Eliminate Epic Commoner levels...

[Certon]

Levels 21-30 Commoner levels should be eliminated and replaced with class levels, but that these class levels can never exceed level 20. Also, mind you, these levels do not give Enhancement Points but DO give the standard number of skill points for the class level, to be spent as usual.

This would create interesting mixes with level cap at 30, like a 20/10 Wizard/monk Pale Henshin Mystic, 15/15 Rogue/Artificer Mechanic/Battle Engineer(a CRAZY great xbow build), 20/10 Barbarian/Fighter Frenzied Berserker/Kensai. It would add even more diversity to class builds and enrich the Epic Levels beyond anything this game has ever seen.

It would also strip the boring levels 22-23 and 25 out of the mix.

Is this a good idea? What combinations could you see becoming very useful with the extra levels tacked on?

Is this a bad idea?

Give me your thoughts on this. Share with me a build idea or two... :)

[FranOhmsford]

Levels 21-30 Commoner levels should be eliminated and replaced with class levels, but that these class levels can never exceed level 20.

Why the penalty to Pure Builds? Why can't I go 28 Pure Paladin?

I find it really annoying that when listing my Past Lives I have to list 12 Rogue Mech / 8 Arti / 8 Epic {I'd much rather list 16 Rogue Mech / 12 Arti}. In fact often I don't even bother listing the Epic levels at all {as if they simply don't count!}.


I'm going to ask again: Why is it ok to be 20 Paladin / 8 Fighter but NOT 28 Paladin?

[Enoach]

When Epic levels were first being discussed I admit that I did imagine the ability to choose a class be it the same class or a compatible class.

Now this would allow for many new build options, but at the same time would potentially open up Capstones to splash builds as well.

So while I think it would be cool to add some fighter levels and maybe some monk levels to my 20 Paladin, in hindsight I'm not so sure it would be good for the game. Especially with having Epic Destinies.

But I sure would not mind someone coming up with a good implementation that would change my mind.

[FranOhmsford]

When Epic levels were first being discussed I admit that I did imagine the ability to choose a class be it the same class or a compatible class.

Now this would allow for many new build options, but at the same time would potentially open up Capstones to splash builds as well.

So while I think it would be cool to add some fighter levels and maybe some monk levels to my 20 Paladin, in hindsight I'm not so sure it would be good for the game. Especially with having Epic Destinies.

But I sure would not mind someone coming up with a good implementation that would change my mind.

1) Unless we get more AP along with the new levels the Devs could simply lock Enhancement Trees at the moment you take Lvl 20 {Yes this would hurt Elf AA but that tree is broken anyway!}.

2) Even if they do add more AP the Devs could insist that a Capstone HAS to be taken at Lvl 20 {before taking Lvl 21}.

3) Honestly though - We're not really worrying about 18/2 builds here are we? We're worrying about 12/6/2 and similar builds becoming 20/6/2 etc.?
Isn't it more likely that the 12/6/2 would become 12/10/6, 13/9/6 or something similar AND not have any sort of Capstone?

Also: Adding 8-10 more CLASS levels to the game would possibly make Caster Multiclasses actually viable!
Think 18 Cleric/12 Paladin Battle Cleric?
How about 18 Wizard/12 Fighter Bladesinger?
Or 21 Wizard/9 Rogue Trapper extraordinaire?

Finally: Is the 20 Capstone worth that much in the first place? What if a 30 Capstone was added for Pure Builds that blew the 20 Cap out of the water?

[Enoach]

1) Unless we get more AP along with the new levels the Devs could simply lock Enhancement Trees at the moment you take Lvl 20 {Yes this would hurt Elf AA but that tree is broken anyway!}.

2) Even if they do add more AP the Devs could insist that a Capstone HAS to be taken at Lvl 20 {before taking Lvl 21}.

3) Honestly though - We're not really worrying about 18/2 builds here are we? We're worrying about 12/6/2 and similar builds becoming 20/6/2 etc.?
Isn't it more likely that the 12/6/2 would become 12/10/6, 13/9/6 or something similar AND not have any sort of Capstone?

Also: Adding 8-10 more CLASS levels to the game would possibly make Caster Multiclasses actually viable!
Think 18 Cleric/12 Paladin Battle Cleric?
How about 18 Wizard/12 Fighter Bladesinger?
Or 21 Wizard/9 Rogue Trapper extraordinaire?

Finally: Is the 20 Capstone worth that much in the first place? What if a 30 Capstone was added for Pure Builds that blew the 20 Cap out of the water?

We will have to disagree that the Elf Racial AA tree is broken. And an Elf should be able to utilize the full capacity of this tree. Now I wouldn't mind if unlocking it was a little cheaper but I have a 12/8 Fighter/Wizard EK/AA that I enjoy playing. To me the biggest issue is not having the other racial trees implemented.

My concern was that the capstone was suppose to be the bonus for not multi-classing. The balance per se. As for value of the capstone, that really depends on the build. Pure casters gain with their caster attributes, I know I find the paladin defender capstone invaluable. But you can't lump them all together and say capstones are all worthless.

Again if someone comes up with a good system on how to utilize class levels instead of epic commoner levels I'm all ears. Right now with how the system is implemented I think Turbine chose the right direction to not step on the existing plans they had for the Enhancement trees and Epic Destinies as well as avoid the additional AP conundrum that would have come with more class levels.

[Certon]

Why the penalty to Pure Builds? Why can't I go 28 Pure Paladin?

I find it really annoying that when listing my Past Lives I have to list 12 Rogue Mech / 8 Arti / 8 Epic {I'd much rather list 16 Rogue Mech / 12 Arti}. In fact often I don't even bother listing the Epic levels at all {as if they simply don't count!}.


I'm going to ask again: Why is it ok to be 20 Paladin / 8 Fighter but NOT 28 Paladin?

The reason I suggested no advancement beyond 20 class levels is because with more than 20 levels in a class, they'd have to work out spell progression tables beyond 20, fighter feat allocation beyond 20, and saves beyond 20, among other things. With the limit set at 20, they could just use what they've made already. It would be ridiculously easy to implement.

But you are correct, allowing players to advance to 30 in a class would be very cool, and I would like to see that. Maybe they COULD have Enhancement Points go up to 120, add 2 more tiers of powers in the enhancements trees, and have the capstones set at 60 instead of 40. This would set the bar higher for capstones, but also insure that only one capstone could be taken...

...But it would cause inflation of power. I suppose it doesn't matter at this point with the game's aging structure, but it is something to consider.

[Certon]

When Epic levels were first being discussed I admit that I did imagine the ability to choose a class be it the same class or a compatible class.

Now this would allow for many new build options, but at the same time would potentially open up Capstones to splash builds as well.

So while I think it would be cool to add some fighter levels and maybe some monk levels to my 20 Paladin, in hindsight I'm not so sure it would be good for the game. Especially with having Epic Destinies.

But I sure would not mind someone coming up with a good implementation that would change my mind.

What you could do is give 120 Enhancement Points max (at level 30) and make a new capstone for level 30 pure toons that is EPIC in nature. Rename the other capstone ability to a 'milestone' ability (for 20 levels in a class) and you're set.

[PsychoBlonde]

When Epic levels were first being discussed I admit that I did imagine the ability to choose a class be it the same class or a compatible class.

Now this would allow for many new build options, but at the same time would potentially open up Capstones to splash builds as well.

So while I think it would be cool to add some fighter levels and maybe some monk levels to my 20 Paladin, in hindsight I'm not so sure it would be good for the game. Especially with having Epic Destinies.

But I sure would not mind someone coming up with a good implementation that would change my mind.

Dingdingding! We have a winner!

There's a reason why the epic levels are the way that they are, and that's because they were implemented on top of an already-existing system with a certain setup that would become fantastically broken should you be able to take class levels past level 20. And then the johnnie-come-latelies complain that it makes no sense. Of course it doesn't make sense if you don't understand how this game has developed over the years. :P Radically changing what came before isn't always an option. A "good implementation" of this idea would mean:

Eliminating "capstone" enhancements--and probably all the "Core" enhancements, too, as they're predicated on a 20 levels max system where you're NOT supposed to be able to get, say, 2 level 12 cores from different classes simultaneously.

Eliminating epic destinies. (They replace the class abilities you would have gotten for those epic levels.)

Here's the funny thing . . . epic levels in DDO actually do work very similarly to how they were designed in the Epic Handbook. You CAN take alternate class levels past level 20 in the Original Style Epic . . . but you don't get your epic class bonus feats. (nor do your "standard abilities" from those classes progress). It was spectacularly complicated and implementing it in the game would probably have been an enormous pain in the ass. Fighters in particular get a new feat for just about every single epic level. But EVERYONE gets the same saving throw bonuses and base attack bonuses past 20 in the Epic Handbook.

I like destinies better--the offer (almost) everything you could get from the actual Epic Handbook-style progression AND some other interesting stuff to boot. And it enabled them to keep the existing systems functioning as is. Remember also that the epic destinies came out BEFORE the changes to enhancements. They could have changed the enhancements retroactively to allow for class levels past 20, but I just don't think they had the manpower to do anything that drastic. Heck, they're STILL working on finishing up stuff with the enhancements that they didn't have the time to do, what, nearly two and a half years ago, now? We're still missing third trees for several classes. Elves are still the only race with their own bonus tree. I don't think another radical restructure is gonna fly.