View Full Version : Good / bad ways of increasing difficulty (for reaper or the new EE revamp)
BigErkyKid
10-05-2015, 08:15 AM
Hi,
Having come back to the game post adjustments to the current end game quests (notes (https://www.ddo.com/en/update-28-release-notes)) I have to say that I am positively surprised that the devs have decided to give us some extra challenge. I have "enjoyed" the extra challenge in necro IV and some of the mobs in the new quests from u28.
However, as much as I have enjoyed some epic fights (thanks to the PUG players that stayed with me through EE subversion and the infamous champion slaad!), I find that the changes are excessively biased against certain kind of builds. In general, what has increased massively is melee damage and it makes it hard to play the game with squishier classes. Yes, ranged damage is also higher (thanks!), but this just compounds on melee while ranged toons can still avoid most of it.
A particular example of this is the 600-900 damage double striking flesh golems reported by some players in this (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466143-Recent-change-to-melee-damage-in-Necro-IV-quests?p=5698919#post5698919) thread. It just makes it impossible for some melee builds to stay in the fray.
Of course the question is then how to increase difficulty. Well, it is a tough one, since there is a huge gap between PRR heavy classes and those that have naturally a lot less of it. Here is a list of what I think could be more balanced and perhaps even more interesting. Please do bring your own suggestions:
- Add more caster mobs
Wherever it makes minimal sense lore wise, add caster mobs that can:
a) dispel player buffs: from simple dispels to mordenkainen.
b) buff their minions: DW is perhaps too prevalent and one sided, but some true sight, haste and what not.
c) debuff players: mind fog, slow effects
d) cast CC: irresistible dances, otto balls, hold, web.
- Give more abilities to regular mobs
Tactical abilities that already exist for some mobs, every single mob should have a signature tactical move. Thinking of stun, trip, hamstring and such.
- What to do with paladins?
The problem with some of the suggestions we may have is that paladins are naturally stronger given their saves and PRR, while remaining really strong in DPS. So how can one make it more challenging interesting ways without pushing people in their direction?
- Make fights last longer
For me this is a key one.
I would rather increase the HPs than the damage output. The reason is that right now most encounters are very short and don't allow much room for tactical abilities or strategies. It is a bit like this: either the group can overpower the mobs and kill them quickly or it is a dead fest. A mob should not two shot a player (at least a regular one). If encounters lasted longer, this would drain more resources and favor balanced groups.
To see why, consider the example of the paladin. It is without doubt a power house. However, if gets bogged in a long encounter, odds are it may run out of heals. However, this is less of an issue for say a cleric. The point is that right now there are classes that just overpower content, say like a barbarian, but that if encounters lasted longer or where a tad more difficult would no longer have the necessary BYOE (bring your own everything). This for me should be the sought breaking point in EEs / reaper.
Thoughts?
SirValentine
10-05-2015, 10:23 AM
- Add more caster mobs
Wherever it makes minimal sense lore wise, add caster mobs that can:
a) dispel player buffs: from simple dispels to mordenkainen.
If player caster levels were about equal to mob caster levels, dispels, in both directions would be cool.
When player caster levels are in the 20s, and mob caster levels in 40s or 50s or 70s or whatever, dispel sucks. We can NEVER dispel them, and they ALWAYS dispel us.
BigErkyKid
10-05-2015, 11:26 AM
If player caster levels were about equal to mob caster levels, dispels, in both directions would be cool.
When player caster levels are in the 20s, and mob caster levels in 40s or 50s or 70s or whatever, dispel sucks. We can NEVER dispel them, and they ALWAYS dispel us.
Well, I think it is fair to say that a spell pass is long due. I am working under the assumption that there would be some resemblance of balance.
Basura_Grande
10-05-2015, 12:12 PM
Two things i absolutely do not want to see:
- Mobs saves so high DC casters are useless, as well as stunners or anyone else using DC abilities. Epic Gianthold until Shadowfell were dark times.
- One-shotting mecahnics. These are just unfun and infuriating.
Basura_Grande
10-05-2015, 12:17 PM
Thoughts?
Nerf Mortal Fear. give it a damage cap of 5-10k.
redoubt
10-05-2015, 04:47 PM
1. prr/mrr for mobs (someone else's idea in another thread.)
2. As you said, not more damage from them, if mobs can do 200-300 per hit on a paladin tank, then no one else can live and it would drive all builds one way.
3. As discussed here, balance out the dispel line of spells.
4. Remove auto regen of stat and levels (while getting rid of the ridiculous -30 con in a single hit attacks.)
5. Let things be permanent (i.e. blind, curse etc.) Remove them or be stuck with them.
6. Mob fortification
7. Mobs with shields that work! Hitting them form the shield side does nothing, you have to flank them to reach a vulnerable spot or hit them with an AOE that gets them to temporarily drop their shield.
8. More HP is not the answer, but giving the mobs various methods of mitigation instead (as listed) would prolong fights and create more diverse ways to attack.
9. Don't do silly ones like make a troll champ immune to fire. You can give it an ablative fire protection, but immune breaks lore. etc.
10. With the dispel line balanced and no auto regen, then debuffs become a useful tool again and promote teamwork.
These are just a few ideas.
BigErkyKid
10-05-2015, 05:57 PM
1. prr/mrr for mobs (someone else's idea in another thread.)
8. More HP is not the answer, but giving the mobs various methods of mitigation instead (as listed) would prolong fights and create more diverse ways to attack..
Not to be too picky, but in fact it is the same. Damage reduction, unless it is very different in a single mob between PRR and MRR, basically means more HPs. A cruel way to encourage team play could be to give some mobs lots of PRR but no MRR and vice versa.
2. As you said, not more damage from them, if mobs can do 200-300 per hit on a paladin tank, then no one else can live and it would drive all builds one way..
But this is exactly what they are doing :S
Basura_Grande
10-05-2015, 06:34 PM
1. prr/mrr for mobs (someone else's idea in another thread.)
Why? Seriously, why? Why bother with this when you can just adjust the HP of the monsters?
Basura_Grande
10-05-2015, 06:40 PM
10. With the dispel line balanced and no auto regen, then debuffs become a useful tool again and promote teamwork.
These are just a few ideas.
Another bad idea, all constant rebuffing does is annoy players, it'll do nothing to "Promote Teamwork," Seriously, what makes you think this?
redoubt
10-05-2015, 07:03 PM
Another bad idea, all constant rebuffing does is annoy players, it'll do nothing to "Promote Teamwork," Seriously, what makes you think this?
So we can debuff them? They can already debuff us....
Please, anything but more Healer mobs.
Seriously, at that point it just becomes a pure "Can you outdps their limitless healing" check.
1: Nerf Warlocks, Chained aoe CC.
2: Add actual SP for mobs (Not overinflated, be reasonable)
3: Spell resistance (not magic damage resistance) needs to be more effective and commonplace. Seriously, enemies should fight back, not just sit around in whatever aoe stun the wizard just threw over his shoulder.
4: Fort Bypass nerfed, **** like Assassin should NOT be able to simply critinstagib golems, it's absurd.
5: That's basically it. If you're a multi-TR or completionist, the game should be easy, if not, it should be a challenge, if you're a multi-TR and want a challenge, there's other character slots right there.
redoubt
10-05-2015, 07:08 PM
Why? Seriously, why? Why bother with this when you can just adjust the HP of the monsters?
Because you can adjust prr on one mob and make spell damage more effective. You can adjust mrr on another to make melee more effective.
Increase fort and it favores builds that have fort bypass.
Increasing HP is only ONE way to make a monster. How about some variety?
slarden
10-05-2015, 07:19 PM
Hi,
- What to do with paladins?
The problem with some of the suggestions we may have is that paladins are naturally stronger given their saves and PRR, while remaining really strong in DPS. So how can one make it more challenging interesting ways without pushing people in their direction?
Thoughts?
Not to single out paladins - and I am not suggesting any nerfs- but this is a huge problem that will only get worse with level cap 30.
Champions were put in specifically because high prr high save builds weren't challenged post-armor up. The only problem is these mobs one hit other builds but don't challenge paladins.
They need to replace things like complete fort byass with mortal fear in champion mobs - something that is prr neutral.
PRR is the #1 ability in end game by a huge huge margin. The devs should find this probematic but do not. Instead to increase challenge they do so in one way - increased mob damage. Which players are least impacted by this challenge boost? High PRR characters with shadow guardian on armor of course. They might find a little more challenge, but other builds can't withstand the damage period.
So when are the devs going to understand adding more damage is not an effective way to add challenge as it simply favors the builds that are already heavily favored in the current game? The only way I can think of to fix it is to dramatically lower the benefit of prr once you get past 100 or so - or to add random abilities to champions and other enemies that negate prr completely - rather than the ridiculous implementation in TOEE that negates a fixed amount of prr rather than a percentage of PRR and again favors high PRR builds.
For the most part - many of my characters are now high PRR characters. Some just can't get there like my assassin.
redoubt
10-05-2015, 07:47 PM
Not to single out paladins - and I am not suggesting any nerfs- but this is a huge problem that will only get worse with level cap 30.
Champions were put in specifically because high prr high save builds weren't challenged post-armor up. The only problem is these mobs one hit other builds but don't challenge paladins.
They need to replace things like complete fort byass with mortal fear in champion mobs - something that is prr neutral.
PRR is the #1 ability in end game by a huge huge margin. The devs should find this probematic but do not. Instead to increase challenge they do so in one way - increased mob damage. Which players are least impacted by this challenge boost? High PRR characters with shadow guardian on armor of course. They might find a little more challenge, but other builds can't withstand the damage period.
So when are the devs going to understand adding more damage is not an effective way to add challenge as it simply favors the builds that are already heavily favored in the current game? The only way I can think of to fix it is to dramatically lower the benefit of prr once you get past 100 or so - or to add random abilities to champions and other enemies that negate prr completely - rather than the ridiculous implementation in TOEE that negates a fixed amount of prr rather than a percentage of PRR and again favors high PRR builds.
For the most part - many of my characters are now high PRR characters. Some just can't get there like my assassin.
Any blanket change will end up favoring something. I understand that blanket changes are easier and cheaper, but so is the result... cheaper.
As you said, making mobs damage output higher results in the same high mitigation builds succeeding (or kiting builds.) So don't boost everythings output. Boost a few that way, but boost others in different ways. Make some harder to hurt with physical damage, make some harder to hurt with magical damage, make some harder to hurt with saves, make some that favor high crit profiles and make some that favor fast attacks etc...
The trouble as I see it is that we keep homogenizing everything.
Ellihor
10-05-2015, 09:06 PM
See how the game worked beefore MotU and copy that. Why did they changed the team that was winning?
See how much hp and dps players had before MotU and compare to how much hp and dps monster had before MotU. Copy that to nowadays values but on same proportion.
See the saves and DC players had and compare to the saves and DC monster had. Copy that to nowadays values but on same proportion.
You also need to have the same balance between classes, because you can't have a balanced dungeon for players if the players are not balanced themselves.
See the proportion of DPSm survivability and usefullness the classes had comparing to each other, and copy that to to these days values, but on pre-MotU proportions.
Ellihor
10-05-2015, 09:20 PM
- Add more caster mobs
Wherever it makes minimal sense lore wise, add caster mobs that can:
a) dispel player buffs: from simple dispels to mordenkainen.
b) buff their minions: DW is perhaps too prevalent and one sided, but some true sight, haste and what not.
c) debuff players: mind fog, slow effects
d) cast CC: irresistible dances, otto balls, hold, web.
- Give more abilities to regular mobs
Tactical abilities that already exist for some mobs, every single mob should have a signature tactical move. Thinking of stun, trip, hamstring and such.
a) NO. A thousand times. Everyone hates dispell and putting dispell in quests does not encourage tatics. Buffs are tatics. Invisibility is tatics. Fire shield is tatics. That kind of thing should be encouraged and not discouraged.
b) This woul only hurt more low prr/hp characters, specially arcanes.
c) No fogs. Fog is a kind of spell that attacks the player and not the character. Also causes lag. And about slow is pointless, just drink a pot to remove it.
d) Why? How would this help the game become harder? This would just force people to play high saves characters and ranged charactes.
Personally I HATE the idea of mob CCing players. I think it's terrible desing. Instead of rewarding good playskills, it rewards high stats (hp, saves, prr...). Cripling is the worst of them, it's the effect that mostly kills good playskill and makes you dependent on high stats.
Darkmits
10-06-2015, 03:28 AM
The way the game is designed now, they cannot make just a couple of changes and bring it back on track. There are some imbalances that need to be tackled from the root, ie from level 1.
- Attack and AC have been scaling like mad to the point where d20 is irrelevant.
- PRR has taken the place of DR, which means that enemy damage needs to be exponentially increased to create more challenging content as PRR increases. If instead of PRR we had another DR bonus (for example, gain Armor bonus to DR/- equal to min level of Heavy Armor, with Medium Armor at 2/3rd and Light Armor 1/3rd of that, and Shield bonus equal to min level of Tower Shield, 2/3rd that for Medium, 1/3rd Light), then a Heavy Armor + Tower Shield character would have extra DR 56/- which means that mob damage would not only be a lot easier to balance for new/harder/easier content, but they could also avoid the situation of the same hit dealing 500 to a non-tank and less than 100 to a tank. Not to mention that it would be in line with magic resistances.
- MRR isn't in the same boat as PRR because Magic Resistances are actually quite high atm (if I can have 56 at lvl17, I guess some lvl28s are close to 100), making its effect smaller, even though still noticeable when coming from a spell that would hit for 500. Similarily to PRR, allowing higher resistances would make it easier to balance (by also allowing Resist Elements to scale to 40, 50, 60 instead of having Inherent bonuses etc). Then reworking Protection to work AFTER Resist (and possibly scale to 200) would make that spell viable too.
- Then there's the greater issue with enemy hp, enemy numbers, instakill abilities and player desired movement speed throughout a quest. There is a cyclical situation here. Enemies are easy -> Buff their hp -> Enemies now take a lot of time to kill -> introduce instakill mechanics -> enemy groups are now easier to tackle -> buff enemy numbers so that they outnumber you -> it becomes a chore to kill them all -> introduce even more instakill mechanics on a lower cooldown and AoE instakill mechanics -> enemies are now again easier -> enemies gain immunity to death effects -> enemies now are a chore -> introduce a lot of power creep to player damage -> enemies now are easy again ->... This needs to be redesigned: Reduce instakill availability to players. No instakill effects of any kind on any equipment. Instakill abilities (either from spells or from enhancements or EDs) on a long cooldown (like 120sec). Reduce enemy numbers but keep their hp high so that enemies do not die in 2-3 autoattacks and they then manage to get 4 or 5 hits (even if they don't hit or if they hit like wet noodles) before they perish. This would also increase the viability and appeal of builds that aren't focused on max dps.
Yes, I know it's a rant. And I know that nothing of the sort will be done.
MonadRebelion
10-06-2015, 03:52 AM
- One-shotting mecahnics. These are just unfun and infuriating.
I disagree here. I think one-shotting mechanics are good and promote diversity as long as the one-shotting mechanics work in different ways and aren't over used. I am all for one-shot mechanics.
MonadRebelion
10-06-2015, 03:59 AM
Why? Seriously, why? Why bother with this when you can just adjust the HP of the monsters?
Adjusting mob prr and mrr is really smart in my opinion. Adjusting prr allows the developers to introduce mechanics to lower prr. This could be used to promote teamwork. Also, you could give some mob really high prr but low/no mrr and vice versa. This would make some enemies stronger/weaker against different kinds of builds. Again this could be used to promote teamwork and tactics. Just raising and lowering HP doesn't do any of this.
walkin_dude
10-06-2015, 07:17 AM
Why? Seriously, why? Why bother with this when you can just adjust the HP of the monsters?
Because the players can find which way works best to damage the mob? Sort of like a more generalized version of DR, I guess. You'd be able to avoid the HP inflation by giving the monsters incomplete mitigation.
walkin_dude
10-06-2015, 07:22 AM
Another bad idea, all constant rebuffing does is annoy players, it'll do nothing to "Promote Teamwork," Seriously, what makes you think this?
I have to disagree on this. A while back, I ran epic Ghosts of Perdition, and the stat debuffs made it a real challenge. Nobody could just ignore it and keep beating on the boss. In fact, if without someone to provide restoration it was pretty much guaranteed to be a failure. It did promote teamwork and communication among the group. It wasn't convenient, but I thought it made the quest a lot better.
Feralthyrtiaq
10-06-2015, 08:22 AM
I disagree here. I think one-shotting mechanics are good and promote diversity as long as the one-shotting mechanics work in different ways and aren't over used. I am all for one-shot mechanics.
I begrudgingly agree with this. Game-play is so much more interesting with the real chance to be one-shot.
Games are not fun if you don't feel like you are "winning" to some degree or another.
They are also not fun if designed for everyone to get a Participation Ribbon.
Find a happy median between "Tiger Blood" and "Wet Paper Sack" please and thank you.
BigErkyKid
10-06-2015, 09:21 AM
Champions were put in specifically because high prr high save builds weren't challenged post-armor up. The only problem is these mobs one hit other builds but don't challenge paladins.
...
PRR is the #1 ability in end game by a huge huge margin. The devs should find this probematic but do not. Instead to increase challenge they do so in one way - increased mob damage. Which players are least impacted by this challenge boost? High PRR characters with shadow guardian on armor of course. They might find a little more challenge, but other builds can't withstand the damage period.
...
The only way I can think of to fix it is to dramatically lower the benefit of prr once you get past 100 or so - or to add random abilities to champions and other enemies that negate prr completely - rather than the ridiculous implementation in TOEE that negates a fixed amount of prr rather than a percentage of PRR and again favors high PRR builds.
For the most part - many of my characters are now high PRR characters. Some just can't get there like my assassin.
This is a huge problem and I am really weirded out by the fact that the devs do not recognize it.
Just a bit of background. Initially in DnD it was fortification what provided the benefits of PRR (avoiding spike damage). Heavy armor provided fortification and that was the main difference between dodgey toons and armored ones. It was not the chance to be hit (AC), since dodge and dexterity and what not influenced directly AC. At some point DDO moved away from that system and that was, IMHO, unnecessary. It was a lot less frequent for a monster to crit, and now that PRR provided blanket immunity to damage (as opposed to crits as fortification did), it has become FAR more valuable than fortification ever was, creating an unbalanced divide between those who have it and those who don't.
Now we have monsters that hit brutally (even in a non crit) and a divide between toons that can achieve huge PRR and those that cannot. There isn't really a way to balance between toons with such big disparities in PRR. Particularly when PRR and MRR are married. They should have NEVER been automatically married, instead allowing through investment in enhancements to increase MRR for armored toons.
For instance, compare a toon with 100 PRR to a 200 PRR with guardian armor fighting a mob that hits for 500 raw damage (not unseen in EE, not even the highest). The 100 PRR toon gets hit for 250 a hit, whereas the 200 PRR gets hit for 156. Once you take into account that low PRR toons are naturally squishier (lower HPs), that mobs often double strike and that the game is now designed around fighting multiple enemies at the same time you have low PRR toons being increasingly unviable.
It would be sort of OK and promote team play if it wasn't for the fact that not only armored PRR toons are sturdy, but they are also at the top in DPS as the game stands. So what is the point exactly of playing in end game say an assassin if the game moves further in that direction? Feeling squishy and one shot, with signature abilities that have such a long cool down that they have lost sense in the current meta.
The devs need to seriously rethink this. Challenge cannot be mobs hitting for 600 a pop (those already exist besides champions). It cannot be that encounters are solved by gathering and cleaving mobs that we cut through like butter (on some builds). Why bother then with tactics if cleaving brings you victory? How can encounters require elaborate strategies and good parties?
SirValentine
10-06-2015, 09:46 AM
Games are not fun if you don't feel like you are "winning" to some degree or another.
They are also not fun if designed for everyone to get a Participation Ribbon.
Find a happy median between "Tiger Blood" and "Wet Paper Sack" please and thank you.
A good solution to that would be meaningful difficulties, instead of Easy, Easy, Easy, and Not Quite As Easy. Casual for the Wet Paper Sack, Elite for the Tiger Blood, and Normal & Hard spread reasonably between.
walkin_dude
10-06-2015, 10:00 AM
A good solution to that would be meaningful difficulties, instead of Easy, Easy, Easy, and Not Quite As Easy. Casual for the Wet Paper Sack, Elite for the Tiger Blood, and Normal & Hard spread reasonably between.
That's what I keep saying, but I even read a developer post to the effect that elite has to be the default difficulty, at least in heroics.
Gremmlynn
10-06-2015, 12:50 PM
The way the game is designed now, they cannot make just a couple of changes and bring it back on track. There are some imbalances that need to be tackled from the root, ie from level 1.
- Attack and AC have been scaling like mad to the point where d20 is irrelevant.
- PRR has taken the place of DR, which means that enemy damage needs to be exponentially increased to create more challenging content as PRR increases. If instead of PRR we had another DR bonus (for example, gain Armor bonus to DR/- equal to min level of Heavy Armor, with Medium Armor at 2/3rd and Light Armor 1/3rd of that, and Shield bonus equal to min level of Tower Shield, 2/3rd that for Medium, 1/3rd Light), then a Heavy Armor + Tower Shield character would have extra DR 56/- which means that mob damage would not only be a lot easier to balance for new/harder/easier content, but they could also avoid the situation of the same hit dealing 500 to a non-tank and less than 100 to a tank. Not to mention that it would be in line with magic resistances.
- MRR isn't in the same boat as PRR because Magic Resistances are actually quite high atm (if I can have 56 at lvl17, I guess some lvl28s are close to 100), making its effect smaller, even though still noticeable when coming from a spell that would hit for 500. Similarily to PRR, allowing higher resistances would make it easier to balance (by also allowing Resist Elements to scale to 40, 50, 60 instead of having Inherent bonuses etc). Then reworking Protection to work AFTER Resist (and possibly scale to 200) would make that spell viable too.
- Then there's the greater issue with enemy hp, enemy numbers, instakill abilities and player desired movement speed throughout a quest. There is a cyclical situation here. Enemies are easy -> Buff their hp -> Enemies now take a lot of time to kill -> introduce instakill mechanics -> enemy groups are now easier to tackle -> buff enemy numbers so that they outnumber you -> it becomes a chore to kill them all -> introduce even more instakill mechanics on a lower cooldown and AoE instakill mechanics -> enemies are now again easier -> enemies gain immunity to death effects -> enemies now are a chore -> introduce a lot of power creep to player damage -> enemies now are easy again ->... This needs to be redesigned: Reduce instakill availability to players. No instakill effects of any kind on any equipment. Instakill abilities (either from spells or from enhancements or EDs) on a long cooldown (like 120sec). Reduce enemy numbers but keep their hp high so that enemies do not die in 2-3 autoattacks and they then manage to get 4 or 5 hits (even if they don't hit or if they hit like wet noodles) before they perish. This would also increase the viability and appeal of builds that aren't focused on max dps.
Yes, I know it's a rant. And I know that nothing of the sort will be done.PRR/MRR are actually much better than DR and resists, they just work to well with the current formula. PRR/MRR scale with content where DR/static resists don't, so they don't become irrelevant or overpowered from one opponent to the next.
My personal preference for instakills would be to give them all a damage component and base how much that damage is or if it outright kills the mob around how badly it fails it's save. Though saves are another place where the d20 system isn't working so well.
Gremmlynn
10-06-2015, 01:03 PM
I disagree here. I think one-shotting mechanics are good and promote diversity as long as the one-shotting mechanics work in different ways and aren't over used. I am all for one-shot mechanics.I disagree as there is no way to react and adjust when dead. Diverse strengths I like, but not so strong as to make it fatal and thus impossible to adjust to those strengths with one's game play.
Gremmlynn
10-06-2015, 01:07 PM
I begrudgingly agree with this. Game-play is so much more interesting with the real chance to be one-shot.
Games are not fun if you don't feel like you are "winning" to some degree or another.
They are also not fun if designed for everyone to get a Participation Ribbon.
Find a happy median between "Tiger Blood" and "Wet Paper Sack" please and thank you.Because emulating Russian Roulette is a good way to do that?
dunklezhan
10-06-2015, 01:18 PM
When i started playing in '09, one of the things that immediately grabbed my attention, and that of my friends, was Kobold Shaman on higher difficulties - they way they were casting more powerful spells, sure, but it was the fact they were casting different spells that hit us. 'This game,' we thought, 'is GMing right'. We went from a dangerous scorching ray to a lethal lightning bolt, and were amazed.
As you progress through the game though, these differences are nowhere near as apparent. Most casters in a quest appear to cast the same spells regardless of difficulty - they just dish out more damage or are harder to save. I appreciate that's because as you progress in levels there's less obvious differentiation between the spell levels, and fewer spells to choose from. Still, in terms of casters and elite difficulty, I'd like to see more spell variation. The idea that casters on elite would dispell and debuff more than on other difficulties is one I can get behind. This forces you to adjust your tactics without simply ramping up the damage or saves, if only in terms of thinking about SP cost for rebuffs and debuff removal.
We get this sometimes too with slightly different mobs appearing. That's good, but a bit more variation on what those mobs do, and what spells casters get and how they use them, is definitely part of the injection that Elite needs.
That's the kind of thing I want from Elite. I want it to be differently tougher, not just tougher.
Gremmlynn
10-06-2015, 01:22 PM
That's what I keep saying, but I even read a developer post to the effect that elite has to be the default difficulty, at least in heroics.We can likely blame Bravery Bonus for that, for the most part, as it made anything but elite seem pointless to play for to many people to not be the default.
walkin_dude
10-06-2015, 02:14 PM
We can likely blame Bravery Bonus for that, for the most part, as it made anything but elite seem pointless to play for to many people to not be the default.
Yep, plus the tie-in with favor. When was first announced, I was afraid that would ultimately be the result. Don't get me wrong, now, I love the XP that comes from BB, but it has definitely had some less desirable consequences.
Vulkoorex
10-06-2015, 02:26 PM
No shrines.
Item wear increases by 100%.
No re-entry allowed.
No rez cakes.
Increase % of items breaking in inventory (wands, potions, scrolls, etc)
More rust monsters and con damage beholders.
IronClan
10-06-2015, 02:43 PM
So obviously there's a clear consensus in this thread that we all want the new challenges to be completely free of "annoyances". And this means:
Higher hp
Lower hp
Mob MRR and PRR
No mob MRR and PRR
One shotting ocasionally
One shotting never, it's too annoying
Dispelling
No dispelling that's annoying
Buffs and tactics
Except ANNOYING buffs and Tactics
Long term curses
No long term curses they are annoying
Harsh Death penalties
Except where the harsh death penalties are also annoying
Stat damage that's scary because it gives healer types some minor niche
But that's annoying so screw them..
So anyway based on all this common ground it should be a snap to get this right: Sev, Varg, Steel and co. it's a snap guys, always good to know you can't possibly wi...fail... you can't possible fail.
Memnir do me a solid and post a quote of this with the "just wish you good luck" scene from Airplane.
Champions were put in specifically because high prr high save builds weren't challenged post-armor up. The only problem is these mobs one hit other builds but don't challenge paladins.
This is yet another problem with past expectations hampering the game; Pajama builds should not be toe to toe melee's they should have to be played in ways that compensate for their squishiness. Avoiding multiple mobs agrro at once, concentrating on casters agrro (evasion) and manuvering to heal and avoid prolonged toe toe with more than one mob.
It's also untrue that any Pajama build is being one shotted by stuff that can't harm a Paladin, 100 PRR on a Pajama build is within ~10% of the mitigation of a 130 PRR melee in Heavy armor such as a THF Paladin or barb.
Unless there's some crazy math error going on 10% less mitigation should never equal getting one shotted unless he's ALMOST one shotting the Paladin...
On the other hand his 25-30% dodge miss chance and 25% Incorp miss chance + evasion should MORE THAN compensate for having ~10% less PRR compared to the heavy armored melee's 3 to 4% dodge and 10% incorp.
Why? Seriously, why? Why bother with this when you can just adjust the HP of the monsters?
Caster's do less DPS now than Melees do unless they are Warlocks, they use SP unless they are Warlocks, MRR and PRR allow a mob to be vulnerable to nuking but tough against melee and vice versa. So the answer is: variety and balance.
Basura_Grande
10-06-2015, 02:51 PM
Caster's do less DPS now than Melees do unless they are Warlocks, they use SP unless they are Warlocks, MRR and PRR allow a mob to be vulnerable to nuking but tough against melee and vice versa. So the answer is: variety and balance.
That argument makes sense, though I'd rather see a more balanced damage output between casters, ranged, and melee.
Also makes Celstia valuable as it blows right through PRR . . . maybe give some mobs Celestias! :)
BigErkyKid
10-06-2015, 03:04 PM
So obviously there's a clear consensus in this thread that we all want the new challenges to be completely free of "annoyances". And this means:.
...
Pajama builds should not be toe to toe melee's they should have to be played in ways that compensate for their squishiness.
All I read in this is that people have different preferences and some simply do not want more challenge. Then something about you not wanting harmor to be nerfed.
You are wrong. People are getting two shot by mobs now in some content. EE is the land of very well geared toons and excuse me but even in the top end some classes are way squishier than others.
As long as PRR + HPs are so different across toons there won't be a way to generate balance between the two. Mobs that can destroy a rogue cannot hurt a paladin / barb, and if you build challenge for the latter they simply 2 shot squishier toons. You can stack all the dodge you want, but you WILL be landed two shots in a row. And good luck playing by killing one mob at a time in quests that are designed to swarm you.
MonadRebelion
10-06-2015, 03:29 PM
I disagree as there is no way to react and adjust when dead. Diverse strengths I like, but not so strong as to make it fatal and thus impossible to adjust to those strengths with one's game play.
Take every one-shot mechanic you can think of (e.g. champion hit, trap, instakill spell) and throw it in a pile. Now you a pile full of reasons to build different kinds of characters with different abilities and group with those characters with different abilities. Without a variety of one-shot mechanics (especially at this point) it is nearly impossible to kill a well developed character.
People say one-shot mechanics eliminate skill. I don't believe this for a second. I play characters that could get one-shotted all the time. I know this because sometimes I get one-shotted. Nevertheless, I have knowledge of the game that allows me to get by. If you really think one-shot mechanics eliminate skill roll up a brand new character and play by really hardcore PD rules. People who play by these rules are in scenarios where they can get one-shotted all the time. If your explanation as to how these players survive is that it is all luck and no skill, you're just posturing. Sure PD play involves luck, but it's more skill than luck.
Not to single out paladins - and I am not suggesting any nerfs- but this is a huge problem that will only get worse with level cap 30.
Champions were put in specifically because high prr high save builds weren't challenged post-armor up. The only problem is these mobs one hit other builds but don't challenge paladins.
They need to replace things like complete fort byass with mortal fear in champion mobs - something that is prr neutral.
PRR is the #1 ability in end game by a huge huge margin. The devs should find this probematic but do not. Instead to increase challenge they do so in one way - increased mob damage. Which players are least impacted by this challenge boost? High PRR characters with shadow guardian on armor of course. They might find a little more challenge, but other builds can't withstand the damage period.
So when are the devs going to understand adding more damage is not an effective way to add challenge as it simply favors the builds that are already heavily favored in the current game? The only way I can think of to fix it is to dramatically lower the benefit of prr once you get past 100 or so - or to add random abilities to champions and other enemies that negate prr completely - rather than the ridiculous implementation in TOEE that negates a fixed amount of prr rather than a percentage of PRR and again favors high PRR builds.
For the most part - many of my characters are now high PRR characters. Some just can't get there like my assassin.
I always felt MRR was the big mistake, not PRR. Im fine with the paladin mitigating melee damage better than everyone else (parallel to anyone else who can put on heavy plate and a shield) if they have a different weakness. The high PRR heavy plate build wont have evasion so they normally would be weaker to magic (even with higher saves) but MRR assists in mitigating that. With no MRR mechanic paladins would take half to full damage on all magical attacks, whiel evasion characters would get hit harder in melee, but take far less magical damage due to a lot of damage sources being save for half (save for no damage with evasion).
AKA - there would at least be a trade off if MRR wasn't implemented.
The fact that heavy armor mitigates magic damage is a terrible mechanic. The character encased in steel should especially be taking MORE electric damage if anything, not less.
MonadRebelion
10-06-2015, 03:32 PM
Also makes Celstia valuable as it blows right through PRR . . . maybe give some mobs Celestias! :)
Would love to see this.
Basura_Grande
10-06-2015, 03:34 PM
Would love to see this.
I'd much rather see some mobs ignore PRR than ignore fortification. Neither is a good idea but the former is less broken than the latter.
Basura_Grande
10-06-2015, 03:36 PM
The fact that heavy armor mitigates magic damage is a terrible mechanic. The character encased in steel should especially be taking MORE electric damage if anything, not less.
Have you ever used an oven mitt? Did it stop your hand from burning?
Kuttamia
10-06-2015, 03:38 PM
I am glad they buffed up the monsters, stopped many builds from just bunny hopping through EE. EE should be reserved for only the best. This is just one good step in bringing back the fear of Elite difficulty for pugs.
I'd much rather see some mobs ignore PRR than ignore fortification. Neither is a good idea but the former is less broken than the latter.
People should have to choose what type of DR the PRR provides, and if mobs are coded with the ability to break that DR, then they take full damage. For a lawful good paladin, if the mob had a chaotic evil DR breaker, they should be able to break the paladins DR, as an example.
This way it wouldn't have to ALWAYS be a champion who can ignore the PRR.
MonadRebelion
10-06-2015, 03:51 PM
I'd much rather see some mobs ignore PRR than ignore fortification. Neither is a good idea but the former is less broken than the latter.
I would love to see mobs have all the things we have that make us so dangerous to them. That's dnd. Your enemies are developed NPCs just as you are a developed PC. They have access to all the devastating things you have, and they apply them with the same devastating force. If all the power is in the hands of the PCs you end up with what we have now.
It seems to me that the game is so easy now that people are starting to get scared of things that were standard in the old epics. As far as I can tell, the only real problem with the old epics had to do with having to wait for roles. For instance, there wasn't any concern that one-shot mechanics were intrinsically bad or that they somehow eliminated skill. People might have thought it was incidentally bad that they had to wait for a cleric so they could get deathward, but nobody thought it was just a bad game design that they could get instakilled.
Qhualor
10-06-2015, 03:53 PM
People should have to choose what type of DR the PRR provides, and if mobs are coded with the ability to break that DR, then they take full damage. For a lawful good paladin, if the mob had a chaotic evil DR breaker, they should be able to break the paladins DR, as an example.
This way it wouldn't have to ALWAYS be a champion who can ignore the PRR.
If you mean choosing as in choosing your alignment and mobs able to bypass that alignment PRR, than that pretty much goes hand in hand with one of my suggestions awhile back on increasing challenge in a more suitable way. I don't think it should be Champion only though. This would bring back more meaning to which alignment you choose beyond class requirements, bypassing umd for certain weapons/items and flavor.
Basura_Grande
10-06-2015, 03:56 PM
I would love to see mobs have all the things we have that make us so dangerous to them. That's dnd. Your enemies are developed NPCs just as you are a developed PC. They have access to all the devastating things you have, and they apply them with the same devastating force. If all the power is in the hands of the PCs you end up with what we have now.
never happen, the AI is too dumb. if you put too much dumb power in the hands of dumb AI we'll out-smart it and out-cheese it. Look at EE GH when mobs were hitting for 350 a shot when melees had maybe 800 HP, might as well have called the game Shiradi and Monkchers online.
It seems to me that the game is so easy now that people are starting to get scared of things that were standard in the old epics.
nonsense, we'd just like to keep the "stupid" to a minimum.
"Standard in old epics" was full of stupid. Do we need to post the scroll-farmer casters perching videos again?
MonadRebelion
10-06-2015, 04:01 PM
Have you ever used an oven mitt? Did it stop your hand from burning?
MRR is a stupid mechanic, in my view, but it doesn't have anything to do with how "realistic" the effects of magical spells should be. Appeals to realism in my view can largely be ignored so long as things are "realistic" enough. The reason mrr is stupid is that it gives evasion to everyone for free. As a dnd player, my view is that people need to learn the class they are playing. If you feel like your character is missing something essential to your vision of the character, there is multiclassing. If a player told me he wanted to play a bard and then went on to describe his character doing fighter-like things, doing nothing bard-like, and asked me to change the bard class to match his idea, I'd tell him/her to roll up a fighter and role-play that you are a bard, because it sounds like that is what you really want to do.
Basura_Grande
10-06-2015, 04:07 PM
MRR is a stupid mechanic, in my view, but it doesn't have anything to do with how "realistic" the effects of magical spells should be. Appeals to realism in my view can largely be ignored so long as things are "realistic" enough. The reason mrr is stupid is that it gives evasion to everyone for free..
Nonsense. EE Defiler or Miior room in Haunted hauls are a few encounters where this is absolutely not true.
MonadRebelion
10-06-2015, 04:20 PM
never happen, the AI is too dumb. if you put too much dumb power in the hands of dumb AI we'll out-smart it and out-cheese it. Look at EE GH when mobs were hitting for 350 a shot when melees had maybe 800 HP, might as well have called the game Shiradi and Monkchers online.
nonsense, we'd just like to keep the "stupid" to a minimum.
"Standard in old epics" was full of stupid. Do we need to post the scroll-farmer casters perching videos again?
I remember the day epic GH came out. I ran ee quests on my first life barb with no healer. If people don't want to learn how to overcome challenges on their characters, so be it. I like figuring how to play characters in difficult conditions.
It is true that AI is not up the intelligence of any real NPC, but that isn't a reason to not give them abilities that make them more dangerous. That sounds like a reason to make sure that a particular enemy has a smaller menu of dangerous stuff to pick from. Just give enemies a bunch of different smaller menus of really potent stuff.
Perching etc. is a cheese ball tactic that people resort to when they are out classed. It is not a fun way to play the game, and it's what people do when they've figured out more fun tactics to allow them to succeed. I don't worry so much about things like perching because things like perches can always be eliminated if they are found to be ruining the game, it's a lazy way of playing that people won't do when they've figured out better ways of playing. I'm not worried about things like boring but efficient scroll farming. If the ratio of boring to rewarding is right nothing game breaking will happen. If it is too effective it can be fixed.
MonadRebelion
10-06-2015, 04:23 PM
Nonsense. EE Defiler or Miior room in Haunted hauls are a few encounters where this is absolutely not true.
I suspect you're thinking of improved evasion. If you're thinking of Miior you are probably thinking of improved evasion with a no fail on 1.
Basura_Grande
10-06-2015, 04:24 PM
I suspect you're thinking of improved evasion. If you're thinking of Miior you are probably thinking of improved evasion with a no fail on 1.
Doesn't matter because either way I'm right.
Have you ever used an oven mitt? Did it stop your hand from burning?
against magical fires as hot as the sun? it wouldn't.
people encased in full steel should take more electric damage.
Without MRR the following trade off occurs.
Heavy/medium armor + shield take less physical damage but more magic damage
Evasion has to wear light so takes more physical damage but less magic damage
Right now theres not much of a trade off due to MRR. Plate wearers take less physical damage, but aren't weak to magic damage either.
Nonsense. EE Defiler or Miior room in Haunted hauls are a few encounters where this is absolutely not true.
those are exceptions to the rule, not the rule itself. If dodge builds have to deal with heavy spike physical damage, it would be fair if plate wearers had to deal with heavy spike magic damage. With 100 resist + 33% absorb + draconic 50% absorb, they aren't dealing with heavy spike damage, even in those situations which are the exception, like miior.
Basura_Grande
10-06-2015, 04:38 PM
against magical fires as hot as the sun? it wouldn't.
Hot as the sun? Citation needed.
And a MAGIC oven mitt would still work :)
Regarding electricity, are we assuming the ONLY thing in the armor is metal? No non-conductive padding at all?
And you know what's WAY more broken than MRR? Filling the game with so many save-or-die one-shot AoEs that the only choice before this was evasions and pally saves. Now we at least have an option.
Basura_Grande
10-06-2015, 04:39 PM
those are exceptions to the rule, not the rule itself. If dodge builds have to deal with heavy spike physical damage, it would be fair if plate wearers had to deal with heavy spike magic damage. With 100 resist + 33% absorb + draconic 50% absorb, they aren't dealing with heavy spike damage, even in those situations which are the exception, like miior.
I get what you're saying, I just don't agree with it.
Even though it made the game easier I'm happy the heavy armor is now more effective than what the Stormtroopers used to wear.
Wulverine
10-06-2015, 04:45 PM
Afaik, Reaper is supposed to be the new endgame. A layer of new gameplay that is added for players wanting to test out their built up characters. Reaper mode and it's systems/mechanics should be as far away from Epic Difficulty as Epic Difficulty is to Heroic. Endgame content in an MMO should be about teamwork with players having different roles (imo). Not 6 or 12 solo builds grouping up to make things faster.
If Turbine fails to deliver on that....
...then what else is there?
Hot as the sun? Citation needed.
And a MAGIC oven mitt would still work :)
Regarding electricity, are we assuming the ONLY thing in the armor is metal? No non-conductive padding at all?
And you know what's WAY more broken than MRR? Filling the game with so many save-or-die one-shot AoEs that the only choice before this was evasions and pally saves. Now we at least have an option.
Magic that melts things to slag when the item doesn't make its saving throw would cook the human inside. Oven mitt would provide 5 points of DR against a 5k+ crit.
So the boots on that full plate are padded with inches of rubber like Galosh, and that gleaming metal sword and shield are fully insulated like instrument cables? Yeap that Egyptian llama hair goes a long way. :p
Oh, and sonic damage at a high level would destroy bone structure, regardless of metal being in front of it or not. After about 117 db, humans start bleeding from their ears.
I get what you're saying, I just don't agree with it.
Even though it made the game easier I'm happy the heavy armor is now more effective than what the Stormtroopers used to wear.
yeah its the lesser of two evils for sure, but having an actual trade off would be better.
Basura_Grande
10-06-2015, 04:46 PM
Afaik, Reaper is supposed to be the new endgame. A layer of new gameplay that is added for players wanting to test out their built up characters. Endgame content in an MMO should be about teamwork with players having different roles (imo). Reaper mode and it's systems/mechanics should be as far away from Epic Difficulty as Epic Difficulty is to Heroic.
If Turbine fails to deliver on that....
...then what else is there?
I don't think anyone refutes this, but the devil is in the details.
MonadRebelion
10-06-2015, 04:47 PM
[QUOTE=Wulverine;5699740
If Turbine fails to deliver on that....
...then what else is there?[/QUOTE]
Indeed.
Qhualor
10-06-2015, 04:58 PM
I remember the day epic GH came out. I ran ee quests on my first life barb with no healer. If people don't want to learn how to overcome challenges on their characters, so be it. I like figuring how to play characters in difficult conditions.
I remember those days too before Armor Up. running those quests as a melee on any class and it was basically suicide going toe to toe with mobs, even with the layered defenses we had then. its why every melee build had Consecrated Ground and why ranged dps was the preferred play style back then too. I always considered EGH damage to be unbalanced when it would take 1/2/3 hits to kill you after your defenses and realized that concentration didn't work regardless how much investment you had in the skill to umd heal scrolls. ive always been on board with increasing challenge in this game, but that was just too much. and I used to solo epic quests on my barb before they had difficulty settings. the damage felt more balanced back then although casters were more widely known to solo those epic quests much easier.
McFlay
10-06-2015, 06:57 PM
Afaik, Reaper is supposed to be the new endgame. A layer of new gameplay that is added for players wanting to test out their built up characters. Reaper mode and it's systems/mechanics should be as far away from Epic Difficulty as Epic Difficulty is to Heroic. Endgame content in an MMO should be about teamwork with players having different roles (imo). Not 6 or 12 solo builds grouping up to make things faster.
If Turbine fails to deliver on that....
...then what else is there?
But every build can very easily be made into a solo build now...Turbine has already screwed the game up beyond belief in this respect. We don't have any aspect of teamwork or team mechanics anymore...every class just does everything that is needed to get the job done. Its just a bunch of self healing dps machines racing for kills these days.
I've been wondering for a while now why people seem to want team play in this game so badly when all "team play" amounts to anymore is just some guy soloing next to you...its a joke.
slarden
10-06-2015, 07:47 PM
This is yet another problem with past expectations hampering the game; Pajama builds should not be toe to toe melee's they should have to be played in ways that compensate for their squishiness. Avoiding multiple mobs agrro at once, concentrating on casters agrro (evasion) and manuvering to heal and avoid prolonged toe toe with more than one mob.
It's also untrue that any Pajama build is being one shotted by stuff that can't harm a Paladin, 100 PRR on a Pajama build is within ~10% of the mitigation of a 130 PRR melee in Heavy armor such as a THF Paladin or barb.
Unless there's some crazy math error going on 10% less mitigation should never equal getting one shotted unless he's ALMOST one shotting the Paladin...
On the other hand his 25-30% dodge miss chance and 25% Incorp miss chance + evasion should MORE THAN compensate for having ~10% less PRR compared to the heavy armored melee's 3 to 4% dodge and 10% incorp.
.
There is absolutely no form of defense in the game that makes up for getting one-shotted which happens due to the combination of damage boost + total fortification bypass. Fortification prevents damage spikes which kept this type of variance from happening in the past.
If you compare a paladin dual wielding with no past lifes in divine crusader (150 PRR) to a dual wielding assassin in shadowdancer (85 PRR) it's fairly easy to understand the difference. The paladin has 20% hp on top of the bonus hp each level so lets say 1100hp and 60% dr compared to an assassin with 800 hp and 46% dr. A champ with fort bypass and damage boost crits for 1500 before dr. The assassin is dead and the paladin takes 600 damage and is sitting at 500 with a tick of consecration and cocoon bringing the paladin to or near full.
A barbarian would be able a drink of silver flame away from being at full.
The devs are making dps roughly equal regardless of survivability. My assassin can likely out dps a paladin in perfect conditions, but not by very much. A paladin's defensive advantage over an assassin is enormous.
I play all the builds basically so I don't care which is on top and which is weak - but I do notice the big differences.
One shots aren't all that common since the double champion adjustment and I haven't seen any in the most recent 2 packs, but it still happens.
IronClan
10-07-2015, 03:40 AM
I always felt MRR was the big mistake, not PRR. Im fine with the paladin mitigating melee damage better than everyone else (parallel to anyone else who can put on heavy plate and a shield) if they have a different weakness.
Yeah there are no fantasy tropes that justify MRR or anything
http://cinemademerde.com/sites/default/files/styles/full_movie_image/public/movie_image/Dragonslayer-fire_0.gif
erm how'd that Dragonslayer shot get there.. As you can see his shield is clearly doubling his MRR value, and his armor is protecting from the secondary flames licking past :) Of course much like MRR he's still not getting anywhere near the benefit of an Evasion toon simply jumping out of the way and taking no heat at all.
What? This is at least as relevant to a D&D discussion as trying to cite historical armor.
Evasion especially improved evasion which lets you get lazy with your reflex save to some degree, are still much much better than MRR, having done 40 or more mods on multiple characters with and without evasion I felt the difference starkly. In fact my Staff Monk with 900hps survives better in their than Sword and Board builds with 1200hps well as long as I don't count the blind tiling part, actually even then abundant step is nice for tiling.
Whats more armor in this game isn't by any means all metal, in fact the best armor IMO is Dragon scale, which any fictional way you look at it should be very resilient to elements.
I also get the impression that you think medieval knights were running around with metal strapped directly to their naked bodies. Most armor was hard boiled cow hide and padding to which metal was attached. Not exactly thermally or electrically conductive, and the metal is often shiny, while metal is conductive it is also good at reflecting some energy away dissipating some while the cow hide and padding behind it interrupts the thermal transfer (see survival blanket example hint: the reflective surface faces one direction when cold out, the other direction when hot out). Then considering that and the fact that every piece of metal armor anyone is wearing in this game is magically enchanted I don't see much reason to assume they made it poorly or with direct conductivity to the body. I believe you're making up an assumption that fits the argument you want to support even if the assumption is bad.
IronClan
10-07-2015, 04:15 AM
If you compare a paladin dual wielding with no past lifes in divine crusader (150 PRR) to a dual wielding assassin in shadowdancer (85 PRR) it's fairly easy to understand the difference. The paladin has 20% hp on top of the bonus hp each level so lets say 1100hp and 60% dr compared to an assassin with 800 hp and 46% dr. A champ with fort bypass and damage boost crits for 1500 before dr. The assassin is dead and the paladin takes 600 damage and is sitting at 500 with a tick of consecration and cocoon bringing the paladin to or near full
Ah the Forum version of DDO is so much fun: The only version of DDO where a 14% difference in mitigation is a 100% death sentence. There's this fabled one shot champ that exists almost no where in the actual game that I've found, but of course is ever-present in the Forum version. Yep one is dead and the other isn't because of a Destiny healing ability that can be twisted, but the Rogue perversely chooses not to use any healing because the Rogue favors slarden's version of Forum DDO... Of course the rogue has also agreeably decided to not be missed in Slarden's version of forum DDO despite having much higher miss chance than the Paladin... And I'm guessing he's also not even in shadow form because who wants to mess up forum DDO with silly things like that. We can also safely assume there's no evasion version of his example because his Forum version probably doesn't have any evadable damage.
Yep it's all so cut and dried when everything favorable is included and anything non favorable is completely ignored.
BigErkyKid
10-07-2015, 04:56 AM
Ah the Forum version of DDO is so much fun: The only version of DDO where a 14% difference in mitigation is a 100% death sentence. There's this fabled one shot champ that exists almost no where in the actual game that I've found, but of course is ever-present in the Forum version. Yep one is dead and the other isn't because of a Destiny healing ability that can be twisted, but the Rogue perversely chooses not to use any healing because the Rogue favors slarden's version of Forum DDO... Of course the rogue has also agreeably decided to not be missed in Slarden's version of forum DDO despite having much higher miss chance than the Paladin... And I'm guessing he's also not even in shadow form because who wants to mess up forum DDO with silly things like that. We can also safely assume there's no evasion version of his example because his Forum version probably doesn't have any evadable damage.
Yep it's all so cut and dried when everything favorable is included and anything non favorable is completely ignored.
Way out of line.
He provided an example of how some extreme challenge can outright kill a rogue on a bad roll, whereas even in that case it would not kill the paladin. Mind me, the paladin can also stack to miss chances.
In any case, when fighting multiple mobs (name a single quest where you don't have to fight packs of mobs), the odds that someone will get pass the to miss chance and hit grow a lot. Combined with dodge classes being squishy, this often ends in a DING!
Yes now we know that IronClan's rogue only has a tiny bit less PRR (30 less) and that he moves around amazingly to only fight one mob at a time which happens to be turned around because it has been hit by a deception proc...
Let's face it: dings are a lot more frequent on dodge classes and they DO NOT have a lot more DPS to compensate for that.
Kuttamia
10-07-2015, 06:18 AM
Way out of line.
He provided an example of how some extreme challenge can outright kill a rogue on a bad roll, whereas even in that case it would not kill the paladin. Mind me, the paladin can also stack to miss chances.
In any case, when fighting multiple mobs (name a single quest where you don't have to fight packs of mobs), the odds that someone will get pass the to miss chance and hit grow a lot. Combined with dodge classes being squishy, this often ends in a DING!
Yes now we know that IronClan's rogue only has a tiny bit less PRR (30 less) and that he moves around amazingly to only fight one mob at a time which happens to be turned around because it has been hit by a deception proc...
Let's face it: dings are a lot more frequent on dodge classes and they DO NOT have a lot more DPS to compensate for that.
U are thinking the wrong way. Ur looking at the game from a traditional perspective where if u can take damage, u should not be able to do as much damage as someone who cant take much damage. Its the typical tank, healer, dps mentality. Ddo is way past the point of role playing. Majority of the ppl demanded for higher difficulty in epic elites and the devs responded by giving you more difficulty. This game is all about self sufficiencies now, so that mens if u cant take a hit, u better make sure u stay away from the monsters or find a way to temporarily allow you to come in and get out fast. To play safe, if ur light armored or wearing robes for ees above 30, go for range. Yes that means some trees are going to get smashed by monsters, but thats just too bad, suck it up and deal with it.
Qhualor
10-07-2015, 06:52 AM
Way out of line.
He provided an example of how some extreme challenge can outright kill a rogue on a bad roll, whereas even in that case it would not kill the paladin. Mind me, the paladin can also stack to miss chances.
In any case, when fighting multiple mobs (name a single quest where you don't have to fight packs of mobs), the odds that someone will get pass the to miss chance and hit grow a lot. Combined with dodge classes being squishy, this often ends in a DING!
Yes now we know that IronClan's rogue only has a tiny bit less PRR (30 less) and that he moves around amazingly to only fight one mob at a time which happens to be turned around because it has been hit by a deception proc...
Let's face it: dings are a lot more frequent on dodge classes and they DO NOT have a lot more DPS to compensate for that.
huh? what a terrible post. do you really believe any of this?
BigErkyKid
10-07-2015, 06:58 AM
huh? what a terrible post. do you really believe any of this?
LOL
It is the truth. But hey, maybe I am not carrying enough cure serious pots to face the extreme challenge?
BigErkyKid
10-07-2015, 07:07 AM
U are thinking the wrong way. Ur looking at the game from a traditional perspective where if u can take damage, u should not be able to do as much damage as someone who cant take much damage. Its the typical tank, healer, dps mentality. Ddo is way past the point of role playing. Majority of the ppl demanded for higher difficulty in epic elites and the devs responded by giving you more difficulty. This game is all about self sufficiencies now, so that mens if u cant take a hit, u better make sure u stay away from the monsters or find a way to temporarily allow you to come in and get out fast. To play safe, if ur light armored or wearing robes for ees above 30, go for range. Yes that means some trees are going to get smashed by monsters, but thats just too bad, suck it up and deal with it.
Or maybe instead of scaling damage that way, add difficulty by giving monsters other abilities.
And if PRR was curved a bit, it would be possible to cut some of the differences between uber and peasant.
Qhualor
10-07-2015, 07:09 AM
LOL
It is the truth. But hey, maybe I am not carrying enough cure serious pots to face the extreme challenge?
hey, at least I survived in an EE quest on a low PRR, 100% fort, low dodge and thrown together gear using CSW pots. you apparently cant even build a character that has high dodge and high dps to survive with better self healing. so how can you have a leg to stand on?
BigErkyKid
10-07-2015, 07:16 AM
hey, at least I survived in an EE quest on a low PRR, 100% fort, low dodge and thrown together gear using CSW pots. you apparently cant even build a character that has high dodge and high dps to survive with better self healing. so how can you have a leg to stand on?
Congrats, you beat LoD EE! I will leave the ad hominem aside.
You guys have evidence against, forum drama is not going to change that. Go play lvl30s epic elite and record the damage that some of the mobs are doing. It is somehow oddly distributed (some hit with wet noodles, others like trucks) but for some of the mobs it is clear that a lowish PRR&HPs build has a huge disadvantage.
slarden
10-07-2015, 07:39 AM
Ah the Forum version of DDO is so much fun: The only version of DDO where a 14% difference in mitigation is a 100% death sentence. There's this fabled one shot champ that exists almost no where in the actual game that I've found, but of course is ever-present in the Forum version. Yep one is dead and the other isn't because of a Destiny healing ability that can be twisted, but the Rogue perversely chooses not to use any healing because the Rogue favors slarden's version of Forum DDO... Of course the rogue has also agreeably decided to not be missed in Slarden's version of forum DDO despite having much higher miss chance than the Paladin... And I'm guessing he's also not even in shadow form because who wants to mess up forum DDO with silly things like that. We can also safely assume there's no evasion version of his example because his Forum version probably doesn't have any evadable damage.
Yep it's all so cut and dried when everything favorable is included and anything non favorable is completely ignored.
First of all I specifically stated I haven't seen any one-shotting in the newest content, but then again I have migrated most of my characters to higher PRR (min 125 on all but my assassin and thrower) so my perspective might be off.
I showed you a very precise example with actual math. I used 1500 as an example but I took well over 1500 from a champion lich in GOP last night, and alot of people were complaining of getting one-shot in there - the damage was ramped up it seems. I used an example of a paladin in a typical destiny and an assassin in a typical destiny - nothing I stated was using anything far fetched. My 15 paladin/5 ranger runs in divine crusader and my rogue 20 assassin runs in shadowdancer - those are REAL examples .
Of course cocoon is available to both characters, but the point is one is dead and one is at half. Cocoon doesn't work when dead and that is the point. The difference in hp will be greater at level 30 than it is now meaning the damage spikes will need to be larger to challenge my paladin so the issue gets worse at level 30.
One thing I've found playing my assassin with very high damage avoidance - about the max possible - it is in my sig - is that no matter how good my damage avoidance is I can't avoid damage all the time and eventually those one-shots will get me.
The thing I noticed about my paladin is that i never get one shotted and can always recover with consecration and cocoon quickly and of course always have the lay on hands if needed which I never run out of.
I am telling you my experience from playing both not theory-crafting. I love playing my assassin simply because I enjoy doing well with a build that is handicapped by Turbine relative to other builds - less so since the pass though. I've been to solo some extremely difficult content on EE in reasonable times with my assassin so I am quite comfortable without how it's build, bu it's weakness are very clear - getting one shotted. I enjoy paladin because it's so easy - nice break sometimes lol.
Now if I compare that to my thrower build it's very different than my assassin because most big threats require close range and my thrower can eliminate high-damage-dealing enemies without getting close. So yeah damage avoidance helps alot there because most of the enemy threats are not serious from longer ranger and I can kill the enemies before they get to me - so there are low PRR builds that do well in the game. Assassins are a low prr melee build and in my opinion the damage boost they got was welcomed and appreciated, but not nearly enough to compensate for their squishiness when looking at all the revamped classes in total - it seems DPS is set about equal and other abilities don't have to be equal. DPS used to be the hallmark of an assassin and now it's only slightly better than fortress builds - and once you factor need to leave combat to stay alive and of course deaths - I am guessing an assassin ends up behind most of these builds , Still, it's a fun build, but if you look at the number of assassins on Sarlona compared to the number of paladins or barbarians in high level ee content - it's quite obvious where that build stands even after the pass.
BigErkyKid
10-07-2015, 08:10 AM
Yeah there are no fantasy tropes that justify MRR or anything
http://cinemademerde.com/sites/default/files/styles/full_movie_image/public/movie_image/Dragonslayer-fire_0.gif
e.
I don't mind some characters specializing in protection against magic being heavily armored. Or even some armors to give good protection against it somehow natively. But fully marrying PRR to MRR lacks balance heavily.
Qhualor
10-07-2015, 09:38 AM
Congrats, you beat LoD EE! I will leave the ad hominem aside.
You guys have evidence against, forum drama is not going to change that. Go play lvl30s epic elite and record the damage that some of the mobs are doing. It is somehow oddly distributed (some hit with wet noodles, others like trucks) but for some of the mobs it is clear that a lowish PRR&HPs build has a huge disadvantage.
Just like most others in that thread, you missed the entire point of why I posted that video. For the hundredth time, it was not to show me soloing a quest. I t was to show the Devs how Blood Strength was working. This is why I now send videos privately to the Devs instead of posting them publicly.
BigErkyKid
10-07-2015, 10:04 AM
Just like most others in that thread, you missed the entire point of why I posted that video. For the hundredth time, it was not to show me soloing a quest. I t was to show the Devs how Blood Strength was working. This is why I now send videos privately to the Devs instead of posting them publicly.
I shouldn't have bashed you on it, but frankly your answer was impolite enough for me to respond. I derive no pleasure in having flame wars with people in the forums, as I hope my previous posting history shows.
So let's stick to the topic. I don't care about your videos nor about your skill. It is a real problem when you have a huge disparity in mitigation between builds. Miss chances don't cut it given that mitigation comes with HPs and self healing in two of the most prominent classes. If it is challenging for the top dogs, dodge classes cannot stay in combat.
That's one of the issues we have been discussing.
Kuttamia
10-07-2015, 10:13 AM
I shouldn't have bashed you on it, but frankly your answer was impolite enough for me to respond. I derive no pleasure in having flame wars with people in the forums, as I hope my previous posting history shows.
So let's stick to the topic. I don't care about your videos nor about your skill. It is a real problem when you have a huge disparity in mitigation between builds. Miss chances don't cut it given that mitigation comes with HPs and self healing in two of the most prominent classes. If it is challenging for the top dogs, dodge classes cannot stay in combat.
That's one of the issues we have been discussing.
Nothing is challenging for top dogs. This is epic elite, there is a reason why its called "elite." The fact is, the vast majority of ddo players are noobs but want to complete ee content like the top dogs. The usual pattern when a new difficulty is introduced is that the vast majority of players will get hammered and they will come to the forum to complain about it, but soon or later top dog playera will come up with a way to tweak builds and playstyles in order to demolish this new challenge. After that the rest will follow them. This change in difficulty for these specific lv 30 epic elite contents is still in the early stage, wait for the top dogs to do their thing.
BigErkyKid
10-07-2015, 10:31 AM
Nothing is challenging for top dogs. This is epic elite, there is a reason why its called "elite." The fact is, the vast majority of ddo players are noobs but want to complete ee content like the top dogs. The usual pattern when a new difficulty is introduced is that the vast majority of players will get hammered and they will come to the forum to complain about it, but soon or later top dog playera will come up with a way to tweak builds and playstyles in order to demolish this new challenge. After that the rest will follow them. This change in difficulty for these specific lv 30 epic elite contents is still in the early stage, wait for the top dogs to do their thing.
Top dogs was referring to builds, not to people. I already know how to deal with those changes in spike damage: roll a high PRR high HP toon or go ranged. I don't think this is a good way to implement difficulty, though, that's all.
Gremmlynn
10-07-2015, 11:56 AM
Take every one-shot mechanic you can think of (e.g. champion hit, trap, instakill spell) and throw it in a pile. Now you a pile full of reasons to build different kinds of characters with different abilities and group with those characters with different abilities. Without a variety of one-shot mechanics (especially at this point) it is nearly impossible to kill a well developed character.
People say one-shot mechanics eliminate skill. I don't believe this for a second. I play characters that could get one-shotted all the time. I know this because sometimes I get one-shotted. Nevertheless, I have knowledge of the game that allows me to get by. If you really think one-shot mechanics eliminate skill roll up a brand new character and play by really hardcore PD rules. People who play by these rules are in scenarios where they can get one-shotted all the time. If your explanation as to how these players survive is that it is all luck and no skill, you're just posturing. Sure PD play involves luck, but it's more skill than luck.I'm just not a big fan of designing around meta-gaming. The problem I have with that explanation is that the only real way to find out what will one shot you is to be one shot. I'm more a fan of mobs that hit hard, but not so hard as to not allow a player to react to being hit hard. That's what I consider player skill.
redoubt
10-07-2015, 12:09 PM
U are thinking the wrong way. Ur looking at the game from a traditional perspective where if u can take damage, u should not be able to do as much damage as someone who cant take much damage. Its the typical tank, healer, dps mentality. Ddo is way past the point of role playing. Majority of the ppl demanded for higher difficulty in epic elites and the devs responded by giving you more difficulty. This game is all about self sufficiencies now, so that mens if u cant take a hit, u better make sure u stay away from the monsters or find a way to temporarily allow you to come in and get out fast. To play safe, if ur light armored or wearing robes for ees above 30, go for range. Yes that means some trees are going to get smashed by monsters, but thats just too bad, suck it up and deal with it.
You are correct, but it is wrong.
Basura_Grande
10-07-2015, 02:19 PM
had a champion fiend troll hit my 159 PRR tempest for over 800. This would have one shot many toons, including my wizard.
It's not often, but the one shotting still happens
Yeah there are no fantasy tropes that justify MRR or anything
http://cinemademerde.com/sites/default/files/styles/full_movie_image/public/movie_image/Dragonslayer-fire_0.gif
erm how'd that Dragonslayer shot get there.. As you can see his shield is clearly doubling his MRR value, and his armor is protecting from the secondary flames licking past :) Of course much like MRR he's still not getting anywhere near the benefit of an Evasion toon simply jumping out of the way and taking no heat at all.
What? This is at least as relevant to a D&D discussion as trying to cite historical armor.
Evasion especially improved evasion which lets you get lazy with your reflex save to some degree, are still much much better than MRR, having done 40 or more mods on multiple characters with and without evasion I felt the difference starkly. In fact my Staff Monk with 900hps survives better in their than Sword and Board builds with 1200hps well as long as I don't count the blind tiling part, actually even then abundant step is nice for tiling.
Whats more armor in this game isn't by any means all metal, in fact the best armor IMO is Dragon scale, which any fictional way you look at it should be very resilient to elements.
I also get the impression that you think medieval knights were running around with metal strapped directly to their naked bodies. Most armor was hard boiled cow hide and padding to which metal was attached. Not exactly thermally or electrically conductive, and the metal is often shiny, while metal is conductive it is also good at reflecting some energy away dissipating some while the cow hide and padding behind it interrupts the thermal transfer (see survival blanket example hint: the reflective surface faces one direction when cold out, the other direction when hot out). Then considering that and the fact that every piece of metal armor anyone is wearing in this game is magically enchanted I don't see much reason to assume they made it poorly or with direct conductivity to the body. I believe you're making up an assumption that fits the argument you want to support even if the assumption is bad.
the argument is sound. the armor was shaped the way it was by reducing the integrity of the material by heating it using REGULAR FIRE, then restoring that integrity by cooling it back to a normal temperature. Gee, I wonder what magical fire would do to one of these thing, cast by say...oh I don't know, a caster that is 3x your level? You think a leather under layer is going to stop magical fire? :p Also: reduction in metal integrity, and increased corrosion due to electrical shock is well documented. Acid should be eating away at those leather straps that which holds the entire contraption together. Reduction in integrity of steel due to acid corrosion (direct contact) is also well documented, as is reduction in integrity due to resonating audio wave propagation - this one is actually fairly recent.
I think the assumptions are not on my part here. If you want to use the "because its magic" excuse well......D&D had rules for that too. Each item worn has its own HP, and any time someone failed a save by rolling a 1, the items had to make a save too, and take damage if it failed. If damage taken exceeded item HP, and the item was magical, you got to roll on a nifty little chart to see what the consequences were of that magic unraveling while you were wearing the item. it was even more hilarious when it was a magical container that failed the save and took too much damage, dumping other items, both magical and mundane, into the prime material plane again, in some cases depending on the circumstances having to make their own saves......
In short, the MRR argument is invalid both in the reality example, and in D&D lore example.
As far as game design/balance is concerned, its unbalanced to give magical protection of that degree to every single heavy armor wearer. So MRR is invalid by degree game balance wise as well. Steee-rike 3.
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