Acquiring Past Lives at Level Cap [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

morkahn82

09-11-2015, 04:27 AM

We all know that there is less incentive for players to remain at cap. You simply can not progress your character after you got all your destinies without tr'ing. People are also keen on making raid completions persistent through tr, so that they can go for 20th list while perma-tring. A lot is done for the perma-tr community, time to please the stay-at-cap community.

What about spending a tr-heart, and getting a buffer of the amount of xp which would be needed to get back to lvl 20 or epic from 20-28 or iconic 15-28, when you fill the buffer (through gaining xp on level cap) you get the past life. This is of course a little naive, more thought has to go into it. But the idea is clear. Progress your character at level cap!

I do not especially know if I even myself like the idea, but I think it is a great counterpoint to all that perma-tr pleasing and it is time to please the stay-at-cap community.

Deadlock

09-11-2015, 05:45 AM

I do not especially know if I even myself like the idea

I have no such doubts. This is a terrible idea.

Gremmlynn

09-11-2015, 05:52 AM

I like it.

It's the sort of option I wish had been added when TRing first came out. Even more so now with the more generic epic TR.

Ive never really been a fan of the whole drop back and repeat to progress concept.

Qhualor

09-11-2015, 05:52 AM

this suggestion makes as much sense as raid completion counts persisting through a TR.

SirValentine

09-11-2015, 05:53 AM

I've always felt the reward for being at level cap is...being at level cap. You get to actually USE all those shiny high-level abilities & gear.

Gremmlynn

09-11-2015, 06:04 AM

I've always felt the reward for being at level cap is...being at level cap. You get to actually USE all those shiny high-level abilities & gear.For what though? That's the issue I see. The game, more or less, penalizes players for doing so by making any sort of progress predicated on playing without those things.

mikarddo

09-11-2015, 06:08 AM

Adding a way to acquire Epic PL while at cap would most definitely be good. Make it take 5 times longer than doing so the normal way so its much slower but give the option to do so.

I wont hold my breath for that to happen though. Many players are entrenched in the idea that progress can *only* come from replaying the same levels and well, there is no financial reason for Turbine to make this change.

walkin_dude

09-11-2015, 06:08 AM

this suggestion makes as much sense as raid completion counts persisting through a TR.

Not to me. I could actually craft an argument to justify raid completion persistence. The idea in the OP is a much more blatant example of someone wanting to eat his cake and have it, too.

Qhualor

09-11-2015, 06:11 AM

morkahn82

09-11-2015, 06:31 AM

Not to me. I could actually craft an argument to justify raid completion persistence. The idea in the OP is a much more blatant example of someone wanting to eat his cake and have it, too.

I deduced from reading through the forums it is the month of exaggerated requests and I wanted to contribute.

Asking for persistent raid completions is just the same, wanting both to tr AND keeping completions, like staying at cap AND progressing character. Same story. Why shouldn't I also ask for convenience changes that are in no way justified but comfortable if others do it with that passion?

walkin_dude

09-11-2015, 06:36 AM

I deduced from reading through the forums it is the month of exaggerated requests and I wanted to contribute.

Asking for persistent raid completions is just the same, wanting both to tr AND keeping completions, like staying at cap AND progressing character. Same story.

I don't think persistent raid completions is a good idea, it just seems less outlandish than gaining past lives while staying at level cap. :)

Dragavon

09-11-2015, 06:43 AM

People always want more for less.

If you want those past lives, do the job to earn them.

They should not come free like this, or any other way people have suggested in the past.

peng

09-11-2015, 06:44 AM

How about instead of farming past lives indefinitely at cap, allow an etr to gain up to 1 epic past life per sphere, as long as that sphere has.maxed karma. You would still need to farm 6 million karma per sphere, but you could do most of that at cap.

mikarddo

09-11-2015, 06:47 AM

I already have 25 epic past lives (and no epic ottos were hurt in the process) - but I still think it would be better for the game if you could either
- do an epic PL the way you do it now OR
- accumulate 30mill xp in the same sphere and get an epic PL without dropping back to level 20.

There is zero doubt that its much faster to do it the current way but giving an option for those that prefer to stay at cap would be good imho. It sure would not be "for free" in any way.

dunklezhan

09-11-2015, 06:58 AM

I deduced from reading through the forums it is the month of exaggerated requests and I wanted to contribute.Asking for persistent raid completions is just the same, wanting both to tr AND keeping completions, like staying at cap AND progressing character. Same story. Why shouldn't I also ask for convenience changes that are in no way justified but comfortable if others do it with that passion?Because if you *knowingly* do that, you're basically trolling. That's why.

morkahn82

09-11-2015, 07:02 AM

Because if you *knowingly* do that, you're basically trolling. That's why.

Not if I support the proposed change, right?

Gremmlynn

09-11-2015, 07:06 AM

People always want more for less.

If you want those past lives, do the job to earn them.

They should not come free like this, or any other way people have suggested in the past.How is earning them at one level any freer than earning them at another if that's what one wants to do in a game they choose to pay to play? Here it is, I want to play with what I have earned on my character to earn more on that character. That's something I'm much more willing to pay to be able to do. How is that somehow more wrong than being told I have to re-level to do so? Hell how isn't DDO, itself, an anomaly due to the illogical and non-intuitive way it handles progression.

To me, the whole process seems a way for Turbine to add to the game without actually having to add to the game. I've just never acquired much of a taste for that particular kool-aid.

bartharok

09-11-2015, 07:58 AM

dunklezhan

09-11-2015, 08:04 AM

Not if I support the proposed change, right?Hard to imagine how you could claim that if you have already stated you know it has 'no justification'. But hey - I don't care either way about this idea since I don't spend any time at cap, suggest whatever you like, make no odds to me. You just asked why you shouldn't if other people are. Normally when someone asks that sort of question I go straight to 'if everyone jumped off a bridge...' or, more often 'insert latest boy/girl band sensation] is the reason why you shouldn't do what everyone else is doing', but I thought maybe I'd provide a reason more specific to the environment for a change.

Coyopa

09-11-2015, 08:40 AM

Sarzor

09-11-2015, 08:48 AM

I have no such doubts. This is a terrible idea.

This.

Dragavon

09-11-2015, 10:26 AM

Angelic-council

09-11-2015, 04:02 PM

I have no such doubts. This is a terrible idea.

Yup, it's terrible. This basically allows you to farm past lifes much faster and easier.

I've always felt the reward for being at level cap is...being at level cap. You get to actually USE all those shiny high-level abilities & gear.

Yeah, exactly.

For what though? That's the issue I see. The game, more or less, penalizes players for doing so by making any sort of progress predicated on playing without those things.

That's what you should be asking to OP. TR is just a preparation (optional) it's not an end game. We don't need any changes to TR system, especially this one, that makes it much easier to farm. Because what is the point then, many of us worked very hard to acquire those past lifes then this idea strikes in.

What we should be talking about is how to improve the game at cap outside of the EXP farming. Because staying at cap indicates that your preparation is ready, now, you want to look for a challenge and have fun. That's the end game. It will be best for us if we use "level cap" more with respect. And not for solution to achieve something faster, short cut.

Grailhawk

09-11-2015, 04:13 PM

I don't think past lives should be acquired at endgame. But some kind of exp grind for endgame players might be a useful addition.

Enoach

09-11-2015, 04:21 PM

While I understand the draw of keeping raid completions through a TR, I'm not 100% for adding that into the game. To me the problem has always been how do you entice people to stay at a particular level range longer.

However, earning XP at CAP to use later to me seems like a very dangerous road to travel. Which I believe is one of the reason saga rewards don't give you an XP stone.

1. Make the XP requirement such that it takes longer to make it to the maximum level
...This may occur with level cap going to 30. But still does not give players a good reason to stay at cap, only delay's the ER/TR process

2. Create a crafting system that requires higher levels to achieve ingredients
...The problem with this type of system is it becomes exclusionary as either you have to make the quest require a minimum level to enter or make the quest so difficult that would cause it not to be completed by some groups and that would be worse then not having anything to do, it would be having something that can't be done available (ability/skill may very)

3. Create an in depth End Game. One that is filled with diverse Raid and Quests. The Drop rates should be reasonable and not to excessive on either side. But no matter what a player should be given an option of the loot on their 20th completion.

At one point people stopped TR'ng to spend time earning Shards/Seals/Scrolls because while not all the gear was great, enough of it was good for the ML20. With the expansion Epic random gear out preformed and was easier to get so it meant less reason to run many quests/series in DDO.

Xenich

09-11-2015, 04:44 PM

Today you have to choose, either stay at cap and get raid completions and materials, or abandon that and reincarnate for past life feats for more powerful characters.

I think it should stay that way. We should not be able to get everything at once for less effort. This game has become easy enough.

Nah, there should be a choice. One of them should be that you log into the game and push a button and instantly win! Remember, I play the game for my fun ya know! /sarc

Krell

09-11-2015, 04:56 PM

Angelic-council

09-11-2015, 05:01 PM

I don't think past lives should be acquired at endgame. But some kind of exp grind for endgame players might be a useful addition.

Oh yeah? Interesting, like what for example and why.

BoBoDaClown

09-11-2015, 05:51 PM

I've always liked this idea.

I have often felt irritated with the whole reincarnation process.

I never viewed the earning lives at cap idea as an easy way to get your epic pastlives - it should be the harder way. Make the xp needed much much much higher, so it just gives the option to stay at cap if you want it. The easier way will be to continue to do your reincarnations. To be fair, I have always thought of this in terms of epic reincarnations, not heroic/iconic. Keeping it to epics wouldn't cost turbine too much money anyway - those people who are in such a rush that they would buy a heart, probably aren't going to be the type that will stick around at cap to earn the xp.

IronClan

09-11-2015, 06:19 PM

I've always felt the reward for being at level cap is...being at level cap. You get to actually USE all those shiny high-level abilities & gear.

As you well know the people who enjoy playing at cap "with all the toys" (and just as importantly with friends they like to run with who aren't often that easy to run with when everyones at different levels on the TR train) don't feel the game has given us very much to do there, due to a series of disastrous management choices since MOTU.

Proposals like the OP's stem from the underlying problem of Turbine management/design team more or less intentionally telling us to shove off and find something else to do if we don't enjoy starting over at low level.

Grailhawk

09-11-2015, 06:39 PM

Oh yeah? Interesting, like what for example and why.

I don't really have an idea for the what, they attempted something like what I would come up with with the ED grind (though I wouldn't have made you change your destiny or need to rework your build each time you go for something) but they made it too good so every one fills obligated to grind out all ED's for twists.

The why is simply because the game needs more things to do at endgame Raid Timer Bypass have killed long term raiding and gear acquisition is only interesting until you get what you need, some kind of get 10 Mil exp and trade it for 1 Melee/Ranged/Spell Power might add something worth doing at endgame, but again I don't really have an idea.

blerkington

09-11-2015, 07:30 PM

Hi,

I would have liked to see some method for banking ED xp. Unfortunately, the model we have now enforces a deliberately unpleasant grind and the solutions are either not to participate, bow down and get it done, or pay for an item which lets you bypass it.

As long as we have a store item to bypass this grind which sells well, I can't see anything about the current set-up changing. I'm sure the sale of Otto's boxes and xp potions would slump if people trying to optimise their characters didn't have to spend all that time running in off destinies.

More methods of developing our characters at cap would be nice, though we do have farming mysterious remnants for chrisms for that. Something else that allowed a small, slow increase in power or versatility which would also encourage people to rerun lower level epic content and raids would be ideal.

Thanks.

Knight_slayer

09-11-2015, 07:45 PM

Angelic-council

09-11-2015, 08:37 PM

I don't really have an idea for the what, they attempted something like what I would come up with with the ED grind (though I wouldn't have made you change your destiny or need to rework your build each time you go for something) but they made it too good so every one fills obligated to grind out all ED's for twists.

The why is simply because the game needs more things to do at endgame Raid Timer Bypass have killed long term raiding and gear acquisition is only interesting until you get what you need, some kind of get 10 Mil exp and trade it for 1 Melee/Ranged/Spell Power might add something worth doing at endgame, but again I don't really have an idea.

Thanks for sharing.

Grailhawk, interesting thought you got there. But you see, it's a difficult subject. I always say this (not only me), but if turbine release another EXP farming content, just like EDs and PLs, then set it at cap, would it be really effective?. Can you imagine yourself repeatedly farming 10 million EXP for small boost in character power. I'm sure I will. But then again, it's no differ than current state of the game.

More EXP at cap means, more dailies to run. Would that motivate you?

Vellrad

09-11-2015, 08:44 PM

The why is simply because the game needs more things to do at endgame Raid Timer Bypass have killed long term raiding and gear acquisition is only interesting until you get what you need, some kind of get 10 Mil exp and trade it for 1 Melee/Ranged/Spell Power might add something worth doing at endgame, but again I don't really have an idea.

So, end game with bypasses:
Spend 2 hours doing 20 runs of new raid when its released.
vs endgame without:
Spend 10 minutes doing new raid, then log out and come back in 3 days, if you still remember what DDO is.

Yeah, bypases are so evil.

Terrible raid desing kills raiding, not bypasses.

Angelic-council

09-11-2015, 08:55 PM

deleted.

Qhualor

09-11-2015, 09:01 PM

So, end game with bypasses:
Spend 2 hours doing 20 runs of new raid when its released.
vs endgame without:
Spend 10 minutes doing new raid, then log out and come back in 3 days, if you still remember what DDO is.

Yeah, bypases are so evil.

Terrible raid desing kills raiding, not bypasses.

if there is nothing else for you to do in the game besides raid, than yeah, you wouldn't be a target audience to please. longevity of raids makes a player base happier, not being done with a raid within a month and waiting around trying to fill a group for those still looking for raid loot. the only raid that has gotten any real heat with bad design is CITW because of the sp draining, but it was still regularly run up until raiders boxes.

Grailhawk

09-11-2015, 09:05 PM

Thanks for sharing.

Grailhawk, interesting thought you got there. But you see, it's a difficult subject. I always say this (not only me), but if turbine release another EXP farming content, just like EDs and PLs, then set it at cap, would it be really effective?. Can you imagine yourself repeatedly farming 10 million EXP for small boost in character power. I'm sure I will. But then again, it's no differ than current state of the game.

More EXP at cap means, more dailies to run. Would that motivate you?

Like I said it might be useful depends on what gets implemented.

So, end game with bypasses:
Spend 2 hours doing 20 runs of new raid when its released.
vs endgame without:
Spend 10 minutes doing new raid, then log out and come back in 3 days, if you still remember what DDO is.

Yeah, bypases are so evil.

Terrible raid desing kills raiding, not bypasses.

That was not my experience before bypass existed, I easily played 4hr a day doing nothing but old epics and raids in those days for months at a time only TR when I felt like a change of pace.

blackdoguk

09-11-2015, 11:43 PM

IronClan

09-11-2015, 11:53 PM

I'd love to make at cap xp count for something - progression is a good thing and incentive to play is what keeps people logging in. I'd probably dust off more of my characters knowing that I could keep them at cap and work towards the many many past lives they are missing, even if that meant losing out on a portion of the xp (see this (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/463217-Off-Destiny-Karma-Leveling/) thread for more on the topic, which was met with a mostly favourable reception.) Have to say I'd prefer to see the adoption of that sort of system over the proposed one OP, though I think any change to colossal amount of xp which counts for nothing would be a welcome one.

indeed well said... anything is better than nothing. I would prefer the idea in post #7 of that thread ;) over the OP's, but the OP clearly is spit balling and not so much married to their implementation as wanting SOMETHING to do at cap.

All the "I hate people who play at cap and want them to go away" noise making aside I really think it's time for Turbine to throw end gamers a bone... and some sort of slow progression system that doesn't require burning it all down to lvl 1 again, or being in unfun off destinies for 79,000,000 XP would be my preference.

blackdoguk

09-12-2015, 12:32 AM

I would prefer the idea in post #7 of that thread ;) over the OP's, but the OP clearly is spit balling and not so much married to their implementation as wanting SOMETHING to do at cap.

Yup, lot of wisdom in that post :)

Silverleafeon

09-12-2015, 01:05 AM

I would to see:

Demi-God (insert cool name here) XP overflow system.
This only gains xp when a player would not be able to apply it to leveling up
(or EDs).
Each level gained costs millions, with very minor benefits
{By minor, I mean far less than PLs.}

Sentient Weapons XP benefit system.
Must be equipped to gain xp, requires 10+ million to fully develop.

BigErkyKid

09-12-2015, 01:05 AM

How is earning them at one level any freer than earning them at another if that's what one wants to do in a game they choose to pay to play? Here it is, I want to play with what I have earned on my character to earn more on that character. That's something I'm much more willing to pay to be able to do. How is that somehow more wrong than being told I have to re-level to do so? Hell how isn't DDO, itself, an anomaly due to the illogical and non-intuitive way it handles progression.

To me, the whole process seems a way for Turbine to add to the game without actually having to add to the game. I've just never acquired much of a taste for that particular kool-aid.

Because that is precisely what it is. There is some value in having the option to replay the game from a different perspective without feeling you are wasting your time in terms of progression. However, making it the only way to make progress is basically not catering to end gamers. It is Not the only way, but certainly the most obvious one and perhaps even powerful.

The reason why we don't see equivalent or at least similar ways to progress at cap so that you have two attractive options is because it is cheaper to create s grind than to make an engaging and well crafted end game.

Deadlock

09-12-2015, 03:24 AM

Spend 2 hours doing 20 runs of new raid when its released.

If your only reason to login is for 2 hours every Update to run a new raid to death so you can then logout again then I would suggest you have bigger problems with the game. Perhaps a longer break would help with the negativity towards the game or maybe it's just time for you to do something else?

Either way, for those of us who still enjoy the game I consider bypasses in their current form to be part of the problem with raid longevity.

bartharok

09-12-2015, 03:35 AM

Just wondering, if your toon progresses at cap, are you actually at cap. I mean progress other than gear.

Deadlock

09-12-2015, 03:43 AM

All the "I hate people who play at cap and want them to go away" noise making aside I really think it's time for Turbine to throw end gamers a bone.

We must be reading different threads if this is your interpretation of what people who disagree with the OP's proposal are saying.

The lack of things to do at cap is one issue but gaining XP shouldn't be part of it. Adding new high level content with acceptable drop rates that can't be bypassed to death on day one would be a better solution. With the level cap rising to 30, the Production team then have an opportunity to add more "final cap" content. Make the new Reaper difficulty only accessible at cap would be another idea. But allowing you to do all of this while still banking XP for your next life is bad design. Why should we pander to people who want to gain past lives while working on something completely different?

It's not as if past lives are difficult to acquire through normal game play. We don't need to add another bypass system for people who just can't be bothered to play heroic content.

Deadlock

09-12-2015, 04:03 AM

The reason why we don't see equivalent or at least similar ways to progress at cap so that you have two attractive options is because it is cheaper to create s grind than to make an engaging and well crafted end game.

Think about what you're saying here. You don't want to TR and play another build through heroic content because it's grind but you want to stay at cap and repeat a smaller subset of Epic quests over and over. But that's not grind.

When you then ask someone why they would want to do one over the other the honest answer often turns out to be "because I can get much more XP and Epic saga rewards doing it one way". The principle of the whole thing is flawed.

I'm all for there being things to do at cap but giving people less reason to reincarnate isn't one of them. The whole reincarnation concept was genius when it was first introduced and fits perfectly with a game which offers such diverse build options as DDO. I would venture that it's probably one of the major reasons why DDO has had such longevity for a lot of us. There is no good reason to add other ways to acquire past lives when we have a perfectly fine mechanic for doing it already in place

EDIT: Just for clarity, I'm not suggesting that levelling in Epics is fine. The lack of any choices when talking to an Epic trainer on a level where you just click Next then Finish is terrible. The lack of any sense of progression that we get with Heroic Enhancements mid-level is for me another negative. Losing your first time XP bonus running an Epic quest you had previously completed on Heroic makes no sense especially when the storyline has advanced and these are essentially new quests in a familiar environment - so much so that I end up skipping quests on Heroic that I will be running on Epic.

Epic levelling is nowhere near perfect but banking XP to bypass it isn't the right solution.

morkahn82

09-12-2015, 05:00 AM

I am also thinking of some sort of progressing at lvl cap, like some veteran levels which can only be acquired with very slow pace. But once implemented people will cry that it is too hard to acquire these, turbine will implemented some store bypass and what first is an advantage to keep players busy is just another p2cheat option and players again will cry about the game to easy when they bypassed this.

The problem is once being 28 I am just feeling my character does not progess, I feel the strong urge to tr and not wasting my time at cap.

Vellrad

09-12-2015, 06:29 AM

if there is nothing else for you to do in the game besides raid, than yeah, you wouldn't be a target audience to please. longevity of raids makes a player base happier, not being done with a raid within a month and waiting around trying to fill a group for those still looking for raid loot. the only raid that has gotten any real heat with bad design is CITW because of the sp draining, but it was still regularly run up until raiders boxes.

Like I said it might be useful depends on what gets implemented.

That was not my experience before bypass existed, I easily played 4hr a day doing nothing but old epics and raids in those days for months at a time only TR when I felt like a change of pace.

Web was terrbile because of mana drain, fot, mod and fire are terrible because of duration.
The only good raid they released after epic level is deathwyrm, because you can't bypass fest it.
And what is there to do beside raids at cap? Extremally easy EEs you already did while leveling, for gear that either sucks, or is given to you after 2nd or 3rd chain run?

blackdoguk

09-12-2015, 07:24 AM

It's not as if past lives are difficult to acquire through normal game play. We don't need to add another bypass system for people who just can't be bothered to play heroic content.

Difficult? Perhaps not. Fun and rewarding? Heroic PLs yes, epic off destiny levelling is anything but.

Deadlock

09-12-2015, 07:41 AM

Difficult? Perhaps not. Fun and rewarding? Heroic PLs yes, epic off destiny levelling is anything but.

Then why would you choose to do it? Off destiny levelling is an invention of the playerbase. There's absolutely no need to do it. But still some people do and then complain it's awful.

Qhualor

09-12-2015, 07:42 AM

Web was terrbile because of mana drain, fot, mod and fire are terrible because of duration.
The only good raid they released after epic level is deathwyrm, because you can't bypass fest it.
And what is there to do beside raids at cap? Extremally easy EEs you already did while leveling, for gear that either sucks, or is given to you after 2nd or 3rd chain run?

I remember Shroud, VOD, Hound and TOD that could take 30 minutes to an hour. from what I hear, in the early days it was more than an hour. with those kinds of complaints, maybe that's why raids like MOD and DoJ can be completed in short time.

I don't necessarily blame the players for having no end game quests to run after they get their loot and not challenged by them. some of the loot is fairly easy to get and its more common now to see solo/shortman groups running EE content than it was when cap was 20. however, without raid timer bypass, no chest re-rolls, same loot isn't found on normal as elite, a way similar to s/s/s crafting system to upgrade gear and beef up epics more similar to the way old epics used to be than there would be more to do. Turbine needs to be a little tougher on the players if they hope to have any sort of longevity in this game. otherwise, they can continue to do what they have been doing and after a month new content is released, players like you complain there is nothing to do, but see nothing wrong with shortcutting the game to get what they want.

Qhualor

09-12-2015, 07:53 AM

Then why would you choose to do it? Off destiny levelling is an invention of the playerbase. There's absolutely no need to do it. But still some people do and then complain it's awful.

because it is awful. its the worst grind in DDO, imo. if you want the best rewards out of destinies, than you

TR into a class that would benefit best from those off destinies. for me, I only like playing melees and I go after those past lives that I feel are worth it. that means im playing barbarian in Magister. painful!

don't TR and suck it up. there are players that don't TR or only do a few or something to that affect.

do it the slow way and use saga xp so you can play the class you want.

don't do it and you have no twists thereby not taking advantage of improving your character.

none of these choices are appealing. destinies and the way the system is designed is not player invention. it is Turbine invention to keep players busy doing something and to make some money.

blackdoguk

09-12-2015, 08:03 AM

Then why would you choose to do it? Off destiny levelling is an invention of the playerbase. There's absolutely no need to do it. But still some people do and then complain it's awful.

The same reason you did - the game is intrinsically progression based. Unlike everything pre motu however, class based progression is now tied to tens of millions of xp in opposing roles. Unlike before where (as I do) if somebody wanted to make a melee or caster toon then they could do a lot of those type of lives, now for me to have a high functioning barbarian then I should either:

make peace with running him handicapped, join your group and be knowingly carried
make peace with tring him into something I didn't really want in the first place so I can go go back to barb
make peace with sitting behind you in terms of ability and potential

None of these solutions seems preferable to me.

Don't read this as a matter of entitlement, way back in 2011 I decided that I didn't need completionist feats, but what I thought reasonable then should hold now: characters who wan't to beat up/blow stuff should be able to play those sort of roles and not have to change the ethos of their characters to improve.

I may not agree with OP but a system whereby players are able to gain karma, that they have justly earned by completing quests, is sorely needed. You DM folk IRL, so why wouldn't you grant them xp at the end of a session? I just don't see a need for all that wasted xp, especially when it could be used to encourage people to log in and play the game. Something like that would indeed incentivise more tring/levelling instead of discouraging.

Finally I'm not sure I entirely agree that it's a creation of the playerbase, any more than levelling one's toon was ever an invention on our part.

Ellihor

09-12-2015, 08:35 AM

I love the idea. We should be a ble to progress the character without the need to "unprogress". This would help a lot the endgame situation. It's extremly sad the situation were seeing these days. For example, after doing 80 MoDs on my main, I never used the items for more than one quest per life, and now I am not ever going to use most of them because there's new best in slot. This sucks. Personally I belive the Epic Reincarnation should reset only your karma. To balance that could just give a 50% xp penality if you are capped. The iconic and heroic TRs are fine.

For me at leat, end game should be about progression and getting gear. Farming xp is terrible, and going backwards is extremly boring. That is one of the great reasons why the game shined before MotU: most people would TR only to change the build, not to get past lifes.

Ellihor

09-12-2015, 08:42 AM

I am also thinking of some sort of progressing at lvl cap, like some veteran levels which can only be acquired with very slow pace.

No please. We don't need more inherent bonuses that you get for being an old player. Adding epic reincarnation was a huge mistake already.

noinfo

09-12-2015, 08:43 AM

People always want more for less.

If you want those past lives, do the job to earn them.

They should not come free like this, or any other way people have suggested in the past.

I always love hearing this sort of argument:

Earning the epic past life by playing level 20 to 28 because for some reason its more valid than playing the same amount of time in someone's preferred level space of 28.

The problem is trying to fit all playstyles in. Really when dealing with epic they shouldn't have had past lives but had just cumulative bonuses accruing based on earned xp. if they wanted to be nasty have the base levels reset or disappear on TR, rewarding those only staying at cap. But they didn't. There is nothing more holy about TR or ETR over people wanting progression at end game. It certainly isn't harder, for many it certainly isn't more fun and in no way does it magically mean more because you are playing at those levels. IMO TR is the most immersive breaking thing in game and if I never had to do it and was still able to progress in some other way I certainly would. However unlike those who feel that everyone must run through all the lives because that's the way it should be done I don't feel the need to try and tell people that the game should not reward their favoured playstyles.

Put it this way, why should your triple diversified TR that has run whatever many million xp be anywhere near as good as my toon that has stayed at cap and would have earned more xp in its class?

noinfo

09-12-2015, 08:48 AM

because it is awful. its the worst grind in DDO, imo. if you want the best rewards out of destinies, than you

TR into a class that would benefit best from those off destinies. for me, I only like playing melees and I go after those past lives that I feel are worth it. that means im playing barbarian in Magister. painful!

don't TR and suck it up. there are players that don't TR or only do a few or something to that affect.

do it the slow way and use saga xp so you can play the class you want.

don't do it and you have no twists thereby not taking advantage of improving your character.

none of these choices are appealing. destinies and the way the system is designed is not player invention. it is Turbine invention to keep players busy doing something and to make some money.

Why should anyone have to change the basic nature of a character in order to progress it? That is simply one of the worst things that has ever come out of the game. I am all for those people who enjoy TR, but as it stands there should be alternatives to progression by regression inherent in this game, and to avoid creep make it not stack with pastlives or only up to the current maximum that we have.

noinfo

09-12-2015, 08:55 AM

Think about what you're saying here. You don't want to TR and play another build through heroic content because it's grind but you want to stay at cap and repeat a smaller subset of Epic quests over and over. But that's not grind.

When you then ask someone why they would want to do one over the other the honest answer often turns out to be "because I can get much more XP and Epic saga rewards doing it one way". The principle of the whole thing is flawed.

I'm all for there being things to do at cap but giving people less reason to reincarnate isn't one of them. The whole reincarnation concept was genius when it was first introduced and fits perfectly with a game which offers such diverse build options as DDO. I would venture that it's probably one of the major reasons why DDO has had such longevity for a lot of us. There is no good reason to add other ways to acquire past lives when we have a perfectly fine mechanic for doing it already in place

EDIT: Just for clarity, I'm not suggesting that levelling in Epics is fine. The lack of any choices when talking to an Epic trainer on a level where you just click Next then Finish is terrible. The lack of any sense of progression that we get with Heroic Enhancements mid-level is for me another negative. Losing your first time XP bonus running an Epic quest you had previously completed on Heroic makes no sense especially when the storyline has advanced and these are essentially new quests in a familiar environment - so much so that I end up skipping quests on Heroic that I will be running on Epic.

Epic levelling is nowhere near perfect but banking XP to bypass it isn't the right solution.

The honest answer is because they prefer playing at that level and style. I know players who prefer heroic. The concept of progression by regression is what is flawed, you can call a new system whatever you want rather than pastlives, having the bonuses worth something so that you can see a clear progression like past lives would be good and is not something that can be just earned "between past lives"

noinfo

09-12-2015, 09:00 AM

Just wondering, if your toon progresses at cap, are you actually at cap. I mean progress other than gear.

Level cap does not have to mean development cap. It is one of the worst flaws of the game that has linked progression to regression and releveling. It has created a culture and mindset that after a certain point they expect characters to undergo a TR to "enhance" themselves.

Axeyu

09-12-2015, 09:04 AM

There is nothing more holy about TR or ETR over people wanting progression at end game. It certainly isn't harder, for many it certainly isn't more fun and in no way does it magically mean more because you are playing at those levels. IMO TR is the most immersive breaking thing in game and if I never had to do it and was still able to progress in some other way I certainly would. However unlike those who feel that everyone must run through all the lives because that's the way it should be done I don't feel the need to try and tell people that the game should not reward their favoured playstyles.

Good luck comming up with a system that has even close to the "bang for the buck" as TR.

noinfo

09-12-2015, 09:20 AM

Good luck comming up with a system that has even close to the "bang for the buck" as TR.

And that's where part of the mindset can change right there. It does not have to be bang for buck because people using it are playing what they actually want to play. The easiest way would be to award bonuses of the same type as pastlives stacking to the maximum pastlives do now to prevent power creep.

Axeyu

09-12-2015, 09:27 AM

And that's where part of the mindset can change right there. It does not have to be bang for buck because people using it are playing what they actually want to play. The easiest way would be to award bonuses of the same type as pastlives stacking to the maximum pastlives do now to prevent power creep.

That would greatly disincentivize doing TRs, which significantly cuts down the amount of content that people run. It would be a horrible system.

walkin_dude

09-12-2015, 09:28 AM

Level cap does not have to mean development cap. It is one of the worst flaws of the game that has linked progression to regression and releveling. It has created a culture and mindset that after a certain point they expect characters to undergo a TR to "enhance" themselves.

If that's the way the game works, then what's wrong with it?

I see a lot of complaining about "forcing playstyles" on people. But I also see those same people demanding changes that alter the entire character of the game in the name of being able to use their own playstyles. How is one wrong and the other not?

noinfo

09-12-2015, 09:40 AM

That would greatly disincentivize doing TRs, which significantly cuts down the amount of content that people run. It would be a horrible system.

Why are you trying to dictate what content people want to run? Is there anything that I have suggested that would prevent them from running it? No, and this is the type of static resistance that will continue unfortunately, we can't have alternatives because this is how I believe it should only be.

There will be no disincentive for those who enjoy TR at all.

Axeyu

09-12-2015, 09:42 AM

Why are you trying to dictate what content people want to run? Is there anything that I have suggested that would prevent them from running it? No, and this is the type of static resistance that will continue unfortunately, we can't have alternatives because this is how I believe it should only be.

There will be no disincentive for those who enjoy TR at all.

Do you know what an incentive is? If so, do you agree that incentives matter?

noinfo

09-12-2015, 09:46 AM

If that's the way the game works, then what's wrong with it?

I see a lot of complaining about "forcing playstyles" on people. But I also see those same people demanding changes that alter the entire character of the game in the name of being able to use their own playstyles. How is one wrong and the other not?

Its very straight forward and obvious with my suggestion, I have been very clear that existing systems should remain, why should my desire to progress without regressing limit those who enjoy it? You may want to go and read my posts first. While I really hate the progression by regression model, I know others who love it as it allows them to stay in heroics and play the level ranges they enjoy without having to run endless alts.

noinfo

09-12-2015, 09:56 AM

Do you know what an incentive is? If so, do you agree that incentives matter?

Do you know what choice is and why it matters?

Here it is straight forward: Do you like running 1-20 if so then TR!
Do you dislike progression via regression? if so here is option 2.

You can frame incentives anyway you want but why should any be needed for TR? The incentive should be people wanting to log in to play the game for fun, Thinking I would really want to get x bonus (even though only small amount) for my character who is capped etc, oh I am going to have to TR to be able to get that bonus that would benefit my current class, into something that does not remotely resemble my character intent is disincentive for me to play.

Alternatively the TR addict hits 20 great I wonder what combination I can try next? What gear layout will I need? etc. Incentive to play is there too.

Acquiring bonuses that would not be related to your class should be limited to TR if you want to frame some type of incentive in there.

Deadlock

09-12-2015, 09:56 AM

why should my desire to progress without regressing limit those who enjoy it?

In simple terms because we can't have a game where the game mechanics are added to pander to anyone who would prefer an alternative. Why is your desire to run one alternative any more important to someone else who would prefer a different alternative?

The methods by which you can gain heroic past lives are very simple. If you don't like them then that's kinda too bad.

You understand the rules and you can plan accordingly.

walkin_dude

09-12-2015, 10:04 AM

Its very straight forward and obvious with my suggestion, I have been very clear that existing systems should remain, why should my desire to progress without regressing limit those who enjoy it? You may want to go and read my posts first. While I really hate the progression by regression model, I know others who love it as it allows them to stay in heroics and play the level ranges they enjoy without having to run endless alts.

As it is, both options are already there. People are completely and totally able to play at endgame, and people are completely and totally able to use the methods we have to obtain various kinds of progress. To me, doing both at the same time just doesn't make sense. Any more than playing in LD while gaining xp/karma in Magister makes sense. I suppose I'm just willing to accept the framework that a game provides for me and make the most of what I can do within that framework. Similar to when I used to sit around a table and the DM would make declarations as to how the game worked. There are a lot of things about pnp D&D that were better than DDO, but one thing DDO has better is the lack of arguments and rules lawyering.

In my view, these posts asking to be able to do everything all at the same time sound like the residue of entitlement. That's not me accusing anyone of anything, just saying how it comes across. I also know that I'm probably from a different era than most of the people asking for these (in my view) excessive things, so I have to make allowances for that.

Deadlock

09-12-2015, 10:06 AM

for me to have a high functioning barbarian then I should either:

make peace with running him handicapped, join your group and be knowingly carried
make peace with tring him into something I didn't really want in the first place so I can go go back to barb
make peace with sitting behind you in terms of ability and potential

None of these solutions seems preferable to me.

You also have the option of running him in your preferred ED, earning saga rewards and switching your ED in and out to claim the saga XP in the destiny you don't enjoy. Which might not be ideal, but it's certainly an option.

The concept of being in one ED but gaining XP in another has never made any sense. We've had all sorts of variations on it including Karma Pools that provide 10-50% of that XP to off-destinies.

Taking one preferred build, say barbarian but could be anything, and staying in that build to acquire all past lives and Completionist makes even less sense. What have you completed if you've just taken one build and played it endlessly at cap?

And remember, that all of the options you mention above with their associated negatives are only temporary disadvantages. Make peace with whatever you have to, achieve whatever you want to, then go back to being awesome.

EDIT: On the question of what capped end-game characters would earn in a P&P game, it wouldn't be XP, but it would be titles and notoriety.

noinfo

09-12-2015, 10:07 AM

In simple terms because we can't have a game where the game mechanics are added to pander to anyone who would prefer an alternative. Why is your desire to run one alternative any more important to someone else who would prefer a different alternative?

The methods by which you can gain heroic past lives are very simple. If you don't like them then that's kinda too bad.

You understand the rules and you can plan accordingly.

You do get that TR was not always a thing right and that it was included as a mechanism to the game after the fact as part of a games evolution? Get over it, I am sure it won't lower anyones opinion of Uber Completionist just because alternatives are suggested. I know its kinda too bad that not everyone actually thinks gaining a past live from 1-20 is any sort of event and heaven forbid that anyone would prefer to do anything else.

What you might want to think about is that the TR system particularly heroic has not changed in a long time apart from an xp rebalance, many other more core systems have changed for better or worse within that time, you might also want to realise that even if you don't like those changes or the proposed changes its kinda too bad, people will keep making suggestions whether you like it or not and often because the game has changed and its time for another part of it to catch up, if you don't like it then perhaps an MMO is not for you.

walkin_dude

09-12-2015, 10:07 AM

noinfo

09-12-2015, 10:15 AM

As it is, both options are already there. People are completely and totally able to play at endgame, and people are completely and totally able to use the methods we have to obtain various kinds of progress. To me, doing both at the same time just doesn't make sense. Any more than playing in LD while gaining xp/karma in Magister makes sense. I suppose I'm just willing to accept the framework that a game provides for me and make the most of what I can do within that framework. Similar to when I used to sit around a table and the DM would make declarations as to how the game worked. There are a lot of things about pnp D&D that were better than DDO, but one thing DDO has better is the lack of arguments and rules lawyering.

In my view, these posts asking to be able to do everything all at the same time sound like the residue of entitlement. That's not me accusing anyone of anything, just saying how it comes across. I also know that I'm probably from a different era than most of the people asking for these (in my view) excessive things, so I have to make allowances for that.

While I certainly haven't played DnD as long as some on the forums, but in 35 years of playing I was never asked to progress my character by starting it again at level 1, so I am not really seeing it as being entitled, I actually see it the other way around. Those who prefer the TR cycle seem to believe their style is the only one that should progress.
Don't get me wrong benefits outside the class you are in should be restricted to TR etc but beyond that no.

Axeyu

09-12-2015, 10:16 AM

Do you know what choice is and why it matters?

Here it is straight forward: Do you like running 1-20 if so then TR!
Do you dislike progression via regression? if so here is option 2.

You can frame incentives anyway you want but why should any be needed for TR? The incentive should be people wanting to log in to play the game for fun, Thinking I would really want to get x bonus (even though only small amount) for my character who is capped etc, oh I am going to have to TR to be able to get that bonus that would benefit my current class, into something that does not remotely resemble my character intent is disincentive for me to play.

Alternatively the TR addict hits 20 great I wonder what combination I can try next? What gear layout will I need? etc. Incentive to play is there too.

Acquiring bonuses that would not be related to your class should be limited to TR if you want to frame some type of incentive in there.

While it may be a disincentive for you to play I would say that it's one of the single most important reason that we still have game to play at all. This is not an issue of "TR addicts vs TR haters", it's about the large majority inbetween.
TR added rather enormous amount of longevity to the game. With it people can take their content starved capped characters and progress while replaying the huge amount of lower level content.
If there was an option to get the same bonuses while remaining at cap then that's what people would do, it's far less of an investment in effort and comfort even if the grind would be made to take as much time. The result would be that people repeat the endgame content until it's boring and then just play another game.

noinfo

09-12-2015, 10:19 AM

There are good things about TR and also bad things (clearing the cache, ugh). I find it useful to do at least twice on a toon, just to get 36 point build and the ability to open elite.

TR should always be there as an option for those who want it.

walkin_dude

09-12-2015, 10:23 AM

While I certainly haven't played DnD as long as some on the forums, but in 35 years of playing I was never asked to progress my character by starting it again at level 1, so I am not really seeing it as being entitled, I actually see it the other way around. Those who prefer the TR cycle seem to believe their style is the only one that should progress.
Don't get me wrong benefits outside the class you are in should be restricted to TR etc but beyond that no.

I guess my point is, in other games, do you change the rules so that you can achieve whatever goal you have without being inconvenienced? That's what's being asked for (over long periods of time, in many different ways). And it seems to me that when the developers do capitulate on something and change the rules, the result can be really terrible (raid timer bypasses).

noinfo

09-12-2015, 10:29 AM

While it may be a disincentive for you to play I would say that it's one of the single most important reason that we still have game to play at all. This is not an issue of "TR addicts vs TR haters", it's about the large majority inbetween.
TR added rather enormous amount of longevity to the game. With it people can take their content starved capped characters and progress while replaying the huge amount of lower level content.
If there was an option to get the same bonuses while remaining at cap then that's what people would do, it's far less of an investment in effort and comfort even if the grind would be made to take as much time. The result would be that people repeat the endgame content until it's boring and then just play another game.

TR saved this game by maximising its limited content, it is probably the major reason the game is still running. It does not mean there are not issues to address.

Those people could:
A) TR
B) Roll an alt

As for what should be available to those not wanting to TR, make the acquisition take longer at end game, no worries. Restrict powers based on class, bonuses to dc and spell pen? (not that it currently matters) a wiz or caster can get, bonuses to hp, fighters, barbs etc. But to be the best you can be in a specific class should not require you to relevel in another class.

Anyway others will either support the idea for a change or not, the devs will either take it on board or not.

Deadlock

09-12-2015, 10:34 AM

You do get that TR was not always a thing right and that it was included as a mechanism to the game after the fact as part of a games evolution?

TRing didn't exist on the European servers. It only became an option when we migrated to the US servers.

You're wrong in saying that the TR system hasn't evolved. I'm sure you remember like myself when Tomes didn't persist through TRing? And now they do. A change that was universally applauded.

The genius behind TRing was to add longevity to the game, with an incremental bump in power while allowing the development team to effectively recycle and reuse existing content. As much as I used to like levelling my characters and shed no tear at deleting alts to create new ones back on the EU servers when the level cap was 16, being able to Reincarnate your character is one of the reasons that I've played for as long as I have, and as much as I have.

I'm not sure if you're trying to make a personal attack at my forum title or if you're just clutching at straws in trying to construct an argument. I do agree with you that gaining Heroic Past Lives is no Herculean task. This supports the argument that you don't need an alternative. The counter argument of "why not since it's not that difficult anyway" takes us back to first principles - if you want something then you play for it rather than seek bypasses.

noinfo

09-12-2015, 10:43 AM

I guess my point is, in other games, do you change the rules so that you can achieve whatever goal you have without being inconvenienced? That's what's being asked for (over long periods of time, in many different ways). And it seems to me that when the developers do capitulate on something and change the rules, the result can be really terrible (raid timer bypasses).

No worse than many of the things forced on us without asking for it. It comes down to implementation and quality control.

See the concept of it being an inconvenience is very subjective, for some its not even an inconvenience (except emptying a cache which I suppose rates up there with lag) for others its a dread.

At the end of the day people should be rewarded for playing their characters well, not how many times they have run 1-20, People have to run their characters to advance, why should they have to run them outside of their concept?

While I am saying this its not because I magically want a completionist or whatever, I have already done the grind on my main already both heroic and epic (though I am painfully running back through the warlock life) at the time I wanted to make the best Wizard possible (bit of a joke now days particulary DC ones) but I could not work out why to be the best wizard possible I would need to run the life multiple times and then to improve DC's and spell pen run other classes again, then for that bonus to all stats (since there was not just a int bonus one) do all the classes for completionist.

noinfo

09-12-2015, 11:03 AM

TRing didn't exist on the European servers. It only became an option when we migrated to the US servers.

You're wrong in saying that the TR system hasn't evolved. I'm sure you remember like myself when Tomes didn't persist through TRing? And now they do. A change that was universally applauded.

The genius behind TRing was to add longevity to the game, with an incremental bump in power while allowing the development team to effectively recycle and reuse existing content. As much as I used to like levelling my characters and shed no tear at deleting alts to create new ones back on the EU servers when the level cap was 16, being able to Reincarnate your character is one of the reasons that I've played for as long as I have, and as much as I have.

I'm not sure if you're trying to make a personal attack at my forum title or if you're just clutching at straws in trying to construct an argument. I do agree with you that gaining Heroic Past Lives is no Herculean task. This supports the argument that you don't need an alternative. The counter argument of "why not since it's not that difficult anyway" takes us back to first principles - if you want something then you play for it rather than seek bypasses.

As I stated in an earlier post, (not a reply to yours so you may have missed it) TR is the reason why the game is still around but the underlying need for it has lessened. Very true with the tomes (and it removed an obstacle to TR and that by itself was a huge win for the game in general, though I wouldn't call it a large systemic change in the way TR operates or was balanced). However there is nothing in any of the suggestions that asks for it to be removed or that would change your playstyle in anyway?

Saying that because it is no Herculean task to gain pastlives is no reason to make people suffer to progress a character, I probably deserver the title "Reluctant Completionist" because obtaining that on my main was by far the worst experience I have ever had in this game. The flaw with your argument and first principals is that you are putting value on playing the game 1 way only, the way you like it most (by your own admission) where as others are not asking to short cut anything, as they would be still playing the game as much as you on the same character for at least that same amount of time and that smacks of hypocrisy that is typical in this type of thread.
At the end of the day, you have stated that you don't like the idea and that's fine
Will it impact on the way you want to play the game? Can't see how.
Will it happen? Probably not bit it certainly wont be because you or I think it should or should not happen.

If I want something I will play for it, but if I want to be a better x class, I want to improve it by playing that class and not having to regress to do it.

Vellrad

09-12-2015, 11:30 AM

TR saved this game by maximising its limited content, it is probably the major reason the game is still running. It does not mean there are not issues to address.

TRing gives players so much TP they don't have to ever buy any, and still get all packs and races and classes released without farming. TR is the reason for more and more things like otto boxes, shards, stat tomes, skill tomes etc. in store; turbine hopes people will finally have a reason to buy some TPs to get their hands on p2w stuff unavaible in game (or avaible only in theory with drop chance bellow 0.01%).

Axeyu

09-12-2015, 11:36 AM

Saying that because it is no Herculean task to gain pastlives is no reason to make people suffer to progress a character, I probably deserver the title "Reluctant Completionist" because obtaining that on my main was by far the worst experience I have ever had in this game. The flaw with your argument and first principals is that you are putting value on playing the game 1 way only, the way you like it most (by your own admission) where as others are not asking to short cut anything, as they would be still playing the game as much as you on the same character for at least that same amount of time and that smacks of hypocrisy that is typical in this type of thread

No. It's naive to believe that people will keep playing for as long if the content they run is significantly decreased just because the bonuses are the same.

What you are missing is that the devs always control how people play the game. Mainly through incentives. If the incentive to TR is removed or significantly dimished (by allowing to gain the same benefits with less effort and/or more comfort) then far less players will TR and instead just repeat the same endgame content that they already have incentive to farm and simply run out of content. At that point they will just quit and play something else.

Silverleafeon

09-12-2015, 12:34 PM

Oh, and I would also like the Devs to consider:

Increasing Epic Destinies to level 10.

and

Introducing a new reincarnation system that drops you from 30 back to 28ish.

Vellrad

09-12-2015, 12:35 PM

Oh, and I would also like the Devs to consider:

Increasing Epic Destinies to level 10.

and

Introducing a new reincarnation system that drops you from 30 back to 28ish.

DR?
(daily reincarnation)

Silverleafeon

09-12-2015, 02:11 PM

dr?
(daily reincarnation)

lol +1

BigErkyKid

09-12-2015, 03:04 PM

Think about what you're saying here. You don't want to TR and play another build through heroic content because it's grind but you want to stay at cap and repeat a smaller subset of Epic quests over and over. But that's not grind.

When you then ask someone why they would want to do one over the other the honest answer often turns out to be "because I can get much more XP and Epic saga rewards doing it one way". The principle of the whole thing is flawed.

I'm all for there being things to do at cap but giving people less reason to reincarnate isn't one of them. The whole reincarnation concept was genius when it was first introduced and fits perfectly with a game which offers such diverse build options as DDO. I would venture that it's probably one of the major reasons why DDO has had such longevity for a lot of us. There is no good reason to add other ways to acquire past lives when we have a perfectly fine mechanic for doing it already in place

EDIT: Just for clarity, I'm not suggesting that levelling in Epics is fine. The lack of any choices when talking to an Epic trainer on a level where you just click Next then Finish is terrible. The lack of any sense of progression that we get with Heroic Enhancements mid-level is for me another negative. Losing your first time XP bonus running an Epic quest you had previously completed on Heroic makes no sense especially when the storyline has advanced and these are essentially new quests in a familiar environment - so much so that I end up skipping quests on Heroic that I will be running on Epic.

Epic levelling is nowhere near perfect but banking XP to bypass it isn't the right solution.

I never said I wanted to grind wizking, spies and Von at cap for PLs.

I said that it is cheaper to code pls benefits (grind) than to code end game ways of acquiring power (more raids items and what not). And this is what we are getting. After heroic tr we got epic tr.

I already said tring was initially a nice way to play another class (fresh view) without feeling you wasted your time progresion wise. And again this is the only thing we have been given and there isn't a real alternative for character progression at cap.

I mean what I am saying is sort of obvious but I felt the point needed to be brought to the discussion.

Over the years after the demise of the old end game we have not been given real end game alternatives to the tr wheel. I guess it is not surprising that for the most part the game is played by serial tr people nowadays. It would be an exercise of masochism to stay playing otherwise.

blackdoguk

09-12-2015, 06:11 PM

EDIT: On the question of what capped end-game characters would earn in a P&P game, it wouldn't be XP, but it would be titles and notoriety.

Stodgy DM! Gimme mah shinies!

Re off destiny levelling: I'm still not convinced that off destiny karma wouldn't provide a net positive to the game, an incentive to run more and a satisfaction for doing so. The same would be achieved by having an arcane destiny for melees, and a martial for casters when they needed those levels but this was an oversight at creation. I'll lobby for off destiny levelling for as long as this game is around in the (perhaps vain) hope that some guildies will come back to DDO and level with me.

Silverleafeon

09-12-2015, 08:24 PM

Stodgy DM! Gimme mah shinies!

Re off destiny levelling: I'm still not convinced that off destiny karma wouldn't provide a net positive to the game, an incentive to run more and a satisfaction for doing so. The same would be achieved by having an arcane destiny for melees, and a martial for casters when they needed those levels but this was an oversight at creation. I'll lobby for off destiny levelling for as long as this game is around in the (perhaps vain) hope that some guildies will come back to DDO and level with me.

This is one area that might be worth considering.

The already suggested elsewhere, being in one epic destiny, yet shifting the xp at a greatly reduced rate into another epic destiny. I believe the rate suggested was 50% or the like, but players would probably consider a ranged of 25~50%

This is different than the OP suggestion of gaining PL while at level cap.

noinfo

09-13-2015, 12:09 AM

No. It's naive to believe that people will keep playing for as long if the content they run is significantly decreased just because the bonuses are the same.

What you are missing is that the devs always control how people play the game. Mainly through incentives. If the incentive to TR is removed or significantly dimished (by allowing to gain the same benefits with less effort and/or more comfort) then far less players will TR and instead just repeat the same endgame content that they already have incentive to farm and simply run out of content. At that point they will just quit and play something else.

No its just narrow minded for people not to think of the possibilities this has to offer.

Advantages are clear: Your character is not regressed and is as it was designed to be. This will be essential for any possible concept of end game to come. Having people constantly regressing prevents it, especially when they are trapped in a past life only build.
Saying playing at end game requires less effort is subjective at best and as is "more comfort" how about more enjoyable.
Saying people will just quite and play something else is once again just your opinion. How many people would also get to the cap and say ok, what's next? What do you mean you TR and start all over again in a different class? How many do you think that would have cost us?
People will still have TR as an option or better yet, alts as they have the benefit of actually being able to level and gear a new toon while being able to advance (slowly) their main.

As for devs controlling through incentives, well its only partly correct as you see they quite often miss their mark the first several times and often need to revise it several times, what has been their priority at one stage may no longer be that now as its part of an evolving game.

DDO has already caught the market on those people interested in the TR treadmill and I am sure they will continue to do so, now lets expand it and catch and keep those who want progression at level cap (notice level cap not progression cap).

Axeyu

09-13-2015, 03:36 AM

No its just narrow minded for people not to think of the possibilities this has to offer.

I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong at every point here. I think you are too biased because you personally are tired of TRing.

Advantages are clear: Your character is not regressed and is as it was designed to be. This will be essential for any possible concept of end game to come. Having people constantly regressing prevents it, especially when they are trapped in a past life only build.

Not true. TR does not prevent an endgame. We have had endgame and TR.

Saying playing at end game requires less effort is subjective at best and as is "more comfort" how about more enjoyable.[/quot
Saying people will just quite and play something else is once again just your opinion. How many people would also get to the cap and say ok, what's next? What do you mean you TR and start all over again in a different class? How many do you think that would have cost us?

That people quit after getting bored of the content is not merely my opinion. To dismiss it as such is ignorant.

People will still have TR as an option or better yet, alts as they have the benefit of actually being able to level and gear a new toon while being able to advance (slowly) their main.
That would imply that TR was never needed in the first place, as we already could make alts. Which is ofcourse wrong.

As for devs controlling through incentives, well its only partly correct as you see they quite often miss their mark the first several times and often need to revise it several times, what has been their priority at one stage may no longer be that now as its part of an evolving game.

No, it's 100% correct. If you accidentally cause something, you still caused it.

DDO has already caught the market on those people interested in the TR treadmill and I am sure they will continue to do so, now lets expand it and catch and keep those who want progression at level cap (notice level cap not progression cap).
There is not enough content at level cap. It's hard enough to keep it fresh for those that TR occasionaly. Those that only play at cap will run out of content very quickly.

Deadlock

09-13-2015, 04:50 AM

No its just narrow minded for people not to think of the possibilities this has to offer.

Arguing against a bad idea has nothing to do with being narrow minded. A bad idea is a bad idea.

You're hung up on this notion that reincarnation is regression. You restart at level 1 (or 15 for iconics or 20 for epics) and get to replay content with a past life, the quest knowledge and gear from your previous lives. Each time you return to level 1 you are in a better position than the last time - or at the very least no worse off.

noinfo

09-13-2015, 05:01 AM

I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong at every point here. I think you are too biased because you personally are tired of TRing.

Not true. TR does not prevent an endgame. We have had endgame and TR.

That people quit after getting bored of the content is not merely my opinion. To dismiss it as such is ignorant.

That would imply that TR was never needed in the first place, as we already could make alts. Which is ofcourse wrong.

No, it's 100% correct. If you accidentally cause something, you still caused it.

There is not enough content at level cap. It's hard enough to keep it fresh for those that TR occasionaly. Those that only play at cap will run out of content very quickly.

I find it extremely funny when people accuse others of being biased. Of course I am as its my opinion on this, as it is yours and you demonstrate again and again your opinion. Your premise that I am biased because of TR burn out is false though, I hated it to begin with due to its very nature of encouraging you to start again from level one in an area that may have had nothing to do with your character concept. I could just imagine this in real life, Ok you just finished your PHD, its off to elementary school for you!

We haven't had a solid end game since cap 20. The TR cycle is a contributer to that. If you can't see how that effects it and will continue to effect it, sorry I can't help you.

The ignorance on your part to discount others opinions on this is astounding!. While I have stated repeatedly there is nothing stoping people from TRing, and there is nothing stopping people from alts and opens up other styles of play while retaining the current style is just fact. You continuing to bring this up does absolutely nothing for your argument.

To say TR was needed is not quite true though its creation brought massive longevity to the game, it allowed people to redo older content and originally gave newer players someone to run with (this can be agued that this may or may not still be the case with difference between vets and new players now and amount of soloing taking place/channels), could this sytem have been replaced with other alternatives? yes it could have. But don't confuse the game that existed when TR came out to the system it has today.

noinfo

09-13-2015, 05:14 AM

Arguing against a bad idea has nothing to do with being narrow minded. A bad idea is a bad idea.

You're hung up on this notion that reincarnation is regression. You restart at level 1 (or 15 for iconics or 20 for epics) and get to replay content with a past life, the quest knowledge and gear from your previous lives. Each time you return to level 1 you are in a better position than the last time - or at the very least no worse off.

Fighting against change for the sake of that's the way its been and the way I like it is narrow minded, narrow minded is just that narrow minded.

Reincarnation is regression you go backward, are you worse of than you were at level 1 last time? no, but that has to be one of the best strawman arguments ever. Lets send someone who has their PHD back to Elementary school, I am betting they will top their class there too and be in a far better position than they were in last time there were there, doesn't make a lot of sense though.

As for quest knowledge and gear? Really? Was it necessary for you to play a quest 20 times to learn the best way of running it? And using BTA gear is terribly hard to have or craft.

morkahn82

09-13-2015, 05:39 AM

Arguing against a bad idea has nothing to do with being narrow minded. A bad idea is a bad idea.

See the comment above about there always being at least one forumite who fails to understand why something is a total no-brainer

Calling an idea bad which you dislike does not make an idea bad.
Calling another idea a no-brainer which you like does not make it a no-brainer for all and automatically good. This is actually fake argumentation, implying everyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

Don't think that your opinion is in any way more important than others.

bartharok

09-13-2015, 05:42 AM

Fighting against change for the sake of that's the way its been and the way I like it is narrow minded, narrow minded is just that narrow minded.

Reincarnation is regression you go backward, are you worse of than you were at level 1 last time? no, but that has to be one of the best strawman arguments ever. Lets send someone who has their PHD back to Elementary school, I am betting they will top their class there too and be in a far better position than they were in last time there were there, doesn't make a lot of sense though.

As for quest knowledge and gear? Really? Was it necessary for you to play a quest 20 times to learn the best way of running it? And using BTA gear is terribly hard to have or craft.

If it isnt broken, dont fix it.

Something isnt broken just because someone doesnt like it

noinfo

09-13-2015, 05:58 AM

If it isnt broken, dont fix it.

Something isnt broken just because someone doesnt like it

Ignoring something and hoping it will be ok is not a strategy. If you don't like something feel free to offer an opinion or a solution.

The "if it isnt broken, dont fix it." applies to a static environment to which a mmo is not.

morkahn82

09-13-2015, 06:03 AM

If it isnt broken, dont fix it.

there would be no improvements, innovation and progress if we only fix the broken and do nothing else.

BigErkyKid

09-13-2015, 06:07 AM

Not true. TR does not prevent an endgame. We have had endgame and TR.
...

There is not enough content at level cap. It's hard enough to keep it fresh for those that TR occasionaly. Those that only play at cap will run out of content very quickly.

And here is why I don't see how you disagree with no info. People are complaining that long term wise progression is coded to only come from TRs (hTRs and eTRs). While virtually everyone has agreed that the TR mechanic has had a positive impact in game, what a lot of us are complaining about is that it has become mostly the only option.

Some people want to play different builds and restart the game. Some others prefer to stay at cap. It is common across most of both types that they want to feel some character progress. When we had cap 20 both options were available. Now we only have one. Obviously people who like cap play have been bleeding from the game. Bring back both options and let people choose. It was like that before and it was very successful. Further dipping into the TR wheel has only created one toon accounts (alts are a waste attitude, etc.) and been a poor excuse for an end game.

Why bicker over that? I fail to see end gamers as people who want everything for free. They just don't enjoy restarting their toons, they want to play at the top of power and complexity. How is it that DDO cannot accommodate both types? That's for the devs to answer. Why did they favor TR mechanics over end game mechanics? Does it have to do with the ease of monetizing the TR wheel and the difficulty of doing so for end game, which in addition is harder to craft (at least compared with the code for PLs...)? Here is where tin foil comes handy. Except that it isn't tin foil at all.

bartharok

09-13-2015, 06:19 AM

there would be no improvements, innovation and progress if we only fix the broken and do nothing else.

You can add things, but fixing things that work often breaks them.

Innovation means making new things, not fixing things that work well.

bartharok

09-13-2015, 06:21 AM

Ignoring something and hoping it will be ok is not a strategy. If you don't like something feel free to offer an opinion or a solution.

The "if it isnt broken, dont fix it." applies to a static environment to which a mmo is not.

Opinions are fine. Solutions that are likely to make problems for the ones that didnt have them before the fix are not solutions.

noinfo

09-13-2015, 06:32 AM

Opinions are fine. Solutions that are likely to make problems for the ones that didnt have them before the fix are not solutions.

Going by your logic we should be back at level 10 cap.
Change is inherent in an mmo where playstyles and the game itself evolves. A lot has changed since TR came out and IMO it needs to be looked at.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 06:59 AM

I dislike theidea.

Additionally, there is a reason why they are called past lives. If theyvwere implemented the way youd like, they would just be epic bonuses.I really don't care what they call it. I just see the current situation as an exercise in naked grinding that basically gives us several excuses to do whatever gets us past it. The proposed way, at least, allows us a smooth progression. Rather than constantly dropping back 8 levels and redoing what we just got done, with all the annoyance of keeping multiple gear sets thrown on top.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 07:08 AM

The problem is that epic experience is earned much more quickly than heroic experience. So, if this were implemented, then it would be fastest for everyone to get to cap once, then stay there and just fill up the buffer over and over and over.That would really depend on how big that buffer was. I mean running half as many VoN 3's, wiz-Kings, etc.. while re-leveling could very easily be faster than running twice as many if not. The difference being there would be less reason to do so if one is still capped. No "working into my gear", "working towards that next feat", etc. to use as an excuse to run the, generally easy, high xp/min epic content.

Axeyu

09-13-2015, 07:17 AM

And here is why I don't see how you disagree with no info. People are complaining that long term wise progression is coded to only come from TRs (hTRs and eTRs). While virtually everyone has agreed that the TR mechanic has had a positive impact in game, what a lot of us are complaining about is that it has become mostly the only option.

Some people want to play different builds and restart the game. Some others prefer to stay at cap. It is common across most of both types that they want to feel some character progress. When we had cap 20 both options were available. Now we only have one. Obviously people who like cap play have been bleeding from the game. Bring back both options and let people choose. It was like that before and it was very successful. Further dipping into the TR wheel has only created one toon accounts (alts are a waste attitude, etc.) and been a poor excuse for an end game.

What noinfo is asking for is a replacement for TR, not a complement to it. I think most people realise that if you could get the TR bonuses at cap far less people would TR, and thus would grind the small amount of endgame content even harder. It would significantly shorten the game by reducing the amount of content that people actually play.

TR adds content to capped character. A new layer of grind to the endgame content that already has reasons to be run does not add new content.

Why bicker over that? I fail to see end gamers as people who want everything for free. They just don't enjoy restarting their toons, they want to play at the top of power and complexity. How is it that DDO cannot accommodate both types? That's for the devs to answer. Why did they favor TR mechanics over end game mechanics? Does it have to do with the ease of monetizing the TR wheel and the difficulty of doing so for end game, which in addition is harder to craft (at least compared with the code for PLs...)? Here is where tin foil comes handy. Except that it isn't tin foil at all.

Limited resources. Nothing controversial about it.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 07:19 AM

Reminds me of requests to level off destinies at a slower pace while staying in your primary destiny. Common theme of play the way you want while progressing your character.Exactly. I pretty much thought that was the goal the devs were trying to achieve with the game. I can't see "play the way you don't want" as something that would attract many customers.

noinfo

09-13-2015, 07:25 AM

Deadlock

09-13-2015, 07:40 AM

Fighting against change for the sake of that's the way its been and the way I like it is narrow minded, narrow minded is just that narrow minded.

You really need to polish up on your arguments here. The discussion on banking XP, routing XP to off-destinies has come up time and time again. It has been considered and rejected.

The concept of earning past lives at level cap is a whole new level of "I want something but I want to do it this way instead of the way it is".

Read the description of any past life. The heroic ones are especially clear in stating "You were a <class> in a past life." You gain these by going through the reincarnation process. This really isn't difficult to grasp.

To suggest that you can somehow sit on a Paladin or whatever the current FOTM build happens to be and somehow gain knowledge associated with an arcane past life is beyond ridiculous. I can be called many things, but lacking in imagination isn't one of them. Yet this whole notion just beggars belief. But by all means, keep trying to convince people that it's a worthy idea.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 07:57 AM

Then why would you choose to do it? Off destiny levelling is an invention of the playerbase. There's absolutely no need to do it. But still some people do and then complain it's awful.Fate points? Unless you mean it can be avoided by simply re-rolling the character to something else with a TR and spending the time leveling it through 20 heroic levels on some temporary build to avoid being off destiny?

If so, that's the same absurd idea the devs seemed to have had when they came up with the whole process.

Axeyu

09-13-2015, 07:58 AM

TR adds no such thing it is still old content run to death and will still be accessible. Keep going with the option bad argument though..

TR adds content to otherwise capped characters. That is just a fact. Denying facts while calling others narrowminded shows that you have no actual argument.

There is nothing inherently wrong with "progression by regression". If you don't like it that's too bad, but it has become an major part of this game nontheless.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 08:15 AM

Personally I belive the Epic Reincarnation should reset only your karma. To balance that could just give a 50% xp penality if you are capped. The iconic and heroic TRs are fine.I was thinking almost exactly the same thing. Though I'd opt for an option to either reset to level 20 or stay at 28 with half xp. More options are always better IMO.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 08:25 AM

That would greatly disincentivize doing TRs, which significantly cuts down the amount of content that people run. It would be a horrible system.If it is so horrible, then it likely would be ignored for the current system. I don't believe that would be the case.

I don't see how offering more options is a bad idea.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 08:28 AM

If that's the way the game works, then what's wrong with it?

I see a lot of complaining about "forcing playstyles" on people. But I also see those same people demanding changes that alter the entire character of the game in the name of being able to use their own playstyles. How is one wrong and the other not?Adding more options just expands the game, it doesn't change it for those who like the current options. Offering chocolate as well as vanilla doesn't force anyone to choose chocolate, it just means everyone isn't forced to have vanilla or go without.

BigErkyKid

09-13-2015, 08:30 AM

What noinfo is asking for is a replacement for TR, not a complement to it. I think most people realise that if you could get the TR bonuses at cap far less people would TR, and thus would grind the small amount of endgame content even harder. It would significantly shorten the game by reducing the amount of content that people actually play.

TR adds content to capped character. A new layer of grind to the endgame content that already has reasons to be run does not add new content.

I don't ask for more grind, rather for more content. If it feels like grind (read ToEE farming) it is already a fail for me. At the end of the day we want to be able to choose between TRing or staying at cap without feeling that: a) there is nothing to do at cap, or very little and b) we are missing out on character progression. This is not outlandish, it was the game at cap 20.

The only problem is that noinfo is focusing too much on the PL business because we are used to PLs being the only real long term measure of progress for a character. After all, gear becomes obsolete pretty quickly.

Limited resources. Nothing controversial about it.

Resources are limited or rather they choose to invest less on the game? Clearly the game appeals to only the TR crowd nowadays and hence has bled the end game gamers. It is cheaper to code Pls than to create end game, yes. They have chosen a smaller product that fits only one of the crowds and the game has lost between 1/2 and 2/3s of its players since then. Other factors have contributed for sure, but lack of end game is nevertheless a key one. Is it more profitable to run a game on the TR wheel selling pots and ottos than a larger but more costly game that includes both end game and TRing?

Until very recently turbine decided to go with the smaller game. Now they are trying to convince us that they are crafting the larger more inclusive game. The remaining end gamers are asking for character progression are cap. In whatever way. No more wheels, we want ladders. I hope it is a feeling that is understood.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 08:40 AM

In simple terms because we can't have a game where the game mechanics are added to pander to anyone who would prefer an alternative.Why not?
Why is your desire to run one alternative any more important to someone else who would prefer a different alternative?Again, why not. That seems the best for both of them actually.

The methods by which you can gain heroic past lives are very simple. If you don't like them then that's kinda too bad.

You understand the rules and you can plan accordingly.I'm guessing you think Turbine is concerned with separating the winners from the losers for some reason and makes the game to see who can or cannot endure the most? They don't, they want as many people as they can get to want to play their game as that best helps them meet their goals. So that kind of attitude is just silly. More options means fewer people fall into the "that's kind of to bad" category and find no good reason to play the game.

Axeyu

09-13-2015, 08:42 AM

Adding more options just expands the game, it doesn't change it for those who like the current options. Offering chocolate as well as vanilla doesn't force anyone to choose chocolate, it just means everyone isn't forced to have vanilla or go without.

The problem is not that people wouldn't like the new system, the problem is that the new option has no longevity compared to the current option, so people will use it and run out of content faster and thus quit the game.

Axeyu

09-13-2015, 08:48 AM

I don't ask for more grind, rather for more content. If it feels like grind (read ToEE farming) it is already a fail for me. At the end of the day we want to be able to choose between TRing or staying at cap without feeling that: a) there is nothing to do at cap, or very little and b) we are missing out on character progression. This is not outlandish, it was the game at cap 20.

The only problem is that noinfo is focusing too much on the PL business because we are used to PLs being the only real long term measure of progress for a character.

It's not like I am against more end game content. I just think it would be a huge mistake to essentially replace the TR system with a grind-at-endgame system.

After all, gear becomes obsolete pretty quickly.

Historically, in DDO, that is actually not true.

Qhualor

09-13-2015, 08:48 AM

The problem is not that people wouldn't like the new system, the problem is that the new option has no longevity compared to the current option, so people will use it and run out of content faster and thus quit the game.

its getting harder and harder to believe players actually want or care about longevity in this game anymore.

raid completions persisting through TR
sitting at cap to get past lives
Ottos Boxes
domination of xp/min
drop rates increased even more
same loot on normal as elite
increase xp in various ways
reducing challenge even further than it is now

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 08:49 AM

As it is, both options are already there. People are completely and totally able to play at endgame, and people are completely and totally able to use the methods we have to obtain various kinds of progress. To me, doing both at the same time just doesn't make sense. Any more than playing in LD while gaining xp/karma in Magister makes sense. I suppose I'm just willing to accept the framework that a game provides for me and make the most of what I can do within that framework. Similar to when I used to sit around a table and the DM would make declarations as to how the game worked. There are a lot of things about pnp D&D that were better than DDO, but one thing DDO has better is the lack of arguments and rules lawyering.Maybe I'm just not as desperate for a game to play as you, but if a DM ran a game in a manner I didn't particularly like, I would simply stop playing with that DM as, to me, not playing at all is preferable to not having fun while playing. Same thing here.

[/quote]In my view, these posts asking to be able to do everything all at the same time sound like the residue of entitlement. That's not me accusing anyone of anything, just saying how it comes across. I also know that I'm probably from a different era than most of the people asking for these (in my view) excessive things, so I have to make allowances for that.[/QUOTE]That would make sense if their was anything one could do at "endgame" that they could do while getting back to the level cap. In reality, there is really no reason for anyone to remain at end game, as it means basically doing the same thing one would be doing with an epic TR without the progress.

Unless you mean there is something wrong with enjoying playing while also gaining progress. If so, all I can say is that I can't see why anyone wouldn't make that their goal when designing a game.

bartharok

09-13-2015, 08:54 AM

Going by your logic we should be back at level 10 cap.
Change is inherent in an mmo where playstyles and the game itself evolves. A lot has changed since TR came out and IMO it needs to be looked at.

Change is one thing, fixing something that actually works, just so that people will have less to do is foolishness.

You may not like to have play the game to get what you want, but that doesnt actually make it a good idea to give ti to everybody for free.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 08:55 AM

The concept of being in one ED but gaining XP in another has never made any sense. No. But tying fate points to doing those multiple destinies never really has either, other than poor attempt by the devs to manipulate the player base into TRing to make things easier.

noinfo

09-13-2015, 08:57 AM

You really need to polish up on your arguments here. The discussion on banking XP, routing XP to off-destinies has come up time and time again. It has been considered and rejected.

The concept of earning past lives at level cap is a whole new level of "I want something but I want to do it this way instead of the way it is".

Read the description of any past life. The heroic ones are especially clear in stating "You were a <class> in a past life." You gain these by going through the reincarnation process. This really isn't difficult to grasp.

To suggest that you can somehow sit on a Paladin or whatever the current FOTM build happens to be and somehow gain knowledge associated with an arcane past life is beyond ridiculous. I can be called many things, but lacking in imagination isn't one of them. Yet this whole notion just beggars belief. But by all means, keep trying to convince people that it's a worthy idea.

To say it has been considered and rejected is garbage. Every time it has come up it has had those in favour and those not in favour and never has there been a dev response.

You an spin your descriptions of pastlives anyway you want, it would be trivial to have the following as an example of progression for wizard: you have earned Arcane paragon status level 1 (instead of past life) this grants you +2 spell pen stacking with past life wizard only up to 3 times cumulative in any combination. If you think it would need to be called a past life you really missing the mark.
This can be done for all abilities that make sense to have access to for casting etc. I don't believe past lives of non related classes or abilities should be accessible, if you want the flexibility then by all means TR.
ETR is a whole other ball game that I believe needs reworking but I am not going there right now.

What beggers belief is that people who like pokemon believe that by collecting all the classes multiple times they should be entitled to progress in power where as those who dedicate themselves to a single class are not and should be capped in power/development. That is true sense of entitlement.

Your right its not a difficult concept to grasp but feel free to continue to try and convince everyone that this is the only way it should be done. Even if nothing is done this time, it will come up again and I am sure that before we hit level cap and a true end game being worked on it will come up again and be discussed by devs.

Axeyu

09-13-2015, 08:57 AM

its getting harder and harder to believe players actually want or care about longevity in this game anymore.

raid completions persisting through TR
sitting at cap to get past lives
Ottos Boxes
domination of xp/min
drop rates increased even more
same loot on normal as elite
increase xp in various ways
reducing challenge even further than it is now

Players don't care about longevity. There are thousands of game out there, so why should they?
It's up to the devs to care about longevity if they want players to keep playing their game.

noinfo

09-13-2015, 09:00 AM

Change is one thing, fixing something that actually works, just so that people will have less to do is foolishness.

You may not like to have play the game to get what you want, but that doesnt actually make it a good idea to give ti to everybody for free.

So in what way is it free? Do people log on and automatically get it or do they have to play their characters? It is not free, its natural progression rather than progression by regression.

Axeyu

09-13-2015, 09:02 AM

What beggers belief is that people who like pokemon believe that by collecting all the classes multiple times they should be entitled to progress in power where as those who dedicate themselves to a single class are not and should be capped in power/development. That is true sense of entitlement.

What beggers belief is that people who like pokemon believe that by collecting all the raids multiple times they should be entitled to progress in power where as those who dedicate themselves to a single raid are not and should not be capped in power/development. That is true sense of entitlement.

The difference is arbitrary.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 09:03 AM

There are good things about TR and also bad things (clearing the cache, ugh). I find it useful to do at least twice on a toon, just to get 36 point build and the ability to open elite.Personally, I don't even see the build points as worth the trouble and the ability to open elite is pretty pointless at that point as epic quests don't have that restriction and, by the time I reach 20 the first time, I have no real need to run heroic quests anymore (even for favor, it's less work to run anything I haven't already or is added to the game 3 times than to level to 20 that many times to avoid having to).

mikarddo

09-13-2015, 09:05 AM

It's not like I am against more end game content. I just think it would be a huge mistake to essentially replace the TR system with a grind-at-endgame system.

Supplement does not equal replace.

I dont think heroic PLs should be given an alternative - but I do think epic PL should (despite already having done 25 of those on my main and thus not needing many if any more).

Add an option to save up 30m karma in a sphere and to expend that 30m karma for an epic PL without lowering your level or getting a LR.

30m at cap is certainly far slower than 6.6m while going from 20 to 28 so there is no way this addition would significantly replace the current method of getting EPL. What it would do would be to allow someone to stay at cap for a longer time yet feel a sense of progression.

Mind - this would not be a grind system because its strictly and by far inferior to the already existing grind - so calling it a grind would be misplaced. Instead it would let someone decide sometimes to stay at cap for a much longer time than is currently done without feeling like a fool and still let the same someone use the established grind system when being at cap lost its charm.

A clear win-win situation imho.

noinfo

09-13-2015, 09:10 AM

TR adds content to otherwise capped characters. That is just a fact. Denying facts while calling others narrowminded shows that you have no actual argument.

There is nothing inherently wrong with "progression by regression". If you don't like it that's too bad, but it has become an major part of this game nontheless.

Just because it is part of the game does not mean it has to be the only part of it, your persistent denial of that fact is the very definition of narrow mindedness.

Your continue to present no valid argument. You bemoan that people will no longer TR and it cause the end of the game, when clearly TR will still be an option for those who want it and would provide an alternative for those who hate it, or a mixture for those in between.
If you want to make the TR path faster than the end game one, no one would care as long as they saw the progression being made.

walkin_dude

09-13-2015, 09:11 AM

Fate points? Unless you mean it can be avoided by simply re-rolling the character to something else with a TR and spending the time leveling it through 20 heroic levels on some temporary build to avoid being off destiny?

If so, that's the same absurd idea the devs seemed to have had when they came up with the whole process.

If this were /., I'd start my response with "Hey, you insensitive clod!" But we're not, so...

Anyway, what you call absurd is how I actually do it. lol

Axeyu

09-13-2015, 09:13 AM

Supplement does not equal replace.

I dont think heroic PLs should be given an alternative - but I do think epic PL should (despite already having done 25 of those on my main and thus not needing many if any more).

Add an option to save up 30m karma in a sphere and to expend that 30m karma for an epic PL without lowering your level or getting a LR.

30m at cap is certainly far slower than 6.6m while going from 20 to 28 so there is no way this addition would significantly replace the current method of getting EPL. What it would do would be to allow someone to stay at cap for a longer time yet feel a sense of progression.

Mind - this would not be a grind system because its strictly and by far inferior to the already existing grind - so calling it a grind would be misplaced. Instead it would let someone decide sometimes to stay at cap for a much longer time than is currently done without feeling like a fool and still let the same someone use the established grind system when being at cap lost its charm.

A clear win-win situation imho.

The practical outcome of noinfos suggestion would be that it pretty much replaced TR.

Your suggestion is different in that you would still play the same content, so it would not really take away anything.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 09:17 AM

TRing gives players so much TP they don't have to ever buy any, and still get all packs and races and classes released without farming. TR is the reason for more and more things like otto boxes, shards, stat tomes, skill tomes etc. in store; turbine hopes people will finally have a reason to buy some TPs to get their hands on p2w stuff unavaible in game (or avaible only in theory with drop chance bellow 0.01%).Not to mention that many of those things can cause characters to gain less favor over the course of a TR by making less content needing to be run.

noinfo

09-13-2015, 09:17 AM

What beggers belief is that people who like pokemon believe that by collecting all the raids multiple times they should be entitled to progress in power where as those who dedicate themselves to a single raid are not and should not be capped in power/development. That is true sense of entitlement.

The difference is arbitrary.

Sorry was this an attempt to link TR to raiding for gear or something else? I am sure you have missed whatever point you were shooting for but that does not seem out of place with your other arguments.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 09:25 AM

noinfo

09-13-2015, 09:25 AM

The practical outcome of noinfos suggestion would be that it pretty much replaced TR.

Your suggestion is different in that you would still play the same content, so it would not really take away anything.

My suggestion would not replace TR for those who wanted to either gain non related power to their class or they just wanted to run lower content, TR would be there.
A fighter should not be able to pick up spell pen but would be able to get the +10 hp from barb, etc.

walkin_dude

09-13-2015, 09:26 AM

Maybe I'm just not as desperate for a game to play as you, but if a DM ran a game in a manner I didn't particularly like, I would simply stop playing with that DM as, to me, not playing at all is preferable to not having fun while playing. Same thing here.

Heh, well, I haven't been in a pnp gaming group since ... about 1993, I guess. But no matter what game you want to talk about, there has to be some structure. Are you saying that you can only have fun if the DM capitulates to your every whim? The overriding sentiment on these forums most of the time seems to be that of people who want to be catered to hand and foot.

Unless you mean there is something wrong with enjoying playing while also gaining progress. If so, all I can say is that I can't see why anyone wouldn't make that their goal when designing a game.

Not sure how to respond here. As others have said, progress is what you do to prepare for the endgame. :P

walkin_dude

09-13-2015, 09:27 AM

No. But tying fate points to doing those multiple destinies never really has either, other than poor attempt by the devs to manipulate the player base into TRing to make things easier.

Well, we could just eliminate twists, so then nobody would feel compelled to zerg/grind all of the EDs on one life (all the while complaining how unfun it is).

walkin_dude

09-13-2015, 09:29 AM

you have earned Arcane paragon status level 1 (instead of past life) this grants you +2 spell pen stacking with past life wizard only up to 3 times cumulative in any combination.

So are you suggesting that this bonus be cumulative with PL bonuses? So you can grind them all out and then decide you don't really hate TR as much as you thought and go for the double-dip?

Come on, now...

walkin_dude

09-13-2015, 09:31 AM

Players don't care about longevity. There are thousands of game out there, so why should they?

The other ones (that I have tried) haven't caught my attention the way DDO has. :P

walkin_dude

09-13-2015, 09:33 AM

Personally, I don't even see the build points as worth the trouble and the ability to open elite is pretty pointless at that point as epic quests don't have that restriction and, by the time I reach 20 the first time, I have no real need to run heroic quests anymore (even for favor, it's less work to run anything I haven't already or is added to the game 3 times than to level to 20 that many times to avoid having to).

Maybe the emphasized portion of the above quote is the sticking point. None of it is work to me. :P

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 09:39 AM

Saying people will just quite and play something else is once again just your opinion. How many people would also get to the cap and say ok, what's next? What do you mean you TR and start all over again in a different class? How many do you think that would have cost us?In my experience it has cost the game many. Generally it happens a few days after that player's first TR that I simply see them never logging in again. My theory is that between the drop off in character utility and the thought of what it will take to get back to where they were it just doesn't seem worth it.

Deadlock

09-13-2015, 09:43 AM

You an spin your descriptions of pastlives anyway you want

I think you don't understand what spin is if you think a direct quote is spin. No wait, you do understand what spin is as you then fabricate an alternative from your head. :)

As for dedicating yourself to a single class resulting in benefits specific to past lives associated with other classes ... that makes about as much sense as the rest of your arguments so sure, why not. This is now beyond ridiculous. :)

Qhualor

09-13-2015, 09:44 AM

Players don't care about longevity. There are thousands of game out there, so why should they?
It's up to the devs to care about longevity if they want players to keep playing their game.

that's part of the problem. DDO is too fragile to turn things around. "we" have gotten used to the way DDO has transformed the past few years. there are a lot more "casual" (not to be confused with the actual play style") players today than there used to be and some say if the game becomes grindier or harder than they will just pack up and leave. there are also more vets today that are just getting tired of all the "work" they do to progress. im seeing them agree more with these "casual" type of players now. DDO has some things that stand out from other games, but Turbine will never get DDO back to a much healthier game as long as suggestions like in this thread are catered to. I still try to fight it, but I know its a losing battle. I just see what was a great game at one time just get buried further and further. maybe Turbine should make DDO a mobile game and leave the MMO alone getting back to what used to work.

Axeyu

09-13-2015, 09:45 AM

Just because it is part of the game does not mean it has to be the only part of it, your persistent denial of that fact is the very definition of narrow mindedness.

Your continue to present no valid argument. You bemoan that people will no longer TR and it cause the end of the game, when clearly TR will still be an option for those who want it and would provide an alternative for those who hate it, or a mixture for those in between.
If you want to make the TR path faster than the end game one, no one would care as long as they saw the progression being made.

My argument is valid. You simply don't understand incentives and basic player motivations/behavior.

People TR for the PLs, and when doing so they get access to large amount of content. If they would get the same benefit from staying at cap they would miss out of that content and thus burn out on the game faster.
You can't just say that because the option is still there people can choose not to burn out faster by doing a TR. That is just naive and shows your ignorance on the subject. It would be a fair point if DDO was the only game in existance. Players don't care about longevity. There is no reason to do so. The raid farming with raid timers is pretty clear evidence of this. The goal is character progess and they will get there by taking the path of least resistance, whether or not that has the most longevity.
It's up to the devs to create longevity. A very effective way to do so is to make players to run lot of different content. It's obviously not possible to create new content fast enough for this though. This is why the TR system has been so successful, it made players play a wide variety of content instead of just farming the endgame content, and at a very low cost.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 09:46 AM

Maybe the emphasized portion of the above quote is the sticking point. None of it is work to me. :PThat's where it becomes work for me. The idea of playing content because of the favor or the idea of playing a character for the past life it gives both turn the game from play to work for me.

Frankly, the best thing about the OP's idea of allowing epic past lives to be earned while staying at cap is that it removes all though of work from the game. Just play what you like and gain a bonus whenever doing so earns you one without having to jump through all the hoops of the current system.

Axeyu

09-13-2015, 09:50 AM

Sorry was this an attempt to link TR to raiding for gear or something else? I am sure you have missed whatever point you were shooting for but that does not seem out of place with your other arguments.

Two quotes will follow, the first is advocating the removal of TR exclusive bonuses (I.E PLs) and the second is advocating the removal of raid exclusive bonuses (I.E raid specific loot).
Do you agree with both? If just one is valid, why is the other one not?

What beggers belief is that people who like pokemon believe that by collecting all the classes multiple times they should be entitled to progress in power where as those who dedicate themselves to a single class are not and should be capped in power/development. That is true sense of entitlement.

What beggers belief is that people who like pokemon believe that by collecting all the raids multiple times they should be entitled to progress in power where as those who dedicate themselves to a single raid are not and should not be capped in power/development. That is true sense of entitlement.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 09:53 AM

If this were /., I'd start my response with "Hey, you insensitive clod!" But we're not, so...

Anyway, what you call absurd is how I actually do it. lolIs that because that's how you would choose to do it given an alternative, or are you simply doing it because that's how the devs set things up?

If it's the former then you have made a choice, which I applaud and don't see how any change would take away from you. If the later, then I can only ask why you would defend a system that is manipulating you into doing things to Turbine's benefit rather than yours?

Deadlock

09-13-2015, 10:00 AM

In my experience it has cost the game many. Generally it happens a few days after that player's first TR that I simply see them never logging in again. My theory is that between the drop off in character utility and the thought of what it will take to get back to where they were it just doesn't seem worth it.

Our experiences couldn't be further apart. I compare DDO to any other game where you "finish" the game and it has little or no replay value.

The whole TR process allows you to retain your character and gear and "start over". I've never saw a player leave after TRing and I've been around for quite a while.

walkin_dude

09-13-2015, 10:06 AM

Is that because that's how you would choose to do it given an alternative, or are you simply doing it because that's how the devs set things up?

If it's the former then you have made a choice, which I applaud and don't see how any change would take away from you. If the later, then I can only ask why you would defend a system that is manipulating you into doing things to Turbine's benefit rather than yours?

I still haven't played every race/class/pre combination that is interesting to me, so I always have stuff to do if I TR a toon. I've only been around for about 4 and a half years, and I also don't get enough play time to do TR's as fast as some of you guys. I realize not everyone has the same luxury. :) But to answer your question, it's probably about half and half. I avoid the unpleasantness of leveling off-ED and out of sphere by indulging my curiosity about various race/class/pre combinations. :)

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 10:06 AM

Arguing against a bad idea has nothing to do with being narrow minded. A bad idea is a bad idea.

You're hung up on this notion that reincarnation is regression. You restart at level 1 (or 15 for iconics or 20 for epics) and get to replay content with a past life, the quest knowledge and gear from your previous lives. Each time you return to level 1 you are in a better position than the last time - or at the very least no worse off.But you are certainly worse off than you were immediately prior to TRing, which is the regression. I have yet to see the first level 2nd life character that is anywhere near what the level 20 first life character they were was. That is the comparison to make that shows the regression.

What is even the point of getting to run the same content one already beat with more character power, knowledge and better gear? I've always thought that TRing should take things away from the build, rather than adding to it myself.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 10:36 AM

The problem is not that people wouldn't like the new system, the problem is that the new option has no longevity compared to the current option, so people will use it and run out of content faster and thus quit the game.I don't see how that is the case with epic reincarnation. The same content is played either way, due to epic content having neither over-level penalties or under-level lock outs and epic levels being more about what ML gear one can use than anything.

All this change would do is clean a lot of grunge from the game by eliminating the inventory issues of keeping lower level gear around and remove reasons to look at playing as something to get done, rather than something to do by removing all the re-leveling from the process.

Deadlock

09-13-2015, 10:39 AM

What is even the point of getting to run the same content one already beat with more character power, knowledge and better gear? I've always thought that TRing should take things away from the build, rather than adding to it myself.

You're confusing increasing difficulty with TRing, which in theory you get as a F2P player where you can now unlock a higher difficulty on your own.

As for comparing a level 20 character's ability being different from a level 1 character with a past life as proof of regression :) That's the cost of reincarnation. You don't seriously expect a level 1 character with a past life to be as powerful do you? Would that satisfy your defintion of progression? What sort of game would that even be?

Axeyu

09-13-2015, 10:40 AM

I don't see how that is the case with epic reincarnation. The same content is played either way, due to epic content having neither over-level penalties or under-level lock outs and epic levels being more about what ML gear one can use than anything.

All this change would do is clean a lot of grunge from the game by eliminating the inventory issues of keeping lower level gear around and remove reasons to look at playing as something to get done, rather than something to do by removing all the re-leveling from the process.

I don't disagree. But you do see how it's the case for TR, right? (which is what's been discussed here)

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 10:57 AM

Heh, well, I haven't been in a pnp gaming group since ... about 1993, I guess. But no matter what game you want to talk about, there has to be some structure. Are you saying that you can only have fun if the DM capitulates to your every whim? The overriding sentiment on these forums most of the time seems to be that of people who want to be catered to hand and foot.No, but if it's so far off as to not be enjoyable, what's the point of playing? That's pretty much how I see TRing, other than as an alternative to simply deleting a character I was going to reroll anyway, I have yet to find a use for heroic TR. Frankly I find the entire concept a bit nihilistic for my taste, to basically commit suicide so as to be reincarnated as something more powerful. While I find the mechanics to be counter to the purpose of playing in the first place in that one plays a build for what it can get another build, rather than it being what they actually want to play.

Not sure how to respond here. As others have said, progress is what you do to prepare for the endgame. :PWhat endgame? This would actually be something of an end game as it would remove all the going back through the levels window dressing.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 11:08 AM

Well, we could just eliminate twists, so then nobody would feel compelled to zerg/grind all of the EDs on one life (all the while complaining how unfun it is).Except that for me, one life is all I generally have any desire to have. I simply can't wrap my mind around why anyone would rather continually re-roll a limited number of characters than simply make more and always have them all available to play as the mood fits. Personally, if I like a character, TRing it into something else holds zero interest as then I would no longer have it available to play. For those I end up not liking so much it's a nice option, but beyond that I don't see TR as anything but a bad idea, never have.

So, what exactly does this game offer to anyone who doesn't want to constantly re-roll characters?

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 11:10 AM

So are you suggesting that this bonus be cumulative with PL bonuses? So you can grind them all out and then decide you don't really hate TR as much as you thought and go for the double-dip?

Come on, now...I read it as the opposite. Stacking to a max of 3 bonuses in any combination.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 11:22 AM

You're confusing increasing difficulty with TRing, which in theory you get as a F2P player where you can now unlock a higher difficulty on your own.

As for comparing a level 20 character's ability being different from a level 1 character with a past life as proof of regression :) That's the cost of reincarnation. You don't seriously expect a level 1 character with a past life to be as powerful do you? Would that satisfy your defintion of progression? What sort of game would that even be?Yes, that's the regression. To me, the game would be better for earning those small boosts in power from playing at the cap. Dropping back 20 levels and beating the content you already beat, except this time beating it with a bigger club, seems rather pointless to me.

Gremmlynn

09-13-2015, 11:26 AM

I don't disagree. But you do see how it's the case for TR, right? (which is what's been discussed here)Not necessarily at this point, for the same reasons as eTR. There is a broad enough array of high end content due to how epic is.

Axeyu

09-13-2015, 11:33 AM

Not necessarily at this point, for the same reasons as eTR. There is a broad enough array of high end content due to how epic is.

Nothing of what you said applies to TR.
Come on, you were almost there.

bartharok

09-13-2015, 11:55 AM

So in what way is it free? Do people log on and automatically get it or do they have to play their characters? It is not free, its natural progression rather than progression by regression.

It is not natural progression, since natural progression is in this case determined by the rules of the game.

And you disliking it does not change it.

Angelic-council

09-13-2015, 04:05 PM

its getting harder and harder to believe players actually want or care about longevity in this game anymore.

I knew you would realize this one day. I'm sure they care, but not smart enought to discuss constructive idea. We not going to see any changes in TR like OP suggested, it's not something to ask "but how do you know that", it's just obvious systematically.

We are talking about something to do at cap. Everyone want to see a good end game. But what people are discussing everyday is, how to make things easier. It's clear that, that "something to do at cap" is going to be another farming. So focusing on that single subject is a wise thing to do. However, why bring TR and other system into this end game discussing. Not everyone need more past lifes. So it's a waste of time. It doesn't matter how some people like creating new characters and farm lifes. It's not an end game.

morkahn82

09-14-2015, 01:29 AM

I knew you would realize this one day. I'm sure they care, but not smart enought to discuss constructive idea. We not going to see any changes in TR like OP suggested, it's not something to ask "but how do you know that", it's just obvious systematically.

We are talking about something to do at cap. Everyone want to see a good end game. But what people are discussing everyday is, how to make things easier. It's clear that, that "something to do at cap" is going to be another farming. So focusing on that single subject is a wise thing to do. However, why bring TR and other system into this end game discussing. Not everyone need more past lifes. So it's a waste of time. It doesn't matter how some people like creating new characters and farm lifes. It's not an end game.

Nevertheless, turning xp at cap in something useful is worth discussing. Unfortunately I focussed too much on acquiring past lives, which I still support. It could be something completely different e.g. a choise of +6 stat tomes every 6 Million XP. Anything other than directly piping xp into a waste bin would be appreciated. Or an xp overflow container, where you can save 1/20 of your xp for the next life. But I think I will continue this discussion after we know what happens when lvl30 is cap and how the new endgame will be. Thanks for everybodies ideas and thoughts.

LightBear

09-14-2015, 03:49 AM

For the OP:
Tho I would not mind this it would feel so cheap doing it.
If it get's put into the game a heavy chunk of xp has to be taken out of it before it's gets added to the xpbuffer.
I'd say as much as -90% of it, and a hard cap of 660k that can be buffered all together.
This would be Epic xp only, so you have to think twice for banking a whole epic life.

noinfo

09-14-2015, 05:38 AM

I think you don't understand what spin is if you think a direct quote is spin. No wait, you do understand what spin is as you then fabricate an alternative from your head. :)

As for dedicating yourself to a single class resulting in benefits specific to past lives associated with other classes ... that makes about as much sense as the rest of your arguments so sure, why not. This is now beyond ridiculous. :)

Yes because apart from flavour text the past life from Favoured Soul of +1 spell pen and some spell points can be attributed as only related to favoured soul exactly how? Or +1 evocation and some sp only related to sorcerer. Both of these could easily be identified with any arcane or to some extent divine caster and has absolutely nothing remotely to do with levelling that class itself through a past life process. Any of those plus many others could quite easily be added as abilities to aquire at end game within the bounds of the class. If an arcane were to aquire +1 tactics or +10 hp you might have some argument.

However by all means stick to your opinion, I am sure neither your or my opinions will matter until cap reaches 30 and they review TR as a matter of course. But your constant because this is the way its always been and I think people should have to TR to advance has been something that should have ended with MOTU.

noinfo

09-14-2015, 05:40 AM

noinfo

09-14-2015, 05:54 AM

My argument is valid. You simply don't understand incentives and basic player motivations/behavior.

People TR for the PLs, and when doing so they get access to large amount of content. If they would get the same benefit from staying at cap they would miss out of that content and thus burn out on the game faster.
You can't just say that because the option is still there people can choose not to burn out faster by doing a TR. That is just naive and shows your ignorance on the subject. It would be a fair point if DDO was the only game in existance. Players don't care about longevity. There is no reason to do so. The raid farming with raid timers is pretty clear evidence of this. The goal is character progess and they will get there by taking the path of least resistance, whether or not that has the most longevity.
It's up to the devs to create longevity. A very effective way to do so is to make players to run lot of different content. It's obviously not possible to create new content fast enough for this though. This is why the TR system has been so successful, it made players play a wide variety of content instead of just farming the endgame content, and at a very low cost.

People have played the content, most of the lower level content has been around since the game started, do you think that just because you have TR for the 30th time into another levelling build that water works becomes magically more challenging or fun or different in anyway?
For many its just a novelty that they can try without gear or maybe to see how fast they can run it. And yes TR has driven people away, I have seen toons abandoned in guild after TR from those who just could not handle it anymore and if I am seeing it in my guild then I am betting there are many others out there. For every person who enjoys TR there are those who don't the difference is at the moment a large number of those who detest it or would rather play at end game just leave because its not the way the game is designed. Your lack of understanding of this basic concept shows your naivety and ignorance. Your poorly reasoned argument that more content can contribute to longevity for some. But running low level content over and over on characters that are so significantly over powered for it doesn't make it challenging or interesting. You want challenging or interesting make an alt and don't twink it. Alts of course being a byproduct of people having the luxury of being able to keep a main at end game for an extended period without having to rush it back to end game in a non past life gathering build for guild events.

noinfo

09-14-2015, 05:57 AM

Two quotes will follow, the first is advocating the removal of TR exclusive bonuses (I.E PLs) and the second is advocating the removal of raid exclusive bonuses (I.E raid specific loot).
Do you agree with both? If just one is valid, why is the other one not?

What beggers belief is that people who like pokemon believe that by collecting all the classes multiple times they should be entitled to progress in power where as those who dedicate themselves to a single class are not and should be capped in power/development. That is true sense of entitlement.

What beggers belief is that people who like pokemon believe that by collecting all the raids multiple times they should be entitled to progress in power where as those who dedicate themselves to a single raid are not and should not be capped in power/development. That is true sense of entitlement.

Yet another strawman?

Axeyu

09-14-2015, 06:07 AM

Yet another strawman?

No, not a strawman.

Do you agree with both? If just one is valid, why is the other one not?

noinfo

09-14-2015, 06:13 AM

I read it as the opposite. Stacking to a max of 3 bonuses in any combination.

Exactly, this avoids power creep.

noinfo

09-14-2015, 06:17 AM

No, not a strawman.

Do you agree with both? If just one is valid, why is the other one not?

Since we are talking about specific class and class power then the one raid with all the gear for that specific class. We know however that no such raid exists which is why your so called example is not only poorly formed but failed to make your point.

And yes it is a strawman.

Axeyu

09-14-2015, 06:17 AM

People have played the content, most of the lower level content has been around since the game started, do you think that just because you have TR for the 30th time into another levelling build that water works becomes magically more challenging or fun or different in anyway?
For many its just a novelty that they can try without gear or maybe to see how fast they can run it. And yes TR has driven people away, I have seen toons abandoned in guild after TR from those who just could not handle it anymore and if I am seeing it in my guild then I am betting there are many others out there. For every person who enjoys TR there are those who don't the difference is at the moment a large number of those who detest it or would rather play at end game just leave because its not the way the game is designed. Your lack of understanding of this basic concept shows your naivety and ignorance. Your poorly reasoned argument that more content can contribute to longevity for some. But running low level content over and over on characters that are so significantly over powered for it doesn't make it challenging or interesting. You want challenging or interesting make an alt and don't twink it. Alts of course being a byproduct of people having the luxury of being able to keep a main at end game for an extended period without having to rush it back to end game in a non past life gathering build for guild events.

If you really want to believe that TR has an overall negative effect on the game and that adding a TR replacement at cap wouldn't lead to people playing less content then go ahead.
For anyone who is capable of rational thought those things are obviously not true (for all the reasons I have repeated enough times already), so I'm not the least bit worried that something like what you are suggesting would be implemented.

Axeyu

09-14-2015, 06:25 AM

Since we are talking about specific class and class power then the one raid with all the gear for that specific class. We know however that no such raid exists which is why your so called example is not only poorly formed but failed to make your point.

The difference is arbitrary. You essentially said that it's wrong that people can get an exclusive reward from doing task X, as that excludes people who don't want to do task X. That is a rather ridiculous stance which I don't even believe you truly hold.
You would have to formulate why a specific task is bad, which is something you didn't even attempt to do in that statement.

noinfo

09-14-2015, 06:32 AM

If you really want to believe that TR has an overall negative effect on the game and that adding a TR replacement at cap wouldn't lead to people playing less content then go ahead.
For anyone who is capable of rational thought those things are obviously not true (for all the reasons I have repeated enough times already), so I'm not the least bit worried that something like what you are suggesting would be implemented.

I am not sure if there is an issue with your reading previous posts where I have clearly stated:
TR added longevity to the game and likely saved it when there was little to no content available basic reading FTW I suppose.

Has our reliance/focus on TR driven away/diminished greatly a certain type of playstyle and players? Yes it has. Not that anyone can put figures on them but without TR originally the game would likely have finished long ago it does not mean that TR itself has not cause a loss of players itself over the time.
Has the game evolved beyond what it was when TR seemed like the only option? Yes it has. Should we be exploring alternative options as we prepare for logical cap of 30? If the game is to exist for any time beyond it needs to have end game and progression at end game. This should not mean that TR should be removed as it is a strong core of the game but as the level cap reaches 30 it certainly should be revisted, though its unlikely to be done much or at all before that.

Anyone with rational thought is likely to have read the posts and understood them. I wish you luck with that in the future.

noinfo

09-14-2015, 06:34 AM

The difference is arbitrary. You essentially said that it's wrong that people can get an exclusive reward from doing task X, as that excludes people who don't want to do task X. That is a rather ridiculous stance which I don't even believe you truly hold.
You would have to formulate why a specific task is bad, which is something you didn't even attempt to do in that statement.

The similarity is superficial which is why claiming that is the same to use it to refute my position is a strawman.

noinfo

09-14-2015, 06:38 AM

You're confusing increasing difficulty with TRing, which in theory you get as a F2P player where you can now unlock a higher difficulty on your own.

As for comparing a level 20 character's ability being different from a level 1 character with a past life as proof of regression :) That's the cost of reincarnation. You don't seriously expect a level 1 character with a past life to be as powerful do you? Would that satisfy your defintion of progression? What sort of game would that even be?

Well that would be the very definition of progression by regression then wouldn't it? You have regressed a significant way to obtain eventually a very small advantage. What we want is progression without regression (edit: what I want since I should know better than to make claims for other people). Call it whatever you want, add whatever flavour text you want.

Axeyu

09-14-2015, 06:56 AM

I am not sure if there is an issue with your reading previous posts where I have clearly stated:
TR added longevity to the game and likely saved it when there was little to no content available basic reading FTW I suppose.

Has our reliance/focus on TR driven away/diminished greatly a certain type of playstyle and players? Yes it has. Not that anyone can put figures on them but without TR originally the game would likely have finished long ago it does not mean that TR itself has not cause a loss of players itself over the time.
Has the game evolved beyond what it was when TR seemed like the only option? Yes it has. Should we be exploring alternative options as we prepare for logical cap of 30? If the game is to exist for any time beyond it needs to have end game and progression at end game. This should not mean that TR should be removed as it is a strong core of the game but as the level cap reaches 30 it certainly should be revisted, though its unlikely to be done much or at all before that.

Anyone with rational thought is likely to have read the posts and understood them. I wish you luck with that in the future.

You are getting a few things wrong.
When we got TR we hade more endgame content than we have had for a very long time now, so how exactly does it make any sense to replace it now when we have at least as much, probable more, need for it?

You seem to believe that TR somehow takes away from progression at the cap or that those who think TR is good don't want progression at the cap. That is just not true. I believe just as strongly as you that endgame content with progression at the cap is very important. The thing that limits progression at cap and endgame content is resources. In a game with hand crafted quests it's simply not possible to release new content fast enough to keep endgame-only players satisfied. TR is a extremely good complement to the endgame, it gives people a ton of content to play basically for free (for the devs). It's not a replacement.
Do you not see that your suggestion does not add content? It only incentives people to run content that is supposed to be run a lot anyways, at the cost of not running other content.

Axeyu

09-14-2015, 06:57 AM

What we want is progression without regression (edit: what I want since I should know better than to make claims for other people).

I want progression without raiding. Gimme now.

walkin_dude

09-14-2015, 06:57 AM

Well that would be the very definition of progression by regression then wouldn't it? You have regressed a significant way to obtain eventually a very small advantage. What we want is progression without regression (edit: what I want since I should know better than to make claims for other people). Call it whatever you want, add whatever flavour text you want.

Seems more like people want to play at cap, but the fun of playing at cap isn't good enough. There has to be some extra reward. Even though the whole point of the game is to set up a toon so that it can play at cap, people still want to be bribed to do what it is they claimed to want to do the whole time.

Oh, and then there is the issue of people wanting maxed out toons without actually having to do the stuff that maxes them out.

If I want a paycheck, I have to do my job. If I go to my employer and say that my lifestyle makes it inconvenient for me to obtain my paycheck in the standard way, that I need an alternate way to get my paycheck, my employer will inform me of many alternate ways, all of which involve other employers.

bartharok

09-14-2015, 08:04 AM

Seems more like people want to play at cap, but the fun of playing at cap isn't good enough. There has to be some extra reward. Even though the whole point of the game is to set up a toon so that it can play at cap, people still want to be bribed to do what it is they claimed to want to do the whole time.

Oh, and then there is the issue of people wanting maxed out toons without actually having to do the stuff that maxes them out.

If I want a paycheck, I have to do my job. If I go to my employer and say that my lifestyle makes it inconvenient for me to obtain my paycheck in the standard way, that I need an alternate way to get my paycheck, my employer will inform me of many alternate ways, all of which involve other employers.

To change the example a bit, its like wanting to stay at the same level of cash you had after your last paycheck, and then working up towards a greater amount of money, instead of having to spend the money you earned towards living.

noinfo

09-14-2015, 09:09 AM

Seems more like people want to play at cap, but the fun of playing at cap isn't good enough. There has to be some extra reward. Even though the whole point of the game is to set up a toon so that it can play at cap, people still want to be bribed to do what it is they claimed to want to do the whole time.

Oh, and then there is the issue of people wanting maxed out toons without actually having to do the stuff that maxes them out.

If I want a paycheck, I have to do my job. If I go to my employer and say that my lifestyle makes it inconvenient for me to obtain my paycheck in the standard way, that I need an alternate way to get my paycheck, my employer will inform me of many alternate ways, all of which involve other employers.

Is there a reason that people should not advance at top tier rather tan have to TR? This thought process is really a by-product of the TR condition.

Would your boss send you back to entry level pay and position but say its ok when you work your way up again to where you were you can have a .1%bonus.

Or someone complete a PHD then be sent back to elementary school with a pat on the back and be told that they will be able to perform better this time around?

Tons should be able to be maxed out by playing them, if I want a maxed out fighter I should be able to max fighting abilities without regression.

noinfo

09-14-2015, 09:12 AM

To change the example a bit, its like wanting to stay at the same level of cash you had after your last paycheck, and then working up towards a greater amount of money, instead of having to spend the money you earned towards living.

More like take a paycut and lower position for the promise of a .1% rise when you work your way back up the corporate ladder.

noinfo

09-14-2015, 09:22 AM

Gljosh

09-14-2015, 09:32 AM

Personally, (once the cap goes up to 30), I would love to be able to exchange 6 million XP (from one sphere) and the Epic Heart for an Epic Past Life. Add into that you have to trade in 6 million XP from 1 sphere to Iconic TR. Currently I have pretty close to three full spheres before I ETR (I did two Iconic lives already).

Gremmlynn

09-14-2015, 09:40 AM

Nothing of what you said applies to TR.
Come on, you were almost there.Level cap is 28 now. So that is where I would assume it would need to be done.

No, I would have no problem with an alternate option that allowed PLF equivalents to be earned with capped characters. Probably not completionist, but I see that as a separate thing anyway.

Axeyu

09-14-2015, 09:44 AM

Tons should be able to be maxed out by playing them, if I want a maxed out fighter I should be able to max fighting abilities without regression.

By that argument people should just enjoy playing so why is a reward TR necessary? Simply because people want to feel progression. Lack of progression at level cap can and for some does detract from the experience

That still is only your opinion. There is nothing inherently wrong with "progression by regression". It's been a successful part of the game for a long time. Should something that has proven to be successful be replaced just because you personally never have liked it? No, that would be a huge mistake.
That TR somehow causes a lack of progression at endgame is simply not true. So your reasoning does not follow.

Gremmlynn

09-14-2015, 10:42 AM

I want progression without raiding. Gimme now.It's already in the game. One need not raid to keep progressing. I know I only run a raid once in a blue moon when mood and opportunity happen to coincide.

Gremmlynn

09-14-2015, 10:58 AM

Seems more like people want to play at cap, but the fun of playing at cap isn't good enough. There has to be some extra reward. Even though the whole point of the game is to set up a toon so that it can play at cap, people still want to be bribed to do what it is they claimed to want to do the whole time.

Oh, and then there is the issue of people wanting maxed out toons without actually having to do the stuff that maxes them out.

If I want a paycheck, I have to do my job. If I go to my employer and say that my lifestyle makes it inconvenient for me to obtain my paycheck in the standard way, that I need an alternate way to get my paycheck, my employer will inform me of many alternate ways, all of which involve other employers.I really don't get this "no pain no gain" type attitude. Progress and fun shouldn't be a choice, it should go hand in hand for the entirety of one's play time.

If Turbine were paying me to play their game I would agree with you.

But it is Turbine who wants me to pay them, so that whole argument makes zero sense.

It's up to them to provide whatever it is that entices us to do so because we can do without them a lot better than they can do without us.

When I get to the level cap I simply want a better option to keep playing than re-rolling for a little bonus.

Gremmlynn

09-14-2015, 11:03 AM

That still is only your opinion. There is nothing inherently wrong with "progression by regression". It's been a successful part of the game for a long time. Should something that has proven to be successful be replaced just because you personally never have liked it? No, that would be a huge mistake.
That TR somehow causes a lack of progression at endgame is simply not true. So your reasoning does not follow.Just as there is nothing inherently wrong with an alternative to it as it seems there are some people who seem to dislike it. That just allows for attracting a bigger customer base IMO.

Axeyu

09-14-2015, 11:29 AM

Just as there is nothing inherently wrong with an alternative to it as it seems there are some people who seem to dislike it. That just allows for attracting a bigger customer base IMO.

There is something inherently wrong with the alternative that has been suggested.
I know that at some level you understand it, otherwise you wouldn't have identified that the problem is not the same for ETR. I dunno how it could go wrong from there, maybe you just really want to disagree.

Gremmlynn

09-14-2015, 12:21 PM

There is something inherently wrong with the alternative that has been suggested.
I know that at some level you understand it, otherwise you wouldn't have identified that the problem is not the same for ETR. I dunno how it could go wrong from there, maybe you just really want to disagree.How is the problem even different than ETR though?

I'm assuming in both cases that it would be occurring at the level 28 level cap, not level 20 for HTR. So, same amount of usable content in either case. It's all a matter of setting up xp requirements that makes both systems as even as can be IMO.

Deadlock

09-14-2015, 12:30 PM

More like take a paycut and lower position for the promise of a .1% rise when you work your way back up the corporate ladder.

You really are desperate to try and conflate the reincarnation process of a game with something that supports your case, no matter how ridiculous that conflation is aren't you. :)

As an employer, I can assure you that any employee who came to me to explain that they had past lives in anything, while I would obviously respect their right to be delusional, I wouldn't be making them a spokesperson for my company.

I'm guessing you've ran out of arguments based on game mechanics. I think you've made your position quite clear and people can now decide whether to raise their voices in support of you.

Axeyu

09-14-2015, 12:35 PM

How is the problem even different than ETR though?

I'm assuming in both cases that it would be occurring at the level 28 level cap, not level 20 for HTR. So, same amount of usable content in either case. It's all a matter of setting up xp requirements that makes both systems as even as can be IMO.

"I don't see how that is the case with epic reincarnation. The same content is played either way, due to epic content having neither over-level penalties or under-level lock outs."

Deadlock

09-14-2015, 12:38 PM

When I get to the level cap I simply want a better option to keep playing than re-rolling for a little bonus.

You might have missed it in the myriad of posts already, but nobody is arguing against things to do at level cap. But as long as the debate is centered on something silly like gaining past lives then it's not progressing to sensible end-game suggestions. Probably a thing best done in a fresh thread where you can outline your suggestions.

Annex

09-14-2015, 12:53 PM

I would very much enjoy some system for adding Past Life Feats (or the equivalent) without having to scrap my character.

DDO took a very strange route to character progression. Many other games award some measure of permanent character power for replaying old content, but DDO is the only game I can think of where, to progress, one must throw away a fully leveled character and start over, usually playing a completely different race and class! On this grounds alone I see why so few people look at this game.

For example, in Final Fantasy XIV you may play every single class, selecting which one to progress at any given time. If the player starts a new class and hates it, she may immediately switch back to her fully progressed 'main' class. In games like Rift, each character class includes multiple trait trees and the player may freely switch between builds, with each build designed to cover a major role like tank, healer, or damage dealer. Some games allow characters to 'scale down' to the correct level for a dungeon, but gain level cap awards for the effort. At the end of the dungeon, they bounce right back to the level cap. In my experience, DDO is the only game that requires the complete destruction of a character to gain a permanent increase in power for the next character.

Obviously the power players here embrace the 'Reincarnation' system so suggesting a major change to that mechanic, even the addition of a parallel system, will upset them. On the other hand, players seeking more traditional character progression may give DDO a second look if it becomes available.

Qhualor

09-14-2015, 01:03 PM

bartharok

09-14-2015, 02:06 PM

More like take a paycut and lower position for the promise of a .1% rise when you work your way back up the corporate ladder.

I cant help you with your dislike for heroics, so you can view it any way you wish to.

But i still think its a silly way to view it.

Gremmlynn

09-14-2015, 02:14 PM

You might have missed it in the myriad of posts already, but nobody is arguing against things to do at level cap. But as long as the debate is centered on something silly like gaining past lives then it's not progressing to sensible end-game suggestions. Probably a thing best done in a fresh thread where you can outline your suggestions.Well I can agree with one thing. I find the whole concept of gaining "past lives" as rather silly. It's as if characters become so depressed by the lack of any reason to keep going that they just end it all.

Gremmlynn

09-14-2015, 02:23 PM

"I don't see how that is the case with epic reincarnation. The same content is played either way, due to epic content having neither over-level penalties or under-level lock outs."Which tells me there is enough content for it to be an option in either case.

Do you see simply not heroic TRing at all and completely nullifying it's value as a time sink as a better situation? Because that's what I pretty much do with the current mechanics. A few build points and weak bonuses simply are not worth it to me to reroll a character for. Put that on the end for 10-15 million xp and it make's it much more worthwhile to keep playing. For me, at least, the current situation just leads to playing less due to the game seeming more like a chore than anything.

Chai

09-14-2015, 02:43 PM

Which tells me there is enough content for it to be an option in either case.

Do you see simply not heroic TRing at all and completely nullifying it's value as a time sink as a better situation? Because that's what I pretty much do with the current mechanics. A few build points and weak bonuses simply are not worth it to me to reroll a character for. Put that on the end for 10-15 million xp and it make's it much more worthwhile to keep playing. For me, at least, the current situation just leads to playing less due to the game seeming more like a chore than anything.

Because people have argued against any other possible progression. So now we have a treadmill, where folks can keep walking, with the illusion of moving forward, then after many repetitions they realize they have been in the same room the entire time, not really moving forward at all.

Axeyu

09-14-2015, 02:48 PM

Which tells me there is enough content for it to be an option in either case.

People barely think there is enough content for ETR, yet you want to put normal TR into the same content? That is not gonna go well.

How can you on one hand say that it wouldn't be a problem with ETR because the same content is played and on the other hand say that it wouldn't be a problem with TR where the same content isn't played.

Do you see simply not heroic TRing at all and completely nullifying it's value as a time sink as a better situation? Because that's what I pretty much do with the current mechanics. A few build points and weak bonuses simply are not worth it to me to reroll a character for. Put that on the end for 10-15 million xp and it make's it much more worthwhile to keep playing. For me, at least, the current situation just leads to playing less due to the game seeming more like a chore than anything.

Bolded part is important. It's well accepted that the TR system has been a huge success, so that you personally don't like it is not a good reason to replace it.
And please, don't start with the "it's just an option" ****. We all know that if you could get the TR PLs at cap that would become the defacto way to get them. It would replace TR for a large number pf players, who as a result loses a ton of content.

Angelic-council

09-14-2015, 06:27 PM

Nevertheless, turning xp at cap in something useful is worth discussing. Unfortunately I focussed too much on acquiring past lives, which I still support. It could be something completely different e.g. a choise of +6 stat tomes every 6 Million XP. Anything other than directly piping xp into a waste bin would be appreciated. Or an xp overflow container, where you can save 1/20 of your xp for the next life. But I think I will continue this discussion after we know what happens when lvl30 is cap and how the new endgame will be. Thanks for everybodies ideas and thoughts.

Np Mork. Well, "something to do at cap" is a very important subject. But TR is outside of the window. It would require a time and adjustments for such thing. But most importantly, it would be unfair and ruins the current game experience. A lot of negativity in this idea, like.. People stop running 50% of the content which would result in another big complain. But that is not the worst part.. There are many other reasons why this idea won't happen. Simply because we already have this "mechanic" that should be kept untouched.

Now.. How about tome +6 in exchange for 6 million exp? Again, this is also problematic. All those ideas are not something that will replace an end game. It's just "easy gain" and there will be nothing to do at cap in no time. Same goes to overflow container. You see, I became triple completionist about a month ago. If this idea was in place, I would have been triple completionist much earlier than that. It's pretty boring. Well.. keep up the interesting idea, but remember please.. end game is a serious subject.

Gremmlynn

09-14-2015, 06:41 PM

Bolded part is important. It's well accepted that the TR system has been a huge success, so that you personally don't like it is not a good reason to replace it.
And please, don't start with the "it's just an option" ****. We all know that if you could get the TR PLs at cap that would become the defacto way to get them. It would replace TR for a large number pf players, who as a result loses a ton of content.Don't change it because that's what players would rather do makes no sense at all. If players would rather be running high level content, why not facilitate that? What you say makes as much sense as saying don't sell fish sandwiches because people may like them better than burgers.

Why do you think that's what everybody would be doing anyway? IMO most would do whichever takes the least time and it's easy enough to make whichever method the devs would prefer players to use take considerably less time. The other option would just be there for those who actually prefer it enough not to care that it takes longer.

IronClan

09-14-2015, 07:03 PM

You might have missed it in the myriad of posts already, but nobody is arguing against things to do at level cap.

Actually that's exactly what you guys are doing in effect, you've taken the meaningless, made up, arbitrary current way progression works and decided arbitrarily that it should always be thus, because it currently works that way.

Or did you guys at some point actually concoct a reason why slow progress at cap towards EPL's is actually bad? (everyone will prefer it is not a valid reason, besides being silly and almost certainly untrue)

Until you have a real rational for why it's bad as opposed to: I like hamburgers, I don't want them to sell fish sandwiches because people might start to like them more than hamburgers. This thread is just a joke of people with purely selfish motives foot dragging because "It is known" that you only gain benefit from earned XP when you are between level 1 and 27.9 Anything outside of the "known" is of course blasphemy and to be attacked.

IronClan

09-14-2015, 07:04 PM

Axeyu

09-15-2015, 12:55 AM

Don't change it because that's what players would rather do makes no sense at all. If players would rather be running high level content, why not facilitate that? What you say makes as much sense as saying don't sell fish sandwiches because people may like them better than burgers.

Why do you think that's what everybody would be doing anyway? IMO most would do whichever takes the least time and it's easy enough to make whichever method the devs would prefer players to use take considerably less time. The other option would just be there for those who actually prefer it enough not to care that it takes longer.

What I'm saying is rather that don't start selling burgers in the center of town when the game is greatly benefiting from making people go to the burgerplace a few miles away for their burgers.

You even agree that people would do whichever takes least time and effort, so just must agree that the suggestion would make people play a lot less content. If the new system is not to become the new methos for a large number of players the devs would have to set the exp requirement so high that it would be pointless for most players anyways, and then people would just constantly complain that it's too high. It is just not plausible to balance them for the few people for whom TR is an overall negative without significantly reducing the content for everyone else.

noinfo

09-15-2015, 05:23 AM

What I'm saying is rather that don't start selling burgers in the center of town when the game is greatly benefiting from making people go to the burgerplace a few miles away for their burgers.

You even agree that people would do whichever takes least time and effort, so just must agree that the suggestion would make people play a lot less content. If the new system is not to become the new methos for a large number of players the devs would have to set the exp requirement so high that it would be pointless for most players anyways, and then people would just constantly complain that it's too high. It is just not plausible to balance them for the few people for whom TR is an overall negative without significantly reducing the content for everyone else.

Few people for whom TR is an overall negative? Based on what numbers?

Here is my summary of your argument: Lets not do it cause too many people might like it?
Despite the fact they have the option to TR, despite the fact that not having to TR would provide the opportunity to create alts as they are not having to rush back to cap on their mains, or force their way through a life that they have found they hated.

noinfo

09-15-2015, 05:27 AM

You really are desperate to try and conflate the reincarnation process of a game with something that supports your case, no matter how ridiculous that conflation is aren't you. :)

As an employer, I can assure you that any employee who came to me to explain that they had past lives in anything, while I would obviously respect their right to be delusional, I wouldn't be making them a spokesperson for my company.

I'm guessing you've ran out of arguments based on game mechanics. I think you've made your position quite clear and people can now decide whether to raise their voices in support of you.

That's the best response you can do, one of us has run out of arguments, but both of us have made out positions pretty clear. But to be honest I doubt that these issues will be considered until toward level cap increase or just after it has increased anyway. And your right, there does seem to be quite a few agreeing with me (though quite a few who don't)

noinfo

09-15-2015, 05:35 AM

Because people have argued against any other possible progression. So now we have a treadmill, where folks can keep walking, with the illusion of moving forward, then after many repetitions they realize they have been in the same room the entire time, not really moving forward at all.

I really wish I could rep this post. It has been going on so long people feel the need to go out and justify that they have done it and the need to keep doing it rather than the fact that it does still provide progression and that they enjoy it.

Axeyu

09-15-2015, 07:15 AM

Few people for whom TR is an overall negative? Based on what numbers?

Based on the well established fact that TR has been an overall huge positive for the game.

Here is my summary of your argument: Lets not do it cause too many people might like it?
Despite the fact they have the option to TR, despite the fact that not having to TR would provide the opportunity to create alts as they are not having to rush back to cap on their mains, or force their way through a life that they have found they hated.

If you put the effort into understanding my argument instead of how to best misunderstand it you might get somewhere.

Eth

09-15-2015, 07:22 AM

What about spending a tr-heart, and getting a buffer of the amount of xp which would be needed to get back to lvl 20 or epic from 20-28 or iconic 15-28, when you fill the buffer (through gaining xp on level cap) you get the past life. This is of course a little naive, more thought has to go into it. But the idea is clear. Progress your character at level cap!

I'd like to see something like that. Should have some drawback though, because it's easier to level a 28 than a 20.
Cut the XP gained in half or something like that.

morkahn82

10-01-2015, 04:07 AM

You can add things, but fixing things that work often breaks them.

Innovation means making new things, not fixing things that work well.

innovation in contrast to inventions (i.e. creating new things) means taking old things and make them better.

my rogue is back to lvl28 yesterday, she is really powerful and fun to play with all that shiny lvl28 gear and capped ED. What a pity there isn't much incentive to stay at cap. there is much more incentive to just go back to 20 and spies/von3/von5 my way back to 28 again and get a feat even it is silly running mainly those quests. balancing xp would be another topic to discuss. couldnt you monitor average time spent to completion and provide xp with some algorithm incorporating time spent and level? After getting the skill tomes you want, sagas are not that benefical. maybe provide 20 major pots or deathward pots in end reward list, or some cool other consumables or cosmetics?