Why every ToEE crafting weapon has AOE proc?

[draven1]

Every ToEE crafting weapon has AOE proc.

It actually excludes sneaky types from using ToEE crafting weapons.

Is there any reason for this? Or just another crafting design failure?

[Gauthaag]

design failure?

[FuzzyDuck81]

It's a shame, yeah - except if you're a mechanic rogue, the ranged items are really sweet.

[Enoach]

I think one of the flaws of new crafting system as well as the high end augments is that there is a perception that AoE damage on weapons is the way to close the DPS gap. Forgetting how it can actually effect abilities that are in the game that some players actually like to use.

[Gauthaag]

sorry, but i still dont see it as design failure - or should i see as design failure in any weapons designed the way it doesnot fit my build? Imho weapons from there are well suiting the elemental theme.

[Lemdog]

Every ToEE crafting weapon has AOE proc.

It actually excludes sneaky types from using ToEE crafting weapons.

Is there any reason for this? Or just another crafting design failure?

They should have to option to turn that AOE off for sneaky types, i agree.

[Grailhawk]

I disagree not every weapon is for every build. Weapons with AoE procs are more suited for TWF who want to bunch up lots of mobs and tear through them.

[Lemdog]

I disagree not every weapon is for every build. Weapons with AoE procs are more suited for TWF who want to bunch up lots of mobs and tear through them.

Very true, some builds will want the AOE damage, and others (assassin, ninja spy) won't. Hence Option

[Xenich]

I disagree not every weapon is for every build. Weapons with AoE procs are more suited for TWF who want to bunch up lots of mobs and tear through them.

TWF is traditionally not an aoe style of focus, that has always been a focus of Two handed fighting due to the damage bonuses from wielding such a weapon. Even cleave and greater cleave only use the main hand for their damage as well as the general limitations of using TWF with cleave. The point is, AoE procs with a two handed weapon are a more logical focus than applying them to single handed weapons. I am not saying it is wrong to have it on a single handed weapon, but the argument of the OP is sound here.

[Chai]

Would have been better if there were a few options at each tier, with one of them being AOE. As it is, they are all the same basic template with different elements.

[Grailhawk]

Very true, some builds will want the AOE damage, and others (assassin, ninja spy) won't. Hence Option


TWF is traditionally not an aoe style of focus, that has always been a focus of Two handed fighting due to the damage bonuses from wielding such a weapon. Even cleave and greater cleave only use the main hand for their damage as well as the general limitations of using TWF with cleave. The point is, AoE procs with a two handed weapon are a more logical focus than applying them to single handed weapons. I am not saying it is wrong to have it on a single handed weapon, but the argument of the OP is sound here.

The fact that the weapons were designed for a style of play that the op is not using, and is not traditional does not make it a failure.

Options are good I like them to but not everything is an option. Would love to take Tier 5 enhancements from 2 trees but that's not an option.

[Xenich]

Would have been better if there were a few options at each tier, with one of them being AOE. As it is, they are all the same basic template with different elements.

I don't understand the whole AoE proc thing anyway. It seems as if it is an attempt to appeal to mainstream MMO game design by having every encounter be a AoE hack and slash fest. Heck in AD&D PnP, AoE spells could harm friendlies (including the caster), so the idea of a weapon that would proc with an PBAoE spell was... well... kind of silly. /shrug


The fact that the weapons were designed for a style of play that the op is not using, and is not traditional does not make it a failure.

Options are good I like them to but not everything is an option. Would love to take Tier 5 enhancements from 2 trees but that's not an option.

My point was that the design focus is counter to core system design. Single handed weapons with AoE procs is not a traditional AoE supporting weapon type due to the limitations of TWF as opposed to THF.

I am not claiming it a direct failure, but the logic in the implementation is... well... confounding, not to mention interesting considering rules and focus of AD&D spell and weapon design (ie proc AoE weapons are more of an MMO focus, not a D&D one). /shrug

[Chai]

I don't understand the whole AoE proc thing anyway. It seems as if it is an attempt to appeal to mainstream MMO game design by having every encounter be a AoE hack and slash fest. Heck in AD&D PnP, AoE spells could harm friendlies (including the caster), so the idea of a weapon that would proc with an PBAoE spell was... well... kind of silly. /shrug



My point was that the design focus is counter to core system design. Single handed weapons with AoE procs is not a traditional AoE supporting weapon type due to the limitations of TWF as opposed to THF.

I am not claiming it a direct failure, but the logic in the implementation is... well... confounding, not to mention interesting considering rules and focus of AD&D spell and weapon design (ie proc AoE weapons are more of an MMO focus, not a D&D one). /shrug

There were some instances, like rapiers that proc prismatic spray, which could be controlled by facing a specific direction when meleeing with it, but melee weapons which proc fireball sized AOE around the user were usually non damaging effects (like a concealing mist) which the user was prepared for and the mobs were usually not prepared for.

The likely reason people see it as a boon to twf is due to higher attack rate of twf, therefore more procs per time unit. People use the same logic to explain why weapon effects like holy add more DPS to twf (if both weapons have it). In EE quests, this only really serves to agro mobs the twf'r isn't currently striking which no one else has agro on either. A rogue assassinating 1-2 mobs in a group who procs an AOE onto all of the mobs in that group just opened a can of worms they may not be ready to deal with.
In PNP even if there was some kind of conditional "does not harm allies" in the description this would still be more of a curse than a boon. Magical fire for instance ignites combustibles and damages objects in the area. An arcane archer imbuing this to an arrow makes sense, but having it centered around a melee combatant really doesn't.

[Lemdog]

The fact that the weapons were designed for a style of play that the op is not using, and is not traditional does not make it a failure.

Options are good I like them to but not everything is an option. Would love to take Tier 5 enhancements from 2 trees but that's not an option.

Tier 5's from 2 or more trees would be an unreasonable option. This is a reasonable option. I get that TWF is not a combat style focused towards AOE, you have THF for that, but the ToEE crafting should allow an option for AoE or no AoE.

[Impaqt]

Very true, some builds will want the AOE damage, and others (assassin, ninja spy) won't. Hence Option

your Option is to simply use a different weapon.

Not every weapon is suitable for every build. Is there an option for the Sword of Shadows to be a Dagger? My assassin would LOVE to have the damage profile of the SoS on a dagger. Its just not fair that he cant have it!

[Chai]

your Option is to simply use a different weapon.

Not every weapon is suitable for every build. Is there an option for the Sword of Shadows to be a Dagger? My assassin would LOVE to have the damage profile of the SoS on a dagger. Its just not fair that he cant have it!

So a 20MP bonus should have a negative trade off for some but not all? That's what this boils down to.

[Grailhawk]

My point was that the design focus is counter to core system design. Single handed weapons with AoE procs is not a traditional AoE supporting weapon type due to the limitations of TWF as opposed to THF.

I am not claiming it a direct failure, but the logic in the implementation is... well... confounding, not to mention interesting considering rules and focus of AD&D spell and weapon design (ie proc AoE weapons are more of an MMO focus, not a D&D one). /shrug[/QUOTE]

The logic is sound as the game progress more towards kill a pack of enemies the TWF builds that play front line "zergers" (Tempest Rangers, Kensei Fighters, some Knights of the Chalice Paladins) need tools to help them kill packs of enemies.

I've been playing this game since 09 in the time I've played the game its focus has never been D&D it tries to have the flavor but lets not confuse that will it being D&D. I wasn't around in 06 but maybe it wanted to be D&D back then but it hasn't wanted to be D&D since.

[Grailhawk]

So a 20MP bonus should have a negative trade off for some but not all? That's what this boils down to.

Madstone boots prevent casting this was a problem for Paladins and Rangers back in the day there is precedence for items having awesome bonus that hinder some aspect of a build.

If the player is trying to sneak around and not draw attention he can swap weapons, this is much less crippling then being unable to cast spells.

[Erofen]

Every ToEE crafting weapon has AOE proc.

False, ranged weapons are still weapons. Though if you said "Every ToEE crafting weapon somewhat worth the bother to make has AOE proc." then I could agree with you.


It's a shame, yeah - except if you're a mechanic rogue, the ranged items are really sweet.
Seeker, Crippling, and Greater [Elemental] Blast is really sweet to you? The ranged crafting items suck.

[Gauthaag]

So a 20MP bonus should have a negative trade off for some but not all? That's what this boils down to.

melee power is truly directly connected to sneaky playstyle

[Gauthaag]

False, ranged weapons are still weapons. Though if you said "Every ToEE crafting weapon somewhat worth the bother to make has AOE proc." then I could agree with you.


Seeker, Crippling, and Greater [Elemental] Blast is really sweet to you? The ranged crafting items suck.

exactly:) put this on one handed weapon and gimm aoe proc repeater:)

[Chai]

Madstone boots prevent casting this was a problem for Paladins and Rangers back in the day there is precedence for items having awesome bonus that hinder some aspect of a build.

If the player is trying to sneak around and not draw attention he can swap weapons, this is much less crippling then being unable to cast spells.

And that was fixed by allowing us to turn it off with defensive fighting stances. Precedence for the issue, precedence for fixing the issue.

[Krelar]

And that was fixed by allowing us to turn it off with defensive fighting stances. Precedence for the issue, precedence for fixing the issue.

Have they fixed epic litany of the dead giving good characters a negative level yet?

[Coyopa]

Have they fixed epic litany of the dead giving good characters a negative level yet?

That's WAI. Same as lawful characters getting a negative level when using a True Chaos weapon.

[kmoustakas]

Personally I would much rather my artie's repeater have the 'melee' abilities and my assasin's dagger the 'ranged' abilities. As a matter of fact, it would have been perfect in those cases!

Sadly, they don't.

[Chai]

Have they fixed epic litany of the dead giving good characters a negative level yet?

Just join the dark side. We have better cookies anyhow.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Seeker, Crippling, and Greater [Elemental] Blast is really sweet to you? The ranged crafting items suck.

For me on my mechanic, in epics? Absolutely! High seeker score practically guarantees a confirmation when you roll a crit, increasing the chance crippling will proc - crippling has no save & stacks with tendon slice, pin, otto's whistler & leg shot (plus there's also the knockdown from greatcrossbow), which adds up to some pretty phenomenal crowd control for EE - a big help to both myself and the party as a whole since there's little to no need to worry about kiting & annoying people, and damage-wise, a great crossbow hits like a truck even without a couple of extra d10s of elemental damage or whatever.. and that's exacerbated even further since i'm running fury destiny at the moment to grind out the doubleshot.

[Erofen]

For me on my mechanic, in epics? Absolutely! High seeker score practically guarantees a confirmation when you roll a crit, increasing the chance crippling will proc - crippling has no save & stacks with tendon slice, pin, otto's whistler & leg shot (plus there's also the knockdown from greatcrossbow), which adds up to some pretty phenomenal crowd control for EE - a big help to both myself and the party as a whole since there's little to no need to worry about kiting & annoying people, and damage-wise, a great crossbow hits like a truck even without a couple of extra d10s of elemental damage or whatever.. and that's exacerbated even further since i'm running fury destiny at the moment to grind out the doubleshot.
http://m.ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shimmering_Arrowhead

[Coyopa]

http://m.ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shimmering_Arrowhead

There are better things to go in the trinket slot, though.

[Erofen]

There are better things to go in the trinket slot, though.
I'm aware, but a mod 9 item basically has the effects of the new toee ranged weapons.

Also there are better crossbows to go in the weapon slot, though.

[Seikojin]

Very true, some builds will want the AOE damage, and others (assassin, ninja spy) won't. Hence Option

There is, named weapons.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Assassin%27s_Kiss
http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_25_named_items

The crafting weapons are a slice of play styles and the named weapons are to cover the other playstyles for the most part. So I see no problem in options. Just the crafting one does not contain them all. By Design. :)

[Xenich]

The logic is sound as the game progress more towards kill a pack of enemies the TWF builds that play front line "zergers" (Tempest Rangers, Kensei Fighters, some Knights of the Chalice Paladins) need tools to help them kill packs of enemies.

I've been playing this game since 09 in the time I've played the game its focus has never been D&D it tries to have the flavor but lets not confuse that will it being D&D. I wasn't around in 06 but maybe it wanted to be D&D back then but it hasn't wanted to be D&D since.

Sure, I won't argue that direction. Games want to be WoW and group killing strategy is all the rave in those circles. That said, my point was that it was counter to the core system, regardless of them beating it like a red headed step child by turning the game into WoW, that fact still stands.

[Lemdog]

your Option is to simply use a different weapon.

Not every weapon is suitable for every build. Is there an option for the Sword of Shadows to be a Dagger? My assassin would LOVE to have the damage profile of the SoS on a dagger. Its just not fair that he cant have it!

Option for AOE on Toee dagger is an easy option.. no im not expecting SoS to be in dagger form. That is an Unreasonable option.

[Xenich]

There were some instances, like rapiers that proc prismatic spray, which could be controlled by facing a specific direction when meleeing with it, but melee weapons which proc fireball sized AOE around the user were usually non damaging effects (like a concealing mist) which the user was prepared for and the mobs were usually not prepared for.

The likely reason people see it as a boon to twf is due to higher attack rate of twf, therefore more procs per time unit. People use the same logic to explain why weapon effects like holy add more DPS to twf (if both weapons have it). In EE quests, this only really serves to agro mobs the twf'r isn't currently striking which no one else has agro on either. A rogue assassinating 1-2 mobs in a group who procs an AOE onto all of the mobs in that group just opened a can of worms they may not be ready to deal with.
In PNP even if there was some kind of conditional "does not harm allies" in the description this would still be more of a curse than a boon. Magical fire for instance ignites combustibles and damages objects in the area. An arcane archer imbuing this to an arrow makes sense, but having it centered around a melee combatant really doesn't.

Is it more procs though? I mean, I haven't parsed heavily this game as I have other games, but usually what developers do to deal with such favoring is to increase/lower proc rates on weapons depending on if they were 1h, 2h, main hand, off hand. Has anyone confirmed those facts in this game? Without that knowledge, such min/maxing is kind of pointless.

As for PnP, only time I saw weapons casting spells of the AoE nature was with soul imbued weapons. Even then, it was merely the soul casting various wizard spells at the behest of the wielder. This whole "proc and boom!" thing is a cheesy mainstream action arcade game gimmick. It is saddening.

[Grailhawk]

That said, my point was that it was counter to the core system, regardless of them beating it like a red headed step child by turning the game into WoW, that fact still stands.

I disagree, mostly because I hate the notion of pigeon holing THF as a AoE style and TWF as a Single Target style, THF should be about hitting hard and getting big numbers, TWF should be about smaller numbers faster.

As for AoE weapon procs have been in the game since at least LoB (U11 from 2011), its nothing new.


Is it more procs though? I mean, I haven't parsed heavily this game as I have other games, but usually what developers do to deal with such favoring is to increase/lower proc rates on weapons depending on if they were 1h, 2h, main hand, off hand. Has anyone confirmed those facts in this game? Without that knowledge, such min/maxing is kind of pointless.

The Elemental Area of Effect weapons like the ones in ToEE or LoB proc on a Vorpal regardless of weapon type. DDO has never really bothered to use tricks like that to make THW or OHW equal.

[Gauthaag]

also to add - toee has no real crafting system, there are no options at each tier. its plain upgrading system.

[kmoustakas]

also to add - toee has no real crafting system, there are no options at each tier. its plain upgrading system.

Actually that's a very good point

[Eth]

also to add - toee has no real crafting system, there are no options at each tier. its plain upgrading system.

But you can "decide" between upgrading your weapon with a +2 or a +4 mythic upgrade.
There is some serious math and decision making involved.

Is 4 > 2? Who knows?

[FuzzyDuck81]

http://m.ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shimmering_Arrowhead

My trinket slot is filled with http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Manual_of_Stealthy_Pilfering :) I use the arrowhead situationally until that point though, when i need to maximise the crowd control.



Also there are better crossbows to go in the weapon slot, though.

I've been rocking the epic divine artillery a lot now i'm at level 28, but still use the ToEE one for EEs thanks to the crowd control.. and have you actually seen the rogue mechanic enhancements? With those, my ToEE great xbow has a base damage rating a little over 110 which is crazy (haven't made t3 TF since i dont run the raids much at all, but t2 is "only" in the 70s iirc), and the epic set bonus is a stacking +20 ranged/melee/spell power which boosts stuff even more.

While other character builds have better gear options available, for me & what i want to do, I'll stick with my shiny crafted toy - having different capabilities for different approaches & uses is what makes DDO so good IMO.

[Jiirix]

I am quite fond of my offhand caster dagger. You loose Greater Maiming and Greater Flaming Blast (and the low damage aoe) but you gain Riposte and fire spell power/lore (wich is quite nice in DC for divine sphere pastlives or when you twist in energy burst on a INT based toon). A caster dagger get's you the 20 MP and frees the wrist slot for Dumathoin's Bracers or Skirmisher's Bracers (don't underastimate the 8% doublestrike if you don't have a epic quiver yet.)

[Coyopa]

I'm aware, but a mod 9 item basically has the effects of the new toee ranged weapons.

Also there are better crossbows to go in the weapon slot, though.

Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on your build and what you want to be able to do.

[Gauthaag]

I am quite fond of my offhand caster dagger. You loose Greater Maiming and Greater Flaming Blast (and the low damage aoe) but you gain Riposte and fire spell power/lore (wich is quite nice in DC for divine sphere pastlives or when you twist in energy burst on a INT based toon). A caster dagger get's you the 20 MP and frees the wrist slot for Dumathoin's Bracers or Skirmisher's Bracers (don't underastimate the 8% doublestrike if you don't have a epic quiver yet.)

that's actually cool n creative idea:)

[draven1]

Give us "non-AOE ToEE crafting options"

or

Make ToEE named weapons having ToEE set bonus.

[cru121]

toee caster sticks don't deal AoE damage

[draven1]

toee caster sticks don't deal AoE damage
ToEE melee focused weapons deal AOE damage.
Usually no one use caster stick for melee.

[Eth]

Make ToEE named weapons having ToEE set bonus.

But that would make them interesting und somewhat usable. /s

[Gauthaag]

ToEE melee focused weapons deal AOE damage.
Usually no one use caster stick for melee.

usual way is not always the best way.

also these days is quite unusual do quest sneaky way

[FuzzyDuck81]

ToEE melee focused weapons deal AOE damage.
Usually no one use caster stick for melee.

Maybe not purely melee types, but they can really nice for hybrid builds since you can combine your elemental spellpower & critical chance on an easy item slot with some pretty decent melee damage, as the casting versions still have the high +[w] part.

[Gauthaag]

imho they missed nicely themed option of having red slot there, which would give some nice bonus if u place right Ruby Eye of Element there - it would also allow sneakers place there something more sneaky instead

[svinja]

ToEE is not Greensteel or Thunder-Forged. If you don't like the item, don't use it. These are elemental damage themed weapons and it is not surprising that they have these effects.

Assassins both get a +6 assassinate item from this pack AND they get better value out of the elemental weapons than most melees due to being TWF and able to offhand them. Swap it out when you're assassinating or whenever you don't want AoE damage, you are not being "excluded" from anything. These weapons are way worse for many builds than they are for assassins.

[Enoach]

ToEE melee focused weapons deal AOE damage.
Usually no one use caster stick for melee.

Well, since ED abilities are effected by spell power I have found that my Paladin benefits using a weapon with spell power/crit chances when running in Draconic. Making me feel like a Tiny White Dragon having a full White dragon set (armor/helm) and a sword with ice spell power makes the ice burst/Breath/Aura more powerful since I don't have other ways to improve the damage done. Sometimes, a little drop in DPS for a large magic gain can go a long way, especially if you are not so hung up on being in an "off-destiny".

[FuzzyDuck81]

Well, since ED abilities are effected by spell power I have found that my Paladin benefits using a weapon with spell power/crit chances when running in Draconic. Making me feel like a Tiny White Dragon having a full White dragon set (armor/helm) and a sword with ice spell power makes the ice burst/Breath/Aura more powerful since I don't have other ways to improve the damage done. Sometimes, a little drop in DPS for a large magic gain can go a long way, especially if you are not so hung up on being in an "off-destiny".

A fire one when running in crusader is pretty sweet too, since it boosts the damage part of consecration :)

[Erofen]

have you actually seen the rogue mechanic enhancements?
Yes, and use them (see Roguerficer in bio), though I am one of the repeater folks, but repeater vs gxbow does not need to be argued in another thread.

[draven1]

Well, since ED abilities are effected by spell power I have found that my Paladin benefits using a weapon with spell power/crit chances when running in Draconic. Making me feel like a Tiny White Dragon having a full White dragon set (armor/helm) and a sword with ice spell power makes the ice burst/Breath/Aura more powerful since I don't have other ways to improve the damage done. Sometimes, a little drop in DPS for a large magic gain can go a long way, especially if you are not so hung up on being in an "off-destiny".

So, does anyone actually use caster option for melee? Don't fotget you need severe grind to complete A ToEE weapon. I didn't see anyone using completed ToEE weapon for "off-destiny". And only completed ToEE weapon offers 20 MP set bonus.

[Gauthaag]

So, does anyone actually use caster option for melee? Don't fotget you need severe grind to complete A ToEE weapon. I didn't see anyone using completed ToEE weapon for "off-destiny". And only completed ToEE weapon offers 20 MP set bonus.

u know some people are switching classes via tr, and some shinies once good for caster life could be as fine for melee.

[Chauncey1]

Every ToEE crafting weapon has AOE proc.

It actually excludes sneaky types from using ToEE crafting weapons.

Is there any reason for this? Or just another crafting design failure?


I have a TOEE set on my rogue and ranger, and they are able to sneak about just fine and dandy.

It's not exclusive in any way IMHO.

With that set on my mecharogue, hooooooo dawgies! Absolutely brutal.
The ranger...not so much, but still pretty darn good.

[Enderoc]

Make an AOE rogue....derp

[kmoustakas]

I am quite fond of my offhand caster dagger. You loose Greater Maiming and Greater Flaming Blast (and the low damage aoe) but you gain Riposte and fire spell power/lore (wich is quite nice in DC for divine sphere pastlives or when you twist in energy burst on a INT based toon). A caster dagger get's you the 20 MP and frees the wrist slot for Dumathoin's Bracers or Skirmisher's Bracers (don't underastimate the 8% doublestrike if you don't have a epic quiver yet.)

I hear you and that is my actual intention but I will equip it PURELY for the set bonus and riposte as my assasin has 0 spellpoints (not saying thats how he should be). What I can guess is that the designer of the items didn't forsee the applications of the items. Plus the fact that the bonus was added later and wasn't included in the original design maybe?

I'm not saying that there aren't any other items available mind you. For sure the options are there. TF and assasin's kiss are a fine set.

Perhaps I should switch into a throwing dagger assasin

[kanordog]

Every ToEE crafting weapon has AOE proc.

It actually excludes sneaky types from using ToEE crafting weapons.

Is there any reason for this? Or just another crafting design failure?

Yeah, there is a reason, it's called deadline.

[Erofen]

I have a TOEE set on my rogue and ranger, and they are able to sneak about just fine and dandy.

It's not exclusive in any way IMHO.

If an aoe goes off while you are trying to say assassinate a mob, then all of it's friends will wake up and chase you.