DDOCast 394 - DDO Debates: The Big Important Stuff [Archive]

pjstechie

08-15-2015, 10:46 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_gsaZJhOWw

Lessah guest moderates this installment of DDO Debates that covers the big important things in DDO right now - so big that our panel needed an extra person! Enjoy Samius Gurobo, Axel, Chai & Shamgar as they discuss and debate several topics!

Have thoughts on this show, ideas for round table topics, questions you want to ask us, or topics you’d like to see us debate? Leave us a comment, send us an email (ddocast@gmail.com) or give us a tweet (@ddocast)!

Check out www.ddocast.com for mp3 audio, our show calendar, swag, archives, and more!

Want to support the show? You can feed the kobolds (give money) on our website www.ddocast.com! We use these gifts to support the show and give out prizes.

DDO Debates - 1:22
Do we need a new difficulty? What should the new difficulty be? - 7:04
What is the worst designed raid? - 27:34
What do you want to see for a raid? - 41:41
Are classes balanced with each other and the game? What class is over performing? What class is underperforming? - 52:03
Are monster champions good for the game? Are they working? - 1:03:47
What game system needs to be revisited and/or expanded? - 1:13:56
Did the armor up PRR/MRR changes go to far? Are they too good? - 1:25:44
What should the necessary XP look like to get to level 30? - 1:37:58
What should the new DnD movie be? - 1:44:18
Closing - 1:53:50

Vargouille

08-31-2015, 02:15 PM

I've been behind on DDO blogcastsocialspheremediums, but I made a point to make sure I got through this whole show since it was so topical and full of crunchy bits. Finally did, good show as usual, well done all.

Just the table of contents is exciting. If others have thoughts, chime on in. (The first topic may have had plenty said recently... =)

Do we need a new difficulty? What should the new difficulty be? - 7:04 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2050&v=a_gsaZJhOWw#)
What is the worst designed raid? - 27:34 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2050&v=a_gsaZJhOWw#)
What do you want to see for a raid? - 41:41 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2050&v=a_gsaZJhOWw#)
Are classes balanced with each other and the game? What class is over performing? What class is underperforming? - 52:03 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2050&v=a_gsaZJhOWw#)
Are monster champions good for the game? Are they working? - 1:03:47 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2050&v=a_gsaZJhOWw#)
What game system needs to be revisited and/or expanded? - 1:13:56 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2050&v=a_gsaZJhOWw#)
Did the armor up PRR/MRR changes go to far? Are they too good? - 1:25:44 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2050&v=a_gsaZJhOWw#)
What should the necessary XP look like to get to level 30? - 1:37:58 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2050&v=a_gsaZJhOWw#)
What should the new DnD movie be? - 1:44:18 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2050&v=a_gsaZJhOWw#)

This particular 'cast has at least an hour on "DDO systems/areas Vargouille has contributed to and/or will contribute to in the future", so extra thanks for an episode almost custom made for meeeeeeeeee.

/onlyafewweekslatesamemonthcloseenough

Qhualor

08-31-2015, 04:09 PM

I don't listen or watch these kinds of things very much, but this one had some good hot topics and really enjoyed listening.

and when/if these changes happen, I now know who to blame :D

UurlockYgmeov

08-31-2015, 04:25 PM

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/EnPsyane/90318-1-1-1.jpg~original

Hafeal

08-31-2015, 06:12 PM

Varg -

Thanks for the insight, again, to demonstrate the devs listen to the player base.

Patrick & Co. at DDOCast -

First and foremost, thank you for the show and all you do. I really appreciate and enjoy the podcast - even when I may disagree or wish someone had added another thought that seemed to be missing.

If I have *one* constructive criticism - of this podcast particularly, I perceive a lack of insight for the truly casual player and little more than lip service for new players. The guests - while entertaining and very insightful, are often talking on points that casual players may be a long way from enjoying. I think a casual perspective would be helpful to round out the conversations.

:cool:

Gratch

08-31-2015, 06:33 PM

Heh... I like that during the "Worst Designed Raid Ever" there wasn't a single mention of Caught in the Web.

Despite the ~40 pages of Lama threads calling it the "Worst DESIGNED Raid Ever" during its debug as well as outright attacks on the developers. How dare you design a raid that makes us walk some girl all over a map!!!! HOW DARE YOU!
Or the 20 pages on the live forum with the same discussion.
Take that forumers who think they know which raid will be the best designed and which the worst (in current hindsight mode).

It may only be middle of the road raid now, but not one mention of being the worst designed from the panel.

Edit: Updated and expanded with greater use of "Designed"

pjstechie

08-31-2015, 06:54 PM

If I have *one* constructive criticism - of this podcast particularly, I perceive a lack of insight for the truly casual player and little more than lip service for new players. The guests - while entertaining and very insightful, are often talking on points that casual players may be a long way from enjoying. I think a casual perspective would be helpful to round out the conversations.

thanks for the critique, it's something I'm aware of but is challenging for me specifically. I have a long playing experience so it is sometimes difficult to wrap my head around that perspective. There are a couple guests that are more new player friendly minded than I - and I confess I have voiced my own approach, gotten feedback, and changed my approach.

what would be greatly beneficial to me as I prepare for the cast are specific topics you think we should cover. I have a list, but it is dwindling and it is in large part a list that I created. It's not easy coming up with a topic every week and finding a set of guests that are really in their forte to talk about it. (Sometimes I've had guests that were "off topic" where their knowledge is concerned and its showed in the end result and feedback). This is something I ask for every week because I want to be covering topics the listeners want to hear, but I rarely if ever get feedback on this.

I also think you will find this week's episode to your liking

pjstechie

08-31-2015, 06:56 PM

Heh... I like that during the "Worst Raid Ever" there wasn't a single mention of Caught in the Web.

Despite the ~40 pages of Lama threads calling it the "Worst Raid Ever" during its debug as well as outright attacks on the developers.
Or the 20 pages on the live forum with the same title.
Take that forumers who think they know which raid will be the best and which the worst (in current hindsight mode).

It may only be middle of the road raid now, but not one mention of being the worst from the panel.

I would point out that the question was about design, not how well it was released, how buggy it was, or how much we or players liked it

pjstechie

08-31-2015, 07:06 PM

This particular 'cast has at least an hour on "DDO systems/areas Vargouille has contributed to and/or will contribute to in the future", so extra thanks for an episode almost custom made for meeeeeeeeee.

glad you enjoyed it!

now about that Tarrasque....

Gratch

08-31-2015, 07:08 PM

I would point out that the question was about design, not how well it was released, how buggy it was, or how much we or players liked it

Eh... semantics. How well it's designed does lead to how well players enjoy it and the overwhelming complaint at the time was regarding the Design of the Raid being a protect raid (as well as complaining about pathing bugs, Anna disappearing bugs, etc). In truth as a raid it has multiple stages, a number of boss types, involves most everyone in the raid and still has relevant loot until you hit Thunderholme weapons.

Mostly just saying as someone who enjoyed it as something fun even when it had bugs at the start (as compared to a Titan, VoD single room final raid).

FranOhmsford

08-31-2015, 07:19 PM

FranOhmsford

08-31-2015, 07:34 PM

Clerics are massively underperforming compared to the game!
Their reason for being has been downgraded so significantly it's impossible to over-rate how much!
Their Melee DPS, Turns and Caster DPS/CC is massively weaker than other toons. And EE is completely out of reach for the majority of Pure {or close to Pure} Clerics!

DC Casting IS Dead so Wizards are hurting bad.

FvSs and Druids {Non Multiclassed Woof Builds} are also significantly underperforming compared to the game!

Monks {Pure} and Artis are seriously weak these days!

Sorcs, Fighters and Rangers are actually OK and would be the last on my list for a boost {which they WILL need once all other classes have got theirs!} - The boosts to them won't need to be much though.

As for over-performing - NOT Paladins! {Paladins are just right!}. - Holy Sword has been nerfed TWICE already {the second of which simply was not needed!}.
The actual classes that ARE over-performing are Warlocks and Barbarians!

FranOhmsford

08-31-2015, 07:49 PM

IronClan

08-31-2015, 08:28 PM

I too had a problem with the worst designed raid segment... touted as "worst ever" is one of the most intricately and interestingly designed raids Titan... Reasons cited were few and superficial.

The main reason cited has a trivial work around that second nature anyone who starts a Titan: It's hard to get to if you don't have someone greater teleport from the sub-t which is such a trivial work around that no one ever did a titan without doing that... Sure this is a bad design point... it's countered by using 1 spell. Wow... So if the players worked around it from day one how big should this really weight as a factor?

And because the end fight is a 3 to 5 person affair; because that's how we the players meta gamed it down NOT because it's designed that way, but because the players always find the path of least resistance and not fighting WF in the shard room is how the players decided to deal with it.

So two detractors in what is otherwise a brilliantly involving pre-raid VON5 like in having people participate (In my mind totally making up for the meta gamed deficiencies of the shorter end fight) and a very unique and different end fight that with one or two minor changes could have involved the whole raid group: make drones flood into doorways at the top and have the rest of the party fight them back. And/or Make the pillars regenerate so that DPS in needed on them at all times to keep them prepped.

On the other hand we have CITW perhaps forgotten because you're actually more liable to see a Titan on the LFM than a CITW?

Lets look at it's poor design points, NONE of which have easy peasy work around, or are just the result of how the player base meta gamed it:

CITW Requires getting to evening star then doing TEN FLAGGING QUESTS (I consider it 14 flagging quests to be honest but I don't feel like arguing the technicality that you could conceivably flag without doing LOD through Rift)... You know what no.... it requires 14 flagging quests lets call a spade a spade...

These quests require navigating the uber confusing/convoluted to travel underdark to tag portals when you don't know the way

They require navigating the uber confusing/convoluted Schyldrillalalaldeedahh a name only slightly less convoluted than the city layout, again until you've blundered about in their with red alert a few dozen times and even then you're liable to get dead ended a time or three even when you do know where everything is.

They require navigating the Demonweb pseudo randomized and yes also confusing and hard to navigate when you don't know the way or the "fall off a few times to get near the quest entrance" trick.

The raid is twice as long as it should be, it is pretty universally considered an overly long raid and padded with too many unneeded fights.

The SP drain mechanic is pretty much universally hated.

Escorting anna while thankfully not usually a challenge is none the less escorting a brain dead NPC something most players hate.

The loot is only weapons and a very limited selection of weapons this is bad design because a very good percentage of the player base simply didn't need those weapons! Out of probably 12 alts at the time I had TWO CHARACTERS that ever bothered to run the raid more than once. Unlike wearable items which can have much broader appeal, a raid with only weapons was bound to die pretty quickly. And then they dropped a Coup De Grace on it with the raiders reward boxes. I am half convinced that the reception of this raid was SO BAD that they actually intended to kill it with the reward boxes.

The drop rates were terrible among the worst ever in the game (right up there with Titan, if you want to put another X in titans Con's column go ahead), with 5 or 6 times more chests to pull from than most raids no less, it was just 5 or 6 times more disappointment and lack of things to roll on.

Comms dropped in FoT much more often meaning no need to run CITW for Comms.

Boss is unkillable demi-godess that might as well pop open the DDO store and bookmark the SP pot page for you. And get this: you beat on her belly button. because you know she couldn't back up three feet or simply snuff everyone out of existence on a whim.

Long and unskipable NPC dialog at the end with cringe worthy "Day-looooge"...

Honestly the points brought up re titan were very minor nit picks and i was floored to hear two people call it the worst designed raid. I can only guess that time and the almost complete absence of CITW LFM's has put a soft filter on this dog.

FranOhmsford

08-31-2015, 08:45 PM

I agree with Patrick about Epic XP.

Current amounts required are:

21 - 300k
22 - 450k
23 - 600k
24 - 750k
25 - 900k
26 - 1,050,000
27 - 1,200,000
28 - 1,350,000
Total - 6,600,000

Change that to:

21 - 500k
22 - 500k
23 - 750k
24 - 750k
25 - 750k
26 - 750k
27 - 1,000,000
28 - 1,000,000
29 - 1,000,000
30 - 1,000,000
Total - 8,000,000

And allow Epic/Iconic TRs at Lvl 28. {6,000,000 XP}

End-Game Content should NOT be enterable by anyone under Lvl 28!

FranOhmsford

08-31-2015, 08:48 PM

As for a D&D Movie - Adapt Threnal!

Sean Pertwee beats Sean Bean for dying in Movies!

And actually - If they get Sean Pertwee or even Sean Bean the character should absolutely NOT die! Twist!

Casting:

Rogue - Sean Pertwee
Cleric - Felicia Day
Wizard - Matt Smith
Ranger - Gerard Butler
Barbarian - Vin Diesel
Bard - Ice Cube
Warlock - Will Wheaton {Must Die!}

Chai

08-31-2015, 09:50 PM

The problem I see though is that you filled the panel with players known as the best of the best - Powergamers all!

Players who have no idea of just how many people have problems even in Heroic Elites {Never mind Epics}.
Players who can solo EEs in a 6 man group - Of course they don't have party wipes!
Players who don't understand that it's a bad idea to segregate players {DDO simply doesn't have a large enough population to do so!} and Elite is the Default BECAUSE you HAVE to be able to play Elite just to get a group!

Not really - some of us have been involved and active in teaching channels. If you are in either of the two teaching channels on sarlona over the years its possible we helped you learn what you know of the game.

Hafeal

08-31-2015, 10:08 PM

thanks for the critique, it's something I'm aware of but is challenging for me specifically. I have a long playing experience so it is sometimes difficult to wrap my head around that perspective. There are a couple guests that are more new player friendly minded than I - and I confess I have voiced my own approach, gotten feedback, and changed my approach.

what would be greatly beneficial to me as I prepare for the cast are specific topics you think we should cover. I have a list, but it is dwindling and it is in large part a list that I created. It's not easy coming up with a topic every week and finding a set of guests that are really in their forte to talk about it. (Sometimes I've had guests that were "off topic" where their knowledge is concerned and its showed in the end result and feedback). This is something I ask for every week because I want to be covering topics the listeners want to hear, but I rarely if ever get feedback on this.

I also think you will find this week's episode to your liking

I am looking forward to the episode. I appreciate that topics are tough; you have been doing such a good job, I have not thought you needed much help but I will see what I can come up with on a quick basis here:

1) A "Back to Basics" series (perhaps 1 a month) on topics like this for example:

a) 1 episode for Feats and guidelines for taking at which levels;
b) 1 episode for Enhancements, perhaps with a short history of their evolution;
c) 1 episode for spells and spells only - spell schools, descriptions, effectiveness, meta magics, good spells, bad spells, why;
d) 1 episode dedicated to Races and Classes.

While *I know* much of this can be found on the Wiki, an episode is nice for a a compilation and for listening rather than active searching. In addition, you can then get the opinions of some great vet players who can add in "what works and what doesn't" sort of viewpoints.

2) An episode dedicated to the lore of Eberron and FR; a recapping of the story lines and how they string all of DDO together;

3) A debate over the the best explorer areas and how they can be made even better;

4) An interview series with some of the forum personalities who have not regularly appeared on the show - anything from a guest appearance co-host to a Budweiser hot seat style 3 question set;

5) Ditto 4 for more devs;

6) A recap of the 2014 DDO PC and see what their thoughts are in reflection;

7) A current round table of the 2015 PC for a peek as to the year and its progress.

Anyway, I'll see if I can think of some more. :D

fangblackhawk

08-31-2015, 10:15 PM

They DIDN'T nerf Champions!

They FIXED them!

They were BROKEN!

They were appearing far more often than the Devs INTENDED and STATED that they should!

I even stated at the time and have continued to state that Champions weren't a bad idea it was simply a problem of implementation!

I do feel that there should be a small chance of Champions on Normal so that:
1) The gap between Normal and Hard isn't so wide!
and
2) Newbies get a chance to see what they're going to be up against in hard/elite BEFORE entering those difficulties! {You can't learn how to deal with something in a lesser difficulty if it doesn't appear in said lesser difficulty! - This is what makes Elite Small Problem such an extreme challenge!}.

i totaly agree with this

would just add i still think there should be something more to identify ther is a champ coming at you..... like "Mortal Kombat" " popping up on the screen when they activate in dm text and they should just simply glow not have floaty crowns that are easaly missed in mass mobbs.....

Hafeal

08-31-2015, 10:29 PM

*snip*

I won't argue your points on how bad CiTiW is, but it is not the worst.

The worst raid was never even mentioned - Heroic Abbott.

A raid, that for almost 3 years after its debut, could not even be run. And when it could be run, had one major problem after another. For the "challenge" crowd, I believe it holds the raid record for a run not being successfully completed for almost, if not, a year or more.

A raid that, by far, had the most idiotic and mind-numbing flagging sequence such that 90%+ of the player base did not run it. Random sigil pieces? Seriously!?! For 4 quests, that at their debut and long after were not soloable for 99% of the player base; oh, and those quests?

- Ghosts of Perdition had the timing of killing 2 brothers (very difficult for many for a long time) and probably the hardest optional in the game (killing all mobs at each beholder level), and, oh, a nasty named Boss beholder - at a time when beholders were feared;

- A quest full of golems when "smiters" were prized sought after weapons; and an optional that is probably second to Ghosts at level;

- Inferno, which a good chunk of the payer hates due to the 'flipping' sides mechanic

- [edit] I'll throw in Vol - the quells, when the quest was new, could be devastating on Elite. However, the quest was the easiest of the 4, especially on Normal, so it gets a "pass".

Oh, and hey, let's run the same pre-raid quest (Litany) 4 different ways as well. Awesome. I like black dragons and all - but next time - give me a chance to beat his a**. Add in the auto fail if you answer the questions wrong, lol.

In the end, the raid itself became the representative of content run by elite for elites only - and even they complained about it, constantly. God, the forum ranting still reverberates in my head. From drop rates to quest mechanics that *never* worked right - remember that disjunction problem killing people's gear? Oooh, that was great. Until Monty Haul allowed the players to beat the raid more often than not through shear power, the raid was THE toughest raid in the game. And oh, no one ran it - for all those on the game needs more "challenge" bandwagon. Remember the raid completion event across servers? What 1 raid had to have completions cut? Yeah, you guessed it - Heroic Abbott. Because it sucks. It still does too, even though it is easier to flag now.

A complete and utter waste.

Whew. That felt good.

:D

FranOhmsford

08-31-2015, 11:10 PM

Until Monty Haul allowed the players to beat the raid more often than not through shear power, the raid was THE toughest raid in the game.

Even at 20 cap {pre LoB definitely, post LoB probably} Elite Abbot simply wasn't run!

Hard was run once in a Blue Moon!

Once we got Multiple ED capped Lvl 25s however it became the standard to run Abbot on Elite but even in the early days of 21-25 Abbots were rare!

I don't think it was Monty Haul that made Abbot "easy" - It was simply that players who'd get ZERO XP from it due to being overlevelled were now able to enter!

It's like if a Lvl 13 character runs Proof is in the Poison - It has nothing to do with gear {Monty Haul} and everything to do with level!

And notice how Mark of Death didn't have the puzzle rooms? OR the Sigil requirement? OR run Litany 4 times {heck they didn't even bother to Epic Litany!}? Yet for some unknown reason the Heroic Raid still has every one!

Hafeal

08-31-2015, 11:19 PM

Even at 20 cap {pre LoB definitely, post LoB probably} Elite Abbot simply wasn't run!

Hard was run once in a Blue Moon!

Once we got Multiple ED capped Lvl 25s however it became the standard to run Abbot on Elite but even in the early days of 21-25 Abbots were rare!

I don't think it was Monty Haul that made Abbot "easy" - It was simply that players who'd get ZERO XP from it due to being overlevelled were now able to enter!

It's like if a Lvl 13 character runs Proof is in the Poison - It has nothing to do with gear {Monty Haul} and everything to do with level!

And notice how Mark of Death didn't have the puzzle rooms? OR the Sigil requirement? OR run Litany 4 times {heck they didn't even bother to Epic Litany!}? Yet for some unknown reason the Heroic Raid still has every one!

I was throwing the huge over-level and accompanying gear into my definition of Monty Haul - thus the over-powering the quest. But, yes, I get your drift.

Did I mention we still need RANDOM sigil pieces each new TR? lol. Geez, what a terrible flagging mechanic. Chapter 1 in the Book, How Not to get Gamers to Run Your Content.

FranOhmsford

08-31-2015, 11:33 PM

I was throwing the huge over-level and accompanying gear into my definition of Monty Haul - thus the over-powering the quest. But, yes, I get your drift.

Monty Haul is a term that is all about GEAR!

the term you're looking for is Power-Levelling!

Did I mention we still need RANDOM sigil pieces each new TR? lol. Geez, what a terrible flagging mechanic. Chapter 1 in the Book, How Not to get Gamers to Run Your Content.

No you didn't - Which is why I mentioned it!

And yes it's ludicrous that the Sigil doesn't stay full forever once you've filled it {they fixed the Titan flag item!}.

pjstechie

09-01-2015, 12:00 AM

The problem I see though is that you filled the panel with players known as the best of the best - Powergamers all!

I filled the panel with people I knew were passionate about the topics we were discussing. We had been trying to get Samius on a debate show for a while, he kind of also called Chai out previously, and I invited Axel onto the show because of his video blog (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd8L2y9m7q8NOYTOTbzeVnw). I did not actively look for the "best of the best" but rather folks who were already talking about these topics.

I would be happy to have newer players on the show, but I dont as a rule go out blindly inviting folks. And I simply don't run into many of those folks in my normal course of gaming. I also dont realistically have any more time I can give to the show. I constantly put out an open invitation to be a part of the show but very very few engage in that manner. I get maybe 1 or 2 comments a week out of hundreds of views. Unless a dev comments...

Players who have no idea of just how many people have problems even in Heroic Elites {Never mind Epics}.
Players who can solo EEs in a 6 man group - Of course they don't have party wipes!
Players who don't understand that it's a bad idea to segregate players {DDO simply doesn't have a large enough population to do so!} and Elite is the Default BECAUSE you HAVE to be able to play Elite just to get a group!

There are plenty of players in DDO who people on these forums completely dismiss as not existing!

I feel pretty confident that none of these apply to me.

pjstechie

09-01-2015, 12:08 AM

I too had a problem with the worst designed raid segment... touted as "worst ever" is one of the most intricately and interestingly designed raids Titan... Reasons cited were few and superficial. *snip*

I was surprised no one brought up CitW actually, I think many of the points you made are very strong reasons for that arguement.

I response to some of your points re: Titan though - I know I mentioned an appreciation for the preraid, but thats not what I would consider part of the actual raid we were arguing for. We brought it up, but its not an integral part of my concerns with the raid design itself.

My issue with Titan is the margin for error. If you dont hit with 6 of 8 pillars you fail. In CitW, even if Ana gets pummeled, you wipe, you dont fail. You can even leave and come back in!

also, CitW gets a little better for me because it feels more quest like - you go somewhere other than the room you start in. Thats how I chose Titan (CitW would have been my second choice)

pjstechie

09-01-2015, 12:24 AM

I am looking forward to the episode. I appreciate that topics are tough; you have been doing such a good job, I have not thought you needed much help but I will see what I can come up with on a quick basis here:

1) A "Back to Basics" series (perhaps 1 a month) on topics like this for example:

a) 1 episode for Feats and guidelines for taking at which levels;
b) 1 episode for Enhancements #303, perhaps with a short history of their evolution;
c) 1 episode for spells and spells only - spell schools, descriptions, effectiveness, meta magics, good spells, bad spells, why;
d) 1 episode dedicated to Races #362and Classes.

I try to maintain a 3 week cycle: Topic, Build, Debate. Ive been working my way through different classes, build archetypes, and more recently, gear slots. I've mostly been taking a whole episode for each for more depth. Is there something missing from them?

2) An episode dedicated to the lore of Eberron and FR; a recapping of the story lines and how they string all of DDO together; been on the list, but honestly not high on my own interests and I keep pushing it off for other things more "often" requested

3) A debate over the the best explorer areas and how they can be made even better; good topic

4) An interview series with some of the forum personalities who have not regularly appeared on the show - anything from a guest appearance co-host to a Budweiser hot seat style 3 question set; know anyone? becuase i dont have the time to blindly search. have them email ddocast@gmail.com!

5) Ditto 4 for more devs; Its been a while, but I have been poking Jerry to talk with the devs some more, but unless its a preview (and we couldnt make the last one work schedule wise) they do it on their own time for which i am extremely thankful

6) A recap of the 2014 DDO PC and see what their thoughts are in reflection; #351

7) A current round table of the 2015 PC for a peek as to the year and its progress.its on my list

Anyway, I'll see if I can think of some more. :D

thanks for the specific ideas, they are much more helpful than the generic "more new player topics"

Looking at my list of shows, there have been several that are (i thought) targeting newer/less experienced/not power gamer players. Is there something you find lacking within those discussions?

ex:
307 - new player tips
320 - TR tips
313 - playing solo
330 - maximizing premium/F2P
332 - elevating your game play
337, 338, 340 - PUGs
342 - staying alive
353 - new player integration
359 - zerging
372 - hotbars

pjstechie

09-01-2015, 12:27 AM

I won't argue your points on how bad CiTiW is, but it is not the worst.

The worst raid was never even mentioned - Heroic Abbott.

I also considered this, but I felt the design wasnt bad, just the implementation - maybe a nuanced thing, but I thought the puzzles (at least once they worked) were fun and interesting and my only complaint was their margin for error

I think its bad raid design when failure is achieved through a single misstep as opposed to a series of poor choices - this is something that the design of DoJ is really good at in that you essentially have to make a series of poor choices to fail (assuming no lag)

Gratch

09-01-2015, 12:30 AM

CITW Complaints

I hear a lot of "flagging good xp quests takes time and people get lost a lot", "I don't run with a group that knows how to ignore some groups of mobs", "I don't understand how to use the placed for your benefit terrain to avoid mana drain rays", "13 top of the game weapon types isn't enough weapon types for me" and "the devs gave me an unkillable but movable sp shrine and I resent them for it". Yes, you do lose two chests if you let Anna get too hurt... but that's yet another learning part of the raid.

I melee'd and healed and shiradi'ed this raid >20 times across many characters as it was the final raid of DDO for a number of updates. The quest length is long, but got faster as you learned what parts of the raid to avoid and people equipped themselves to deal with certain DR's, learned the tells of spider legs about to fling you, learned how not to be the dork who killed the portal keeper before it was time. I appreciate the design that went into making a learning/grouping raid. I appreciate having one raid against a well-known FR goddess that was the end of a brand new expansion of quests. I see how the devs slightly painted themselves into an RPG story hole of having the goddess of Magic's containment avatar near you so Lolth didn't just plink the party into oblivion. And I frickin' like the Deluge. The same way I like (or have learned to like) Mr Gygax' voiceover in Deleras and the fact that there's a MotherF'in Fire Reaver in the Libary according to Mr. Arneson. And the rate of loot is a heck of a lot faster than an Epic Spell Storing Ring.

DDO... needs more learning required and deluges. Less P2W and insta-gratification.

FranOhmsford

09-01-2015, 03:13 AM

I feel pretty confident that none of these apply to me.

They actually weren't aimed at you!

It would be a bit dumb to complain about the host! However...As I feel you were easily the least "Elite" Player on the panel and you're pretty good at this game yourself the panel makeup did seem unduly biased towards the Elite Player.

Looking at my list of shows, there have been several that are (i thought) targeting newer/less experienced/not power gamer players. Is there something you find lacking within those discussions?

ex:
307 - new player tips
320 - TR tips
313 - playing solo
330 - maximizing premium/F2P
332 - elevating your game play
337, 338, 340 - PUGs
342 - staying alive
353 - new player integration
359 - zerging
372 - hotbars

For most of these it's not the topic itself it's who's on the panel that matters.

For some it's a case of things that new players always need to know but how many "new" players even saw the episode? {New Player Tips for instance}.

The ones I can definitely say are "Good topics" are:
New Player Integration - Especially if aimed at getting vets to be more understanding towards newer players.
Maximimising Premium/F2P - Especially if aimed at the Devs.
Staying Alive - A lot less Elitist a title than the previous "Elevating your game play".

kmoustakas

09-01-2015, 05:31 AM

At the risk of answering before hearing the podcast... abbot is by far not the worst raid of the game. It is certainly the most polarising raid because people either hate it or love it.

Exact same with flagging mechanic AND the litany of the dead. There's a whole bunch of people that'll tell you litany is the best heroic xp/min quest and a big number of the population has full sigils for lives to come. As with random things, there's people who spend eons and can't get themselves flagged, I'll concede the point.

Sidenote: WHERE IS MY EPIC LITANY OF THE DEAD WITH BLACK DRAGON BOSS AT THE END AND ALL THE HEROIC ITEMS THAT ARE MISSING FROM THE EPIC VERSION!

Hafeal

09-01-2015, 08:48 AM

Monty Haul is a term that is all about GEAR!

the term you're looking for is Power-Levelling!

No you didn't - Which is why I mentioned it!

And yes it's ludicrous that the Sigil doesn't stay full forever once you've filled it {they fixed the Titan flag item!}.

Yes, yes, I was echoing your thought. Yes, power-levelling is exactly what I was thinking of.

I also considered this, but I felt the design wasnt bad, just the implementation - maybe a nuanced thing, but I thought the puzzles (at least once they worked) were fun and interesting and my only complaint was their margin for error

I think its bad raid design when failure is achieved through a single misstep as opposed to a series of poor choices - this is something that the design of DoJ is really good at in that you essentially have to make a series of poor choices to fail (assuming no lag)

I just think it is funny - I rarely had Titan fail when it was run. I saw more failure in the missteps of Abbott between goggles, missed swims or an inability to get meteors down correctly; and when it was done, often it was through cheesy tactics - hanging off the meteor ledge or rezzing through the death water, for example.

Both raids generally succeeded because a select, small group of people could get it done and, in my experience, refused to allow or teach others to do it. Abbott, particularly and especially concerning goggles. The key difference is that Abbott gave more people things to do in the raid for a longer period of time - part of which is simply because of the mechanic of having to break the party up at the beginning of the quest; otherwise you wouldn't need that many people in there either.

When Titan was new, classes had more defined class roles and little power-levelling and gear. The cap was level 10. At the time, Module 2 (2006), Titan was at least a challenge and completeable. Has it aged well? NO, but what content from that time has? Abbott came out in 2007 with a level cap of 14 and was a mess from the start.

There's a whole bunch of people that'll tell you litany is the best heroic xp/min quest and a big number of the population has full sigils for lives to come. As with random things, there's people who spend eons and can't get themselves flagged, I'll concede the point.

It is good xp. They gave it good xp like most other pre-raids, like Von 5. Yet, I very rarely see it in lfms. It is not on the normal xp runs (Von 3, Spies, Mirror, 3BC). A big reason for that, imo, is that I do not believe a "big number" of players are flagged or want to be bothered trying to flag. Some? Sure. Big number? Me no thinka so. ;)

axel15810

09-01-2015, 08:59 AM

If I have *one* constructive criticism - of this podcast particularly, I perceive a lack of insight for the truly casual player and little more than lip service for new players. The guests - while entertaining and very insightful, are often talking on points that casual players may be a long way from enjoying. I think a casual perspective would be helpful to round out the conversations.

:cool:

That's fair criticism. This panel was filled with experienced players but I know on DDOcast that isn't always the case. It just happened to be the case this time. Definitely check out some older episodes, I know Patrick has had a lot of discussions more geared toward and including newer players.

The problem I see though is that you filled the panel with players known as the best of the best - Powergamers all!

Players who have no idea of just how many people have problems even in Heroic Elites {Never mind Epics}.
Players who can solo EEs in a 6 man group - Of course they don't have party wipes!
Players who don't understand that it's a bad idea to segregate players {DDO simply doesn't have a large enough population to do so!} and Elite is the Default BECAUSE you HAVE to be able to play Elite just to get a group!

I personally don't consider myself a powergamer, I have always run middle of the road builds - normally a battle cleric of some kind. I don't reincarnate very often. I do solo EEs from time to time and but spend most of my time pugging. So I suppose I could fit the powergamer mold depending on what someone would consider a powergamer. But I was a new player once and have not forgotten what it's like, so I always keep them in mind regardless.

Urjak

09-01-2015, 10:02 AM

I do feel that there should be a small chance of Champions on Normal so that:
1) The gap between Normal and Hard isn't so wide!

I rarely post anymore on these forums (noone reads the posts anyways) - but this made me go like ***???

I mean there is a huge gap between hard and elite (especially on epic that gap is huge) - but between normal and hard??? They feel like the exact same thing, except that on hard some mobs have a fancy crown above their head (not that they would be tougher because of it - they only get the hard buffs - not the elite ones). So: No to champions on normal - I mean the normal champion buffs would need to be even weaker than the ones champions on hard get - and those are already barely noticeable.

Just my opinion, I know - but just NO

IF you want to tweak anything, than make hard harder so that we actually get a difficulty that is harder than sleepwalking but not as tough as elite (talking especially with non-optimal builds for soloists in mind)

--------------------------------------------------------

Finally considering REAPER difficulty - I think you all got that completely wrong - we don't need a difficulty that is "just a bit harder than elite" - with or without rewards - nope.
We need a REAPER difficulty that replaces the old epic difficulty => only runable by capped or nearly capped toons, vastly harder than EE, CR 35, with all new epic gear (probably with a system similar to shard/seal/scroll) and finally only repeatable once a day (no bypass timers!!!!) => THAT's what would help revive the endgame scene - without that I don't really see a future for DDO - just my opinion though

IronClan

09-01-2015, 12:43 PM

On Abbot, I don't consider most of those complaints to be DESIGN and they were very specific about design. Those were unintentional, bugs or poor execution. If Bugs enter into then CITW has more than a few of those I could list

Abbot again is one of the best raids in the game design wise, intricate infinitely runnable and still fail-able because of the randomization... Even now that ED's and uber meta gaming have made some of the puzzles easier/trivial.

The least meta gamable raid (or quest) in the entire game. Tiles no matter what you did* took player skill and not meta gaming (again until uber meta gaming figured out the trick to getting both pairs of goggles). Ice before dance of the water strider was a real test of player skill, and asteroids while trivial for 2 to 4 Mouselooker FPS players was almost always a challenge because of all the keyboard turners and non mouselookers in DDO.

CITW's faults are predominantly design related... Even something that is touted as a "plus" the ability to re-enter the raid was poor design... it allowed cheezing in multiple ways that no other raid in the game allows, it was inconsistent with the design of almost every raid, and in the end you could run the quest with 1 toon and open the end chests with a toon that didn't participate. Not sure if this was Bug or by design, so maybe it's not germane :)

Titans slim failure conditions added challenge to an end fight that in 99% of all the other raids is usually a DONE DEAL. This is not a design failure IMO. Sure maybe they could have made it less punishing and given us 10 Pillars or only required 5 of 8 to hit in the end it provided excitement and tension in a game that is almost entirely lacking intensity, tension, excitement or suspense...

I admit fully that my tastes run to difficult cooperative skill required coordinated challenges, I can't see how needing to make 6 out of 8 is a design failure... significantly more chances than that and you're just going through the motions every time with little to no real tension or chance to fail.

*I don't want to hear about Vanshillar figuring out a nigh on impossible for most people to pull off "60% of the time it works every time" Wings/Cannith Boots/Wings pixel perfect precision meta gaming tactic for tiles... in most of DDO's content once someone knows how to do it, the success rate of that raid nears 100%...

Abbot can still be failed with 28's with full ED's, with NO bug or lag factors can't say that about much of anything else in DDO IMO. That suggests that it's design is rather brilliant actually.

Vargouille

09-01-2015, 12:49 PM

I rarely post anymore on these forums (noone reads the posts anyways)

You might be surprised!

red_cardinal_

09-01-2015, 01:09 PM

You might be surprised!

Your development team cant comprehend how much work needs to be done for this game to truly be a quality service. Now that Turbine is a part of WB, you should really get more capital and produce QUALITY work because you do have the creativity, you just lack funds and time.

Gratch

09-01-2015, 02:00 PM

Your development team cant comprehend how much work needs to be done for this game to truly be a quality service. Now that Turbine is a part of WB, you should really get more capital and produce QUALITY work because you do have the creativity, you just lack funds and time.

Turbine has been part of WB for a while. So far WB's track record was to up the staff at the start, create a director of the games conga line (including through LotrO), layoffs, layoffs, close A.C. development and forced Turbine to do a DC MOBA whose failure has been a large loss of talent. But don't worry, Turbine's working on Batman mobile games now. Hopefully they were able to transfer a lot of their MOBA assets into those new projects.

Not sure why the suits in charge of WB didn't commission Turbine to upgrade their MMO engine (some of which upgrades DDO & LotRO might get) and make a Harry Potter Experience MMO with a wizard customization store using the WB games license. Maybe J.K. objected. Shrug.

Hafeal

09-01-2015, 02:37 PM

On Abbot, I don't consider most of those complaints to be DESIGN and they were very specific about design. Those were unintentional, bugs or poor execution. If Bugs enter into then CITW has more than a few of those I could list

Abbot again is one of the best raids in the game design wise, intricate infinitely runnable and still fail-able because of the randomization... Even now that ED's and uber meta gaming have made some of the puzzles easier/trivial.

The least meta gamable raid (or quest) in the entire game. Tiles no matter what you did* took player skill and not meta gaming (again until uber meta gaming figured out the trick to getting both pairs of goggles). Ice before dance of the water strider was a real test of player skill, and asteroids while trivial for 2 to 4 Mouselooker FPS players was almost always a challenge because of all the keyboard turners and non mouselookers in DDO.

I admit fully that my tastes run to difficult cooperative skill required coordinated challenges, I can't see how needing to make 6 out of 8 is a design failure... significantly more chances than that and you're just going through the motions every time with little to no real tension or chance to fail.

*I don't want to hear about Vanshillar figuring out a nigh on impossible for most people to pull off "60% of the time it works every time" Wings/Cannith Boots/Wings pixel perfect precision meta gaming tactic for tiles... in most of DDO's content once someone knows how to do it, the success rate of that raid nears 100%...

Abbot can still be failed with 28's with full ED's, with NO bug or lag factors can't say that about much of anything else in DDO IMO. That suggests that it's design is rather brilliant actually.

Every raid can be failed by a 28s in full EDs. Each and every one. Being 28 and in full ED just gives you huge room for margin of error. Now how likely is it? Not likely.

Heroic Abbott has a Titan pre-raid element (splitting the party), which gives something for more people to do - but - no option for recovery if 1 of 3 fails. *shrug* Same with Titan. Pillars are a fail condition. Auto fail conditions suck. That is what makes Shroud so great - do the puzzles or not, you can still get through.

Now. would it be nice if EVERY raid had better design to use 12 party members? Absolutely. It would be nice, in an upgrade of that content for Abbott or Titan, or LoB for that matter, if things likes pillar had a different mechanism to be brought down - climb to the top, hit an ability rune, solve a puzzle, etc. Put a timing mechanism on it. Slap each party to the top of a pillar to do something to bring it down bring it down. Make everyone in VoD stand on a special rune - and scale it for summons and pets. Point being - I think the lack of creativity - or is it unwillingness? - to engage a full party is a big problem in raid design especially. While I do not like fail conditions, I have NO problem requiring 12 people to get something done. 12. Not 10, not 6, not 1. Make people put the lfm up for the raid. It is hard. It is supposed to have coordination. I am with you there.

The boss fight for Lolth and Abbott? Not much different. Lolth is a god, Abbott a god wanna be. Would it be nice to hit more than Lolth's belly button? Absolutely. Why are we not climbing up her and getting thrown off? I would also like the Abbott to move like the LoB. Hey A, stand still. Ok, wait for the fireball express to go away. Back at ya.

So, to me, I look at all the elements that lead up to the Raid as well as the raid itself. Thus, Heroic Abbott is still at the bottom of my list.

Lauf

09-01-2015, 03:05 PM

You might be surprised!

well if you're reading, chrono was (and is) one of your best designed raids, especially bloodplate.

more of the same please.

pjstechie

09-01-2015, 03:20 PM

Every raid can be failed by a 28s in full EDs. Each and every one. Being 28 and in full ED just gives you huge room for margin of error. Now how likely is it? Not likely.

Heroic Abbott has a Titan pre-raid element (splitting the party), which gives something for more people to do - but - no option for recovery if 1 of 3 fails. *shrug* Same with Titan. Pillars are a fail condition. Auto fail conditions suck. That is what makes Shroud so great - do the puzzles or not, you can still get through.

FYI, failing a puzzle in Abbott is not a raid fail. If you go back to the main platform and beat him down he will throw the doors back up if you haven't completed all 3 puzzles. It's just that most groups choose to start over.

Hafeal

09-01-2015, 05:32 PM

FYI, failing a puzzle in Abbott is not a raid fail. If you go back to the main platform and beat him down he will throw the doors back up if you haven't completed all 3 puzzles. It's just that most groups choose to start over.

*sheepish grin* Uh, yeah, sorry about that. Abbott rant has got me frothing apparently.

*cough* alrighty, back to our regularly scheduled programming ...

Hafeal

09-01-2015, 05:37 PM

Is there something you find lacking within those discussions?

ex:
307 - new player tips
320 - TR tips
313 - playing solo
330 - maximizing premium/F2P
332 - elevating your game play
337, 338, 340 - PUGs
342 - staying alive
353 - new player integration
359 - zerging
372 - hotbars

And btw, I have not ignored your question. I will need to go back and listen, again. I thought the episodes were good. Some could bear repeating. Sometimes I wish guests could have been swapped. But I am generally walking my dogs when I listen, so, I don't make notes. I will say there have been times where I learned something new or "re-learned" something I had forgotten (not having run a certain class for a long time, for example).

I will try to be more concrete with some examples after some reflection.

FranOhmsford

09-01-2015, 06:51 PM

I rarely post anymore on these forums (noone reads the posts anyways) - but this made me go like ***???

I mean there is a huge gap between hard and elite (especially on epic that gap is huge) - but between normal and hard??? They feel like the exact same thing, except that on hard some mobs have a fancy crown above their head (not that they would be tougher because of it - they only get the hard buffs - not the elite ones). So: No to champions on normal - I mean the normal champion buffs would need to be even weaker than the ones champions on hard get - and those are already barely noticeable.

Just my opinion, I know - but just NO

IF you want to tweak anything, than make hard harder so that we actually get a difficulty that is harder than sleepwalking but not as tough as elite (talking especially with non-optimal builds for soloists in mind)

Look...I rarely run anything less than Elite in Heroics - I can cope with Elite Solo so Hard and Normal are cake walks for me in low end Heroics {not so much once past Lvl 15 where I'm not quite Elite Solo capable yet and certainly not in Epics where I run almost entirely EN!}

For someone who's capable of running EEs low end Heroic and even mid to high Heroic Normal and Hard will feel very similar - Both ridiculously easy!

HOWEVER: For a Newbie the gap between the two has widened immensely thanks to Champions!
The gap between Hard and Elite {Which has always been a chasm...So much so that a player can find Hard easy while not being capable in Elites} has barely widened at all!

I'm not saying to fill Normal with Champions but maybe the odd one every two quests so the Newbie gets the chance to figure them out on a lesser difficulty?

Finally considering REAPER difficulty - I think you all got that completely wrong - we don't need a difficulty that is "just a bit harder than elite" - with or without rewards - nope.
We need a REAPER difficulty that replaces the old epic difficulty => only runable by capped or nearly capped toons, vastly harder than EE, CR 35, with all new epic gear (probably with a system similar to shard/seal/scroll) and finally only repeatable once a day (no bypass timers!!!!) => THAT's what would help revive the endgame scene - without that I don't really see a future for DDO - just my opinion though

The problem is that this doesn't seem to be what the Devs have got in mind for Reaper - It seems Reaper is going to be simply a difficulty above Elite for ALL quests in game rather than a specifically End-Game difficulty.

In fact I've stated multiple times that this game needs a "Mythic" End-Game difficulty starting at Base Level 35 with ONLY capped toons allowed to enter {OK I'll drop that requirement to Lvl 28}.

However - Why can't we have BOTH?
Reaper for Completionists and Multi-TRs who want to run Heroics and not be bored.
AND
Mythic - True End-Game similar to pre-MotU Epics for those who don't want to just keep TRing.

IronClan

09-01-2015, 10:46 PM

Every raid can be failed by a 28s in full EDs. Each and every one. Being 28 and in full ED just gives you huge room for margin of error. Now how likely is it? Not likely.

We're talking about EE MoD where we didn't bring enough DPS and CC (AKA we didn't make sure the math worked) versus a level 17 Raid where everyone in it has done Abbot many times, and only skill and communication and reactions in FRONT OF THE SCREEN matter, NOT math.

Because:

tiles can't be over powered by gear and levels (math)
asteroids requires actual player skill and diligence and can't be over powered
The wander got encased: team work and coordinating someone as backup, and making sure those with boulders stopped DPS'ing to break encasement
multiple inferno's in a row, testing players ability to get to the ice island (or more lately the Abbots foot in time, and not slide off. Which is a relative late comer of a meta tactic that not everyone knows) or very well timed remove curse pot followed by self healing. These are all about player skill and not math problems that can be meta gamed/geared past and leveled past to triviality.

People might fail a EE MoD or DoJ at 28, because of math... player skill is only a minor factor. MoD has way too many safe spots (compass points of the Dais where Inferno doesn't quite reach) so that inferno is no longer the fear and excitement inducing factor that is was in heroic Abbot, and no one even bothers wanding an ice island. And the Tells (bombardment warnings whatever you want to call them) at the end fight of DoJ are largely simple jump to one side (Worm breath) reactions or "get to the safe spots" (comet fall nuke which seems to kill the entire room no matter where you go unless it's one of the safe terrain locations in the lava or under the overhang).

Abbot with some added LOB mechanics? LOB is just a melee version of Abbot, but none the less despite not having anywhere near the skilled puzzle challenges that was a fun and well designed beat down. So add LOB melee to Abbot's Inferno, encasement and dis-junction? Well that would have been devilish for EPic Abbot, sadly we got a dumbed down arena beat down that is 100% beatable through meta gaming and bringing enough math. MoD is more beatable through meta tactics than the heroic level 17 precursor... sad. When I say 28 can fail it, I mean they can fail it because of skill, not because they didn't bring enough math.

IronClan

09-01-2015, 10:52 PM

However - Why can't we have BOTH?
Reaper for Completionists and Multi-TRs who want to run Heroics and not be bored.
AND
Mythic - True End-Game similar to pre-MotU Epics for those who don't want to just keep TRing.

I think they should just do mythic (Endgame level 30 version of Old "epic") and bite the bullet and make EE harder (use Champ's 1.0). make Heroic ELite a LITTLE harder and take champs out of Heroic Hard and give the same BB bonus for a heroic hard streak as a heroic elite streak. (yes I know this seems painfully pandering, but it's a compromise, and truth is: heroic hard and heroic elite are both trivial right now even if one is more trivial than the other does it really matter?)

Compromise.

The more I think about Reaper the worse an idea it seems to be to further divide a small player base into a 5th setting...

In fact when I contemplate this it increasingly sounds more and more like a straw that broke the camels back scenario.

pjstechie

09-02-2015, 12:19 AM

We're talking about EE MoD where we didn't bring enough DPS and CC (AKA we didn't make sure the math worked) versus a level 17 Raid where everyone in it has done Abbot many times, and only skill and communication and reactions in FRONT OF THE SCREEN matter, NOT math.

Because:

tiles can't be over powered by gear and levels (math)
asteroids requires actual player skill and diligence and can't be over powered
The wander got encased: team work and coordinating someone as backup, and making sure those with boulders stopped DPS'ing to break encasement
multiple inferno's in a row, testing players ability to get to the ice island (or more lately the Abbots foot in time, and not slide off. Which is a relative late comer of a meta tactic that not everyone knows) or very well timed remove curse pot followed by self healing. These are all about player skill and not math problems that can be meta gamed/geared past and leveled past to triviality.

For me this hits the nail on the head. This is good raid design. Tactics, player skill, coordination. These are encouraged by good raid design and a well designed raid will still challenge those even in an over level group.

My only complaint with the abbot puzzles is how quickly the ice water kills you and that if you miss a tile you die - I always wanted a possibility of surviving falling and getting a chance to try again. I like margin of error in my raids. Raids should fail because you got overrun, failed to adjust and such things. Penalties for a misstep should be death not start over. Start over should be the penalty for many missteps and miscues.

Speaking of which, part of the problem with the low margin for error with Titan is you would then need to run the preraid again...

IronClan

09-02-2015, 08:53 AM

For me this hits the nail on the head. This is good raid design. Tactics, player skill, coordination. These are encouraged by good raid design and a well designed raid will still challenge those even in an over level group.

My only complaint with the abbot puzzles is how quickly the ice water kills you and that if you miss a tile you die - I always wanted a possibility of surviving falling and getting a chance to try again. I like margin of error in my raids. Raids should fail because you got overrun, failed to adjust and such things. Penalties for a misstep should be death not start over. Start over should be the penalty for many missteps and miscues.

Speaking of which, part of the problem with the low margin for error with Titan is you would then need to run the preraid again...

I agree it sucks to have a binary condition cause re-running the pre-raid. Part of the problem there however is breaking a raid up into more "consumer friendly" chunks. SO we think of it as the "pre raid" and a chore. Imagine if they had made LOB and MA more lengthy by putting their particular part of the explorer area INTO the raids themselves... All of a sudden no ones b*tching about having to run through the explorer area any more because in their minds it's now actually part of the raid (do people complain about Fire and Ice in Tempest Spine? Nope it's part of the raid... the Dev team can't win in these scenarios... make the Raid longer and people complain, make it shorter and it becomes abusable (20 EN's a night) make the short end fight have a tight failure condition like Titan and suddenly "bah we have to do the chore of the pre-raid"... put them together and "bah this raid takes too long, I'm 40 and have a life this isn't WoW"... In other words they kinda can't win for losing some times. IMO those raids could and probably should be all one part, VON5-6 should be VON5, but are broken into pre raid and beat down due to the length not being very target demographic friendly (mostly IMO that is the reason).

But the other problem is that if you increase the margin with the mostly static "practice makes perfect" meta gaming vulnerable content you often make the difference between hard but doable, into: not hard and near 100% completion ratio as long as you have a couple people who know how.

The difference between Titan and Von5-6 for example... a party of 28's (without factoring bugs or cheesing with Ruin, which change and evolve over time) is that we are literally never any more going to fail a VON5 or 6... without outside factors like lag, never... I can't recall a single EE failure of VON6 post 25 cap in my 200+ runs for eSoS shard. YEARS ago, in 2010 and 11, sure. When the Cap was 20 and 25 sure we failed then, back then the damage was still high enough that dedicated healing was needed and somewhere along the line our self healing obviated that and completions became a 100% expectancy. On the other hand I have failed Titans in the last couple years, ignoring runs that were lost due to the Titan wrecking pillars on his own (something he's started doing a lot of recently).

Meta gaming is the worse enemy of replay-ability and also of challenge... and the least "practicable" raid in the game is Abbot to me that means it's one of the most cleverly designed.

In Titan the pillars are perhaps too tight a margin for error. I wont argue with that. I will say that just a little less tight and the likelihood of completions skyrockets into the land of (every other Raid in the game) almost complete certainty. If the group doesn't outright suck and has at least a couple people who know what to do. With the tight margin for error skill plays a bigger part, and yes dumb luck also can have a higher impact. But too many pillars just increases the small chance of failure into a "you have to really screw it up" chance of failure.

This reminds me of the "blind tiling" in MoD... the Developer thought players were going to follow the guy with the goggles so the phylactery beat downs would take much longer to start, BUT because the water is so survivable we messed all over his best laid plan, and we blind tile... The water in MoD gives too wide a margin for error and thus is it a abused as the exploitable meta tactic that reduces completion times dramatically.

Give Titan too many Pillars and we blind pillar (so to speak), at least until we start nearing only having 2 or 3 extra's we prep and and drop quickly with moderate effort to get things lined up, but maybe not the precise "sweat each one out" tension that we have when it's 8 pillars and 6 hits... Sooner or later we get good at "blind pillaring" and the margin for error being too wide makes a tense sweaty end fight into a formality to get through.

To me this is the main problem with DDO as a whole and raiding in particular... meta gaming, I can do an Abbot tonight with the thelanis late night Abbot gang and sure we might power through it because we all know ALL the tricks (including how to brute force ice, how to get both sets of goggles on one player, the safe spot on the abbot statues foot etc.) it took most of the games history to figure out these little tricks that turn a hard to meta tactic raid into a little more meta-able. We still might fail in tiles, then catch 2 or 3 well timed infernos in a row that no one was ready for and fail... failing a level 17 raid with 28's who do Abbot because we enjoy doing abbot suggests that this raid is very unique among DDO's raids... it's one of the only ones that remains challenging and is not a certain completion every time. And not because it's buggy, but because the mechanics of the raid are overcome with skill and coordination and not math and player fore knowledge of what is about to happen.

Anyway great discussion, I love this subject.