I did it all for the loot...

[Braegan]

Just in vein of some of the threads that are going on now I wanted to put my two cents in.

Ever since back in the day...

I ran tough quests on elite more than once...for Loot!

I ran Epics more than one time...for Loot!

I ran EE's more than one time...for Loot!

I don't care about bragging rights. Save that. Sure some grats when you do any accomplishment is nice. But measure my soloing versus my group play and you would know I don't care about it enough to dictate my gameplay.

I don't care about favor. I care about Coin Lord and House K favor. The rest are fluff. The rest are also easily attainable by going back over level if I somehow cared.

I don't care about challenge exclusively. Sure, it can be fun sometimes. But, without a reason I wouldn't do it more than once.

Show me the money!

I run and have run higher level content for better loot drops.

If that doesn't exist I won't run it.

And it is only fair that the best loot drops on the best setting. It is also good business on Turbines part to make sure those differences are small enough not to make it so a person unable to run the game on the highest setting is completely behind the curve and unable to participate but just large enough to warrant consistent pursuit of until they are gained.

[Vellrad]

You are evil commonust elitist capitalistic swine, and should be ashamed of yourself and should die painfully in a fire.

That's of course sarcasm, but now that its here, crying casuals don't have to post it, or paraphrased version in the same spirit, so they can move on.

[Qaliya]

Just in vein of some of the threads that are going on now I wanted to put my two cents in.


... but you couldn't have posted them in one of those threads for some reason instead of starting yet another one? :P

[Braegan]

... but you couldn't have posted them in one of those threads for some reason instead of starting yet another one? :P

And be lost in the obscurity of page 33?

HA!

Kidding aside you are correct. But in essence that is why most do start a new thread so a point they feel is valid is not lost in the middle of a current on going back and forth for the last ten pages between three posters.

[Braegan]

You are evil commonust elitist capitalistic swine, and should be ashamed of yourself and should die painfully in a fire.

That's of course sarcasm, but now that its here, crying casuals don't have to post it, or paraphrased version in the same spirit, so they can move on.

Despite you saying it(even joking) I am sure someone else will say it and mean it.

[Enoach]

I run quests for the adventure and the stories they create. Reminisce about past players and their ability to make any situation harder, or the narrow wins where if it wasn't for some random AoE damage the TPK would have ended with the boss at 30 HP while the last player slowly tries to beat the odds and stop bleeding out so they can get the party up.

[Connman]

Well Braegan in the spirit of, "takes one to know one,"

all I have to say is Loot*****! :P

[slarden]

lolz

And where did all that mostly obsolete loot get you? To complain on the forums repeatedly that the game is too easy.

See the connection.

[Braegan]

lolz

And where did all that mostly obsolete loot get you? To complain on the forums repeatedly that the game is too easy.

See the connection.

Well it was fun getting it and using it.

The game wasn't too easy when I did that.

The game is easier now.

So I complain now, that the new desired concept is to make the game harder without a reward option.

I see no connection.

[patang01]

Just in vein of some of the threads that are going on now I wanted to put my two cents in.

Ever since back in the day...

I ran tough quests on elite more than once...for Loot!

I ran Epics more than one time...for Loot!

I ran EE's more than one time...for Loot!

I don't care about bragging rights. Save that. Sure some grats when you do any accomplishment is nice. But measure my soloing versus my group play and you would know I don't care about it enough to dictate my gameplay.

I don't care about favor. I care about Coin Lord and House K favor. The rest are fluff. The rest are also easily attainable by going back over level if I somehow cared.

I don't care about challenge exclusively. Sure, it can be fun sometimes. But, without a reason I wouldn't do it more than once.

Show me the money!

I run and have run higher level content for better loot drops.

If that doesn't exist I won't run it.

And it is only fair that the best loot drops on the best setting. It is also good business on Turbines part to make sure those differences are small enough not to make it so a person unable to run the game on the highest setting is completely behind the curve and unable to participate but just large enough to warrant consistent pursuit of until they are gained.

So you want unique powerful loot so you can overcome this new level of challenge and make even that 'easy' and then we can start the cycle of complaining about lack of difficulty and make a Destroyer of 'reaper' level. Sounds like a great plan.

[Braegan]

Well Braegan in the spirit of, "takes one to know one,"

all I have to say is Loot*****! :P

Hehe.

Hey I am just breaking that glass wall.

Folks keep talking about wanting challenge for challenge sake and some mean it, most do want something to show for it and they are met with folks that bicker about how if they really want challenge, that challenge alone is enough. For me it is not. I am just being honest. Challenge for Challenge alone is not compelling enough for me to run repeats.

Pfft. Show me the loots!

:D

[Braegan]

So you want unique powerful loot so you can overcome this new level of challenge and make even that 'easy' and then we can start the cycle of complaining about lack of difficulty and make a Destroyer of 'reaper' level. Sounds like a great plan.

Sounds like you missed the very important part of the decision making of the Devs to make a carrot worth chasing but not OP. Y'know like we used to have.

[Qhualor]

So you want unique powerful loot so you can overcome this new level of challenge and make even that 'easy' and then we can start the cycle of complaining about lack of difficulty and make a Destroyer of 'reaper' level. Sounds like a great plan.

there was once a time when you had best in slot gear content was still challenging, grouping was still preferred and soloing was an accomplishment. if there were to be better gear that could drop from this new and challenging difficulty, it doesn't have to be so OP. when EGH came out, the loot only had minor increases in power. upgrading from a hard version to an elite version didn't suddenly make EGH significantly easier, but players still ran elite and still chased the gear. there was a small segment of the population in the beginning that would run elite, while the rest were content with hard for the time being until they could try challenging themselves for better loot. I know some are suggesting even more powerful than that, but minor increases like EGH loot is what I am suggesting.

[Lemdog]

Yup. Historically i ran quests multiple times on EE (haunted halls) with a group for the loot.

[FranOhmsford]

Sounds like you missed the very important part of the decision making of the Devs to make a carrot worth chasing but not OP. Y'know like we used to have.

So E-SoS, Red Dragon Scale, E-Mari Chain, E-RoSS, E-Midnight's Greetings pre nerf, Greensteel, ToD rings, Bauble, Litany, Torc etc. weren't OP back at cap 20 then?

Rofl!

Oh and don't forget Claw Set or Abishai Set.

There's always been OP loot!

The difference is that back then you HAD to be capped to even have a hope of getting Shards/Seals OR use the item you'd spent all that time grinding them out for and Epic was a single difficulty so there was no running a lesser difficulty for the same {or even lesser chance per run but thanks to time more chance over all!}.


EE doesn't have a loot reason to run it these days so no you didn't do it for the loot! {You could have got that same loot running EH or even EN!} - You ran EE for the XP, the Favour or even the Renown from Sagas!
The thing is that out of those 3 only the Renown gives you a reason to run EE more than once per life {Favour is once and done, XP is 1st time BB bonus and after that the XP/Min ratio is so out of whack that there's no point running EE again that life!}.

Mainly though you ran {run} EE because you CAN!
And yes that does have something to do with "Challenge" but not in the way you're thinking!
It's a case of Can I cope with EE rather than do I want to be Challenged!
Those who can run EE regularly certainly AREN'T Challenged in any way by it otherwise they wouldn't run EE regularly!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I ran them, because they were there.

I do admit that favor was an incentive.
My favor used to be in my forum sig; and is still in my main's bio.
I haven't TRed him because of the favor in fact. (that and I like having one toon at cap.


When I repeat it though, I prefer to do so on another toon.

My main is capped for XP, yet I still will run him for fun.

I do; did; always have; and gladly will repeat the toughest content, just for the fun of it.


I do not enjoy soloing it though.
I enjoy grouping. With anyone. (well.... not elitists...usually)
I'll gladly go into the most difficult content with new players. (how else can I feel like a hero unless there is someone needing saving?.. ;) )

I play flavor toons. (read 'gimped' by most)
Yet, I can do these tough quests.
Not easily; not quickly.
I use tactics. Some people object to some of those tactics, although none are exploits. (I am well aware of the AI and agro, and I definitely use terrain to my advantage.)

I used to have the mindset of normal, hard, then elite.... but bravery bonus has given me incentive to go for elite first, if the group is willing.

DO I want loot? Yes.
Do I want XP? Yes.
In fact, I seldom play my main after he reaches cap. I would rather gain XP on another toon, instead of gaining nothing.

But new content day.... my main will be out there. Hoping to get into new content with no spoilers. A whole group of first timers.
...and if they are willing.....

IoE!

[DANTEIL]

hi o/ dirty casual here. Personally I don't give a hoot about loot, BUT I read in one of the zillions of thread on here what I thought was a good idea, which is that the way to add loot to any new difficulty (which I am in favor of, even though I will never be powerful or skilled enough to experience it) is to create new unique-but-not-unbalanced items like Jack Jibbers' Blade that drop exclusively (at small drop rates, of course) and that could provide concrete loot rewards without throwing the game out of whack. These could act like chaser items for players wanting to do the new super difficulty.

But then, of course, a question becomes: what happens when all the relevant players acquire these unique items? Abandoned difficulty setting? Well, my thought there is to extend the chase by adding a "Reaper Token" system (like Gianthold's relics) that have to be accumulated for barter, maybe in conjunction with the Remnant vendor (e.g., a special item would cost 10000 Remants plus 5000 Reaper tokens). I'd hate having yet another token grind in the game, but things like that are there for a reason.

Personally, my preference would be for cosmetic-only rewards because I think it would be too difficult to avoid adding real items that don't in some way increase the power of the already-powerful characters, thus starting the cycle all over again. But I don't have much of a say in the matter. They've only really mentioned XP rewards, which doesn't really seem necessary at this point in the game.

[Gramh_the_Bard]

there was once a time when you had best in slot gear content was still challenging, grouping was still preferred and soloing was an accomplishment. if there were to be better gear that could drop from this new and challenging difficulty, it doesn't have to be so OP. when EGH came out, the loot only had minor increases in power. upgrading from a hard version to an elite version didn't suddenly make EGH significantly easier, but players still ran elite and still chased the gear. there was a small segment of the population in the beginning that would run elite, while the rest were content with hard for the time being until they could try challenging themselves for better loot. I know some are suggesting even more powerful than that, but minor increases like EGH loot is what I am suggesting.

The reason they reran the quests to get the EE loot was to turn around and toss it up on the Shard AH =/ Unfortunately at this stage of the game, the economy is too borked up to flood more items into it, and even then it just turns into a p2w argument =/

[Gramh_the_Bard]

Mainly though you ran {run} EE because you CAN!
And yes that does have something to do with "Challenge" but not in the way you're thinking!
It's a case of Can I cope with EE rather than do I want to be Challenged!
Those who can run EE regularly certainly AREN'T Challenged in any way by it otherwise they wouldn't run EE regularly!

What exactly then is a challenge to you? If you regularly run EE, but it's not the quickest way for you to run the quest, then you are being challenged at least a bit right? Or is it only a challenge if you stumble to the end chest with 1 hp and half your gear broken?

[Axeyu]

hi o/ dirty casual here. Personally I don't give a hoot about loot, BUT I read in one of the zillions of thread on here what I thought was a good idea, which is that the way to add loot to any new difficulty (which I am in favor of, even though I will never be powerful or skilled enough to experience it) is to create new unique-but-not-unbalanced items like Jack Jibbers' Blade that drop exclusively (at small drop rates, of course) and that could provide concrete loot rewards without throwing the game out of whack. These could act like chaser items for players wanting to do the new super difficulty.

But then, of course, a question becomes: what happens when all the relevant players acquire these unique items? Abandoned difficulty setting? Well, my thought there is to extend the chase by adding a "Reaper Token" system (like Gianthold's relics) that have to be accumulated for barter, maybe in conjunction with the Remnant vendor (e.g., a special item would cost 10000 Remants plus 5000 Reaper tokens). I'd hate having yet another token grind in the game, but things like that are there for a reason.

Personally, my preference would be for cosmetic-only rewards because I think it would be too difficult to avoid adding real items that don't in some way increase the power of the already-powerful characters, thus starting the cycle all over again. But I don't have much of a say in the matter. They've only really mentioned XP rewards, which doesn't really seem necessary at this point in the game.

The notion that we are where we are because of elite rewards or marginal increases to items is just wrong. Things have become easy because of major system changes that could in no way be replicated by slightly better versions of items. PRR/MRR, MP/RP and the enhancement changes made players take half as much damage while doubling their DPS. That is why old content is too easy. We already have tiered loot and it does in no way create this cycle you speak of. It has never happened.

[Gramh_the_Bard]

The notion that we are where we are because of elite rewards or marginal increases to items is just wrong. Things have become easy because of major system changes that could in no way be replicated by slightly better versions of items. PRR/MRR, MP/RP and the enhancement changes made players take half as much damage while doubling their DPS. That is why old content is too easy. We already have tiered loot and it does in no way create this cycle you speak of. It has never happened.

What heroic build are you running that you hit a relevant amount of Melee Power? XD Anyhow, a +1 bonus here, a +1 bonus there, and 28 levels goes by and there will be an obvious difference between a person running Elites, and a person running "Reaper" if the concept of a gear bonus goes through. Also, you don't hear too much about the tiered loot being a problem at current because most of it can be picked up on the AH/Shard AH. Take that away, and I'm sure you'd get an earful from those who don't want to take their flavor toon through EE just to get relevant gear.

[Axeyu]

What heroic build are you running that you hit a relevant amount of Melee Power? XD Anyhow, a +1 bonus here, a +1 bonus there, and 28 levels goes by and there will be an obvious difference between a person running Elites, and a person running "Reaper" if the concept of a gear bonus goes through.

So? It's still not even remotely close to have the same effect as the system changes. So there is no cycle.
There are huge bonuses from TR and ETR, but even that is marginal compared to PRR/MRR, MP/RP and the enhancement changes. PL bonuses have never been required for anything, so neither will reaver bonuses.


Also, you don't hear too much about the tiered loot being a problem at current because most of it can be picked up on the AH/Shard AH. Take that away, and I'm sure you'd get an earful from those who don't want to take their flavor toon through EE just to get relevant gear.

I dont think that is true. But even if it is, so what? Let them keep buying it on the shard AH if it makes them happy. I don't see the problem with that honestly.

[Gramh_the_Bard]

So? It's still not even remotely close to have the same effect as the system changes. So there is no cycle.
There are huge bonuses from TR and ETR, but even that is marginal compared to PRR/MRR, MP/RP and the enhancement changes. PL bonuses have never been required for anything, so neither will reaver bonuses.



I dont think that is true. But even if it is, so what? Let them keep buying it on the shard AH if it makes them happy. I don't see the problem with that honestly.

"Because there's something that is breaking the game worse than what would also break the game, the game isn't broken" is not an argument for having a difficulty tier added and a gear bonus associated with it. The other part, I think you like arguing about stuff more than you like reading things. Or maybe you can't read well, if so I'm sorry, illiteracy is a **** dirty thing.

[Axeyu]

"Because there's something that is breaking the game worse than what would also break the game, the game isn't broken" is not an argument for having a difficulty tier added and a gear bonus associated with it. The other part, I think you like arguing about stuff more than you like reading things. Or maybe you can't read well, if so I'm sorry, illiteracy is a **** dirty thing.

Oh the irony.

[Gramh_the_Bard]

Oh the irony.

Please do share with the class?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

[dunklezhan]

And it is only fair that the best loot drops on the best setting. It is also good business on Turbines part to make sure those differences are small enough not to make it so a person unable to run the game on the highest setting is completely behind the curve and unable to participate but just large enough to warrant consistent pursuit of until they are gained.

I agree with you. However, I don't much care if the best loot drops on harder settings or if it just has a higher drop rate on harder settings. Neither are perfect - I just wish they'd pick one and stick with it!

Whilst I'm here, because I really can't understand all these assumptions about casual players, let me be clear about a couple of things:

I am a casual player. I do not play elite because I'm simply not good enough, so I rarely run it unless in a group. I could be better - but being casual I also really can't be bothered to grind quests for the loot to make me better - loot either drops in the first couple of runs for me or I'm moving on, there's always next life.

What I don't understand is why people think this means that I would therefore be of the view that the game needs to be easier or that I should somehow still be entitled to the best loot. I don't, and I shouldn't, and that's fine.

Me not being bothered to grind is my choice, I do NOT think loot drop rates should be increased, I do NOT think that its unreasonable to put the best loot or highest drop rates in Elite content. I think the people who ARE motivated by reward should get it when they run the most challenging content and I don't see how this makes them "elitists" in anything other than a literal sense - they're running elite all the time.

Of the two methods (best loot on elite/higher drop rates on elite) I favour the one which is actual better loot on higher difficulties because of this. However I recognise that this makes my life harder because no-one else then wants to run anything but elite. So for practical purposes I think the higher drop rate option is probably be better one all things considered. So actually what I think is that drop rates on normal and hard should be much lower than they currently are, and Elite should be left as is, when it comes to loot drops.

Sorry if this is contrary to the group think on casuals.

In any case, mostly I'd just like some consistency.

[Braegan]

there was once a time when you had best in slot gear content was still challenging, grouping was still preferred and soloing was an accomplishment. if there were to be better gear that could drop from this new and challenging difficulty, it doesn't have to be so OP. when EGH came out, the loot only had minor increases in power. upgrading from a hard version to an elite version didn't suddenly make EGH significantly easier, but players still ran elite and still chased the gear. there was a small segment of the population in the beginning that would run elite, while the rest were content with hard for the time being until they could try challenging themselves for better loot. I know some are suggesting even more powerful than that, but minor increases like EGH loot is what I am suggesting.

Thank you.

Minor loot increases like EGH or Shadowfell are exactly what I am talking about as well. A colored slot vs a colorless one or a single +1 DC won't make or break a build. But, it was enough to keep some folks, like myself, running EE's for said items. Also, unique item like True Globe of Blood that didn't increase character power directly but made for ease of slotting stats are another good example of decent incentive without going overboard.

[Braegan]

So E-SoS, Red Dragon Scale, E-Mari Chain, E-RoSS, E-Midnight's Greetings pre nerf, Greensteel, ToD rings, Bauble, Litany, Torc etc. weren't OP back at cap 20 then?

Rofl!

Oh and don't forget Claw Set or Abishai Set.

There's always been OP loot!

The difference is that back then you HAD to be capped to even have a hope of getting Shards/Seals OR use the item you'd spent all that time grinding them out for and Epic was a single difficulty so there was no running a lesser difficulty for the same {or even lesser chance per run but thanks to time more chance over all!}.


EE doesn't have a loot reason to run it these days so no you didn't do it for the loot! {You could have got that same loot running EH or even EN!} - You ran EE for the XP, the Favour or even the Renown from Sagas!
The thing is that out of those 3 only the Renown gives you a reason to run EE more than once per life {Favour is once and done, XP is 1st time BB bonus and after that the XP/Min ratio is so out of whack that there's no point running EE again that life!}.

Mainly though you ran {run} EE because you CAN!
And yes that does have something to do with "Challenge" but not in the way you're thinking!
It's a case of Can I cope with EE rather than do I want to be Challenged!
Those who can run EE regularly certainly AREN'T Challenged in any way by it otherwise they wouldn't run EE regularly!

There was always strong loot. Some of your list was nerfed, had very low drop rates, or really isn't as OP as I think you are trying to claim.

EE still has a loot reason to run it. It comes in the form of Mythic items and/or Mythic Bonuses to items. So you are incorrect in telling me why I play on EE. EE, did used to have a better loot reason to run it with minor increases like EE Shadowsight and unique items like True Globe of Blood and Draconic Soul Gem. So yes I did and continue to run EE past the first time for loot.

I don't pursue Renown. I have all the airship bonuses I consider worth having. Further advancement would result in fluff I either don't care about or I cannot justify spending money on shards to obtain.

Mainly, I ran EE for loot! Back when Epic was changed from Epic to EC-EE my characters got stomped in EE. My casters couldn't land a spell and my melee weren't self sufficient enough to last long. So I didn't play EE. Then around EGH when the tiered loot came out and that shiny augment from EE Tor was there I reworked my characters one at a time to be able to run EE. Loot was a motivating factor for me to get better and build better.

[patang01]

Sounds like you missed the very important part of the decision making of the Devs to make a carrot worth chasing but not OP. Y'know like we used to have.

When did we use to have that? I know there are a lot of warm super feelings about the good old days when 20 was the cap, but the reality is that once people had their 2-3 items of green steel, the few good epic items, the rest of it wasn't all that difficult. The same will happen here too. Add an itemized carrot and hard will got to done and the complaints about making the game even harder will continue again. The issue isn't that the game is easier, the issue is the increase in player power and items.

Sure - we can go back to all immunities and 10x HP and shieldwall, woowoo sticks and CC wizards and healbots. But it wasn't all that fun for a majority of players.

[Gauthaag]

Sure - we can go back to all immunities and 10x HP and shieldwall, woowoo sticks and CC wizards and healbots. But it wasn't all that fun for a majority of players.

still seems like more fun than band of melees boxing boss and just pushing attack button.

[FranOhmsford]

What exactly then is a challenge to you? If you regularly run EE, but it's not the quickest way for you to run the quest, then you are being challenged at least a bit right? Or is it only a challenge if you stumble to the end chest with 1 hp and half your gear broken?

There's a big difference between dying once every 3 quests and stumbling to the end chest of each one with 1hp and half your gear broken!

Challenge means different things to different players too - I'm hardly going to refute that.

But I personally can only survive EEs if I'm in a group with far better players than I - Therefore I'm not actually "Challenged" by EEs!
In a group that can cope with them my participation is minimal and all I have to do is keep up and not die.
In a group that can't cope with them....Well I may not be the first to die every time but it's highly unlikely I'll ever be the last survivor of a party wipe either!

Challenge is not a Can/Can't proposition!
That's the problem when I see people asking for "Challenge" - What are they really asking for? What would they consider "Challenging"? Would they consider being the guy who can only run that quest on that difficulty if 3-5 better players than he are doing all the work "Challenging"? I don't!
And what about those 3-5 better players? Are they going to come to these forums and complain that "Reaper" is too easy? I think we all know the answer to that!

Also - How many players are really out there who find EE too easy? When "Reaper" is introduced how many of those are going to find themselves in the "Can't complete unless a group of better players is with them and can't really contribute to that group" crowd?
And how many "Reaper" capable players are going to be available to get that crowd through "Reapers"?


The good thing about "Reaper" is that it will be known from the start that you have to be one of the best of the best to expect regular completions {hopefully}. BUT if Reaper rewards the players who can complete it regularly with better loot then the wheel turns and we find ourselves in the exact same situation we are now!
Where the gap between those who can complete EE regularly and those who can't is too wide!




Honestly I'd say that If the very best players are guaranteed to die in Every Reaper quest then that is NOT "Challenge" - That is over the top!
But I'd also say that someone who dies once every 3 Reaper {or EE atm} quests is also NOT being "Challenged" by it! He/She simply accepts the death and moves on {so long as they get a res that is}.
"Challenge" itself is hard to quantify because there are so many players at so many levels of play!

I think my point here is that the people who are at the point where they consider EE a "Challenge" are dying in EEs pretty regularly and that to me is beyond "Challenge" and means that those people actually AREN'T running EEs for the so-called "Challenge" but for the REWARDS! {At this point in the game's life those rewards are 1st time BB XP, Favor and Sagas!}.



What actually constitutes "Challenge" in DDO anyway?
Is it:
Time?
How much time should let's say EE-BB Crucible with a group of Max Destinied Lvl 28s take for it to be considered a "Challenge"? 30 mins? 45 mins? 1hr? 2hrs? 3?

Character Deaths
How many Deaths per quest for people in the 80th percentile {90th would make the quests impossible for too many} = "Challenge" do you think?

Fiendish Puzzles
Once the Solver is on the Internet these aren't so fiendish!

Requiring a fully dedicated Tank, Healer AND Trapper
We all know what DDO players think of the Holy Trinity!

Soloing out of the question
Only way to really do this is to have the quests be like Xorian Cypher and Tomb of the Burning Heart and actually require MULTIPLE players but I and many others have posted this request for End-Game content regularly over the past 5 years+ and every time it gets shot down by Players who don't want to ever Group up!

[Faltout]

What actually constitutes "Challenge" in DDO anyway?
Is it:
Time?
Character Deaths
Fiendish Puzzles
Requiring a fully dedicated Tank, Healer AND Trapper
Soloing out of the question
Challenge is measured by the possibility of failure which YOU (the party) control (*).

(*) So, for example, if you enter a quest and the DM rolls a die and if it's 1 or 2 the quest fails then that's not considered a challenge.
That possibility depends entirely on you. Your build, your tactics, your party composition, your intelligence as a player, your resources, your reflexes, your hand-eye coordination. Anything really.

But time is not a challenge unless it means that your resources will run out, or that your reflexes are getting weaker because you're getting tired, or that your build is getting encumbered, or your tactics lose intelligence.

Character Deaths is actually the DM saying: You failed the quest, but I'll give you another chance so you can try again. However, here's a penalty.

Fiendish Puzzles are totally ok as a challenge. Of course a good DM mixes up the challenges. No adventure is only puzzles or only battles. A good adventure has a little bit of everything so it can please every type of player. Not all puzzles can have a solver. A maze can't be solved when you don't have a map. If for example the shadow crypt did not have only 3 instances but instead was randomly generated based on some rules (so there would always be a path to all rooms), then the players would have to play it the intended way and not wiki way.

Requiring a dedicated roles is ok as a challenge. Since DDO allows almost every class and build to play any role, having the fighter assigned as the raid healer is totally ok if the raid requires someone to heal everyone else at some point. The trick is to design situations where a single person does not have the time or resources to play all roles.

Party mechanics like splitting the party to push buttons is not a challenge because it requires a party. It's a challenge because you're splitting the party. So, if both sides require a healer, you have to have 2 persons that can heal in your party. If the monsters are too tough, don't send 2 rogues on their own. That's the kind of challenge this mechanic provides.

[FranOhmsford]

Mainly, I ran EE for loot! Back when Epic was changed from Epic to EC-EE my characters got stomped in EE. My casters couldn't land a spell and my melee weren't self sufficient enough to last long. So I didn't play EE. Then around EGH when the tiered loot came out and that shiny augment from EE Tor was there I reworked my characters one at a time to be able to run EE. Loot was a motivating factor for me to get better and build better.

So exactly what Loot did you run:

EE VoN, Carnival, Sentinels, 3BC, Fens, LoD, King's Forest, Underdark, Schindylrynn, Demonweb, High Road, Druid's Deep, Storm Horns for then?

EE GH? You do realise that all of that Loot was available on the AH/ASAH right? {And I know you're not short of Plat!}.

EE Haunted Halls = You're either in the 1% or don't bother! {Atm that is - Once we get Cap 30 it may become more viable for many more players!}.


Thank you.

Minor loot increases like EGH or Shadowfell are exactly what I am talking about as well. A colored slot vs a colorless one or a single +1 DC won't make or break a build.

Excuse me? What?

+1 DC absolutely WILL make/break Builds!

That's the whole problem with DC Casters!

And if by "Challenge" you mean "I have to pike this quest while others run it for me so I can get my Build to be actually useful at it's main focus" OR "Guess I'll bring another character that can actually contribute while I farm the item the character I want to play needs to be viable" then NO!

[Xenich]

So you want unique powerful loot so you can overcome this new level of challenge and make even that 'easy' and then we can start the cycle of complaining about lack of difficulty and make a Destroyer of 'reaper' level. Sounds like a great plan.

They want loot from a challenge, making them better so they can go off to a harder challenge to get even better loot, etc... rinse and repeat... You know... kind of what cRPG games have progressed through over many years and something that is kind of common in MMOs, specifically this one? Don't let that get in the way though... carry on!

[FranOhmsford]

Challenge is measured by the possibility of failure which YOU (the party) control (*).

(*) So, for example, if you enter a quest and the DM rolls a die and if it's 1 or 2 the quest fails then that's not considered a challenge.
That possibility depends entirely on you. Your build, your tactics, your party composition, your intelligence as a player, your resources, your reflexes, your hand-eye coordination. Anything really.

But time is not a challenge unless it means that your resources will run out, or that your reflexes are getting weaker because you're getting tired, or that your build is getting encumbered, or your tactics lose intelligence.

Character Deaths is actually the DM saying: You failed the quest, but I'll give you another chance so you can try again. However, here's a penalty.

OK First of all you're starting off from a broken premise - That DDO has a DM able to make these calls!

Character Deaths happen in DDO - We all know this and we accept it BUT if even the very best players are dying at least once in every single quest then what hope does anyone else have?


Fiendish Puzzles are totally ok as a challenge. Of course a good DM mixes up the challenges. No adventure is only puzzles or only battles. A good adventure has a little bit of everything so it can please every type of player. Not all puzzles can have a solver. A maze can't be solved when you don't have a map. If for example the shadow crypt did not have only 3 instances but instead was randomly generated based on some rules (so there would always be a path to all rooms), then the players would have to play it the intended way and not wiki way.

Good Lord - Shadow Crypt simply would not get run if that was how it worked!
Now if Shadow Crypt was End-Game content it would be different - Even if it took 7-8hrs to get through the Maze people would run it {IF the rewards were commensurate obviously!}.
But would it be "Challenging"? NO! It wouldnt'! "Time" does not = "Challenge"!


Requiring a dedicated roles is ok as a challenge. Since DDO allows almost every class and build to play any role, having the fighter assigned as the raid healer is totally ok if the raid requires someone to heal everyone else at some point. The trick is to design situations where a single person does not have the time or resources to play all roles.

Ah but that's not requiring a dedicated role now is it!

What I mean by "dedicated" is:
Pure Sacred Defender Paladin/Stalwart Fighter Tanks ONLY! {Only Builds that should be able to reach the required Intim score, PRR/MRR, Hate etc.!}
Pure Rogue Mechanics ONLY! {Must have MAXIMUM POSSIBLE Search and Disable Scores to stand even a 50% chance of finding the box in the first place and then not blowing it up!}
Pure Radiant Servant Clerics ONLY! {And then they must do nothing other than Heal or the Party wipes!}.


Party mechanics like splitting the party to push buttons is not a challenge because it requires a party. It's a challenge because you're splitting the party. So, if both sides require a healer, you have to have 2 persons that can heal in your party. If the monsters are too tough, don't send 2 rogues on their own. That's the kind of challenge this mechanic provides.

Splitting the Party mechanics have their own inherent issues - Creating a situation where every character in the party must be capable of soloing the quest {So your dedicated Tanks, Trappers and Healers are persona non grata!}.
BUT
There's gotta be ways the Devs can do this without causing that specific issue - Wiz King was the epitome of the wrong way BECAUSE it was made that way by the Player Base NOT by the Devs!

[davmuzl]

So you want unique powerful loot so you can overcome this new level of challenge and make even that 'easy' and then we can start the cycle of complaining about lack of difficulty and make a Destroyer of 'reaper' level. Sounds like a great plan.

Well ideally there would be enough developers spending their time on 1.items that make characters just a little bit stronger and 2. creat new challenging content so there is no need for people to complain. Because that's what keeps an MMO healthy.

As for how the new items and quests should look like then... it looks to me like for HH a lot of time was spent to make sure the quest is really cool and challenging and that the loot was interesting and not just OP. And it's noticeable. The loot in the shadowfell expansion including random loot just had better stats than everything before. But that doesn't really make the loot cool imo. In HH the items all had their right to exist (not like most epic sands items that are just garbage), but they also were not just straight up OP like the ToEE set. Sadly the fact that the HH items weren't just OP made them almost useless by this point. Epic orchard just raised the bar too high for them.

And btw stuff like the jibbers blade or other clickies shouldn't be the regular reward for running high difficulty. It's way better to slightly increase the power of the items, because clickies can be kept forever, but there are only so many slots.

[Vellrad]

There was always strong loot. Some of your list was nerfed, had very low drop rates, or really isn't as OP as I think you are trying to claim.

EE still has a loot reason to run it. It comes in the form of Mythic items and/or Mythic Bonuses to items. So you are incorrect in telling me why I play on EE. EE, did used to have a better loot reason to run it with minor increases like EE Shadowsight and unique items like True Globe of Blood and Draconic Soul Gem. So yes I did and continue to run EE past the first time for loot.

I don't pursue Renown. I have all the airship bonuses I consider worth having. Further advancement would result in fluff I either don't care about or I cannot justify spending money on shards to obtain.

Mainly, I ran EE for loot! Back when Epic was changed from Epic to EC-EE my characters got stomped in EE. My casters couldn't land a spell and my melee weren't self sufficient enough to last long. So I didn't play EE. Then around EGH when the tiered loot came out and that shiny augment from EE Tor was there I reworked my characters one at a time to be able to run EE. Loot was a motivating factor for me to get better and build better.

Its good that you improved your character, but its sad many people claim its impossible to make a decent toon and demand nerfs and best possible loot for EN.

[Azarddoze]

Other than fun, my top goals when playing video games are:

1. Getting better at it (requires a challenge or new stuff)
2. Character advancement
3. Loot itself

That said loot is the reason to keep playing, while challenge fades once beaten. Unless it's crazy fun.

[patang01]

still seems like more fun than band of melees boxing boss and just pushing attack button.

You just explained what the old Epic system was like. Except the melee stood there and punched the same regular critter for a minute or more. Hold Monster, punch punch - heal bot - hold monster - punch punch - heal bot. The only difference about the end game was the boss being able to hit harder and had more HP so it took longer and you could hold it.

[patang01]

Well ideally there would be enough developers spending their time on 1.items that make characters just a little bit stronger and 2. creat new challenging content so there is no need for people to complain. Because that's what keeps an MMO healthy.

As for how the new items and quests should look like then... it looks to me like for HH a lot of time was spent to make sure the quest is really cool and challenging and that the loot was interesting and not just OP. And it's noticeable. The loot in the shadowfell expansion including random loot just had better stats than everything before. But that doesn't really make the loot cool imo. In HH the items all had their right to exist (not like most epic sands items that are just garbage), but they also were not just straight up OP like the ToEE set. Sadly the fact that the HH items weren't just OP made them almost useless by this point. Epic orchard just raised the bar too high for them.

And btw stuff like the jibbers blade or other clickies shouldn't be the regular reward for running high difficulty. It's way better to slightly increase the power of the items, because clickies can be kept forever, but there are only so many slots.

What you explain is the fact of what a good quest should be like normal, hard and elite. Which HH offers.

The idea here is to create a difficulty above elite - one that offer a lasting premier challenge. And apparently to add a unique additional power item for that level alone. So not only loot for N through E but then a specific loot - but not too powerful for the challenge. Did I get that right?

How long will it take before someone will start complaining about that being too easy as well, with the need for more challenge - and then a special reward for that?

I really don't want Turbine to waste their time developing something we'll render pointless through our increased power. I get the desire of a carrot for a challenge - I get it. But that is what we had and what we ended up changing through our increased power.

I'm trying to point it out since so many people ask for something that will ultimately bring them back to square one.

[Braegan]

When did we use to have that? I know there are a lot of warm super feelings about the good old days when 20 was the cap, but the reality is that once people had their 2-3 items of green steel, the few good epic items, the rest of it wasn't all that difficult. The same will happen here too. Add an itemized carrot and hard will got to done and the complaints about making the game even harder will continue again. The issue isn't that the game is easier, the issue is the increase in player power and items.

Sure - we can go back to all immunities and 10x HP and shieldwall, woowoo sticks and CC wizards and healbots. But it wasn't all that fun for a majority of players.

Up to EGH we had that.

While Motu loot did invalidate a lot of previous seal/shard/scroll loot. That era was still the mostly max stat +7. That was marginally better than ml 13 heroic gear but was still good enough that folks did pursue it. EGH with the dragon helms and the two named augments were perfect examples of how to tier loot to give the best to only being on the best difficulty but it wasn't so much of a divide that those that could not run EE were miles behind.

It also was unbound gear. So even after you got what you wanted there was incentive to run it for profit. And let's face it. After XP is capped, favor is done, you don't care about sagas, there needs to be some reason to re run it or else it won't be.

[Braegan]

So exactly what Loot did you run:

EE VoN, Carnival, Sentinels, 3BC, Fens, LoD, King's Forest, Underdark, Schindylrynn, Demonweb, High Road, Druid's Deep, Storm Horns for then?

EE GH? You do realise that all of that Loot was available on the AH/ASAH right? {And I know you're not short of Plat!}.

EE Haunted Halls = You're either in the 1% or don't bother! {Atm that is - Once we get Cap 30 it may become more viable for many more players!}.



Excuse me? What?

+1 DC absolutely WILL make/break Builds!

That's the whole problem with DC Casters!

And if by "Challenge" you mean "I have to pike this quest while others run it for me so I can get my Build to be actually useful at it's main focus" OR "Guess I'll bring another character that can actually contribute while I farm the item the character I want to play needs to be viable" then NO!

Yes!

I ran all the good loot runs.

I am aware that some of that loot was avail on the AH/ASAH. But, let me explain to you how I made mine rather then spent it. ;) Besides, it feels waaaay better to loot the item you are after rather than open the wallet and click some confirm boxes. Not knocking it, I have done it in some cases. And having done both, it certainly feels better to loot something you have been hunting for a bit. Did I tell you that just a couple weeks ago I finally looted my first bauble? That felt cool as heck. I never had one up until then and it was so cool to finally loot one. That's an in game feeling I am talking about that needs to be there more. It's really awesome!


And excuse me what, what?!?!

You know my main.

I can tell you from experience 1 DC will not make or break your build. How do you think we got the loot to get that 1 DC in the first place? lol.

When I have griped about difficulty in DCs they have been some of the newer content that was in excess of 5-10 DC higher. So no a single DC will not make or break you.

And by challenge no I didn't pike and yes I ran my FvS. I didn't build a one trick pony tho. If my DCs failed me then I blast. This is still holding true thru EE Amrath where I have been recently pugging that chain on EE for loots. I am consistently being an asset to the party and am not being dragged through it.

[Braegan]

Its good that you improved your character, but its sad many people claim its impossible to make a decent toon and demand nerfs and best possible loot for EN.

Thank you.

That is why I have less patience when others want it all handed on a silver plate.

I did not complain when some things were beyond my reach.

For a time I gave up on them.

When a proper incentive was introduced, I got better.

If I can do it. Anyone can do it.

No one deserves more than what they are willing to put into it.

[FranOhmsford]

And excuse me what, what?!?!

You know my main.

I can tell you from experience 1 DC will not make or break your build. How do you think we got the loot to get that 1 DC in the first place? lol.

When I have griped about difficulty in DCs they have been some of the newer content that was in excess of 5-10 DC higher. So no a single DC will not make or break you.

And by challenge no I didn't pike and yes I ran my FvS. I didn't build a one trick pony tho. If my DCs failed me then I blast. This is still holding true thru EE Amrath where I have been recently pugging that chain on EE for loots. I am consistently being an asset to the party and am not being dragged through it.




When a proper incentive was introduced, I got better.

If I can do it. Anyone can do it.


See...This ^ is where I have a problem.

I do know your main and I know you've Soloed EEs on it!

So no - E-GH didn't force you to get better to get the loot as you put it - You were already there! {Maybe you were a couple of items off being the guy who makes the quest easy for the other 5 but getting those items was no sweat for you because all you needed was a couple of decent players alongside you}.

I recall you being rather happy about having a first EE Solo Completion {can't remember the quest} a few months ago - Tell me please how that in any way had anything to do with getting Loot?


You may have run some EEs for the Loot BUT you specifically state in this thread over and over again "ALL"!
And once you've got that Loot there's again little reason to run EE because while doing so you've also got the Favour, the 1st time BB XP {that life} and for E-GH most probably a couple of Saga rewards too!
You state that you don't care about Saga renown and I know this is true for you so you have even less reason to run EE. Basically it's a 1st time E-BB completion on each future life - And as your main is {well was pre Warlock} I believe...A Completionist even that reason is taken from you!


Now you may still consider EE {Especially Solo} to be a Challenge and that may be enough for you for now BUT when is it gonna stop being a Challenge for you?

[davmuzl]

What you explain is the fact of what a good quest should be like normal, hard and elite. Which HH offers.

The idea here is to create a difficulty above elite - one that offer a lasting premier challenge. And apparently to add a unique additional power item for that level alone. So not only loot for N through E but then a specific loot - but not too powerful for the challenge. Did I get that right?

How long will it take before someone will start complaining about that being too easy as well, with the need for more challenge - and then a special reward for that?

I really don't want Turbine to waste their time developing something we'll render pointless through our increased power. I get the desire of a carrot for a challenge - I get it. But that is what we had and what we ended up changing through our increased power.

I'm trying to point it out since so many people ask for something that will ultimately bring them back to square one.

It's not like they could just add a new difficulty and that would keep the players busy forever. They have to creat new content to keep them busy. What the new difficulty could help with is making that new content last longer, by making it more challenging. That way it would take longer until the majority has the rewards out of the new content.
And it's important to make sure the challenge is what actually keeps the players from getting the new items, instead of a requirement like 30 phlogistons for a t3 item. Overcoming a challenge and being rewarded for it is way more satisfying than having to grind something for weeks or even months. Ideally the challenge would also be made in a way that allows players to beat it by overcoming mechanics in the dungeon instead of just having to deal with randomness (randomness can actually be a good thing if used in the right way) and high stats.

[blackdoguk]

I agree with the OP, more so than I do the self-perpetuating cycle argument. While the latter is true to an extent that's a reality of this game, and the DDO store, as we've seen, is always gona keep ticking over +7,+8 tomes, optimal augments etc etc.

I'd be content however if instead of better we got more. Unlike EE/EH/EN loot if they could just boost the droprates of remnants and mythic items. The new raid has a real incentive to re run on harder difficulties if you have a chance to pull the uber +4mythic helm or whatever. if you marry this with a tangible bump in remnant and tome drops over 20 ENs then I'd be very happy.

I also think that people will find the most optimal way to gearing out optimally. Right now that's facerolling 20mods. If you bumped harder drop rates so they feel like they actually had a chance of looting the item theyre after (maybe even a mythic version) then you wouldn't see lfms up for 10+ runs of normal. This brings the overall quality of play up if players that wouldn't otherwise have to work out new strategies for content.

[icekinslayer]

crying casuals

crying casuals also pay for this game jagoff, don't be so flippant to the paying and free-playing population of this game.

[PsychoBlonde]

Just in vein of some of the threads that are going on now I wanted to put my two cents in.

Ever since back in the day...

I ran tough quests on elite more than once...for Loot!

I ran Epics more than one time...for Loot!

I ran EE's more than one time...for Loot!


The thing is, that "ever since back in the day", when the loot rates were abysmal, I didn't bother actually grinding for that loot. I'd think about doing it "eventually" . . . then go TR. I still don't have an Epic Ring of Spell Storing for this reason. I never got a Torq for this reason. I made do with something else.

And when the drop rates AREN'T abysmal I usually get what I want within the equivalent of one full ransack run (even if it means blubbering at somebody until they pass it)--and then if loot is *all* I can get, I don't run that quest any more. Except, of course, for XP. After I TR.

Everyone I know who runs "for loot" is barely present in the game any more. I'm not sure any amount of goodies could induce them to come back at this point--they're burned out. That and I think some of them got banned for exploiting and duping. :P

I don't think loot is completely insignificant. But it's part of a bigger picture.

[davmuzl]

The thing is, that "ever since back in the day", when the loot rates were abysmal, I didn't bother actually grinding for that loot. I'd think about doing it "eventually" . . . then go TR. I still don't have an Epic Ring of Spell Storing for this reason. I never got a Torq for this reason. I made do with something else.

And when the drop rates AREN'T abysmal I usually get what I want within the equivalent of one full ransack run (even if it means blubbering at somebody until they pass it)--and then if loot is *all* I can get, I don't run that quest any more. Except, of course, for XP. After I TR.

Everyone I know who runs "for loot" is barely present in the game any more. I'm not sure any amount of goodies could induce them to come back at this point--they're burned out. That and I think some of them got banned for exploiting and duping. :P

I don't think loot is completely insignificant. But it's part of a bigger picture.

Droprates were not sands level bad everywhere. And even there it was more a problem of too many items and not low drop rates like in temple of the deathwyrm or MoD.
Look at what the devs did back then to the carnival chain. It wasn't that hard to get an item in there and all of them were pretty good. If all you see is epic ring of spell storing and esos then it's obviously frustrating. And it's not like players here are asking for abysmal drop rates. They ask for an appropriate reward for running on a higher difficulty.
You get more xp for running on elite. The usual way to get raid items has been to run 20 completions on norm for too long.
I actually feel like norm has higher drop rates than hard in a lot of quests, which is kind of sad.

[Braegan]

See...This ^ is where I have a problem.

I do know your main and I know you've Soloed EEs on it!

So no - E-GH didn't force you to get better to get the loot as you put it - You were already there! {Maybe you were a couple of items off being the guy who makes the quest easy for the other 5 but getting those items was no sweat for you because all you needed was a couple of decent players alongside you}.

I recall you being rather happy about having a first EE Solo Completion {can't remember the quest} a few months ago - Tell me please how that in any way had anything to do with getting Loot?


You may have run some EEs for the Loot BUT you specifically state in this thread over and over again "ALL"!
And once you've got that Loot there's again little reason to run EE because while doing so you've also got the Favour, the 1st time BB XP {that life} and for E-GH most probably a couple of Saga rewards too!
You state that you don't care about Saga renown and I know this is true for you so you have even less reason to run EE. Basically it's a 1st time E-BB completion on each future life - And as your main is {well was pre Warlock} I believe...A Completionist even that reason is taken from you!


Now you may still consider EE {Especially Solo} to be a Challenge and that may be enough for you for now BUT when is it gonna stop being a Challenge for you?

Yes, False is EE solo capable now. Of course note that time stamp on those posts, it was fairly recent I was able to do that. Perhaps I could have done so sooner, but I wasn't ready for it (person wise not character wise). Also, note that first EE solo I did was ADQ1. A one shrine quest that doesn't favor a DC FvS. I felt like I beat a lot of odds on that one and yes I was proud of doing it. But guess what...I have not done it since. I did it once, but since I need no loot from it I have not repeated it. And that is my point.

I will remind you that False is a FvS. Not at all considered a FoTM class or uber. I say that to not diminish what I did with the character. Loot did motivate me. You can ask certain members of High Rollers when I was in that guild that heard me curse up a storm and swear and vow never to set foot in EE ever again after some humbling runs. lol. I am sure Zealotry would confirm how put off I was at the time over EE. It wasn't until EGH came out that I refined my build and my playstyle to accommodate. That is where I have less patience, I got better, so can others. You have no idea how terribly bad I was at that time. And it really bruised my ego. Being an old top notch player in old Epics to being the guy that was super squishy dying every 5 secs on EE. It ticked me off to where I did not want to play it.

But, new shiny loot made me want it. I forced myself to get better, rather than whine that loot be handed to me. I did get better. I did pull fancy loot that made me happy. And I continue to push the borders of the envelope. And that is what I want others to do. Stop complaining. If you want more than be more. It really is that simple.

As far as when it will cease to be a challenge. I dunno. I still play fully engaged on EE as a mistake could mean my life or death. I honestly don't see myself getting that much better so I am at the level where I find EEs solo a great challenge, EE pug a fun challenge, and EE with known ubers a fun fast loot run.

[Braegan]

The thing is, that "ever since back in the day", when the loot rates were abysmal, I didn't bother actually grinding for that loot. I'd think about doing it "eventually" . . . then go TR. I still don't have an Epic Ring of Spell Storing for this reason. I never got a Torq for this reason. I made do with something else.

And when the drop rates AREN'T abysmal I usually get what I want within the equivalent of one full ransack run (even if it means blubbering at somebody until they pass it)--and then if loot is *all* I can get, I don't run that quest any more. Except, of course, for XP. After I TR.

Everyone I know who runs "for loot" is barely present in the game any more. I'm not sure any amount of goodies could induce them to come back at this point--they're burned out. That and I think some of them got banned for exploiting and duping. :P

I don't think loot is completely insignificant. But it's part of a bigger picture.

Some loot drops were worse than others for sure.

Sands was a really bad one, hehe.

I have lived quite long without some items I wanted, but I still wanted them. As I pointed out earlier in this thread I recently looted a bauble. I have played for years without one, but I still wanted one. I still ran that quest in the hopes of getting one. And by golly it felt nice looting one recently. That is a feeling that is cool and I don't want diminished.

Looting stuff you have been after is a fun feeling. And after the 1st time Favor is gone, Sage XP recorded, that loot is the only reason I will run something repeatedly.

[Faltout]

OK First of all you're starting off from a broken premise - That DDO has a DM able to make these calls!
As far as "calls" are concerned, DDO has a random number generator that is deciding what loot we get, which monsters will be champions and what buffs they have. It also has scaling that makes the "call" to lessen the difficulty of a dungeon for smaller parties.

Other than that, the static DM that DDO has (devs), is enough to challenge the players (no need to make a sudden decision "Oh, let's put 5 more puzzles in here because the party is steamrolling the dungeon").


Character Deaths happen in DDO - We all know this and we accept it BUT if even the very best players are dying at least once in every single quest then what hope does anyone else have?
How is this relevant?
I did not mention deaths in what challenge is... What I said was that if you have a monster that has a chance to kill you instantly without warning (like extreme champions), that's not a challenge because you can't prevent it.


Good Lord - Shadow Crypt simply would not get run if that was how it worked!
...
But would it be "Challenging"? NO! It wouldnt'! "Time" does not = "Challenge"!
Whether it would be run or not is irrelevant. After all, people don't run Crucible even if it's a challenging quest. Or Abbot.
However if shadow crypt was random, this does not necessarily mean that you would take more time to complete. Some parties would wander around forever not being able to navigate. But some other parties that would employ clever tactics to map the dungeon would succeed within a short amount of time. So, this mechanic does not simply add time (like having an 1 billion HP mob does) because some parties take forever and some take the same amount of time. It adds a challenge for which you need your wit to overcome.



Ah but that's not requiring a dedicated role now is it!

What I mean by "dedicated" is:
Pure Sacred Defender Paladin/Stalwart Fighter Tanks ONLY! {Only Builds that should be able to reach the required Intim score, PRR/MRR, Hate etc.!}
Pure Rogue Mechanics ONLY! {Must have MAXIMUM POSSIBLE Search and Disable Scores to stand even a 50% chance of finding the box in the first place and then not blowing it up!}
Pure Radiant Servant Clerics ONLY! {And then they must do nothing other than Heal or the Party wipes!}.
Ok, we do have different meaning for "dedicated". Dedicated means that you are only playing this role and none else. It means that you cannot enter the fight swords blazing and suddenly pull back and start healing. Either you heal or you fight.

Besides, role =/= build. I can play a role with a build that supports it, not necessarily the best build for the role. And of course requiring certain builds to complete quests is godawful, especially with the amount of builds that exist. However, requiring certain roles to complete quests is very ok and in fact desirable.


Splitting the Party mechanics have their own inherent issues - Creating a situation where every character in the party must be capable of soloing the quest {So your dedicated Tanks, Trappers and Healers are persona non grata!}.
BUT
There's gotta be ways the Devs can do this without causing that specific issue - Wiz King was the epitome of the wrong way BECAUSE it was made that way by the Player Base NOT by the Devs!
I can't understand what you're arguing. those inherent issues are the challenge you have to overcome. Wiz King does not require such a challenge, however players may want to do it this way. Their choice as well as entering a quest naked.

Btw, let's not forget what my 1st post was about: You asked what challenge is and proposed a set of things that could compose it. I responded with what challenge actually is: the chance of failure that you control.
That's why Abbot is challenging: It has a chance of failure.
That's why Crucible is challenging: It has a chance of failure.
That's why extreme champs are not challenging: The chance of failure is not controlled by the player.
And note that failure may mean a couple of things: Failure to complete something within a reasonable time. Failure to stay alive. Failure to withstand the repetition of a complex puzzle. etc.

[LightBear]

At the moment my reward is being able to do a xp-train in under an hour and then all GH-side quest in the next hour.
Steamrolling my way to yet another ETR. :)

[Gauthaag]

As far as "calls" are concerned, DDO has a random number generator that is deciding what loot we get, which monsters will be champions and what buffs they have. It also has scaling that makes the "call" to lessen the difficulty of a dungeon for smaller parties.

Other than that, the static DM that DDO has (devs), is enough to challenge the players (no need to make a sudden decision "Oh, let's put 5 more puzzles in here because the party is steamrolling the dungeon").


How is this relevant?
I did not mention deaths in what challenge is... What I said was that if you have a monster that has a chance to kill you instantly without warning (like extreme champions), that's not a challenge because you can't prevent it.


Whether it would be run or not is irrelevant. After all, people don't run Crucible even if it's a challenging quest. Or Abbot.
However if shadow crypt was random, this does not necessarily mean that you would take more time to complete. Some parties would wander around forever not being able to navigate. But some other parties that would employ clever tactics to map the dungeon would succeed within a short amount of time. So, this mechanic does not simply add time (like having an 1 billion HP mob does) because some parties take forever and some take the same amount of time. It adds a challenge for which you need your wit to overcome.



Ok, we do have different meaning for "dedicated". Dedicated means that you are only playing this role and none else. It means that you cannot enter the fight swords blazing and suddenly pull back and start healing. Either you heal or you fight.

Besides, role =/= build. I can play a role with a build that supports it, not necessarily the best build for the role. And of course requiring certain builds to complete quests is godawful, especially with the amount of builds that exist. However, requiring certain roles to complete quests is very ok and in fact desirable.


I can't understand what you're arguing. those inherent issues are the challenge you have to overcome. Wiz King does not require such a challenge, however players may want to do it this way. Their choice as well as entering a quest naked.

Btw, let's not forget what my 1st post was about: You asked what challenge is and proposed a set of things that could compose it. I responded with what challenge actually is: the chance of failure that you control.
That's why Abbot is challenging: It has a chance of failure.
That's why Crucible is challenging: It has a chance of failure.
That's why extreme champs are not challenging: The chance of failure is not controlled by the player.
And note that failure may mean a couple of things: Failure to complete something within a reasonable time. Failure to stay alive. Failure to withstand the repetition of a complex puzzle. etc.

why is chance to fail abbot different than chance to fail cause of champs? in abbot u can fail because u have no control of action as well, and in case of champs u have option to deal with champ too - it s not autofail. if u cant deal with him, it doesnot mean there is no way.

[Faltout]

in abbot u can fail because u have no control of action as well, and in case of champs u have option to deal with champ too - it s not autofail. if u cant deal with him, it doesnot mean there is no way.
In what situation in abbot would you fail no matter what?
There's telekinesis, but you can avoid that by facing outwards and having feather fall off. There's inferno, but you can cast ice islands. There's symbol of weakness and exhaustion preventing you from going fast enough to reach the island, but you can ask for a restoration. There's sp draining, but you can avoid that by wearing the goggles and killing the wraiths fast. There's encasement, but you have boulders to counter it and inferno is not gonna hit fast enough to catch you in an encasement. There's disjunction, but you can carry alternate weapons and gear. There's the asteroid puzzle, but you are given the means to beat it and invisible asteroids do not exist. There's the ice puzzle, but you are again given the means to beat it. There's the goggles puzzle, but you are given the means to beat it.
Nothing in abbot happens that leads to failure no matter what the party does. It's not like the end fight in DoJ that party dies from bombardment no matter what (yes, I understand that if you kill her fast enough, you don't get it. I'm just mentioning the specific mechanic)

However, if you have a hypothetical champion that appears in the middle of the party and performs an AOE attack that you can't counter, that means "There's nothing you can do. If that monster is a champion, you're doomed". Same goes for the poison traps that deal damage. If the traps in sunken sewer could not be timed, they would be a party wipe mechanic with nothing the party can do.

Now, for most of those mechanics, you can advocate that "You can bring a 3000 HP character and survive anything the game throws at you." But that falls into the category of "Requires specific build to proceed", which is a really bad mechanic. Requiring some standards from a build is fine (like, "be able to survive an abbot attack" or "have spells/weapons that can damage abbot"), but not so specific like ">2000 HP".

[Gauthaag]

In what situation in abbot would you fail no matter what?
There's telekinesis, but you can avoid that by facing outwards and having feather fall off. There's inferno, but you can cast ice islands. There's symbol of weakness and exhaustion preventing you from going fast enough to reach the island, but you can ask for a restoration. There's sp draining, but you can avoid that by wearing the goggles and killing the wraiths fast. There's encasement, but you have boulders to counter it and inferno is not gonna hit fast enough to catch you in an encasement. There's disjunction, but you can carry alternate weapons and gear. There's the asteroid puzzle, but you are given the means to beat it and invisible asteroids do not exist. There's the ice puzzle, but you are again given the means to beat it. There's the goggles puzzle, but you are given the means to beat it.
Nothing in abbot happens that leads to failure no matter what the party does. It's not like the end fight in DoJ that party dies from bombardment no matter what (yes, I understand that if you kill her fast enough, you don't get it. I'm just mentioning the specific mechanic)

However, if you have a hypothetical champion that appears in the middle of the party and performs an AOE attack that you can't counter, that means "There's nothing you can do. If that monster is a champion, you're doomed". Same goes for the poison traps that deal damage. If the traps in sunken sewer could not be timed, they would be a party wipe mechanic with nothing the party can do.

Now, for most of those mechanics, you can advocate that "You can bring a 3000 HP character and survive anything the game throws at you." But that falls into the category of "Requires specific build to proceed", which is a really bad mechanic. Requiring some standards from a build is fine (like, "be able to survive an abbot attack" or "have spells/weapons that can damage abbot"), but not so specific like ">2000 HP".

so u re operating with hypothetical situation? ok, i could say that u can get into party of clueless newbies and no matter what u ll do the raid is doomed to fail:)

but seriously, i m getting your point - i just havent got into situation which cant be solved concerning champs. most mine fails with those were caused by facing unexpected and being caught offguard.

[Braegan]

Just gonna leave this here...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_iQZiVD_zA

:D

[Connman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SuWVIU2Eus

[Faltout]

so u re operating with hypothetical situation? ok, i could say that u can get into party of clueless newbies and no matter what u ll do the raid is doomed to fail:)

but seriously, i m getting your point - i just havent got into situation which cant be solved concerning champs. most mine fails with those were caused by facing unexpected and being caught offguard.
My initial response was general. (what is challenge?) The examples I gave were to aid understanding of my points. I could not simply say "the chance of failure" without mentioning that the player must be able to react because then I'd have responses of:
"ok, so the party goes in a quest and is wiped by design. Is this challenging?" or
"Ok, if time is a challenge you get in a quest with 1 door that opens after 1 hour. How long can you stay logged in? Is that a challenge?" or
"Ok, you keep mentioning that the party needs to control the chance. So, to survive all those traps/monsters in the game you can create a 3000 HP toon and go through them. So, it's really the player's choice. Why are you calling some of those mechanics not challenging if they are leaving the player with a choice?"

While the first 2 responses never came and the 3rd came masked, my initial post tried to respond to all those 3 before they even appeared. That's why it got complicated and big.