Warlock is way overpowered....

[Enderoc]

An attack that does 9D6 damage enhanced by spellpower regardless if it is a critical or sneak attack is a bit insane if you ask me. Everyone is playing a Warlock now and its pretty much like sitting back watching a kid run around spraying ants with oven cleaner.

[Steve_Howe]

Wrong.

[Hobgoblin]

in other news. water is wet.

[donblas]

An attack that does 9D6 damage enhanced by spellpower regardless if it is a critical or sneak attack is a bit insane if you ask me. Everyone is playing a Warlock now and its pretty much like sitting back watching a kid run around spraying ants with oven cleaner.

Shhhhhhhhh. Don't tell everyone - they'll all want one! :)

[Gljosh]

Shhhhhhhhh. Don't tell everyone - they'll all want one! :)

Hmm I am on the fence about Warlocks, but I have seen them stomp enemies easily. Too bad they nerfed the negative level a boss trick that was nice. But the nice new shiney is nice and new and shiney.

[mkmcgw17]

An attack that does 9D6 damage enhanced by spellpower regardless if it is a critical or sneak attack is a bit insane if you ask me. Everyone is playing a Warlock now and its pretty much like sitting back watching a kid run around spraying ants with oven cleaner.

I agree. I expect the class like monk to be slightly more powerful since otherwise there wouldn't be much insentive to buy it but they're stupidly powerful please nerf way to much power creep already. On a side not the feedback your receiving from the forums is the voice of the loud minority I wouldn't place to much stock in it. Most player's don't post on the forums.

[donblas]

I agree. I expect the class like monk to be slightly more powerful since otherwise there wouldn't be much insentive to buy it but they're stupidly powerful please nerf way to much power creep already. On a side not the feedback your receiving from the forums is the voice of the loud minority I wouldn't place to much stock in it. Most player's don't post on the forums.

Nooooes!!! A thousand times noes! Do not nerf my warlock (or three) or I will rage quit this game for 2 minutes while I switch to one of my 40 or so alts. I'm not bluffing, I'll do it!

Or maybe I won't :)

PS I like my warlock :)

[slarden]

Whenever I read threads like this I have to wonder if the people are serious or if they've just never seen a well-played paladin, barbarian, swashbuckler, mechanic or shuri build.

I ran the new raid 20 or so times and never once saw a warlock lead the kill count.

[Alternative]

OP has no idea what they're talking about, ignoring melee attack speed is just the first thing that comes to mind. Please go run some actual EEs, try to kill a 300k hp red named with just eld blast, then come back to us.

[Tscheuss]

OP has no idea what they're talking about, ignoring melee attack speed is just the first thing that comes to mind. Please go run some actual EEs, try to kill a 300k hp red named with just eld blast, then come back to us.

^^This. I like my warlock, but my rogue mech has greater range, faster attack, and more procs for a given time.

[FifthTime]

Warlock simply follows the trend that the current Dev team has undertaken.

Each class that they "balance" against some ridiculous standard is an over powered snooze fest.

Paladin, Barbarian, Bard, Rogue, and now Warlock are all stupidly OP.

These all lead me to believe that no one currently working at Turbine on the DDO team has or can actually play the game.

[psykopeta]

An attack that does 9D6 damage enhanced by spellpower regardless if it is a critical or sneak attack is a bit insane if you ask me. Everyone is playing a Warlock now and its pretty much like sitting back watching a kid run around spraying ants with oven cleaner.

the word isn't OP, dunno which word is tho

but the concept is: with a warlock is much easier to be amongst "the good toons" without investing too much on it, but the difference from that "non geared, non pl " warlock to a full warlock... isn't that big

on the other hand, a non geared non pl paladin or barb, may be (and in fact, if you aren't running in DC it will be) weak

but once you get all the stuff in that paladin, barb or rogue... well, the warlock isn't even close to it

however, as you pointed, everybody can be a 1st lifer non geared (you only need 2 RNG sticks with your 2 spellpowers on them) and kick asses, but that's the same with shiradi casters

don't mix "easy to rock" with OP, because OP is doing crits half the time with 100+ saves, however that recquieres time, investment and skill

after the "little nerf" (around... 20%? warlock will be as easy to play: enlightened spirit and burst burst burst, with some melee or whatever hit while rotating

but after more classes get revamped, warlock will keep going back in the OP line, because it's not OP

lots of ppl playing warlock? ofc, there're 2 reasons:
- due to awesome game mechanics ALL completionist have lost their feat and now need to run at least one warlock life
- everybody knows that right after release, classes and packs are full of goodies that make you laugh enough to cry a bit i.e. insanely borked stuff (like warlock has, and yup the "little nerf" was in the bad direction, the real nerf would be fixing the warlock) or awesome drops which after 2 weeks get reduced because they notice that suddenly the AH and ASAH are full of "theoretically hard to get" gear, at insane prices

btw 2nd warlock pl, getting 3 epl with each life (as with other classes) and well... it's easy to play and to gear, not even close to my pally, barb nor bard lifes, haven't played rogue since before the enhancement pass so dunno, yup i said enhancement pass, not class revamp

[Xyy]

Just my little FWIW: My effective solo EE red named DPS is about the same between my very well built assassin and quite well built Warlock TS/ES. The very nice rogue DPS is balanced out by many more interruptions for healing. The moderately good Warlock ranged DPS isn't as sexy, but easier and safer to sustain. Other builds I solo EE are either noticeably better or worse than these two for effective (actual) DPS.

[ThePrincipal]

Warlock is too powerful. Even one in a group will ruin the group dynamics as everyone is chasing the coat tails of the Warlock. I refuse to let them into LFMs I lead. And if I am not the leader I will often drop group if more than one Warlock joins. It's even more painful when I am on my melee. I say shun them all.

[LordTigerDawn]

An attack that does 9D6 damage enhanced by spellpower regardless if it is a critical or sneak attack is a bit insane if you ask me. Everyone is playing a Warlock now and its pretty much like sitting back watching a kid run around spraying ants with oven cleaner.

NOT overpowered for epics.

Hugely overpowered for Heroics.

If you are a end game person, then no. If you are a heroic wheel of torture (TR track), then very much yes.

Which makes sense since they only balanced it for end game and not for heroics.

[Hobgoblin]

Warlock is too powerful. Even one in a group will ruin the group dynamics as everyone is chasing the coat tails of the Warlock. I refuse to let them into LFMs I lead. And if I am not the leader I will often drop group if more than one Warlock joins. It's even more painful when I am on my melee. I say shun them all.

and that makes you part of the problem.

[Xyy]

Warlock is too powerful. Even one in a group will ruin the group dynamics as everyone is chasing the coat tails of the Warlock. I refuse to let them into LFMs I lead. And if I am not the leader I will often drop group if more than one Warlock joins. It's even more painful when I am on my melee. I say shun them all.Any skillful nuker types or ranged instakillers will frustrate melees to no end, particularly in easier content/difficulties. It's not just Warlocks. Compared to other classes/builds, it's just so easy for a weaker skilled player to build and play a warlock near the same potential as a top of the food chain player. Weaker skilled players tend to run with weaker skilled players and expert skilled with the experts. When a less skilled player can play near an expert level but they're still playing with the less skilled players, well... we get into the current predicament. Warlocks are not OP, just perceived to be.

[Wulverine]

A well built melee DPS will at least DOUBLE the single-target DPS of a Warlock. Both maxed out EE builds.

Warlock is NOT overpowered in epics. End of story.

(they are in heroic)

[Lemdog]

No, no it isn't.... OK maybe in heroics, but epix? no way bruh

[richieelias27]

the word isn't OP, dunno which word is tho

but the concept is: with a warlock is much easier to be amongst "the good toons" without investing too much on it, but the difference from that "non geared, non pl " warlock to a full warlock... isn't that big

on the other hand, a non geared non pl paladin or barb, may be (and in fact, if you aren't running in DC it will be) weak

but once you get all the stuff in that paladin, barb or rogue... well, the warlock isn't even close to it

however, as you pointed, everybody can be a 1st lifer non geared (you only need 2 RNG sticks with your 2 spellpowers on them) and kick asses, but that's the same with shiradi casters

don't mix "easy to rock" with OP, because OP is doing crits half the time with 100+ saves, however that recquieres time, investment and skill

after the "little nerf" (around... 20%? warlock will be as easy to play: enlightened spirit and burst burst burst, with some melee or whatever hit while rotating

but after more classes get revamped, warlock will keep going back in the OP line, because it's not OP

lots of ppl playing warlock? ofc, there're 2 reasons:
- due to awesome game mechanics ALL completionist have lost their feat and now need to run at least one warlock life
- everybody knows that right after release, classes and packs are full of goodies that make you laugh enough to cry a bit i.e. insanely borked stuff (like warlock has, and yup the "little nerf" was in the bad direction, the real nerf would be fixing the warlock) or awesome drops which after 2 weeks get reduced because they notice that suddenly the AH and ASAH are full of "theoretically hard to get" gear, at insane prices

btw 2nd warlock pl, getting 3 epl with each life (as with other classes) and well... it's easy to play and to gear, not even close to my pally, barb nor bard lifes, haven't played rogue since before the enhancement pass so dunno, yup i said enhancement pass, not class revamp

Exactly the same thing I've been saying. Unfortunately most people do not comprehend the huge gap in power between ungeared builds, and geared powerbuilds. They run a Warlock around with the same lootgen gear they have on all their other toons and shout "OMG OP". They do not understand.

[Chai]

In every MMO ive played, which is quite a few, its common to find people who deny people into groups due to lack of contribution.

DDO is the only game ive played on this considerable list where people will not allow folks into a group because of overkill contribution.

[richieelias27]

In every MMO ive played, which is quite a few, its common to find people who deny people into groups due to lack of contribution.

DDO is the only game ive played on this considerable list where people will not allow folks into a group because of overkill contribution.

I don't know about your experience... But back when druid wild form was bugged with handwraps (infinite proc stacking = DPS levels never seen again since), I had no issues getting into groups. If only for the humor value of seeing EE mobs get killed just by touching them.

[DrWily]

I'd prefer the old ES setup with the old Cure Mod and (maybe? Just maybe.) Break Forth. I've seen the ES Lock in EE WGU (I ran it with 4 Warlocks last night) and it's difficult for mobs to break through the Temp HP that Shining Through gives, and then when they do the ES can just renew it. The Brilliance enhancement is basically just a 100HP shield that renews itself every 2 seconds.

Basically the Warlock "Nerf" wasn't even a Nerf, it was a buff that the class didn't really need.

And this is coming from a player who intends to run a Warlock next life.

[richieelias27]

I'd prefer the old ES setup with the old Cure Mod and (maybe? Just maybe.) Break Forth. I've seen the ES Lock in EE WGU (I ran it with 4 Warlocks last night) and it's difficult for mobs to break through the Temp HP that Shining Through gives, and then when they do the ES can just renew it. The Brilliance enhancement is basically just a 100HP shield that renews itself every 2 seconds.

Basically the Warlock "Nerf" wasn't even a Nerf, it was a buff that the class didn't really need.

And this is coming from a player who intends to run a Warlock next life.

Meh, Warlock gets shining through for about 500 hp every 30 seconds on a tier 5 ability. Bladeforged gets 400+ self heal every 6 seconds on a tier !!2!! racial.

I am not impressed.

[Enderoc]

Okay I will agree, I just TRed and yeah warlocks in epic did not seem as powerful but then again that was early after their release where people were still learning how to build them. But in Heroics as a melee type character I have to switch to a bow just to get in on the kills because they are just zapping things dead even before I can get to them.

[Steve_Howe]

Okay I will agree, I just TRed and yeah warlocks in epic did not seem as powerful but then again that was early after their release where people were still learning how to build them. But in Heroics as a melee type character I have to switch to a bow just to get in on the kills because they are just zapping things dead even before I can get to them.

I see.

You're upset because you're no longer leading kill counts.

Nothing to see here, folks.

[slarden]

Any skillful nuker types or ranged instakillers will frustrate melees to no end, particularly in easier content/difficulties. It's not just Warlocks. Compared to other classes/builds, it's just so easy for a weaker skilled player to build and play a warlock near the same potential as a top of the food chain player. Weaker skilled players tend to run with weaker skilled players and expert skilled with the experts. When a less skilled player can play near an expert level but they're still playing with the less skilled players, well... we get into the current predicament. Warlocks are not OP, just perceived to be.

Yep and the bottom line is that you need to build your toon to work with varying builds and if you don't it's your own problem. I don't expect others to change their play style so I can increase my kill count.

I was running the new raid on my swashbuckler in a group with one of the best shuri builds on the server and he leads kill count every time. My kill count was maybe 23 because the mobs were almost always running around chasing him. He plays ranged toons better than anyone else on the server.

In another group I was cranking about 50 kills per run as it was mostly melees and casters with minimal kiting. It's just how it goes - I don't expect him to change his game - he is amazing I could care less what my kill count is as long as we win.

[Saitiss]

Okay I will agree, I just TRed and yeah warlocks in epic did not seem as powerful but then again that was early after their release where people were still learning how to build them. But in Heroics as a melee type character I have to switch to a bow just to get in on the kills because they are just zapping things dead even before I can get to them.

HAve you ever played with an Air Savant sorcerer on Heroics ? The result is the same, realy.

Is Warlock Op in Epic ? Not sure, but last time i runned WGU EE with a full PUG party, the kill count ended this way :

Strong lvl 28 Warlock well built and well played : 156 Kills

Me, Pal level 27 with good gear and solid swf build : 82 kills

Total of kills of the 3 other mob killing players - 2 warriors and a bard (i dont count the very good healer in it) : 20

This surprised me in several ways :

First the realy high kill counts of the warlock, almost twice than me which is, IMO insane, especialy in a realy tough quest.
Second, the realy low kill counts of the 3 other melee guys, and no they didnt piked, they realy played the quest and fight the mobs.

Does that mean that Warlock is OP or the warlock player was realy good i stealing Kills, i cant say, but i never saw a spellcaster doint that in WGU EE for sure.

And no i dont call for a nerf, i dont care, i will may be when more than 50% of players will play only warlocks. :)

Remember the 50% or more pals or BArbs in raids parties ? :D

[AbyssalMage]

In every MMO ive played, which is quite a few, its common to find people who deny people into groups due to lack of contribution.
DDO was one of them!


DDO is the only game ive played on this considerable list where people will not allow folks into a group because of overkill contribution.
Never been a part of a group like this. Then again, I don't want to be in a group like this either and will just avoid them.

[donblas]

Exactly the same thing I've been saying. Unfortunately most people do not comprehend the huge gap in power between ungeared builds, and geared powerbuilds. They run a Warlock around with the same lootgen gear they have on all their other toons and shout "OMG OP". They do not understand.

Hmmm, that sounds suspiciously like me! :D

[Avenger_67]

I see.

You're upset because you're no longer leading kill counts.

Nothing to see here, folks.

Agreed.

[madmaxhunter]

HAve you ever played with an Air Savant sorcerer on Heroics ? The result is the same, realy.

Is Warlock Op in Epic ? Not sure, but last time i runned WGU EE with a full PUG party, the kill count ended this way :

Strong lvl 28 Warlock well built and well played : 156 Kills

Me, Pal level 27 with good gear and solid swf build : 82 kills

Total of kills of the 3 other mob killing players - 2 warriors and a bard (i dont count the very good healer in it) : 20

This surprised me in several ways :

First the realy high kill counts of the warlock, almost twice than me which is, IMO insane, especialy in a realy tough quest.
Second, the realy low kill counts of the 3 other melee guys, and no they didnt piked, they realy played the quest and fight the mobs.

Does that mean that Warlock is OP or the warlock player was realy good i stealing Kills, i cant say, but i never saw a spellcaster doint that in WGU EE for sure.

And no i dont call for a nerf, i dont care, i will may be when more than 50% of players will play only warlocks. :)

Remember the 50% or more pals or BArbs in raids parties ? :D

Was the warlock chaining? If so, kill count means nothing. Same as a divine dropping blades everywhere. Chances are they will get the last damage tick. A pally can do 29,999 to a 30k mob. The warlock only needs to do the last 1.

[Tscheuss]

Was the warlock chaining? If so, kill count means nothing. Same as a divine dropping blades everywhere. Chances are they will get the last damage tick. A pally can do 29,999 to a 30k mob. The warlock only needs to do the last 1.

^^This.

Especially if the warlock was an accomplished, kill-stealing rogue in a past life. :D

[Postumus]

DDO is the only game ive played on this considerable list where people will not allow folks into a group because of overkill contribution.


Never, ever, ever seen this in DDO. Not once in 6 years.

[Enderoc]

Okay imagine if Ranger had an endless no cool down cone attack manyshot that could be scaled to 130% spell power that increased 1D6 every few levels even if the attack was facing aggro mobs...except minus 1D6 using it. That is just insane. Dragons in D&D have only so many breath attacks...but here we are with a caster with perpetual AOE spellcasting ability without even a cooldown like the cleave lines? Maybe we should have flamethrowers for weapons too? In my opinion if a Warlock is drawing spellcasting power from within for combat it should almost play like a ranged monk or something....

I mean look at the monk...okay have to get my ki up, oh man the mob moved and I missed my special attack.....okay another chance, drat I screwed up the combo. While the warlock hits the easy button and becomes instant hero.

Spellcasting power is so much more easier to achieve than weapon power, where do you see any weapon that gives 60+ weapon power anywhere? And then they scale it to as high as 150 percent more than shown spellpower? Dude, that is overkill admit it.

[Hobgoblin]

Okay imagine if Ranger had an endless no cool down cone attack manyshot that could be scaled to 130% spell power that increased 1D6 every few levels even if the attack was facing aggro mobs...except minus 1D6 using it. That is just insane. Dragons in D&D have only so many breath attacks...but here we are with a caster with perpetual AOE spellcasting ability without even a cooldown like the cleave lines? Maybe we should have flamethrowers for weapons too?

sure!

can clerics get one for positive energy too?!!!

!!
!

!

!

!

Just wanted to make sure I had enough exclaimation points in here.

[Enderoc]

sure!

can clerics get one for positive energy too?!!!

!!
!

!

!

!

Just wanted to make sure I had enough exclaimation points in here. Even then there are lines drawn and are only unlimited if you spend to make them regenerate, like I said where do you get these plus 60 and higher weapon power weapons like you have your spellcasting implements? You have to actually take feats and enhancements to get weapon power...and then its nowhere near the damage that spellcasters are able to consistently shell out....especially those which only really use spell points primarily for buffs since they are endlessly casting without a worry in the world. What is the stat that they use to see if they hit anyway?

[Qhualor]

Okay imagine if Ranger had an endless no cool down cone attack manyshot that could be scaled to 130% spell power that increased 1D6 every few levels even if the attack was facing aggro mobs...except minus 1D6 using it. That is just insane. Dragons in D&D have only so many breath attacks...but here we are with a caster with perpetual AOE spellcasting ability without even a cooldown like the cleave lines? Maybe we should have flamethrowers for weapons too? In my opinion if a Warlock is drawing spellcasting power from within for combat it should almost play like a ranged monk or something....

I mean look at the monk...okay have to get my ki up, oh man the mob moved and I missed my special attack.....okay another chance, drat I screwed up the combo. While the warlock hits the easy button and becomes instant hero.

the burst and blast attacks share the same cooldown as cleaves and has the same 5 second cooldown. the ranged attacks don't auto target like you can using a bow. if the mob moves, its quite easy to miss. its actually easier to be as close as possible for shorter range attack distance reducing the miss chance.

it is unlimited, but so are Shiradis and any front line melee character. ki is actually quite easy to build up and a lot of love has been thrown to monks with increasing the ki bar through enhancements and gear.

[Hobgoblin]

Even then there are lines drawn and are only unlimited if you spend to make them regenerate, like I said where do you get these plus 60 and higher weapon power weapons like you have your spellcasting implements?

sry I wasn't being clear on this one.

I meant the cone, and was commenting on the various absuridity of lock cone shape.

that was what was in my head, not exactly what I typed........

[Enderoc]

the burst and blast attacks share the same cooldown as cleaves . No your blast attacks are automatic. http://ddowiki.com/page/Eldritch_Blast

[Qhualor]

No your blast attacks are automatic. http://ddowiki.com/page/Eldritch_Blast

no, what I said is true. your Spirit Blast and Eldritch Burst share the same cleave cooldown http://ddowiki.com/page/Enlightened_Spirit_enhancements

[fmalfeas]

An attack that does 9D6 damage enhanced by spellpower regardless if it is a critical or sneak attack is a bit insane if you ask me. Everyone is playing a Warlock now and its pretty much like sitting back watching a kid run around spraying ants with oven cleaner.

So how do you feel about monks? Base 3.5[1d6] + 1d6 Reinforced Fists + 1d6 Improved Martial Arts + 1d6 for epic wraps or Alchemical Byshek wraps. And that's without GMoF boosts, Improved Power Attack from LD, or any enhancement points. And in Wind Stance, their rate of attack is absurd. And Melee Power scales it up. Then you get into enhancements and ED boosts on it

So let's add those in. It's now 1d8 instead of 1d6 from Shintao (I'm going to ignore Earth Stance, even though it's the favored choice.) +1.5w from Dance of Flowers, and lets run in Fire Stance, with Dancing With Flames for +3 damage and +.75w. and +.25 from airship buff. So we've got 9[1d8]+str bonus + weapon enhancement bonus, boosted further by any crits that happen (Overwhelming Crit applies, and since it's unarmed, overwhelming will apply on all crits, for x3 mult). And then Melee Power hits. And the rate of attack is so high that 'on vorpal' becomes something you easily count on happening constantly. Plus you have Improved Evasion, excellent saves, some immunities, SR, decent HP, no reliance on SP, and can add another 2[1d8] with the new gear.

It's just not ranged.

[Siccan]

An attack that does 9D6 damage enhanced by spellpower regardless if it is a critical or sneak attack is a bit insane if you ask me. Everyone is playing a Warlock now and its pretty much like sitting back watching a kid run around spraying ants with oven cleaner.

You sound like a WoW player. "Overpowered, not fair!" Get over it. Everyone needs to get back their completionist feat so, yes, there's a TON of locks atm.

[stoerm]

You sound like a WoW player. "Overpowered, not fair!" Get over it. Everyone needs to get back their completionist feat so, yes, there's a TON of locks atm.

I think the OP is entitled to make a point without getting insulted.

The number of warlocks out there is irrelevant to the discussion.

DDO is a group game and class balance factors into the enjoyment. Warlock being vastly stronger especially in heroics is a fact and easily observable.

If it balances out in EE, that is nice but of little consequence to 95% of the gaming population.

[Dalsheel]

Warlock being vastly stronger especially in heroics is a fact and easily observable.

Your warlock has not grouped with any FvS or Cleric recently, has it? You'll just be running after him and killing whatever is left -if anything- from the Blade Barrier.
You should also try grouping with a Sorcerer who actually knows what he's doing. Chances are the Sorc with have 80% of the total kills in the quest.

[stoerm]

Your warlock has not grouped with any FvS or Cleric recently, has it? You'll just be running after him and killing whatever is left -if anything- from the Blade Barrier.
You should also try grouping with a Sorcerer who actually knows what he's doing. Chances are the Sorc with have 80% of the total kills in the quest.

Based on this thread I must conclude that monks, clerics, fvs and sorcs are the top classes in the game. I hope devs take heed and buff the other classes.

Edit to be clear: I am being facetious. Please do not buff anything. Maybe nerf something.

[fmalfeas]

In heroics, they're absurdly powerful, so long as the SP holds out...except for monks, who just stomp heroics into the ground like nothing. In epics, it all changes. Though monks maintain more viability than the casters other than warlock, due to not running out of juice due to HP and save bloat.

[Red_Knight]

I'd prefer the old ES setup with the old Cure Mod and (maybe? Just maybe.) Break Forth.

I can kind of see why the old cure mod was taken out. At tier 3 it was a FREE metamagic'd heal. You could use it every few seconds. And it could easily heal you for 150 health at a time without heal amp. This could make you pretty much immortal on epic hard. There was literally no down side to it.


I've seen the ES Lock in EE WGU (I ran it with 4 Warlocks last night) and it's difficult for mobs to break through the Temp HP that Shining Through gives, and then when they do the ES can just renew it. The Brilliance enhancement is basically just a 100HP shield that renews itself every 2 seconds.

Are we playing a different game? It sounds like we must be. What are you doing to be hitting 50 con? The most I'm reliably getting up to is mid 20's to early 30's. And what are you sacrificing to do so? Also, the temp HP from shining through (I think) isn't THAT difficult to be broken through. Even on heroic hard and elite I'm finding it can be taken away in seconds if things go even mildly wrong.

People keep claiming warlocks are easy mode. But it's no more 'easy mode' then any other person who can spam weapon attacks by holding down a button. Warlocks aren't unstoppable killing machines. Heroic Epic can be just as brutal for a warlock as anyone else, if not more brutal. They aren't unkillable, they aren't two shotting everything under the sun, and they aren't anywhere near as overpowered as some would like to claim.

What warlocks are is a heavily front loaded class. By level 4 they've gained a large chunk of their eventual power. They feel unstoppable, and quickly chew through large groups. But here's the thing... They get most of their power early, then only slowly increase that power. Meanwhile enemies get more powerful quickly. By level 7 mobs are not going to be dying any faster then for anyone else. And mob HP will inflate far faster then a warlock's damage capability. Warlocks can't increase their attack speak with haste or anything like that. They can't massively boost crit chance and damage without sacrificing base damage somewhere. And they likely wont be able to improve all their damage types at once.

My blast damage at level 20 with random loot gen gear is going to be about the same as my damage at level 28 with fully twinked out gear. And my damage at 20 isn't likely going to be wildly higher then it was at 15. And if I go for aoe damage, then I'm sacrificing a decent chunk of damage to hit (and tick off) multiple enemies, but probably only hitting 3 with any given blast. May not be the same 3 either. Which means my damage is getting spread out and not quickly dropping any given foe. Meanwhile I've just aggroed EVERY enemy. Those hundreds of temp HP aren't lasting very long under that level of fire. That's true on Heroic Hard and Elite by level 10, and just keeps getting worse.

And don't forget that not every warlock build even has access to those temp HP. If I'm running brilliance, I've already sacrificed the damage mitigation of keeping things at range. Which means I'm running the risk of getting stunned, tripped, and so forth. The temp HP and outside healing can be a powerful combination. But then again outside healing is powerful when combined with ANY form of damage mitigation. And please remember, temp HP is NOT an actual heal.

Was teamed with a cleric this morning running the Trial of the Archons quests. Said cleric refused to heal me on the grounds of "I don't heal warlocks, I'm protesting their creation." Why is this even a thing?!

[Uska]

I can kind of see why the old cure mod was taken out. At tier 3 it was a FREE metamagic'd heal. You could use it every few seconds. And it could easily heal you for 150 health at a time without heal amp. This could make you pretty much immortal on epic hard. There was literally no down side to it.



Are we playing a different game? It sounds like we must be. What are you doing to be hitting 50 con? The most I'm reliably getting up to is mid 20's to early 30's. And what are you sacrificing to do so? Also, the temp HP from shining through (I think) isn't THAT difficult to be broken through. Even on heroic hard and elite I'm finding it can be taken away in seconds if things go even mildly wrong.

People keep claiming warlocks are easy mode. But it's no more 'easy mode' then any other person who can spam weapon attacks by holding down a button. Warlocks aren't unstoppable killing machines. Heroic Epic can be just as brutal for a warlock as anyone else, if not more brutal. They aren't unkillable, they aren't two shotting everything under the sun, and they aren't anywhere near as overpowered as some would like to claim.

What warlocks are is a heavily front loaded class. By level 4 they've gained a large chunk of their eventual power. They feel unstoppable, and quickly chew through large groups. But here's the thing... They get most of their power early, then only slowly increase that power. Meanwhile enemies get more powerful quickly. By level 7 mobs are not going to be dying any faster then for anyone else. And mob HP will inflate far faster then a warlock's damage capability. Warlocks can't increase their attack speak with haste or anything like that. They can't massively boost crit chance and damage without sacrificing base damage somewhere. And they likely wont be able to improve all their damage types at once.

My blast damage at level 20 with random loot gen gear is going to be about the same as my damage at level 28 with fully twinked out gear. And my damage at 20 isn't likely going to be wildly higher then it was at 15. And if I go for aoe damage, then I'm sacrificing a decent chunk of damage to hit (and tick off) multiple enemies, but probably only hitting 3 with any given blast. May not be the same 3 either. Which means my damage is getting spread out and not quickly dropping any given foe. Meanwhile I've just aggroed EVERY enemy. Those hundreds of temp HP aren't lasting very long under that level of fire. That's true on Heroic Hard and Elite by level 10, and just keeps getting worse.

And don't forget that not every warlock build even has access to those temp HP. If I'm running brilliance, I've already sacrificed the damage mitigation of keeping things at range. Which means I'm running the risk of getting stunned, tripped, and so forth. The temp HP and outside healing can be a powerful combination. But then again outside healing is powerful when combined with ANY form of damage mitigation. And please remember, temp HP is NOT an actual heal.

Was teamed with a cleric this morning running the Trial of the Archons quests. Said cleric refused to heal me on the grounds of "I don't heal warlocks, I'm protesting their creation." Why is this even a thing?!

Its silly to protest warlocks now that they are here I fought their inclusion but now that they are here I have to accept them

[Braegan]

To everyone saying that Warlock OPness is just heroics and isn't the case in epics:

How do you respond to the fact that the newest raid was solo'd by a pure Warlock?

[richieelias27]

To everyone saying that Warlock OPness is just heroics and isn't the case in epics:

How do you respond to the fact that the newest raid was solo'd by a pure Warlock?

Probably by saying that pretty much everyone on Lama was already complaining that the raid was too easy (and traps were bugged to do more damage on normal than EE)?
The word "trivial" was thrown around.

How do you respond to that?

[Braegan]

Probably by saying that pretty much everyone on Lama was already complaining that the raid was too easy (and traps were bugged to do more damage on normal than EE)?
The word "trivial" was thrown around.

How do you respond to that?

I'd respond by saying said completion was done on EN so if traps were bugged and doing more damage on Normal than said player suffered the highest blade damage. I'd also respond saying that the raid was changed from Lama and said player still beat it solo within days of release.

[richieelias27]

I'd respond by saying said completion was done on EN so if traps were bugged and doing more damage on Normal than said player suffered the highest blade damage. I'd also respond saying that the raid was changed from Lama and said player still beat it solo within days of release.

They were bugged on Lama, but still avoidable. This is not a raid with any sort of "tricky" learning curve. At all. It is a straightforward beatdown.

I would say that this has nothing to do with Warlock as a class. All this says is that the raid is not as difficult as it should be.

[Red_Knight]

Its silly to protest warlocks now that they are here I fought their inclusion but now that they are here I have to accept them

What's silly is protesting by refusing to heal anyone playing a specific class. Other then how much of a jerk the 'protester' is, what is this suppose to actually prove? It's not going to attract the attention of developers. How are they suppose to know about this protest? Nor does it demonstrate the protester's superior position. It just shows they can be a jackass to other players. I ended up spending the entire quest with 5 HP after the first enemy group turned and wailed on me with a huge alpha strike. Didn't have the comfort of having any temp HP either. Tainted scholar/harper build, not enlightened spirit. As such, no access to hundreds of temp hit points every 30 seconds. Or any renewing temp HP when my non-existent eldrich aura procs.

[Braegan]

They were bugged on Lama, but still avoidable. This is not a raid with any sort of "tricky" learning curve. At all. It is a straightforward beatdown.

I would say that this has nothing to do with Warlock as a class.

Funny you brought them up and now you dismiss them. :)

I agree it's a straightforward run. However, seeing a Warlock solo it and still no other classes do it does speak volumes, especially since I know many of the ubers of this game are not playing Warlocks currently and would have solo'd it if they could already. That does speak volumes of the classes power.

[Braegan]

What's silly is protesting by refusing to heal anyone playing a specific class. Other then how much of a jerk the 'protester' is, what is this suppose to actually prove? It's not going to attract the attention of developers. How are they suppose to know about this protest? Nor does it demonstrate the protester's superior position. It just shows they can be a jackass to other players. I ended up spending the entire quest with 5 HP after the first enemy group turned and wailed on me with a huge alpha strike. Didn't have the comfort of having any temp HP either. Tainted scholar/harper build, not enlightened spirit. As such, no access to hundreds of temp hit points every 30 seconds. Or any renewing temp HP when my non-existent eldrich aura procs.

Not for nothing, but you have a join date of 2006 and you spent a quest at 5 hp waiting for someone to heal you?

No Cure pots? No UMD for heal scrolls?

Please tell me I am missing some of this story...

[Tscheuss]

Funny you brought them up and now you dismiss them. :)

I agree it's a straightforward run. However, seeing a Warlock solo it and still no other classes do it does speak volumes, especially since I know many of the ubers of this game are not playing Warlocks currently and would have solo'd it if they could already. That does speak volumes of the classes power.

I know some of the ubers in this game don't waste time in forum, so other solo completions by whatever class may be unpublished. ;)

[Tscheuss]

Not for nothing, but you have a join date of 2006 and you spent a quest at 5 hp waiting for someone to heal you?

No Cure pots? No UMD for heal scrolls?

Please tell me I am missing some of this story...

Good point. Warlocks have wicked UMD. lol

[Enderoc]

I seriously think that your main attack automatically starting at above 100 percent of your spellpower without investment in enhancements takes away from the gradual progression all character classes should have towards epic. It is as was said already, really front loaded beginning even from level one. Yeah it rounds out once you hit epic, but it should be on par with every other class as they level. That is my biggest beef. The other classes have to start investing in their DPS using APs and feats to do so...Casters who have great DPS that use spell points for their main attacks are understandable as they have to by experience know how to use those spell points so they don't end up having to use weapons alone by end of the quest.

Of course the warlock has a subpar spell selection, but they become more like the Glass Cannon Wizard from Gauntlet rather than a true Warlock from D&D.

I am not saying "Nerf the Locks" as much as I am saying, spread it out a bit. It should not feel like favor runs every time you team up with the class in Heroic levels.

Kind of seriously, because the UMD they can get is so high...they could even start hoarding scrolls and actually make some of the offensive scrolls work that are normally just collected to fill spellbooks even. (Hear that auctioneers?)

When people start realizing the monster made in warlock...you are going to have to put a leash on them. A leash, not manacles.

I am going to have to run Warlock too if ever I am to get completionist... I mean as far as gameplay and not the grind, I am trying to have a serious discussion that will affect even me.

[gwonbush]

Actually, better spellpower scaling (without metamagics) is more loaded towards mid-high heroics and epics where you have more spellpower. In early heroics, you will be getting more damage from your base damage dice than your spellpower because there aren't any big sources of it.

You've also probably never played a level 1 Warlock, whose blast just kinda sucks.

[Enderoc]

Actually, better spellpower scaling (without metamagics) is more loaded towards mid-high heroics and epics where you have more spellpower. In early heroics, you will be getting more damage from your base damage dice than your spellpower because there aren't any big sources of it.

You've also probably never played a level 1 Warlock, whose blast just kinda sucks.

The trick is to high end your intelligence, and take races that have options to boost intelligence focusing primarily on keeping up a high spellcraft. In building a warlock I would try for 18 intelligence 16 Charisma at generation...putting all level ups in Charisma and from class enhancements.

I seriously think you could make a potent Shadar-kai War-rogue...if you take feats for and item spec for evocation to make up for gimped Charisma.

[Red_Knight]

Not for nothing, but you have a join date of 2006 and you spent a quest at 5 hp waiting for someone to heal you?

No Cure pots? No UMD for heal scrolls?

Please tell me I am missing some of this story...

Cure pots were already used up. I'd been soloing just beforehand and the stupid hireling thought it's a GREAT idea to stand in a trap, then run back to the trap every time I got the dang thing out of it. Also, no I didn't have any Heal scrolls. I don't usually carry many scrolls. Wands, when I think of it. But scrolls not so much. Keep forgetting I have them when I do carry some. To be fair, I keep forgetting about any useful potions that I'm stocking too. First time running the quests, so I don't know the location of every shrine in them. Not that the party was trying to find any shrines that might be off the beaten path.

Didn't actually get to use a shrine till near the end of the quest. By which point I'd been afraid to do more then toss the occasional single target blast and use my buffs for 90% of Trials part 2. Having 5 HP cause the person who could remedy that is "protesting" by not healing certain classes is stupid. You play a cleric, you should be expecting to heal the team.

I don't expect clerics to ONLY heal (unless it's a hireling). But this clown was healing the paladin, but not any of the warlocks. Think we had 3 warlocks total. Each with a different focus. One was focusing on crowd control and single target ranged damage (soul eater I think), the other was tanking with enlightened spirit (rather well till he died due to never getting healed), and I was focused on ranged aoe. But didn't dare do any ranged aoe with utility buffs for the party.

Do you see an issue with this form of protest? Cause I sure as heck do. Refuse to team with a class if you must. Refuse to pay for the class if you feel it's important. But teaming with a class just so you can refuse to heal them? That's just mean spirited. Especially since this guy was team leader. That means he intentionally was forming a team of warlocks that he never intended to aid. The pally must have been part of his protest too, since not once did a cure or lay on hands get used on anyone of the warlock class. Or raise dead. Or any other useful spell that either of them could have cast. I was doing any and all party buffs outside the occasional bless that a warlock happened to get caught in.

[Red_Knight]

Actually, better spellpower scaling (without metamagics) is more loaded towards mid-high heroics and epics where you have more spellpower. In early heroics, you will be getting more damage from your base damage dice than your spellpower because there aren't any big sources of it.

You've also probably never played a level 1 Warlock, whose blast just kinda sucks.

Also, the better spell power scaling is kinda balanced out in the fact you can't actually apply metamagic to your blasts. Empower and Maximize are wasted if you don't take specific enhancements to provide a special version of your blast. Enlightened Spirit can use them on Eldrich Burst and Spirit Blast. Tainted Scholar can apply them to Stun Blast and the aoe blast in T5. And I think you can use them with Soul Eater's consume and stricken.

And honestly, stun blast is kind of useless unless you also have quicken. Too long of a charge up on it.

[gwonbush]

The trick is to high end your intelligence, and take races that have options to boost intelligence focusing primarily on keeping up a high spellcraft. In building a warlock I would try for 18 intelligence 16 Charisma at generation...putting all level ups in Charisma and from class enhancements.

I seriously think you could make a potent Shadar-kai War-rogue...if you take feats for and item spec for evocation to make up for gimped Charisma.

Int boosts don't really provide all that much all told. 10 Int (quite a large amount for a stat) provides a grand total of 5 spell power. I'd never drop my Cha for Int, since 1 spell power is clearly worse than 1 DC and extra SP.

[Ivontoske]

What's silly is protesting by refusing to heal anyone playing a specific class. Other then how much of a jerk the 'protester' is, what is this suppose to actually prove? It's not going to attract the attention of developers. How are they suppose to know about this protest? Nor does it demonstrate the protester's superior position. It just shows they can be a jackass to other players. I ended up spending the entire quest with 5 HP after the first enemy group turned and wailed on me with a huge alpha strike. Didn't have the comfort of having any temp HP either. Tainted scholar/harper build, not enlightened spirit. As such, no access to hundreds of temp hit points every 30 seconds. Or any renewing temp HP when my non-existent eldrich aura procs.

Not sure I would heal you either. You purposely make your character weak so you can talk about how weak it is. Then you join a party and contribute nothing, while blaming others for something that is clearly your responsibility.

This is probably one of the most ridiculous posts I've seen from you, and that's saying something.

[Red_Knight]

Not sure I would heal you either. You purposely make your character weak so you can talk about how weak it is. Then you join a party and contribute nothing, while blaming others for something that is clearly your responsibility.

This is probably one of the most ridiculous posts I've seen from you, and that's saying something.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Been messing around with various trees the last week or so. I reset enhancements on that character, redo them with a different build, then use that build for a couple days to see how it works out. Wasn't aware everyone's "required" to always go T5 in enlightened spirit regardless of their build or concept. I've already tried a enlightened spirit with side investment in soul eater for healing build. I've tried a soul eater/tainted scholar build (focusing on each primarily in turn) I've tried a enlightened spirit/tainted scholar build that I was sort of happy with but wasn't sure of which split to do. And currently I'm trying a build with some investment in Harper since I've never done anything with that tree before.

Also wasn't aware it's "purposely making your character weak" to forget to restock, or not have time to restock potions. I don't typically carry heal scrolls because I've found... I keep forgetting I have them. Having 300 scrolls that you never remember is a waste of plat. Not to mention I personally consider carrying a large stash of scrolls kind of dumb for general play. When soloing I bring along a cleric or favored soul hireling, stacks of heal scrolls and potions aren't needed. I do keep any healing potions I find though for easier quests.

Or are you trying to claim that having an extra 2 skill points in all skills, 12 universial spell power, 15 hit points, 40 spell points, and 2d6 force (okay, pierce) damage is "intentionally weakening" my character. Especially when my spell power for Light is at least 30 points lower then for acid and force, even if going heavily into enlightened spirit. Yeah I have less PRR, MRR, and health then if I went with enlightened spirit. And yeah this build is using light armor so has lower AC. But it stays at range, using either chain blast or enervating shadow. May not keep with this build. May decide it's my final build.

But I seriously wasn't aware there's only one "right" build. Or that it's okay to insult people because they have a different playstyle then you. Hell, did it occur to you that I might not have invested in Use Magic Devices? Of course it didn't. The idea someone may not follow your exact idea of what every character should look like never occurred did it? I've been investing in Listen instead so I can reliably get early warning of stealthed enemies. I just put 1 point in UMD so I can use the eternal cure minor wand Otherwise I'm using the half elf paladin dilly to use cure light and cure moderate wands.

[Braegan]

I know some of the ubers in this game don't waste time in forum, so other solo completions by whatever class may be unpublished. ;)

Very true.

It just amused me that some are saying the class is gimp in epics and in a different thread here is one soloing the newest raid, heh. Now, I don't doubt that player has very strong skills but certainly the bass class has to have something good going for it for a feat like that to be possible at all. :)


Cure pots were already used up. I'd been soloing just beforehand and the stupid hireling thought it's a GREAT idea to stand in a trap, then run back to the trap every time I got the dang thing out of it. Also, no I didn't have any Heal scrolls. I don't usually carry many scrolls. Wands, when I think of it. But scrolls not so much. Keep forgetting I have them when I do carry some. To be fair, I keep forgetting about any useful potions that I'm stocking too. First time running the quests, so I don't know the location of every shrine in them. Not that the party was trying to find any shrines that might be off the beaten path.

Didn't actually get to use a shrine till near the end of the quest. By which point I'd been afraid to do more then toss the occasional single target blast and use my buffs for 90% of Trials part 2. Having 5 HP cause the person who could remedy that is "protesting" by not healing certain classes is stupid. You play a cleric, you should be expecting to heal the team.

I don't expect clerics to ONLY heal (unless it's a hireling). But this clown was healing the paladin, but not any of the warlocks. Think we had 3 warlocks total. Each with a different focus. One was focusing on crowd control and single target ranged damage (soul eater I think), the other was tanking with enlightened spirit (rather well till he died due to never getting healed), and I was focused on ranged aoe. But didn't dare do any ranged aoe with utility buffs for the party.

Do you see an issue with this form of protest? Cause I sure as heck do. Refuse to team with a class if you must. Refuse to pay for the class if you feel it's important. But teaming with a class just so you can refuse to heal them? That's just mean spirited. Especially since this guy was team leader. That means he intentionally was forming a team of warlocks that he never intended to aid. The pally must have been part of his protest too, since not once did a cure or lay on hands get used on anyone of the warlock class. Or raise dead. Or any other useful spell that either of them could have cast. I was doing any and all party buffs outside the occasional bless that a warlock happened to get caught in.

Ok. So you know about self-healing, usually do it but found yourself low on stock during a run. That happens to the best of us. Personally haven been in that place before I now double check my stock. Overall I prefer wands/scrolls over potions since you can assist others if needed as well as self heal.

In regards to that group, was the cleric using bursts to heal and you were on the outside of the range often? I know playing a divine as my main it can get a bit frustrating to try and heal a group and there are folks on the fringes hopping around always missing the radius hanging on deaths' door. Was there any in group communication, did you ask for a heal and were told no or ignored?

But, just hearing your side of it. It sounds like the whole party was kinda being jerkish about helping a team mate out. Sure a divine has the best source of healing but most classes can have the means to help the group out with healing if needed. Either way, in short no I don't agree with that kind of protest unless it is warranted (i.e. you are taking aggo from the group declared tank and running around making the run more difficult than it needs to be).

[Red_Knight]

Very true.

It just amused me that some are saying the class is gimp in epics and in a different thread here is one soloing the newest raid, heh. Now, I don't doubt that player has very strong skills but certainly the bass class has to have something good going for it for a feat like that to be possible at all. :)



Ok. So you know about self-healing, usually do it but found yourself low on stock during a run. That happens to the best of us. Personally haven been in that place before I now double check my stock. Overall I prefer wands/scrolls over potions since you can assist others if needed as well as self heal.

In regards to that group, was the cleric using bursts to heal and you were on the outside of the range often? I know playing a divine as my main it can get a bit frustrating to try and heal a group and there are folks on the fringes hopping around always missing the radius hanging on deaths' door. Was there any in group communication, did you ask for a heal and were told no or ignored?

But, just hearing your side of it. It sounds like the whole party was kinda being jerkish about helping a team mate out. Sure a divine has the best source of healing but most classes can have the means to help the group out with healing if needed. Either way, in short no I don't agree with that kind of protest unless it is warranted (i.e. you are taking aggo from the group declared tank and running around making the run more difficult than it needs to be).

Considering the enlightened spirit monk was often standing right next to the cleric, pretty sure no mass or other burst healing was going on. Since I was trying to stay out of melee and not attract much attention, wouldn't expect any mass healing to hit me.

I usually prefer potions over wands for self healing due to the class not being able to use a cure wand :) That said, as a soloist I don't usually buy healing potions between missions after Korthos. Rather I break everything, and save any healing potions I loot for a rainy day. Since I'm a soloist oft times due to playing late at night, this is usually enough. If I can use healing wands though, I do buy them periodically. And save any I loot, of course.

Yeah, holding back healing from someone who's proven to be a mana sponge due to recklessness I can understand. I've done it myself in various MMOs when playing a medic type. But not from an entire class just because it is that class. Okay, sure, I'm less likely to worry about healing a cleric or favored soul. Or even a druid. They can (or at least should be able to) patch them self up just fine. I'll toss out emergency heals for them, but not mend every little scratch. Warforged I'll heal, although might rethink that if I see them using repair spells regularly. Or if they turn out to be immune to divine healing. Similarly I don't waste divine spells on pale masters in an undead shroud.

But the tank should be healed. Even if you're not a fan of the class, healing the tank is a Good Thing. And if someone has the bad luck to eat a massive alpha strike cause the tank rolled a 1 on Intimidate or accidentally hit Invisible instead of Everod's... You don't leave them sitting at 5 hit points the entire quest. Even if it's a BYOH group, you don't abandon the team mate like that.

I was just lucky I'd happened to have Dark Discorp active when I ate the alpha strike. Didn't help prevent me from being seen. But at least I didn't die out right.

[Braegan]

I usually prefer potions over wands for self healing due to the class not being able to use a cure wand :)

Wait. Are we still talking about your Warlock?

The UMD class?

[Red_Knight]

Wait. Are we still talking about your Warlock?

The UMD class?

And again, not everyone considers UMD a "must have" skill. It's nice, but by no means required. The warlock I was playing the other day only invested 1 point in it, then invests in Listen. Just enough to reliably use an eternal cure minor wounds wand. Which I haven't gotten on that server yet. Stupid catacombs loot table wont offer it. I have other warlocks who do use that skill and tend to carry 3 or 4 of the best cure wands I can afford at the moment (and reliably use).

Thing is, so many people think having high UMD totals is a requirement for all classes. It's not. If you can get them, great. If not, it's not game breaking. Not being able to use every wand, scroll, and item isn't being deliberately weak. It's not gimped. It just means you decided that's not something you want to invest the time and energy towards. On that character, I decided that the red rings to alert you there's a stealhed enemy you can hear was more important then being able to use cure wands and scrolls of whatever.

[Sn00gans]

And again, not everyone considers UMD a "must have" skill. It's nice, but by no means required. The warlock I was playing the other day only invested 1 point in it, then invests in Listen. Just enough to reliably use an eternal cure minor wounds wand. Which I haven't gotten on that server yet. Stupid catacombs loot table wont offer it. I have other warlocks who do use that skill and tend to carry 3 or 4 of the best cure wands I can afford at the moment (and reliably use).

Thing is, so many people think having high UMD totals is a requirement for all classes. It's not. If you can get them, great. If not, it's not game breaking. Not being able to use every wand, scroll, and item isn't being deliberately weak. It's not gimped. It just means you decided that's not something you want to invest the time and energy towards. On that character, I decided that the red rings to alert you there's a stealhed enemy you can hear was more important then being able to use cure wands and scrolls of whatever.

No. Just...no.

[Hobgoblin]

And again, not everyone considers UMD a "must have" skill. It's nice, but by no means required. The warlock I was playing the other day only invested 1 point in it, then invests in Listen. Just enough to reliably use an eternal cure minor wounds wand. Which I haven't gotten on that server yet. Stupid catacombs loot table wont offer it. I have other warlocks who do use that skill and tend to carry 3 or 4 of the best cure wands I can afford at the moment (and reliably use).

Thing is, so many people think having high UMD totals is a requirement for all classes. It's not. If you can get them, great. If not, it's not game breaking. Not being able to use every wand, scroll, and item isn't being deliberately weak. It's not gimped. It just means you decided that's not something you want to invest the time and energy towards. On that character, I decided that the red rings to alert you there's a stealhed enemy you can hear was more important then being able to use cure wands and scrolls of whatever.

so you would rather try to drink pots at around 30hp a swig, when you have what around 600ish hp? then use a heal scroll from about 200?

do you wonder why you die?

[Ape_Man]

And again, not everyone considers UMD a "must have" skill.

But all the good players do, take a hint from them.

[Hobgoblin]

But all the good players do, take a hint from them.

to elaborate on this, its the difference between "o i cant do that because i cant ______ enough

Without umd, i have to rely on outside sources to be healed.

with umd and this is not a major accomplishment, I two manned reaver at level, and solo healed shroud.


On a rogue!

its flexibility!

thats all

[Braegan]

And again, not everyone considers UMD a "must have" skill. It's nice, but by no means required. The warlock I was playing the other day only invested 1 point in it, then invests in Listen. Just enough to reliably use an eternal cure minor wounds wand. Which I haven't gotten on that server yet. Stupid catacombs loot table wont offer it. I have other warlocks who do use that skill and tend to carry 3 or 4 of the best cure wands I can afford at the moment (and reliably use).

Thing is, so many people think having high UMD totals is a requirement for all classes. It's not. If you can get them, great. If not, it's not game breaking. Not being able to use every wand, scroll, and item isn't being deliberately weak. It's not gimped. It just means you decided that's not something you want to invest the time and energy towards. On that character, I decided that the red rings to alert you there's a stealhed enemy you can hear was more important then being able to use cure wands and scrolls of whatever.

Yeah, now you lost me.

Maybe I could entertain that thought process on a different class (it still wouldn't be best, but nevertheless) but on a Warlock? A Cha based (most times) class, with UMD as a class skill, with bonuses to UMD?!?!

You wouldn't even need to max UMD to reach no fail heal scrolls on a Warlock.

le sigh.

[elvesunited]

Thing is, so many people think having high UMD totals is a requirement for all classes. It's not. If you can get them, great. If not, it's not game breaking. Not being able to use every wand, scroll, and item isn't being deliberately weak. It's not gimped. It just means you decided that's not something you want to invest the time and energy towards. On that character, I decided that the red rings to alert you there's a stealhed enemy you can hear was more important then being able to use cure wands and scrolls of whatever.

Warlock's normally have charisma as one of their top two stats. They get better than artificer UMD bonuses from their class which has UMD as a class skill. Warlocks generally don't come across has skill point starved.

I agree that high UMD totals is not a requirement for all classes. Many classes can't do it. And if you can't manage a decent UMD than you shouldn't waste the skill points trying. But warlock has UMD handed to it on a silver platter. A warlock can get UMD into the upper 40's without the assistance of a single item. That's the ability to restore stat damage, recover from level drain, resurrect allies all without impacting your other abilities.

Listen on the other hand is not a warlock class skill which means unless you multiclass to a class that does have the highest you'll get via skill points is 11 and at double cost. Also it's increased by wisdom, not something the warlock specializes in. But the nail in Listen's coffin is that it will rarely work at higher levels. Up there if an enemy is prone to sneaking then they will have a high dex and strong Move Silent skill. Far better than your Listen skill so you likely won't "hear" them anyway.

[stoerm]

Optimiser: meet flavour. Flavour builder: meet optimisation.

Personally I take UMD if at all possible to make good use of it. On a cha based build that means always, esp. since heal doesn't have a somatic element. It's a bore casting invis scrolls on a heavy armour build. I got enough UMD. Yay now it fails the ASF check.

[Dalsheel]

Yeah, now you lost me.

Maybe I could entertain that thought process on a different class (it still wouldn't be best, but nevertheless) but on a Warlock? A Cha based (most times) class, with UMD as a class skill, with bonuses to UMD?!?!

You wouldn't even need to max UMD to reach no fail heal scrolls on a Warlock.

le sigh.

My Warlock has ~90 UMD with 23 ranks in it. I would be fine with just 1 rank, ending up at ~70 UMD. This is how easy it is to get access to every scroll in the game on a Warlock.

And, yes, saying you don't want/need UMD on a Warlock, when all it takes to make it work is 1 rank, makes no sense.

[martryn]

I consider the Warlock a girlfriend class.

Sure, you can play something else, and, if properly equipped and leveled, you can do what the warlock does, only better.

But the warlock can be solid without investing any work into the class. You don't have to know what you're doing and the warlock still autopilots usefulness.

I group with the same four guys every time I play. One of the guys was going to play a paladin this life, and then the warlock was released, and he decided he was going to "splash" six straight levels of warlock (levels 3-8). Now I never have to heal on my cleric because of the boost to temp HPs he hands out every few seconds, and he mops up mobs with an aura that auto does damage, all the while wearing heavy armor and a shield with an AC and physical resistance high enough that he takes almost no damage.

He told us the other day he doesn't have to worry about drowning, even while wearing heavy armor, because his aura gives him temp HPs faster than he loses them.

The entire thing just seems so ridiculous.

[SirValentine]

Not being able to use every wand, scroll, and item isn't being deliberately weak. It's not gimped.


Absolutely. It's perfectly reasonable to just work up to, say, 43 or close to it, and not be gimped by being unable to get the 59 needed to no-fail a Deadly Weapons scroll.

[Uska]

But all the good players do, take a hint from them.

FALSE I consdier myself a good player and I only use UMD on a select few characters and even on those characters that have it I dont use it that much.

[Uska]

My Warlock has ~90 UMD with 23 ranks in it. I would be fine with just 1 rank, ending up at ~70 UMD. This is how easy it is to get access to every scroll in the game on a Warlock.

And, yes, saying you don't want/need UMD on a Warlock, when all it takes to make it work is 1 rank, makes no sense.

Yes it is very easy to get it on a warlock and so of course all warlocks should have it for sure.

[kemetka]

it really depends on how the warlock is built and who is piloting it to be honest.
warlocks, literally, are like any other class in regards to their abilities with 2 very key differences :
1. flexibility
2. clearly defined purpose paths ( enhancemnet trees ), for red name bosses theres the soul eater, for damage, there is the tainted scholar, and for survivability there is the enlightened spirit. It is pretty intuitive and well layed out.

so yes anyone can take a warlock and make it work, i simply refer to the class as a lazy sorc. take some buffs, grab a cc or 2, and hold down the attack button, jobs done.

however the warlocks that actually make it work, and by that i mean solo EE things, and burn through heroics like toilet paper, are the ones being piloted by people who have a bredth of experience playing multiple classes, and know what their identifiable play style is.

Personally if I group with people I tend to stick to the basic ED just so i dont have to listen to people cry about how OP the class is, and yet I still end up somewhere near the top of the kill count - for those that care - not cause the class is OP but its cause i know what I am doing, from level 1 - level 20 i know what my stats are, where they are going to be, how this affects my build, and how i can best go about doing things. and it is that way for most classes that i play - admittedly i suck at playing melee characters, those are my "is it over?" lives

I run an Int based warlock with starting 12 charisma, its not the normal way to go about doing things but it works for me and I have alot of fun with it. On the opposite, I have a friend that I run with occasionally who has a pure cha low int warlock that plays as a controller, maximizing their CC, and uses the stun blast regularly, they have some power behind their ED but not enough to compete with any standard build out there, never the less I have come to call his toon "the easy button" because thats what he does.

My point is that both of the above examples can be achieved on any other casting class, pure buffs and high damage ( whether its melee or range ) or low damage high cc 'make life easy' builds.

personally i think the major issue with warlocks is the aura shape ( too powerful with literally no restrictions, in heroics this isnt much of an issue but epics it definatly is ) the level you gain access to chain blast ( personally this seems more suitable for a tier 4 or 5 ability IMO ).and the amount of hp yo uget from shine through - though comparing this to other abilities in terms of sustainabliilty it is somewhat on par.

[Siccan]

I think the OP is entitled to make a point without getting insulted.

The number of warlocks out there is irrelevant to the discussion.

DDO is a group game and class balance factors into the enjoyment. Warlock being vastly stronger especially in heroics is a fact and easily observable.

If it balances out in EE, that is nice but of little consequence to 95% of the gaming population.

It's completely relevant to the discussion, the OP specifically says, "Everyone is playing a Warlock now". What group game? Everyone solos everything these days. The new raid even gets soloed. If you're in a group, it's for social aspects, people don't need each other to win in DDO

[Tscheuss]

It's completely relevant to the discussion, the OP specifically says, "Everyone is playing a Warlock now". What group game? Everyone solos everything these days. The new raid even gets soloed. If you're in a group, it's for social aspects, people don't need each other to win in DDO

Irony. :D

[Enderoc]

Now all that needs to be done is allow double fisting of scrolls and you made a God as long as your other gear slots allow spots for casting speed and UMD on top of the basic amp/survival stuff.