Mind fog and other save reducing spells question

[redoubt]

I see a lot of people talk about buffing their DCs by using spells like mind fog. I look at it as a way to make it harder for mobs to break out once they are caught, but does it really improve your chances of initially landing a spell?

I ask that because it uses the exact same save as the spell you actually want to land. Thus, if they have enough will save to save vs disco or hold, won't they just save against the mind fog?

They have to FAIL a wlll save to have a debuff applied to their will save.

[Cordovan]

My understanding (and perhaps someone can correct me) is that any mob in the Mind Fog has a -10 penalty to their Will Save, and that penalty is negated by a successful Will Save. So, the Will Save to negate the Mind Fog is also done at -10.

[Hobgoblin]

My understanding (and perhaps someone can correct me) is that any mob in the Mind Fog has a -10 penalty to their Will Save, and that penalty is negated by a successful Will Save. So, the Will Save to negate the Mind Fog is also done at -10.

no.

if the save is say 50 normally for mind fog, they have to make a 50 will save.

if they make it, the following save is still 50

if they fail it, the following save is 40

make sense?

[Enoach]

My understanding (and perhaps someone can correct me) is that any mob in the Mind Fog has a -10 penalty to their Will Save, and that penalty is negated by a successful Will Save. So, the Will Save to negate the Mind Fog is also done at -10.

This is actually how I read it and understood how it worked as well as it appears to be my experience with using this spell.

Now this is simply my experience but I found in EE Content where my Mass Holds were failing to getting only a couple that when I set up mind fog I saw an increased amount of holds. Now since my DCs didn't change, it appears that this fog does reduce the will save first with a save at the penalty negating.

You can test this out in places like Stormhorn's Quests on EE where their Saves are High but don't have Spell Resistance (which can skew the numbers)

To me Mind Fog is the debuff of choice when working with Will Save spells.

[Hobgoblin]

gonna have to check this out.

was not working the other day

thanks eno

[Steve_Howe]

no.

if the save is say 50 normally for mind fog, they have to make a 50 will save.

if they make it, the following save is still 50

if they fail it, the following save is 40

make sense?

This is how it "should" work.

[slarden]

Mind Fog is as debuff so it effectively gives you a better chance to land the spell if you aren't at a "no fail" or "auto fail" DC.

If the enemy has a will save of 30 and you have a DC of 41:

Without a mind fog the enemy saves on a roll of 11 -20 and fails on a roll of 1-10 so you have a 50% success rate.

With mind fog the enemy must first roll a will save against mind fog at a 50% success rate. If they fail that their will save is reduced by 10 and then they make a will save against the cc spell. If they pass the will save against mind fog they then make a will save against the cc spell at their normal save.

So with mind fog you have a 50% chance of lowering their save to 20 which means they only save on a roll of 20 (auto succeed). Without mind fog they make the same save.

So basically mind fog increases your chances from 50% to:

50% * 95% + 50%*50% = 72.5%

Mind Fog has the best impact when you are between 50% and 90% success rate. If you are below 50% success rate you get very marginal returns from mind fog. For example, if you had a 25% success rate mind fog would only raise your success rate to 37.5%.

If you are at a no-fail DC mind fog adds no benefit since you always fail when the enemy rolls a 20. In other words, regardless of the result of mind fog, the cc works unless the enemy rolls a 20 so there is no sense using mind fog if you are already "no fail".

[Portalcat]

The way I think about Mind Fog is that when combined with enchantment CC, it gives you 2 chances to beat the save instead of 1. It's not quite that good, but if your enchantment DC isn't high enough to beat the saves at least half the time already, then it's questionably viable as a strategy to begin with.

[Tlorrd]

I see a lot of people talk about buffing their DCs by using spells like mind fog. I look at it as a way to make it harder for mobs to break out once they are caught, but does it really improve your chances of initially landing a spell?

I ask that because it uses the exact same save as the spell you actually want to land. Thus, if they have enough will save to save vs disco or hold, won't they just save against the mind fog?

They have to FAIL a wlll save to have a debuff applied to their will save.

Because of this, Crushing Despair is the best will save debuff in the game. It gives you a NO FAIL -5 to will saves and is an AOE spell. This debuff lasts for 15 seconds and you get the same results even if you use a crushing despair scroll (which are available at vendors). If the mob(s) fail the save on crushing despair, you get an additional -2 to saves for up to -7 will save debuff. Thus to me Crushing Despair is great.

[dunklezhan]

Because of this, Crushing Despair is the best will save debuff in the game. It gives you a NO FAIL -5 to will saves and is an AOE spell. This debuff lasts for 15 seconds and you get the same results even if you use a crushing despair scroll (which are available at vendors). If the mob(s) fail the save on crushing despair, you get an additional -2 to saves for up to -7 will save debuff. Thus to me Crushing Despair is great.

Hypnotism (auto -3 to will saves, if you're very lucky some mobs might even get mezzed if they roll a 1) is amazing bang for the buck because its so cheap to cast. That's not to say you shouldn't load CD as well for particularly tough mobs or if your hypno isn't working, but I'd probably always start off the quest with Hypno just to test the water.

Edit: it is possible that CD and Hypno stack (Hypno is a competence penalty, I think CD is untyped). If so, together that's a -8. CD + hypno I know would cost 30 SP assuming no metas. How much is a mind fog? I assume its more than CD because its 1 spell level higher but I'm not sure of the SP cost (its not listed on wiki). I wonder because it occurs to me that other than the time cost, a CD +hypno might give you a guaranteed -8 will save and a chance to mez and further debuff some mobs, for less than the cost of just the chance for a mob to take a -10 will save from Mind Fog. I think it almost certainly is better, because eventually you'll have to start heightening mind fog, which will pump its cost. You'll never need to do that with CD and Hypno because you are really only after the auto debuff. The other effects that only work most likely when a mob rolls a 1 are just gravy really.

[Braegan]

no.

if the save is say 50 normally for mind fog, they have to make a 50 will save.

if they make it, the following save is still 50

if they fail it, the following save is 40

make sense?

This is how I understand the spell to work as well.

Hypno and Crushing Despair are nice lead into spells as they wander into the Mind Fog.

[BD_]

Mind fog's debuff to will save lasts considerably longer than the short term debuffs to will save from hypno, and crushing despair (when the save is made against crushing despair). The debuff to will save from a failed save against crushing despair also lasts quite a while.

One way I use mind fog is when I have about a 50-80% success rate on mass hold and want to make sure not only that the mass hold hits as many as possible, but also that the mass hold lasts longer. Sure, it would work to make the mass hold land 95% of the time by tossing hypno and/or crushing despair and then mass hold, but shortly after the debuff from hypno and crushing despair will fade and mobs will then often make their subsequent saves against mass hold. If you hit them with mind fog while the debuffs from hypno and/or crushing despair are still on them - then you get a longer lasting debuff (as long as they remain in it) to will save and mass hold will usually last it's full duration instead of lasting for a shorter duration.

[Seikojin]

And these are some of the reasons why I don't see a need to adjust mob saves.

[Braegan]

And these are some of the reasons why I don't see a need to adjust mob saves.

Show me how a divine caster can debuff up to -18 and I would agree with you.

#waiting

[PsychoBlonde]

Edit: it is possible that CD and Hypno stack (Hypno is a competence penalty, I think CD is untyped).

Crushing Despair is a Morale penalty. It's the opposite of Heroism, basically. So, yes, they should stack.

[SirValentine]

Show me how a divine caster can debuff up to -18 and I would agree with you.

#waiting

Energy Drain, followed by another Energy Drain? Yeah, just single-target, and maybe not a very efficient use of either time or SP, but possible in theory. Not out of the question for the rare Orange-named boss who really is a rare boss.

[davmuzl]

Everybody I ever talked to said that they have to fail the mobs have to fail the will save first un order to get the -10 penalty. If it actually worked from the start it would be amazing. The thing is just that there are enough ways to push your already good saves to the point where you get to a no fail like situation, but there are no good ways to make up for a bad DC.

[redoubt]

And these are some of the reasons why I don't see a need to adjust mob saves.

Do debuffs work? Yes and no.

They do work, but the durations and the regen of mobs on epic mean that frequently each mob must be debuffed individually. Even with mass debuffs, the affect of the debuff can wear off before you get back to that mob to apply your DC spell.

If some of the regen from the epic ward was removed, then the debuffs would work better and I might agree with you.

From the wiki:

Epic enemies have massive amounts of experience against adventurers that form an Epic Ward against many attack types.

Epic enemies have special attributes that give them a good chance to ignore stat damage effects, allow them to regenerate negative levels quicker than standard creatures and prevent them from being charmed for long periods.
Ability damage - Effects such as Slicing Blow or Crippling Strike are less effective, as are Wounding, Puncturing, Weakening, Enfeebling Epic Elite: 50% chance to ignore ability score damage
Epic Hard: 33% chance to ignore ability score damage
Epic Normal/Casual: no special defenses against ability damage

Epic enemies break out of charm-type spells faster than non-epic quests. Charms have roughly 1/8th to 1/16th their normal duration. Bug: Shining Star takes full effect

Epic enemies recover from Negative levels faster than in non-epic quests 1 negative level every 3 seconds (versus 2 minutes on non-epic) DDO Forums Enervation, Energy Drain still work normally
The damage that negative levels deal does not heal when the negative level expires

Orange Named enemies with epic ward gain the effects of deathblock Orange Named only. All other types (called minions in epic) do not have deathblock and may be insta-killed.

Stun and other effects that render enemies helpless work as intended. Stat damaging effects are near useless but some mobs still can be made helpless by STR/DEX debuff from Waves of Exhaustion and Strength Sapping combo. This is particularly helpful on orange named, as they are quite tough on epic and do gain the effects of deathblock.

Movement speed reduction Crippling - Works normally
Hamstring, Tendon Slice - Works normally
Limb Chopper works normally, even on many orange-named monsters with Epic Ward (confirmed with devils in Epic Chronoscope)


Update 9 has reduced the hit points of non-boss enemies in Epic quests and raids, while increasing their saving throws. This was done en masse by modifying the minion debuff that all non-named Epic monsters suffer. It's believed to lower hit points by -50%, and saving throws by only -1.

[Wh070aa]

My understanding (and perhaps someone can correct me) is that any mob in the Mind Fog has a -10 penalty to their Will Save, and that penalty is negated by a successful Will Save. So, the Will Save to negate the Mind Fog is also done at -10.

Unless something is changed since I last played wizard, it does not work that way. I newer landed Mind Fog with more success than any other spell, and -10 should noticeably increase the success of landing it. They make a save to not take the -10. There are no ticks for the spell, so I assume it does the calculations on entering, in witch case applying -10 before applying the effect(that gives the -10) would not make much sense.

[Eth]

Best will debuffs are hypnotism (-3) and crushing despair (-5 or -7 if they fail).
Those debuffs are applied even on a save.



And these are some of the reasons why I don't see a need to adjust mob saves.
Yea right, debuffs don't cost SP. Oh wait, they do.

[Eth]

Show me how a divine caster can debuff up to -18 and I would agree with you.

#waiting

Shadows upon you + 2 x magic missile from wizard past life is -20. Yes, it's single target, it's slow and impractical :D

[Lorianus]

[QUOTE=Cordovan;5664549]My understanding (and perhaps someone can correct me) is that any mob in the Mind Fog has a -10 penalty to their Will Save, and that penalty is negated by a successful Will Save. So, the Will Save to negate the Mind Fog is also done at -10.[/QUOTE

IF it would work like that I would cast Mind Fog all the time. Instead I use Hypno and Fear for their "debuff on successful save" part. That's -5 to will saves for 4! seconds, so you better be quick with the holds. Epic crowd controll casting is such a fun these days.

[Braegan]

Energy Drain, followed by another Energy Drain? Yeah, just single-target, and maybe not a very efficient use of either time or SP, but possible in theory. Not out of the question for the rare Orange-named boss who really is a rare boss.


Shadows upon you + 2 x magic missile from wizard past life is -20. Yes, it's single target, it's slow and impractical :D

Doh! I knew I should have worded that better.

My response was towards a post saying mob saves don't need to be touched since there are means to debuff so much. However, that department is greatly favored by arcanes with more tools to play with. And don't get me wrong I am not hating on arcanes, I'm just saying all isn't fine. :)

[slarden]

Energy Drain, followed by another Energy Drain? Yeah, just single-target, and maybe not a very efficient use of either time or SP, but possible in theory. Not out of the question for the rare Orange-named boss who really is a rare boss.

I typically do this on orange name even with no plans to use cc because it's the single quickest way to get an orange named enemy lower on hp on EE.

[DDOKillingMachine]

And these are some of the reasons why I don't see a need to adjust mob saves.

That just means that you don't actually understand what the problem with monster saves is.

[Tlorrd]

Show me how a divine caster can debuff up to -18 and I would agree with you.

#waiting

actually I routinely debuff Bosses to -18 or -19 saves ... here's how.

Shadows Upon You (T3 from Exalted Angel) gives up to -10 saves

then I cast Bestow Curse, gives you additional -4 saves

then I cast Symbol of Pain, gives an additional -4 saves

and if I feel like it, cast Prayer, gives an additional -1 saves

Thus total is -19 saves or -18 w/o Prayer.

[Cordovan]

Thanks, everyone, for an interesting discussion. I do stand corrected. Checking with a dev who looked at it in the code, the mob does indeed get a standard will save and only gets the -10 if they fail it.


Because of this, Crushing Despair is the best will save debuff in the game. It gives you a NO FAIL -5 to will saves and is an AOE spell. This debuff lasts for 15 seconds and you get the same results even if you use a crushing despair scroll (which are available at vendors). If the mob(s) fail the save on crushing despair, you get an additional -2 to saves for up to -7 will save debuff. Thus to me Crushing Despair is great.


Hypnotism (auto -3 to will saves, if you're very lucky some mobs might even get mezzed if they roll a 1) is amazing bang for the buck because its so cheap to cast. That's not to say you shouldn't load CD as well for particularly tough mobs or if your hypno isn't working, but I'd probably always start off the quest with Hypno just to test the water.

Edit: it is possible that CD and Hypno stack (Hypno is a competence penalty, I think CD is untyped). If so, together that's a -8. CD + hypno I know would cost 30 SP assuming no metas. How much is a mind fog? I assume its more than CD because its 1 spell level higher but I'm not sure of the SP cost (its not listed on wiki). I wonder because it occurs to me that other than the time cost, a CD +hypno might give you a guaranteed -8 will save and a chance to mez and further debuff some mobs, for less than the cost of just the chance for a mob to take a -10 will save from Mind Fog. I think it almost certainly is better, because eventually you'll have to start heightening mind fog, which will pump its cost. You'll never need to do that with CD and Hypno because you are really only after the auto debuff. The other effects that only work most likely when a mob rolls a 1 are just gravy really.


Crushing Despair is a Morale penalty. It's the opposite of Heroism, basically. So, yes, they should stack.

Hot tipz for your weekend. :)

[dunklezhan]

Hot tipz for your weekend. :)

My hot tipz for Varg or someones: Mind Fog - eez not so good. Fix pl0x :p

[Hobgoblin]

actually I routinely debuff Bosses to -18 or -19 saves ... here's how.

Shadows Upon You (T3 from Exalted Angel) gives up to -10 saves

then I cast Bestow Curse, gives you additional -4 saves

then I cast Symbol of Pain, gives an additional -4 saves

and if I feel like it, cast Prayer, gives an additional -1 saves

Thus total is -19 saves or -18 w/o Prayer.

so you is spending about what 50 or so sp? just to debuff one mob? then the around 50 sp for destruction?

so 100 sp to kill one mob , then move on?

seems worth it. :)

[Enoach]

Thanks, everyone, for an interesting discussion. I do stand corrected. Checking with a dev who looked at it in the code, the mob does indeed get a standard will save and only gets the -10 if they fail it.







Hot tipz for your weekend. :)

I must be in the higher success rate then I thought. I know in the new content quests I was struggling with the Revers (not spell pen seeing the save) but when I used mind fog my successes took on a dramatic increase.

I use hypno as a cheap debuff, I may need to look at crushing despair and symbol of pain again. While I like curse the cost on a large group is rough.

Thanks all, this has helped me understand this spell even better.

[Tlorrd]

so you is spending about what 50 or so sp? just to debuff one mob? then the around 50 sp for destruction?

so 100 sp to kill one mob , then move on?

seems worth it. :)

Actually as my post stated, I use that combo on Bosses, not regular mobs. Regular mobs are much easier to kill with other combinations of spells and scrolls. There is no easy button for divine casters like warlock. There are many strategies to use and most people do not realize how extensive their spell list really is and the potential of those spells.

[Lallajulia]

when you play cc caster, you have to think more complex and ahead with mentioned crushing despair, hypno, mind fog(remember to heigten it and quicken) combination and only then drop main mass cc spell.

problem with current battle situation is, that when you cast all that debuff chain to set final cc spell, crowd you want to affect is dead already or almost dead. that means, all efforts(time and sp) are wasted, not mention last sp expensive-metamized cc spell is wasted aswell. thats why players dropped that role too. sad, but no need cc casters atm. only if you very wish that, otherwise its almost pointless with all these warlocks running around dropping entire entropy on everything.

[patang01]

when you play cc caster, you have to think more complex and ahead with mentioned crushing despair, hypno, mind fog(remember to heigten it and quicken) combination and only then drop main mass cc spell.

problem with current battle situation is, that when you cast all that debuff chain to set final cc spell, crowd you want to affect is dead already or almost dead. that means, all efforts(time and sp) are wasted, not mention last sp expensive-metamized cc spell is wasted aswell. thats why players dropped that role too. sad, but no need cc casters atm. only if you very wish that, otherwise its almost pointless with all these warlocks running around dropping entire entropy on everything.

Imagine for level 29 and 30 the ability to combine spells with the added delay of say a third of subsequent spells.

So lets say you add up to 2 (3 for level 30) spells together - CD first, hold second. Or for 30, CD, MF and third hold. you define the order they drop, and each additional spell adds a third of what they would normally take to cast.

Cost wise it's the same as casting all three separately. It would add another layer for people who want to play CC, it's not making everything overall more powerful compared to launching things separately but it would address in a small way the frustration of casting all these spells just to have someone move in and burst and cleave everything to death.

Any spell too - CD, hold and fireball? Done.

[Wipey]

Imagine for level 29 and 30 the ability to combine spells with the added delay of say a third of subsequent spells.

It was called spell sequencer in BG or NWN I think ?
Problem with ddo is that spell won't register if you combine them too fast. Hypno-Despair-Mass Hold really quick, and nothing happens except you lose spell points ha.


There are many strategies to use and most people do not realize how extensive their spell list really is and the potential of those spells.
So what spell combo from awesome divine spell list do you suggest for U 27 trash except BB kiting and Divine Wrath or Energy Burst for half damage ?

[Hobgoblin]

Actually as my post stated, I use that combo on Bosses, not regular mobs. Regular mobs are much easier to kill with other combinations of spells and scrolls. There is no easy button for divine casters like warlock. There are many strategies to use and most people do not realize how extensive their spell list really is and the potential of those spells.

you mean boss? which are immune to most of what you named?

[Braegan]

actually I routinely debuff Bosses to -18 or -19 saves ... here's how.

Shadows Upon You (T3 from Exalted Angel) gives up to -10 saves

then I cast Bestow Curse, gives you additional -4 saves

then I cast Symbol of Pain, gives an additional -4 saves

and if I feel like it, cast Prayer, gives an additional -1 saves

Thus total is -19 saves or -18 w/o Prayer.

Shadows Upon You has been mentioned a couple times now.

It can provide up to that amount, provided you hit fast with spells and get the killing spell off before the Decay of increments begins to set in. They decay 1 every five seconds. So by the time you have amped Shadows to full charge, and then go and cast three more spells you have most likely lost a few ticks anyways. Not to mention that is an extreme amount of SP being used in a single encounter.

Further note, the -18 number was mentioned earlier as Arcanes getting that high. In that breakdown it was only heroic spells being used. Magister also has debuffs so that gap is even wider when you compare them both on an equal platform. Even moreso, low hanging fruit in Archmage Tree allows you to very easily get one of those very fast cast Debuffs for low sp Sla style.

I realize I am going a bit off topic right now. But it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when folks talk about balancing DCs and Mob saves and Divines are often left out of the discussion and are behind as it is. A true spell pass is needed to provide equal ways for Arcanes and Divines to hit nearly the same DCs and then you can talk about balancing the achievable DCs versus the mob saves. Because right now the scales are not balanced.

[Tlorrd]

you mean boss? which are immune to most of what you named?

Bosses are not immune to any that I mentioned ... They are affected by shadows upon you, bestow curse, symbol of pain, and prayer.

[Tlorrd]

Shadows Upon You has been mentioned a couple times now.

It can provide up to that amount, provided you hit fast with spells and get the killing spell off before the Decay of increments begins to set in. They decay 1 every five seconds. So by the time you have amped Shadows to full charge, and then go and cast three more spells you have most likely lost a few ticks anyways. Not to mention that is an extreme amount of SP being used in a single encounter.

Further note, the -18 number was mentioned earlier as Arcanes getting that high. In that breakdown it was only heroic spells being used. Magister also has debuffs so that gap is even wider when you compare them both on an equal platform. Even moreso, low hanging fruit in Archmage Tree allows you to very easily get one of those very fast cast Debuffs for low sp Sla style.

I realize I am going a bit off topic right now. But it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when folks talk about balancing DCs and Mob saves and Divines are often left out of the discussion and are behind as it is. A true spell pass is needed to provide equal ways for Arcanes and Divines to hit nearly the same DCs and then you can talk about balancing the achievable DCs versus the mob saves. Because right now the scales are not balanced.

While I agree some, a blade barrier or any symbol that you kite mobs through can effectively proc magister augmentation for any type of save debuff since symbols can be evocation, enchantment, or necromancy.

Also with regards to shadows upon you, while in a group it gets to -10 saves almost instantly and within a few seconds while soloing, that is when you cast the other debuffs so that they hit. And those others last longer than 5 mins. Then you only need to cast shadows again if you need that extra save debuff. It is useful against bosses and other semi-bosses who have tons of HP.

[Braegan]

While I agree some, a blade barrier or any symbol that you kite mobs through can effectively proc magister augmentation for any type of save debuff since symbols can be evocation, enchantment, or necromancy.

Also with regards to shadows upon you, while in a group it gets to -10 saves almost instantly and within a few seconds while soloing, that is when you cast the other debuffs so that they hit. And those others last longer than 5 mins. Then you only need to cast shadows again if you need that extra save debuff. It is useful against bosses and other semi-bosses who have tons of HP.

I hear what you are saying. But in my experience with melee I have run with if they hit something 10 times it is usually dead or so close to death that me casting an instakill is just dumb at that point. I tend to use instakill spells for mobs at or near full health to make the most of that spell. Throwing a debuff that relies on damage to take place to further the debuff which results in the mob dead or near dead means why am I even casting in the first place?

Debuffing bosses can be nice to mitigate some damage but isn't quite on the same topic as debuffing so we can kill trash mobs.

I just want a proper spell pass done that includes both Arcane and Divine casters.

[Tlorrd]

I hear what you are saying. But in my experience with melee I have run with if they hit something 10 times it is usually dead or so close to death that me casting an instakill is just dumb at that point. I tend to use instakill spells for mobs at or near full health to make the most of that spell. Throwing a debuff that relies on damage to take place to further the debuff which results in the mob dead or near dead means why am I even casting in the first place?

Debuffing bosses can be nice to mitigate some damage but isn't quite on the same topic as debuffing so we can kill trash mobs.

I just want a proper spell pass done that includes both Arcane and Divine casters.

I also agree with you about proper spell pass. Debuffing bosses is not about damage mitigation. It is about having your (and your group's attacks) gain more dps by having the boss fail its saves against your (and your group's) spells, special attacks, etc.

Destruction/Slay Living: For divines I really try to use the appropriate spell against a mob whose weakest save is against that spell type. Our spell point managment is so paramount since most any CC or instakill spell needs to be heightened on EEs. So when I know mobs have low fort saves, I use destruction/slay living. The only debuff I may use if I really want to instakill a single mob with moderate/high fort saves are cause fear (no fail -2 saves) and prayer (-1 saves), I can quick cast one or the other and then my instakill. But both of those spells heightened cost too many spell points IMO. Additionally I make sure that I have the appropriate spell power item to maximize damage in case they make the save. My destruction crits for 2-2.5k.

Implosion: If I want an AOE instakill, then I scroll scare (again -2 saves no fail as long as they're not immune to fear) and/or prayer and then cast implosion.

Banishment/Dismissal/Undeath to Death: Are all also great instakills and use will as their save. If you need a debuff, cast crushing despair quick and then one of these. You'd be surprised to see that undead also suffer the -5 will save debuff from crushing despair.

If I am in a group that is mowing things quickly, I don't worry about my instakills and just cast some CC stuff like Greater Command (Enlightened Spirit Warlocks love this, they can just stroll over and do their thing without worrying about getting squished). Cometfall/Soundburst SLA stop mob casters in their tracks. Holy Smite/Order's Wrath defeat anything with spell resistance.

Now since Warlock got Finger of Death as an SLA for only 15sp a pop (which is ludicrous). Then I would think that when divines get a pass, destruction or slay living would become an SLA.

One could even surmise that my group mates are glorified hirelings killing what I CC! ;)

[Braegan]

I also agree with you about proper spell pass. Debuffing bosses is not about damage mitigation. It is about having your (and your group's attacks) gain more dps by having the boss fail its saves against your (and your group's) spells, special attacks, etc.

Destruction/Slay Living: For divines I really try to use the appropriate spell against a mob whose weakest save is against that spell type. Our spell point managment is so paramount since most any CC or instakill spell needs to be heightened on EEs. So when I know mobs have low fort saves, I use destruction/slay living. The only debuff I may use if I really want to instakill a single mob with moderate/high fort saves are cause fear (no fail -2 saves) and prayer (-1 saves), I can quick cast one or the other and then my instakill. But both of those spells heightened cost too many spell points IMO. Additionally I make sure that I have the appropriate spell power item to maximize damage in case they make the save. My destruction crits for 2-2.5k.

Implosion: If I want an AOE instakill, then I scroll scare (again -2 saves no fail as long as they're not immune to fear) and/or prayer and then cast implosion.

Banishment/Dismissal/Undeath to Death: Are all also great instakills and use will as their save. If you need a debuff, cast crushing despair quick and then one of these. You'd be surprised to see that undead also suffer the -5 will save debuff from crushing despair.

If I am in a group that is mowing things quickly, I don't worry about my instakills and just cast some CC stuff like Greater Command (Enlightened Spirit Warlocks love this, they can just stroll over and do their thing without worrying about getting squished). Cometfall/Soundburst SLA stop mob casters in their tracks. Holy Smite/Order's Wrath defeat anything with spell resistance.

Now since Warlock got Finger of Death as an SLA for only 15sp a pop (which is ludicrous). Then I would think that when divines get a pass, destruction or slay living would become an SLA.

One could even surmise that my group mates are glorified hirelings killing what I CC! ;)

In regards to boss debuffing. To be honest I haven't been concerned with that since LoB and cap level 20. When fighting a boss you are usually using no save DPS spells, DoTs or just doing damage. Debuffs on bosses just isn't as important as it used to be.

Regarding using the weakest save. Sadly, there just isn't the wiggle room for Divines as there are for Arcanes. Clerics are pushed into Necro or Evo FvS are Evo. That is what you get from your enhancements. Frankly, I do not see the ability to target mobs weak saves as much on a Divine as I do on an Arcane due to lack of spell choices. I do play both.

I never thought to scroll Scare. Not a bad idea. I do use Doom which is mostly same effect and requires less swapping items.

I would be interested to know how well you land Greater Command as well as tote the other schools in DCs worthy of EE. Usually Enchantment is skipped as it's harder to reach those numbers on a Divine while keeping a good Evo and Necro up and going. Soundburst Sla has much lower DC for me than the Spell due to past lives and such. It is great twist on my bard but my FvS does better with the spell.

So yeah I would like to see your build and maybe a vid of performance if I can be so bold to ask.

[SirValentine]

Banishment/Dismissal/Undeath to Death: Are all also great instakills and use will as their save.


Undeath to Death is awesome, and I think often underrated. Dismiss/Banish work great...in Heroic. But with them not using a normal save, but instead a hit-dice check, I find them useless in EE due to mob-hit-dice-bloat.

[SirValentine]

But it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when folks talk about balancing DCs and Mob saves and Divines are often left out of the discussion and are behind as it is. A true spell pass is needed to provide equal ways for Arcanes and Divines to hit nearly the same DCs and then you can talk about balancing the achievable DCs versus the mob saves. Because right now the scales are not balanced.


+1 & /signed

We've got five different full 9-spell-level caster classes in DDO, not just two. Plus three more hybrid caster classes.

[Tlorrd]

[QUOTE]In regards to boss debuffing. To be honest I haven't been concerned with that since LoB and cap level 20. When fighting a boss you are usually using no save DPS spells, DoTs or just doing damage. Debuffs on bosses just isn't as important as it used to be.

So I am usually a WIS based build and i want to use the abilities in EDs that use WIS as their modifier since they give me better dmg profile than say energy burst since that is INT/CHA based. Thus things like ...

Tsunami (when I get both forced and cold to hit, I'm criting for 6k), can hit multiple mobs if you move like an Archer, 7 sec cooldown, free metamagics.
Sunbolt SLA
Divine wrath
Harm (not ED I know), but is highly underrated. Based on will save, bypasses spell resistance, a clerics maxed out heal skill is a huge benefit to the spell power.
Forced escape (although sonic, you can empower/maximize, etc for free like tsunami, and unlike ruin/hellball)


never thought to scroll Scare. Not a bad idea. I do use Doom which is mostly same effect and requires less swapping items.

I would use cause fear over doom. I want mobs to make their save against cause fear because I get the -2 save debuff anyways and they don't run away; if they make the save against doom, you get nothing.

I
would be interested to know how well you land Greater Command as well as tote the other schools in DCs worthy of EE. Usually Enchantment is skipped as it's harder to reach those numbers on a Divine while keeping a good Evo and Necro up and going. Soundburst Sla has much lower DC for me than the Spell due to past lives and such. It is great twist on my bard but my FvS does better with the spell.

This is true, but for 6 spell points you can easily spam it( sound burst SLA) with relatively ok DC if your WIS is high, rather than the 50 some spell points for a heightened Soundburst.

If you build enchantment build, feats and twists in EA are spell focus, greater spell focus, arcane past life ( helps all DCs), and bard past life, epic spell focus, magister +3, EA +3. That is + 10 there and add another +1 if your some type of elf, sun elf, drow.


So yeah I would like to see your build and maybe a vid of performance if I can be so bold to ask.

Will post something soon.

[Braegan]

So I am usually a WIS based build and i want to use the abilities in EDs that use WIS as their modifier since they give me better dmg profile than say energy burst since that is INT/CHA based. Thus things like ...

Tsunami (when I get both forced and cold to hit, I'm criting for 6k), can hit multiple mobs if you move like an Archer, 7 sec cooldown, free metamagics.
Sunbolt SLA
Divine wrath
Harm (not ED I know), but is highly underrated. Based on will save, bypasses spell resistance, a clerics maxed out heal skill is a huge benefit to the spell power.
Forced escape (although sonic, you can empower/maximize, etc for free like tsunami, and unlike ruin/hellball)



I would use cause fear over doom. I want mobs to fail their save against cause fear because I get the -2 save debuff anyways, if they make the save against doom, you get nothing.

I

This is true, but for 6 spell points you can easily spam it( sound burst SLA) with relatively ok DC if your WIS is high, rather than the 50 some spell points for a heightened Soundburst.

If you build enchantment build, feats and twists in EA are spell focus, greater spell focus, arcane past life ( helps all DCs), and bard past life, epic spell focus, magister +3, EA +3. That is + 10 there and add another +1 if your some type of elf, sun elf, drow.



Will post something soon.

- Seems like a common rotation of spell useage. However, none of those are debuffs so not sure why you responded with that to my position that debuffs are not as needed on boss mobs like they used to be.

- Yes, I know. However it does require swapping to a scroll, using scroll (maybe failing concentration check), swapping back to normal weapon set and then casting your DC spell. Doom, does have a save but it's a Will save that helps to lower especially Fort saves which are most common for Divines Instakill spell roster. It is one of the few times a Divine can target a weak save, so I use it. It's also a popular school (necromancy) so I tend to have some investment in that school to have a respectable DC in.

- True you can spam the Sla. And that is something that differs on builds. As I said my Bard uses it because her DC with the Sla and Spell make the Sla worth using. My FvS has a much higher DC on the spell and while it costs more SP to cast I fell a more reliable version and saving enhancement points for other things seems a more worthwhile set up to me.

- That's not what I asked. I asked how you are able to get a meaningful Enchantment DC while maintaining a meaningful DC in at least one of Evocation or Necromancy. If you are burning most feats and twists on Enchantment than your Evocation and Necromancy schools will be tanked. Furthermore, there are 11 Enchantment spells in the Divine roster...nearly half of those are buffs. Of the remaining you have a couple symbols, a debuff or two, command, hold person and greater command. By and large that is a very bad school for a divine to focus on. Speccing a build for one spell isn't something I would recommend.

- I look forward to reading it.

[Tlorrd]

- [QUOTE]Seems like a common rotation of spell useage. However, none of those are debuffs so not sure why you responded with that to my position that debuffs are not as needed on boss mobs like they used to be.

Yes while none of those spells are debuffs, they require a save against and thus the debuffs previously mentioned (shadows, bestow curse, symbol of pain, prayer) will debuff a boss so that those spells (Tsunami, Divine Wrath, Sunbolt, Forced Escape, etc) will not be saved against (or rather have a much lower chance of being saved against) and have much more DPS potential than if a Boss is not debuffed. To me those spells do much more damage than normal clerical/fvs spells while being able to be metamagicked (spelling?) w/o additional cost.


- Yes, I know. However it does require swapping to a scroll, using scroll (maybe failing concentration check), swapping back to normal weapon set and then casting your DC spell. Doom, does have a save but it's a Will save that helps to lower especially Fort saves which are most common for Divines Instakill spell roster. It is one of the few times a Divine can target a weak save, so I use it. It's also a popular school (necromancy) so I tend to have some investment in that school to have a respectable DC in.

Cause Fear is a normal spell in cleric/fvs spell list so it does not require a scroll (Scare does require a scroll). It is also a Necromancy spell and thus your necro bonus will help it land the fear aspect. The shaken aspect lands regardless of save. Doom requires a failed save to have any effect, thus I think Cause Fear > Doom.


- True you can spam the Sla. And that is something that differs on builds. As I said my Bard uses it because her DC with the Sla and Spell make the Sla worth using. My FvS has a much higher DC on the spell and while it costs more SP to cast I fell a more reliable version and saving enhancement points for other things seems a more worthwhile set up to me.

We can agree that we each have a different perspective on this SLA.


- That's not what I asked. I asked how you are able to get a meaningful Enchantment DC while maintaining a meaningful DC in at least one of Evocation or Necromancy. If you are burning most feats and twists on Enchantment than your Evocation and Necromancy schools will be tanked. Furthermore, there are 11 Enchantment spells in the Divine roster...nearly half of those are buffs. Of the remaining you have a couple symbols, a debuff or two, command, hold person and greater command. By and large that is a very bad school for a divine to focus on. Speccing a build for one spell isn't something I would recommend.

I agree that speccing for one build is a bad idea. My evocation spells, especially implosion lands quite a bit even w/o many other boosts other than EA +3, arcane past life +1, deific +2 if needed, Sorc past life x3 for +3. On EE it is not no fail, but I pick and choose when to use it to maximize its potential. I just mentioned all those ways to boost enchantment so that if someone wanted to, they could be a full support like toon (DPS is abysmal, I know), but it can be done and effectively. Also someone could take spell focus in 2 different schools such as evocation/enchantment and twist magister enchantment and draconic evocation specialist and be in exalted angel for boosts to both schools. I agree that is also using a lot of feats, but one could go that route if they like.
Also on a side note, Greater Command and Symbol of Stunning act very differently in who they can effect. Certain mobs that are immune to Greater Command are not immune to Symbol of Stunning and symbols have no recurring saves like other CC spells (Hold Monster, Command, etc) and remain in effect for their duration.

As I tinker with my build I come upon a few realizations IMHO. If I wish to solo EEs, there are few key elements that a caster toon needs
- Spell power
- Hit points
- Spell points
- DCs are last on this list. Since they are spell point expensive and have no guarantee.

I usually go Pure Cleric 20 for capstone bonus to Wisdom, but I may try the 18/2 or 17/3 Cleric/FVS to get Just Rewards and couple that with my Halcyon Boots to regenerate spell points as much as possible and see where that goes.

[Braegan]

Implosion: If I want an AOE instakill, then I scroll scare






Yes while none of those spells are debuffs, they require a save against and thus the debuffs previously mentioned (shadows, bestow curse, symbol of pain, prayer) will debuff a boss so that those spells (Tsunami, Divine Wrath, Sunbolt, Forced Escape, etc) will not be saved against (or rather have a much lower chance of being saved against) and have much more DPS potential than if a Boss is not debuffed. To me those spells do much more damage than normal clerical/fvs spells while being able to be metamagicked (spelling?) w/o additional cost.



Cause Fear is a normal spell in cleric/fvs spell list so it does not require a scroll (Scare does require a scroll). It is also a Necromancy spell and thus your necro bonus will help it land the fear aspect. The shaken aspect lands regardless of save. Doom requires a failed save to have any effect, thus I think Cause Fear > Doom.



We can agree that we each have a different perspective on this SLA.



I agree that speccing for one build is a bad idea. My evocation spells, especially implosion lands quite a bit even w/o many other boosts other than EA +3, arcane past life +1, deific +2 if needed, Sorc past life x3 for +3. On EE it is not no fail, but I pick and choose when to use it to maximize its potential. I just mentioned all those ways to boost enchantment so that if someone wanted to, they could be a full support like toon (DPS is abysmal, I know), but it can be done and effectively. Also someone could take spell focus in 2 different schools such as evocation/enchantment and twist magister enchantment and draconic evocation specialist and be in exalted angel for boosts to both schools. I agree that is also using a lot of feats, but one could go that route if they like.
Also on a side note, Greater Command and Symbol of Stunning act very differently in who they can effect. Certain mobs that are immune to Greater Command are not immune to Symbol of Stunning and symbols have no recurring saves like other CC spells (Hold Monster, Command, etc) and remain in effect for their duration.

As I tinker with my build I come upon a few realizations IMHO. If I wish to solo EEs, there are few key elements that a caster toon needs
- Spell power
- Hit points
- Spell points
- DCs are last on this list. Since they are spell point expensive and have no guarantee.

I usually go Pure Cleric 20 for capstone bonus to Wisdom, but I may try the 18/2 or 17/3 Cleric/FVS to get Just Rewards and couple that with my Halcyon Boots to regenerate spell points as much as possible and see where that goes.

- Ah that explains it a bit better. Ok I can see the reason then.

- Ok see above quote. I was confused because first you said you scrolled Scare and now you are saying Cause Fear. I am sure you can see where I was confused reading your posts now.

- Sure, as I said it is different for each build with different pl, gear, etc and of course expected return on investment. Personally if I need to spam something and hope it lands, it ain't worth spending points on.

- Indeed you can split your schools. Most divines I know would focus on one or split Evocation and Necromancy, however. Mostly due to the fact that those are the two bread and butter schools. Enchantment with its only couple of useful spells isn't worth the effort.

- As I have also tinkered a lot and solod some EE's I have found DCs to be near top. Clearing a room of trash is proper mana conservation, unless you want to kite through blade barrier for what feels like forever. Boss fights in quests are just dot and nuke. But getting to that boss efficiently is key to me. Having the DCs to clear a room with one spell in seconds is worth the investment. Not to mention, Implosion the flagship aoe instakill shares the same school as Soundburst which is now great CC and a fantastic start to finish with an energy burst or w/e. I too favor pures, False is a pure FvS. However, a 17 Clr/3 FvS is a very strong build.