How can we overcome resistance to making the game harder?

[redoubt]

At present people want to run elite to get the best xp and fastest favor rewards. This makes elite the default setting and people want to be able to solo it. In turn this makes it harder to create a varied difficulty situation. So is there a way to change this? I'm not certain, but I'll throw out a couple possible ideas.

1. Bring back the under level bonus. This might allow people to run normal or hard, but under level to get xp similar to elite at level.

2. Reset first time completion counter on ER.

3. Make quests that have heroic and epic versions separate in the quest list and have separate renown and first time counters. This would help on the renown side because you could get more renown by running both heroic and epic on hard than you get now with running heroic and epic elite (but you could still get more if you remain elite capable.)

Maybe things like this would allow people to relax a bit and not worry about running only elite, maybe they would not. However, these types of changes could possibly work with an adjustment of the difficulty levels. What I am trying to target is a way for someone who runs elite now to drop down to hard and level in about the same amount of time; this assumes the new "hard" would roughly equivalent to how elite is today. This might open up the ability to reset the difficulties to be based on a 4 person group and make elite a challenge to a 4 person group again.

So what other barriers are there to making both hard and elite more difficult? How do we compensate for them? (Yes, there will always be people who feel they need to solo the hardest difficulty. I'll answer this one with a paraphrase from another thread. We must ignore the fear that some players will rage before we can do anything to improve the situation.)

[Qhualor]

honestly, I think the devs should power creep quests slowly. give mobs a little more melee power, give spell casters a little more spell power, upgrade mob gear piece by piece each update. spell casters get an additional spell or two. melees get speed items for their level. trigger points are random in dungeons for when mobs spawn. fix mobs so they will move if they aren't hitting their target and hitting nothing but wall. give mobs a bigger rubberband. spell casters know when you are immune or highly resistant to specific damage. doing this slowly and most players wont realize at first telling anyone who thinks "something is up" is crazy.

realistically, the trend is throwing a bone once in awhile by adding a quest that is challenging.

[Xenich]

At present people want to run elite to get the best xp and fastest favor rewards. This makes elite the default setting and people want to be able to solo it. In turn this makes it harder to create a varied difficulty situation. So is there a way to change this? I'm not certain, but I'll throw out a couple possible ideas.

1. Bring back the under level bonus. This might allow people to run normal or hard, but under level to get xp similar to elite at level.

2. Reset first time completion counter on ER.

3. Make quests that have heroic and epic versions separate in the quest list and have separate renown and first time counters. This would help on the renown side because you could get more renown by running both heroic and epic on hard than you get now with running heroic and epic elite (but you could still get more if you remain elite capable.)

Maybe things like this would allow people to relax a bit and not worry about running only elite, maybe they would not. However, these types of changes could possibly work with an adjustment of the difficulty levels. What I am trying to target is a way for someone who runs elite now to drop down to hard and level in about the same amount of time; this assumes the new "hard" would roughly equivalent to how elite is today. This might open up the ability to reset the difficulties to be based on a 4 person group and make elite a challenge to a 4 person group again.

So what other barriers are there to making both hard and elite more difficult? How do we compensate for them? (Yes, there will always be people who feel they need to solo the hardest difficulty. I'll answer this one with a paraphrase from another thread. We must ignore the fear that some players will rage before we can do anything to improve the situation.)

1. The game is easy by intended design goals (ie mainstreamed due to Turbine/WB intention).
2. Difficulty without proper risk/reward is meaningless to many people.
3. Giving proper risk/reward will anger the mainstream.
4. The game is easy by intended design goals (ie mainstreamed due to Turbine/WB intention).

There is no solution here. Honestly, I am not trying to be negative, merely pointing out that I have seen this happen with many MMOs.

The game of challenge you once knew is gone. There may be some challenge brought back in some forms (usually in the form of conditional grinds or maybe some end game raid requirement), but having general content difficult is not a design goal. If they make a new level in heroics/epics that require people to have TRd, min/maxed, etc... to succeed, the mainstream will complain and only they are important.

Understand this, accept it and you may still find enjoyment with the game. If it isn't anymore, drop it and move on. Being loyal to a game company these days is foolish.

[Vint]

There is no good answer. Most everyone (zerger or flowersniffer) wants the most tp/favor they can get out of a run.

As long as Elite is the option that gives the best rewards (favor, tp, loot, +7 tomes, etc.), most people will only want to run elite even if they can barely stay alive in hard.

This is why there is no easy answer. If you make elite harder to give challenge to some, the others will take their ball and go home if they are just capable of receiving “2nd class rewards”.

You cannot fix it as long as you have people with entitlement issues.

[slarden]

There is no easy answer. Leveling quests aren't usually difficult in most games, although they can make extreme challenges more rewarding (XP) and more difficult.

For end game content they should keep adding higher level quests while keeping the level cap at 30. This would provide a progression path to the most difficult content. They should also add new challenges and make the max level absurdly high - like level 99 so people can pick their own challenge.

I don't think they should worry about the crowd that wants more challenge but says they will only run it if they get some really special unique loot. Challenge should be its own reward and higher challenges should offer diminishing returns like they do in most games so we don't get into the endless cycle of new gear making everything less challenging which forces continuous difficulty fine-tuning.


As long as Elite is the option that gives the best rewards (favor, tp, loot, +7 tomes, etc.), most people will only want to run elite even if they can barely stay alive in hard.

Very much this.

[Chai]

Fix the bug that caused scaling on elite, which was not originally the intended design, but was left in because it was like that for so long.

A stand needs to be taken at some point. If not, when reaper happens and if it provides more XP or better other type of reward, that will be eroded on the forums like champions were until that becomes the default setting.

[Xenich]

I don't think they should worry about the crowd that wants more challenge but says they will only run it if they get some really special unique loot. Challenge should be its own reward and higher challenges should offer diminishing returns like they do in most games so we don't get into the endless cycle of new gear making everything less challenging which forces continuous difficulty fine-tuning.


It is an issue of risk vs reward. You can create all kinds of difficult conditions to "challenge" yourself in the game. You can run without armor, refuse to use skills/abilities, etc..., but what is the point? Part of the enjoyment of a very difficult challenge is that you are rewarded in a fashion that only those who are able to complete such a challenge can obtain. That is part of a games challenge. A flashy reward with no challenge is pointless. A extreme challenge with no reward is equally pointless. Risk AND reward are an important part of these gaming systems. If they were not, people would only do the easiest difficulty.

[moomooprincess]

I could go for this if Stormreach is left as is, and they make Eveningstar harder.

I think the quests are just fine.

Do you want new players?

If new players come in and the quests are way too hard, what do you think they will do?

They will quit.
They will think the current player base is elitist.
They will think it will take too long to grind for gear.

I think Turbine would better spend their time trying to get more players, than making their current player base happy. Whatever Turbine has been doing in the past, does not seem to be working on keeping new players in the game or attracting new players.

If you do not want new players, then make the quests harder.

[Enoach]

I agree a lot has to do with risk vs reward. The problem is that the risk has been too low for the reward that it has skewed how people evaluate it.

The thing is, making Hard Tough and Elite Tougher will not stop people from being able to complete at that level. It will however, change how they complete the difficulty. Such as require more time or require more party members or even more buffs/resources :). Basically, it could mean the UBER gear won't carry you through and brings back some thought in how to handle a situation.

But I agree a place to start would be from the Top level quests down.

[axel15810]

Said this so many times on the forums but I'll give my stance again.

Expectations for elite difficulty are set and aren't changing - players want it to be soloable and easily completeable. That ship has sailed.

The solution here is creating a new difficulty. There won't be any player expectations at this difficulty. Utilize the monster champion system already in place so it doesn't take a ton of dev hours. Copy and paste elite difficulty...turn up the champion spawn rate and stats until we reach desired difficulty level. Incentivize it with nice but not must have drops like remnants, higher drop rates for named loot, cosmetics, ect. Also drop store items like lesser hearts and tomes at a very low drop rate so there's a grind vrs. real money mechanic with this difficulty.

Should make everyone happy. All named loot will still drop on all levels. I wouldn't be against a small upgrade in loot on a higher difficulty level but would be fine with it not being there also as it may make the new difficulty feel "required" which may lead to it being dumbed down and we'd end up in the same boat all over again.

[Chai]

There is no easy answer. Leveling quests aren't usually difficult in most games, although they can make extreme challenges more rewarding (XP) and more difficult.

For end game content they should keep adding higher level quests while keeping the level cap at 30. This would provide a progression path to the most difficult content. They should also add new challenges and make the max level absurdly high - like level 99 so people can pick their own challenge.

I don't think they should worry about the crowd that wants more challenge but says they will only run it if they get some really special unique loot. Challenge should be its own reward and higher challenges should offer diminishing returns like they do in most games so we don't get into the endless cycle of new gear making everything less challenging which forces continuous difficulty fine-tuning.

Good system design uses the stick and carrot equally. Having one without the other is meaningless. Right now for instance, being able to get the same rewards out of normal and elite takes away any incentive to run elite. Even when the reward from elite increases marginally by adding a few points of melee/ranged power, people will run elite to get the slightly better item.

However, why does anyone who runs normal to get the absolute best loot in the game need that loot in the first place? So when the next content comes out they can run normal again and get the absolute best loot in the game from that as well? This actually incentivizes mediocrity, because normal runs are faster than elite runs, which equals more pull chances per time unit. Same with raids. Why run elite right now when we can timer bypass 20 runs in 1-2 days on normal?

[Xenich]

I could go for this if Stormreach is left as is, and they make Eveningstar harder.

I think the quests are just fine.

Do you want new players?

If new players come in and the quests are way too hard, what do you think they will do?

They will quit.
They will think the current player base is elitist.
They will think it will take too long to grind for gear.

I think Turbine would better spend their time trying to get more players, than making their current player base happy. Whatever Turbine has been doing in the past, does not seem to be working on keeping new players in the game or attracting new players.

If you do not want new players, then make the quests harder.

The players who would quit due to hard quests aren't going to bother with this old game anyway. If the graphics didn't turn them right away, they would get confused at the character development system and never make it past a couple of levels.

The types of players who would stay, are either here already or already know about the game and have no interest. /shrug

[Chai]

I could go for this if Stormreach is left as is, and they make Eveningstar harder.

I think the quests are just fine.

Do you want new players?

If new players come in and the quests are way too hard, what do you think they will do?

They will quit.
They will think the current player base is elitist.
They will think it will take too long to grind for gear.

I think Turbine would better spend their time trying to get more players, than making their current player base happy. Whatever Turbine has been doing in the past, does not seem to be working on keeping new players in the game or attracting new players.

If you do not want new players, then make the quests harder.

Turbine already solves that issue with a 4 difficulty system.

In a 4 difficulty game new players can learn the game on casual/normal and progress to hard when they are ready, then learn on hard and progress to elite when they are ready. The implication that they will quit if they cannot play elite right off the bat isn't well founded, or realistic.

[FestusHood]

Fix the bug that caused scaling on elite, which was not originally the intended design, but was left in because it was like that for so long.

A stand needs to be taken at some point. If not, when reaper happens and if it provides more XP or better other type of reward, that will be eroded on the forums like champions were until that becomes the default setting.

If/When reaper mode makes it's appearance, that would be a good place to take a stand. It's all about expectations. Just come out and say it's supposed to be insanely difficult, and don't relent. Much better than going back and trying to rebalance the existing difficulties to that level. If you think people won't freak out if they try to make elite difficulty as hard as reaper should be, you are kidding yourself.

[blerkington]

Hi,

I don't see it happening for the reasons outlined above, but difficulty would have to be improved from normal upwards for this to be worthwhile. We would need a reset where hard becomes challenging even to experienced and better prepared players and elite is really tough.

There are people who want more challenge in the game, but I'm not sure there are enough of them or that adding a new difficulty level with no extra reward of any sort, would be a worthwhile use of developer time. If there are extra rewards it will just become the new default setting.

I'd certainly try reaper difficulty it were added. But if I could succeed in that content initially, there were be little point to running it again and again. If I couldn't succeed, I'd probably only keep at it until I did, unless it was so difficult I didn't think I could ever make a meaningful contribution in my group.

The other difficulty I have with reaper difficulty is that I think it would be done in a very unimaginative way, by inflating just mob attributes to the point where it will favour or even require certain builds which consume few to no resources to complete, use no save abilities and/or fight at range.

Based on what I've seen about how the developers did EE, I don't have enough faith in them to think it will be any different, especially when done on a shoestring budget. The developers are constrained by a lack of imagination and a lack of resources.

So as interesting as this discussion is, I don't see it leading anywhere productive. Turbine has made its choice about difficulties, and much like allowing the self-healing cat out of the bag, in a declining game there's no getting it back in there now as much as certain more challenge and/or teamwork oriented players would like that.

Thanks.

[Chai]

If/When reaper mode makes it's appearance, that would be a good place to take a stand. It's all about expectations. Just come out and say it's supposed to be insanely difficult, and don't relent. Much better than going back and trying to rebalance the existing difficulties to that level. If you think people won't freak out if they try to make elite difficulty as hard as reaper should be, you are kidding yourself.

That's on those people however, and not on the designers. Making the difficulty setting do what they say they do is WAI. The biggest reason for the freak out is not the increase in difficulty, but the fact that it was left in the state it was for so long, elite-as-default-difficulty became the status quo.

[DDOKillingMachine]

honestly, I think

That's some pretty subtle sarcasm there.

[slarden]

Good system design uses the stick and carrot equally. Having one without the other is meaningless. Right now for instance, being able to get the same rewards out of normal and elite takes away any incentive to run elite. Even when the reward from elite increases marginally by adding a few points of melee/ranged power, people will run elite to get the slightly better item.

However, why does anyone who runs normal to get the absolute best loot in the game need that loot in the first place? So when the next content comes out they can run normal again and get the absolute best loot in the game from that as well? This actually incentivizes mediocrity, because normal runs are faster than elite runs, which equals more pull chances per time unit. Same with raids. Why run elite right now when we can timer bypass 20 runs in 1-2 days on normal?

I agree difficult content should be rewarded, but the reward shouldn't be so good that it trivializes the content. That is why I stated the concept of diminishing returns used by most games also makes sense for this game. In fact I think the mythic bonuses are working perfectly in that regard.

[FestusHood]

That's on those people however, and not on the designers. Making the difficulty setting do what they say they do is WAI. The biggest reason for the freak out is not the increase in difficulty, but the fact that it was left in the state it was for so long, elite-as-default-difficulty became the status quo.

It's a matter of politics. Let's say that they did as some people have suggested, and rename elite to hard. Then elite would be....a completely new diffculty! That didn't exist before. Now they can introduce this new difficulty in a politically stupid way, or they can make it sound like an expansion to the game. One would be viewed as a punishment, and the other would be viewed as a reward. Like almost anything, what it actually is is less important than what it is perceived to be.

How about the argument that a new difficulty would need a new reward. If they simply rebalanced the existing difficulties, how would they change the rewards? If they don't need to make new rewards for neo-elite, then they don't need to make them for reaper either.

As far as i can tell, it's you rebalance guys that are really hung up on the semantic element of this thing. How about if they boot casual at the same time as they introduce reaper? That would fulfill this arbitrary concept that four difficulties is enough.

Elite was supposed to be completable by a well organized group of veteran players, yes? That ain't hard enough. Reaper should be so hard that nobody is supposed to be able to complete it, at least not consistently. If it were that hard, just acknowledgement that it was completed should be enough reward. People say what is the incentive to repeat on this difficulty. Maybe there shouldn't be one. This should not be a difficulty that anybody farms.

[Nonesuch2008]

Said this so many times on the forums but I'll give my stance again.

Expectations for elite difficulty are set and aren't changing - players want it to be soloable and easily completeable. That ship has sailed.

The solution here is creating a new difficulty. There won't be any player expectations at this difficulty. Utilize the monster champion system already in place so it doesn't take a ton of dev hours. Copy and paste elite difficulty...turn up the champion spawn rate and stats until we reach desired difficulty level. Incentivize it with nice but not must have drops like remnants, higher drop rates for named loot, cosmetics, ect. Also drop store items like lesser hearts and tomes at a very low drop rate so there's a grind vrs. real money mechanic with this difficulty.

Should make everyone happy. All named loot will still drop on all levels. I wouldn't be against a small upgrade in loot on a higher difficulty level but would be fine with it not being there also as it may make the new difficulty feel "required" which may lead to it being dumbed down and we'd end up in the same boat all over again.

I think if the quests had a sign on the door stating 'Leave your expectations HERE' this would work for the majority. This is a great low-budget set of ideas that could be implemented to add some challenge for those who seek it. The only area it might fall short in is the creation of 'bigger bags of hit points' to contend with rather than unique challenges or tests of skill. But it's still a very decent starting point.

[Vellrad]

It's a matter of politics. Let's say that they did as some people have suggested, and rename elite to hard. Then elite would be....a completely new diffculty! That didn't exist before. Now they can introduce this new difficulty in a politically stupid way, or they can make it sound like an expansion to the game. One would be viewed as a punishment, and the other would be viewed as a reward. Like almost anything, what it actually is is less important than what it is perceived to be.

How about the argument that a new difficulty would need a new reward. If they simply rebalanced the existing difficulties, how would they change the rewards? If they don't need to make new rewards for neo-elite, then they don't need to make them for reaper either.

As far as i can tell, it's you rebalance guys that are really hung up on the semantic element of this thing. How about if they boot casual at the same time as they introduce reaper? That would fulfill this arbitrary concept that four difficulties is enough.

Elite was supposed to be completable by a well organized group of veteran players, yes? That ain't hard enough. Reaper should be so hard that nobody is supposed to be able to complete it, at least not consistently. If it were that hard, just acknowledgement that it was completed should be enough reward. People say what is the incentive to repeat on this difficulty. Maybe there shouldn't be one. This should not be a difficulty that anybody farms.

So, devs should waste lots of time for new diffiuclty that is done once, and then never repeated?
Seems legit.

[FestusHood]

I think if the quests had a sign on the door stating 'Leave your expectations HERE' this would work for the majority. This is a great low-budget set of ideas that could be implemented to add some challenge for those who seek it. The only area it might fall short in is the creation of 'bigger bags of hit points' to contend with rather than unique challenges or tests of skill. But it's still a very decent starting point.

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here"

Want to challenge melees? How about some REALLY nasty guards on monsters. Imagine if there was a 5% chance that any given mob had Miior's guard effect? Everybody shifts to ranged builds? We have the deflect arrows feat. Introduce the new mob only effect reflect arrows. A 33% chance that any given projectile will hit the firer instead of the target.

Nothing would promote diversity in a group like a situation where certain mobs in a given dungeon will destroy a particular character archetype no matter WHAT they do.

[FestusHood]

So, devs should waste lots of time for new diffiuclty that is done once, and then never repeated?
Seems legit.

Yes. It's there specifically for people who think that the regular game is too easy. Any difficulty that people can play regularly isn't hard enough.

[axel15810]

I think if the quests had a sign on the door stating 'Leave your expectations HERE' this would work for the majority. This is a great low-budget set of ideas that could be implemented to add some challenge for those who seek it. The only area it might fall short in is the creation of 'bigger bags of hit points' to contend with rather than unique challenges or tests of skill. But it's still a very decent starting point.

That should be an easy enough problem to avoid. Devs have the ability to increase champion DPS without increasing HP.

[legendkilleroll]

Nothing would promote diversity in a group like a situation where certain mobs in a given dungeon will destroy a particular character archetype no matter WHAT they do.

Yup

Soloer;s would complain though, i myself solo quite a bit but i wouldnt mind something like this, could have a enemy who when attacked by melee put that binding chain tpye thing on you or something like to hurt enemy you need to be inside his aura, anything from outside has no effect

[Tebaco]

I could go for this if Stormreach is left as is, and they make Eveningstar harder.

I think the quests are just fine.

Do you want new players?

If new players come in and the quests are way too hard, what do you think they will do?

They will quit.
They will think the current player base is elitist.
They will think it will take too long to grind for gear.

I think Turbine would better spend their time trying to get more players, than making their current player base happy. Whatever Turbine has been doing in the past, does not seem to be working on keeping new players in the game or attracting new players.

If you do not want new players, then make the quests harder.


Well there is description on difficulity. If you new and you try elite and fail, than its something new you have learned and next time you try hard or normal or seek for info what to do for be sucesfull on elite. If not than you are some kind weird... You can compare this in any real life situation. But in real life you dont risk. In real life you choose at 1st try normal level. You can affort risk online. So when you "get some xp" that you are weak and unexperinted, you choose easier difficulity. If ppl dont behave like this than are several difficulities pointless in many games.. But its not true. because there is general rule. You experiented, smart.. than you can handle harder diff and you get bored and tired if play on normal. If you noobie than normal should just fit for you to be game entertaining. Thats the key and nothing else. So there can be much more diff so min maxers could have fun from 1-30 lvl in every single quest.. Same fun or better fun like noobies have. Its the true purpose of difficulities... Its not normal if only wipe comes with lag wipe.. Fail is natural spect of living, experience. If no fail, ppl no grow. Actualy if is game stupidely easy ppl would get ******** just with experience with playing it (with resonable amount of time). So Turbine i am begging you, dont let players became retards, give us challange. No more brainless grinding..

[slarden]

I think Turbine would better spend their time trying to get more players, than making their current player base happy. Whatever Turbine has been doing in the past, does not seem to be working on keeping new players in the game or attracting new players.

I am not sure why the game doesn't retain more new players, but I am fairly certain the best strategy for Turbine is to keep the players they have and try to attract back former players that once enjoyed the game and got busy with real life. There best chance will be when epic shroud comes back. It's something familiar and yet something new. Hopefully the crafting system will be a success.

[Braegan]

You cannot fix it as long as you have people with entitlement issues.

This.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

There's no suitable solution for everyone in this. I wouldn't even say there's a "best" route to satisfying difficulty.

What's "harder"? Mobs with ludicrous saves and HP? We got that with EE and chains like IQ. For me, that's not any harder- just more dull.
I like smarter design. Trickier quests with multiple paths and puzzles and situations that play to different strengths, but once you know a quest like that, it's less a trial and more an excercise in preparation.
Is it a gauntlet with constant spawns? Address it with speed and knowledge.
Mario platforming with a need for precision? You're still fighting lag, and that's less "difficult" than "at the mercy of your ISP".
Random tough spawns? Champs. I like them, but they're not much more than a priority over casters.
Push too much random, "surprise! Violent unavoidable death!" and it's not about player skill anymore. That's luck, not difficulty.
Content that requires a group, some mix of classes? That might be the best, but at this juncture it's pretty impractical and the backlash from both soloers and the LFMs-are-dead crowd would shoot that down so fast.

Not to mention that this community who can argue for 10 pages about semantics would make any sort of consensus near-impossible.

[J-mann]

Yes. It's there specifically for people who think that the regular game is too easy. Any difficulty that people can play regularly isn't hard enough.

I personally think this is right. It should be REALLY hard, not something that even 6 cetus' could complete with any regularity. I also think its rewards should be completion, not more xp, not more items, it should be a cool looking skin/title/badge that says HEY I BEAT THAT. For those that say that we need power creep to go with our new challenge, I contend you do not want a new challenge at all, but new power creep to lord over your "lessers".

In any event, I think that this thread is asking the COMPLETE wrong question first. The first question that should be asked is what is challenge? How can turbine go about providing it? is it to just increase mob damage and hp? I contend no, all that would do is take us back to the days of only ranged chars could complete "hard" content with any degree of regularity. I beleive that this new challenge should be in new mechanics, moves for mobs, things that take advantage of ddos live action system that makes players MOVE their character around. But im sure that the devs will just increase mob damage hp and saves.... joy of joys.

[Gauthaag]

I personally think this is right. It should be REALLY hard, not something that even 6 cetus' could complete with any regularity. I also think its rewards should be completion, not more xp, not more items, it should be a cool looking skin/title/badge that says HEY I BEAT THAT. For those that say that we need power creep to go with our new challenge, I contend you do not want a new challenge at all, but new power creep to lord over your "lessers".

In any event, I think that this thread is asking the COMPLETE wrong question first. The first question that should be asked is what is challenge? How can turbine go about providing it? is it to just increase mob damage and hp? I contend no, all that would do is take us back to the days of only ranged chars could complete "hard" content with any degree of regularity. I beleive that this new challenge should be in new mechanics, moves for mobs, things that take advantage of ddos live action system that makes players MOVE their character around. But im sure that the devs will just increase mob damage hp and saves.... joy of joys.

I agree with the reward part - why cant we get some showoff things for beating hard content that don't increase powercreep. I believe people would be happy with some cool cosmetics or items that do some fancy effects just in public area. It works in other games, why not here?

[blerkington]

I also think its rewards should be completion, not more xp, not more items, it should be a cool looking skin/title/badge that says HEY I BEAT THAT. For those that say that we need power creep to go with our new challenge, I contend you do not want a new challenge at all, but new power creep to lord over your "lessers".

Hi,

I think this is an interesting suggestion, but it doesn't provide any particular incentive to run the content beyond completing it once to get the badge.

Some other people have suggested rewards which represent very small increases in power over items otherwise available. So you can easily do without them, but still attractive to the people who have to have the very best gear. Finding that balance will be the key to coming up with appropriate rewards for reaper difficulty, in my opinion anyway.

Another alternative might be to provide something like a way to transmute gear from one slot into an item which goes into another, or useful utility items. Maybe doing enough quests on reaper difficulty could allow you to purchase the cosmetic, item transmutation, or unique, useful clicky.

Thanks.

[PermaBanned]

I think this is an interesting suggestion, but it doesn't provide any particular incentive to run the content beyond completing it once to get the badge.Speaking only for myself, the only incentive I need is "yawn, ROFLstomp, yawn" when running one of my two mains @level on the current hardest difficulty. And no, that's not just referencing Heroics either. Available player power has far outstripped available content power, and I'd like a challenge suitable for the amount of player power they've made available.


Some other people have suggested rewards which represent very small increases in power over items otherwise available. So you can easily do without them, but still attractive to the people who have to have the very best gear. Finding that balance will be the key to coming up with appropriate rewards for reaper difficulty, in my opinion anyway.I remember them trying the "slight increases in power of loot for higher difficulties" thing back in Epic Gianthold (among other places), and I don't recall many folks looking at the Elite stuff and saying "Nah, the Norm or Hard is good enough for me." I do however recall folks telling other people that Norm or Hard stuff should be good enough for them, and if they can't handle Elite they can always buy it off the ASAH - I'd rather not see a return to all that hoopla.

I think it's plain silly for the folks who claim they want a challenge, to also say they "need to be incentivized or properly rewarded" for undertaking the challenge they want. No point in explaining to me the whole risk/reward thing - I've seen it recycled endlessly, and I call it hog-wash. If you want a challenge, you want a challenge. If you need a worthy reward to undertake a challenge, you don't want the challenge you want the reward. I want a challenge, and I'm not asking for an additional reward - apparently I'm thinking it wrong...

[kmoustakas]

I would not make old ftp quests harder. We recently had some people join the game and our guild was flooded with messages how stupid hard the game is on elite, horror stories about champion archers doing 300 dmg in level 5 quests and don't let me get started on champion tharak hounds or beholders.

The gap between old players with multiple trs, knowledge of the game and twink gear and a new player is huge.

Just introduce a mode that all mobs, every single one of them is a champion for those who want more difficulty. The reward would be obviously more remnants/champion chests.

[Theolin]

As long as it is NOT done with one shot mechanics I am happy, those I will fight against every time as it is just luck in the roll of the dice & they always hate me.

[knockcocker]

speaking only for myself, the only incentive i need is "yawn, roflstomp, yawn" when running one of my two mains @level on the current hardest difficulty. And no, that's not just referencing heroics either. Available player power has far outstripped available content power, and i'd like a challenge suitable for the amount of player power they've made available.

I remember them trying the "slight increases in power of loot for higher difficulties" thing back in epic gianthold (among other places), and i don't recall many folks looking at the elite stuff and saying "nah, the norm or hard is good enough for me." i do however recall folks telling other people that norm or hard stuff should be good enough for them, and if they can't handle elite they can always buy it off the asah - i'd rather not see a return to all that hoopla.

I think it's plain silly for the folks who claim they want a challenge, to also say they "need to be incentivized or properly rewarded" for undertaking the challenge they want. No point in explaining to me the whole risk/reward thing - i've seen it recycled endlessly, and i call it hog-wash. If you want a challenge, you want a challenge. If you need a worthy reward to undertake a challenge, you don't want the challenge you want the reward. I want a challenge, and i'm not asking for an additional reward - apparently i'm thinking it wrong...

qft.

[knockcocker]

There is no good answer. Most everyone (zerger or flowersniffer) wants the most tp/favor they can get out of a run.

As long as Elite is the option that gives the best rewards (favor, tp, loot, +7 tomes, etc.), most people will only want to run elite even if they can barely stay alive in hard.

This is why there is no easy answer. If you make elite harder to give challenge to some, the others will take their ball and go home if they are just capable of receiving “2nd class rewards”.

You cannot fix it as long as you have people with entitlement issues.


This.

This cuts BOTH ways

[Wizza]

I think it's plain silly for the folks who claim they want a challenge, to also say they "need to be incentivized or properly rewarded" for undertaking the challenge they want. No point in explaining to me the whole risk/reward thing - I've seen it recycled endlessly, and I call it hog-wash. If you want a challenge, you want a challenge. If you need a worthy reward to undertake a challenge, you don't want the challenge you want the reward. I want a challenge, and I'm not asking for an additional reward - apparently I'm thinking it wrong...

Some people want to be rewarded for defeating challenging content. It's not really hard to understand, it's a logic that has been in the gaming industry since forever. I want a challenge AND I want to be rewarded for it. There isn't one without the other.

Please forgive those who want both, they are surely wrong :rolleyes:

[Qhualor]

I remember them trying the "slight increases in power of loot for higher difficulties" thing back in Epic Gianthold (among other places), and I don't recall many folks looking at the Elite stuff and saying "Nah, the Norm or Hard is good enough for me." I do however recall folks telling other people that Norm or Hard stuff should be good enough for them, and if they can't handle Elite they can always buy it off the ASAH - I'd rather not see a return to all that hoopla.

I think it's plain silly for the folks who claim they want a challenge, to also say they "need to be incentivized or properly rewarded" for undertaking the challenge they want. No point in explaining to me the whole risk/reward thing - I've seen it recycled endlessly, and I call it hog-wash. If you want a challenge, you want a challenge. If you need a worthy reward to undertake a challenge, you don't want the challenge you want the reward. I want a challenge, and I'm not asking for an additional reward - apparently I'm thinking it wrong...

what I recall about epic GH was that it was before Armor Up. melees were having a very hard time staying alive in front line combat, ranged combat was dominating giving rise to Monkchers and Shiradis and a lot of players seemed content with hard versions of gear striving for the elite. it didn't help that at the same time we had the P2WAH with insane buyout prices for elite versions of gear.

for me, I want both challenge and a reward fitting for the challenge. right now I think mostly they don't match with reward being too good for the challenge. there really doesn't need to be more incentive to run higher difficulties accept making it so that you cant get the same loot on elite as normal. desired loot will always trump everything else. if you cant get it on normal, only on elite, than players will run elite. the difficulty of the challenge is subjective but I do believe its plainly obvious the way things are right now how players are approaching quests. the biggest problem we have right now is there are a lot of players who don't want to risk fail, risk taking too long to complete quests and might have to group up to acquire what they want shouting down those that really do just simply want more challenge. I also do believe there aren't as many players ANYMORE that want true challenge making it difficult to try to have a reasonable discussion on how to improve it when the rest of the community are rallying for entitlement.

[blerkington]

Speaking only for myself, the only incentive I need is "yawn, ROFLstomp, yawn" when running one of my two mains @level on the current hardest difficulty. And no, that's not just referencing Heroics either. Available player power has far outstripped available content power, and I'd like a challenge suitable for the amount of player power they've made available.

I remember them trying the "slight increases in power of loot for higher difficulties" thing back in Epic Gianthold (among other places), and I don't recall many folks looking at the Elite stuff and saying "Nah, the Norm or Hard is good enough for me." I do however recall folks telling other people that Norm or Hard stuff should be good enough for them, and if they can't handle Elite they can always buy it off the ASAH - I'd rather not see a return to all that hoopla.

I think it's plain silly for the folks who claim they want a challenge, to also say they "need to be incentivized or properly rewarded" for undertaking the challenge they want. No point in explaining to me the whole risk/reward thing - I've seen it recycled endlessly, and I call it hog-wash. If you want a challenge, you want a challenge. If you need a worthy reward to undertake a challenge, you don't want the challenge you want the reward. I want a challenge, and I'm not asking for an additional reward - apparently I'm thinking it wrong...

Hi,

These are all good points, thanks.

The problem with reaper difficulty is that it could easily just be a 'once and done' difficulty even for most of the small fraction of the community who might be able to handle it.

It just doesn't seem like a good use of developer time to create an entirely new difficulty for what may well be a tiny fraction of the population who are actually prepared to play it regularly. Only someone who was desperate to pad their CV could claim something so useless to most of the community was a good way to allocate developer resources.

Rather than a new difficulty I would prefer to see a reset, where hard became hard and elite was for elite players only. But having seen what happened in NWO recently, where they made the game much harder in Module 6 and then hemorrhaged players until they were forced to roll it back recently to accommodate their casuals, it's easy to imagine the same thing happening in DDO. Our game really can't afford a large drop in players if overnight many of us suddenly couldn't do elite difficulty in the way we've become accustomed, and some of the people who would leave over that would not come back.

It was a mistake to let the game become easier and easier until everyone expected to be able to to elite. And though I've believe I've seen a developer say that this was done because it was what players wanted, I don't accept that explanation. I think this is an excuse for some changes which might have been okay in principle but were implemented very badly. But now that we are here, it will be very hard to go back again.

Thanks.

[lyrecono]

I would not make old ftp quests harder. We recently had some people join the game and our guild was flooded with messages how stupid hard the game is on elite, horror stories about champion archers doing 300 dmg in level 5 quests and don't let me get started on champion tharak hounds or beholders.

The gap between old players with multiple trs, knowledge of the game and twink gear and a new player is huge.

Just introduce a mode that all mobs, every single one of them is a champion for those who want more difficulty. The reward would be obviously more remnants/champion chests.

this!
this is how many new players feel like, and although they had no right to be in on elite, i do understand that no heroic normal lfm's are posted and the f2p content is limited.

The dificulties in ddo are fine, all it needs is a check box for champions(for those who don't care)

if you're facerolling through content, congratulations on your uber geared, triple heroic/epic/iconic completionist, that must have cost a pretty penny, now make a new toon and solo all quests&raids on elite to 28 and then come back wining on the forum that the game is too easy

[slarden]

I would not make old ftp quests harder. We recently had some people join the game and our guild was flooded with messages how stupid hard the game is on elite, horror stories about champion archers doing 300 dmg in level 5 quests and don't let me get started on champion tharak hounds or beholders.

The gap between old players with multiple trs, knowledge of the game and twink gear and a new player is huge.

Just introduce a mode that all mobs, every single one of them is a champion for those who want more difficulty. The reward would be obviously more remnants/champion chests.

This is the reality. The gap between players is huge.

[Xenich]

If it were that hard, just acknowledgement that it was completed should be enough reward. People say what is the incentive to repeat on this difficulty. Maybe there shouldn't be one. This should not be a difficulty that anybody farms.

Accept that acknowledgement aka "bragging rights" is a meaningless reward.

[Stonemerge]

I would not make old ftp quests harder. We recently had some people join the game and our guild was flooded with messages how stupid hard the game is on elite, horror stories about champion archers doing 300 dmg in level 5 quests and don't let me get started on champion tharak hounds or beholders.

The gap between old players with multiple trs, knowledge of the game and twink gear and a new player is huge.

Just introduce a mode that all mobs, every single one of them is a champion for those who want more difficulty. The reward would be obviously more remnants/champion chests.

+5

excellent post

[Stonemerge]

this!
this is how many new players feel like, and although they had no right to be in on elite, i do understand that no heroic normal lfm's are posted and the f2p content is limited.

The dificulties in ddo are fine, all it needs is a check box for champions(for those who don't care)

if you're facerolling through content, congratulations on your uber geared, triple heroic/epic/iconic completionist, that must have cost a pretty penny, now make a new toon and solo all quests&raids on elite to 28 and then come back wining on the forum that the game is too easy

agreed

[FestusHood]

I remember them trying the "slight increases in power of loot for higher difficulties" thing back in Epic Gianthold (among other places), and I don't recall many folks looking at the Elite stuff and saying "Nah, the Norm or Hard is good enough for me." I do however recall folks telling other people that Norm or Hard stuff should be good enough for them, and if they can't handle Elite they can always buy it off the ASAH - I'd rather not see a return to all that hoopla.



In my case, most of the time, the epic hard Gianthold stuff was good enough, it was the normal that wasn't. Here is why.

Epic Gianthold came out right around the same time as the new augment system. At the time it was really hard to find places to slot the neat blue augments because the MOTU gear doesn't have any slots.

The epic hard gianthold gear has green slots, but the normal only has yellow. The elite stuff also has a green slot, with the secondary being yellow instead of clear. I use half of my yellow slots for clear augments anyway, so i don't really care about that secondary difference. It was the ability to use a blue augment i was after. The other differences on the gear ranged from none to nice but not necessary. Look at the Tor helms. The only difference between the hard and elite versions was that yellow slot instead of the clear one.

[FestusHood]

Hi,

It just doesn't seem like a good use of developer time to create an entirely new difficulty for what may well be a tiny fraction of the population who are actually prepared to play it regularly. Only someone who was desperate to pad their CV could claim something so useless to most of the community was a good way to allocate developer resources.

Rather than a new difficulty I would prefer to see a reset, where hard became hard and elite was for elite players only. But having seen what happened in NWO recently, where they made the game much harder in Module 6 and then hemorrhaged players until they were forced to roll it back recently to accommodate their casuals, it's easy to imagine the same thing happening in DDO. Our game really can't afford a large drop in players if overnight many of us suddenly couldn't do elite difficulty in the way we've become accustomed, and some of the people who would leave over that would not come back.


I'm no programmer, but i'm not able to see the difference between making an entirely new difficulty, and what you are suggesting which is to make hard like elite is now and elite like...what? What would be the difference between whatever they would have to do to make elite harder and simply making a new difficulty? Anything beyond adjustments to the quest panel?

The example you are giving of NWO having to roll back on difficulty changes seems far more likely to happen here if they fiddle with existing difficulties instead of introducing a new one. I've never played NWO do they have difficulty settings? If not, i can see the problem with rolling out new content that was too hard for most of the players to complete. That content is completely inaccessible to them.

[FestusHood]

this!
this is how many new players feel like, and although they had no right to be in on elite, i do understand that no heroic normal lfm's are posted and the f2p content is limited.

The dificulties in ddo are fine, all it needs is a check box for champions(for those who don't care)

if you're facerolling through content, congratulations on your uber geared, triple heroic/epic/iconic completionist, that must have cost a pretty penny, now make a new toon and solo all quests&raids on elite to 28 and then come back wining on the forum that the game is too easy

I'm on Argo which is the new default server. The other day i saw an lfm for a harbor quest done on normal with three people in it!

[FestusHood]

Accept that acknowledgement aka "bragging rights" is a meaningless reward.

Which is weird because there are thousands and thousands of people who play in amateur bowling, darts, pool, basketball, etc. leagues which have no rewards whatsoever beyond bragging rights. In many cases the players have to pay just to play in them, and get nothing back.

[slarden]

Accept that acknowledgement aka "bragging rights" is a meaningless reward.

To you maybe, but not to everyone. I was really happy to be part of the group that completed the first Sarlona Fire on Thunderpeaks and Deathwyrm raids on EE (to our knowledge).

[Silverleafeon]

this!
this is how many new players feel like, and although they had no right to be in on elite, i do understand that no heroic normal lfm's are posted and the f2p content is limited.

The dificulties in ddo are fine, all it needs is a check box for champions(for those who don't care)

if you're facerolling through content, congratulations on your uber geared, triple heroic/epic/iconic completionist, that must have cost a pretty penny, now make a new toon and solo all quests&raids on elite to 28 and then come back wining on the forum that the game is too easy

+1 well said.

Reaper is the way to go.
And Reaper by its very name warns newcomers -- death awaits you, turn back or die...

[Silverleafeon]

I would not make old ftp quests harder. We recently had some people join the game and our guild was flooded with messages how stupid hard the game is on elite, horror stories about champion archers doing 300 dmg in level 5 quests and don't let me get started on champion tharak hounds or beholders.

The gap between old players with multiple trs, knowledge of the game and twink gear and a new player is huge.

Just introduce a mode that all mobs, every single one of them is a champion for those who want more difficulty. The reward would be obviously more remnants/champion chests.

+1

Leave well enough alone.
Reaper is the right direction.

[PermaBanned]

I would not make old ftp quests harder. We recently had some people join the game and our guild was flooded with messages how stupid hard the game is on elite, horror stories about champion archers doing 300 dmg in level 5 quests and don't let me get started on champion tharak hounds or beholders.

The gap between old players with multiple trs, knowledge of the game and twink gear and a new player is huge.

Just introduce a mode that all mobs, every single one of them is a champion for those who want more difficulty. The reward would be obviously more remnants/champion chests.I would like to say that I don't want "the game" to be made harder - but that wouldn't actually be true. I think the game was - and would be again - better when Normal was used to learn and prepare for Hard, and in turn Hard was used to hone your character and play-ability to prepare for Elite; and that it was simply a poor choice on Turbine's part to allow (or intentionally cause) the erosion of that progression. However, I can also see that because that system of progression has largely been done away with, trying to force a return to it would almost certainly do more harm than good - so I choose to focus on my second preference: appropriately implementing this new "Reaper" difficulty.

Now, I'm not {quite} arrogant enough to say that how I want it is better than how anyone/everyone else wants it. But if don't put it out there, what chance does it have? So just as everyone else shares their thoughts on "how it should be," so do I.

One of the biggest problems for me with the idea of "Reaper" giving any sort of extra/better (noncosmetic) reward above Elite, is that it'll just be restarting the cycle of "It's too hard" complaints followed by nerfs to the new difficulty. I don't know if it's the cajones or management's permission that would be lacking, but I just don't see the Devs responding to the "It's too hard" complaints with "This is WAI" - although I'd dearly love to be proven wrong on that!

So no, don't make any of the existing stuff harder thus taking things away from people. Just make this new Difficulty Selection appropriate (meaning extremely difficult) @level for the most powerful & highly developed characters the game allows us to build.

For my ideal implementation, no over level characters should be able to enter a quest on Reaper difficulty - only those at or below level. If that's not doable, and if there does end up being Reaper exclusive loot (even if just cosmetic stuff) then do not allow it to drop if there are over level characters in the dungeon.



this!
this is how many new players feel like, and although they had no right to be in on elite, i do understand that no heroic normal lfm's are posted and the f2p content is limited.

The dificulties in ddo are fine, all it needs is a check box for champions(for those who don't care)

if you're facerolling through content, congratulations on your uber geared, triple heroic/epic/iconic completionist, that must have cost a pretty penny, now make a new toon and solo all quests&raids on elite to 28 and then come back wining on the forum that the game is too easyI wouldn't say they "had no right to be in on Elite," but I would say new players shouldn't have an expectation of success on the game's harder difficulties right out of the gate.

Oh, and btw: my two mains that are well geared Completionists with a number of Epic PLs did not "cost a pretty penny," unless you're including the cost of purchasing quest packs/expansions (many on sale even). No Ottos, no store bought XP pots, no store bought tomes, none of it. They were developed through play, tyvm.

[MaeveTuohy]

1. I belong to a large, high-level guild and I know few members who can solo upper-tier EE quests, and even some of the more challenging HE (Mirror, Terminal Delirium). There are no hard numbers on the percentage of players that can solo epic elite quests and raids and until we have real data on that I remain skeptical of assertions by long-term players who frequent the forum that the existing game needs to be made harder across the board.

2. Rewards are very much personal. For me it's knowing I could complete something, that I crossed that threshold. For other's it's bragging rights with their peers; for some public acknowledgement by outperforming in a group or posting videos; for others only named loot will do it. Or it's a combination of all or some of these.

3. Demands from long-term players for ever more named items to chase are merely drugs to an addict. Add more and they will be farmed quickly and a new slew demanded. Named items as a principal reward is an insatiable desire and should not be a central design consideration for the game.

4. Bring on a new difficulty rating for the truly obsessed, but do not offer unique loot or significantly greater xp as the reward: it is pointless. The people who will want to face the challenge of "reaper" are likely looking for personal achievement or public status. The former cannot be rewarded by the game; the latter need only be cosmetic - rewards that can be seen in public (think graphics like the Boston Strong floating ribbon).

5. Get rid of Casual; it's a dead difficulty.

[Pnumbra]

As a player, I want challenge, not difficulty. No one enjoys difficult situations, but we do enjoy a good challenge. Especially if the reward is on par with said challenge. This is where Turbine is failing. For some reason, challenge has meant ratcheting up HP, adding immunities, and dishing out ridiculous amounts of damage.

In turn, we scream, "give us more power," and the cycle repeats.

How abut, the following:

1. Fix existing bugs and complete those tickets submitted by players.
2. Revamp the favor system; heroic and epic levels should not offer the same amount of reward.
3. Finish the favor reward system. NPCs should not tell players "thanks for your hard work, but we have nothing to offer you for helping us outs...so sorry".
4. Increase cut-scenes in quest to add to the saga storyline. Good examples are the new Amrath quest, MOTU, and the Harper/Netherese Saga.
5. Make loot relevant again. The rush now is to get that named item and sell the normal loot.
6. If not #5, then remove loot and replace it with collectibles for crafting and/or trading.
7. Reduce the grind, and increase the need to group. Grinding is boring, grouping is fun, exhausting, and rewarding.

I can see another 10 years in DDO if they would just do the little things.

[Gauthaag]

As a player, I want challenge, not difficulty. No one enjoys difficult situations, but we do enjoy a good challenge. Especially if the reward is on par with said challenge. This is where Turbine is failing. For some reason, challenge has meant ratcheting up HP, adding immunities, and dishing out ridiculous amounts of damage.

In turn, we scream, "give us more power," and the cycle repeats.

How abut, the following:

1. Fix existing bugs and complete those tickets submitted by players.
2. Revamp the favor system; heroic and epic levels should not offer the same amount of reward.
3. Finish the favor reward system. NPCs should not tell players "thanks for your hard work, but we have nothing to offer you for helping us outs...so sorry".
4. Increase cut-scenes in quest to add to the saga storyline. Good examples are the new Amrath quest, MOTU, and the Harper/Netherese Saga.
5. Make loot relevant again. The rush now is to get that named item and sell the normal loot.
6. If not #5, then remove loot and replace it with collectibles for crafting and/or trading.
7. Reduce the grind, and increase the need to group. Grinding is boring, grouping is fun, exhausting, and rewarding.

I can see another 10 years in DDO if they would just do the little things.

agreed

[MaeveTuohy]

As a player, I want challenge, not difficulty. No one enjoys difficult situations, but we do enjoy a good challenge. Especially if the reward is on par with said challenge. This is where Turbine is failing. For some reason, challenge has meant ratcheting up HP, adding immunities, and dishing out ridiculous amounts of damage.

In turn, we scream, "give us more power," and the cycle repeats.

How abut, the following:

1. Fix existing bugs and complete those tickets submitted by players.
2. Revamp the favor system; heroic and epic levels should not offer the same amount of reward.
3. Finish the favor reward system. NPCs should not tell players "thanks for your hard work, but we have nothing to offer you for helping us outs...so sorry".
4. Increase cut-scenes in quest to add to the saga storyline. Good examples are the new Amrath quest, MOTU, and the Harper/Netherese Saga.
5. Make loot relevant again. The rush now is to get that named item and sell the normal loot.
6. If not #5, then remove loot and replace it with collectibles for crafting and/or trading.
7. Reduce the grind, and increase the need to group. Grinding is boring, grouping is fun, exhausting, and rewarding.

I can see another 10 years in DDO if they would just do the little things.

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Maybe. Not a priority for me and dev time is precious ...
5. + 6. Revamping loot would be terrific. I also think they give far too much loot in a chest. There shouldn't always be an item and platinum and the amount of platiunum is too high. One thing per chest: an item, platinum, or one thing from a larger table that can include USEFUL scrolls and most crafting ingredients (not bound).
7. Grinding is your own choice. Accept that some rewards must be hard to obtain. Grouping is your choice. Find groups, have fun, but don't expect the game to make it a requirement as most players solo and some do so exclusively for a range of very good reasons.

[PNellesen]

Well, one way would be to retroactively remove stat increases from tomes from all characters. Apparently it's easy to do...

[PermaBanned]

Well, one way would be to retroactively remove stat increases from tomes from all characters. Apparently it's easy to do...

Had removal of Tome bonuses been the intention, I suspect the results would've been different ^^

[Xenich]

I would not make old ftp quests harder. We recently had some people join the game and our guild was flooded with messages how stupid hard the game is on elite, horror stories about champion archers doing 300 dmg in level 5 quests and don't let me get started on champion tharak hounds or beholders.

The gap between old players with multiple trs, knowledge of the game and twink gear and a new player is huge.

Just introduce a mode that all mobs, every single one of them is a champion for those who want more difficulty. The reward would be obviously more remnants/champion chests.

The bold.

Let me quote it again:

how stupid hard the game is on elite

One more time...

on elite


Lets see... There is:

1. Casual
2. Normal
3. Hard

But apparently, there is something wrong with the game for "new folks" because "elite" is too difficult.

Here is an idea... I know... its really going out there...

How about NOT PLAYING ON ELITE?

I mean, its brilliant right? Amazing! I have solved the worlds problems now! People can choose to play the game at a level that is of their chosen difficulty.

But... No... I guess that is asking too much right?

It makes much more sense to have a more difficult OPTION changed to be easier like the OTHER OPTIONS. Yep, that is the best solution. /facepalm

[Ykt]

How can we overcome resistance to posting suggestions and ideas in the Suggestions & Ideas forum section?

I don't want to see the dead horses people have been beating on for 5 years.

[Gauthaag]

heh, I just remembered my first ever elite irestone inlet - we stepped in, armed to teeth with full group of newbies and heroicly wiped at second camp:) I was feared to step in on elite again for weeks:)

[Chai]

It's a matter of politics. Let's say that they did as some people have suggested, and rename elite to hard. Then elite would be....a completely new diffculty! That didn't exist before. Now they can introduce this new difficulty in a politically stupid way, or they can make it sound like an expansion to the game. One would be viewed as a punishment, and the other would be viewed as a reward. Like almost anything, what it actually is is less important than what it is perceived to be.

How about the argument that a new difficulty would need a new reward. If they simply rebalanced the existing difficulties, how would they change the rewards? If they don't need to make new rewards for neo-elite, then they don't need to make them for reaper either.

Elite was supposed to be completable by a well organized group of veteran players, yes? That ain't hard enough. Reaper should be so hard that nobody is supposed to be able to complete it, at least not consistently. If it were that hard, just acknowledgement that it was completed should be enough reward. People say what is the incentive to repeat on this difficulty. Maybe there shouldn't be one. This should not be a difficulty that anybody farms.

Good game design uses the carrot and stick equally. There are a few people who have been advocating an all stick no carrot system for reaper and saying that is people don't play the higher difficulty they didn't want it anyhow, which is incorrect. The carrot and the stick go hand in hand in game design. Remove either one from the equation, and the fun lasts but a short time, then tapers off and increased attrition occurs.

In an environment where people repeatedly use the "limited dev time" justification, why would anyone propose a system which the top 5% would run once or twice for bragging rights then never run again due to lack of incentive?


As far as i can tell, it's you rebalance guys that are really hung up on the semantic element of this thing. How about if they boot casual at the same time as they introduce reaper? That would fulfill this arbitrary concept that four difficulties is enough.

Its not merely a semantic argument. The arbitrary quantity of settings isn't the hang up. The hang up is the logical understanding that the highest difficulty setting being the default setting everyone is entitled to complete with a failure chance of minimal to none, creates a system where every other difficulty setting doesn't really support any significant number of players, or play styles. Those who advocate elite-as-default-difficulty act like this is all arbitrary argumentation and nothing more, because to acknowledge otherwise would be admitting the state of the game they advocate doesn't engage anyone else enough to add any significant replay value, or contribute in any other way which retains players.

If Turbine doesn't take a stand on this, when reaper does get implemented, and it does have higher xp/loot rewards, it will be defeated repeatedly alright, but that "victory" will be won on the forums and not in game, just as it was with elite. No matter how you slice it, making the highest difficulty setting the default setting the vast majority of players are entitled to defeat and rarely If ever fail in, is not an argument supported by logic when it comes to game design in the best interest of player retention.

[PermaBanned]

Accept that acknowledgement aka "bragging rights" is a meaningless reward.
So that's why people make those videos of themselves demolishing quests, setting speed records and/or scoring "stars aligned" massive Crits...


...And Reaper by its very name warns newcomers -- death awaits you, turn back or die...
While I would hope you're correct, I'm concerned that (especially if the difficulty is "properly incentivized/rewarded") instead it will be interpreted as "Come on in & Reap even better rewards than Elite!"

[slarden]

The bold.

Let me quote it again:

how stupid hard the game is on elite

One more time...

on elite


Lets see... There is:

1. Casual
2. Normal
3. Hard

But apparently, there is something wrong with the game for "new folks" because "elite" is too difficult.

Here is an idea... I know... its really going out there...

How about NOT PLAYING ON ELITE?

I mean, its brilliant right? Amazing! I have solved the worlds problems now! People can choose to play the game at a level that is of their chosen difficulty.

But... No... I guess that is asking too much right?

It makes much more sense to have a more difficult OPTION changed to be easier like the OTHER OPTIONS. Yep, that is the best solution. /facepalm

There are end game quests and there are leveling quests. As far end game quests go - they are exploring the possibility of a reaper difficulty level. For leveling quests, I've only played 3 MMOs but DDO was definitely the hardest among the 3 by a very large margin.

Casual, normal and hard difficulty are effectively solo difficulties because it's really hard to find leveling quest lfms below Elite until you get to epic levels. I don't much care what they do with end game as long as they don't crush build diversity, but I don't see a reason to waste developer time increasing difficulty of old heroic quests when it appeals to a very small audience and more are likely opposed to the idea than in favor of it.

The problem is armor up made the game too easy for some builds. That can't be fixed by adjusting quest difficulty.

[PsychoBlonde]

1. The game is easy by intended design goals (ie mainstreamed due to Turbine/WB intention).
2. Difficulty without proper risk/reward is meaningless to many people.
3. Giving proper risk/reward will anger the mainstream.
4. The game is easy by intended design goals (ie mainstreamed due to Turbine/WB intention).

There is no solution here. Honestly, I am not trying to be negative, merely pointing out that I have seen this happen with many MMOs.

The game of challenge you once knew is gone. There may be some challenge brought back in some forms (usually in the form of conditional grinds or maybe some end game raid requirement), but having general content difficult is not a design goal. If they make a new level in heroics/epics that require people to have TRd, min/maxed, etc... to succeed, the mainstream will complain and only they are important.

Understand this, accept it and you may still find enjoyment with the game. If it isn't anymore, drop it and move on. Being loyal to a game company these days is foolish.

There's still plenty of challenge in the game. It's just not where people think it is, and they don't want to do it because it is *genuinely* hard and no uberness on the part of your toon will compensate for it. I know plenty of "uber" vets who STILL can't do many of the cannith challenges or tiles in Abbot for ****. Heck, I love the puzzles in this game but some of them I still regularly pull up a solver for instead of legitimately doing them.

There are a lot of aspects to the game that make it pretty well unique. TRing keeps the population churning so you never have a huge clump of bored vets with all their characters capped grinding raids. It keeps the lower-level content active but it also means that doing the high-level stuff nearly requires PUGs--which, in turn, have to have a decent chance of pulling it off. Also, due to TRing, people tend to cycle through character builds. A character isn't dedicated toward taking advantage of a particular build, because over their lifetime you'll probably do dozens. People don't have "my trapper" "my caster" "my bard" "my healer" any more.

The state of not having an endgame is probably going to persist until they quit raising the level cap and adding bigger stats to everything. When I first started playing all content past Gianthold was basically "endgame". It was a lot of stuff. Going to a +7 item from a +6 was a big deal, something that would take you months of runs on epic quests and raids to achieve. Now, epic gear goes from +7 to +12 in a flash. And most of that super-high-level stuff is useless because you're not going to sit at 28 to USE it. You just sort of put it on, admire yourself for a bit, then move on. My best gear is old level 20 stuff because I can use it right away once I get to epics!

It's a weird place to be in.

[Xenich]

There are end game quests and there are leveling quests. As far end game quests go - they are exploring the possibility of a reaper difficulty level. For leveling quests, I've only played 3 MMOs but DDO was definitely the hardest among the 3 by a very large margin.

Casual, normal and hard difficulty are effectively solo difficulties because it's really hard to find leveling quest lfms below Elite until you get to epic levels. I don't much care what they do with end game as long as they don't crush build diversity, but I don't see a reason to waste developer time increasing difficulty of old heroic quests when it appeals to a very small audience and more are likely opposed to the idea than in favor of it.

The problem is armor up made the game too easy for some builds. That can't be fixed by adjusting quest difficulty.

Well, I have played most of the main MMOs out from release and at its state now, the difficulty is sub par for the heroics. That is not to say that some traps or conditions at times don't create issues, but over all the elites are ridiculously easy compared to last time I played 3-4 years ago. Something has been tuned down in them that has taken the "challenge" out of them. Soloing them really depended on the specific dungeon, my class and how careful I was. Even then, it usually resulted in a fair number of deaths. Now, I really don't have a concern as such and even playing with friends, we never die unless it is a trap mishap.

Anyway, I never play the other difficulties because of this. I would like to see a higher difficulty that requires a balanced group and exists for TR based character challenge, not for people wishing to level off of.

[Gauthaag]

Well, I have played most of the main MMOs out from release and at its state now, the difficulty is sub par for the heroics. That is not to say that some traps or conditions at times don't create issues, but over all the elites are ridiculously easy compared to last time I played 3-4 years ago. Something has been tuned down in them that has taken the "challenge" out of them. Soloing them really depended on the specific dungeon, my class and how careful I was. Even then, it usually resulted in a fair number of deaths. Now, I really don't have a concern as such and even playing with friends, we never die unless it is a trap mishap.

Anyway, I never play the other difficulties because of this. I would like to see a higher difficulty that requires a balanced group and exists for TR based character challenge, not for people wishing to level off of.

put on crappiest heavy armor and u ll get better damage reduction than with adamantine plate back in old days - that's enough difference

[slarden]

Well, I have played most of the main MMOs out from release and at its state now, the difficulty is sub par for the heroics. That is not to say that some traps or conditions at times don't create issues, but over all the elites are ridiculously easy compared to last time I played 3-4 years ago. Something has been tuned down in them that has taken the "challenge" out of them. Soloing them really depended on the specific dungeon, my class and how careful I was. Even then, it usually resulted in a fair number of deaths. Now, I really don't have a concern as such and even playing with friends, we never die unless it is a trap mishap.

Anyway, I never play the other difficulties because of this. I would like to see a higher difficulty that requires a balanced group and exists for TR based character challenge, not for people wishing to level off of.

This is mostly due to armor up - not quest difficulty.

[Xenich]

There's still plenty of challenge in the game. It's just not where people think it is, and they don't want to do it because it is *genuinely* hard and no uberness on the part of your toon will compensate for it. I know plenty of "uber" vets who STILL can't do many of the cannith challenges or tiles in Abbot for ****. Heck, I love the puzzles in this game but some of them I still regularly pull up a solver for instead of legitimately doing them.

There are a lot of aspects to the game that make it pretty well unique. TRing keeps the population churning so you never have a huge clump of bored vets with all their characters capped grinding raids. It keeps the lower-level content active but it also means that doing the high-level stuff nearly requires PUGs--which, in turn, have to have a decent chance of pulling it off. Also, due to TRing, people tend to cycle through character builds. A character isn't dedicated toward taking advantage of a particular build, because over their lifetime you'll probably do dozens. People don't have "my trapper" "my caster" "my bard" "my healer" any more.

The state of not having an endgame is probably going to persist until they quit raising the level cap and adding bigger stats to everything. When I first started playing all content past Gianthold was basically "endgame". It was a lot of stuff. Going to a +7 item from a +6 was a big deal, something that would take you months of runs on epic quests and raids to achieve. Now, epic gear goes from +7 to +12 in a flash. And most of that super-high-level stuff is useless because you're not going to sit at 28 to USE it. You just sort of put it on, admire yourself for a bit, then move on. My best gear is old level 20 stuff because I can use it right away once I get to epics!

It's a weird place to be in.

Oh I don't deny there are some "challenging" aspects of play. Certainly time based challenges provide a level of required effort. Outside of that, I would love to see extremely difficult content again. The type of content where the party needs to be balanced, well developed and skilled in their play and even with extremely careful and slow approach, they still need to hone their experience in the dungeon to conquer it. EQ (used to) provided such difficulty in certain areas of the game, a true "dungeon crawl" where everyone was required to be on guard, on task and in key or it was a wipe, a loss, etc...

I don't see why there shouldn't be content in this game like that, especially with its difficulty system. There is no reason to not have all levels of content from ridiculously easy to impossibly hard. In this instance, everyone could be happy, but... as I pointed out... Mainstreamers would never allow it. They would complain about such being a segregation catering to the elitists. Like I said, there is no appealing to both parties in the end.

[Xenich]

This is mostly due to armor up - not quest difficulty.

I am not familiar with the armor up. What was this change exactly?

[DarigTheLost]

Gessh, a whole of talk about reaper difficulty and then there is this thread as well with all the " NO NO NO " I was going to basically ignore the thread but just had a light bulb go off in my head.

not a programmer so no idea of the resources to create this.

TOTAL DEBUFF OF 99% OF EVERYTHING. no tome bonus, all gear is dropped down ..... like raids, no rezz cakes, heck nothing that can be bought in DDO store is useable. I almost think my mind is running along the lines of D and D old school, power creep, and perma death.

The couple peeps I know that run peema death toons have some interesting in house rules, reaper could incorporate some of those. Talk about a challenge, for those that remember life before 20+, run an elite with just random gen gear.....

Yes a total debuff of your gear, while in the quest, stats, no hires like raids, no store/daily dice available anything. ( air ship bonuses negated/stripped upon entering.....

hmmm and rewards.... cheesy way 1 more favour point ? I read somebody toss around medals. I like the idea of a separate system of reward that focuses more on bragging rights than new gear.

side note. if all u have to say is negative, don't bother typing, go do something useful with your fingers. you are the problem and maybe u should think about how to make things better and contribute that way.

[Pnumbra]

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Maybe. Not a priority for me and dev time is precious ...
5. + 6. Revamping loot would be terrific. I also think they give far too much loot in a chest. There shouldn't always be an item and platinum and the amount of platiunum is too high. One thing per chest: an item, platinum, or one thing from a larger table that can include USEFUL scrolls and most crafting ingredients (not bound).
7. Grinding is your own choice. Accept that some rewards must be hard to obtain. Grouping is your choice. Find groups, have fun, but don't expect the game to make it a requirement as most players solo and some do so exclusively for a range of very good reasons.

Playing the game is a choice; what's your point?

My suggestion does not remove or infer a lack of choice. It states that grinding is counterproductive and should be tempered with strong incentives for grouping. Grouping is what sustains this game, not the solo venture, although we all enjoy it season to season. Personally I soloed this game for the first 9 months of play. It was getting boring fast and I was close to tackling the next game on my list. Then I joined a new guild who is really into group questing. This led to meeting other people who enjoy grouping for quest. Yes, there are reasons to take a break, but for the most part grouping is a very strong component for success in this game. I have said this many time, DDO is by design a solo game with a grouping element, and it is this grouping dynamic that makes the game excel in terms of player satisfaction.

Back on point, my list begins with making good on the small things. Small test of change do far more for the good of the game than large sweeping failures.

[FifthTime]

If they really want to address game difficulty one of the things Turbine needs to do is to re-balance their updated classes.

Playing a non-updated class to cap is much different then playing one of the super powered updated classes. The game has a definite two tier system when it comes to classes; those that are moderately easy to play if played properly and those that are mind numbingly easy to play for nearly everyone.

[Xenich]

put on crappiest heavy armor and u ll get better damage reduction than with adamantine plate back in old days - that's enough difference

Really? And why did they do this? What was their plan? Was it just to invalidate content for the masses? If that is what has killed the difficulty in the game, I would have preferred if they would have just sold godly armor in the store so the only way I could ruin my game is if I was stupid enough to pay money for it. /sigh



I like the idea of a separate system of reward that focuses more on bragging rights than new gear.


That isn't a reward for many. I have been there, done that in games when I was a kid, I have no desire or care to impress other people on my accomplishments in a video game. I want rewards that have practical application for the purpose of my characters development. Everything else is just narcissism.

[slarden]

I am not familiar with the armor up. What was this change exactly?

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446136-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-1?p=5390394&viewfull=1#post5390394

I am not saying it was a bad idea or even bad implenentation. it's just none of the older content was adjusted to account for the fact that people were taking 50% less magic damage from MRR for example now adjusting old content is problematic because there is already a huge balance issue between build with high PRR/MRR and those without.

[Algreg]

1. The game is easy by intended design goals (ie mainstreamed due to Turbine/WB intention).
2. Difficulty without proper risk/reward is meaningless to many people.
3. Giving proper risk/reward will anger the mainstream.
4. The game is easy by intended design goals (ie mainstreamed due to Turbine/WB intention).

There is no solution here. Honestly, I am not trying to be negative, merely pointing out that I have seen this happen with many MMOs.

The game of challenge you once knew is gone. There may be some challenge brought back in some forms (usually in the form of conditional grinds or maybe some end game raid requirement), but having general content difficult is not a design goal. If they make a new level in heroics/epics that require people to have TRd, min/maxed, etc... to succeed, the mainstream will complain and only they are important.

Understand this, accept it and you may still find enjoyment with the game. If it isn't anymore, drop it and move on. Being loyal to a game company these days is foolish.

I absolutely agree. But I think there is barely any place to move to. The gaming industry is after casual money since gaming became mainstream. There are some quirky products swimming against the tide, like maybe Demon´s Souls, but even those games become "more accessible" with every new iteration. Let´s face it, gaming delivering challenge and thrill has been replaced by gaming in the spirit of telenovelas, "relaxing" with an everyone is special approach. Games as an art form and an escape from everyday boredom are dead, they are pretty much like work in the office with some nicer colors.

[Xenich]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446136-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-1?p=5390394&viewfull=1#post5390394

I am not saying it was a bad idea or even bad implenentation. it's just none of the older content was adjusted to account for the fact that people were taking 50% less magic damage from MRR for example now adjusting old content is problematic because there is already a huge balance issue between build with high PRR/MRR and those without.

Now some of the posts that insult the devs make a little more sense. This really is on them. To put such a drastic systems change into play and not consider the earlier content, its poor approach, to be nice.

The only way I can see them fixing it is to bring all the old content up to speed and then adjust all the rewards in the old content to account for the changes (retroactively adjusting the gear people already have).

[FestusHood]

If Turbine doesn't take a stand on this, when reaper does get implemented, and it does have higher xp/loot rewards, it will be defeated repeatedly alright, but that "victory" will be won on the forums and not in game, just as it was with elite. No matter how you slice it, making the highest difficulty setting the default setting the vast majority of players are entitled to defeat and rarely If ever fail in, is not an argument supported by logic when it comes to game design in the best interest of player retention.

How long did it take for elite to go from being truly difficult to the default setting? Let's say that they actually did alter elite significantly rather than just empowering characters without adjusting content, which i think is more accurate.

If it takes as long for reaper mode to become the default difficulty as it did for elite, it will still be a success. Reminded of the scene in Citizen Kane where Orson Welles is being told that his paper lost a million dollars last year. His response being, yes, it lots a million dollars last year. I expect to lose a million dollars this year, and the year after that. At this rate i'll have to close this paper....in 60 years. A system doesn't necessarily have to be perpetually sustainable. Sometimes a while is good enough.

As far as rewards for reaper goes, they could just give some kind of token or credit for completing it. That token could then be used to purchase cosmetics, convenience, and/or non permanent buff items. Think like those new potions they have that give you +10 melee power for an hour. Cosmetics could look like medals that a character would wear in a new slot.

[Chai]

I absolutely agree. But I think there is barely any place to move to. The gaming industry is after casual money since gaming became mainstream. There are some quirky products swimming against the tide, like maybe Demon´s Souls, but even those games become "more accessible" with every new iteration. Let´s face it, gaming delivering challenge and thrill has been replaced by gaming in the spirit of telenovelas, "relaxing" with an everyone is special approach. Games as an art form and an escape from everyday boredom are dead, they are pretty much like work in the office with some nicer colors.

True.

Ive just never seen a true casual player claim they need to be able to run elite with minimal failure chance or they will leave the game. Usually long standing vets make this claim while tossing casual players under the bus. claiming the casuals will leave if the highest difficulty isn't kept easy enough for them. This is done to avoid discussing the real agenda of why elite-as-default needs to be kept the status quo.

In a 4 difficulty setting game the game can be more accessible to all players using the lower difficulty settings while still offering challenge in the higher settings. Done correctly, Casual difficulty would be story mode, normal difficulty would be solo mode, hard difficulty would be group mode, and elite difficulty would be nightmare mode. Those lower difficulty settings would be loaded with players who that appeals to.

[Xenich]

I absolutely agree. But I think there is barely any place to move to. The gaming industry is after casual money since gaming became mainstream. There are some quirky products swimming against the tide, like maybe Demon´s Souls, but even those games become "more accessible" with every new iteration. Let´s face it, gaming delivering challenge and thrill has been replaced by gaming in the spirit of telenovelas, "relaxing" with an everyone is special approach. Games as an art form and an escape from everyday boredom are dead, they are pretty much like work in the office with some nicer colors.

It isn't completely dead, there are still some people out there who believe that marketing to niche groups and accepting a smaller profit margin for such is still a worthy venture. Pantheon (Brad McQuaid's MMO, maker of EQ/Vanguard) is attempting just that. So time will tell if 1) His project is actually delivered 2) There is a large enough audience to support it. Personally, I think there is. Mainstream gamers are casual/console gamers. Before they moved into the online MMO market, there were still plenty of people playing. EQ/AC had a profitable subscription base long before WoW and its clones brought the mainstreamer to the market. The real test will be if Pantheon resists the appeal of the mainstream market who will certainly flood to it at the start. Like I said, time will tell.

[Chai]

How long did it take for elite to go from being truly difficult to the default setting? Let's say that they actually did alter elite significantly rather than just empowering characters without adjusting content, which i think is more accurate.

If it takes as long for reaper mode to become the default difficulty as it did for elite, it will still be a success. Reminded of the scene in Citizen Kane where Orson Welles is being told that his paper lost a million dollars last year. His response being, yes, it lots a million dollars last year. I expect to lose a million dollars this year, and the year after that. At this rate i'll have to close this paper....in 60 years. A system doesn't necessarily have to be perpetually sustainable. Sometimes a while is good enough.

Now that the victory won on the forums rather than in game is precedence, those advocating this will expect it to occur in far less time. Observe how long it took for champions to be nerfed. The elite-as-default militia was mobilized rather quickly on that one.


As far as rewards for reaper goes, they could just give some kind of token or credit for completing it. That token could then be used to purchase cosmetics, convenience, and/or non permanent buff items. Think like those new potions they have that give you +10 melee power for an hour. Cosmetics could look like medals that a character would wear in a new slot.

Good game design occurs when the carrot and stick are used equally. How long do you believe that would incentivize people running reaper? I predict the cosmetic-only-carrot would be consumed entirely by the market audience in a matter of 1-2 months.

[Ralmeth]

Gessh, a whole of talk about reaper difficulty and then there is this thread as well with all the " NO NO NO " I was going to basically ignore the thread but just had a light bulb go off in my head.

not a programmer so no idea of the resources to create this.

TOTAL DEBUFF OF 99% OF EVERYTHING. no tome bonus, all gear is dropped down ..... like raids, no rezz cakes, heck nothing that can be bought in DDO store is useable. I almost think my mind is running along the lines of D and D old school, power creep, and perma death.

The couple peeps I know that run peema death toons have some interesting in house rules, reaper could incorporate some of those. Talk about a challenge, for those that remember life before 20+, run an elite with just random gen gear.....

Yes a total debuff of your gear, while in the quest, stats, no hires like raids, no store/daily dice available anything. ( air ship bonuses negated/stripped upon entering.....

hmmm and rewards.... cheesy way 1 more favour point ? I read somebody toss around medals. I like the idea of a separate system of reward that focuses more on bragging rights than new gear.

side note. if all u have to say is negative, don't bother typing, go do something useful with your fingers. you are the problem and maybe u should think about how to make things better and contribute that way.

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think most people would enjoy being forced into that. Generally speaking, I've always really disliked getting debuffed, either in DDO or PnP. So this would probably have to be an opt-in system, and perhaps would make the most sense in a guild with house rules.

To add some challenge, I've been trying out different house rules to see what kind of difficulty I can add (when I actually get time to play). The latest set of rules I'm using on one character is that you are only allowed a first life character, no tomes, and you can use only one magic item per level of your character that you acquire only while questing (i.e. no AH, brokers). Oh, and with encouragement to quest 2 levels higher than you normally would (ex. if you're level 10, you should be running level 10 quests on elite). It's fun, it's different and it adds a bit more challenge, though at the end of the day the issue is that this game is so Monty Haul...really good items (compared to what we used to get) drop regularly, enhancements are so much more powerful than they used to be, healbot hires make it easy to get healed, rezzed, restored, etc, and have all made the game so much easier.

While leveling up in Heroics, the best & simplest way I found to add challenge is simply to run under-level. Personally, I've always thought that in terms of BB, the quest level should not be affected by the difficulty you select. So if the quest is level 10, when you select elite it's still a level 10 quest, though the difficulty would remain as is. Essentially everyone would have to run quests 2 levels higher than they currently are.

[FestusHood]

Now some of the posts that insult the devs make a little more sense. This really is on them. To put such a drastic systems change into play and not consider the earlier content, its poor approach, to be nice.

The only way I can see them fixing it is to bring all the old content up to speed and then adjust all the rewards in the old content to account for the changes (retroactively adjusting the gear people already have).

Before you condemn the changes completely, first try an experiment. Remove all removable sources of prr from your toon. Armor, items. You can keep any enhancment prr because we were actually able to get a little bit of mitigation before the changes too. Now pick up your favorite non ranged weapon and go melee some epic elite monsters. Then, after realizing that your options are either to die or hop around like a housefly, ask yourself if this is what playing a melee character is supposed to be like.

[Chai]

Before you condemn the changes completely, first try an experiment. Remove all removable sources of prr from your toon. Armor, items. You can keep any enhancment prr because we were actually able to get a little bit of mitigation before the changes too. Now pick up your favorite non ranged weapon and go melee some epic elite monsters. Then, after realizing that your options are either to die or hop around like a housefly, ask yourself if this is what playing a melee character is supposed to be like.

People were soloing what goes up on EE before those changes took place on centered kensai wearing no armor. They were not dying or hopping around like a housefly. at least, those weren't the "only options".

[Gremmlynn]

I think it's plain silly for the folks who claim they want a challenge, to also say they "need to be incentivized or properly rewarded" for undertaking the challenge they want. No point in explaining to me the whole risk/reward thing - I've seen it recycled endlessly, and I call it hog-wash. If you want a challenge, you want a challenge. If you need a worthy reward to undertake a challenge, you don't want the challenge you want the reward. I want a challenge, and I'm not asking for an additional reward - apparently I'm thinking it wrong...I think it has something to do with having a feeling of not "keeping up", or falling behind (with what, I have no idea) that makes people feel like their time is wasted if they can make better progress doing something else, regardless which is more fun for them. It's seems likely that people feel less like they are goofing off if they have quantifiably more to show for the time spent. Or it could be a way of keeping themselves from feeling they are goofing off by playing at all, if they have some sort of progress to show for it.

[Xenich]

Before you condemn the changes completely, first try an experiment. Remove all removable sources of prr from your toon. Armor, items. You can keep any enhancment prr because we were actually able to get a little bit of mitigation before the changes too. Now pick up your favorite non ranged weapon and go melee some epic elite monsters. Then, after realizing that your options are either to die or hop around like a housefly, ask yourself if this is what playing a melee character is supposed to be like.

No need, I was on a first life monk before they put this change in and played EE's. They were tough, mobs took a while to kill, but then I am an EQ vet and think fights should take longer than the average 3-5 second hack and slash of the games today. Now I haven't made it back to EE's as of yet (I TRd my monk and am working back up), so I guess I will let you know how it is when I get back up to EE's. That aside, the point was not that they made a change, rather it was that they made a change and didn't consider the ramifications of that "end game" change to the rest of the game. It is poor planning on their part. Now they have a problem with heroics and the transition to the new system as well as the TRing issue of old content. Considering this game is solidly centered around a cyclical character development system, their actions were amateur at best.


People were soloing what goes up on EE before those changes took place on centered kensai wearing no armor. They were not dying or hopping around like a housefly. at least, those weren't the "only options".

Yep, I solo'd quite well on my monk (Light side was a godsend for those long fights) back then. It took longer, but then I was excited about that. After playing games where every mob is a rush to get a hit in before they mow it down, it was nice to actually have to "use" the various skills and abilities my character had gained over the levels rather than watching my default attacks mow everything down without effort.

[FestusHood]

Now that the victory won on the forums rather than in game is precedence, those advocating this will expect it to occur in far less time. Observe how long it took for champions to be nerfed. The elite-as-default militia was mobilized rather quickly on that one.

Reaper mode would be on the other side of the tracks. Champions were invading peoples homes.



Good game design occurs when the carrot and stick are used equally. How long do you believe that would incentivize people running reaper? I predict the cosmetic-only-carrot would be consumed entirely by the market audience in a matter of 1-2 months.

How long would you have predicted the shard seal scroll epic level 20 cap would have been sustainable? The cosmetic could become altered with more completions. Same way a marine can add more ribbons and medals to his jacket. They will probably had to add new stuff from time to time. Same thing they would have to do if it was just static loot. People would eventually get all of that too.

Another thing to consider is whether reaper is going to be an endgame difficulty or simply a new difficulty that applies to all quests. As an endgame difficulty, they might be able to keep updating rewards to keep interest, but if it's game wide, no way. Not usable regular loot. An updating cosmetic could apply at all levels. Lots of ways they could set that up.

[slarden]

No need, I was on a first life monk before they put this change in and played EE's. They were tough, mobs took a while to kill, but then I am an EQ vet and think fights should take longer than the average 3-5 second hack and slash of the games today. Now I haven't made it back to EE's as of yet (I TRd my monk and am working back up), so I guess I will let you know how it is when I get back up to EE's. That aside, the point was not that they made a change, rather it was that they made a change and didn't consider the ramifications of that "end game" change to the rest of the game. It is poor planning on their part. Now they have a problem with heroics and the transition to the new system as well as the TRing issue of old content. Considering this game is solidly centered around a cyclical character development system, their actions were amateur at best.

There is a big difference between heroic elite and the most difficult EE content. The lower level EEs are not that hard.

[Chai]

Reaper mode would be on the other side of the tracks. Champions were invading peoples homes.

Elite used to be on the other side of the tracks too. Look what happened.


How long would you have predicted the shard seal scroll epic level 20 cap would have been sustainable? The cosmetic could become altered with more completions. Same way a marine can add more ribbons and medals to his jacket. They will probably had to add new stuff from time to time. Same thing they would have to do if it was just static loot. People would eventually get all of that too.

Another thing to consider is whether reaper is going to be an endgame difficulty or simply a new difficulty that applies to all quests. As an endgame difficulty, they might be able to keep updating rewards to keep interest, but if it's game wide, no way. Not usable regular loot. An updating cosmetic could apply at all levels. Lots of ways they could set that up.

What you are describing is the "bragging rights as end reward system" - commonly used in PVP game. In PVE games, the major incentive is the loot. The way they explained it, its not going to be endgame only.

[slarden]

Now some of the posts that insult the devs make a little more sense. This really is on them. To put such a drastic systems change into play and not consider the earlier content, its poor approach, to be nice.

The only way I can see them fixing it is to bring all the old content up to speed and then adjust all the rewards in the old content to account for the changes (retroactively adjusting the gear people already have).

Let me just clarify. i think very highly of Severlin and the devs. I didn't intend my post to be a criticism in any way. Severlin is my all-time favorite producer and I really appreciate how engaged the whole team is.

The devs did add the champion system specifically to address this issue but because of balance issue it was a challenge for some and others were getting one-shot due to low PRR. The devs dialed back the difficulty twice instead of trying to make a PRR/MRR neutral champion system. If they added mortal fear abilities for enemies for example a person with 200 PRR could actually feel threatened if the proc went off twice in a row.

Instead they put in mechanics that resulted in one-shotting of low PRR characters like full fortification bypass + damage boost.

If they were going to increase difficulty they should do it through the champion system.

For example if they had a champion option that was SELECTABLE such as 1) None 2) Standard 3) Double and 4) All people that had all enemies champions would be challenged and would actually get rewarded with more remnants for tomes, gear. To date they haven't acknowledged that the champion system itself is not balanced - specifically that it highly favors character with high PRR/MRR.

[FestusHood]

No need, I was on a first life monk before they put this change in and played EE's. They were tough, mobs took a while to kill, but then I am an EQ vet and think fights should take longer than the average 3-5 second hack and slash of the games today. Now I haven't made it back to EE's as of yet (I TRd my monk and am working back up), so I guess I will let you know how it is when I get back up to EE's. That aside, the point was not that they made a change, rather it was that they made a change and didn't consider the ramifications of that "end game" change to the rest of the game. It is poor planning on their part. Now they have a problem with heroics and the transition to the new system as well as the TRing issue of old content. Considering this game is solidly centered around a cyclical character development system, their actions were amateur at best.



Yep, I solo'd quite well on my monk (Light side was a godsend for those long fights) back then. It took longer, but then I was excited about that. After playing games where every mob is a rush to get a hit in before they mow it down, it was nice to actually have to "use" the various skills and abilities my character had gained over the levels rather than watching my default attacks mow everything down without effort.

For better or worse, champions was their response to the powercreep. If you weren't around for that fiasco, try to find the official champions thread from around the time of their introduction. It's 100+ pages long, went on strong for weeks, lingered a while after that.

[Xenich]

I think it has something to do with having a feeling of not "keeping up", or falling behind (with what, I have no idea) that makes people feel like their time is wasted if they can make better progress doing something else, regardless which is more fun for them. It's seems likely that people feel less like they are goofing off if they have quantifiably more to show for the time spent. Or it could be a way of keeping themselves from feeling they are goofing off by playing at all, if they have some sort of progress to show for it.

When I want challenge with no system of development or reward I play games that attend to such. For instance, basic FPS, RTS, Strategy, etc... games. There is no reward in most of those types of games. The reward is beating the challenge be it the computer or another player. That is the point. In a character development game, the point is the progression of that character throughout various obstacles and conditions. With each accomplishment, a reward is given that contributes to that characters development. This can be levels, equipment, progression unlocks, etc... The level of that reward is expected to be proportional to the amount of effort/risk that is required for a given obstacle. The greater the effort/risk, the greater the reward. This is a concept that is quite well established in RPGs. So naturally, if I am going to spend effort and take on risk in such a game, I expect some practical reward that is relevant to the games design and purpose.

[Qaliya]

If the new reaper mode has better loot, then we will be back at square one a few months after it is released.

Offering better rewards for more difficulty makes logical sense, but it drives the power drift and other issues we see with elite today. Everyone wants to run at elite not only to buff their egos but also to buff their characters. More XP, more loot, so everyone wants it.

If the idea is to offer more challenge for challenge's sake, and not have people who can't deal with "reaper mode" trying it and then complaining that it's too hard, then it should not offer better loot.

Make the challenge the only incentive.

[slarden]

If the new reaper mode has better loot, then we will be back at square one a few months after it is released.

Offering better rewards for more difficulty makes logical sense, but it drives the power drift and other issues we see with elite today. Everyone wants to run at elite not only to buff their egos but also to buff their characters. More XP, more loot, so everyone wants it.

If the idea is to offer more challenge for challenge's sake, and not have people who can't deal with "reaper mode" trying it and then complaining that it's too hard, then it should not offer better loot.

Make the challenge the only incentive.
They can maybe have the highest mythic tier drop on nightmare mode with a very small chance of it dropping at lower difficulties. As long as the last tier is only +1 they can add the better loot without increasing player power too much. I ran over 100 Defiler of the just on EN and never saw any mythic boost above +1 drop and as far as I know they go up to +3. I think this new system is working.

[Algreg]

It isn't completely dead, there are still some people out there who believe that marketing to niche groups and accepting a smaller profit margin for such is still a worthy venture. Pantheon (Brad McQuaid's MMO, maker of EQ/Vanguard) is attempting just that. So time will tell if 1) His project is actually delivered 2) There is a large enough audience to support it. Personally, I think there is. Mainstream gamers are casual/console gamers. Before they moved into the online MMO market, there were still plenty of people playing. EQ/AC had a profitable subscription base long before WoW and its clones brought the mainstreamer to the market. The real test will be if Pantheon resists the appeal of the mainstream market who will certainly flood to it at the start. Like I said, time will tell.

I don´t have any confidence left. Every game that started marketing with a "hardcore" or "old school" approach shifted midway (e.g. Star Citizen or Shroud of the Avatar "but of cause we will protect you from those evil pvp people") or was just released as a very bad game (clunky Wildstar). I am somewhat interested in Crowfall, even though the game system does not really appeal to me, just because of their approach to gaming. But I am rather certain they will shift focus soon enough, just like every game I took interest in recently. I guess games reflect society, and we now live in one that views achievers and people who want to be good at something suspiciously, a society that forbids scores in sports so no kids have their feelings hurt will worship mediocrity on every level.

[knockcocker]

When I want challenge with no system of development or reward I play games that attend to such. For instance, basic FPS, RTS, Strategy, etc... games. There is no reward in most of those types of games. The reward is beating the challenge be it the computer or another player. That is the point. In a character development game, the point is the progression of that character throughout various obstacles and conditions. With each accomplishment, a reward is given that contributes to that characters development. This can be levels, equipment, progression unlocks, etc... The level of that reward is expected to be proportional to the amount of effort/risk that is required for a given obstacle. The greater the effort/risk, the greater the reward. This is a concept that is quite well established in RPGs. So naturally, if I am going to spend effort and take on risk in such a game, I expect some practical reward that is relevant to the games design and purpose.

I'm not a big MMO player - DDO and Elite Dangerous are all I've played really. Is it the norm that higher
difficulty gives 'better rewards'? - presumably you mean better loot?. All the single player games I've
ever played do not do this (i.e. BG, BG2, DA etc.).

I think the system they've adopted now is better. Same base loot but chance of a mythic boost
on higher difficulties. ToEE has much higher drop rates for ingredients. Remnants drop
much more on EE. Tiered loot sucked IMO for all the reasons that Permabanned already stated
in the thread. Adding another reward tier will just maintain the status quo.

[FestusHood]

Elite used to be on the other side of the tracks too. Look what happened.



What you are describing is the "bragging rights as end reward system" - commonly used in PVP game. In PVE games, the major incentive is the loot. The way they explained it, its not going to be endgame only.

If it's not endgame only, there is no way i can see that there can be a loot reward for 90% of the game. The only way they could do it is if they just gave tokens that could be used to buy a relatively small amount of new gear. To prevent farming, i would make it so that you could only get one such token from each quest per life, at least for heroic. For epic a lengthy ransack would have to work so that people wouldn't feel compelled to do tr's. Maybe three days, just to get the tokens per quest.

No way they can make new versions of chest drop loot for the whole game.

The argument that cosmetics won't be an incentive, well what exactly would stronger loot be for players that are already crushing the game? They certainly don't need it, probably can't even perceive the difference it would make.

[Gremmlynn]

One of the biggest problems for me with the idea of "Reaper" giving any sort of extra/better (noncosmetic) reward above Elite, is that it'll just be restarting the cycle of "It's too hard" complaints followed by nerfs to the new difficulty. I don't know if it's the cajones or management's permission that would be lacking, but I just don't see the Devs responding to the "It's too hard" complaints with "This is WAI" - although I'd dearly love to be proven wrong on that! The problem with that is that those devs need us more than we need them. So basically saying "that's just the way we want it to be" is pretty bad idea from a business perspective. That seems to be looking at things from the perspective of a DM doesn't need players any more than those players need a DM as both can afford the attitude of it being better not to play at all than to not play their way.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Every time they make the game harder the forums are flooded by people complaining until the game gets nerfed again.

People find every way they can to exploit and also to avoid any fights that are not absolutely necessary for completion (or some uber chest drop)

LFMs exclude anyone perceived as weak for any reason.
or only want whatever class (with appropriate uber stats) they perceive as making the quest easier to complete.



..... I remain totally convinced that the vast majority of players do not desire a challenge.
(and some of you that state you do, have shown me otherwise by your actions... yes, I have played with some of you)





To be fair, there are many players who desire the game to be challenging for everyone else, but themselves...

[Gremmlynn]

The bold.

Let me quote it again:

how stupid hard the game is on elite

One more time...

on elite


Lets see... There is:

1. Casual
2. Normal
3. Hard

But apparently, there is something wrong with the game for "new folks" because "elite" is too difficult.

Here is an idea... I know... its really going out there...

How about NOT PLAYING ON ELITE?

I mean, its brilliant right? Amazing! I have solved the worlds problems now! People can choose to play the game at a level that is of their chosen difficulty.

But... No... I guess that is asking too much right?

It makes much more sense to have a more difficult OPTION changed to be easier like the OTHER OPTIONS. Yep, that is the best solution. /facepalmThe problem is that the game gives way to many incentives to play elite and, until very recently, to only play elite. The way things are set up, elite is pretty obviously the expected difficulty to play as all those other options are poor options relative to elite.

[FestusHood]

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think most people would enjoy being forced into that. Generally speaking, I've always really disliked getting debuffed, either in DDO or PnP. So this would probably have to be an opt-in system, and perhaps would make the most sense in a guild with house rules.

To add some challenge, I've been trying out different house rules to see what kind of difficulty I can add (when I actually get time to play). The latest set of rules I'm using on one character is that you are only allowed a first life character, no tomes, and you can use only one magic item per level of your character that you acquire only while questing (i.e. no AH, brokers). Oh, and with encouragement to quest 2 levels higher than you normally would (ex. if you're level 10, you should be running level 10 quests on elite). It's fun, it's different and it adds a bit more challenge, though at the end of the day the issue is that this game is so Monty Haul...really good items (compared to what we used to get) drop regularly, enhancements are so much more powerful than they used to be, healbot hires make it easy to get healed, rezzed, restored, etc, and have all made the game so much easier.

While leveling up in Heroics, the best & simplest way I found to add challenge is simply to run under-level. Personally, I've always thought that in terms of BB, the quest level should not be affected by the difficulty you select. So if the quest is level 10, when you select elite it's still a level 10 quest, though the difficulty would remain as is. Essentially everyone would have to run quests 2 levels higher than they currently are.

An interesting thing to try would be a no healing run. Nobody can heal themselves or anybody else. That should be a good challenge at almost any level of the game.

[BigErkyKid]

If the new reaper mode has better loot, then we will be back at square one a few months after it is released.

Offering better rewards for more difficulty makes logical sense, but it drives the power drift and other issues we see with elite today....

Make the challenge the only incentive.

The way games solve this is by offering a ladder of difficulty / loot.

To beat level X, you need level's X-1 loot. And so on.

With the addition that loot and abilities become increasingly complex and diverse as you advance levels.

In DDO we have something else. The ladder steps up so slowly that people end up playing X-1 levels with loot based X level difficulty. To compensate and extend the life of content, they offer us lots of X-1 loot / abilities (PLs) to grind.

In addition, it is one of the only games that I know of where you have FEWER valid abilities as you progress. At level 18 the diversity of builds is so much higher than at level 28.

[BigErkyKid]

An interesting thing to try would be a no healing run. Nobody can heal themselves or anybody else. That should be a good challenge at almost any level of the game.

cough cough warlock ;)

[Silverleafeon]

Before armor up, almost no one played melee toons...

[FifthTime]

Before armor up,not everyone played melee toons...

ftfy, correction in red.

[slarden]

Before armor up, almost no one played melee toons...

It would be more accurate to say since Armor Up it's best to play a melee. There were always alot of melees in the game.

[Erdrique]

Deciding the level of difficulty range is definitely a far reaching and touchy concept. I have to admit, I always liked that elite wasn't supposed to use the "scaling" that was initiated years ago. I tend to focus my initial play style for heroic quests on elite, although there are a few of these that I won't attempt solo (such as In the Flesh). If the "scaling" was working correctly, then I don't believe we would be in the situation we are in now.

For my epic questing, I don't bother to try epic elite, as I know that I don't have the skills and my characters don't have the appropriate gear as of yet. Some of these difficulty issues just need to be sucked up by the players, in my opinion. I just don't believe the players should feel that "elite" questing should be a breeze. Eventually the players will learn and gain the gear they need to make it through any quest, it just take some time. Sometimes I just don't understand the need to complete all quests on elite with minimal understanding of the mechanics employed or appropriate gear.

However with that said, I also feel comments made about quests being too easy on elite are sometimes exaggerated. The new quests in Update 27 for instance I found to be quite challenging and tough on heroic elite during my first run through of them. But the forums seemed to make them out to be a cake walk.

In either case, balancing player perception for the difficulty and what people feel they should be entitled to do is a tricky situation. I currently don't have any issues with the difficulty settings myself. I'll eventually get to the epic elite questing but I'm not going to let not running epic elite stop my enjoyment.

[Silverleafeon]

It would be more accurate to say since Armor Up it's best to play a melee. There were always alot of melees in the game.

Or should I say, "Right before armor up, melees were torn to shreds in EE, so archers, casters, the occasional healer, and the thick headed non barbarian part monk, part fighter kensei centered toon..." ?

[Gremmlynn]

When I want challenge with no system of development or reward I play games that attend to such. For instance, basic FPS, RTS, Strategy, etc... games. There is no reward in most of those types of games. The reward is beating the challenge be it the computer or another player. That is the point. In a character development game, the point is the progression of that character throughout various obstacles and conditions. With each accomplishment, a reward is given that contributes to that characters development. This can be levels, equipment, progression unlocks, etc... The level of that reward is expected to be proportional to the amount of effort/risk that is required for a given obstacle. The greater the effort/risk, the greater the reward. This is a concept that is quite well established in RPGs. So naturally, if I am going to spend effort and take on risk in such a game, I expect some practical reward that is relevant to the games design and purpose.Me, I'm going to do whatever is the most fun as long as it offers some sort of reward. Mostly because I realize that having fun is the basic reason I play at all.

That said, your premise, taken to the extreme, is how we ended up where we are. They put so much reward on playing the highest difficulty that virtually all other difficulties look pointless in comparison, even after they have backed some of that down. This is what happens when the devs start caring to much about what the players are running and worrying about them playing up to their standards. In other words, when the devs forget what they are being paid to do and start thinking competitively.

Their job is to try to make a game that people enjoy playing on their own, those players, terms, not those devs terms. Forget that and start disproportionately rewarding the highest level of performance in a effort to get players to see things your way and you'll just be leaving the game a mess for your replacements to clean up.

[Gremmlynn]

If the new reaper mode has better loot, then we will be back at square one a few months after it is released.

Offering better rewards for more difficulty makes logical sense, but it drives the power drift and other issues we see with elite today. Everyone wants to run at elite not only to buff their egos but also to buff their characters. More XP, more loot, so everyone wants it.

If the idea is to offer more challenge for challenge's sake, and not have people who can't deal with "reaper mode" trying it and then complaining that it's too hard, then it should not offer better loot.

Make the challenge the only incentive.Personally, I'm a fan of higher drop rates and enough extra xp to make it possible to be the best xp/min by, a small but worthwhile margin, once mastered. That's where I think the sweet spot is as it's in no way "must do" or we're missing out on something, nor are we missing out by doing it.

[MaeveTuohy]

Playing the game is a choice; what's your point?

The point is that you were complaining about grind. If you don't like that aspect of the game, don't engage in it, but it's there for a reason for it, and other players do like it.


My suggestion does not remove or infer a lack of choice. It states that grinding is counterproductive and should be tempered with strong incentives for grouping.

I didn't see a statement about counterproductivity and I don't see how it is counter-productive. What is it you think the game is producing such that grinding works counter to that? Players grind, they eventually get a reward. Many prefer this because it feels like it was hard-earned. Grouping is not an antidote to grinding, nor the other end of a spectrum to it.


Grouping is what sustains this game, not the solo venture, although we all enjoy it season to season.

People paying is what sustains the game. Soloists' money is as good as anyone's.


Personally I soloed this game for the first 9 months of play. It was getting boring fast and I was close to tackling the next game on my list. Then I joined a new guild who is really into group questing. This led to meeting other people who enjoy grouping for quest. Yes, there are reasons to take a break, but for the most part grouping is a very strong component for success in this game. I have said this many time, DDO is by design a solo game with a grouping element, and it is this grouping dynamic that makes the game excel in terms of player satisfaction.

That's terrific, but that's you. And it doesn't read like you need more incentive to group. You do because you enjoy it. Surely that is already enough?

[Enoach]

Before armor up, almost no one played melee toons...


It would be more accurate to say since Armor Up it's best to play a melee. There were always alot of melees in the game.

I think it was more accurate to say that before armor up EE at the top levels was not melee friendly. Even pushing good to excellent self-healer melee to the wall as far as being able to stay up. Let alone AC could not stand up to the To-Hit.

After armor up, the use of light, medium and even heavy armor began to get a wider use even for builds that typically would not use these armor types as the balance between evasion and heavy armor began to shift. More players started to realize that the ASF they once feared was less painful an issue then the benefits of more damage reduction.

[Gremmlynn]

I don´t have any confidence left. Every game that started marketing with a "hardcore" or "old school" approach shifted midway (e.g. Star Citizen or Shroud of the Avatar "but of cause we will protect you from those evil pvp people") or was just released as a very bad game (clunky Wildstar). I am somewhat interested in Crowfall, even though the game system does not really appeal to me, just because of their approach to gaming. But I am rather certain they will shift focus soon enough, just like every game I took interest in recently. I guess games reflect society, and we now live in one that views achievers and people who want to be good at something suspiciously, a society that forbids scores in sports so no kids have their feelings hurt will worship mediocrity on every level.Um no, it's about the money. Making a game that will only appeal to a small segment of the customer base will only end up with drawing customers from that segment. When you consider the front end costs of launching a game in the first place, that game is going to change when the people who paid that start up cost aren't satisfied with the results.

Say what you will what that says about society. That really wont make any difference as it wont change the reality of things. In other words, you wont change society by making a game to a different standard, you will just be making a game that most of that society simply wont play.

[Chai]

If it's not endgame only, there is no way i can see that there can be a loot reward for 90% of the game. The only way they could do it is if they just gave tokens that could be used to buy a relatively small amount of new gear. To prevent farming, i would make it so that you could only get one such token from each quest per life, at least for heroic. For epic a lengthy ransack would have to work so that people wouldn't feel compelled to do tr's. Maybe three days, just to get the tokens per quest.

No way they can make new versions of chest drop loot for the whole game.

I disagree, due to the fact that right now there is already a system in place for getting some loot that doesn't otherwise drop in quests. XP reward can be raised with little to no issue. Do you think the entitlement based mentality wont be applied liberally once this happens?


The argument that cosmetics won't be an incentive, well what exactly would stronger loot be for players that are already crushing the game? They certainly don't need it, probably can't even perceive the difference it would make.

This argument applies even more to your own position than it does to mine. Why advocate best end reward at even lower difficulties then? If people want to keep elite-as-default, and not have something to strive for, why do they need the best in slot loot, the highest XP, the highest favor? Not a power gamer? Shouldn't be worried about power gamer rewards. People already crush elite-as-default now, so they don't need power gamer rewards to crush elite-as-default in future content.

The logical answer of course, is the carrot incentivizes playing the content it comes out of. It provides incentive above and beyond bragging rights and cosmetics. Carrot and stick applied equally is good game design.

[slarden]

I think it was more accurate to say that before armor up EE at the top levels was not melee friendly. Even pushing good to excellent self-healer melee to the wall as far as being able to stay up. Let alone AC could not stand up to the To-Hit.

After armor up, the use of light, medium and even heavy armor began to get a wider use even for builds that typically would not use these armor types as the balance between evasion and heavy armor began to shift. More players started to realize that the ASF they once feared was less painful an issue then the benefits of more damage reduction.

Before armor up the achievement boards were dominated by self-healing melees, but i agree the changes did promote build diversity.

[FestusHood]

Before armor up the achievement boards were dominated by self-healing melees, but i agree the changes did promote build diversity.

That was old blitz. Recent powercreep still hasn't caught up to that.

[Pnumbra]

The point is that you were complaining about grind. If you don't like that aspect of the game, don't engage in it, but it's there for a reason for it, and other players do like it.

I did not complain. I mentioned grinding and its affect. The affect is factual. I gave no personal view of it. Grinding in any game is boring, repetitive and cannot hold a player's interest for long.


I didn't see a statement about counterproductivity and I don't see how it is counter-productive. What is it you think the game is producing such that grinding works counter to that? Players grind, they eventually get a reward. Many prefer this because it feels like it was hard-earned. Grouping is not an antidote to grinding, nor the other end of a spectrum to it.

I don't see how you missed the couterproductivity phenomena, but alright, what is intuitive about grinding? You mention reward. A rare reward ransack of quests are less about grinding and more about needing or wanting the reward. Even then, the player will zerg through the quest, avoiding all sidebars to get to the end, thus the joy of grinding. If repeating a quest 50 times was the goal, we would not have these conversations nor would players share their dislike of such repetition.


People paying is what sustains the game. Soloists' money is as good as anyone's.
You again are mentioning the obvious. I don't see your point. "Anyone", is a player who solos and groups according to their play style. But let's be clear, solo players eventually seek out groups or play less. I don't think my experience or observation is unique.



That's terrific, but that's you. And it doesn't read like you need more incentive to group. You do because you enjoy it. Surely that is already enough?

No, this is not enough. I group because continued solo play would lead me to moving on to another game faster than necessary. I want bugs fixed, not more buggy content for the sake of adding content. I have a bug report that is 8-months old.

My list was observational and not a self indulgent list of complaints.

[GoldyGopher]

Said this so many times on the forums but I'll give my stance again.

Expectations for elite difficulty are set and aren't changing - players want it to be soloable and easily completeable. That ship has sailed.

The solution here is creating a new difficulty. There won't be any player expectations at this difficulty. Utilize the monster champion system already in place so it doesn't take a ton of dev hours. Copy and paste elite difficulty...turn up the champion spawn rate and stats until we reach desired difficulty level. Incentivize it with nice but not must have drops like remnants, higher drop rates for named loot, cosmetics, ect. Also drop store items like lesser hearts and tomes at a very low drop rate so there's a grind vrs. real money mechanic with this difficulty.

Should make everyone happy. All named loot will still drop on all levels. I wouldn't be against a small upgrade in loot on a higher difficulty level but would be fine with it not being there also as it may make the new difficulty feel "required" which may lead to it being dumbed down and we'd end up in the same boat all over again.

This is clearly where the problem lies.

What players want Elite to be Soloable? Sure there are a few posters here on the forums, but what percentage of the players is it?
Every time the subject comes up on the forum (and other sites) the overwhelming majority of posters (not posts) clearly post in the lets make Elite difficulty harder category.

Creating a new difficulty doesn't solve anything, rather it makes the current situation far worse in game; rather than having two groups of players (those that can run elite difficulty solo and those that can't) will now be split into three groups, or maybe even four groups. thus you take a paper thin population in spread it amongst an even wider set.

[Eth]

That was old blitz. Recent powercreep still hasn't caught up to that.

What? Current high DPS builds put the old blitz to shame.
Especially since you can blitz absolutely everywhere now and keep it running at max stacks constantly.

[Vint]

What players want Elite to be Soloable? Sure there are a few posters here on the forums, but what percentage of the players is it?

You have to look at another type of balance though.

Quick example. You can pick nearly any quest. Let’s say Waterworks. You have group A that has 6 newer or casual players. Group B would be me solo with a million PL’s, all the gear, and all the quest knowledge. Group A is finally getting into the dungeon getting picked off one by one as the group is attacking everything but the shamans in the distance. The group wants to push on, but they are wasting resources and cannot seem to get ahead. Group B on the other hand has taken out the shamans first, used my “twinked out” gear, and cruise through part 1 in 5 minutes. Even if there were 5 other accounts in the dungeon with me (scaling), group B would still have completed a lot quicker.

This was a cake walk for group B, so what should Turbine do? For so long Turbine has making this game easier so that group A can complete and this obviously makes it easier for a soloer or an experienced person if the game in general is dumbed down.

I am not making excuses of why people solo or why they want to solo elite, but the problem is EVERYONE wants the best rewards, so they want to run elite. It is hard to balance a game when EVERYONE, (even people that can barely run hard) demand that elite difficulty be accessible by everyone.

[Xenich]

The problem is that the game gives way to many incentives to play elite and, until very recently, to only play elite. The way things are set up, elite is pretty obviously the expected difficulty to play as all those other options are poor options relative to elite.

Expected? Expected how? As it gives better exp, better loot? Is that an expectation or is that a reward for the increased difficulty of the setting? If you are saying that the rewards don't match the difficulty, then how is that so and how can it be made appropriate to delineate between that of the lower difficulties and that of elite. If your argument is that "all the good stuff is in the harder difficulties", well.. My response is simply "Duh!".

[MaeveTuohy]

I did not complain. I mentioned grinding and its affect. The affect is factual. I gave no personal view of it. Grinding in any game is boring, repetitive and cannot hold a player's interest for long.

Don't split hairs. You provided a list of how the game could be improved. Ergo the things that need improving are not good enough. You stated clearly in point 7, "Reduce the grind ... Grinding is boring." This is you complaining about an aspect of the game (and then suggesting a solution).

There was nothing factual in your list - everything you put forward was your opinion. Most of them I agreed with, but they were still all opinions. You can have them, we all do, but don't present them as facts, it does you no credit.

"Grinding in any game ..." again, your opinion only. One person's grind is another persons entertainment. This game is 10 years old and grinding has always been a part of it, just as with most other MMOs. And you don't have to grind in DDO. You can play without trying to find all the items or ingredients necessary to craft something; you don't have to play with that rare named item. Doing so is a choice. I know a player who doesn't have GS items because he doesn't wan to have to run The Shroud so many times; I also know players who have many, many GS items and have run the quest over one hundred times. Each has made their choice and all enjoy the game.

[Xenich]

Me, I'm going to do whatever is the most fun as long as it offers some sort of reward. Mostly because I realize that having fun is the basic reason I play at all.


Fun is subjective, meaningless and without any purpose in a discussion such as this. Your fun is not my fun, nor the fun of the next guy or the guy next to him. Fun is irrelevant in that purpose.




That said, your premise, taken to the extreme, is how we ended up where we are. They put so much reward on playing the highest difficulty that virtually all other difficulties look pointless in comparison, even after they have backed some of that down. This is what happens when the devs start caring to much about what the players are running and worrying about them playing up to their standards. In other words, when the devs forget what they are being paid to do and start thinking competitively.


So your complaint is that they gave too good of rewards to the elite content over that of the lower content. Maybe you can help me as well as others understand what would have been an appropriate balance of rewards between the difficulties. That is, first show us where the rewards were imbalanced. Then, explain how you would have balanced them between the difficulties to achieve the result you deem acceptable. It makes it so much easier to understand when you put a value to how much more a person should be rewarded for their effort.





Their job is to try to make a game that people enjoy playing on their own, those players, terms, not those devs terms. Forget that and start disproportionately rewarding the highest level of performance in a effort to get players to see things your way and you'll just be leaving the game a mess for your replacements to clean up.

Their job is to offer a product of a given concept and purpose. The job of the consumer is to either accept that or move on. Their job is not to cater to every persons subjective fantasies as to how they should individually be satisfied. It is the goal of attending to ALL player types, sizes, and desires that has led to a market of MMOs that are designed for the lowest common denominator. This is why they are failing. It is basic common sense that you can not go multiple directions at once, that your can not please everyone at the same time.

[Certon]

You use item drops to allow for a wide range of difficulty.

Basically, you make some items only drop on the hardest difficulty, and you make them BTA.

You create parallel economies, so that there are two forms of currency, and allow only the kind of currency obtainable on the highest difficulties to be used to buy better services and goods from vendors. AND you make this currency also BTA.

[Silverleafeon]

Before Armor Up
People told me I needed 6 monk for my fighter, 6 monk for my archer, 3 monk for my favored soul, 2 monk for my druid, etc..

Cries of nerf monk filed in the forums...

[slarden]

Before Armor Up
People told me I needed 6 monk for my fighter, 6 monk for my archer, 3 monk for my favored soul, 2 monk for my druid, etc..

Cries of nerf monk filed in the forums...

After armor up they are saying they need heavy armor with shadowguardian, 3 fighter, 4 fighter, 3 pal or 4 pal.

And you still need 6 monk for your archer and 2 monk for a druid is still useful for the feats.

[redoubt]

It sounds like a popular method to increase difficulty without angering the masses is the possible Reaper difficulty setting. The theory being that you are adding something. Everyone can still run elite if they want to or run on Reaper for increased challenge.

The biggest obstacle to actually having multiple difficulty levels is the relative rewards of the difficulty levels themselves. People want to run elite and run it fast for max xp, renown and loot. Any ideas on how to combat this? In the OP I put up a couple things that might lessen the need to run elite, but even I am not sure that would be enough.

In epics, people talk about running EH or even EN as the best XP/min and only doing EE if they need the favor. What if heroic normal and hard were better xp/min than heroic elite? Or at least equal? For example, if hard took 20% longer, but gave 20% more xp and elite took 40% longer and gave 40% more xp. This would remove xp as the reason to run elite, but more renown would still be a reward. People on the TR train are frequently XP focused with renown as secondary. Would this help? (I know that in most heroics, the difficulty level has less than a 10% time difference for me in most of the content, but the xp more than double.)

On the flip side, I recognize that increasing the difficulty enough that the time requirement to get the xp averaged out, would be an overall nerf and cause people to level slower. This is not really what I want to promote either, but more of a possible primer for thoughts on the issue.

[Gremmlynn]

Expected? Expected how? As it gives better exp, better loot? Is that an expectation or is that a reward for the increased difficulty of the setting? If you are saying that the rewards don't match the difficulty, then how is that so and how can it be made appropriate to delineate between that of the lower difficulties and that of elite. If your argument is that "all the good stuff is in the harder difficulties", well.. My response is simply "Duh!".If all the good stuff is in the harder difficulties, why does the game even have any other difficulties? I mean duh, why play at all if all one is only playing for is the bad stuff?

I really don't get why anyone thinks Turbine should even care how well people play or whether they are earning their rewards. To me is simple, everyone wants rewards and Turbine wants everyone to play, ergo everyone gets rewards.

[Chai]

That said, your premise, taken to the extreme, is how we ended up where we are. They put so much reward on playing the highest difficulty that virtually all other difficulties look pointless in comparison, even after they have backed some of that down. This is what happens when the devs start caring to much about what the players are running and worrying about them playing up to their standards. In other words, when the devs forget what they are being paid to do and start thinking competitively.

If 25% base XP is a must have that stands in the way of someone who cannot yet complete elite difficulty from playing hard and enjoying themselves while doing so, then this community has more issues than I even thought it did.

This thing you are continuing to attempt on blaming the devs fully on, is mostly a community issue. The one major dev fault is they let it stand for too long, allowing elite-as-default-setting to become the status quo, which is where the entitlement issues begin to set in.

Above and beyond that this is not a dev issue. The devs were not worried about players playing up to "their standards". Its quite the contrary actually. The devs created and maintain a 4 difficulty setting game which allows the player to choose their own standard to play by.

[Pnumbra]

Don't split hairs. You provided a list of how the game could be improved. Ergo the things that need improving are not good enough. You stated clearly in point 7, "Reduce the grind ... Grinding is boring." This is you complaining about an aspect of the game (and then suggesting a solution).

There was nothing factual in your list - everything you put forward was your opinion. Most of them I agreed with, but they were still all opinions. You can have them, we all do, but don't present them as facts, it does you no credit.

"Grinding in any game ..." again, your opinion only. One person's grind is another persons entertainment. This game is 10 years old and grinding has always been a part of it, just as with most other MMOs. And you don't have to grind in DDO. You can play without trying to find all the items or ingredients necessary to craft something; you don't have to play with that rare named item. Doing so is a choice. I know a player who doesn't have GS items because he doesn't wan to have to run The Shroud so many times; I also know players who have many, many GS items and have run the quest over one hundred times. Each has made their choice and all enjoy the game.

I'm not splitting hairs. Point 7 is not a complaint, it is an observation. Now if I said, I am tired of the grind and want you to fix it, that is a complaint. I would be voicing a dislike. Connotation is everything, my point states an observation, nothing more. Now, I ask you, reading the multitude of threads, can you say that the forum population is a fan of grinding?

You keep calling basic functions of the game, a choice - how relative. Playing is a choice. You are not making a point. The design of the game requires many choices about many things. Such that it's a universal point, thus mute. But you do have a axe to grind about the subject of grinding, and it purpose and affect in the game.

Based on my observation of the task, I suggest less of it, and more substantive content and storyline interaction to draw players deeper into the rich environment of DDO.

...Once they address point #1.

[Balrogbane1]

If all good stuff comes from difficult quests the problem gets compounded.

You have the elitists who do those quests and demand the entire game become more difficult to make it a challenge. Then you have those who do not have the good equipment and have to slug through a more difficult game.

It seems to me that the best way out of this is to have a two tier difficulty game. F2p stuff stays the same old way while P2p gets the difficulty boost, especially the quests that drop the super weapons that should always bind to character on acquire.

[diasho2]

Make it harder, no don't, add an new difficulty, no make elite harder and make other run lower settings....around and around we go. These threads could give a sane person whiplash, not that have any claim on sanity. According to my wife and kids that went years ago.

However, this thread poses the question what would it take to make those that currently oppose making the game harder to stop doing so.

Based on what I have seen in this and many similar threads the reason most current oppose making the game more difficult for one of the following reasons.

1. Better loot/better chances at top end loot
2. Better xp (streak/first time)
3. Turbine points

Making elite more difficult would not change any these problems and would drive many from the game. These problems have come from the direction Turbine/WB has taken the game over time changing it at this point is not going to happen. Sorry. To those of you who say we have 4 settings tell people to run lower settings without major changes to the game culture this is not going to happen.

Adding a new difficulty that is massively difficult would work if it did not add new goodies for the higher difficulty.

1. If the new mode made it more likely that mythic items/ highly sought after seals/ ultra-rare named drops etc that will become the new default for named farming and people will whine it is too hard. Solution: Make new elite and /reaper/demigod drop chances the same.

2. XP, if there becomes a new streak bonus this will be a problem. Solution make streak bonus the same for elite/reaper/demigod This does not mean that there could not be more xp but no difference in streak bonus.

3. TP rewards are important to a fair part of the population. To these players if a new setting ment more tp these players would feel the need to run the new setting at least once per life for the tp. Solution: No more TP for the new setting.

While this would suck in players would do much more work for reward nearly the same as a standard elite run, more named enemies more champs so more of the oh so important golden candy they drop, this solution would not give anyone a reason to oppose it on the basis that it stops them from playing the way they want to or that it would make the new difficulty the new default.

[legendkilleroll]

You have the elitists who do those quests and demand the entire game become more difficult to make it a challenge. Then you have those who do not have the good equipment and have to slug through a more difficult game.



No

Im not an elitist and even people who are arnt asking for entire game, just the hardest difficulty to be that, hard.

People who dont have the best stuff can run thru the difficulty they are capable of until they are ready for the next.

To me thats the whole point of having different difficulties, yet so many people on here dont understand and just want to be doing the top one without gear, without PL and without being challenged

[Gremmlynn]

So your complaint is that they gave too good of rewards to the elite content over that of the lower content. Maybe you can help me as well as others understand what would have been an appropriate balance of rewards between the difficulties. That is, first show us where the rewards were imbalanced. Then, explain how you would have balanced them between the difficulties to achieve the result you deem acceptable. It makes it so much easier to understand when you put a value to how much more a person should be rewarded for their effort.I would start with favor, as that something that can only be had from doing harder difficulties. Make it additive up to a max of what elite gives.

First time xp used to be about right, with +25% for hard, +50% for elite. With the bravery changes this was upped to +40%/75% and +80%/150%. This just tells everyone to do elite, always, or don't bother. At least they have added a mechanic to get around the always part.

The level based items that they have since reverted from are another example. Higher drop rates are a much better way to go.

As long as difficulties below elite compare so poorly, elite going to be the default setting. It either gets made accessible to most players or the game will lose those players.

[Silverleafeon]

Remember Civillizations "demi-god" difficulty?

Super rough for the challenge.
Far beyond what most players would ever need.

[Qhualor]

No

Im not an elitist and even people who are arnt asking for entire game, just the hardest difficulty to be that, hard.

People who dont have the best stuff can run thru the difficulty they are capable of until they are ready for the next.

To me thats the whole point of having different difficulties, yet so many people on here dont understand and just want to be doing the top one without gear, without PL and without being challenged

there was a time many moons ago when people right here on the forums and in game would highly suggest getting better at the game and getting better geared before running higher difficulties. of course back then people were talking about going from normal to hard. how times have changed.

[Balrogbane1]

No

Im not an elitist and even people who are arnt asking for entire game, just the hardest difficulty to be that, hard.

People who dont have the best stuff can run thru the difficulty they are capable of until they are ready for the next.

To me thats the whole point of having different difficulties, yet so many people on here dont understand and just want to be doing the top one without gear, without PL and without being challenged

You want a more difficult game? Try soloing as a cleric who only uses a board and mace and only the kind you find in the treasure chests you find in that life. Don't use your great equipment. Don't play op splash builds or op classes like Warlocks and Paladins.

Just because you can pay for power and optimize a super character by way of TR or equipment you picked up with other toons does not mean the game is too easy. It just means it is too easy for those who pay for power and collect super powerful p2p equipment.

[Riddle_of_Steel]

Frankly I think the simplest solution would be to eliminate bravery bonus (adjusting XP to compensate of course) and then make the "carrot" for elite running a higher drop rate for named loot.

I would make the drop rate increase by 50% for each difficulty level.

As an example let's say we have the new Shiny of Awesome that everyone wants we could have drop rates look something like

0.0200% -> Casual
0.0300% -> Normal
0.0450% -> Hard
0.0675% -> Elite

The game remains accessible to anyone as even on Casual they have a chance for the item (Though I would honestly argue that casual shouldn't have any chance at named loot but I digress). The harder the difficulty the "less often" you need to run the content to pull the item you want but it is still reasonably accessible even on Hard which is a difficulty I think that even new players can usually manage.

At this point you can certainly adjust difficulties around a little and make elite difficult. And it allows you to choose your difficulty based on what you are looking for.

XP per minute .. likely Hard.
Loot or Favor ... Elite
Learning new content ... How about Normal, even casual

At any rate I don't see any other way out they have painted themselves into a corner and just making it harder to be harder will have the players out crying like babies again in no time ... see Champions for that drama.

Doing this, mainly dumping the streak, would eliminate the perceived need to run everything on the hardest difficulty to play the game. It also might entice those vets who would be interested in grouping to go ahead and join the odd normal or hard run on a quest. They'll have no penalties applied for doing so (loss of streak), no inconvenience (running off to pause and unpause streaks) and still get a shot at the loot they are looking for anyway.

[Balrogbane1]

At any rate I don't see any other way out they have painted themselves into a corner and just making it harder to be harder will have the players out crying like babies again in no time ... see Champions for that drama.



What do you get for a Champion? Oh yeah a **** chest and yellow things that take up room in your pack. I'd rather have 2k xp each time one drops. Add champions and give me something that I could care less about, that's a real lose lose.

[Gremmlynn]

If 25% base XP is a must have that stands in the way of someone who cannot yet complete elite difficulty from playing hard and enjoying themselves while doing so, then this community has more issues than I even thought it did.

This thing you are continuing to attempt on blaming the devs fully on, is mostly a community issue. The one major dev fault is they let it stand for too long, allowing elite-as-default-setting to become the status quo, which is where the entitlement issues begin to set in.

Above and beyond that this is not a dev issue. The devs were not worried about players playing up to "their standards". Its quite the contrary actually. The devs created and maintain a 4 difficulty setting game which allows the player to choose their own standard to play by.You seem to be missing my point, as shown by your comment "cannot yet complete elite. IMO, ever completing elite shouldn't be an expectation. Which is why I place the blame on the devs, since it clearly is in their minds. One should be able to find the game feel worth their while to play regardless of if they never play beyond normal, or if they feel the need to face bigger challenges.

The "community issue" wouldn't exist if the rewards for elite weren't so much better as to make playing any other difficulty a waste of time in comparison. As for entitlement issues. Hey we are the one's paying for the game, we should be able to decide what we find worth paying for. So what's wrong with feeling entitled to having our expectations met from what we are paying for?

[legendkilleroll]

You want a more difficult game? Try soloing as a cleric who only uses a board and mace and only the kind you find in the treasure chests you find in that life. Don't use your great equipment. Don't play op splash builds or op classes like Warlocks and Paladins.

Just because you can pay for power and optimize a super character by way of TR or equipment you picked up with other toons does not mean the game is too easy. It just means it is too easy for those who pay for power and collect super powerful p2p equipment.

Dont give me that stupid reason, purposely making yourself weaker to make game harder is something i hear too often on here and its ridiculous.

Dont play OP? you mean like half of the classes after what they did to them with the revamps to please people like yourself.

The last time i payed real money was shadowfell expansion

Anyone can TR/ER, anyone can colelct good gear, its practically given away in epic necro. People collect PL and gear so they can play on the hardest setting yet atm half of its not needed. If the game isnt easy for you, run hard.

[legendkilleroll]

The "community issue" wouldn't exist if the rewards for elite weren't so much better as to make playing any other difficulty a waste of time in comparison. As for entitlement issues. Hey we are the one's paying for the game, we should be able to decide what we find worth paying for. So what's wrong with feeling entitled to having our expectations met from what we are paying for?

How is it a waste of time, if your not up to the standards of the top level you shouldnt be in there. Plenty of XP for 1st lifers even when not doing elite

Do people really expect to just breeze thru the hardest difficulty? because you pay you should just have all the best stuff without even trying?

[Balrogbane1]

Dont give me that stupid reason, purposely making yourself weaker to make game harder is something i hear too often on here and its ridiculous.

Dont play OP? you mean like half of the classes after what they did to them with the revamps to please people like yourself.

The last time i payed real money was shadowfell expansion

Anyone can TR/ER, anyone can colelct good gear, its practically given away in epic necro. People collect PL and gear so they can play on the hardest setting yet atm half of its not needed. If the game isnt easy for you, run hard.

People like myself? I have no problem with the classes, ever. Where did I say that no part of the game should be made more difficult? I suggested that the f2p stuff stay as is and buff the p2p stuff. Why should new players suffer with old weak equipment playing content designed for elitists?

I have a completionist with over 20 lives and solo much of the content on elite at level.

But I have started new toons on other servers and know it is more difficult with a clean slate.

[Qhualor]

Frankly I think the simplest solution would be to eliminate bravery bonus (adjusting XP to compensate of course) and then make the "carrot" for elite running a higher drop rate for named loot.

I would make the drop rate increase by 50% for each difficulty level.

As an example let's say we have the new Shiny of Awesome that everyone wants we could have drop rates look something like

0.0200% -> Casual
0.0300% -> Normal
0.0450% -> Hard
0.0675% -> Elite

The game remains accessible to anyone as even on Casual they have a chance for the item (Though I would honestly argue that casual shouldn't have any chance at named loot but I digress). The harder the difficulty the "less often" you need to run the content to pull the item you want but it is still reasonably accessible even on Hard which is a difficulty I think that even new players can usually manage.

At this point you can certainly adjust difficulties around a little and make elite difficult. And it allows you to choose your difficulty based on what you are looking for.

XP per minute .. likely Hard.
Loot or Favor ... Elite
Learning new content ... How about Normal, even casual

At any rate I don't see any other way out they have painted themselves into a corner and just making it harder to be harder will have the players out crying like babies again in no time ... see Champions for that drama.

Doing this, mainly dumping the streak, would eliminate the perceived need to run everything on the hardest difficulty to play the game. It also might entice those vets who would be interested in grouping to go ahead and join the odd normal or hard run on a quest. They'll have no penalties applied for doing so (loss of streak), no inconvenience (running off to pause and unpause streaks) and still get a shot at the loot they are looking for anyway.

this is too simplistic, but I don't fault you for suggesting it. its a common suggestion by a lot of players. the problem with it is that drop rates are not all created equal.

[Qhualor]

People like myself? I have no problem with the classes, ever. Where did I say that no part of the game should be made more difficult? I suggested that the f2p stuff stay as is and buff the p2p stuff. Why should new players suffer with old weak equipment designed for elitists?

I have a completionist with over 20 lives and solo much of the content on elite at level.

that sounds like good incentive to buy the packs or go VIP. wanting better loot was one of the biggest reasons why after 3 months of F2P I went VIP.

[Balrogbane1]

that sounds like good incentive to buy the packs or go VIP. wanting better loot was one of the biggest reasons why after 3 months of F2P I went VIP.

I just bought TP and bought the content. I think I've sunk about $100, certainly not more than $150 into the game over the years. I think it is a much better way to go.

[Xenich]

If all the good stuff is in the harder difficulties, why does the game even have any other difficulties? I mean duh, why play at all if all one is only playing for is the bad stuff?

I really don't get why anyone thinks Turbine should even care how well people play or whether they are earning their rewards. To me is simple, everyone wants rewards and Turbine wants everyone to play, ergo everyone gets rewards.

Welcome to risk vs reward. Removing risk makes the reward pointless and is why most games that cater to this mentality are dying.

[slarden]

Adding a new difficulty that is massively difficult would work if it did not add new goodies for the higher difficulty.



I think the loot should be better, but not so much better it trivializes the content. I really like the approach now where they have mythic bonuses and it's difficult to get those below EE. Having the highest mythic dropping on the new nightmare mode would be a good thing. I also like that the highest tier almost never drops below EE, but there is a very very small chance.

For as much as people talk about the old epics being really hard - they were exceptionally easy once people had the right party which often consisted of CC, Healer, Tank and some DPS. Weapons like Epic Sword of Shadow trivialized almost all content and even weapons like Terror (before U14) were great equalizers that allowed anyone to walk into an epic and kill epic trash easily even if they were only doing 20 a hit.

So go ahead and add a new difficulty and we will figure out how to outsmart the AI limits as always and beat it. But don't over-reward the content because I am so sick of hearing the "game is too easy" and almost nobody on the server is willing to even try EH Defiler of the Just. I realize the lag sucks, but lag sucks on EN also -it's just a little less forgiving on EH.

[blerkington]

I'm no programmer, but i'm not able to see the difference between making an entirely new difficulty, and what you are suggesting which is to make hard like elite is now and elite like...what? What would be the difference between whatever they would have to do to make elite harder and simply making a new difficulty? Anything beyond adjustments to the quest panel?

The example you are giving of NWO having to roll back on difficulty changes seems far more likely to happen here if they fiddle with existing difficulties instead of introducing a new one. I've never played NWO do they have difficulty settings? If not, i can see the problem with rolling out new content that was too hard for most of the players to complete. That content is completely inaccessible to them.

Hi,

I suspect adding a new difficulty is more work than tweaking existing difficulties, because of set-up and ongoing maintenance costs. It also bothers me that we have three difficulty settings which are very underused, or so I'm guessing anyway, and adding a new one just seems superfluous.

Perhaps the content doesn't need to be directly tweaked at all. How hard content seems stems from how strong our characters and gear are. If our characters hadn't been made so much stronger by the addition of melee and ranged power, Armour Up, and the ridiculous increases in power through the changes to some classes' enhancements maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion. We could quite easily have had rebalancing through much more cautious buffing and judicious nerfing of the most powerful character abilities, but that's not the path the developers chose. I think it was a huge mistake, and what makes it worse is it was so obvious at the time.

At the time those changes were being made some people were predicting they would erode the game's difficulty and lead to calls later on for content to be rebalanced. But my guess is that nerfing those changes to character power would be even less palatable to many people than making the game harder in the higher difficulty levels or adding a new difficulty level.

The later paragraphs of my last post mentioned that I thought it would be very unpopular to increase the difficulty of elite now that so many people are accustomed to being able to do it relatively easily. So while I think it would have been better game design for elite not to have been watered down in the first place, going back now will be so unpopular it's very hard to see it happening.

In NWO there is only one difficulty setting. The Module 6 changes made things harder for everyone, but not very evenly. Certain builds had it worse than others, but even for the builds better suited to handling the difficulty increase less well geared and/or experienced players were hit quite hard. A lot of people were suddenly unable to do things needed to progress in the game that they could do before and some content became almost unplayable. That caused great community anger and a loss of players. I don't think increasing the difficulty of hard and elite in DDO would be quite as devastating, but it would certainly be similar to some degree.

Thanks.

[Gremmlynn]

How is it a waste of time, if your not up to the standards of the top level you shouldnt be in there. Plenty of XP for 1st lifers even when not doing eliteBut not even close to what elite gives.


Do people really expect to just breeze thru the hardest difficulty? because you pay you should just have all the best stuff without even trying?I don't see that as an unreasonable expectation. But no, I expect them to have less incentive not to expect to do that.

Why do people expect to do the hardest difficulty?
Because the game goes to great lengths to tell them it's what's expected they run by making the rewards for running anything else so comparatively poor.

[Gremmlynn]

Welcome to risk vs reward. Removing risk makes the reward pointless and is why most games that cater to this mentality are dying.Except that what constitutes risk differs from person to person, as does one's tolerance for risk.

[Xenich]

Except that what constitutes risk differs from person to person, as does one's tolerance for risk.

That is true. Some people find difficulty in the most simplistic of tasks. This is why multiple difficulty levels serves a useful purpose. Why is it you think everyone should be forced to the least common denominator?

Look at it this way. People read at many different levels of skill and pursue reading material accordingly. Should all books then be written at the skill level of "Fun with D-i-c-k and Jane" in order to appeal to those who do not wish to improve their skill past such a level?



Why do people expect to do the hardest difficulty?
Because the game goes to great lengths to tell them it's what's expected they run by making the rewards for running anything else so comparatively poor.

Absolutely, it is the same reason why people buy the most expensive item on the menu, why... it has all the trimmings and special sides, obviously it is intended that everyone purchase that item.

When you buy a car, I mean... seriously, it is obvious you are supposed to buy the deluxe package, I mean... look at all the stuff they have in it. Never mind if it actually is what YOU are looking for, why... you are expected.

Wait.. one sec... another commercial is playing, I need to go watch it and do what it expects me to do!

/facepalm

[Chai]

You seem to be missing my point, as shown by your comment "cannot yet complete elite. IMO, ever completing elite shouldn't be an expectation. Which is why I place the blame on the devs, since it clearly is in their minds. One should be able to find the game feel worth their while to play regardless of if they never play beyond normal, or if they feel the need to face bigger challenges.

Nope. Completing elite should be a player expectation. Getting best loot out of highest difficulty should be a player expectation too. Its a logical position that games, including but not limited to MMOs, were founded and grew on. More risk = greater fail chance but also = greater reward.

Refuse to aspire to complete highest difficulty = don't get highest reward.


The "community issue" wouldn't exist if the rewards for elite weren't so much better as to make playing any other difficulty a waste of time in comparison. As for entitlement issues. Hey we are the one's paying for the game, we should be able to decide what we find worth paying for. So what's wrong with feeling entitled to having our expectations met from what we are paying for?

The rewards aren't so much better on elite that someone cant play hard or normal. That's a myth perpetuated on the forums which does not exist in game.

Customers who agree with you don't spend more or less than customers who agree with me, so when you use this word "we" it means all paying customers. Elite as the default difficulty doesn't cater to customers who agree with me, as they have nothing to aspire to. Normal or hard as the default difficulty caters to everyone. Those who do not wish to aspire to more can stay playing normal or hard. Those who do wish to aspire to more have 1-2 difficulties they can expand into.

[Qaliya]

The rewards aren't so much better on elite that someone cant play hard or normal.

The XP is substantially better. And the vast majority of LFMs are for elite. It is understandable that this is what most people want to play.

[diasho2]

If 25% base XP is a must have that stands in the way of someone who cannot yet complete elite difficulty from playing hard and enjoying themselves while doing so, then this community has more issues than I even thought it did.

While xp is part of the issue elite only really matters for xp in heroic. At epic lvls you can get much more xp/min running on norm than on ee so this is a mute point for the xp per min at epic lvl crowd. Heroic streak matters quests are one and done. Its all about the biggest payout in the shortest time and elite/bb/first time does that.

The bigger problem is not the xp reward but the loot reward. I regularly run normal fast xp runs through my daily grind quests. Then there are those I do for saga and loot. Those need to be done on ee it is slower, xp/min is not there however, doing these quests on ee provides top saga reward and/or a better chance at getting the piece of named gear I need.


Above and beyond that this is not a dev issue. The devs were not worried about players playing up to "their standards". Its quite the contrary actually. The devs created and maintain a 4 difficulty setting game which allows the player to choose their own standard to play by.

There was a time in this game we all looked at epic content and knew it would be a challenge. We also had to wait in between epic quests back then and there was only one epic setting. The game, through item and player power creep, through changed game mechanics, and the culture in general has changed the game to the point it never will be a 4 setting game for most players. Face it casual just as well not be there for all it gets used. I think I may have used it a few time or two when I was trying to learn the game years ago. I would be surprised if that setting gets used even once every two months now. This is the direction the game is going like it or not. I go with not but what can you do. I would like to see more challenge but turbine will never add much more difficulty to the current settings. They may add another setting if they can do it without much work and without creating more whining.

In the meantime. if you want more challenge try perma death. make a 28 pt toon (not a warlock) use only gear you pick up to out fit it. Get excited again at getting that +1 weapon of flaming that fits your toon because you finally get to get rid of the **** korthos weapon. See how far you can get before you have to delete your toon and start over because you got killed by a bunch of koblods. You can find a challenge in the game just maybe not on a multi tr/etr toon with every piece of gear and +6/7 stat skill tombs.

I hope turbine does not take a page out of what other games have done to get rid of power creep. I have played other games that have regularly done full or partial player wipes to prevent, or at least reduce power creep. To those that yell to loudly about the game needing to be harder be careful what you wish for. Total or partial pwipe would really suck. It would make things harder but it would suck.

[legendkilleroll]

In the meantime. if you want more challenge try perma death. make a 28 pt toon (not a warlock) use only gear you pick up to out fit it. Get excited again at getting that +1 weapon of flaming that fits your toon because you finally get to get rid of the **** korthos weapon. See how far you can get before you have to delete your toon and start over because you got killed by a bunch of koblods. You can find a challenge in the game just maybe not on a multi tr/etr toon with every piece of gear and +6/7 stat skill tombs.

I hope turbine does not take a page out of what other games have done to get rid of power creep. I have played other games that have regularly done full or partial player wipes to prevent, or at least reduce power creep. To those that yell to loudly about the game needing to be harder be careful what you wish for. Total or partial pwipe would really suck. It would make things harder but it would suck.

Shouldnt have to create our own challenge. We play/grind, some even pay to collect PLs and gear, for what so we can leave it in the bank?

As opposed to no one dying, even on the top difficulty in game?

[morkahn82]

this is too simplistic, but I don't fault you for suggesting it. its a common suggestion by a lot of players. the problem with it is that drop rates are not all created equal.

well, you can multiply the current individual droprate by a factor dependent on the difficulty. just because a suggestion had some flaws doesn't render it useless.

[Qhualor]

well, you can multiply the current individual droprate by a factor dependent on the difficulty. just because a suggestion had some flaws doesn't render it useless.

Didn't say it was useless. I just pointed out a common flaw.

[Xenich]

In the meantime. if you want more challenge try perma death. make a 28 pt toon (not a warlock) use only gear you pick up to out fit it. Get excited again at getting that +1 weapon of flaming that fits your toon because you finally get to get rid of the **** korthos weapon. See how far you can get before you have to delete your toon and start over because you got killed by a bunch of koblods. You can find a challenge in the game just maybe not on a multi tr/etr toon with every piece of gear and +6/7 stat skill tombs.


Why bother? If you have to self handicap yourself by limiting the rules and running the game with imaginary conditions and selective handicaps, it is time to move on. It means the game is completely flawed.



I hope turbine does not take a page out of what other games have done to get rid of power creep. I have played other games that have regularly done full or partial player wipes to prevent, or at least reduce power creep. To those that yell to loudly about the game needing to be harder be careful what you wish for. Total or partial pwipe would really suck. It would make things harder but it would suck.

Wipes? Which games would those be? Turbine or any of the other main companies/games out there would NEVER wipe a production server. It would spell instant death for the game and result in many lawsuits regardless if you think they would be legally justified or not. No company that has half a brain (or any audience of note) would take such an action.

[Chai]

While xp is part of the issue elite only really matters for xp in heroic. At epic lvls you can get much more xp/min running on norm than on ee so this is a mute point for the xp per min at epic lvl crowd. Heroic streak matters quests are one and done. Its all about the biggest payout in the shortest time and elite/bb/first time does that.

The bigger problem is not the xp reward but the loot reward. I regularly run normal fast xp runs through my daily grind quests. Then there are those I do for saga and loot. Those need to be done on ee it is slower, xp/min is not there however, doing these quests on ee provides top saga reward and/or a better chance at getting the piece of named gear I need.

By degree this isn't as important as it used to be in the days when TR first came out and there was one level 15 quest, five level 16 quests and three level 17 quests. I did a hard once and done and a normal once and done TR with no issues, both characters with 2x+ lives.



There was a time in this game we all looked at epic content and knew it would be a challenge. We also had to wait in between epic quests back then and there was only one epic setting. The game, through item and player power creep, through changed game mechanics, and the culture in general has changed the game to the point it never will be a 4 setting game for most players. Face it casual just as well not be there for all it gets used. I think I may have used it a few time or two when I was trying to learn the game years ago. I would be surprised if that setting gets used even once every two months now. This is the direction the game is going like it or not. I go with not but what can you do. I would like to see more challenge but turbine will never add much more difficulty to the current settings. They may add another setting if they can do it without much work and without creating more whining.

In the meantime. if you want more challenge try perma death. make a 28 pt toon (not a warlock) use only gear you pick up to out fit it. Get excited again at getting that +1 weapon of flaming that fits your toon because you finally get to get rid of the **** korthos weapon. See how far you can get before you have to delete your toon and start over because you got killed by a bunch of koblods. You can find a challenge in the game just maybe not on a multi tr/etr toon with every piece of gear and +6/7 stat skill tombs.

Been doing PD in DDO since 2008. Back then it took ~18 months to cap a character, if they made it. Today it takes 2-3 months. Some people get there sooner.

Telling people to nerf themselves to have fun doesn't work for the vast majority of the market audience however. If it did, we'd all be playing PD. MMOs are about killing things and taking their stuff - to use as an upgrade, not to put into the bank because it makes us too powerful. Content balance is on the DM/company, not on the player, to provide.


I hope turbine does not take a page out of what other games have done to get rid of power creep. I have played other games that have regularly done full or partial player wipes to prevent, or at least reduce power creep. To those that yell to loudly about the game needing to be harder be careful what you wish for. Total or partial pwipe would really suck. It would make things harder but it would suck.

Theres a difference between progression and power creep. Progression is where the character power AND content progresses. Power creep is when character power progresses and content stagnates, or does not progress at the same rate as character power. Due to the hamster-wheel-as-endgame TR mechanic leveraging 5-9 year old content, DDO suffered from a lot of the latter.

[BigErkyKid]

Theres a difference between progression and power creep. Progression is where the character power AND content progresses. Power creep is when character power progresses and content stagnates, or does not progress at the same rate as character power. Due to the hamster-wheel-as-endgame TR mechanic leveraging 5-9 year old content, DDO suffered from a lot of the latter.

This. So much power creep because we keep banging against the hard cap of lack of content while we keep getting more power.

If they don't release more content and content that takes longer to beat while keeping power creep via abilities on the low end, the game just degenerates into speed runs.

Which is the only thing left to do in this game.

[Pnumbra]

there was a time many moons ago when people right here on the forums and in game would highly suggest getting better at the game and getting better geared before running higher difficulties. of course back then people were talking about going from normal to hard. how times have changed.

...ergo, this is a mental snare trap we must stop falling into. Many players now are elite by experience. They know the content inside and out, they know what avoid, where the deadly traps are, how to zerg through for the highest XP/min. In a sense they are DDO professionals.

Note, from here on out, I will refer to elite characters as DDO professionals. I find the term elite aggressive and negative in its connotations in DDO. I respect the hard work veteran players have put into the game. So lets acknowledge them and engage this genre of player properly. This also allows us to encapsulate the player base in a more positive way. Each tier of player had its needs. Let's not create dynamics that isolate one from another, but instead create a natural progression in experience, one to another.

Now we are at an impasse, the professionals are hitting a hard stop in their game experience. There is no where to go, no gear to acquire, so what is next? I say a new difficulty is not the answer, but more content at the epic levels with a richer backdrop. Allow elite players to make decisions that affect their experience with NPC. Makes certain choices have impact between one faction and another.

In Asheron's Call, I experience a very nice dynamic, choices had consequences. Certain NPCs became hostile while other became friendly. Favor should then excite or diminish this affect, slightly. Make alignments mean something. Add visually appealing cut-scenes through long quest. Epic characters are in a sense demigods. They can alter their fate and tap into realms of various spheres of powers at will. They challenge the schemes of gods and their powerful agents. They fight dragons!

With that said, adding another difficulty will just kick the can down the road. The same issues will arise in short order, as will the same complaints and observations. Doing the same thing and getting the same result is...

Simple Test of Change Methodology:
1. Finish the favor reward system. Most professionals have maxed out favor and have received nothing for it.
2. Improve the loot profile system with subtle changes to it.

The current loot system is nothing more than a way to gain plats. We sell everything. Why even have it? Just give us components/crafting material instead. Who wears loot generated gear in the 20+ range?

How about adding Remnants to end chest pulls and quest difficulty?
Quest Difficulty: Solo = 1, Normal = 2, Hard = 3, Elite = 6

It would still take a good amount of time questing to earn 10K. Then make champions drop 10-100 depending on level of quest champion.

You can also add remnants to favor rewards. Each level of achievement gives (x) remnants from the house/organization.

These are two thing that can be done in short order while the Devs work on creating really meaningful content for the epic levels. Why just epic levels? We have an abundant amount of heroic level content. No shortage there, and heroic adventuring is not endgame material.

[Xenich]

This. So much power creep because we keep banging against the hard cap of lack of content while we keep getting more power.

If they don't release more content and content that takes longer to beat while keeping power creep via abilities on the low end, the game just degenerates into speed runs.

Which is the only thing left to do in this game.

Here the problem. Longer content is a good means to slow players down. MMOs of old did this with high HP mobs that took time to kill (even trash mobs), difficult content that took mastery to progress, actually "Rare" gear that took weeks (even months) to obtain and extremely long dungeons that took hours and hours to explore. All of those things are hated by mainstream. Notice how DDOs dungeon runs mimic WoW like dungeon runs? The point is put them on fast farm to grind gear and exp over and over. Look at games like WoW, look at their end game model? Notice how everything is a gimmick grind for useless powerful items that have no real use outside of helping the player to increase their speed in grinding the dungeon? The power creep is not an unintended consequence. It is by design. It is cheaper and easier to manage a game system when your content editions are centered around widget farming. Blizzard mastered this art of development in profit making and it is why so many companies copy them. They release content once every 2-3 years, with less content each time, but numerous game system changes that provide massive rewards for extremely long mundane grinds.

[Xenich]

...ergo, this is a mental snare trap we must stop falling into. Many players now are elite by experience. They know the content inside and out, they know what avoid, where the deadly traps are, how to zerg through for the highest XP/min. In a sense they are DDO professionals.

Note, from here on out, I will refer to elite characters as DDO professionals. I find the term elite aggressive and negative in its connotations in DDO. I respect the hard work veteran players have put into the game. So lets acknowledge them and engage this genre of player properly. This also allows us to encapsulate the player base in a more positive way. Each tier of player had its needs. Let's not create dynamics that isolate one from another, but instead create a natural progression in experience, one to another.

Now we are at an impasse, the professionals are hitting a hard stop in their game experience. There is no where to go, no gear to acquire, so what is next? I say a new difficulty is not the answer, but more content at the epic levels with a richer backdrop. Allow elite players to make decisions that affect their experience with NPC. Makes certain choices have impact between one faction and another.

In Asheron's Call, I experience a very nice dynamic, choices had consequences. Certain NPCs became hostile while other became friendly. Favor should then excite or diminish this affect, slightly. Make alignments mean something. Add visually appealing cut-scenes through long quest. Epic characters are in a sense demigods. They can alter their fate and tap into realms of various spheres of powers at will. They challenge the schemes of gods and their powerful agents. They fight dragons!

With that said, adding another difficulty will just kick the can down the road. The same issues will arise in short order, as will the same complaints and observations. Doing the same thing and getting the same result is...

Simple Test of Change Methodology:
1. Finish the favor reward system. Most professionals have maxed out favor and have received nothing for it.
2. Improve the loot profile system with subtle changes to it.

The current loot system is nothing more than a way to gain plats. We sell everything. Why even have it? Just give us components/crafting material instead. Who wears loot generated gear in the 20+ range?

How about adding Remnants to end chest pulls and quest difficulty?
Quest Difficulty: Solo = 1, Normal = 2, Hard = 3, Elite = 6

It would still take a good amount of time questing to earn 10K. Then make champions drop 10-100 depending on level of quest champion.

You can also add remnants to favor rewards. Each level of achievement gives (x) remnants from the house/organization.

These are two thing that can be done in short order while the Devs work on creating really meaningful content for the epic levels. Why just epic levels? We have an abundant amount of heroic level content. No shortage there, and heroic adventuring is not endgame material.

Smedly, Ex CEO of SOE wrote a blog about why MMO games were failing and he blamed a bunch of things that he claimed were at fault. The main problem he said was that people were consuming the content faster than they could produce it. He blamed the internet cheating with maps, guides, etc... Never once did he consider that the content consuming was due to their designs. Early EQ didn't have these problems (Smed wasn't in charge of the first 3 expansions). While there were "some" who consumed the content quickly, it was nothing like it was today and those who did do such were a very small percentage of players (ie single digits). Most players weren't even finished with the previous content by the time new content was released and EQ had a 6 month to 1 year cycle. Even the top percent of raiders took months to finally defeat the raid content. Now contrast that with games today where often the top raids are defeated within the first 72 hours of release.

This isn't because people are better gamers. It isn't because there is a very intelligent and highly skilled player base that came to the market, it is because game systems started to be mainstreamed to fit casual player style. When you make things easier, people go through it faster and so you end up with entire expansions of content being consumed in a few weeks by average players. Smed didn't seem to want to accept that his own design focuses were killing the point of playing a game in the first place. That is, he went away from the goal of making a game as a product and pursued making entertainment as a product. One is concerned with the games objectives, rules, and challenges, while the other is concerned with keeping people entertained. Since many like to "win", well.. it became the hot product to sell. Lots of winning, lots of success, never a fail, why.... even if you fail you really are winning! That is the business model for most games these days and while the devs may want to do otherwise, they are under the constraints of management who cares about the business, and making entertainment for mainstream is where the money is at, not games.

[Chai]

Here the problem. Longer content is a good means to slow players down. MMOs of old did this with high HP mobs that took time to kill (even trash mobs), difficult content that took mastery to progress, actually "Rare" gear that took weeks (even months) to obtain and extremely long dungeons that took hours and hours to explore. All of those things are hated by mainstream. Notice how DDOs dungeon runs mimic WoW like dungeon runs? The point is put them on fast farm to grind gear and exp over and over. Look at games like WoW, look at their end game model? Notice how everything is a gimmick grind for useless powerful items that have no real use outside of helping the player to increase their speed in grinding the dungeon? The power creep is not an unintended consequence. It is by design. It is cheaper and easier to manage a game system when your content editions are centered around widget farming. Blizzard mastered this art of development in profit making and it is why so many companies copy them. They release content once every 2-3 years, with less content each time, but numerous game system changes that provide massive rewards for extremely long mundane grinds.

Yep, I agree...however, this is done because the vast amount of player feedback indicated this is what they wanted. The powerful items do have a purpose, which is to enable the players who have them to progress to the next tier when it is released. The gear progressed, but so did the content. That's the difference between a progression raiding MMO and DDO. Here the endgame is grinding the old content repeatedly, getting equally useless power tacked on which allows the same thing - slightly easier grinding of the same content, again. While I don't believe DDO should be turned into a progression raiding MMO, I do believe that some degree of that could be included which progresses the content as character power progresses, so that we don't end up with the same situation in epics that we did in heroics (which I have noticed is already starting to happen).

[Chai]

Smedly, Ex CEO of SOE wrote a blog about why MMO games were failing and he blamed a bunch of things that he claimed were at fault. The main problem he said was that people were consuming the content faster than they could produce it. He blamed the internet cheating with maps, guides, etc... Never once did he consider that the content consuming was due to their designs. Early EQ didn't have these problems (Smed wasn't in charge of the first 3 expansions). While there were "some" who consumed the content quickly, it was nothing like it was today and those who did do such were a very small percentage of players (ie single digits). Most players weren't even finished with the previous content by the time new content was released and EQ had a 6 month to 1 year cycle. Even the top percent of raiders took months to finally defeat the raid content. Now contrast that with games today where often the top raids are defeated within the first 72 hours of release.

This isn't because people are better gamers. It isn't because there is a very intelligent and highly skilled player base that came to the market, it is because game systems started to be mainstreamed to fit casual player style. When you make things easier, people go through it faster and so you end up with entire expansions of content being consumed in a few weeks by average players. Smed didn't seem to want to accept that his own design focuses were killing the point of playing a game in the first place. That is, he went away from the goal of making a game as a product and pursued making entertainment as a product. One is concerned with the games objectives, rules, and challenges, while the other is concerned with keeping people entertained. Since many like to "win", well.. it became the hot product to sell. Lots of winning, lots of success, never a fail, why.... even if you fail you really are winning! That is the business model for most games these days and while the devs may want to do otherwise, they are under the constraints of management who cares about the business, and making entertainment for mainstream is where the money is at, not games.

Yes. There are even still a small percentage of old vanilla Norrath quests that have never been found, or run to completion, 16 years after launch.

I will also add that lack of modern systems forced communication. No auction house (until the nexus was created) meant each server had to decide as a community which zone their "marketplace" existed in, which was nothing more than a bunch of mule characters spamming trade buying and selling. No immediate LFG system meant having to communicate in zone wide chat your desires to join or put a group together.

[blackdoguk]

Here the problem. Longer content is a good means to slow players down. MMOs of old did this with high HP mobs that took time to kill (even trash mobs), difficult content that took mastery to progress, actually "Rare" gear that took weeks (even months) to obtain and extremely long dungeons that took hours and hours to explore. All of those things are hated by mainstream. Notice how DDOs dungeon runs mimic WoW like dungeon runs? The point is put them on fast farm to grind gear and exp over and over. Look at games like WoW, look at their end game model? Notice how everything is a gimmick grind for useless powerful items that have no real use outside of helping the player to increase their speed in grinding the dungeon? The power creep is not an unintended consequence. It is by design. It is cheaper and easier to manage a game system when your content editions are centered around widget farming. Blizzard mastered this art of development in profit making and it is why so many companies copy them. They release content once every 2-3 years, with less content each time, but numerous game system changes that provide massive rewards for extremely long mundane grinds.

Nice posts, certainly as regards Smed's blog and your criticism of MMO design. I'd agree in the main part with what you say about short repeatable content that doesn't require progression and itemisation to complete, only to speed up. I'd say this applies to most DDO raids with the exception of the Shroud when, at release, a lot of people needed to farm our min2s/lit2s to make themselves viable, as opposed to competitive. Hopefully the devs can repeat this design decision. I'd be overjoyed if I had to work with guildies for a month at a time to finish items and dr beaters in eShroud, even if it meant we didn't get a completion for a month.

[Xenich]

I don´t have any confidence left. Every game that started marketing with a "hardcore" or "old school" approach shifted midway (e.g. Star Citizen or Shroud of the Avatar "but of cause we will protect you from those evil pvp people") or was just released as a very bad game (clunky Wildstar). I am somewhat interested in Crowfall, even though the game system does not really appeal to me, just because of their approach to gaming. But I am rather certain they will shift focus soon enough, just like every game I took interest in recently. I guess games reflect society, and we now live in one that views achievers and people who want to be good at something suspiciously, a society that forbids scores in sports so no kids have their feelings hurt will worship mediocrity on every level.

Well, I would argue that most of those were obvious from the get go. SC was an easy mark due to its selling out with the RMT ****, then again I was never greatly interested in their hosted persistent world part as I planned more to host my own server, tweak my own rule sets the way I wanted. As for SoA, saw that one coming a mile away. It was going to end badly from the start. Wildstar was also an obvious one. Their only "old school" approach was group and raid content. The rest of the game was a fed-ex running game for casuals. Last game I was really disappointed in was Rift. It started out with a difficultly system similar to DDO and its character development system was actually interesting and complex enough to actually allow for experimentation. Though that lasted all of a bit before they dumbed down the dungeons due to the very same type of people here who complain about others getting better rewards for doing harder content. As for Crowfall, you are going to be massively disappointed. It won't end like you want it to. Like most attempts of PvP games, it will end with much anger and gnashing of teeth.

I am with you though, I really have no trust in the industry at all. They have all sold out to casuals. That said, I am watching pantheon. EQ was a great game, I still play P1999 or private servers from time to time. Vanguard, even with all of its bugs, its issues, its poor release, SoE killing it with FTP, etc... it puts most MMOs to shame. Both of those games followed Brads Vision(tm), so if Pantheon is even remotely able to achieve a piece of that vision again, the game will be enough for me to enjoy. I mean, I do enjoy this game form time to time and this game is one big steaming pile of FTP PTW casual serving garbage, but... it still retains enough of the past to carry me with nostalgia and basic interest. That is a darn sight more than anything else out there provides.

[Knobull]

1. Bring back the under level bonus.

I'll take "Bring back the under level bonus" for $200 under "Obvious Improvements", Alex.

But seriously, 9 pages later and not another mention of the phrase? Also, about that "Bring back" part, I don't really remember it being there? I have always played like there was though, and it would be nice if running under level was rewarded. (In my view it should be a bigger XP bonus than any other, though it can be argued that higher level quests are usually worth more XP, so the bonus can be considered built-in, though I'm not sure if it is consistent.)

[HAL]

Welcome to risk vs reward. Removing risk makes the reward pointless and is why most games that cater to this mentality are dying.

I completely disagree with this statement.

First, people LOVE reward without risk. They love reward without even trying! Ever heard of the lottery? I know we're talking about a game here but there's a reason why so many MMOs have a daily free item or something similar.

I mean are you seriously saying that getting stuff too easily is why any game is dying? No, games die because of age. From the time a game starts, it is a constant battle to attract or retain players from going to other games that are newer and shinier than yours.

Honestly this argument that what people really want is a serious challenge doesn't really hold water. If a significant portion of the MMO market really wanted a seriously difficult game, there would be more seriously difficult games.

[HAL]

Why bother? If you have to self handicap yourself by limiting the rules and running the game with imaginary conditions and selective handicaps, it is time to move on. It means the game is completely flawed.

Or it could be that you like certain aspects of the game that aren't available in any other game but you would like to make it more difficult.

People have been challenging themselves since humans were capable of thinking and had the leisure to do it. (Maybe even longer - I've seen animals who seem to challenge themselves.)

We go places and do things that we don't need to just because we want the challenge. It happens both mentally and physically.

People have been doing naked runs and permadeath since there have been RPGs.

[Vellrad]

If we bring back underlevel, nothing will really change, people will want to run quests as low as possible to enter, and will whine when they wipe over and over, and will demand nerfs.
Just like elite BB.

[Xenich]

I completely disagree with this statement.

First, people LOVE reward without risk. They love reward without even trying! Ever heard of the lottery? I know we're talking about a game here but there's a reason why so many MMOs have a daily free item or something similar.

I mean are you seriously saying that getting stuff too easily is why any game is dying? No, games die because of age. From the time a game starts, it is a constant battle to attract or retain players from going to other games that are newer and shinier than yours.

Honestly this argument that what people really want is a serious challenge doesn't really hold water. If a significant portion of the MMO market really wanted a seriously difficult game, there would be more seriously difficult games.

There is the old saying "Nothing worth having is ever easy". I could spend several paragraphs attempting to explain the value of effort and reward, but the fact is, you should already know or at least understand the concept. That means that any discussion on this specific point will likely be lost in pointless banter. If you don't get it now, you likely never will.

[Qaliya]

There is the old saying "Nothing worth having is ever easy". I could spend several paragraphs attempting to explain the value of effort and reward, but the fact is, you should already know or at least understand the concept. That means that any discussion on this specific point will likely be lost in pointless banter. If you don't get it now, you likely never will.

He's saying that many people claim to want a challenge and greater rewards that come with the challenge, when what they really want is the reward, and if they can get it without challenge, that's what they will go for. He's not necessarily saying he agrees with this, just recognizing it for what it is.

And he's right. People like to TALK about wanting things to be difficult, but like water, they usually take the path of least resistance. In fact, that's the entire basis of items like Otto's boxes.

I personally would love to see elite made difficult enough again that only the truly exceptional can solo most quests. I'm tired of joining groups and one person acts like he is late to catch a bus and all I end up doing is chasing after him rather than actually playing. Often not even the group leader.

[Xenich]

Or it could be that you like certain aspects of the game that aren't available in any other game but you would like to make it more difficult.

People have been challenging themselves since humans were capable of thinking and had the leisure to do it. (Maybe even longer - I've seen animals who seem to challenge themselves.)

We go places and do things that we don't need to just because we want the challenge. It happens both mentally and physically.

People have been doing naked runs and permadeath since there have been RPGs.

I see no point in paying money to a company to play their game only to forgo the rules and design. I see such behavior as absurd. As some pointed out, playing the game to obtain items only to not use those items because they reduce challenge is an absurd requirement. Either the game offers such challenge by its design or it does not.

[Xenich]

He's saying that many people claim to want a challenge and greater rewards that come with the challenge, when what they really want is the reward, and if they can get it without challenge, that's what they will go for. He's not necessarily saying he agrees with this, just recognizing it for what it is.

And he's right. People like to TALK about wanting things to be difficult, but like water, they usually take the path of least resistance. In fact, that's the entire basis of items like Otto's boxes.

Oh I don't deny this. Thing is, those same people who get easy rewards all the time? Watch them closely. They constantly complain, are always bored. I went back to WoW to see how it has progressed a few years ago. The game is designed for the lowest common denominator. It is so incredibly easy that there really is no point in playing. The rewards flow like water and are obtained through "easy" tasks, yet... the chat is filled with whining and complaining about being bored. People have numerous alts maxed and geared, some even doing such on multiple servers. I know one of them a little more personally and have listened to them talk about the game. It is constant complaining about the game and how they are bored.

This is why they game hop (and why companies needed to move to FTP). These people won't pay a per month sub because they get bored to easy and come and go too often. They see a sub as a waste of money, yet... they value spending enormous amounts in short intervals for immediate satisfaction in the RMT store. I have seen people complain about 15 bucks a month, but then spend over 300 in a single month in the store. The models had to change to fit these behaviors. That said, these people are not satisfied, that is why they continue to get bored so often.

That was my point to the poster who quoted me, not that many want easy rewards.

[Qaliya]

Got it. Yes, it's a vicious circle.

Where I don't think we agree is where the blame resides. I think the problem is with the players themselves, not the companies. The reason the games are easy is because that's what players want.

The companies are not dumb, they do research and surveys and they find out the reasons why people quit games. And they design the games to cater to players to make money.

I saw an ad the other day for an automated, robotic BBQ grill cleaner. What? I mean, this is a task that takes 30 seconds at most with a $7 tool, but someone built a $100 robot for it (that doesn't even work well, based on reviews). Why? Because people are lazy.

The airwaves and Internet are filled with "get rich quick" schemes and "lose weight without dieting or exercise" offers and similar nonsense.

This is the society we live in, unfortunately. The gaming world is not immune, in fact, there are likely a much higher percentage of lazy gamers than non-gamers. So this is where we end up.

[Xenich]

Got it. Yes, it's a vicious circle.

Where I don't think we agree is where the blame resides. I think the problem is with the players themselves, not the companies. The reason the games are easy is because that's what players want.

The companies are not dumb, they do research and surveys and they find out the reasons why people quit games. And they design the games to cater to players to make money.

I saw an ad the other day for an automated, robotic BBQ grill cleaner. What? I mean, this is a task that takes 30 seconds at most with a $7 tool, but someone built a $100 robot for it (that doesn't even work well, based on reviews). Why? Because people are lazy.

The airwaves and Internet are filled with "get rich quick" schemes and "lose weight without dieting or exercise" offers and similar nonsense.

This is the society we live in, unfortunately. The gaming world is not immune, in fact, there are likely a much higher percentage of lazy gamers than non-gamers. So this is where we end up.


There are two types of players. There are those seeking to play a game and those seeking to be entertained. They have different goals and expectations when it comes to these companies. The former is what the industry catered to, the latter is what they now cater to. When UO, EQ, AO, etc... were released, PC gaming was pretty much a very specific crowd. They were usually comprised of STEM field professionals, computer hobbyists, etc... This is what made up the bulk of the MMO crowd back then. When WoW was released and became popular, it had enough points to attract the mainstream crowd which consisted of console gamers (which tended to be more casual players and differing focus than PC titles) and technology/gaming laymen. The mainstream crowd is concerned about "entertainment", not "gaming". This is why you will often see a mainstreamer dismiss the importance specific detailed game systems or the commonly argued elements of game design. A gamer will argue for limitations and restrictions to their game in order to insure a properly balanced effort/reward system. The mainstreamer argues subjective means such as "their fun". Everything becomes an evaluation of "entertainment", not that of game systems.

The mainstreamer greatly outnumbers the gamers of old. I remember in the early years working as a programmer and having other departments tease me and give me flack about gaming (this was back before the internet was widely used). Then, I watched over the years with games like WoW, these very same people were all of a sudden playing games now, but they didn't play them because they enjoyed "games", they played them because they found it entertaining. They still had the same attitude about gaming, that all the details about systems and objectives, etc... was all nerdy stuff, but they enjoyed the flash of the combat, the spamming of keys and the chasing of the loot carrot.

That is why we have games the way we have today. They are entertainment simulators, nothing more. The goal of their design is not that of a game, but to entertain and since the largest audience cares very little about these gaming system concepts and only desires the result of their reward, that is who is marketed.

Now it isn't a problem that companies offer products of entertainment to the mainstream players. The problem is when large companies started taking over the market. These entertainment industries started buying out the gaming studios making them one single entity (as opposed to the small studio passing off a product to a publisher for just marketing and distribution). Because in business, it is about the bottom line and diversification in product is less profit efficient than a homogenized product. So, this one size fits all mentality was pushed. Even though there is actually a market for profitable smaller niche audience games, this is not how large entertainment industries work. Profit isn't enough. A successful product isn't enough. It must be a massive success and business minds tend to be very shallow and narrow focused. So, the model of WoWs approach was rubber stamped across the market. Games which had unique and interesting systems were changed to fit the mainstream model of WoW. It didn't matter if a game was doing well, Blizzards success was now the bar.

So both it is players and businesses as well. The gamer market was stampeded by the mainstream market (Companies and players) and this is the result.

[Chai]

He's saying that many people claim to want a challenge and greater rewards that come with the challenge, when what they really want is the reward, and if they can get it without challenge, that's what they will go for. He's not necessarily saying he agrees with this, just recognizing it for what it is.

That's the current state of the game. None of the people currently asking for more challenge fall into this group, because the game is already there. They don't need to continually ask for something which already exists.


And he's right. People like to TALK about wanting things to be difficult, but like water, they usually take the path of least resistance. In fact, that's the entire basis of items like Otto's boxes.

These are two different market audience. People who want to play an engaging game and get the reward/work toward the reward, and people who will pay to not have to play the game to but still get the reward. There is some overlap, but not so much.


I personally would love to see elite made difficult enough again that only the truly exceptional can solo most quests. I'm tired of joining groups and one person acts like he is late to catch a bus and all I end up doing is chasing after him rather than actually playing. Often not even the group leader.

Yes. In relation to this, people who don't want to see this bring up new players and how it should be easy enough for them. When its too easy, experienced players being four rooms ahead of everyone else causes the new players to not really experience the quest. Repeated enough this causes a situation where people have completed content 10+ times but still don't know how to run it. If its engaging enough where people are better off working together, people actually progress.

[Qaliya]

That's the current state of the game. None of the people currently asking for more challenge fall into this group, because the game is already there. They don't need to continually ask for something which already exists.


If you're referring to the ability to play PD or whatever, I'm with Xenich on that score. It's fine for those who want to do it, that's their choice. But it's a sign of broken design if, doing the best I can with everything the game gives me, without cheating, I cannot find a viable challenge.

It is definitely sad how many people are in a rush to race through the game as if the destination matters more than the journey. But then that is true of life as well.

[Gremmlynn]

That is true. Some people find difficulty in the most simplistic of tasks. This is why multiple difficulty levels serves a useful purpose. Why is it you think everyone should be forced to the least common denominator?

Look at it this way. People read at many different levels of skill and pursue reading material accordingly. Should all books then be written at the skill level of "Fun with D-i-c-k and Jane" in order to appeal to those who do not wish to improve their skill past such a level?
The problem with all of this is that the game more or less tells us to go big or don't bother. If running normal gives a +25% bonus to a smaller base xp and elite gives a +150% bonus to a larger base, the difference is great enough to make playing normal seem like one is wasting their time. Even back when it was +25% and +50% it wasn't unusual to find players who felt that way.

The same goes for favor, one and done vs going back and running every quest in the game again for favor.

The issue I see with rewarding players this much for excelling is that it discourages everyone else from even playing due to the comparatively smaller rewards. Even if those players agree that harder content should give better rewards they could very well decide that DDO simply isn't the game for them due to this. I also find it likely that it is just this that caused elite to become the default setting playable by anyone in an effort to get out in front of the issue of players being discouraged from playing.

IMO, the whole system is set up to give players the impression that running anything other than elite is discouraged when it should be set up to encourage all levels of play. Maybe you disagree with this premise, which would point out why we see things so differently in the details of the mechanics.

[Gremmlynn]

Wipes? Which games would those be? Turbine or any of the other main companies/games out there would NEVER wipe a production server. It would spell instant death for the game and result in many lawsuits regardless if you think they would be legally justified or not. No company that has half a brain (or any audience of note) would take such an action.Ubisoft did it with the MMO Shadowbane. It revitalized the game.

[Balrogbane1]

Yes. In relation to this, people who don't want to see this bring up new players and how it should be easy enough for them. When its too easy, experienced players being four rooms ahead of everyone else causes the new players to not really experience the quest. Repeated enough this causes a situation where people have completed content 10+ times but still don't know how to run it. If its engaging enough where people are better off working together, people actually progress.

If you want to actually smell the roses, then start a group with "no zerging" in the description.

[Qaliya]

If you want to actually smell the roses, then start a group with "no zerging" in the description.

There's a difference between flower-sniffing and having whoever happens to have the fastest move speed do the entire quest.

And again, often it is someone who joins as the 5th or 6th member who ends up doing this.

Some of us actually want to play the game, not "get it over with".

[Gremmlynn]

I completely disagree with this statement.

First, people LOVE reward without risk. They love reward without even trying! Ever heard of the lottery? I know we're talking about a game here but there's a reason why so many MMOs have a daily free item or something similar.

I mean are you seriously saying that getting stuff too easily is why any game is dying? No, games die because of age. From the time a game starts, it is a constant battle to attract or retain players from going to other games that are newer and shinier than yours.

Honestly this argument that what people really want is a serious challenge doesn't really hold water. If a significant portion of the MMO market really wanted a seriously difficult game, there would be more seriously difficult games.Well put.

[Pnumbra]

Smedly, Ex CEO of SOE wrote a blog about why MMO games were failing and he blamed a bunch of things that he claimed were at fault. The main problem he said was that people were consuming the content faster than they could produce it. He blamed the internet cheating with maps, guides, etc... Never once did he consider that the content consuming was due to their designs. Early EQ didn't have these problems (Smed wasn't in charge of the first 3 expansions). While there were "some" who consumed the content quickly, it was nothing like it was today and those who did do such were a very small percentage of players (ie single digits). Most players weren't even finished with the previous content by the time new content was released and EQ had a 6 month to 1 year cycle. Even the top percent of raiders took months to finally defeat the raid content. Now contrast that with games today where often the top raids are defeated within the first 72 hours of release.

This isn't because people are better gamers. It isn't because there is a very intelligent and highly skilled player base that came to the market, it is because game systems started to be mainstreamed to fit casual player style. When you make things easier, people go through it faster and so you end up with entire expansions of content being consumed in a few weeks by average players. Smed didn't seem to want to accept that his own design focuses were killing the point of playing a game in the first place. That is, he went away from the goal of making a game as a product and pursued making entertainment as a product. One is concerned with the games objectives, rules, and challenges, while the other is concerned with keeping people entertained. Since many like to "win", well.. it became the hot product to sell. Lots of winning, lots of success, never a fail, why.... even if you fail you really are winning! That is the business model for most games these days and while the devs may want to do otherwise, they are under the constraints of management who cares about the business, and making entertainment for mainstream is where the money is at, not games.

Smedly is correct, the business is about entertainment. I want to be entertained.

Since we are not going to get rid of Wiki, punish XP cheaters, introduce expensive game monitoring or discovering some way to alter how fast DDO is assimilated by its player base, this is only informatics. You cannot change a demographic mindset on how to "play games"; these are after all games. So acknowledging Smed's commentary, what can be improved upon? Smed's pointing out of confounding variables only shows designers where their opportunities may arise, and where things are out of their hands. Winning and failing is subjective in these types of games. It is like calling something "Endgame" material - amorphous ideology.

We as players have a part is this tail of two cities. We are greedy - we want what we want, we race to the end and yell - More, and we blame the game for doing what it was designed to do - offer a fun experience stretch out over time.

[Chai]

If you're referring to the ability to play PD or whatever, I'm with Xenich on that score. It's fine for those who want to do it, that's their choice. But it's a sign of broken design if, doing the best I can with everything the game gives me, without cheating, I cannot find a viable challenge.

It is definitely sad how many people are in a rush to race through the game as if the destination matters more than the journey. But then that is true of life as well.

I agree. However, what Im referring to is the ability to play the lowest difficulty setting in the game and get the highest loot reward possible, thus taking the path of least resistance. The position that people who say they want more difficulty only really want more reward and will take the path of least resistance to get that reward is not whats being asked for, because its already the current state of the game.

[Chai]

I completely disagree with this statement.

First, people LOVE reward without risk. They love reward without even trying! Ever heard of the lottery? I know we're talking about a game here but there's a reason why so many MMOs have a daily free item or something similar.

I mean are you seriously saying that getting stuff too easily is why any game is dying? No, games die because of age. From the time a game starts, it is a constant battle to attract or retain players from going to other games that are newer and shinier than yours.

In the short run you are correct. In the long run, yes the game experiences net loss attrition essentially because the market audience can handedly defeat the content much more quickly than the company can develop more content. The new state of MMOs being more interactive entertainment and less gaming, has a market audience who doesn't hang around for the long haul anyhow. While there gamers who played EQ for the entire 16 years it has been out, those who are here for interactive entertainment come and go far more quickly.


Honestly this argument that what people really want is a serious challenge doesn't really hold water. If a significant portion of the MMO market really wanted a seriously difficult game, there would be more seriously difficult games.

I agree with you on the entire market but not on DDO alone. DDO has a significant demographic which is well over the average age of the regular MMO player today. The people asking for more challenge are those who were there in the beginning, when that was the state of MMOs, to have a game worth playing. What the market turned into was more of an interactive entertainment market and less of a gaming market. People want their quick fix, and many are not in it for the long haul anyhow. That doesn't mean DDO isn't full of 40+ year olds who really do want a game that engages them for the long haul. There are more old guard gamers here than in most current MMOs.

[Gremmlynn]

There is the old saying "Nothing worth having is ever easy". I could spend several paragraphs attempting to explain the value of effort and reward, but the fact is, you should already know or at least understand the concept. That means that any discussion on this specific point will likely be lost in pointless banter. If you don't get it now, you likely never will.Nice concept, but it simply isn't a good way to attract players to spend money on a game regardless of how much you would like it to or feel it should.

You seem to be coming off as this is a value the game should be imparting on players or rewarding players for without considering that it might go against the goal of actually getting people to play and spend money on the game. Game companies exist to make money, not to build character or reward players for practicing a superior personal value system.

[Chai]

Nice concept, but it simply isn't a good way to attract players to spend money on entertainment regardless of how much you would like it to or feel it should.

You seem to be coming off as this is a value the game should be imparting on players or rewarding players for without considering that it might go against the goal of actually getting people to play and spend money on the game. Interactive entertainment companies exist to make money, not to build character or reward players for practicing a superior personal value system.

ftfy

There are many game companies who got bought by entertainment companies because it was a labor of love for those who created the game, but because making money wasn't priority one, were absorbed by companies whose priority one is making money, regardless of the integrity level associated with it.

What you are describing is what the industry turned into. Not how it started. The reason you see more complaints about the game being too easy in DDO is because DDO has a sizable demographic of older players, who were around when the gaming industry was about playing quality games, and not about quick fix entertainment.

[Xenich]

ftfy

There are many game companies who got bought by entertainment companies because it was a labor of love for those who created the game, but because making money wasn't priority one, were absorbed by companies whose priority one is making money, regardless of the integrity level associated with it.

What you are describing is what the industry turned into. Not how it started. The reason you see more complaints about the game being too easy in DDO is because DDO has a sizable demographic of older players, who were around when the gaming industry was about playing quality games, and not about quick fix entertainment.

Bingo was his name-o!

[Qhualor]

Nice concept, but it simply isn't a good way to attract players to spend money on a game regardless of how much you would like it to or feel it should.

You seem to be coming off as this is a value the game should be imparting on players or rewarding players for without considering that it might go against the goal of actually getting people to play and spend money on the game. Game companies exist to make money, not to build character or reward players for practicing a superior personal value system.

I think the devs would partially at least disagree with you. Turbine is a business to make money, which is why we see things like store products. the devs are the developers trying to make a time sink game rewarding and fun. they often clash and its common for many people to directly blame and praise them for some of the wrong reasons. I do it myself sometimes too without realizing that some decisions are Turbines, not the devs. they just have to work around the business model. the devs are the ones talking to us, not the suit.

[Hazelnut]

Ubisoft did it with the MMO Shadowbane. It revitalized the game.

I would say that the closure of the game about a year after the wiping of the game servers indicates complete failure of that technique, not revitalization.

[Gremmlynn]

I see no point in paying money to a company to play their game only to forgo the rules and design. I see such behavior as absurd. As some pointed out, playing the game to obtain items only to not use those items because they reduce challenge is an absurd requirement. Either the game offers such challenge by its design or it does not.The thing you don't seem to realize is that you are the outlier (hell most of us here probably are simply due to spending as much time as we do discussing a video game), the game tries to target the mainstream. That's simply something that has to be accepted. Nobodies going to plop down millions of dollars to make a video game based on principals. Hell it could be said that simply by "wasting" time playing these games we are ignoring the very same principals you feel they should be honoring.

[Xenich]

The problem with all of this is that the game more or less tells us to go big or don't bother. If running normal gives a +25% bonus to a smaller base xp and elite gives a +150% bonus to a larger base, the difference is great enough to make playing normal seem like one is wasting their time. Even back when it was +25% and +50% it wasn't unusual to find players who felt that way.

The same goes for favor, one and done vs going back and running every quest in the game again for favor.

The issue I see with rewarding players this much for excelling is that it discourages everyone else from even playing due to the comparatively smaller rewards. Even if those players agree that harder content should give better rewards they could very well decide that DDO simply isn't the game for them due to this. I also find it likely that it is just this that caused elite to become the default setting playable by anyone in an effort to get out in front of the issue of players being discouraged from playing.

IMO, the whole system is set up to give players the impression that running anything other than elite is discouraged when it should be set up to encourage all levels of play. Maybe you disagree with this premise, which would point out why we see things so differently in the details of the mechanics.

I don't deny that is an issue. I think that a developer has to decide from the beginning what audience they are going to appeal to. Mainstream or gamer. You can't please both in the same game as the mainstreamer always "feels" like they deserve to have the same for less effort.



The thing you don't seem to realize is that you are the outlier (hell most of us here probably are simply due to spending as much time as we do discussing a video game), the game tries to target the mainstream. That's simply something that has to be accepted. Nobodies going to plop down millions of dollars to make a video game based on principals. Hell it could be said that simply by "wasting" time playing these games we are ignoring the very same principals you feel they should be honoring.

I never said I was not. Mainstreamers are far greater in number than gamers. I explained this already. That however does not mean a niche game can not be profitable. In fact, Pantheon is being made specifically to address the issues we are discussing. Read their mission statement, what they are doing and who they are doing it for. It isn't for mainstream.

[Gremmlynn]

These are two different market audience. People who want to play an engaging game and get the reward/work toward the reward, and people who will pay to not have to play the game to but still get the reward. There is some overlap, but not so much. You missed a third group who are willing to accept challenge for challenge's sake, regardless of reward.

[Gremmlynn]

I would say that the closure of the game about a year after the wiping of the game servers indicates complete failure of that technique, not revitalization.Actually it was most likely the result of the global economy having a rather large adjustment. The game was, at best, breaking even and more likely losing little enough that it wasn't worth the bad press and other considerations to close it down until money got tighter. It was a great game for those who were "hard core" enough to handle it's rather draconian risk/reward structure though.

[Gremmlynn]

I never said I was not. Mainstreamers are far greater in number than gamers. I explained this already. That however does not mean a niche game can not be profitable. In fact, Pantheon is being made specifically to address the issues we are discussing. Read their mission statement, what they are doing and who they are doing it for. It isn't for mainstream.I never said one couldn't. I just see the empirical evidence pointing to niche games not being as or more profitable.

Think of it in these terms. Every quest in DDO gives xp, but players are more likely to play high xp/min quests rather than low. Companies see things the same way. It costs about as much to make a mainstream game as a niche game (and this isn't a small amount of money with an MMO), why spend that on a game they think will have lower returns? Especially when you consider they generally have to convince someone else to put up most, if not all, of that money.

Is that game being made by someone who simply doesn't care about profits, some billionaire's or gamer group's pet project or such? If so it stands a chance as long as they are committed to keeping going despite whatever the cost.

[Xenich]

I never said one couldn't. I just see the empirical evidence pointing to niche games not being as or more profitable.

Yes, and the sky is blue, water is wet. Obviously appealing to a market that is a 100 times larger than another is more profitable. Nobody questions that, but if you have been paying attention, games were not always made from the position of making money first and foremost. ID software wasn't 11 guys looking to find the next marketing gimmick to get rich off of. They were gamers who loved games and wondered if they could make money off doing what they loved. That is the difference between companies today who make games for money and them. It shows, we gamers see this. We see they are marketing to entertainment and the fad market. This is not news to us. There is however still a market for niche games out there. In fact, single player games are going through this very issue (KS games bypassing big publishers to make games for niche because the mainstream publishers wouldn't support it).




Think of it in these terms. Every quest in DDO gives xp, but players are more likely to play high xp/min quests rather than low. Companies see things the same way. It costs about as much to make a mainstream game as a niche game (and this isn't a small amount of money with an MMO), why spend that on a game they think will have lower returns? Especially when you consider they generally have to convince someone else to put up most, if not all, of that money.

Is that game being made by someone who simply doesn't care about profits, some billionaire's or gamer group's pet project or such? If so it stands a chance as long as they are committed to keeping going despite whatever the cost.

Why? There is no reason to spend it in lower returns. That is why doing more difficulty content is beneficial. You want the wage of a network or software engineer? Fine, go out and spend the ENORMOUS amounts of hours it takes to learn and develop those skills so you can obtain the rewards of such a venture. You want to have that body builder body? Why go out and work hours upon hours upon hours with pain and effort to obtain that reward. Risk and reward is a part of life. The effort is the price for the satisfaction of a job well done.

Games are emulations of life. They simulate elements of effort and reward, in a neat little package. The thing is, mainstreamers aren't looking for that. They want entertainment, nothing more. Mainstreamers are not gamers, they do not like games because they do not like the very thing that makes a game (a challenge of obstacles to which one tests themselves against). /shrug

[Gremmlynn]

Why? There is no reason to spend it in lower returns. That is why doing more difficulty content is beneficial. You want the wage of a network or software engineer? Fine, go out and spend the ENORMOUS amounts of hours it takes to learn and develop those skills so you can obtain the rewards of such a venture. You want to have that body builder body? Why go out and work hours upon hours upon hours with pain and effort to obtain that reward. Risk and reward is a part of life. The effort is the price for the satisfaction of a job well done.

Games are emulations of life. They simulate elements of effort and reward, in a neat little package. The thing is, mainstreamers aren't looking for that. They want entertainment, nothing more. Mainstreamers are not gamers, they do not like games because they do not like the very thing that makes a game (a challenge of obstacles to which one tests themselves against). /shrugHey get rich quick schemes and easy weight loss or body building products sell. If I want mass appeal I'm going to make things seem as easy on those masses as possible. Take one pill a day and spend 15 minutes doing this workout to achieve the wanted results are what the masses are looking for, so it's what get's sold.

That's what WB is selling because that's what get's their stockholders the best return on their investment. Anyone that isn't working towards that end isn't doing the job those stockholders are paying them to do. Welcome to Earth 2015. Nobody says you have to like or agree with it, but, right or wrong, that's the world we live in.

[Xenich]

Hey get rich quick schemes and easy weight loss or body building products sell. If I want mass appeal I'm going to make things seem as easy on those masses as possible. Take one pill a day and spend 15 minutes doing this workout to achieve the wanted results are what the masses are looking for, so it's what get's sold.

That's what WB is selling because that's what get's their stockholders the best return on their investment. Anyone that isn't working towards that end isn't doing the job those stockholders are paying them to do. Welcome to Earth 2015. Nobody says you have to like or agree with it, but, right or wrong, that's the world we live in.

Never argued the fact of the major market. There is a niche market though and there are enough of people like me who want a game that provides the elements I described in order to be profitable.

[Bisounours]

regarding the current xp bonus able to ' count ' how many member are in the party for allowing the correct xp bonus ( counting in real time who is in quest or not ) , maybe something similar could be done but instead of counting the member for adjust the xp , simply check the total number of past life going for the quest and scalling the dungeon accordingly ....

Not sure if this idea could please everyone , but for me it look logical to adjust party vs mobs instead of increase ( or decrease ) the difficulty and impacting everyone who dare to push the door...

This way , everyone could get a balanced difficulty for the power they come with , no need to change the loot since these said loot are already owned by theses players ( IE past life ) , and the new ones could get a balanced encounter for the power they have to offer.

just my 2 cent as a returning player ( gone since MOTU and back since a few month ) but if this idea could help , feel free to push it where it need to be pushed , because i could not by myself for language reason.

have fun in game ;)


PS : sorry for my english ;)

[Qhualor]

regarding the current xp bonus able to ' count ' how many member are in the party for allowing the correct xp bonus ( counting in real time who is in quest or not ) , maybe something similar could be done but instead of counting the member for adjust the xp , simply check the total number of past life going for the quest and scalling the dungeon accordingly ....

Not sure if this idea could please everyone , but for me it look logical to adjust party vs mobs instead of increase ( or decrease ) the difficulty and impacting everyone who dare to push the door...

This way , everyone could get a balanced difficulty for the power they come with , no need to change the loot since these said loot are already owned by theses players ( IE past life ) , and the new ones could get a balanced encounter for the power they have to offer.

just my 2 cent as a returning player ( gone since MOTU and back since a few month ) but if this idea could help , feel free to push it where it need to be pushed , because i could not by myself for language reason.

have fun in game ;)


PS : sorry for my english ;)

it might have been a good idea before Ottos Boxes. also, there are a lot of first life characters that are played by vets. past lives is only one piece to the puzzle.

[Silverleafeon]

The problem with scaling being based upon past lives (the more past lives you have the greater the scaling occurs for the whole party in a quest) is:

It goes against the whole risk vs rewards concepts.


You are encouraging players not to gain past lives as their is no longer any reward for doing so.


As a toon gains power, it loses it.


It discourages Vets helping Newcomers.


Newcomers are suddenly overwhelmed with the increased difficulty level when grouping with Vets.


Ect...

[Xenich]

Ubisoft did it with the MMO Shadowbane. It revitalized the game.

Shadowbane was shut down. Like I said, no company would do such if they wanted to stay in business.

[Xenich]

Smedly is correct, the business is about entertainment. I want to be entertained.

Since we are not going to get rid of Wiki, punish XP cheaters, introduce expensive game monitoring or discovering some way to alter how fast DDO is assimilated by its player base, this is only informatics. You cannot change a demographic mindset on how to "play games"; these are after all games. So acknowledging Smed's commentary, what can be improved upon? Smed's pointing out of confounding variables only shows designers where their opportunities may arise, and where things are out of their hands. Winning and failing is subjective in these types of games. It is like calling something "Endgame" material - amorphous ideology.

We as players have a part is this tail of two cities. We are greedy - we want what we want, we race to the end and yell - More, and we blame the game for doing what it was designed to do - offer a fun experience stretch out over time.

Don't use "we" as if you speak for all players. Your desire for entertainment is not shared by all, even if mainstreamers are the majority. As I pointed out, some wish to play a game and while a game can be entertaining, a game is not entertainment. While those seeking entertainment are concerned only about getting what they want, what gives them instant gratification, those seeking to play a game have a much different set of expectations. The entertained don't care about balance, risk/reward, etc..., they don't care about games. They want to be entertained, simply and plainly. A gamer enjoys the systems, the obstacles, the conditions set, the rules required, and how they are to achieve success within those. The more difficult, the more challenging the game is, the more reward as the entire point of a gamers "entertainment" IS the game, not the need for simple entertainment.

The problem with Smedly is that he discards the gamer and proclaims entertainment as the only importance. Smedly chased the mainstreamer, the people who never cared about games in the first place. As I said before, the people who want to be entertained care nothing about gaming systems. Smedly sold out gamers, the industry sold out gamers and now they can't seem to understand why the current crowd of "entertained" they cater to is so fickle and can never be satisfied.

[Qaliya]

The problem with Smedly is that he discards the gamer and proclaims entertainment as the only importance. Smedly chased the mainstreamer, the people who never cared about games in the first place. As I said before, the people who want to be entertained care nothing about gaming systems. Smedly sold out gamers, the industry sold out gamers and now they can't seem to understand why the current crowd of "entertained" they cater to is so fickle and can never be satisfied.

I think they are too busy counting their money to worry about it.

"A game is not entertainment" is a very weird phrase. I know what you mean, but it's still weird.

It's also pretty inaccurate. Games are entertainment. All DDO players are gamers, some just play more than others. Pretty much all are doing it as a means of entertainment.

I also think your complaint about "entertainment players" not being able to be satisfied for long overlooks an important point: serious gamers can't be satisfied for long either. In fact, they are even worse. Whenever new content comes out, in any game, it is the "hardcode" players who log in the second it comes out, chew through it all in a few hours, and then complain that it wasn't enough. I've seen it with every update of every MMO I have ever played. The only exception is when a mechanism is deliberately put in to make it take longer, and then they complain about "mindless grinding".

So, boredom through easy attainment of goals, or boredom through grinding: choose your poison. The bottom line is still the same: companies can't cost-effectively put out enough content to keep players, especially ones who play 40+ hours a week, continually engaged and entertained.

[Azarddoze]

I think they are too busy counting their money to worry about it.

"A game is not entertainment" is a very weird phrase. I know what you mean, but it's still weird.

It's also pretty inaccurate. Games are entertainment. All DDO players are gamers, some just play more than others. Pretty much all are doing it as a means of entertainment.

I also think your complaint about "entertainment players" not being able to be satisfied for long overlooks an important point: serious gamers can't be satisfied for long either. In fact, they are even worse. Whenever new content comes out, in any game, it is the "hardcode" players who log in the second it comes out, chew through it all in a few hours, and then complain that it wasn't enough. I've seen it with every update of every MMO I have ever played. The only exception is when a mechanism is deliberately put in to make it take longer, and then they complain about "mindless grinding".

So, boredom through easy attainment of goals, or boredom through grinding: choose your poison. The bottom line is still the same: companies can't cost-effectively put out enough content to keep players, especially ones who play 40+ hours a week, continually engaged and entertained.

Just re-read what he wrote and get a feeling of what he really meant with gamers.

Gamers: Those interrested/passionated about games.
Non-Gamers: Those who ended up playing games as their entertainment for x reasons. They don't care for anything else than entertainment and often it is purely about "killing time". If they don't care about (nor respect) the rules set up for us to play with, they will just instead ask/whine/demand for whatever they wish and thus, once majoritary, they simply shape the game (and now, the online gaming industry) over time.

I can't be accurate with my description using english language but I get what he meant and it is actually pretty accurate... if you're willing to read between the lines when understanding "gamers" as used in this conversation.


Also, serious gamers can be satisfied for a long time... if and only if the environment (game) would keep on being shaped around, not only their taste, but just not 95% (whatever ridiculously high %) around casual's preferences... which is not happening anymore since years. So you don't see serious gamers being satisfied for a long time.

Look at UO, EQ and WoW (I'd even throw in Asheron's Call since it's a Turbine MMO who wasn't casual and lived long enought for what it is imo). How did WoW change, why does it suck so much more now for gamers, etc....


Edit: About 40 hours gamers doing it for a while. Those are addicted. They will grind no matter what there is to grind because their disposable time is usually about infinite. These are never a good benchmark for anything as they don't represent in any way one simple demographic (they can be all kind of players). Boredom or not. It's not because alot of people enjoy endless and mindless grinding that we have to lose sight of what we knew was fun in a video game. Mechanics evolve, graphics evolve but there is not that many feelings to get from a traditional video game. I'd prefer changing the choices being offered than going with "what kind of boredom should I enjoy". That attitude only reinforces the statu quo. That is coming from my gamer PoV.

I know why the industry does it but everything starts with a change of mentality. If common sense would ever come back into society, a good and fun game might just be what it should be once again.

Oh and people wouldn't prioritize favor rewards over balanced difficulties...........................

[Qaliya]

This idea of a split between "non-gamers" and "gamers" is a myth. Mostly propagated by those who consider themselves in the second category, of course.

We all play games, so we are all gamers. And there's no wall separating casual and hardcore gamers. There's a spectrum.

And there are also multiple dimensions. Time investment and desire for challenge don't always go together, for example. Some of the people who play the most and would consider themselves "power gamers" are the ones most interested in shortcuts and making things as easy as possible. It's not just "casuals" buying all those Otto's boxes.

There are all types here, not just "casual" and "serious".

[Azarddoze]

This idea of a split between "non-gamers" and "gamers" is a myth. Mostly propagated by those who consider themselves in the second category, of course.

We all play games, so we are all gamers. And there's no wall separating casual and hardcore gamers. There's a spectrum.

And there are also multiple dimensions. Time investment and desire for challenge don't always go together, for example. Some of the people who play the most and would consider themselves "power gamers" are the ones most interested in shortcuts and making things as easy as possible. It's not just "casuals" buying all those Otto's boxes.

There are all types here, not just "casual" and "serious".

That is the obvious, hence why stating it seems unnecessary.

I did not intend to cover the whole thing... I was replying to your post which was replying to a post to which I agreed to.

There is a split when it comes to motivations. There is a split when it comes to where (in-game) the entertainment comes from. There is a split when it comes to the very reason of chosing a MMO RPG as your main hobby.

If you read the edit of my last post, you will understand that I also feel that time investment has nothing to do with it obviously. Why bring it up?

Your reasoning seems to be based on a generalized stereotype.

[Xenich]

I think they are too busy counting their money to worry about it.

"A game is not entertainment" is a very weird phrase. I know what you mean, but it's still weird.

It's also pretty inaccurate. Games are entertainment. All DDO players are gamers, some just play more than others. Pretty much all are doing it as a means of entertainment.


There is a distinct difference in purpose. A game is not entertainment, entertainment is what people play some games for. You say you understand, but you are missing the point here. A game is set of objectives, tasks, or requirements to which are constrained by rules that a person competes to complete. A card game, a soccer game, a game of wits, a war game, etc... That is the definition of a game. Some people play games for entertainment, but a game is not entertainment itself. My point follows basic logical P/Q form. That is, while a game can be entertaining, not all games are entertainment. This is valid premise.

Let us consider "entertainment". Entertainment can be anything, it is subjective. It can be a game, watching a movie, running, swimming, or anything really. It is a subjective term. It is what people do to achieve fun (another subjective term). That is, entertainment is anything that a person finds enjoyable in doing. Entertainment can not define what a game is, it is a result of playing a game, but it is not "a game" itself.

So, understanding this we now see the difference between those seeking entertainment and those seeking to play a game. I enjoy games, they entertainmen me. They do so because I find what a game is, its purpose, its definition that is the point and what is fun. I find the competition between myself and the computer to archive victory over a given obstacle as enjoyment... ie entertainment. Some may not find some games enjoyable. Some may find certain games not entertainment at all.

This brings us to a dilemma. If your interest is merely to be entertained, then you are not seeking a game because it is a game by its purpose and definition, you are seeking a certain game because something about it entertains you. You may have no concern for the rules, risk/reward or challenge because your entire goal is entertainment in any form that pleases you. As I said for me, the entertainment is that it is a game that serves its entire purpose of its definition. I am concerned with the rules, risk/reward, the challenge of the obstacles. I want to compete against the computer, challenging myself, etc... that is why I play a "game". The game is the entertainment, not simply entertainment itself.



I also think your complaint about "entertainment players" not being able to be satisfied for long overlooks an important point: serious gamers can't be satisfied for long either. In fact, they are even worse. Whenever new content comes out, in any game, it is the "hardcode" players who log in the second it comes out, chew through it all in a few hours, and then complain that it wasn't enough. I've seen it with every update of every MMO I have ever played. The only exception is when a mechanism is deliberately put in to make it take longer, and then they complain about "mindless grinding".

Some do, in EQ there were a small percentage of players who ate up content fast. When I say fast, I mean.... they took only a few months to hit cap and a few more months before they beat the raid content. Today, those same players finish content in hours, rather than months. Not because they are skilled, but because the games are much much easier and take much less time commitment. The goal is not to worry about the extremes. The point is to consider the middle ground as it concerns that concept of focus. The average player wasn't even fully finished with the previous content before new content was released. The average player in EQ by the way was putting in 20 hours a week or more. The hardcore players were putting in 8-12 hour shifts, without working, playing the game essentially full time. Today, people call the normal players hardcore, but those players were average gamers. As I said, entertainment players aren't gamers, gaming to them is just something to pass the time. Gamers actually played these games as hobbies.


The problem here is that you can not make a game for entertainment players AND the gamers without making both of them upset. They are completely different markets and they deserve equal respect. I don't think all games should be hardcore. There should be games that attend to those seeking to be entertained. That said, I think there should also exist games where they actually attempt to make a game and hold to a games definitional focus. There is no reason both can not coexist in the market and I am not the only one who thinks this (Brad McQuaids new MMO is being designed specifically for this purpose). The question is... can the "entertained" respect that? Or will they come to that game like they did all the other games in the market and demand it also be stripped to appeal to mainstream demand?






So, boredom through easy attainment of goals, or boredom through grinding: choose your poison. The bottom line is still the same: companies can't cost-effectively put out enough content to keep players, especially ones who play 40+ hours a week, continually engaged and entertained.

Grinding exists in a game and you will never get rid of it. The question is not if there should be a grind or not, but if that grind is satisfying (ie worth the effort through proper risk/reward). The problem with games today is that they all make easy goals so everyone can do them without effort and guaranteed success. The only choice then is to make increase the time requirement to extreme levels as there is other risk factor to balance because by doing so, it would alienate some who do not wish to push the effort. This is why Real Money Transaction stores came about. They now allow people to circumvent that risk requirement (time) by paying money. these games are not really games, but interactive entertainment simulators designed to fulfill peoples desire to be entertained, not with providing them a game. There is no point to a game if you give the option to your competitor to simply ignore the rules to win simply becauee they pay you money. There is also no point to a game is there is no real challenge to the completion or victory of it. Some call that mindless activity. /shrug

[Xenich]

This idea of a split between "non-gamers" and "gamers" is a myth. Mostly propagated by those who consider themselves in the second category, of course.

We all play games, so we are all gamers. And there's no wall separating casual and hardcore gamers. There's a spectrum.

And there are also multiple dimensions. Time investment and desire for challenge don't always go together, for example. Some of the people who play the most and would consider themselves "power gamers" are the ones most interested in shortcuts and making things as easy as possible. It's not just "casuals" buying all those Otto's boxes.

There are all types here, not just "casual" and "serious".

Your use is a generalization. I am not arguing such simplistic evaluation, rather I am looking at the deeper evaluation between those types. Obviously if we do not look closely, a general conclusion can be made (ie those people in the room are all playing games, so therefore they are all gamers). That however is not entirely true without properly evaluating intent. I have played basket ball, football, etc.. from time to time, but I would never consider myself as a sports guy. I have no interest in the details of those sports, I care not about the whole rules and process, I don't watch them, I really don't care much about them, but I have played them from time to time. So using that broad stroke to support your position is not helpful in the discussion.

As for those who look for cheats, easy wins, PTW, etc... I am not arguing a casual vs hardcore argument. Play time has nothing to do with being a gamer or not. I know people who can only play maybe a couple hours on the weekend, and yet they are a gamer. So this isn't an issue of time, it is an issue of those seeking a game to entertain them and those seeking entertainment by playing a game. They are distinctly different in what they expect.

[SilkofDrasnia]

1. The game is easy by intended design goals (ie mainstreamed due to Turbine/WB intention).
2. Difficulty without proper risk/reward is meaningless to many people.
3. Giving proper risk/reward will anger the mainstream.
4. The game is easy by intended design goals (ie mainstreamed due to Turbine/WB intention).

There is no solution here. Honestly, I am not trying to be negative, merely pointing out that I have seen this happen with many MMOs.

The game of challenge you once knew is gone. There may be some challenge brought back in some forms (usually in the form of conditional grinds or maybe some end game raid requirement), but having general content difficult is not a design goal. If they make a new level in heroics/epics that require people to have TRd, min/maxed, etc... to succeed, the mainstream will complain and only they are important.

Understand this, accept it and you may still find enjoyment with the game. If it isn't anymore, drop it and move on. Being loyal to a game company these days is foolish.

Indeed, some people have a hard time facing reality though and keep spouting the same thing and the same argument thinking it will get them a different result.

Take the whole entitlement argument, doesn't matter which side you are on or even if your not on any side just using this argument proves you feel entitled to something.

We have done this experiment already when we went from EPICS difficulty to the whole N/H/E difficulty system and we just went full circle and even maybe a little less as epic use to be tougher and we never really got that back.

The game has changed too much there has been too much power creep and it no longer can afford to cater to the minority that wants this challenge, I know I was one of those minority.

[Chai]

Hey get rich quick schemes and easy weight loss or body building products sell. If I want mass appeal I'm going to make things seem as easy on those masses as possible. Take one pill a day and spend 15 minutes doing this workout to achieve the wanted results are what the masses are looking for, so it's what get's sold.

That's what WB is selling because that's what get's their stockholders the best return on their investment. Anyone that isn't working towards that end isn't doing the job those stockholders are paying them to do. Welcome to Earth 2015. Nobody says you have to like or agree with it, but, right or wrong, that's the world we live in.

That's what the game turned into however it didn't start as that game. That's a major part of this issue. When you take a game that was developed under old MMO game mindset for that specific market audience and transition it into the new pay to circumvent playing the game entertainment venue, there is going to be resistance. Games that started more recently as interactive entertainment games with scads of p2w, awesome graphics, and super easy encounters where everybody wins, attract that market audience of player who likes those things, and no one bats an eye. DDO didn't start with that market audience.

As fast as technology cycles and marketing cycles go time wise, youre basically kicking in the door of the old folks home and changing the channel on their TV so you can watch Miley twerk in some hilarious music video, and then acting surprised when the residents tell you to turn it back to Billie Holiday and get off their lawn. Its like someone booked Skrillex to play at some Cheers style bar where a bunch of 35-50 year old regulars wind down after a rough day at the paper mill, and thought that was a good idea.

In 2015, those venues that were set up to cater to the old guard are still around. If you want to turn it into an ultra modern trap club where all the homeboys drank dey purple stuff, youre going to have to contend with the loss in revenue from firing the disco DJ and the money his crowd spent.

[SilkofDrasnia]

That's what the game turned into however it didn't start as that game. That's a major part of this issue. When you take a game that was developed under old MMO game mindset for that specific market audience and transition it into the new pay to circumvent playing the game entertainment venue, there is going to be resistance. Games that started more recently as interactive entertainment games with scads of p2w, awesome graphics, and super easy encounters where everybody wins, attract that market audience of player who likes those things, and no one bats an eye. DDO didn't start with that market audience.

As fast as technology cycles and marketing cycles go time wise, youre basically kicking in the door of the old folks home and changing the channel on their TV so you can watch Miley twerk in some hilarious music video, and then acting surprised when the residents tell you to turn it back to Billie Holiday and get off their lawn. Its like someone booked Skrillex to play at some Cheers style bar where a bunch of 35-50 year old regulars wind down after a rough day at the paper mill, and thought that was a good idea.

In 2015, those venues that were set up to cater to the old guard are still around. If you want to turn it into an ultra modern trap club where all the homeboys drank dey purple stuff, youre going to have to contend with the loss in revenue from firing the disco DJ and the money his crowd spent.


Thing is though that crowd isn't here anymore and wont come back and those left are too small too be able to support this game really which is what we have seen the last couple years and why the changes.

In other words I don't think Wb cares at all if the old crowd leaves and there's more to be gained from the new crowd.

[Xenich]

That's what the game turned into however it didn't start as that game. That's a major part of this issue. When you take a game that was developed under old MMO game mindset for that specific market audience and transition it into the new pay to circumvent playing the game entertainment venue, there is going to be resistance. Games that started more recently as interactive entertainment games with scads of p2w, awesome graphics, and super easy encounters where everybody wins, attract that market audience of player who likes those things, and no one bats an eye. DDO didn't start with that market audience.

As fast as technology cycles and marketing cycles go time wise, youre basically kicking in the door of the old folks home and changing the channel on their TV so you can watch Miley twerk in some hilarious music video, and then acting surprised when the residents tell you to turn it back to Billie Holiday and get off their lawn. Its like someone booked Skrillex to play at some Cheers style bar where a bunch of 35-50 year old regulars wind down after a rough day at the paper mill, and thought that was a good idea.

In 2015, those venues that were set up to cater to the old guard are still around. If you want to turn it into an ultra modern trap club where all the homeboys drank dey purple stuff, youre going to have to contend with the loss in revenue from firing the disco DJ and the money his crowd spent.

Exactly. Lets see though, EQ came out in 1999, WoW in 2004, DDO around 2006 and LoTRO in 2007. How many of these people going on about mainstream focus were even playing these games back then?

[Chai]

Thing is though that crowd isn't here anymore and wont come back and those left are too small too be able to support this game really which is what we have seen the last couple years and why the changes.

In other words I don't think Wb cares at all if the old crowd leaves and there's more to be gained from the new crowd.

If that were the case there wouldn't be a VIP sub option. Im pretty sure they do still care about older users from the previous era of MMOs, as that is the crowd this game attracted initially. The changes are an attempt to attract interactive entertainment crowd while attempting to NOT offload the previous era veterans. That's why they refer to it as a hybrid model. Most new games nowdays aren't hybrid. They are straight up f2p/premium. Come play our game. We will clog your inventory with lockboxes you need to buy a key from the store to open. :p

More WHAT to be gained from the new crowd exactly? Attrition? revolving door? The new market audience is less predictable. They aren't loyal to any entertainment company, and once things get boring they move on. Its not like they are paying for a service and its a big hassle to switch providers. Bored = gone, some for good, some until the next update is released, and they return for a bit then bounce again.

The old guard, while less in head count, is more predictable. Keeping these folks around maintains a stable base of core players/income. They also don't want to switch because they clearly understand anything newer than DDO has interactive entertainment written all over it. We get to keep our one Cheers style joint where the regulars hang out, on the same block where other hang outs cant stay open for longer than a year because the same people rarely if ever frequent the same establishment long enough to generate regular business. The one saving grace of the interactive entertainment market audience is they spend more money in shorter bursts of time before they get bored and find something else to do, and that looks good on a quarterly spreadsheet. If you want to keep the joint open for a long period of time however, you need old hat regulars. Plain and simple. WB understands this. They are an old hat company.

[SilkofDrasnia]

If that were the case there wouldn't be a VIP sub option. Im pretty sure they do still care about older users from the previous era of MMOs, as that is the crowd this game attracted initially. The changes are an attempt to attract interactive entertainment crowd while attempting to NOT offload the previous era veterans. That's why they refer to it as a hybrid model. Most new games nowdays aren't hybrid. They are straight up f2p/premium. Come play our game. We will clog your inventory with lockboxes you need to buy a key from the store to open. :p

More WHAT to be gained from the new crowd exactly? Attrition? revolving door? The new market audience is less predictable. They aren't loyal to any entertainment company, and once things get boring they move on. Its not like they are paying for a service and its a big hassle to switch providers. Bored = gone, some for good, some until the next update is released, and they return for a bit then bounce again.

The old guard, while less in head count, is more predictable. Keeping these folks around maintains a stable base of core players/income. They also don't want to switch because they clearly understand anything newer than DDO has interactive entertainment written all over it. We get to keep our one Cheers style joint where the regulars hang out, on the same block where other hang outs cant stay open for longer than a year because the same people rarely if ever frequent the same establishment long enough to generate regular business. The one saving grace of the interactive entertainment market audience is they spend more money in shorter bursts of time before they get bored and find something else to do, and that looks good on a quarterly spreadsheet. If you want to keep the joint open for a long period of time however, you need old hat regulars. Plain and simple. WB understands this. They are an old hat company.

Nice thoery but the reality is VIPs or subs are not what make money thus the huge influx of f2p games. IF any of what you said was true there wouldn't be so many "hybrids". Also I never said they wanted to drive all the oldies away only they don't care if some do leave as they can reap the diehards while making more cash off the new crowd.. best o both worlds

....you say lockboxes I say ottoboxes, stat tomes etc etc ;)

[Qaliya]

There is definitely an argument to be made for this game refocusing to cater to more serious / older / traditional MMO players who value the D&D flavor. A game like WOW has to go for mass appeal, but this game is small to begin with. It would probably fare better accepting this, and embracing a niche, rather than trying to generically go after the mass market.

There are many companies that make a perfectly fine living this way. Heck, there are still companies producing and maintaining MUDs, even in 2015.

ETA: I still think this arbitrary distinction between "game" and "entertainment" is meaningless and distracts from the underlying argument.

[Xenich]

Thing is though that crowd isn't here anymore and wont come back and those left are too small too be able to support this game really which is what we have seen the last couple years and why the changes.

In other words I don't think Wb cares at all if the old crowd leaves and there's more to be gained from the new crowd.

They won't come back because of the mainstream changes. The old crowd still exists, still would play a solid "game" (as opposed to a mainstream entertainment simulator), but few companies have attempted to do such and those that did quickly switched to mainstream appeal after they pulled in the old crowd again. There is a market out there, but it isn't the size of the mainstream. It is steady and a good profit providing it isn't some mega corporate entertainment company. While a small company can easily get by with 50-100k subs (not FTP stores and gimmicks) and be extremely profitable, that sort of profit is insignificant to a large corporation. The companies that run the markets now deal in large profits and large markets. Making a profit isn't enough, it has to be the next world hit. Problem is, those companies pretty much bought up all of the studios and they dictate design direction and goals. So, what you get is the next "boy band" sensation in gaming, the next marketing gimmick system (FTP, Real Money Trade, and content designed to fit it).

Like I said, that market still exists. The single player market showed that with the Kickstarters that produced numerous old school style games like: Divinity:Original sin, Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity, and the list goes on... All were created without publish control and under the marketing of bringing "old school" gaming concepts back to life. They aren't mainstream level of profit, but they were still very profitable for the companies. This is the same concept you will see done with Brad McQuaids Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen:

Here are the basic tenants: (I selected a few specific to the discussion we are having)



GAME TENETS



- A requirement that classes have identities. No single player should be able to do everything on their own.

- A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics.
- An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.
- An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.
- An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.
- A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige.
- A mindset that designed downtime should be part of a game, ensuring players have time to form important social bonds.
- A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on group play will attract those seeking a challenge.
- A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.



Now will this come to fruition? All I can say is.. I hope so and there are a lot out there who would as well, but there is a lot of skepticism due to the fact of companies claiming one thing, then providing another. So time will tell. That said, there is an audience out there. Just look at P1999 (has over 10000 players) and EQs old school progression server just released from Daybreak a few months ago. There is a solid "subscription" base out there waiting to play a game we used to play. Question is... can the entitlement/narcissistic generation let such be or, like all of the previous games they have ruined with their demands, will they also head over to that game and demand more of the same? I find it odd how they are. I mean, I could care less that they have mainstream games. I think there should be games for all types of expectations, yet as you can see by reading some various sites about new games like this, the mainstreamers seem to have a fit when such games are made. As if they didn't already have numerous games that already attend to their style of play.

[SilkofDrasnia]

There is definitely an argument to be made for this game refocusing to cater to more serious / older / traditional MMO players who value the D&D flavor. A game like WOW has to go for mass appeal, but this game is small to begin with. It would probably fare better accepting this, and embracing a niche, rather than trying to generically go after the mass market.

Except that concept failed which is why it went hybrid in the first place.

[Qaliya]

Except that concept failed which is why it went hybrid in the first place.

How many years ago? Before my time for sure. Things have changed a lot.

I am not saying they have to give up the store model, I am sure they won't. It's not about that, it's more about how the design the game, and the methods they use to appeal to different categories of gamers. (And yes, they are all gamers, even the ones Xenich doesn't like.)

[SilkofDrasnia]

How many years ago? Before my time for sure. Things have changed a lot.

I am not saying they have to give up the store model, I am sure they won't. It's not about that, it's more about how the design the game, and the methods they use to appeal to different categories of gamers. (And yes, they are all gamers, even the ones Xenich doesn't like.)

Indeed things have changed alot, there are even less of the people that want the old concept around than back then and there's more of the "easy going" crowd than there was back then.

[Chai]

Exactly. Lets see though, EQ came out in 1999, WoW in 2004, DDO around 2006 and LoTRO in 2007. How many of these people going on about mainstream focus were even playing these games back then?

Some but not many. I don't see many accurate comparisons, just proclamations that those days are over. I think the biggest misunderstood concept is when a specific market audience is no longer main stream, some mistakenly believe it then has zero value where the companies who used to market to them just ignore them from then on out like they don't exist.

[Qaliya]

Indeed things have changed alot, there are even less of the people that want the old concept around than back then and there's more of the "easy going" crowd than there was back then.

If that's the case (I really don't know) then the entire "we need to make the game harder to appeal to Real Gamers [tm]" argument is based on a flawed premise and should be ignored.

Unless Turbine can find a way to get the game to appeal to more "old schoolers" who are similarly tired of the new model and want the old ways. That's not easy, but many companies have done it. Of course, they were mostly small and without a big corporate accounting department breathing down their necks...

[SilkofDrasnia]

If that's the case (I really don't know) then the entire "we need to make the game harder to appeal to Real Gamers [tm]" argument is based on a flawed premise and should be ignored.

Unless Turbine can find a way to get the game to appeal to more "old schoolers" who are similarly tired of the new model and want the old ways. That's not easy, but many companies have done it. Of course, they were mostly small and without a big corporate accounting department breathing down their necks...

It is the case, and the company has burned far too many like me that wanted and enjoyed the game difficulty pre nerf and pre solo everything and pre everyone can self heal etc etc. Anyone that played the game 2006 to now can see how this is true if they are honest with themselves.

[Qaliya]

Well I am not privy to the marketing info, though this makes sense to me.

The question then is obviously how to make it more difficult for those that care about such, while not scaring off people who aren't up to the higher difficulty. The new "reaper" mode still seems to hold the most promise.

However, it requires Turbine to make a conscious decision to stick with the higher difficulty when the inevitable complaints ensue. I think they can see that this makes sense to do, because there is no point in bothering to implement it if it quickly becomes "the new elite". We shall see.

I think it can be done. There are already a lot of folks who rarely ever run EE, and I am one of them.

[Xenich]

There is definitely an argument to be made for this game refocusing to cater to more serious / older / traditional MMO players who value the D&D flavor. A game like WOW has to go for mass appeal, but this game is small to begin with. It would probably fare better accepting this, and embracing a niche, rather than trying to generically go after the mass market.

There are many companies that make a perfectly fine living this way. Heck, there are still companies producing and maintaining MUDs, even in 2015.

ETA: I still think this arbitrary distinction between "game" and "entertainment" is meaningless and distracts from the underlying argument.

I don't think anything can be done to be honest. Well, not on the same server. I mean, they could release a new server focusing on old school design and play, but it won't change the complaints. The same people complaining here about another difficulty would still make the same argument that by having a harder server that gave rewards in such a fashion, it would be forcing them to play on it. Yeah, that is kind of how their logic works.


Except that concept failed which is why it went hybrid in the first place.

DDO failed because they released a product with very little content. I played it in Alpha, the game was near nothing back then. People were running limited content over and over till their eyes bled. Add in the fact that they were dealing with a market that was used to very open world exploration and it was a tough sell. It had nothing to do with difficulty.

[SilkofDrasnia]

I don't think anything can be done to be honest. Well, not on the same server. I mean, they could release a new server focusing on old school design and play, but it won't change the complaints. The same people complaining here about another difficulty would still make the same argument that by having a harder server that gave rewards in such a fashion, it would be forcing them to play on it. Yeah, that is kind of how their logic works.



DDO failed because they released a product with very little content. I played it in Alpha, the game was near nothing back then. People were running limited content over and over till their eyes bled. Add in the fact that they were dealing with a market that was used to very open world exploration and it was a tough sell. It had nothing to do with difficulty.

No, they got more content mainly after it went fremium, the lack of content was because...shall I repeat myself? Hell they even removed leveling sigils because it was making free/premium players leave and they needed cash.

[Xenich]

No, they got more content mainly after it went fremium, the lack of content was because...shall I repeat myself?

The lack of content was because... They released with little content. Since they had no content, they couldn't pull in enough subs.

[Chai]

Nice thoery but the reality is VIPs or subs are not what make money thus the huge influx of f2p games. IF any of what you said was true there wouldn't be so many "hybrids". Also I never said they wanted to drive all the oldies away only they don't care if some do leave as they can reap the diehards while making more cash off the new crowd.. best o both worlds

....you say lockboxes I say ottoboxes, stat tomes etc etc ;)

There aren't that many hybrids actually. Most hybrids are games that went with the subscription model first then later on added microtrans. The reason subscriptions don't make as much money is because the industry went from the game being the actual product you pay for, to the game merely being the environment people buy and use the real products they pay for in. When the game is the product people pay for, the game needs to be maintained and added to constantly to keep peoples attention focused on how much and how often it is being improved. This usually means a larger company with higher headcount and people hours to throw at multiple larger projects simultaneously (this is why many WOW clones failed btw - while many replicated WOW as a game well enough they didn't have a Blizzard-esque workforce to maintain it). What smaller companies have learned is they can shoehorn together a minimum viable product, open it up to all players and call it an open beta, and then sell starter packs, cosmetics, and p2w style items in their store, for more money than people will pay to sub multiple months.

While it would be correct to say DDO is no longer a sub only era game, it would be vastly incorrect to compare it apples to apples with newer mainstream interactive entertainment games. All of this "welcome to 2015" nonsense is just that - presented with no accurate comparison in place. DDO had to slowly transition using a hybrid sub+microtrans model, attempting to grab up new market audience while holding to as much old as possible. Six years later it is still attempting to do the same, still having both models in place. A game like NW for instance, is interactive entertainment with all the bells and whistles, and they are completely and utterly shameless about it. While it would be correct to say returning to sub only would kill DDO, this game would also die off if it ever tried to go all in on the interactive entertainment stuff as well. DDO would die if it ever tried to be EQ1, but it would also die if it tried to be NW. Just because they once headed in that direction doesn't mean they can continue to head in that direction with a net positive result. I see this myth perpetuated on the forums quite often, all the while net loss attrition continues to occur.

[SilkofDrasnia]

The lack of content was because... They released with little content. Since they had no content, they couldn't pull in enough subs.

Ah but if the initial concept would have been on track they would have had enough subs long enough to earn enough cash to make more content, ahem they way they did so with the expansions but alas....failed concept.

DDO hardcore community was never super huge even when we had some good lvl 20 raids going on with no timer bypasses etc etc which is why they took the mainstream road...so again failed concept and they ditched it entirely with motu.

[Qaliya]

The reason subscriptions don't make as much money is because the industry went from the game being the actual product you pay for, to the game merely being the environment people buy and use the real products they pay for in.

I think that's only one reason, and arguably not the most important. There's a lot of psychology at work here as well. Microtransactions are designed to hook people and keep them hooked in a way that a subscription simply cannot. I've experienced this myself in multiple venues.

Again I think they can easily still appeal to "real gamers" without totally changing the game, and do it with their limited resources. The ideas are all over this forum.

[Chai]

Except that concept failed which is why it went hybrid in the first place.

Not really. Theres a difference between lack of content focus (stuff to do) and lack of game engagement (challenge). The game didn't fail because it was too hard or players couldn't handle it. It failed because the amount of content could be defeated in a few short weeks, and there was nothing to do but repeat it. Then they released again with the "endgame" leveraging repeating much of that same content. What exactly did microtrans do to revive the game? Allowed us to buy our way past having to repeat it over and over but gave us the reward for it?

While it kept the game financially viable, it didn't really do anything to make the game more engaging.

[Chai]

I think that's only one reason, and arguably not the most important. There's a lot of psychology at work here as well. Microtransactions are designed to hook people and keep them hooked in a way that a subscription simply cannot. I've experienced this myself in multiple venues.

Again I think they can easily still appeal to "real gamers" without totally changing the game, and do it with their limited resources. The ideas are all over this forum.

But to do that goes right back to my original point - the game has to at least in part be the actual product that gets some focus. The more this happens by degree, the more people marketed to in the previous era stick around.

[Grosbeak07]

After reading through the first 12 pages of this thread, I've come to a realization.

We are all bored.

Some of us more, then others... but we are all mostly looking for 'something' in this game.

Simply making the game harder, or making a new difficulty level isn't going to solve anything. The game needs a brand new approach from several angles.

Right now Loot in this game is awful. You open hundreds of boring chests for junk. There is no excitement, not chance at something good. Even when you run something "difficult", you generally get rewarded with very little if anything. This to me, makes the game more boring then not being challenged. If I was opening chests and getting loot, I want... who cares what the difficult is. If I do something on a hard difficulty level and get rewarded for it, I find my experience good and rewarding. Right now I can run EE, get nothing and Turbine says I should like it. Run a Raid and nothing drops? You are just unlucky! Run it again! To that I say, no... it's just not fun.

So making some silly new difficulty level [which will just become the new standard, not matter what players say], without any meaningful rewards at any level, means it is doomed to failure.

So, lets get a new loot system! Make opening every chest in the game fun! Reward players for doing more difficulty content with higher drops!

[Xenich]

Ah but if the initial concept would have been on track they would have had enough subs long enough to earn enough cash to make more content, ahem they way they did so with the expansions but alas....failed concept.

They did not have enough content at start. There was a long gap before new content was added and the game was retooled for FTP. They did not get the subs because they did not have any content. If they had content when they released, people might have played, but instead the game was a massive grind fest of limited content.

Look, I was in the alpha in 2005. It was a public Alpha. Most people played it, saw it was severely lacking in content. The way it worked is you had to run the same dungeon over and over multiple times in order to get to another area. The game was worse than EQ2 which was one little tight area after another all locked requiring grinding to get through.

The game failed not because of a subscription model, it failed because it was a game with little content that provided nothing more than excessive grinds of that little content. When it was released (again) FTP, it had much more content and a retooled focus. That is why it did well.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Not really. Theres a difference between lack of content focus (stuff to do) and lack of game engagement (challenge). The game didn't fail because it was too hard or players couldn't handle it. It failed because the amount of content could be defeated in a few short weeks, and there was nothing to do but repeat it. Then they released again with the "endgame" leveraging repeating much of that same content. What exactly did microtrans do to revive the game? Allowed us to buy our way past having to repeat it over and over but gave us the reward for it?

While it kept the game financially viable, it didn't really do anything to make the game more engaging.

Think you got a faulty memory there, micro transaction allowed those that didn't want to pay a sub to purchase packs they could then play when ever without a sub. That's how they made their cash. The thing you talk about is when they finally ditched the whole hardcore scheme you guys all are preaching about.

Bottom line is this isn't Field of Dreams and even if you build it they still wont come.

The game is tired and old, the graphics are aging and there far too many other indie type games that don't have lagtastic issues etc etc.

But w/e lol I said my piece you guys keep on keeping on.

[Chai]

Ah but if the initial concept would have been on track they would have had enough subs long enough to earn enough cash to make more content, ahem they way they did so with the expansions but alas....failed concept.

DDO hardcore community was never super huge even when we had some good lvl 20 raids going on with no timer bypasses etc etc which is why they took the mainstream road...so again failed concept and they ditched it entirely with motu.

But they didn't really take the full on mainstream road. They just made some moves in that general direction. Each time they tried to emulate the REAL mainstream there was heavy resistance. Offer wall was a great example of that. Most mainstream games now days have multiple versions of the "offer wall" (give us your contact info and we will give you a small amount of microtrans currency) and no one bats an eye.

[Qaliya]

But to do that goes right back to my original point - the game has to at least in part be the actual product that gets some focus. The more this happens by degree, the more people marketed to in the previous era stick around.

What I don't understand about this company is how they leave so much "low hanging fruit" on the trees. The game is small, it has few developers, fine. Why don't they do all the easy stuff that would appeal to more players while costing them very little?

They DID do this a bit just this past weekend with the bonus XP for grouping. We need much more of it.

The post right after yours talks about loot, and that's another great example. Not many lines of code would be required to, say, rejuvenate chests so they are more fun. They need to take a page from the mobile/microtrans games here. Why not give chests a chance at good, rare stuff, based on their level? Even if it's a tiny percentage, it would add fun to the game. For almost no cost.

Similarly, there are existing adventures that could be overhauled for a tiny fraction of the cost of building new ones. I realize here there is an economic argument against (revitalizing old content vs. selling new content for TP) but still.

[Chai]

think you got a faulty memory there, micro transaction allowed those that didn't want to pay a sub to purchase packs they could then play w/e without a sub. That's how they made their cash. The thing you talk about is when they finally ditched the whole harcore scheme you guy all are preaching about.

Bottom line is this isn't Field of Dreams and even if you build it they still wont come.

Nope, my memory is just fine. Ive been able to compare and contrast both eras accurately.

Its been built, and they still do come. Its just not being done by smaller companies. A 16 year old MMO still has more players than this one. The MMO everyone else tried to clone, as well as a few others from that era, are still going much stronger than the vast majority of these cash grab interactive entertainment schemes marketed as "the new MMO" which keeps being defended here.

[SilkofDrasnia]

What I don't understand about this company is how they leave so much "low hanging fruit" on the trees. The game is small, it has few developers, fine. Why don't they do all the easy stuff that would appeal to more players while costing them very little?

They DID do this a bit just this past weekend with the bonus XP for grouping. We need much more of it.

The post right after yours talks about loot, and that's another great example. Not many lines of code would be required to, say, rejuvenate chests so they are more fun. They need to take a page from the mobile/microtrans games here. Why not give chests a chance at good, rare stuff, based on their level? Even if it's a tiny percentage, it would add fun to the game. For almost no cost.

Similarly, there are existing adventures that could be overhauled for a tiny fraction of the cost of building new ones. I realize here there is an economic argument against (revitalizing old content vs. selling new content for TP) but still.

It because the people that originally built the game are no longer here and the code probably looks like a 2000 year old family tree so when a new dev plays in it they have no idea what in hell is going to happen. lol

Atleast that what I tell myself to keeps things funny.

[Qaliya]

Its been built, and they still do come. Its just not being done by smaller companies. A 16 year old MMO still has more players than this one. The MMO everyone else tried to clone, as well as a few others from that era, are still going much stronger than the vast majority of these cash grab interactive entertainment schemes marketed as "the new MMO" which keeps being defended here.

Only true if you ignore the mobile space, where unbelivable boatloads of cash are being made on games with dev teams a tiny fraction of the size of WOW/Blizzard.

Not all companies can get there, but that's what is drawing all the attention towards the new "entertainment schemes".

[Chai]

What I don't understand about this company is how they leave so much "low hanging fruit" on the trees. The game is small, it has few developers, fine. Why don't they do all the easy stuff that would appeal to more players while costing them very little?

They DID do this a bit just this past weekend with the bonus XP for grouping. We need much more of it.

The post right after yours talks about loot, and that's another great example. Not many lines of code would be required to, say, rejuvenate chests so they are more fun. They need to take a page from the mobile/microtrans games here. Why not give chests a chance at good, rare stuff, based on their level? Even if it's a tiny percentage, it would add fun to the game. For almost no cost.

Similarly, there are existing adventures that could be overhauled for a tiny fraction of the cost of building new ones. I realize here there is an economic argument against (revitalizing old content vs. selling new content for TP) but still.

But thats giving it away without making people pay for it. As a player I thought the xp weekend was awesome. Looking at it from a marketing angle, I understand if they turned this on permanently this could eat into xp potion sales. Turning it on periodically however gets people used to higher xp, but then it goes away. Some will look toward xp potions so they can continue getting similar amounts of xp. This is one way the real mainstream games hook people into microtrans. They first create the opportunity, then charge to keep the window open so to speak.

As a player Id love to see more of this kind of stuff, but it will likely continue to happen in the form of events, rather than permanently inserted into the game.

[Chai]

Only true if you ignore the mobile space, where unbelivable boatloads of cash are being made on games with dev teams a tiny fraction of the size of WOW/Blizzard.

Not all companies can get there, but that's what is drawing all the attention towards the new "entertainment schemes".

Yep that's where Turbine is focusing their development, mobile games. At least that's what they said after the last round of layoffs.

[Qaliya]

But thats giving it away without making people pay for it.

Then fine, do it as events, or do it as a low percentage chance. It won't cost them much and will keep players happy. Maybe they can look at things from a slightly longer-term perspective? Yeah, I know.

[Xenich]

These boards are quite funny sometimes.
When we get to preview all those ridiculous changes and power creep or when even slight nerf ( like "nerfed" Blitz from 250 % damage to 250 melee power for some classes lol ) is getting discussed, almost noone says a single word against.
Every single class change discussion is just give us another plus crit multi or another working metamagic for xyz.

Yet few months later, "this game is too easy" threads pop every single day.
Not so good or entitled players lobby and devs appeasing the masses trying to salvage dwindling population is one of the biggest reasons why this game is so far from what it ( or mmorpgs ) in general is "supposed" to be.

Google "Boemond the Auto Attacking Champ " for the exact same thing what's happening to another Turbine game.
Nothing will change unless the community as a whole stops being bunch of whiny knobs because they got their arses kicked by a game.
But that's trend of gaming in general I suppose, people probably look for easy entertainment rather than maybe smaller but quality indie game.
Of course you can't tell people how to play, what to play. But Turbine in recent months took the dumbing down to a whole new level.


This community is not a "whole" and never will be. That is part of the point. What one side wants, the other is completely against. Only way to solve this problem is for companies to start making genre focused games rather than constantly trying to make a "games for everyone" development approach.

[Mendelsohn]

I could go for this if Stormreach is left as is, and they make Eveningstar harder.

This.

[HAL]

There is the old saying "Nothing worth having is ever easy". I could spend several paragraphs attempting to explain the value of effort and reward, but the fact is, you should already know or at least understand the concept. That means that any discussion on this specific point will likely be lost in pointless banter. If you don't get it now, you likely never will.

"Nothing worth having is ever easy" is not only untrue, it is a pap saying to reassure people who work harder than they should have to in order to have even a tiny amount of security in life. Do you think that people who inherit money or win the lottery feel badly because they didn't work hard for their money?

Sure, SOME people enjoy working hard or a difficult challenge. Others don't. And given the direction most games and MMOs are going I would say that, in the game arena at least, the latter are the higher number.