Melee lock advice

[Arsont]

Howdy all,

I've been leveling a melee lock to get back my Completionist status, and it's been a blast. Currently, my build is 12/4/2 Warlock/Paladin/Ranger. I have the full twf chain, and picked up PBS and Manyshot for single-target burst (Flavor choice. I may swap those for Khopesh and Quicken once I hit epics). I have Max and Empower for the bursts. Most of my ap are in ES, enough to pick up the T5 burst and Shining Through. I've also picked up the +6 con from SD and DM from Kotc.

While my build isn't really optimized, it performs well and fits my vision for the toon. Besides, it's fun. That being said, I'm torn on what to take for my last 2 levels to keep my toon semi-viable.

2 more warlock would get be another pact and EB die each, as well as access to self-cast Tensor's.

2 more ranger gets me Ram's (+3 damage over 2 more lock levels since Tensor's can be scrolled in a pinch), and Precise Shot.

The main question I have is how much of an impact those two extra die from warlock would make in epics. Currently I'm looking at using DC as my main leveling destiny, but I'll play around with others. I have all destinies capped and 3 twists available. I'm not set on epic feats outside of OC, so I can adapt there as needed.

Thanks in advance for any advice. I can give further information on request.

[Violith]

Howdy all,

I've been leveling a melee lock to get back my Completionist status, and it's been a blast. Currently, my build is 12/4/2 Warlock/Paladin/Ranger. I have the full twf chain, and picked up PBS and Manyshot for single-target burst (Flavor choice. I may swap those for Khopesh and Quicken once I hit epics). I have Max and Empower for the bursts. Most of my ap are in ES, enough to pick up the T5 burst and Shining Through. I've also picked up the +6 con from SD and DM from Kotc.

While my build isn't really optimized, it performs well and fits my vision for the toon. Besides, it's fun. That being said, I'm torn on what to take for my last 2 levels to keep my toon semi-viable.

2 more warlock would get be another pact and EB die each, as well as access to self-cast Tensor's.

2 more ranger gets me Ram's (+3 damage over 2 more lock levels since Tensor's can be scrolled in a pinch), and Precise Shot.

The main question I have is how much of an impact those two extra die from warlock would make in epics. Currently I'm looking at using DC as my main leveling destiny, but I'll play around with others. I have all destinies capped and 3 twists available. I'm not set on epic feats outside of OC, so I can adapt there as needed.

Thanks in advance for any advice. I can give further information on request.

Not sure the point of pbs and manyshot, especially if its merely before epics. even more so when your using twf, you'd be doing more damage with the bursts/aura and melee weapons then with a bow. for ranged you could easily switch to either the focused blast or chain (if you got it). As far as burst DPS. there isnt much point in heroics.

at 12 warlock you'd have 6d6 blast, and 6d4 pact damage. (plus whatever your enhancements give you). thats 3d6 and 4d4 lower then a full warlock (And 1d6+1d4 as a level 14 warlock, plus a pact spell (Greater Dispel Magic, Binding Chain, Dominate Person, depending on pact) a 4th level spell slot, a 5th level spell slot, as well as +5mrr, and +5UMD) (Too bad you need the other levels as 15warlock is the nice level where you get the special pact ability)

That said, with the bursts actually attacking in melee without attack speed boost and high BAB will actually lower your overall damage (not sure if its meant to work like that, but there is a delay after the bursts before your able to swing your weapons, so after the bursts there is a 2 second (might be higher without speedboost and bab) pause before you start swinging, and within 2-3 swings you could burst again, doing it too late would decrease your damage. so I an say that being able to self-cast tensers (since your not going to get the capstone for the full bab) Would be helpful as not sure the scroll would last long enough to be worth it.

[Errtu-Zarathos]

I think all Wlocks need atleast 2paladin for saves. Full Wlock is nice in Heroic content, but in epic you will fail in save too much. I dont think you need any other classes there. Ranger would give some bonuses to twf, but not that much.
Minimum wlock levels is 12 to get profience for all Martial weapons (ES core 4) lower then that melee should use qstaffs and with that you need atleast 1rogue or 2 (TA T1 qstaff attackspeed +15% (3AP), TA T2 qstaff doublestrike 25% 10sec/12sec CD (7AP)). That attack speed is good buff with low enough AP cost. With 12Wlocks, you can use pretty much any weapon.

Anyways, in your build I don't understand why you buff your character with ranged class, when your main class is ranged? Or if you play wlock as in melee, why you buff it with ranged? As Violith wrote, cos you cant get capstone from ES your BAB just isnt going to be that high. I think multiclassed melee wlocks use melee more as filler between bursts and blast. Depending who high CHA is, shoud you use DM or just ditch KotC and go in SaD T4 and take +6STR and 10% movement speed. From TS you could get 1d4+1d4 to your pact 3+4AP.

Not sure if burst/blast using wlocks should even use tenser.. they are more and less your main dmg dealers and doubling theyr cd should drop dps quite bit. I haven't tryed doest it really apply in them also.

[cru121]

Not sure if burst/blast using wlocks should even use tenser.. they are more and less your main dmg dealers and doubling theyr cd should drop dps quite bit. I haven't tryed doest it really apply in them also.

Tenser's increased cooldown does not apply to SLAs. I am running with Tenser's and Resilience stance and I'm happily blasting and bursting everything in sight.

[Arsont]

Basically, I took PBS and Manyshot because I wasn't sure if I would enjoy warlock, and my backup build for classes I don't want/like to play usually involves 6 ranger and either 6 monk or 4 pally. This toon has done every class so far as some variant of an Arcane Archer with those splits, because I like the ability to swap from ranged to melee at will. However, once I started playing around with lock, I enjoyed it, so decided to go deeper, either 12 or 14 levels. My plan is to grind out a couple more epic pl's with this build, so I kept Manyshot. I'm highly considering swapping PBS/Manyshot for Khopesh and either Extend or Quicken though, given that I can swap to ranged with EB Focused. Does Quicken impact the bursts any, and if so, how?

To clarify my initial question: How noticeable are the extra 1d6/1d4 from taking 14 lock vs 12? Taking into account scaling in ed's.

The extra spell slot is basically moot, since I'd just be taking Tensor's for an 18 second duration increase over self cast (Assuming no extend). Bab isn't an issue if I'm running in DC or have Tensor's up. Greater Dispel isn't that useful for me considering at most I'll have 14 caster level (Exception being spell wards). The bonus MRR is nice, as is the UMD, but neither make an actual impact for me.

As to the issue with the pause after bursts: Again, assuming I'm in DC or have Tensor's running, I'll have full bab with self-cast haste and full twf. I can't really tell if the pause changed any with my bab increase, but I've found that if I use the bursts at certain points in my attack chain, there's almost no interruption to my actual autos. It's not quite as fluid as cleaving, but it hasn't been overly distracting.

My first level on this toon was pally, so I had full martial out the gate. I used thf with greatswords (Guardian's Dagger>Carnifex>Sword of the 30>SoS) until I picked up Itwf and greensteel at 12. I did take the 4th ES core, but for the aura speed.

I can second Tensor's not applying to SLA's.

I can give a full layout of the build if anyone has questions or wants a better idea of what I'm looking at.
Thanks yall for the input so far.

[richieelias27]

I think all Wlocks need atleast 2paladin for saves. Full Wlock is nice in Heroic content, but in epic you will fail in save too much.

Warlock has a save advantage over other arcane classes. Since other classes have proven to be just fine without 2 paladin, what makes Warlock so "gimped" in the saves department that 2 paladin levels is a must have?

[Loromir]

Warlock has a save advantage over other arcane classes. Since other classes have proven to be just fine without 2 paladin, what makes Warlock so "gimped" in the saves department that 2 paladin levels is a must have?

A lot of sorcs take 2 lvls of pally for extra save (Really, a big boost to saves). A lot of wiz's take insightful relfexes for a big boost to reflex saves (Arguably the most important save). Pure warlocks have fairly low saves in comparison so 2 lvl of pally makes the difference in saves like night and day.

[jalont]

A lot of sorcs take 2 lvls of pally for extra save (Really, a big boost to saves). A lot of wiz's take insightful relfexes for a big boost to reflex saves (Arguably the most important save). Pure warlocks have fairly low saves in comparison so 2 lvl of pally makes the difference in saves like night and day.

I don't think I've died a single time from anything that a reflex save would save against since the PRR and MRR changes.

[Violith]

A lot of sorcs take 2 lvls of pally for extra save (Really, a big boost to saves). A lot of wiz's take insightful relfexes for a big boost to reflex saves (Arguably the most important save). Pure warlocks have fairly low saves in comparison so 2 lvl of pally makes the difference in saves like night and day.

at cap, warlocks saves are +6fort, +6reflex, +12will, +5(For pact). meaning their base saves (without pact) is equal to both sorc/wiz, so they're slightly better off then wizards and sorcs. While its possible to get higher insightful reflex on a wizard, a warlock shouldnt dump intel so while it'd probably be a good deal lower on a warlock then a wiz, they can still make use of insightful reflexes and still hit similiar saves if they wanted. since your LG you'd have to pick fey (They get bonus to reflex, which at level 12 is a +3) meaning thats 6 less intel you'd have to hit compared to a wiz in order to get the same save bonus from insightful reflex, which if your tomes/items/etc are the same isnt that hard.

2 levels of pali does make quite a difference (I think on the one warlock build it was like an extra +25 to all saves due to having such a high charisma. However, they eventually plan on lowering that to be based on pali level (forget the exact formula it was, but at 2 pali levels it'd be a +8 cap) So if you build for that, expect it to not always be there. However, they did make the capstones quite good for the warlock so it makes multiclassing them a tough choice.

as for saves, they do make a difference in some areas, however unless your trying for a no fail build (which currectly there isnt much need for apart from a few EE quests), warlocks should do just fine. my arti can play EE's just fine (Course some are more challanging but that makes it more fun) and her saves are probably all in their 20's-30's, which just about any class makeup can hit without a problem

[Violith]

Basically, I took PBS and Manyshot because I wasn't sure if I would enjoy warlock, and my backup build for classes I don't want/like to play usually involves 6 ranger and either 6 monk or 4 pally. This toon has done every class so far as some variant of an Arcane Archer with those splits, because I like the ability to swap from ranged to melee at will. However, once I started playing around with lock, I enjoyed it, so decided to go deeper, either 12 or 14 levels. My plan is to grind out a couple more epic pl's with this build, so I kept Manyshot. I'm highly considering swapping PBS/Manyshot for Khopesh and either Extend or Quicken though, given that I can swap to ranged with EB Focused. Does Quicken impact the bursts any, and if so, how?

To clarify my initial question: How noticeable are the extra 1d6/1d4 from taking 14 lock vs 12? Taking into account scaling in ed's.

The extra spell slot is basically moot, since I'd just be taking Tensor's for an 18 second duration increase over self cast (Assuming no extend). Bab isn't an issue if I'm running in DC or have Tensor's up. Greater Dispel isn't that useful for me considering at most I'll have 14 caster level (Exception being spell wards). The bonus MRR is nice, as is the UMD, but neither make an actual impact for me.

As to the issue with the pause after bursts: Again, assuming I'm in DC or have Tensor's running, I'll have full bab with self-cast haste and full twf. I can't really tell if the pause changed any with my bab increase, but I've found that if I use the bursts at certain points in my attack chain, there's almost no interruption to my actual autos. It's not quite as fluid as cleaving, but it hasn't been overly distracting.

My first level on this toon was pally, so I had full martial out the gate. I used thf with greatswords (Guardian's Dagger>Carnifex>Sword of the 30>SoS) until I picked up Itwf and greensteel at 12. I did take the 4th ES core, but for the aura speed.

I can second Tensor's not applying to SLA's.

I can give a full layout of the build if anyone has questions or wants a better idea of what I'm looking at.
Thanks yall for the input so far.

not sure how long a self cast tensers is compared to a scroll. but if your in ES, tensers does help give you more temp hp from shining through (48 more, still worth a hit or two outside of epics) which stacks with rages, so even if you have other forms of getting bab, it is still useful to cast. also, not sure what your 4th level spell is but Evard's Black Tentacles is definately good. as for greater dispel, yes not that useful until you start running into spell wards (Which unless you got alot of sp still isnt that useful).

however lvl 13 warlock gets a +5 to umd, which is very useful. and at 14 in addition to the spell they get +5mrr (which is also useful)
as for the dmg, 1d6+1d4 roughly depends on what you can get your spellpower too (not sure about the upper maximum, but 500-600 probably isnt uncommon on your capped) plus the bursts can get another 225 (150 for max, 75 for empower). so with the aura its probably about 5-36 + 5-25 dmg at cap, with max spellpower.

[Loromir]

However, they eventually plan on lowering that to be based on pali level (forget the exact formula it was, but at 2 pali levels it'd be a +8 cap) So if you build for that, expect it to not always be there.

I've been hearing this for a long time...but I don't think they have the stomach for all the back-lash they would receive from such a move. I'll believe it when I see it.

[Arsont]

First off, I wanted to update folks on what's going on. I capped this build last night. For my final split I ended up going with 14/4/2 lock/pal/ranger. I'm currently running in Divine Crusader, with Radiant Power, Prism and Rainbow twisted. I'll run with this set up for a level or two to see how I like it. If I enjoy it as much in epics as I did in heroics, I'll probably TR and swap the 2 ranger for a level of fighter, dropping PBS and Manyshot for Khopesh and Extend/Quicken


not sure how long a self cast tensers is compared to a scroll. but if your in ES, tensers does help give you more temp hp from shining through (48 more, still worth a hit or two outside of epics) which stacks with rages, so even if you have other forms of getting bab, it is still useful to cast. also, not sure what your 4th level spell is but Evard's Black Tentacles is definately good. as for greater dispel, yes not that useful until you start running into spell wards (Which unless you got alot of sp still isnt that useful).

however lvl 13 warlock gets a +5 to umd, which is very useful. and at 14 in addition to the spell they get +5mrr (which is also useful)
as for the dmg, 1d6+1d4 roughly depends on what you can get your spellpower too (not sure about the upper maximum, but 500-600 probably isnt uncommon on your capped) plus the bursts can get another 225 (150 for max, 75 for empower). so with the aura its probably about 5-36 + 5-25 dmg at cap, with max spellpower.

My self-cast right now lasts 18 seconds longer than a scroll (1:24 vs 1:06). I do use it quite frequently for the bonus to str and con. I'm almost always running in defender stance, so I can't be raged. I did pick up the bonus +6 con from the defender stance though. For my 4th level, I did take Evard's. Originally I was just taking it to mess around with it, but it seems to be performing well so I'll keep it for a while longer.

I'm struggling on the spellpower side of things; I'm sitting at 180 base (No shipbuffs, no Empyrean Magic stacks, etc). I know I need a better radiance item; Right now I'm still using the lv 14 Shamanic Fetish. I usually don't play casters as casters, so what gear should I keep an eye out for?

Also, does Quicken impact the bursts? If so, how?

Thanks yall for the input so far.

[Violith]

First off, I wanted to update folks on what's going on. I capped this build last night. For my final split I ended up going with 14/4/2 lock/pal/ranger. I'm currently running in Divine Crusader, with Radiant Power, Prism and Rainbow twisted. I'll run with this set up for a level or two to see how I like it. If I enjoy it as much in epics as I did in heroics, I'll probably TR and swap the 2 ranger for a level of fighter, dropping PBS and Manyshot for Khopesh and Extend/Quicken



My self-cast right now lasts 18 seconds longer than a scroll (1:24 vs 1:06). I do use it quite frequently for the bonus to str and con. I'm almost always running in defender stance, so I can't be raged. I did pick up the bonus +6 con from the defender stance though. For my 4th level, I did take Evard's. Originally I was just taking it to mess around with it, but it seems to be performing well so I'll keep it for a while longer.

I'm struggling on the spellpower side of things; I'm sitting at 180 base (No shipbuffs, no Empyrean Magic stacks, etc). I know I need a better radiance item; Right now I'm still using the lv 14 Shamanic Fetish. I usually don't play casters as casters, so what gear should I keep an eye out for?

Also, does Quicken impact the bursts? If so, how?

Thanks yall for the input so far.

quicken was said to let them go off sooner, not sure how much animation there is between the click and the dmg without it as I havent really tested it. so cant say atm

as far as the rages, I know that atleast for the primal scream rage, you can cast the rage then enter defensive stance. spellpower, you can get a 150 item at level 22 through thunderforge (
the thunderforge should give 150 (to one) and be a +9 item at 22, thus should give 27 implement for a total of 177 just for that) .other then that you can look here for ideas (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/424745-Max-Spell-Power?) many wont apply to your build as its mostly for a sorc, but there are some universal (like the alchemical pot and psionic (eardweleer) taht you can use,