+7 Tomes on Sale for 2 days.

[Drwaz99]

https://www.ddo.com/en/store


DDO Unlimited ?@DDOUnlimited 55m55 minutes ago
+7 Stat Tomes are available - for a limited time! August 7th through the 9th. #DDO

All I have to say about that.

[mikarddo]

https://www.ddo.com/en/store

All I have to say about that.

I find this to be sad but sadly expected.

[LightBear]

https://www.ddo.com/en/store



All I have to say about that.

Thx for pointing it out, needlessly to say but bought. :)

[Vanhooger]

The only reason to have people run toee is gone.

Well done. lol

[IronClan]

And we sincerely asked not to put those fkn tomes into the store, to leave it as ingame only achievment that players get via gameplay.
Of course we expected this idiotism to happen.
Good job ddo, for listening to your playerbase

We? You have multiple personalities? I find the feigned outrage over something that was obvious to everyone who can count up to 7 to be eye rolling.

[Cetus]

https://www.ddo.com/en/store



All I have to say about that.

Unreal

Things like this really make me want to quit this game

[Pnumbra]

Brilliant marketing move to make fast cash, bad strategic move that will only increase creep and reduce reasons to do certain quest. Our treadmill is getting smaller. Dev's/Producers et.al., you could have introduced these tomes into EH/EE/Raid content to rejuvenate player activity. Why these three:

EH - because there are plenty of casual players who don't want to be left out.

EE - because it is the mantel of skilled play

Raids - because they are raids

[Qaliya]

5400 TP for a +7 tome.

Or if I want to upgrade from my current +5, 7500 TP.

The upgrade tomes are seriously overpriced.

[Braegan]

5400 TP for a +7 tome.

Or if I want to upgrade from my current +5, 7500 TP.

The upgrade tomes are seriously overpriced.

5400 for 6 +7 tomes to be correct.

ETA: Ok now I see your point. Well yeah if you are taking two steps it would cost more. Not seeing the issue here.

[Lemdog]

Are you serious devs? I JUST got my +6 to +7 tome from toee and you do this smooth move?? Thanks for making all that time worthless! :(

[Braegan]

Are you serious devs? I JUST got my +6 to +7 tome from toee and you do this smooth move?? Thanks for making all that time worthless! :(

Not worthless. Your time was worth exactly 1095 TP. :D

[Qaliya]

Not seeing the issue here.

The issue is that the upgrade pricing on tomes is almost the same as the cost of buying the tome from scratch, which I believe is unfair. It's a significantly worse deal than many other types of upgrades.

I already paid a lot to get the +5 and basically that is now worthless if I want to go to +7. Even before the +7 came out, it was close to worthless if I wanted to go to +6 (which I am now very glad I did not!)

[Gauthaag]

cashgrab must always look like nice deal otherwise it wont work:) they don't care if its +6to +7, +5, or +3 - they care if u buy it

[Chai]

Each time I see one of these threads, I think back to the discussions we had ~2010 about how this wasn't going to turn into exactly what is has turned into, and I take a look at the names of those people who posted their disagreement that it would ever get to this point, and realize one thing.

The vast majority of them no longer play.

[Braegan]

The issue is that the upgrade pricing on tomes is almost the same as the cost of buying the tome from scratch, which I believe is unfair. It's a significantly worse deal than many other types of upgrades.

I already paid a lot to get the +5 and basically that is now worthless if I want to go to +7. Even before the +7 came out, it was close to worthless if I wanted to go to +6 (which I am now very glad I did not!)

But you are upgrading two steps.

Upgrading one step is less than a full on tome.

Upgrading two steps is more.

It seems like a natural progression to me.

/shrug

[Gauthaag]

selling tomes in store have nothing to do with natural progression.

[Braegan]

selling tomes in store have nothing to do with natural progression.

Note I did not say I was for or against their sale.

I just merely stated their pricing was in line with a natural progression.

[DDOKillingMachine]

The only reason to have people run toee is gone.

Eh, if trying to score a tome that shouldn't exist was the only reason people were running ToEE, all that means is that ToEE is a poorly designed quest.

[Qaliya]

I realize that I was talking about a 2-step upgrade, but what I'm saying is that the upgrades are overpriced regardless.

Ignore for a moment the +7s and the current sale and look at regular prices.

+5 supreme: 4795.
+6 supreme: 5095.

Difference in price between the two: 300.

Now I wouldn't expect the +5 to +6 upgrade to cost 300, but it's actually 3995. Does that really seem reasonable?

In contrast...

+1 tome of fate: 595.
+2 tome of fate: 995.
+1 to +2 upgrade: 595.

That is reasonable.

[Braegan]

I realize that I was talking about a 2-step upgrade, but what I'm saying is that the upgrades are overpriced regardless.

Ignore for a moment the +7s and the current sale and look at regular prices.

+5 supreme: 4795.
+6 supreme: 5095.

Difference in price between the two: 300.

Now I wouldn't expect the +5 to +6 upgrade to cost 300, but it's actually 3995. Does that really seem reasonable?

In contrast...

+1 tome of fate: 595.
+2 tome of fate: 995.
+1 to +2 upgrade: 595.

That is reasonable.

Except your example of the tome of fate is an upgrade of 1 total step.

A supreme tome +6 can be an upgrade of 6 total steps.

It can appear skewed if you are somewhere in the higher end of those steps (it feels like it's over priced) but if you were on the lower end of those steps it wouldn't feel that way. It makes complete sense.

[Qaliya]

6-5 = 2-1 = 1. Your position makes no sense to me at all, but that's fine, we can disagree on this.

What is a fact though is that because of these ridiculous upgrade costs, I will not be buying an upgrade. With a more reasonable fee, I would.

[cyreme]

https://www.ddo.com/en/store



All I have to say about that.

Kinda sad. All those tomes I got from TOEE now seem less of a prize. Oh well. Still costs quite a bit though. Of course this could be seen a mile away. When you are running an FTP model money has to come from somewhere. Tomes are probably a reliable cash cow (I don't know what actual numbers are, just guessing). It allows a ptw solution for new players and brings some money in. I guess for long time players it's a bit of a BOHICA situation :).

[Lonnbeimnech]

The release of +6 tomes came so quickly after the release of +5s that I didn't buy them at the time, knowing that +7s would be here soon. And here we are. Think I'll just wait for +8s to come out. Should be 3 or 4 months.

[blerkington]

Hi,

This release reeks of desperation to me.

Hopefully they can use the revenue to hire a producer who can halt the decline in player numbers, repair some of the terrible rules changes made recently, and fix bugs and lag.

Thanks.

[IronClan]

Each time I see one of these threads, I think back to the discussions we had ~2010 about how this wasn't going to turn into exactly what is has turned into, and I take a look at the names of those people who posted their disagreement that it would ever get to this point, and realize one thing.

The vast majority of them no longer play.

Ahh it's the good old Chai post where he claims someone unspecified said something, and claims those people now acknowledge/surely see his wisdom and then claims some other thing he can't possible know was caused by his premise. Chai do you really not see your pattern with these posts now that I've pointed out about 13 or 14 of them? I think we need a name for this kind of post... I just can't come up with anything suitably descriptive.

Your sage wisdom in being able to extrapolate the incredibly obvious from what they already sell in the store knows no... it's... it's not... yeah no one finds this remarkable but you. Link us to posts where people say that +2, +3 and +4 tomes in the store SURELY wont possibly lead to +5 tomes in the store. Once again you're just making up stuff so you can pat yourself on the back over imaginary victories.

Anyone who didn't see this coming is blind. Anyone who sees it as a sign of the DDOpoclypse is just as wrong as they were when they did the same hand wringing over +4 tomes, the same over +5 tomes and of course the same thing over +6 tomes.

Anyway you all enjoy your tut tuting and cluck clucking your feigned shock and feigned outrage got to have something to do on the forums in mid summer amiright?

Protip: at some point there will be a +8 tome ML30 and it will *closes eyes and does some fake phychic mumbojumbo* it WILL APEAR IN THE STORE! *gasp* *swoon*

[slarden]

1) Each 20th Defiler of the Just completion should give a 50% chance of getting a +7 tome on the list.
2) Tome drop rates should be increased in raid chests
3) The U27 quests should have a chance to drop +6 to +7 upgrade tomes on EE

[hkusp45]

It would be nice if in game tomes were mythic tomes (+7 with +1 to spell power , or MMR/PRR) I tried to get my +7 running TOEE , & I will continue the quest. I'm in no hurry to buy a +7, maybe I will get one for Christmas :)

[Lemdog]

Everything Turbine does of late makes me sick to my stomach. This is what happens when the producer of a company is a money hungry germ.

Tell me about it.. The fact that i just wasted about 19 hours worth of time grinding out two +6-7 tomes just for them to hit the store is beyond infuriating! All ol' turbine cares about these days is $$$...

[IronClan]

Tell me about it.. The fact that i just wasted about 19 hours worth of time grinding out two +6-7 tomes just for them to hit the store is beyond infuriating! All ol' turbine cares about these days is $$$...

The part where you assume a coorporation might have any non profit motive at all is probably where you're going wrong.

[Braegan]

6-5 = 2-1 = 1. Your position makes no sense to me at all, but that's fine, we can disagree on this.

What is a fact though is that because of these ridiculous upgrade costs, I will not be buying an upgrade. With a more reasonable fee, I would.



I am going to try and explain my point again.

You personally are going from 5 - 6 - 7!

Not everyone is.

It is priced based on stepping stones.

Going from 0 - 7 is one price.

Going from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 to 6 to 7 is going to be more, just as going from 5 to 6 to 7 is more.

[Braegan]

The part where you assume a coorporation might have any non profit motive at all is probably where you're going wrong.

Pretty much.

A business attempting to make a profit! In other news: Water has been found to be proven wet!

[Knight_slayer]

Pretty much.

A business attempting to make a profit! In other news: Water has been found to be proven wet!

Yes, making a profit is the number 1 priority in any business, I get that. Its how Turbine goes about making it that frustrates the hell out of me. They could create something new and exciting for the players which would in turn sell more subs (like epic reincarnation) but this would take some effort and hard work. Or just sell xp and loot straight from the store and we can all go back to lunch break because this option takes no effort or hard work.

[Qhualor]

Kinda sad. All those tomes I got from TOEE now seem less of a prize. Oh well. Still costs quite a bit though. Of course this could be seen a mile away. When you are running an FTP model money has to come from somewhere. Tomes are probably a reliable cash cow (I don't know what actual numbers are, just guessing). It allows a ptw solution for new players and brings some money in. I guess for long time players it's a bit of a BOHICA situation :).

Turbine has been doing this since +5 tomes were put in the store. it should be assumed that they will continue to do that, although i don't see stat tomes going any higher than +8. when we found out that +7 tomes could be found in TOEE, some of us asked to not put +7 tomes in the store because it was good incentive to run the content. there had to be another reason to run TOEE on elite considering the loot didn't go over well with some players and the xp/min crowd complained about the length of the quest. honestly not surprised +7 tomes are in the store, even just for 2 days. to me, its Turbine going for the obvious cash cow again and it would seem the imagineers are out of fluff ideas to sell in the store. tinfoil hat or not, i do firmly believe tome drop rates are purposely low so people will buy them and easy money for Turbine. Turbine has a habit of killing off incentives and its not always the P2W route.

[Braegan]

Turbine has been doing this since +5 tomes were put in the store. it should be assumed that they will continue to do that, although i don't see stat tomes going any higher than +8. when we found out that +7 tomes could be found in TOEE, some of us asked to not put +7 tomes in the store because it was good incentive to run the content. there had to be another reason to run TOEE on elite considering the loot didn't go over well with some players and the xp/min crowd complained about the length of the quest. honestly not surprised +7 tomes are in the store, even just for 2 days. to me, its Turbine going for the obvious cash cow again and it would seem the imagineers are out of fluff ideas to sell in the store. tinfoil hat or not, i do firmly believe tome drop rates are purposely low so people will buy them and easy money for Turbine. Turbine has a habit of killing off incentives and its not always the P2W route.

Unless they break the progression going we won't go higher than +7.

+7 = ML 27.
+8 = ML 31.

[Qaliya]

You personally are going from 5 - 6 - 7!


I was giving an example of going just 5 to 6 or 6 to 7.

Let's say that last week I was +5 and shelled out 4000 TP to get to +6.

This week they put +7 in the store. I would now have to spend ANOTHER 4300 TP to get +7. Even though someone who had NO stat bumps at all would pay 5400.

Everyone who already has +6 either spent a good chunk of money on it or got it the hard way in-game. Forcing them to spend 80% of the cost of a non-upgrade tome is IMO wrong. Feel free to disagree, but don't assume that my seeing it differently is due to inferior math skills.

[Braegan]

I was giving an example of going just 5 to 6 or 6 to 7.

Let's say that last week I was +5 and shelled out 4000 TP to get to +6.

This week they put +7 in the store. I would now have to spend ANOTHER 4300 TP to get +7. Even though someone who had NO stat bumps at all would pay 5400.

Everyone who already has +6 either spent a good chunk of money on it or got it the hard way in-game. Forcing them to spend 80% of the cost of a non-upgrade tome is IMO wrong. Feel free to disagree, but don't assume that my seeing it differently is due to inferior math skills.



You are seeing it in stepping stones personally, because it affects you personally. And hey I understand that, I sometimes get miffed at things that affect me. But you are mistaken here due to it affecting you personally. I explained already those closer to the end spectrum would see less savings and those on the lower end of the spectrum would see more savings. Of course this is entirely relative to the fact that you feel you need a supreme + all stats tome, which is silly to me anyways...but I digress.

Either way the pricing makes mathematical, business sense.

[JOTMON]

Here's my money.. I can regret it in the morning..

http://24.media.tumblr.com/a6c5d02f69e2053ee5bae9a61889675b/tumblr_mqzhsuHPsT1r7owkto1_400.gif

[Lemdog]

The part where you assume a coorporation might have any non profit motive at all is probably where you're going wrong.

Gonna agree with Knight_slayer here on the fact that i do understand that most businesses #1 priority is money, but i just simply abhor the way they are currently going about making the money.

[Qaliya]

You are seeing it in stepping stones personally, because it affects you personally.

I see it in "stepping stones" because they offer upgrades, which are inherently "stepping stones". And if they offer upgrades, they should be reasonably priced, as some other upgrades in the store are.

Charging 80% of the cost of a +7 item to upgrade from +6 is not a reasonable price. That is my opinion, not a fact subject to debate, and certainly one that will not be changed by being insulted. (Few opinions ever are.)

[PermaBanned]

It's lazy, cheap, and unnecessary. ... Not unexpected, just disappointing.
Except for the "cheap" part, the quoted segments generally sums up my opinion of buying tomes to begin with. What I find truly amusing in this thread is that there seems to be three basic opinions being expressed:

• It's a terrible thing that they're in the store at all.

• It's a terrible thing that they cost so much.

• It's a terrible thing that I "wasted my time" playing for them when I could've waited and just paid for them.

Lolz all around :D

[Impaqt]

Just in case it isnt clear....

characters survive every day without buying tomes from the DDO Store. Thrive even.

If you feel a tome is too expensive, then you can simply not buy it.

[cyreme]

Except for the "cheap" part, the quoted segments generally sums up my opinion of buying tomes to begin with. What I find truly amusing in this thread is that there seems to be three basic opinions being expressed:

• It's a terrible thing that they're in the store at all.

• It's a terrible thing that they cost so much.

• It's a terrible thing that I "wasted my time" playing for them when I could've waited and just paid for them.

Lolz all around :D

Glad you are entertained :). Just a small gap in logic here - three opinions you mentioned are not necessarily expressed by the same person. Makes a tiny bit of difference.

[Portalcat]

The problem is less that +7 tomes are available in the store and more that the main thing people are currently chasing at endgame is available in the store. If we had something else meaningful to grind for, people wouldn't care that much.

Mythic items might someday be that thing, but they aren't right now. It doesn't help that you can't chase mythic raid items when the raid lagwipes on any difficulty above EN. It also doesn't help that there's only one raid that drops mythic items, and the kind of people who would grind for mythics are decked out in raid gear from many other raids as well.

[Rogann]

It makes me laugh when people make these threads. Sadly the thing they QQ about is the thing keeping DDO alive.


http://i.imgur.com/ooVvkYc.png

[Novalis]

So now I get to spend my TP purchased from the last sale or hard earned by favor grind on a +7 tome that was supposed to drop more often than 4 times. That is how many times +7 tomes have dropped on the server since the release of ToEE. And I get to enjoy being one stat stronger while swinging away at nothing, heal spells burned with no effect, being frozen in place at *insert lag location here* and somehow all this is going to make DDO a better place. (When things get fixed of course.)

What is this "sale" supposed to be a workaround for now? Perhaps the stacks of 3 but no more than 5 mysterious remnants we were picking up in EE content for the last week? Or maybe the extra point will reduce the bandwith warlocks are using! I wasn't around for the 'duping bug' but now I see what they were doing wasn't malicious. Just think of the countless hours wasted by a player due to any of the justified levels of failures because of lag, broken mechanics, etc... People are just doing what they can to stay ahead of the next series of bugs, incoming lag-storms & so on.

I feel for our fellow poster Chai because in my previous (remaining) posts I made similar observations that ended up eerily prophetic as well. Doesn't mean we are happy when this happens. We hope to be wrong. But how many times do we need to be told we are wrong, our playstyle is wrong, our expectations are wrong, everything and the color of our shoelaces are wrong before people even look at the fundamental issues first? Don't get distracted by the shiny things. They're only shiny because everything around you is crumbling to dust.

[Chai]

Ahh it's the good old Chai post where he claims someone unspecified said something, and claims those people now acknowledge/surely see his wisdom and then claims some other thing he can't possible know was caused by his premise. Chai do you really not see your pattern with these posts now that I've pointed out about 13 or 14 of them? I think we need a name for this kind of post... I just can't come up with anything suitably descriptive.

Your sage wisdom in being able to extrapolate the incredibly obvious from what they already sell in the store knows no... it's... it's not... yeah no one finds this remarkable but you. Link us to posts where people say that +2, +3 and +4 tomes in the store SURELY wont possibly lead to +5 tomes in the store. Once again you're just making up stuff so you can pat yourself on the back over imaginary victories.

Anyone who didn't see this coming is blind. Anyone who sees it as a sign of the DDOpoclypse is just as wrong as they were when they did the same hand wringing over +4 tomes, the same over +5 tomes and of course the same thing over +6 tomes.

Anyway you all enjoy your tut tuting and cluck clucking your feigned shock and feigned outrage got to have something to do on the forums in mid summer amiright?

Protip: at some point there will be a +8 tome ML30 and it will *closes eyes and does some fake phychic mumbojumbo* it WILL APEAR IN THE STORE! *gasp* *swoon*

If youre attempting to make a point about how far this has gone being something that has NOT hurt the game in the long run (which we are now experiencing), you are not being very convincing, due to the fact that the far less people around to hear your rebuttal each time this discussion rolls around, is empirical evidence to the contrary, as I clearly pointed out. No need to take my word for it. Read the 2010 era threads where this discussion took place, view how many of those folks denied this would happen, and take note of how many of them you see around nowdays.

[blerkington]

If youre attempting to make a point about how far this has gone being something that has NOT hurt the game in the long run (which we are now experiencing), you are not being very convincing, due to the fact that the far less people around to hear your rebuttal each time this discussion rolls around, is empirical evidence to the contrary, as I clearly pointed out. No need to take my word for it. Read the 2010 era threads where this discussion took place, view how many of those folks denied this would happen, and take note of how many of them you see around nowdays.

Hi,

This sounds to me very much like you're saying those people didn't leave (and wouldn't have left) for any other reason.

I'm not over the moon about +7 tomes being in store, but there are many reasons why people might leave the game in a five year period.

Thanks.

[Chai]

Hi,

This sounds to me very much like you're saying those people didn't leave (and wouldn't have left) for any other reason.

I'm not over the moon about +7 tomes being in store, but there are many reasons why people might leave the game in a five year period.

Thanks.

Like nothing to do because 95% of progress can be bought straight cash.

VH1 DDO edition, the anti slippery slope crowd, where are they now?

[PermaBanned]

If youre attempting to make a point about how far this has gone being something that has NOT hurt the game in the long run...I missed the part where he said that. If you're referring to that comment about how this is no more of a sign for the DDOApocolyps than +4 & 5 tomes were, he's right - unless you're actually going to postulate that keeping tomes out of the store would've meant less attrition? That would be a knee-slapper ^^

[Eth]

To soon turbine. To soon.

[blerkington]

Like nothing to do because 95% of progress can be bought straight cash.

VH1 DDO edition, the anti slippery slope crowd, where are they now?

Hi,

This isn't really any sort of answer at all.

Some of them may have left because they were unhappy with what is sold in the store, some of them for entirely different reasons.

You have a theory, but no data to support your statements. It's just hot air until you can provide some sort of proof.

Thanks.

[Chai]

I missed the part where he said that. If you're referring to that comment about how this is no more of a sign for the DDOApocolyps than +4 & 5 tomes were, he's right - unless you're actually going to postulate that keeping tomes out of the store would've meant less attrition? That would be a knee-slapper ^^

Slap the knee all you want, that would be the correct premise.

Not designing the game around incentivizing buying your way past hilariously low drop rates creates a fun game people continue to want to play. The combination of selling most progress outright combined with nothing to do when most of that maxed out character is bought straight cash, causes peoples game experience to stagnate, and they go find something else to do. Most people who railed and railed against me saying this then, are doing just what I stated they would be doing now, something else.

[Chai]

Hi,

This isn't really any sort of answer at all.

Some of them may have left because they were unhappy with what is sold in the store, some of them for entirely different reasons.

You have a theory, but no data to support your statements. It's just hot air until you can provide some sort of proof.

Thanks.

Oh sure it is, just maybe not one you agree with. But it is the correct answer nonetheless.

The undeniable fact is they are gone, because doing something else became more attractive than playing DDO, in their disposable time.

I also informed you where you can find that proof. It doesn't bother me if that homework gets done or not, but continually asking for whats right there one search and one click away, isn't going to make it automatically appear.

[morkahn82]

so sad.

I am an amateur player, got a completionist character and some multi-tr toons. my average ability score from tomes is between 3 and 4, with some very few occasional +5s. It is sad that you put high level tomes in store. But it is just embarrasing that you put the highest! level tomes in store. And no, I will not buy a single tome.

But please continue to increase the power gap between players and cheaters and extend the p2w portfolio. Empty servers are the consequence. Nobody wants to be part of a cheatfest besides the cheaters.

It could be confused from my writing style that I actually blame the players, but actually I just blame the company.

[blerkington]

The undeniable fact is they are gone, because doing something else became more attractive than playing DDO, in their disposable time.

Hi,

Yes, player numbers have gone down. I certainly won't argue that. Once again, that doesn't prove your claim about the reasons for the decline.

Can you really not think of any other reasons people might stop playing DDO? This game has a whole bunch of other things about it which might make people want to stop playing it, and besides that there's all the real life stuff like getting a more demanding job, having kids, etc. Some of them may have just run out of stuff to do in game.

Without any information about why people stopped playing, no-one, not even you, is in any position to make definite statements about whether or not the direction the store is taking is a significant factor in driving people away.

Thanks.

[Chai]

Hi,

Yes, player numbers have gone down. I certainly won't argue that. Once again, that doesn't prove your claim about the reasons for the decline.

Can you really not think of any other reasons people might stop playing DDO? This game has a whole bunch of other things about it which might make people want to stop playing it, and besides that there's all the real life stuff like getting a more demanding job, having kids, etc. Some of them may have just run out of stuff to do in game.

Without any information about why people stopped playing, no-one, not even you, is in any position to make definite statements about whether or not the direction the store is taking is a significant factor in driving people away.

Thanks.

It absolutely proves what you just quoted - the game became less attractive to them than doing something else did. That's why attrition occurs.

Your assumptions that absence of evidence = evidence of absence are incorrect. Again, I already informed you where you can find the evidence. The assumption that the cause has to be something else and cannot possibly be the combination of ability to mostly buy ones way to max character power plus nothing to do once they have max character power is also incorrect. That evidence also exists on these very forums. How long have paying customers been complaining about lack of endgame now? What do you think min maxers and end gamers pay for exactly? Character power.

[blerkington]

It absolutely proves what you just quoted - the game became less attractive to them than doing something else did. That's why attrition occurs.

Your assumptions that absence of evidence = evidence of absence are incorrect. Again, I already informed you where you can find the evidence. The assumption that the cause has to be something else and cannot possibly be the combination of ability to mostly buy ones way to max character power plus nothing to do once they have max character power is also incorrect. That evidence also exists on these very forums. How long have paying customers been complaining about lack of endgame now? What do you think min maxers and end gamers pay for exactly?

Hi,

Once again logic is taking a holiday because your need to be right is more important than the need to find out what is true.

I'm not disputing that people have left the game. However, I don't think any amount of forum searching will turn up a list of reasons why those people have left the game. Feel free to prove me wrong by citing one. But the old 'I've already proved this somewhere else' gambit is wearing a little thin; if you want to claim you've proved something, you need to at least cite where this has occurred.

I haven't at any point claimed the reason for those players' departures has to be something else, so please stop mischaracterising my position. What I'm saying is neither you nor I know what those reasons are.

There are likely to be a number of factors, which could include disgust with what's on sale in the store, but could also include others too. Now you may feel comfortable with assuming that your explanation is obviously right, despite the lack of any supporting evidence whatsoever, but I prefer to take a more rational approach.

Thanks.

[Chai]

Hi,

Once again logic is taking a holiday because your need to be right is more important than the need to find out what is true.

I'm not disputing that people have left the game. However, I don't think any amount of forum searching will turn up a list of reasons why those people have left the game. Feel free to prove me wrong by citing one. But the old 'I've already proved this somewhere else' gambit is wearing a little thin; if you want to claim you've proved something, you need to at least cite where this has occurred.

I haven't at any point claimed the reason for those players' departures has to be something else, so please stop mischaracterising my position. What I'm saying is neither you nor I know what those reasons are.

There are likely to be a number of factors, which could include disgust with what's on sale in the store, but could also include others too. Now you may feel comfortable with assuming that your explanation is obviously right, despite the lack of any supporting evidence whatsoever, but I prefer to take a more rational approach.

Thanks.

Logic didn't take a holiday, most of the players of the game have. Due to what you quoted, playing the game became less attractive than doing something else.

[PermaBanned]

The combination of selling most progress outright combined with nothing to do when most of that maxed out character...Cordo should grant you the forum title of Capt. Tangent.

Original subject: +7 Tomes in store.
Related tangent: People leave the game because of this (doubtful, especially in any sort of large #s).

Now we're up to: Do to a combination of factors, including but not limited to selling multiple forms of character advancement (so no longer just talking about selling tomes, or even just selling power; but also a lack of things to do with power which would mean regardless of wether it was bought or acquired through play) people have left the game because they found something more interesting to do - as if that somehow proves you right about Tomes...

Grats on some of your finest ridiculousness.

[Eth]

And also, you guys from pc, could you not like intervene

It's not like they asked for our opinion on this matter. I was quite surprised, looking at the news in the launcher yesterday.

[Vellrad]

The part where you assume a coorporation might have any non profit motive at all is probably where you're going wrong.

I would like corporation to think long term, but its not gonna happen, because turbine must make quarterly money to satisfy guy from WB who oversees games, who must make quarterly money to satisfy another guy from WB who oversees something else, and is oversaw by other WB guy that must meet his quarterly quota.
This business model is doomed to failure in the longer run, but no one cares, because they got their quick money.

[Deadlock]

Kinda sad. All those tomes I got from TOEE now seem less of a prize.

Just think on the amount of TP you've saved by actually questing.

If we see the same amount of outrage every time XP boxes go in the store then I could get behind this thread.

But as it is, once people start viewing XP boxes as acceptable and trot out the same tired excuses for why they're a good thing then all bets are off.

Personally I'd be more concerned about XP boxes shortening the longevity of the game for people than +7 tomes going in the store. I'm not impressed enough by ToEE to consider it worth farming for tomes.

[Deadlock]

The release of +6 tomes came so quickly after the release of +5s that I didn't buy them at the time, knowing that +7s would be here soon. And here we are. Think I'll just wait for +8s to come out. Should be 3 or 4 months.

Would require level 31 at the standard progression rate :)

[PermaBanned]

And also, you guys from pc, could you not like intervene or give advice...Had they asked for our advice on this we would've given it - but it's not like we have some sort of veto power as the congress does vs the president.

[alvarego]

https://www.ddo.com/en/store



All I have to say about that.

Check this out and replace +4 with +7:

You can't handle the truth! (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/402014-You-can-t-handle-the-truth!)

[Algreg]

who can be surprised by this? No strong feelings from me, whatever. I don´t understand the panic in the p2w! and the complete lack of it in the powercreep department though. This game just keeps adding and adding character power on us, sure, +6 => +7 is nothing, but at some point in the not so distant past +4 on all abilities was considered extraordinary. So, what´s next, are +11 ability items already considered twink gear? When will +30 ability items be the norm? this is all a fast-spiraling whirlwind of madness.

[Deadlock]

Having caught up with all posts now, the issue for me isn't that +7 tomes in the store means that ToEE isn't going to be farmed to death.

I think with a decent make-over and some new mechanics introduced ToEE could be such a great quest that it wouldn't be a chore to farm. But as it is, in it's current format, I just find it tedious, but not unfixable.

So for me, it's not that this means I won't be farming ToEE because I won't be doing that anyway. The bigger problem is that assuming +6 to +7 upgrade tomes or outright +7 tomes are a future loot option, by putting them in the store you're removing one motivation for running future content. Now hopefully the future content will have a fun factor and other features that will make people want to run it. But if +7 tomes are now available in the store (and don't kid yourself that it's for 2 days only and never to be repeated ...) then that's one less reason to run the new stuff.

[Deadlock]

The 2014 one did apsolutely nothing to improve the game, this years is going the same direction.

Bards and paladins would absolutely disagree with you. But hey, feel free to foam at the mouth for my amusement.

[alvarego]

Having caught up with all posts now, the issue for me isn't that +7 tomes in the store means that ToEE isn't going to be farmed to death.

I think with a decent make-over and some new mechanics introduced ToEE could be such a great quest that it wouldn't be a chore to farm. But as it is, in it's current format, I just find it tedious, but not unfixable.

So for me, it's not that this means I won't be farming ToEE because I won't be doing that anyway. The bigger problem is that assuming +6 to +7 upgrade tomes or outright +7 tomes are a future loot option, by putting them in the store you're removing one motivation for running future content. Now hopefully the future content will have a fun factor and other features that will make people want to run it. But if +7 tomes are now available in the store (and don't kid yourself that it's for 2 days only and never to be repeated ...) then that's one less reason to run the new stuff.

Sounds like the sad story of dupping and thunderforged ... yeah

[slarden]

Having caught up with all posts now, the issue for me isn't that +7 tomes in the store means that ToEE isn't going to be farmed to death.

I think with a decent make-over and some new mechanics introduced ToEE could be such a great quest that it wouldn't be a chore to farm. But as it is, in it's current format, I just find it tedious, but not unfixable.

So for me, it's not that this means I won't be farming ToEE because I won't be doing that anyway. The bigger problem is that assuming +6 to +7 upgrade tomes or outright +7 tomes are a future loot option, by putting them in the store you're removing one motivation for running future content. Now hopefully the future content will have a fun factor and other features that will make people want to run it. But if +7 tomes are now available in the store (and don't kid yourself that it's for 2 days only and never to be repeated ...) then that's one less reason to run the new stuff.

I don't run anything for tomes the drop rates are so low. when I see a +7 tome in the chest I am pleasantly surprised and happy to see it.

I assume most people are running TOEE for the named items or mats. The easiest way to farm for +7 tomes is by getting a part-time job at McDonalds and serving up burgers and fries for a few weekends.

[Braegan]

I see it in "stepping stones" because they offer upgrades, which are inherently "stepping stones". And if they offer upgrades, they should be reasonably priced, as some other upgrades in the store are.

Charging 80% of the cost of a +7 item to upgrade from +6 is not a reasonable price. That is my opinion, not a fact subject to debate, and certainly one that will not be changed by being insulted. (Few opinions ever are.)

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

You are right on one point. Your posts didn't quite deserve the tone I responded to you with, my bad. Edited previous posts to sound less like a jerk towards you.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Would require level 31 at the standard progression rate :)

Do you think that would stop them from releasing them?

Or would they would lower the min level of all tomes to squeeze them in?

Maybe we will start to see +1 exceptional inherent stat tomes.

[Vellrad]

Do you think that would stop them from releasing them?

Or would they would lower the min level of all tomes to squeeze them in?

Maybe we will start to see +1 exceptional inherent stat tomes.

New in DDO Store:
Permanent ability potions!
Provides inherent alchemical bonus to stats that persists through reincarnation!
+1 potion: 1000 TP, +2, 2000, upgrade +1 to +2 1,995 TP.

Arcane tatoos:
Provides exceptional inherent bonuses to:
Ability scores (+1 for 1000TP)
Hit points (1/level for 1000TP)
Spellpoints (5/level for 1000TP)
Action points (4 for 5000TP)
Extra feat slot (Speak with fred to fill it for 10000TP)
Tatoos persists through TR.

Ear piercing: pierce your ears for 1000 TP each, or get a bundle of both ears for 1750TP to unlock additional inventory slots!
Earrings are items with ml 1 and +10 jewelery (new type) bonus to selected ability score, and all possible augment slots. Each earring can be purchased for 100,000 mysterious remnants OR 100,000 commendations of valor or 800TP.

[Chai]

Cordo should grant you the forum title of Capt. Tangent.

Original subject: +7 Tomes in store.
Related tangent: People leave the game because of this (doubtful, especially in any sort of large #s).

Now we're up to: Do to a combination of factors, including but not limited to selling multiple forms of character advancement (so no longer just talking about selling tomes, or even just selling power; but also a lack of things to do with power which would mean regardless of wether it was bought or acquired through play) people have left the game because they found something more interesting to do - as if that somehow proves you right about Tomes...

Grats on some of your finest ridiculousness.

Labeled ridiculous in a pattern based fashion only because of lack of refutation of the actual position, which indicates it is more solid each time someone chooses to attempt jabs outside of addressing the actual position. Its so plain, simple, and easy to see, for anyone being objective, that allowing people to rush past everything else to an anemic endgame is a recipe for heavier headcount attrition.

[Wipey]

In the long run, it would be much better if people would buy more packs, grouped more and do different content.
Incentives to raid, do higher difficulties or "work" together. Store income would be mostly from cosmetics, convenience items and such.

But no, Turbine opted for quick cash cow milking again, unable to come up with anything more interesting.
One less reason to do new raid or Toee. Really, one more stat is nothing in comparison to insane power creep last 8 months, but it hurts the game in the long run imo.
It's not like there's influx of new players or servers booming with activity.
Quite the opposite.

[Qaliya]

Braegan, thanks, that was very good of you. (Not sarcastic.)

I play one character and serial-TR since I quickly get tired of playing one class and want to play another. Each bump in stat tomes requires 4 more levels to get, making it less valuable than the one before. So I will likely just stick with my +5 and be done with it. Yet if they offered upgrades for, say, 2 to 4 times the differential in cost between full tomes, instead of 13x, I might be tempted.

I think the comments in this thread about other things in the store also make sense. Once Turbine made "Otto's boxes" and raid bypass timers, it was hard to really take complaints about any other items being too "P2W". I especially agree that raid bypass timers likely kill end-game raiding much faster than store tomes.

ETA: Chai, two things happening at the same time does not mean that one always caused the other. There are a multitude of reasons why this game is less popular than it was years ago.

[Paleus]

Isn't this just a ritual at this point? Turbine releases in-game a new highest tome. Sometime thereafter it appears in the store for a "limited time." People post shocked threads that it happened...again. Other people post quips of "told you so." A few updates from now we can start the cycle of feigned surprise all over again.

At this point we should probably just save some time and copy this thread and do a FindReplace for "+7 to +8" set a timer for next year and automate the repost.

[Eth]

Isn't this just a ritual at this point? Turbine releases in-game a new highest tome. Sometime thereafter it appears in the store for a "limited time."

Actually, +5 and +6 tomes where available in store before they were available as ingame drops.

+7 turned the system around again.

[FestusHood]

Slap the knee all you want, that would be the correct premise.

Not designing the game around incentivizing buying your way past hilariously low drop rates creates a fun game people continue to want to play. The combination of selling most progress outright combined with nothing to do when most of that maxed out character is bought straight cash, causes peoples game experience to stagnate, and they go find something else to do. Most people who railed and railed against me saying this then, are doing just what I stated they would be doing now, something else.

But if the drop rates were not hilariously low, people would simply have ground all of the tomes they wanted out of the game, and still be in the same situation of not having them to pursue. The main difference would be that turbine would have gotten no money from it.

How long have they been selling tomes in the store? During that period, for how long were the highest level tomes typically available only in game? They have certainly been selling them since before Motu.

I began playing this game with the knowledge that the game was a business, and that the ulterior motive in pretty much everything they did was to make money. I was thankful that this particular game allowed an avenue to get pretty much anything that could be gotten in the game for free. To the idea that it's easier for somebody to just buy something from the store than it is to grind it for free out of the game, my only thought is 'duh'. I doubt any business has ever succeeded by making getting something for free genuinely more practical than paying for it.

For myself, i have never bought a tome from the store. The highest level of tome on any of my characters is +5. Some of those tomes i bought from the astral shard auction house. That didn't make them any less meaningful to me compared to the ones that i actually pulled out of chests.

[Lonnbeimnech]

But if the drop rates were not hilariously low, people would simply have ground all of the tomes they wanted out of the game, and still be in the same situation of not having them to pursue. The main difference would be that turbine would have gotten no money from it.

How long have they been selling tomes in the store? During that period, for how long were the highest level tomes typically available only in game? They have certainly been selling them since before Motu.

I began playing this game with the knowledge that the game was a business, and that the ulterior motive in pretty much everything they did was to make money. I was thankful that this particular game allowed an avenue to get pretty much anything that could be gotten in the game for free. To the idea that it's easier for somebody to just buy something from the store than it is to grind it for free out of the game, my only thought is 'duh'. I doubt any business has ever succeeded by making getting something for free genuinely more practical than paying for it.

For myself, i have never bought a tome from the store. The highest level of tome on any of my characters is +5. Some of those tomes i bought from the astral shard auction house. That didn't make them any less meaningful to me compared to the ones that i actually pulled out of chests.

Before motu the highest tomes sold in the store were +2.

+2 were available as rare drops from random high level chests.
+3 were available as rare raid loot from reaver's fate, hox, vod, and tod. and from the 20th list of shroud.
and +4 was very rare drops from epic vault of night and tower of despair and the 20th completion list of tower of despair only.

and for a long time they did not persist through TRing.

[PermaBanned]

Labeled ridiculous in a pattern based fashion only because of lack of refutation of the actual position, which indicates it is more solid each time someone chooses to attempt jabs outside of addressing the actual position. Its so plain, simple, and easy to see, for anyone being objective, that allowing people to rush past everything else to an anemic endgame is a recipe for heavier headcount attrition.Just as it is plain, simple and easy to see that you're adding jibber jabber about many things which are not Tomes to support your initial claim that Tomes in the store are driving attrition. While Tomes in the store may indeed be a contributing factor as a mere portion of the character advancement available for sale - they are not likely in and of themselves a strong driving force of attrition. The lack of things to do for those fully powered characters are another subject entirely, thus also not supporting of your initial position that Tome sales are driving attrition.

The subject here (see thread title) is - or at least started out as - "+7 Tomes in the store." Trying to tie in all forms of advancement for sale + lack of things to do with said advancement is simply extraneous and makes your initial position look even weaker than it was because in order to support that position you needed to involve all these evermore loosely related tangents - especially humorous is the inclusion of the lack of things for these top powered characters to do, as that is as valid of a reason for attrition for those who bought no power as it is for those that bought as much as they could.

The subject is +7 Tomes in the Store. If you want to claim that's driving attrition by it's own merits, try to do so without involving a combination of other factors - otherwise you're only (at best) claiming/"proving" that a combination of factors is driving attrition; a fact neither disputed nor belonging in a "Tomes in the Store" discussion.

[Chai]

But if the drop rates were not hilariously low, people would simply have ground all of the tomes they wanted out of the game, and still be in the same situation of not having them to pursue. The main difference would be that turbine would have gotten no money from it.

But they would be PLAYING THE GAME while doing so. :p


How long have they been selling tomes in the store? During that period, for how long were the highest level tomes typically available only in game? They have certainly been selling them since before Motu.

Yep, pretty much the entire time. There was even a time where the highest was ONLY available in the store, albeit a short period of time.


I began playing this game with the knowledge that the game was a business, and that the ulterior motive in pretty much everything they did was to make money. I was thankful that this particular game allowed an avenue to get pretty much anything that could be gotten in the game for free. To the idea that it's easier for somebody to just buy something from the store than it is to grind it for free out of the game, my only thought is 'duh'. I doubt any business has ever succeeded by making getting something for free genuinely more practical than paying for it.

But lots of MMOs succeed by selling things that don't inflate character power in the store and people play the game to gain character power. Once character power is sold, it becomes a positive number on a spreadsheet, and that means constantly having to re-up to a higher level of character power sold each time the specific market audience who buys character power becomes saturated with the old level of character power, just to keep that positive number on the spreadsheet.


For myself, i have never bought a tome from the store. The highest level of tome on any of my characters is +5. Some of those tomes i bought from the astral shard auction house. That didn't make them any less meaningful to me compared to the ones that i actually pulled out of chests.

My position isn't personal in nature where tomes would be "more meaningful" if I didn't buy them or something like that. The position is looking at things from a business perspective. To me its not about who buys them and who doesn't. Its about allowing people to buy their way past almost everything which constitutes playing the game, then expecting to keep people hanging around for any significant period of time afterward. Turbine already struggles with developing content at any rate that remotely approaches the rate that players can defeat the same content and get what they want out of it. Allowing what they want out of it to simply be bought worsens the already hard to deal with issue of keeping players engaged for the periods of time between content updates. Thus, the heavier attrition rate, now happening mere weeks after each update.

[Gauthaag]

heh, its pretty simple - new kid gets into game and mostly meet all those vets with varios tomes already applied, looks at build section to see all those builds with +tomes required and then enters store and wow - there s tome better than anything they talked about - CACHIIING! its simply targeted at newer players and to milk them faster then they leave

[Chai]

Just as it is plain, simple and easy to see that you're adding jibber jabber about many things which are not Tomes to support your initial claim that Tomes in the store are driving attrition. While Tomes in the store may indeed be a contributing factor as a mere portion of the character advancement available for sale - they are not likely in and of themselves a strong driving force of attrition. The lack of things to do for those fully powered characters are another subject entirely, thus also not supporting of your initial position that Tome sales are driving attrition.

The subject here (see thread title) is - or at least started out as - "+7 Tomes in the store." Trying to tie in all forms of advancement for sale + lack of things to do with said advancement is simply extraneous and makes your initial position look even weaker than it was because in order to support that position you needed to involve all these evermore loosely related tangents - especially humorous is the inclusion of the lack of things for these top powered characters to do, as that is as valid of a reason for attrition for those who bought no power as it is for those that bought as much as they could.

The subject is +7 Tomes in the Store. If you want to claim that's driving attrition by it's own merits, try to do so without involving a combination of other factors - otherwise you're only (at best) claiming/"proving" that a combination of factors is driving attrition; a fact neither disputed nor belonging in a "Tomes in the Store" discussion.

Attempts to control what can and cannot be talked about is another indication that the point made cannot be addressed and refuted. Thanks again for the support.

Those viewing the situation with objectivity understand that when a topic is part of a cause or part of a symptom of another issue, it can be discussed in relation to that issue without being rules lawyered as off topic.

[FestusHood]

I've played many video games in my life. Some of them i quit playing before i had reached goals that once seemed important, and many others i continued to play after i had done everything that could be done in them.

The reason i have ever quit playing any game, or quit doing any activity for that matter, comes down to one thing. The actual activity of doing it stopped engaging me, for whatever reason. I suspect that's the reason the vast majority of people have stopped playing this game, not any specific event like this.

[zerit2002]

This is a bit off-topic, but is there a way to see what tomes a toon has at any level?
Or maybe the store will only make the tomes avaliable that the toon can actually use. Does it work like that?
For example, if I have a +4 con tome the store will not let me buy a +3 con tome.

[Cantor]

This is a bit off-topic, but is there a way to see what tomes a toon has at any level?
Or maybe the store will only make the tomes avaliable that the toon can actually use. Does it work like that?
For example, if I have a +4 con tome the store will not let me buy a +3 con tome.

The store is no help telling here. B/c it only lists it for you if you are high enough to use it anyway, so you have to bypass the filter to buy it.

[Gauthaag]

This is a bit off-topic, but is there a way to see what tomes a toon has at any level?
Or maybe the store will only make the tomes avaliable that the toon can actually use. Does it work like that?
For example, if I have a +4 con tome the store will not let me buy a +3 con tome.

mouseover over the number at proper attribute at char sheet and u ll see the breakup. if there s inherit bonus it means tome of that strength is applied

[PermaBanned]

Attempts to control what can and cannot be talked about is another indication that the point made cannot be addressed and refuted. Thanks again for the support.

Those viewing the situation with objectivity understand that when a topic is part of a cause or part of a symptom of another issue, it can be discussed in relation to that issue without being rules lawyered as off topic.
So it is your intention to fully hijack a thread about "+7 Tomes in the Store" as an opportunity to tout your rightness about attrition being caused by - hold on to your hat - a combination of factors including but not limited to character power and advancement for sale...

Aye-yie, Captian!

[Chai]

I've played many video games in my life. Some of them i quit playing before i had reached goals that once seemed important, and many others i continued to play after i had done everything that could be done in them.

The reason i have ever quit playing any game, or quit doing any activity for that matter, comes down to one thing. The actual activity of doing it stopped engaging me, for whatever reason. I suspect that's the reason the vast majority of people have stopped playing this game, not any specific event like this.

What is the percentage of people who have character power over the level where the game can engage them on any difficulty setting? Even when we don't know the exact number, it is easy to understand that the percentage is higher due to large amounts of character power able to be purchased, than it would be if DDO sold stuff that had no impact on character power, and players had to earn all character power from playing the game.

[Qaliya]

I've played many video games in my life. Some of them i quit playing before i had reached goals that once seemed important, and many others i continued to play after i had done everything that could be done in them.

The reason i have ever quit playing any game, or quit doing any activity for that matter, comes down to one thing. The actual activity of doing it stopped engaging me, for whatever reason. I suspect that's the reason the vast majority of people have stopped playing this game, not any specific event like this.

I think this nails it pretty well. I think implicit in the complaints here are that there are enormous quantities of people who are grinding raids to get tomes, and that's always seemed to me a perilous assumption.

The major reasons for the attrition here I think are that the game is somewhat old-fashioned, and there isn't much to do once you build your character to be demi-godlike.

There are many games where you can flatly just buy your way to top tier power, some where that is the only way to get it, yet they are enormously popular. The reason is that once you become strong, you compete against other players.

I don't want to see DDO go PvP, because it doesn't work in the D&D concept at all. But inter-player competition is the ONLY way to keep players engaged at the high levels.

DDO has none. So no matter what is done with content or the store, people are going to get bored and leave.

[zerit2002]

mouseover over the number at proper attribute at char sheet and u ll see the breakup. if there s inherit bonus it means tome of that strength is applied

But this only works if the toon is at a certain level for the bonus to be unlocked.

I would like to buy the +7 tomes today but the toon is lvl14 atm.
I have only recently restarted playing after 2 years and have no clue what tomes this toon have.

If I mouseover the stats it will only show me the tome bonuses up to +3, because of the minimum level.

[Blackheartox]

I've played many video games in my life. Some of them i quit playing before i had reached goals that once seemed important, and many others i continued to play after i had done everything that could be done in them.

The reason i have ever quit playing any game, or quit doing any activity for that matter, comes down to one thing. The actual activity of doing it stopped engaging me, for whatever reason. I suspect that's the reason the vast majority of people have stopped playing this game, not any specific event like this.

Most players that were good at tring /knew path or used store items/ have alrdy finished their tr cycle.
Most players that wanted gear, had a chance to get what they wanted with no hard farm involved compared to sss system.
Most players that just wanted to be good at the game and complete ee content just have to tr to a recently reworked class.

So what is left?
No ballance, no progress, few select broken builds, apsolutely no endgame, not even in sight and the "endgame" that some of us considerd farming 7s is was demolished by this store annoucment.

If they want players who love the game and want something to do in it to quit, then they should do it the proper way.
Worst is the mythic bonus, knowing turbine they prolly put the same values as for necro mythic items, so running ee for mythic items is even less productive then anything.
It just hurts to look as a old time player who likes this game what they are doing with it every update.

[Gauthaag]

But this only works if the toon is at a certain level for the bonus to be unlocked.

I would like to buy the +7 tomes today but the toon is lvl14 atm.
I have only recently restarted playing after 2 years and have no clue what tomes this toon have.

If I mouseover the stats it will only show me the tome bonuses up to +3, because of the minimum level.

aah, u re right ..then I guess theres no way, unless u re keeping track

[PermaBanned]

...and the "endgame" that some of us considerd farming 7s is was demolished by this store annoucment.

If they want players who love the game and want something to do in it to quit, then they should do it the proper way.LMFAO! Dude, just 'cause they're in the store doesn't mandate their purchase. I don't want to buy them, so I won't. If you don't want to buy them, then don't. I would prefer to play for them, so I will. If you'd prefer to play for them, then play for them. Putting them in the store - while I disagree with their having done so - doesn't demolish a reason to play for them.

[Blackheartox]

LMFAO! Dude, just 'cause they're in the store doesn't mandate their purchase. I don't want to buy them, so I won't. If you don't want to buy them, then don't. I would prefer to play for them, so I will. If you'd prefer to play for them, then play for them. Putting them in the store - while I disagree with their having done so - doesn't demolish a reason to play for them.

Farming those tomes and selling them was the only proper way that isnt tainted by duping to earn money in ddo ;)

Now, its gone.
Economy = 0 after this hits store.

They refuse to give btaoc gear and what was meant for trade was replicated to such ammounts that trade and economy has been killed in this game.
What can you do when you have a fully maxed char?
Do speed runs?
You get bored from that unless you really have ego issues.

IF there is a single thing a player can do in ddo beside take a break or quite, then please enlighten me, since i have no idea and i picked the quit option for now

[memloch]

Just as there are many reasons to leave the game there are many reasons why people continue to play. For example I have run the Giant Hold quests so many times I could do it almost blind folded. The reason I continue to play is for the social aspect of the game and I just see no reason to leave. It is a fun game. Of course my reasons are different then others.

To state that buying player power is the reason people leave is just a big pile of .....

I have noticed during all my time of lurking on the forums that many people claim doom but a few years later they are still here doing the exact same thing. Playing the game and foretelling DOOM.

You are still here playing because for some reason the game is still providing you with entertainment and enjoyment. Others have left because the joy is gone. Did they all use P2W? Who knows. Would they all have stayed longer? who knows. Would turbine have made more money by not offering so called P2W to the people who left? Again who knows. For anyone on the forum to state that they know these answers is a lot of guess work and within their own twisted logic that they create to support their positions.

So I say who cares really if they are selling Tomes. Your grinding for tomes does not become invalidated by them being offered in the store. You were doing what you considered fun. They did not remove the feelings you got when that Tome dropped for you.

Who cares!

[LightBear]

Farming those tomes and selling them was the only proper way that isnt tainted by duping to earn money in ddo ;)

Now, its gone.
Economy = 0 after this hits store.

They refuse to give btaoc gear and what was meant for trade was replicated to such ammounts that trade and economy has been killed in this game.
What can you do when you have a fully maxed char?
Do speed runs?
You get bored from that unless you really have ego issues.

IF there is a single thing a player can do in ddo beside take a break or quite, then please enlighten me, since i have no idea and i picked the quit option for now

So you're rage quiting because Turbine is making money instead of you selling an item to get some shards?
Or where you selling them for actual dough on ebay?
Either way Turbine is the one who is providing the service.

I totally agree that the item for item trading seems kinda low to me but that could easily mean that I kinda have all that I need/want and things that are "missing" are btcoa (eg raid items).
Personally I'm enjoying the run to some 20th completions and will do one or two etr's when I hit the marks for those, hell maybe I'll do six of them to complete my divine sphere of resurrections.

[legendkilleroll]

I play regulary, mostly epic.

Ive never pulled a 7 and ran EE ToEE quite a bit, never pulled a 6, pulled one 5 from EH necro quest and have few more 5s from mabar/mimic.

No interest whatsoever in buying my attributes but while they are available in store, they are never gonna increase the chance for people like me who want to loot them.

[Silverleafeon]

This is a bit off-topic, but is there a way to see what tomes a toon has at any level?
Or maybe the store will only make the tomes avaliable that the toon can actually use. Does it work like that?
For example, if I have a +4 con tome the store will not let me buy a +3 con tome.

Open Character Sheet.

Right click while hovering over each stat ~ will tell you exactly what you have.


Btw ~ the +6 to +7 upgrade supreme delivers 6 individual upgrade tomes all bound to account.
{Allowing you to split them between your toons if desired.}

[Thrudh]

If youre attempting to make a point about how far this has gone being something that has NOT hurt the game in the long run (which we are now experiencing), you are not being very convincing, due to the fact that the far less people around to hear your rebuttal each time this discussion rolls around, is empirical evidence to the contrary, as I clearly pointed out.

Wow. It's not possible that a 10-year old video game has a declining population for any other reason than the fact that they sell tomes in the store?

[Algreg]

Wow. It's not possible that a 10-year old video game has a declining population for any other reason than the fact that they sell tomes in the store?

no, it is all due to p2w. If they had listened to Chai from the very beginning, we had WoW player numbers now.

[Chai]

Wow. It's not possible that a 10-year old video game has a declining population for any other reason than the fact that they sell tomes in the store?

Its probably better to read the posts in order rather than jump in on one and reply to it. This has been covered. Repeatedly.

[Thrudh]

Check this out and replace +4 with +7:

You can't handle the truth! (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/402014-You-can-t-handle-the-truth!)

Heh, probably my best thread ever...

Read through it a bit... Some people can be seen proclaiming victory via their predictions in the exact same way as they do today.

[Thrudh]

The easiest way to farm for +7 tomes is by getting a part-time job at McDonalds and serving up burgers and fries for a few weekends.

I know, right? I never understood farming... Especially since most people seem to find it tedious, and complain about it.

Why not go mow a lawn for 40 minutes and make some money, instead of farming for 30 hours in a quest that you don't even find fun anymore?

[Thrudh]

Its probably better to read the posts in order rather than jump in on one and reply to it. This has been covered. Repeatedly.

Okay, read them all. Nothing was covered. You did repeat yourself a lot.

Correlation does not equal causation. That's all I'm gong to say.

[Thrudh]

What can you do when you have a fully maxed char?

Start a new character?

Although, really if you do have a FULLY maxed character, yeah then you should quit for a while...

I mean, to get FULLY maxed, you have already played this game 10,000 hours I bet.

And if you got 10,000 hours out of a single video-game, I'd call that game a success.

You don't really expect a single game to keep you entertained for hours a day, every day, for the rest of your life, do you?

[Chai]

Okay, read them all. Nothing was covered. You did repeat yourself a lot.

Correlation does not equal causation. That's all I'm gong to say.

If you truly believe that wasn't covered, you likely didn't read them all.

The difference between correlation and causation doesn't refute my position. In fact, it fully supports it.

[Chai]

Start a new character?

Although, really if you do have a FULLY maxed character, yeah then you should quit for a while...

I mean, to get FULLY maxed, you have already played this game 10,000 hours I bet.

And if you got 10,000 hours out of a single video-game, I'd call that game a success.

You don't really expect a single game to keep you entertained for hours a day, every day, for the rest of your life, do you?

More like buy it straight cash. Thanks for supporting my position even further. This shows the amount of time that can be circumvented by paying money to do so. Once someone paid that money for all that glorious character power, now what? due to a myopic endgame which cannot support that level of character power, they do exactly what you said they likely should do here. Attrite.

[Qaliya]

Once someone paid that money for all that glorious character power, now what?

The very same question and answer apply regardless of how the "glorious character power" is acquired.

The solution is also the same: give powerful characters things to do (other than grinding for more power) and encourage people to enjoy PLAYING the game rather than always trying to 'get somewhere'.

[Chai]

Sometimes I wonder if you say things like this hoping people will insult you so you can report them.

Please note I am not trying to insult you now. I think you are very smart and probably good looking too.

But you are attempting to initiate a personal discussion where none is warranted.

What really provokes people to insult the poster is lack of refutation of the position taken, so they address the poster instead of the post, usually attempting to insinuate that something wrong with the poster is causing them to take the position they are taking in the first place. If refutation of the position itself existed it would be posted instead of the desperate ad hominem jabs at the posters character. If that level of vanilla post provokes people to insult the poster, my recommendation is those doing the insulting should probably refrain from using the rest of the internet, because they would get eaten alive on sites which lack guidelines or places where the guidelines are not enforced.

[Gauthaag]

Farming those tomes and selling them was the only proper way that isnt tainted by duping to earn money in ddo ;)

Now, its gone.
Economy = 0 after this hits store.

They refuse to give btaoc gear and what was meant for trade was replicated to such ammounts that trade and economy has been killed in this game.
What can you do when you have a fully maxed char?
Do speed runs?
You get bored from that unless you really have ego issues.

IF there is a single thing a player can do in ddo beside take a break or quite, then please enlighten me, since i have no idea and i picked the quit option for now

thanks for sharing and go away then

[Chai]

The very same question and answer apply regardless of how the "glorious character power" is acquired.

Not to the same degree, due to the ratio of time it takes to acquire the character in game versus acquiring it through buying it straight cash.


The solution is also the same: give powerful characters things to do (other than grinding for more power) and encourage people to enjoy PLAYING the game rather than always trying to 'get somewhere'.

If that solution existed to a greater degree in DDO, the issue I point out would exist to a lesser degree. It can also be said that if the issue existed to a lesser degree that it currently does, people would have to actually PLAY THE GAME more in order to earn character power.

[slarden]

I know, right? I never understood farming... Especially since most people seem to find it tedious, and complain about it.

Why not go mow a lawn for 40 minutes and make some money, instead of farming for 30 hours in a quest that you don't even find fun anymore?

Just to clarify what I was talking about when I made this statement. I understand Turbine needs to make money and I don't even object to the sale of tomes, but my comment about getting a part-time job was in part meant to describe the current state of the game. Realistically, unless you buy the tomes they are really hard to get.

+7 tomes should be possible as Defiler of the Just 20th rewards for example. I doubt the people that play the game 60 hours per week 52 weeks per year likely aren't even getting many +7 tomes.

[Qaliya]

Not to the same degree, due to the ratio of time it takes to acquire the character in game versus acquiring it through buying it straight cash.


The distinction is implicit to your argument, but it's an assumption that I am not sure is warranted. I am not convinced that it is such a great thing for people to spend hours grinding quests to get items. Sure, it temporarily increases numbers in the game.. for some. But others look at the grind and say "forget that", then end up quitting even sooner than they would with items in the store.

I've played MMOs where massive grinding was necessary to get "end game" gear. And guess what? THEIR forums are filled with complaints also... "too luck dependent", "I have a job, I don't need another one", I can't keep up with my guildies", etc... complete with threats to quit over it.

There are likely many people for whom the ability to buy stuff in the store is PREVENTING them from quitting.



If that solution existed to a greater degree in DDO, the issue I point out would exist to a lesser degree. It can also be said that if the issue existed to a lesser degree that it currently does, people would have to actually PLAY THE GAME more in order to earn character power.

The solution to the hamster wheel has always existed and is always the same: jump off. Especially in a game like this with virtually no interplayer competition, any "need" to have the latest and greatest is self-imposed. That applies however the stuff is acquired.

[Nahiz]

I don´t think +7 tomes at the store are a big issue but a much needed money grab to mantain the game alive. P2W is a somewhat cheap (ha!) income source, but a standard (maybe even a necessity) under Warner Bros. business model. And to be honest, why do you care if other players expend lots of money for tomes? The only argument I can think of against tomes at the store is power creep, but tomes and most stuff sold at the store (even xp stones) explain little of nowadays power creep (new enhancements and prr/mrr account for much more, and those are for free).

That said, I do see a problem with said tomes infinitesimal drop rates. I do see a problem when Turbine prioritices (?) making money selling loot/xp over developing quality content. But I don´t blame Turbine for that, I blame WB. WB has drastically reduced the number of DDO developers/staff and asks (I assume) for high revenue goals. IMO, DDO producer is juggling with fireballs (scarce resources, high profit goals and an old game).

All in all if ToEE is only worth running for +7 tomes, now you have two options instead of one: farm the hell out of it for your tomes (spend time) as before, or buy them at the store (spend money). I don´t like neither and I don´t care: I won´t be running ToEE anytime soon not because I can now buy +7 tomes (which I can´t) but because I find it boring.

More important, the people buying +7 tomes (spending money) are doing much more for DDO than all your... whining. There is no "long term" DDO, the future is now and after almost 10 years DDO is what it is. Enjoy it while it lasts, if you can. If you can´t, just move over. It´s not like +7 tome farmers would be sorely missed. People farming ToEE for +7 tomes are a low % of DDO population and, most probably, account for an even less % of DDO income. The only reason I can think of of a powergamer being valuable to WB is for selling lots of stuff at the shard exchange. But you have to sell A LOT of stuff to make up for someone expending 1000s of TPs at the store.

[Xenich]

The very same question and answer apply regardless of how the "glorious character power" is acquired.

The solution is also the same: give powerful characters things to do (other than grinding for more power) and encourage people to enjoy PLAYING the game rather than always trying to 'get somewhere'.

D&D has always been about that progression of play. From the dragons cash, to that golden chest, that mysterious talking sword, etc... the games systems have always been about power progression. D&D has always been about rule systems, progressing through them, etc...

If you take away all of the character development, progression, etc... in DDO, it becomes a glorified chat room. If you remove the relevance of that character development, what you end up with is Neverwinter (aka an arcade game). This game systems of power progression as it concerns development of characters is the very point of the game. Invalidate that, and it becomes yet another streamlined mainstream MMO (much more so than it already is).

Point is, those games that attempt to do as you ask struggle. It results in players sitting around at the end game wondering why they are playing. Defeating content without meaningful progression is just a simple action game. Nothing wrong with action games, but action games lack depth and purpose which result in people losing interest (hence the numerous game hopping in mainstream games these days).

/shrug

[Chai]

The distinction is implicit to your argument, but it's an assumption that I am not sure is warranted. I am not convinced that it is such a great thing for people to spend hours grinding quests to get items. Sure, it temporarily increases numbers in the game.. for some. But others look at the grind and say "forget that", then end up quitting even sooner than they would with items in the store.

I've played MMOs where massive grinding was necessary to get "end game" gear. And guess what? THEIR forums are filled with complaints also... "too luck dependent", "I have a job, I don't need another one", I can't keep up with my guildies", etc... complete with threats to quit over it.

There are likely many people for whom the ability to buy stuff in the store is PREVENTING them from quitting.

Sure however....why are those drop rates set so low in the first place? Because theres a market audience who will pay to circumvent having to grind them out perhaps?

Those other MMOs have guaranteed drops in their raids, and guilds decide who gets what using their own system, usually DKP oriented.


The solution to the hamster wheel has always existed and is always the same: jump off. Especially in a game like this with virtually no interplayer competition, any "need" to have the latest and greatest is self-imposed. That applies however the stuff is acquired.

Yes it is self imposed, however once the company sees there is a market audience who imposes that on themselves, and it is saturated with the previous level of character power, to continue to make money off that self imposition, they need to ramp up the level of character power one can buy to new higher standards, which take a much longer time to earn in game. It wont be long now before we start seeing +7 tomes in new build threads. This usually happens shortly after the new increment of tome goes on sale. :p

[Severlin]

Our policy on stat tomes has been consistent for a number of years. We don’t want you to be able to buy everything you can earn in game, but stat tomes are one of the items that players can either earn in game and, later, get from the store.

Sev~

[festasha]

I agree turbine needs to make money but sometimes a dangling carrot is enough to keep players running things... somethings should not be made so easy to come by as people get bored once they have it and have nothing much to achieve.

[Xenich]

Sure however....why are those drop rates set so low in the first place? Because theres a market audience who will pay to circumvent having to grind them out perhaps?


Good point which makes the companies stance on abuse (ie obtaining power too fast/easy) in game play hypocritical and why RMTs are terrible design mechanics for games as they directly affect the games development directions. As you said, why are the drops so low? A common reason used before RMTs was that it disrupted the balance of risk/reward, resulting in poor game play. Though with RMTs, the concern is no longer that balance, rather it is the incentive for people to spend money in the store. This isn't new, Perfect World Entertainment as well as many other Eastern game companies have perfected this carrot by the use of clever walls, grinds, etc... to lead the player to the store to purchase their reward rather than earn it in game. That is why it is amusing to watch people complain about balance while at the same time defending these PTW practices.

[Postumus]

Are you serious devs? I JUST got my +6 to +7 tome from toee and you do this smooth move?? Thanks for making all that time worthless! :(


Look on the bright side: now you can buy +7 tomes for every stat and don't have to keep farming toee!

[Memnir]

http://i.imgur.com/P0xir8Q.jpg

[Xenich]

I agree turbine needs to make money but sometimes a dangling carrot is enough to keep players running things... somethings should not be made so easy to come by as people get bored once they have it and have nothing much to achieve.

Personally, I think their focus on RMT is what resulted in their problems. DDO prospered under RMT for a while because it had a very unique carrot of product to sell in the stores (TR/LR hearts) combined with an "end game" that was really just a superior form of alting. I think that is where they made the bulk of their money in the past. Though in other games, this approach didn't work as well and ended up harming the game (ie LoTRO).

[Postumus]

http://i.imgur.com/P0xir8Q.jpg



You know whales are a BIG reason these forums exist for you to post in, right?


Seriously guys, the horse left the barn 5 years ago. Hand wringing every time something goes on sale in the DDO store is just negative energy and a poor use of time.

[Qaliya]

D&D has always been about that progression of play. From the dragons cash, to that golden chest, that mysterious talking sword, etc... the games systems have always been about power progression. D&D has always been about rule systems, progressing through them, etc...


I don't really agree with you here. D&D has been about progression, sure.. but primarily it has been about having fun with the actual content. Progression was anticipated and expected, but not the reason the game was played in the first place.

What would you say to a DM who told you this: "We are going to run the same dungeon over and over. Each time, at the end, I will roll percentile dice, and if they come up "00" you get an awesome sword." I'd say this: "No thanks, goodbye."

Because the point was to enjoy the game itself. Not to focus on the stuff at the end.


Sure however....why are those drop rates set so low in the first place? Because theres a market audience who will pay to circumvent having to grind them out perhaps?


Ironically, for the very same reason you are claiming is important: so people will play more. If the drop rates are high people get the items quickly and the only difference is Turbine is out cash that could be used to improve the game.



Those other MMOs have guaranteed drops in their raids, and guilds decide who gets what using their own system, usually DKP oriented.


Not the ones I've played.



Yes it is self imposed, however once the company sees there is a market audience who imposes that on themselves, and it is saturated with the previous level of character power, to continue to make money off that self imposition, they need to ramp up the level of character power one can buy to new higher standards, which take a much longer time to earn in game. It wont be long now before we start seeing +7 tomes in new build threads. This usually happens shortly after the new increment of tome goes on sale. :p

This is not much of a "ramping up". I seriously doubt that having an extra +1 to a few stats makes any appreciable difference in the viability of a character even at "end game".

The only really inexcusable items in the DDO store IMO are the experience boxes. But here too, if someone wants to support the game by dropping $1000 to get a pile of past lives, well, that person probably wouldn't have grinded those lives anyway, and I'd rather Turbine have the cash than them just leaving.

[Xenich]

Seriously guys, the horse left the barn 5 years ago. Hand wringing every time something goes on sale in the DDO store is just negative energy and a poor use of time.

Bingo!

I honestly could care less about DDO. I play it as I choose, without care or worry if the company folds (or that of stupid PTW, etc...). If I get tired of the game, I am done, no loss, no care, no concern. I didn't used to be this way, but having MMO companies sell out to main stream continually over the years (You did this multiple times Turbine!), you stop caring and treat them with the same concern they do you.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

The distinction is implicit to your argument, but it's an assumption that I am not sure is warranted. I am not convinced that it is such a great thing for people to spend hours grinding quests to get items. Sure, it temporarily increases numbers in the game.. for some. But others look at the grind and say "forget that", then end up quitting even sooner than they would with items in the store.

I've played MMOs where massive grinding was necessary to get "end game" gear. And guess what? THEIR forums are filled with complaints also... "too luck dependent", "I have a job, I don't need another one", I can't keep up with my guildies", etc... complete with threats to quit over it.

There are likely many people for whom the ability to buy stuff in the store is PREVENTING them from quitting.


The problem isn't grinding v. paying though. There are a lot of things in DDO that require heavy grind (or massive luck), either through upgrading with mats or just fighting a miniscule droprate; but none of those things are gateways to playing through the hardest content. If the thing that stands between you and joining an EE Defiler is a +7 tome, are you really going to be joining that Defiler in the first place?

The issue is power creep and the imbalance of content in epic levels, and the player dissatisfaction from all angles of that discussion. +7 tomes are just one more straw on that camel; they aren't fixing a problem, they are digging at the bottom of an already deep hole.

[Xenich]

I don't really agree with you here. D&D has been about progression, sure.. but primarily it has been about having fun with the actual content. Progression was anticipated and expected, but not the reason the game was played in the first place.

What would you say to a DM who told you this: "We are going to run the same dungeon over and over. Each time, at the end, I will roll percentile dice, and if they come up "00" you get an awesome sword." I'd say this: "No thanks, goodbye."

Because the point was to enjoy the game itself. Not to focus on the stuff at the end.


Fun has no real viable meaning in the point of the discussion though. People do different things for fun, the list of those things are vast and depend on the subject. D&D however has a pretty clear history of its purpose of development. D&Ds roots come from strategy based games (ie chainmail) and though it offered an option D20 system that later became the standard, the point of the game was its systems being placed into a story setting and those systems were that of character progression as it was applied to scenarios, that is a statistical contest of the characters within the various encounters in that story. So, leveling, becoming more powerful, gaining items, etc... was the point of the game. Gygax even created AD&D as a response to the problems people were having with D&D (ie leaving the rule system up to players who lacked any structure or organization). Read through the first edition DM guide and it is clear how rule intensive, how progression based D&D was intended to be.

That said, what you describe is MMO concept (ie running a dungeon over and over again for loot). You didn't do that in PnP (though I imagine you could /shrug) as most of the time you were moving off to new adventures, new areas (modules), etc... Also, level progression was much faster than MMOs (for good reason). So obviously there has been some adaption for video game play. You can't expect a direct translation as it is not reasonable as a product model.

That said, many people played D&D because the "fun" you speak of to them was to explore, gather items and gain power (ie min/maxing statistics and strategies of development).

[slarden]

Our policy on stat tomes has been consistent for a number of years. We don’t want you to be able to buy everything you can earn in game, but stat tomes are one of the items that players can either earn in game and, later, get from the store.

Sev~

Over time the top tomes available in the store have become harder to get in-game. For example they are no longer available as 20th rewards for end game raids.

[Chai]

I don't really agree with you here. D&D has been about progression, sure.. but primarily it has been about having fun with the actual content. Progression was anticipated and expected, but not the reason the game was played in the first place.

Its about playing the game, not bribing the Dm to give you extra stuff. :p



What would you say to a DM who told you this: "We are going to run the same dungeon over and over. Each time, at the end, I will roll percentile dice, and if they come up "00" you get an awesome sword." I'd say this: "No thanks, goodbye."

Would the answer be to pay the DM to give you the item? Or would the answer be to expect reasonable progression with abilities and gear?



Because the point was to enjoy the game itself. Not to focus on the stuff at the end.

And enjoying it means playing it, not paying to circumvent playing it.



Ironically, for the very same reason you are claiming is important: so people will play more. If the drop rates are high people get the items quickly and the only difference is Turbine is out cash that could be used to improve the game.

The drops just need to be reasonable, not so high people get the item on their third run.



This is not much of a "ramping up". I seriously doubt that having an extra +1 to a few stats makes any appreciable difference in the viability of a character even at "end game".

I see this argument each time, and it shows that people are only taking into account the current rise in increment, and not the fact that we are up to +7 tomes as the build standard. 36 point build? try 78 point build. That's not a huge jump? We can now buy more total points than the total we are given to allocate at character creation.


The only really inexcusable items in the DDO store IMO are the experience boxes. But here too, if someone wants to support the game by dropping $1000 to get a pile of past lives, well, that person probably wouldn't have grinded those lives anyway, and I'd rather Turbine have the cash than them just leaving.

Youre trying to say people would rather pay to circumvent playing the game than actually playing the game. If this is the case, their marketing tactic is full on ingenious. This is precisely what ive been referring to as "the market audience ".

Like another poster stated in this thread, people in full on defense of selling this much character power complaining about game balance are the paragons of irony.

[Portalcat]

Our policy on stat tomes has been consistent for a number of years. We don’t want you to be able to buy everything you can earn in game, but stat tomes are one of the items that players can either earn in game and, later, get from the store.

Sev~

Again, I think people would take this much better if there was something else difficult and worthwhile to chase at endgame.

There really isn't right now. Developing mythic items as that category seems like the most straightforward route to getting there, but it's nowhere close yet. Endgame players are decked out in raid gear, but there's only one raid with mythics, and that raid cannot readily be run above EN without lagwiping.

[Cetus]

Our policy on stat tomes has been consistent for a number of years. We don’t want you to be able to buy everything you can earn in game, but stat tomes are one of the items that players can either earn in game and, later, get from the store.

Sev~

Stupidity can be consistent

Placing items that incentivize running your content in the store is definitely stupid, from a player's point of view anyway.

[Vellrad]

Our policy on stat tomes has been consistent for a number of years. We don’t want you to be able to buy everything you can earn in game, but stat tomes are one of the items that players can either earn in game and, later, get from the store.

Sev~

Never heard about anyone looting +6 or +5=>+6 from chest.

If its faster to just create and delete alts over and over to farm TP, than to farm actual chests to get tome, something's wrong.

[Thrudh]

But you are attempting to initiate a personal discussion where none is warranted.

You say, "I told you all that selling tomes would hurt the game. Population has declined in the last 5 years, so I have been proven right"

I (and everyone else in this thread) say, "There is no proof that selling tomes or p2w in general is the only or even main cause of the population decline. There are many other possible causes. Most (ALL?) MMOs have declining populations after 10 years. Correlation does not equal causation".

You say, "The difference between correlation and causation doesn't refute my position. In fact, it fully supports it."

??????

It's impossible to just discuss your position when you respond like this. It's like we're speaking two different languages.

[axel15810]

DDO has to make money, stuff like tomes are a necessary evil.

However, I want to see more in game options than we have now. Tome drop rates seem to be too low. I never ever pull them or see them pulled.

[Xenich]

You say, "I told you all that selling tomes would hurt the game. Population has declined in the last 5 years, so I have been proven right"

I (and everyone else in this thread) say, "There is no proof that selling tomes or p2w in general is the only or even main cause of the population decline. There are many other possible causes. Most (ALL?) MMOs have declining populations after 10 years. Correlation does not equal causation".

You say, "The difference between correlation and causation doesn't refute my position. In fact, it fully supports it."

??????

It's impossible to just discuss your position when you respond like this. It's like we're speaking two different languages.

Certainly there is no "fact" as to the decline of MMOs, just various evaluations and arguments either sound or unsound. That said, while you say that PTW is not the cause, that all MMOs are in decline, an interesting observation is that most MMOs these days have some form RMT with PTW features. So while it does not establish such a claim as valid, it certainly gets one to thinking. /shrug

[Severlin]

Again, I think people would take this much better if there was something else difficult and worthwhile to chase at endgame.

There really isn't right now. Developing mythic items as that category seems like the most straightforward route to getting there, but it's nowhere close yet. Endgame players are decked out in raid gear, but there's only one raid with mythics, and that raid cannot readily be run above EN without lagwiping.

I understand what you are saying. First, I doubt this sale will make +7 tomes as an in game reward obsolete. The demand will still be high. Second, the latest content has some good loot, and mythic bonuses help give the players the chance for an upgrade even as they rerun it. U28 will have more end game dungeons as Harry strikes back for some sweet vengeance, and U29 will allow you to progress to level 30 and work on end game loot through an updated epic Greensteel system. We do have end game players in mind.

As an aside, we have a patch coming next week to help reduce lag in the raid, improve hireling AI, and fix the crafting improvements that let players craft from their crafting bank. I won't say the update will solve raid lag, it should improve things.

Sev~

[Whitehairguy]

You say, "I told you all that selling tomes would hurt the game. Population has declined in the last 5 years, so I have been proven right"

I (and everyone else in this thread) say, "There is no proof that selling tomes or p2w in general is the only or even main cause of the population decline. There are many other possible causes. Most (ALL?) MMOs have declining populations after 10 years. Correlation does not equal causation".

You say, "The difference between correlation and causation doesn't refute my position. In fact, it fully supports it."

??????

It's impossible to just discuss your position when you respond like this. It's like we're speaking two different languages.


And yet, you guys keep feeding the troll. Odd, that.

[Chai]

You say, "I told you all that selling tomes would hurt the game. Population has declined in the last 5 years, so I have been proven right"

I (and everyone else in this thread) say, "There is no proof that selling tomes or p2w in general is the only or even main cause of the population decline. There are many other possible causes. Most (ALL?) MMOs have declining populations after 10 years. Correlation does not equal causation".

You say, "The difference between correlation and causation doesn't refute my position. In fact, it fully supports it."

??????

false dichotomy. You don't have anywhere near "everyone else" on your side. There have been plenty of people who have disagreed with selling this much character power, both over the years, and in this very thread.


It's impossible to just discuss your position when you respond like this. It's like we're speaking two different languages.

Nope - as proven by people replying with both agreement and disagreement in this thread in a civil rational manner. Here you are again attempting to put it all on the person who disagrees, rather than looking inward for the reason why you have to attempt to turn the discussion in an unnecessary personal direction. Instead of insinuating that something wrong with the poster is the reason why the position exists and cant be discussed, read the example replies which actually discuss the issue in a non personal manner, and follow their example.

[Xenich]

DDO has to make money, stuff like tomes are a necessary evil.

However, I want to see more in game options than we have now. Tome drop rates seem to be too low. I never ever pull them or see them pulled.

Why make the drops better? Remember "DDO has to make money". Probably best if they remove the chance to get a tome in game entirely. That way, they are sure to make money right?

[Qaliya]

And enjoying it means playing it, not paying to circumvent playing it.


Enjoyment is subjective. I'd rather do gardening chores than grind quests.



The drops just need to be reasonable, not so high people get the item on their third run.


"Reasonable" is also subjective. In the past they have released content with rewards not requiring a long grind, and what do you know, people complained.



I see this argument each time, and it shows that people are only taking into account the current rise in increment, and not the fact that we are up to +7 tomes as the build standard. 36 point build? try 78 point build. That's not a huge jump? We can now buy more total points than the total we are given to allocate at character creation.


This argument fails to take into account that the lesser tomes are now not nearly as difficult to get as they once were. When I started out a +4 was a big deal; now it's not. Also doesn't take into account the general expansion of plus items since epic began. You can get, what +10 items for plat now easily?

Considering the boosts available from gear and past lives and EDs, an extra +1 or +2 or even +4 is not a huge deal, no.



Youre trying to say people would rather pay to circumvent playing the game than actually playing the game.


This is a strawman. I am saying some people prefer some parts of the game and would like to circumvent others. Not unlike how in P&P, some players prefer to start at a higher level than others.



Like another poster stated in this thread, people in full on defense of selling this much character power complaining about game balance are the paragons of irony.

This is another strawman, as I am not "full on defending" anything, simply taking issue with many of your characterizations and claims.

[Novalis]

Even before the mimic event, people such as myself were farming the stinkpit in Haunted Halls. We would get juju zombies to go splat and have a healthy amount of chests waiting at the bottom. This was tedious and time consuming but players were able to get decent remnant drops and every once in awhile, +5 upgrade tomes would drop. For some reason this incurred the ire of some miserly higher-up. They reformatted the Haunted Halls taking away the stinkpit & drastically reduced the amount of orange name champs. The ones that remained had their chance to drop a chest reduced as seen in EE inferno. But tome drop rate was also decreased not just for those quests but everywhere. I was getting +5 and +6 tomes in epic HARD necro inferno. Even though I put in full days farming, and many of these pulls were from casual gaming for that rare moment of FUN, apparently my pulls were seen as a sign of budget overflow and needed to be dealt with in a higher priority level than other issues.

Supply and demand. Create the supply of something cut off that people were getting somewhere else and people will demand it, whatever it may be. I don't think this would have been too much of an issue of others had better droprates in the months since ToEE, or if they just waited a little longer for release. But with the all but imminent hotfix to save the day from the lag monster and possibly other broken mechanics, I can't help but feel chumped by the antics of the last month let alone the last 3 or 5 months.

[Chai]

Enjoyment is subjective. I'd rather do gardening chores than grind quests.

but playing vs paying is objective and factual. People enjoying playing the game > people paying to circumvent playing.




"Reasonable" is also subjective. In the past they have released content with rewards not requiring a long grind, and what do you know, people complained.

They already have metrics as feedback has been provided regarding what peoples favorite raids and quests are. So while subjective to the player, its objective to the company.


This argument fails to take into account that the lesser tomes are now not nearly as difficult to get as they once were. When I started out a +4 was a big deal; now it's not. Also doesn't take into account the general expansion of plus items since epic began. You can get, what +10 items for plat now easily?

Where are you seeing +4s drop with any frequency?



"Considering the boosts available from gear and past lives and EDs, an extra +1 or +2 or even +4 is not a huge deal, no.

You stated the jump wasn't that big. I showed that the jump between 36 point build (no tomes) and 78 point build (+7 tomes across the board) is much more significant than you are claiming here.


This is a strawman. I am saying some people prefer some parts of the game and would like to circumvent others. Not unlike how in P&P, some players prefer to start at a higher level than others.

No strawman there actually. You claimed that people wouldn't grind and would just leave if no option to pay existed.


This is another strawman, as I am not "full on defending" anything, simply taking issue with many of your characterizations and claims.

No strawman there either as the comment was not made about you specifically, but anyone who defends this level of character power being sold while at the same time complains about the game being unbalanced.

[Severlin]

Even before the mimic event, people such as myself were farming the stinkpit in Haunted Halls. We would get juju zombies to go splat and have a healthy amount of chests waiting at the bottom. This was tedious and time consuming but players were able to get decent remnant drops and every once in awhile, +5 upgrade tomes would drop. For some reason this incurred the ire of some miserly higher-up. They reformatted the Haunted Halls taking away the stinkpit & drastically reduced the amount of orange name champs. The ones that remained had their chance to drop a chest reduced as seen in EE inferno. But tome drop rate was also decreased not just for those quests but everywhere. I was getting +5 and +6 tomes in epic HARD necro inferno. Even though I put in full days farming, and many of these pulls were from casual gaming for that rare moment of FUN, apparently my pulls were seen as a sign of budget overflow and needed to be dealt with in a higher priority level than other issues.

Supply and demand. Create the supply of something cut off that people were getting somewhere else and people will demand it, whatever it may be. I don't think this would have been too much of an issue of others had better droprates in the months since ToEE, or if they just waited a little longer for release. But with the all but imminent hotfix to save the day from the lag monster and possibly other broken mechanics, I can't help but feel chumped by the antics of the last month let alone the last 3 or 5 months.

Tome rates should not have changed. PM the info and we will look into whether it might have been bugged.

Sev~

[Qaliya]

but playing vs paying is objective and factual. People enjoying playing the game > people paying to circumvent playing.


People paying to circumvent parts they dislike, helping to support development and allowing them to play parts they do like >>> mindless grinding.



They already have metrics as feedback has been provided regarding what peoples favorite raids and quests are. So while subjective to the player, its objective to the company.


This comment has no relevance to the quoted text of mine that I can discern.



Where are you seeing +4s drop with any frequency?


Maybe not +4s, but there are +3s sitting for sale for plat on my server. Plat is very easy for anyone to come by.



You stated the jump wasn't that big. I showed that the jump between 36 point build (no tomes) and 78 point build (+7 tomes across the board) is much more significant than you are claiming here.


Yes you did. And then completely ignored my counter-argument, which is that "no tomes versus +7 tomes" is a false dichotomy. I don't know anyone who builds anything beyond a bank mule with no tomes, and +2 and +3 are very easy to come by now. They weren't back then.

The difference between +7 and +3 is 2 points on a stat. And we now have people running around with stats in what, the 70s? 80s? We sure didn't back when I started.

The truth is that a +7 tome is less valuable on a 2015 character, in terms of percentage increase of character power, than a +3 tome was on a 2011 character.



No strawman there actually. You claimed that people wouldn't grind and would just leave if no option to pay existed.


Your comment was: "Youre trying to say people would rather pay to circumvent playing the game than actually playing the game. " That is a strawman, as I never said that at all. It's an attempt to misrepresent a nuanced argument with a silly one so you can tear it down; pretty classic strawman, actually.

[Thar]

Tome rates should not have changed. PM the info and we will look into whether it might have been bugged.

Sev~

I have pulled +3 tomes out of the TF raid rewards instead of a +5.

The 4-5 or 5 tomes have seemed to disappear.

[Chai]

Yes you did. And then completely ignored my counter-argument, which is that "no tomes versus +7 tomes" is a false dichotomy. I don't know anyone who builds anything beyond a bank mule with no tomes, and +2 and +3 are very easy to come by now. They weren't back then.

.

It not a false dichotomy. Each time new tomes went on sale very shortly thereafter build posts start using the max level tome, as they are purchasable straight cash and can be had right now. The dichotomy pointed out by myself is correct, unless youre arguing this will somehow happen differently than every single other time a new +1 higher tome went on sale.



Your comment was: "Your trying to say people would rather pay to circumvent playing the game than actually playing the game. " That is a strawman, as I never said that at all. It's an attempt to misrepresent a nuanced argument with a silly one so you can tear it down; pretty classic strawman, actually.

Nope, you clearly made that very claim, here:



The only really inexcusable items in the DDO store IMO are the experience boxes. But here too, if someone wants to support the game by dropping $1000 to get a pile of past lives, well, that person probably wouldn't have grinded those lives anyway, and I'd rather Turbine have the cash than them just leaving.

...which incorrectly assumes the person would not have participated in the grind. Which also incorrectly assumes the grind would be the same as it is if stuff wasn't also for sale.

[Steelstar]

I have pulled +3 tomes out of the TF raid rewards instead of a +5.

The 4-5 or 5 tomes have seemed to disappear.

Almost any high-enough-level chest can drop +3 Tomes (via the Lootgen tables), even those that have +5s as part of their Named Loot Tables.

[Blackheartox]

Stupidity can be consistent

Placing items that incentivize running your content in the store is definitely stupid, from a player's point of view anyway.


Exactly, its the main issue they have in ddo, as if they are disconnected with the game they design

[Thrudh]

false dichotomy. You don't have anywhere near "everyone else" on your side. There have been plenty of people who have disagreed with selling this much character power, both over the years, and in this very thread.

False dichotomy. We're not talking about if selling this much character power is good or bad. Reasonable people can agree or disagree on that. We were discussing whether it is proven that it is the main cause of declining populations. There are too many variables (especially for a non-employee) to be able to claim that. All reasonable people agree.


Nope - as proven by people replying with both agreement and disagreement in this thread in a civil rational manner. Here you are again attempting to put it all on the person who disagrees, rather than looking inward for the reason why you have to attempt to turn the discussion in an unnecessary personal direction. Instead of insinuating that something wrong with the poster is the reason why the position exists and cant be discussed, read the example replies which actually discuss the issue in a non personal manner, and follow their example.

Insinuating that I am replying in a non-personal manner doesn't refute my position. In fact, it fully supports it.

[Chai]

False dichotomy. We're not talking about if selling this much character power is good or bad. Reasonable people can agree or disagree on that. We were discussing whether it is proven that it is the main cause of declining populations. There are too many variables (especially for a non-employee) to be able to claim that. All reasonable people agree.

yet you brought up "the entire MMO industry being in decline" as if this was not explainable - and were countered by someone who understands informing you that most of those MMOs have resorted to RMT and some degree of P2W to try to right the ship. Too many variables? Looks like some things are looking pretty constant. MMO industry attempts to keep its head above water by switching to varying degrees of p2w to survive. Hilarity ensues.

[Postumus]

It wont be long now before we start seeing +7 tomes in new build threads. This usually happens shortly after the new increment of tome goes on sale. :p


False equivalency.


A - There already were threads with +7 tomes in builds before they went on sale


B - By the time tomes go on sale, the powergrinders who want to eke out every last +0.5 already have their tomes from grinding since the tomes drop in the game months before they hit the store. How long have +7 upgrades been dropping now? Four? Five?


Next!

[arkonas]

yet you brought up "the entire MMO industry being in decline" as if this was not explainable - and were countered by someone who understands informing you that most of those MMOs have resorted to RMT and some degree of P2W to try to right the ship. Too many variables? Looks like some things are looking pretty constant. MMO industry attempts to keep its head above water by switching to varying degrees of p2w to survive. Hilarity ensues.

do you want to know why some are in decline? it when you get to the end there is nothing there. no carrot to chase. sure you can wait until the next pack or expansion but how long can that be. that is the main problem with a lot of mmos. they don't think about the future when it comes to some of this stuff. sure they might have an idea, but that isn't good enough. ddo has one thing going which is the tr system but as i said if that wasn't there or if you finish doing it. you're in the same boat as every mmo out there. this is why i keep saying raids don't need to die. they should do the reaper for the hardcore players and give them something to do it. we all know people won't do it just for the sake of it.

anyone who says otherwise is just lying to themselves. you might run them a few times but after you beat it. what now? same thing right? everyone forgets that even life is a hamster wheel. tell me what do you do everyday? sleep eat get up to do an activity/work or do nothing then repeat.

[Postumus]

And yet, you guys keep feeding the troll. Odd, that.


TBH you could say that about 75% of the threads in General Discussion. ;)

[Algreg]

false dichotomy. You don't have anywhere near "everyone else" on your side. There have been plenty of people who have disagreed with selling this much character power, both over the years, and in this very thread.



Nope - as proven by people replying with both agreement and disagreement in this thread in a civil rational manner. Here you are again attempting to put it all on the person who disagrees, rather than looking inward for the reason why you have to attempt to turn the discussion in an unnecessary personal direction. Instead of insinuating that something wrong with the poster is the reason why the position exists and cant be discussed, read the example replies which actually discuss the issue in a non personal manner, and follow their example.

well, I never doubted there is truth in your frequent observations regarding this topic, but I would have to agree that your Cato the Elder-style idée fixe is not without a comedic quality.

[Chai]

False equivalency.


A - There already were threads with +7 tomes in builds before they went on sale


B - By the time tomes go on sale, the powergrinders who want to eke out every last +0.5 already have their tomes from grinding since the tomes drop in the game months before they hit the store. How long have +7 upgrades been dropping now? Four? Five?


Next!

Nope, because selling them allows them to become the standard, while only having them in game means very few people will have them across the board. Accurate equivalency by degree.

[Chai]

do you want to know why some are in decline? it when you get to the end there is nothing there. no carrot to chase. sure you can wait until the next pack or expansion but how long can that be. that is the main problem with a lot of mmos. they don't think about the future when it comes to some of this stuff. sure they might have an idea, but that isn't good enough. ddo has one thing going which is the tr system but as i said if that wasn't there or if you finish doing it. you're in the same boat as every mmo out there. this is why i keep saying raids don't need to die. they should do the reaper for the hardcore players and give them something to do it. we all know people won't do it just for the sake of it.

Yep, I accounted for lack of things to do after getting to "the end" in my position. A large part of the issue here however, is many on these forums claim DDO isn't about the end, its about the journey, yet full on defend buying our way past that journey to get to the end, to see exactly what you outlined, that theres not much to do there.


anyone who says otherwise is just lying to themselves. you might run them a few times but after you beat it. what now? same thing right? everyone forgets that even life is a hamster wheel. tell me what do you do everyday? sleep eat get up to do an activity/work or do nothing then repeat.

I like It better when my chosen method of entertainment doesn't mimic normal life. I mean if it did, wed all just go outside. :p

[Braegan]

Well, whatever.

I bought one :)

I already had a +6 Wis tome so the upgrade was easy to swing.

[Qaliya]

It not a false dichotomy.


Your words: "I showed that the jump between 36 point build (no tomes) and 78 point build (+7 tomes across the board) is much more significant than you are claiming here."

There is no such jump. "no tomes versus +7 tomes across the board" is a false dichotomy you constructed. Nobody was making serious builds with "no tomes" even when I started 4 years ago.

I have no idea why you make and then defend such easily-deconstructable claims.

And aside from the logical issues, you conveniently ignore the larger point which is that +7 to stats in a current build matters less than +3 to stats did before epic levels. This pretty much cuts your whole "DOOM!"-type argument to shreds. (Not that I wouldn't prefer +7 tomes to be raid gear, but really, it doesn't matter very much.)


It not a false dichotomy.
Nope, you clearly made that very claim, here:


Your response to my charge that you constructed a strawman of my words is to quote something from me completely different than what you claimed I said.

Once again, I fail to see the point, but hey, maybe you find arguing against yourself to be entertaining. :)

[Qhualor]

Our policy on stat tomes has been consistent for a number of years. We don’t want you to be able to buy everything you can earn in game, but stat tomes are one of the items that players can either earn in game and, later, get from the store.

Sev~

at some point several years ago the tome drop rates did change. i remember back in the day seeing stat tomes in Reavers Refuge and Vale end rewards not a lot, but consistent enough to say they do drop at a decent rate. Wheloon was considered a known place to find stat tomes, but i have yet to see any. Reaver, Shroud, VOD, TOD, Hound were known places back in the day that all but guaranteed tomes if not in a chest than in the 20th list. only time ive ever looted a stat tome since MOTU release is from Eveningstar chain 3 in an end reward. over the past few years i personally have looted an average of 1-2 per year that were +1 to +4. i have never seen a +5 or higher drop for me or anyone else. its very rare to see anyone actually loot a tome in a quest and the only ones i really hear pulling them are the item loot farmers that do daily runs, but they said they have never pulled more than a few.

if you do a forum search on tome drop rates, you will find a lot of discussions on how scarce stat tomes have been since 2012. in my experience, it seems you have to have crazy good luck to pull a stat tome through normal play and a lot of patience to farm known content that do drop tomes. i don't think that tomes should be easy to find, but i do think they should drop noticeably enough so that people like me will stop believing that store sales affect drop rates. until then, i cant help believe it is either intentional or you guys are unaware of the drop rates for tomes.

[bracelet]

Tome rates should not have changed. PM the info and we will look into whether it might have been bugged.

Sev~

Unfortunately, with drop rates being so low, it's very difficult to gauge whether rates have actually changed. Anecdotal evidence is all we have without someone eyeballing the code. But for what it's worth:

I started hoarding stat tomes when the high road quests came out. I ended up with so many that I completely filled 4 pages of an alt account with stat tomes of all flavors. I had to start filling other alt's banks with them. I filled another 40 slots at least with tomes. Somewhere along the way I used about 20 of them, raising all my alts stats as far as I could. that's like 140 tomes total. Then one day it stopped. The tome well just got turned off. In the space of the last 12 months or more, I have picked up one stat tome. One. In an end reward list in Wheloon of all places. It wasn't even in a chest.

The drop rate was reported by a dev to be 1 in 330 pulls or something very close to that. In 12 months I have looted 0 tomes from thousands of chests. And no one I have run with has pulled anything either. I should have seen at least 10s of tomes in that time.

Again -anecdotal, and actually statistically possible -but that's the best I personally can do. The only way to be sure is to check the code, or heaven forbid write some testing code that hammers the loot tables to see if the expected distribution is working.

[Stoner81]

I decided to buy a set, I very rarely buy points but am VIP so I figured "why not" type of thing.

Stoner81.

[Chai]

There is no such jump. "no tomes versus +7 tomes across the board" is a false dichotomy you constructed.



That's not a false dichotomy. Im comparing the factual stat points available of a double TR with no tomes versus +7 tomes across all stats. True dichotomy.


Nobody was making serious builds with "no tomes" even when I started 4 years ago.

Now that's a false dichotomy. I invite you to come play permadeath with us sometime. Theres plenty of folks in multiple guilds on each server who do not use tomes unless they find them in game. They craft their builds assuming no tomes are available, and many times end up capped with no tomes. This has been true since DDO went live in 2006.

[LavidDynch]

Unfortunately, with drop rates being so low, it's very difficult to gauge whether rates have actually changed. Anecdotal evidence is all we have without someone eyeballing the code. But for what it's worth:

I started hoarding stat tomes when the high road quests came out. I ended up with so many that I completely filled 4 pages of an alt account with stat tomes of all flavors. I had to start filling other alt's banks with them. I filled another 40 slots at least with tomes. Somewhere along the way I used about 20 of them, raising all my alts stats as far as I could. that's like 140 tomes total. Then one day it stopped. The tome well just got turned off. In the space of the last 12 months or more, I have picked up one stat tome. One. In an end reward list in Wheloon of all places. It wasn't even in a chest.

The drop rate was reported by a dev to be 1 in 330 pulls or something very close to that. In 12 months I have looted 0 tomes from thousands of chests. And no one I have run with has pulled anything either. I should have seen at least 10s of tomes in that time.

Again -anecdotal, and actually statistically possible -but that's the best I personally can do. The only way to be sure is to check the code, or heaven forbid write some testing code that hammers the loot tables to see if the expected distribution is working.

Pretty much this. Would be nice if you could actually loot some tomes.

I got zero +5 tomes, one upgrade tome +6 that was screenshotted at the time -- which is kinda sad considering I'm in a so called 'end game guild' that runs EE raids on daily basis.

[slarden]

Almost any high-enough-level chest can drop +3 Tomes (via the Lootgen tables), even those that have +5s as part of their Named Loot Tables.

The biggest loss of tomes is from raid 20th rewards. That stopped after CITW.

The second biggest loss is that they appear to be diluted once skill tomes started dropping.

[Qaliya]

That's not a false dichotomy. Im comparing the factual stat points available of a double TR with no tomes versus +7 tomes across all stats. True dichotomy.


It's a textbook false dichotomy, because there is a spectrum of options in the middle that you are ignoring in a (failed) attempt to make a point.



Now that's a false dichotomy. I invite you to come play permadeath with us sometime. Theres plenty of folks in multiple guilds on each server who do not use tomes unless they find them in game. They craft their builds assuming no tomes are available, and many times end up capped with no tomes. This has been true since DDO went live in 2006.

If they aren't using tomes then the presence of +7 tomes doesn't matter. It has no relevance to the subpoint you made about what people list builds containing.

Which is what I meant by "nobody". Bringing up permadeath is a red herring.

I can say personally that I never recalled seeing a single build proposed with less than a +2 tome unless it was specifically intended for newbies.

Just to reinforce the core point that you are apparently very interested in ignoring: +7 tomes do not represent a major imbalance in character power given other changes in the game since MotU. They are less important to modern builds than +2/+3/+4 tomes were to builds a few years ago.

[Thrudh]

yet you brought up "the entire MMO industry being in decline" as if this was not explainable - and were countered by someone who understands informing you that most of those MMOs have resorted to RMT and some degree of P2W to try to right the ship. Too many variables? Looks like some things are looking pretty constant. MMO industry attempts to keep its head above water by switching to varying degrees of p2w to survive.

Wait, if the MMO industry attempted to keep its head above water by switching to p2w, doesn't that mean that populations were already declining BEFORE they switched to p2w? Maybe if they hadn't switched, maybe the populations would have gone down faster? (Maybe to zero, since maybe DDO would have closed?)

But forget I asked the question. I know that you are 100% certain.


Hilarity ensues.

Hilarity ensuing doesn't refute my position. In fact, it fully supports it.

[Chai]

It's a textbook false dichotomy, because there is a spectrum of options in the middle that you are ignoring in a (failed) attempt to make a point.

Incorrect, because I never claimed there was not a spectrum of options available. I showed what a bought and paid for character looked like versus a character that was not bought and paid for.




If they aren't using tomes then the presence of +7 tomes doesn't matter. It has no relevance to the subpoint you made about what people list builds containing.

I can say personally that I never recalled seeing a single build proposed with less than a +2 tome unless it was specifically intended for newbies.


Incorrect again, the relevance it has is it refutes your claim that no one is doing this, when I can introduce you to an entire community of players who does exactly what you claimed no one does.


Just to reinforce the core point that you are apparently very interested in ignoring: +7 tomes do not represent a major imbalance in character power given other changes in the game since MotU.

So your character starts with 36 points after two TRs, and adding another 42 points by buying it straight cash you claim represents no major imbalance in character power? Yet at the same time you also claim that NO ONE makes builds without tomes?

[Qaliya]

Incorrect, because I never claimed there was not a spectrum of options available. I showed what a bought and paid for character looked like versus a character that was not bought and paid for.


Once agan I will happily remind you of your own words: "36 point build? try 78 point build. That's not a huge jump? We can now buy more total points than the total we are given to allocate at character creation."

There is no "huge jump". It's a creation in your mind, which you cannot defend. A false dichotomy, ignoring the multitudes of players running around with +1 to +6 stat increases.



Incorrect again, the relevance it has is it refutes your claim that no one is doing this, when I can introduce you to an entire community of players who does exactly what you claimed no one does.

Once again, the subpoint was based on your lament about +7 tomes showing up in builds. My point is that tomes have been used in standard builds for a long time. Bringing up permadeath or other people who don't us tomes is a red herring -- irrelevant to the argument since they don't care about new tomes regardless.

Do keep trying, though.


So your character starts with 36 points after two TRs, and adding another 42 points by buying it straight cash you claim represents no major imbalance in character power? Yet at the same time you also claim that NO ONE makes builds without tomes?

I'm sorry, was there a point there?

[Chai]

Once agan I will happily remind you of your own words: "36 point build? try 78 point build. That's not a huge jump? We can now buy more total points than the total we are given to allocate at character creation."

There is no "huge jump". It's a creation in your mind, which you cannot defend. A false dichotomy, ignoring the multitudes of players running around with +1 to +6 stat increases.

Its a very true dichotomy, because people can buy +7s across the board. Its not merely a creation in my mind, its being sold in game.

Showing you the range of possibilities does in no way ignore the +1 to +6 tomes. It shows the complete range.



Once again, the subpoint was based on your lament about +7 tomes showing up in builds. My point is that tomes have been used in standard builds for a long time. Bringing up permadeath is a red herring -- irrelevant to the argument.

Do keep trying, though.

False. You claimed no one was doing it, when I can introduce you to an entire community of players who do just what you claim no one does. You continually attempt to dismiss this because it refutes your claim and you have no come back for it .

[Chai]

I'm sorry, was there a point there?

Yes. Claiming NO ONE creates builds with no tomes, and also claiming that tomes are not a significant increase in character power, is a direct contradiction in logic.

[Thrudh]

I showed what a bought and paid for character looked like versus a character that was not bought and paid for.

That absolutely is textbook false dichotomy. You tried to prove your point by comparing an all +7 tome character to a zero tome character.


A false dichotomy or false dilemma occurs when an argument presents two extreme options and ignores, either purposefully or out of ignorance, other alternatives

[Qaliya]

Its a very true dichotomy, because people can buy +7s across the board.


*Blinks*.



False. You claimed no one was doing it, when I can introduce you to an entire community of players who do just what you claim no one does. You continually attempt to dismiss this because it refutes your claim and you have no come back for it .

I've already "come back" to it several times. The behavior of a tiny fraction of the community that doesn't use tomes has no relevance to a discussion of whether or not +7 tomes are unbalancing, nor is it representative of how most builds are created.

It's impossible to have an argument with people who have their own definitions for words, and who ignore others' arguments. This is another reason why sometimes people lose patience in arguments, incidentally, though I am not going there. But rest assured: ad hominem attacks may be against the rules, and therefore inexcusable, but they are not always caused by the attacker losing the debate.

[Chai]

That absolutely is textbook false dichotomy. You tried to prove your point by comparing an all +7 tome character to a zero tome character.

Nope - as I clearly showed the range of possibilities and in no way claimed those were the ONLY two possibilities.

Nice try, but no cigar .

[LightBear]

I like It better when my chosen method of entertainment doesn't mimic normal life. I mean if it did, wed all just go outside. :p

I'd stay in bed as much as possible, to much of those pesky dragons flying about. ;)

[Chai]

I've already "come back" to it several times. The behavior of a tiny fraction of the community that doesn't use tomes has no relevance to a discussion of whether or not +7 tomes are unbalancing, or is it representative of how most builds are created.
.

No you did not. You attempted to dismiss that which refuted your position as irrelevant. Its not irrelevant simply because it doesn't support your claim.

As for "tiny fraction of the community" LOL. DDO servers have over 300 but not 400 people logged into them on many days during peak hours. I can introduce you to hundreds of permadeath players in DDO. Here you are attempting to AGAIN dismiss this, simply because im aware of a significant community who plays DDO in a way you claimed NO ONE does.

[Qaliya]

Nope - as I clearly showed the range of possibilities and in no way claimed those were the ONLY two possibilities.

Nice try, but no cigar .

"36 point build? try 78 point build. That's not a huge jump? We can now buy more total points than the total we are given to allocate at character creation."

Your words. False comparison and false dichotomy. Textbook example.

I feel quite certain that if I programmed a bot to respond back to you that you would continue to reply with the same denials until it suffered a mechanical failure, so you can have the last word.

[btolson]

Pretty much this. Would be nice if you could actually loot some tomes.

I got zero +5 tomes, one upgrade tome +6 that was screenshotted at the time -- which is kinda sad considering I'm in a so called 'end game guild' that runs EE raids on daily basis.

I tend to think that tomes are akin to guild renown, and basically won't drop if you're over-level. I don't know if that's intended or not, but given that I can't even remember the last time I pulled one from a chest (and am generally farming xp overlevel for ER) that's my current guess.

[Qaliya]

Here you are attempting to AGAIN dismiss this, simply because im aware of a significant community who plays DDO in a way you claimed NO ONE does.

I did not say nobody plays in that way. And I've already explained what I meant when I said "nobody was making builds without tomes" years ago. Kindly refrain from misrepresenting my posts.

[Chai]

"36 point build? try 78 point build. That's not a huge jump? We can now buy more total points than the total we are given to allocate at character creation."

Your words. False comparison and false dichotomy. Textbook example.

I feel quite certain that if I programmed a bot to respond back to you that you would continue to reply with the same denials until it suffered a mechanical failure, so you can have the last word.

True dichotomy. If you can quote where I made the SPECIFIC CLAIM that those were the only two possibilities, ill admit I was wrong. Don't worry ill wait.

A false dichotomy is claiming there are only x possibilities when there are many more. I gave you the min and the max. I did NOT claim those were the only two possibilities. If you disagree quote where I made that claim.

Of course, you are choosing to focus in on this and hammer it repeatedly, due to having been soundly defeated in the discussion, in attempt to draw attention away from this.

[Thrudh]

due to having been soundly defeated in the discussion

It's unfortunate you see conversations between people as a war to be won.

[Braegan]

Tome rates should not have changed. PM the info and we will look into whether it might have been bugged.

Sev~


Unfortunately, with drop rates being so low, it's very difficult to gauge whether rates have actually changed. Anecdotal evidence is all we have without someone eyeballing the code. But for what it's worth:

I started hoarding stat tomes when the high road quests came out. I ended up with so many that I completely filled 4 pages of an alt account with stat tomes of all flavors. I had to start filling other alt's banks with them. I filled another 40 slots at least with tomes. Somewhere along the way I used about 20 of them, raising all my alts stats as far as I could. that's like 140 tomes total. Then one day it stopped. The tome well just got turned off. In the space of the last 12 months or more, I have picked up one stat tome. One. In an end reward list in Wheloon of all places. It wasn't even in a chest.

The drop rate was reported by a dev to be 1 in 330 pulls or something very close to that. In 12 months I have looted 0 tomes from thousands of chests. And no one I have run with has pulled anything either. I should have seen at least 10s of tomes in that time.

Again -anecdotal, and actually statistically possible -but that's the best I personally can do. The only way to be sure is to check the code, or heaven forbid write some testing code that hammers the loot tables to see if the expected distribution is working.

My own experiences are very close to Bracelets as well.

Some report that around the time Skill Tomes came out it became a division between getting either or. However, I haven't been seeing those drop either.

Now, I am not saying we should ramp the drop rate up to 11! But, perhaps further consideration to including tomes on 20th raid listings should be in mind. Raids like HoX and VoD were played well past the point that meh loot was acquired due to the fact that we could get a shot at a +3 tome. Heck, I remember folks at level 20 who would still run Reaver's Fate (a level 14 raid) just because a +3 tome could drop for them.

[Postumus]

Your words. False comparison and false dichotomy. Textbook example.

I feel quite certain that if I programmed a bot to respond back to you that you would continue to reply with the same denials until it suffered a mechanical failure, so you can have the last word.


This.

[Wizza]

We all saw this coming. Not sure what the uproar is about.

[Whitehairguy]

No you did not. You attempted to dismiss that which refuted your position as irrelevant. Its not irrelevant simply because it doesn't support your claim.

As for "tiny fraction of the community" LOL. DDO servers have over 300 but not 400 people logged into them on many days during peak hours. I can introduce you to hundreds of permadeath players in DDO. Here you are attempting to AGAIN dismiss this, simply because im aware of a significant community who plays DDO in a way you claimed NO ONE does.



Hey, I'll wait to meet these hundreds. I'd be happy to really. I also dabble in PD.

Should I hold my breath or...?

[Chai]

It's unfortunate you see conversations between people as a war to be won.

Here you are yet again attempting to initiate unwarranted personal discussion. I enjoy a good debate, and this should have been figured out by now, but any insinuation of any type of negative character flaw or personal issue simply due to disagreement in either past or present, is something of your own creation.

[Chai]

Hey, I'll wait to meet these hundreds. I'd be happy to really. I also dabble in PD.

Should I hold my breath or...?

....or go take a look at the PD guild listing that has been maintained for quite a few years now, then head over to each site listed there and check out their roster. Its a matter of simple addition after that.

[Whitehairguy]

....or go take a look at the PD guild listing that has been maintained for quite a few years now, then head over to each site listed there and check out their roster. Its a matter of simple addition after that.


I think what you meant to say was you're going to make another claim and hope it sticks to the wall.

I'll take that breath now, thanks :)

[Qaliya]

It's unfortunate you see conversations between people as a war to be won.

After 25 years of being involved in online discussions, it has been my unfortunate conclusion that some are interested in actual debate and some only in insisting that they are right.

And because it's the Internet, if you insist that the earth is flat until your opponent tires of repeating the same counter-argument, you "win". ;) After years of futily fighting against it, I am finally okay with "losing" in this manner.

[Chai]

I think what you meant to say was you're going to make another claim and hope it sticks to the wall.

I'll take that breath now, thanks :)

That directory is right here on these forums. Not willing to do the homework on your end does not indicate incorrectness on my end.

[Whitehairguy]

That directory is right here on these forums. Not willing to do the homework on your end does not indicate incorrectness on my end.


No. But that isn't what you said originally, was it?

:(

[ForumFrenzy]

But you are upgrading two steps.

Upgrading one step is less than a full on tome.

Upgrading two steps is more.

It seems like a natural progression to me.

/shrug

In your logic wouldn't a +7 tome then be a seven step upgrade in one? Ultimately, however, Turbine see you people that buy these things as a ready source of income that will purchase it for the minimal addition it represents. Feed the machine so I can keep playing based on the money I have already handed over to these people. Thx!

[UurlockYgmeov]

I understand what you are saying. First, I doubt this sale will make +7 tomes as an in game reward obsolete. The demand will still be high. Second, the latest content has some good loot, and mythic bonuses help give the players the chance for an upgrade even as they rerun it. U28 will have more end game dungeons as Harry strikes back for some sweet vengeance, and U29 will allow you to progress to level 30 and work on end game loot through an updated epic Greensteel system. We do have end game players in mind.

As an aside, we have a patch coming next week to help reduce lag in the raid, improve hireling AI, and fix the crafting improvements that let players craft from their crafting bank. I won't say the update will solve raid lag, it should improve things.

Sev~

thanks for the update!

[Braegan]

In your logic wouldn't a +7 tome then be a seven step upgrade in one? Ultimately, however, Turbine see you people that buy these things as a ready source of income that will purchase it for the minimal addition it represents. Feed the machine so I can keep playing based on the money I have already handed over to these people. Thx!

Cute.

The poster I was responding to when I wrote that had it applicable to their circumstance.

The pricing strategy is no different than buying an AS guild airship. Paying for each tier or upgrade as you go is going to be more expensive. This is not new, nor should it come as a surprise. That applies to the pricing strategy as well as them releasing them in the store.

[Silverleafeon]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Favor



;;;;;;;




U28 will have more end game dungeons as Harry strikes back for some sweet vengeance, and U29 will allow you to progress to level 30 and work on end game loot through an updated epic Greensteel system. We do have end game players in mind.

As an aside, we have a patch coming next week to help reduce lag in the raid, improve hireling AI, and fix the crafting improvements that let players craft from their crafting bank. I won't say the update will solve raid lag, it should improve things.

Sev~

Wow, thanks for the long term perspective :) :) :)

[PermaBanned]

It's unfortunate you see conversations between people as a war to be won.
Welcome to the false Chaichotomy: that you either agree with him or you're wrong, or if you can't prove him wrong, then he must be right - often coupled with a claim that your wrongness somehow reinforces and/or supports his rightness.

There's a greatly entertaining movie out there called "Thank You for Smoking" where the main character often employs debate tactics similar to Chai's, centering on the notion that he doesn't have to prove he's right because if he can discredit or defame your position - thus "defeating" you - he has won by default.

[PermaBanned]

I understand what you are saying. First, I doubt this sale will make +7 tomes as an in game reward obsolete. The demand will still be high. Second, the latest content has some good loot, and mythic bonuses help give the players the chance for an upgrade even as they rerun it. U28 will have more end game dungeons as Harry strikes back for some sweet vengeance, and U29 will allow you to progress to level 30 and work on end game loot through an updated epic Greensteel system. We do have end game players in mind.

Sev~Sounds good on the surface, though I do hope this isn't your way of gently breaking the news to us that EVale quests will be one update (U28) and EShroud will be a separate one (U29)...

[Silverleafeon]

Sounds good on the surface, though I do hope this isn't your way of gently breaking the news to us that EVale quests will be one update (U28) and EShroud will be a separate one (U29)...

I kind of liked the ~ here is your warlock update then a monthish later here is your new end game raid update.

Nice not bunched up some of the time.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Almost any high-enough-level chest can drop +3 Tomes (via the Lootgen tables), even those that have +5s as part of their Named Loot Tables.

Edited, removed, and moving on.

[Drakos]

And we sincerely asked not to put those fkn tomes into the store, to leave it as ingame only achievment that players get via gameplay.
Of course we expected this idiotism to happen.
Good job ddo, for listening to your playerbase
To be fair, the boards only represent a small portion of their player base, and even then no everyone on the boards asked for them to keep these out of the store.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Each time I see one of these threads, I think back to the discussions we had ~2010 about how this wasn't going to turn into exactly what is has turned into, and I take a look at the names of those people who posted their disagreement that it would ever get to this point, and realize one thing.

The vast majority of them no longer play.
VERY good point.

As much as Im behind the recent changes, I don't like it all that much

[Drakos]

Kinda sad. All those tomes I got from TOEE now seem less of a prize. Oh well. Still costs quite a bit though. Of course this could be seen a mile away. When you are running an FTP model money has to come from somewhere. Tomes are probably a reliable cash cow (I don't know what actual numbers are, just guessing). It allows a ptw solution for new players and brings some money in. I guess for long time players it's a bit of a BOHICA situation :).
See this makes zero sense to me. Did you still run the ToEE quests and get the tomes? Yes you did, how someone else got theirs should have exactly zero impact on this accomplishment.

[Drakos]

Tell me about it.. The fact that i just wasted about 19 hours worth of time grinding out two +6-7 tomes just for them to hit the store is beyond infuriating! All ol' turbine cares about these days is $$$...
Not just these days, that has always been the focus. They are a company after all, they are in the business to make money. Tomes are a good source of revenue for them, of course they will offer them, again they are a for-profit business.

[Drakos]

Yes, making a profit is the number 1 priority in any business, I get that. Its how Turbine goes about making it that frustrates the hell out of me. They could create something new and exciting for the players which would in turn sell more subs (like epic reincarnation) but this would take some effort and hard work. Or just sell xp and loot straight from the store and we can all go back to lunch break because this option takes no effort or hard work.
And the point is that portions of the community find this offer exciting, so congrats, it is a win-win proposition.

[Drakos]

If youre attempting to make a point about how far this has gone being something that has NOT hurt the game in the long run (which we are now experiencing), you are not being very convincing, due to the fact that the far less people around to hear your rebuttal each time this discussion rolls around, is empirical evidence to the contrary, as I clearly pointed out. No need to take my word for it. Read the 2010 era threads where this discussion took place, view how many of those folks denied this would happen, and take note of how many of them you see around nowdays.
Sorry, I have to disagree with the premis here. I don't for a minute buy that stat tomes are the cause of the lagging server population. They may be a small part of why a few people left dbut there are much bigger causes that stat tomes:

First lets call it as it is, the game is nearly 10 years old. That is practically ancient for an MMO, and it is long past it's prime. Next lets look at the fact that the code has been jury-rigged many time to add features that had to be forced in despite the fact that the initial design never conceived of them. Next, although the developers are trying, the quality is suffering due to a lot of the support staff, from the games heyday, have been moved over to other titles,newer titles that stand to be more profitable. Finally, the game is very buggy, and can be quite lagging at times; primarily due to the jury-rigging mentioned above, but also due to some poor design decisions (such as the way they implemented handwraps).

Stat tomes are the least of the problem with DDO.

[cyreme]

See this makes zero sense to me. Did you still run the ToEE quests and get the tomes? Yes you did, how someone else got theirs should have exactly zero impact on this accomplishment.

You misunderstood my point. I took me 2.5 years to get a completionist. Today someone can buy completionist for what 700 bucks? Let me assure you I make more than 700 bucks a week. Do I feel like a fool griding out all those lives - no I don't. I got my entertainment value - i.e. got what I paid for. Someone who buys a completionist will also get what they paid for. However, my issue is not only with tomes making to store, but how quickly they made it there. I don't blame devs - I think this is an accounting issue. Companies these days tend to chase bottom line (at the expense of long term vision sometimes). When tomes were announced for TOEE they were a unique reward only accessible by running a somewhat challenging end game quest. It was thought by many (including myself) that if those tomes made it to store it wouldn't be until Christmas or something, so it would give people time to farm some and allow the quest to "mature." I never for a moment thought that +7 tomes would not make it to store. I fully expected it. Issue is timing. TOEE is still fairly new quest to DDO population (my opinion). Why would people bother running that quest with me now, if they can just spend 1000TP in store and get something they have very small chance of getting in the quest? TOEE pack is cheaper than just 1 +7 upgrade tome. You can do the math yourself as to what's more profitable. So that's why I am a bit peeved. But it's not the first time this has happened, nor will it be the last. One word: BOHICA. Hope that clears it up for you.

[Ovrad]

So...

The players who do buy power from the store are upset cause they need to shovel out a new 50-75$ to still be up to date.
The players who don't buy power from the store are upset cause their hard work and hopes for progression are now made obsolete.

But don't worry folks, we'll have this (mostly) forgotten by the time they add +8 tomes to the store (expected before Christmas 2015).
Stand back and enjoy the slippery slope. What could go wrong?
http://i.imgur.com/VFjy4.gif

[Azarddoze]

My position isn't personal in nature where tomes would be "more meaningful" if I didn't buy them or something like that. The position is looking at things from a business perspective. To me its not about who buys them and who doesn't. Its about allowing people to buy their way past almost everything which constitutes playing the game, then expecting to keep people hanging around for any significant period of time afterward. Turbine already struggles with developing content at any rate that remotely approaches the rate that players can defeat the same content and get what they want out of it. Allowing what they want out of it to simply be bought worsens the already hard to deal with issue of keeping players engaged for the periods of time between content updates. Thus, the heavier attrition rate, now happening mere weeks after each update.

I don't think that selling tomes (or any individual items from the store) hurts longetivity that much in a game revolving around a never ending TR grind. In the end, wether you buy stuff or not, you are most likely to be done with the game for ANY other reasons before you reach your end goal.

Now I know that it does affect some people but it's not all negative. Some players might leave because their achievements (highest tomes in this case) are "taken away" from them. On the other side, some keep on playing because their main way of upgrading their character (burst upgrade) comes from using the shop and that burst (not only new content) is what makes them want to play for more time (hence why it has to occure more often). Those could be discouraged and leave because they actually cannot get the high end stuff.

It is, imo, impossible to account for all the reasons which lead a player to quit a MMO.

That said, I stand firmly against being able to buy high end stuff even considering it has a somewhat good effect on certain players. Partly because this "good effect" comes from something lacking elsewhere in the game. I would never quit over that reason though.




On tomes being sold: There are games which make it crucial for you to have the latest high end stuff to progress. And sometimes it is so tied to RNG that if you don't pay for it, you're better off not playing (unless your disposable time allows you to grind it out). DDO isn't one of them. I often feel that the major problem with tomes being sold and player is that it creates, for unknown reasons to me, a urge to grab them EVEN WHEN you will regret the pruchase. So easily ignored.

[alvarego]

Incorrect, because I never claimed there was not a ...

I'll try to summarize my opinion on all this issue (I bet many share it) ... *YAWN*

PS: please don't start a flame war about reasoning, falsehood, logic and fallacies about this being share, it's just a feeling is not science, peace

[Deadlock]

Our policy on stat tomes has been consistent for a number of years. We don’t want you to be able to buy everything you can earn in game, but stat tomes are one of the items that players can either earn in game and, later, get from the store.

Sev~

Is this matched by a consistent availability of stat tomes ingame?

[Deadlock]

DDO has to make money, stuff like tomes are a necessary evil.

However, I want to see more in game options than we have now. Tome drop rates seem to be too low. I never ever pull them or see them pulled.

I want DDO to make money. That's why I've had a VIP subscription from day one.

I'd like to think that my VIP subscription allows me a fair chance of receiving things ingame if I'm willing to put in a bit of effort. I certainly don't want everything handed to me on a plate. But I don't want things made so incredibly obscure that my only realistic way to gain something is to have to buy it from the store.

I think there's a valid concern that the devs won't be encouraged to put things like stat increase tomes ingame because that would be viewed as creating competition against the store-purchased route to acquiring things.

[Xenich]

First lets call it as it is, the game is nearly 10 years old. That is practically ancient for an MMO, and it is long past it's prime.

Next lets look at the fact that the code has been jury-rigged many time to add features that had to be forced in despite the fact that the initial design never conceived of them. Next, although the developers are trying, the quality is suffering due to a lot of the support staff, from the games heyday, have been moved over to other titles,newer titles that stand to be more profitable. Finally, the game is very buggy, and can be quite lagging at times; primarily due to the jury-rigging mentioned above, but also due to some poor design decisions (such as the way they implemented handwraps).

Stat tomes are the least of the problem with DDO.

This I don't think is a sound position. Having played the bulk of MMOs from their inception and watching many decline, this argument doesn't fit. It conflicts with actual behaviors of gamers in general. That is, people tend to stick with their first MMOs or those they have spent a good amount of time with. In all of the MMOs I have seen people eventually leave from (I understand this is anecdotal, but then this topic of discussion is anyway), the reason was not as you describe, but rather due to a degradation of the game itself. Most common reason is the development focus and strategy shifts away from the original products presentation. People are forgiving to a point, but over time when the product moves away from its original function and presentation, people move on.

If "newness" was the cause, then games like Project 1999 (EQ) would not have over 10k players. All games are buggy to an extent and people will tolerate that depending on if the game delivers what they expect. DDO is a unique game, a diamond in the rough. It has the most in-depth character development system of any game out there (even after years of continued streamlining and mainstream simplification). Not only that, it provides the only sensible end game development and continued progression (ie TRing) as opposed to the pointless grinding with no reward purpose end game of most MMOs today (ie throw away progression). No other game out there can even touch that.

The very thing that makes this game shine is also the very thing that has worked against it over the years. Its complex system is a bit intimidating for beginners, even for veterans of PnP D&D who already are familiar with the systems. That isn't a bad thing, but it puts into perspective as to why people played this game. When you understand that the bulk of the community played this game for its systems, then you understand that anything that simplifies or invalidates the effort to achieve progress within such a system is a direct conflict with the incentive to participate in that system. That is, those who make up the core of players for the game aren't main-streamers game hopping from FTP to FTP each month as they get bored and think that too much effort is a hassle.

So, when we consider these games, why people played them initially and what was likely the cause of their eventual loss of that core player base (who are the ones who keep the game afloat), we can begin to see how RMT has played a part. Those who chase the "newness" factor of a game aren't the core player base, they never were. Bugs play a small part and have to severely detract from the game in order to cause people to give up on a system they find very intriguing. That leaves us with development directions for the most part. DDOs early performance was due to a rocky release and extremely limited content, combined with a completely different style of presentation (most competing MMOs were large open worlds, while DDO was closed, limited, confined). So the people who played the game and kept playing the game (the core base) weren't the fleeting game hoppers of the FTP generation of today. They played the game for its specific charms which most missed.

Personally, what I think killed DDO is the same thing that kills most MMOs out there. It is the mainstreaming of content. It isn't a specific exact thing, but it is a list of common approaches that all contribute and are all part of the same vein; that is limited effort content to appeal to a maximum spread of interests. This approach includes pay stores which market and profit off the need for a certain types of audience who enjoy the "entertainment" of a game, not the game as entertainment (there is a difference). There is a design philosophy that most companies apply these days which is to appeal to the lowest common denominator (LCD) in order to attract the largest possible audience. This method of development isn't focused on the game, but on marketing gimmicks to maximize profit. The result is stream lined games to appeal to everyone (the LCD has to feel as they are just as successful as everyone else) and there are many forms applied to achieve this.

Early approaches was to dumb down content to the point that anyone would find the game easy to pick up and play. This zero effort development focus worked fairly well to pick up large pools of people seeking random entertainment (The Blizzard model). This worked, but it had no means to retain subscribers. Obviously since this method created shallow content and systems that were easily mastered and quickly consumed, players found little reason to keep playing. This is where end game treadmill carrot chases were created. They gave powerful rewards over long term through conditional "low effort" activity (ie the 3-5 min dungeon run, daily, etc...). This worked for a while, but it began to atrophy interest.

Now eastern MMOs have massive grinds and were fairly successful. western companies began to see how they were able to put in ridiculously mundane low effort content and yet still be profitable. This is where Perfect World Entertainment was doing well in. The made interesting games in the vein of popular titles (EQ, WoW, etc... clones) and then gave players the ability to circumvent the mundane content through store purchases. This allowed them to pull in the mainstream audience and retain them longer. They could make the game for the lowest common denominator, but in low effort content and extremely long term conditional based activities and then give people the option to pay money to not be annoyed by such pointless game play. Basically, gaming companies took a page out of the telemarketer hand book. Pester someone in hopes that they will pay you to leave them alone. That is, make the game objectives completely mundane, boring, pointless and infinitely long in task to achieve rewards that are not worth the effort in hopes that people will pay money to bypass them.

RMT is born and it is very profitable in the beginning for many companies. Companies begin streamlining content to appeal to the LCD and eventually they go FTP and implement numerous pay walls and features to encourage store use. While all offer PTW, some move the goal post a bit and re-brand it as "convenience" items to which those who commonly partake in such purchases are more than happy to agree for the sake of their justification.

I know this has been a long progression, but here is where we get to the meat of the issue.


The TLDR version:

When you dumb a game down, design elements to encourage circumvention through RMT, and market PTW solutions, you invalidate what a game is. While a game can be entertaining, a game is not entertainment. A game has specific elements that define its purpose and goals. It is rules, conditions, objectives, and the competition of the player against those aspects in order to win. If that contest, that obstacle of play is meaningless (ie circumvented, low effort), then there is no accomplishment, no self satisfaction for winning which is part of the entertainment of playing a game. This is why people get tired of playing such games. They get bored because there is no point. If you always win, if you easily achieve the objective without effort, then for many, the game is meaningless.

So, if you put tomes in the game and have people put effort to obtain them only to allow others later on to easily circumvent that effort, you invalidate the effort and accomplishment of the player who put in that effort. Few then are willing to put in the time to grind those mundane tasks and obstacles to achieve something that can be bought with real money in a blink of an eye. This leaves only those willing to pay money to "win" really playing and even those who like easy wins get bored of such pointless game play eventually and move on.

So yes, PTW is a very strong component in why MMOs are failing. Not because of PTW specifically, but because PTW is ultimately just playing a game on cheat mode and everyone eventually gets bored with such pointless play.

That is what I have observed over the years. People are free to disagree. /shrug

[EllisDee37]

But don't worry folks, we'll have this (mostly) forgotten by the time they add +8 tomes to the store (expected before Christmas 2015). I'll be annoyed if they ever add +8 tomes, as that would mean a change to tome ML rules. (+8 tomes would be ML31 under the current rules.)

[wlmartin]

How does having something in a store affect your game play at all?

If you decide to buy it or not it's a choice you have available to you.

Perhaps I am missing some elitest angle on this where bragging rights for getting a +7 tome are gone??

It always has and will make me smile when people forget that turbine is a business and has to both make money and improve the game for us. The supplemental income that comes from desirable items available to purchase helps the game.

It used to be an argument that new classes and races shouldn't be immediately open to buy with TP because VIP wanted the benefit of this over anyone else.

I guess some people are different
to me the "my X is bigger than your X" point is an argument I haven't used since I was a child.

[Kuttamia]

Unreal

Things like this really make me want to quit this game

why?

[patang01]

Tome rates should not have changed. PM the info and we will look into whether it might have been bugged.

Sev~

Tome rates have definitely changed. Post Motu I could even get Tomes in end reward lists, but I would get all type of tomes. Post Wheelon this changed in a big way. In something like 2 years I've managed to pull 2 Tomes I think (and all others are skill tomes). I used to have a dedicated mule for tomes alone and I used to be able to upgrade alts with tomes as I found them. Heck, the best time to get tomes were when you guys ran loot bonuses. Last time after running heavy a whole weekend I didn't even get a skill tome.

This is from old content all the way up to the latest. I used to reliably pull tomes out of say Gianthold when running heroic Elite - something I do now every single life month after month. And nothing.

[Cordovan]

Sounds good on the surface, though I do hope this isn't your way of gently breaking the news to us that EVale quests will be one update (U28) and EShroud will be a separate one (U29)...

The Update 28 adventure pack will continue the story of Arraetrikos and the war among the Demons, Devils, and Archons. Update 29 will include Epic Shroud along with a new adventure pack set in that area. Just to reiterate, we are not doing epic versions of Rainbow in the Dark, Running with the Devils, etc. That's always been the plan (to do Epic Shroud along with a new Epic level adventure pack.) So, depending on how you intended to define it, "EVale" remains in Update 29, although it was never planned to include updated epic versions of the current quests in the Vale of Twilight.

[Cordovan]

Is this matched by a consistent availability of stat tomes ingame?

Yes, in that the ability to acquire the highest power tomes is first available in-game, and eventually available in the DDO Store as well. Steelstar and Severlin have already discussed drop rates, so I won't repeat that here.

[HastyPudding]

The Update 28 adventure pack will continue the story of Arraetrikos and the war among the Demons, Devils, and Archons. Update 29 will include Epic Shroud along with a new adventure pack set in that area. Just to reiterate, we are not doing epic versions of Rainbow in the Dark, Running with the Devils, etc. That's always been the plan (to do Epic Shroud along with a new Epic level adventure pack.) So, depending on how you intended to define it, "EVale" remains in Update 29, although it was never planned to include updated epic versions of the current quests in the Vale of Twilight.

So...to clarify, 'epic vale' will be an entirely new pack and share the shroud raid or will it be included in the 'vale of twilight' pack (like epic gianthold is included with gianthold)?

[Wizza]

The Update 28 adventure pack will continue the story of Arraetrikos and the war among the Demons, Devils, and Archons. Update 29 will include Epic Shroud along with a new adventure pack set in that area. Just to reiterate, we are not doing epic versions of Rainbow in the Dark, Running with the Devils, etc. That's always been the plan (to do Epic Shroud along with a new Epic level adventure pack.) So, depending on how you intended to define it, "EVale" remains in Update 29, although it was never planned to include updated epic versions of the current quests in the Vale of Twilight.

So, Update 28 is gonna be 3 quests and that's all?

And U29 is gonna be New Epic Vale + Epic Shroud?

[dopey69]

So, Update 28 is gonna be 3 quests and that's all?

And U29 is gonna be New Epic Vale + Epic Shroud?

your going to complain .........amiright ?

[Wizza]

your going to complain .........amiright ?

You know me better obviously, you tell me :)

[Xenich]

How does having something in a store affect your game play at all?

If you decide to buy it or not it's a choice you have available to you.

Perhaps I am missing some elitest angle on this where bragging rights for getting a +7 tome are gone??

It always has and will make me smile when people forget that turbine is a business and has to both make money and improve the game for us. The supplemental income that comes from desirable items available to purchase helps the game.

It used to be an argument that new classes and races shouldn't be immediately open to buy with TP because VIP wanted the benefit of this over anyone else.

I guess some people are different
to me the "my X is bigger than your X" point is an argument I haven't used since I was a child.

I see it as making any effort a waste of time. Why would I spend an enormous amount of time and effort attempting to gain something in game when I can pop down some cash and have it instantly? Then there is the fact that if something is that easily obtained, it really isn't worth much anyway and if things aren't worth much in the game, then what is the point of playing?

There used to be a time where spending a lot of time and effort to achieve something was satisfying, not because of bragging rights, but because of the reward of something worthy for the effort put forward. I remember spending a lot of time earning the traits and virtues in LoTRO. When they opened the store and started selling them, my effort became pointless, the game lost meaning to me and I stopped playing shortly after. I mean, why bother working hard for something that another can cheat to obtain? It would be pointless waste of time.

Sure, there are those who will say "Well, don't buy them, you can earn them the hard way" and my response to that is "why bother"? Only reason someone would do that is to brag about it and I have no interest impressing people in a video game.

[Sebastrd]

I mean, why bother working hard for something that another can cheat to obtain? It would be pointless waste of time.

I think you've identified your problem.

[Kuttamia]

I see it as making any effort a waste of time. Why would I spend an enormous amount of time and effort attempting to gain something in game when I can pop down some cash and have it instantly? Then there is the fact that if something is that easily obtained, it really isn't worth much anyway and if things aren't worth much in the game, then what is the point of playing?

There used to be a time where spending a lot of time and effort to achieve something was satisfying, not because of bragging rights, but because of the reward of something worthy for the effort put forward. I remember spending a lot of time earning the traits and virtues in LoTRO. When they opened the store and started selling them, my effort became pointless, the game lost meaning to me and I stopped playing shortly after. I mean, why bother working hard for something that another can cheat to obtain? It would be pointless waste of time.

Sure, there are those who will say "Well, don't buy them, you can earn them the hard way" and my response to that is "why bother"? Only reason someone would do that is to brag about it and I have no interest impressing people in a video game.

You belong to the group of players that no matter how much of a pay to win model it takes, your still going to continue playing the game, its a guarantee. This means that they don't need to waste their time trying to satisfy the group you belong to and focus on other players who are more likely to leave, so that they can milk them here and there.

[Xenich]

I think you've identified your problem.


So you don't consider paying money to the game maker to circumvent a game rule to be cheating?

"psst... he dev! I will slip you 50 bucks if you give me the tome drop from that raid"

[Xenich]

You belong to the group of players that no matter how much of a pay to win model it takes, your still going to continue playing the game, its a guarantee. This means that they don't need to waste their time trying to satisfy the group you belong to and focus on other players who are more likely to leave, so that they can milk them here and there.


Not really. I haven't had any loyalty to a game company for over 15 years. They can't survive on me. I am just like all the FTP jumpers. I come back for a bit, sub a few months play my fill so I can avoid the FTP money trap and don't come back for a another couple of years or more. These guys don't survive off me, they survive off the PTW people who think paying a sub is stupid, but see no problems spending 200 bucks in a month on store items. Those folks are fickle, come and go and eventually fade away (which is why these types of RMT games are slowly dying). /shrug

[Tscheuss]

Sadly, the title is misleading. +7 tomes are for sale, but they are not on sale (other stat tomes are on sale, though. Go figure.) One must still pay full price for the top tomes.

It is not cheating. One can do only what the devs permit via code. Cheating is not possible without hacking the code, and hacking is not needed to buy the +7 tomes.

Whether one chooses to farm the +7 tomes or to buy them is a personal decision for each given player. To decry either path is just another way of telling others how to play the game (how to get their fun). Personally, I don't have $50 to blow on +7 tomes, and I know that a half-dozen 5k favor TR's will get me darn close, anyway. :)

[Sebastrd]

So you don't consider paying money to the game maker to circumvent a game rule to be cheating?

"psst... he dev! I will slip you 50 bucks if you give me the tome drop from that raid"

In the sense that it's cheating yourself, sure. Duping, buying store items, etc., cheat the player out of the experience and satisfaction of "earning" their progress.

However, it's not cheating in the sense that it creates an uneven playing field because there is no competition between players outside of one's imagination. In the case of store items, especially, the rules explicitly allow it.

[Xenich]

It is not cheating. One can do only what the devs permit via code. Cheating is not possible without hacking the code, and hacking is not needed to buy the +7 tomes.


Actually, it is cheating, it is simply sanctioned cheating (ie they made pay cheating a part of the game). This type of cheating is circumventing game-play by paying real money to the developers. See, either you play the game, or you can pay the developers to bypass having to play the game.

[Tscheuss]

Actually, it is cheating, it is simply sanctioned cheating (ie they made pay cheating a part of the game). This type of cheating is circumventing game-play by paying real money to the developers. See, either you play the game, or you can pay the developers to bypass having to play the game.

Even if I did buy the +7 Supreme tome for my character, I would still play the game.
I define cheating as circumventing the game as coded, and you define cheating as not playing the game your way. glwt.

[Xenich]

In the sense that it's cheating yourself, sure. Duping, buying store items, etc., cheat the player out of the experience and satisfaction of "earning" their progress.

However, it's not cheating in the sense that it creates an uneven playing field because there is no competition between players outside of one's imagination. In the case of store items, especially, the rules explicitly allow it.

I am not arguing that it is not a part of the rules. It is sanctioned cheating. It would be no different than the NFL claiming they would allow points to be bought with money. Without their permission, its cheating, with it... well... it becomes "a part of the game". Sure, you can say that, but then you would be arguing to appear right when we both know that this really is simply the acceptance of providing cheats for monetary gain by the company. We know this to be cheating because these very companies have taken the stance that such practice was cheating long before RMT stores became common place.

So there is no need to spin this to try and justify it. Its cheating, it is simply accepted cheating by all agreed parties. I may not agree with it, but that doesn't mean those who enjoy such are wrong. Those companies and those who partake in such practice are free to play exactly as they choose, but make no mistake... it is an optional paid cheating of the internal games systems. You can either play the game to achieve that item, or you can pay the company to just give it to you. There is no if, ands or buts here. It is what it is. /shrug

[Xenich]

Even if I did buy the +7 Supreme tome for my character, I would still play the game.
I define cheating as circumventing the game as coded, and you define cheating as not playing the game your way. glwt.

Subjective definitions are meaningless. Words and meanings don't stop existing because someone chooses to ignore them. /shrug

[Angelic-council]

So...to clarify, 'epic vale' will be an entirely new pack and share the shroud raid or will it be included in the 'vale of twilight' pack (like epic gianthold is included with gianthold)?

They said, eVale will introduce all new quests and epicalized version of shroud (old raid).

[Chai]

This I don't think is a sound position. Having played the bulk of MMOs from their inception and watching many decline, this argument doesn't fit. It conflicts with actual behaviors of gamers in general. That is, people tend to stick with their first MMOs or those they have spent a good amount of time with. In all of the MMOs I have seen people eventually leave from (I understand this is anecdotal, but then this topic of discussion is anyway), the reason was not as you describe, but rather due to a degradation of the game itself. Most common reason is the development focus and strategy shifts away from the original products presentation. People are forgiving to a point, but over time when the product moves away from its original function and presentation, people move on.

If "newness" was the cause, then games like Project 1999 (EQ) would not have over 10k players. All games are buggy to an extent and people will tolerate that depending on if the game delivers what they expect. DDO is a unique game, a diamond in the rough. It has the most in-depth character development system of any game out there (even after years of continued streamlining and mainstream simplification). Not only that, it provides the only sensible end game development and continued progression (ie TRing) as opposed to the pointless grinding with no reward purpose end game of most MMOs today (ie throw away progression). No other game out there can even touch that.

The very thing that makes this game shine is also the very thing that has worked against it over the years. Its complex system is a bit intimidating for beginners, even for veterans of PnP D&D who already are familiar with the systems. That isn't a bad thing, but it puts into perspective as to why people played this game. When you understand that the bulk of the community played this game for its systems, then you understand that anything that simplifies or invalidates the effort to achieve progress within such a system is a direct conflict with the incentive to participate in that system. That is, those who make up the core of players for the game aren't main-streamers game hopping from FTP to FTP each month as they get bored and think that too much effort is a hassle.

So, when we consider these games, why people played them initially and what was likely the cause of their eventual loss of that core player base (who are the ones who keep the game afloat), we can begin to see how RMT has played a part. Those who chase the "newness" factor of a game aren't the core player base, they never were. Bugs play a small part and have to severely detract from the game in order to cause people to give up on a system they find very intriguing. That leaves us with development directions for the most part. DDOs early performance was due to a rocky release and extremely limited content, combined with a completely different style of presentation (most competing MMOs were large open worlds, while DDO was closed, limited, confined). So the people who played the game and kept playing the game (the core base) weren't the fleeting game hoppers of the FTP generation of today. They played the game for its specific charms which most missed.

Personally, what I think killed DDO is the same thing that kills most MMOs out there. It is the mainstreaming of content. It isn't a specific exact thing, but it is a list of common approaches that all contribute and are all part of the same vein; that is limited effort content to appeal to a maximum spread of interests. This approach includes pay stores which market and profit off the need for a certain types of audience who enjoy the "entertainment" of a game, not the game as entertainment (there is a difference). There is a design philosophy that most companies apply these days which is to appeal to the lowest common denominator (LCD) in order to attract the largest possible audience. This method of development isn't focused on the game, but on marketing gimmicks to maximize profit. The result is stream lined games to appeal to everyone (the LCD has to feel as they are just as successful as everyone else) and there are many forms applied to achieve this.

Early approaches was to dumb down content to the point that anyone would find the game easy to pick up and play. This zero effort development focus worked fairly well to pick up large pools of people seeking random entertainment (The Blizzard model). This worked, but it had no means to retain subscribers. Obviously since this method created shallow content and systems that were easily mastered and quickly consumed, players found little reason to keep playing. This is where end game treadmill carrot chases were created. They gave powerful rewards over long term through conditional "low effort" activity (ie the 3-5 min dungeon run, daily, etc...). This worked for a while, but it began to atrophy interest.

Now eastern MMOs have massive grinds and were fairly successful. western companies began to see how they were able to put in ridiculously mundane low effort content and yet still be profitable. This is where Perfect World Entertainment was doing well in. The made interesting games in the vein of popular titles (EQ, WoW, etc... clones) and then gave players the ability to circumvent the mundane content through store purchases. This allowed them to pull in the mainstream audience and retain them longer. They could make the game for the lowest common denominator, but in low effort content and extremely long term conditional based activities and then give people the option to pay money to not be annoyed by such pointless game play. Basically, gaming companies took a page out of the telemarketer hand book. Pester someone in hopes that they will pay you to leave them alone. That is, make the game objectives completely mundane, boring, pointless and infinitely long in task to achieve rewards that are not worth the effort in hopes that people will pay money to bypass them.

RMT is born and it is very profitable in the beginning for many companies. Companies begin streamlining content to appeal to the LCD and eventually they go FTP and implement numerous pay walls and features to encourage store use. While all offer PTW, some move the goal post a bit and re-brand it as "convenience" items to which those who commonly partake in such purchases are more than happy to agree for the sake of their justification.

I know this has been a long progression, but here is where we get to the meat of the issue.


The TLDR version:

When you dumb a game down, design elements to encourage circumvention through RMT, and market PTW solutions, you invalidate what a game is. While a game can be entertaining, a game is not entertainment. A game has specific elements that define its purpose and goals. It is rules, conditions, objectives, and the competition of the player against those aspects in order to win. If that contest, that obstacle of play is meaningless (ie circumvented, low effort), then there is no accomplishment, no self satisfaction for winning which is part of the entertainment of playing a game. This is why people get tired of playing such games. They get bored because there is no point. If you always win, if you easily achieve the objective without effort, then for many, the game is meaningless.

So, if you put tomes in the game and have people put effort to obtain them only to allow others later on to easily circumvent that effort, you invalidate the effort and accomplishment of the player who put in that effort. Few then are willing to put in the time to grind those mundane tasks and obstacles to achieve something that can be bought with real money in a blink of an eye. This leaves only those willing to pay money to "win" really playing and even those who like easy wins get bored of such pointless game play eventually and move on.

So yes, PTW is a very strong component in why MMOs are failing. Not because of PTW specifically, but because PTW is ultimately just playing a game on cheat mode and everyone eventually gets bored with such pointless play.

That is what I have observed over the years. People are free to disagree. /shrug

This.

By degree, when the game becomes less and less of the product being "sold" and the store bought items which help circumvent playing the game become more of the product being sold, this issue becomes more and more apparent, and impacting.

[Pnumbra]

Actually, it is cheating, it is simply sanctioned cheating (ie they made pay cheating a part of the game). This type of cheating is circumventing game-play by paying real money to the developers. See, either you play the game, or you can pay the developers to bypass having to play the game.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense.

[Qhualor]

Yes, in that the ability to acquire the highest power tomes is first available in-game, and eventually available in the DDO Store as well. Steelstar and Severlin have already discussed drop rates, so I won't repeat that here.

despite my feelings and the fact that these P2W threads tend to turn into /popcorn threads with you ultimately closing them, I would like to say that I do appreciate the dev interaction. I don't remember the last time any kind of dev was willing to comment in these threads. im reading but I am biting my tongue and trying to avoid the drama and the baiting.

I do think though that tome drop rates should be seriously looked into and adjusted up, unless we can get official confirmation that all stat tomes are truly extremely rare intentionally.

[UurlockYgmeov]

The Update 28 adventure pack will continue the story of Arraetrikos and the war among the Demons, Devils, and Archons. Update 29 will include Epic Shroud along with a new adventure pack set in that area. Just to reiterate, we are not doing epic versions of Rainbow in the Dark, Running with the Devils, etc. That's always been the plan (to do Epic Shroud along with a new Epic level adventure pack.) So, depending on how you intended to define it, "EVale" remains in Update 29, although it was never planned to include updated epic versions of the current quests in the Vale of Twilight.

Thanks for the update!

—seems I was wrong about Mezz (the drow city) - and they must have changed their plans about including some FR content this year.

[cyreme]

Subjective definitions are meaningless. Words and meanings don't stop existing because someone chooses to ignore them. /shrug

Is YOUR definition subjective as well? Or is it somehow objective? Do elucidate :). And if it is subjective is it meaningless as well?

[cyreme]

The Update 28 adventure pack will continue the story of Arraetrikos and the war among the Demons, Devils, and Archons. Update 29 will include Epic Shroud along with a new adventure pack set in that area. Just to reiterate, we are not doing epic versions of Rainbow in the Dark, Running with the Devils, etc. That's always been the plan (to do Epic Shroud along with a new Epic level adventure pack.) So, depending on how you intended to define it, "EVale" remains in Update 29, although it was never planned to include updated epic versions of the current quests in the Vale of Twilight.

Thank you for giving us a bit of a sneak peek. Looking forward to it, especially to epic GS crafting.

[Tscheuss]

Subjective definitions are meaningless. Words and meanings don't stop existing because someone chooses to ignore them. /shrug

I am glad you came to see sense. Now let's all go have fun playing the game. :D

[Thrudh]

I see it as making any effort a waste of time. Why would I spend an enormous amount of time and effort attempting to gain something in game when I can pop down some cash and have it instantly? Then there is the fact that if something is that easily obtained, it really isn't worth much anyway and if things aren't worth much in the game, then what is the point of playing?

There's plenty of other things you can "grind for"...

Turbine has to sell SOMETHING in the store... Tomes seem like a good choice... Better than selling the latest raid loot, right?

[Xionanx]

There's plenty of other things you can "grind for"...

Turbine has to sell SOMETHING in the store... Tomes seem like a good choice... Better than selling the latest raid loot, right?

Honestly I'm surprised they dont sell more things:

XP Stones - That grant a flat amount of XP in 100k, 250k, 500k, 1mil XP etc.. for various amounts of TP. I know those would empty some peoples bank accounts fast. Why buy a XP Boost pot when you can drink straight from the tap?

Raid Loot - Why buy a bypass timer to repeat the same raid 20x in a few days, when you can just buy the loot outright.

Custom Crafted Gear - for the low low price of 5000k turbine points, you can create a magic item using a special "Crafting" App/Websight/etc..

Race Skins - Play as the race you want for stats, look like the race you want for "Style". now everyone can be a bladeforged but still look like a female elf.

so on and so forth..

these sound like jokes, but i know they would sell.

EDIT: And before people get angry and start screaming they would quit of Turbine sold XP outright.. try this, do every saga in the game Heroic and Epic, dont collect the rewards... drink a 50% XP pot, then collect the rewards.. then ask yourself if turbine isn't already selling XP.

[Silverleafeon]

I would like to say that I do appreciate the dev interaction. I don't remember the last time any kind of dev was willing to comment in these threads.

+1

[Chai]

There's plenty of other things you can "grind for"...

Turbine has to sell SOMETHING in the store... Tomes seem like a good choice... Better than selling the latest raid loot, right?

Tomes were a major reason people continued to run raids after they got the gear they wanted.

Before they made a correct decision and went back to BTA quest gear, raid loot was the last bastion of progress, the last hold out items, which were not sold in the store, or bought with store bought ASAH currency. Im surprised they haven't gone all out already. I mean, if the justification is "this is what keeps the lights on", and theres this much hand over fist support for p2w, why not just back up the truck?

[Xionanx]

Tomes were a major reason people continued to run raids after they got the gear they wanted.

Before they made a correct decision and went back to BTA quest gear, raid loot was the last bastion of progress, the last hold out items, which were not sold in the store, or bought with store bought ASAH currency. Im surprised they haven't gone all out already. I mean, if the justification is "this is what keeps the lights on", and theres this much hand over fist support for p2w, why not just back up the truck?

I wouldn't say there is major support for it. I look at it from a practical perspective, at least I think so, from the idea that; if we are going to play a F2P game, then they need to sell something, so why not things people actually want.

From a perspective of what "I" want; I would prefer a game with a monthly fee, that has been designed with a monthly fee in mind. Sadly, the game has gone so far into the F2P direction at this point, gating player power behind paywalls, that going back to a monthly fee would be major undertaking.

So.. in the vein of polishing a turd, I make suggestions (usually) that keep in mind the game is F2P, and that a good portion of that F2P is secreted away behind a paywall. You want the best items? You have to PAY for them by buying the newest quests, you want the best classes, you have to pay for them, you want the best races, you have to pay for them.. etc etc etc.

I think Turbine, for the most part, has struck a good balance between "FREE TO PLAY" and player expectations... contrast perfect world entertainment, or sony.. omg sony.. such horrible horrible greed.

EDIT: As the game is now, for a mere $0.50 a day you can be VIP, but even that doesn't get you through every paywall (and it should). Most of us spend more then 50cent a day on frivolous bs, but yet they couldn't keep subscribers. I too am guilty, as since they game has gone F2P I have subscribed for maybe a grand total of 3 months, a month here.. a month there. Only when there is something I want that VIP will give me cheaper then buying TP.

[Powskier]

DDo is just playing ya'll with the +7s

The Devs are continually upping enemy DCs so you "need '' the tome ,.....or so you may think

Better get the next ship buff they sell you too! slash LMFAO

[slarden]

Yes, in that the ability to acquire the highest power tomes is first available in-game, and eventually available in the DDO Store as well. Steelstar and Severlin have already discussed drop rates, so I won't repeat that here.

I don't think that is true. Specifically, you stopped including top-tier tomes as possible end rewards for 20th completion of end game raids.

[Sirea]

The Update 28 adventure pack will continue the story of Arraetrikos and the war among the Demons, Devils, and Archons. Update 29 will include Epic Shroud along with a new adventure pack set in that area. Just to reiterate, we are not doing epic versions of Rainbow in the Dark, Running with the Devils, etc. That's always been the plan (to do Epic Shroud along with a new Epic level adventure pack.) So, depending on how you intended to define it, "EVale" remains in Update 29, although it was never planned to include updated epic versions of the current quests in the Vale of Twilight.

Does this mean that the level cap increase has been pushed back to late 2015/early 2016?