubleshot can get as high as 29% (10% from Epic lvl 28 feat, 9% from 3 Epic Past Lifes, 2% from ship buffs and 8% from the new Epic Dynamistic Quiver). Right now i can add 25% of that (=7%) to my fulltime Doubleshot chance.


This means that with the current implementation of 10k stars i have a Fulltime Doubleshot equivalent of 71%.
With the new version of 10k stars over one minute i would get 29% Doubleshot Fulltime and 50% Doubleshot for half the time meaning i will have a Fulltime Doubleshot equivalent of only 54%.


This difference becomes even bigger if i boost my WIS higher with Yugoloth/Store Pots, Bard Song, etc. and run in a WIS-based Epic Destiny like Divine Crusader (+6 WIS). For example 60 WIS in Divine Crusader with Inspire Excellence and a +2 WIS pot would be 87,5% Fulltime Doubleshot equivalent in the old version and only 59% with the new version.


That difference won't be made up by +50 ranged power in the new version because ranged power gives diminishing returns and only boosts physical damage and sneak attack damage whereas more projectiles boost all the damage procs that are the basis of most thrower builds.


Multiclass ranger/rogue/monk shuriken thrower builds can have a lot higher Doubleshot bonuses and have by far more Sneak Attack damage so they benefit more from +50 ranged power and the removal of the Doubleshot Penalty. Which means that pure monk shuriken throwers will be nerfed a lot more than the multiclass throwers.

If these changes come into place you turn 10k stars from being a monk feat meant to boost monk shuriken throwers into a feat that gives the most benefit to bow-users and high-Doubleshot, high-Sneak Attack damage multiclass thrower builds with many ranger and/or rogue levels. Pure monks will be nerfed in comparison.


Don't forget to mention you are taking advantage of a bugged feature with shurikens, specifically Shadowstar, which allows Pure Monks in Divine Crusader to have a 5-20 critical threat range because of Keen causing all crit threat range modifiers to be doubled. You're making this argument because you rely on lots of crits for Ninja Spy poison damage which applied full damage on every crit at 20 stacks.

This argument is not useful for any thrower builds that are not pure monks. In fact, a build without 10k and high SA damage loves the boost to RP, like my builds. I hope the devs won't rebalance these things on the basis of one build that is pure monk and takes advantage of a game bug with keen in DC.

You know, since we're trying to constructively advance the conversation here.

[Xionanx]

[/LIST]

Hey, I'm all for "viable", but what's the reasoning behind having Monks archers be "top-tier"?

Because monks melee are super weak, its the only viable monk build.:p

[SirValentine]

Let's re-state our stance on monkchers:

Monkchers should be a viable top-tier ranged DPS build.


Hey, I'm all for "viable", but what's the reasoning behind having Monks archers be "top-tier"?

[FestusHood]

It doesn't matter that a spell with the same name, description, and effect can be cast by Wizard or Sorc. Druid spells (even if they have an Arcane equivalent) are, according to every D&D source, defined as Divine spells.

This is ddo, not dnd. These effects are specific to arcane archers. A subdivision of rangers in ddo. Rangers are typed as divine casters. The specific argument i was responding to was based on the thought that the aa effects kinda sorta resembled arcane type effects, therefore should use an arcane casting stat for the dc. In the case of the druid, they don't just resemble, they precisely are the same effects as used by arcane casters. If it's not too schizophrenic that the exact same effect can be both arcane and divine, then it's not too much of a stretch that aa abilities could also match the type of the 'caster' that is delivering them.

[Thar]

This is equivalent to a level 10 Spell. Which is to say it's already slightly better DC than casters generally get. If it is not good enough for casters, then we'll look at addressing DCs/saves for everyone. There is no new problem here that doesn't exist already for casters. We certainly don't want to put AA DCs even higher than casters. Surely they shouldn't be +10 or +20 points better than a similar Wisdom-based caster?

As mentioned in the first post, Paralyze, Smiting, and Banishing are all gaining new on-save effects (or just on-hit, which is mostly the same for Smiting and Banishing -- if they didn't save vs. the vorpal they are dead!)

casters have to get their level x spell to those levels to work? my necro caster has to hit mid 50s at low 20s to 60+ at end game to make it effective. perhaps if this is a will dc it will be lower? what is your expections for saves vs these? What are common trash mobs saves vs? my lvl 25 wizard has a 43 dc with dancing ball and it works 10%-20% of the time. how will these arrows be different? how is that fun? imo adding "caster level" would help these be effective for primary ranger builds. even 1/2 caster level would help. please compare with epic mobs and advise?

just want them to be viable on EE, not necessarily no miss on ee, but if never viable at that level then what's the point for endgame? ie if you can't paralize, yes the on hit is a nice perk but wouldn't then another option be better (ie elemental arrows, etc that do some dps vs a non paralizing shot. 26 currently is useless except on a save of 1 so maybe only while your manyshotting will you see something stop, and not for long till 2nd save kicks in.


Vargouille

Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
most monchers are 12 monk 6 ranger.
Which means they don't get any of the Core crit bonuses from AA or DWS, unless Elven. As mentioned there are many options.


they get this a bonus of earth stance so that's ok, no? or will be reviewed with monk pass?

[Vellrad]

This is equivalent to a level 10 Spell. Which is to say it's already slightly better DC than casters generally get. If it is not good enough for casters, then we'll look at addressing DCs/saves for everyone. There is no new problem here that doesn't exist already for casters. We certainly don't want to put AA DCs even higher than casters. Surely they shouldn't be +10 or +20 points better than a similar Wisdom-based caster?

As mentioned in the first post, Paralyze, Smiting, and Banishing are all gaining new on-save effects (or just on-hit, which is mostly the same for Smiting and Banishing -- if they didn't save vs. the vorpal they are dead!)

This is 10-20 less than casters get in their prefered schools.
42 was my DC when level cap was 20.

[Vargouille]

[/LIST]

Hey, I'm all for "viable", but what's the reasoning behind having Monks archers be "top-tier"?

One reason is to not take that away from current players who have often invested years into those characters. It's something we sometimes feel necessary to do but we avoid that when we can.

Another is that it's a moderately complex build that rewards a good player who's paying attention. While monks get some bonuses other ranged characters don't, it goes the other way as well, which means we don't see a reason for it to not be top tier. Again, not everything has to be - while I would love to see an amazing Elven Occult Slayer Arcane Archer make it work, it's not a priority for us to change things to make that top tier. But we're not going to intentionally try to push down existing fun characters any more than absolutely necessary (if necessary at all).

[Vellrad]

Force Arrows remain 1d6 (but now scale with more dice and spell power).




1. Spell Critical Chance probably won't affect Elemental imbues due to technical hurdles. If we find it's easy to add that in we probably will, but my hopes for that aren't high.
2. Spell Power will affect the 5 Elemental damage enhancements and Force Arrows.
2#2: We'll certainly be keeping AA in mind for future itemization (and possibly part of random loot changes that aren't the topic of this thread =)



There's at least a few different builds that we're going to be trying to balance, and no matter what we do, It's Complicated. We are trying hard to make sure 6 monk levels are not JUST better, and we think we're getting there. We're happy to hear more ideas. We disagree that the monkcher just has a huge advantage, but we need to do more testing, and will be happy to hear about player builds and tests and math.

Here's some builds we're explicitly considering for AA and Manyshot/10K changes:

Pure Ranger Archer, primary AA secondary DWS
Pure Ranger Archer, primary DWS secondary AA
Monkcher 6/12 Monk/Ranger (+a couple extra levels... somewhere?) using both 10k and Manyshot. This build doesn't get +1 Critical Multiplier in AA. The development team is divided on whether or not this is enough to balance getting 10k Stars. A cage match has been scheduled (by which I mean DPS Testing). Should this not be enough, we are explicitly open to ideas. There are a lot of options on the table, most of them are undesirable for one reason or a nother.
Elven Pure Monk'cher AA: Gives up DWS.
Elven 12 Ranger 6 Monk: 31 points to get Crit in AA, 21 points to get crit in DWS, 14 points to get the Elven AA tree (so you don't need 18 Ranger for the AA Core Crit) This is potentially the worrying build!


This isn't an exhaustive list, of course. Any of the "pure" builds can probably splash at least 2 levels to do other interesting things, and we'll look at those two, but this is a good sort of "outline". Many builds will be "mostly like" one of these builds. And there's lots of other Elven builds that we expect might be fine and interesting, though for some of them you are straying from the main supported pathways (usually to get something else). Warpriest AA w/ full healing, raging Occult Slayer AA, tactical? Kensei AA, etc.

so, ingore barb/ranger or other str archers?

[Kielbasa]

I would like to STRONGLY suggest that you let that multipler apply to all ranged weapons. This would allow xbow users to utilize lots of ranger levels if they want, whats the harm in that? More importantly, it would give some incentive to go BEYOND the current only realy option for throwers which is /3+ Monk. With 18 ranger levels as a Req, I could see making a thrower build without /3 monk for that extra crit multi.

Of course, you'd have to fix crit multiplers.

I would love an extra crit multiplier on my repeater ranger but odds are named bows at 15-20 x4 with a high double shot is going to be pretty close math wise to a repeater at 15-20 x2 at high doubleshot. Both end up close to 15-20 x8 per volley. It's proper usage of active abilities and weapon procs like sneak attack where I think repeaters will always pull ahead of bow users especially with the upcoming projectile nerfs to manyshot and 10k stars.

[blerkington]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

Hi,

Not a fan of the proposed change to manyshot at all.

It seems harmful for hybrid melee/archery builds which use manyshot as a burst. Other alternatives to handling the issue of allowing rangers to choose between burst and constant damage have already been proposed in this thread.

The reduction in projectile numbers for that period will significantly reduce additional damage from sneak attack, arrow imbues, and on hit weapon effects. So not only do archers already have a comparatively low RoF outside of manyshot, that same disadvantage will now be extended to it.

As other people have already observed, a large amount of doubleshot is already available to archers. The buff to it during this new manyshot will be pretty marginal in those cases, making manyshot little more than a ranged power action boost.

No thanks.

[Lonnbeimnech]

If you are going forward with this many shot nerf/buff can we maybe add some ranged alacrity to its duration so you can still notice an increase in dps while its up?

[lizrex]

Can I ask the Community --

What are your ideas about how these broad principles should vary between Ranger AA and Elf AA ?

Should focus and abilities be very different between the two, identical, or simply variant ?

People have made elf achane archer in the past to access the dex to damage in tier 5, no there is no need because you can get it in teir two deepwood sniper now with any class.

[losian2]

the manyshot change is lame, manyshot gets hit while 10k stars stays about the same.. LAME

This is exactly the wrong way and mindset to balance anything, and why devs ignore some played feedback. I'm not trying to be mean, but come on.. what value does this have?

10k Stars will likely be changed and adjusted, as the devs see fit, when monk gets its turn. That is not now. Now is manyshot. It is being adjusted for the current game and design while also *looking forward.* That's how you design things. You don't do it with a "WELL THEY HAVE A THING AND MY THING CHANGED SO THEIRS NEEDS TO BE WORSE TOO" mindset. That's just bad game design. :(

[Firewall]

Don't forget to mention you are taking advantage of a bugged feature with shurikens, specifically Shadowstar, which allows Pure Monks in Divine Crusader to have a 5-20 critical threat range because of Keen causing all crit threat range modifiers to be doubled. You're making this argument because you rely on lots of crits for Ninja Spy poison damage which applied full damage on every crit at 20 stacks.

This argument is not useful for any thrower builds that are not pure monks. In fact, a build without 10k and high SA damage loves the boost to RP, like my builds. I hope the devs won't rebalance these things on the basis of one build that is pure monk and takes advantage of a game bug with keen in DC.

You know, since we're trying to constructively advance the conversation here.

Actually i'm talking constructively. And pure monk throwers getting nerfed by this change is a fact. I use Thunderforged Tier 3 shuriken with my build all the time and not Shadowstar. As people who read my posts on the forum can see i always state that don't make use of bugs and want bugs and incorrect descriptions to be fixed so that all people have the same chances to build the builds they like. That is why i added my known thrower bugs to Tilomeres list in his Critzilla thread.

Even with the bug you state i doubt this can be better than Mortal Fear with as many attacks as throwers got so far. I hope you already have bug reported it and it will be fixed soon. If Shadowstar is bugged then the bug with Shadowstar should be fixed but this should not in any way be a reason to balance builds or discuss future changes to 10k stars.

Since the devs stated that they want the power of builds with 10k stars to stay roughly the same pure monk shuriken throwers have to be considered also. And if it is implemented like proposed this is a big nerf to them and less so to other builds.

60 Wis and 30 ranged power for 30 seconds comes down to half of that for one minute. With no sources for Doubleshot in monk trees and low Sneak Attack damage this is really not good enough. And remember that we are talking about a 6th level Monk-exclusive feat, which should benefit monks in the first place.

[Qhualor]

If you are going forward with this many shot nerf/buff can we maybe add some ranged alacrity to its duration so you can still notice an increase in dps while its up?

I thought about this and was in the middle of posting my suggestion of adding alacrity to AA, but deleted it. the reason why is because alacrity and speed/haste are enhancement bonuses thus doesn't stack. if alacrity were to be given its own bonus type stacking with haste/speed items than it would have to be small. could be too powerful with Manyshot and 10k. since speed items are a must item to equip on characters, alacrity really is already covered. I think it would be better to have an alacrity enhancement boost much like haste boost enhancements, but not stack with it. however, do you replace Attack Boost or Energy Resistance Boost?

[Requiro]

snip

I don’t know what think about these changes. I see only waste of great potential… Let’s see details:

Elemental Arrow – good improvement, that is what AA needs. If I understand this correctly: You can have:

+7d8 elemental damage if you choice one type or less if you want diversity to minimum of 4d8 of each elemental. No changes to Tier 5, but scales with Spell Power.
Force arrows gets maximum of 4d8 force damage, with 4 Tiers of Elemental Arrow.


If it’s true, then I strongly recommended, some improvement to Tier 5, and Force Arrows. Something like :

Tier 5: Additional Vorpal damage (+4d8?)
Force Arrows: Only 2 ranks, 1 AP each.

1st: 1d8 Force damage + Ghost Touch ability
2nd: Additional Force Criticals + Ghostbane I ability.



Shadow Arrows – boring but very good improvement. With DWS, there is no need for 14 pally anymore.

DC Based Arrow Stances – Strange improvement. Great for Monkchers, meaningless for rest. Who design Ranger Tree to be great for other Class? I don’t know that monkchers lobby is so strong in DDO. Why not made DC AA Core abilities depended? On the other changes:

Paralyzing – If I understand it correctly (with save – 3 sec debuf, without save, 6 second paralyzing), that it’s very good move. Great CC ability, even with save.
Smiting and Banishing – Not very great changes. With new Elemental Arrow, it’s better deal with these creature by DPS, then have hope that we proc some good stuff. Suggestion is to add Bane or Lesser Bane ability.
Terror – Why you leave these ability? It’s party killer. Change it to blind/stun/”no-run-away-fear” ability. Or made it multiselector: Run away Fear or No-Run away Fear. Also add something on save: Shaken maybe?


Mystical Archer – Are y kidding me? While I like double shoot, it’s not something that I will stay pure. If I consider stay pure I just go DWS Core 20 for much much more power. I suggest the obvious:


Let add 3rd stable imbues of any choice (even two different Elemental Arrows or Metalline+Aligned bypass)

Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank – same here. If you don’t have plan to change at least one of the Action Boosts, don’t bother. No one will use them.

Slaying Arrow – Well, that ability is OP and players just love it. For me you can freely nerf it, but give us something in return.

Overall much abilities are no mention, but they NEED to be improve:

1st Core, True strike, Soul Magic, Moonbow, Runebow – are so week abilities. Especially T5 abilities compare to new DWS (and planning nerf to Slaying Arrow).

Let me suggest some ideas here:

1st Core – change +1 bonus from Bows to Arrows, and made this bonus stack with everything.
True strike –add no fail on roll 1 (thus you probably always hit), combine in one rank with 1 AP cost
Soul Magic –Add small SP regeneration after kill (like 1d3+1 SP regen after kill)
Moonbow – Remove temporary, replace by SP regen: Once every 30 second you regen SP equal to you AA core abilities. Reduce AP cost to 1.
Runebow – made 3 ranks, 1 AP each.

1st rank: +1 additional enhancement bonus with Bows, Your arrows gain +60% returning ability
2nd rank: +1 additional enhancement bonus with Bows (+2 total), Your arrows gain +70% returning ability
3rd rank: +1 additional enhancement bonus with Bows(+3 total), Your arrows gain +80% returning ability



About Nerf to Manyshoot and 10kStars – If you consider additional AA improvement, then this is good move. Otherwise, please don’t nerf forever ranged toons.

Spells for Ranger: I know that there is no ETA on ranger spells, but I create threat that suggest some improvement, without much time to work with it. Look at this, and consider some improvement – Spells on Ranger (Especially Level 3 and 4) are so week… https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/465884-Ranger-Pass-Spell-list-improvement-(with-only-2-new-Spell)

[jakeelala]

Even with the bug you state i doubt this can be better than Mortal Fear with as many attacks as throwers got so far. I hope you already have bug reported it. If Shadowstar is bugged then the bug with Shadowstar should be fixed but this should not in any way be a reason to balance builds or discuss future changes to 10k stars.


Against red names its quite superior.

All builds are helped by more Ranged Power, and in the spirit of the devs not wanting any one build to be the best, 10k should not be a requirement for throwers (though it should be powerful and useful since it requires a feat and ki regen).

However, this is why we need crit multipliers fixed for throwers. 18 Ranger thrower with just Shuriken Expertise is balanced. A Swashbuckle bard who cant use ToEE or Advanced Ninja Training but gets 15-20x3 is balanced.

10K without a doubleshot debuff is a HUGE buff. That's why they've reduced the missile it procs as a result. The vast majority of the time you were only getting 2 extra shots from 10k anyway, now you will be basically assured of one, but after 10k for those other 30seconds you get full double shot. What they've done is taken out some of the burst (but not all with the RP boost) and made the damage overall higher, but more consistent and steady over time.

Like my higher doubleshot builds already were.

[Erik_Loki]

Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):

Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"




Ok We can save this one... DC based on WIS? On ranger? Seriously??? What do you have in mind? Focus on something else at this point... don't destroy the AA tree!

[Arlathen]

A final piece of feedback before I head to bed, but an important point I wanted to re-emphasise after stating as much in the Tempest/DWS threads.

Ranger, to me, is the one class that offers some true Versatility even when played pure.



Even if you heavily spec into Melee, you've always had a solid Ranged option backed up with feats and of course, a good 20s burst of Manyshot.
Even if you heavily spec into Ranged, you've always had a full line of TWF feats allowing you to get down and dirty if you need too.


As much as I'm advocating careful changes to Manyshot to make Pure Rangers who specialise in Archery competitive with other Archer builds, please for the love of all things holy don't dilute Manyshot down for the Melee Rangers.

On reflection, I think the current changes penalize Pure Ranger Archers against Monkchers, and penalize Melee Rangers who value their versatility, too much

Sad Panda :(

[FestusHood]

Let's say i accept that archers which have both manyshot and 10k stars will be equal, but different than the way they work now. What isn't clear to me is whether having only one or the other will be as good as having both. I'm also curious if there will be a change to the cooldown of manyshot. If both cooldowns remain the same as live, won't 10k stars be strictly better than manyshot?

[Severlin]

The reduction in projectile numbers for that period will significantly reduce additional damage from sneak attack, arrow imbues, and on hit weapon effects. So not only do archers already have a comparatively low RoF outside of manyshot, that same disadvantage will now be extended to it.


As an aside, Sneak Attack and many feat based on hit damage effects scale with Ranged Power. Sneak Attack, as an example, scales with 150% Ranged Power so this will actually be a buff for many Sneak Attack builds.

Sev~

[mikarddo]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

Why do you want a design that throws out fewer arrows when a crossbow user or shuriken user throws out anywhere between far more and far, far more projectiles?
Without an answer to this question the entire basis for the considered change is void.

[CeltEireson]

This is 10-20 less than casters get in their prefered schools.
42 was my DC when level cap was 20.

True but the 42 DC being quoted was based on neither spending points in wisdom on level up, additional feats, enhancements or epic destiny abilities and also other equipment.

So starting at the 42 DC quoted and assuming at cap:

+7 from The Band Immaterial ring
+1 guild bonus
+1 from elven racial enhancements
+3 from Draconic twist
so 54 DC

and if you really want to go all out
+1 - +3 from enchantment feats
+1 wizard past life feat
+1 bard past life feat

and that's not including spending a few more points in Wisdom during level up.

I'm not suggesting anyone would really spend all that to get their DCs to high levels., but the thing is they don't need to be as high as a DC wizards. A DC wizard needs his spells to work most of the time otherwise he is just wasting spellpoints and will soon run out. This is a stance and every arrow can cause the mob to fail its DC, a ranger can fire arrows out a lot faster than a wizard can cast CC spells and he never runs out of arrows - even if mobs fail the DC check only 25% of the time they are still likely to be locked down because in a six second period you are going to be firing more than 4 arrows. Even if they only fail on a 1 they're still locked down for 6 seconds, and with improved precise shot this ends up being an AOE effect.

So 42 is low, but then to have good reliable CC generally requires a good bit of investment and I don't think that should be any different for rangers than casters.

[CeltEireson]

Why do you want a design that throws out fewer arrows when a crossbow user or shuriken user throws out anywhere between far more and far, far more projectiles?
Without an answer to this question the entire basis for the considered change is void.

in normal use yes, during manyshot I'd have to say no - plus all 4 arrows are fired at once so all the damage and hit calculation are being processed simultaneously,

[Seikojin]

To the peeps here, what if:
Manyshot and 10k provided a passive buff to doubleshot and had a shared timer clicky attack that fired 4 shots every 12 seconds? This way you have doubleshot running at all times and you could get up to 8 shots with the clicky every 12 seconds?

[mikarddo]

Let's say you have 30% doubleshot, 70 Wisdom, and fire 2 times per second with a bow.
Sev~

I realise that the number of attacks is uimportant for the relative comparison but I still need to ask. Do you see bows shooting twice per second?
I ran a few tests and with Blinding Speed on a level 28 I was getting just below 1.2 shots per second (with no doubleshot and not using manyshot or 10k stars).

Could you maybe post actual numbers for numbers of shots per second using a bow, using an x-bow or using shurikens? When you claim that a high number of projectiles is bad for performance we need the relative numbers for the 3 kinds of projectiles so we know for a fact that targeting arrows is appropriate. I rather doubt it as bows seem much slower than x-bows or shurikens but please enlighten us as you seem to build the entire case of lower number or arrows in Manyshot and 10k stars on that.

[Firewall]

Against red names its quite superior.

All builds are helped by more Ranged Power, and in the spirit of the devs not wanting any one build to be the best, 10k should not be a requirement for throwers (though it should be powerful and useful since it requires a feat and ki regen).

However, this is why we need crit multipliers fixed for throwers. 18 Ranger thrower with just Shuriken Expertise is balanced. A Swashbuckle bard who cant use ToEE or Advanced Ninja Training but gets 15-20x3 is balanced.

10K without a doubleshot debuff is a HUGE buff. That's why they've reduced the missile it procs as a result. The vast majority of the time you were only getting 2 extra shots from 10k anyway, now you will be basically assured of one, but after 10k for those other 30seconds you get full double shot. What they've done is taken out some of the burst (but not all with the RP boost) and made the damage overall higher, but more consistent and steady over time.

Like my higher doubleshot builds already were.

Fact is that builds with a high Doubleshot and high Sneak Attack Damage benefit the most from these changes (and still are nerfed in my book) and these are ranger and rogue multiclass thrower builds.

Pure monk is probably the oldest and most widespread thrower build because - as you said in your thread about the bugged crit multiplier - they are still in the top DPS range for throwers. So all the people with a pure monk build (and i know quite a lot) should be considered when the Devs are changing a key element of their build. Especially since it costs a feat slot, action points for Tier 3 Contemplation in Henshin Mystic and a twist slot for Enlightenment in epics to maintain a high passive Ki regeneration. This is quite a high investment and should be rewarded not dismissed.

With the DPS, PRR and MRR increases of the latest melee changes and severely bugged wolf and tree builds as of late i don't think thrower builds should be nerfed even more in comparison. They don't come near any of those DPS numbers anyway. So far the most power of throwers came from the high number of attacks in combination with many damage procs. This is nerfed severely by the changes because of less attacks and procs not being buffed by ranged power. And thus pure monks take the biggest hit.

[Requiro]

As an aside, Sneak Attack and many feat based on hit damage effects scale with Ranged Power. Sneak Attack, as an example, scales with 150% Ranged Power so this will actually be a buff for many Sneak Attack builds.

Sev~

Yes it is

Math:


1 SA Die = ~3,5 dmg
20 BAB toon (4x20=80)
80 RP * 150% = 120 RP
Manyshoot now: 3,5x4=14 dmg
Manyshoot after: 3,5x2x2,2=15,4 dmg


But what about AA abilitis that scale with Spell Power? For them it's huge nerf.

[mikarddo]

The fun part of playing an archer (to me) is maximizing the damage I get from Manyshot + Slayer Arrows + Adrenaline.

Sure, my sustained damage is well below most other builds - but hitting a string of enemies with a combo is FUN. Further, it makes for a different gameplay than most other builds which I consider a very good thing (tm). These changes seem to aim towards lowering the burst damage very considerably which upping the sustained damage some - but that removes the fun and different part from the play style while simply making it more like other builds.

Whats the point in claiming to want to further build diversity if the actual effect is to remove the actually different play style?

[EllisDee37]

Mr replies in red. One day i'll figure out multi-quote. (first time useing advanced editor :P )It's better if you don't embed your replies inside quotes, as those are difficult to reply to. We have to manually copy and paste them. Like this one:


Oh boy, hjere we go again. You know we're gonna get calls for a Tier 5 Crit threat expansion. Make it cost 5 ap?No need. Bow users can get +1 crit range by taking the ML12 core from DWS.


4. +1 crit multiplier is very boring. At core 18 you can put in other powerful bonuses without risk of holy sword splashingHoly Sword can be used with the entire AA tree, even the capstone, thanks to the racial tree version.

[blerkington]

As an aside, Sneak Attack and many feat based on hit damage effects scale with Ranged Power. Sneak Attack, as an example, scales with 150% Ranged Power so this will actually be a buff for many Sneak Attack builds.

Sev~

Hi,

It doesn't help with imbues and on hit weapon effects. For example, the damage from imbues would be halved, and the chances of getting weapon procs like mortal fear will also be halved.

I think many of us would be grateful if you would address the RoF issue for archers rather than just talking around the edge of it. At this point I think very few people contributing to this thread believe what you're proposing would be generally beneficial.

How does the change affect melee/ranged hybrids and burst damage builds like the FoTW monkcher? What does it do to equalise RoF between 10k and non 10k builds? Will archers perform better relative to throwers and crossbow users after your changes? To my mind, your changes actually seem to be making these problems worse, not better.

Thanks.

[dng242]

Not quite caught up, but my posts already get too long...

"Spells" are not something anyone directly needs per se. What do you want these spells to do? What are you desiring but not getting?

Rangers clearly don't need "spells" more than anything else. We're pretty confident with our priorities here. Adding new Ranger spells is not more important than any DWS, Tempest, or AA changes we've looked at recently. We understand if you disagree, but in the abstract it's extremely hard to understand why you feel "spells" generically need to be added.



I agree with a lot of people on the spell subject. But then I'm a bit of a DnD homer. In PnP spells are important and make a difference. Between the enhancement system and available gear a huge number of spells (on all classes) are redundant or simply useless. With the massive exception of that one Paladin spell you used to basically rescue that class, your answer to everything tends to be enhancement based. That is one answer, but I would love for more of your answers to class balance to revolve around the core of DnD flexibility, spells and feats.

Don't get me wrong, the enhancements are cool, but don't forget spells and feats.

To give examples

Why can't barkskin stack? All of a sudden it's useful and not overpowered
An equivalent barkskin for dodge?
Also, spells for your new concepts you have added (MRR, PRR, Spell Power, Melee Power, Ranged Power, Doubleshot). (Do have SLA that do this.... why not a few Spells!)
Heck, even the stat buffs could stack. With people running around 60 - 80's... probably not going to break anything, but adds just a little.
How about that 3.5 feat called Manyshot? What used to be the power attack of ranged. Vs the thing you made into Manyshot. Given your desire to address performance issues you could basically treat it like a [w] increase.
A resist spell that give a percent reduction, allowing for better scaling to Epic
Make the DC based spells more "range lvl +" DC. I doubt any would be so powerful as to be OP.
Make Diehard actually relevant in Epic... like when you get a killing bow it only incaps you?


Just some ideas, and not all of them are perfect or should be used, but you get the point.
I know you want to re-invent everything. But you have done so much work just adding what we have. Why not just make it work in a way consistent with the state of the game?

[Propane]

As much as I'm advocating careful changes to Manyshot to make Pure Rangers who specialise in Archery competitive with other Archer builds, please for the love of all things holy don't dilute Manyshot down for the Melee Rangers.


Sad Panda :(

I am sadden by the thought of many shot being nerfed - it is often the best 20s of the day for my melee ranger-
I miss the old days and FUN of hitting many shot and waiting for the random slayer arrows to proc...
Now it looks like many shot itself is at risk. - very sad day..

Manyshot needs to be special and fun - dont' take that way!

Increasing standard bow DPS to keep up with some the xbow users and throwers is a good thing.
DONT do it at the cost of watering down Manyshot - it is one of the best parts of being a ranger - the fun button!


A few thoughts...

1) leave 4 arrows per many shot - reduce range power during many shot to control DPS if needed (say -30 range power during many shot), higher tiers of Ranger Level Reduces penalty (-0 at 20, -10 at 18, -20 at 12)

2) extra many shot arrow per ranger level - +1 at 12, +2 at 18, +3 at 20

3) the cold down timer for 10K stars is paused when Manyshot is active and visa versa. Leave the Core 10Kstars and Manyshot alone and tweak the interaction of them. Still allows for great Burst DPS for each and combined (can do back to back with no cooldown), but doesn't allow nearly 100% of uptime of either (the combined cool down would be needed before either could be used)

[sjbb87]

A final piece of feedback before I head to bed, but an important point I wanted to re-emphasise after stating as much in the Tempest/DWS threads.

Ranger, to me, is the one class that offers some true Versatility even when played pure.



Even if you heavily spec into Melee, you've always had a solid Ranged option backed up with feats and of course, a good 20s burst of Manyshot.
Even if you heavily spec into Ranged, you've always had a full line of TWF feats allowing you to get down and dirty if you need too.


As much as I'm advocating careful changes to Manyshot to make Pure Rangers who specialise in Archery competitive with other Archer builds, please for the love of all things holy don't dilute Manyshot down for the Melee Rangers.

On reflection, I think the current changes penalize Pure Ranger Archers against Monkchers, and penalize Melee Rangers who value their versatility, too much

Sad Panda :(
this.....
Let manyshot it should be,

maybe change this:
Metalline Arrows:
Passive : 10% Manyshot penalty reduction for each additional Arcane Archer Core Ability you acquire.

Master of Imbuement:
You gain +4 Dexterity, +20% Doubleshot chance and a 20% Manyshot penalty reduction (total 50% Manyshot penalty reduction).

35 s of Manyshot penalty

[Requiro]

To the peeps here, what if:
Manyshot and 10k provided a passive buff to doubleshot and had a shared timer clicky attack that fired 4 shots every 12 seconds? This way you have doubleshot running at all times and you could get up to 8 shots with the clicky every 12 seconds?

For me is ok. I don't like burst toons (but I know that lots of people love them)
The catch is in details: How big passive will be?

And BTW: Why these two different feats should be the same? For me it's illogical...

[Ebondevil]

Will the New Arcane Archer work with Crossbows as well, or stay only for bows?

[RD2play]

Ok quick to 28 then tr and put down my bow got it!

thanks for the heads up

[SpectreJ]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

This won't work for Manyshot, it is just to much Doubleshot. a level 20 pure ranger would get 80 Doubleshot from this while it is active, which means having anymore than 20% Doubleshot from anywhere else means losses.

An AA will already have that 20% from its capstone and a potential 5% from shadow arrows, DWS has a potential 20% from killer in T4 (also therefore available to AA) and 20% in strikes like ligtning in T5, so without looking outside the enhancments trees for ranger, we are over cap. a kensai fighter would also get 19% from its tree, pushing it to the edge as well.

Then there is the fact that epic levels give some BAB, so a level 30 Ranger (when it rolls around) would have 100% doubleshot from Manyshot by itself, assuming the epic BAB is incorporated, which I actualy kind of doubt. There isn't enough space for it to give this much Doubleshot as it is, much less for the future. the doubleshot portion needs to be at least halved and replaced with something else with space. Additionally, the amount of Ranged power also is enough to start getting heavily diminished as well. I think it should provided attack speed and Doublestrike at either 2xBAB (or just BAB to leave good growth space) and make up the difference with a percentile non-Ranged Power increase.

You are trying to change a perfectly scaling (minus the work-aroundable Doubleshot penalty) DPS boosts into dual boosts of a capped and dimishing stats. I just don't see there being enough space for the required quantity of DPS increase in the buffs duration within those two stats. You need to either adjust uptime or make it buff more things to keep it from overunning itself.


I can't really comment about 10k Stars, since I haven't ever gotten around to doing a related build, but I expect it has similar issues with it as well.

[mikarddo]

Sorry, I must be tired because I am missing your logic. I apologize. Let me lay out some math and see where we are.

Let's say you have 30% doubleshot, 70 Wisdom, and fire 2 times per second with a bow.
With that Wisdom you can expect around 2.7 shots per attack while 10K Stars is active.

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds.
Manyshot: 20 seconds
Neither: 10 seconds
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds.
Neither: 30 seconds

<Repeat>

Old Way:
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 160 attacks
Neither: 10 seconds - 20 attacks
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks
Neither: 30 seconds - 60 attacks
Total: 564

New Way:
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 80 attacks
Neither: 10 seconds - 26 attacks
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks
Neither: 30 seconds - 78 attacks
Total: 424

Reduction in DPS is ~25% with no ranged power buff.

Sev~

Why assume 30% doubleshot? I have 2% doubleshot from shipbuffs as a monkcher as doubleshot is irrelevant. Building for it will cost me elsewhere so simply assuming 30% DS is not right. With a low doubleshot the gain during "neither time" becomes irrelevant.

Why ignore the fact that with a huge manyshot and a low "neither" damage you can and often do optimise the time running between fights to coincide with "neither time" - thus making the relative difference in number of shots fired greater.

Why ignore the fact that more shots means more Adrenalines recharges and those make up a very important part of the damage output from an epic level archer?

Why ignore the fact that a far less potent Manyshot very significantly lowers the all imporant (and fun) damage from Manyshot + Slayer Arrow + Adrenaline, something which you cannot regain during the "neither time" even with lots of doubleshot.

You seem to have omitted anything that could potentielle show that the change to Manyshot and 10k stars is infact a pretty important nerf by including only the parts that count in favor and not those that count against. You also seem dead set on nerfing Manyshot + Slayer Arrow + Adrenaline which in some ways is understandable except that it makes for a much more dull game when you remove the actually fun and different combos.

[mikarddo]

Hi,

It doesn't help with imbues and on hit weapon effects. For example, the damage from imbues would be halved, and the chances of getting weapon procs like mortal fear will also be halved.

I think many of us would be grateful if you would address the RoF issue for archers rather than just talking around the edge of it. At this point I think very few people contributing to this thread believe what you're proposing would be generally beneficial.

How does the change affect melee/ranged hybrids and burst damage builds like the FoTW monkcher? What does it do to equalise RoF between 10k and non 10k builds? Will archers perform better relative to throwers and crossbow users after your changes? To my mind, your changes actually seem to be making these problems worse, not better.

Thanks.

/signed

[FestusHood]

I personally have never noticed anything lag-like when using manyshot. The damage numbers trail behind, but that happens all the time with many builds. I've never heard anyone mention manyshot as a possible source of lag before now. It seems to me that the number of calculations during manyshot, even when using ips to hit many mobs is dwarfed by what happened any time my shiradi caster fired chain missiles into a group. That actually did cause my client to momentarily freeze every time i did it.

[Aletys]

Except there isnt, no one kept using a bow during the old penalty window at just the base rate. Either you used 10k etc to keep shooting multiple times, or you swapped back to melee and used MS just for a ranged burst (ie, the classic ranger style).

So really... its a nerf. And it counters a RELATIVE boost. Even with no penalty after MS, there is no buff. Its just the same as it would be normally.

Youre turning MS into a doubleshot action boost. Thats a nerf. Straight up.

Do not do this. Go back to the drawing board. This is lame. Thanks.

This. Exactly.

[Rendron]

R.I.P pure monk Thrower



Pure monk is probably the oldest and most widespread thrower build because - as you said in your thread about the bugged crit multiplier - they are still in the top DPS range for throwers. So all the people with a pure monk build (and i know quite a lot) should be considered when the Devs are changing a key element of their build. Especially since it costs a feat slot, action points for Tier 3 Contemplation in Henshin Mystic and a twist slot for Enlightenment in epics to maintain a high passive Ki regeneration. This is quite a high investment and should be rewarded not dismissed.

With the DPS, PRR and MRR increases of the latest melee changes and severely bugged wolf and tree builds as of late i don't think thrower builds should be nerfed even more in comparison. They don't come near any of those DPS numbers anyway. So far the most power of throwers came from the high number of attacks in combination with many damage procs. This is nerfed severely by the changes because of less attacks and procs not being buffed by ranged power. And thus pure monks take the biggest hit.

So this will be very sad if the 10k stars will be changed. Have to roll over my pure monk thrower and go for a moncher again (boring).
Sadly have farmed so much stuff for my build. will see if i still have fun in playing ddo. i hate it if my chars get always screwed up and i have to deal with it.

so how should a pure monk get his doubleshot higher?

10k stars was never supposed to be a bow feat.... its an thrower feat. bow got there manyshot

devs pls think about our thrower builds....

[Grailhawk]

You need to take into account that DPS after these abilities are finished will be increased by your Doubleshot since there is no longer a debuff.

Sev~

That only needs to be looked at if the character is using a bow after manyshot. Are you OK nerfing Rangers who only use bows when manyshot is on cooldown? My understanding was that Stalker was designed around this play style?

Distributing the damage over the two minute period isn't a bad idea and is good for a 100% bow ranger but there are other kinds of Rangers that use Manyshot.

Finally using the doubleshot penalty to justify a manyshot nerf feels kind of (I'll get over it) disingenuous to a player who's been around long enough to remember when the penalty didn't exist.

[Seikojin]

For me is ok. I don't like burst toons (but I know that lots of people love them)
The catch is in details: How big passive will be?

And BTW: Why these two different feats should be the same? For me it's illogical...

I dunno, I was thinking as an alternative that still addresses the devs concerns with existing manyshot/10k situations. Most of my proposals for this version had scaling doubleshot bonuses so its passive benefit would grow with your character. Something like +2 per character level, capping at 40%. The two feats would be the same bonus type, so wouldn't stack. 10k would be for throwers and manyshot for bow/xbow users.

[Qhualor]

There's probably no real need for additional run speed for most ranged characters, especially with the new 10% slow on Paralyzing Arrows - if that's what you need at the time.

We may look into Ranger spells at some point, but this is not that point.


"Spells" are not something anyone directly needs per se. What do you want these spells to do? What are you desiring but not getting?

Rangers clearly don't need "spells" more than anything else. We're pretty confident with our priorities here. Adding new Ranger spells is not more important than any DWS, Tempest, or AA changes we've looked at recently. We understand if you disagree, but in the abstract it's extremely hard to understand why you feel "spells" generically need to be added.

just noticed this. finally got some feedback on this. when Lama is up again, expect a video from me in a PM showing how useless ranger spells are. I would do it on Live right now if I had a ranger, but he is a level 28 warlock at the moment waiting his turn for his next past life.

I will say this though


yes. I consider improving ranger spells to be a quality of life fix. you disagree? heres what I would take for a pure ranger

level 1:

resist energy
jump
rams might
empty

level 2:

protection from elements (never use it though)
barkskin (you need extremely high AC for it to actually be useful)
empty
empty

level 3:

neutralize poison (don't use it because its a mana drain and can just drink pots)
remove disease (don't use it when I can drink pots to save sp)
cure moderate wounds (back up to the back up to the back up)
empty

level 4:

freedom of movement
cure serious wounds
empty
empty

everything else is useless, needs a DC raise to be worth slotting, doesn't stack with gear, pointless or something that makes them not worthy of a spell slot. some, as I have pointed out, I slot more for just in case. there are no hard choices and the all 3 spells that a ranger has for spell damage and/or CC are useless, even with investment.

[Grailhawk]

Actually, I do. Spellpower is Tier 1, spell focus is Tier 2. With this approach, both are going to be needed. & when soloing I want the vulnerability as well as edge.

I was commenting on Spell power vs proc effects. You say I forgot Dragons Edge I didn't because it is not a tier 1 TF effect, you counter by bringing up spell focus something I did not mention at all in the post about Elemental Arrows. Explain how that even make sense?

[mikarddo]

Old Way:
Total: 564

New Way:
Total: 424

Old Way:
Total damage in 2 minutes: 95880 (which of course is the same as the previous damage * 1.7)

New Way:
Total damage in 2 minutes: 98480

Sev~

Lets take just one but very imporant item you missed - the loss of Adrenalines regained from fewer shots fired.

140 fewer shots fired of 2ish arrows each is 140*2/20 = 14 Arenalines fewer (not counting IPS which should make this number go higher). Lets also go really low on damage and assume each Arenaline adds 3k damage (actually, its probably a good deal more). 14 * 3k = 52k damage lost from fewer Adrenalines. Where does that fit into your calculations?

Oh, and this does not even include the loss on using Adrenalines as you no longer have the superb 4 arrow shots to use them with.

Please rerun all your numbers while you add in all the relevant effects and lets see if you still dont see what most others seem to be seeing - that the changes to MS and 10k are infact significant nerfs.

[dng242]

There's at least a few different builds that we're going to be trying to balance, and no matter what we do, It's Complicated. We are trying hard to make sure 6 monk levels are not JUST better, and we think we're getting there. We're happy to hear more ideas. We disagree that the monkcher just has a huge advantage, but we need to do more testing, and will be happy to hear about player builds and tests and math.





Sorry, I must be tired because I am missing your logic. I apologize. Let me lay out some math and see where we are.

Let's say you have 30% doubleshot, 70 Wisdom, and fire 2 times per second with a bow.

With that Wisdom you can expect around 2.7 shots per attack while 10K Stars is active.

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds.
Manyshot: 20 seconds
Neither: 10 seconds
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds.
Neither: 30 seconds

<Repeat>

Old Way:
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 160 attacks
Neither: 10 seconds - 20 attacks
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks
Neither: 30 seconds - 60 attacks

Total: 564



Vargouille,

If I take Severlin's post and extrapolate on the math for a pure range vs monk combo then I think the problem is larger that you seem willing to admit.

As I see it you will never fix this problem so long as you have two boosts that increase damage so much. Any build that has access to both boosts will have a huge advantage vs one that doesn't.

This leaves you with:

Nerfing the current boosts - Everyone loves that
Making them exclusive - Won't make you popular
Add a feat/spell/enhancement such that the equivalent of 10k is available in output, if not in name, to non-10k wisdom builds - While not my favorite, probably the odds on favorite.
Increasing the current base dps so these boosts are insignificant - A little boring
Make them function different (e.g. they could work 100% of the time but only can use one at a time, one could work with thrown and one with bows, Have a cooldown on each that negates the other, etc). - Workable, but would need to balance and would annoy a lot of people (I prefer this approach, but I have no illusions that many will like this).

[Basura_Grande]

Doubleshot is currently intended to have a chance on each shot on a repeater at 1/3 the normal chance.


Then it's bugged as it's working much better than that.

As stuff's looking now repeater and thrower rangers will be much better than bows, and thats' really dumb.

[EllisDee37]

Movement speed is probably already fine for Arcane Archers. I'm worried I'm being too generous giving a no-save -10% movement speed to AAs!How is this justified when a pure rogue mechanic using great crossbows gets +40% rate of fire from mechanic and +20% run speed (for 3 AP!) from acrobat?

EDIT: Great crossbow mechanics appear to be superior to longbow users in every way: faster run speed, much higher rate of fire, plus they get to use situational ammo thanks to fletching. Bow users only ever get to use their crappy returners.

[Mindos]

One reason is to not take that away from current players who have often invested years into those characters. It's something we sometimes feel necessary to do but we avoid that when we can.

Another is that it's a moderately complex build that rewards a good player who's paying attention. While monks get some bonuses other ranged characters don't, it goes the other way as well, which means we don't see a reason for it to not be top tier. Again, not everything has to be - while I would love to see an amazing Elven Occult Slayer Arcane Archer make it work, it's not a priority for us to change things to make that top tier. But we're not going to intentionally try to push down existing fun characters any more than absolutely necessary (if necessary at all).

If a bone breaks, and heals incorrectly, you MUST break it in order to set it properly. Is this game broke? To some degree, yes. Why else would we be making changes? And if changes are warrented, then perhaps some breakage is needed as well. Snapping off the abominations that have festered over the years so that the game can heal and grow properly is what you should be doing. Making excuses about the proliferation of such builds when they should never have existed for this long to begin with? Wag of the finger!

And why are we talking about Monk at all? This is the RANGER pass for Bhaal's sake! With such fretting around and constant concern for the other classes, playing this what if game is exausting. Why don't we focus on ranger now and worry about the other classes when we get to them? Do you view Ranger as a full and proper class? Or is it just a splash class to you? Make decisions based on it being a strong and proper class of its own, not based on what some other class might take from it?

Why isn't the question instead how much of another class will a ranger be tempted to splash instead of how much ranger will the others take?

[Holymunchkin]

Then it's bugged as it's working much better than that.

As stuff's looking now repeater and thrower rangers will be much better than bows, and thats' really dumb.

ya repeaters get 100% of doubleshot on each bolt.

you should consider nerfing this. (I play a pure ranger repeater right now in DWS and it is arguably slightly better than mechanic.)

Devs PLEASE keep in mind how imbues currently affect shuri throwers. Buffs to imbues are more-so beneficial for a shuri than they are for a pure ranger AA.

The nerf to manyshot and its burst ability is IMO very wierd.

Why not just leave the ability as is---and find another way to buff bows?

Its an old feat and nerfing it seems very strange and unnecessary. I don't think you guys need to fix what isn't broke. lol

[Requiro]

(...)

Make them function different (e.g. they could work 100% of the time but only can use one at a time, one could work with thrown and one with bows, Have a cooldown on each that negates the other, etc). - Workable, but would need to balance and would annoy a lot of people (I prefer this approach, but I have no illusions that many will like this).


/signed

[Erik_Loki]

What are your ideas about how these broad principles should vary between Ranger AA and Elf AA ?

Should focus and abilities be very different between the two, identical, or simply variant ?

I'm sorry but you're doing the same error that the devs do... this is the wrong question cause it's not the time to focus and concentrate the energy to create a new tree... we need a strong adjustment to the AA. Leave them absolutely identical, who cares? if you're putting DC on the AA's arrow it's obvious you know(not you directly it's an example) less than John Snow about this game. The player's opinions aren't really considered and the development is going in the wrong direction, sadly, and the real ones (those who play daily) have my same fear.

[Eldried]

If a bone breaks, and heals incorrectly, you MUST break it in order to set it properly. Is this game broke? To some degree, yes. Why else would we be making changes? And if changes are warrented, then perhaps some breakage is needed as well. Snapping off the abominations that have festered over the years so that the game can heal and grow properly is what you should be doing. Making excuses about the proliferation of such builds when they should never have existed for this long to begin with? Wag of the finger!

And why are we talking about Monk at all? This is the RANGER pass for Bhaal's sake! With such fretting around and constant concern for the other classes, playing this what if game is exausting. Why don't we focus on ranger now and worry about the other classes when we get to them? Do you view Ranger as a full and proper class? Or is it just a splash class to you? Make decisions based on it being a strong and proper class of its own, not based on what some other class might take from it?

Why isn't the question instead how much of another class will a ranger be tempted to splash instead of how much ranger will the others take?


We are talking about other classes(Monk in this case) because a MONK ability Ten Throusand stars is being nerved with the ranger pass. Which sucks.

[MrWindupBird]

Caught up, 4 bigger-picture thoughts so far. First two regarding manyshot changes:

Point 1:

The fun part of playing an archer (to me) is maximizing the damage I get from Manyshot + Slayer Arrows + Adrenaline.

Sure, my sustained damage is well below most other builds - but hitting a string of enemies with a combo is FUN. Further, it makes for a different gameplay than most other builds which I consider a very good thing (tm). These changes seem to aim towards lowering the burst damage very considerably which upping the sustained damage some - but that removes the fun and different part from the play style while simply making it more like other builds.

Whats the point in claiming to want to further build diversity if the actual effect is to remove the actually different play style?

This is a really good point. Fury/slaying/manyshot interaction is kind of unique in DDO: it's a fun combo mechanic, something more like an arcade game and requiring a different sort of timer/spacing management than anything else. Losing the manyshot spike means you lose that whole playstyle. I wouldn't be totally heartbroken (I rarely play my AA now), but I think further homogenization/loss of playstyle diversity is something to be avoided. AA playstyle is separate and strange (at least in Fury), keep it that way. Also there won't be any use for the Fury ED with new changes- it will go the way of Magister.


Point 2:

That only needs to be looked at if the character is using a bow after manyshot. Are you OK nerfing Rangers who only use bows when manyshot is on cooldown? My understanding was that Stalker was designed around this play style?

Distributing the damage over the two minute period isn't a bad idea and is good for a 100% bow ranger but there are other kinds of Rangers that use Manyshot.

Finally using the doubleshot penalty to justify a manyshot nerf feels kind of (I'll get over it) disingenuous to a player who's been around long enough to remember when the penalty didn't exist.

Another great point. The feat investment, even on a 6+ranger build, to get a good burst ranged option is significant (PBS/Icrit/Combat Archery). Again, loss of manyshot functionality will erode a sort of niche playstyle, the melee-with-manyshot hybrid. I'd much prefer to see that stay, for reasons similar to the above: it's fun, it's thematic, it requires a different sort of situational and tactical awareness, and it certainly isn't overpowered.


Point 3:
I'm sensing a lot of pre-emptive pushback by the devs on giving rangers run-speed. This is misguided, for a few reasons. One: literally every single class touched since the enhancement revamps began has enhanced run speed (bard, barb, pally+fighter via stance, rogue, warlock via SoulEater). What has led you to believe that the runspeed contributes to the current powercreep? Has there been a single complaint? I haven't heard any, other than the erosion of that which once made monks unique (that ship has sailed and spawned an entire armada). Runspeed is convenience and makes the combat much more fun, especially on a melee. Giving runspeed to everyone else but not to rangers (a light-armored, fleet archetype) feels wrong, and makes no sense from lore or flavor perspectives. I wager the hesitation is due to concerns over kiting. Guess what: you dont need runspeed to kite. It is almost 100% about pathing, not runspeed: there are very few linear footraces in DDO, and precious few things that run at player speed +/-10%. They're either much slower or much faster. Further, if concerned about kiting (and you should be, with reaper coming), the way to manage this is via hamstring, chains, environmental effects that force close distance, and good encounter design. If your plan to stop kiting is to maintain base runspeed, here's a newsflash: it wont work.
So, please for the love of God just change Longstrider to provide a +15% self movement speed, stacking. It is a feel thing, but it is an important feel thing: feeling slow sucks, particularly on a melee where you have to close gaps.



Point 4:
I dont have the time or diversity of toons to do this, but it's pretty critical that we have a good idea of the differences in base rate of fire (before any doubleshot/manyshot/10k/fusillade etc) of ranged options. Repeating xbow, great xbow with T5 mechanic, bow, and thrown weapons. Right now bow has a significantly lower rate of fire than other options, but I dont know how much. If anyone else can test BAB 28 cases, that would be really helpful.

[Delacroix21]

Can we seriously stop the monkercher whining?

Here is some basic math: with new trees (and current gear/past lives) pure rangers can get 72% double shot, 92% with killer stacks (making manyshot only a ranged power boost as the double shot benefit is unnoticeable at 8%).


10k stars monkerchers can get at best 47% double shot, 67% with killer.


So sure, keep playing monkercher or asking for nerfs.

[Severlin]

ya repeaters get 100% of doubleshot on each bolt.


Repeaters divide Doubleshot by 3 before they check to see if the crossbow got another shot. If that's not working it's a bug. I'll test it.

Edit: It was indeed not working. Should be fixed in the next build.

Sev~

[Aletys]

I personally have never noticed anything lag-like when using manyshot. The damage numbers trail behind, but that happens all the time with many builds. I've never heard anyone mention manyshot as a possible source of lag before now. It seems to me that the number of calculations during manyshot, even when using ips to hit many mobs is dwarfed by what happened any time my shiradi caster fired chain missiles into a group. That actually did cause my client to momentarily freeze every time i did it.

This.
/Signed

[jakeelala]

Repeaters divide Doubleshot by 3 before they check to see if the crossbow got another shot. If that's not working it's a bug. I'll test it.

Sev~

Please do test it

[RD2play]

nice to see ranger change into a sustained damage build, I am sad tho that the burst option will be no more :(

[CrackedIce]

There a lot of really solid major points being raised in this thread and I wish I had time to chime in on some of these.

Anyway, I just want to bring out a small seemingly insignificant point in light of all the groundbreaking discussion in this thread.

Please change requirement for elven AA to be flat 14 ap points spent in tree. 4 wasted points to unlock the elven tree is a hold-over from pre enhancement tree days. The opportunity cost with going into elven AA is intrinsic in having to already spend 14 ap points that could have been used for points in the more powerful class trees. Especially considering you would be giving up level 18 core in a class tree (other than elven AA obviously) by spending filler ap in racial tree. These 14 points are not completely worthless, just much weaker than say spending to get into 18 core or even giving up some of the low hanging fruit in other trees. (Yes there is still about 21 ap left to spend elsewhere, but we are talking about an additional crucial 14 ap! - with all the recent revamps being forced to spend 4 ap on just unlocking this tree as I see it should not be a requirement)

Another quality of life change I would go for is tie conjure arrows to core one so that as soon as you put 1 ap into AA you can conjure +1 arcane arrows. This gives tempest deepwood rangers an easier time for having unlimited arrows. I have a tempest ranger and cannot find 3 ap free to spend for conjure arrows. For only 1 ap I may find that worthy of taking from elsewhere...

[Spekdah_NZ]

Elven 12 Ranger 6 Monk:
31 points to get Crit in AA,
21 points to get crit in DWS,
14 points to get the Elven AA tree (so you don't need 18 Ranger for the AA Core Crit)

I was comparing by classic monkcher (12M/6R/2P) with the above for losses/gains

dropping from 12 to 6 monk the main losses are; (need 12 ranger for crit range in DWS)
* Abundant Step
* Improved Evasion
* and some extra run speed

6 monk still gets you;
* 3 extra martial feats at 1, 2, 6 (lets you grab precision, 10k stars and master of forms)
* Still twist dance of flowers for +1.5W
* mountain stance for +2/3 con, +12/15%AC, +12/15 PRR and +1 crit multi on a 19,20 depending on master/grandmaster of forms

Doesn't the mountain stance crit stack? So dropping 6 monkey levels for me +1 extra threat and 1 extra crit? I need coffee.

[ecgric]

Action Boosts reduced:
Yay. Any AP reduction is always nice.

DC Based Arrow Stances:
I agree with the general opinion that the DC should be based on DEX, not WIS. As many have stated, this would give more power to the Monkcher build than a "more traditional" Ranger Archer. The Devs apparently agree that the archer is intended as a DEX build, otherwise why put +4 DEX as the capstone reward. I can see the idea of WIS due to that being the stat for Ranger casting, but let's face it, Archers focus on DEX.
As for other changes to Paralyzing/Terror/Smiting/Banishing, I'll reserve judgement until I get more details.

Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock):
This is definitely something that needs to be improved. The fact that these currently don't scale is a problem. I think the proposed changes will work well, but I don't feel like doing to math to determine if it's too much or not enough.

Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):
Since many class enhancement trees already have options of a crit multiplier, this makes sense.

Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):
As I said above, this just shows that the Devs feel the AA is DEX based, not WIS.


As to other items discussed in this thread:
I think changes need to happen to allow easier access to changing the arrows being used. It's too much trouble to open a quiver, pull out the arrows you want, put them into the active use slot.

Manyshot could use some changes to help balance the DPS spike that AA does. 20 seconds doing 4x damage, then wait for 100 seconds. Usually the only time my AA can keep up with the DPS of others is during that 20 seconds. Personally, I would be willing to reduce the number of shots if I could use Manyshot more often. Perhaps a Tier 5 3-step AA enhancement to reduce the cooldown to 100/80/60?

[CrackedIce]

Caught up, 4 bigger-picture thoughts so far. First two regarding manyshot changes:

Point 1:


This is a really good point. Fury/slaying/manyshot interaction is kind of unique in DDO: it's a fun combo mechanic, something more like an arcade game and requiring a different sort of timer/spacing management than anything else. Losing the manyshot spike means you lose that whole playstyle. I wouldn't be totally heartbroken (I rarely play my AA now), but I think further homogenization/loss of playstyle diversity is something to be avoided. AA playstyle is separate and strange (at least in Fury), keep it that way. Also there won't be any use for the Fury ED with new changes- it will go the way of Magister.


Point 2:


Another great point. The feat investment, even on a 6+ranger build, to get a good burst ranged option is significant (PBS/Icrit/Combat Archery). Again, loss of manyshot functionality will erode a sort of niche playstyle, the melee-with-manyshot hybrid. I'd much prefer to see that stay, for reasons similar to the above: it's fun, it's thematic, it requires a different sort of situational and tactical awareness, and it certainly isn't overpowered.


Point 3:
I'm sensing a lot of pre-emptive pushback by the devs on giving rangers run-speed. This is misguided, for a few reasons. One: literally every single class touched since the enhancement revamps began has enhanced run speed (bard, barb, pally+fighter via stance, rogue, warlock via SoulEater). What has led you to believe that the runspeed contributes to the current powercreep? Has there been a single complaint? I haven't heard any, other than the erosion of that which once made monks unique (that ship has sailed and spawned an entire armada). Runspeed is convenience and makes the combat much more fun, especially on a melee. Giving runspeed to everyone else but not to rangers (a light-armored, fleet archetype) feels wrong, and makes no sense from lore or flavor perspectives. I wager the hesitation is due to concerns over kiting. Guess what: you dont need runspeed to kite. It is almost 100% about pathing, not runspeed: there are very few linear footraces in DDO, and precious few things that run at player speed +/-10%. They're either much slower or much faster. Further, if concerned about kiting (and you should be, with reaper coming), the way to manage this is via hamstring, chains, environmental effects that force close distance, and good encounter design. If your plan to stop kiting is to maintain base runspeed, here's a newsflash: it wont work.
So, please for the love of God just change Longstrider to provide a +15% self movement speed, stacking. It is a feel thing, but it is an important feel thing: feeling slow sucks, particularly on a melee where you have to close gaps.



Point 4:
I dont have the time or diversity of toons to do this, but it's pretty critical that we have a good idea of the differences in base rate of fire (before any doubleshot/manyshot/10k/fusillade etc) of ranged options. Repeating xbow, great xbow with T5 mechanic, bow, and thrown weapons. Right now bow has a significantly lower rate of fire than other options, but I dont know how much. If anyone else can test BAB 28 cases, that would be really helpful.

Excellent posts all around. Nothing to add here.

[Grace_ana]

This is a lot to process and comment on, but there are some pretty serious issues to be addressed. Hopefully I won't have missed anything. Though, sine my comments and questions to the devs seem to almost never be answered...

I very much agree with Varg that the really difficult part is balancing non-monk archers with ranger archers in a way that doesn't completely ruin everyone's build but makes both viable. I just don't think that what has been proposed addresses that. There are a couple major factors in those two archer versions that need to be addressed: Manyshot/10K Stars (and thank you, Sev, for beginning that conversation), and rate of fire.

Problem: Manyshot/10K Stars

The problem is that if one of those groups has access to both, they inherently have more power available than the other group. While I'm aware that there are other things you can factor in, they are both big bursts of damage either way. The proposed changes don't fix this; they are a nerf to both types of archers and throwers on top of it.

The assumptions that archers are starting from maybe 30% doubleshot is a big part of that problem. As many have pointed out, most archers have a lot more than that. On my ranger I can easily get: 25% from AA, 20% from DWS, 10% from doubleshot feat, and 20% from Pinion (and Pinion isn't so uncommon since the raider's reward boxes). That's 75% without even trying. It also doesn't count the huge doubleshot bonuses in Divine Crusader (because not everyone runs in Fury). By making this particular change to Manyshot and 10K Stars, you are basically negating the usefulness of all other sources of doubleshot.

Proposed solution:

As you have already said, it would be awfully tough to boost everything at the same time. We will likely end up with archers that are more DC focused and ones that are more sustained damage focused. It would be nice if we could also retain ones that are burst focused as well. So what about changing the Manyshot feat to work similarly to the 10K Stars feat?

Currently, 10K Stars shoots more projectiles depending on how high your wisdom is. Can we simply change Manyshot to do the same but dependent on the dex stat? While some people can certainly get each stat high, you can really only full-****** invest in one of them. As you take away from one to put into the other, it establishes a balance between them. And, if you don't have the 10K Stars option because you don't have monk levels, you can dump lots into dex if you so choose and make up for that loss.

And drop the doubleshot penalties entirely. They don't fit with the current enhancement/feat/destiny landscape.

Problem: Rate of Fire

Archers lag way, way, waaaay behind everyone else on this. Attack speed for melee is much faster. Attack speed for throwers is faster (thanks to either monk levels or alacrity from mechanic). I also find it hard to believe your assumption of an attack rate of two arrows per second. I am not seeing that. It's very frustrating to plink away slowly at things when anyone else - even other ranged builds like crossbow users or throwers - can zoom out their attacks faster. I don't understand the resistance to an alacrity increase for archers, and though it has been brought up by lots of people in many of these official threads, it still has not been discussed by a dev.

Of course, an archer with monk levels can attack much faster. So the balancing act for that is the tricky part as well.

Proposed solution:

Add alacrity into the tree, but make it work only if the toon is wearing light, medium, or heavy armor. You have other examples of this type of exclusion in the other trees as well, so it can certainly be done. I'd prefer that over not adding it to the racial tree, because that would hurt non-monk-non-ranger builds, which doesn't make sense.

Problem: Arrows causing lag

Sev cited the "expense" of multiple arrows. We have all seen the lag caused by archer mobs for sure. The problem is that the archer lag still exists for every other archer, player or mob, even with a manyshot/10K nerf. So by nerfing (and it is a nerf, the math carries that out), all you are doing is putting archers behind without actually solving the lag issue.

Proposed solution:

I don't have one, because you guys haven't really addressed or discussed it in enough detail to do so. We don't know why the archers cause so much lag. But realistically, if you wanted to fairly address it in game, you would have to do one of the following:

1. Fix the lag, or
2. Do a pass that removes the doubleshot from the entire game.

One of those is something you could do but would make everyone incredibly angry (even more than the fabled TWF nerf of yore), and one of those is, admittedly, not exactly easy. But the fact remains that you can't keep classes relatively balanced by removing a huge amount of dps from just one or two classes and leaving that dps in for everyone else. Manyshot/10K Stars makes up for a comparative lack of DPS on bows and throwing weapons. Nerfing it just makes them nonviable.

Problem: Proposed capstone doesn't fit with tree options

If the options are to offer either a strong DPS archer (dex) or a DC-based archer (wis), then wis should appear in the capstone as well.

Proposed solution:

Instead of +4 dex, add +2 dex and +2 wis.

Other comments and questions:

1. Slaying arrows are tier 5. They are the heroic equivalent of an epic moment. Don't pull back their power. If you make tier 5 abilities meh, there's no point in taking them at all, as you give up other tier 5 abilities in other trees for them. Anything you wait for, build for, and give up other options for should be powerful.

2. Still waiting to find out if the imbue stances will be affected by metamagics. I would like it if the elemental and force stances were affected by maximize and empower, and the DC stances were affected by heighten. I think it makes sense from a thematic standpoint, it is consistent with the rest of the spells and abilities in the game, and it also forces some more choices as well as giving options in the way of feat selection. It also gives a bit of a boost to ranger AA since they have a bit more feat space than others, which I think is perfectly fair given the other options other classes might get (holy sword, better defenses, etc.).

3. Please fix arrow stacking or quiver hotkeying so that archers can actually effectively use their various arrows.

[CrackedIce]

This is a lot to process and comment on, but there are some pretty serious issues to be addressed. Hopefully I won't have missed anything. Though, sine my comments and questions to the devs seem to almost never be answered...

I very much agree with Varg that the really difficult part is balancing non-monk archers with ranger archers in a way that doesn't completely ruin everyone's build but makes both viable. I just don't think that what has been proposed addresses that. There are a couple major factors in those two archer versions that need to be addressed: Manyshot/10K Stars (and thank you, Sev, for beginning that conversation), and rate of fire.

Problem: Manyshot/10K Stars

The problem is that if one of those groups has access to both, they inherently have more power available than the other group. While I'm aware that there are other things you can factor in, they are both big bursts of damage either way. The proposed changes don't fix this; they are a nerf to both types of archers and throwers on top of it.

The assumptions that archers are starting from maybe 30% doubleshot is a big part of that problem. As many have pointed out, most archers have a lot more than that. On my ranger I can easily get: 25% from AA, 20% from DWS, 10% from doubleshot feat, and 20% from Pinion (and Pinion isn't so uncommon since the raider's reward boxes). That's 75% without even trying. It also doesn't count the huge doubleshot bonuses in Divine Crusader (because not everyone runs in Fury). By making this particular change to Manyshot and 10K Stars, you are basically negating the usefulness of all other sources of doubleshot.

Proposed solution:

As you have already said, it would be awfully tough to boost everything at the same time. We will likely end up with archers that are more DC focused and ones that are more sustained damage focused. It would be nice if we could also retain ones that are burst focused as well. So what about changing the Manyshot feat to work similarly to the 10K Stars feat?

Currently, 10K Stars shoots more projectiles depending on how high your wisdom is. Can we simply change Manyshot to do the same but dependent on the dex stat? While some people can certainly get each stat high, you can really only full-****** invest in one of them. As you take away from one to put into the other, it establishes a balance between them. And, if you don't have the 10K Stars option because you don't have monk levels, you can dump lots into dex if you so choose and make up for that loss.

And drop the doubleshot penalties entirely. They don't fit with the current enhancement/feat/destiny landscape.

Problem: Rate of Fire

Archers lag way, way, waaaay behind everyone else on this. Attack speed for melee is much faster. Attack speed for throwers is faster (thanks to either monk levels or alacrity from mechanic). I also find it hard to believe your assumption of an attack rate of two arrows per second. I am not seeing that. It's very frustrating to plink away slowly at things when anyone else - even other ranged builds like crossbow users or throwers - can zoom out their attacks faster. I don't understand the resistance to an alacrity increase for archers, and though it has been brought up by lots of people in many of these official threads, it still has not been discussed by a dev.

Of course, an archer with monk levels can attack much faster. So the balancing act for that is the tricky part as well.

Proposed solution:

Add alacrity into the tree, but make it work only if the toon is wearing light, medium, or heavy armor. You have other examples of this type of exclusion in the other trees as well, so it can certainly be done. I'd prefer that over not adding it to the racial tree, because that would hurt non-monk-non-ranger builds, which doesn't make sense.

Problem: Arrows causing lag

Sev cited the "expense" of multiple arrows. We have all seen the lag caused by archer mobs for sure. The problem is that the archer lag still exists for every other archer, player or mob, even with a manyshot/10K nerf. So by nerfing (and it is a nerf, the math carries that out), all you are doing is putting archers behind without actually solving the lag issue.

Proposed solution:

I don't have one, because you guys haven't really addressed or discussed it in enough detail to do so. We don't know why the archers cause so much lag. But realistically, if you wanted to fairly address it in game, you would have to do one of the following:

1. Fix the lag, or
2. Do a pass that removes the doubleshot from the entire game.

One of those is something you could do but would make everyone incredibly angry (even more than the fabled TWF nerf of yore), and one of those is, admittedly, not exactly easy. But the fact remains that you can't keep classes relatively balanced by removing a huge amount of dps from just one or two classes and leaving that dps in for everyone else. Manyshot/10K Stars makes up for a comparative lack of DPS on bows and throwing weapons. Nerfing it just makes them nonviable.

Problem: Proposed capstone doesn't fit with tree options

If the options are to offer either a strong DPS archer (dex) or a DC-based archer (wis), then wis should appear in the capstone as well.

Proposed solution:

Instead of +4 dex, add +2 dex and +2 wis.

Other comments and questions:

1. Slaying arrows are tier 5. They are the heroic equivalent of an epic moment. Don't pull back their power. If you make tier 5 abilities meh, there's no point in taking them at all, as you give up other tier 5 abilities in other trees for them. Anything you wait for, build for, and give up other options for should be powerful.

2. Still waiting to find out if the imbue stances will be affected by metamagics. I would like it if the elemental and force stances were affected by maximize and empower, and the DC stances were affected by heighten. I think it makes sense from a thematic standpoint, it is consistent with the rest of the spells and abilities in the game, and it also forces some more choices as well as giving options in the way of feat selection. It also gives a bit of a boost to ranger AA since they have a bit more feat space than others, which I think is perfectly fair given the other options other classes might get (holy sword, better defenses, etc.).

3. Please fix arrow stacking or quiver hotkeying so that archers can actually effectively use their various arrows.

Arg! And these points are solid as well. I too have would like you to consider whether manyshot should be the dex equivalent for 10k. This is something I was playing around myself, but am not a maths guy to fit the validity of the idea along with the other enhancement changes and resulting power of it. Either way, I personally would not want to see the removal of the FUN button that is manyshot. And would still like to see it as a high investment dps utility item. Under the current proposal, I just do not see that. As a melee and ranged toon, especially for those who sunk feats into it, would like to see its utility remain somewhat intact.

Thanks.

[caberonia]

Snip


Amazing. Hopefully this is the beginning of an overall pass of DC abilities in general. I would like to think that your willingness to do this points toward an overall plan of fixing various DC scaling issues.

However I want to point out that ARCANE archers DCs should be INT based not wisdom. The premise for Arcane archer is arcane magic not wisdom based divine stuff. There should be some inherent synergy with wizard splashes for the proper flavor of the tree since the actual premise is arcane magic being imbued on arrows not divine magic.

The current plan creates more synergy with divine splashes than arcane. (wis instead of int based DC)

Wizard is generally a very weak splash for almost anybuild, arcane archers should be one of the few exceptions to that rule...

[EllisDee37]

Add alacrity into the tree, but make it work only if the toon is wearing light, medium, or heavy armor. You have other examples of this type of exclusion in the other trees as well, so it can certainly be done. I'd prefer that over not adding it to the racial tree, because that would hurt non-monk-non-ranger builds, which doesn't make sense.Actually, for lore purposes it would be fine if it only worked with light armor. Regardless if it's just light, or light+medium+heavy, this is a clever solution to balancing pure rangers with monkchers. Just sprinkle in armor requirements and voila, problem mitigated.


3. Please fix arrow stacking or quiver hotkeying so that archers can actually effectively use their various arrows.Stack size in inventory is a superior solution to quiver hotkeying for a simple reason: You can hover your mouse over a hotbarred stack of arrows to remind yourself what it is.

I could envision having 10 different stacks of 300 bane arrows (from inventory) on a hotbar, and could then easily refresh my memory as to which is which by either hovering over them, or in the case of holy arrows just see it by the different icon.

By contrast, if we could hotbar quivers for fast switching, you'd end up with a bunch of identical quiver icons with no way to easily remind yourself which one was which.

However, and I can't stress this enough, it's all irrelevant if we don't get some kind of fletching. If we can't make ammo returnable, all anyone will ever use are the boring AA returners.

[EllisDee37]

Another quality of life change I would go for is tie conjure arrows to core one so that as soon as you put 1 ap into AA you can conjure +1 arcane arrows. This gives tempest deepwood rangers an easier time for having unlimited arrows. I have a tempest ranger and cannot find 3 ap free to spend for conjure arrows. For only 1 ap I may find that worthy of taking from elsewhere...Meh. For 0 AP you can buy 75% returners from house deneith favor.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Repeaters divide Doubleshot by 3 before they check to see if the crossbow got another shot. If that's not working it's a bug. I'll test it.

Edit: It was indeed not working. Should be fixed in the next build.

Sev~

https://megblurt.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/exc.gif

[Mindos]

Repeaters divide Doubleshot by 3 before they check to see if the crossbow got another shot. If that's not working it's a bug. I'll test it.

Edit: It was indeed not working. Should be fixed in the next build.

Sev~

http://ddowiki.com/page/Doubleshot
"Some descriptions say that repeating crossbows receive a reduced benefit from Doubleshot but testing seems to refute the claim of reduced effectiveness with repeaters as of March 7, 2014 (Update 20.1). (See the talk page (http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Doubleshot).)"

Known broken since first quarter 2014. When was the Rogue pass again? Why didn't dps testing discover this? Why didn't anyone on the Players Council tell you it was broken?

Sorry to be a stick in the mud, but these are important questions and you are the producer. How can we change the game forward if we don't know how it stands to begin with?

[CrackedIce]

Since this is the AA enhancement pass, and you are adding spell power to imbues and sharadi champion is supposed to be AA epic destiny, will you be allowing spell power to scale with sharadi stances as well?

[CelticTrojan]

Hi Vargouille,
Thanks for the preview and detailed feedback on the community concerns. This is going to be controversial and difficult to balance. Comments below and my contributions.

WIS for DC.
Ok I can see the Ranger fit for this, and it is appropriate within the ranger AA tree. I get that you want it to be the "caster" tree, at least in part, and have some support for that. However ....

Rangers have traditionally dumped WIS. Now they will have some reason to rethink that path (good more diversity) but this change will require more than an enhancment reset (bad) Cue the cries of free hearts to change the builds.

Ranger spells suck is the common cry, and there is some point to that. There are only 4 spells (per wiki) that have WIS DC saves - Charm/Hold Animal, Entangle, Snare and these are L1 and L2. Not much for a WIS based ranger there. I would propose Mass Charm/Hold Animal (needs new spells) at L3 and L4 respectively or better add Charm Monster (L3) and Dominate Monster (L4) (Much less work needed and great improvement to Ranger casting). As it is there are too few L3 L4 useful spells to even fill the slots we get. Another consideration would be higher level versions of Entangle/Snare as well. And yes high WIS gives better will saves but that can be achieved elsewhere.

Racial AA using WIS DC is less appropriate IMHO. Is it intended to make it more difficult for a Wiz/Sorc/Bard Racial AA to compete with a Monk/Cleric/Fvs/Druid Racial AA on the DC part of AA? For the racial AA I would propose highest stat of WIS/INT/CHA for the DC as lore wise and game wise being more suitable. Leave the Ranger AA as proposed as the 14 AP penalty for Racial AA will balance that out.

Would it be possible to take into account these builds in your calculations? -
Racial AA - Pure Druid / Cleric / FvS - Naturally high DC's for some versions of these, leading to Upper limit DC breaking gameplay ie. Fail on 1 Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows ?

Hmm Pure Druid Racial AA .... now there is another ALT character if ever I saw one ,hmmmmm strokes goatee beard .....

Elemental/Force Damage improvements
Excellllllleeennnnntttttt :-)

+1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier
Likewise great and excellent synergy with DWS (the hybrid tree - I like that idea, should be used elsewhere, looking at Fighter / FvS/ Arti)

Mystical Archer cap needs love; + 2 WIS , + 2 DEX gets my vote, more appropriate and perhaps + 1 DC Enchantment ?

I have to say I find all the T5 AA Enhancements to lack a little, will need to review after this partial pass, roll on Lammania testing.

Footnote 2 - Hell yes, whats good for PC's is just as good for Mobs.

Footnote PS. - I see what you did there lol love it.

Manyshot and 10k redesign I like so far, lag is bad and anything to reduce is good. And doubleshot cooldown must die in a hail of many AA arrows lol

Hope the above is interesting and useful,

CelticTrojan

[Certon]

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon1.

Arcane Archer
Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses


Wisdom? How about CHA, INT, or WIS, whichever is greater? At least then you cover all types of casters becoming AAs.

[Xionanx]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Doubleshot
"Some descriptions say that repeating crossbows receive a reduced benefit from Doubleshot but testing seems to refute the claim of reduced effectiveness with repeaters as of March 7, 2014 (Update 20.1). (See the talk page (http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Doubleshot).)"

Known broken since first quarter 2014. When was the Rogue pass again? Why didn't dps testing discover this? Why didn't anyone on the Players Council tell you it was broken?

Sorry to be a stick in the mud, but these are important questions and you are the producer. How can we change the game forward if we don't know how it stands to begin with?



Willing to be it doesn't actually get fixed due to some "technical limitation" that prevents them from adjusting repeaters since it will affect non-repeaters too or some other non-sense.

The fact they weren't aware is testament to the devs "head in the sand" style of development. They claim they "play the game" be it boggles my mind how time and time again they make wrong statements about things that are common knowledge to the community.

I dont even know why I am still reading these forums, I deleted DDO from my computer last week... and these changes to AA are too little too late, plus the non-sense nerf to manyshot...

BOWS need:
1. Increased BASE Rate of fire - regardless of class
2. Manyshot needs to be a passive that gives enough doubleshot that its not a "nerf" (been saying this for YEARS)
3. Doubleshot above 100% needs to have a chance of procing a 3rd arrow
4. RP/MP needs to apply to weapon effects/procs, not just base damage. 1d6 "Energy" damage on your weapon wouldn't suck as much with RP/MP buffing it.
5. 10k Stars needs to work with throwing weapons only
6. Manyshot needs to work with Bows Only (Monkchers just need to suck it up and reroll, it won't be the first time a munchkin build was made invalid by mechanics changes and it SHOULDN'T be the last.)
7. The Combat Log needs to be made available for DPS parsing so players have actual RAW DATA to look at and compare. (seriously, its about time this was made available)
8. Lamania needs to be up 24/7 for testing purposes.
9. Dungeon Alert needs to be removed
10. Dungeon Scaling needs to be removed
11. Over Level penalties need to be removed
12. Power level penalties need to be removed (these last 4 just make since at this point in the game lifespan, open up the game so people can PLAY TOGETHER)

The AA Elemental Imbues getting better at higher ranks is a good thing, its something that I was suggesting WAY back months ago. Its a good start.

I am not a fan of the way the "DC's" are going to be calculated, I think they need to be based on total AA core abilities and NOT a stat, leaving them tied to "Wisdom" just makes "Monkcher" the default bow build since low and behold.. its primary stat is wisdom. This does NOTHING towards making a pure ranger "more viable".

The proposed manyshot changes are a huge nerf to:
Proc Chances - Have a 7% chance to proc an ability on hit? Well guess what, you now have 300% less chance of it going off
Elemental Imbues - Since these are NOT affected by RP, that nice little 7d8 Damage WOULD have been multiplied by x4 during manyshot... now its only x2.. HUGE NERF
So on and so forth.

It boggles the mind that the devs DONT SEE THIS AS A PROBLEM.:rolleyes:

Its all good tho, I am probably on their ignore list since I constantly make fun of them, but at this point I am just so fed up and frustrated with the state of this game that its a CHORE to be civil.

[maddong]

Repeaters divide Doubleshot by 3 before they check to see if the crossbow got another shot. If that's not working it's a bug. I'll test it.

Edit: It was indeed not working. Should be fixed in the next build.

Sev~

It was pointed out repeatedly in the mechanic threads during their revamp....

[maddong]

I think the manyshot/10k stars changes seem balanced with the removal of the doubleshot penalty. Good job.

I still think "bow people" are going to stay elf monkchers (the ranger 12/monk 6 split sounds good).
Because when manyshot is on timer you are better off switching to a repeater or melee if you don't have 10k stars (if you have 10k stars then shurikens may be better than bows after the 10k stars changes).
You can't have tier 5 DWS 20% doubleshot and slaying arrow... You can use slaying arrow with repeaters or shurikens.

My solution would be to add a tier 5 arcane archer stance that turns off when 10k stars is activated and won't turn on when 10k stars is on cooldown with some additional doubleshot when using bows only.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

as far as the presented changes go, i like them mostly.

i think the dc stat should not be wis, or at least not wis and only wis. doesnt have to be dex (though i personally dont see why not, i think id still be building a pure aa as str to dmg, or probably int now for the extra ranks in spellpower), but at least int. wis is only going to affect dcs. do you really think that pure rangers will find investing sufficient amounts of wisdom to get good dcs to be cost effective? personally if after looking at the numbers i felt that i was going to have to invest more than just tomes and gear into wis to get the dcs to work decently, id just skip them entirely. if ranger spells also got buffed and were useful, i could accept the wis only, otherwise i think its just bad.

i find the proposed manyshot change to be horrifying, whether its a buff (to specific builds in specific situations) or not.
according to sevs math it would be a few hundred points of extra damage. ok, thats fine, but it will be 1000% more boring. seeing loads of arrows fly followed by tons of numbers is the most fun part of manyshot (the fact that you go from 0 dps to more than 0 dps is only the 2nd best part of manyshot). instead you get a fairly redundant ability (nobody likes wasting a huge chunk of their build because of poor design...) that is boring and becomes less useful for the melees and hybrids. this is not a good change. all you have to do to make manyshot work for pures without also buffing monkchers is is add to the 20 core and effect that removes the doubleshot penalty once the duration of the effect expires. simply, effective at buffing aa sustained dps without powercreep, doesnt hurt any other play styles, doesnt cause any redundancy in stats that are necessary, doesnt kill the fun of using manyshot. and you can stop trying to sell the "omg attackspeed = lag!@!?@!1", not buying it. crossbows got a straight up rof buff, swf and vanguard have significant attack speed buffs. so why is it that rangers cant be given their old alacrity bonus back (tempest) and have to have many shot nerfed and cant get a rof buff either? i dont see the logic here, and its pretty crappy that this isnt being dealt with evenly and for no good apparent reason.


personally i dont think rangers need additional run speed (most definitely not aas, that is part of the point of being ranged, right?). in fact i think the runspeed craze needs to be reeled in hard. class run speed buffs should cap out at 10% except for monks, acrobat should only gain it while using a staff, swash only while swashing, etc. and we are going to indulge peoples desire to run faster with every build, just increase the base runspeed of all character for free, instead of rolling a d100 and plugging the result into the t1 of every tree as a runspeed increase.

[Thar]

This is a lot to process and comment on, but there are some pretty serious issues to be addressed. Hopefully I won't have missed anything. Though, sine my comments and questions to the devs seem to almost never be answered...

I very much agree with Varg that the really difficult part is balancing non-monk archers with ranger archers in a way that doesn't completely ruin everyone's build but makes both viable. I just don't think that what has been proposed addresses that. There are a couple major factors in those two archer versions that need to be addressed: Manyshot/10K Stars (and thank you, Sev, for beginning that conversation), and rate of fire.

Problem: Manyshot/10K Stars

The problem is that if one of those groups has access to both, they inherently have more power available than the other group. While I'm aware that there are other things you can factor in, they are both big bursts of damage either way. The proposed changes don't fix this; they are a nerf to both types of archers and throwers on top of it.

The assumptions that archers are starting from maybe 30% doubleshot is a big part of that problem. As many have pointed out, most archers have a lot more than that. On my ranger I can easily get: 25% from AA, 20% from DWS, 10% from doubleshot feat, and 20% from Pinion (and Pinion isn't so uncommon since the raider's reward boxes). That's 75% without even trying. It also doesn't count the huge doubleshot bonuses in Divine Crusader (because not everyone runs in Fury). By making this particular change to Manyshot and 10K Stars, you are basically negating the usefulness of all other sources of doubleshot.

Proposed solution:

As you have already said, it would be awfully tough to boost everything at the same time. We will likely end up with archers that are more DC focused and ones that are more sustained damage focused. It would be nice if we could also retain ones that are burst focused as well. So what about changing the Manyshot feat to work similarly to the 10K Stars feat?

Currently, 10K Stars shoots more projectiles depending on how high your wisdom is. Can we simply change Manyshot to do the same but dependent on the dex stat? While some people can certainly get each stat high, you can really only full-****** invest in one of them. As you take away from one to put into the other, it establishes a balance between them. And, if you don't have the 10K Stars option because you don't have monk levels, you can dump lots into dex if you so choose and make up for that loss.

And drop the doubleshot penalties entirely. They don't fit with the current enhancement/feat/destiny landscape.

Problem: Rate of Fire

Archers lag way, way, waaaay behind everyone else on this. Attack speed for melee is much faster. Attack speed for throwers is faster (thanks to either monk levels or alacrity from mechanic). I also find it hard to believe your assumption of an attack rate of two arrows per second. I am not seeing that. It's very frustrating to plink away slowly at things when anyone else - even other ranged builds like crossbow users or throwers - can zoom out their attacks faster. I don't understand the resistance to an alacrity increase for archers, and though it has been brought up by lots of people in many of these official threads, it still has not been discussed by a dev.

Of course, an archer with monk levels can attack much faster. So the balancing act for that is the tricky part as well.

Proposed solution:

Add alacrity into the tree, but make it work only if the toon is wearing light, medium, or heavy armor. You have other examples of this type of exclusion in the other trees as well, so it can certainly be done. I'd prefer that over not adding it to the racial tree, because that would hurt non-monk-non-ranger builds, which doesn't make sense.

Problem: Arrows causing lag

Sev cited the "expense" of multiple arrows. We have all seen the lag caused by archer mobs for sure. The problem is that the archer lag still exists for every other archer, player or mob, even with a manyshot/10K nerf. So by nerfing (and it is a nerf, the math carries that out), all you are doing is putting archers behind without actually solving the lag issue.

Proposed solution:

I don't have one, because you guys haven't really addressed or discussed it in enough detail to do so. We don't know why the archers cause so much lag. But realistically, if you wanted to fairly address it in game, you would have to do one of the following:

1. Fix the lag, or
2. Do a pass that removes the doubleshot from the entire game.

One of those is something you could do but would make everyone incredibly angry (even more than the fabled TWF nerf of yore), and one of those is, admittedly, not exactly easy. But the fact remains that you can't keep classes relatively balanced by removing a huge amount of dps from just one or two classes and leaving that dps in for everyone else. Manyshot/10K Stars makes up for a comparative lack of DPS on bows and throwing weapons. Nerfing it just makes them nonviable.

Problem: Proposed capstone doesn't fit with tree options

If the options are to offer either a strong DPS archer (dex) or a DC-based archer (wis), then wis should appear in the capstone as well.

Proposed solution:

Instead of +4 dex, add +2 dex and +2 wis.

Other comments and questions:

1. Slaying arrows are tier 5. They are the heroic equivalent of an epic moment. Don't pull back their power. If you make tier 5 abilities meh, there's no point in taking them at all, as you give up other tier 5 abilities in other trees for them. Anything you wait for, build for, and give up other options for should be powerful.

2. Still waiting to find out if the imbue stances will be affected by metamagics. I would like it if the elemental and force stances were affected by maximize and empower, and the DC stances were affected by heighten. I think it makes sense from a thematic standpoint, it is consistent with the rest of the spells and abilities in the game, and it also forces some more choices as well as giving options in the way of feat selection. It also gives a bit of a boost to ranger AA since they have a bit more feat space than others, which I think is perfectly fair given the other options other classes might get (holy sword, better defenses, etc.).

3. Please fix arrow stacking or quiver hotkeying so that archers can actually effectively use their various arrows.

how about +4 dex or +4 wisdom instead of cutting it to 2 for builds that don't care about the other. then the capstone is at least comparible stat wise to others. then the topic of the rest of the capstone can come into play...

[Thar]

Willing to be it doesn't actually get fixed due to some "technical limitation" that prevents them from adjusting repeaters since it will affect non-repeaters too or some other non-sense.

The fact they weren't aware is testament to the devs "head in the sand" style of development. They claim they "play the game" be it boggles my mind how time and time again they make wrong statements about things that are common knowledge to the community.

I dont even know why I am still reading these forums, I deleted DDO from my computer last week... and these changes to AA are too little too late, plus the non-sense nerf to manyshot...

BOWS need:
1. Increased BASE Rate of fire - regardless of class
2. Manyshot needs to be a passive that gives enough doubleshot that its not a "nerf" (been saying this for YEARS)
3. Doubleshot above 100% needs to have a chance of procing a 3rd arrow
4. RP/MP needs to apply to weapon effects/procs, not just base damage. 1d6 "Energy" damage on your weapon wouldn't suck as much with RP/MP buffing it.
5. 10k Stars needs to work with throwing weapons only
6. Manyshot needs to work with Bows Only (Monkchers just need to suck it up and reroll, it won't be the first time a munchkin build was made invalid by mechanics changes and it SHOULDN'T be the last.)
7. The Combat Log needs to be made available for DPS parsing so players have actual RAW DATA to look at and compare. (seriously, its about time this was made available)
8. Lamania needs to be up 24/7 for testing purposes.
9. Dungeon Alert needs to be removed
10. Dungeon Scaling needs to be removed
11. Over Level penalties need to be removed
12. Power level penalties need to be removed (these last 4 just make since at this point in the game lifespan, open up the game so people can PLAY TOGETHER)

The AA Elemental Imbues getting better at higher ranks is a good thing, its something that I was suggesting WAY back months ago. Its a good start.

I am not a fan of the way the "DC's" are going to be calculated, I think they need to be based on total AA core abilities and NOT a stat, leaving them tied to "Wisdom" just makes "Monkcher" the default bow build since low and behold.. its primary stat is wisdom. This does NOTHING towards making a pure ranger "more viable".

The proposed manyshot changes are a huge nerf to:
Proc Chances - Have a 7% chance to proc an ability on hit? Well guess what, you now have 300% less chance of it going off
Elemental Imbues - Since these are NOT affected by RP, that nice little 7d8 Damage WOULD have been multiplied by x4 during manyshot... now its only x2.. HUGE NERF
So on and so forth.

It boggles the mind that the devs DONT SEE THIS AS A PROBLEM.:rolleyes:

Its all good tho, I am probably on their ignore list since I constantly make fun of them, but at this point I am just so fed up and frustrated with the state of this game that its a CHORE to be civil.

BOWS need:
1. Increased BASE Rate of fire - regardless of class

agreed, the lag arguement may be real, but if you can't then crossbows need to be redesigned as they shouldn't shoot faster than bows.

2. Manyshot needs to be a passive that gives enough doubleshot that its not a "nerf" (been saying this for YEARS)

a burst alternative should be available. we've used this for 9 years like this. make it mutually exclusive with 10k ie same cooldown and if you have both the cooldown is cut by 50% or some like number. then monks are good with 10k only, rangers are good with manyshot only and if you have both you don't have a "nerf" as you get the cooldown reduction.

3. Doubleshot above 100% needs to have a chance of procing a 3rd arrow

agreed

4. RP/MP needs to apply to weapon effects/procs, not just base damage. 1d6 "Energy" damage on your weapon wouldn't suck as much with RP/MP buffing it.

not sure this is needed, but bows need some dps help. it's rather boring doing archery. i switched to tempest a year ago because it was that boring and low dps if not in manyshot.

5. 10k Stars needs to work with throwing weapons only

disagree, you spend the feat to use the bow as a ki weapon for this purpose.

6. Manyshot needs to work with Bows Only (Monkchers just need to suck it up and reroll, it won't be the first time a munchkin build was made invalid by mechanics changes and it SHOULDN'T be the last.)

disagree more build options for throwers, etc the better.

7. The Combat Log needs to be made available for DPS parsing so players have actual RAW DATA to look at and compare. (seriously, its about time this was made available)
not sure this is worth the time. you can statistically come up with the range/averages.

8. Lamania needs to be up 24/7 for testing purposes.

probably unreasonable as they work on a new build. perhaps leaving the last lamania up is doable but what would that accomplish as the same is on live usually.

9. Dungeon Alert needs to be removed
never should have been put in the first place as it can't be set correctly for many quests.

10. Dungeon Scaling needs to be removed

nah, this is ok

11. Over Level penalties need to be removed

for bravery bonus? perhaps but then you may have people dragging lowbies through bb quests. i don't really care just saying.

12. Power level penalties need to be removed (these last 4 just make since at this point in the game lifespan, open up the game so people can PLAY TOGETHER)

AT LEAST remove whatever stops us from having a lowbie in group and we can't zone into or out of an epic quest. why can't we chat with friends! sooooo fustrating.

[Ultramaetche1]

Repeaters divide Doubleshot by 3 before they check to see if the crossbow got another shot. If that's not working it's a bug. I'll test it.

Edit: It was indeed not working. Should be fixed in the next build.

Sev~


With this change, you will be nerfing Rogue Mechanics who have chosen to use repeating crossbows as the mechanic enhancement pass was conducted while the doubleshot on repeaters was broken. If you bring this change forward, please redo your DPS tests for mechanic (comparing repeaters to greats) and look at the potential of adding the sneak attack dice from the tree to repeating crossbows in addition to the other weapon types or at the very least putting the sneak attack in for repeaters at tiers One, Three and Five.

[blerkington]

Hi,

If any developers are still reading this thread, it might be a good time to pause and consider the impressive amount of ill will that certain parts of this discussion have generated in such a short time.

Then perhaps think about why that is (hint: it's not just player hysteria and/or ignorance), and then change direction.

* Non WIS based rangers upset about 10k stars builds getting more out of this pass than they do, ie, higher arrow DCs AND more damage from imbues due to higher RoF.

* Ineffective attempts to redress the power difference between archery builds which use 10k stars and those without.

* People concerned about the weakness of the AA capstone relative to those of the other trees.

* Reduction in usefulness of and damage output from manyshot, particularly for melee/ranged hybrids that aren't ranging all the time and for burst damage builds like FOTW archers.

* Ignoring concerns about the negative consequences arising from lower RoF during manyshot, such as imbue damage, on hit weapon effects, on hit ED abilities etc, which will be halved by the proposed model.

* Invoking the spectre of lag by hinting that missiles are expensive in terms of server resources, apparently in an attempt to justify the change to manyshot. Yet no mention made of why throwers and repeating crossbow builds with higher rates of fire are somehow not problematic.

* Attempt to reduce power of slayer arrows, which will affect a number of archery builds, not just FoTW builds. I would really like to see someone make a case that slayer arrow is overpowered as it is when used with any other ED. I certainly can't recall ever seeing one on these forums before.

Do I really need to go on? Because I, and a number of other people here, certainly could.

This ranger pass is in real danger of being one that gives with one hand while taking away with the other.

Please do yourselves and the community a favour by not sticking to your guns with some of these terrible proposals; instead rework them to address the issues which get raised time and time again when archery is discussed.

Thanks.

[Wongar]

I did some simple tests on rate of fire for a heavy repeater and a longbow. These were done on live 7 Oct 15 so are as current as can be.

The raw data is presented so everyone can draw their own conclusions. They make no attempt to represent DPS as that will depend heavily on other factors.

My opinion - this is the biggest reason bows are so far behind repeaters - you would need to get about 50% more damage per shot from the Longbow for it to catch up to the heavy repeater and I don't see how to do this.
I think these numbers also show that the proposed changes to manyshot will put bows even further behind in rate of fire - don't know if the RP boost will make up the difference or not. Notice with the proposed changes (1/2 Manyshot ROF) Bows will not even keep up with Repeaters when Manyshot is active.

Level 28
DC Destiny (Full BAB)
Feats: Blinding Speed, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Longbow, Heavy Repeater

Weapons from Hammer & Chain

Method of test: Conjer a stack of 500 ammo with Flame Arrow Scroll
Run keyboard macro that holds the attack button for given time
For test with Manyshot, macro hits Manyshot then holds attack button for time
Subtract arrows left from 500 to get arrows shot
Shooting into air off ship
3 Runs of each setup were done
Results are xx/xx/xx where xx is one run

2 Minute duration was chosen to match Manyshot cool down
20 Sec duration was chosen to match Manyshot uptime


Double Shot 49%, Heavy Repeater: 2 Minutes
(No Double Shot Penalty)
421 / 406 / 395
Average: 3.39/sec

Double Shot 49%, NO manyshot Longbow: 2 Minutes
(No Double Shot Penalty)
216 / 217 / 221
Average: 1.82/sec

Double Shot 49%, WITH manyshot Longbow: 2 Minutes
(With Double Shot Penalty)
251 / 255 / 256
Average: 2.12/sec



Double Shot 49%, Heavy Repeater: 20 Seconds
71 / 74 / 68
Average: 3.55/sec

Double Shot 49%, NO manyshot Longbow: 20 Seconds
36 / 31 / 34
Average: 1.68/sec

Double Shot 49%, WITH manyshot Longbow: 20 Seconds
104 / 100 / 104
Average: 5.13/sec


Would be great if someone could do similar tests with a 10k/Manyshot build...

[bbqzor]

Sorry, I must be tired because I am missing your logic. I apologize. Let me lay out some math and see where we are.

Yeah you missed it. It doesnt work on a straight 100% uptime end to end like that in practicality. Only in the vacuum of math numbers.


if you do that with a non-10k bow build, you will see it doesn't line up so nice.

Exactly. If you pull a 100% arrow-shooting situation off the table, and consider the alternatives, the value of manyshot takes a giant nose dive.


Without 10K Stars the 50 second Doubleshot debuff that Manyshot gives isn't negated by 30 seconds of 10K Stars so that debuff is actually harsher for a Manyshot build without 10K Stars.

No, its negated by not trying to shoot arrows at all. Look.

If you shoot 2 arrows/second as a base rate (your value), with 50% doubleshot, and say 100 melee power, with no 10k on the table. Assume the same values for melee, as that is relatively easy to do on a Ranger. And this is a ranger tree, as part of a ranger pass, so thats pretty fair.

Current:

Manyshot for 20s (fire 160 arrows), Bow with penalty for 50s (fire 100 arrows), Bow with DS for 50s (150 arrows) = 410 arrows over 2 mins, doing 820 hits worth of damage after melee power.

Manyshot for 20s (fire 160 arrows), Melee with TWF 50s (swing 100 times, generate 80 offhands and 50 doublestrikes), Bow with DS for 50s (150 arrows) = 310 arrows over 2 mins along with 230 melee attacks, doing 540 hits or 1080 hits worth of damage after melee power.

Your proposed changes [RE: Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)]. For these purposes lets assume that gets you to 100% doubleshot for the 20s:

Manyshot for 20s (fire 80 arrows), Bow without penalty for 100s (fire 300 arrows) = 380 arrows over 2 mins, doing 760 hits worth of damage after mp.

Manyshot for 20s (fire 80 arrows), Melee with TWF 50s (swing 100 times, generate 80 offhands and 50 doublestrikes), Bow with DS for 50s (150 arrows) = 230 arrows over 2 mins along with 230 melee attacks, doing 460 hits or 920 hits worth of damage after mp.

Conclusions:

In all cases its less arrows fired per unit time. In all cases its less total hits per unit time. It is most significantly less for a ranger trying to use bow and twf together... they lose the biggest proportion of ranged attacks (even more so if they melee 100% of the time when MS is down). It essentially forces you to go into a bow-only build in order to make the changes pay off even to the tiniest fraction, which is then less good unless you also have 10k. Which is basically the exact same situation there is now.

What it should do is continue to support rangers busting out the bow to use and mix in with their weapons (for rangers who want to build that way, like when using the deepwood tree). There is no reason to nerf them into the ground by taking an ability with shoots arrows at 4:1 and making it shoot at 2:1, with the only trade off being a "bonus" by removing a penalty they never suffered to begin with.

Thats just plain less arrows fired, and perhaps even worse is less arrows when they might actually NEED the damage in favor of a better passive attack. I mean this completely ignores things like using MS on a red named, where afterwards you pause and/or shrine and/or run to the next quest. In those cases its just flat out less period... there is no meaningful period of use afterwards in which it comes "back up on average".

Look I get wanting to change it, or lower the arrow count. But how about something like, for 20s you get +400 Ranged Power. Thats like 4 arrows at once. And just let DS be whatever it is. Its still a relative loss (that 400 isnt then effected by the rest of your ranged power) but its a lot less of a hit than halving the arrows fired. AND it doesnt get completely washed out by having your DS value run over 100%.

A change is fine. But use one that makes sense, not one that just lowers burst dps and minimizes build options to try and save some lag. Its a nerf for anyone not using a bow full time or not using 10k, and thats a LOT of the people with the feat out there. Throwing them under the bus just to put AA and Monkcher on closer footing is bad design. Thanks.

[Xionanx]

I did some simple tests on rate of fire for a heavy repeater and a longbow. These were done on live 7 Oct 15 so are as current as can be.

The raw data is presented so everyone can draw their own conclusions. They make no attempt to represent DPS as that will depend heavily on other factors.

My opinion - this is the biggest reason bows are so far behind repeaters - you would need to get about 50% more damage per shot from the Longbow for it to catch up to the heavy repeater and I don't see how to do this.
I think these numbers also show that the proposed changes to manyshot will put bows even further behind in rate of fire - don't know if the RP boost will make up the difference or not. Notice with the proposed changes (1/2 Manyshot ROF) Bows will not even keep up with Repeaters when Manyshot is active.

Level 28
DC Destiny (Full BAB)
Feats: Blinding Speed, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Longbow, Heavy Repeater

Weapons from Hammer & Chain

Method of test: Conjer a stack of 500 ammo with Flame Arrow Scroll
Run keyboard macro that holds the attack button for given time
For test with Manyshot, macro hits Manyshot then holds attack button for time
Subtract arrows left from 500 to get arrows shot
Shooting into air off ship
3 Runs of each setup were done
Results are xx/xx/xx where xx is one run

2 Minute duration was chosen to match Manyshot cool down
20 Sec duration was chosen to match Manyshot uptime


Double Shot 49%, Heavy Repeater: 2 Minutes
(No Double Shot Penalty)
421 / 406 / 395
Average: 3.39/sec

Double Shot 49%, NO manyshot Longbow: 2 Minutes
(No Double Shot Penalty)
216 / 217 / 221
Average: 1.82/sec

Double Shot 49%, WITH manyshot Longbow: 2 Minutes
(With Double Shot Penalty)
251 / 255 / 256
Average: 2.12/sec



Double Shot 49%, Heavy Repeater: 20 Seconds
71 / 74 / 68
Average: 3.55/sec

Double Shot 49%, NO manyshot Longbow: 20 Seconds
36 / 31 / 34
Average: 1.68/sec

Double Shot 49%, WITH manyshot Longbow: 20 Seconds
104 / 100 / 104
Average: 5.13/sec


Would be great if someone could do similar tests with a 10k/Manyshot build...

Thank you!

The fact that you have a 49% Doubleshot combined with the proposed Manyshot Nerf, you will only get the benefit of +51% doubleshot during manyshot, resulting in such a nerf. By your tests you are getting currently

APM = Arrows Per Minute

109 APM at 49% Doubleshot, which means you average 73 APM with NO DOUBLESHOT, or roughly 1.21 Arrows/Sec. I will use that as my "BASE ROF" that I asked the devs for but they didn't provide.

Current System 1.21 Arrows/Sec, over the course of 2 Minutes:
96.8 = 1.21 x 4 x 20 Seconds of Manyshot for Four Additional Arrows Shot, MS CD Starts
36.3 = 1.21 x 30 Seconds of Cooldown for MS/10K Stars and -100% Doubleshot
95.4 = 1.21 x 2.63 x 30 Seconds of 10k Stars Assuming a Wisdom of 58 ( 2.63 = ((100/(1 - 1.00 - 0.52 - 0.09))/100) + 1 ... trust me, this is the exact arrow percent :p)
48.4 = 1.21 x 40 Seconds of Cooldown for MS/10k Stars and -100% Doubleshot, MS CD is UP, repeat the process.
--------------------------------------
276.9 Total Arrows Fired over 2 Minutes (seems about right, still way behind XBOWs:rolleyes:)

For reference here are the proposed changes.
Manyshot, for the next 20 seconds you add your BAB * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power, using this ability places 10k Stars on a 30 Second Cooldown. Cooldown 2 Minutes.
10k Stars, for the next 30 seconds you add your WISDOM :rolleyes: to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power, using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second Cooldown. Cooldown 1 Minute.
There is no longer a Doubleshot Penalty on either of these.

Proposed Manyshot/10K Stars Changes, over the course of 2 Minutes.
48.4 = 1.21 x 2 x 20 Seconds, manyshot with a 25+ BaB caps out at 100% doubleshot
36.3 = 1.21 x 30 Seconds, Cooldown for 10k Stars
57.3 = 1.21 x 1.58 x 30 Seconds, assuming the exact same 58 Wisdom used in the previous calculation you get 58% more Doublshot
48.4 = 1.21 x 40 Seconds of cooldown before you can use MS again.
----------------------------------------
190.4 Total Arrows Fired over 2 Minutes
20 Seconds of +100 RP
30 Seconds of +58 RP

Now, lets assume you have the the 49% Doublshot that Wongar Has, I will inject it into the "Cooldown" areas and add it to the wisdom granted Doubleshot.

48.4 = 1.21 x 2 x 20 Seconds, manyshot with a 25+ BaB caps out at 100% doubleshot
54.0 = 1.21 x 1.49 x 30 Seconds, Cooldown for 10k Stars
72.6 = 1.21 x 2 x 30 Seconds, assuming the exact same 58 Wisdom used in the previous calculation you get 58% more Doublshot 58+49 Caps you at 100%
72.1 = 1.21 x 1.49 x 40 Seconds of cooldown before you can use MS again.
----------------------------------------
247.1 Total Arrows Fired over 2 Minutes
20 Seconds of +100 RP
30 Seconds of +58 RP

Now one could argue that the extra RP granted more then makes up for the loss of 30 Arrows over 2 minutes, but I say, why even make Manyshot an activated ability at this point, just make it a passive +RP +Doubleshot and call it done. Why? because if you have "low" doubleshot, this is a MAJOR nerf to you, if you have "High" doubleshot.. this is also a nerf to you, as you get less benefit from Manyshot/10k stars.

If you make it just a passive +50% Doubleshot:
217 = 1.21 x 1.5 x 120 Seconds for two minutes of "Passive" doubleshot.

But the benefit of making it passive is that players could BUILD to have 100% double shot constantly in effect

Granted this would be an entirely pointless debate if BOWS ATTACKED AS FAST AS XBOWS LIKE THEY SHOULD HAVE SINCE DAY 1. Because as it is now, you are still better off TR'ing your monkcher into Rogue Mechanic.:rolleyes: INT to HIT/DAM, INT for Rogue Skills/Skillpoints, Know the Angles, Faster Attack Speed, Blitz.. WHY ARE YOU STILL PLAYING A RANGER?

EDIT: Apparently my "Rotation" is wrong in that it should be 10k Stars, Manyshot, 10kStars again. So while the arrows/sec are accurate, the total arrows/min are not accurate when I account for 10k Stars and Manyshot rotations.

[PsychoBlonde]

I really, really, REALLY like the +enchantment DC on certain abilities because this brings back some serious interest to elf/half elf granting of this tree to mix with actual caster builds. (esp. since this tree is the ONLY way to get a capstone on a multi-classed character). I'm super-duper-mega tempted to try this out with a bard build or something equally peculiar. Lotta possible synergies on casters there and the ability to generate temp sp becomes valuable. This alone makes this tree substantially different from other ranged trees. Really like the scaling of things with spellpower.

I would seriously suggest just making this a sorcerer-available tree to help flesh out that class a bit more. If you could make it less bow-specific, arti also. I really don't see any reason why it shouldn't work with crossbows as well as bows. Maybe even throwers.

Is Inferno Shot gonna scale with spellpower? Needs to. Badly. Maybe consider making this a multiselector that goes with the other damaging arrow types (force/fire/acid/electric/cold) and have it get extra dice from upgrading your basic arrows? Some cool synergy there if so.

Dispelling Shot suggestions:

1. Make the dispel an AOE from point of origin--should dispel all hostile effects in that area, such as walls of fire, etc.
2. Make it work on spell wards
3. 3rd rank temporarily prevents spellcasting on the main target

Shattermantle Shot:

1. Base effect -10/20/30 SR and 20/40/60 MRR on main target (so it makes the main target vulnerable to elemental damage, which would have some ossum synergies with the rest of the tree and also elemental spellcasting in general.
2. AOE around main target that drops SR by 5/10/15 on all other targets.
3. Consider also -saves for AOE targets.

I think something like that could be very interesting, because it'd open up CASTER builds using bows with this tree (SORCERER!!! ARTI!!! BARD!!!!) that instead of relying on manyshot would use the elemental damage vulnerability stuff and DC boosts/save penalties and SP generation. It'd actually be an ARCANE archer.

What about adding spell crit instead of the +1 crit multiplier? Could the elemental damage abilities be made to crit like spells do?

I dunno, maybe that's getting a bit far-fetched.

[Xionanx]

While I am thinking about:

The AA Tree NEEDS a "Returning" Imbue - Why not get rid of "Conjure Arrows" and replace it with "Imbue Returning" so that any arrows you fire are 100% returning. Maybe then I could actually care about "Specialty" arrows, and suddenly AA has a GREAT ability in its tree. Make it a Tier 5 Ability. I would happily replace my secondary imbues for the ability to have 100% returning arrows. It would certainly make playing an AA a "Strategic" choice at that point, making its lack of attack speed not as terrible. (it'll still be terrible)

TELEPORT SHOT - Seriously, get on this one. A "Shot" that teleports the archer to the point of impact of the arrow... OH THE FUN I COULD HAVE WITH THIS!!!

[mikarddo]

Current System 1.21 Arrows/Sec, over the course of 2 Minutes:
96.8 = 1.21 x 4 x 20 Seconds of Manyshot for Four Additional Arrows Shot, MS CD Starts
36.3 = 1.21 x 30 Seconds of Cooldown for MS/10K Stars and -100% Doubleshot
95.4 = 1.21 x 2.63 x 30 Seconds of 10k Stars Assuming a Wisdom of 58 ( 2.63 = ((100/(1 - 1.00 - 0.52 - 0.09))/100) + 1 ... trust me, this is the exact arrow percent :p)
48.4 = 1.21 x 40 Seconds of Cooldown for MS/10k Stars and -100% Doubleshot, MS CD is UP, repeat the process.


Your math is off quite significantly. It goes like this (as also noted by the dev post with the numbers)
- 30 sec of 10k
- 20 sec of MS
- 10 sec of nothing / DS
- 30 sec of 10k
- 30 sec of nothing / DS
You can use MS right after 10k runs out - the 30sec cool down starts when you active 10k not when 10k runs out.

On another note I can confirm the 1.2 RoF though I was getting just below that number when I parsed (google finds a tool that lets you get the combat log text btw).

[Aletys]

What I've seen so far, leads me to believe that you do not consider the AA tree a "real" class tree, but rather a splash tree for other classes. The current proposals are going to make this tree very attractive as a splash tree to the true Wisdom based classes (ie: Druids, Clerics, Monks). You are also apparently wanting to make it an attractive splash tree for caster classes. Though the biggest beneficiaries will probably be Monks.

What you are not doing is making it a viable stand-alone tree for players that want to be primary bow users: Toons that are actually using a bow all the time, rather than switching to a bow for a manyshot, then going back to melee (or now casting) till the cooldown is over. The tree should be able to stand on it's own if a player wants to go pure. Right now I don't think it does. Some of my main concerns are below:


Wisdom for arrow imbue DC's? AA's are a Dex based class, it's not going to be viable. Require enchantment focus to make it work? This is a ranger class, not a caster class. Where exactly are the extra feat slots coming from? You might as well just eliminate Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting "stances" and be done with it. At least remove the dependency for slaying arrows so we don't have to waste valuable APs on them to get to Slaying arrows.
Spellpower for the arrow imbues? Why, oh why? My AA is a bow user, not a spell caster. Where the heck is the spellpower supposed to come from? The tie in should be to ranged power, not spellpower.
Completely destroy manyshot when what you need to do is fix the tie in to 10K stars? Fix the problem, don't nerf the wrong class because you don't want to fix a mistake. Hand out a free feat exhange to all monks and be done with it. And, remove the doubleshot penalty while you're at it. I can remember when Manyshot was not nerfed, and a ranger could take the doubleshot capstone without getting gimped by it. And claiming that it's tied to lag is ludicrous ... I don't ever remember seeing any lag when I (or any other ranger) set off a manyshot, & I've seen way too much lag in this game.
What about the rate of fire & damage done with longbows? Right now they're so far behind all other bow users, it's laughable. I don't see anything in here to fix that.
AA's have very poor ranged power. Perhaps do something about that in the cores? Add some decent ranged power to the capstone?
You have said run speed improvements aren't needed. If they're not needed, why have you given them to at least 3 other classes recently? At least one of those classes (rouges) have a ranged tree.
The proposed capstone is a complete joke. Why would anyone bother taking it? Look at the capstones for other recent classes, and explain to us how this even remotely compares to them.


You say we have to make "difficult choices", yet I don't see any difficult choices for bards, or paladins, or mechanic roques or barbarians or warlocks. They are currently well designed, fun to play classes. Yes, you have to make choices when you choose your enhancements, but the new trees are viable stand-alone trees, based on the strengths of each class.

I find too much of what is being proposed completely useless for a pure bow-using ranger.

[Xionanx]

Your math is off quite significantly. It goes like this (as also noted by the dev post with the numbers)
- 30 sec of 10k
- 20 sec of MS
- 10 sec of nothing / DS
- 30 sec of 10k
- 30 sec of nothing / DS
You can use MS right after 10k runs out - the 30sec cool down starts when you active 10k not when 10k runs out.

On another note I can confirm the 1.2 RoF though I was getting just below that number when I parsed (google finds a tool that lets you get the combat log text btw).

Admittedly I haven't played a "Bow" user in probably 2yrs, I gave up on the attack speed and MS/10k stars BS years ago, so I am a bit out of the know on the rotation :p. Bows have needed a "fix" for a LONG time, and Turbine just isn't willing to do what needs to be done.

The last few ranged characters I had, were a thrower and a XBOW user, I just cant bring myself to play a gimp with a bow...

[mikarddo]

Admittedly I haven't played a "Bow" user in probably 2yrs, I gave up on the attack speed and MS/10k stars BS years ago, so I am a bit out of the know on the rotation :p. Bows have needed a "fix" for a LONG time, and Turbine just isn't willing to do what needs to be done.

The last few ranged characters I had, were a thrower and a XBOW user, I just cant bring myself to play a gimp with a bow...

Please consider editing or removing your prior post - no need to add confusion into the mix thats already boiling by using incorrect numbers.

[Seikojin]

To the peeps here, what if:
Manyshot and 10k provided a passive buff to doubleshot and had a shared timer clicky attack that fired 4 shots every 12 seconds? This way you have doubleshot running at all times and you could get up to 8 shots with the clicky every 12 seconds?

To everyone on the current hateraide train: I don't see ranged power from the proposed changes being utilized in the maths. However I really think that just having a capped at 100% high doubleshot is fine if your attacks deal double damage (essentially mimicking the 4 shots per click). I know the propsed changes do not do this, however they do run on those lines. Leaving room for the Ranged power to grow and get to that level.

However, like I suggested above, if it has a flat increase to doubleshot and has a clicky attack to fire 4 shots, people will have that feel of proc power, but not a 20 second barrage of lag inducing shots.

[Hipparan]

I actually like the idea of having wisdom-based DCs for Arcane Archer because that's how ranger spells work, but I would like to make a proposal: adding an ability for adding wisdom to damage for bows. This would also mean that the level 20 core ability should give +2 dexterity and +2 wisdom, but there is a good reason for this. For one, Zen Archery allows for using wisdom for the attack bonus for bows, and wisdom for damage would help make this a little more usable. Also, the path of the Silver Flame for Paladins, Clerics, and Favored Souls is pretty much useless as the abilities aren't very good and I know that people complain about favored weapons for Warpriests. By adding wisdom to damage for bows in the Arcane Archer tree, elf and half-elf Clerics and Favored souls/Cleric or Favored soul and Ranger multiclassed characters will have a much more useful path with the Silver Flame, and help make that particular crowd happier (less work for a Favored Soul pass as well).

In short, wisdom to damage would help make the wisdom-based DCs much more attractive for rangers, and possibly even introduce wisdom build rangers. In addition, this would give a big boost to Clerics and Favored Souls who are followers of the Silver Flame, especially elves and half-elves.

[Aletys]

so max dc would be something like 20 + wisdom mod (16+6 tome + 2 ship + 12 item+3 exc +1 insight+2 litnany= 42 =+16 mod) + enchant 6 (4 arrows + 2aug) = 42 dc. please advise how many in the new content pacts would save vs this on EE? granted 16 may be a little weak for starting dc but it's reasonable for the class to be spread out on stats and it's only -1 dc to start from max on most races. Similarly with dex to damage available +7 to stats on levelup may go to wisdom but more practically would be dex. even so that's only +3.5 dc. most applicable dc's are 50s to 60s on EE. so a rangers cc would be useless. a stacking - 1 or 2 save on hit would be a good addition for those arrows.
This is equivalent to a level 10 Spell. Which is to say it's already slightly better DC than casters generally get. If it is not good enough for casters, then we'll look at addressing DCs/saves for everyone. There is no new problem here that doesn't exist already for casters. We certainly don't want to put AA DCs even higher than casters. Surely they shouldn't be +10 or +20 points better than a similar Wisdom-based caster?

As mentioned in the first post, Paralyze, Smiting, and Banishing are all gaining new on-save effects (or just on-hit, which is mostly the same for Smiting and Banishing -- if they didn't save vs. the vorpal they are dead!)

Two concerns:


I think the assumption of a 16 base wisdom is way too high for a Dex based character (12 or 14 is more reasonable). Also, the assumption that they will have a +6 tome is not a good one, as most players don't have any on their toons, and are lucky to have any +4's or +5's on them. And assuming that every AA is going to have an Epic Litany is also a bad assumption. Right now, only third life toons are going to be able to spec for that much wisdom without seriously gimping their build in other areas. That means at 3-5 less DCs, or 37-39 dc. That means a large portion of the player base will not be able to effectively use these stances.

You are essentially saying that you are willing to introduce a tree with enhancements that you know will not be viable from the get-go because you don't want to make the DC's higher than casters currently have. While I agree that caster DC's need serious work, based on that reasoning, the new trees for bards, paladins, barbarians, mechanics and warlocks should never have been introduced in their current forms because they are much, much stronger than the other melee/ranged/caster classes. Do what needs to be done to make the AA DC's viable now, then go back & fix the caster DC's (which do indeed need to be fixed).

[dontmater]

please don't break arcane archer..... i have to click 7 clickies in the right order and timing to get my macho shot in. and manyshot is number 5

[blerkington]

To everyone on the current hateraide train: I don't see ranged power from the proposed changes being utilized in the maths. However I really think that just having a capped at 100% high doubleshot is fine if your attacks deal double damage (essentially mimicking the 4 shots per click). I know the propsed changes do not do this, however they do run on those lines. Leaving room for the Ranged power to grow and get to that level.

However, like I suggested above, if it has a flat increase to doubleshot and has a clicky attack to fire 4 shots, people will have that feel of proc power, but not a 20 second barrage of lag inducing shots.

Hi,

'Hateraide train' is an unfortunate way to describe the people who have issue with these proposals. To my mind being on that train, however it's described, is better than blindly drinking the Kool-Aid being presented to us. But it's probably best that we keep perjorative language down on both sides, hey?

The problem with boosting ranged power as a substitute for the larger numbers of missiles produced by the current version of manyshot is this. Amped up ranged power is not a substitute for everything a larger number of missiles can do. Chance of deception effects taking place leading to more sneak attack damage, on hit weapon procs (including very powerful ones like mortal fear), damage from arrow imbues, certain effects from ED powers, all of this goes down when fewer missiles are fired.

So there's a lot more to this than adding a token amount of doubleshot (none, in fact, for certain builds) and some ranged power will fix. Never mind the fact that diluting manyshot like this is a big problem for builds which are built for burst damage, like Fury archers, as well as melee/ranged hybrids who arent using their bows much apart from manyshot.

I'd also like to point out that the developer who mentioned larger numbers of missiles being resource intensive for their servers did not actually go so far as to claim it caused lag, whereas you seem to be stating that it is a definite cause. I do not know how you can be so sure of that. I use manyshot frequently on my ranger, solo and in groups, and rarely experience any lag at those moments. Sometimes it takes a while for all the damage numbers to scroll up, but I can still operate my character normally when this happens.

When lag does occur, it may well be for other reasons; I, much like you, have no way to prove what is causing lag on those occasions when it does occur. So let's not jump to conclusions and start arguing that manyshot causes lag when no-one has presented any evidence that it does.

Thanks.

[Failedlegend]

This is ARCANE archer having g it be wisdom based makes no sense...if your worried about monks than utilize zen archer for that. Honestly ARCANE archer has never fit in ranger (a PRIMAL class) DWS already has ranged covered AA should have been unique to elves or a wizard pre (or a Arcane/Martial multi-class prestige of some sort)

Side note: Elven AA should likely be Dex based since elves and their racial bow stuff is...possible have elven grace change it from Int to Dex, also dont forgrt that due to elves any class can be an AA so dont forget about them.