Bring back the value of healing others without nerfs or retrogressive changes [Archive]

IronClan

08-16-2015, 02:24 PM

The other thread is too hot button, starts off on the wrong foot and I think this topic could and should be discussed seriously without the flaming. So I'm asking people to keep it civil and have a real buckle down and figure something out type of discussion.

First of all we should talk about ways to empower the healing role that are more impactful than current but are not "wait around an hour with 11 players waiting for a healer to join" impactful, because returning to those days is not what I or most people want... So how to do that? Well surprisingly the answer might be staring us in the face, most of the bits and pieces needed for that (healing oriented abilities) are already part of the game, we just need to make a couple additions in the harder difficulty settings and/or new content that are not "instant outrage" hotbuttons.

So reserve these changes for Reaper mode, and consider them for EE only in brand new content. These are flexible suggestions, this is just a starting point. The intention is NOT to nerf self healing but to restore some of the role of "healer" while keeping it flexible who does it and where it comes from.

1. Add new "Profane" damage types TO SOME mobs/bosses (Reaper and possibly Champs in new EE content?) this new damage type comes in multiple flavors* I see this as a Devils, Demons and Planar/Demi-god like sort of damage, maybe it's what they use to kill Archons from a lore standpoint, and change some monsters to do this new type of stat/level/DOT/Bleeds damages* which can not be resisted by the (lets face it) Overly all powerful Deathward spell. Though DW will still ward against all the normal Negative energy based drains that will still be there.

2. Heal, Mass Heal, Regeneration Spell (and mass), Radiant Servant Bursts can cure this type of damage fully while healing HP's normally

3. Mass cure Moderate or better (including Angel ED SLA), Reconstruct/mass repair mod, Greater Restoration, Greater Vigor+mass Radiant Servant Aura, Cures XdY stacks of this damage.

4. Restoration, mass cure light, single target repair and cures, Healing spring, vigor and similar spells cure one stack.

A. this doesn't actually force anyone to be a heal bot, but it does make that role potentially desired again where right now it's scoffed at
B. this is flexible enough that a player in the raid already can switch destinies and allow the raid to go in without a long wait, there will almost always be someone who can play temporary stand-in (Druid, Bard, Paladin in Angel, even), just like the good ol days when most raiders had a healer/alt to swap in when the raid couldn't find a healer. Only this is flexible enough that a DPS toon could go in in a off destiny and contribute reduced DPS (like the aforementioned Paladin being in Angel when they are normally in LD or Crusader) but take care of Profane curse stacks
C. this doesn't devalue being self sufficient and it doesn't cause long waits for healers.

* possible intriguing effects some of these should only ever be Boss abilities
Creeping Death: a countdown to insta kill that is contagious like the boom in FOT but maybe less contagious like only spreads to 1d3 characters when you splode.
Profaned wounds: bleed style damage ticks please use a different sound than snick-snack.
Subjugated vitality: conventional loss of stats or level drain
Numbing sanity: causes loss of large chunks of skills and "power" (Spell/melee/ranged) that gets worse until skills are zeroed out
Oppressed mind: Reduction of healing amp, and DC's by a % per stack of profane
Tattered Wards: Curse that Suppresses Death Ward so that an increasing % of negative effects can get past per stack (like 10% per stack, so 1 out of 10 gets through per stack up to completely dispelled death ward with 10 stacks)
It Should not be: a long count down until death at which point your character becomes a dangerous Aparition/Revnant kinda like the soul stone guard in Deathwyrm.

Profane is just the most obvious name for it I could think of while writing, lore wise it could be any sort of higher reality Deific planar type of power or multiple types. The key is they aren't blocked by a heroic spell that almost everyone has, and they are cured by the right kinds of healing spells that increase the value of healing as a role.

Qezuzu

08-16-2015, 05:14 PM

Give Cocoon a Verbal component. Increase the number of mobs that can Deafen players (as well as Bewildering Blow). Have a raid boss have large, AoE Deafening attacks as a mechanic.

Gauthaag

08-16-2015, 05:30 PM

throw out the prr/mrr formula nonsense and rework damage mitigation system....that for first.

and to OP idea: why is reconstruct included? its arcane gimmick used to repair objects and construct. it cant even restore minor damage to life essence of warforged in form of ability damage - how it could cure more devilish wounds? Let the warforged have their weak point

IronClan

08-16-2015, 06:31 PM

Give Cocoon a Verbal component. Increase the number of mobs that can Deafen players (as well as Bewildering Blow). Have a raid boss have large, AoE Deafening attacks as a mechanic.

This is a good idea seems like it would be best as more of a one off thing maybe for some thunder god themed endgame planar travel quests and raid pack?

throw out the prr/mrr formula nonsense and rework damage mitigation system....that for first.

and to OP idea: why is reconstruct included? its arcane gimmick used to repair objects and construct. it cant even restore minor damage to life essence of warforged in form of ability damage - how it could cure more devilish wounds? Let the warforged have their weak point

Recon: because I want to have a discussion about how to reasonably accomplish the goal without having every WF and BF player filibustering the thread with "not signed" and "you suck, gdiaf" posts. That other thread made the mistake of asking an important question and then offering up a very polarizing idea on how to achieve the goal. I want to avoid that, so there must be compromises and "Yeah those BF and WF can suck it" is not a compromise. You might notice that unlike it's counterpart "heal" Recon is in the second tier of spells that DO NOT remove the Profane stacks entirely... I think this is a reasonable balance though I wouldn't be opposed to putting recon in the 3rd tier. I think that would cause a lot of people to hate on the idea. In the end I don't think it's that important to distinguish a hard line between repairing and healing so I didn't. Yes WF have it pretty good, but I'm not trying to change that here.

I don't have a problem with PRR/MRR it seems to have achieved what it was supposed to: give value to heavy/medium and even Light armor and a reason why someone might put a shield on and sacrifice DPS. AC is mostly busted because it's a double variable and achieving a working AC system that works across 4 (soon to be 5 I think) difficulty settings and doesn't allow "not hit unless mob rolls a 20" and doesn't reduce light and medium armor to "only missed on a 1" would effectively have to be very similar to what PRR/MRR looks like anyway.

Anyway one of the things I'm going to do in this thread in the name of not polarizing it into a popcorn thread is I'm not going to go around in circles arguing so that's my 2 cents on those points.

Talon_Moonshadow

08-16-2015, 06:35 PM

I heal others all the time.

...and I play Rangers.

Stoner81

08-16-2015, 06:51 PM

I play Heroics atm pretty much exclusively simply because I'm on the TR train but, I do heal others when I can and see that they need it but I don't babysit either since the healing ability that my main has is geared towards himself (lots of heal amp) so heals on others are weak but sometimes can be enough to keep them alive long enough that they can gulp down a few cure pots or whatever else.

Saying that healers are not required is so unbelievably biased it isn't even funny, many players would like a healer in a group especially in harder content. The general consensus on here seems to be that "the game is too easy make it harder" but these same players have the best kit and multiple lives under their belts and that's even before we start talking about game/quest knowledge however, the general consensus does not represent the true player base not by a long shot.

The only way (imho) to re-balance the game would be to start from scratch otherwise there will always be something that is over powered or whatever else, personally I would much prefer the devs spend time on fixing the multitude of bugs (some of which have been around for years), releasing new content and finishing systems and various things that they started (introduce more skill augments, enhancement trees for Druid, Arti, FvS etc etc).

Stoner81.

Braegan

08-16-2015, 07:28 PM

slarden

08-16-2015, 07:34 PM

A healer still has value in a few end game raids (not defiler of the just though). In MOD having a top-notch healer that can bring party members up quickly and throw some timely heals is a huge help in EE or even EH MOD. There are a few Sarlona healers that made our EE MOD run possible. One said he even grinded out 3 spell alacrity lifes and twisted in alacrity from magister - taking conjuration focus to be able to do so. Yeah, that made a big difference in EE MOD but very few other places.

AbyssalMage

08-16-2015, 09:14 PM

Fix AC mechanic.
Remove PRR/MRR
Return Fortification maximum to 100%
Remove/change the inflated gear that is inappropriate for their level range they are placed in.

When the above 4 things were the "norm" healers were desirable without being necessary. ED's and enhancement passes have also caused problems and I am on the fence in including them or not. My current argument is that the above 4 things have caused considerable more damage than ED's or class revamps.

the_one_dwarfforged

08-16-2015, 09:23 PM

Give Cocoon a Verbal component. Increase the number of mobs that can Deafen players (as well as Bewildering Blow). Have a raid boss have large, AoE Deafening attacks as a mechanic.

bewildering blow already prevents using cocoon.

and cocoon isnt really the problem anyway. you have to spend a twist slot on it, and given the amounts of incoming damage you have to stop dpsing completely if its important to you to gain the full healing from it. id say cocoon is fairly balanced.

sure it creates less dependency on dedicated healers, but thats a good thing to a point. the game isnt fun if no one can do anything by themselves at all...

the_one_dwarfforged

08-16-2015, 09:29 PM

Fix AC mechanic.
Remove PRR/MRR

Return Fortification maximum to 100%.

prr was added and buffed so that melees could actually be melees... having an avoidance only system of defense is very binary, and is not fun. pretty much either you live or you get unlucky and youre dead. or, you die a lot and sometimes you get lucky and live... prr is a very good thing, is perhaps a bit on the strong side.

nothing is wrong with fortification, and idk what would be gained by capping at at 100. enemies bypass fort sometimes very significantly (sdk assassins, mod archers), so having a 0% chance to get crit actually takes some investment which could take away from your character in other areas. if you are suggesting that both prr be removed and that fort be capped at 100% while enemies continue to bypass it, all we get is constant one shots.

redoubt

08-16-2015, 10:33 PM

Remove auto stat and level regen from both mobs and players.
Make con 0 = death (but also remove the insane levels on con damage some mobs are doing now.)
Make other stat 0 = stun that is not removed until someone else raises your stat above 0.

There are a lot of things that could (and likely should) be done, but most would create much crying of nerf. Overall, the inflation in the game of everything has put us where we are today, its a hard horse to rein in.

On the whole, I think it will take many steps to get back to a point where the Devs can even consider making content that requires a healer. The first step is going to be doing things that reward having a healer, without forcing a group to wait around for one. If this is done well enough we might see more people playing more of a healer role (and I don't mean healbot.) Once a health population of characters who capable of high level healing exists, you can begin making quests that need that capability.

There are a couple ways you could define needing healing capacity.
1. Back to a more old school specialization where dps does not self heal and a healer does that. I don't think this would be the way to go.

2. Keep a variety of quests in which self sufficient characters can go without a healer, but also some where self sufficient characters we have today, need some help (not complete babysitting) to stay alive.

Other ideas that could be done to boost diverse parties (a bit of a sidebar, I know) would be to:
- further boost trap bonus and make traps more deadly.
- add more optionals (not main objectives) which reward keeping NPCs alive (and those NPCs can be healed.)
- look for places to increase the desire for buffs. As it stands today, no one really cares about getting buffs. Sure they are nice to have, but no one misses them any more. As an example, people used to love having a bard in the shroud because of the damage boost.

Qhualor

08-16-2015, 10:45 PM

bewildering blow already prevents using cocoon.

and cocoon isnt really the problem anyway. you have to spend a twist slot on it, and given the amounts of incoming damage you have to stop dpsing completely if its important to you to gain the full healing from it. id say cocoon is fairly balanced.

sure it creates less dependency on dedicated healers, but thats a good thing to a point. the game isnt fun if no one can do anything by themselves at all...

not really a sacrifice twisting Cocoon. of course, there are other things I would rather twist but its a low cost twist that only 1 build has trouble using it. its low hanging fruit that only costs an augment slot and a twist slot. its actually pretty powerful in comparison to how difficult the game has become. ranger lives I was using that instead of CSW spell. paladin lives I was using it over CSW spell. rogue lives I was using it over tactical play and heal scrolls. anybody use wands anymore? heal scrolls are out of combat because Concentration checks in epics suck. its really not that hard to skip a beat to cast Cocoon on yourself because you do more dps alive than dead. if you have decent damage mitigation than you can survive more hits and less reasons to lose 2 seconds of dps to cast Cocoon.

JOTMON

08-16-2015, 10:46 PM

Clerics have just fallen off the mark as the goto party healer.
Cleric Mass heal is sh..aving cream... too slow a casting animation to ever be useful in combat.
Healers are lacking any useful temporary HP boosters with heal spells (AID sucks beyond low level heroics), regeneration and other heal over time components.

Warlock can aoe temp HP to a party which in may cases will help a party more when you have bursts of incoming damage
Druids can cover regen over time with vigor.. even if it only for 8 seconds.. and still effectively CC trash.

No clerics are interested in chugging pots just to get through endgame content..
Cleric enhancements need to have sla heals, temp HP, regerations, faster cooldowns for death penalty removal

at the end of the day .. clerics just don't have what it takes anymore..

Qhualor

08-16-2015, 10:52 PM

prr was added and buffed so that melees could actually be melees... having an avoidance only system of defense is very binary, and is not fun. pretty much either you live or you get unlucky and youre dead. or, you die a lot and sometimes you get lucky and live... prr is a very good thing, is perhaps a bit on the strong side.

nothing is wrong with fortification, and idk what would be gained by capping at at 100. enemies bypass fort sometimes very significantly (sdk assassins, mod archers), so having a 0% chance to get crit actually takes some investment which could take away from your character in other areas. if you are suggesting that both prr be removed and that fort be capped at 100% while enemies continue to bypass it, all we get is constant one shots.

PRR was added because the devs couldn't get AC to work properly. how many changes to AC were made before they went with the current to-hit system and added PRR? PRR seems to be something the devs have an easier time to code and make it work better than AC, but in epics any front line fighter needs high PRR if they want to go toe to toe with mobs.

I think fortification has gone over board now. you can get 200%+ now. are we really fighting the kind of mobs that can bypass 100% or more? that's just silly. I don't have a problem with mobs being able to bypass some per cent of fortification that could result in big crit numbers. we do it to them all the time and most mobs in DDO don't have 100% fortification.

the_one_dwarfforged

08-16-2015, 11:21 PM

not really a sacrifice twisting Cocoon. of course, there are other things I would rather twist but its a low cost twist that only 1 build has trouble using it. its low hanging fruit that only costs an augment slot and a twist slot. its actually pretty powerful in comparison to how difficult the game has become. ranger lives I was using that instead of CSW spell. paladin lives I was using it over CSW spell. rogue lives I was using it over tactical play and heal scrolls. anybody use wands anymore? heal scrolls are out of combat because Concentration checks in epics suck. its really not that hard to skip a beat to cast Cocoon on yourself because you do more dps alive than dead. if you have decent damage mitigation than you can survive more hits and less reasons to lose 2 seconds of dps to cast Cocoon.

cocoon is good, but you stop getting healed by it once the 150 temp hp is gone. that can happen very fast on ee. if you are trying to say that you cast cocoon, stand in one spot dpsing, and dont lose that temp hp due to dmg, you must not be playing ee.

PRR was added because the devs couldn't get AC to work properly. how many changes to AC were made before they went with the current to-hit system and added PRR? PRR seems to be something the devs have an easier time to code and make it work better than AC, but in epics any front line fighter needs high PRR if they want to go toe to toe with mobs.

I think fortification has gone over board now. you can get 200%+ now. are we really fighting the kind of mobs that can bypass 100% or more? that's just silly. I don't have a problem with mobs being able to bypass some per cent of fortification that could result in big crit numbers. we do it to them all the time and most mobs in DDO don't have 100% fortification.

devs couldnt get ac to work because it doesnt work in a real time setting with superinflated dmg numbers. you really cant fault them on that one.

iirc the recommended fort for ee mod was 240%. so yes, there are trash mobs that can bypass 100%+ fort. and yes that is an extreme case, meaning you dont always need that much fort allowing you to spec in other areas, though if you did run with 240% fort all the time, it just means you wont get crit ever, a marginal gain for the investment given the prevalence of self healing.

EllisDee37

08-17-2015, 12:26 AM

Maybe sidestep the healing aspect and focus on immunities instead. Like, say, give divines an aoe immunity to all poisons spell, 1 minute per caster level, that essentially undoes the silliness introduced in MotU. (Same for disease.)

That's of course not enough to make healers needed, but thinking along those lines. What effects do we just have to suffer through? Spellward slow? Maybe divine auras (cleric & fvs, but not paladin) grant immunity to the slow effect?

How about those stinger things from howlers?

Stuff like that. Have divines be able to grant the whole group quality of life improvements by mitigating annoying game mechanics.

J-mann

08-17-2015, 02:10 AM

PRR was added because the devs couldn't get AC to work properly. how many changes to AC were made before they went with the current to-hit system and added PRR? PRR seems to be something the devs have an easier time to code and make it work better than AC, but in epics any front line fighter needs high PRR if they want to go toe to toe with mobs.

I think fortification has gone over board now. you can get 200%+ now. are we really fighting the kind of mobs that can bypass 100% or more? that's just silly. I don't have a problem with mobs being able to bypass some per cent of fortification that could result in big crit numbers. we do it to them all the time and most mobs in DDO don't have 100% fortification.

Prr is pretty much required in the current game for melees to stand a chance. Prior to prr the only melees that were cutting it were ones stacked to the gills in avoidance AND had push button heals that could pretty much 0 to full em in one cast. THAT was why ranged ruled, simply because they really didnt get hit becuase the mob AI is so terrible that you can circle kite them to death easy.

Op, why on earth should a "healer" (there are none in ddo and dnd btw, there are divines, totally different from the abomination that is the mmo healer) be required outside of raid content? I dont see people trying to make rangers, or barbs, or pallies be required why should "healers" be? And if you do how do you make a "healer" need anyone else? Or do we just go back to the FvS glory days? The biggest reason divines are on the way side now has less to do with heals, and more to do with what they offer as a package has been nerfed continually and outdated. Firstly, divine spells are grossly underpowered in the current epic game, its almost laughably sad to see how little they do. Secondly, many divine buffs have been all but neutered in content (remove poisons gimped, no immunities, fom nerfed hard, and the distinct lack of decent cc for divines).

That all being said, however, divines are still MORE than welcome, they really are a boon in reducing down time on my melees, because, unlike what many forumites like to pretend, cocoon is not that great a heal in EE content, where many mobs can wipe cocoon off you in one or two hits, so If I need to use cocoon, and im desperate, I am usually removed from combat for a decent period of time while the spell works.

Chai

08-17-2015, 02:34 AM

Eth

08-17-2015, 03:34 AM

That all being said, however, divines are still MORE than welcome, they really are a boon in reducing down time on my melees, because, unlike what many forumites like to pretend, cocoon is not that great a heal in EE content, where many mobs can wipe cocoon off you in one or two hits, so If I need to use cocoon, and im desperate, I am usually removed from combat for a decent period of time while the spell works.

Not disagreeing with what you said, but having only cocoon as a self-heal mechanic on EE is generally a very bad idea on a melee. ;)

Wh070aa

08-17-2015, 04:54 AM

The biggest reason divines are on the way side now has less to do with heals, and more to do with what they offer as a package has been nerfed continually and outdated. Firstly, divine spells are grossly underpowered in the current epic game, its almost laughably sad to see how little they do. Secondly, many divine buffs have been all but neutered in content (remove poisons gimped, no immunities, fom nerfed hard, and the distinct lack of decent cc for divines).

Completely agree. Almost no divine buffs actually mater right now, and other options are vastly superior to them. Divine spell casting needs major overhaul. Most clerics are not even bothering to buff right now. FoM is a joke, and remove poison is the same. And I am not even touching on targeting , and DC issues, or endgame. Seriously as of right now I prefer playing healer ranger or paladin, because they have more relevant buffs, and effective heals (as in they don't stand still for 3 minutes, and over heal 10 times the hp needed).

slarden

08-17-2015, 05:24 AM

cocoon is good, but you stop getting healed by it once the 150 temp hp is gone. that can happen very fast on ee. if you are trying to say that you cast cocoon, stand in one spot dpsing, and dont lose that temp hp due to dmg, you must not be playing ee.

Yep cocoon is great because it gives all fleshy builds access to some level of self healing. It's not enough by itself for the most difficult content.

Getting rid of cocoon kills alot of build diversity but doesn't solve anything. People will just migrate to other builds that have self healing and there will be some attrition because people get frustrated when their builds stop working and they are forced to respec.

Deadlock

08-17-2015, 05:35 AM

So we need a discussion on this because there's a horde of disgruntled healing class who can no longer find a group?

Where have this horde been hiding? I only ask because back in the day when 2 healers for Elite Shroud was the norm, we would sit for ages waiting on them to make an appearance.

Remove the level cap on cleric buffs, make the buff type unique (e.g. Divine) so it stacks with everything and augment their spell book with buffs that matter for current game mechanics such as buffs to MRR and PRR. Make these new divine spells sufficiently high level that you can't get them by splashing 2 levels.

And if you want to encourage more people to play clerics, give them a stacking 1% XP bonus for every cleric level in your build and an individual XP bonus the first time they rez a character in any quest :)

Qhualor

08-17-2015, 06:08 AM

cocoon is good, but you stop getting healed by it once the 150 temp hp is gone. that can happen very fast on ee. if you are trying to say that you cast cocoon, stand in one spot dpsing, and dont lose that temp hp due to dmg, you must not be playing ee.

devs couldnt get ac to work because it doesnt work in a real time setting with superinflated dmg numbers. you really cant fault them on that one.

iirc the recommended fort for ee mod was 240%. so yes, there are trash mobs that can bypass 100%+ fort. and yes that is an extreme case, meaning you dont always need that much fort allowing you to spec in other areas, though if you did run with 240% fort all the time, it just means you wont get crit ever, a marginal gain for the investment given the prevalence of self healing.

I do stand there and take the hits while dpsing on EE. all I use is Cocoon and in rare times use heal scrolls. like I said, you just need decent damage mitigation which isn't hard to get.

I don't see it that way about AC and fortification. I don't expect the devs to figure something different out at this point in the games life but I still think its silly that AC is virtually useless but they still offer boosts in past lives and gear, its not hard to get well over 100% fort and damage mitigation revolves around PRR/MRR. leveling a 10 warlock/1 fighter right now with 42 PRR with no sheltering of any kind and 170% fort. ive only had to heal myself a few times while leveling. in epics on any character I could get ~200% fort and 90ish PRR without sheltering items of any kind and could stand and fight on EE healing myself once in awhile.

Faltout

08-17-2015, 06:19 AM

The other thread is too hot button, starts off on the wrong foot and I think this topic could and should be discussed seriously without the flaming. So I'm asking people to keep it civil and have a real buckle down and figure something out type of discussion.

First of all we should talk about ways to empower the healing role that are more impactful than current but are not "wait around an hour with 11 players waiting for a healer to join" impactful, because returning to those days is not what I or most people want... So how to do that? Well surprisingly the answer might be staring us in the face, most of the bits and pieces needed for that (healing oriented abilities) are already part of the game, we just need to make a couple additions in the harder difficulty settings and/or new content that are not "instant outrage" hotbuttons.
First of all the idea you have is very poorly thought.
1. You add yet another damage type that bypasses protections. Who doesn't love that, right? Especially with all the existing damage types that bypass such protections when they shouldn't. (like drow poison when you have poison immunity, chain missiles when you have shield, etc.)
2. You are discussing a greater difficulty like it's a given.
3. The effects from this "damage" are total annoyances. We play to be challenged, not to be annoyed. For example the CON drain in Ghosts of Perdition that makes you helpless is somewhat of an annoyance. Coupled with the lich avengers that move in superspeed, knock everyone down with an AOE attack that does full force damage and stun with a DC >100.
4. From what you propose, the solution is a heal scroll. So, every couple of seconds you'll need to scroll heal yourself in order to keep your abilities (skills, damage, etc.). If that's not plain annoying, I don't know what is. It's not hard, it's just annoying.

Secondly, in the quoted part and the thread title you mention "without nerfs or retroactive changes". You are turning a blind eye to the problem or you don't understand the problem. Waiting for a healer is what the people complaining WANT.
Now, that healer is not only one class. Almost anyone could heal before power creep. Scrolls with 75% effectiveness, cures from paladins, rangers, druids. So many classes that can heal without the need to have 500 temp HP every 30 seconds or 12 sp fast healing, or cheap full heal SLAs.
When you don't have a healer, you can still complete the quest but in a slower pace because you'll need to heal between fights, you'll need someone to use healing abilities while you fight, you'll need to approach the fights differently pulling couple of mobs at a time.
What people want is the game to be challenging again and the healer to actually make things noticeably easier. Not the roflstomping of content that most players do.

Thus the need for nerfs. Bringing more monster power creep instead of toning down the classes is NOT the right way to go since it further increases the gap between player power. (the gap is already huge with the item power creep, past lives power creep, multiclassing power creep)

Qhualor

08-17-2015, 06:21 AM

Prr is pretty much required in the current game for melees to stand a chance. Prior to prr the only melees that were cutting it were ones stacked to the gills in avoidance AND had push button heals that could pretty much 0 to full em in one cast. THAT was why ranged ruled, simply because they really didnt get hit becuase the mob AI is so terrible that you can circle kite them to death easy.

Op, why on earth should a "healer" (there are none in ddo and dnd btw, there are divines, totally different from the abomination that is the mmo healer) be required outside of raid content? I dont see people trying to make rangers, or barbs, or pallies be required why should "healers" be? And if you do how do you make a "healer" need anyone else? Or do we just go back to the FvS glory days? The biggest reason divines are on the way side now has less to do with heals, and more to do with what they offer as a package has been nerfed continually and outdated. Firstly, divine spells are grossly underpowered in the current epic game, its almost laughably sad to see how little they do. Secondly, many divine buffs have been all but neutered in content (remove poisons gimped, no immunities, fom nerfed hard, and the distinct lack of decent cc for divines).

That all being said, however, divines are still MORE than welcome, they really are a boon in reducing down time on my melees, because, unlike what many forumites like to pretend, cocoon is not that great a heal in EE content, where many mobs can wipe cocoon off you in one or two hits, so If I need to use cocoon, and im desperate, I am usually removed from combat for a decent period of time while the spell works.

in todays game, yes, PRR is required. because the devs couldn't figure out how to make AC work, all or nothing, they came up with PRR. the biggest problem I have with PRR is that if you don't have evasion or a way to keep blur/displace/ or some kind of damage avoidance constantly going than you will take damage almost every hit. how much damage you take depends on your mitigation. this is unlike in PnP.

at one time there was roles. people played tanks, healers, DC casters, CC, support melees, support healers, trappers, etc. the only role people complained about was healers. healers wanted to do more than stand in the back and others wanted to have someone watching their back while they dps'd. I welcome anybody that wants to play a healer and I don't see it as a waste of a party slot. I do think they need a bone thrown at them improving Battle Clerics and Divine casters, but I always thought it went too far when the devs made it so all other classes are capable of doing the same thing as a healer and buffer making it so clerics were less needed or wanted.

Forzah

08-17-2015, 06:30 AM

the only role people complained about was healers. healers wanted to do more than stand in the back and others wanted to have someone watching their back while they dps'd.

Perhaps the most important reason why people do not want to play healer is because they get the blame when the party wipes.

Vellrad

08-17-2015, 06:33 AM

1. Mass silence won't just stop cocoon. It will stop all people with blue bars from doing anything. We need no more caster nerfs.
2. I'd prefer to give cleric, fvs etc. some fun spells and abilities, that are not boring spam mass hjeal until boss is dead.
https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Revealing_Mark :

Revealing Mark
40m Range
Fast
Tactical Skill
Skill Type: Debuff
Mark an enemy so that allies can gain health when they attack it.

You may only mark one target at a time.
On any damage:
Return 15% of damage
Cost: ... Power
Toggle Skill
http://rift.wikia.com/wiki/Chloromancer

Lifebound Veil - Best used with Synthesis to heal a Single Target.
Damage dealt by the Mage heals up to 5 party or raid members for a small portion of the damage done. Heals significantly more using Life damage. Heals significantly less using area effect damage. Lasts 1h.
Lifegiving Veil - Best used to heal party or raid.
Damage dealt by the Mage heals up to 5 party or raid members for a small portion of the damage done. Heals significantly more using Life damage. Heals significantly less using are effect damage. Lasts 1h.
Also, each damage dealt by chloromancer is converted to healing for his allies.
http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Fire-lore

Fire-lore
40m Range
Tactical Skill
Resistance: Tactical
Skill Type: Fire
Debuffs enemies' physical attack damage.
-10% Melee Damage
Duration: 30s
Cost: ... Power
http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Essay_of_Exaltation

Essay of Exaltation
10.2m Range
Immediate
Tactical Skill
Radius: 10m
Ground-targeted skill that applies a Morale bubble as well as a powerful Heal-over-time to affected allies.

+Bubble potency and +Healing per attunement consumed.
Applies a damage preventing bubble granting x temporary Morale.
Duration: 12s
Heals x Morale initially.
Heals x Morale every 3 seconds for 10 seconds.
Returns to Neutral Attunement
Cost: ... Power
Cooldown: 40s

Wizza

08-17-2015, 06:42 AM

Why is people so opposed to nerfs? Sometimes nerfs are necessary and I think this is one of those times.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 08:52 AM

I don't see this game ever going back to the point where a dedicated healer is needed. Love it or hate it, I don't see it happening.

That said, groups I find myself in may not wait for a divine type but certainly don't turn them away. The only ones that are frowned upon in upper circles of player skill are those that just play heal bots. If I am doing damage, killing and healing the group then that makes the group overall better as those that can self-heal don't have to stop swinging, dismiss rage, equip a scroll, etc, etc. They can just go full on crazy while I mass heal and do my own thing. I've run with others that also do this as a Cleric or FvS, those players are very welcome in groups. Healbots are a waste of a party slot most times.

What should happen. Since we are giving self healing to every character type, Divines need more DPS options. They don't all need to be direct DPS. I do like Rebuke Foe and how it overall adds to the groups DPS. Maybe a mix of some direct DPS and some increasing the party DPS would make Divines more popular to have in a group.I hope the game never gets to the point where content is designed that needs a dedicated any particular type of character. As is healers are nice to have, if competently played, but not essential for pretty much anything. Same can be said for trappers, same for CC, etc.. Which is a good place for the game to be as nobody really needs anyone else to play, yet everyone has the capability to contribute vs the content.

I dislike the direction of the OP as it makes everyone's chance of success disproportionately dependent of certain build types playing in specific manners. Giving more weight to one type of character both being in the group and being played competently. The whole concept of inconveniencing everyone Else's game to make certain players feel less unneeded is, IMO, broken in it's own way. In the same light that we should never expect anyone to play the healbot role we should expect anyone to play the role of healedbot.

Wh070aa

08-17-2015, 09:38 AM

Why is people so opposed to nerfs? Sometimes nerfs are necessary and I think this is one of those times.

Nerfs break builds. I tend to do a less viable build, and add on some crutches, to not totally suck. If you nerf stuff (or change stuff), you break awful lot of builds, making a lot of characters useless.
It makes you feel like the game is punishing you.

Remember 90% of people are complaining about like 2 or 3 builds that are overpowered, but when they nerf, they nerf all the flower snifers, and non OP builds.

And if they nerf something it will be base class features (like remove poison, or warforged immunities), not the power creep tomes, items ,and ship buffs, punishing the newer and non-minmaxer players again.

Each nerf pushes people to minmax, and enjoy their game less. At least the way P2W games do it, with their pay for power creep items.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 09:38 AM

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 09:59 AM

Its a community issue, not a game issue. People didn't want to wait for a party, a healer, or any other specific class. This is what it turned into. The game was better when we didn't absolutely have to wait for a healer, but it was still better to have one. If they dialed it back to that point, would people resist, claiming they need a healer too much again, and cant solo well enough? That really is the bottom line, regardless of how it is sliced game mechanic wise.Personally, I think the game is already at that point for most players and never really was for most of the rest.

I'll also say that it wasn't just waiting around for a healer, but also hoping that "healer" both played and was competent at playing that as their primary role. I believe most people, especially in pugs don't want their entertainment, their success, how they must play, etc., to be dependent on the availability, competence, whim, play style, etc., of that other player.

Wizza

08-17-2015, 10:11 AM

Nerfs break builds. I tend to do a less viable build, and add on some crutches, to not totally suck. If you nerf stuff (or change stuff), you break awful lot of builds, making a lot of characters useless.
It makes you feel like the game is punishing you.

Remember 90% of people are complaining about like 2 or 3 builds that are overpowered, but when they nerf, they nerf all the flower snifers, and non OP builds.

And if they nerf something it will be base class features (like remove poison, or warforged immunities), not the power creep tomes, items ,and ship buffs, punishing the newer and non-minmaxer players again.

Each nerf pushes people to minmax, and enjoy their game less. At least the way P2W games do it, with their pay for power creep items.

Yeah, you have a point about being punished but on the other hand I'd rather nerf the obvious overpowered stuff than Developers introducing new and stupid mechanics everytime to try and balance the game out.

Look at what these Enhancements changes have done, or the new PRR formula. Everything is broken and yet, nothing is being done to solved the issues. Barbarians, Warlocks, Paladins and Mechanics are a joke both in-game and on forum, everyone knows how broken they are and yet, how much time has passed since the changes? Nothing has changed.

You feel like punished but, first of all, these changes should have never made it to live.

Enoach

08-17-2015, 10:15 AM

There are many classes that can fill in the role of a party's primary healer that comes naturally to the class...
Cleric, Bard, Favored Soul, Druid, and Artificer. Wizard, Sorcerer and Artificer also work well for WF/BF parties.

I don't actually see this as a problem of needing to bring back a heavy need of these classes. The problem I see is that gear and even potions have come too far in replacing buffs. I see this constantly where parties I'm in (Lead or Join) where members enter the quest and take off without a care for buffs. The other aspect is the immunity aspect, while I totally understand why permanent/semi permanent Disease and Poison Immunities were actually a bad idea in the game and probably should have been removed long before they were, I still think the spells should have a more lasting lingering effect then they do currently.

I'm talking spells like Barkskin (Natural), Shield of Faith (Deflection) and other such buffs where gear is greater than the cap bonus on the stat, and even worse now that random gear can exceed the stat even during level up.

What this has done has eroded the Buff aspect of the game.

----------------------------
Now in my opinion you need to make buffs comparable with gear options. There should be a choice between getting the buff and gearing permanently.

Another fix I think needed to happen, remove the 50% bonus that spell power has inflicted on Positive Energy spells. Doing this will allow divine classes to have cheaper healing as they won't need to use meta's for anything but DPS.

Next, fix the Attribute damage healing especially for epic mobs personally I think even for PC the 1 minute per negative level is to short. I realize that this may not be a popular position but debuffs should be effective even when used against us. Players now have access to Potions of Restoration so expanding the time to something greater than a minute will not punish the player base but it would also make having someone that can cheaply fix the issue more valuable without making them required.

The game has driven to far in the direction of DPS. Attribute damage should be a viable option. If the issue is that melee versions of this are too powerful, then modify it so that it is a percent chance.

I also don't want to see any build/class be required, but I do agree that traps should be deadly or if anything time consuming to circumvent, right now there are builds that can walk through a trap like it is not there and I'm not just talking about evasion builds. I also agree that healing amplification has swung to far.

Next, expand the Divine Spell list. These spell list should include spells that should be in the divine options that right now are limited to Artificers and Druids and Warlocks. Spells like Magic Weapon and Align Weapon, regenerate and storm of vengeance, and Silence

Additionally add spells that have been missing such as Wind Wall, Sanctuary, Shield Others, Mending and Make Whole. Just to name a few.

-------------------------------
I've been ERing my Cleric lately and I'll be honest I like to be that primary healer and I've not gotten a complaint about not being high on the kill count, or being any sort of drag on the party. Generally I find when comments are made about the ability for a Class to contribute on EE it is usually based on a biased premise.

Chai

08-17-2015, 10:30 AM

Personally, I think the game is already at that point for most players and never really was for most of the rest.

I'll also say that it wasn't just waiting around for a healer, but also hoping that "healer" both played and was competent at playing that as their primary role. I believe most people, especially in pugs don't want their entertainment, their success, how they must play, etc., to be dependent on the availability, competence, whim, play style, etc., of that other player.

"Forced cooperation" is part of what makes D&D what it is. This MMO can become the entity those who do not wish to rely on others at all want it to become, but it will cost the game a sizable portion of its association with D&D concepts in order to make that happen. Other clone MMOs have already mastered the art of delivering games into the market which players solo their way to max level, so Im not sure what drives people to demand that this game become more like those games. Many of its earlier adopters played DDO because of those very differences between it and other clone MMOs. Nowdays some strive to turn DDO into just another one of those games it used to be conceptually different from.

Chai

08-17-2015, 10:37 AM

Why is people so opposed to nerfs? Sometimes nerfs are necessary and I think this is one of those times.

The amount and degree to which self sufficiency would need to be nerfed to bring healing back into the fold as either a needed archetype or a much desired archetype is more than most people playing the game now days would stand for. Since it was primarily the response to their feedback which caused the addition of this much self sufficiency over the past few years, throwing that into full reverse would cause a popcorn famine in the rest of the world, just to supply what would be needed here in the ensuing weeks after that nerf implementation. This is before the consideration of how character respec has a cost associated with it, would be taken into account. .

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 11:15 AM

There are many classes that can fill in the role of a party's primary healer that comes naturally to the class...
Cleric, Bard, Favored Soul, Druid, and Artificer. Wizard, Sorcerer and Artificer also work well for WF/BF parties.

I don't actually see this as a problem of needing to bring back a heavy need of these classes. The problem I see is that gear and even potions have come too far in replacing buffs. I see this constantly where parties I'm in (Lead or Join) where members enter the quest and take off without a care for buffs. The other aspect is the immunity aspect, while I totally understand why permanent/semi permanent Disease and Poison Immunities were actually a bad idea in the game and probably should have been removed long before they were, I still think the spells should have a more lasting lingering effect then they do currently.

I'm talking spells like Barkskin (Natural), Shield of Faith (Deflection) and other such buffs where gear is greater than the cap bonus on the stat, and even worse now that random gear can exceed the stat even during level up.

What this has done has eroded the Buff aspect of the game.Personally, I'm a fan of shorter duration, situational buffs. but that doesn't seem to fit well with the general mind set of the gamer community where everyone pretty much expects to be preforming at peak at all times. Also, the sp cost of most short term buffs generally is out of line with their effects. The cost, in both sp's and time, for a spell like prayer, even if the effect were to be brought up to something actually relevant in the game, is to high for an effect that really is only good for the few seconds the mobs it hits are generally still alive or the time the party members it hits are actually fighting under it's effect.

As far as buffs having greater effect than gear, that just leads to freeing up a gear slot. I prefer it the other way around, where one must choose priorities with gear and cover the rest with lesser effect buffs. That's simply due to the fact that the game gives us limited gear slots, but no such limitation on buffs.

----------------------------
Now in my opinion you need to make buffs comparable with gear options. There should be a choice between getting the buff and gearing permanently.

Another fix I think needed to happen, remove the 50% bonus that spell power has inflicted on Positive Energy spells. Doing this will allow divine classes to have cheaper healing as they won't need to use meta's for anything but DPS.

Next, fix the Attribute damage healing especially for epic mobs personally I think even for PC the 1 minute per negative level is to short. I realize that this may not be a popular position but debuffs should be effective even when used against us. Players now have access to Potions of Restoration so expanding the time to something greater than a minute will not punish the player base but it would also make having someone that can cheaply fix the issue more valuable without making them required.Debuffs that last longer than most encounters just leads to a lot of doing nothing waiting for them to fall off. Their is no real good reason for that. That includes adding it as a mechanic to encourage us to bring particular characters along. If the devs have to do that, it just means they did a poor job of designing those particular characters in the first place.

The game has driven to far in the direction of DPS. Attribute damage should be a viable option. If the issue is that melee versions of this are too powerful, then modify it so that it is a percent chance.

I also don't want to see any build/class be required, but I do agree that traps should be deadly or if anything time consuming to circumvent, right now there are builds that can walk through a trap like it is not there and I'm not just talking about evasion builds. I also agree that healing amplification has swung to far.

Next, expand the Divine Spell list. These spell list should include spells that should be in the divine options that right now are limited to Artificers and Druids and Warlocks. Spells like Magic Weapon and Align Weapon, regenerate and storm of vengeance, and Silence

Additionally add spells that have been missing such as Wind Wall, Sanctuary, Shield Others, Mending and Make Whole. Just to name a few.

-------------------------------
I've been ERing my Cleric lately and I'll be honest I like to be that primary healer and I've not gotten a complaint about not being high on the kill count, or being any sort of drag on the party. Generally I find when comments are made about the ability for a Class to contribute on EE it is usually based on a biased premise.

slarden

08-17-2015, 11:17 AM

Nerfs break builds. I tend to do a less viable build, and add on some crutches, to not totally suck. If you nerf stuff (or change stuff), you break awful lot of builds, making a lot of characters useless.
It makes you feel like the game is punishing you.

Remember 90% of people are complaining about like 2 or 3 builds that are overpowered, but when they nerf, they nerf all the flower snifers, and non OP builds.

And if they nerf something it will be base class features (like remove poison, or warforged immunities), not the power creep tomes, items ,and ship buffs, punishing the newer and non-minmaxer players again.

Each nerf pushes people to minmax, and enjoy their game less. At least the way P2W games do it, with their pay for power creep items.

This. They nerf stupid things that break builds and do nothing to get rid of the OP builds. Divine Grace is an example of a stupid nerf.

Getting rid of cocoon simply pushes people to other self healing builds - it solves nothing.

People moved towards self healing because too many fvs/clerics said it wasn't their job to heal. It wasn't because they were trying to demean clerics. Nobody wanted to join a tough raid with their healer. Let's not forget how we got here.

Some of the same people calling for nerfs also chimed in and said people should build self-sufficient toons instead of depending on others.

Uska

08-17-2015, 11:21 AM

Sadly it's to late the days of needing a healer and this game really resembling D&D are long gone. The only question to ask is are you having fun still? I am but maybe only 10% as much it's why I don't play near as much and if I could find a full time pnp group I probably wouldn't play at all. I wish we needed a party healer, melees, casters and a trap monkey but more people don't want that now and we have to live with it.

Qhualor

08-17-2015, 11:21 AM

PRR was mostly added to make actually wearing armor have more effect. Though, that AC type mechanics in general tend to make for a poor video game was probably also considered.

Most mobs actually have no fortification. Which is okay as most times content has many many more mobs than a group has members with many more hps than those group members have. Mobs also aren't paying customers, so have no real reason to expect the game to entertain them. So the game was set up more to entertain it's players than to put the mobs on exactly the same plane as the players. Which, IMO, is good game design that puts function before form.

Imagine if mobs had better fortification. Groups/players wouldn't be roflstomping content as easily. Yeah, probably good game design to be able to easily crit mobs and players put a small investment in to fortification and only really having to worry about fort bypass Champs and i guses EE MOD. Probably also a good game design to make players feel good they can kill mobs easily enough that aren't in the same ballpark and city in power levels. Talk about boring.

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 11:23 AM

The amount and degree to which self sufficiency would need to be nerfed to bring healing back into the fold as either a needed archetype or a much desired archetype is more than most people playing the game now days would stand for. Since it was primarily the response to their feedback which caused the addition of this much self sufficiency over the past few years, throwing that into full reverse would cause a popcorn famine in the rest of the world, just to supply what would be needed here in the ensuing weeks after that nerf implementation. This is before the consideration of how character respec has a cost associated with it, would be taken into account. .

Probably true, which is why part of the solution is to add new more-difficult content rather than to nerf builds.

I'm with someone else who said that if this new difficulty level comes out and it's really tough and people start complaining that healers are needed again, that the dev response should basically be "deal with it or play a lower difficulty setting".

And I also agree that D&D is supposed to be about roles and teamwork, not 6 people entering a dungeon and all competing with each other for who can face-roll through it the fastest with no real risk of dying.

ThePrincipal

08-17-2015, 11:42 AM

Healing is fine in the current game. Clerics and FVS are always welcome in groups and are fun to play. Gone are the days of the healbot and for good reason.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 11:46 AM

"Forced cooperation" is part of what makes D&D what it is. This MMO can become the entity those who do not wish to rely on others at all want it to become, but it will cost the game a sizable portion of its association with D&D concepts in order to make that happen. Other clone MMOs have already mastered the art of delivering games into the market which players solo their way to max level, so Im not sure what drives people to demand that this game become more like those games. Many of its earlier adopters played DDO because of those very differences between it and other clone MMOs. Nowdays some strive to turn DDO into just another one of those games it used to be conceptually different from.Forced cooperation has never really been a part of D&D. While some DMs may insist on it, that's generally a game, I at least, would prefer to avoid. It basically scripts and waters down the role playing. Frankly, the best PnP RP gaming I've ever experienced, D&D or otherwise, involved not being sure what everyone's agenda actually was and trying to create a situation where their success coincided with mine.

I wont even mention how poorly that goes with a game that is pugged. I don't really see the point of even playing a game where I have to rely on every random person I end up playing with being both competent and on the same page to succeed. Better, that we add to each others chance of success than be dependent on each other for it in a situation where we have absolutely no reason to believe we can be.

While that situation may be fine for raid type content, the general day to day game play shouldn't be tied to it. It simply gets in the way of actually playing to much. DDO simply doesn't have that under layer of "get to know you" grind content MMOs pretty much need, so quest content pretty much have to fill that niche.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 12:13 PM

Imagine if mobs had better fortification. Groups/players wouldn't be roflstomping content as easily. Yeah, probably good game design to be able to easily crit mobs and players put a small investment in to fortification and only really having to worry about fort bypass Champs and i guses EE MOD. Probably also a good game design to make players feel good they can kill mobs easily enough that aren't in the same ballpark and city in power levels. Talk about boring.Trash mobs, yes. Frankly, all they really are meant to be are time sinks and flavorful window dressing. Considering the often hundred's of mobs a party faces in a single quest, to make every mob the equivalent of a character is just a recipe for disaster in a game as all or nothing as far as success goes as DDO is. That's just the nature of the genre.

Qhualor

08-17-2015, 12:29 PM

Trash mobs, yes. Frankly, all they really are meant to be are time sinks and flavorful window dressing. Considering the often hundred's of mobs a party faces in a single quest, to make every mob the equivalent of a character is just a recipe for disaster in a game as all or nothing as far as success goes as DDO is. That's just the nature of the genre.

oh I get it, just don't necessarily agree in its current form. some players like to feel good beating something regardless of how unbalanced the game may be. the feeling usually lasts for awhile, especially if you have a path laid out for yourself to get to an "end point". things slowing you down can be tedious and make you feel like you are falling behind your plan.

I used to play this MLB PlayStation game years ago. I traded for all the best players in the game and beat every single team winning the World Series every year. it was fun always winning, for awhile. than I actually played the game with all players on their respected teams making it more balanced. I got my butt kicked in almost every game. it was frustrating not being unbeatable and not making it to the World Series, but that's what made it fun for me.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 12:29 PM

And I also agree that D&D is supposed to be about roles and teamwork, not 6 people entering a dungeon and all competing with each other for who can face-roll through it the fastest with no real risk of dying.The problem is that MMOs are, for the most part about playing on one's own schedule with, or despite, anyone else who may or may not also be logged in at that time.

Really, DDO raid content best fits with what you see as how D&D should play.

01000010

08-17-2015, 12:35 PM

The intention is NOT to nerf self healing but to restore some of the role of "healer" while keeping it flexible who does it and where it comes from.

This line doesn't actually add up, to "restore" any "role" you have to nerf things that lessen the need for roles, I HATE ROLES!!!! Multiclass Melee Battle Clerics are already extremely extremely strong(yeah I realize most aren't aware of this). Make this change and you can bet people will just start playing more "healer" builds so they can solo. The roles BS and the attitudes that comes with it is one of the primary factors ddo has lost so many players.

1. Add new "Profane" damage types TO SOME mobs/bosses (Reaper and possibly Champs in new EE content?) this new damage type comes in multiple flavors* I see this as a Devils, Demons and Planar/Demi-god like sort of damage, maybe it's what they use to kill Archons from a lore standpoint, and change some monsters to do this new type of stat/level/DOT/Bleeds damages* which can not be resisted by the (lets face it) Overly all powerful Deathward spell. Though DW will still ward against all the normal Negative energy based drains that will still be there.

Geez, are you a glutton for punishment, lvl drain is the most annoying excessive thing in the game and it HURTS a healers ability to contribute to a strong group, a strong group has no problem getting rid of neg lvls after the fight its during the fight they suck, and since the "healer" cant easily tell when someone is neg lvled during the fight itll go unnoticed except in the rare situation when the healers eyes just happen to be on you when you get neg lvld(assuming he can see you at the time, you aren't near 5 others so he can tell who got neged and theres no lag so the effect actually registers on his screen).

This would be even worse than neg lvls if it stacks as you suggest, no way for a "healer" to know how many stacks is on someone at a glance...

Trying to force grouping in EE or raid content by using "role tactics" is dumb, if someone is good enough to pull off EE or raids solo then more power too them, who cares.

2. Heal, Mass Heal, Regeneration Spell (and mass), Radiant Servant Bursts can cure this type of damage fully while healing HP's normally

3. Mass cure Moderate or better (including Angel ED SLA), Reconstruct/mass repair mod, Greater Restoration, Greater Vigor+mass Radiant Servant Aura, Cures XdY stacks of this damage.

4. Restoration, mass cure light, single target repair and cures, Healing spring, vigor and similar spells cure one stack.

I can see little logic in this list, so heal scrolls fix it? Yay umd?

A. this doesn't actually force anyone to be a heal bot, but it does make that role potentially desired again where right now it's scoffed at.

Only Idiots scoff at other players playstyles, only idiot players cant see when others contribute enormously in less subtle ways than dps, who cares? Theyre idiots. Roles are for actors.

B. this is flexible enough that a player in the raid already can switch destinies and allow the raid to go in without a long wait, there will almost always be someone who can play temporary stand-in (Druid, Bard, Paladin in Angel, even), just like the good ol days when most raiders had a healer/alt to swap in when the raid couldn't find a healer. Only this is flexible enough that a DPS toon could go in in a off destiny and contribute reduced DPS (like the aforementioned Paladin being in Angel when they are normally in LD or Crusader) but take care of Profane curse stacks.

What if no one wants to have to switch destinies to play a "healer role"? The good ol days of having to play a character you didn't want to? Only thing good about those days were far more players so you didn't mind having to "play healer" as much because you could take turns and do it rarely.

C. this doesn't devalue being self sufficient and it doesn't cause long waits for healers.

What it would do is just force specific classes/destinies on the soloist or "healer role" lessening the enjoyment and scope of the game.

* possible intriguing effects some of these should only ever be Boss abilities
Creeping Death: a countdown to insta kill that is contagious like the boom in FOT but maybe less contagious like only spreads to 1d3 characters when you splode.
Profaned wounds: bleed style damage ticks please use a different sound than snick-snack.
Subjugated vitality: conventional loss of stats or level drain
Numbing sanity: causes loss of large chunks of skills and "power" (Spell/melee/ranged) that gets worse until skills are zeroed out
Oppressed mind: Reduction of healing amp, and DC's by a % per stack of profane
Tattered Wards: Curse that Suppresses Death Ward so that an increasing % of negative effects can get past per stack (like 10% per stack, so 1 out of 10 gets through per stack up to completely dispelled death ward with 10 stacks)
It Should not be: a long count down until death at which point your character becomes a dangerous Aparition/Revnant kinda like the soul stone guard in Deathwyrm.

Profane is just the most obvious name for it I could think of while writing, lore wise it could be any sort of higher reality Deific planar type of power or multiple types. The key is they aren't blocked by a heroic spell that almost everyone has, and they are cured by the right kinds of healing spells that increase the value of healing as a role.

Speechless, lol.

Chai

08-17-2015, 12:35 PM

Forced cooperation has never really been a part of D&D. While some DMs may insist on it, that's generally a game, I at least, would prefer to avoid. It basically scripts and waters down the role playing. Frankly, the best PnP RP gaming I've ever experienced, D&D or otherwise, involved not being sure what everyone's agenda actually was and trying to create a situation where their success coincided with mine.

I disagree, due to the fact that forced cooperation is written right into the rules. Its not the DM that insists on it on an individual basis, its part of the DMG. Anyone NOT using forced cooperation is using rule zero. Rule as written is forced cooperation.

I wont even mention how poorly that goes with a game that is pugged. I don't really see the point of even playing a game where I have to rely on every random person I end up playing with being both competent and on the same page to succeed. Better, that we add to each others chance of success than be dependent on each other for it in a situation where we have absolutely no reason to believe we can be.

It has worked quite well in many MANY games that are PUGd. The issue is not that forced cooperation cannot work. The issue is self sufficiency has been the theme for far too long to pull the plug on it now to the degree where forced cooperation would become desired or even necessary.

While that situation may be fine for raid type content, the general day to day game play shouldn't be tied to it. It simply gets in the way of actually playing to much. DDO simply doesn't have that under layer of "get to know you" grind content MMOs pretty much need, so quest content pretty much have to fill that niche.

DDO used to be that game in 2011 or so, when forced cooperation was not needed for quests but was needed for raids. It hasn't been needed for raids now in the form of healing for the past three years or so. People are self sufficient now where raids get put together with everyone taking care of their own healing needs.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 12:38 PM

oh I get it, just don't necessarily agree in its current form. some players like to feel good beating something regardless of how unbalanced the game may be. the feeling usually lasts for awhile, especially if you have a path laid out for yourself to get to an "end point". things slowing you down can be tedious and make you feel like you are falling behind your plan.That "end point" is the genre's kool-aid. That's what keeps the majority of players coming back after the initial shine has worn off.

Darkmits

08-17-2015, 12:42 PM

Inexperienced player here, I'd like to also state my opinion:

PRR/MRR is one way to solve the issue. Personally I find it inellegant. Percentage-type bonuses/penalties are always a basis to allow stat inflation, whereas absolute values do not allow in the same degree. I'd find it more elegant if Armor and Shield gave a passive stacking DR X/- that depended on item level and type. This would mean that melee could still be going melee, enemy damage numbers wouldn't need to reach thousands before mitigation so as to move your hit point bar, and subsequently max hit points wouldn't need to also reach five-digit numbers, making in turn every healing spell outside of (Mass)Heal (and ED stuff) useless.

As for having a healer without making it mandatory, this can't exist as a notion in a game where soloing seems to have become the norm for anything outside of EE raids. If healing isn't an absolute necessity, then max dps is the only viable option. The only reason trappers are taken is because traps have been buffed to either disable trap, or group wipe even if everyone saves with Improved Evasion (exaggeration but you get my point)

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 12:48 PM

Geez, are you a glutton for punishment, lvl drain is the most annoying excessive thing in the game and it HURTS a healers ability to contribute to a strong group, a strong group has no problem getting rid of neg lvls after the fight its during the fight they suck, and since the "healer" cant easily tell when someone is neg lvled during the fight itll go unnoticed except in the rare situation when the healers eyes just happen to be on you when you get neg lvld(assuming he can see you at the time, you aren't near 5 others so he can tell who got neged and theres no lag so the effect actually registers on his screen).This isn't exactly, true. Since we can see HPs in the party window a healer can tell by seeing a characters max HPs being lower. It is something they have to be looking for, but an experienced player generally knows when they should be looking.

Jetrule

08-17-2015, 12:56 PM

I am opposed to generating cleric/fvs need. I am all for giving clerics and favored souls more offensive capabilities. The ability to turn undead for a fully turn speced cleric on undead beyond 57 cr would be a great start. The usefulness of the combat focused trees being aided would be a another great benefit. Take the battle priest 9 ap costing 30 second buff, inflame, and extend it out in time while adding some temp hp and incorpreality. Let sacred weapons have a stinking crit multiplier increase. It is only going to work on one weapon.. Then divines are more satisfying to play and the natural benefits that come from having one in party are more commonly experienced.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 12:59 PM

I disagree, due to the fact that forced cooperation is written right into the rules. Its not the DM that insists on it on an individual basis, its part of the DMG. Anyone NOT using forced cooperation is using rule zero. Rule as written is forced cooperation.That must be some other edition than I have played then.

It has worked quite well in many MANY games that are PUGd. The issue is not that forced cooperation cannot work. The issue is self sufficiency has been the theme for far too long to pull the plug on it now to the degree where forced cooperation would become desired or even necessary.For general leveling content? I've yet to play an MMO that can't run out and grind some xp solo in. Being in a group speeds it up sure, but even then specific roles are generally only needed for specific, generally instanced, content. Even then, one is generally limited by the games mechanics to pretty much only be capable of filling the characters types specific role.

DDO used to be that game in 2011 or so, when forced cooperation was not needed for quests but was needed for raids. It hasn't been needed for raids now in the form of healing for the past three years or so. People are self sufficient now where raids get put together with everyone taking care of their own healing needs.I can see that as a valid issue. Though I don't think it's one that they can really fix at this point. Probably, it's something they should have found an answer for in 2004 or so.

01000010

08-17-2015, 12:59 PM

This isn't exactly, true. Since we can see HPs in the party window a healer can tell by seeing a characters max HPs being lower. It is something they have to be looking for, but an experienced player generally knows when they should be looking.

Lol, I suppose memorizing max hitpoints would work KINDA with neg lvls, what about temp health? not just the warlock deal but the tons of other types available, what about the multiple moves now that lower max health x% til rest? What if a paladin equips something anarchic?

Now consider the OPs idea, where it would be happening to everyone at once often and wouldn't affect max health most likely, how do you know when to fix it? 11 people yelling at once in voice? Text spam?

Theres a reason for the health stat and its prominent display.

Edit: Oh yeah, what about stances, temp con buffs, so many things affect max health now that I think about it, guy is raged, beholder dispels it, guys max health drops.
Also, as long as ive played the game ive seen very few "healers" that dispelled negs quickly during fights, just a fact, almost always after fight when a prepared player doesn't usually need it, and I don't blame them, too many factors make negs hard to see barring someone with a ton of negs, and when someone take a ton of negs they are gonna hide behind a pillar where you cant target them to avoid death by spells, lol.

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 01:17 PM

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 01:22 PM

Lol, I suppose memorizing max hitpoints would work KINDA with neg lvls, what about temp health? not just the warlock deal but the tons of other types available, what about the multiple moves now that lower max health x% til rest? What if a paladin equips something anarchic?

Now consider the OPs idea, where it would be happening to everyone at once often and wouldn't affect max health most likely, how do you know when to fix it? 11 people yelling at once in voice? Text spam?

There's a reason for the health stat and its prominent display.Temp HPs don't add to the max HP display, just current hp, so one might have 1034/875 hps displayed, for example. I also, personally, don't have a problem noticing if someone's hps are off and generally would only be looking when I know to expect neg levels to be an issue. generally that means beholder fights where DW isn't useful. It's not as good as it could be, but tends to work for me.

I never said I agreed with the OPs suggestion, quite the opposite actually. Just responding to the quote I was responding to. More a matter of providing a game play tip than anything.

01000010

08-17-2015, 01:25 PM

Wether or not forced grouping was a part of pnp for someone depends on several factors, who the dm was, how many players were playing, did anyone want to play a class that could heal well?

No good dm would force a player to play a class/healer who didn't want to, completely opposes the spirit of the game. Forcing someone into a "role" at the expense of their fun in any game is plain stupid.

But then there are plenty of bad dms I'm sure.

IronClan

08-17-2015, 01:25 PM

Op, why on earth should a "healer" (there are none in ddo and dnd btw, there are divines, totally different from the abomination that is the mmo healer) be required outside of raid content? I dont see people trying to make rangers, or barbs, or pallies be required why should "healers" be?

The OP has nothing in it about requiring anything in fact I'm quite sure you didn't read a single sentence, as it says the exact opposite, I want to continue to not require healers while giving them some aspect where they have a renewed role.

Healer is a general name referring to a role or playstyle, it is more akin to "ranged" or "DC caster" or "nuker" than it is a specific class, so I hope that answers your question about not seeing people trying to make Barbs "required" (though we are going through a class balance pass that is intended to make underpowered classes more viable), though again no one is trying to make anyone "required" the motivation of the OP is that there are people who LIKE contributing by healing (people who enjoy the playstyle, and I used to be one of them, Believe me, being the guy who solo healed Shrouds at 20 cap, was loads more interesting in many ways than being one of the indistinguishable Melee's in the pile) but currently this is almost entirely needless as you're FAR more likely to cast a heal on someone who has already healed themselves or is about to waste their heal/resource because they weren't expecting someone else to heal them, than you are to cast a heal on someone who actually needs it. And even that is fine, as I'm not trying to take away self healing at all, just ad a new damage type that a Healer, spot healer, or support character might be the best at mitigating.

Why care about the Healing role? because the game was more dynamic when it was a desirable role, because DDO is becoming more and more one dimensional with DPS and only DPS mattering. Throwing healers a bone wont bring back the old days, and I'm not trying to do that anyway as I did not enjoy sitting in a 10 or 11 person LFM waiting for a healer, or finding myself talked into swapping to my healer when I didn't need anything in that raid on that toon.

My suggestions are based out of a desire to breath a little life into the healing role, or throw them a bone, restore some additional aspects of that role where they are valued and appreciated for THAT ROLE. The suggestions would also add some new more interesting wrinkles to monster damage. Anyone who values challenge but also thinks it's sane that the heroic 4th level spell Deathward completely obviates multiple powerful forms of damage (stat and level drains AND instant death) coming from Demi-god like planar beings, is not thinking their desire for challenge through.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 01:31 PM

Not really sure what your experiences have been, but D&D was originally designed very much based on roles and forced cooperation. If you wanted healing, you needed a cleric -- self-healing was almost non-existent, you didn't even get much back after sleeping. Traps? Better have a rogue/thief, only they could detect and disarm them. Utility magic? Good luck without a wizard. Etc.

This has changed over time. But even in the latest edition, 5e, you need to have the roles covered in some way for difficult content or you are going to be in trouble. It no longer has to be the classic fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard, but the roles need to be there in some way or someone's going to end up dead and/or a mission unaccomplished.Old school actually and a good DM customized game play to what the party could deal with or the game wasn't much worth playing anyway. Nor was it if it meant playing a character one didn't much want to play. If nobody wanted to fill any particular role, an NPC was always a better option to simply not playing.

There was also no rule that said having a cleric actually meant one got healed. That was always up to whomever played that cleric.

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 01:40 PM

Well obviously the DM can houserule anything. That's why it's called "rule zero".

But it's definitely inaccurate to say that forced cooperation was never part of D&D. All characters are designed to have strengths and weaknesses, and complementary characters are intended to work together in parties. It was and is not anything like DDO where dungeons can be easily soloed by almost anyone with some experience, using cheap and plentiful ways of getting around healing, traps, combat damage and utility magic needs.

Uska

08-17-2015, 01:52 PM

Hoglum

08-17-2015, 01:53 PM

It no longer has to be the classic fighter/cleric/thief/magic user,

Fixed that for you. You're wrong. D&D has always had ways for people to take care of themselves. Even in the earliest editions there were potions of healing/extra healing.

3d8 + 3 or whatever it was for a potion worked just as good as cocoon in DDO since max HP were much lower. Yes, later editions came out with more ways to self heal and such but later editions came out with more ways to do just about everything. There were always ways to be self sustaining in D&D and to say otherwise is simply disingenuous.

D&D also had ways to work around other obstacles.

Door locked? Crash through it.

Trap? Throw a rock into it. Use your 10' pole. Have an unseen servant set it off. Whatever.

Etc.

Uska

08-17-2015, 01:54 PM

Not really sure what your experiences have been, but D&D was originally designed very much based on roles and forced cooperation. If you wanted healing, you needed a cleric -- self-healing was almost non-existent, you didn't even get much back after sleeping. Traps? Better have a rogue/thief, only they could detect and disarm them. Utility magic? Good luck without a wizard. Etc.

This has changed over time. But even in the latest edition, 5e, you need to have the roles covered in some way for difficult content or you are going to be in trouble. It no longer has to be the classic fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard, but the roles need to be there in some way or someone's going to end up dead and/or a mission unaccomplished.

yup in the earlier versions (before 3.x) healing was at a premium and unless you were in a monty haul game healing pots were a rare and wonderful thing horded for a last ditch moment in fact most of the time you didnt know what a potion did

Uska

08-17-2015, 01:55 PM

Old school actually and a good DM customized game play to what the party could deal with or the game wasn't much worth playing anyway. Nor was it if it meant playing a character one didn't much want to play. If nobody wanted to fill any particular role, an NPC was always a better option to simply not playing.

There was also no rule that said having a cleric actually meant one got healed. That was always up to whomever played that cleric.

If a good aligned cleric didnt heal party members espeically people who were suposedly his/her friends he could face concequences for that.

01000010

08-17-2015, 02:00 PM

It was and is not anything like DDO where dungeons can be easily soloed by almost anyone with some experience, using cheap and plentiful ways of getting around healing, traps, combat damage and utility magic needs.

EXACTLY!!!! DDO is not pnp, and it never can be for a million obvious reasons.

A lot of people like to talk about "the good ol days", in reality those days were just when they were new and not good at soloing. Good players were soloing CO6 back when max lvl was 10 and whole groups with "healers" were getting wiped in there all the time.

The game wasn't more fun because some dude in each group was forced to heal because you sucked, it was fun because you sucked and everything was new. Power and knowledge have a price.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 02:02 PM

yeah but without gm's fiat you couldnt solo pnp as easily as you can DDO until higher levels at leastWithout the DMs fiat one can't do anything if you really look at it. They completely control everything that happens in the games environment.

Uska

08-17-2015, 02:05 PM

01000010

08-17-2015, 02:06 PM

No it was fun because you were playing dnd in a group and while I considered myself a good player even then there was a lot I coudlnt solo then and that was due to less powercreep(enhancements werent as powerful then) and scaling didnt exist a quest was harder alone most of the time as it should be. If I was in charge there would only be one difficulty elite and there would be scaling but it would be reversed as the monster would know its easier to kill one than a group.

You can still play in a group, if you are new to game and still suck you still NEED to play in a group...

I solo and I group, depends on mood. Id have it no other way, would you?

IronClan

08-17-2015, 02:07 PM

Getting rid of cocoon kills alot of build diversity but doesn't solve anything.

No one has advocated this that I read, certainly not me. Just pointing this out because stuff like this is usually where these threads turn into flamewars... "WHAT THE OP WANTS TO GET RID OF COCOON! BURN THE WITCH!".

So we need a discussion on this because there's a horde of disgruntled healing class who can no longer find a group?

Where have this horde been hiding?

Strawman, again no ones said anything remotely like this (unless I missed their post, I believe I've read every one of them), turning a nuanced discussion into a binary black and white hyperbole filled one is not the goal. There's already a popcorn healer thread for that.

Completely agree. Almost no divine buffs actually mater right now, and other options are vastly superior to them.

I agree as well, this is an area that they could easilly improve healers without too much trouble.

First of all the idea you have is very poorly thought.
1. You add yet another damage type that bypasses protections. Who doesn't love that, right? Especially with all the existing damage types that bypass such protections when they shouldn't. (like drow poison when you have poison immunity, chain missiles when you have shield, etc.)
2. You are discussing a greater difficulty like it's a given.
3. The effects from this "damage" are total annoyances. We play to be challenged, not to be annoyed. For example the CON drain in Ghosts of Perdition that makes you helpless is somewhat of an annoyance. Coupled with the lich avengers that move in superspeed, knock everyone down with an AOE attack that does full force damage and stun with a DC >100.
4. From what you propose, the solution is a heal scroll. So, every couple of seconds you'll need to scroll heal yourself in order to keep your abilities (skills, damage, etc.). If that's not plain annoying, I don't know what is. It's not hard, it's just annoying.

1. + 3. "annoyances" are generally forum speak for "things that make the game harder/more complex" AKA "things that interrupt my routine of flawless facerolling of content for XP/EN 20th completion lists" that these should only be put into new EE content or Reaper mode is addressed in the OP. my suggestions are from my point of view, my point of view is that the present status quo is becoming too simplistic getting more and more one dimensional and lacking challenge, pretty much obviating what used to be a valued aspect of the game. Naturally your viewpoint is different and you don't want several new forms of damage that can't be mitigated with one 4th level spell, in other words you don't want the game to be deeper and more dynamic... that's fine you're entitled to want DDO to play the way you like, but so am I.

2. Seems inevitable to me though it's not my preference (I'd prefer they fix Hard and Elite to fit their names), so I am going to treat it as a done deal. The alternative is to make Elite and Hard much harder than they currently are, a prospect that would make for big angry "Elite is for easy mode XP, please don't put any "annoyances" into it" mobs.

4. if you want to lose DPS whipping out a heal scroll that's a fine solution for you and others who are like minded. Probably shouldn't act like it's going to be the preferred method, it makes you sound like you've never used one with an EE mob agrro'ed on you before.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 02:10 PM

If a good aligned cleric didnt heal party members espeically people who were suposedly his/her friends he could face concequences for that.I played a priest of Loki and did pretty much whatever I liked.:P

Also, if a good priest did heal those party members and they were evil, they could also face consequences even if they were his/her friends.

While I'm sure neither of those conditions existed in your campaign, I probably wouldn't have played in it just for that reason.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 02:17 PM

No it was fun because you were playing dnd in a group and while I considered myself a good player even then there was a lot I coudlnt solo then and that was due to less powercreep(enhancements werent as powerful then) and scaling didnt exist a quest was harder alone most of the time as it should be. If I was in charge there would only be one difficulty elite and there would be scaling but it would be reversed as the monster would know its easier to kill one than a group.Probably, but you tend give the impression that playing a game to some idyllic standard to be more important than the games popularity, success or entertainment value.

IronClan

08-17-2015, 02:19 PM

Geez, are you a glutton for punishment, lvl drain is the most annoying

Didn't peg you for a "challenge = annoyance" type :)

At a fundamental level losing hit points = "an annoyance" but there needs to be consequences in a game or our decisions don't matter. differing types of damage lead to new and different decisions. gameplay. depth.

I'm not here for Candy crush, I don't like that the 4th level 20 odd minute heroic buff blocks three different types of what are supposed to be really scary high level monster damage. why not just introduce the "block everything" spell

level 6
Block everything
Description: you remember typing IDDQD in Doom? Yeah it's like that...

So naturally a new damage type that can be given to bosses and maybe Reaper mode Champs that in turn "healers" are best at mitigating seems like a natural solution. I can see where "anything but plain hit point damage is an annoyance" types would object to the game getting more complex. So perhaps I should start a healer oriented thread where we talk about giving them better support buffs and maybe aura's that do things automatically instead of requiring them to participate in healing people...

Uska

08-17-2015, 02:20 PM

I played a priest of Loki and did pretty much whatever I liked.:P

Also, if a good priest did heal those party members and they were evil, they could also face consequences even if they were his/her friends.

While I'm sure neither of those conditions existed in your campaign, I probably wouldn't have played in it just for that reason.

yes a good cleric shouldnt heal evil unless it directly advanced the cause of his church. Our gm refused to allow evil characters and when I played with other groups I would leave them and others to play with if evil characters were allowed. As a gm I dont even allow neutral characters as I want people to be heros if peoiple dont like it they can find another group. I found from direct experience allowing evil characters can eventually cause problems. There was a time when we had some new players and one of them caused a henchman to die and then used his body to set off a trap that and other actions caused the cleric to cast know alignment on him and his buddy since they were new to the party they then attacked and killed the cleric thinking to take over the party at which point my good alignened mage killed both it was a very ugly scene since there was hard feelings around for a while it hapened 30+ years ago and I wont play in a game where it is allowed.

01000010

08-17-2015, 02:29 PM

No one has advocated this that I read, certainly not me. Just pointing this out because stuff like this is usually where these threads turn into flamewars... "WHAT THE OP WANTS TO GET RID OF COCOON! BURN THE WITCH!!

Despite what many say on these forums on a build designed for it cocoon is enough healing for anywhere in the game combined with a little skill, you don't have to get rid of it to negate that, just make it so it cant reliably heal even on the builds with maxed cocoon combined with some skill. This is what you are proposing isn't it?

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 02:34 PM

You're wrong. D&D has always had ways for people to take care of themselves.

I'm not wrong, because I never said they didn't have ways to take care of themselves. I said those ways were severely restricted, and that a party with complementary strengths would do much better than one relying on kludges. And that is 100% true and has been from the very first version to the current one.

As a DM I would certainly allow my players to put together an extremely unbalanced party. But they would pay for it, one way or the other. Not out of vindictivness on my part, but because that is the natural consequence of adventuring with an incomplete skillset. So by all means, rely on your 3d8+3 potions instead of a cleric's Mass Heal, or use a 10-foot pole instead of a proper trapper. But don't be surprised when you all die.

The bottom line is that there ARE no characters in P&P that are like the juggernauts that DDO characters have evolved into. There are no bottomless piles of cure potions, "echoes of power", stacks and stacks of cheap heal scrolls, disposable hirelings, etc. The two are night and day except for flavor.

01000010

08-17-2015, 02:37 PM

Didn't peg you for a "challenge = annoyance" type :)

At a fundamental level losing hit points = "an annoyance" but there needs to be consequences in a game or our decisions don't matter. differing types of damage lead to new and different decisions. gameplay. depth.

I'm not here for Candy crush, I don't like that the 4th level 20 odd minute heroic buff blocks three different types of what are supposed to be really scary high level monster damage. why not just introduce the "block everything" spell

level 6
Block everything
Description: you remember typing IDDQD in Doom? Yeah it's like that...

You think neg lvls are a challenge? I don't. I also don't see occasionally hammering my thumb as an exciting challenge to hammering nails, I don't lose my thumb, I can still keep hammering away, its just annoying so I avoid it. Neg Lvls are annoying, can you honestly say you don't find them annoying? Deathward and spell absorbtion can be used sometimes, but I find that annoying too.

Annoyance in place of real challenge isn't my vision for the game personally.

Ive never played candy crush.

Closest thing I can compare neg lvls to in game would be some physical handicap IRL, I doubt id enjoy that challenge either, lol.

Dealing with annoyances is a challenge I suppose.

Darkmits

08-17-2015, 02:43 PM

As a DM I would certainly allow my players to put together an extremely unbalanced party. But they would pay for it, one way or the other. Not out of vindictivness on my part, but because that is the natural consequence of adventuring with an incomplete skillset. So by all means, rely on your 3d8+3 potions instead of a cleric's Mass Heal, or use a 10-foot pole instead of a proper trapper. But don't be surprised when you all die..Problem being that the 3d8+3 potion doesn't scale with anything afaik, but CSW does. This is also one of the reasons why some builds are OP and others are UP. If items also scaled with some statistic, then classes would be closer to each other, reducing the difference between best and worst builds (in combat at least).

Also, another problem is that DDO discourages partying. Why would anyone want to party up when being in a group means that any mistake someone else means costs you 10-20% bonus experience?

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 02:43 PM

yes a good cleric shouldnt heal evil unless it directly advanced the cause of his church. Our gm refused to allow evil characters and when I played with other groups I would leave them and others to play with if evil characters were allowed. As a gm I dont even allow neutral characters as I want people to be heros if peoiple dont like it they can find another group. I found from direct experience allowing evil characters can eventually cause problems. There was a time when we had some new players and one of them caused a henchman to die and then used his body to set off a trap that and other actions caused the cleric to cast know alignment on him and his buddy since they were new to the party they then attacked and killed the cleric thinking to take over the party at which point my good alignened mage killed both it was a very ugly scene since there was hard feelings around for a while it hapened 30+ years ago and I wont play in a game where it is allowed.Sounds like you played with people who took things personally. Frankly, that whole series of events sounds like a hoot to me. Though rather tame compared to the inter-player intrigues in the "Thieves World" based campaign my buddy ran.

01000010

08-17-2015, 02:48 PM

Sounds like you played with people who took things personally. Frankly, that whole series of events sounds like a hoot to me. Though rather tame compared to the inter-player intrigues in the "Thieves World" based campaign my buddy ran.

Paranoia rpg. Some of the pnp rolenazis should try that game.

Coyopa

08-17-2015, 02:53 PM

Problem being that the 3d8+3 potion doesn't scale with anything afaik, but CSW does. This is also one of the reasons why some builds are OP and others are UP. If items also scaled with some statistic, then classes would be closer to each other, reducing the difference between best and worst builds (in combat at least).

Also, another problem is that DDO discourages partying. Why would anyone want to party up when being in a group means that any mistake someone else means costs you 10-20% bonus experience?

You realize the bolded part has been solved in the most recent update, right? If you die, you only cost yourself 10% bonus experience. It no longer affects anyone else. Similarly, hirelings no longer cost anyone 5% bonus experience, either. So, there's no technical reason not to group, anymore. The only reasons not to group depend upon your mood, your available time, your patience, and things like that. I've been grouping a lot more (even before this latest update) and really been enjoying it. It's been a nice change and I'm glad someone around here inadvertently encouraged me to do it. Don't know who or what they posted, but it changed my outlook and I'm really glad for it.

Chai

08-17-2015, 02:57 PM

EXACTLY!!!! DDO is not pnp, and it never can be for a million obvious reasons.

A lot of people like to talk about "the good ol days", in reality those days were just when they were new and not good at soloing. Good players were soloing CO6 back when max lvl was 10 and whole groups with "healers" were getting wiped in there all the time.

The game wasn't more fun because some dude in each group was forced to heal because you sucked, it was fun because you sucked and everything was new. Power and knowledge have a price.

Good players were taking hours to solo co6 on hard, and elite was pretty much a death sentence for a solo character. Possible to solo elite? Sure. Probable? No. Even for the small percentage who could do it, it took a lot longer time wise to make it happen.

It is this dismissing of DDO as not PnP which has been used time and time again in discussion as to why the game needs to be solo-able on the hardest difficulty by players with pedestrian skills and no meta-game knowledge. This game once had marked differences that made it stand out as its own niche entity in the MMO market, but those have been eroded away to the point where playing DDO is feeling like another solo-to-max clone MMO, with the distinct disadvantage that those clone games usually have an endgame where forced cooperation is required, where DDO does not.

The game was more fun when people had to work together to succeed. Example: Shield walling while firing magic missiles at the end boss in STK knowing full well that quest failure was still a possibility, was a lot more fun than rushing forward and swinging blindly knowing full well that success is inevitable, and its just a matter of applying liberal doses of DPS to win.

What happened from that era up to the present, was people DID fail some of the time, came to the forums to gripe about not being able to solo, all the while refusing to run anything lower than elite, and here we are, discussing how multiple roles were eroded into the state of not only not being necessary, but not even being desired, with self sufficient characters and a severe lack of patience to the point where putting together groups is described as a chore people don't want to have to deal with - yet we all want to play an MMO and still want it to resemble its D&D root game. Something has to give there. In order to erode the roles like they have been, the game needed to become less D&D like and more MMO like, and that is the direction it will continue to head.

The sad part is the people who claim its too late to get back what was lost are correct by large degree, as the game has been allowed to slide in this direction for far too long that the ability to solo everything short of a few instances which test that rule has become the status quo, and has been such for long enough now that any movement in the other direction would be met with bridge protests and angry mobs. The hilarity which ensued with the introduction of monster champions shows how quickly and how fiercely people will defend the current state of the "must solo everything" DDO game which has emerged out of the ashes of what it used to be. The amount of adjustments needed to make playing of roles in groups desired would go need to go far beyond that point, and would make monster champions, and the hilarious amount of hyperbole which ensued afterwards, look like another quiet day at the office.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 02:59 PM

I'm not wrong, because I never said they didn't have ways to take care of themselves. I said those ways were severely restricted, and that a party with complementary strengths would do much better than one relying on kludges. And that is 100% true and has been from the very first version to the current one.

As a DM I would certainly allow my players to put together an extremely unbalanced party. But they would pay for it, one way or the other. Not out of vindictivness on my part, but because that is the natural consequence of adventuring with an incomplete skillset. So by all means, rely on your 3d8+3 potions instead of a cleric's Mass Heal, or use a 10-foot pole instead of a proper trapper. But don't be surprised when you all die.

The bottom line is that there ARE no characters in P&P that are like the juggernauts that DDO characters have evolved into. There are no bottomless piles of cure potions, "echoes of power", stacks and stacks of cheap heal scrolls, disposable hirelings, etc. The two are night and day except for flavor.That sounds like vindictiveness to me. As a DM I would tailor game play around what the players wanted to play rather make them pay for not compromising what they consider fun to comply with what some schmoe who sold us the game considered the right way to play. It just seems silly to have less fun than one could be in an activity designed to be fun.

IronClan

08-17-2015, 02:59 PM

Despite what many say on these forums on a build designed for it cocoon is enough healing for anywhere in the game combined with a little skill, you don't have to get rid of it to negate that, just make it so it cant reliably heal even on the builds with maxed cocoon combined with some skill. This is what you are proposing isn't it?

The word cocoon doesn't even exist in the OP, and the first time I've seen it appear is someones suggestion that it have a verbal component that could be suppressed by a sound attack (which again is probably something they would only do for something like a one off Ethereal Dragon or Thundergod themed pack). Nothing about getting rid of it.

The OP should make my stance on self healing clear, I am all for it, I mention not enjoying waiting around for healers in the old days, I just don't think healers (healing role) needs to be as marginalized as it currently is... I think it can be made to be more important, without making it a requirement.

Forzah

08-17-2015, 03:00 PM

Good players were taking hours to solo co6 on hard, and elite was pretty much a death sentence for a solo character. Possible to solo elite? Sure. Probable? No. Even for the small percentage who could do it, it took a lot longer time wise to make it happen.

It is this dismissing of DDO as not PnP which has been used time and time again in discussion as to why the game needs to be solo-able on the hardest difficulty by players with pedestrian skills and no meta-game knowledge. This game once had marked differences that made it stand out as its own niche entity in the MMO market, but those have been eroded away to the point where playing DDO is feeling like another solo-to-max clone MMO, with the distinct disadvantage that those clone games usually have an endgame where forced cooperation is required, where DDO does not.

The game was more fun when people had to work together to succeed. Example: Shield walling while firing magic missiles at the end boss in STK knowing full well that quest failure was still a possibility, was a lot more fun than rushing forward and swinging blindly knowing full well that success is inevitable, and its just a matter of applying liberal doses of DPS to win.

What happened from that era up to the present, was people DID fail some of the time, came to the forums to gripe about not being able to solo, all the while refusing to run anything lower than elite, and here we are, discussing how multiple roles were eroded into the state of not only not being necessary, but not even being desired, with self sufficient characters and a severe lack of patience to the point where putting together groups is described as a chore people don't want to have to deal with - yet we all want to play an MMO and still want it to resemble its D&D root game. Something has to give there. In order to erode the roles like they have been, the game needed to become less D&D like and more MMO like, and that is the direction it will continue to head.

The sad part is the people who claim its too late to get back what was lost are correct by large degree, as the game has been allowed to slide in this direction for far too long that the ability to solo everything short of a few instances which test that rule has become the status quo, and has been such for long enough now that any movement in the other direction would be met with bridge protests and angry mobs. The hilarity which ensued with the introduction of monster champions shows how quickly and how fiercely people will defend the current state of the "must solo everything" DDO game which has emerged out of the ashes of what it used to be. The amount of adjustments needed to make playing of roles in groups desired would go need to go far beyond that point, and would make monster champions, and the hilarious amount of hyperbole which ensued afterwards, look like another quiet day at the office.

It's time for DDO2.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 03:05 PM

Paranoia rpg. Some of the pnp rolenazis should try that game.Call of Cthulhu was a good one too. The big question in that game was whether you would go insane before dying...or after.

Coyopa

08-17-2015, 03:08 PM

The problem with roles in a group, like a dedicated healer, is that you get to the point where groups don't want certain classes. I remember this from EverQuest. My highest level, most fun (for me), character was a druid. I can't tell you the number of times I got rejected by groups because they wanted a cleric for healing, a wizard (or necromancer, whatever) for nuking, etc. It was super frustrating to log on and not be able to find any groups (or be able to put a group together) for any of the characters I had (I had several spread across different levels) and so there would go my time to play that day - all without having gotten to have any actual fun or make any progress on any character. My wife also played EverQuest with me. She had a druid, too, and we would duo wildernesses. The experience was horribly slow and eventually we both just lost interest.

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 03:13 PM

That sounds like vindictiveness to me. As a DM I would tailor game play around what the players wanted to play rather make them pay for not compromising what they consider fun to comply with what some schmoe who sold us the game considered the right way to play. It just seems silly to have less fun than one could be in an activity designed to be fun.

It depends on the circumstances. In most of the games I am involved in, the players form the party at the same time. Making a party that works well together is part of the challenge as I see it. Also, I tend to use premade modules that are balanced on this assumption.

If someone had to leave a group and then a new person came in and wasn't interested in assuming the role filled by the character who left, I'd probably be more flexible. But at the same time, I'm not going to make an entire adventure completely unrealistic because they decide to, for example, go into a 5-level dungeon with no healing or no way to find and disarm traps.

I mostly play 5e and that version has much more flexibility in terms of who can fill roles. Clerics are effective healers, but so are druids and bards, for example. Nobody has to be a "healbot". Similarly, many characters can find and deal with traps. They've made it easier than ever, you don't have to be a rogue. But you have to pay attention to filling the role.

It's up to the group to make a party that is effective, and part of that is negotiation and compromise. I'm willing to bend a little as DM, but I'm not going to bend over backwards.

At any rate, the idea that there are no roles in P&P like in DDO is simply wrong. As it happens, last night my group finished a huge battle at the end of a campaign. We were all carrying some of the best and most expensive potions available.. and we would have wiped for certain if not for the fact that we had a cleric in our party, another as an NPC for part of the fight, and a bard and wizard (with cleric dip) as backup healers.

Chai

08-17-2015, 03:16 PM

Coyopa

08-17-2015, 03:17 PM

It depends on the circumstances. In most of the games I am involved in, the players form the party at the same time. Making a party that works well together is part of the challenge as I see it. Also, I tend to use premade modules that are balanced on this assumption.

If someone had to leave a group and then a new person came in and wasn't interested in assuming the role filled by the character who left, I'd probably be more flexible. But at the same time, I'm not going to make an entire adventure completely unrealistic because they decide to, for example, go into a 5-level dungeon with no healing or no way to find and disarm traps.

I mostly play 5e and that version has much more flexibility in terms of who can fill roles. Clerics are effective healers, but so are druids and bards, for example. Nobody has to be a "healbot". Similarly, many characters can find and deal with traps. They've made it easier than ever, you don't have to be a rogue. But you have to pay attention to filling the role.

It's up to the group to make a party that is effective, and part of that is negotiation and compromise. I'm willing to bend a little as DM, but I'm not going to bend over backwards.

At any rate, the idea that there are no roles in P&P like in DDO is simply wrong. As it happens, last night my group finished a huge battle at the end of a campaign. We were all carrying some of the best and most expensive potions available.. and we would have wiped for certain if not for the fact that we had a cleric in our party, another as an NPC for part of the fight, and a bard and wizard (with cleric dip) as backup healers.

I agree with your approach. The players can be whatever classes they want, but you can't just eliminate anything that challenges any skills or abilities they simply do not have (and, presumably, elected not to have someone cover).

IronClan

08-17-2015, 03:17 PM

Annoyance in place of real challenge isn't my vision for the game personally.

What is real challenge? Losing hit points and healing them in time? Whats the difference between that and stat damage and healing that in time? Or neg levels?

The answer is: they are all the same, just different names. They are a quantity of something that you don't want to lose. If the basic gameplay of my hit points versus their hit points is a "challenge" then so is stat damage, curses, DOT's level drains... it's just an expansion of the same abstractions.

"losing hp is an annoyance"

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 03:22 PM

I agree with your approach. The players can be whatever classes they want, but you can't just eliminate anything that challenges any skills or abilities they simply do not have (and, presumably, elected not to have someone cover).

Thanks. Like most things, the more you bend on this the more you get of it. If I decide to rewrite a campaign because there's nobody who can deal with traps, what am I going to do the next campaign when they show up with, say, 4 sorcerers? In DDO they can all "cheat" by using heal scrolls or play toasters, but in real P&P they are going to be toast in the first combat they can't win by nova'ing.

I played a short campaign this summer where we didn't have a wizard or anyone else capable of utility spellcasting. We thought it wouldn't be a big deal, we could get by with our cleric, barbarian, paladin and sorcerer. We "got by" but it was painful.. and we deserved it, because we knew going in that it was a bad idea.

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 03:25 PM

One point about soloing I haven't seen mentioned: I now find myself soloing specifically so I can actually enjoy the quest. I prefer to group, but over half the time when I join a group now it's a big race to see which warlock can get to the end with the biggest kill count the fastest. I find this boring in the extreme, so I find myself just wanting to solo the content I can.

My current character is a druid so healing and damage are fine, but traps are an issue. I could respec but I really hate the idea of having to start with 2 rogue levels every life to deal with traps. I may have to, though, if I ever want to be able to play quests where the idea is to actually DO the quest rather than "get it over with".

Vellrad

08-17-2015, 03:28 PM

Thanks. Like most things, the more you bend on this the more you get of it. If I decide to rewrite a campaign because there's nobody who can deal with traps, what am I going to do the next campaign when they show up with, say, 4 sorcerers? In DDO they can all "cheat" by using heal scrolls or play toasters, but in real P&P they are going to be toast in the first combat they can't win by nova'ing.

I played a short campaign this summer where we didn't have a wizard or anyone else capable of utility spellcasting. We thought it wouldn't be a big deal, we could get by with our cleric, barbarian, paladin and sorcerer. We "got by" but it was painful.. and we deserved it, because we knew going in that it was a bad idea.

I may get you wrong, but it seems to me, you sacrifice people having fun by forcing one of them to play class they don't like for game to be played 'the way its supposed to be', or else, players are punished for wanting to have fun.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 03:30 PM

The game was more fun when people had to work together to succeed. Example: Shield walling while firing magic missiles at the end boss in STK knowing full well that quest failure was still a possibility, was a lot more fun than rushing forward and swinging blindly knowing full well that success is inevitable, and its just a matter of applying liberal doses of DPS to win. It just seems to me that, outside of a universe in which there are always 5 other players waiting to start every quest in the game on every difficulty utilizing every imaginable play style, that it's better for the game to accommodate what players are actually there to play whatever than to expect the players to compromise their entertainment to comply with the game. It's that entertainment that those players are paying for after all.

To me, waiting around for a healer to join me, just to die anyway when they turn out to be incompetent just isn't something I find worth spending money for, while dying because I turn out to be incompetent at keeping myself healed is. Hell, simply avoiding the sheer boredom that is forming a group in DDO makes it more worthwhile.

While those other players may very well be paying to play the game, they aren't paying me, so I, in no way, feel any obligation towards contributing to their entertainment.

Chai

08-17-2015, 03:33 PM

I agree with your approach. The players can be whatever classes they want, but you can't just eliminate anything that challenges any skills or abilities they simply do not have (and, presumably, elected not to have someone cover).

Agreed. Also, having a party that did not have a full skillset did not eliminate forced cooperation from the menu - it actually enhanced it more. Who was going to trigger the trap if there was no rogue? What contingencies did the party have in place for the worst case scenario of triggering the trap? What healing did the party have available for the person who was being put in danger? Etc...

The DM didn't need to tailor the dungeon to the group. The group had to cooperate to get through the material, whether or not it was a "balanced" group role wise.

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 03:34 PM

I may get you wrong, but it seems to me, you sacrifice people having fun by forcing one of them to play class they don't like for game to be played 'the way its supposed to be', or else, players are punished for wanting to have fun.

I have never once as a DM had a group of players come up to me and say they wanted to play a group where a major role isn't filled. If they did, I'd work with them. But in practice, every time, people find something they want to play and that works with the party. Amazing, isn't it? :)

Sometimes this means someone plays something that wasn't his or her first choice. At least half the time, the person ends up loving the character, playing a class they'd have never tried otherwise.

When I play with my family we usually do it in order by age, the youngest picking first. I go last of the 4 players, unless DMing. I have never failed to find a character that both filled a missing party niche and was fun.

Agreed. Also, having a party that did not have a full skillset did not eliminate forced cooperation from the menu - it actually enhanced it more. Who was going to trigger the trap if there was no rogue? What contingencies did the party have in place for the worst case scenario of triggering the trap? What healing did the party have available for the person who was being put in danger? Etc...

The DM didn't need to tailor the dungeon to the group. The group had to cooperate to get through the material, whether or not it was a "balanced" group role wise.

Exactly.

The DDO approach to missing skillsets is basically brute-forcing (face-trapping) or "cheating" (not really cheating but using cheap resources to hide missing abilities, like stacks of healing scrolls).

If I allow a party to run through a dungeon with no trapper and no plan for dealing with traps, I'm a bad DM.

Chai

08-17-2015, 03:37 PM

It just seems to me that, outside of a universe in which there are always 5 other players waiting to start every quest in the game on every difficulty utilizing every imaginable play style, that it's better for the game to accommodate what players are actually there to play whatever than to expect the players to compromise their entertainment to comply with the game. It's that entertainment that those players are paying for after all.

To me, waiting around for a healer to join me, just to die anyway when they turn out to be incompetent just isn't something I find worth spending money for, while dying because I turn out to be incompetent at keeping myself healed is. Hell, simply avoiding the sheer boredom that is forming a group in DDO makes it more worthwhile.

While those other players may very well be paying to play the game, they aren't paying me, so I, in no way, feel any obligation towards contributing to their entertainment.

That's what playing lower difficulties than elite is for. The issue is not only "refusing to wait for a full party" but its that in combination with "must play the highest difficulty setting". No group? Don't want to cooperate with others? Don't want to wait? No desire to be obligated to play with others? Normal difficulty setting. This allows other players playstyle desired to be catered to as well. Holding elite difficulty as the default difficulty setting everyone should be able to solo, does not work for making any accommodation for players who want to have a group play cooperation experience.

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 03:41 PM

Chai

08-17-2015, 03:45 PM

That ship has sailed. Hardly anyone plays on normal now.

The only hope left is this new "uber" setting. They need to make it NASTY, and when people whine that they can't solo it with Cocoon and heal scrolls, say "play it on elite if you need to".

I think the difficulty settings can be revamped to cater to everyone. I do not feel that a 4 difficulty system where 3 settings are rarely ever used qualifies as "ship has sailed" and nothing can be done. What its doing is catering fully to one group of players while brushing everyone else off. With 4 settings the game can cater to the soloers AND those who want to group and have grouping be desired and much easier than soloing. It just means the solo difficulty everyone plays by default cant be elite.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 03:45 PM

I agree with your approach. The players can be whatever classes they want, but you can't just eliminate anything that challenges any skills or abilities they simply do not have (and, presumably, elected not to have someone cover).So if nobody wants to play the healer, the best option, in your opinion, is to simply not play at all? That just seems silly to me.

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 03:50 PM

I think the difficulty settings can be revamped to cater to everyone. I do not feel that a 4 difficulty system where 3 settings are rarely ever used qualifies as "ship has sailed" and nothing can be done. What its doing is catering fully to one group of players while brushing everyone else off. With 4 settings the game can cater to the soloers AND those who want to group and have grouping be desired and much easier than soloing. It just means the solo difficulty everyone plays by default cant be elite.

From a strictly logical standpoint, this makes sense. But it ignores psychology -- players will much more readily accept 1 (or even 2) tougher difficulties than they will accept a complete rebalancing. Few people will accept being able to run on elite on Tuesday and not on Wednesday, because it makes them feel weaker and that's discouraging.

It makes more sense to just accept the history and implement something new.

So if nobody wants to play the healer, the best option, in your opinion, is to simply not play at all? That just seems silly to me.

As a DM in this case I would give an "are you sure?" to the party and remind them that there are lots of ways to accomplish healing, you don't have to play a healbot. But again, parties usually know instinctively that the role must be filled somehow.

IME real P&P players tend to be far less selfish than MMO players are. Every time I play, people choose characters thinking about the whole group. The rare times that this doesn't happen, it usually becomes clear quickly that the individual isn't a team player in other ways and they end up leaving.

Chai

08-17-2015, 03:51 PM

So if nobody wants to play the healer, the best option, in your opinion, is to simply not play at all? That just seems silly to me.

That's not what that amounts to at all. There are 4 difficulty settings in DDO. Elite being the one everyone can solo is a major part of the issue. Normal and hard can cater to those people who don't wish to group up and still have elite for those who do want to group up.

BigErkyKid

08-17-2015, 03:54 PM

So if nobody wants to play the healer, the best option, in your opinion, is to simply not play at all? That just seems silly to me.

For me the solution is to make playing a healer (or other support classes) interesting, not just to kill most interesting team play with washed out classes.

Why do people like playing DPS classes? Well there might be many other reasons, but at least one is (I think) because they are more interesting that simply "healing". In DDO it is very passive and tedious. Same for trapping, CC (for the most part) and buffing (exception of monk).

Chai

08-17-2015, 04:05 PM

From a strictly logical standpoint, this makes sense. But it ignores psychology -- players will much more readily accept 1 (or even 2) tougher difficulties than they will accept a complete rebalancing. Few people will accept being able to run on elite on Tuesday and not on Wednesday, because it makes them feel weaker and that's discouraging.

It makes more sense to just accept the history and implement something new.

The psychology of entitlement. Can the combination of "must play elite" and "must never fail even when soloing" be explained any other way? It sacrifices other archetypes of players in the market audience in order to maintain that combination as what the game is and continues to erode into.

And that something new can be calling elite the new hard, and making elite incentivize grouping.

As a DM in this case I would give an "are you sure?" to the party and remind them that there are lots of ways to accomplish healing, you don't have to play a healbot. But again, parties usually know instinctively that the role must be filled somehow.

IME real P&P players tend to be far less selfish than MMO players are. Every time I play, people choose characters thinking about the whole group. The rare times that this doesn't happen, it usually becomes clear quickly that the individual isn't a team player in other ways and they end up leaving.

In large part because D&D isn't by default reduced to hack and slash. Each action can be meaningful as the next. Someone can kill zero mobs but get all the traps and gather information from NPCs and be just as valuable to the party as the melee character swinging an ax who would likely have died to the first trap or never gathered the correct info.

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 04:11 PM

The psychology of entitlement. Can the combination of "must play elite" and "must never fail even when soloing" be explained any other way? It sacrifices other archetypes of players in the market audience in order to maintain that combination as what the game is and continues to erode into.

Welcome to MMOs (and the human race in general).

How many times have you heard people say "don't nerf overpowered classes, buff underpowered classes!!!!" even though there is no practical difference aside from further power creep?

Talon_Moonshadow

08-17-2015, 04:18 PM

My first time in the new raid, having a healer in the group felt very valuable.

IMO, that is exactly how you do it; design some fights that limit your mobility and cause the to take a lot of incoming damage. That way having a toon that can rapidly cast mass heals is a valuable asset: not a requirement, but a nice to have asset.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 04:19 PM

That's what playing lower difficulties than elite is for. The issue is not only "refusing to wait for a full party" but its that in combination with "must play the highest difficulty setting". No group? Don't want to cooperate with others? Don't want to wait? No desire to be obligated to play with others? Normal difficulty setting. This allows other players playstyle desired to be catered to as well. Holding elite difficulty as the default difficulty setting everyone should be able to solo, does not work for making any accommodation for players who want to have a group play cooperation experience.Or simply not playing at all. As things stand I can self heal in any content I find worth my time to play. Make it so that my choices are to A) wait for a group or B) play something that's so simple I wont need heals I'll choose C.

Players who want to have a group play cooperation experience are perfectly free to do so with like minded players. I don't see how other options being available prevents that. Frankly, if they are playing something I want to play, I might even join them. If not, I see no reason their desires to play together in a group should prevent me from running whatever it is I actually do want to run. I fail to see how those things are necessarily mutually exclusive.

01000010

08-17-2015, 04:26 PM

What is real challenge? Losing hit points and healing them in time? Whats the difference between that and stat damage and healing that in time? Or neg levels?

The answer is: they are all the same, just different names. They are a quantity of something that you don't want to lose. If the basic gameplay of my hit points versus their hit points is a "challenge" then so is stat damage, curses, DOT's level drains... it's just an expansion of the same abstractions.

"losing hp is an annoyance"

NOT the same, one is super annoying, if its all the same then why overcomplicate it at all? Youre contradicting yourself by saying its all the same but we need to add another layer. If its all the same why bother?

I imagine if theyt implement something as annoying as youre idea thatd be the last straw for some, it would drive me crazy, no doubt in my mind, i would hate another layer of annoyance added in.

And chai? No way, just because most werent posting the showoff vids soloing in ddo early on dont assume it wasnt happening, anyone who came from asherons call and had the habit of buff layering were capable. Do you remember how strong Elemental Protection spells were early on? Several ways to do it, buffs and dps, rog skills and ranged, rog skills and buffs. Traps and mephit hoarde were the dangerous stuff in there, it could be mitigated.

Lets say early on 95% of people sucked, 30% of those 95% quit before they get decent, 30% are incapable of ever getting decent for whatever reason, the other 35% just need time to learn to buff, kite(even while meleeing, do you remember how strong melee kiting was early on? full attack bonus every hit, it got nerfed bad), use tactics both group and solo, takes most a couple years to get good at which point they miss when they werent, lol, hilarious.

If you started off good those werent the good ol days, it was scary how bad most were, no different than a vet compared to a new person nowadays, except back then 95% of community were new skillwise.

The good ol days is a myth, lol.

Talon_Moonshadow

08-17-2015, 04:31 PM

You have to be one of only three classes to start in the Destiny that gives Cocoon; two of those classes already have self healing spells.

Cocoon is nice, but has a long cool down, and unless you have the heal skill, healing amp, devotion type items, maybe feats, etc. to beef it up, is doesn't heal all that well. (but of course you can build for it.)

...but of course... what people are really complaining about is those vets who have all the destinies to twist in Cocoon....
... or otherwise have self healing from some source.....

...don't get hurt anyway, cause of gear and past lives to beef up defenses...

etc. etc. etc.

face it. The vets who have it all are not going to need a healer.... period, ever... nerf it all you want they won't need your toon.

Nerfs are no fun at all. They infuriate those who built for something they thought was cool.

Needing others is no fun at all either.

Working together "is" fun, helping each other is fun.

But needing others is not.

No, no, no! I am not for nerfing self healing in any way.
I am not for needing any specific class.

I am for tough (new) end game content, that encourages bringing friends and makes healers valuable.

Content design is how you make various types of toons valuable to have along.

(just remember, new content comes slowly, and just because the single new highest level raid nerfs your build, it does not mean your build is nerfed.....people need to stop acting like one new raid kills the whole game for their favorite toon.... and stop building one trick ponies anyway IMO.)

Chai

08-17-2015, 04:32 PM

Welcome to MMOs (and the human race in general).

How many times have you heard people say "don't nerf overpowered classes, buff underpowered classes!!!!" even though there is no practical difference aside from further power creep?

naaaa, most MMOs at least have a dungeon instance game and raid endgame which requires groups. They have "solo to max level" in the outdoor theme park areas, and people who don't want to group can run daily quests and fetch quests.

Now combine the two issues.

Don't nerf OP classes, while at the same time making elite the default must-be-able-to-solo-difficulty, and what happens?

Anyone who thinks the game needs to be more engaging on the highest difficulty than those conditions experiences the issue. If hard or normal was substituted for elite, those who do not wish to group still get their way ,while those who want to group can have the game cater to them as well.

Im fine with people wanting to play the game like a single player game, as long as this is not relegated to what the top tier difficulty setting offers. This is an issue that will need to be solved before incentivizing grouping can begin. If the new difficulty is rolled out and it has better rewards or higher XP, that too will be eroded on the forums, using the same reasoning - we should all be able to get all rewards, even when soloing and refusing to play any kind of role in a group.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 04:42 PM

As a DM in this case I would give an "are you sure?" to the party and remind them that there are lots of ways to accomplish healing, you don't have to play a healbot. But again, parties usually know instinctively that the role must be filled somehow.

IME real P&P players tend to be far less selfish than MMO players are. Every time I play, people choose characters thinking about the whole group. The rare times that this doesn't happen, it usually becomes clear quickly that the individual isn't a team player in other ways and they end up leaving.Maybe it's just that my experience involves playing the game with whatever group happens to show up that night, which could be anywhere from one to about a dozen players, playing whichever of their characters happens to be in the right level range for whatever the content that whomever ends up DMing has ready to play. Oh and we play old school AD&D if that matters.

I really don't know how it can be considered selfish to want to play a character that fits the image or RP personality that inspired one to make the character in the first place. In my experience, players generally don't feel the same sense of excitement about characters made simply to fill a party role and are generally seen as little more than a collection of stats and abilities on a character sheet.

BigErkyKid

08-17-2015, 04:46 PM

Im fine with people wanting to play the game like a single player game, as long as this is not relegated to what the top tier difficulty setting offers. This is an issue that will need to be solved before incentivizing grouping can begin. If the new difficulty is rolled out and it has better rewards or higher XP, that too will be eroded on the forums, using the same reasoning - we should all be able to get all rewards, even when soloing and refusing to play any kind of role in a group.

It is simply impossible. You cannot have something that plays equally well alone and with groups. They have tried, they called it dungeon scaling.

Soloists are going to be mad if they cannot finish everything on their own equally efficiently as alone. Turbine simply needs to take a stand.

So far it has been self sufficiency, half arsed scaling mechanics and general power creep. It doesn't seem to be very appealing to a large fraction of the player base, who like me are starting to take longer breaks between updates when they simply not log in.

Chai

08-17-2015, 04:49 PM

And chai? No way, just because most werent posting the showoff vids soloing in ddo early on dont assume it wasnt happening, anyone who came from asherons call and had the habit of buff layering were capable. Do you remember how strong Elemental Protection spells were early on? Several ways to do it, buffs and dps, rog skills and ranged, rog skills and buffs. Traps and mephit hoarde were the dangerous stuff in there, it could be mitigated.

Lets say early on 95% of people sucked, 30% of those 95% quit before they get decent, 30% are incapable of ever getting decent for whatever reason, the other 35% just need time to learn to buff, kite(even while meleeing, do you remember how strong melee kiting was early on? full attack bonus every hit, it got nerfed bad), use tactics both group and solo, takes most a couple years to get good at which point they miss when they werent, lol, hilarious.

The good ol days is a myth, lol.

Those days were as I explained they were, and far from being a myth. There were people soloing elite like I stated earlier, but it was not anywhere near the degree it is now. And also like I stated before it took a lot more time to solo elite in that era too, to the point where people seeking xp/min didn't run elite. First, a player had to run normal and hard just to open elite. Then they had to make sure they NEVER got crowd controlled. FOM was on one piece of gear back then and running a raid was needed to get it. The vast majority did not have it. Being held = auto-crit - and basically was a death sentence. Being level drained hurt a lot more. Debuffs were permanent. Mob AC was not always hittable on a roll of a 2. Weapons with effects on them were a lot more rare, and DR breakers even more rare. Cold iron of pure good was not a trash weapon like it is nowdays, it was worth tons of plat, and was a needed item for a melee to solo co6. There was also no dungeon scaling back then. Entering solo =/= less mobs with less HP like it does now. Solo players still had to face the full compliment of mobs in the dungeon designed for 4 players.

If you started off good those werent the good ol days, it was scary how bad most were, no different than a vet compared to a new person nowadays, except back then 95% of community were new skillwise.

There were many people who joined DDO due to the FPS style experience it provides. Not everyone was from a turn based RPG only background. The difference between the percentage of players who can reliably solo elite now compared to that era is not even remotely close. The failure rates of those who tried in comparison is also not even close between those two eras. Its a night -vs- day comparison. Since 2011 or so, elite content that cannot be defeated on the first try in the game is defeated on the forums shortly thereafter.

Chai

08-17-2015, 04:57 PM

It is simply impossible. You cannot have something that plays equally well alone and with groups. They have tried, they called it dungeon scaling.

With 4 difficulty settings, it certainly is possible. It worked from 2006 - 2010 or so.

Soloists are going to be mad if they cannot finish everything on their own equally efficiently as alone. Turbine simply needs to take a stand.

Yes indeed.

So far it has been self sufficiency, half arsed scaling mechanics and general power creep. It doesn't seem to be very appealing to a large fraction of the player base, who like me are starting to take longer breaks between updates when they simply not log in.

That's a major part of the issue. People outline that they must be able to get highest favor and highest Xp possible while soloing elite or the soloists will move on. What do they think those who want to group, who the solo game does not engage are doing?

Qhualor

08-17-2015, 05:01 PM

Or simply not playing at all. As things stand I can self heal in any content I find worth my time to play. Make it so that my choices are to A) wait for a group or B) play something that's so simple I wont need heals I'll choose C.

Players who want to have a group play cooperation experience are perfectly free to do so with like minded players. I don't see how other options being available prevents that. Frankly, if they are playing something I want to play, I might even join them. If not, I see no reason their desires to play together in a group should prevent me from running whatever it is I actually do want to run. I fail to see how those things are necessarily mutually exclusive.

remember that DDO was dialed down to your level of game play through various changes over the past several years. when elite started to become the default setting due to how easy it became to defeat, some players asking for that difficulty to be beefed up were and still are told to intentionally nerf themselves or don't play. some suggestions have been thrown around to bring back healers, but that's only because players are stopped short by players like yourself that wont drop down a difficulty and comfortable right where you are. we have 4 difficulty settings but the highest setting cant be improved because players like yourself wont compromise cornering upper management to pick their battles and go where the money is right now. Turbine already lost a lot of true elite players so they cant afford to unsettle the community by going back on the path that worked better than what is happening now.

sorry, I don't feel bad if there could be a chance that you might not be able to play on elite without a group. or that you can get a group together and might require some actual team play and strategy where its easier that a bard/cleric/fvs/ranger/paladin would be your best source of healing. that should tell you something about your play style. you always revert to your options being either waiting for a group or not being able to play. you have more options, but you are unwilling to choose options C, D, E, F, etc.

Chai

08-17-2015, 05:01 PM

Or simply not playing at all. As things stand I can self heal in any content I find worth my time to play. Make it so that my choices are to A) wait for a group or B) play something that's so simple I wont need heals I'll choose C.

In a 4 difficulty setting game, that's not the limit of choices available.

Players who want to have a group play cooperation experience are perfectly free to do so with like minded players. I don't see how other options being available prevents that. Frankly, if they are playing something I want to play, I might even join them. If not, I see no reason their desires to play together in a group should prevent me from running whatever it is I actually do want to run. I fail to see how those things are necessarily mutually exclusive.

When elite is the default "must be able to solo" setting, there is no setting which engages group play. Just like you saying people CAN play that way, you could also play hard or normal, and elite could be for those who want to group.

01000010

08-17-2015, 05:03 PM

Those days were as I explained they were, and far from being a myth. There were people soloing elite like I stated earlier, but it was not anywhere near the degree it is now. And also like I stated before it took a lot more time to solo elite in that era too, to the point where people seeking xp/min didn't run elite. First, a player had to run normal and hard just to open elite. Then they had to make sure they NEVER got crowd controlled. FOM was on one piece of gear back then and running a raid was needed to get it. The vast majority did not have it. Being held = auto-crit - and basically was a death sentence. Being level drained hurt a lot more. Debuffs were permanent. Mob AC was not always hittable on a roll of a 2. Weapons with effects on them were a lot more rare, and DR breakers even more rare. Cold iron of pure good was not a trash weapon like it is nowdays, it was worth tons of plat, and was a needed item for a melee to solo co6.

No way. The difference between the percentage of players who can reliably solo elite now compared to that era is not even remotely close. The failure rates of those who tried in comparison is also not even close between those two eras. Its a night -vs- day comparison. Since 2011 or so, elite content that cannot be defeated on the first try in the game is defeated on the forums shortly thereafter.

Well, i think earlier you actually contradicted me and said co6 was only being solod on hard early on, thats simply not accurate.

Ofc noone ran it for xp/min, lol, there was no repeat penalty, i literally lvled one to 10 doing 1 quest a few times...

Even today E is rarely best xp/min, UNLESS you are in a strong group(yet you all say theres no reason to group?).

Special weaps were not rare if you ran c06 often, vorpals dropped like candy in there, they actually had to nerf the drop rate, and back then banisher in there would kill in a a few hits if it had a good crit range and autokilled, WOP rapier? Cake.

I said in the early days maybe 5% could solo elite? Thats a big maybe, but im not going to narrow %s down to less than 5% ranges.

That was my point, the game is easier today, but also there are a far greater % of good players than back then because most players arent new.

Have a guy in my guild thats pretty new, it took him about a week to get exremely good at the game, that is not how it usually goes, i know other players that have played years he runs circles around, he wouldve been soloing E in 2006, no doubt in my mind.

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 05:08 PM

Maybe it's just that my experience involves playing the game with whatever group happens to show up that night, which could be anywhere from one to about a dozen players, playing whichever of their characters happens to be in the right level range for whatever the content that whomever ends up DMing has ready to play.

Yes. That makes a huge difference, and is likely responsible for the difference in our approaches.

I tried "RL PUGging" for the first time this year. I met some very nice people, but mostly learned that I really don't like it. (I do like PUGging in DDO.)

I really don't know how it can be considered selfish to want to play a character that fits the image or RP personality that inspired one to make the character in the first place. In my experience, players generally don't feel the same sense of excitement about characters made simply to fill a party role and are generally seen as little more than a collection of stats and abilities on a character sheet.

It's not selfish as in "you're a jerk". It's a matter of whether or not one takes into account the needs of others in designing a character. I do see your point though.

Anyone who thinks the game needs to be more engaging on the highest difficulty than those conditions experiences the issue. If hard or normal was substituted for elite, those who do not wish to group still get their way ,while those who want to group can have the game cater to them as well.

Im fine with people wanting to play the game like a single player game, as long as this is not relegated to what the top tier difficulty setting offers. This is an issue that will need to be solved before incentivizing grouping can begin. If the new difficulty is rolled out and it has better rewards or higher XP, that too will be eroded on the forums, using the same reasoning - we should all be able to get all rewards, even when soloing and refusing to play any kind of role in a group.

I don't disagree with you. I just think you are being unrealistic. There would be far more people unhappy about the difficulties being rebalanced than a new harder one being put in. It would also be much harder to market "rebalanced difficulties" rather than "new DEATH CHALLENGE MODE!"

So I would love to see what you want, but I don't think it will happen, and I'd rather see an improvement that will.

Chai

08-17-2015, 05:13 PM

Well, i think earlier you actually contradicted me and said co6 was only being solod on hard early on, thats simply not accurate.

Ofc noone ran it for xp/min, lol, there was no repeat penalty, i literally lvled one to 10 doing 1 quest a few times...

Even today E is rarely best xp/min, UNLESS you are in a strong group(yet you all say theres no reason to group?).

Special weaps were not rare if you ran c06 often, vorpals dropped like candy in there, they actually had to nerf the drop rate, and back then banisher in there would kill in a a few hits if it had a good crit range and autokilled, WOP rapier? Cake.

That was my point, the game is easier today, but also there are a far greater % of good players than back then because most players arent new.

Have a guy in my guild thats pretty new, it took him about a week to get exremely good at the game, that is not how it usually goes, i know other players that have played years he runs circles around, he wouldve been soloing E in 2006, no doubt in my mind.

So needed to farm co6 in order to solo co6? :p

Finding a weapon with cold iron and pure good on it was rare in those days. Like 1m plat rare. WoP were rare as well. Banishers in the level 10 endgame?

I said in the early days maybe 5% could solo elite? Thats a big maybe, but im not going to narrow %s down to less than 5% ranges.

That supports the "good ol days" not being a myth.

Its not like some of this wasn't expected, but the level in which it was eroded to the point where people just solo elite and call it a day needs not be the status quo in order to do anything like the OP asks.

Chai

08-17-2015, 05:18 PM

I don't disagree with you. I just think you are being unrealistic. There would be far more people unhappy about the difficulties being rebalanced than a new harder one being put in. It would also be much harder to market "rebalanced difficulties" rather than "new DEATH CHALLENGE MODE!"

So I would love to see what you want, but I don't think it will happen, and I'd rather see an improvement that will.

It already did happen once. It would need to happen again for something like what the OP asks for to fly. Accepting soloing elite as the games status quo will prompt people to defeat any new difficulty on the forums if it is not soloable in game.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 05:24 PM

That's a major part of the issue. People outline that they must be able to get highest favor and highest Xp possible while soloing elite or the soloists will move on. What do they think those who want to group, who the solo game does not engage are doing?I would think they would be grouping with each other as, last time I checked, the option to group was still in the game.

Chai

08-17-2015, 05:27 PM

I would think they would be grouping with each other as, last time I checked, the option to group was still in the game.

As you outlined youd choose to not play a game that doesn't engage you as a player if you had to play hard or normal. By elite being the default solo difficulty, the game does not engage any group, and your own definition would cause you to leave under those circumstances, as you explained a few posts ago in this thread. Whats not being admitted here is the combination of "must always run elite" and "must be able to solo" kills the game as much if not more than having a difficulty setting for each type of player ever would.

Coyopa

08-17-2015, 05:46 PM

So if nobody wants to play the healer, the best option, in your opinion, is to simply not play at all? That just seems silly to me.

No. There are hireling in PnP, too. Heck, there are even henchman. You can go that route (and I allowed it as a DM). What I found with players is those who don't want to play the cleric don't understand that a cleric can do a lot more than just heal. Clearly, you're pretty limited in your perspective, which tells me quite a lot.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 05:50 PM

remember that DDO was dialed down to your level of game play through various changes over the past several years. when elite started to become the default setting due to how easy it became to defeat, some players asking for that difficulty to be beefed up were and still are told to intentionally nerf themselves or don't play. some suggestions have been thrown around to bring back healers, but that's only because players are stopped short by players like yourself that wont drop down a difficulty and comfortable right where you are. we have 4 difficulty settings but the highest setting cant be improved because players like yourself wont compromise cornering upper management to pick their battles and go where the money is right now. Turbine already lost a lot of true elite players so they cant afford to unsettle the community by going back on the path that worked better than what is happening now.

sorry, I don't feel bad if there could be a chance that you might not be able to play on elite without a group. or that you can get a group together and might require some actual team play and strategy where its easier that a bard/cleric/fvs/ranger/paladin would be your best source of healing. that should tell you something about your play style. you always revert to your options being either waiting for a group or not being able to play. you have more options, but you are unwilling to choose options C, D, E, F, etc.Except I generally am already playing in EH. While I can play EE, at least some EE, when in a proper sphere. That's generally more the exception than the rule. While EN is pretty much a cake walk not worth bothering to play at all if it's the only option. For heroics I generally always at least two man content as I can't open elite in those, or run whatever difficulty I can open and moving on. FYI, six of my nine characters are at least partially of those classes, which has a lot to do with why I can solo them.

What I fail to understand is how the ability to solo content prevents those who like to group from doing so. Scaling should take care of issues with content being to easy in a group and if not, maybe that's what we should be discussing.

redoubt

08-17-2015, 05:52 PM

Lots of interesting things to talk about. I don't have time to even get all the way through, but I have a couple comments from the half way point.

Not disagreeing with what you said, but having only cocoon as a self-heal mechanic on EE is generally a very bad idea on a melee. ;)

That is the life of an assassin. Heal scrolls are nice out of combat, but using them in combat isn't really an option, so its coccon.

So we need a discussion on this because there's a horde of disgruntled healing class who can no longer find a group?

Where have this horde been hiding? I only ask because back in the day when 2 healers for Elite Shroud was the norm, we would sit for ages waiting on them to make an appearance.

Remove the level cap on cleric buffs, make the buff type unique (e.g. Divine) so it stacks with everything and augment their spell book with buffs that matter for current game mechanics such as buffs to MRR and PRR. Make these new divine spells sufficiently high level that you can't get them by splashing 2 levels.

And if you want to encourage more people to play clerics, give them a stacking 1% XP bonus for every cleric level in your build and an individual XP bonus the first time they rez a character in any quest :)

Used to take 2 healers on shroud normal! And then a bard and an arcane and lots of ranged characters. I remember taking my cleric into the shroud and we would talk about who was primary. One cleric would auto cycle mass heal and the other would stand back and spot heal. Then you would trade for the next round. I loved the level of coordination we used to use in this game.

I do like your idea of removing the buff caps.

Personally, I'm a fan of shorter duration, situational buffs. but that doesn't seem to fit well with the general mind set of the gamer community where everyone pretty much expects to be preforming at peak at all times. Also, the sp cost of most short term buffs generally is out of line with their effects. The cost, in both sp's and time, for a spell like prayer, even if the effect were to be brought up to something actually relevant in the game, is to high for an effect that really is only good for the few seconds the mobs it hits are generally still alive or the time the party members it hits are actually fighting under it's effect.

As far as buffs having greater effect than gear, that just leads to freeing up a gear slot. I prefer it the other way around, where one must choose priorities with gear and cover the rest with lesser effect buffs. That's simply due to the fact that the game gives us limited gear slots, but no such limitation on buffs.Debuffs that last longer than most encounters just leads to a lot of doing nothing waiting for them to fall off. Their is no real good reason for that. That includes adding it as a mechanic to encourage us to bring particular characters along. If the devs have to do that, it just means they did a poor job of designing those particular characters in the first place.

Again, I like the idea of opening up the buffs.

The debuffs that last longer than the encounter are fine. You have the choice to continue on without removing it if you want. In todays game, I think most people would just soldier on with the debuff and let it expire as they go. That said, can you really say that the auto regen was not a proxy nerf to healing classes? Same for all the extra healing that has been brought into the game. The classes that get healing spells automatically have seen one of their unique (because they are better at it) abilities made trivial.

This. They nerf stupid things that break builds and do nothing to get rid of the OP builds. Divine Grace is an example of a stupid nerf.

Getting rid of cocoon simply pushes people to other self healing builds - it solves nothing.

People moved towards self healing because too many fvs/clerics said it wasn't their job to heal. It wasn't because they were trying to demean clerics. Nobody wanted to join a tough raid with their healer. Let's not forget how we got here.

Some of the same people calling for nerfs also chimed in and said people should build self-sufficient toons instead of depending on others.

Yes, the wrong things are often what gets nerfed.

There were often groups with sp potion buy ins. People used to give the healers potions, stacks of scrolls, wands, plat. These things started dying away and people expected the healers to fund all this stuff on their own. Back then we were not as rich as we are now. It was expensive. This fueled the fire that led to the burning down of the healer group.

Forced cooperation has never really been a part of D&D. While some DMs may insist on it, that's generally a game, I at least, would prefer to avoid. It basically scripts and waters down the role playing. Frankly, the best PnP RP gaming I've ever experienced, D&D or otherwise, involved not being sure what everyone's agenda actually was and trying to create a situation where their success coincided with mine.

I wont even mention how poorly that goes with a game that is pugged. I don't really see the point of even playing a game where I have to rely on every random person I end up playing with being both competent and on the same page to succeed. Better, that we add to each others chance of success than be dependent on each other for it in a situation where we have absolutely no reason to believe we can be.

While that situation may be fine for raid type content, the general day to day game play shouldn't be tied to it. It simply gets in the way of actually playing to much. DDO simply doesn't have that under layer of "get to know you" grind content MMOs pretty much need, so quest content pretty much have to fill that niche.

I pug all the time. My normal group is one guildie and I plus how ever many pugs join our group. 99% of the time we are out front moving quickly, but still getting most optionals, ransack, conquest etc and dominating the group. We don't need other people to make our 1-28 zerg happen, but I like to bring others and sometimes we meet some nice new people. But we are both solo capable and don't even need to run with each other, but we find the game boring to solo. We already know the stories, we know where the mobs will be, where the traps are etc. (I'll be honest, I'm excited about the expansion coming to SWTOR because I can go do a new story.)

Getting back to my point, how often do we actually rely on the pugs in our groups? On my main, never. On alts I don't play, I sometimes do.

The game used to require you to rely on the others in your group. I worked fine back then and was actually fun. But no one was in the constant hamster wheel race to 28 and back again, so running quests that took more than an hour was normal and enjoyed.

You think neg lvls are a challenge? I don't. I also don't see occasionally hammering my thumb as an exciting challenge to hammering nails, I don't lose my thumb, I can still keep hammering away, its just annoying so I avoid it. Neg Lvls are annoying, can you honestly say you don't find them annoying? Deathward and spell absorbtion can be used sometimes, but I find that annoying too.

Annoyance in place of real challenge isn't my vision for the game personally.

Ive never played candy crush.

Closest thing I can compare neg lvls to in game would be some physical handicap IRL, I doubt id enjoy that challenge either, lol.

Dealing with annoyances is a challenge I suppose.

You can create an argument that anything set as an obstacle to completion is just an annoyance. Heck, the map could be an annoyance, the boss could be an annoyance, losing hp could be an annoyance.

These things were once integral parts of the game difficulty. So what has changed? My money is that fast, max xp completions are so common and are expected that anything that throws us off our timeline of 1-28 in a week (which is way less than 1-10 was at launch) is now considered an annoyance. It is only because you know you will beat the quest anyway and these things slow you down. They are like speed bumps. If you went into every quest not sure you would complete, these things would not annoy you. You would see them as part of the difficulty of the quest.

On life in the pug scene:

Many people who post here stay in guild channels a lot and I don't blame them. I, on the other hand am in a very small guild and live 3 time zones away from the rest of my guild. I pug a lot. I find I have one of two play experiences when I pug.

1. I run a self sufficient solo capable DPS character and all goes well. Other people can make it faster or maybe I'm carrying people. If people bring CC or heals or trap skills, that is a great addition.

2. I run a healer or a CC focused character. I build these to be excellent at those tasks. When I bring them with a guild group all is well, but in a pug its a ****-shoot. These days I frequently find myself wishing the other people in the pug could actually put out some DPS. I'm in the back casting mass hold and it still takes a long time for stuff to die. I get bored, start spamming insta-kills instead and drink a few pots, complete, drop group and go back to my main. Same on my healer. The dps when spec'd into these roles is poor and you rely on the others in the group. In high end guild channels, I'm sure its fine to do so, but in pugs, it can be frustrating.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 05:55 PM

When elite is the default "must be able to solo" setting, there is no setting which engages group play. Just like you saying people CAN play that way, you could also play hard or normal, and elite could be for those who want to group.Scaling should make it engage group play.

Also, we have raids that should be doing that.

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 06:00 PM

What I fail to understand is how the ability to solo content prevents those who like to group from doing so.

It doesn't prevent it, just makes it significantly more difficult for pretty obvious reasons: smaller pool of potential teammates, and an overall attitude that if you can't faceroll the content solo you are "inferior", which deemphasizes even attempting to work as a group.

Uska

08-17-2015, 06:04 PM

No. There are hireling in PnP, too. Heck, there are even henchman. You can go that route (and I allowed it as a DM). What I found with players is those who don't want to play the cleric don't understand that a cleric can do a lot more than just heal. Clearly, you're pretty limited in your perspective, which tells me quite a lot.

I loved playing a cleric in PnP as well and it took me a while to school a couple of guys in one group who thought I should only carry healing spells and stay back and heal that in 2nd edition I was probably the most powerful person in the party in everything but stealth and traps. didnt mind healing and I use to love playing clerics here. I still play clerics in PnP although its not in a d&D game or even pathfinder but anohter system which I wish what we ere based on.

Qaliya

08-17-2015, 06:18 PM

As an aside, the folks talking about wanting to only play the classes they want in P&P would have really enjoyed old school "6 times 3d6 in order" stat allocation. ;) The entire point there was, as I mentioned, forcing players to be creative.

IronClan

08-17-2015, 06:20 PM

NOT the same, one is super annoying, if its all the same then why overcomplicate it at all? Youre contradicting yourself by saying its all the same but we need to add another layer. If its all the same why bother?

On the contrary adding another layer adds complexity of gameplay (depth) more opportunities for more choices (choices are gameplay and vice versa at a fundamental level), more kinds of ways to deal with things AKA more roles more builds more styles to explore...

There is nothing contradictory about wanting another layer, I don't contradict myself when I say I want a double cheeseburger instead of a single cheesburger... Having more than 1 form of damage that matters, giving healing an somewhat increased role they excell in while not making it so binary that they are required, seems like a worth while goal to me.

"one is super annoying" is not a reasoned argument, it's a subjective statement. They are the same in function and one's "annoyance level" over the other is purely determined by the fact that you don't want the depth or challenge or expanded healing role they might add to the game.

This is not just about the role of healers being marginalized, DC casting is fast heading in the same direction, CC is as well, one of the games more well known Melee's dropped tactics because tactical CC is now more trouble than it's worth in his opinion and a day later every Forum Version player is parroting what he did and trying to tell everyone that there's no use for tacticals in EE. CC casters are rarer and rarer... AOE nuking is now be a Warlock or be gimp... It's not just about marginalizing healing.

01000010

08-17-2015, 06:37 PM

On the contrary adding another layer adds complexity of gameplay (depth) more opportunities for more choices (choices are gameplay at a fundamental level), more kinds of ways to deal with things AKA more roles more builds more styles to explore...

There is nothing contradictory about wanting another layer, I don't contradict myself when I say I want a double cheeseburger instead of a single cheesburger... Having more than 1 form of damage that matters, giving healing an somewhat increased role they excell in while not making it so binary that they are required, seems like a worth while goal to me.

"one is super annoying" is not a reasoned argument, it's a subjective statement. They are the same in function and one's "annoyance level" over the other is purely determined by the fact that you don't want more depth or challenge to the game than the super simple "only need DPS any more" direction the game is heading.

This is not just about the role of healers being marginalized, DC casting is fast heading in that direction, CC is as well, one of the games more well known Melee's dropped tactics because tactical CC is now more trouble than it's worth in his opinion and a day later every Forum Version player is parroting what he did and trying to tell everyone that there's no use for tacticals in EE. CC casters are rarer and rarer... AOE nuking is now be a Warlock or be gimp... It's not just about marginalizing healing.

IT is a contradiction to want a doublecheesburger rather than a single you already possess if you just told everyone they are the same 2 minutes ago, lol.

My saying something is annoying is EXACTLY as reasoned an arguement as you saying it isnt, and it is not more challenging to me, just annoying, of course annoyance is subjective and challange is relative to skill.

CC is huge in ddo, that statement is crazy(yes, thats subjective too), lol. Just because some idiot wanted to make a video of him beating a weak redname 2 seconds faster than someone else who has an overall stronger character in every other scenario doesnt mean cc is useless.

Needlessly purposely making anything overcomplex is annoying to me, you dont have to strive toward complexity, it happens all on its own, lol.

01000010

08-17-2015, 06:41 PM

AOE nuking is not warlock only, thats just what all the forum clones are repeating atm because its easy. Easy is not always strongest, its simply something everyone can do decent with, just another fotm thing, gives average players a way to compete, good business.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 06:47 PM

No. There are hireling in PnP, too. Heck, there are even henchman. You can go that route (and I allowed it as a DM). What I found with players is those who don't want to play the cleric don't understand that a cleric can do a lot more than just heal. Clearly, you're pretty limited in your perspective, which tells me quite a lot.What a cleric can do has a lot less to do with it than what a cleric is. Frankly, the only "cleric" I ever really got into playing was a multi-class thief/priest of Loki, mostly because it was character I was actually inspired to make. Others I tried were nothing to me but stats on a character sheet with no real RP/story hook.

How you describe them actually tells me a lot too and I think it's more a completely different perspective more than a limited perspective that's involved. In other words, I know quite well the capabilities, it just wasn't, generally, something I was interested in basing a character around.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 07:24 PM

Again, I like the idea of opening up the buffs.

The debuffs that last longer than the encounter are fine. You have the choice to continue on without removing it if you want. In todays game, I think most people would just soldier on with the debuff and let it expire as they go. That said, can you really say that the auto regen was not a proxy nerf to healing classes? Same for all the extra healing that has been brought into the game. The classes that get healing spells automatically have seen one of their unique (because they are better at it) abilities made trivial.Frankly, I don't think anything as integral to game play as healing is should be that limited. Especially in a game like DDO that has no natural regen over time mechanic.

As far as just soldering on, well when one's choice is to continue going with 10+ negative levels stacked up or go watch a sitcom while they expire, I tend to think a shorter duration is in order.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 07:39 PM

It doesn't prevent it, just makes it significantly more difficult for pretty obvious reasons: smaller pool of potential teammates, and an overall attitude that if you can't faceroll the content solo you are "inferior", which deemphasizes even attempting to work as a group.So, I should take a hit in my game play so you have a bigger pool of people to play with in yours? All I can say to that is at least soloing doesn't require me to force the cooperation of other to practice. Not that I would make your pool any bigger anyway. It would just mean I would log in to see if any guild groups I'm interested in joining are up and then, more often than not just logging off. I'm already not very inclined to pug and making my health bar dependent on someone I have absolutely no reason to trust it to sure wouldn't make me more so. If you want to increase the size of that pool a carrot would do more good than a stick IMO.

As far as the second part, I'm sure those players who feel that way will eventually graduate from high school and learn that what the cool kids think never really mattered.

Gremmlynn

08-17-2015, 08:30 PM

On the contrary adding another layer adds complexity of gameplay (depth) more opportunities for more choices (choices are gameplay and vice versa at a fundamental level), more kinds of ways to deal with things AKA more roles more builds more styles to explore...

There is nothing contradictory about wanting another layer, I don't contradict myself when I say I want a double cheeseburger instead of a single cheesburger... Having more than 1 form of damage that matters, giving healing an somewhat increased role they excell in while not making it so binary that they are required, seems like a worth while goal to me.

"one is super annoying" is not a reasoned argument, it's a subjective statement. They are the same in function and one's "annoyance level" over the other is purely determined by the fact that you don't want the depth or challenge or expanded healing role they might add to the game.

This is not just about the role of healers being marginalized, DC casting is fast heading in the same direction, CC is as well, one of the games more well known Melee's dropped tactics because tactical CC is now more trouble than it's worth in his opinion and a day later every Forum Version player is parroting what he did and trying to tell everyone that there's no use for tacticals in EE. CC casters are rarer and rarer... AOE nuking is now be a Warlock or be gimp... It's not just about marginalizing healing.Personally, I have little issue with adding another level of game play. I just would rather see it added to all characters. Adding new effects that only some characters can deal with and likely wont have their own icons to let those characters know they need to be dealt with is just imposing on Peter to enhance Paul's game. Which is the basic issue I have with the whole subject. In order to enhance the play of those classes the proposals are all to make things worse for that of other classes. I have no issue with increasing the challenge for divines as long as it's the divines who pay the price for not meeting that challenge. That's what I find "super annoying" about the whole thing.

redoubt

08-18-2015, 01:36 AM

redoubt

08-18-2015, 01:54 AM

Frankly, I don't think anything as integral to game play as healing is should be that limited. Especially in a game like DDO that has no natural regen over time mechanic.

As far as just soldering on, well when one's choice is to continue going with 10+ negative levels stacked up or go watch a sitcom while they expire, I tend to think a shorter duration is in order.

If you are of a level where you can have 10 neg levels, then someone in your group should have restoration as either a spell or a scroll. If they don't, are they not failing at being "self sufficient"?

I tend to carry both restoration and greater restoration. I've found myself casting restoration until I could finish off with a greater (due to suppressed UMD.)

Where do you think the timer should be? Make us like the mobs and have the neg levels only last about 3-6 seconds? Stat damage wear off in a couple seconds?

Gremmlynn

08-18-2015, 04:52 AM

Uska

08-18-2015, 05:22 AM

I would think they would be grouping with each other as, last time I checked, the option to group was still in the game.

There is little no incentive to do so and actually there more incentives not to group sadly

Uska

08-18-2015, 05:24 AM

Leave it at 2mins (from last neg) but have the whole stack drop off. There just isn't a good reason for any longer than that, much less 20+mins. That's pointlessly excessive.

Why have neg levels at all? Why not have all sp and hp restore instantly after two min of no loss

EllisDee37

08-18-2015, 05:33 AM

Why have neg levels at all? Why not have all sp and hp restore instantly after two min of no lossI know you're joking with this, but it makes me wonder: Why not gives players and mobs the same rules for negative levels and stat damage? Thinking specifically of EH and EE difficulties. Whether that means mobs get the 2 minutes per level / however long per stat point like players, or players get 3 seconds per stack like mobs, either way works for me.

knockcocker

08-18-2015, 06:10 AM

There is little no incentive to do so and actually there more incentives not to group sadly

What are the incentives not to group?

I tend to agree with the points Gremmlyn has put across. Namely, this game still fully
supports grouping for those who want to group just (probably better) as it
always has. You have to accept that grouping has to be a choice, not a requirement
otherwise you risk further alienation of an already dwindling player base.

If you want to group, group. Simple. If you think doing things like making the game
too hard to solo (or nerfing self healing such that soloing is prohibitive) will improve
the grouping scene then I think you'll be disappointed.

I've no problem with grouping being incentivized as long as everyone is playing the
same game.

Angelic-council

08-18-2015, 06:31 AM

I hope people realize that this can only be achieved by introducing strong endgame (be it a quest or raid at cap) that has HP drain (DoT) mechanic. This new mechanic should only apply at level cap, where people tent to farm gear and not EXP = no rush. But it's not something that will activate once you enter. This is something that boss will use or when we fight the boss. This will not force anyone to be a healer, but this will teach people to stay close at boss fight or be more careful.

I honestly think this is the only way and an easy way without disturbing any aspect of the game. Every divine should curry at least 1 - 2 AoE heals: divine wrath, mass cure (EA). Those could be used as a party advantage. When we run defiler of the just for example, it's not like a dungeon where 1 can just zerg ahead and pretty much solo everything. But in defiler, we use certain tactics. I see nothing wrong with another tactical mechanic that requires constant healing. Divines can land their AoE heals where it's most needed (on party) rather than just on self and completely ignore other members. I don't think everyone can keep up healing from ongoing DoT damage while fighting a boss, so, this would make things interesting.

Wh070aa

08-18-2015, 06:44 AM

What are the incentives not to group?

You have newer pugged, or had a bad PUG haven't you?

1)Scaling. Each party member adds a whole lot of extra HP to monsters (and other stuff)
2)Dungeon alert. You are more likely to get it with a party.
3)Quest items they can pick up, and not hand in or use, that are needed for quest.
4)Fail conditions they can trigger.
5)AFKing(disconnecting,getting lost) in quests where you need to gather your party at a spot to advance
6)Conflicting or poorly preformed play styles Kiting vs CC. Seriously a single CC can reduce your DPS by thousands of damage. Same for Kiting, and not being able to melee monsters, and having to chase them.
7) General human problems (grease clickies, caling you names, and other things).
8)Bugs. There are abilities that can mess up your instance/quest, damage, destroy your healing, give you negative levels, turn monsters you need to kill in to rats that don't count, kill your undead form wizard with whatever ability,aura that removes all your weapon properties(or at least sufixes) and so on.

Probably more things too.

BigErkyKid

08-18-2015, 06:50 AM

Wh070aa

08-18-2015, 08:22 AM

When I taught about this, you can make a static group of players, that need healing, and are better at their roles (damage, exc) from freeing up the stuff they have to spend on healing. It's not like you need to take the self healing, and healing PUG's is not a thing any healer really wanted to experience a lot.

No one is stopping you from making a party that needs a healer. It probably do more damage, and be able to do quests quicker than the self sufficient party (to a point, and depending on quest).

In the olden day's clerics lowed self sufficient characters.

Is the nostalgia really that bad, that you have forgotten how bad it was to heal PUG's?

slarden

08-18-2015, 08:29 AM

There is little no incentive to do so and actually there more incentives not to group sadly

This is still a social game and most people prefer grouping. I wouldn't say there is any real incentive to "not group".

Coyopa

08-18-2015, 08:30 AM

You have newer pugged, or had a bad PUG haven't you?

1)Scaling. Each party member adds a whole lot of extra HP to monsters (and other stuff)
2)Dungeon alert. You are more likely to get it with a party.
3)Quest items they can pick up, and not hand in or use, that are needed for quest.
4)Fail conditions they can trigger.
5)AFKing(disconnecting,getting lost) in quests where you need to gather your party at a spot to advance
6)Conflicting or poorly preformed play styles Kiting vs CC. Seriously a single CC can reduce your DPS by thousands of damage. Same for Kiting, and not being able to melee monsters, and having to chase them.
7) General human problems (grease clickies, caling you names, and other things).
8)Bugs. There are abilities that can mess up your instance/quest, damage, destroy your healing, give you negative levels, turn monsters you need to kill in to rats that don't count, kill your undead form wizard with whatever ability,aura that removes all your weapon properties(or at least sufixes) and so on.

Probably more things too.

You know, using Grease is a viable tactic. I use it on my wizard and occasionally on my bard. They both either have FoM or immunity to slippery surfaces. I expect people (at epic levels anyway) to have one of these. If I am able to give FoM to you, I will when I start seeing the blue hexagon over your head. If I'm on my wizard, then you're on your own.

Chai

08-18-2015, 08:49 AM

Scaling should make it engage group play. You knew the answer to this before you typed it. Scaling is what helped create the "must be able to solo elite" entitlement situation. The original design of scaling was to not scale on elite, but that happened incorrectly. and was left in because it became the status quo.

Also, we have raids that should be doing that.

And the vast majority are shortmanned and or soloed. The ones that are current endgame are the last bastion of people needing to cooperate with other people to win, and even the degree of that is debatable as that too is being eroded.

Enoach

08-18-2015, 09:03 AM

If you are of a level where you can have 10 neg levels, then someone in your group should have restoration as either a spell or a scroll. If they don't, are they not failing at being "self sufficient"?

I tend to carry both restoration and greater restoration. I've found myself casting restoration until I could finish off with a greater (due to suppressed UMD.)

Where do you think the timer should be? Make us like the mobs and have the neg levels only last about 3-6 seconds? Stat damage wear off in a couple seconds?

This is one of the things I've been vocal about. Any Mob should not be recovering from Negative Levels and Attribute damage that rapidly. This is what has caused the DPS race and has actually made build diversity less then what it could be. But I imagine part of the issue is that the inclusion of negative levels and attribute damage on hit to melee/range weapons that does not have the SR check of the spell counter part is one of the reasons why the recovery is so ludicrous. I feel the best fix is to reduce the proc chance on weapons and put the recovery rate to what we as PCs currently deal with. This will do two things. 1) It will open up an alternative to HIGH DPS 2) It will help DC casters at the high end.

Leave it at 2mins (from last neg) but have the whole stack drop off. There just isn't a good reason for any longer than that, much less 20+mins. That's pointlessly excessive.

I disagree, because there are many tools to help avoid negative levels and there are tools to remove negative levels.

Even outside of UMD on Restoration Scrolls there is the Potion of Restoration. At Epic Levels these are available for the cost of 1 Druid Commendation or The Necropolis for 1 Abbot's Ring. Also there are potions of Deathward to help avoid the negative levels 1 Cleric Commendation or The Necropolis for 1 abbot's Ring, let alone Tangleroot's Render Goggles.

Then for avoidance you also have Negative Energy Absorption items and spell absorption items.

And the final part is that you can rest at a shrine to recover all negative levels. It use to be a single negative level

A person should be prepared. Personally I didn't like when they put a timer on these and other spell durations. When they did this they removed the reason for spells such as Stone to Flesh and break enchantment. If not for spell wards Dispel magic and Greater Dispel Magic would also not be as used as it is today.

If they Fix the duration on Epic mobs it will resolve a large gap in DC casting even making it so that those without the Top DCs can still compete with DPS in the highest content.

JOTMON

08-18-2015, 09:04 AM

One of the issues I see for clerics is use of scrolls.
When level cap was 12 purchasing stacks of heal scrolls was useful as a cleric and non-clerics had to heavily invest in UMD to even have a shot.
Casting scrolls was great.. You could fill a players health bar from half to full.. capped players ran around with 150-400HP..

Level increased.. now we have level 28 heading to 30.. and we have had no increase in scroll levels.
Everyone can UMD scrolls now since the bar for UMD Heal scrolls was set long before any of these level cap increases.

Mobs hit for a lot more, players are forced to build higher HP toons.
for instance.. DOJ blades hit for 800 no save without PRR ..so now we "have to" build PRR and Hit points.
Now it is surprising to see a Drow caster with less than 1,000HP.. no one balks when they see a melee with 2,500 HP..
I remember LOB when people were "wow" how did you get 1,000 HP on your warforged tank... you must have taken 5 toughness feats and gimped yourself... and the healer going OG I am never going to keep this guy alive...

In current content using scrolls is ineffective, there is no value to cycling between wands/scrolls/spells..
Healers have lost 2/3 of their heal cycling and now have to bolster that with mana. to cycle spell/spell/spell.
Mass heal timer and coo down makes it worthless for most combat situations, so spamming the more expensive mass cures becomes commonplace.

Combine the ineffectiveness of heal scrolls(for healers) and the increase of damage from environment/mobs and it is no surprise that clerics packed it in and said "go heal yourself"...

Sure groups take healers.. but they don't have to.. they can take anything else as well..

Things need to change or there will be no healers left.

~Clerics need access to higher level scroll lasting whether its a divine enhancement that allows cleric level to supercede scroll caster level, or access to higher level scrolls with higher UMD requirements for non-clerics.
~Apply meta's to scrolls based on Cleric levels..something like 5%/level.. Clerics should have a better bang for their buck when casting divine scrolls.
~I would even go so far as to change the Wand and scroll mastery to dump the added DC bs from wands to add the 5% meta/divine class. (who the hell is using Wand DC's.. pft..)
~Mass Heal needs to have the long casting time removed.. or casting time reduced by every increase in cleric level.
~full meta applications to spells . no more screwing healers over and only applying 50% meta's to spells.
~Better mana regen options.. concordant-op/Torc.. are useless in epic levels getting hit for 500 to get 10hp/sp back doesn't cut it.
~More real SP regen options, not more BS temp SP..
~Change enhancement tree so aura is not Tier5 in Radiant Servant which locks out any other choice for Cleric Enhancement tree's.
(don't care about your multi-class solo melee cleric that doesn't use aura.. this is about usefulness of party healing clerics)
~Remove caster level caps from all divine spells..
~Introduce higher level versions of spells like mass aid actually useful for the Temporary HP in high level content.. Mass Aid caps at 23 temp hp.
~add aura things like aoe healing amp or other Divine oriented buffs in radiant servant.. stuff that makes staying close to the healer beneficial.. something like a death ward aura/restoration ticks aura.. add-ons to the positive energy aura...

To be useful.. healing clerics need the core abilities to be able to cure the party effectively throughout the quest well enough so that the rest of the party has enough confidence that they can focus on doing everything other than self healing.

Uska

08-18-2015, 09:13 AM

What are the incentives not to group?

I tend to agree with the points Gremmlyn has put across. Namely, this game still fully
supports grouping for those who want to group just (probably better) as it
always has. You have to accept that grouping has to be a choice, not a requirement
otherwise you risk further alienation of an already dwindling player base.

If you want to group, group. Simple. If you think doing things like making the game
too hard to solo (or nerfing self healing such that soloing is prohibitive) will improve
the grouping scene then I think you'll be disappointed.

I've no problem with grouping being incentivized as long as everyone is playing the
same game.

Scaling is the main incentive

Uska

08-18-2015, 09:14 AM

Uska

08-18-2015, 09:17 AM

This is still a social game and most people prefer grouping. I wouldn't say there is any real incentive to "not group".

You would think that but no it seems more people want to solo now sadly or if they group its just to run as much xp per minute as they can which is not very much fun either I like to run the quests pretty much in order once each to have some kind of story going

Enoach

08-18-2015, 09:25 AM

~full meta applications to spells . no more screwing healers over and only applying 50% meta's to spells.

I would go so far as saying remove the 50% Spell power rule on positive energy. This will make healing overall cheaper as meta's will not be as needed to heal.

Another thing that really needs to be addressed is the Cleric/Paladin Turn Undead - CR vs HD conversion issue. At low to mid levels with a little gear a cleric can be very strong against undead even without the instant kill from Radiant servant as the Stun/Fear feature serves as CC, Turn Undead should be as effective as Undeath to Death the issue here is that the Will Saves are not as inflated as the HD. We are also running into Undead that has Instant Death Immunity. Fine, but even if a cleric can't kill it with the turn the effect of stun/fear should still apply.

Talon_Moonshadow

08-18-2015, 09:31 AM

People who don't like grouping is the incentive not to group: both for themselves and the rest of us...

Qaliya

08-18-2015, 10:05 AM

Great post that hit a lot of nails on the head, JOTMON.

JOTMON

08-18-2015, 10:17 AM

Great post that hit a lot of nails on the head, JOTMON.

all we need now is some notice from the Dev team..

Faltout

08-18-2015, 10:28 AM

First of all the idea you have is very poorly thought.
1. You add yet another damage type that bypasses protections. Who doesn't love that, right? Especially with all the existing damage types that bypass such protections when they shouldn't. (like drow poison when you have poison immunity, chain missiles when you have shield, etc.)
2. You are discussing a greater difficulty like it's a given.
3. The effects from this "damage" are total annoyances. We play to be challenged, not to be annoyed. For example the CON drain in Ghosts of Perdition that makes you helpless is somewhat of an annoyance. Coupled with the lich avengers that move in superspeed, knock everyone down with an AOE attack that does full force damage and stun with a DC >100.
4. From what you propose, the solution is a heal scroll. So, every couple of seconds you'll need to scroll heal yourself in order to keep your abilities (skills, damage, etc.). If that's not plain annoying, I don't know what is. It's not hard, it's just annoying.

Secondly, in the quoted part and the thread title you mention "without nerfs or retroactive changes". You are turning a blind eye to the problem or you don't understand the problem. Waiting for a healer is what the people complaining WANT.
Now, that healer is not only one class. Almost anyone could heal before power creep. Scrolls with 75% effectiveness, cures from paladins, rangers, druids. So many classes that can heal without the need to have 500 temp HP every 30 seconds or 12 sp fast healing, or cheap full heal SLAs.
When you don't have a healer, you can still complete the quest but in a slower pace because you'll need to heal between fights, you'll need someone to use healing abilities while you fight, you'll need to approach the fights differently pulling couple of mobs at a time.
What people want is the game to be challenging again and the healer to actually make things noticeably easier. Not the roflstomping of content that most players do.

Thus the need for nerfs. Bringing more monster power creep instead of toning down the classes is NOT the right way to go since it further increases the gap between player power. (the gap is already huge with the item power creep, past lives power creep, multiclassing power creep)

1. + 3. "annoyances" are generally forum speak for "things that make the game harder/more complex" AKA "things that interrupt my routine of flawless facerolling of content for XP/EN 20th completion lists" that these should only be put into new EE content or Reaper mode is addressed in the OP. my suggestions are from my point of view, my point of view is that the present status quo is becoming too simplistic getting more and more one dimensional and lacking challenge, pretty much obviating what used to be a valued aspect of the game. Naturally your viewpoint is different and you don't want several new forms of damage that can't be mitigated with one 4th level spell, in other words you don't want the game to be deeper and more dynamic... that's fine you're entitled to want DDO to play the way you like, but so am I.

2. Seems inevitable to me though it's not my preference (I'd prefer they fix Hard and Elite to fit their names), so I am going to treat it as a done deal. The alternative is to make Elite and Hard much harder than they currently are, a prospect that would make for big angry "Elite is for easy mode XP, please don't put any "annoyances" into it" mobs.

4. if you want to lose DPS whipping out a heal scroll that's a fine solution for you and others who are like minded. Probably shouldn't act like it's going to be the preferred method, it makes you sound like you've never used one with an EE mob agrro'ed on you before.
things that interrupt my routine of flawless facerolling of content are not necessarily things that make the game harder/more complex.
Examples: A monster that hits you with 2000 damage without any chance at mitigation.
A monster with 10 million HP that unlocks a door forward upon death.
A swarm of monsters that are hiding and are necessary to kill to proceed.

The above things are not hard, nor complex. 1st one is death no matter what you do. If you can survive combat for the first 500k HP, you can definately survive the whole 10mil in the 2nd one. The extra 9.5mil are annoying. The 3rd one isn't even dangerous. It's just that you need to find the monsters and kill them. I'm not playing hide and seek here.
All 3 interrupt my speeding through content. But they are not hard or complex.

However: Ballista hits you for 2000 damage but it's possible to avoid it and with more ways than one.
Dom with some extra protections and special attacks when damaged and not just teleporting the elemental.
A swarm of ranged monsters that hit you from the dark and to find them you need to determine where the sound or the projectile is coming from and they gain power over time.
Boss that insults you and you need to react fast to not get incapacitated.
Lord of Blades about to use special attack and you need to react fast.

The above again interrupt my roflstomping of content but this time I can take action against them and prevent the consequences. And taking that action is hard. In the 1st example, you need to attack all nearby bugbears so they can't arm the ballista or hide between ballista attacks. That's definitely not easy. And I'm all for this kind of challenge.

So, there's annoyance and challenge. Annoyance is something you can't do anything about.

Coyopa

08-18-2015, 10:52 AM

I disagree, because there are many tools to help avoid negative levels and there are tools to remove negative levels.

Even outside of UMD on Restoration Scrolls there is the Potion of Restoration. At Epic Levels these are available for the cost of 1 Druid Commendation or The Necropolis for 1 Abbot's Ring. Also there are potions of Deathward to help avoid the negative levels 1 Cleric Commendation or The Necropolis for 1 abbot's Ring, let alone Tangleroot's Render Goggles.
Whoa! I did not know that. That's awesome. I tried to +rep you, but apparently I still have to give more to other people first.

If not for spell wards Dispel magic and Greater Dispel Magic would also not be as used as it is today.

Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic are being used? Until this weekend, I'd never seen anyone use these, even on the spell wards. I had no trouble disabling them without the use of those spells. So, I was a little insulted, but I didn't say anything because there was simply nothing to say about it.

Enoach

08-18-2015, 11:02 AM

Whoa! I did not know that. That's awesome. I tried to +rep you, but apparently I still have to give more to other people first.

Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic are being used? Until this weekend, I'd never seen anyone use these, even on the spell wards. I had no trouble disabling them without the use of those spells. So, I was a little insulted, but I didn't say anything because there was simply nothing to say about it.

Glad I could point something out that can help you on the potions.

As for the Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic vs Spell Wards - Of the six characters I have only one has any trapping skills, but the other 5 all have access to using those spells to remove the spell wards. I only need to use this option when I'm not grouped with someone that can trap, so that might be a reason why you had not seen the spell used before this weekend. I do believe most use scrolls as those spells only remove 1 to 4 off the Spell Ward and at epic levels you need to remove between 22 and 26 from them (approx. 8 to 10 casts of Greater Dispel)

Chai

08-18-2015, 11:13 AM

things that interrupt my routine of flawless facerolling of content are not necessarily things that make the game harder/more complex.
Examples: A monster that hits you with 2000 damage without any chance at mitigation.
A monster with 10 million HP that unlocks a door forward upon death.
A swarm of monsters that are hiding and are necessary to kill to proceed.

The above things are not hard, nor complex. 1st one is death no matter what you do. If you can survive combat for the first 500k HP, you can definately survive the whole 10mil in the 2nd one. The extra 9.5mil are annoying. The 3rd one isn't even dangerous. It's just that you need to find the monsters and kill them. I'm not playing hide and seek here.
All 3 interrupt my speeding through content. But they are not hard or complex.

However: Ballista hits you for 2000 damage but it's possible to avoid it and with more ways than one.
Dom with some extra protections and special attacks when damaged and not just teleporting the elemental.
A swarm of ranged monsters that hit you from the dark and to find them you need to determine where the sound or the projectile is coming from and they gain power over time.
Boss that insults you and you need to react fast to not get incapacitated.
Lord of Blades about to use special attack and you need to react fast.

The above again interrupt my roflstomping of content but this time I can take action against them and prevent the consequences. And taking that action is hard. In the 1st example, you need to attack all nearby bugbears so they can't arm the ballista or hide between ballista attacks. That's definitely not easy. And I'm all for this kind of challenge.

So, there's annoyance and challenge. Annoyance is something you can't do anything about.

The former are bandaid solutions to power creep which do not add challenge. One is an instant kill and the others add time consumption but not challenge.

The latter are FPS style mechanics which can prevent the "run forward and burst melee DPS/spam binary kill conditions" strategy from working 100% of the time in all case scenarios. These are the things complained about the most in DDO - the reason why crucible was crucibled, the shroud blades were nerfed, etc...

Krell

08-18-2015, 11:41 AM

People here asking for the impossible: a game that is equally challenging both solo and in groups in all difficulty settings and offers some interesting group mechanics.

At least DDO has not come up with a good way to do that, now we have extreme self sufficiency and parties of up to 6 soloists.

The funny part is that the majority of classes in DDO can perform several roles. Healing can come from divines, but also from bards, paladins and most classes can scroll heal. Crowd control is available to a whole bunch of classes too (from rogues to wizards, including melee classes). There are also a wide diversity of classes with buffs, although arguably the majority are not very meaningful nowadays.

So even if something else than DPS was required to finish quests, it would be relatively simple for most classes to fill the need as they played without having to wait for say a dedicated healer. In that sense the "two build" switch from LoTRO is quite handy.

At the end of the day it comes down to some people wanting a game that caters to their preferred style without concessions (being able to solo HE/EE as if playing a single player) and the devs tailoring the game to that group. While you can still group (who prevents it?), it is also true that you spend very little time synergizing with the rest of members of a party even in a full group. This is the direct result of bringing so much self sufficiency to the game and converting it in a DPS race.

Since non of us has a clue of what is actually better for the game, I guess all that remains is for individuals to insistently voice their concerns in the forums (and PC) until a group has sufficient pull to get the changes it wants. Until now it was the soloists. But we will see ho they craft reaper difficulty.

Some good points. I group because I like to, not because I need to. In most cases we don't need a trapper, but like to have a trapper for the XP bonus and some quests go smoother with one. I don't need a healer but no one complains when we have one (Which is rare) since it can make things go a little smoother in the more difficult content. I don't see them being able to balance things in a way where we need healers more without getting to the point where most groups feel they have to have one.Personally I'm fine with most people being fairly self-sufficient and choosing to group because they want to. Forcing more grouping by developing a greater dependence on a healer role, trapper role, cc role, tank role, etc. isn't in the best interest of the game in my opinion. I remember when most groups thought one or more of those roles were required, depending on the quest, and it just meant more time forming groups and less time playing.

Coyopa

08-18-2015, 11:43 AM

Glad I could point something out that can help you on the potions.

As for the Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic vs Spell Wards - Of the six characters I have only one has any trapping skills, but the other 5 all have access to using those spells to remove the spell wards. I only need to use this option when I'm not grouped with someone that can trap, so that might be a reason why you had not seen the spell used before this weekend. I do believe most use scrolls as those spells only remove 1 to 4 off the Spell Ward and at epic levels you need to remove between 22 and 26 from them (approx. 8 to 10 casts of Greater Dispel)

Well, you are just a font of wisdom today! I may start carrying some of those scrolls on my characters who can use them, even though some of those have trapping skills. Thanks again!

Enoach

08-18-2015, 12:32 PM

BigErkyKid

08-18-2015, 02:50 PM

Now I don't want Turbine Quest development to be limited to only mechanics that can be soloed. All quests should be designed around a balanced party of 4. Let the players come up with strategies to work shortman and unbalanced. By balance I am referring to having a variety of skills from rogue style (traps, doors, etc.) CC, DPS and source of healing.

So in essence I think we agree :)

Angelic-council

08-18-2015, 03:56 PM

Disagree I have little to no interest in end game and lots of interest in grouping

Then this thread is a waste of time. You can't let this change happen outside of the end game. If you follow everything what Dev said and everything what devs have done, then analyze current players mentality. You will see. Give this thread a year or 2 if it's last.

You can't just throw random ideas and expect that to happen sadly.

Uska

08-18-2015, 04:06 PM

Then this thread is a waste of time. You can't let this change happen outside of the end game. If you follow everything what Dev said and everything what devs have done, then analyze current players mentality. You will see. Give this thread a year or 2 if it's last.

You can't just throw random ideas and expect that to happen sadly.

Disagree it needed more for early game than end game since at end game people have ed's and the like

Qaliya

08-18-2015, 04:06 PM

Appropos of this discussion, apparently this weekend we will have something called a "group XP weekend". Should be interesting!

Angelic-council

08-18-2015, 04:20 PM

Disagree it needed more for early game than end game since at end game people have ed's and the like

That's silly. You could disagree, but you know it's too late now. It's just too late for early game. People want to level up as quick as possible in order to acquire lv20 - lv28 cap. You just can't interrupt them now, it will have a negative impact.

Since at end game, people will have everything they need, they are more comfortable in their performance. That's where they will be challenge.

Qhualor

08-18-2015, 04:27 PM

That's silly. You could disagree, but you know it's too late now. It's just too late for early game. People want to level up as quick as possible in order to acquire lv20 - lv28 cap. You just can't interrupt them now, it will have a negative impact.

Since at end game, people will have everything they need, they are more comfortable in their performance. That's where they will be challenge.

this is actually true overall, but I hate it. its the biggest reasons why I solo a lot more than I ever have. im not in a hurry to get nowhere. its funny how I read some players on here post about zerging to cap and than turn around and complain about nothing to do at cap after spending raid timer bypass and chest re-rolls farming for end game gear. the thing is im bored to tears soloing everything and im bored to tears because the content doesn't challenge me outside of specific quests. after watching how Champions got the nerf bat 3 days after release, I seriously doubt they put any kind of focus in early game. as someone once put it so eloquently, their tears would be delicious, but end game is the only place I see any chance.

Angelic-council

08-18-2015, 04:59 PM

this is actually true overall, but I hate it. its the biggest reasons why I solo a lot more than I ever have. im not in a hurry to get nowhere. its funny how I read some players on here post about zerging to cap and than turn around and complain about nothing to do at cap after spending raid timer bypass and chest re-rolls farming for end game gear. the thing is im bored to tears soloing everything and im bored to tears because the content doesn't challenge me outside of specific quests. after watching how Champions got the nerf bat 3 days after release, I seriously doubt they put any kind of focus in early game. as someone once put it so eloquently, their tears would be delicious, but end game is the only place I see any chance.

Oh yes, I agree. You are just spot on.

I hope more people would realize this so we can at least move on somewhere. I think people have so many opinions and they want something that's impossible to bring back. People still have a faith... But nothing is happening over so many years now. I do hate it sometimes too... But, end game is our only option. I'm sure turbine is more confident in making endgame harder and so does the players who challenge it.

Turbine said this before that, they don't want to tweak current difficulty, but new content is different.

Braegan

08-18-2015, 05:02 PM

Stoner81

08-18-2015, 05:47 PM

This is still going on?

Hey, if melee characters are building with healing options then divine characters need to build with DPS options. If we are asking for more Divine DPS options (whether directly or passively to aid the group) than I am all ears.

+1 :)

Imho dedicated healers are easier than ever to build without having to just be a heal bot, there is so much spell power and healing amp available to pretty much all builds that healers can tone down the amount of spellpower they have for heals and boost their DPS either be it with spells or melee or whatever.

Stoner81.

Gremmlynn

08-18-2015, 08:12 PM

Why have neg levels at all? Why not have all sp and hp restore instantly after two min of no lossWhats the point of standing around for 20+ mins.? Do you see that enhancing the game in some way? That length of debuff should last to the end of any encounter, whats the point beyond that?

Gremmlynn

08-18-2015, 08:19 PM

There is little no incentive to do so and actually there more incentives not to group sadlyYou have lost me. If people prefer to group, what more incentive do they need?

Gremmlynn

08-18-2015, 08:27 PM

You have newer pugged, or had a bad PUG haven't you?

1)Scaling. Each party member adds a whole lot of extra HP to monsters (and other stuff)
2)Dungeon alert. You are more likely to get it with a party.
3)Quest items they can pick up, and not hand in or use, that are needed for quest.
4)Fail conditions they can trigger.
5)AFKing(disconnecting,getting lost) in quests where you need to gather your party at a spot to advance
6)Conflicting or poorly preformed play styles Kiting vs CC. Seriously a single CC can reduce your DPS by thousands of damage. Same for Kiting, and not being able to melee monsters, and having to chase them.
7) General human problems (grease clickies, caling you names, and other things).
8)Bugs. There are abilities that can mess up your instance/quest, damage, destroy your healing, give you negative levels, turn monsters you need to kill in to rats that don't count, kill your undead form wizard with whatever ability,aura that removes all your weapon properties(or at least sufixes) and so on.

Probably more things too.How does making soloing less viable fix any of those things though?

I don't see the logic there.

Uska

08-18-2015, 08:31 PM

Gremmlynn

08-18-2015, 08:41 PM

And the vast majority are shortmanned and or soloed. The ones that are current endgame are the last bastion of people needing to cooperate with other people to win, and even the degree of that is debatable as that too is being eroded.Which is why I said "should be doing that". Though, I really think it would be to much to expect raids from the days of level caps past to that keep up when run over level.

Braegan

08-18-2015, 08:44 PM

+1 :)

Imho dedicated healers are easier than ever to build without having to just be a heal bot, there is so much spell power and healing amp available to pretty much all builds that healers can tone down the amount of spellpower they have for heals and boost their DPS either be it with spells or melee or whatever.

Stoner81.

Exactly. I currently have exactly one heroic spell elected for healing. I can still keep a group going and leave some pretty damage on the battlefield. :)

Gremmlynn

08-18-2015, 08:57 PM

You would think that but no it seems more people want to solo now sadly or if they group its just to run as much xp per minute as they can which is not very much fun either I like to run the quests pretty much in order once each to have some kind of story goingI get the impression you would prefer the game to have half as many players if all those players were devout group players.

Gremmlynn

08-18-2015, 09:17 PM

What we got was mobs that nearly double in HP when you go from 1 player to 6 players. At the same time they get save boosts - giving a false sense of power if you run solo over being grouped.While I'll agree that save boosts are kind of silly, I don't understand the complaint about mobs almost doubling in hp's when the group has 6 times the damage potential.

Angelic-council

08-18-2015, 09:57 PM

Not everyone rushes to be 20-28 I know I am not the only one that hates epic play and avoids it. so dont push your style on me and I will grant you the some courtesy

What, no way, you don't understand. It's not about you or me. It's about the game. I'm not trying to push you my style, it's just a reality. It doesn't matter how fast or slow you level up, you can wait for party or just solo. If you want to avoid epics, that is your choice. But no one will wait for you or me. This game has to move on. If you remember what developers did in the past and compare that to now. It become all clear. The only way to improve a strong party, bring more healing value would be the end game. Which suppose to be very hard, 10 out of 10 hard. That's where all the focus should be pointed at. That's all.

redoubt

08-18-2015, 09:59 PM

Leave it at 2mins (from last neg) but have the whole stack drop off. There just isn't a good reason for any longer than that, much less 20+mins. That's pointlessly excessive.

Okay.

Now, what is the good reason for not having restore?

If you have restore, you don't need them to auto regen.

J-mann

08-19-2015, 03:15 AM

Okay.

Now, what is the good reason for not having restore?

If you have restore, you don't need them to auto regen.

While I agree in spirit, that option is not always available. Now, its actually pretty easy to scrape together enough umd to be able to scroll restoration *with at least some probability of success* not everyone has that option. I agree with him that the debuffs should be MUCH shorter lived (I also carry things like bless clickies, haste clickies and other things that will counter some longer lasting debuffs, getting slowed by a mob and having it last for 3 minutes after the fight is down right annoying).

redoubt

08-19-2015, 04:23 AM

While I agree in spirit, that option is not always available. Now, its actually pretty easy to scrape together enough umd to be able to scroll restoration *with at least some probability of success* not everyone has that option. I agree with him that the debuffs should be MUCH shorter lived (I also carry things like bless clickies, haste clickies and other things that will counter some longer lasting debuffs, getting slowed by a mob and having it last for 3 minutes after the fight is down right annoying).

This completely forgets that this is a team game. At launch, if you were blinded, you were blinded until someone removed it. Period. That sucked! Cursed, lasted forever. It had to be removed.

Stat drained to zero? dead or immobilized until someone removed the stat damage or raised you.

There were no hires. It was you and your 5 adventurer companions against the curse spamming kobold shaman. I remember water works too!

All of these changes have removed depth from the game. Maybe you played during that time and maybe you didn't, I don't know. I know that XP debt was feared by all and hated by many, but it sure made you work together. You also learned who really had your back, back then.

I preferred a shield wall in front of the caster who spammed MM at the end boss of STK on normal over the face roll I did a couple days ago where we ran in and killed him at a run with two warlocks on elite. Though I realize I'm likely in the minority and thus it won't go back.

Stoner81

08-19-2015, 06:58 AM

Exactly. I currently have exactly one heroic spell elected for healing. I can still keep a group going and leave some pretty damage on the battlefield. :)

I'm very similar dude, I have two spells generally one which is Vigor which I cast before tougher fights and I have CSW which is used between fights unless I get spike damage.

Stoner81.

Chai

08-19-2015, 07:21 AM

Which is why I said "should be doing that". Though, I really think it would be to much to expect raids from the days of level caps past to that keep up when run over level.

But people expect the content from that same era those raids were designed in to keep up. When it doesn't, to the point where the highest difficulty setting becomes the default, people want it left that way, because having to endure a game adjustment which caters to more players is less of a priority than ability to earn highest xp/favor rewards.

Gremmlynn

08-19-2015, 07:23 PM

Okay.

Now, what is the good reason for not having restore?

If you have restore, you don't need them to auto regen.The advantage of having restoration would be to fix while the fight is still going on, rather than waiting for it to be over for 2 mins. This gives the spell value, without making it "must have" and thus limiting build diversity.

What is the advantage of making that wait longer than that? It just makes the game annoying for anyone that has to go through it for no real reason IMO.

Gremmlynn

08-19-2015, 07:35 PM

But people expect the content from that same era those raids were designed in to keep up. When it doesn't, to the point where the highest difficulty setting becomes the default, people want it left that way, because having to endure a game adjustment which caters to more players is less of a priority than ability to earn highest xp/favor rewards.Are you saying that every time the level cap is raised, all the end game content from the previous cap should be adjusted to that new cap?

Or are you saying you expect them to update all the content in the game every time they put in an update to the game. While that sounds nice, I find it doubtful it would be feasible. It might have been if things weren't so hand crafted in the game, but they are.

J-mann

08-20-2015, 02:04 AM

This completely forgets that this is a team game. At launch, if you were blinded, you were blinded until someone removed it. Period. That sucked! Cursed, lasted forever. It had to be removed.

Stat drained to zero? dead or immobilized until someone removed the stat damage or raised you.

There were no hires. It was you and your 5 adventurer companions against the curse spamming kobold shaman. I remember water works too!

All of these changes have removed depth from the game. Maybe you played during that time and maybe you didn't, I don't know. I know that XP debt was feared by all and hated by many, but it sure made you work together. You also learned who really had your back, back then.

I preferred a shield wall in front of the caster who spammed MM at the end boss of STK on normal over the face roll I did a couple days ago where we ran in and killed him at a run with two warlocks on elite. Though I realize I'm likely in the minority and thus it won't go back.

Yep I played during those times, and nope they were not "fun" things in the least. There is no point in blind lasting beyond the quest in this game. There is not point in Curse, neg levels and all that lasting beyond the quest/chain either, beyond annoying your players. Now permanent in quest? I could go with that, so long as there are proper means of counter acting them so that if a particular class isnt on when you decide to play, your only option is not to play (which was the case in those "good old days" if no divines wanted to do content you did)

Gauthaag

08-20-2015, 02:40 AM

Yep I played during those times, and nope they were not "fun" things in the least. There is no point in blind lasting beyond the quest in this game. There is not point in Curse, neg levels and all that lasting beyond the quest/chain either, beyond annoying your players. Now permanent in quest? I could go with that, so long as there are proper means of counter acting them so that if a particular class isnt on when you decide to play, your only option is not to play (which was the case in those "good old days" if no divines wanted to do content you did)

cause we don't have potions, wands and scrolls

J-mann

08-20-2015, 02:59 AM

cause we don't have potions, wands and scrolls

We do now, he wants to either introduce new mechanics, or eliminate self sufficient mechanics, so that "healers" are required again. No thanks.

Uska

08-20-2015, 09:28 AM

bartharok

08-20-2015, 09:34 AM

They weren't fun for you maybe but I liked it and I like a low magic pnp game as well not everyone likes Monty Haul games

My first d'oh in DDO was when i noticed how prevalent magic was in all its forms.

Chai

08-20-2015, 09:49 AM

Are you saying that every time the level cap is raised, all the end game content from the previous cap should be adjusted to that new cap?

No. Theres a significant gray area between best in slot and worthless which Turbine used to itemize better in the earlier days than they do now. Previous endgame wasn't invalidated completely back then like it is now by new endgame. Even when eChrono was endgame people still ran reaver, hound, vod, abbot, shroud, tod, DQ, and VON because items in those, while not best in slot, were not completely invalidated.

Or are you saying you expect them to update all the content in the game every time they put in an update to the game. While that sounds nice, I find it doubtful it would be feasible. It might have been if things weren't so hand crafted in the game, but they are.

It would not need to be that extreme. Stuff isn't so hand crafted anymore and hasn't been for a number of years. The way the CR system works is a pretty generic stat progression system, which makes making adjustments more feasible by far than most who want elite-as-the-default-status-quo to continue, are ready to admit. The only argument that remains valid for why it cant (wont) be done was demonstrated when champions were implemented - and how quickly, loudly, and repeatedly people were ready to mobilize to defend elite-as-the-default-status-quo in DDO.

PsychoBlonde

08-20-2015, 10:15 AM

First of all we should talk about ways to empower the healing role . . .

This is your problem right here. There are no "roles" in this game--not really. This is not WoW or any of those other crappy "trinity" style games. To ask for a healing "role" is basically asking for people to carry you because your character is worthless and contributes so little that they depend on other people in the party being lousy to be able to accomplish anything. No, seriously.

The only really defined role in this game that is limited by build is trapper. Anything else should, eventually, be able to tank, cc, DPS, and support (which includes healing). And I've seen it done. Some classes are more difficult than others to generalize, but that's usually because they're SO good at one thing that they can slack a little in other areas. That makes it good, but not mandatory, to run with other people. Heck, we were doing some epic elites last night and my housemate on his warlock was scroll-healing my rogue so I could tank without interruption. Was it necessary? Not really, I could have healed myself. But I might have lost threat if I had, which would have put the other DPS in a position where they'd have to focus more on staying alive instead of on dealing damage. We also had a cleric join the party for a couple of runs, and he had the most kills! It was great! I don't recall whether he ever actually threw an intentional heal on me, but since he was in radiant servant and exalted angel he was ****ing healing everywhere anyway so it worked out.

If you want to heal, the way to do it is to run EE stuff for bravery bonus--at the level where you have max chance of getting remnants. Holy moly have I been going through heal and rez scrolls the past few days that we've been leveling this way. And put up your own LFM--chances are anyone putting up an EE BB lfm themselves is an elite zerger who won't need heals, so you'll be dependent on joiners who may take considerable time to show up. Then take everybody that joins. You will be healing to your heart's content. It might take you an hour and a half to do the quest, mind you, but the people with medium toons will appreciate you a ton. And you'll meet a ton of people that way, too.

Healing IS useful--it's just if it's the ONLY useful thing you can do, you need to respec your toon, because every character should be able to do multiple things at need (albeit, not necessarily be The Best at them, but at least decent). And if you CAN do multiple things, you don't need a "role" made just for you. Simple.

Gremmlynn

08-20-2015, 10:32 AM

No. Theres a significant gray area between best in slot and worthless which Turbine used to itemize better in the earlier days than they do now. Previous endgame wasn't invalidated completely back then like it is now by new endgame. Even when eChrono was endgame people still ran reaver, hound, vod, abbot, shroud, tod, DQ, and VON because items in those, while not best in slot, were not completely invalidated.I wasn't talking about the rewards, but the raids themselves. Should all raids be boosted to top level content whenever the character level cap goes up to prevent them from being to easy with over-level characters?

It would not need to be that extreme. Stuff isn't so hand crafted anymore and hasn't been for a number of years. The way the CR system works is a pretty generic stat progression system, which makes making adjustments more feasible by far than most who want elite-as-the-default-status-quo to continue, are ready to admit. The only argument that remains valid for why it cant (wont) be done was demonstrated when champions were implemented - and how quickly, loudly, and repeatedly people were ready to mobilize to defend elite-as-the-default-status-quo in DDO.Actually, champions kind of point out just how hand crafted the quests are.

The reason elite is the status quo actually has more to do with Turbine setting things up around the expectation that everyone would run elite and that running elite was a universal goal. Then greatly reinforced that with the bravery mechanics. They simply added so much carrot as to make other difficulties mostly pointless, or at least unattractive enough to not support playing the game for. The system is set up to encourage elite to be the go to difficulty. It's been my experience, and I believe even you mentioned in this thread, that it doesn't take all that much incentive to get players to do what many already want to do in running the hardest versions of content.

DDOKillingMachine

08-20-2015, 10:40 AM

I don't understand the complaint about mobs almost doubling in hp's when the group has 6 times the damage potential.

Because it's bad design. Period. The monsters in every quest should be designed with two basic truths in mind:

1. They will be fighting a 4-person party. If the party has fewer than 4 people (including hirelings), then it will be tougher, and should then provide a slight bump in XP. If the party has more than 4 people (including hirelings), there should be a slight reduction in XP.
2. They will be designed properly according to the Challenge Rating and Encounter Level rules provided in the pnp game. Which means, for example, if you have a party of four 5th level characters, they should not be fighting 6 CR 6 monsters, or 6 CR 10 monsters, or any of the other hyperinflated numbers used in this game.

Neither one of these is currently the state of affairs. Monster hit points should not fluctuate based on the number of party members.

not everyone likes Monty Haul gamesNot everyone knows how to use that phrase properly either. But the simple truth is Eberron is a high magic setting (intentionally). If you prefer low magic settings, then a game set in Eberron (or the Realms) is not the one for you. Working to make it so is nonsensical and a failure to understand the setting.

Gremmlynn

08-20-2015, 11:06 AM

Because it's bad design. Period. The monsters in every quest should be designed with two basic truths in mind:

1. They will be fighting a 4-person party. If the party has fewer than 4 people (including hirelings), then it will be tougher, and should then provide a slight bump in XP. If the party has more than 4 people (including hirelings), there should be a slight reduction in XP.
2. They will be designed properly according to the Challenge Rating and Encounter Level rules provided in the pnp game. Which means, for example, if you have a party of four 5th level characters, they should not be fighting 6 CR 6 monsters, or 6 CR 10 monsters, or any of the other hyperinflated numbers used in this game.

Neither one of these is currently the state of affairs. Monster hit points should not fluctuate based on the number of party members.Is this based on extensive market research and experience from what conditions actually exist in the game or just some numbers you pulled out of your ass because they feel right to you as to how things should be?

IMO, your proposal represents bad design as it forces the players to adapt to that standard. Or from Turbine's perspective, the customers to adapt to the product. The scaling method used is an attempt to allow the product to adapt to the customers by adjusting to how many are actually present.

As far as CR is concerned, it means something completely different to what the term means in PnP. Which is something I have no issue with as DDO is not PnP and plays so much differently, in many ways, as to expect things to be different. I actually wish more things had been changed to reflect the reality of the game we have, rather than to try to try to use PnP mechanics that fit poorly.

Coyopa

08-20-2015, 11:27 AM

Because it's bad design. Period. The monsters in every quest should be designed with two basic truths in mind:

1. They will be fighting a 4-person party. If the party has fewer than 4 people (including hirelings), then it will be tougher, and should then provide a slight bump in XP. If the party has more than 4 people (including hirelings), there should be a slight reduction in XP.
2. They will be designed properly according to the Challenge Rating and Encounter Level rules provided in the pnp game. Which means, for example, if you have a party of four 5th level characters, they should not be fighting 6 CR 6 monsters, or 6 CR 10 monsters, or any of the other hyperinflated numbers used in this game.

Neither one of these is currently the state of affairs. Monster hit points should not fluctuate based on the number of party members.

Not everyone knows how to use that phrase properly either. But the simple truth is Eberron is a high magic setting (intentionally). If you prefer low magic settings, then a game set in Eberron (or the Realms) is not the one for you. Working to make it so is nonsensical and a failure to understand the setting.

You need to get over the whole "This is how it is in PnP and so this is how it should be in DDO" thing. DDO is an online game, not a pen-and-paper game. The overall design goal for online games is to get the player to spend as much time as possible playing. The overall design goal for pen-and-paper is strictly for the players to have fun in the time they have available. What works in pen-and-paper doesn't necessarily (and usually does not) work for an online game (or, really, any video game if you want to get more specific and accurate about it).

I guess I find soloing elite to still be an accomplishment, which must be simply because I don't play min-max builds. Instead, I play builds I think will be fun and, sometimes, builds that are a little off the wall. Sometimes that works out for me (11 ranger/6 monk/3 paladin longsword user) and sometimes it doesn't (3 wizard/2 cleric, not very fun).

Enoach

08-20-2015, 01:08 PM

... and sometimes it doesn't (3 wizard/2 cleric, not very fun).

And while in PnP I played a Wizard/Cleric Split I see two things that would need to be added to DDO to make these type of builds less crippled.

Practiced Spell Caster Feat - This would also improve the Ftr/{Arcane/Divine} builds as well
Enhancement Trees that are Unlocked when a multi-class exists*

*Examples
- When Cleric/Wizard classes are present the Trees Mystic Theurge and Necromancer (Not to be confused with Pale Master)

The way the Trees are developed this may be a possibility. Of course we would need the Feat (or have the Tree itself assist by giving access to higher class abilities/Caster Levels)

UurlockYgmeov

08-20-2015, 02:08 PM

I heal others all the time.

...and I play Rangers.

I know the feeling.... as a barbarian, as a sorc, as a fighter, monk, do the same. It isn't the role that has changed, it is the lack of appreciation for it. I look forward to Uurlock's lives as a cleric - just walking along and healing peeps... :P

Clerics ( dedicated healers) do more for DPS than pretty much anyone - allowing the real DPS's to concentrate on well, DPS instead of chugging pots, or taking a second out of combat to cocoon themselves etc.:cool:

jellyfish21

08-20-2015, 02:25 PM

Coyopa

08-20-2015, 02:29 PM

And while in PnP I played a Wizard/Cleric Split I see two things that would need to be added to DDO to make these type of builds less crippled.

Practiced Spell Caster Feat - This would also improve the Ftr/{Arcane/Divine} builds as well
Enhancement Trees that are Unlocked when a multi-class exists*

*Examples
- When Cleric/Wizard classes are present the Trees Mystic Theurge and Necromancer (Not to be confused with Pale Master)

The way the Trees are developed this may be a possibility. Of course we would need the Feat (or have the Tree itself assist by giving access to higher class abilities/Caster Levels)

Part of the problem with my wizard/cleric build is the number of points that have to be spent in each of several trees to get really worthwhile abilities. For example, I want the NEB SLA from Divine Disciple, but that takes 20 AP to unlock, and another 3 to get full benefit from. To get my ASF down, I have to spend about the same in Eldritch Knight, plus I need to spend 4 in the Drow racial tree. Then, of course, I want a bunch of stuff from Palemaster. I was hoping to do some meleeing with this character, which means I want to spend 12 points in Harper for Intelligence to Attack and Damage. I know there is a path in there somewhere. I just have to figure out whether I want to be more melee oriented or more caster oriented, and then I have to accept the gimping of the one I don't choose.

EDIT: What would help is if the Divine Disciple cores that give additional spells gave those as SLA's instead. For example, I would love to have Necrotic Ray as an SLA, but the level 6 DD core actually just adds it to your spell book. Pointless.

Coyopa

08-20-2015, 02:33 PM

Simple Fix: Introduce mass heal staves.

There will be no wait for a healer. Most everyone in EE quests can manage the UMD. Take turns in your guild as to who will equip this stave.

The biggest problem in playing a complete healer is pick up groups on EE.
A) Dodge is inefficient with the current DDO release; I blame the developers on this.
B) People do not understand to allow the tank to assume initial aggravation.
C) Tanks must intensely farm items for physical resistance.
D) People who play arcane classes need to de-buff enemies more.
E) Finally, and true enough, Favored Souls and Sorcerers need their spell list changed, to accommodate EE, to give them a unique role and to engage players to have the variety we want in EE content.

{Part 'E' above is an ongoing problem because the only difference between wizard/cleric and sorcerer/favored soul are their enhancement trees, deeply argumentatively a hot topic by people who like wizards.}

Part of the problem is that people are accustomed to just running in and using the abilities that do the most damage to the highest number of enemies at once. So, when I'm playing my bard, what could be a manageable encounter can quickly turn into a wipe because people are AoE nuking/attacking/etc everything, instead of focusing on one or two enemies out of the group I just Enthralled (or Fascinated). Sometimes, it's just better for me to play by myself on my bard because I can Enthrall/Fascinate a group of enemies and pick them apart one at a time. Sure, it's a lot slower than if I had a group that was picking the enemies apart one at a time, but it also comes with the benefit of a lower chance of dying.

Uska

08-20-2015, 02:37 PM

Because it's bad design. Period. The monsters in every quest should be designed with two basic truths in mind:

1. They will be fighting a 4-person party. If the party has fewer than 4 people (including hirelings), then it will be tougher, and should then provide a slight bump in XP. If the party has more than 4 people (including hirelings), there should be a slight reduction in XP.
2. They will be designed properly according to the Challenge Rating and Encounter Level rules provided in the pnp game. Which means, for example, if you have a party of four 5th level characters, they should not be fighting 6 CR 6 monsters, or 6 CR 10 monsters, or any of the other hyperinflated numbers used in this game.

Neither one of these is currently the state of affairs. Monster hit points should not fluctuate based on the number of party members.

Not everyone knows how to use that phrase properly either. But the simple truth is Eberron is a high magic setting (intentionally). If you prefer low magic settings, then a game set in Eberron (or the Realms) is not the one for you. Working to make it so is nonsensical and a failure to understand the setting.

No we are well beyond high magic game and the loot level and power make the worst PnP monty haul gamer look like a miser. I could enjoy and have enjoyed high magic games not my top choice but its not what we are. Most people probably wouldnt like my choice for pnp since characters usually have stats lower than what the munchkins like and the magic is sparse.

Back when the game was young it was something to get one of the great weapons vorpal, paralyzing or the holy grail wounding of piercing I know that levels would go up but not to the insane levels they have.

Darkmits

08-21-2015, 05:58 PM

Angelic-council

08-21-2015, 11:36 PM

As it has been said, the reason soloing is prefered over grouping, outside of the fact that you do not have to wait for a group to gather up, is that when you're solo, you know exactly what you'll do and what you can do, whereas in a group you are playing roulette with finding like-minded and like-skilled players. Earlier today I tried to do a lvl6 Kundarak quest on Elite on my lvl10 bard (yes, I am not as good to the game as the rest of you), so I formed a LFG ad. Quickly enough, 2 players joined. First player said "Hi!", second player didn't say anything. I told them that I like to clear quests as much as possible, so that I'd like to go for full bonus exp and all optionals. None responded, I guess because they were too busy competing for kills. 2 minutes later, while I was still trying to clear an optional room, I saw the quest completion panel. 5 seconds later, the duo left without even saying "ty bb". I was left alone without even 10% Aggression bonus, no Disarm bonus, just 10% Insight bonus due to the one secret door I found, no Destruction bonus, no optional completed.

This hasn't occured once, it's not a "once in a blue moon" happening. This is actually the norm, both in DDO and in other MMOs. Now we have the argument that zerging is encouraged and that healing is discouraged because it prevents zerging. So here's my idea on how to encourage grouping and how to discourage zerging without nerfing a single class/build:

- Reduce all base quest xp by 35%
- Removal of BB (players shouldn't have to wait for groups if they still want to solo, and BB is currently too important a bonus to miss out)
- Increase Conquest bonus to 50%
- Increase Destruction bonus to 50%
- Increase Vigilant Sight bonus to 50%
- Increase Disarm bonus to 50%
- Increase all optional quest xp by 100%
- Implement new xp bonus for grouping: Group Size - Bonus xp: 1-0%, 2-5%, 3-10%, 4-15%, 5-20%, >=6 - 25%. This takes into account any group members that do not have late-join penalty
- Remove all death/reentry penalties (I shouldn't be punished if I as tank die because the designated healer didn't keep me up due to their own lack of performance)

What would the above achieve? I predict:
- Soloing speed/efficiency not impacted in the absolute minimum. What it effects though is xp gained
- Encourage grouping due to the Group Size bonus, and because of the incentive to also achieve the other optionals
- Due to having to explore more and encounter more enemies, higher sustain required, which also encourages having a healer / buffer / mp replenisher
- Encourages trying to have a trapper for the 50% Disarm bonus, as well as for random traps that simply block paths to optional parts of the dungeon
- Excluding BB, Optional subquests and Group Size bonus, total xp earned currently with max bonuses (almost) equals total xp earned with the above with max bonuses. However, in my suggestion, xp is backloaded into the optionals instead of being frontloaded into reaching the end of the quest itself (as it is now).
- It would allow players to form groups for other difficulties as well, since BB is (in my opinion) the main reason why HE is the difficulty run in 99%+ of total instances.
- And of course, it would be an active penalty/nerf to xp per min for soloists.

Cutting base EXP by 35% would ruin this game. People don't appreciate more exploring when they need quick EXP. We currently have 2 separate games: heroic and epic. From lv1 - 20 and lv20 - 28, there are so many quests that chances of someone actually joining your group would be low. We might have 100 - 200 active players online today in each server, but many of them solo, run with friends or AFK (doing something else). Yes, this is not always the case, but it would be best for us if we keep EXP as it is. Because this does nothing to encourage healers.

The only way to bring more healing value would be to give DDO a strong end game. Trust me. Everything else is just a talk :/

Simulacrum_FRG

08-22-2015, 12:10 AM

@ Darkmits ambition: While it is nice that opinions vary I cannot agree on the XP being balanced. Solo play is much more difficult and much less rewarding. Especially rogues face this problem when learning their specialty. Oh, I mean the trap finding & disarming, not the powergaming kill-it-all and rush onward.

I went thru some mission with traps which actually really kill a 300 to 600 HitPoint brute. Sadly though they kill anybody else, specifically the revivers, along with it!

Early on the SoundTrap in 'The Graverobber' at House Jorasco is a fine example of the elite-craze. At seventh level very few have the skills and boosters due gear to even find the trap, let alone disarm it successfully. Damage reduction sound 35 is futile, when you die with around -133 hitpoints. Same on 'Diehard' feat.

Soloing is hard work, very much more risky, and the rewards for completely clearing a dungeon or beating an adventure are... LOW! Idiot-Rush on Elite and you can rise 2 levels per day easily, usually within two hours at maximum. Elite loot, loads of XP for being a mindless brute (barbarian mindset at best). But it works. My artificer has reached level 17 from level 10 in merely four days of joining elite-runs with whomever, wherever and why-ever.

No roleplaying, no fun, no atmosphere, but the loot and XP makes it a win. Actually precisely encouraging bad roleplay and treating others like ...

'The Missing' was another mission I soloed. On casual, as my level was too low for it. With a cleric hireling it could be done, and it was a very atmospheric story in my own opinion. But it yielded harshly 8000 XP where an elite-rush yields around 29000 XP. That makes a difference about what players arise easily, and what is left behind or abandoned.

On casual, once more mentioned, the mission 'The Church and the Cult' was a nice rogue-only in my opinion.

A GUILD could help. Recruiting only casual players who really INDULGE the missions instead of running through in powergaming-frenzy. Just an idea.

Servers... nice excuse that only 100 or 200 people are there, but then it would either be time to combine the servers into half the amount, so players can meet likeminded, or to make servers in different flavors, so people can choose IF they come for solo, raid, team-up or PvP... Just an idea.

'The Fashion Show' was one more weird but atmospheric solo. Like breaks from elite-running to ensure we all have the minimal skills needed to consider ourselves gamers of DDO.

I have the ambition to reincarnate my elven artificer. And I am not above befriending powergamers and teaming-up with them on rush-terms for it. Still the only atmospheric roleplay and make me spend money on it comes mostly from solo AND the really chosen few friends who are fun to adventure with. But such belongs to roleplay which is nearly unknown, and in my opinion too discouraged, on all the servers.

I noticed a lot of players running ELITE with a WIKI or other website map of the quest to do. I am happy that I learned to enjoy different kicks, not just being a selfish moron about it and wondering why professionals call it an anti-social personality disorder.

Specifically HEALING: Troll Rings are useless, as they do not even make one arise, if one took diehard feat. Further even the automated repair unit of any Iron Defender heals more in less time. Raise their healing rate, make it cursed Charisma -4, as trolls are not really charmers...

Lay on Hands heals Warforged just as it does Living. Clerics henceforth separate from Artificers. There should be a feat to adapt it, alike the enhancement tree choice a Warforged has on healing or repair.

Goodbye!

redoubt

08-22-2015, 12:12 AM

- It would allow players to form groups for other difficulties as well, since BB is (in my opinion) the main reason why HE is the difficulty run in 99%+ of total instances.
.

Elite still has the bigger first time bonus and gives the most renown. I run elite for 3 reasons, about equally:

1. best xp
2. best renown
3. hard is boring (though heroic elite is getting more boring with each update)

Darkmits

08-22-2015, 07:39 AM

Cutting base EXP by 35% would ruin this game. The only way to bring more healing value would be to give DDO a strong end game. Trust me. Everything else is just a talk :/While typing my suggestion, I was considering lots of values for the numbers I presented, all the way up to 200% bonuses. Initially I didn't have any Base EXP reduction in mind, but noticed that if bonus EXP was simply increased to 50% in those 4 departments without any base EXP reduction, then with the addition of a possible 25% from Group Size, it would increase total possible EXP earned per quest by 61,25%, which would have the following results:
1) Players with a lot of content unlocked that go for max favor per life would be earning enough EXP to surpass quest level or even reach EXP banking limit. This has the side-effect that players without lot of content would find that they do not need to purchase content so as to reduce having to rerun the same quests.
2) It would make experience potions less desirable, and that's something that I guess Turbine doesn't want to happen.

I disagree about the strong end-game being the only part of the game where healing needs to be relevant. All roles should be relevant in their own department throughout the levels. Otherwise we should have only one template until level 27 and then at 28 we should select Class, ED, Feats and such to give us an identity as a character. The current issue is, as others have said, that DDO has shifted too much into mass-AoE-soloing, akin to other MMOs. My intention isn't to reduce what people who want to solo can do, it's to give more incentive to group up and play as a group and even stop and wait for all optional content. So in order to give this incentive, I suggest moving the sought reward (total experience earned) to activities that promote that behaviour.

Solo play is much more difficult and much less rewarding. Especially rogues face this problem when learning their specialty. Oh, I mean the trap finding & disarming, not the powergaming kill-it-all and rush onward.I agree, but since it is more difficulty and less rewarding, why is it the go-to playstyle? Simply because it is in fact more rewarding, as in more exp/min, which is what players are after until they reach level cap with whatever past lives they wish. My intention is to shift more exp/min when in groups, even if it means having to wait a bit for people to gather. It's also the reason why I the Group Size bonus I suggested is lower than the rest, so as to give more incentive to having players that can perform the Disarm / Secret Finding / Mass killing / High Sustain rather than just find 5 random peeps and go.

Servers... nice excuse that only 100 or 200 people are there, but then it would either be time to combine the servers into half the amount, so players can meet likeminded, or to make servers in different flavors, so people can choose IF they come for solo, raid, team-up or PvP... Just an idea.This is something I agree with. Population seems to be low according to what I read on the forums accross most of the 7 servers, so unless there are severe technical difficulties that could arise from implementing it, as well as duplicate names, then it sounds as if it's something Turbine should focus on.

Coyopa

08-22-2015, 08:58 AM

As it has been said, the reason soloing is prefered over grouping, outside of the fact that you do not have to wait for a group to gather up, is that when you're solo, you know exactly what you'll do and what you can do, whereas in a group you are playing roulette with finding like-minded and like-skilled players. Earlier today I tried to do a lvl6 Kundarak quest on Elite on my lvl10 bard (yes, I am not as good to the game as the rest of you), so I formed a LFG ad. Quickly enough, 2 players joined. First player said "Hi!", second player didn't say anything. I told them that I like to clear quests as much as possible, so that I'd like to go for full bonus exp and all optionals. None responded, I guess because they were too busy competing for kills. 2 minutes later, while I was still trying to clear an optional room, I saw the quest completion panel. 5 seconds later, the duo left without even saying "ty bb". I was left alone without even 10% Aggression bonus, no Disarm bonus, just 10% Insight bonus due to the one secret door I found, no Destruction bonus, no optional completed.

This hasn't occured once, it's not a "once in a blue moon" happening. This is actually the norm, both in DDO and in other MMOs. Now we have the argument that zerging is encouraged and that healing is discouraged because it prevents zerging. So here's my idea on how to encourage grouping and how to discourage zerging without nerfing a single class/build:

- Reduce all base quest xp by 35%
- Removal of BB (players shouldn't have to wait for groups if they still want to solo, and BB is currently too important a bonus to miss out)
- Increase Conquest bonus to 50%
- Increase Destruction bonus to 50%
- Increase Vigilant Sight bonus to 50%
- Increase Disarm bonus to 50%
- Increase all optional quest xp by 100%
- Implement new xp bonus for grouping: Group Size - Bonus xp: 1-0%, 2-5%, 3-10%, 4-15%, 5-20%, >=6 - 25%. This takes into account any group members that do not have late-join penalty
- Remove all death/reentry penalties (I shouldn't be punished if I as tank die because the designated healer didn't keep me up due to their own lack of performance)

What would the above achieve? I predict:
- Soloing speed/efficiency not impacted in the absolute minimum. What it effects though is xp gained
- Encourage grouping due to the Group Size bonus, and because of the incentive to also achieve the other optionals
- Due to having to explore more and encounter more enemies, higher sustain required, which also encourages having a healer / buffer / mp replenisher
- Encourages trying to have a trapper for the 50% Disarm bonus, as well as for random traps that simply block paths to optional parts of the dungeon
- Excluding BB, Optional subquests and Group Size bonus, total xp earned currently with max bonuses (almost) equals total xp earned with the above with max bonuses. However, in my suggestion, xp is backloaded into the optionals instead of being frontloaded into reaching the end of the quest itself (as it is now).
- It would allow players to form groups for other difficulties as well, since BB is (in my opinion) the main reason why HE is the difficulty run in 99%+ of total instances.
- And of course, it would be an active penalty/nerf to xp per min for soloists.

It's nice that you're trying to help, but your idea for reducing base quest experience is terrible. You're forgetting there are quests in this game that really don't have optionals. There are some you can't achieve any level of ransack, conquest, or any other bonuses (like no secret doors!). The other thing you seem to be unaware of is that it is possible to do some quests using stealth alone. I've solo'd The Missing, Blockade Buster, and some others using stealth on my rogue.

From the sounds of it, you're having bad luck finding the wrong people to run quests with. My guildie and I regularly TR and we move very quickly through quests. However, we also break everything to get ransack, kill everything that moves, disarm traps, and find all the secret doors. Quite often, we'll put up LFMs for people to join us (since it's more fun and makes the quests go quicker). As far as removing death and re-entry penalties, if you're a tank and you die, then it's at least as much your fault as it is the "healer's". Get better damage mitigation, some sources of healing (whatever might be available to you; potions at least), and make sure you can cure your own status ailments (remove curse, remove disease, neutralize poison, cure blindness). You're apparently unaware there are no "designated healers" in this game anymore. It also sounds like you're the type of person who's going to scream at the "healer" if you feel they're not doing a good enough job babysitting your red bar. Well, let me tell you that's a quick way to become a permanent soul stone in a quest. If I decide to serve as the primary healer for the group and you start berating me because I'm not doing a good enough job, I'll stop healing you entirely immediately and you'll never get even as much as a Raise Dead cast on you by me - not even from a scroll. If you keep whining about it, I'll also tote your soul stone far from any shrine and leave you there. Finally, if I'm the party leader, as soon as you release, I'll kick you from the group.

Darkmits

08-22-2015, 09:53 AM

It's nice that you're trying to help, but your idea for reducing base quest experience is terrible. You're forgetting there are quests in this game that really don't have optionals. There are some you can't achieve any level of ransack, conquest, or any other bonuses (like no secret doors!). The other thing you seem to be unaware of is that it is possible to do some quests using stealth alone. I've solo'd The Missing, Blockade Buster, and some others using stealth on my rogue.Yes, I know there are such quests, they represent a very small number though compared to the total quests, even compared to pure f2p quests. I also forgot that I should have included the bonus of not-killing anything.

Regarding the rest of your post, you have made some wrong assumptions, I actually wonder why you think of me as some selfcentered antisocial egomaniac. I actually play like a healbot, I prefer being in the backlines, throwing heals and buffs, and conserving mana by letting others do the killing while I keep them alive. I also like collecting everything that drops and re-organising my bars with scrolls and potions when at Rest Shrines. But this type of gameplay is dead. Nowadays, anything below 100% of theoretical maximum dps output is treated like a personal insult. I have been removed from groups because I was one room behind, I have been removed because I asked for a 1min break at a shrine to organise my bars (I remember the reply: "why are you using the Rest Shrine in the first place???"). It's not bad luck, this is not just even the average, it's the crushing majority of the playerbase nowadays, evident throughout the majority of Online games.

Btw I have played the role of the aggressor as well, which is why I can sympathise with players who take on the attention of enemies but fall due to the rest of the group not being on par for one reason or another (lack of experience, lag, and such). No, I do not snap at others unless they snap at me first for being slow, but it's still not very nice or helpful when you see -20% in your exp log.

Talon_Moonshadow

08-22-2015, 10:16 AM

I know the feeling.... as a barbarian, as a sorc, as a fighter, monk, do the same. It isn't the role that has changed, it is the lack of appreciation for it. I look forward to Uurlock's lives as a cleric - just walking along and healing peeps... :P

Clerics ( dedicated healers) do more for DPS than pretty much anyone - allowing the real DPS's to concentrate on well, DPS instead of chugging pots, or taking a second out of combat to cocoon themselves etc.:cool:

IMO, we should strive for not having a "role" or dedicated healer most of the time. (some raids excepted)

I have always been for self sufficient, adaptable characters... who help each other as best they can.

But it seems that although the BYOH LFMs have tapered off, there are a lot of players that do not seem to have their own healing. So I end up throwing them a lot of heals.
(which I do not mind, but I do think they need to have their own.)

Coyopa

08-22-2015, 11:40 AM

Yes, I know there are such quests, they represent a very small number though compared to the total quests, even compared to pure f2p quests. I also forgot that I should have included the bonus of not-killing anything.

Regarding the rest of your post, you have made some wrong assumptions, I actually wonder why you think of me as some selfcentered antisocial egomaniac. I actually play like a healbot, I prefer being in the backlines, throwing heals and buffs, and conserving mana by letting others do the killing while I keep them alive. I also like collecting everything that drops and re-organising my bars with scrolls and potions when at Rest Shrines. But this type of gameplay is dead. Nowadays, anything below 100% of theoretical maximum dps output is treated like a personal insult. I have been removed from groups because I was one room behind, I have been removed because I asked for a 1min break at a shrine to organise my bars (I remember the reply: "why are you using the Rest Shrine in the first place???"). It's not bad luck, this is not just even the average, it's the crushing majority of the playerbase nowadays, evident throughout the majority of Online games.

Btw I have played the role of the aggressor as well, which is why I can sympathise with players who take on the attention of enemies but fall due to the rest of the group not being on par for one reason or another (lack of experience, lag, and such). No, I do not snap at others unless they snap at me first for being slow, but it's still not very nice or helpful when you see -20% in your exp log.

Just because stealthable quests are in the minority doesn't mean you should punish people who use stealth for using it - which is exactly what your proposal would do. But hey, who cares right? We should all be grouping! All the time!!

As for re-organising your bars while at Rest Shrines, why aren't they organised before you step into the quest? If you're spending several minutes twaddling with your hotbars at Rest Shrines, you're doing it wrong. I wouldn't say anything to you about it (unless you do it nearly constantly) because I wouldn't care. This is mainly because I wouldn't be relying on you to provide my healing, anyway, and also because I can finish the quest with or without you. So, if you pike at the shrine, whatever. Do it often enough and I'll eventually say something. If your response is "I was twaddling with my hotbars" every time, I probably wouldn't run with you again in the future. So, I can see where some people might kick you. I wouldn't kick you, but you'd probably get friended with a note reminding me to avoid you.

Your problem, as you've now explained, is that you're not providing any DPS and you're not proving heals all the time, either. If you were removed from a group for being one room behind, then you were probably one room behind for significant parts of a few quests. Most people will kick you for that. I've never heard anyone get upset because someone was using the shrine .... except for when that person already had nearly full health, nearly full sp, and really had no reason to use the shrine (such as changing spells because the foes/challenges in the quest are about to change). Sounds to me like you need to become more skilled as a player.

Darkmits

08-22-2015, 12:27 PM

Gremmlynn

08-22-2015, 01:44 PM

While typing my suggestion, I was considering lots of values for the numbers I presented, all the way up to 200% bonuses. Initially I didn't have any Base EXP reduction in mind, but noticed that if bonus EXP was simply increased to 50% in those 4 departments without any base EXP reduction, then with the addition of a possible 25% from Group Size, it would increase total possible EXP earned per quest by 61,25%, which would have the following results:
1) Players with a lot of content unlocked that go for max favor per life would be earning enough EXP to surpass quest level or even reach EXP banking limit. This has the side-effect that players without lot of content would find that they do not need to purchase content so as to reduce having to rerun the same quests.
2) It would make experience potions less desirable, and that's something that I guess Turbine doesn't want to happen.

I disagree about the strong end-game being the only part of the game where healing needs to be relevant. All roles should be relevant in their own department throughout the levels. Otherwise we should have only one template until level 27 and then at 28 we should select Class, ED, Feats and such to give us an identity as a character. The current issue is, as others have said, that DDO has shifted too much into mass-AoE-soloing, akin to other MMOs. My intention isn't to reduce what people who want to solo can do, it's to give more incentive to group up and play as a group and even stop and wait for all optional content. So in order to give this incentive, I suggest moving the sought reward (total experience earned) to activities that promote that behaviour.

I agree, but since it is more difficulty and less rewarding, why is it the go-to playstyle? Simply because it is in fact more rewarding, as in more exp/min, which is what players are after until they reach level cap with whatever past lives they wish. My intention is to shift more exp/min when in groups, even if it means having to wait a bit for people to gather. It's also the reason why I the Group Size bonus I suggested is lower than the rest, so as to give more incentive to having players that can perform the Disarm / Secret Finding / Mass killing / High Sustain rather than just find 5 random peeps and go.

This is something I agree with. Population seems to be low according to what I read on the forums accross most of the 7 servers, so unless there are severe technical difficulties that could arise from implementing it, as well as duplicate names, then it sounds as if it's something Turbine should focus on.The problem is that the more conditions you put on what is needed to successfully play the game in terms of other players and what and how they play, the more it gets in the way of actually playing. At some point it becomes more trouble than it's worth to even bother with the game. There is a reason DDO has become more like other MMOs, it's because that's what works and what they were doing wasn't or they would still be doing it.

Gremmlynn

08-22-2015, 02:00 PM

Coyopa

08-22-2015, 02:17 PM

As I said, by today's standards I'm slow. I destroy all crates, I try to find all secrets etc. This is incompatible with the dogma of max dps / head to final boss, which is why I've been kicked. From the point of view of the zergers, I am rightfully kicked. I come from a different era and mentality, I pick up everything I come across, and I like discussing how to tackle a boss and waiting for others to be ready. This is incompatible with today's DDO.

This thread is about how to bring back the value of healing (and along with that grouping) without nerfing classes and builds, and I proposed my suggestion along with reasoning why I picked such numbers and what I expected that such changes could accomplish. It should be no surprise that since exp/min is the final target of every player, then to encourage any activity within the game is to grant this extra exp/min. But if grouping ends up being more exp/min than solozerging, it automatically means that solozerging isn't optimal, which explains why you are so hostile against it.

You must have missed the part where I explicitly stated that I go for ransack, conquest, debilitation, and perception bonuses. Getting that optional experience doesn't mean you have to go slow. I do this even when I'm in a full party and other people are ahead of me in the dungeon. Granted, I'm never far behind, unless I've showed up late. What I'm against is people who are intentionally wasting time on things that are better done outside the quest and then trying to blame the fact they have a hard time getting and keeping groups on people wanting fast completions. What you're describing yourself doing is called "dawdling". I don't have time for that. I only get a certain amount of time each week to play (mostly on the weekends, but about an hour on weeknights) and I'm not going to waste it waiting for people who can't get themselves organized before the quest starts. I move quickly through each quest, getting all the optional bonuses that are available, and I'm able to get quests done in 15 to 25 minutes even with all that. So, if you're actually slowing your party down because you want to dink around with your hotbars and your inventory, then you've only got yourself to blame for difficulty grouping. I'm constantly grouping now and I never hear anyone whine or complain about me breaking things. In fact, one of the groups I was in last weekend, I went off and killed the Fire Reaver in Servants. The rest of the group went and headed toward the end of the quest. I caught up right at the start of the last fight and nobody said a word; neither did they kick me from the group. No, instead we all went on to Spinner of Shadows and had more fun getting more experience.

Coyopa

08-22-2015, 02:18 PM

Actually, what you propose is an across the board loss of xp due to the 0xp/minute we get for those minutes used forming a group up. The more picky we have to be about it's composition to actually make up for the changes, the more likely that soloing will still be the best xp/minute, just at the much lower rate of xp that you propose.

You seem to be missing that xp/minute generally refers to every minute from log in to log out, not just the time actually spent in quests.

What makes soloing and IP questing popular is that any time spent not in a quest is time spent, basically, not playing the game regardless of being logged into it. DDO lacks a real level of play below questing that most games have to provide players with something useful to do while waiting for those well balanced groups to form.

The bolded, italicized, underlined part. 1000 times that.

Gremmlynn

08-22-2015, 02:34 PM

You must have missed the part where I explicitly stated that I go for ransack, conquest, debilitation, and perception bonuses. Getting that optional experience doesn't mean you have to go slow. I do this even when I'm in a full party and other people are ahead of me in the dungeon. Granted, I'm never far behind, unless I've showed up late. What I'm against is people who are intentionally wasting time on things that are better done outside the quest and then trying to blame the fact they have a hard time getting and keeping groups on people wanting fast completions. What you're describing yourself doing is called "dawdling". I don't have time for that. I only get a certain amount of time each week to play (mostly on the weekends, but about an hour on weeknights) and I'm not going to waste it waiting for people who can't get themselves organized before the quest starts. I move quickly through each quest, getting all the optional bonuses that are available, and I'm able to get quests done in 15 to 25 minutes even with all that. So, if you're actually slowing your party down because you want to dink around with your hotbars and your inventory, then you've only got yourself to blame for difficulty grouping. I'm constantly grouping now and I never hear anyone whine or complain about me breaking things. In fact, one of the groups I was in last weekend, I went off and killed the Fire Reaver in Servants. The rest of the group went and headed toward the end of the quest. I caught up right at the start of the last fight and nobody said a word; neither did they kick me from the group. No, instead we all went on to Spinner of Shadows and had more fun getting more experience.I'm going to have to come to their defense here to a degree. What they describe doing while dwadling, seems to be something that was intended with the game, but just isn't really feasible with how it's played. That is, using any useful loot from chests and breakables to help in completing the content they drop in. That seems, to me at least, to be the intended purpose for those potions and scrolls that drop randomly. Though most of us just stock up quantities of anything we find useful and just vendor dump anything that doesn't go to those stacks. So anything not already hot barred is mostly ignored.

Coyopa

08-22-2015, 02:38 PM

I'm going to have to come to their defense here to a degree. What they describe doing while dwadling, seems to be something that was intended with the game, but just isn't really feasible with how it's played. That is, using any useful loot from chests and breakables to help in completing the content they drop in. That seems, to me at least, to be the intended purpose for those potions and scrolls that drop randomly. Though most of us just stock up quantities of anything we find useful and just vendor dump anything that doesn't go to those stacks. So anything not already hot barred is mostly ignored.

OK. I suppose I can see that. That happens occasionally even now, where someone loots something useful and then either uses it or gives it to someone else in the party to use. Most people are simply organized enough, as you noted, that they don't rely on chest drops during a quest.

Angelic-council

08-22-2015, 06:11 PM

While typing my suggestion, I was considering lots of values for the numbers I presented, all the way up to 200% bonuses. Initially I didn't have any Base EXP reduction in mind, but noticed that if bonus EXP was simply increased to 50% in those 4 departments without any base EXP reduction, then with the addition of a possible 25% from Group Size, it would increase total possible EXP earned per quest by 61,25%, which would have the following results:
1) Players with a lot of content unlocked that go for max favor per life would be earning enough EXP to surpass quest level or even reach EXP banking limit. This has the side-effect that players without lot of content would find that they do not need to purchase content so as to reduce having to rerun the same quests.
2) It would make experience potions less desirable, and that's something that I guess Turbine doesn't want to happen.

I disagree about the strong end-game being the only part of the game where healing needs to be relevant. All roles should be relevant in their own department throughout the levels. Otherwise we should have only one template until level 27 and then at 28 we should select Class, ED, Feats and such to give us an identity as a character. The current issue is, as others have said, that DDO has shifted too much into mass-AoE-soloing, akin to other MMOs. My intention isn't to reduce what people who want to solo can do, it's to give more incentive to group up and play as a group and even stop and wait for all optional content. So in order to give this incentive, I suggest moving the sought reward (total experience earned) to activities that promote that behaviour.

You are trying to force people do something here, which is not right. People should feel free to explore and finish it fast by zerging at will (while leveling). That's why it should be kept as it is. Your idea is too simple, you don't think about concequences. No need to change the way how EXP work.

You are disagreeing about the end game. But that's where people are most relaxed: running in main destiny with 100% strength. Your idea will not promote anything, but extend short run to a long run. DDO is not a game where your party could fill right away.

You personally play slow, you haven't experienced all the options yet. It might be hard for you to understand.