Temple of Elemental Evil -- is it working right?

[Riddle_of_Steel]

Hey everyone. First let me fend off the "strong's only" / "have you tried another difficulty crowd" by saying I am not complaining of what was a very hard run for us at all it was certainly a challenge and we pushed it as far as we could until we ran outta resources. This was the first time for both of us in there so we have nothing to compare it to other than other quests of the same level.

What I am wondering is if it's scaling properly on Heroic Elite. We were two manning with a Pally (8 - on his first life) and a Favoured Soul (9 - on her 5th life) and in TOEE pulling a full group of Mobs was an absolute nightmare and we were constantly having to pull a couple at a time or hide around a corner to force them to melee instead of fire bows at us. When we were being ranged even my tanked up pally was taking a crazy amount of DPS. Pull two groups at once or God forbid a full group with more than 1 champion and we were genuinely risking a wipe. We got about half way through level 1 before we felt we needed to recall and do something more productive with our time.

As a comparison we then ran an elite Tear (mobs were CR 12 and 13 same at TOEE) and it was a completely cake walk by comparison. A bit of a slog but given neither of us are new to the game and play very well together it was manageable and not once did I feel we were risking a wipe at all ever.

Is it intended that TOEE is this difficult? And if so why are their CR 12 mobs running around doing about x3 the DPS of CR 12 mobs in other level 7 quests? Has it always been this way?

And again for that special crowd out there, just to be perfectly clear, I am not asking for or looking for a nerf in difficulty. I am not whining about something being "too hard". I am wondering if something is broken.

Now if the answer is "yes" this is how it's always been and is WAI might I humbly suggest that the turbine team take tear and TOEE and compare their difficulty and set the difficulty for all Elite quests to about 80% of TOEE. that might go a long way towards making elite feel like it AND not have these absurdly huge difficulty spikes in quests of the same level on the same difficulty.

Thanks.

[The_Human_Cypher]

I think the answer is Yes, that TOEE on Heroic Elite is supposed to be very difficult. Attempting to 2 man an Elite TOEE is not a good idea. The bar was set high so that players would be encouraged to group and also to prevent players from quickly blowing through the new content on the highest difficulty and then getting bored with it. At least, that is what I would surmise.

[Kwyjibo]

My TR pal and I tried a Heroic Elite run. Multiple lives, twink gear, bla bla bla, don't remember which lives we were doing at the time, but yea, we got our butts handed to us. Shame the XP isn't better.

[Sebastrd]

ToEE was intended to be more difficult than normal.

[kmoustakas]

Remember when some quests who show you up with a box that said 'extreme challenge?' Well, when they first made those quests those were extreme. With the constant power creep they lost their luster. Right now, heroic toee at level is truly extreme. It is designed to be extremly hard to completionists with twink gear at level.

That is not to say that there aren't people that solo it for bravery routinely.

[Koshei]

I soloed it at level on heroic elite on my pure rogue last week. Never done it before only heard it was very hard and long. So I brought all kinds of resources (potion, scrolls, etc). Did everything in part 1, all the optionals, found all the will wheaton sound bites.

Very much enjoyed the quest and experience of it. Felt very silly that I brought all kinds of useless scrolls (hey how was i to know i would not need that merfolks blessing in there. Almost ran out of ship buffs in part 1 but i did double back a lot looking everywhere for the orbs and clearing all rooms.

Negatives: -realy- disliked the respawning mobs. I wanted to clear the quest and of cause its not possible. The respawns don't provide any extra difficulty they just waste time if you have to double back to see where that last sound orb you missed is. I could have opened up a wiki of cause but i didn't want to cheat first time through. Also XP per time invested is terrible. Very sad as it means i probably will never do it again at level, instead just farm the mushroom with a more powerful character if i ever need to. Why such poor xp for such a massive quest? It takes as much time as 10+ other quests of that level but gives a fraction of xp.

Part 2 was much worse. Sometime in the middle of doing the air node I got bored of it and so the moment the gate to the final boss was open I finished the quests instead of exploring other nodes. Very much disappointed in part 2 compared to part 1. Even the final boss fight was more fun in part 1.

As for difficulty: mobs are much stronger than other quests at that level. Its very doable even solo these days as characters a simply op if properly built. However it should be 9 or some such based on the mob difficulty.

To the devs who will never read this: please up the xp to where its remotely tempting to run this for leveling and stop mob respawns - clearing the quests if more fun than finding optimal route to never double back.

[Tscheuss]

You are not alone. From its introduction, ToEE has demanded respect... or souls.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

...What I am wondering is if it's scaling properly on Heroic Elite. ... Is it intended that TOEE is this difficult? ...


Remember when some quests who show you up with a box that said 'extreme challenge?' Well, when they first made those quests those were extreme. With the constant power creep they lost their luster. Right now, heroic toee at level is truly extreme. It is designed to be extremly hard to completionists with twink gear at level.

That is not to say that there aren't people that solo it for bravery routinely.

My current TR group, which this life is only the three of us, just hit this a few nights ago. TOEE on Heroic BB was a wake up moment. We had a few deaths (but no wipe), could not just chat and not pay attention to the details. While XP/Minute was below the usual rolled through adventures to that point, everyone enjoyed the quest. We also probably could have done it a little quicker if we consulted the Wiki or had run it a few times.

There should be a quest like this (maybe not the length but I had nothing against that) at every level or at least every other level, where the extreme challenge message means something like it used to, and someone should go back and remove the extreme challenge message from old quests that no longer fit the bill.


....realy- disliked the respawning mobs. I wanted to clear the quest and of cause its not possible. The respawns don't provide any extra difficulty they just waste time.... stop mob respawns - clearing the quests if more fun than finding optimal route to never double back.

I believe the respawns are there so you can hit the upper levels of the XP awards for killing creatures. Yes I have difficulty leaving a dungeon with enemies that are yet to be dispatched, but TOEE was designed to give XP for dispatching mobs similar to an explorer zone, but unlike an explorer zone you cannot just step out to reset the zone so they went with respawns for those individuals who just wanted to keep hacking at spawns.

[Full_Bleed]

Negatives: -realy- disliked the respawning mobs. I wanted to clear the quest and of cause its not possible. The respawns don't provide any extra difficulty they just waste time if you have to double back to see where that last sound orb you missed is.
I agree. With the number of spawns in the dungeon, having respawns is unnecessary and particularly punitive on Elite.


I could have opened up a wiki of cause but i didn't want to cheat first time through. Also XP per time invested is terrible. Very sad as it means i probably will never do it again at level, instead just farm the mushroom with a more powerful character if i ever need to. Why such poor xp for such a massive quest? It takes as much time as 10+ other quests of that level but gives a fraction of xp.

Kudos for not cheating your way through it. :)

But, past that, you can knock out Part 1 in about 15-20 minutes through an "optimal" path. So it's not base XP that could use (another) bump--more XP for optionals that would make exploring the whole place more worthwhile would be nice.

[Krelar]

I agree. With the number of spawns in the dungeon, having respawns is unnecessary and particularly punitive on Elite.


Rares can also be part of the respawns, so it's actually quite nice if your are item/mushroom hunting. If I have the time I usually clear the entire place twice, I usually end up with 2-5 more rares that way.

[The_Human_Cypher]

There should be a quest like this (maybe not the length but I had nothing against that) at every level or at least every other level, where the extreme challenge message means something like it used to, and someone should go back and remove the extreme challenge message from old quests that no longer fit the bill.

Proof is in the Poison and other Extreme Challenge dungeons are still difficult if not impossible for newer players. As the majority of us have been playing for years and have geared, multiple TR toons, we can do the Extreme Challenge dungeons without too much trouble but the warning should stay for the less experienced players.

I agree that we need more quests like TOEE that are very tough to do on Heroic Elite at level. I am glad that the devs have not nerfed Elite TOEE so far. We shall see how the upcoming Reaper mode changes game play for everyone.

[AbyssalMage]

Hey everyone. First let me fend off the "strong's only" / "have you tried another difficulty crowd" by saying I am not complaining of what was a very hard run for us at all it was certainly a challenge and we pushed it as far as we could until we ran outta resources. This was the first time for both of us in there so we have nothing to compare it to other than other quests of the same level.
Congratulations for trying it out at level.


What I am wondering is if it's scaling properly on Heroic Elite. We were two manning with a Pally (8 - on his first life) and a Favoured Soul (9 - on her 5th life) and in TOEE pulling a full group of Mobs was an absolute nightmare and we were constantly having to pull a couple at a time or hide around a corner to force them to melee instead of fire bows at us. When we were being ranged even my tanked up pally was taking a crazy amount of DPS. Pull two groups at once or God forbid a full group with more than 1 champion and we were genuinely risking a wipe. We got about half way through level 1 before we felt we needed to recall and do something more productive with our time.
I don't recall if it is WAI (I want to say a Developer actually stated it was but this could be 100% false) but I remember hearing that EE ToEE was designed first and then HE ToEE was created using some formula. That formula just doesn't work for the majority of players.


As a comparison we then ran an elite Tear (mobs were CR 12 and 13 same at TOEE) and it was a completely cake walk by comparison. A bit of a slog but given neither of us are new to the game and play very well together it was manageable and not once did I feel we were risking a wipe at all ever.
This happens when companies don't have quality control. It's also how Power Creep has become so rampant in DDO. I share in your frustrations but just think about in 2 to 3 years with all of the power creep they will add in heroic levels that ToEE will "suddenly" become "easy." Really it just disgusts me :(


Is it intended that TOEE is this difficult? And if so why are their CR 12 mobs running around doing about x3 the DPS of CR 12 mobs in other level 7 quests? Has it always been this way?
As stated above, yes, but I can't be definitive.
CR X NPC's from different content, released expansion, have different DPS, HP's, and strategy. Generally speaking (verified though unlocking the MM and getting hit) there is generally an inflation of HP's and damage on NPC's with the "newest" content (or degradation of HP's and damage, if going backward). Heroic ToEE is just an extreme outlier when compared to other content of appropriate level.


And again for that special crowd out there, just to be perfectly clear, I am not asking for or looking for a nerf in difficulty. I am not whining about something being "too hard". I am wondering if something is broken.

Now if the answer is "yes" this is how it's always been and is WAI might I humbly suggest that the turbine team take tear and TOEE and compare their difficulty and set the difficulty for all Elite quests to about 80% of TOEE. that might go a long way towards making elite feel like it AND not have these absurdly huge difficulty spikes in quests of the same level on the same difficulty.

Thanks.
Interesting suggestion. We will just agree to disagree :)

[Enoach]

As one that has run this on Heroic Elite at level I will say that it is one of the toughest quests reminds me of Proof is in the Poison back before they nerfed it. The Developers did say that they were going to make sure the difficulty was set so that you knew you were running this quest on Elite and for the most part they delivered.

I did this with my Warlock (3 FvS and 1 Sorc PL as well as 5 Epic PL) and a guild mate on here ranger (multiple PLs). We did not clear it all, but we did clear a good chunk in Part 1. We had fun but we were mentally exhausted as it kicked us up one side and down the other. We decided not to do part 2 as we were not sure we would be able to survive the end fight. Based on talking with others we were probably right :)

Now things that I don't like about this quest is the random FoM and Deathward on groups. They just have it and it is not a spell so can't be dispelled, it just does not show up until you attempt abilities that those save against.

[Wizza]

To the devs who will never read this: please up the xp to where its remotely tempting to run this for leveling and stop mob respawns - clearing the quests if more fun than finding optimal route to never double back.

Sorry, not going to happen. I had a thread opened for the same thing but Developers have commented how the XP was fine and ToEE was the most run content (avoiding to specify whether it was the Epic version, the Heroic one and if at level, mind you).

[AbyssalMage]

Sorry, not going to happen. I had a thread opened for the same thing but Developers have commented how the XP was fine and ToEE was the most run content (avoiding to specify whether it was the Epic version, the Heroic one and if at level, mind you).
Honestly I run HE all of the time. Granted it is with a level 28 Monk :)
In all seriousness I ran it at level 14 on HE twice and did fine in part 1. Part 2 end fight still gives me too much hassle for me not to run it at level 14 through 27. I like the mechanic of the End Fight for Part 2 but I die before finding the random safe place. I do find it amusing that the final fight is harder than most raids and it wipes a level 28 off the map in Heroics.

[Full_Bleed]

Rares can also be part of the respawns, so it's actually quite nice if your are item/mushroom hunting. If I have the time I usually clear the entire place twice, I usually end up with 2-5 more rares that way.
If you just restarted the quest you'd have the same effect.

For many, Elite in that dungeon is a seriously slow grind and the respawns just make it really annoying if you need to backtrack for some reason. I mean, it's nice that they have a way to repair in the dungeon (which is obviously there for a reason)... but if getting back to repair is a massive burden due to respawns it's not of much benefit.

[Riddle_of_Steel]

Honestly I run HE all of the time. Granted it is with a level 28 Monk :)
In all seriousness I ran it at level 14 on HE twice and did fine in part 1. Part 2 end fight still gives me too much hassle for me not to run it at level 14 through 27. I like the mechanic of the End Fight for Part 2 but I die before finding the random safe place. I do find it amusing that the final fight is harder than most raids and it wipes a level 28 off the map in Heroics.

I should hope you have no problem at 14 considering on elite it's a level 9 quest in heroics. Obviously the answer is to come back when higher level but honestly given the XP you get (very little) and the fact that by the time you can run it in a reasonable amount of time you have absolutely no need for the items in there I am just going to skip it entirely. Perhaps once the TR grind is over and we park at end game (probably YEARS from now) then I'll bother to go in there again.

If the rewards for the time were better I'd be all over it but right now the loot is unneeded, the XP is way below par and the quest itself isn't all that interesting. I think maybe the place is just too damned big? I dunno, what I do know is that while the challenge was nice we got basically nothing for a relatively large expendeture of time and resources and because of that won't be back.

it's a shame really.

[Dragavon]

I do not remember who, but one of the devs posted a comment on this around the release of ToEE. And yes, they intended ToEE on heroic elite to be extremely difficult for its level.

[cyreme]

I posted about it shortly after release. I believe issues are related to "reverse epifying" a quest - i.e. trying to scale a quest designed for epic into heroic. Archers do too much damage for level 9 quest. Heck they seem to do more damage than mobs in raids like Von 5/6 and tempest spine which are above it in level. Also I had red dragon hit me for 627 fire damage. Nothing in heroic quests at that level should hit that hard. Could have been a fluke or a weird bug, but either way issues remain. Saying they wanted it to be more difficult does not cover for that. On the plus side it provides nice challenge for those who say they are bored with a game and need a challenge :). Seriously though there is clearly a scaling issue with heroic TOEE.

[Krelar]

If you just restarted the quest you'd have the same effect.


Sure, but the second pass through I have a lot less trash and about the same number of rares so it goes much faster.

[TrinityTurtle]

One of the problems with the op is that s/he is comparing a quest that was designed before the level cap was even 20 and players had a lot less ability and reincarnation and past lives weren't in the game at all yet to a quest designed in a setting with the rework of magic, enhancement trees, and past lives both heroic and epic, and augments to gear.

It is working as it is intended. Back in it's first days, Tear of Dhakaan WAS that hard for players back in the day. According to the early beta people getting out of the starter tavern if you dump statted strength on a caster wasn't possible. The game has changed a great deal, and if you are a newer player it's hard to know this, but comparing old quests designed in an entirely different player character ability era vs now is just going to lead to trouble. Try viewing it as a curve, that quest at level for the two of you is a future goal after you've also reached the point of full gear and a few past lives under your belt. Even one past life makes a big difference in pc strength.

[Livmo]

The quest is working as intended. Mileage varies between classes and play styles. I worked over ToEE good on both heroic and epic. BTW my pure 2nd life arty struggled with ToEE and was over level. I crushed ToEE under level on my 1st life fighter, https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/460091-ToEE-vs-Might-of-the-Abishai. Please forgive that I never updated the thread after finishing.

There is allot of strategy that can be employed, i.e. in part I use the fire places for quick escape. Also, take a spell absorbtion item with you for part 2 end fight, http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_Absorption. Mantle of the Worldshaper is L5. The Scarab of Spell Absorption has no ML and you can get at least 2 part 2 enfights out of it before it's done.

Be aware of your surroundings and the respawns. Take your time and set up kill zones if possible. No zerging unless you got the grapes to back it up (DPS). Once you are comfortable with how ToEE works in part 1 and part 2 it will go smoother for you. Keep in mind some classes and playstyles fair better in ToEE than others. Take friends with you if possible.

[oldkraft2]

Its brave to try the elite heroic on level - no bad thoughts on that.
But that diff. is mainly meant for hi-level chars to grind ingredients for level 7 temple weapons and armor.
You dont need the favor from it at that level really, do you ? But its a way to 5000 favor for chars that cant get the necessary parties for a range of halfdead raids.

[Loromir]

Hey everyone. First let me fend off the "strong's only" / "have you tried another difficulty crowd" by saying I am not complaining of what was a very hard run for us at all it was certainly a challenge and we pushed it as far as we could until we ran outta resources. This was the first time for both of us in there so we have nothing to compare it to other than other quests of the same level.

What I am wondering is if it's scaling properly on Heroic Elite. We were two manning with a Pally (8 - on his first life) and a Favoured Soul (9 - on her 5th life) and in TOEE pulling a full group of Mobs was an absolute nightmare and we were constantly having to pull a couple at a time or hide around a corner to force them to melee instead of fire bows at us. When we were being ranged even my tanked up pally was taking a crazy amount of DPS. Pull two groups at once or God forbid a full group with more than 1 champion and we were genuinely risking a wipe. We got about half way through level 1 before we felt we needed to recall and do something more productive with our time.

As a comparison we then ran an elite Tear (mobs were CR 12 and 13 same at TOEE) and it was a completely cake walk by comparison. A bit of a slog but given neither of us are new to the game and play very well together it was manageable and not once did I feel we were risking a wipe at all ever.

Is it intended that TOEE is this difficult? And if so why are their CR 12 mobs running around doing about x3 the DPS of CR 12 mobs in other level 7 quests? Has it always been this way?

And again for that special crowd out there, just to be perfectly clear, I am not asking for or looking for a nerf in difficulty. I am not whining about something being "too hard". I am wondering if something is broken.

Now if the answer is "yes" this is how it's always been and is WAI might I humbly suggest that the turbine team take tear and TOEE and compare their difficulty and set the difficulty for all Elite quests to about 80% of TOEE. that might go a long way towards making elite feel like it AND not have these absurdly huge difficulty spikes in quests of the same level on the same difficulty.

Thanks.

I solo everything on HE for Bravery Bonus (Except TOEE and those that require more than one player). TOEE is HE at level is definitely not for the faint of heart.

[Spoonwelder]

I got lucky last night and saw a LFM up for it with 3 already in the group. I joined and asked if they were doing full pull or just optimal path. They were on full pull so I asked if it was ok for me to follow optimal path and work to the end.

This is on my geared completionist - Pally, PRRof 90/MRR of 70ish all good gear and I know the game pretty well. I pop in and in the first 2 minutes I had used all my LOH and I had killed only 20 or so mobs....then I remembered 'oh yeah - this is supposed to be much harder on HE than EH). It didn't help that with me in one area and the other 3 elsewhere we triggered DA pretty fast.

So I reset my mindset and didnt try to gather up mobs for cleaving, targetted the archers (hitting for 50+dmg a shot with me at 90PRR - I can't see any non-PRR builds doing to well in there) and casters first (like the old days). And plugged my way through. I did die once - my visors had run out and I went into the Earth Chamber, triggered orange alert with 2 neg levels and got hit my a soundburst and rolled a one and got ROFLStomped by the mobs. As we were still split up I caked and went back in to clean it up - took a while as I had run out of LOH, had very few pots left and I had to manage the mobs, targetting champs, ranged, caster etc....It was exciting and definitely a challenge.

I got to the second floor and it was comparatively easy - path to air had only one fight, only problem in water was not having an everbright weapon on me (I usually don't worry about it until Rainbow as it doesnt usually pose a real problem - I just carry 2 trash weapons to use) and the cube chewed up my spare weapons - fire was easy(ish) as I was able to shrine up first and go in with full LOH and buffs - the salamanders were a pain but circle strafing them and cleaving dealt with them fine. End fight I was able to solo fairly easily mainly because I had the earth ellie charm stick - so the only real problem was being flung around by the air ellie.

The quest is 20x harder than anything else at that level. The XP was actually ok - not top notch but ok at over 40k (including all the kill optionals) for 70 minutes and it could have been much faster.

I would definitely recommend a group for this one at level heroic. In a full group - even non-uber types will find this an eminently doable quest.

[Livmo]

It you want to go extra cheese on this quest use DDoor (1 and 2). There are ways to get DDoor at level. In part 1, level 2 you only need to fight the guy guarding the rune. DDoor all the keys. Be kind to yourself and others entering late and open the upper green doors after getting the first key from the rocks regarding part 1.

[Spoonwelder]

It you want to go extra cheese on this quest use DDoor (1 and 2). There are ways to get DDoor at level. In part 1, level 2 you only need to fight the guy guarding the rune. DDoor all the keys. Be kind to yourself and others entering late and open the upper green doors after getting the first key from the rocks regarding part 1.

On EE I would do that - maybe even EH if I was on a caster - but on HE the fights aren't that long such that just running back will take longer than the fight.

[Riddle_of_Steel]

I...
The quest is 20x harder than anything else at that level. The XP was actually ok - not top notch but ok at over 40k (including all the kill optionals) for 70 minutes and it could have been much faster.

I would definitely recommend a group for this one at level heroic. In a full group - even non-uber types will find this an eminently doable quest.

For sure I think in a full group, especially one with a good CC arcane this wouldn't be too bad but to dual on a Pally and a FvS it's just not worth the time for the XP you gain. Like I said it's one we are going to skip, maybe come back to when we are over level (say level 12 or so) but probably not.

I do get that new content is sometimes be harder than old content but I am not sure that new content creatures of the same CR should be hitting orders of magnitude harder than old content creatures of the same type and CR. In this case archers. My Pally had an AC of 70something and PRR of ~100 at level 9 and he was being utterly shredded by those archers. I wondered if they were possibly doing Epic damage rather than Heroic (that has happened) but in this case it sounds more like they didn't really build Heroic but scaled it down so in a sense I guess they are.

Makes one wonder how they determine what the CR of a MoB is though as there doesn't appear to be any sort of standard formula.

[FranOhmsford]

I think the answer is Yes, that TOEE on Heroic Elite is supposed to be very difficult. Attempting to 2 man an Elite TOEE is not a good idea. The bar was set high so that players would be encouraged to group and also to prevent players from quickly blowing through the new content on the highest difficulty and then getting bored with it. At least, that is what I would surmise.

So instead hardly anyone runs it on Heroic Elite at or anywhere near at level!

And Epic? Yeah you've got the Ubers who can solo EE and then you've got everyone else who doesn't even bother running it on Epic at all because they can get the Favour by running Heroic at 28 and even EN is beyond their ability/time constraints to solo!


ToEE is broken! Blatantly so!

[FranOhmsford]

I should hope you have no problem at 14 considering on elite it's a level 9 quest in heroics.

First time I went in there was on a Lvl 20!

Died instantly at the start of the End Fight of Pt 2!

Burnt a cake and completed But there's literally no way I'll ever run HE ToEE on a lower than Lvl 15 character and even at 15/16/17 there's only a few characters I'd attempt it on {S&B Paladin, Warlock}.

The difficulty of HE ToEE is higher than Madstone Crater {Which I have soloed on Elite BB multiple times!}. I'd say it's more difficult than Cruci/Tor too except that Cruci is impossible for me to solo at ANY level thanks to rune-wheels and Tor Dragons are definitely more difficult than ToEE!

It really is ludicrous that the Devs placed this at Lvl 7! Even at Lvl 12 it would warrant an Extreme Challenge warning!

[FranOhmsford]

As one that has run this on Heroic Elite at level I will say that it is one of the toughest quests reminds me of Proof is in the Poison back before they nerfed it.

Excuse me but how exactly has Proof been Nerfed?

The quest is exactly the same now as it was in 2010 when I came to DDO!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

People have been complaining for awhile now that the game is too easy; so they gave us something harder.

People TR all the time.

Raise Dead scrolls can be used at lvl 7, and all those TRs should have the plat for all the resources they need.

Bring a group (another thing people complained about BTW)

Drink your pots.
Heal each other.
Raise each other.

Uses your CC.


If you can just get past the desire to be back to level 20 by Friday, ToEE offers a lot of fun.....

[Tscheuss]

Moving player-characters are tougher to hit with arrows (and other things). :rolleyes:

[madmike77]

It's definitely far tougher than comparable quests on Heroic Elite. I run a permadeath group with a couple of friends. Rules are we always have to run on elite, no AH, no mass buying of consumables, etc. We'd had no issues with dungeons on HE up to that point. We pulled the first "trash" pack in ToEE and nearly died. I was healing and could barely keep the tank up.

We left after two pack pulls - it wasn't doable on Heroic Elite given the rules we run.

[Riddle_of_Steel]

People have been complaining for awhile now that the game is too easy; so they gave us something harder.
...
Bring a group (another thing people complained about BTW)

Drink your pots.
Heal each other.
Raise each other.

Uses your CC. ...
Agreed and like I have said I am not calling for a nerf or anything. I would also note that we didn't wipe either. Having said that we didn't complete and at level 7 this is harder than all quests on it's level and is probably on par with quests twice it's level.

The difficulty spike was simply so huge I wondered if it wasn't using the wrong damage / difficulty (as has happened in the past) and therefore broken. It appears that it's not broken but working as intended and if that is the case then for us we will pass on the quest and maybe come back over level but are more likely we won't.

It's not because it's difficult (we cherish difficult runs, the ones we remember are the messy ones) but this we were in there for half an hour and got very little XP for the time and though it was "hard" it wasn't "interesting" or even "entertaining" it was simply ultra high range DPS bags of hit points. The only thing we found remotely entertaining were the handful of Wil Wheaton's musings we came across. Essentially this quest, for us, was very very VERY meh. If we weren't dualing it might be more approachable, but maybe not because scaling is going to kick in. We tried a couple of hires but they died so quick it was impossible to heal them much less have them heal us or deal any meaningful DPS.

It's disappointing but perhaps we will epic run it, assuming we don't immediately do Heroic TR's, as it appears that is when the Quest was actually designed to be run.

[lotoluck678]

The quest is working as intended. Mileage varies between classes and play styles. I worked over ToEE good on both heroic and epic. BTW my pure 2nd life arty struggled with ToEE and was over level. I crushed ToEE under level on my 1st life fighter, https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/460091-ToEE-vs-Might-of-the-Abishai. Please forgive that I never updated the thread after finishing.

There is allot of strategy that can be employed, i.e. in part I use the fire places for quick escape. Also, take a spell absorbtion item with you for part 2 end fight, http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_Absorption. Mantle of the Worldshaper is L5. The Scarab of Spell Absorption has no ML and you can get at least 2 part 2 enfights out of it before it's done.

Be aware of your surroundings and the respawns. Take your time and set up kill zones if possible. No zerging unless you got the grapes to back it up (DPS). Once you are comfortable with how ToEE works in part 1 and part 2 it will go smoother for you. Keep in mind some classes and playstyles fair better in ToEE than others. Take friends with you if possible.

It really depends on your build/gear/level etc. the weapons aren't bad considering. they're a bit on the old side, but 5d16 AoE vorpals, elemental bursts, maiming, etc. that's all pretty good for a level 7 weapon. honestly it's kind of disgusting. the quest still gives solid experience (about 30-35k on pt 1 elite going up to 750 kills) even at level 13 when it starts to become more viable to solo. but it's really up to your build. there are an INSANE number of good, viable dual-class and multi-class options that scale HARD between levels 9 and 15. depending on what you want you can end up biting a bullet for your early game, but that can usually be fixed between 9 and 11. between 11 and 13 is a good time for this quest in my own personal opinion. there are a LOT of good options at this point, with level 11's having access to 5/3/3's, 6/5's or even 7/3/1's for people who drop a single level into something like thief or artificer for obvious reasons. level 12's likewise have access to 7/5's, 6/3/3's or even 8/3/1's (again for you people who just pick up open lock and disarm trap and mash bonuses early to avoid needing to level the class until later). at level 13 things really heat up with access to 8/5's 5/5/3's, 6/4/3's, 7/3/3's or even 7/5/1's (because you CAN still carry open lock/search/disarm traps off gear alone with some effort).

i screwed up my current build. i'm in a bad spot at FS5, Sorc 4 and paladin 4. even so, with 382 hp, less than 70 PRR and less than 50 MRR, i can struggle through ToEE on hard. if i bring a friend who also has a screwed up build at monk 6, fighter 3 and Wizard 3 with less than 200 hp, 50 PRR and 30 MRR... we can clear on elite without too much difficulty. the quest isn't EASY, but it's acceptable. which brings me to my main point... did ToEE respawn rates get nerfed? this quest is so frustrating to play because around the time you get to the 750 kill objective your scouring the whole dungeon and finding maybe 30-45 mobs per patrol. you spend HOURS trying to get to 1500 on part 1. part 2 isn't as bad, but i really have to wonder whether or not the spawn rates were nerfed due to player salt. it wouldn't change the difficulty at ALL to double the respawn rate right now. it's just so scattered, and it takes WAY too long. i can easily see it taking 12+ hours to get to 3k kills when i'm finding less than 125 kills during each. if there's a flag that increases or decreases the delay between respawns i would LOVE to know, because i can't find ANYTHING to tell me what i'm doing wrong or not doing right

[Wahnsinnig]

It really depends on your build/gear/level etc. the weapons aren't bad considering.

7 year necro :p

[lotoluck678]

7 year necro :p

when someone is looking for the answer to a question, and the closest thing they can find is a remotely similar discussion... it's kinda rude to change the original subject, you know? hence contribute, then add your question as a footnote.


it's called manners.

Edit: sorry, i kinda jumped on that. the way the world is nowadays, i kinda just saw that as a cheap provocation and didn't think twice. maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. either way, rude to assume.

[Steeme]

when someone is looking for the answer to a question, and the closest thing they can find is a remotely similar discussion... it's kinda rude to change the original subject, you know? hence contribute, then add your question as a footnote.


it's called manners.

Edit: sorry, i kinda jumped on that. the way the world is nowadays, i kinda just saw that as a cheap provocation and didn't think twice. maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. either way, rude to assume.

Yeah, you missed the point.

Necroing old threads is pointless because the game has changed so much since then. The previous discussion is most likely not relevant anymore - especially with any references to difficulty. For example Lvl 5 Feywild gear didn't exist back then - also casters and melee have gone through significant overhauls improving their DPS.

Finally, depending on how deep the necro, the original posters aren't even participating in the forums anymore - so it's like you're having a discussion with corpses.

[Raithe]

...but i really have to wonder whether or not the spawn rates were nerfed due to player salt. it wouldn't change the difficulty at ALL to double the respawn rate right now. it's just so scattered, and it takes WAY too long. i can easily see it taking 12+ hours to get to 3k kills

ToEE has no respawn. The dungeon levels are sitting on a grid of squares or heaxagons or perhaps there is a linked list of coordinates (linked list in programmer terms). The squares or hexagons or coordinates are not all filled when you enter the quest, some are filled (or not filled, empty is probably a valid outcome for a location) while you are running the quest. Once you have cleared a particular location, no mobs will return to that exact location. It was the developer's method of randomizing the dungeon.

If all you are doing when running the quest is pulling the xp from the slayer optionals, the way to do that would be to find a spider nest in part 1 and keep killing spiders until you have the threshold you desire. That is the only mechanic that would let you get the full gamut of optionals. In general, you won't be able to get 750 kills on normal or hard, and I doubt it's possible to get 1500 kills on any difficulty without farming spiderlings.

With regards to the original OP:
1) I do consider Heroic Elite to be broken as far as the end fight of part 2 goes - low level characters simply can't move fast enough for the end fight mechanics to work. It will be a **** shoot, always. That should be avoided in games of skill rather than chance.
2) The number of mobs that spawn in ToEE has definitely been lowered at some time in the past. When it first came out, hard was actually a pretty good slog with groups of 8-10 mobs. Now, most random spawn areas seem to be limited to 4 or 5 mobs. This was probably done to reduce lag with a smaller server farm.

[Arkat]

ToEE has no respawn. The dungeon levels are sitting on a grid of squares or heaxagons or perhaps there is a linked list of coordinates (linked list in programmer terms). The squares or hexagons or coordinates are not all filled when you enter the quest, some are filled (or not filled, empty is probably a valid outcome for a location) while you are running the quest. Once you have cleared a particular location, no mobs will return to that exact location. It was the developer's method of randomizing the dungeon.

If all you are doing when running the quest is pulling the xp from the slayer optionals, the way to do that would be to find a spider nest in part 1 and keep killing spiders until you have the threshold you desire. That is the only mechanic that would let you get the full gamut of optionals. In general, you won't be able to get 750 kills on normal or hard, and I doubt it's possible to get 1500 kills on any difficulty without farming spiderlings.

With regards to the original OP:
1) I do consider Heroic Elite to be broken as far as the end fight of part 2 goes - low level characters simply can't move fast enough for the end fight mechanics to work. It will be a **** shoot, always. That should be avoided in games of skill rather than chance.
2) The number of mobs that spawn in ToEE has definitely been lowered at some time in the past. When it first came out, hard was actually a pretty good slog with groups of 8-10 mobs. Now, most random spawn areas seem to be limited to 4 or 5 mobs. This was probably done to reduce lag with a smaller server farm.

Again, 7 year necro. :rolleyes:

Please do not feed the Liches.