Ranger: Deepwood Stalker Changes

[Steelstar]

Hey, everyone. SteelStar here to talk about upcoming changes to the Ranger's Deepwood Stalker tree currently slated for Update 28. When looking at this tree, we looked to raise their mitigation and provide more Melee options while strengthening many of the existing Ranged options. The list below is a list of changes, if an ability is not mentioned, we don't have plans to change it at the moment.


(Note on the Archer's Focus Feat: This now adds 3 Ranged Power per stack instead of 2% damage to missile damage.)


Core Abilities
~ Sneak Attack (4th core): Passive: You also gain +10 Melee Power and Ranged Power (in addition to the things this ability currently does)
~ Mark of the Hunted: The Fortification debuff has been raised from 10% to 25%. It now reads: "Activate: Expend a use of Animal Empathy. Your target gains -25% Fortification, -10 Armor Class, -10 Spell Resistance, and suffers a -4 penalty to all ability scores for 3 minutes."
~ Horizon Shot: Passive: You also gain +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power (in addition to the things this ability currently does)


Tier One
~ Favored Defense: AP cost reduced to 1/1/1 AP. Is no longer a multi-selector, but instead gives the following benefits against Favored Enemies: +2/+4/+6 to Armor Class, +1/+2/+3 Saving Throws
~ Tendon Cut: Bonus damage increased to +1/+2/+3[W]


Tier Two
~ Favored Defense is removed. (It was combined into the Tier 1 Favored Defense.)
~ Survivalist I: (2 AP) You gain 10 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 3 Physical Resistance Rating. (This is in Favored Defense's old spot).
~ Faster Sneaking: Now costs 1/1/1 AP.
~ Improved Weapon Finesse: This now also applies to Bows.
~ Action Boost: Now costs 1/1/1 AP. Multiselector
* Melee+Ranged Power Boost: (identical to the Knight of the Chalice version)
* Skill Boost: (As per current enhancement)


Tier Three
~ Survivalist II: (2 AP) You gain 20 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 4 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist I)
~ Favored Accuracy is removed and replaced with:
~ Favored Hunter: (1/1/1 AP) You gain +1/+2/+3 to hit and damage against favored enemies. (This moved horizontally to the middle of Tier 3)
~ Thrill of the Hunt: AP Cost is reduced to 1/1/1 AP. "You gain +1/+2/+3 damage for 6 seconds after damaging an opponent under 50% health." (% is now the same across all three ranks).


Tier Four
~ Favored Damage is removed. (It was combined with tier three Favored Hunter)
~ Survivalist III: (2 AP) You gain 30 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 5 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist II)
~ Hunter's Mercy
* Merciful Shot now works if the target is below 50% health (was 20%). The bane damage scales with 100% Ranged Power.
* Merciful Strike now works if the target is below 50% health (was 20%). The bane damage scales with 100% Melee Power.
~ Leg Shot is now identical to the Mechanic version of the same ability (+2[W] damage)


Tier Five
~ Extra Favored Enemy: (No longer requires Favored Damage, since that no longer exists)
~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)
* Head Shot: Ranged Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.
* Head Strike: Melee Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.



~ Stalker Training: Multiselector
* Improved Archer's Focus: (as per current enhancement)
* With Bow and Sword: +10 Ranged Power and +10 Melee Power
~ Strikes Like Lightning: You gain 10% Double Strike and 20% Double Shot.

[Zzevel]

It's alive! :)

The Ranger pass is going to happen Soon!-ish-ster


~ Improved Weapon Finesse: This now also applies to Bows....
- And throwing Weapons?

[Qhualor]

It's a mix of melee and ranged. Hmmm.. depending on what Tempest looks like, this might be good to put extra points into. I see the trend continues with adding bonuses to light and medium armor.

[Saekee]

interesting. I notice the difference between mechanic and this in that mechanic loads up on range power in the fourth and fifth tiers whereas this only gets it on tier 5 but in the fourth core. I predict new ranged throwers possibly aiming for fourth core of ranger and fifth tier of mechanic.

Questions:
Improved Weapon Finesse: This now also applies to Bows.
very powerful and interesting for dex builds, no longer stuck going up elf tree for grace but needs extra feat.


~ Survivalist II: (2 AP) You gain 20 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 4 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist I)
Do these work in cloth armor? I am assuming it is intentional as is?

[btolson]

Is Manyshot going to see a change with the ranger pass? Important to know one way or the other, wrt double shot bonuses and more.

[Gratch]

Tier Five
~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)
* Head Shot: As per current enhancement
* Head Strike: A new Melee version of the same ability


Head Shot and Head Strike are not very defining and I think they should be. Bonus 500 on vorpal (5%)? auto-crit... hmmm. Pretty lame Milhouse. I'd suggest more damage add but that's already in arcane archer. It IS a head shot. Maybe add, "target that has a head must make a Fortitude save versus (10 + dex or wis + ranger + epic level + tendon slice bonus) or die instantly." (also 20 second cooldown instead of 60).
[The bard's instadeath tier 5 is 15 seconds though it does require a pre-spelled enemy, the rogue's is 12 seconds, so 20 isn't game breaking]
[Arrow of slaying is 20s cooldown. Bonus 250 base damage 95% of the time and often on 4 arrows with manyshot]

P.S. I only checked the wiki for this enhancement's current benefit. Maybe that is out of date. It really sucks when comparing it to everything else.

[HatsuharuZ]

I think that you miiigghht be giving us a bit too much ranged and melee power. But that's just me.

[ValariusK]

Do you realize that the change to precise shot is actually a nerf? 30% increased damage is 30% of (100%+RP%)* total damage whereas 30 ranged power is (100%+RP%+30)* total damage. With 30 ranged power vs 30% increased damage you're losing effectively 30% * your original ranged power *total damage in damage.

My suggestion, since I'm confident you DON'T want to nerf rangers in this pass is to make precise shot's bonus scale upwards in epics to compensate, or just don't change precise shot.

[mikarddo]

Do you realize that the change to precise shot is actually a nerf? 30% increased damage is 30% of (100%+RP%)* total damage whereas 30 ranged power is (100%+RP%+30)* total damage. With 30 ranged power vs 30% increased damage you're losing effectively 30% * your original ranged power *total damage in damage.

My suggestion, since I'm confident you DON'T want to nerf rangers in this pass is to make precise shot's bonus scale upwards in epics to compensate, or just don't change precise shot.

The change to action boost suffers from the same issue.

[CeltEireson]

Seems reasonable at first glance except head shot - given how frequently you tend to get criticals anyways Im not entirely sure why you consider a guaranteed critical so powerful that it needs to have a one minute cooldown. Its not as if the enhancement has any bonus to critical damage, and in terms of working with epic abilities such as fury shot - youre practically guaranteed a critical with fury shot as is.

As for the 500 damage on a vorpal - I always took this to mean a vorpal on the head shot - which given the cooldown is 1 minute and a vorpal is a 1 in 20 chance means that on average you will see that damage appear after 20 shots or 19 minutes i.e. you'll be lucky to see it fire off more than once or twice in the average quest. Basically average over a quest its pretty much next to no increase in DPS and on higher level quests its next to nothing. Its also doesn't get multiplied up the same way that Arrow of Slaying damage does as far as I'm aware.

If you're keeping the main benefit as it is the cooldown needs to come down to maybe 20-30 seconds - work out how many times you'll fire a bow over a one minute period and how much damage one extra critical represents - the extra DPS from this is negligible. That's fine for shots that have some other effect like slow etc but for something that is straight up damage its not that useful.

Why not change it to an effect of some sort - how about a percentage chance to stun given that you're hitting their head or DC based off a skill or attribute, or even a 100% chance to daze. Something a bit more interesting and of benefit than a miniscule increase in damage.

[CeltEireson]

Oh and regards Archers Focus - given that the basic archers focus is of the same damage type as the Deadly attribute on items we pretty much lose most of the benefit of this as it is. We' currently up to +12 damage from deadly items, basic archers focus is only 15 - so at best we get an extra 3 damage and we have to get the stacks that high in the first place. Think it should be changed to a different type that stacks with deadly.

Again may be wrong about this and I'm basing it on old posts.

[lain5246]

I am loving that we are getting buffs to use correct armor. I feel that it make a large difference when I have to think twice before slapping on heavy armor/ cloth as I will not max out my buffs using aforementioned.
please keep this trend going

[HatsuharuZ]

Empathic Healing should be changed. Instead of allowing the use of the weakest of the Vigor spells up to 6 times per rest, it should add single target Vigor spells to the ranger's spell list. Rangers currently don't get any healing spells until they get *Cure Light Wounds* at level 8. Please let them cast vigor spells, starting at level 4.

[CeltEireson]

Went online to check out my old ranger - still a few things that would likely need changed:

Rogue version of move silently / faster sneaking: Stealthy: +1/+2/+3 Hide and Move Silently. +25/50/75% movement speed while sneaking.

They get it all for 1 point per level, and 75% bonus to sneak speed as opposed to 50% on the current deepwood stalker.

Empathic healing is still rather weak for 2 points per level - given that rangers already have better forms of healing. Even with tier 3 of increased empathy that's still only 8 uses of a very minor form of healing, especially as youd probably be saving the animal empathy for mark of the hunted. Maybe think about having animal empathy regenerate slowly over time the same way smite or turn undead, say if tier 3 of animal increased empathy is taken, or if tier 2 of empathetic healing is taken.

[Grailhawk]

~ Mark of the Hunted: The Fortification debuff has been raised from 10% to 25%. It now reads: "Activate: Expend a use of Animal Empathy. Your target gains -25% Fortification, -10 Armor Class, -10 Spell Resistance, and suffers a -4 penalty to all ability scores for 3 minutes."

Can this get the same animation/delay as Assassin's Trick. Last time I used this (2 years+ ago) it had a very long animation/delay I cant remember the specifics but its was an issue.




~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)
* Head Shot: As per current enhancement
* Head Strike: A new Melee version of the same ability
~ Stalker Training: Multiselector
* Improved Archer's Focus: (as per current enhancement)
* With Bow and Sword: +10 Ranged Power and +10 Melee Power

I really think you should consider removing the melee option and adding an insta-kill to the ranged version.

[Ralmeth]

Seems reasonable at first glance except head shot - given how frequently you tend to get criticals anyways Im not entirely sure why you consider a guaranteed critical so powerful that it needs to have a one minute cooldown. Its not as if the enhancement has any bonus to critical damage, and in terms of working with epic abilities such as fury shot - youre practically guaranteed a critical with fury shot as is.

As for the 500 damage on a vorpal - I always took this to mean a vorpal on the head shot - which given the cooldown is 1 minute and a vorpal is a 1 in 20 chance means that on average you will see that damage appear after 20 shots or 19 minutes i.e. you'll be lucky to see it fire off more than once or twice in the average quest. Basically average over a quest its pretty much next to no increase in DPS and on higher level quests its next to nothing. Its also doesn't get multiplied up the same way that Arrow of Slaying damage does as far as I'm aware.

If you're keeping the main benefit as it is the cooldown needs to come down to maybe 20-30 seconds - work out how many times you'll fire a bow over a one minute period and how much damage one extra critical represents - the extra DPS from this is negligible. That's fine for shots that have some other effect like slow etc but for something that is straight up damage its not that useful.

Why not change it to an effect of some sort - how about a percentage chance to stun given that you're hitting their head or DC based off a skill or attribute, or even a 100% chance to daze. Something a bit more interesting and of benefit than a miniscule increase in damage.

/Agreed. The cooldown should be reduced to 20 seconds.

Other than that, I like the sound of the changes!

[Grailhawk]

Oh and regards Archers Focus - given that the basic archers focus is of the same damage type as the Deadly attribute on items ...

That's not what Archers Focus does. Archers focus is not +damage is +damage% there is a big difference.

[Steve_Howe]

I really think you should consider removing the melee option and adding an insta-kill to the ranged version.
No. No one ever said Deepwood Stalker was a Ranged-only PrE. You might be thinking of Deepwood Sniper which is a D&D 3.5 PrC.

[CeltEireson]

That's not what Archers Focus does. Archers focus is not +damage is +damage% there is a big difference.

I stand corrected! ;) forgot about that.

[Grailhawk]

No. No one ever said Deepwood Stalker was a Ranged-only PrE. You might be thinking of Deepwood Sniper which is a D&D 3.5 PrC.

I agree its not ranged only tree Stalker should be the hybrid tree and offer multi-selectors for most things. That said I think Deepwood should have an insta-kill, I also think Rangers should not be Assassinate things like a Rogue does hence why if Deepwood gets an insta-kill it should be Ranged only.

[Steve_Howe]

I agree its not ranged only tree Stalker should be the hybrid tree and offer multi-selectors for most things. That said I think Deepwood should have an insta-kill, I also think Rangers should not be Assassinate things like a Rogue does hence why if Deepwood gets an insta-kill it should be Ranged only.

Hmmm. Ok. Seems reasonable enough to at least consider.

[CeltEireson]

That's not what Archers Focus does. Archers focus is not +damage is +damage% there is a big difference.

Although looking at it its not as bad a I first thought - but having deadly as the same bonus does mean that you wont see any benefit from archers focus until you've gotten a fair number of levels of it, though it obviously depends on what your base damage is like.

[Krelar]

Although looking at it its not as bad a I first thought - but having deadly as the same bonus does mean that you wont see any benefit from archers focus until you've gotten a fair number of levels of it, though it obviously depends on what your base damage is like.

It's now going add ranged power not damage now so it doesn't matter anymore. (unless they type it the same as some other source of ranged power just to spite you :D)

[Lauf]

Tier Two
~ Survivalist I: (2 AP) You gain 10 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 3 Physical Resistance Rating. (This is in Favored Defense's old spot).

Tier Three
~ Survivalist II: (2 AP) You gain 20 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 4 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist I)

Tier Four
~ Survivalist III: (2 AP) You gain 30 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 5 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist II)


this may be a silly question, but do these bonuses all stack?
meaning, if you took all 3 would you have +30hp and +5 PRR over regular light armor, or +60hp and +12PRR?

[Grailhawk]

this may be a silly question, but do these bonuses all stack?
meaning, if you took all 3 would you have +30hp and +5 PRR over regular light armor, or +60hp and +12PRR?

the way enhancements usually work it will be +60hp and +12PRR.

[Grailhawk]

but having deadly as the same bonus does mean that you wont see any benefit from archers focus until you've gotten a fair number of levels of it, though it obviously depends on what your base damage is like.

The bonus type has nothing to do with it Archers Focus increases deadly so say you have a 10% Archers Focus stack and a +10 Deadly Item that means you will you will get an extra 1 damage from the deadly item.

So you do 100 damage with no Archers Focus then you will do 110 damage with a 10% stack of Archers Focus.

Changing Archers focus to Ranged power changes that a little bit because of how Ranged power stacks with itself but its close enough to be the same for this example.

[Mryal]

Interesting changes, specialy since it boosts melee and ranged at once and welcomes dex to bows without locking you into elf.Except...


Seems reasonable at first glance except head shot - given how frequently you tend to get criticals anyways Im not entirely sure why you consider a guaranteed critical so powerful that it needs to have a one minute cooldown. Its not as if the enhancement has any bonus to critical damage, and in terms of working with epic abilities such as fury shot - youre practically guaranteed a critical with fury shot as is.

As for the 500 damage on a vorpal - I always took this to mean a vorpal on the head shot - which given the cooldown is 1 minute and a vorpal is a 1 in 20 chance means that on average you will see that damage appear after 20 shots or 19 minutes i.e. you'll be lucky to see it fire off more than once or twice in the average quest. Basically average over a quest its pretty much next to no increase in DPS and on higher level quests its next to nothing. Its also doesn't get multiplied up the same way that Arrow of Slaying damage does as far as I'm aware.

If you're keeping the main benefit as it is the cooldown needs to come down to maybe 20-30 seconds - work out how many times you'll fire a bow over a one minute period and how much damage one extra critical represents - the extra DPS from this is negligible. That's fine for shots that have some other effect like slow etc but for something that is straight up damage its not that useful.

Why not change it to an effect of some sort - how about a percentage chance to stun given that you're hitting their head or DC based off a skill or attribute, or even a 100% chance to daze. Something a bit more interesting and of benefit than a miniscule increase in damage.

I agree.At least reduce cooldown, its a very weak tier 5.

[mikarddo]

Maybe I am overlooking something but how is this supposed to make rangers compete with mech rogues for ranged dps?

[ForgettableNPC]

I like these additions and changes.

Deepwood Stalker seemed like the odd one out that almost nobody took except to be quirky.
I was planning to try it when I cycled back to Ranger life, but now I have more of a reason to! Yay!

[Saekee]

Went online to check out my old ranger - still a few things that would likely need changed:

Rogue version of move silently / faster sneaking: Stealthy: +1/+2/+3 Hide and Move Silently. +25/50/75% movement speed while sneaking.

They get it all for 1 point per level, and 75% bonus to sneak speed as opposed to 50% on the current deepwood stalker.

Empathic healing is still rather weak for 2 points per level - given that rangers already have better forms of healing. Even with tier 3 of increased empathy that's still only 8 uses of a very minor form of healing, especially as youd probably be saving the animal empathy for mark of the hunted. Maybe think about having animal empathy regenerate slowly over time the same way smite or turn undead, say if tier 3 of animal increased empathy is taken, or if tier 2 of empathetic healing is taken.

yes was wondering too re stealth speed if it will be 75% like assassins

[Steve_Howe]

Maybe I am overlooking something but how is this supposed to make rangers compete with mech rogues for ranged dps?

+20% more chance to Double Shot is very nice.

[Grailhawk]

Maybe I am overlooking something but how is this supposed to make rangers compete with mech rogues for ranged dps?

Need to see what the other trees provide before going down that route, if the other trees have crit multipliers or threat ranges in there Tier 5, LV12 Core, or LV18 Core this should be ok.

[Grailhawk]

yes was wondering too re stealth speed if it will be 75% like assassins

Just an IMO here but I don't think it should be Rogues should be better at that kind of think.

[Saekee]

Just an IMO here but I don't think it should be Rogues should be better at that kind of think.

the rangers may need it more though since they do not have the acrobat movement speed buff

[HastyPudding]

Agreed with pretty much everything except Head Shot and Empathic Healing. The difference between Head Shot and Sniper Shot is absolutely hilarious, considering one is tier 5 and the other is in a low level core.

My suggestions:
- Move Head Shot to the 4th core (level 12) and lower the cooldown to 20 or 30 seconds. Maybe add +2[W] because it's very lackluster.
- Move Sniper Shot/Exposing Strike to tier 5 in the tree.
- Move Empathic Healing to the 3rd core (level 6)
- Change Empathic Healing to add the lesser vigor, vigor, and greater vigor spells to the level 1, 2, and 4 ranger spell lists.

[Grailhawk]

the rangers may need it more though since they do not have the acrobat movement speed buff

Why? Rangers aren't sneaking around in combat trying to get an assassinate most the time, and those that are have rogue levels.

Also i have hope for tempest getting a movement speed boost.

[Cetus]

Tendon cut is a terrible ability - what we're gonna slow one big bad trash mob by 50% for 10 seconds? And a 15 second cooldown?

Awful

[Steelstar]

~ Improved Weapon Finesse: This now also applies to Bows....
- And throwing Weapons?
At this time, just Bows.



~ Survivalist II: (2 AP) You gain 20 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 4 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist I)
Do these work in cloth armor? I am assuming it is intentional as is?
Means what it says - Light armor only, does not work with Robes or Outfits.


Is Manyshot going to see a change with the ranger pass? Important to know one way or the other, wrt double shot bonuses and more.
We are still considering changes to Manyshot which may be coming soon, but may not be at the same time as this Ranger pass.


Do you realize that the change to precise shot is actually a nerf? 30% increased damage is 30% of (100%+RP%)* total damage whereas 30 ranged power is (100%+RP%+30)* total damage. With 30 ranged power vs 30% increased damage you're losing effectively 30% * your original ranged power *total damage in damage.

My suggestion, since I'm confident you DON'T want to nerf rangers in this pass is to make precise shot's bonus scale upwards in epics to compensate, or just don't change precise shot.
The change is an intentional one. We'll be bumping each stack of Archer's Focus to +3 Ranged Power to bring it a bit closer to where it was (already updated in the OP).


Seems reasonable at first glance except head shot - given how frequently you tend to get criticals anyways Im not entirely sure why you consider a guaranteed critical so powerful that it needs to have a one minute cooldown. Its not as if the enhancement has any bonus to critical damage, and in terms of working with epic abilities such as fury shot - youre practically guaranteed a critical with fury shot as is.

As for the 500 damage on a vorpal - I always took this to mean a vorpal on the head shot - which given the cooldown is 1 minute and a vorpal is a 1 in 20 chance means that on average you will see that damage appear after 20 shots or 19 minutes i.e. you'll be lucky to see it fire off more than once or twice in the average quest. Basically average over a quest its pretty much next to no increase in DPS and on higher level quests its next to nothing. Its also doesn't get multiplied up the same way that Arrow of Slaying damage does as far as I'm aware.

If you're keeping the main benefit as it is the cooldown needs to come down to maybe 20-30 seconds - work out how many times you'll fire a bow over a one minute period and how much damage one extra critical represents - the extra DPS from this is negligible. That's fine for shots that have some other effect like slow etc but for something that is straight up damage its not that useful.

Why not change it to an effect of some sort - how about a percentage chance to stun given that you're hitting their head or DC based off a skill or attribute, or even a 100% chance to daze. Something a bit more interesting and of benefit than a miniscule increase in damage.
Good info here, we'll take a look at Head Shot.


Oh and regards Archers Focus - given that the basic archers focus is of the same damage type as the Deadly attribute on items we pretty much lose most of the benefit of this as it is. We' currently up to +12 damage from deadly items, basic archers focus is only 15 - so at best we get an extra 3 damage and we have to get the stacks that high in the first place. Think it should be changed to a different type that stacks with deadly.

Again may be wrong about this and I'm basing it on old posts.
Like others said, Archer's Focus is a bonus to Ranged Power while Deadly is a bonus to base damage - They do stack, since they're different properties.


this may be a silly question, but do these bonuses all stack?
meaning, if you took all 3 would you have +30hp and +5 PRR over regular light armor, or +60hp and +12PRR?
Yes, all three tiers of Survivalist stack.

[Evin_Drake]

This sounds like you still need the weapon Finesse Feat. Can this be changed to: Adds Dex to damage with bows. Also, adds Dex to damage with finessable weapons if you have the Weapon Finesse feat.

That way you keep the versatility for those who want to switch between ranged and melee combat, but don't force a feat on someone that only wants to be a ranged character.

Just a thought. :)

[Kielbasa]

The changes are nice definately a lot of nonsense looks removed or intelligently consolidated. Still there's nothing in here to make me consider swapping from an int based repeater build currently in use on my pure ranger back to using a bow. Not sure if tier 5 is compelling enough to give up arrow of slaying. I really need to do the math to see if all of the potential ranged power in here is worth investing in.

[Gratch]

Good info here, we'll take a look at Head Shot.


Sniff... you saying mine (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/465190-Ranger-Deepwood-Stalker-Changes?p=5684656&viewfull=1#post5684656) that had mostly the same info and compared it to three other PRE tier 5's wasn't good info? Plus if I shoot you in the head with an arrow through the brain... you (the target mob... not you the dev) should have a chance to just die already.

Mostly I still don't see a whole lot to differentiate this DWS +damage tree from AA (though this one is more sustained damage in DWS (while standing still) to AA's bursty and +fx nature). A stalker killshot in the head would be good. Though extra damage is also nice for red/purple named mobs.

Hmmm... maybe add more dex/wis based save-against auto-things in this tree for even more differentiation from AA.


"What are you playing?"
"DC dex-based stalker"
"Cool."

[Steelstar]

Updated Head Shot to the following:

~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)
* Head Shot: Ranged Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.
* Head Strike: Melee Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.





Sniff... you saying mine (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/465190-Ranger-Deepwood-Stalker-Changes?p=5684656&viewfull=1#post5684656) that had mostly the same info and compared it to three other PRE tier 5's wasn't good info?
Not at all! Sorry if it seemed that way. Yours had good info as well.

[Thar]

If this is the end of the ranger pass... it's not enough. no "oh this is fun" clickie or ability. it does a good job in raising dps with some melee power but when you are at the bottom of barrel, 40% extra **** is still ****. Some improvements... comments below.


Core Abilities
~ Sneak Attack (4th core): Passive: You also gain +10 Melee Power and Ranged Power (in addition to the things this ability currently does)

positive move

~ Mark of the Hunted: The Fortification debuff has been raised from 10% to 25%. It now reads: "Activate: Expend a use of Animal Empathy. Your target gains -25% Fortification, -10 Armor Class, -10 Spell Resistance, and suffers a -4 penalty to all ability scores for 3 minutes."

meh as you have what 5 charges per rest. what mob lasts 3 mins except bosses and that debuff will probably mean nothing on most bosses.

~ Horizon Shot: Passive: You also gain +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power (in addition to the things this ability currently does)

definately helps dps but should be +4 dex as most other capstones. the 2.5 extra sneak damage is meh at cap


Tier One
~ Favored Defense: AP cost reduced to 1/1/1 AP. Is no longer a multi-selector, but instead gives the following benefits against Favored Enemies: +2/+4/+6 to Armor Class, +1/+2/+3 Saving Throws

situational benefits vs only select mobs. should be higher or for all enemies.

~ Tendon Cut: Bonus damage increased to +1/+2/+3[W]

ok


Tier Two
~ Favored Defense is removed. (It was combined into the Tier 1 Favored Defense.)
~ Survivalist I: (2 AP) You gain 10 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 3 Physical Resistance Rating. (This is in Favored Defense's old spot).

why only light armor? expensive and 3 prr doesn't get you very far at end game. should be doubled or add AC.

~ Faster Sneaking: Now costs 1/1/1 AP.

good but who takes this?

~ Improved Weapon Finesse: This now also applies to Bows.

good improvement so now it's even for melee or ranged comeat

~ Action Boost: Now costs 1/1/1 AP. Multiselector
* Melee+Ranged Power Boost: (identical to the Knight of the Chalice version)
* Skill Boost: (As per current enhancement)


Tier Three
~ Survivalist II: (2 AP) You gain 20 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 4 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist I)

again light armor, what does 4 prr give you ? avg 1% less damage? needs to be doubled or add AC too for additional benefit (assuming this stacks with survivalist 1)

~ Favored Accuracy is removed and replaced with:
~ Favored Hunter: (1/1/1 AP) You gain +1/+2/+3 to hit and damage against favored enemies. (This moved horizontally to the middle of Tier 3)

should be 1w/2w/3w

~ Thrill of the Hunt: AP Cost is reduced to 1/1/1 AP. "You gain +1/+2/+3 damage for 6 seconds after damaging an opponent under 50% health." (% is now the same across all three ranks).

meh you only get the benefit for half the fight (if you can kill it in 6 secs). A 4000 hp trash mob won't notice the 3 extra pts of damage x 6 arrows.


Tier Four
~ Favored Damage is removed. (It was combined with tier three Favored Hunter)
~ Survivalist III: (2 AP) You gain 30 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 5 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist II)

light armor only? 5 prr is too little for what is needed to make light armor viable. (12 total if it all stacks makes it still worse than medium armor due to the x * attack bonus part of prr. needs to be doubled or AC added to help add to mitigation.

~ Hunter's Mercy
* Merciful Shot now works if the target is below 50% health (was 20%). The bane damage scales with 100% Ranged Power.
* Merciful Strike now works if the target is below 50% health (was 20%). The bane damage scales with 100% Melee Power.

positive change but is it enough?

~ Leg Shot is now identical to the Mechanic version of the same ability (+2[W] damage)


Tier Five
~ Extra Favored Enemy: (No longer requires Favored Damage, since that no longer exists)
not too much excitement here... another +2 vs favored enemy doesn't do much for 5000 hp trash mob. give us an extra 2w for a tier 5

~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)
* Head Shot: As per current enhancement
* Head Strike: A new Melee version of the same ability

cooldown too long

~ Stalker Training: Multiselector
* Improved Archer's Focus: (as per current enhancement)
* With Bow and Sword: +10 Ranged Power and +10 Melee Power

who would take improved archer's focus? you can't stay still as a ranger and live.

~ Strikes Like Lightning: You gain 10% Double Strike and 20% Double Shot.

good addition, but worthy of tier 5? have to think on this.

heavy draw removed?

If this is the start of the ranger pass, then i'll hold judgement. If it's all of it. then it's a fail as not enough prr to make a difference and not enough wow dps to boost it up from bottom of barrel.

[Grailhawk]

Updated Head Shot to the following:

~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)[INDENT]* Head Shot: Ranged Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.
* Head Strike: Melee Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 10/14/18 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.


Still needs a little bit more power or cooldown reduction to be a good Tier 5. Like that it would be fine in any other tier or even a sub 18 core.

[Grailhawk]

Is there any chance that Heavy Draw can be made to work with melee or at least offer a multi selector for a melee option something like Thread the Needle from the Swashbuckler tree would be nice.

[Unsmitten]

Would it be possible to give Throwing Weapons some love in DWS tree? Non-Shuriken throwers.

If Improved Weapon Finesse won't give throwers dex to damage, maybe make it a multi-selector. The Second option being called something like Tactical Thrower, (Adds a % equal to your Str or Dex(whichever is higher) to throw a second Thrower(excluding shuriken from this))

[Ultramaetche1]

Tier Four
~ Hunter's Mercy
* Merciful Shot now works if the target is below 50% health (was 20%). The bane damage scales with 100% Ranged Power.
* Merciful Strike now works if the target is below 50% health (was 20%). The bane damage scales with 100% Melee Power.


Just a word of caution when changing this ability. Currently the bane damage applies in the exact same fashion as Execute from the Rogue Assassin T4. It currently uses 400% MP in the calculation. Changing this ability MAY cause issues with Execute on rogues.

As an aside, it sure is nice blitzing and manyshotting then popping that attack... 15-20k damage for free every 30 seconds was great. I knew it was too good to last. :D

[Thar]

At this time, just Bows.

so it may be under consideration for other types or in the works?



Means what it says - Light armor only, does not work with Robes or Outfits.
Many many rangers are cloth based since you can get more than this from monk earth stance? Can these get a boost to equal what we'd get from earth stance? (heroic 15 prr + epic another 15 with twist for standing with stone.). if you can't get a ranger over 100 prr it will not survive in epics in melee.


We are still considering changes to Manyshot which may be coming soon, but may not be at the same time as this Ranger pass.

manyshot is fine, it's the debuff afterwards that is the problem for rangers who don't need this. Monchers do. So take away the debuff and put 1000 stars on timer is all you need.

The change is an intentional one. We'll be bumping each stack of Archer's Focus to +3 Ranged Power to bring it a bit closer to where it was (already updated in the OP).[/QUOTE]

ok but how can you stand still to build this with a 10,000 hp mob coming at you that can 2 hit you?


Good info here, we'll take a look at Head Shot.

saw the change. that was needed.

more defensive help is needed. no +dodge, 12 prr, and minimal AC is not enough to boost the class to survivabillity. I've played a LOT of ranger. you have to get to 150ish ac to matter even with the dodge and prr needs to be over 100 (pref over 130ish or higher) to sustain a EE fight.

maybe the answer is better leather armor in the game, but the bab * 1/3 = prr really hurts the light armor characters. dodge helps but not enough as you are going to get hit. and 2 hits will kill you. (maybe 3).



Yes, all three tiers of Survivalist stack.

Some good was done, just not enough on the defensive end or a kill mob quickly end. it pushed the bar a little higher but not enough to catch up with barb/pally/bard.

[nayozz]

[QUOTE=Steelstar;5684788]Updated Head Shot to the following:

~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)[INDENT]* Head Shot: Ranged Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.
* Head Strike: Melee Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.

--------------------

what about making it a kill the monster on (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus) if it saves it still goes blind ?

after all both rogue and bard have a 15s cooldown kill ability... ... ... this could give a deepwood sniper a kill or get blinded...
that would totally be cool :P and somehow balanced compared to what is available in other trees
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
also

tier 2 Improved Weapon Finesse: could give dex to damage for bows, and if you have finesse dex to damage to melee weapons
that would still make the enchantment useful even for who doesnt have finesse...

it would be like the barbarian rage which gives always something, but a bit more to who wears the medium armor

or the deepwood enchantment survivalist who gives hitpoints, but an extra prr to who wears light armor.

[Grailhawk]

what about making it a kill the monster on (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus) if it saves it still goes blind ?

That's a good idea and fitting of a tier 5 enhancement.

[CeltEireson]

+20% more chance to Double Shot is very nice.

If you can keep killer going its more like 20% + 20% - 40% bonus to doubleshot is definitely not to be sneezed at, nor is the bonus to ranged power.

[Xionanx]

If this is the first attempt then let me point out the failures in RED.


Hey, everyone. SteelStar here to talk about upcoming changes to the Ranger's Deepwood Stalker tree currently slated for Update 28. When looking at this tree, we looked to raise their mitigation and provide more Melee options while strengthening many of the existing Ranged options. The list below is a list of changes, if an ability is not mentioned, we don't have plans to change it at the moment.


(Note on the Archer's Focus Feat: This now adds 3 Ranged Power per stack instead of 2% damage to missile damage.)


Core Abilities
~ Sneak Attack (4th core): Passive: You also gain +10 Melee Power and Ranged Power (in addition to the things this ability currently does)
~ Mark of the Hunted: The Fortification debuff has been raised from 10% to 25%. It now reads: "Activate: Expend a use of Animal Empathy. Your target gains -25% Fortification, -10 Armor Class, -10 Spell Resistance, and suffers a -4 penalty to all ability scores for 3 minutes." As a CORE ability, this is weak, especially pitted against other core abilities that can be spammed with no limit. I would suggest, if you intend to keep this, you remove tie to "Animal Empathy" (which makes NO sense BTW) and simply put this on a cool down of 15 seconds so that rangers can actually use it.
~ Horizon Shot: Passive: You also gain +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power (in addition to the things this ability currently does)


Tier One
~ Favored Defense: AP cost reduced to 1/1/1 AP. Is no longer a multi-selector, but instead gives the following benefits against Favored Enemies: +2/+4/+6 to Armor Class, +1/+2/+3 Saving Throws
~ Tendon Cut: Bonus damage increased to +1/+2/+3[W]


Tier Two
~ Favored Defense is removed. (It was combined into the Tier 1 Favored Defense.)
~ Survivalist I: (2 AP) You gain 10 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 3 Physical Resistance Rating. (This is in Favored Defense's old spot).
~ Faster Sneaking: Now costs 1/1/1 AP.
~ Improved Weapon Finesse: This now also applies to Bows.
~ Action Boost: Now costs 1/1/1 AP. Multiselector
* Melee+Ranged Power Boost: (identical to the Knight of the Chalice version)
* Skill Boost: (As per current enhancement)


Tier Three
~ Survivalist II: (2 AP) You gain 20 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 4 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist I)
~ Favored Accuracy is removed and replaced with:
~ Favored Hunter: (1/1/1 AP) You gain +1/+2/+3 to hit and damage against favored enemies. (This moved horizontally to the middle of Tier 3) Again, this is EXTREMELY WEAK. When compared with similar Tier 3 abilities most notably of which is mechanic which adds damage to ALL enemies. I would suggest that if you intend to stick with the theme of "Favored Enemy" type damage, that instead of adding "Damage" which doesn't scale well at all in epics, you instead add "Ranged/Melee Power 1/2/3" against favored enemies, which does scale well into epics and would make the favored enemy builds desirable.
~ Thrill of the Hunt: AP Cost is reduced to 1/1/1 AP. "You gain +1/+2/+3 damage for 6 seconds after damaging an opponent under 50% health." (% is now the same across all three ranks). Compared to "Killer" this is weak beyond mentioning.


Tier Four
~ Favored Damage is removed. (It was combined with tier three Favored Hunter)
~ Survivalist III: (2 AP) You gain 30 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 5 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist II) I HOPE ALL THESE STACK FOR A TOTAL OF 12, otherwise its a waste of AP
~ Hunter's Mercy
* Merciful Shot now works if the target is below 50% health (was 20%). The bane damage scales with 100% Ranged Power.
* Merciful Strike now works if the target is below 50% health (was 20%). The bane damage scales with 100% Melee Power.
~ Leg Shot is now identical to the Mechanic version of the same ability (+2[W] damage)


Tier Five
~ Extra Favored Enemy: (No longer requires Favored Damage, since that no longer exists)
~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)
* Head Shot: Ranged Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.
* Head Strike: Melee Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.



~ Stalker Training: Multiselector
* Improved Archer's Focus: (as per current enhancement)
* With Bow and Sword: +10 Ranged Power and +10 Melee Power
~ Strikes Like Lightning: You gain 10% Double Strike and 20% Double Shot.

And as others have pointed out, without knowing any "other" changes that might be happening like Bow Attack Speed adjustments or Manyshot Changes its hard to make a solid judgement. However it is nice to see that ranged power is being put in.

[Thar]

[QUOTE=Steelstar;5684788]

what about making it a kill the monster on (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus) if it saves it still goes blind ?

after all both rogue and bard have a 15s cooldown kill ability... ... ... this could give a deepwood sniper a kill or get blinded...
that would totally be cool :P and somehow balanced compared to what is available in other trees
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
also

tier 2 Improved Weapon Finesse: could give dex to damage for bows, and if you have finesse dex to damage to melee weapons
that would still make the enchantment useful even for who doesnt have finesse...

Yes, the tree needs a kill ability for ranged and melee versions. this would be a good spot

iwf - it does apply to both with the change? what am i missing

[CeltEireson]

Steelstar - whenever the xbow animation was being looked at during the mechanic revamp - allowing the entire draw/fire animation to be speeded up by bonuses to ranged attacked, rather than just one portion of it - it was mentioned that you wouldn't be looking at bow animations at that stage. Any plans to look into it as part of the ranger/DWS pass - bows aren't as badly effected by the separation of the two phases but I'm assuming that redoing them in a similar fashion as xbows were done would lead to some overall improvement in bow attack speed under haste etc?

[rcmcneil]

We are still considering changes to Manyshot which may be coming soon, but may not be at the same time as this Ranger pass.

Personally, I'd like to see Manyshot changed to a Power Attack-like toggle:
- Fire 2 arrows at a -4 attack penalty, available BAB 6-10
- Fire 3 arrows at a -8 attack penalty, available BAB 11-15
- Fire 4 arrows at a -12 attack penalty, available BAB 16-20

Rangers could have enhancements similar to what Power Attack has in melee trees, providing additional ranged damage or additional arrows fired during Manyshot.

[Mindos]

Updated Head Shot to the following:

~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)
* Head Shot: Ranged Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.
* Head Strike: Melee Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.





Not at all! Sorry if it seemed that way. Yours had good info as well.

Just wanted to take a moment to unplug from my current morass, and plop down into this discussion:

First off, the head shot/strike looks good, but may I suggest increase the blindness to 9 seconds, and decrease the cooldown to 12? I would also like to see this ability be a no fail for a pure ranger. Maybe make the DC 1.5 times ranger level? Blindness is actually a good debuff, but the way mobs run around like headless chickens makes me beg this: Add a slow effect to the blindness. Doesn't have to be much. Or more uses of Haste Boost. :)

Second, Mark of the hunted should give some melee and ranged power, it's a level 18 ranger requirement. And Horizon Shot should give more. More then what it gives now, and Mark of the hunted should be half? or maybe a third. For example, I could very much live with Horizon Shot giving dam-near 50 melee and ranged power! (Remember, we're balancing against other classes that have so much more str and damage, typically two handed fighting. A good dollop of love for the top tier ability of a usually two weapon fighting class would not be game breaking) 50 power gated at level 18, with 10 power for Mark of Hunted.

Or make the 18th core ability scale the melee and ranged power with total ranged levels, i.e. 2 melee and ranged power per level of ranger. So 18 ranged would gate in at 36 power, while a pure 20 would get 40. Plus the 10 from Mark, hehe. Anything to reward pure play.

I might be wrong, but I think your changes to Favored Enemies might be a slight nerf. IIRC, Deepwood gave additional favored enemies, which increased all Favored damage by +2. Are we slightly decreasing damage here? From your post, I get +3 damage for 3 AP, at first blush it looks like there's no pizzaz here. Yes, extra at tier 5, but that's tier 5, man!

Improved Weapon Finness, applies to bows? But muh Elf! I'm sure you are aware that Elf's dex to damage with bow's is one of the prime reasons to take elf and ranger? Are you sure you want to make this change? Basically diluting a racial attribute in order to improve an enhancment tree? I don't know, I'm a little torn here. Would love to be a fly on the wall during this discussion.

Survivalist: Needs a slight boost. Yes, yes, I know it all stacks in the end. But still, 2 AP should give a little more. You want peeps to spend, don't you? You want them to be torn between choices, right? I would make Survivalist I give 15 hps, and 4 prr. Two give 25 hps and 5 prr, and three give 35 and 6. It's not really the hit points that I'm worried about. I could even see going crazy and giving much more PRR, like 5, 10, and 15. Sounds extreme, but rangers can be a little light on the PRR front.

Stalker Training: Looks good.

Strikes like Lightning: I see what you're trying to do. I am firmly in the reward pure class play camp. And I know you have to think of splashes as you make changes here. I don't envy your task. Yes, this is top tier. But no, its not enough for a pure ranged. But at the same time, Yes its enough for outside the core. Arghh. I would like to see more of an increase to Doubleshot/strke for upper level rangers, but I don't know what you're doing to the other trees so I'll just let you roll things out at your own pace...........(yes these elipse's were intentional)

[mikarddo]

We are still considering changes to Manyshot which may be coming soon, but may not be at the same time as this Ranger pass.


It sounds rather backwards to balance Rangers without knowing what you want to do with Manyshot...

Personally I think you should simply remove the Doubleshot penalty and do nothing else though I am sure there are other options and ideas on the matter as well. But - dont make the mistake of pretending to balance Rangers without deciding what Manyshot should be like first.

[Evin_Drake]

Or make the capstone scale the melee and ranged power with total ranged levels, i.e. 2 melee and ranged power per level of ranger. So 18 ranged would gate in at 36 power, while a pure 20 would get 40. Plus the 10 from Mark, hehe.

*Just curious, how does one take the capstone who is not pure in class? Am I missing something?

[CeltEireson]

~ Stalker Training: Multiselector
* Improved Archer's Focus: (as per current enhancement)
* With Bow and Sword: +10 Ranged Power and +10 Melee Power

who would take improved archer's focus? you can't stay still as a ranger and live.


If you're talking about soloing then yes I'd agree. but if you're working with melees you can let them engage first and target their mobs, should allow you to build up the stacks without attracting too much attention especially if you have any items to reduce ranged aggro.

Also useful in some boss fights, again as long as you don't draw aggro.

[Mindos]

Or make the capstone scale the melee and ranged power with total ranged levels, i.e. 2 melee and ranged power per level of ranger. So 18 ranged would gate in at 36 power, while a pure 20 would get 40. Plus the 10 from Mark, hehe.

*Just curious, how does one take the capstone who is not pure in class? Am I missing something?

My fault, good catch. I meant the level 18 core should add some extra's if you add on two more levels of ranger. Yes, you would already by 18th level, but could have a sweet bonus if you stay pure.

[Limey]

Request: Please don't nerf monkchers they are fun to play. They are nowhere near a top dps class so do not need nerfing. Part of the fun is the 10K/Manyshot dynamic and the many ways they can be built.

The dps doesn't keep up with Warlocks, pallys, bards etc so I don't understand why some people want it nerfed or made boring.

[Unsmitten]

Personally, I'd like to see Manyshot changed to a Power Attack-like toggle:
- Fire 2 arrows at a -4 attack penalty, available BAB 6-10
- Fire 3 arrows at a -8 attack penalty, available BAB 11-15
- Fire 4 arrows at a -12 attack penalty, available BAB 16-20

Rangers could have enhancements similar to what Power Attack has in melee trees, providing additional ranged damage or additional arrows fired during Manyshot.

Take a look at the current DWS tree, it wasn't mentioned here, because it was not changed. DWS gets Heavy Draw, which is a T5 that is identical to power attack, functioning for ranged attacks.

[CeltEireson]

Personally, I'd like to see Manyshot changed to a Power Attack-like toggle:
- Fire 2 arrows at a -4 attack penalty, available BAB 6-10
- Fire 3 arrows at a -8 attack penalty, available BAB 11-15
- Fire 4 arrows at a -12 attack penalty, available BAB 16-20

Rangers could have enhancements similar to what Power Attack has in melee trees, providing additional ranged damage or additional arrows fired during Manyshot.

Too powerful - simply because the attack penalty isn't enough of a penalty against most mobs. Not with the level of attack bonuses enhancements/destinies, buffs and items. After all its not that difficult to get an item that gives +10 currently, and at the moment for most high level rangers they pretty much hit on a 1 as it is.

And it would be difficult to balance - too much of a penalty and it become useless, too little and the damage increase is way too much.

[blerkington]

Hi,

At first glance, these changes seem pretty weak compared to what was given to mechanics.

Are you able to present any information contrasting the expected damage output using these proposed changes with an equivalently geared crossbow user or thrower? Now that every useful ranger buff is available on gear, and that pretty much everyone can self heal, there's little excuse for leaving the class behind damage wise because it can do 'other things'.

As some other posters have already said, it seems like you're making these changes the wrong way around. Make your decisions about RoF, manyshot and its interaction with doubleshot penalties before the ranger pass. Then let us evaulate the DS (and hopefully AA changes) in conjunction with those new rules.

The proposed changes don't seem to do anything to address the huge RoF disadvantage bow users face, because of the tremendous benefit a high RoF provides when using certain ED abilities and the better weapon procs. I assume that was the thinking behind all the improvements to GXBs, so why isn't the same consideration being provided to archers?

Thanks.

[CeltEireson]

Request: Please don't nerf monkchers they are fun to play. They are nowhere near a top dps class so do not need nerfing. Part of the fun is the 10K/Manyshot dynamic and the many ways they can be built.

The dps doesn't keep up with Warlocks, pallys, bards etc so I don't understand why some people want it nerfed or made boring.

I think the issue is more that if they buff ranged in general then monkchers could become overpowered compared to everything else. Ranged is probably the most awkward one to balance - they don't have spellpoints to restrict them, or the slowdown that mages encounter when casting, and as they're attacking at a range they can avoid a lot of attacks/risks that melees have to deal with.

[Qhualor]

We are still considering changes to Manyshot which may be coming soon, but may not be at the same time as this Ranger pass.

this should be considered sooner rather than later. this will affect a ranged ranger very much depending on the decision of change.


Updated Head Shot to the following:

~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)[INDENT]* Head Shot: Ranged Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.
* Head Strike: Melee Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.

the dex bonus is good for dex based ranged builds, but for melee rangers not so much. I mean, a ranger is still going to invest in dex for evasion but not so much for strength build rangers wanting to utilize the Head Strike melee attack. this is a good tree to dip into for Tempests or a build wanting to have the best of both worlds with ranged and melee. can it be dex or strength, whichever is higher or something like that?

[Jetrule]

~ Mark of the Hunted: I dislike tying animal empathy to this ability.. Maybe one use per 2 ranger and epic levels per rest?


~ Horizon Shot: needs more oomph or it will be rarely chosen.. How about 4d6 sneak attack die?



~ Favored Defense: only good in low level heroics where you have few favored enemies any way.Since we are looking at light armor focus how about throwing in dodge 1/2/3?



~ Survivalist I: (2 AP) And the up tree versions, You gain 10 hit points. Approved. It doesn't seem over the top.

~ Improved Weapon Finesse: This now also applies to Bows.--- I think this cuts into elven territory. Can we instead get a know the angles/ divine might type damage boost that uses dex? Call it Focused accuracy.


~ Favored Hunter: 1/2/3 damage is insipid considering it has limited targets. How about1/2/3/ damage per 5 ranger levels or number of favored enemies?




~ Head Shot: Head Strike: (5w) is hefty and blind 6 seconds chance is ok ish cc but tier 5 with a cooldown? +10 crit damage and +1 multiplier are called for.
I suggest keeping this something useful for ranged and melee rangers. Not ranged or melee rangers. So split it into 3 upgradeable sections 2 ap each combining both aspects of the multi selector, and if you max it it costs 6 ap at tier 5. With the crit damage enhanced.

[jakeelala]

(Note on the Archer's Focus Feat: This now adds 3 Ranged Power per stack instead of 2% damage to missile damage.)
+2% damage is a constant, no matter your level, build, or gear. That is good. Ranged Power, whether it's 2 or 3 has diminshing returns as you gain Ranged Power, which is exactly what happens at higher levels. That means RP boosting abilities like this or the action boost changes below are great for heroics, and more lackluster at end game. In my opinion, that is not a good way to design. But I suppose it might slow down power creep a little. Because it's not as good.


Core Abilities
~ Sneak Attack (4th core): Passive: You also gain +10 Melee Power and Ranged Power (in addition to the things this ability currently does)
You get a ranged power! And you get a ranged power! Everyone gets a ranged power! Joking aside, this a good change, making heavier splashed Rangers not such gimps.

~ Mark of the Hunted: The Fortification debuff has been raised from 10% to 25%. It now reads: "Activate: Expend a use of Animal Empathy. Your target gains -25% Fortification, -10 Armor Class, -10 Spell Resistance, and suffers a -4 penalty to all ability scores for 3 minutes."
This isn't good enough as an ability to be tied to a non-renewable resource like Animal Empathy. Make it more like a Warlock curse that that stacks up over time. Expend a use, and every few seconds increase the fort debuff and the increment the other penalties. Or just give it a cooldown and get rid of useless Animal Empathy.

~ Horizon Shot: Passive: You also gain +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power (in addition to the things this ability currently does)
You get a ranged power! And you get a ranged power! Everyone gets a ranged power! Just kidding again. But really, throw ranged characters a bone and just make this a +1 Crit Multiplier with bows. 20 more ranged power with all the other sources and 10 Bltiz stacks is really like 10 Ranged Power, which isn't all that great.

Tier One
~ Favored Defense: AP cost reduced to 1/1/1 AP. Is no longer a multi-selector, but instead gives the following benefits against Favored Enemies: +2/+4/+6 to Armor Class, +1/+2/+3 Saving Throws
Meh, whatever. I'd rather stacking, legitimate source of Spell Resistance here.

~ Tendon Cut: Bonus damage increased to +1/+2/+3[W]
Give a Ranged option.


~ Survivalist I: (2 AP) You gain 10 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 3 Physical Resistance Rating. (This is in Favored Defense's old spot).
Better: 3 PRR per stack flat, bonus +2 PRR per stack in light armor

~ Improved Weapon Finesse: This now also applies to Bows.
You're making an enormous mistake leaving Throwing weapons out of this. You already made Mechanic vastly less useful for Throwers than Xbows, there's no reason to leave it out again. Y u hate throws?

~ Action Boost: Now costs 1/1/1 AP. Multiselector
* Melee+Ranged Power Boost: (identical to the Knight of the Chalice version)
* Skill Boost: (As per current enhancement)

I hate this change. I like % to damage, it scales better as mentioned above. If you're totally set on it, I guess at least it's only 1AP per tier.

Tier Three
~ Survivalist II: (2 AP) You gain 20 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 4 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist I)
See above for Survivalist I

~ Favored Accuracy is removed and replaced with:
~ Favored Hunter: (1/1/1 AP) You gain +1/+2/+3 to hit and damage against favored enemies. (This moved horizontally to the middle of Tier 3)
Swashbuckler had all sort of interesting and unique enhancements seen nowhere else. Let's get this going for DWS. Teir 3 of Favored Hunter should give a helpless on Vorpal proc (no save) vs. Favored enemies. This encourages pure 20 Rangers so it applies more widely.

~ Thrill of the Hunt: AP Cost is reduced to 1/1/1 AP. "You gain +1/+2/+3 damage for 6 seconds after damaging an opponent under 50% health." (% is now the same across all three ranks).
Let this stack up to 10. IE, every-time you attack an enemy to under 50%, gain a stack for 6 seconds. If you damage ten enemies to under 50% health with less than 6 seconds in between each one, you would have 10 stacks for +10 to damage. This would be like a very mini-blitz and lots of fun.

Tier Four
~ Favored Damage is removed. (It was combined with tier three Favored Hunter)
~ Survivalist III: (2 AP) You gain 30 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 5 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist II)
ok

~ Hunter's Mercy
* Merciful Shot now works if the target is below 50% health (was 20%). The bane damage scales with 100% Ranged Power.
* Merciful Strike now works if the target is below 50% health (was 20%). The bane damage scales with 100% Melee Power.
This is one of those abilities like Sniper Shot which gives a big damage number, but evaluated over time doesn't add nearly as much DPS as you might think. Similar to the current T5 Head Shot which is unequivocally amongst the worst T5 abilities in the game. If you change nothing else from the above change this: make the bane damage part of your base damage a la Slayer Arrow, so it can crit. Then this won't completely suck.

~ Leg Shot is now identical to the Mechanic version of the same ability (+2[W] damage)
Ok cool.

Tier Five
~ Extra Favored Enemy: (No longer requires Favored Damage, since that no longer exists)
ok

~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)
* Head Shot: Ranged Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.
* Head Strike: Melee Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds

Let me guess this right: you want to make a T5 that is basically no more useful than Sniper Shot (arguably Sniper Shot does much more damage with +2 Crit Multi), that doesn't even then guarantee Sneak Attacks? My max dex throwers have Dex in the range of 68-72, with Tensers scrolled and +12/+4 Dex equipment (ie max Dex at end game). So a 20 Ranger with 70 Dex would have 14+20+30=64 Fort save to avoid a blind? Do you know how high end game Fort saves are on EE?
Not to be rude, but this ability is still patently terrible. Here are some quick off-the-top of my head suggestions:
-Auto Blind (for 10 Seconds)
-Dexterity Score %chance (like Shuriken Expertise) to render unconscious (Helpless state and knockdown) for 6 seconds
-+10[W]
-Auto Crit Threat
-20 Second Cooldown
-If used against Favored Enemy, +1 Crit Multiplier

~ Stalker Training: Multiselector
* Improved Archer's Focus: (as per current enhancement)
* With Bow and Sword: +10 Ranged Power and +10 Melee Power

Once again, this is a travesty if it's intended to mean ONLY bows get the ranged power. Absolutely no reason to leave out Thrown weapons here. For that matter, it's T5, make it include any Ranged weapon, including XBows. Not sure why you would take this over Mechanic with an Xbow, but at least you aren't discriminating. Also, I'm very confused what you mean by multislector. Like, you can take perm +10 Ranged power OR Improved Archers Focus? This seems lame, just give both bonuses. If you think that's OP, go look at Swashbucklers T5. It's a short cool-down assassinate, insane crit range expansion.

~ Strikes Like Lightning: You gain 10% Double Strike and 20% Double Shot.
Super duper, really cool. Do not change. Tired of Rogues being the only class (with xbows of all things) to get good Doubleshot bonuses. Do not limit to bows or I quit (kidding, sort of).

[Shindoku]

So as is right now (I can change as things are updated), the tree would look like:
http://oi57.tinypic.com/20uanwk.jpg

[Kielbasa]

Quality of life suggestion. Please add something like fetching into the tree somewhere to give the returning property to ammo. I suggest tacking it onto survivalist 50/65/85% returning at survivalist 1/2/3 respectively.

[Grailhawk]

Bonus
Stalker
Mechanic


Sneak Attack
5d6
6d6


Damage
9.5
7


[W]
0
+2


To-Hit
3
6


Ranged Power
40
20


Doubleshot
40%
10%


Alacrity
0%
40%


Crit Multiplier
0
1



Looks like Mechanic is ahead on just about every thing and the 40% Alacrity and +1 Crit Multiplier more then make up of the 2 places the loose in.

Source


Mechanic
+6 To Hit (Improved Detection, Hip Flask, and Sharpshooter)
+2 [w] (Sniper)
+7 Damage (Improved Detection, Hip Flask, and Sharpshooter)
+6d6 Sneak Attack (Improved Detection, Hip Flask, and Sniper)
+20 Ranged Power (Fletching, and Mechanical Reloader)
+10% Doubleshot (Rapid Fire)
+40 Ranged Alacrity (Mechanical Reloader)
+1 Crit Multiplier (Expert Builder)

Stalker
+5d6 Sneak Attack (Core 1,2,4,6, and Stealthy)
+3 To-Hit vs FE (Favored Hunter)
+9.5 Damage (Heavy Draw, Favored Hunter, and Thrill of the Hunt(3*0.5=1.5 avg))
Always in Point Blank Shot Range
+40 Ranged Power (Core 4, 6, and With Bow and Sword)
+40% Doubleshot (Strikes Like Lightning + Killer)


I'll wait and see what the other trees have in them before making a final judgment on the tree, but if we are looking to make things equal from a ranged point of view this tree seems behined when compared to Mechanic with a crossbow. If the other trees are up to snuff and Stalker is just the put the rest of your points here tree its ok as is.

[Holymunchkin]

Updated Head Shot to the following:

~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)
* Head Shot: Ranged Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.
* Head Strike: Melee Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.





Not at all! Sorry if it seemed that way. Yours had good info as well.

Please make the ability an auto-vorpal. It's something new and interesting. Give it an 8s cooldown. =)

[jakeelala]

Bonus
Stalker
Mechanic


Sneak Attack
5d6
6d6


Damage
9.5
7


[W]
0
+2


To-Hit
3
6


Ranged Power
40
20


Doubleshot
40%
10%


Alacrity
0%
40%


Crit Multiplier
0
1



Looks like Mechanic is ahead on just about every thing and the 40% Alacrity and +1 Crit Multiplier more then make up of the 2 places the loose in.

Mechanic
+6 To Hit (Improved Detection, Hip Flask, and Sharpshooter)
+2 [w] (Sniper)
+7 Damage (Improved Detection, Hip Flask, and Sharpshooter)
+6d6 Sneak Attack (Improved Detection, Hip Flask, and Sniper)
+20 Ranged Power (Fletching, and Mechanical Reloader)
+10% Doubleshot (Rapid Fire)
+40 Ranged Alacrity (Mechanical Reloader)
+1 Crit Multiplier (Expert Builder)

Stalker
+5d6 Sneak Attack (Core 1,2,4,6, and Stealthy)
+3 To-Hit vs FE (Favored Hunter)
+9.5 Damage (Heavy Draw, Favored Hunter, and Thrill of the Hunt(3*0.5=1.5 avg))
Always in Point Blank Shot Range
+40 Ranged Power (Core 4, 6, and With Bow and Sword)
+40% Doubleshot (Strikes Like Lightning + Killer)

I'll wait and see what the other trees have in them before making a final judgment on the tree, but if we are looking to make things equal from a ranged point of view this tree seems behined when compared to Mechanic with a crossbow. If the other trees are up to snuff and Stalker is just the put the rest of your points here tree its ok as is.

I appreciate what you've done here and it's a good breakdown, but it is missing a couple key points:
-Bows are x3 Crit Multi to start with.
-There's a big difference in Repeater Xbow vs. Great Xbow in both Mech and this new DWS tree

Don't mean this as criticism, just adding to the conversation. Overall, I agree this tree is wildly under-powered compared to the most recent Mechanic changes which were totally over the top. I made a long list of suggestions I think would address a lot of the gap.

I also think excluding throwers from any of the beneficial changes to this tree is a mistake, as they have no other tree. They have mechanic, but it's vastly better for xbows than throwers, and barely better than Harper.

[RapkintheRanger]

One of the things about being a ranger that uses a bow is many shot. You get a nice boost dmg with Adrenalin but then there is a penalty to double shot.

The only way around this is to be some sort of monkcher ad use 10K stars.

i wish that a level 18/20 or something ranger could avoid this doubleshot penalty.

I wish i didn't always feel penalized by not multi classing.

[Xionanx]

I appreciate what you've done here and it's a good breakdown, but it is missing a couple key points:
-Bows are x3 Crit Multi to start with.
-There's a big difference in Repeater Xbow vs. Great Xbow in both Mech and this new DWS tree

Don't mean this as criticism, just adding to the conversation. Overall, I agree this tree is wildly under-powered compared to the most recent Mechanic changes which were totally over the top. I made a long list of suggestions I think would address a lot of the gap.

I also think excluding throwers from any of the beneficial changes to this tree is a mistake, as they have no other tree. They have mechanic, but it's vastly better for xbows than throwers, and barely better than Harper.

Any mechanic build that is going to go INT based and take harper, so you are getting the added benefits of more skill points for all your skills. Then you add the fact that even with manyshot repeaters GET MORE SHOTS PER MINUTE. Yah, let that sink in. Mechanics with repeating crossbows end up with more shots per minute, allowing for more overall damage. The whole "moncher" flavor thing is inferior in every way, and if there are going to be other viable ranged based DPS builds then bows need to have a serious boost to their base damage, or they need to have a major boost to their attacks per minute.

Turbine also needs to let players have more access to combat logs so that a DPS meter can be made so that players can stop "guessing" about whats better overall. But by my math, bows just can't compete on any level with XBOW's right now, its a shame.

I personally I waiting to see what changes they have in mind for AA, as has been stated the DWS tree is a melee/ranged tree so relying on it solely for ranged benefit seems a bit off.

IMO, what "Bows" need, and not just rangers:

1. Increased attack speed - whatever the source, be it changes to manyshot, or just a flat increase in attack speed in general
2. A way to make arrows 100% returning - I would love to see that added to the AA tree so that all these various arrows I find are finally usefull. OR, alternately, arrows need to stack up to 10,000 and arrow drops need to come in stacks of 1000k versus the current 100.
3. More AOE options - I am talking "Shattering Arrows" that do damage to adjacent monsters on impact or "Chaining/Ricochet" arrows that will hit 1/2/3 additional targets after the first.
4. A way to consistently and constantly slow or stop the movement of enemies so that the "Kiting Archer" is a thing of the past. THIS IS A QUALITY OF LIFE CHANGE FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GROUP WITH RANGED ATTACKERS NOT NECESSARILY A BOOST TO ARCHERS. Seriously, nothing drives a party mad faster then an archer who is doing mediocre damage and running a mod around and no one else can get a hit in because it wont stop moving.

I dont care where these come from, but they need to available to most/all "Bow Users".

[Ovrad]

I see the trend continues with adding bonuses to light and medium armor.

Too bad Cloth armor, who needs the biggest boost, is still being ignored....

[Qhualor]

Too bad Cloth armor, who needs the biggest boost, is still being ignored....

the way it should be is cloth has the highest dodge with heavy having the least. this is the biggest problem I have with the PRR system. mob damage mitigation makes PRR a must for every build. instead of boosting dodge and adding dodge bonuses to cloth, light and medium classes, its adding PRR and MP for the extra incentive. since PRR is here to stay, it should be X dodge is equivalent to X PRR and go from there adding it to the armor enhancement bonuses and inherent to classes. than limit the amount of PRR available in the game making it harder for cloth to get high PRR, but heavy is easier to get. rangers should have one of the highest dodge, good evasion and good AC but AC is borked. every time I see AC in the enhancements I just laugh. to me, adding bonuses to get players to wear armor that is thematic just shows how messed up the system is and probably too far gone to properly fix it.

[LuKaSu]

~ Improved Weapon Finesse: This now also applies to Bows.


Known Issues List:



The Deepwood Stalker enhancement "Improved Weapon Finesse" is not applying to Unarmed attacks or Handwraps.


So... Will this change also fix this Known Issue?

[Kielbasa]

Another quality of life suggestion combine stealthy and faster sneaking just like the version in the assassin tree.

[J-mann]

I appreciate what you've done here and it's a good breakdown, but it is missing a couple key points:
-Bows are x3 Crit Multi to start with.
-There's a big difference in Repeater Xbow vs. Great Xbow in both Mech and this new DWS tree

Don't mean this as criticism, just adding to the conversation. Overall, I agree this tree is wildly under-powered compared to the most recent Mechanic changes which were totally over the top. I made a long list of suggestions I think would address a lot of the gap.

I also think excluding throwers from any of the beneficial changes to this tree is a mistake, as they have no other tree. They have mechanic, but it's vastly better for xbows than throwers, and barely better than Harper.

I also agree that throwers need to not be excluded from the tree, there is no reason to do this. Further I would like to see the dex to damage work so that monk/halfling is no longer a requirement for a thrower build.....

[Vellrad]

Why its dex or gtfo?

In latest updates, more and more classes becomes this class uses this stat only.

Are you planning to eventually remove str from game?

[Spekdah_NZ]

Some nice additions but I feel it's under par compared to what rogue mechanic got with it's ranged upgrade. Mechanic cores and t5 are stronger.

There is also two elephants in the room;
1. The manyshot DS cooldown
2. A 14 paladin / 6 ranger makes a far better ranged toon, hell a far better ranger in all respects due to holy sword, LoH and saves.

To get to the guts of it, where are those abilities that will have players not bother with 14 paladin, or 12 monk to play a ranger. Or at least mentally wrangle over what way to go when levelling their ranger.

I feel like because we can't address MS or HS we cannot go ahead fully with the enhancements of DWS. :-(

[SirValentine]

...we looked to raise their mitigation and provide more Melee options while strengthening many of the existing Ranged options.
...
~ Survivalist I: (2 AP) You gain 10 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 3 Physical Resistance Rating. (This is in Favored Defense's old spot).


Would this be a good time to point out that the Shadow Dragon armor upgrade a Deepwood Stalker would likely be interested in (Shadow Striker, with 20% Ranged Alacrity & 15% Melee Alacrity) is not available on Light armor, only on Medium/Heavy armors that Rangers are not proficient with and lose a class ability if they wear?

[Grailhawk]

I appreciate what you've done here and it's a good breakdown, but it is missing a couple key points:
-Bows are x3 Crit Multi to start with.

The difference between 20/x3 and 19-20/x2 is a negligible difference and do to things like seeker usually favors the 19-20/x2, unless you have some kind of crit threat range extension or multiplier increase.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Glad to see that Stalker is going to be a bit of a hybrid tree, granting both ranged and melee power. I was hoping to see exactly that.

Might I suggest granting both sniper shot and strike at six instead of making it a multi selector? The way it is now, that ability supports more of a one fighting style or the other choice and fits the old tree better than the proposed one.

The changes so far certainly seem to go a long way towards balancing things, but they seem a bit vanilla. I feel like the tree needs an additional unique ability or two to spice it up. You know, some additional things that get people thinking about themed combinations.

[QuantumFX]

The biggest omissions I see in this tree: Ranged alacrity with bows, threat/crit multi with bows and Fletching. (Arguably, these things could be in a revamped AA tree, but it would be nice to see DWS as something other than a supplemental PrE.)

[Natashaelle]

The biggest omissions I see in this tree: Ranged alacrity with bows, threat/crit multi with bows and Fletching. (Arguably, these things could be in a revamped AA tree, but it would be nice to see DWS as something other than a supplemental PrE.)

Fletching sounds like a good idea -- though it's something I'd prefer to see developed more in the Crafting rules. hmmmmm sounds like something that would be appropriate for a ranged Ranger tree that were neither DWS nor AA ...

[MrWindupBird]

Looks interesting, I'm eager to test it when it hits Lamma. Few thoughts:

General power level is hard to suss out without testing, but it looks ok-ish. Also highly contingent on other ranger trees. A lot of ranged power in cores, lots of doubleshot in T5. The activated abilities are still weak as described.

Some recommendations:
A. More favored enemy interactions. A few pts of AC/saves and +damage arent that exciting. It was mentioned elsewhere that knockdown/helpless on 20 vs favored enemy would be neat, and I agree. Another possibility: I really liked the idea of debuffs from assassin/Soul Eater, but they are somewhat balky to use. Recommended ranger version: have critical hits vs favored enemies inflict -2 melee power, -2 MRR, -2 PRR, stacks 5 times. That sort of thing works seamlessly, scales well, and further makes the class valuable to groups without having to push the DPS arms race further.

B. In the Survivalist category, add +1 max dodge and +1/+1/+2 dodge vs favored enemies. The hp bonus can be dropped a bit: 10/15/20 seems better anyway.

C. Thrill of the Hunt is still bad. First thought: +5% stacking alacrity when enemies are below 10/25/50%, but this is probably mechanically impossible. Perhaps +1/2/3 sneak attack dice instead, that should work.

D. As mentioned above, may as well have this tree work with throwing weapons. There really isnt another tree that supports them, for non-bards.

E. Manyshot, the elephant in the room. Has to be dealt with, may as well do it now, when you can balance the new trees at the same time. It will be too late if you postpone it. Suggestion: -100% doubleshot for the duration of manyshot only, shares cooldown with 10k stars (ie manyshot puts 10k on 2min cooldown, 10k puts manyshot on 1min cooldown. Can't effectively use both). Can consider attaching a -20 ranged power penalty to manyshot, but I don't think that's necessary.
The problem with manyshot has always been its extreme spikiness- excluding doubleshot for the duration and allowing it after actually is the best way to minimize this spikiness. With new enhancements/gear, something in the vicinity of 65-70% doubleshot should be sustainable. So, manyshot is 4 arrows during vs 1.7 othertimes- sounds reasonable to me: 20 secs of ~235% dps. Having a long doubleshot cooldown actually exacerbates the spikiness problem, and renders all the effort to acquire doubleshot via gear, enhancements and past lives pretty worthless. With the increasing availability of doubleshot monkchers will be fine.

Math on monkchers surviving:
120 secs, assume 1 arrow/sec fire rate (irrelevant for these purposes unless you want to discuss discrete math. Hint: you don't). Assume 2.25 arrows/10k stars, which is close to correct for 50 wis. Assume 30% doubleshot, which is only relevant for 15 secs out of 120.
old: Manyshot (20 secs x 4 arrows) + 2 x 10k stars (30 secs x 2.25 arrows) + downtime, doubleshot penalty in effect (15 secs x 1 arrow) + downtime, no doubleshot penalty (15 secs x1.3 arrows)
total # arrows: 250
New: Manyshot (20 secs x 4 arrows) + downtime, doubleshot in effect (100 secs x 1.7)
total # arrows: 250

Look at that I'm a magician.

[HatsuharuZ]

Now that we're talking about rangers and ranged combat...

Last time I was a ranger, the doubleshot penalty attached to Manyshot lasted much longer than the Manyshot effect itself. Is this still the case? If so, perhaps this would be the time to re-evaluate that? It sucks not to have any sort of doubleshot for such a large amount of time. Alternatively, a ranger enhancement for lowering the amount of time this penalty lasts would be welcome.

[mikarddo]

Math on monkchers surviving:
120 secs, assume 1 arrow/sec fire rate (irrelevant for these purposes unless you want to discuss discrete math. Hint: you don't). Assume 2.25 arrows/10k stars, which is close to correct for 50 wis. Assume 30% doubleshot, which is only relevant for 15 secs out of 120.
old: Manyshot (20 secs x 4 arrows) + 2 x 10k stars (30 secs x 2.25 arrows) + downtime, doubleshot penalty in effect (15 secs x 1 arrow) + downtime, no doubleshot penalty (15 secs x1.3 arrows)
total # arrows: 250
New: Manyshot (20 secs x 4 arrows) + downtime, doubleshot in effect (100 secs x 1.7)
total # arrows: 250

Look at that I'm a magician.

Monkchers are (also) way behind mech rogues, bards, barbs, pallies and warlocks in terms of total damage so there is no need at all to make manyshot and 10k stars exclusive.
Further, you suddenly assume 70% doubleshot after rather than 30% now and you ignore the fact that higher spikes in itself give more average dps as it lets you get more value from action boosts, adrenalines etc. than more flat damage.

Also, your math does not add up. You seem to have 20 sec + 30 sec + 15 sec + 15 sec = 120 sec which is incorrect.
I believe this should be 20 sec *4 + 60 sec *2.25 + 25 sec *1 + 15 sec *1.3 = 259.5
If you remove the DS penalty for a monkcher it would then be: 20 sec *4 + 60 sec *2.25 + 40 sec *1.3 = 267 which is a tiny increase. Even with 70% DS it would only increase from 265.5 to 283 which is still a tiny increase and way behind mech rogues in terms of shots/min.

So, there is no need to be worried about allowing monkchers to use both manyshot and 10k stars (and using 10k stars does require ki which in some cases isnt automagically available without twists, enhancements or meleeing small as the cost may be). Also, the more DS becomes available the lesser the value of 10k stars in particular if the DS penalty is removed. Sure, 10k stars may also go up from more wis but above 50 the increase isnt that large.

[mikarddo]

The change is an intentional one. We'll be bumping each stack of Archer's Focus to +3 Ranged Power to bring it a bit closer to where it was (already updated in the OP).


Its good to see you acknowledge that 2rp does not equal 2% extra damage.
Kindly give the same treatment to the action boost which is currently +10%/+20%/+30% damage and hence should be 15/30/45rp not 10/20/30rp which would be a considerable nerf to the burst dps available - and I rather doubt a nerf was the intention here.

[MrWindupBird]

Monkchers are (also) way behind mech rogues, bards, barbs, pallies and warlocks in terms of total damage so there is no need at all to make manyshot and 10k stars exclusive.
Further, you suddenly assume 70% doubleshot after rather than 30% now and you ignore the fact that higher spikes in itself give more average dps as it lets you get more value from action boosts, adrenalines etc. than more flat damage.

Also, your math does not add up. You seem to have 20 sec + 30 sec + 15 sec + 15 sec = 120 sec which is incorrect.
I believe this should be 20 sec *4 + 60 sec *2.25 + 25 sec *1 + 15 sec *1.3 = 259.5
If you remove the DS penalty for a monkcher it would then be: 20 sec *4 + 60 sec *2.25 + 40 sec *1.3 = 267 which is a tiny increase. Even with 70% DS it would only increase from 265.5 to 283 which is still a tiny increase and way behind mech rogues in terms of shots/min.

So, there is no need to be worried about allowing monkchers to use both manyshot and 10k stars (and using 10k stars does require ki which in some cases isnt automagically available without twists, enhancements or meleeing small as the cost may be). Also, the more DS becomes available the lesser the value of 10k stars in particular if the DS penalty is removed. Sure, 10k stars may also go up from more wis but above 50 the increase isnt that large.

You are correct! Scuse my math, I was getting bedroom eyes from my partner... she won that argument.

As far as 10k/manyshot interacting, the higher sustained doubleshot goes, the less important it is to disallow the use of both 10k/manyshot (1.7 arrows during regular fire is close-ish to 2.25 during 10k). You're absolutely right that monkchers are far behind mechanics except in furyshot burst, but I'm trying to future-proof a bit with my suggestion. I assume that the combined DWS/AA overhauls will place a 20ranger somewhere in the ballpark of a rogue mechanic, and if so then the current 12/6/2 monkcher might pull ahead if you do not disallow 10k/manyshot together. I'd like to avoid further DPS-creep, and the monk-AA has had a long enough time in the sun that I'd rather pure rangers were stronger anyway: it was always silly that monk AAs were superior.
I also have an ulterior motive: if monkchers become powerful again that will end up spurring further ignorance on the forum about how 'monks' are overpowered, and further backburner the much-needed unarmed overhaul, which is what I really want. Unarmed monks are terrible.

As far as 30%/70% doubleshot, that was based on the assumption that T5 DWS alone gives 20% additional doubleshot, additional DS will likely be available somewhere else through gear/new AA enhancements as it becomes relevant again.


Redoing #s:
Old system, 10k + manyshot, 30% DS:
20 sec *4 + 60 sec *2.25 + 25 sec *1 + 15 sec *1.3 = 259.5

New: no doublestrike penalty w/ 10K + manyshot together, 70% DS (ie 12/6/2)
20 sec *4 + 60 sec *2.25 + 40sec *1.7 = 283

New: no doublestrike penalty w/ manyshot alone, 70% DS (20 ranger)
20 sec *4 + 100sec *1.7 = 250

Your post seems to be concerned with whether removing doubleshot penalties would make monk AAs overpowered (it won't, directly). I'm more concerned with how they stack up vs manyshot-but-no-10k toons.

Numbers above show that the monkcher would still be getting about 13% more attacks than manyshot-alone ranger (283 vs 250). That's basically the problem I see with allowing 10k + manyshot. You can point out that the ranger may end up with higher damage per arrow due to ranged power and FE, but monk also gets +1 crit multiplier on 19-20, and movespeed (huge on a ranged toon). Incidentally at cap the ranged power difference would have to be about 30 to make up the physical damage difference. 30 ranged power very nearly adjusts for the 13% increased rate of fire, but it seems simpler to just rebase things so 10k+manyshot dont play together well, and buff enhancements so damage output with manyshot alone is at least as good as 10k+manyshot was before. It heads off future complications.

Too tired to think now, will check tomorrow. If this wasn't clear, I'm in no way trying to push monk AAs backwards or nerf them, but I would prefer that pure 20 ranger be at least as viable a ranged toon- I don't really see how that works without disallowing 10k/manyshot together.

[bbqzor]

Core Abilities

There is still very little here for melee, as Exposing Strike is not nearly as good as Sniper Shot (tons of melee bluff options, vs the only ranged bluff in the game). Yes, the melee power is not bad, but its also not too compelling against the additional attacks Tempest offers. Additionally, Mark of the Hunted is pretty weak. And there is no way (that comes to mind at least) to regenerate Animal Empathy, which makes it a much more limited option than things like Turn Undead, Lay on Hands, or other "trade a use for an effect" situations.

My suggestion would be to beef up Mark of the Hunted. Add -10 melee power to the list of effects to provide mitigation that will help melee rangers much more than ranged (who are at less risk of being hit). This mirrors the Assassins Mark style used for skirmish melee there. Also make it a very fast animation if it is not already, its been awhile since Ive tested, but it needs to cost as little to the ranger as possible to be worth hitting at all. Finally, I would have it enable your "Favored Enemy" status against that mob for its duration. I mean, thats what the name implies... and the other debuffs are pretty ancillary given how limited the applications are even with the melee power one in there. Have it give Deepwood Stalkers a way to actually *stalk* specific marked mobs, and actually use their class feature to hunt easier. This would let rangers with 18 levels in this to enable their damage and defense against critical targets, without penalizing the otherwise limited scope of their entire class damage structure (as in, frenzy works vs everything, kotc light dmg is vs everything, rog mark is vs everything... why not let rangers in this tree use a non-recharging ability to hit what 10 mobs per quest with their stuff as needed, to deal with serious mobs like Champs they can't really "select" via the normal mechanics for their class).

TLDR: Add "Marked" melee power penalty, ensure animation is fast, make it flag the mob as "favored" for other ranger abilities (like damage, ac, saves, etc).


Tier One
Fair changes.

Id like to see the timing changed on Tendon Slice. It can be a useful tool in some situations, but like anything situational it deserves to actually be good when needed. The cd and duration need to be closer together. Given that the ranged option for this is also a 10s duration, I think the easiest fix is to just make the cd on this 10s. Since it also adds W now, that gives a (slightly) more decent dps click-attack parallel to what other classes tend to see in T1. Hitting it 6x per minute instead of 4x makes it a bit more relevant, and being able to keep one mob slowed up when dealing with a tough champion or something is likewise potentially helpful. And its not a guaranteed "100% slow" since it requires a sneak attack for that portion, so having the cd/duration match seems fair given the lower number of "click attacks" this tree offers.


Tier Two
Again, fair changes.

For Survivalist, Id like to see it increase MDB by 1 as well. Rangers need dodge/ac just like rogues, though maybe not as much to differentiate them a little bit.

And also, Empathic Healing needs a change. Its pitiful, not really worth taking or clicking currently. Its competing with Mark of the Hunter and actual Empathy use for resources, the healing amount it gives is incredibly minor even with a ton of devotion or amp, and it occurs too slowly to really matter mid-fight. Other than just upping the level of vigor (to like, T1 mass vigor, T2 mass greater vigor) I'm not really sure what to suggest here, but it needs to be looked at since its not something thats really effective at all currently (though the concept of a ranger having a group heal effect is nice, if it was worthwhile numbers).


Tier Three
Mediocre changes, not much appealing here.

Again, Survivalist needs +1 MDB.

The damage enhancements suffer from restrictions. Either only working under 50%, or only working vs favored enemies, really undermines the actual damage they provide. Mobs tend to die faster the lower they are... various effects start kicking in, or they qualify for something like Execute, or what have you. And even with all 5 favored enemies plus 1 from an epic destiny or something, there are just too many variables to cover on that front. *IF* you add the "favored" status to Mark as I suggest, this is mitigated somewhat, but otherwise this is just a weak tier of enhancements.

Look at it this way. Just an enhancement which is +1 sneak die adds 3.5 per swing. If you figure +3 vs mobs under half works exactly half the time, its worth 1.5 damage. If half the foes you fight are favored enemies, thats worth 1.5. Even together (at a cost of 6 AP), thats less return than that one single sneak die. Its just not good returns.

I would like to see "favored" added to the Mark ability to make that one more reliable, and maybe up the damage on Thrill of the Hunt to +1/3/5 damage... so it sort of mirrors "power attack" when mobs are under half (and at an average of 2.5, or less if you account for mobs dying faster as they get lower, its at least closer to the 1ap = 1dmg pricing you see come up all over the place elsewhere).



Tier Four
Some nice changes here.

Again, Survivalist needs 1 MDB. Rangers should be able to get dodge and dex to ac too.

Hunters Mercy is a good treatment, but Id like to see at least 200% on the damage scaling. Rogues got 400% scaling (though only when under 30% vs rangers 50% cutoff). So less scaling seems fair. But again, I want to explicitly point out, stuff like *this exact ability* is precisely why Thrill of the Hunt is underwhelming. I think if this went to 200% scaling, and Thrill scaled up as 1/3/5, you'd start to see where Stalkers could start to play around ending wounded mobs quickly.. which sort of mirrors a hunter trailing a woulded animal to dispatch it. Thematic and effective is a win... dont be afraid to make these actually compare to what other classes have out there guys.


Tier Five
Some okay changes.

Extra Favored Enemy should really cost 1... if youre sinking your T5 here, and need FE to power at least 1 enhancement/tier, it ought to give you this with as little tax as possible just so you can even use the tree you bothered to spend 30+ points in. Even if Mark added Favored status, thats only on individual mobs, its still work taking this just to fight trash... but theres no reason to ding people AP points over that reality. Ranger stuff doesnt work 24/7, fighting up that hill shouldn't cost extra AP to boot.

Head Shot is okay I guess... the ranged blind would enable ranged sneak which is good to try and let the class utilize its abilities better. 6s is a bit of a short window though considering it has a save that has basically no way to boost it to a useful value (look even at dex 100, the DC on this thing would land at like 79... with a dex value of like 50 its only 54, nothings going to fail a 54 fort basically ever at 20+). I would make it blind for 10s on a fail, 3s on a pass or something. That way it always enables a few sneak attacks even with a lame dc formula. And for melee, means at least a few extra misses due to mob being blind helping you survive better. I just dont want to see this get dragged down over a bad dc formula, too many abilities suffer that already.

Stalker Training and Strikes like Lightning are nice.

And Heavy Draw was good before... but maybe needs a melee option. Perhaps it could be a multi-selector with Heavy Draw on one, and then Heavy Handed on the other. Heavy Handed, requires Power Attack, your Power Attack stance does +3 damage when toggled on, but an extra -3 on attack. That way melee can kind of "catch up" on the other "additional power attack" choices here. So ranged guys enable any they might have, while melee guys basically get access to one. Would be nice they didn't get left out here.

OVERALL:

Improvements, and many good ones. But ultimately many things are still situational (they require sneak attack, or a crit, or a favored enemy, or use a non-regenerating empathy, or the mob to be under half hp, or whatever). That stops the tree from really employing all its abilities at one time together, which means its much harder to bring it to bear like other "dps" trees.

I think many of my suggestions are aimed at trying to counter that, either by opening up the up-time for those situations, and making sure that different builds have parallel choices available. Rangers should get MDB, should have a way to "turn on" favored status, should have parallel options for melee and ranged (especially in this tree which is the 50/50 sort of tree), and should have things which scale well into epic and against other trees.

Hope the feedback helps. Thanks.

[bbqzor]

Read some postings after getting my impressions up and wanted to comment on two good ideas I saw.

One: Favored Hunter in T3, being changed to +1/2/3 atk, and +1/2/3 W damage. That will help make it relevant and combat its low percentage of up-time, and make the core class mechanic of Favored Enemy stand out a little more. Because, seriously... its +10 damage even with all five choices. In perspective thats virtually nothing compared to other "modern" classes. This is a really good and really easy way to elevate something completely lackluster (+1-3 dmg) into something purposeful (+1-3W).

Two: Extra Favored Enemy in T5, being changed from a 6th choice, to a +2W vs all FE bonus. Combined with the above, thats 5W vs FE, thats enough to actually matter. Its also enough to somewhat say it parallels barbarians getting 6d6 frenzy, or paladins getting 7d6 light damage, its rangers getting 5dX but only vs FE (if this and favored hunter combined in that fashion). It puts rangers on the map.

I think this, plus what I have above, and Deepwood really starts to come together. They would get legitimate damage against FE which emphasis the core ranger mechanics, have a few ways to more easily dispatch wounded targets, have a good mix of ranged or melee choices, and some defensive choices too. Thats a decent package for the 'middling' ranger tree. Thanks.

[Doctorivil]

At a point of the game where the Attack bonus and the AC hardly matter, I'd like so suggest a change to the Shot on the Run (SotR) Feat.
It would be cool if SotR could let you keep your archer focus even when moving.
It sounds a bit strong but archer focus is running against improved precise shot that ~doubles the damage, and it is a 3 feat chain to get there.

[kmoustakas]

I would like to start by saying it's nice to see outdated abilities being updated/removed. Favoured defense was especially a pain considering cost and being a prerequisite.

Secondly I would like to say I'm terrified of the numbers of melee/ranged power being thrown around but that's only because I don't understand it very much. A blatant +20 or +30 to ranged power sounds holysword overpowered. But we need maths experts here, not my fear of things we do not fully understand.

[Arkai]

The biggest omissions I see in this tree: Ranged alacrity with bows, threat/crit multi with bows and Fletching. (Arguably, these things could be in a revamped AA tree, but it would be nice to see DWS as something other than a supplemental PrE.)

Bingo.

But I think we need a couple of threat/crit multi at tier 5 of BOTH trees.

And if somebody thinks this is OP, please check the game status for Paladins, Mechanics, Bards, etc, as some people stated before.

[legendkilleroll]

Bingo.

But I think we need a couple of threat/crit multi at tier 5 of BOTH trees.

And if somebody thinks this is OP, please check the game status for Paladins, Mechanics, Bards, etc, as some people stated before.

Those are OP classes so no point following that route and doing the same to rangers, this OP mess needs to stop

I get people want their fav class/build to be strong but hearing OP and game too easy yet when these Trees show up, you get people trying to get them buffed to stupidly OP

Devs need to tone down those classes instead of leaving them as are and having them as the benchmark

I dont hate rangers, just don't want the trend to continue

[Kawai]

At a point of the game where the Attack bonus and the AC hardly matter, I'd like so suggest a change to the Shot on the Run (SotR) Feat.
It would be cool if SotR could let you keep your archer focus even when moving.
It sounds a bit strong but archer focus is running against improved precise shot that ~doubles the damage, and it is a 3 feat chain to get there.

+1 for the only thing worth skimming over in this entire thread.

[mikarddo]

Redoing #s:
Old system, 10k + manyshot, 30% DS:
20 sec *4 + 60 sec *2.25 + 25 sec *1 + 15 sec *1.3 = 259.5

New: no doublestrike penalty w/ 10K + manyshot together, 70% DS (ie 12/6/2)
20 sec *4 + 60 sec *2.25 + 40sec *1.7 = 283

New: no doublestrike penalty w/ manyshot alone, 70% DS (20 ranger)
20 sec *4 + 100sec *1.7 = 250


The monkcher wont have 20% DS from T5 DWS though so your comparison seems a bit off. Asking for manyshot and 10k to be mutually exclusive would remove the core of a build, namely the monkcher, which seems rather odd as more not less options are needed.

As far as I can tell the changes to DWS is a slight nerf to monkchers actually. Action boost has gotten cheaper which may free 2ap on a monkcher build for use elsewhere but for now the +30% damage has been downgraded to +30rp which is strictly inferior for a monkcher atleast. So, your idea that monkchers need further nerfing seems very off base - its not like you see alot of monkchers these days and its for a reason.

Mind, I dont expect buffs to the monkcher from the ranger pass - but I certainly dont expect to be nerfed in the process either.

[btolson]

Tier One
~ Favored Defense: AP cost reduced to 1/1/1 AP. Is no longer a multi-selector, but instead gives the following benefits against Favored Enemies: +2/+4/+6 to Armor Class, +1/+2/+3 Saving Throws


I wonder if there is something more interesting that can be added here. Like a guard-proc against all attacks made by your FEs... a sort of riposte? with a chance to inflict a -10% attack speed and -20 spell power debuff?





Tier Three
~ Favored Hunter: (1/1/1 AP) You gain +1/+2/+3 to hit and damage against favored enemies. (This moved horizontally to the middle of Tier 3)



I think you can safely increase this damage. Bonus damage against FEs used to be pretty substantial in years past, but with all the relatively recent additions of deadly items and +[w]'s and whatnot, FE bonus damage has lost a lot of its relative impact and attractiveness. Of course this is something that may be better solved by changing the FE feats to grant +3 damage or even +[w] instead of +2 damage.


Beyond that though, I feel something should be done to make combat against FEs more noticeable and dramatic. Something that you can really "feel". Here is an idea to be worked in IDK where, perhaps as a rider on t5 Extra Favored Enemy, based somewhat on KotC's passive stun chance against evil outsiders:

Favored Wrath
Whenever you strike one of your favored enemies, you have a 10% chance to inflict one of the following:
- a 2-second stun
- deal +100% damage (not a crit, just +100% damage similar to adrenaline)
- reduce it's fortification by 100% for 6 seconds
- a 3-second knockdown

Notice that some of these effects will only really work against fleshie/living FEs (e.g. the stun), some will really only work against non-living FEs (e.g. -100% fort --fleshies usually don't have any to begin with), while some will work equally well against all FEs (e.g. +100% damage). You can add or subtract from this list as you see fit; I aimed for an approximately equal number of "Good Things to Hit Fleshies With" vs "Good Things to Hit Non-Fleshies With" to keep all FEs on roughly equal footing.







Tier Five
~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)
* Head Shot: Ranged Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.
* Head Strike: Melee Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.



This DC is not really competitive even today, and a year from now when mob saves in newest content have gone up another +10, this DC will be nearly unchanged unless you intend to release +20 stat items or something. I'd say base it off char level instead of ranger to help shore it up. We're talking about a single-target blind with lowish uptime even if you have 95% to beat their saves; no need to fear the MCs when core3 already offers 100% chance to make sneak attacks on your target.


Also, 15 second cooldown is still too long. Way too long. This ability should be more competitive with permanent +2 threat range (as found in kensei, ravager, holy sword and approximately swashbuckler t5). It could then serve as a novel ability to mimic the power of those abilities, without actually being identical in form to them.



Considering that a vanilla archer can make about 2 attacks per second (factoring in avg manyshot uptime, alacrity and some fraction of double shot), then an extra +2 threat => +10% crit chance would yield an average 0.2 crits per second, or ~3 extra crits per 15 seconds.

Considering that a TWFer can make about 3 attacks per second, then an extra +2 threat => +10% crit chance would yield an average 0.3 crits per second, or 4.5 extra crits per 15 seconds.

Since headshot offers only 1 extra crit per 15 seconds, it is clearly far, far weaker than a permanent +2 threat for either ranged attacks or especially TWF, making this a poor t5.

If we were aiming for equivalency, then the ranged version of headshot should have a cooldown of 5 seconds (call it 6 for the +5[w] and blind chance), and the melee version of headshot should have a cooldown of ~3 seconds (call it 4 for the same reasons). But, such a cooldown would be too short for the simple reason that I don't want to spam headshot every 4 or 6 seconds in perpetuity.


So, we need to add more power to it. We could make the headshot also apply +100% damage on the guaranteed crit (I was going to suggest +multiplier, but that would get too crazy with adrenaline). This doubles the value of the guaranteed crit, so we could then double the calculated cooldown from above, to 12 seconds for the ranged version and 8 seconds for the melee version.

Additionally, we need to make it exclusive with competence bonuses to threat range, since we are aiming for equivalency and therefore exclusivity with that effect (namely holy sword and pulverizer, since kensei is t5 and already exclusive). This should be easily accomplished with an on-equip weapon effect -- let's call it "Deepwood Decapitator" for now -- packaged into the headshot abilities. This weapon effect will do 2 things:
- on application, any competence bonuses to threat range will be dispelled
- while present, the weapon is immune to competence bonuses to threat range
(if you don't have a way to provide general immunity to competence bonuses to threat, then holy sword and pulverizer must fail to apply if "Deepwood Decapitator" is present)

Text will need to be added to the Headshot ability to reflect this immunity to competence bonuses.

This will give us a unique version of crit profile enhancement, with no need to worry about holy sword splits becoming (remaining?) the go-to ranger builds.



Empathic Healing: This is both too weak (in terms of effect and usage limitation), and too expensive. It will not be easy to beat it into shape though, being only t2 and highly poachable. One approach is to leave it where it is, and boost it through cores.

E.g.,
core2 gains: If you have Empathic Healing, it now receives 3 additional caster levels.
core3 gains: If you have Empathic Healing, it now receives a total of 6 additional caster levels.
core4 gains: If you have Empathic Healing, it now becomes Vigor/Mass Vigor and receives a total of 9 additional caster levels.
core5 gains: If you have Empathic Healing, it now becomes Greater Vigor/Mass Greater Vigor and receives a total of 12 additional caster levels.
core6 gains: If you have Empathic Healing, it now receives a total of 18 additional caster levels.

Being capped at 6? uses per shrine and competing with core5 active for uses, I don't think Greater Vigor at cl 38 is too much for a pure 20 ranger.




I think something missing from this tree is a defensive cooldown. Maybe a big PRR boost, or a big +concealment or +incorp boost, with a short duration and 1-2 minute CD.

[mezzorco]

Are you going to add any spell to the ranger spell list?
Currently for a pure ranger choosing a worthy 3rd level spell to slot is quite difficult.

Maybe you could change Empathic Healing to add Vigor to the 3rd level ranger spell list.

[Qhualor]

Are you going to add any spell to the ranger spell list?
Currently for a pure ranger choosing a worthy 3rd level spell to slot is quite difficult.

Maybe you could change Empathic Healing to add Vigor to the 3rd level ranger spell list.

i would also like to know this. ranger spells are in dire need of help.

[Delacroix21]

Is the tempest tree getting an update as well?

[Renvar]

My first impression of the tree is: Good, but not good enough.

RP adds are good. I like the HP/mitigation. I like the consolidation of some of the favored enemy stuff to make room. Those are the positives.

Negatives:

- MP adds. Not sure why this is here. Rogues have Assassin for melee DPS and mechanic for ranged DPS. and Acro for staff focus/flavor. Pally has KoTC for melee DPS, SD for tanking/defense, and Vanguard for S&B focus/flavor. The ranger tree should follow suit. DWS for ranged DPS, Tempest for Melee DPS, and AA for bow flavor/focus. If a ranger wants more MP, put points in the tempest tree. Giving some ranged and some melee in one tree ends up with meh ranged and meh melee. That's not a fun place to be.

- No crit range or modifier boosts. This is a sniper. Snipers do devastating damage with one shot. That translates into more crits and bigger crits. And not just on a clicky. The mechanic has Expert Builder and Sniper. Not to mention the 5 tiers of sharpshooter. The best single targe, single shot ranged DPS is still a mechanic rogue after this tree is done. By far.

- No attack speed boosts. Rogues have Rapid fire and mechanical reloader both. DWS has nothing. Now if you are going to put that in AA, then OK. Maybe we aren't seeing the whole picture. But as it is, Manyshot means that adding some doubleshot isn't enough. You need some alacrity boosts somewhere.

[Bennum]

I really like what I am seeing here, good stuff so far. Also hoping for buffs/ clean up to Tempest and AA.

[Kielbasa]

~ Mark of the Hunted: The Fortification debuff has been raised from 10% to 25%. It now reads: "Activate: Expend a use of Animal Empathy. Your target gains -25% Fortification, -10 Armor Class, -10 Spell Resistance, and suffers a -4 penalty to all ability scores for 3 minutes."

Even with the buff this is still worse than assassin's trick which essentially does the same thing on a 6 second timer.

If you really want to make 18 levels of ranger worth something change it to:
Mark of the Hunter: a self buff that doubles your favored enemy bonuses and allows you to bypass 25% of their fortification. 20 second duration like most action boosts limited by animal empathy uses. That would increase the value of favored defense and accuracy as well as the enhancements that grant more animal empathy uses. A level 20 deepwood stalker could get short bursts of +3 hit, +15 damage, +6 ac, +3 saves against 6 types of favored enemies if they took all the relevant enhancements.

Compared to things like lethality, expert builder, or cartwheel charge that kind of buff is still kind of weak but it would be a huge improvement in the right direction.

[Renvar]

This sounds like you still need the weapon Finesse Feat. Can this be changed to: Adds Dex to damage with bows. Also, adds Dex to damage with finessable weapons if you have the Weapon Finesse feat.

That way you keep the versatility for those who want to switch between ranged and melee combat, but don't force a feat on someone that only wants to be a ranged character.

Just a thought. :)

Makes sense. Targeting Sights in Rogue Mechanic Tree just gives INT for damage to crossbows and thrown weapons. No need to have a feat. Assassins get the same with Daggers and Kukri. No need for a feat there, either.

All the recent tree adds have not linked anything to a feat. Keeping the ranged weapons add in DWS tied to finesse would be a step back for them.

[Grailhawk]

- MP adds. Not sure why this is here. Rogues have Assassin for melee DPS and mechanic for ranged DPS. and Acro for staff focus/flavor. Pally has KoTC for melee DPS, SD for tanking/defense, and Vanguard for S&B focus/flavor. The ranger tree should follow suit. DWS for ranged DPS, Tempest for Melee DPS, and AA for bow flavor/focus. If a ranger wants more MP, put points in the tempest tree. Giving some ranged and some melee in one tree ends up with meh ranged and meh melee. That's not a fun place to be.

You have this backwards AA is the Ranged Tree, Tempest is the Melee tree, Deepwood Stalker is the hybrid flavor tree. Deepwood is where favored enemy enhancements, devotion enhancements and other general purpose Ranger things are placed.

[Grailhawk]

Bonus
Stalker
Kight of the Chalice


Weapon Procs
5d6
7d6 +500 vorpal damage to undead


Damage
9.5
Divine Might


[W]
0
0


To-Hit
3
8


Melee Power
40
15


Doublestrike
30%
0%*


Alacrity
0%
0%


Crit Multiplier
0
0*


Crit Threat
0
0*




So the comparison of Stalker to Knight of the Chalice is more favorable and looks good enough but that's only if you ignore that Paladins have holy sword and zeal once those two things are factored in rangers is blown out of the water, even factoring free feats and Favored Enemy damage Paladins enhancement cleaves, and Smites counter those.

Sources


Stalker
+5d6 Sneak Attack (Core 1,2,4,6, and Stealthy)
+3 To-Hit vs FE (Favored Hunter)
+9.5 Damage (Heavy Draw, Favored Hunter, and Thrill of the Hunt(3*0.5=1.5 avg))
Always in Point Blank Shot Range
+40 Melee Power (Core 4, 6, and With Bow and Sword)
+30% Doublestrike (Strikes Like Lightning + Killer)


+8 To Hit (Cores +5 all creatures, +3 Evil creatures)
+7d6 Light Damage (Cores)
+15 Melee Power (Champion of Good, Empowered Smite)
500 Damage vs Undead on Vorpal (Slayer of Evil III)
Good Weapons (Champion of Good)
Divine Might


IMO the Mark of the Hunter needs a killer app to make this tree worth wiled I like the idea of +1 crit multiplier and/or threat but you have options.

[Thar]

If you're talking about soloing then yes I'd agree. but if you're working with melees you can let them engage first and target their mobs, should allow you to build up the stacks without attracting too much attention especially if you have any items to reduce ranged aggro.

Also useful in some boss fights, again as long as you don't draw aggro.

true as long as melee is keeping agro. often the archer fires first and all the mobs rush past the melee... then my guildie ranger dies wonders why he hates the toon and the mobs all come back.

it is a little amusing.

[Thar]

IMO the Mark of the Hunter needs a killer app to make this tree worth wiled I like the idea of +1 crit multiplier and/or threat but you have options.

Ranger needs an expanded crit somewhere. DWS is the logical place so it can apply to both ranged and melee.

[Darthbadger]

I rather like that they are making a blended tree for the class of Ranger for some more variety in classes; that is exactly what this tree should be. I am glad to see them not try to recreate the mechanic tree. That said, some good and bad things:

Good: The cost reduction for many of the low tiers is good. Spending 8 or 9 AP for fast sneak movement was really stupid. Having cheaper accesses to the good parts of favored enemies (rather than feeling like you are paying a huge AP tax) is good.

Archer's focus as RP is fine; consolidates and simplifies calculations even if it scales less into epics. I can live with that.

Improved weapon finesse for bows is good. Makes a choice of losing a feat but consolidating attribute scores. But also being stuck with finesse-able weapons. Tough choices is good.

Mostly I like that this is a blended tree. This is for those of us who may not be min/maxers and value flexibility more than squeezing every ounce out of that one big ability. Strikes like lightening I feel is an appropriately powerful T5 ability and gives this blended tree a nice cap.


Bad: The AC bonus for favored enemies is still garbage. Maybe type it as dodge instead? Or is dodge going to be in tempest?

Tendon cut is still dreadful. Rangers have lots and lots of active clickie abilities. I would never bother with this one.

Head shot/strike needs to be rethought. Would it be possible to code this to be very destructive (and I mean auto-helpless, massive +W modifier, or other really cool thing) to favored enemies but useless on other mobs? I think that would fit better in the theme of the tree. If so, also make cooldown longer if concerned about OP. This would really spice up the tree and give it something unique. At moment this ability is a really not good T5 ability.

Other thoughts:
I was hoping to see some pet enhancement boosts in here. The fact that I don't implies rangers are not going to get their pets. Correct? If so I think that's a shame.

With the PRR/MRR changes rangers still have survivability issues. And I don't think the PRR additions in this tree is the correct direction to resolve this. I'd rethink the PRR and consider some dodge/concealment bumps instead. Rangers should be dodgy and good at avoiding magic and damage, but have real issues with spike damage when they do get hit. Right now and with these proposed changes have the worst of both worlds: not enough dodge but also insufficient PRR. This still will be a massive nudge for melee rangers to wear heavy armor in epics. This may be resolved in the other trees but just some things to consider.

Overall I give these changes a....B. (borderline B+, definitely headed in right direction) Totally arbitrary. You're welcome.

[Thar]

Is the tempest tree getting an update as well?

All three trees need updates. for variety of cost and minute benefit reasons.

[Thar]

With the PRR/MRR changes rangers still have survivability issues. And I don't think the PRR additions in this tree is the correct direction to resolve this. I'd rethink the PRR and consider some dodge/concealment bumps instead. Rangers should be dodgy and good at avoiding magic and damage, but have real issues with spike damage when they do get hit. Right now and with these proposed changes have the worst of both worlds: not enough dodge but also insufficient PRR. This still will be a massive nudge for melee rangers to wear heavy armor in epics. This may be resolved in the other trees but just some things to consider.

Overall I give these changes a....B. (borderline B+, definitely headed in right direction) Totally arbitrary. You're welcome.

I'd have to give it a C (B- for positive dps changes with melee/range power, but averaged with a D for no big wow abillity to compete with holy sword, coup de gra, barb con wail abillity AND D- for not addressing the prr issue enough for all versions of ranger cloth or light armor. some across the board defensive bumps are needed for dodge, AC, and PRR. as any one is not going to compete with the other classes due to light armor being so far behind with BAB * 1/2 for the prr calculation even with rangers having a good bab. why a ranger who has same bab would go from 12 prr for that part of the calc to 26 prr for heavy armor isn't fair. the armor alone should have a difference. the rest is the skill of the character which would be the same.

Light armor 10 2 + BAB/2 = 22 for lvl 20
Medium armor 20 4 + 2/3*BAB = 37 for lvl 20
Heavy armor 30 6 + BAB = 56 for lvl 20

that's too mucha jump for plate to be 34 prr more than a ranger can obtain without spending feats and losing evasion making them bad at spell damage then too.

[mezzorco]

I was hoping to see some pet enhancement boosts in here. The fact that I don't implies rangers are not going to get their pets. Correct? If so I think that's a shame.

It, indeed, is a shame.

[Darthbadger]

I'll also add that I oppose the +1 crit multiplier being pushed multiple times in this thread.

Yes, that multiplier is in so many trees right now and so ranger will be "behind" because of that lack.

But, the crit multiplier has become a lazy dps boost that equates to: Which tree will you get your multiplier from?" It is very vanilla and not creative and has been breeding like a bunny through the enhancement trees.

I'm much rather see a thematically unique ability or strategy. Like a combined "haste/damage boost" clickie or some truly massive boost/ability to favored enemies or something similar to, but better than, elaborate parry. Something unique, thematic, and not focused on pure DPS.

I'll admit that this suggestion would be more palatable if the game were no so totally raw DPS at the moment.

[Darthbadger]

I'd have to give it a C (B- for positive dps changes with melee/range power, but averaged with a D for no big wow abillity to compete with holy sword, coup de gra, barb con wail abillity AND D- for not addressing the prr issue enough for all versions of ranger cloth or light armor. some across the board defensive bumps are needed for dodge, AC, and PRR. as any one is not going to compete with the other classes due to light armor being so far behind with BAB * 1/2 for the prr calculation even with rangers having a good bab. why a ranger who has same bab would go from 12 prr for that part of the calc to 26 prr for heavy armor isn't fair. the armor alone should have a difference. the rest is the skill of the character which would be the same.

Light armor 10 2 + BAB/2 = 22 for lvl 20
Medium armor 20 4 + 2/3*BAB = 37 for lvl 20
Heavy armor 30 6 + BAB = 56 for lvl 20

that's too mucha jump for plate to be 34 prr more than a ranger can obtain without spending feats and losing evasion making them bad at spell damage then too.

Well, I disagree, in part. The issue is the trade off. I mean, this is a huge problem in the game right now with PRR (so I agree with you there). But I don't think the solution is to just make light armor have the same PRR BAB bonus. You do get other benefits from wearing light or cloth; and I enjoy the choice aspect of this. The problem for ranger (IMHO) is that they are getting screwed both ways--bad PRR and insufficient dodge. So my thought (as I mentioned) was to try to add some thematically appropriate dodge and not try to bump up the PRR. Also agree that there is no wow in tree, but I did suggest an idea for one.

I do agree though that the suvivability issue with cloth/light is not addressed in THIS tree, but I will wait for the Tempest tree before I totally flip out. I do, however, disagree with you that the solution direction being a PRR boost or BAB change to the armor formula.

[Severlin]

Some thoughts from the feedback:

~ Tempest is coming soon. We plan to have it as part of U28.

~ Arcane Archer will follow in a patch sometime after U28, but before U29. The tree is extremely complicated in both design and implementation and we need extra time to give it the attention it needs.

~ This tree is meant to add Versatility and DPS that stacks well on top of other trees. As such we don't expect this tree alone to provide the DPS of, say, Tempest or Swashbuckler because it is a good tree to take to stack on top of main DPS trees

~ Getting Dexterity damage to bows won't require Weapon Finesse, which is a melee oriented feat. In fact, we will probably drop the feat requirement entirely. If you want to get Dexterity to damage and don't care about Dexteirty To Hit then we will probably just allow that. We are looking into including Thrown Weapons in this based on player feedback.

~ We plan on also adding Tactical DC bonuses to the blind effect of Headshot/Headstrike so it scales with gear. We agree that the base DC won't scale well enough at the top end.

~ We are (admittedly slowly) replacing many instances of %damage with Melee or Ranged power. We are making most on hit effect scale with Ranged or Melee Power and thus we are moving towards that system. As we do so it will make remaining abilities that still use %damage be potent for a time as other sources are converted. We understand this.

Sev~

[EllisDee37]

~ Getting Dexterity damage to bows won't require Weapon Finesse, which is a melee oriented feat. In fact, we will probably drop the feat requirement entirely. If you want to get Dexterity to damage and don't care about Dexteirty To Hit then we will probably just allow that. We are looking into including Thrown Weapons in this based on player feedback.Both thrown weapons and bows default to Dexterity To Hit, so the only thing there is to care about for range is Dexterity To Damage. Currently on live the only way I'm aware of to get Dexterity To Damage with a bow is an elf enhancement. It really needs to be a ranger enhancement, and also really shouldn't require a feat.

Sounds like that's the direction you're going, so all good, carry on.

[Severlin]

Both thrown weapons and bows default to Dexterity To Hit, so the only thing there is to care about for range is Dexterity To Damage. Currently on live the only way I'm aware of to get Dexterity To Damage with a bow is an elf enhancement. It really needs to be a ranger enhancement, and also really shouldn't require a feat.

Sounds like that's the direction you're going, so all good, carry on.

When I was talking about applying Dexterity to Hit I was speaking about the melee portion of the enhancement.

Sev~

[Grailhawk]

~ This tree is meant to add Versatility and DPS that stacks well on top of other trees. As such we don't expect this tree alone to provide the DPS of, say, Tempest or Swashbuckler because it is a good tree to take to stack on top of main DPS trees


I have no real problem with that, the tree does already seam to meet that goal with just the changes suggested here, it compete well with Harper. What I would suggest given that is a "second tree" is to add some dodge/max dodge/max armor class.

I also thing trying to fit in a Pet enhancements line like the one found in Enlightens Spirit, along with a Pet like the Pale Master Skeleton is a good idea just to silence all the D&D purists who want rangers to have pets if you put a few enhancements in Stalker to do this it would shut them up and let those of us who like the class as it is totally ignore the pet.

[EllisDee37]

When I was talking about applying Dexterity to Hit I was speaking about the melee portion of the enhancement.

Sev~Yep, I realized that a bit late, but my concern for bows getting Dex to Damage stands. Melee can get Dexterity To Hit by spending 6 AP in the Tempest tree. (Second core.) Melee can also get Dexterity To Damage by spending 11 AP in Tempest. (Third core.)

By contrast, a longbow (or shortbow) ranger gets Dexterity To Hit by default, but there is no way in the entire game to get Dexterity To Damage except to be an Elf (not a Half-Elf, not a Drow, not a Morninglord; ONLY an Elf) and spend 17 AP in the racial tree. That's hugely limiting for build design.

You can't even choose from a handful of named bows. There's a half dozen or more named Daggers, Quarterstaffs, and other melee weapons that offer Dex to Damage. But no named bows do.

Putting Dexterity To Damage for bows in the Deepwood Stalker tree seems fine to me. Just please don't make it cost a feat, and also don't put it too far out of reach. Dex-based bow builds right now essentially have to spend all their AP in the Elf tree for the first 4+ levels of a life. It'd be nice to have more flexibility than that.

[PsychoBlonde]

Why its dex or gtfo?

In latest updates, more and more classes becomes this class uses this stat only.

Are you planning to eventually remove str from game?

Being ABLE to use something doesn't mean that you're OBLIGATED to, you know. There are quite a few builds in the game that can use an alternate stat but are staggeringly sub-optimal for many things if they do so. The point is to have OPTIONS.

[jakeelala]

Yep, I realized that a bit late, but my concern for bows getting Dex to Damage stands. Melee can get Dexterity To Hit by spending 6 AP in the Tempest tree. (Second core.) Melee can also get Dexterity To Damage by spending 11 AP in Tempest. (Third core.)

By contrast, a longbow (or shortbow) ranger gets Dexterity To Hit by default, but there is no way in the entire game to get Dexterity To Damage except to be an Elf (not a Half-Elf, not a Drow, not a Morninglord; ONLY an Elf) and spend 17 AP in the racial tree. That's hugely limiting for build design.

You can't even choose from a handful of named bows. There's a half dozen or more named Daggers, Quarterstaffs, and other melee weapons that offer Dex to Damage. But no named bows do.

Putting Dexterity To Damage for bows in the Deepwood Stalker tree seems fine to me. Just please don't make it cost a feat, and also don't put it too far out of reach. Dex-based bow builds right now essentially have to spend all their AP in the Elf tree for the first 4+ levels of a life. It'd be nice to have more flexibility than that.

I would like to echo my support for these sentiments.

Current sources of Dex to Damage:
Bows: Elf Tree, no weapons
Thrown: Halfing tree, 3 Monk (Ninja Spy)

By comparison, every single class can get Int to damage with any class or racial make up (Harper)
Obviously Strength is the default for all except bows, which requires a Feat (bow strength)
Bards can choose for melee between Int, Cha, or Dex.

Bards can choose to use their wildly OP weapon choices between 4 stats (including Strength by default).

Surely you can provide a simple way for other builds to use Dex with ranged/thrown weapons somewhere.

Frankly, you should make Zen Archery provide Wisdom to Hit AND Damage for bows, though that doesn't have much to do with DWS.

[ValariusK]

When do we expect to see the first cut of Tempest? As the developer pointed out, typically you'll have something like Tempest-41/DWS-31/scraps to the rest. That's when we can judge the first elephant in the room (Pally-15/Ranger-5).

[CrackedIce]

Some thoughts from the feedback:

~ This tree is meant to add Versatility and DPS that stacks well on top of other trees. As such we don't expect this tree alone to provide the DPS of, say, Tempest or Swashbuckler because it is a good tree to take to stack on top of main DPS trees

Sev~

That is all and well and good. Which I really do appreciate how its coming together.

But please keep in mind that you still do not want to invalidate the tier 5 of deepwood sniper since taking a 5th tier is limiting the DPS options of using AA or Tempest 5th tier. i.e. make sure that the 5th tier has enough oomph to warrant not taking tempest/AA tier 5. Example - taking good account of those comments regarding the last tier of deepwood into consideration.

Thanks.

[Severlin]

When do we expect to see the first cut of Tempest? As the developer pointed out, typically you'll have something like Tempest-41/DWS-31/scraps to the rest. That's when we can judge the first elephant in the room (Pally-15/Ranger-5).

Soon.

Sev~

[DevilYouKnow]

When do we expect to see the first cut of Tempest? As the developer pointed out, typically you'll have something like Tempest-41/DWS-31/scraps to the rest. That's when we can judge the first elephant in the room (Pally-15/Ranger-5).

There is nothing wrong with 15 paladin / 5 ranger. This is a feature brought forth by multiclassing itself.

Why is that so hard to understand ? People should stop complaining about what others do with their toons.

This is no one's business ! Sometimes i feel like being in kindergarten again...

[btolson]

There is nothing wrong with 15 paladin / 5 ranger. This is a feature brought forth by multiclassing itself.

Why is that so hard to understand ? Peopel should stop complaining about what others do with their toons.

This is no ones business !

15/5 is indeed fine. But it should not be only the top DPS option.

[DevilYouKnow]

15/5 is indeed fine. But it should not be only the top DPS option.

It is not ! There are far better options than that. Also what others do with their build does not concern anyone.

[btolson]

~ This tree is meant to add Versatility and DPS that stacks well on top of other trees. As such we don't expect this tree alone to provide the DPS of, say, Tempest or Swashbuckler because it is a good tree to take to stack on top of main DPS trees


I guess that's generally OK, but t5's still need to be strongly competitive, or else they are nothing but wasted design.

[Severlin]

I guess that's generally OK, but t5's still need to be strongly competitive, or else they are nothing but wasted design.

Agreed.

Sev~

[Grailhawk]

It is not ! There are far better options than that. Also what others do with their build does not concern anyone.

What you are saying is that ranger levels 6-20 should be inherently weaker then paladin 1-15. That's not balanced and needs to be addressed. If a 20 Ranger was in the same ball park as a 15/5 Paladin that would be fine its not the case today, a 15/5 Paladin is much better then a 20 Ranger, this is all because of Holy Sword.

[PsychoBlonde]

I think there ought to be a full multi-tier chain of Extra Favored Enemy that will let you get SEVERAL. Or, how about this:

Hunter's Mark: 2W attack. Applies a Mark on targeted enemy that temporarily enables you to treat it as a Favored Enemy.

or how about making the Tier 5 one be:

Supreme Enmity:
Multiselector
Humanoids (all player races)
Outsiders (all outsiders)
Magical (all magical beasts, fey, dragons, constructs, monstrous humanoids, giants)
Natural (animals, oozes, plants, vermin, elementals)

Then you could use your regular favored enemy abilities to fill in the other stuff. Note I left undead off those lists on purpose, too. There are so many undead in the game that the undead category is practically mandatory and would make any greater category absurd. It's basically a greater category already by itself. Really should be Necromantic Flesh (vampires, zombies, weird misc. stuff like Cinderspawn and Eye Tyrants), Skeletons, Incorporeal Undead to be properly equivalent to other categories. If you wanted to make the categories interesting, you could make it a requirement for selecting any greater category that you already have one of the lesser categories that it covers as a favored enemy type. Also I'd highly recommend adding a secondary effect to each of the categories like:

Humanoids (attacks apply stacks of vulnerable)
Outsiders (break all metal and alignment type DR vs. these critters)
Magical (attacks apply -melee/ranged/spellpower)
Natural (maybe attacks have a chance to Charm them for a short period?)

I'd also love to see something along the lines of "your attacks have a chance to stun creatures of your favored enemy type". Really, favored enemy is supposed to be a big part of ranger but it feels like such an afterthought--and it would make Deepwood Stalker a more individuated choice.

I also don't get why you have to *choose* between melee and ranged versions for the attacks. Isn't the point kind of for this to be the ranged/melee fusion tree? So why not make all the abilities just "attacks" that can be ranged or melee, your choice?

Strikes like Lightning feels like it ought to be in the Tempest tree. Tempest is all about Super Speed Attack Mode. It's another Low Damage Band-aid when you should be looking to give this tree a proper Theme instead of just dumping it full of X Power and Double Hit.

You do know that Ranger has some INCREDIBLY underutilized OFFENSIVE spells, right? How about an ability that lets you USE YOUR DEX FOR THE DC. (Or, alternately, let them use wis for hit and damage! That would be really interesting! Wis-based rangers! They're all One With Nature and stuff!) Also, an AOE version of Snare (a la Evard's Black Tentacles) would be BOSS. Throwing in some major boosties to Entangle, Snare, Spike Growth and, say, a palette-swapped version of EBT would do a LOT to make this a really original tree, because they'd have something that Tempests and Arcane Archers don't, namely some FRIGGIN CROWD CONTROL. Spike Growth and (maybe) EBT also do DAMAGE which would make Shiradi a potentially interesting destiny choice for this tree, then!

I really like that idea. A lot. MAKE IT SO.

And now I'm really wishing that rangers could also get a plant companion.

[Grailhawk]

I guess that's generally OK, but t5's still need to be strongly competitive, or else they are nothing but wasted design.


Agreed.

Sev~

In that regards what are your thoughts to the core 18? It could use a little bit more help maybe be some passive damage +3, +1[w], or +3[w] vs FE? The active component is limited by Animal Empathy charges and last time i used it had a combat delay.

[HatsuharuZ]

How about a fourth or fifth tier ability in this tree that gives a temporary dodge bonus, similar to how Uncanny Dodge functions? Perhaps the duration could scale with the hide and/or move silently skills.

[Darthbadger]

I also thing trying to fit in a Pet enhancements line like the one found in Enlightens Spirit, along with a Pet like the Pale Master Skeleton is a good idea just to silence all the D&D purists who want rangers to have pets if you put a few enhancements in Stalker to do this it would shut them up and let those of us who like the class as it is totally ignore the pet.

Yup; pretty much this. I acknowledge this is silly, but if it isn't a big amount of work, I think it would make many of us, ever so slightly, existentially happier. I'd prefer it to be ala Druid but, sure, I can deal with an enhancement version too.

[N-0cturn]

I like most of the redesign. Some remarks:

- I think the 5. Core is too weak. The mark is a nice boost against bosses with high fort, but very situational. I would like to see some other passive boost here or a buff to the mark.

- Head Shot/Strike: Adding Tactical Feat bonuses to it sounds good to me. I assume you just mean regular Tactic bonuses and not specific bonuses like Stunning etc. If you add these as well I would lower the DC to 1/2 Ranger level. Worked well enough for Warchanter.

- Please keep in Mind that you need to design around Holy Sword. Since 15 Paladin lvl are enough to get Most of the Paladin DPS without spending a single AP, this need to be kept in Mind when designing the T5s of any other melee class. Seems fine for Deepwood, but this might become an issue with Tempest.

Otherwise I think it looks good so far, although it's not possible to really tell how powerful it is without knowing the other trees.

[Darthbadger]

Yep, I realized that a bit late, but my concern for bows getting Dex to Damage stands. Melee can get Dexterity To Hit by spending 6 AP in the Tempest tree. (Second core.) Melee can also get Dexterity To Damage by spending 11 AP in Tempest. (Third core.)

By contrast, a longbow (or shortbow) ranger gets Dexterity To Hit by default, but there is no way in the entire game to get Dexterity To Damage except to be an Elf (not a Half-Elf, not a Drow, not a Morninglord; ONLY an Elf) and spend 17 AP in the racial tree. That's hugely limiting for build design.

You can't even choose from a handful of named bows. There's a half dozen or more named Daggers, Quarterstaffs, and other melee weapons that offer Dex to Damage. But no named bows do.

Putting Dexterity To Damage for bows in the Deepwood Stalker tree seems fine to me. Just please don't make it cost a feat, and also don't put it too far out of reach. Dex-based bow builds right now essentially have to spend all their AP in the Elf tree for the first 4+ levels of a life. It'd be nice to have more flexibility than that.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but doesn't the proposal mean that any race will have dex to damage on bows with 2 levels of Ranger at Tier 2--for 6 AP? Doesn't this resolve your concern?

Personally I think that the consolidation of attributes (particularly for a Ranger) is so powerful that it warrants the cost of a feat...but maybe I am missing something.

[Nightmanis]

Agreed.

Sev~

Tier 5: Hybrid Theory

When manyshot is activated, you gain +1mp and +1% doublestrike and offhand doublestrike for each second that you deal damage with a bow. Stacks 20 times. 1 stack fades away every 3 seconds.

So 20 seconds of manyshot followed by 60 seconds of boosted melee.

There's your tier5.

[Vellrad]

Being ABLE to use something doesn't mean that you're OBLIGATED to, you know. There are quite a few builds in the game that can use an alternate stat but are staggeringly sub-optimal for many things if they do so. The point is to have OPTIONS.

All the melee stuff in this tree is dex only.
We havent seen tempest yet, but even live version is giving dex stuff, and only str related thing is choose dex or str, you get dex to hit, dex to damage, dex capstone, and if they will add anything its DC will be dex based, and I can bet any money on that.

Ranger is obligated to be dex only class, and using alternate stat for damage is SUPERIOR not suboptimal, because STR does ONLY to hit/damage, while dex adds relfex and AC, so you only gain and don't lose anything, and you don't have anything boosting str based builds in trees, which is extremally stupid because rangers get str to damage with bows, so its logical that they should get some str stuff, or str/dex selectors at least.

[Theolin]

When you say "bows" are xbows included as well or just regular?

[EllisDee37]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but doesn't the proposal mean that any race will have dex to damage on bows with 2 levels of Ranger at Tier 2--for 6 AP? Doesn't this resolve your concern? Yep. I was merely stressing the dire situation on live.


Personally I think that the consolidation of attributes (particularly for a Ranger) is so powerful that it warrants the cost of a feat...but maybe I am missing something.If you also argued this with the Harper Tree consolidating everything with int, then fair enough. I view it as the same concept.

[Nightmanis]

Could make that a multi selector. Either Hybrid Theory or perfection of precision.

Perfection of precision: gain 1rp each second during manyshot, up to 20. Remove the doubleshot penalty.

[Darthbadger]

Yep. I was merely stressing the dire situation on live.

If you also argued this with the Harper Tree consolidating everything with int, then fair enough. I view it as the same concept.

Well, to be fair, dex consolidation also boosts your AC (haha) and your reflex save. If you want your Int consolidation to boost your reflex save you have to....drum roll...spend a feat. Harper would also cost more AP but on the way you pick up KtA...and also get more int skills.

I would say we both agree that the weapon finesse to bows is very good and should stay in the tree, but that we disagree on the costs. Looks like Sev is on your side though =)

[Delacroix21]

Agreed.

Sev~

Sev, can we get a tiny thing added to the ranger pass? Namely inceeasing the proc chance of shiradi effects when using a bow. Its kinda sad how this archer tree is use by many builds except archers.

[jakeelala]

I know you've made no real announcements yet about AA, but I would like to make a suggestion.

Please include some Shiradi like random Fey elements. It fits the Arcane part, but it doesn't just make AA meaningless carbon copy of DWS with some clicky attacks and a few weak stances.

Honestly, slayer arrow should be in DWS (it's stalker-y to to snipe kill someone with an arrow). AA should have "Haste stance", "Concelament Stances", and fun exciting arrows attacks that aren't just boring on hit effects lie shattermantle or On Vorpal Smite/Banish procs. You can do way better.

AA should be like the spellsinger version of Bard, but for Ranger. At least in some ways. They should be getting exploding arrows that give AoE and knockdowns, all sorts of debuffs, and all sorts of valuable CC including helpless state.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

[jakeelala]

Sev, can we get a tiny thing added to the ranger pass? Namely inceeasing the proc chance of shiradi effects when using a bow. Its kinda sad how this archer tree is use by many builds except archers.

Change this to ranged and thrown and I'm on board. Or instead of increased procs, just allow them to scale with Ranged Power :) :) :)

[CrackedIce]

Sev, can we get a tiny thing added to the ranger pass? Namely inceeasing the proc chance of shiradi effects when using a bow. Its kinda sad how this archer tree is use by many builds except archers.

I would suggest even further than this - create more compatibility with the upcoming changes to AA tree and Sharadi. As is stands right now, other than the capstone for doubleshot, there is no inherent advantage to being AA for Sharadi Champion Destiny.

[Spl1tz]

Some thoughts from the feedback:

~ We are looking into including Thrown Weapons in this based on player feedback.



Hi.
Assuming this change is mostly for shuriken users, it won't be enough to steer players away from splashing 3 monks on their build, might be useful for hybrid/flavor thrower builds.

It would be more interesting if you added a chance to throw an extra projectile per attack based on the Dexterity score, just like the 2nd core from Ninja Spy, but in such a way that it doesn't stack with each other. Otherwise it would be over-performing, probably.

Cheers

[Xionanx]

I would suggest even further than this - create more compatibility with the upcoming changes to AA tree and Sharadi. As is stands right now, other than the capstone for doubleshot, there is no inherent advantage to being AA for Sharadi Champion Destiny.

This is why I am pushing for attack speed increase. Right now, Shiradi is best used by a wizard casting MM's. But that is only because 1 MM cast = 5 chances to proc shiradi, not to mention the Wiz PL MM, and the other sources of MM's.

"Bow" users just cant put enough arrows on a target to proc Shiradi often enough to make it worthwhile, which is why 99% of "Bow" users are using Adrenaline + Manyshot. Even Repeating XBOW users who can get a decent amount of bolts down the line are better off using "Blitz". Shiradi was just really poorly designed for its "Target" audience, which is implied to be ranged attackers. Its also sad that the "Caster" Epid Destinies are worse for casters then then the "Bow" epid destiny..

IMO Epic Destinies need to be completely redone, but thats another update probably a year or more from now.

To make the destinies we have "now" usefull, "Bow" users need a way to get more arrows into targets, and for that to happen "Bows" themselves need a speed increase, not just "Ranger".

[Xionanx]

Some thoughts from the feedback:

~ This tree is meant to add Versatility and DPS that stacks well on top of other trees. As such we don't expect this tree alone to provide the DPS of, say, Tempest or Swashbuckler because it is a good tree to take to stack on top of main DPS trees

Sev~

I dont understand this statement. Are what you are saying is that you dont expect people to "Capstone" DWS? You dont expect them to put a full 40 AP into it? That its meant to support other trees that people do put 40pts into?

That is a flawed design concept IMO. If you cant make the tree desirable enough to be your MAIN tree with other trees supporting it, then why even put capstones in it? Why not simply call it "Deep Wood Support" with a max AP expenditure of 20 AP and consolidate all the stuff you want to be "Support" oriented.

If I am playing a pure 20 ranger, I feel like I should have 3 valid choices as my PRIMARY tree with the other 2 tree's supporting it. But it seems that you dont expect that, that you expect a 20 ranger to only be a Tempest or an Arcane Archer with DWS supporting them.


**** ON A UNRELATED NOTE ****

I still think the "Trees" should be split off and sold seperately. That there should be ONE "Class" tree for every class, that is generic and powerful enough*, and then the "Prestige" trees would be sold seperately and work like Harper, giving any class they are applied to powerful options. Want to be a Dwarf Barbarian 20 Arcane Archer? Go ahead, buy the Arcane Archer tree.

Just a thought.

[EllisDee37]

Well, to be fair, dex consolidation also boosts your AC (haha) and your reflex save. If you want your Int consolidation to boost your reflex save you have to....drum roll...spend a feat. Harper would also cost more AP but on the way you pick up KtA...and also get more int skills.

I would say we both agree that the weapon finesse to bows is very good and should stay in the tree, but that we disagree on the costs. Looks like Sev is on your side though =)That's a great point about Insightful Reflexes, well played. When you factor in Know the Angle we may be straying too far into apples to oranges territory. Instead, let's look at existing ways to get full dex to hit and damage:

Take 6 ranger levels and spend 11 AP in the tempest tree, works on all light weapons + scimitars, no feat required.
Take 3 rogue levels and spend 6 AP in the assassin tree, works on daggers and kukris. Optional spend a feat on weapon finesse to apply this for all light weapons.
Take 3 rogue levels and spend 6 AP in thief acrobat tree, works on quarterstaffs, no feat required.
Take 3 bard levels and spend 12 AP in the swashbuckler tree, works on one-handed weapons, no feat required.

Based on these for precedent, I'd say leave Improved Weapon Finesse as it is on live (maybe add throwers to it), but add the following to the cores:

Core 2 (ML3, 5 AP spent):
Sneak Attack: +1 Sneak Attack Die
You can use dexterity for To Hit with shortbows and longbows.

Core 3 (ML6, 10 AP spent):
Called Shot (blah blah blah)
You can use dexterity for Damage with shortbows and longbows.

I could be convinced to move them down to cores 1 & 2 instead of 2 & 3 based on the acrobat/assassin precedent.

[DevilYouKnow]

What you are saying is that ranger levels 6-20 should be inherently weaker then paladin 1-15. That's not balanced and needs to be addressed. If a 20 Ranger was in the same ball park as a 15/5 Paladin that would be fine its not the case today, a 15/5 Paladin is much better then a 20 Ranger, this is all because of Holy Sword.

You are not reading. I said that there are far better options than just splashing 5 ranger lvl's to something.

Holy sword just needs to be changed to work with melee weapons only. That is all there is to it.

I mean it is called holy sword, not holy bow.

[Thar]

I like most of the redesign. Some remarks:

- I think the 5. Core is too weak. The mark is a nice boost against bosses with high fort, but very situational. I would like to see some other passive boost here or a buff to the mark.

- Head Shot/Strike: Adding Tactical Feat bonuses to it sounds good to me. I assume you just mean regular Tactic bonuses and not specific bonuses like Stunning etc. If you add these as well I would lower the DC to 1/2 Ranger level. Worked well enough for Warchanter.

- Please keep in Mind that you need to design around Holy Sword. Since 15 Paladin lvl are enough to get Most of the Paladin DPS without spending a single AP, this need to be kept in Mind when designing the T5s of any other melee class. Seems fine for Deepwood, but this might become an issue with Tempest.

Otherwise I think it looks good so far, although it's not possible to really tell how powerful it is without knowing the other trees.

it's not all about holy sword. Barbarians get 2x crit damage at level 12, bards get insta kill at lvl 12, pally get holy sword at 15. how to get a viable tier 5 to compete and NOT stack with those if multiclass. It would need to be a core at 12+ and it would need to be a crit enhancement of the same type as the other classes so it won't stack or a massive damage boost (1000+) or instakill effect. a few x(w) or +5 damage isn't going to be enough to compare. how can you keep up with a warlock blasting everything in a 40 block area for 100s of damage?

[DevilYouKnow]

it's not all about holy sword. Barbarians get 2x crit damage at level 12, bards get insta kill at lvl 12, pally get holy sword at 15. how to get a viable tier 5 to compete and NOT stack with those if multiclass. it would need to be a crit enhancement of the same type as the other classes so it won't stack or a massive damage boost (1000+) or instakill effect. a few x(w) or +5 damage isn't going to be enough to compare. how can you keep up with a warlock blasting everything in a 40 block area for 100s of damage?

Paladins are better off using their own T5 abilities anyway. They are pretty **** good already if you ask me.

[EllisDee37]

Also, strongly agreed about making shirardi the best thrower/longbow/crossbow destiny. For repeating crossbows, use a similar concept as how doubleshot works for repeaters vs non-repeaters.

The best idea mentioned upthread was to incorporate ranges power. Tweak the proc chance (maybe something like 25% base, 10% for repeaters?) and the proc damage and have the proc damage scale with ranged power. Meaning the base proc damage might well end up (signifcantly?) lower than it is on live but even as little as +50 ranged power would bring it up noticeably higher than it is on live. Maybe scales with 200% ranged power?

Then maybe add a crusader zeal type clicky to the last core ability that increases proc chance to 100% for 30 seconds or something, with a 3:00 cooldown. Or whatever numbers work out so that furyshot isn't the no-brainer choice for manyshot.

[Darthbadger]

That's a great point about Insightful Reflexes, well played. When you factor in Know the Angle we may be straying too far into apples to oranges territory. Instead, let's look at existing ways to get full dex to hit and damage:

Take 6 ranger levels and spend 11 AP in the tempest tree, works on all light weapons + scimitars, no feat required.
Take 3 rogue levels and spend 6 AP in the assassin tree, works on daggers and kukris. Optional spend a feat on weapon finesse to apply this for all light weapons.
Take 3 rogue levels and spend 6 AP in thief acrobat tree, works on quarterstaffs, no feat required.
Take 3 bard levels and spend 12 AP in the swashbuckler tree, works on one-handed weapons, no feat required.

Based on these for precedent, I'd say leave Improved Weapon Finesse as it is on live (maybe add throwers to it), but add the following to the cores:

Core 2 (ML3, 5 AP spent):
Sneak Attack: +1 Sneak Attack Die
You can use dexterity for To Hit with shortbows and longbows.

Core 3 (ML6, 10 AP spent):
Called Shot (blah blah blah)
You can use dexterity for Damage with shortbows and longbows.

I could be convinced to move them down to cores 1 & 2 instead of 2 & 3 based on the acrobat/assassin precedent.


This seems fair to me; you have to commit more to being a Ranger, but save a feat slot. As long as there is a fair cost to this I'm for it.

As far as core 2 or 3, I'd advocate for core 3, level 6. The level 6 would keep it consistent with Tempest. The rogue precedent is a good one but I'd say two points: for assassin its limited to dagger or kukri (or everything else with a feat slot) for acrobat its...quarterstaves. My feeling is that longbow/shortbow is not as much a weapon restriction as dagger/kukri/quarterstaff, which can feel like a real limiter at times.

As for thowers I have no comment, as I've never played one so I'd be just making a guess as to whether it makes sense.

[EllisDee37]

As far as core 2 or 3, I'd advocate for core 3, level 6. The level 6 would keep it consistent with Tempest. The rogue precedent is a good one but I'd say two points: for assassin its limited to dagger or kukri (or everything else with a feat slot) for acrobat its...quarterstaves. My feeling is that longbow/shortbow is not as much a weapon restriction as dagger/kukri/quarterstaff, which can feel like a real limiter at times.I go back and forth as to whether longbow/shortbow is an equivalent restriction to quarterstaffs or daggers/kukris. On the one hand, they're essentially a single weapon type like quarterstaffs, or at most two types like daggers/kukris. On the other hand, shortbow/longbow comprises an entire combat style, which is more than you can say for daggers/kukri. Then on the third hand, do quarterstaffs count as their own combat style? Kind of yes, kind of no.

So I could go either way. If the devs were deciding between these two options (core 1 & 2 vs core 2 & 3) I'd be fine with whichever way they chose.

I see your point about 2 levels + 6 AP with no feat maybe being kind of a bit cheap, but I am against what amounts to adding bows to weapon finesse. That feels unflavorful, anti-lore to me.

Oddly, if they went crazy and added a new feat to the game that gave dex to damage for shortbows only, then added a tier 2 DWS ability that made that feat also include longbows, I wouldn't object. It just feels wrong to have to take the weapon finesse feat specifically on a longbow build.

[Gratch]

Agreed.

Sev~

Replace "BLIND" in Head Shot with "KILL". If you want it to be competitive and have something other ranger trees do not.
Alternatively replace "BLIND" with some affect that works on bosses... 10% vulnerability? That would be PRE defining as well.

Also for being a "stalker". One who "stalks" which suggests movement around the prey... this PRE does best when standing still.
Deepwood Stander? Hmmm... what if they could maintain archer's focus while sneaking?

[Kawai]

Yep. I was merely stressing the dire situation on live.

If you also argued this with the Harper Tree consolidating everything with int, then fair enough. I view it as the same concept.

lol DIRE?????
hehehehehehe
tell us, prtty pls, what is this DIRE situation?

If anything, the point requirement via ELFt tree needs incredibly relaxed.
u want DEX=Dmg?
roll an elf.

dire!

heheheeee
OH
WAIT!
--ahhhhhhh here's the ONLY thing DIRE needed atm...
D I R E - T I G E R S
been saying that since day1 (look't up goobers)

hwvr, the last thing this game needs is COOKIE CUTTERS for ALL!

so what if one race can use GRACE where Longbows are concerned?
dun b jelli! build ur own stuff u jerks!

and oh yea, as far as SHURIKINS?
effing PLS!
wasted space in any Ranger tree!
build them their own stoopid tree for the 3 people who use it.

istg! id luv to see someone throw a Shurky as far as an arrow from a bow!
lol
would also luv 2c that same shurky actually hurt something?!
hrmmm
a Major League Pitcher gets handed a shurky in a thick forest.
could he hit a squirrel at anything further than 15 yards?

nooooop

.............

all BS aside. fix Tier 5 & make it worthwhile.

Ssneak is fine @ 1 pt.
it obviously does not need to be as fast as a Rogues.
Rogues hav a job to do after all, & this helps.
makes sense as they've practiced to make it better.
its rough sneaking past mobs fast enough to disarm **** while the zergyboiz are attempting to kill stuff behind ya.

Rangers? as in DEEPWOOD? hav neither the skill nor need to go faster than 50%.
id actually see 40% as fast enough.

.............

want to give these trolls the AA slayer arrow they're crying for?
fine!
-give it to them.
AS IS.
no prob.

HWVR...when AA tree gets done (eta 2018) simply RE-INTRODUCE the ORIGINAL SLAYER ARROW that actually SLAYED without a need for CRITS or ED help.
well, then u would just hav the same 3 people whining they should hav it too! (and it should work on likttle Shurkies no doubt). -head-desk-

.............

last but not least...
adjust Light Armor w/ adding PRR & DODGE. (leaning towards dodge)
prob solved.

[EllisDee37]

lol DIRE?????
hehehehehehe
tell us, prtty pls, what is this DIRE situation?This:

u want DEX=Dmg?
roll an elf.In terms of build choices and diversity, that's a dire situation.

(I am unable to comprehend the rest of your post.)

[jakeelala]

Also, strongly agreed about making shirardi the best thrower/longbow/crossbow destiny. For repeating crossbows, use a similar concept as how doubleshot works for repeaters vs non-repeaters.

The best idea mentioned upthread was to incorporate ranges power. Tweak the proc chance (maybe something like 25% base, 10% for repeaters?) and the proc damage and have the proc damage scale with ranged power. Meaning the base proc damage might well end up (signifcantly?) lower than it is on live but even as little as +50 ranged power would bring it up noticeably higher than it is on live. Maybe scales with 200% ranged power?

Then maybe add a crusader zeal type clicky to the last core ability that increases proc chance to 100% for 30 seconds or something, with a 3:00 cooldown. Or whatever numbers work out so that furyshot isn't the no-brainer choice for manyshot.

Other option on my scaling with RP suggestion in Shiradi is to give AA lots of Spell Power boosts and Spell Crit boosts, and then let them scale shiradi procs as a PRE enhancements instead of RP.

That would be a fun flavor twist :)

[DevilYouKnow]

lol DIRE?????
hehehehehehe
tell us, prtty pls, what is this DIRE situation?

If anything, the point requirement via ELFt tree needs incredibly relaxed.
u want DEX=Dmg?
roll an elf.

dire!

heheheeee
OH
WAIT!
--ahhhhhhh here's the ONLY thing DIRE needed atm...
D I R E - T I G E R S
been saying that since day1 (look't up goobers)

hwvr, the last thing this game needs is COOKIE CUTTERS for ALL!

so what if one race can use GRACE where Longbows are concerned?
dun b jelli! build ur own stuff u jerks!

and oh yea, as far as SHURIKINS?
effing PLS!
wasted space in any Ranger tree!
build them their own stoopid tree for the 3 people who use it.

istg! id luv to see someone throw a Shurky as far as an arrow from a bow!
lol
would also luv 2c that same shurky actually hurt something?!
hrmmm
a Major League Pitcher gets handed a shurky in a thick forest.
could he hit a squirrel at anything further than 15 yards?

nooooop

.............

all BS aside. fix Tier 5 & make it worthwhile.

Ssneak is fine @ 1 pt.
it obviously does not need to be as fast as a Rogues.
Rogues hav a job to do after all, & this helps.
makes sense as they've practiced to make it better.
its rough sneaking past mobs fast enough to disarm **** while the zergyboiz are attempting to kill stuff behind ya.

Rangers? as in DEEPWOOD? hav neither the skill nor need to go faster than 50%.
id actually see 40% as fast enough.

.............

want to give these trolls the AA slayer arrow they're crying for?
fine!
-give it to them.
AS IS.
no prob.

HWVR...when AA tree gets done (eta 2018) simply RE-INTRODUCE the ORIGINAL SLAYER ARROW that actually SLAYED without a need for CRITS or ED help.
well, then u would just hav the same 3 people whining they should hav it too! (and it should work on likttle Shurkies no doubt). -head-desk-

.............

last but not least...
adjust Light Armor w/ adding PRR & DODGE. (leaning towards dodge)
prob solved.

Sorry, but i have no clue what you are trying to tell us. Care to elaborate properly this time ?

[maddong]

Can we include some nerfs so the ranger pass doesn't just lead the more more more crowd pumping everything up with steroids?

How about some mild nerfs:
1. Holy sword only works with melee
2. Kta doesn't stack with dm (bug fix)
3. Blood strength healing can trigger at most every second
4. Vanguards can no longer stun constructs/undead (bug fix)
5. Warlock temp hp further decreased

Each of my 6 main characters would be effected.

If you do any nerfs please announce them now so we can prep for them.

[HastyPudding]

I'd like to hear a developer's ideas and opinions of empathic healing because, currently, it's not worth 2 AP let alone 1 AP. All it does, right now, is provide very weak healing for rangers before they get their cure spells. A cure serious potion from the house K vendors can do this and not cost any AP and doesn't have limited uses.

As it stands, animal empathy is sort of a rather pointless, highly underused ability. I'd like to see it get some love.


Can we include some nerfs so the ranger pass doesn't just lead the more more more crowd pumping everything up with steroids?

How about some mild nerfs:
1. Holy sword only works with melee
2. Kta doesn't stack with dm (bug fix)
3. Blood strength healing can trigger at most every second
4. Vanguards can no longer stun constructs/undead (bug fix)
5. Warlock temp hp further decreased

Each of my 6 main characters would be effected.

If you do any nerfs please announce them now so we can prep for them.

1. Agreed. I really don't like this constant 15 paladin/5 xxxx multiclass shtick people are on, right now. Unfortunately, fixing rangers and fighters is only going to make it worse. I dread the thought of the kensei tree finally being remade and all you see is a bunch of 15 paladin/5 fighter builds dominating every aspect of the game.
2. Sure.
3. Don't really care about barbarians.
4. Absolutely not. This ability is expensive to outfit, requires tactics DC's, and has a very long cooldown. If the cooldown was shorter, sure, but right now, no. There needs to be SOME way of locking down very troublesome undead/constructs, so why not let it be a support dps tree?
5. Agreed. Every time some 2000/1200 HP warlock join my party I cringe inside at the ridiculousness of it. Warlock is already an easy button, and ES builds with bloated HP and tank-like PRR/MRR just make it beyond silly. I was actually kicked from a party on my scholar/souleater warlock because I said I didn't put any points in the ES tree because it didn't help my enchantment and necromancy DC's.

[DevilYouKnow]

Can we include some nerfs so the ranger pass doesn't just lead the more more more crowd pumping everything up with steroids?

How about some mild nerfs:
1. Holy sword only works with melee /signed 100% !!!
2. Kta doesn't stack with dm (bug fix) /That is already the case, tested multiple times.
3. Blood strength healing can trigger at most every second /signed
4. Vanguards can no longer stun constructs/undead (bug fix) /signed
5. Warlock temp hp further decreased /signed

Each of my 6 main characters would be effected.

If you do any nerfs please announce them now so we can prep for them.

Edit in red.

[FestusHood]

I know you've made no real announcements yet about AA, but I would like to make a suggestion.

Please include some Shiradi like random Fey elements. It fits the Arcane part, but it doesn't just make AA meaningless carbon copy of DWS with some clicky attacks and a few weak stances.

Honestly, slayer arrow should be in DWS (it's stalker-y to to snipe kill someone with an arrow). AA should have "Haste stance", "Concelament Stances", and fun exciting arrows attacks that aren't just boring on hit effects lie shattermantle or On Vorpal Smite/Banish procs. You can do way better.

AA should be like the spellsinger version of Bard, but for Ranger. At least in some ways. They should be getting exploding arrows that give AoE and knockdowns, all sorts of debuffs, and all sorts of valuable CC including helpless state.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

I basically agree with this. Slayer arrow does seem more appropriate to deepwood, but it's in AA because that's where it always was.

Just my vision, but i see deepwood as the tree that should be more about base damage with high spike damage shots. AA i think should be more about proc damage from arrows. I would start by making the elemental imbues scale with spell power (not ranged power). Maybe even 150% spell power.

If they are putting 20% doubleshot into the capstone of deepwood, will they keep also the 20% doubleshot in the capstone of AA? What could they replace the doubleshot in AA with if they wanted to avoid this redundancy?

My thought about the tier 5 head shot in stalker. It does need a bit more oomph. Maybe change the blind effect to a stun? That seems thematically correct. Didn't kill it but knocked it silly for a bit. Also maybe raise the 5(W) a bit. I was thinking either just go nuts and go to 10(w), or maybe get fancy and make it something like half ranger level(w).

[CeltEireson]

Replace "BLIND" in Head Shot with "KILL". If you want it to be competitive and have something other ranger trees do not.
Alternatively replace "BLIND" with some affect that works on bosses... 10% vulnerability? That would be PRE defining as well.

Also for being a "stalker". One who "stalks" which suggests movement around the prey... this PRE does best when standing still.
Deepwood Stander? Hmmm... what if they could maintain archer's focus while sneaking?

Or even something higher up in the tree that reduces the rate that archers focus decays - allowing you to build it up, move a bit, fire for a bit, move again etc.

[FestusHood]

Change this to ranged and thrown and I'm on board. Or instead of increased procs, just allow them to scale with Ranged Power :) :) :)

I would be happy if they could make the procs scale with spell power they way they do when cast from spells. It would seem to be thematically the proper destiny for an arcane archer.

[blerkington]

Hi,

I'm very firmly against a random proc table being added to AA. It's not DPS you can count upon, it's not thematically appropriate to the destiny, and we had a long period of time where similar tables for rainbow and colours contained party griefing and bugged effects. Not everyone enjoys being at the mercy of random effects.

Both of the trees should have good options for someone wanting to build a strong archer. The suggestion by a developer that DS should just be an auxiliary tree is really disappointing. Talk about planning for failure.

Why should this be the approach for that tree and not for mechanic, swashbuckler, etc? It sounds like you are setting out to make it mediocre, which is inexplicable given the huge gobs of power recently ladled out to the other classes. If you regret how much power was given to the other classes, the solution is not go half-way; either make with the nerfs or boost everyone to the same level then rebalance your content.

On the other hand, it would be nice for the community not to bargain against itself by actually asking for AA to be made worse by turning it into a special effects tree rather than one which can produce some damage and has some useful abilities, or give into munchkinism and demand 20[w] or instakill effects on special attacks for DWS.

What we need is a pass which removes the chaff from the trees, keeps their flavour by translating them into different playstyles, made them a real option for specialisation rather than a place to dump some extra AP, deals with the core issues facing archers compared to other ranged builds (RoF, on hit procs, balancing 10k and non 10k stars builds, etc), and results in a level of power comparable to other ranged builds.

Thanks.

[Bennum]

**** ON A UNRELATED NOTE ****

I still think the "Trees" should be split off and sold seperately. That there should be ONE "Class" tree for every class, that is generic and powerful enough*, and then the "Prestige" trees would be sold seperately and work like Harper, giving any class they are applied to powerful options. Want to be a Dwarf Barbarian 20 Arcane Archer? Go ahead, buy the Arcane Archer tree.

Just a thought.

I'm sorry but this may be the worst idea I have ever read here, what makes you think this would be a good idea at all?

[blerkington]

I would be happy if they could make the procs scale with spell power they way they do when cast from spells. It would seem to be thematically the proper destiny for an arcane archer.

Hi,

The amount of damage from imbues would have to be raised an awful lot to compete with the extra damage coming from ranged power and/or critical hit changes.

Gearing for spellpower on a bow user would be a huge pain in the backside, especially if you wanted to switch using imbues.

Thanks.

[Bennum]

Based on these for precedent, I'd say leave Improved Weapon Finesse as it is on live (maybe add throwers to it), but add the following to the cores:

Core 2 (ML3, 5 AP spent):
Sneak Attack: +1 Sneak Attack Die
You can use dexterity for To Hit with shortbows and longbows.

Core 3 (ML6, 10 AP spent):
Called Shot (blah blah blah)
You can use dexterity for Damage with shortbows and longbows.

I could be convinced to move them down to cores 1 & 2 instead of 2 & 3 based on the acrobat/assassin precedent.

That looks like a good idea!

[CeltEireson]

Few more thoughts:

Not specific to DWS but certainly impacts on ranged - could you fix shot on the run, currently spring attack stops the penalty for both moving for both melee and ranged, whilst shot on the run does nothing when you're moving for ranged, you just get the +3 to ranged power.

Could we get a dex version of Ram's Might - i.e. +2 to dex and damage.

The tier 5 extra favoured enemy - whilst an extra favoured enemy can be useful generally in practical terms its not that much benefit at 'end game'. In particular packs there tends to be a fairly restricted number of different enemy types e.g. I assume epic shroud will be primarily Evil Outsiders, if you have a favoured enemy that doesn't appear in the latest packs then to a certain extent the only benefit its providing is the extra +2 to damage. 5 favoured enemies will probably cover the majority of mobs you'll encounter later on in the game, certainly the most dangerous ones, so there's not as much incentive to pick up an additional one rather than some other enhancement (or epic destiny ability for that matter). Given that its a tier 5 enhancement could we get something a lil extra on top? Maybe something like - for every favoured enemy that you have you gain 1% dodge against your favoured enemies, or 1-2 melee/ranged power.

As said earlier would be nice to have some way of regenerating animal empathy and lesser vigor still sucks! ;)

I know sneak attack damage by rogue increases with melee power, does the sneak attack damage from the enhancements benefit from melee/ranged power? If not could it?

As others have said - would be nice if Shiradi Champion had a bit more damage for archers although I know this is about the enhancements not the destinies

Also would be nice if there was something in there to take advantage of hiding in plain sight as its a unique ability to rangers and fits well with the idea of a stalker - its gives a bonus to hide/move silently when you don't move for 3 sec, stacking up to 5 times. Hmmmm so maybe an enhancement that gives +1W damage for every 3 seconds you remain hidden, given it could be combined with other shots you could end up with a lot of damage from one shot, but as you have to remain hidden (and therefore not attacking) to build it, its probably not something that could be abused - its probably more something that would be good for an opening shot for a ranger soloing as a group wouldn't wait around for it ;)

Thrill of the hunt, given that its conditional could it maybe be +1/2/4 damage, or have some additional benefit on tier 3. Same for favoured hunter.

Oh and does favoured enemy damage scale with melee/ranged power, or is it added after theyre applied to the base damage?

[Gratch]

Or even something higher up in the tree that reduces the rate that archers focus decays - allowing you to build it up, move a bit, fire for a bit, move again etc.

Yes. Also maybe add a further stacking reduction to archer focus decay rate in Shot on the Run (http://ddowiki.com/page/Shot_on_the_Run) feat. That feat with it's crazy number of pre-reqs did get a ranged power+3 boost, but could maybe use a little more given how little the -4 attack matters with DDO to-hit %'age based system changes.

And again restating. Head shot kills... blinds if they save.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/1eacd3ac0cf13f709ee1b0609fc75c90/tumblr_mlc8nyunrP1qkechxo2_250.gif

[FestusHood]

Hi,

The amount of damage from imbues would have to be raised an awful lot to compete with the extra damage coming from ranged power and/or critical hit changes.

Gearing for spellpower on a bow user would be a huge pain in the backside, especially if you wanted to switch using imbues.

Thanks.

Yes, it would actually diversify the trees quite a bit. I don't really see the point of having two out of the three ranger trees being essentially the same thing. Two trees that both give ranged power and doublestrike.

The arcane archer tree could give out more spell power. Maybe universal spell power per point spent the way arcanes work, and then some specific spell power boosts. You could then slap on a potency item and easily be able to reach 250-300 spell power in epics. Then increase the % that it scales with the spellpower until you reach the desired levels of damage. As it stands right now, the damage imbues are hilariously underpowered, and might as well not be there, yet they are thematically the core function of arcane archers.

As far as the idea of giving up to 10(w) for the head shot, that doesn't strike me as being any more munchkinism than anything else being discussed here. How does that compare to the 250 damage that slayer arrow adds? Is that not munchkiny? I'm not sure i'm completely onboard with the idea of changing the blind to a kill, but it isn't thematically any more bizarre than coup de grace. Snipers are supposed to kill things with single shots aren't they? The stun effect i suggested seems appropriate to me. Both thematically and effect wise.

[Angelic-council]

I'm just curious, but.. Hmm. Shouldn't head shot gain "kill" instead of "blind"? I mean, it's a head shot, maybe there is a reason why it's blind since this is a game. But realistically thinking, head shot should at least kill or stun. Not blind. What everyone think.

DC 14 + ranger level + DEX modifier. Meaning, if you are pure and say, you have 66 DEX, which is really decent. You would have fortitude DC 62. It's not enought to kill everything, so it seem to me that it's very reasonable. If it's too much, maybe at least stun.

[blerkington]

Yes, it would actually diversify the trees quite a bit. I don't really see the point of having two out of the three ranger trees being essentially the same thing. Two trees that both give ranged power and doublestrike.

The arcane archer tree could give out more spell power. Maybe universal spell power per point spent the way arcanes work, and then some specific spell power boosts. You could then slap on a potency item and easily be able to reach 250-300 spell power in epics. Then increase the % that it scales with the spellpower until you reach the desired levels of damage. As it stands right now, the damage imbues are hilariously underpowered, and might as well not be there, yet they are thematically the core function of arcane archers.

As far as the idea of giving up to 10(w) for the head shot, that doesn't strike me as being any more munchkinism than anything else being discussed here. How does that compare to the 250 damage that slayer arrow adds? Is that not munchkiny? I'm not sure i'm completely onboard with the idea of changing the blind to a kill, but it isn't thematically any more bizarre than coup de grace. Snipers are supposed to kill things with single shots aren't they? The stun effect i suggested seems appropriate to me. Both thematically and effect wise.

Hi,

To hit 250-300 spellpower in one area, including a potency item for 90 or so, would mean the tree would have to give 160-210 universal spellpower. That is a huge amount. I suspect there would be some terrible unintended consequences if that were done, for example people rebuilding their nuking casters to take advantage of such a bonanza.

Adding a potency effect to your gear is actually quite a sacrifice at the moment, at cap anyway, because the items with this effect usually prevent you from equipping something much better, either directly or through effect conflicts with ohter gear.

The imbues are generally pretty bad as they are, both in their slight effects and the way the tree is built so that they are mutually exclusive and there aren't many other options for spending AP. Maybe we should have that discussion during the AA pass, but making them so they scale in some way at higher levels is a good idea.

I'm not a big fan of instakills in the game, and think we have too many of them already. Apart from being difficult to balance, they are annoying in groups, often resulting in a lot of wasted time as people instakill mobs out from under each other. Adding more of them doesn't seem like a good idea, because the end result will be a game where all we do is one shot trash mobs between boss fights. Another step closer to this game becoming the hideous love child of Diablo and Space Invaders.

I also think a guiding principle for setting power for enhancements should be they are appropriate in power for the character level at which they are achieved, and don't eclipse ED abilities in power. Unfortunately the idea that enhancements be a small improvement in character power rather than defining abilities of a build seems well and truly lost now.

Thanks.

[FlaviusMaximus]

In addition to granting Stalkers Sniper Shot and Strike at 6 instead of making it a selector, adding Quick Draw as a selectable lower tier ability or having it be an autogrant at one of the cores would go along with the hybrid theme rather nicely.

[FestusHood]

Hi,

To hit 250-300 spellpower in one area, including a potency item for 90 or so, would mean the tree would have to give 160-210 universal spellpower. That is a huge amount. I suspect there would be some terrible unintended consequences if that were done, for example people rebuilding their nuking casters to take advantage of such a bonanza.



I was counting in things like potions to reach those spell power levels, the same way dedicated casters are reaching 500+ spell power now. If something like the inferno shot scaled with spell power i would find some way to equip an item with higher than 90 fire spell power. There are plenty of them in the game. Not sure if it could be coded intentionally, but how about adding crit chance into the mix? I mean a separate crit chance for the elemental procs based on lore effects.

I wouldn't think it would be a big deal for the AA tree to give similar amounts of spell power to what arcane trees give. If somebody wants to build an elven pure wizard that uses bows, why not? For every point they put in the AA tree they would have to pull something out of the arcane trees. If they weren't actually using bows the things they would lose would outweigh the gains.

I was thinking the imbues themselves could give maybe 30 spell power in that element when they were active? If somebody wants to be an elf, spend a bunch of points in that tree, and the AA tree just to get maybe 40-50 more spell power in an element, let them.

[Lauf]

Sev, because I, like you, see this tree as more of a utility tree for all rangers, I'd like to see more utility enhancements in it.

for example, how about some CC? either through trapmaking or entangle with a reasonable DC.
only stands to reason a ranger could fix up some traps in the woods...
maybe give them a percentage based dazing arrows

you could also keep pushing the route of making it the rangers' healing tree, by improving and/or adding healing SLAs in it.
lesser vigor is a bit lackluster; perhaps a better way of putting it is it's basically useless.

another option is to make the stalker more party friendly rather than focus on self DPS.
you could add an enhancement that adds an inflaming aura granting nearby party members bonuses against the ranger's favored enemies.
this should make it nicer for everyone to have a ranger in a party, and people might actually start caring about your choice of favored enemy.

those are just a few random thoughts, but I believe you get the drift.
don't just promote it as another ranger dps tree, comparable to other ranger dps trees. please use it to make rangers unique.

[draven1]

Tempest :
evasive tanky frontend TWF melee
less DPS than deepwood stalker, but more tanky than stalker
have burst AOE strikes, double strike boosts, but, it's up-time should not be too long
boosts, time limited clicky based burst DPS
better use of Whirlwind Attacks
synergy with fighter-type

Deepwood "Stalker" :
sudden backstab hunter, "hiding in the weeds" flavor
more DPS than tempest, but squisher & it's situational DPS(sudden sneak attack)
have stalking ability(more use of sneaking, i.e gathering archer's focus stack on sneak move, gaining archer's focus even in melee, using archer's focus for melee, too, something like "measure the foe" ability, maybe renaming as "hunter's focus"?)
synergy with rogue-type

Arcane archer :
CC & ranged DPS master, Artillery type rather than kite-rabbit
raising some CC spell DC as practical(80+ currently), entangle, etc
web added as lvl 2 spell list
have imbue arrows
Tier 5 : more advantage from archer's focus(6 ranged power per stack), faster stacking
ranged + some CC spell

Improved precise shot as a clicky based attack, not a always toggle, but archer's focus will be applied on it.
Many ranged kiting problems is from IPS.

ps> Please don't make facerolling classes more. Make it to require "PLAYER'S SKILL", rather than toon's past-lives.

[blerkington]

I was counting in things like potions to reach those spell power levels, the same way dedicated casters are reaching 500+ spell power now. If something like the inferno shot scaled with spell power i would find some way to equip an item with higher than 90 fire spell power. There are plenty of them in the game. Not sure if it could be coded intentionally, but how about adding crit chance into the mix? I mean a separate crit chance for the elemental procs based on lore effects.

I wouldn't think it would be a big deal for the AA tree to give similar amounts of spell power to what arcane trees give. If somebody wants to build an elven pure wizard that uses bows, why not? For every point they put in the AA tree they would have to pull something out of the arcane trees. If they weren't actually using bows the things they would lose would outweigh the gains.

I was thinking the imbues themselves could give maybe 30 spell power in that element when they were active? If somebody wants to be an elf, spend a bunch of points in that tree, and the AA tree just to get maybe 40-50 more spell power in an element, let them.

Hi,

Good points, let's hope someone remembers them for the AA discussion. Though the danger for adding a lot of spellpower (if it stacks with other sources) is a nuker build who never touches a bow, not a wizard who is trying to be an archer too.

Thanks.

[Dreppo]

Core 2 (ML3, 5 AP spent):
Sneak Attack: +1 Sneak Attack Die
You can use dexterity for To Hit with shortbows and longbows.

Um...

[EllisDee37]

Um...Ha! Just realized that. hehheh.

[redoubt]

We are still considering changes to Manyshot which may be coming soon, but may not be at the same time as this Ranger pass.



Please understand that manyshot is a large part of the archer dps conversation. I think that the discussion about the rangers trees (and of course arcane archer) must include the proposed changes to manyshot. I think that achieving good balance will be extra difficult if you only look at one piece at a time.

On the whole, its looking promising and thank you for the advance info and insight into the plans.

[Spookyaction]

As we do so it will make remaining abilities that still use %damage be potent for a time as other sources are converted. We understand this.

Sev~
In other words. We are about to break the game again. We understand this.

[nibel]

Read only the OP and the dev replies from the dev tracker. That is my feedback on the full thing:


(Note on the Archer's Focus Feat: This now adds 3 Ranged Power per stack instead of 2% damage to missile damage.)

There is something I requested a while back and could make Archer's Focus (and many other "stand still" abilities) a lot more competitive. Is it possible to make TUMBLING not count as movement? So this way, if you only need to make a minor adjust in your position you don't lose a huge stash of Stand and Deliver, and don't have to wait for your Archer's Focus to build up again.


Core Abilities
~ Sneak Attack (4th core): Passive: You also gain +10 Melee Power and Ranged Power (in addition to the things this ability currently does)
~ Horizon Shot: Passive: You also gain +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power (in addition to the things this ability currently does)

I think this MIGHT be a bit too much of Melee and Ranged Power.


~ Mark of the Hunted: The Fortification debuff has been raised from 10% to 25%. It now reads: "Activate: Expend a use of Animal Empathy. Your target gains -25% Fortification, -10 Armor Class, -10 Spell Resistance, and suffers a -4 penalty to all ability scores for 3 minutes."

I love the theme behind this ability, but for flavor only, do you think it is possible to make the debuff be a bit harsher IF we use it against a Favored Enemy?


~ Favored Defense: AP cost reduced to 1/1/1 AP. Is no longer a multi-selector, but instead gives the following benefits against Favored Enemies: +2/+4/+6 to Armor Class, +1/+2/+3 Saving Throws
~ Favored Hunter: (1/1/1 AP) You gain +1/+2/+3 to hit and damage against favored enemies. (This moved horizontally to the middle of Tier 3)


Good merge.


~ Tendon Cut: Bonus damage increased to +1/+2/+3[W]

And a ranged option as well?


~ Survivalist I: (2 AP) You gain 10 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 3 Physical Resistance Rating.
~ Survivalist II: (2 AP) You gain 20 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 4 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist I)
~ Survivalist III: (2 AP) You gain 30 hit points. While wearing Light Armor you gain 5 Physical Resistance Rating. (Requires Survivalist II)

...and +5 unconsciousness range per tier as well? Rangers get Die Hard as a bonus feat, they might make good use of this extended unconsciousness range.


~ Faster Sneaking: Now costs 1/1/1 AP.

...and raising it to Assassin levels? (25/50/75% speed instead of 20/30/50%)


~ Improved Weapon Finesse: This now also applies to Bows.

Thank you so very much. Finally an easy source of dex-to-damage with bows.


~ Thrill of the Hunt: AP Cost is reduced to 1/1/1 AP. "You gain +1/+2/+3 damage for 6 seconds after damaging an opponent under 50% health." (% is now the same across all three ranks).

One problem I had with this ability is that it activates on every single hit just like the old version of AA's Soul Magic did, and I was forced to remove it from my archer because it was annoying seeing the buff icon going up all the time, alongside the (short, but continuous) buffing sound.

Not a problem with the update, that I like. It is a UI thing I think should be looked into.


~ Hunter's Mercy
* Merciful Shot now works if the target is below 50% health (was 20%). The bane damage scales with 100% Ranged Power.
* Merciful Strike now works if the target is below 50% health (was 20%). The bane damage scales with 100% Melee Power.

...and against a Favored Enemy can instantly kill them if they fail a dex-based Fortitude save? I know this is a T4, but this is not as useful for a splash (that will have one or two FE only), and the HP limitation already put it a notch down compared to Assassinate or Coup de Grace.


~ Leg Shot is now identical to the Mechanic version of the same ability (+2[W] damage)

Good.


~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)
* Head Shot: Ranged Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.
* Head Strike: Melee Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.

+ Tactical DC bonus OR + double Epic Level to the DC and I call it awesome.


~ Stalker Training: Multiselector
* Improved Archer's Focus: (as per current enhancement)
* With Bow and Sword: +10 Ranged Power and +10 Melee Power
~ Strikes Like Lightning: You gain 10% Double Strike and 20% Double Shot.

Seems good. Need to test on Lama to see if this is not too much with the cores also giving a ton of MP/RP.


~ Arcane Archer will follow in a patch sometime after U28, but before U29. The tree is extremely complicated in both design and implementation and we need extra time to give it the attention it needs.

I know the answer will probably be "no, and we will never consider this an option", but I have to ask anyway.

Is there any chance at all to REMOVE Arcane Archer from Ranger, and keeping it as a elf-exclusive tree as it is supposed to be? (PnP Arcane Archer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm) requires you to be elf or half-elf)


~ We plan on also adding Tactical DC bonuses to the blind effect of Headshot/Headstrike so it scales with gear. We agree that the base DC won't scale well enough at the top end.

Also another probable rhetorical question. Any chance at all to make Ranger spellcasting be Dex-based instead of Wis-based?

Rangers will never reach the DC of full casters for a large number of reasons (lack of incentive to get spell focus feats/gear, only 4 spell levels, etc), but that might make some ranger spells at least an option while you run heroics and they are not on the autofail DC range of epic elites.

Lastly, can you guys take a look on a proposal I made a while back about merging up some categories of Favored Enemies (http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454621)? Thank you.

[nibel]

Holy sword just needs to be changed to work with your deity's favored weapon only. That is all there is to it.

Fixed that for you.

[PsychoBlonde]

That's a great point about Insightful Reflexes, well played. When you factor in Know the Angle we may be straying too far into apples to oranges territory. Instead, let's look at existing ways to get full dex to hit and damage:

Take 6 ranger levels and spend 11 AP in the tempest tree, works on all light weapons + scimitars, no feat required.
Take 3 rogue levels and spend 6 AP in the assassin tree, works on daggers and kukris. Optional spend a feat on weapon finesse to apply this for all light weapons.
Take 3 rogue levels and spend 6 AP in thief acrobat tree, works on quarterstaffs, no feat required.
Take 3 bard levels and spend 12 AP in the swashbuckler tree, works on one-handed weapons, no feat required.

You forgot Ninja Spy from monk. Works with piercing, slashing weapons and shuriken (as long as you're centered). Works on bows if you have Zen Archery btw.

[PsychoBlonde]

Is there any chance at all to REMOVE Arcane Archer from Ranger, and keeping it as a elf-exclusive tree as it is supposed to be? (PnP Arcane Archer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm) requires you to be elf or half-elf)

It's never really made any sense to me that AA is a Ranger core tree. Rangers aren't Arcane anything. But it doesn't really make any sense that Swashbuckler is a Bard tree (it's a full class in PnP).

[barecm]

Compared to the recent reworking of Paladin, Barb, and rogue; this is absolute garbage. Nothing to increase crit multipliers, or 19-20 vorpals like other trees in other classes. It took 2 years to come up with this pile? Please tell me the real version of this is still in the works because this is offensive.

[blerkington]

Compared to the recent reworking of Paladin, Barb, and rogue; this is absolute garbage. Nothing to increase crit multipliers, or 19-20 vorpals like other trees in other classes. It took 2 years to come up with this pile? Please tell me the real version of this is still in the works because this is offensive.

Hi,

Yes, it is very much weaker than those other passes. We've even had the producer admit in this thread that they consider it an auxiliary tree.


~ This tree is meant to add Versatility and DPS that stacks well on top of other trees. As such we don't expect this tree alone to provide the DPS of, say, Tempest or Swashbuckler because it is a good tree to take to stack on top of main DPS trees

So from the very start, the design principle is that DS be behind other trees. Why can't it be a main tree for some people, with them putting their spare AP into tempest or AA or whatever else? Why on Earth would you deliberately design a second rate tree? Have different themes, sure, give them a different focus and playstyle, why not, but this? Come on.

Additonally, we're being asked to comment on it before we know anything about changes in the pipeline to manyshot and the doubleshot penalty, and changes to RoF fire rules for bows. Those changes will have massive implications for whether in the long run the proposed changes to the trees are enough, not enough, or too much. What really should have been done is presenting the AA changes at the same time as DWS, along with the other changes mentioned above. So that it could all be evaluated together.

This has all the makings of being a massively underwhelming pass which leaves rangers well behind the munchkin classes for years to come. I really hope that this time around, Turbine can absorb and use some of the more sensible feedback in this thread rather than just going their own way and serving up pretty much what they initially intended. But I will be very surprised if common sense and care for the community's wishes prevails this time when it hasn't so many times in the past.

Thanks.

[barecm]

Hi,

Yes, it is very much weaker than those other passes. We've even had the producer admit in this thread that they consider it an auxiliary tree.



So from the very start, the design principle is that DS be behind other trees. Why can't it be a main tree for some people, with them putting their spare AP into tempest or AA or whatever else? Why on Earth would you deliberately design a second rate tree? Have different themes, sure, give them a different focus and playstyle, why not, but this? Come on.

Additonally, we're being asked to comment on it before we know anything about changes in the pipeline to manyshot and the doubleshot penalty, and changes to RoF fire rules for bows. Those changes will have massive implications for whether in the long run the proposed changes to the trees are enough, not enough, or too much. What really should have been done is presenting the AA changes at the same time as DWS, along with the other changes mentioned above. So that it could all be evaluated together.

This has all the makings of being a massively underwhelming pass which leaves rangers well behind the munchkin classes for years to come. I really hope that this time around, Turbine can absorb and use some of the more sensible feedback in this thread rather than just going their own way and serving up pretty much what they initially intended. But I will be very surprised if common sense and care for the community's wishes prevails this time when it hasn't so many times in the past.

Thanks.

And, complete invalidates 20 ranger as a viable class. Thanks devs, you really just took a massive dump on the ranger.

[DevilYouKnow]

Tempest :
evasive tanky frontend TWF melee
less DPS than deepwood stalker, but more tanky than stalker
have burst AOE strikes, double strike boosts, but, it's up-time should not be too long
boosts, time limited clicky based burst DPS
better use of Whirlwind Attacks
synergy with fighter-type

Deepwood "Stalker" :
sudden backstab hunter, "hiding in the weeds" flavor
more DPS than tempest, but squisher & it's situational DPS(sudden sneak attack)
have stalking ability(more use of sneaking, i.e gathering archer's focus stack on sneak move, gaining archer's focus even in melee, using archer's focus for melee, too, something like "measure the foe" ability, maybe renaming as "hunter's focus"?)
synergy with rogue-type

Arcane archer :
CC & ranged DPS master, Artillery type rather than kite-rabbit
raising some CC spell DC as practical(80+ currently), entangle, etc
web added as lvl 2 spell list
have imbue arrows
Tier 5 : more advantage from archer's focus(6 ranged power per stack), faster stacking
ranged + some CC spell

Improved precise shot as a clicky based attack, not a always toggle, but archer's focus will be applied on it.
Many ranged kiting problems is from IPS.

ps> Please don't make facerolling classes more. Make it to require "PLAYER'S SKILL", rather than toon's past-lives.

So what you saying is that deepwood stalker > tempest dps wise ? That will hopefully never happen. Especially not when tempest is considerd the primary dps tree for rangers. Worst idea i have ever seen so far.

[DevilYouKnow]

Fixed that for you.

No. Holy sword should only work with melee weapons.

[DevilYouKnow]

Hi,

Yes, it is very much weaker than those other passes. We've even had the producer admit in this thread that they consider it an auxiliary tree.



So from the very start, the design principle is that DS be behind other trees. Why can't it be a main tree for some people, with them putting their spare AP into tempest or AA or whatever else? Why on Earth would you deliberately design a second rate tree? Have different themes, sure, give them a different focus and playstyle, why not, but this? Come on.

Additonally, we're being asked to comment on it before we know anything about changes in the pipeline to manyshot and the doubleshot penalty, and changes to RoF fire rules for bows. Those changes will have massive implications for whether in the long run the proposed changes to the trees are enough, not enough, or too much. What really should have been done is presenting the AA changes at the same time as DWS, along with the other changes mentioned above. So that it could all be evaluated together.

This has all the makings of being a massively underwhelming pass which leaves rangers well behind the munchkin classes for years to come. I really hope that this time around, Turbine can absorb and use some of the more sensible feedback in this thread rather than just going their own way and serving up pretty much what they initially intended. But I will be very surprised if common sense and care for the community's wishes prevails this time when it hasn't so many times in the past.

Thanks.

Deepwood is just a filler. Tempest is the main dps tree.

[DOA666]

Could we see the stats for the DC's expanded to include Intelligence i.e. Dexterity or Intelligence as well please to allow more multi-classing opportunities as well as gelling with the harper tree?

[AbyssalMage]

Currently you are doing exactly what you said you don't want to do Sev. Don't feel like finding your quote but DWS should make players want to put (at least) 41 points in it, taking Tier 5 and Core 6. There are some helpful suggestions found on the preceding pages and I am sure more constructive suggestion will come after me but I really hope this is version 1.4 and version 2.0 or higher looks a whole lot better when it hits Lama-land.

P.S. I am really scared that you are saving AA for after the initial Ranger revamp. You did the same thing for Bard and Rogue and both those revamped tree's stunk. Find a way to release AA with Tempest and DWS, because I like my Rangers :) If nothing else, release v1.1 AA on Lama-land so you can get quality feedback and maybe it will be ready for U28.1.

[SirValentine]

How about some mild nerfs:
1. Holy sword only works with melee


I really think a Paladin should be able to use Holy weapon spell on their deity's favored weapon. I see where you're coming from, but I don't think melee-only is the right solution.

[AbyssalMage]

Could we see the stats for the DC's expanded to include Intelligence i.e. Dexterity or Intelligence as well please to allow more multi-classing opportunities as well as gelling with the harper tree?
Currently no need to. The DC's are currently found on page 1 (9/12) will be worthless once level is raised to 30 and DC's become more inflated.

I'll wait to see the final product but currently this looks to be on par with Rogue pass, which was a disappointment to me personally. Rogue Mechanic did well, but Assassin and TA were a complete waist of time for the developers.

[DevilYouKnow]

Currently you are doing exactly what you said you don't want to do Sev. Don't feel like finding your quote but DWS should make players want to put (at least) 41 points in it, taking Tier 5 and Core 6. There are some helpful suggestions found on the preceding pages and I am sure more constructive suggestion will come after me but I really hope this is version 1.4 and version 2.0 or higher looks a whole lot better when it hits Lama-land.

P.S. I am really scared that you are saving AA for after the initial Ranger revamp. You did the same thing for Bard and Rogue and both those revamped tree's stunk. Find a way to release AA with Tempest and DWS, because I like my Rangers :) If nothing else, release v1.1 AA on Lama-land so you can get quality feedback and maybe it will be ready for U28.1.

No, sir. Deepwood is just a filler. They need to concentrate more on tempest and AA.

[mezzorco]

People keep saying DWS is just a filler. How can a tree on its own right be a filler?

Then make it a four-tiers only tree and remove the lvl 20 capstone, since DWS is not intended to be a main tree.

Seriously, such a statement from a Dev is unbearable.

[DevilYouKnow]

People keep saying DWS is just a filler. How can a tree on its own right be a filler?

Then make it a four-tiers only tree and remove the lvl 20 capstone, since DWS is not intended to be a main tree.

Seriously, such a statement from a Dev is unbearable.

To be honest, DWS is just a waste of time and i hope they move on quickly to the more important ones.

I despise DWS.

[Xionanx]

lol :rolleyes:

I bet sev is kicking himself right now, as he should be, for making that statement publicly.

I personally think that every tree should be completely viable as a stand alone tree. If I take a class to 20, put 41 points in a Tree, get "Good" (not perfect) gear for that class.. then I SHOULD be capable of soloing at least EN's all the way to 28/30. If thats not possible, then that tree is **** and needs to be redone.

I personally think the development team should look at whats needed at each and every level of play and then match the bonus's for a tree with that tree's ACTUAL PLAYER (NOT INTENDED) play-style to make it viable from level 1 to 20. If, as a DWS, you can't play as a pure DWS from 1-20 with a reasonable expectation of being able to succeed at quests, then there is something wrong. **Note I say PLAYER PLAY-STYLE because we all know that how players actually play is apparently completely different then the way dev's THINK they should/do play.

"Multi-Classing" and "Synergy with other classes/trees" SHOULD NOT FACTOR IN AT ALL FOR A PARTICULAR TREE. Thats something that the players will work out on their own later, after the tree is made, when they start to min/max. Trying to "Counter" min/maxing ahead of time by keeping a tree weak on purpose and/or expecting it to be nothing more then a "Support" tree for the purposes of min/maxing is counter intuitive.

Hopefully you can have the player council members play test leveling a PURE NON-TR RANGER FROM 1-28 AS A 41 POINT DWS and then tell you if it sucks or not... because thats what should be going on.

[DevilYouKnow]

lol :rolleyes:

I bet sev is kicking himself right now, as he should be, for making that statement publicly.

I personally think that every tree should be completely viable as a stand alone tree. If I take a class to 20, put 41 points in a Tree, get "Good" (not perfect) gear for that class.. then I SHOULD be capable of soloing at least EN's all the way to 28/30. If thats not possible, then that tree is **** and needs to be redone.

I personally think the development team should look at whats needed at each and every level of play and then match the bonus's for a tree with that tree's ACTUAL PLAYER (NOT INTENDED) play-style to make it viable from level 1 to 20. If, as a DWS, you can't play as a pure DWS from 1-20 with a reasonable expectation of being able to succeed at quests, then there is something wrong. **Note I say PLAYER PLAY-STYLE because we all know that how players actually play is apparently completely different then the way dev's THINK they should/do play.

"Multi-Classing" and "Synergy with other classes/trees" SHOULD NOT FACTOR IN AT ALL FOR A PARTICULAR TREE. Thats something that the players will work out on their own later, after the tree is made, when they start to min/max. Trying to "Counter" min/maxing ahead of time by keeping a tree weak on purpose and/or expecting it to be nothing more then a "Support" tree for the purposes of min/maxing is counter intuitive.

Hopefully you can have the player council members play test leveling a PURE NON-TR RANGER FROM 1-28 AS A 41 POINT DWS and then tell you if it sucks or not... because thats what should be going on.

There always has to be a filler tree. Just take a look at bards and spellsinger, Casters via EK and Clerics aka warpriest.

It all sums up. No need to waste time on such.

[Xionanx]

There always has to be a filler tree. Just take a look at bards and spellsinger, Casters via EK and Clerics aka warpriest.

It all sums up. No need to waste time on such.

?? So.. because those tree's suck and are filler trees, there is no point in FIXING THEM so that they AREN'T just filler tree's?

"The Squeeky Wheel Gets The Grease" ... the WORST tree's should be the the trees that get the most love, so they stop being the worst tree's and become something someone actually wants to be.

[Qhualor]

I wasn't exactly thrilled when I read Sevs post on this tree being a versatile tree, but I don't think we need 2 trees for ranged and 1 tree for melee. there is some difference between AA and DWS, but its always appeared to me as ranger/rogue tree if players wanted to go that route. now the proposed changes looks to have taken that type of build out as a good extra point tree for AA and Tempest. for it to be a standalone tree, you would need to eliminate DWS and replace it with a different ranger prestige that doesn't focus on ranged or dps.

[DevilYouKnow]

?? So.. because those tree's suck and are filler trees, there is no point in FIXING THEM so that they AREN'T just filler tree's?

"The Squeeky Wheel Gets The Grease" ... the WORST tree's should be the the trees that get the most love, so they stop being the worst tree's and become something someone actually wants to be.

Exactly what i mean.

[Vellrad]

I really think a Paladin should be able to use Holy weapon spell on their deity's favored weapon. I see where you're coming from, but I don't think melee-only is the right solution.

So, in other words, remove holy sword from game?
Anyone uses those godawful terible deity weapons on non-flavor self gimped build anyway?
Edit:
I just remindered: longbow is the only good deity weapon in game, so yeah, this nerf hurts melee paladins, but leaves ranger/palading multiclasses unchanged.

[davmuzl]

My main question for this ranger pass is: How is ranger going to be different from other classes, mainly Paladin.
Paladin in my mind should be really strong against undead and evil outsiders (basically top DPS), strong againts other evil/chaotic enemies and mediocre against everything else. Over rangers they have the advantage of being able to survive more damage(they usually wear heavy armor and right now most Paladins use their defense stance) and they have LoH. I would also argue that deathward is more useful than freedom of movement most of the time.

Rangers on the other hand get the ability to focus on both ranged and melee damage at the same time. That's nice, but not really what's going to convince me that ranger is better than Paladin overall.

Basically when rangers and Paladins have the same DPS, it looks like Paladin is the better choice because of better mitigation and utility options.
How powerful do you (Devs) expect the ranger to be after this pass (mainly in terms of DPS)? What reasons do you see to grab a ranger instead of a Paladin?

Edit: It would be nice if these kinds of questions would be adressed in detail before we are told about what the changes exactly are.

I talked to a friend about these changes and we came to the conclusion that it would be good if mark of the hunted made the enemy vulnarable to sneak attacks.

[CeltEireson]

Currently no need to. The DC's are currently found on page 1 (9/12) will be worthless once level is raised to 30 and DC's become more inflated.

I'll wait to see the final product but currently this looks to be on par with Rogue pass, which was a disappointment to me personally. Rogue Mechanic did well, but Assassin and TA were a complete waist of time for the developers.

If youre referring to head shot they did say that anything that improved tactics generally would effect this so I would assume any enhancements, epic destiny abilities and the likes of combat mastery would improve the DC. Whether they also tie it to one of the specific tactics bonuses is another matter.

[barecm]

The question then becomes why don't other classes have a support / complete waste tree? I get that there are limited resources for development, but putting something completely useless out there like this pile of steaming you know what, is offensive. Couple that with the fact that they have been waiting on ranger to be revamped for over 2 years, and this garbage is what they come up with? Please. Put this type of support nonsense tree in a caster class or barb and/or paladin and see what type of reaction you get. I am not sure who thought this was a good idea, but listen to the community on this one. it stinks badly. It is a waste of your development time and will basically make the class worse than it was before. What happened to the idea of getting folks to not just use ranger as a splash class? This is making it even more so. The devs really got it wrong with this one. Bad, bad, bad. Kiss ranger class goodbye. Rangers will now have 2 underpowered trees and one useless one. Good work! We need some new blood in the decision making process because this is awful.

No increase ROF/Attack speed
No crit range expansion
No expanded vorpal range.

All you had to do is look at what other classes are getting and you have the blue print right in front of you. Paladin and Barb both have crit expansion. Rogue is still way better at ranged combat than a ranger. How is that even remotely ok with you guys? I am completely at a loss on how badly you handle the ranger class. I just don't get it.

[nibel]

So, in other words, remove holy sword from game?
Anyone uses those godawful terible deity weapons on non-flavor self gimped build anyway?

That's why they should also give something else (http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/459754) to divine classes once you choose your deity, and buff up the divine feats that are currently a weak form of weapon focus (no Melee Power, only work with one weapon). But we are digressing the discussion from Ranger. Let's keep on topic.

Another thing that I think should be implemented with the ranger pass (or shortly after, like they intend to do with AA) is some new spells (http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/457006). Giving rangers good spells to fight for spell slots will make them a tough choice to go 14+ just like Paladin.

[HastyPudding]

There always has to be a filler tree. Just take a look at bards and spellsinger, Casters via EK and Clerics aka warpriest.

It all sums up. No need to waste time on such.

Joking, right? The problem with warpriest and EK is their ter 5's aren't up to par with most of the other 'dps' trees, and also the fact that they're not real DPS trees: they're support, not in the sense that they're a filler tree, but in the sense that they're not full DPS. You wouldn't call cleric's radiant servant or paladin's sacred defender a DPS tree. Having taken both of those trees to tier 5 and capstoned on various characters, they're not made for all-out DPS. Warpriest is a frontline healer, sacred defender is a tank's tank, radiant servant is a true healer, and eldritch knight is a defensive caster.

Now, I got words with you on spellsinger. You might like all of these multiclass or 'spellsinger with a rapier and swashbuckler enhancements' builds, but when built pure and as a spellcaster, a spellsinger is arguably the best in the game when it comes to crowd control/enchantment and party support. I've built entire characters around being an end-game spellsinger, done perfectly well in CCing end-game EE's, healing raids, and providing respectable damage in the form of sonic spells in quests on EH.

Think first before you go spouting this nonsense about filler trees. Not everybody likes nothing but left clicking and damage.

[legendkilleroll]

The question then becomes why don't other classes have a support / complete waste tree? I get that there are limited resources for development, but putting something completely useless out there like this pile of steaming you know what, is offensive. Couple that with the fact that they have been waiting on ranger to be revamped for over 2 years, and this garbage is what they come up with? Please. Put this type of support nonsense tree in a caster class or barb and/or paladin and see what type of reaction you get. I am not sure who thought this was a good idea, but listen to the community on this one. it stinks badly. It is a waste of your development time and will basically make the class worse than it was before. What happened to the idea of getting folks to not just use ranger as a splash class? This is making it even more so. The devs really got it wrong with this one. Bad, bad, bad. Kiss ranger class goodbye. Rangers will now have 2 underpowered trees and one useless one. Good work! We need some new blood in the decision making process because this is awful.

No increase ROF/Attack speed
No crit range expansion
No expanded vorpal range.

All you had to do is look at what other classes are getting and you have the blue print right in front of you. Paladin and Barb both have crit expansion. Rogue is still way better at ranged combat than a ranger. How is that even remotely ok with you guys? I am completely at a loss on how badly you handle the ranger class. I just don't get it.

And i just dont get the people who want to see this as the next OP, FotM, Steamroll all content. Yes improvements are needed but not a copy of all the other trees that already making the game to easy

Yes rangers need to be buffed but no way should they all be going the Barb etc route, its riduculous. As for the bolded part, the community makes it OP then next month complaints begin about how easy it is

Not sure how its worse than before, my friend is ranger, no monk levels, rarely dies in EE and always is up there with DPS, maybe people need to actually start playing properly instead of expecting everything to be Warlock-esque where 1 or 2 buttons wipes everything out.

[legendkilleroll]

Think first before you go spouting this nonsense about filler trees. Not everybody likes nothing but left clicking and damage.

Yup SS isnt a filler tree, he only knows how to activate masters blitz.

[DevilYouKnow]

Yup SS isnt a filler tree, he only knows how to activate masters blitz.

How so ? Even the dev himself stated that it is supposed to be a filler tree.

Not sure what you mean by this ? Translation ?

[DevilYouKnow]

Joking, right? The problem with warpriest and EK is their ter 5's aren't up to par with most of the other 'dps' trees, and also the fact that they're not real DPS trees: they're support, not in the sense that they're a filler tree, but in the sense that they're not full DPS. You wouldn't call cleric's radiant servant or paladin's sacred defender a DPS tree. Having taken both of those trees to tier 5 and capstoned on various characters, they're not made for all-out DPS. Warpriest is a frontline healer, sacred defender is a tank's tank, radiant servant is a true healer, and eldritch knight is a defensive caster.

Now, I got words with you on spellsinger. You might like all of these multiclass or 'spellsinger with a rapier and swashbuckler enhancements' builds, but when built pure and as a spellcaster, a spellsinger is arguably the best in the game when it comes to crowd control/enchantment and party support. I've built entire characters around being an end-game spellsinger, done perfectly well in CCing end-game EE's, healing raids, and providing respectable damage in the form of sonic spells in quests on EH.

Think first before you go spouting this nonsense about filler trees. Not everybody likes nothing but left clicking and damage.

Support tree = filler tree, as stated before by the developer himself. End of story.

[DevilYouKnow]

And i just dont get the people who want to see this as the next OP, FotM, Steamroll all content. Yes improvements are needed but not a copy of all the other trees that already making the game to easy

Yes rangers need to be buffed but no way should they all be going the Barb etc route, its riduculous. As for the bolded part, the community makes it OP then next month complaints begin about how easy it is

Not sure how its worse than before, my friend is ranger, no monk levels, rarely dies in EE and always is up there with DPS, maybe people need to actually start playing properly instead of expecting everything to be Warlock-esque where 1 or 2 buttons wipes everything out.

SS or it didn't happen.

Sorry but currently there is no such thing as ranger without monk levels.

The dev team is fully aware of that, that is why it needs to be properly adressed.

[legendkilleroll]

SS or it didn't happen.

Sorry but currently there is no such thing as ranger without monk levels.

The dev team is fully aware of that, that is why it needs to be properly adressed.

I dont have one and even if i did i wouldnt give you it

Some players can just perform whatever they play, others just want it all easy.

[DevilYouKnow]

I dont have one and even if i did i wouldnt give you it

Some players can just perform whatever they play, others just want it all easy.

Because it is not true. Have a nice day.

[Qhualor]

SS or it didn't happen.

Sorry but currently there is no such thing as ranger without monk levels.

The dev team is fully aware of that, that is why it needs to be properly adressed.

I know for a fact one guy in this thread plays a pure ranger and is very good. Won't say who unless he speaks up.

The problem is someone creates a good build and players follow that build. They think because it performs very well that all other builds are not as good. This is completely false, as long as all things being equal.

[Faltout]

So the proposed changes add more melee power, more PRR, more hit points basically. And then there are some exceptional abilities like Head Shot, Mark of the Haunted, etc.
Why doesn't this tree tie more damage and EFFECTS with sneak attacks instead of just adding to the general power? How is this tree supposed to be unique compared to the other trees and classes? Or you don't care about uniqueness and just want to be equal in power with the OP rogue mechanic or OP paladin KotC (like some players here are suggesting)?

What about poisoned arrows? What about hamstring (with stunning DC) upon each shot? What about kill shots (with assassinate DC)? What about an entangle SLA? How about a smoke screen attack? How about buffs for summons/charmed monsters? How about an attack that does not do damage but applies web to every enemy hit?

Why is every update mainstreaming the classes instead of adding unique abilities?

[the_one_dwarfforged]

All the melee stuff in this tree is dex only.
We havent seen tempest yet, but even live version is giving dex stuff, and only str related thing is choose dex or str, you get dex to hit, dex to damage, dex capstone, and if they will add anything its DC will be dex based, and I can bet any money on that.

Ranger is obligated to be dex only class, and using alternate stat for damage is SUPERIOR not suboptimal, because STR does ONLY to hit/damage, while dex adds relfex and AC, so you only gain and don't lose anything, and you don't have anything boosting str based builds in trees, which is extremally stupid because rangers get str to damage with bows, so its logical that they should get some str stuff, or str/dex selectors at least.

agreed, this needs attention. my main character is entirely geared out for str from lvl 1-28, but i have very minimal investment into dex items, and stunning blow and trip are str based dcs. id prefer to be able to sue any ranger dc enhancements without having to sacrifice stun and trip. i dont see any reason to force this when the main appeal of the game is choice...such as it is...

also, i think holy sword should be put into kotc t5s and/or limited to only weapons that actually are swords (or straight bladed swords, so that greatswords besides esos would have some use). the power of holy sword, and the source of the build disparity it causes, is how unrestricted it is. it doesnt really need too much of a direct dps nerf, just a nerf to how easy it is to get given how strong it is. making a change like this to holy sword, which was mentioned as something that was going to happen, will make it a lot easier to make tempest competetive without going over board on the cores.

head shot as it currently is (just an auto crit and chance to blind) is not something id spend points on. chance to blind simply isnt that appealing, because it doesnt do anything except make 1 trash enemy run around like a headless chicken for 2 seconds until its dead. and auto crits are pointless, considering the prevalence of crit enhancing buffs and abilities, and the sheer number of attacks we make in this game. honestly auto crit may as well not be there.


regarding upcoming tempest and a tree changes:

i hope that for tempest you focus on adding a lot of on hit effects (for example, all attacks now cause the target to bleed (with similar power to ninja poison, not the awful 1d6 bleeds littering the scene), and deal 1d6 [some naturey dmg type} that scales with melee power, possibly more if needed) and furthering the double strike and offhand double strike theme of the tree. currently t3 of a thousand cuts is not very good, because unless you are a first life character, you are going to be wating a lot of that 90% double strike. either tone it down, but have it add offhand double strike as well, or put into the tempest 18/20 core that exceeding 100% double strike allows you to triple strike. also make the up time better, or create additional enhancements like this, either clickies or passives that trigger on crit or when attacking a bleeding target or some mechanic like that. adding some melee power and some alacrity to the tree would probably round it out very nicely, and assuming the numbers were right balance the tree against barb and pally dps without resorting to "rangers now have +19 crit range and +2 crit multiplier with all weapons".

for aa, i would like to see it becomes much less of a passive tree, and more of an active one. add to each of the elemental imbues an active shot themed with each element that is based on a str/dex/wis dc + ranger level + gear, and write them with intent to combo with each other. for example, if you take frost arrows, you now have an ability that allows you to fire and arrow which upon a successful dc check freezes an enemy in place (just like any other freeze currently in game, grants addy dr and helplessness). now with the flaming arrows stance, you gain another attacking called exploding or detonating arrow or something. if fired at a frozen or petrified enemy it rolls another save against your dc and if it fails it shatters. making changes like this to banishing, smiting, terror, and force arrows as well would make them a lot more interesting. i also have to agree 100% that the changes to ranged rangers should coincide with any changes to manyshot, otherwise youre just shooting yourselves in the foot and wasting time.

[ValariusK]

Bottom lines:
Ranger has comparable utility to a paladin, but MUCH worse defense. They should therefore do more damage per unit time than a paladin, probably by at least 20%. If the pass does not do this, it has failed. If that's too much dps, you need to nerf paladins such that they do an amount that you can comfortably add 20% to for a ranger.
The amount of damage that holy sword adds is extremely large, taking an SOS from 30%/3x (60%) to 40%/4x (120%). That's 60%, and that 60% is more than effectively 60 Melee power or 60 ranged power. In fact it's closer to 120 ranged or melee power because we all know the most common power build is LD, which has melee power well over 100 when blitz is running, which it ALWAYS is when it matters.
This is why 14P/6 ranger or 15 P/5 ranger is presently the best Ranger, in the sense that a ranger is a hybrid 2wf/bow combatant with self-healing and some utility. To change that you're going to need to pack a lot into Tempest---or alternatively you could tone down paladins and barbarians.
Here's the DPS hierarchy as it SHOULD be:
Fighters---on top because they have no decent self healing (not even extra heal amp or wand/scroll mastery) and no party utility to speak of
Barbarians---beefy with ok self healing and no party utility and Rangers---brittle but some party utility and also ok self healing, also Rogues (brittle like rangers, substantial utility but poor self heals)
Paladins--excellent defense some party utility and excellent self heals

Right now its like this:
Barbs and Pallies
Rogues in actually the right spot
Rangers and fighters

[salmag]

NOTE TO SEVERLIN

I just read through this entire thread and if what Sev said is true about Deepwood Stalker being second fiddle to Tempest, then it looks like my ranger will remain shelved.

THAT is just bad business, Sev. You should want anyone to spend 40+ points in any tree they want AND for that tree to be viable. Saying that DWS is NOT a main tree option ruins the class, and pigeon-holes them away from level 20.

Please re-consider your position on this matter AND make DWS something players should want to focus on.

I agree completely with this quote (please re-read it):


barecm

The question then becomes why don't other classes have a support / complete waste tree? I get that there are limited resources for development, but putting something completely useless out there like this pile of steaming you know what, is offensive. Couple that with the fact that they have been waiting on ranger to be revamped for over 2 years, and this garbage is what they come up with? Please. Put this type of support nonsense tree in a caster class or barb and/or paladin and see what type of reaction you get. I am not sure who thought this was a good idea, but listen to the community on this one. it stinks badly. It is a waste of your development time and will basically make the class worse than it was before. What happened to the idea of getting folks to not just use ranger as a splash class? This is making it even more so. The devs really got it wrong with this one. Bad, bad, bad. Kiss ranger class goodbye. Rangers will now have 2 underpowered trees and one useless one. Good work! We need some new blood in the decision making process because this is awful.

No increase ROF/Attack speed
No crit range expansion
No expanded vorpal range.

All you had to do is look at what other classes are getting and you have the blue print right in front of you. Paladin and Barb both have crit expansion. Rogue is still way better at ranged combat than a ranger. How is that even remotely ok with you guys? I am completely at a loss on how badly you handle the ranger class. I just don't get it.

[DevilYouKnow]

Bottom lines:
Ranger has comparable utility to a paladin, but MUCH worse defense. They should therefore do more damage per unit time than a paladin, probably by at least 20%. If the pass does not do this, it has failed. If that's too much dps, you need to nerf paladins such that they do an amount that you can comfortably add 20% to for a ranger.
The amount of damage that holy sword adds is extremely large, taking an SOS from 30%/3x (60%) to 40%/4x (120%). That's 60%, and that 60% is more than effectively 60 Melee power or 60 ranged power. In fact it's closer to 120 ranged or melee power because we all know the most common power build is LD, which has melee power well over 100 when blitz is running, which it ALWAYS is when it matters.
This is why 14P/6 ranger or 15 P/5 ranger is presently the best Ranger, in the sense that a ranger is a hybrid 2wf/bow combatant with self-healing and some utility. To change that you're going to need to pack a lot into Tempest---or alternatively you could tone down paladins and barbarians.
Here's the DPS hierarchy as it SHOULD be:
Fighters---on top because they have no decent self healing (not even extra heal amp or wand/scroll mastery) and no party utility to speak of
Barbarians---beefy with ok self healing and no party utility and Rangers---brittle but some party utility and also ok self healing, also Rogues (brittle like rangers, substantial utility but poor self heals)
Paladins--excellent defense some party utility and excellent self heals

Right now its like this:
Barbs and Pallies
Rogues in actually the right spot
Rangers and fighters

Just wait until they get tempest done. I have got my hopes up for this specific tree.

[azrael4h]

The problem is someone creates a good build and players follow that build. They think because it performs very well that all other builds are not as good. This is completely false, as long as all things being equal.

There's also the problem that for many, if it is not top-DPS then it is worthless. This thinking is prevalent among the most vocal of forum goers, which is why we now have massive increases to DPS (and mitigation) on several classes.

Rangers hit this wall back post U5, after Tempest was nerfed into oblivion. However, they still had solid dps, I had an Exploiter, so I'm well aware of what one was capable of. Whereas I couldn't out dps a comparably geared Barbarian or Fighter Kensai of the day, I could survive spell damage that would cause them to die and cry like little children who got spanked. I also healed the chew toy in an elite HoX once when the cleric got bees and died, until the pups were charmed and I could raise said cleric. Then I healed myself and two others on one side while we let the pups do their thing. That character could handle every trap in the game as well. During the Great Blades Debacle, I could jump out, hit manyshot, and continue to DPS Harry while the Barbs and Fighters pew pewed with throwing weapons. The survivability and versatility was great, and that exploiter was probably my favorite character from Pre-MotU days. In a group makeup, when we were running 20 content, she was my go-to because she could fill any needed role in a pinch; spot healing, trapping, dps, support, etc... Yet I only got groups because people knew the character's name, and also knew I had two healers, and was a good raid healer back then, good enough that I could solo heal any raid in the game on elite, except Abbot, which I still have never ran. And I blacklisted for refusing group entry to Rangers and Paladins (or any class). Healers were difficult to find back then, to the point that I stayed on timer for most raids constantly, and got tells constantly asking to come heal this ToD or that VoD. So ****ing one off was not a smart decision.

IMO, what Sev or whoever is making decisions for DDO this week needs to do, is sit down and create a vision of what each class should be, in DDO and in a group dynamic. Then balance all classes based on that. What is a Ranger to DDO? What is a Ranger to the group? While the design of the game has rendered DPS the primary factor of success, with PRR and MRR being a close second because of design, just giving everyone top DPS and top healing and easy 90+PRR/MRR just means we all have mildly different flavors of the same class.

So stop the ad hoc revamps briefly, and decide what each class is to be, and what each class brings to the table. And then rework all of them based on that.

As far as this tree, others have already said my feelings on different aspects so I'll refrain from making this post into a John Grisham novel. I can sum it up in a three letter word though. Meh.

[Axeyu]

NOTE TO SEVERLIN

I just read through this entire thread and if what Sev said is true about Deepwood Stalker being second fiddle to Tempest, then it looks like my ranger will remain shelved.

THAT is just bad business, Sev. You should want anyone to spend 40+ points in any tree they want AND for that tree to be viable. Saying that DWS is NOT a main tree option ruins the class, and pigeon-holes them away from level 20.

Please re-consider your position on this matter AND make DWS something players should want to focus on.

I agree completely with this quote (please re-read it):

Please don't listen to the nay sayers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with DWS not being a top DPS tree. It's not unfair or bad that every tree isn't exactly as good in every situation. There is nothing wrong with a tree that is designed to be at it's strongest for multiclasse, for example.

A tree that is "meant to add Versatility and DPS that stacks well on top of other trees" sounds really great and interesting from a character customizaion perspective.



How exactly does it ruin the class? There is a melee tree and a ranged tree, are you really saying that the third tree must be something specific or the whole class is ruined? That is ridiculous!

[DevilYouKnow]

Please don't listen to the nay sayers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with DWS not being a top DPS tree. It's not unfair or bad that every tree isn't exactly as good in every situation. There is nothing wrong with a tree that is designed to be at it's strongest for multiclasse, for example.

A tree that is "meant to add Versatility and DPS that stacks well on top of other trees" sounds really great and interesting from a character customizaion perspective.



How exactly does it ruin the class? There is a melee tree and a ranged tree, are you really saying that the third tree must be something specific or the whole class is ruined? That is ridiculous!

I totally agree on this ! Well done, sir ! Please move on to tempest as quick as possible devs !

[Vellrad]

agreed, this needs attention. my main character is entirely geared out for str from lvl 1-28, but i have very minimal investment into dex items, and stunning blow and trip are str based dcs. id prefer to be able to sue any ranger dc enhancements without having to sacrifice stun and trip. i dont see any reason to force this when the main appeal of the game is choice...such as it is...


Another thing, I simply can't understand why bother with dex melee ranger.
The main (if not only) draw of ranger for melee builds is TWF feat line without dex requirement- allowing to actually dump dex entirely and still get TWF feats.
Why would anyone want to build ranger based on stat they can safely ignore? If you got this dex, get different class and get feats instead, and you will be better.

[mezzorco]

A tree that is "meant to add Versatility and DPS that stacks well on top of other trees" sounds really great and interesting from a character customizaion perspective.

What versatility does exactly DWS add? Lesser vigor 5/day? Or are you talking about -25% fort 5/day? Please.

It would be ok for me if it were a more support tree, adding healing and survivability.
But it doesn't do this either. It just gives 12 prr to a melee class in light armor, and not a single point of dodge.
It does not add healing spells or SLAs.
It does not give you a tanky pet, that would have been a very flavourful way to take off melee pressure from yourself, thus directly adding to survivability.

The problem here is not that its goal isn't top dps, the problem is that THIS TREE DOES NOT FULFILL ANY MAYOR GOAL.

It's just a heap of "put it in the garbage collector tree".

[Axeyu]

What versatility does exactly DWS add? Lesser vigor 5/day? Or are you talking about -25% fort 5/day? Please.

It would be ok for me if it were a more support tree, adding healing and survivability.
But it doesn't do this either. It just gives 12 prr to a melee class in light armor, and not a single point of dodge.
It does not add healing spells or SLAs.
It does not give you a tanky pet, that would have been a very flavourful way to take off melee pressure from yourself, thus directly adding to survivability.

The problem here is not that its goal isn't top dps, the problem is that THIS TREE DOES NOT FULFILL ANY MAYOR GOAL.

It's just a heap of "put it in the garbage collector tree" .

So maybe the focus of the thread should be that instead of "boho filler tree".

[Grailhawk]

Please don't listen to the nay sayers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with DWS not being a top DPS tree. It's not unfair or bad that every tree isn't exactly as good in every situation. There is nothing wrong with a tree that is designed to be at it's strongest for multiclasse, for example.

A tree that is "meant to add Versatility and DPS that stacks well on top of other trees" sounds really great and interesting from a character customizaion perspective.



How exactly does it ruin the class? There is a melee tree and a ranged tree, are you really saying that the third tree must be something specific or the whole class is ruined? That is ridiculous!


I agree with this in general but I feel the Tier 5's and/or the Core 20 should be something interesting. IMO changing Headshot to an insta-kill would do that It would give the tree something unique that other ranger trees don't have. Or maybe had both headshot and the capstone be insta-kills If its not going to be the top DPS i could at least offer a fun and different play style, instead of just being gimp.

[DevilYouKnow]

I agree with this in general but I feel the Tier 5's and/or the Core 20 should be something interesting. IMO changing Headshot to an insta-kill would do that It would give the tree something unique that other ranger trees don't have. Or maybe had both headshot and the capstone be insta-kills If its not going to be the top DPS i could at least offer a fun and different play style, instead of just being gimp.

Not trying to be funny. But maybe it is supposed to be gimp ?

[Grailhawk]

Not trying to be funny. But maybe it is supposed to be gimp ?

Hey sev is he right is the intention for the tree to be gimp and uninteresting? Is this guy right?

[salmag]

Originally Posted by Axeyu

How exactly does it ruin the class? There is a melee tree and a ranged tree, are you really saying that the third tree must be something specific or the whole class is ruined? That is ridiculous!

I should have said that it ruins it for me, at least.

Look at the trees of other classes. Basically, all of them could be main focuses, except for DWS. DWS is pretty much a splash only. So, why not make all classes have a melee, range and splash option? Would you be ok with that? I'm wouldn't.

All trees for all classes should be viable options, not just splashes.

SO NO TO SPLASH TREES.

[Aletys]

I use a repeater on my rangers. The changes allow swapping out the 41 AP in AA to DWS and Harper while maintaining the 20% doubleshot, and gaining ~50 ranged power.

With 50-80 damage hits, this will add 25-40 damage a hit, and horizon shot will enable another 15-30 a hit in sneak damage.

This is balanced and seems good enough to be competitive with a mechanic.

It is irrelevant what the tree does for bows, since they simply don't fire fast enough, and even if they did, they don't inherently penta-hit special attacks.

~snip~

If I want a high dps repeater build, I'll run a mechanic. My mechanic also had significantly higher ranged power than this (before I TR'd her), so these changes do not make the ranger competitive. My ranger, my arty & my mechanic all do more damage than 25-80 with the right bows/repeaters/Xbows & DR breakers. My level 28 AA does 85-90 per hit with only 26 ranged power, using a level 16 bow (I put her into magister and didn't activate any twists to minimize the effect of epic destinies in the testing). So if the numbers you're quoting are what we can expect, this pass is not an improvement, it's a nerf.

You discount bows because of their low rate of fire & lack of special attacks in comparison to repeaters. By that reasoning, the mechanic tree should have done nothing for great crossbows (it is the slowest of the ranged weapons by far, and was universally ignored by most players until the mechanic pass), yet that is now the preferred mechanic weapon because of the massive damage it does with the improved mechanic enhancements.

What needs to be done is to make the bow enhancements as compelling for a ranger as the great crossbow/repeater enhancements are for mechanics. The ranger +W bow enhancements have never worked since the enhancement pass 2 years ago, which has not helped the situation any.

Instead of three viable ranger trees, each of which has compelling enhancements in it & each of which is a viable option when taken to cap (aka: warlock), rangers are getting a "meh" tree, which is supposed to be a "supporting" tree. If this had been done for warlock, the screams would still be raging. Right now, I see nothing in this tree that is compelling for an AA ranger, a class which some lfms don't want in their party, because they don't put out enough dps.

This whole tree appears to be aimed at multi-classers, not at pure rangers. The mechanic tree & the warlock trees are attractive to both pures & to multi-classers ... this proposed tree is not. Give the pure rangers something to work with, right now we have almost nothing.

[HuneyMunster]

Replace "BLIND" in Head Shot with "KILL". If you want it to be competitive and have something other ranger trees do not.
Alternatively replace "BLIND" with some affect that works on bosses... 10% vulnerability? That would be PRE defining as well.

Also for being a "stalker". One who "stalks" which suggests movement around the prey... this PRE does best when standing still.
Deepwood Stander? Hmmm... what if they could maintain archer's focus while sneaking?

I can see problems with a ranged assassinate ability added without major restrictions or a long cooldown. But, Bard already have one in swashbuckler with ranged version of CdG that does have a restriction.

If Head Shot as a Kill ability can proc on all targets hit when using IPS with Leg Shot, this could become too powerful. I would probably add a sneak attack requirement for kill chance with blind on non-sneak attack. But, Rangers can get 45 meters range on a sneak attack with all core of DWS and that a lot of potential to get instant kills out of sight of mobs and never getting any agro from other mobs close to them. So I would limited it to the standard 15 meters range of a sneak attack and no range limit to blind effect.

[Axeyu]

I should have said that it ruins it for me, at least.

Look at the trees of other classes. Basically, all of them could be main focuses, except for DWS. DWS is pretty much a splash only. So, why not make all classes have a melee, range and splash option? Would you be ok with that? I'm wouldn't.

All trees for all classes should be viable options, not just splashes.

SO NO TO SPLASH TREES.

If you make a rational argument then maybe someone will listen to you.

[FestusHood]

Deepwood could provide the function of being a support tree for the other trees without being designed that way. The other two trees are primarily ranged or melee, and by being a hybrid tree deepwood would have enhancements that could provide benefit to both. That said, it should be viable on it's own as a hybrid playstyle.

Yesterday i had mistakenly thought deepwoods 20% double shot was in it's capstone, i see now that it is tier 5, so it could be stacked with the AA capstone to give 40% doubleshot. It would require spending all of your points in those two trees, but so be it. With the option to have up to 20% more at any given time using killer. This would be a good match for 10k stars, but only if the debuff to doubleshot wasn't such a huge factor.

How can they remove the post manyshot doubleshot penalty without still leaving monkchers clearly better than non monkcher archers? I guess you could simply have it apply to 10k stars, but not manyshot, and then adjust the time it applies for balance. Rangers should still be able to get higher doubleshot numbers anyway, since the only way a monkcher could get the AA capstone is through elf, and i don't think there is enough ap to get that and also tier 5 from deepwood.

People have mentioned that there are no alacrity bonuses in this tree. Alacrity doesn't work so well with bows, since it only applies about half of it's effect to actual fire rate due to firing and reloading being seen as two different actions by the game. When they rebuilt the crossbow animation one of the things that did was to unify the two actions so that alacrity bonuses applly to both. So 10% alacrity actually meant you fired 10% more often. The result is that now crossbows actually fire faster than bows, especially great crossbows with mechanical reloader.

Can they, or will they do a similar overhaul to bow animation? If not, then doubleshot bonuses can effectively make up the difference, since either alacrity or double shot both produce the effect of firing more arrows over time.

[blerkington]

Deepwood is just a filler. Tempest is the main dps tree.

Hi,

Yes, that is pretty much what the producer said, so you are just repeating him. The point of my post was, why would you do that? It seems quite arbitrary to designate DWS as a support tree when other trees are given a host of very powerful abilities and can stand on their own.

As another poster astutely pointed out, it's not a good support tree either. If this were the intention, then the tree could have been stacked with genuinely useful abilities, not what is being proposed. If you go through the tree, most of the abilities are combat based anyway, just not particularly good ones.

What I see here is a very half-arsed job, which is being trotted out in the hope that we'll buy the excuse that the other trees will be better and archers will also be helped by subsequent rules changes to manyshot, doubleshot, RoF, etc. Of course, whether or not that actually happens to the extent it should is something else again. At this point we are being asked to take that on faith. It would be very easy to get to the final step of this process, after offering the benefit of the doubt at each stage, only to realise we've been bilked and it's now too late to do anything about it.

Is the development team finally realising they went too far with the munchkin classes? If so, they might want to consider that stopping that approach halfway is the worst possible solution. The result will be that the munchkin classes remain overpowered relative to others, while anything reviewed in this new light will remain substantially behind for a period of years while this whole exercise comes around again.

In a game where bards (a support class), along with throwers and crossbow users can put out enormous amounts of damage, there's no reason why rangers should be relegated to second place. Make a serious attempt at fixing the problems with archery compared to other ranged styles, and let rangers be competitive with other classes when it comes to ranged combat instead of preserving a system where monks, paladins and even rogues are so superior at it.

Thanks.

[LordTigerDawn]

I have concerns about this comment:

~ This tree is meant to add Versatility and DPS that stacks well on top of other trees. As such we don't expect this tree alone to provide the DPS of, say, Tempest or Swashbuckler because it is a good tree to take to stack on top of main DPS trees
From Severlin

DWS was the primary tree used by throwing builds until mechanic was updated. So there has been a history of it being the primary dps tree for some builds.

****

Tier 1-4 are pretty much just updates and ap costing adjustments.

Tier 5 seems to be where the discussion is. First as this is tier 5, there is no excuse not to make these abilities good for dps. One cannot pick multiple tier 5's.

****

Head Shot: Blind needs to be changed to stun for 3 seconds, because running after a mob that is blinded and running away randomly is not what a ranged build wants to do. The enemy is already at range, and the mob is running even farther away. This is just flat out annoying.

Also making this a ranged coup de grace would be a mistake.

****

Stalker Training:
I played improved archers focus a lot, before mechanic and it is a different play style, than the usual improved precise shot builds. This is an opportunity to build on this difference rather than make it even worse.

Math calcs ahead:
Regular Archer's focus is 15 stacks, which is

15*3=45 Ranged Power

You add +10 ranged power from "with bow and sword"

45 + 10 = 55 Ranged Power

With Imp Archers Focus, 25 stacks

25*3=75 Ranged Power (cannot take bow and sword)

There is a difference of 20 Ranged Power, in a very specialized circumstance (standing still and hitting red names (because everything else is dead before that), after waiting for 15 stacks from the regular archer focus to build up) to see any benefit.

That is terrible. Action Boost Ranged Power is a better use of points, for 2 points it gives the exact same benefit, with no waiting.

****

My proposal is this:

Make Improved Archers Focus change the 3 Ranged Power it would normally give to 6 Ranged power for each stack. Still only have it go to 15 stacks.

This make the benefit start from the beginning, make it take a lot less time to build up. It would be an actual ability as to the other thing nobody takes.

It would certainly make taking improved precise shot a choice instead of a necessity.

Promote 2 different ranged play styles.

***

Please fix the Swashbuckler - Shuriken Multiplier bug

[Mindos]

Core 5: Costs one use of animal empathy and 100sp: Your summons now have a hireling bar, and do not count as a party slot.
Core 6: You can now have two summons at once, each with a hireling bar. Your summons respawn if killed within 10 min counter.

[salmag]

If you make a rational argument then maybe someone will listen to you.

I stated I read everything and agree with the complaints.
So you would like me to repeat, ad nauseum, what everyone else is saying? So we all sound like a broken record.
Perhaps the Devs will listen to that. Try again.
No one listens to broken records.

[Axeyu]

I stated I read everything and agree with the complaints.
So you would like me to repeat, ad nauseum, what everyone else is saying? So we all sound like a broken record.
Perhaps the Devs will listen to that. Try again.
No one listens to broken records.

A broken record is better than a completely illogical one. Your previous post made no sense.

If the argument against this DWS theme is that paladins must also get a ranged tree then your position is pretty weak.

[DevilYouKnow]

It seems that you guys still do not understand the math behind a flat bonus to your ranged power and percentage bonus to your overall damage.

Those are the formulars.

Percentage calculation, added percentage damage (y -> old archer focus) : ((v/100)+1)*((t/100)*(100+y)) = b (new base dmg after calc.)

Flat bonus only, added ranged power (z -> new archer focus) : (((v+z)/100)+1)*t = a (new base dmg after calc)

For a = b, with y = percentage damage bonus, z = flat ranged power bonus, v = base ranged power, t = base damage before calc.

it has to be as follows :

a = b :

- ((v/100)+1)*((t/100)*(100+y)) = (((v+z)/100)+1)*t

- ((v/100)+1)*(t+ty/100)) = (((v+z)/100)+1)*t

- (vt/100) + (vty/10000) + t + (ty/100) = ((v+z+100)/100)*t

- vt + (vty/100) + 100*t + ty = (v + z + 100) *t

- v + (vy/100) + 100 + y = v + z + 100

- (vy/100) + y = z

- y ((v/100) + 1 ) = z ---> flat ranged power needed, for a = b.

Archers focus :

Damage: up to once every half second, you gain +2% competence bonus to missile damage.

This effect can stack up to 15 times, for a total of +30% missle damage.

That means y = 30.

Result :

For example : With v = 100 (base ranged power)

y ((v/100) + 1 ) = 30 ((100/100) + 1 ) = 60 = z

For example : With v = 110 (base ranged power)

y ((v/100) + 1 ) = 30 ((110/100) + 1 ) = 63 = z

For example : With v = 120 (base ranged power)

y ((v/100) + 1 ) = 30 ((120/100) + 1 ) = 66 = z

conclusion : For every +10 ranged power beyond 100 of your base, you would need 60 + every 3 ranged power to your value z.

For a to be b, the above expression needs to be fulfilled.

That means, the new archers focus needs to provide 60 + 3 ranged power for every +10 ranged power beyond 100 ranged power of your base.

I had suggest raising it to 4 ranged power per stack (15 stacks) for a total of 60 ranged power for it to be equal to the former +2% per stack percentage bonus to missle damage for a total of +30% damage bonus to missle damage at 100 ranged power as base.

By the way. This is also true for melee power boosts.