How to make Skill Points viable again!

[FranOhmsford]

Remove ALL skills gear from the game!
Tomes will have to stay of course but players without those tomes will have a reason again to take Feats like Skill Focus {Feats that become less required once you have the Tomes!}.
Thieves Tools could be reduced to +1 {Min Lvl 1}, +3 {Min Lvl 8} and +5 {Min Lvl 16} alone {cut out the Masterwork, +2s and +4s}.

This may be a large undertaking and require a lot of gear changes but if the highest skill a Rogue can have in Disable Device is set by his level alone then it makes it far easier in future for the Devs to scale Trap DCs!

Same goes for Intimidate, Bluff, Diplo, Search, Perform, Spellcraft, Concentration etc.

In fact it would mean some of those Skills could give significantly MORE benefit than currently at each level!

Concentration could be completely revamped to actually be worthwhile when taking Elite dmg!

And skills like Tumble and Jump that currently only need 1 pt or 5 pts put into them could be revamped to actually give benefits for more!


It would also make the Spells, Scrolls and Potions that give bonuses more viable because they won't have to compete with swap in gear!

[TackW5]

First, this seems to hit rogues harder than anyone else. Their skills are needed to pass or fail. The extra 1% damage from spellcraft is nice, but one can live without it.

Second, gear based skill options help allow more build versatility. I rarely invest much in Wis on my rogues, which means I have to scrape for the best items to keep my Spot where it needs to be. On the other hand, I don't always even need to swap to any Search item on an Int build. Sometimes, I go up a level and I need to bump my skill immediately. I may not always have a feat available for that. I don't think having to pre-plan all relevant stats, e.g., Dex, Int, and Wis, on a rogue, to meet the corresponding skill thresholds sounds like more fun than the current system.

Third, revamping all old quest DCs for this is work that is unlikely to be done.

Had they started with this plan, it might have been swell. But, they did not.

[JOTMON]

Remove ALL skills gear from the game!
Tomes will have to stay of course but players without those tomes will have a reason again to take Feats like Skill Focus {Feats that become less required once you have the Tomes!}.
Thieves Tools could be reduced to +1 {Min Lvl 1}, +3 {Min Lvl 8} and +5 {Min Lvl 16} alone {cut out the Masterwork, +2s and +4s}.

This may be a large undertaking and require a lot of gear changes but if the highest skill a Rogue can have in Disable Device is set by his level alone then it makes it far easier in future for the Devs to scale Trap DCs!

Same goes for Intimidate, Bluff, Diplo, Search, Perform, Spellcraft, Concentration etc.

In fact it would mean some of those Skills could give significantly MORE benefit than currently at each level!

Concentration could be completely revamped to actually be worthwhile when taking Elite dmg!

And skills like Tumble and Jump that currently only need 1 pt or 5 pts put into them could be revamped to actually give benefits for more!


It would also make the Spells, Scrolls and Potions that give bonuses more viable because they won't have to compete with swap in gear!

No thanks.. removing skill bonuses is not helpful.

I would rater see skills updated and caps removed.
Give self only bonuses for high ranks of skills..
Remove jump cap. If I have 75+ jump .. let me unlock abundant step.. higher gives a faster cooldown..
Tumble.. 75+ tumble .. tumble into mobs like a bowling ball l(ike the minotaur charge knockdown).. dc based on tumble ranks.
High swim also lets you move through waist high water like it doens't have any resistance.. or isn't even there.. currents have little effect on you.. you are basically a fish.
Let Bluff add a passive sneak attack damage bonus based on the bluff investment ranks.. 1% damage per above 75.
Let High Spot add a bonus to fortification bypass.. you spot a weakness in the mobs defenses.. 1% bypass per above 75
Let High heal give a % increase to healing amp. you have learned to optimize the benefits of incoming healing.
Concentration helps being interrupted while doing stuff.. like rogues and traps, or dot damage and interfacing with stuff..

Set tiers high enough that real investment is required to unlock the goodies.. actual benchmarks may need some analysis and/or caps..


The only way to reduce the value of UMD would be to remove scroll vendors from the game and require players to loot scrolls from chests.
Unlimited access to most scrolls is a gateway to uberness that just cant justify not building useful UMD.

[Stormraiser]

Remove ALL skills gear from the game!
Tomes will have to stay of course but players without those tomes will have a reason again to take Feats like Skill Focus {Feats that become less required once you have the Tomes!}.
Thieves Tools could be reduced to +1 {Min Lvl 1}, +3 {Min Lvl 8} and +5 {Min Lvl 16} alone {cut out the Masterwork, +2s and +4s}.

This may be a large undertaking and require a lot of gear changes but if the highest skill a Rogue can have in Disable Device is set by his level alone then it makes it far easier in future for the Devs to scale Trap DCs!

Same goes for Intimidate, Bluff, Diplo, Search, Perform, Spellcraft, Concentration etc.

In fact it would mean some of those Skills could give significantly MORE benefit than currently at each level!

Concentration could be completely revamped to actually be worthwhile when taking Elite dmg!

And skills like Tumble and Jump that currently only need 1 pt or 5 pts put into them could be revamped to actually give benefits for more!




It would also make the Spells, Scrolls and Potions that give bonuses more viable because they won't have to compete with swap in gear!

So no impact at all for most melee classes... And who is going to take a feat for a +3 to a skill?

[blerkington]

Hi,

I don't think there is a problem with the scaling of trap DCs at the moment. Your suggestion seems to be an attempt to solve a problem which doesn't exist.

I think what you're really trying to do here is make splash trapper builds unviable. I do recall you mentioning in some of your other posts that you don't think they should be effective, and this suggestion of yours would certainly be one way to achieve that.

Similarly, lowering the range of concentration scores would make the skill even less useful than it is now, particularly in epic content. I agree that the way this skill works could be improved, but the method you're proposing would make it worse, not better.

So no, not signed.

Thanks.

[salmag]

No thanks.. removing skill bonuses is not helpful.

I would rater see skills updated and caps removed.
Give self only bonuses for high ranks of skills..
Remove jump cap. If I have 75+ jump .. let me unlock abundant step.. higher gives a faster cooldown..
Tumble.. 75+ tumble .. tumble into mobs like a bowling ball l(ike the minotaur charge knockdown).. dc based on tumble ranks.
High swim also lets you move through waist high water like it doens't have any resistance.. or isn't even there.. currents have little effect on you.. you are basically a fish.
Let Bluff add a passive sneak attack damage bonus based on the bluff investment ranks.. 1% damage per above 75.
Let High Spot add a bonus to fortification bypass.. you spot a weakness in the mobs defenses.. 1% bypass per above 75
Let High heal give a % increase to healing amp. you have learned to optimize the benefits of incoming healing.
Concentration helps being interrupted while doing stuff.. like rogues and traps, or dot damage and interfacing with stuff..

Set tiers high enough that real investment is required to unlock the goodies.. actual benchmarks may need some analysis and/or caps..


The only way to reduce the value of UMD would be to remove scroll vendors from the game and require players to loot scrolls from chests.
Unlimited access to most scrolls is a gateway to uberness that just cant justify not building useful UMD.

I like all these suggestions.

In answer to the OP, the way to bring this game back around to less hyper-inflated numbers would be to get rid of ALL Ability point tomes and Items (but this would NEVER happen). Only epic level named gear should be able to increase one's Ability scores.

Items should only increase Skills, PRR, MRR, SPs, Spell Focus, to hit, damage. NOT Abilities.

just my 2cps

[Drwaz99]

No thanks.. removing skill bonuses is not helpful.

I would rater see skills updated and caps removed.
Give self only bonuses for high ranks of skills..
Remove jump cap. If I have 75+ jump .. let me unlock abundant step.. higher gives a faster cooldown..
Tumble.. 75+ tumble .. tumble into mobs like a bowling ball l(ike the minotaur charge knockdown).. dc based on tumble ranks.
High swim also lets you move through waist high water like it doens't have any resistance.. or isn't even there.. currents have little effect on you.. you are basically a fish.
Let Bluff add a passive sneak attack damage bonus based on the bluff investment ranks.. 1% damage per above 75.
Let High Spot add a bonus to fortification bypass.. you spot a weakness in the mobs defenses.. 1% bypass per above 75
Let High heal give a % increase to healing amp. you have learned to optimize the benefits of incoming healing.
Concentration helps being interrupted while doing stuff.. like rogues and traps, or dot damage and interfacing with stuff..

Set tiers high enough that real investment is required to unlock the goodies.. actual benchmarks may need some analysis and/or caps..


The only way to reduce the value of UMD would be to remove scroll vendors from the game and require players to loot scrolls from chests.
Unlimited access to most scrolls is a gateway to uberness that just cant justify not building useful UMD.

Jot, you're my hero! This is awesome! :D

[Xionanx]

Removing all +SKILL items would simply move the bar down on skill associated checks by whatever the max item bonus is available at that level.

One would think that this will somehow make "Skills" more viable again.. while in reality, all it will do is make getting the "Max" in a skill easier for high skill point classes, letting them do more while at the same time not using item slots.

While I do find the need to carry a +XX disable item to disable traps kinda... stupid, .... actually you know what.. yeah, please get rid of +SKILL items. :p

[PsychoBlonde]

No thanks.. removing skill bonuses is not helpful.

I would rater see skills updated and caps removed.
Give self only bonuses for high ranks of skills..
Remove jump cap. If I have 75+ jump .. let me unlock abundant step.. higher gives a faster cooldown..
Tumble.. 75+ tumble .. tumble into mobs like a bowling ball l(ike the minotaur charge knockdown).. dc based on tumble ranks.
High swim also lets you move through waist high water like it doens't have any resistance.. or isn't even there.. currents have little effect on you.. you are basically a fish.
Let Bluff add a passive sneak attack damage bonus based on the bluff investment ranks.. 1% damage per above 75.
Let High Spot add a bonus to fortification bypass.. you spot a weakness in the mobs defenses.. 1% bypass per above 75
Let High heal give a % increase to healing amp. you have learned to optimize the benefits of incoming healing.
Concentration helps being interrupted while doing stuff.. like rogues and traps, or dot damage and interfacing with stuff..

Set tiers high enough that real investment is required to unlock the goodies.. actual benchmarks may need some analysis and/or caps..


The only way to reduce the value of UMD would be to remove scroll vendors from the game and require players to loot scrolls from chests.
Unlimited access to most scrolls is a gateway to uberness that just cant justify not building useful UMD.

I like all of these ideas. (except maybe removing the Jump cap, because that would likely be problematic animation-wise and the Jump spell is very readily available) Here's some more:

High Diplomacy gives passive -threat
High Intimidate gives passive +threat (so having the skill helps you even if you can't hit the mark to intimidate a given foe directly)
High Listen (which nobody takes, basically a useless skill right now) gives a bonus to reflex saves vs. traps and increases your fortification (you're more aware of what's going on around you so you're harder to crit or sneak attack)

The rest of the skills have pretty solid benefits already.

Or, an alternate idea for listen, which is mostly only a class skill on your light-armored people, would be to make it so that listen increases your dodge and dodge cap. Would make listen investment a way to go the dodge-based defense route. At present, dodge is a great supplement to high ac/PRR but it's not a defense style in and of itself.

[Enoach]

To me the best way to make skill points worth investment is to actually use different skills in quests.

Listen has been used in Wizard King with the falling floors, making more traps like this will help those that don't have trap evade skills a leg up on safe passage. Another feature could be to allow for DM text that allows a person to know things that are behind doors, or around corners - Checks should be made with penalty if in a group and moving, but if standing still no penalty.

Spot already has good use locating sneaky mobs.

Tumble give this an extra save verse physical style traps when you tumble through them (similar to the open video that so many don't watch anymore).

I think the last revamp of skills on Heal, Spellcraft, Perform and Repair was a good start.


Again the best way to make skills useful is to employ them in quests to open optional or to give an optional completion path.

[PsychoBlonde]

To me the best way to make skill points worth investment is to actually use different skills in quests.

Listen has been used in Wizard King with the falling floors, making more traps like this will help those that don't have trap evade skills a leg up on safe passage. Another feature could be to allow for DM text that allows a person to know things that are behind doors, or around corners - Checks should be made with penalty if in a group and moving, but if standing still no penalty.

Spot already has good use locating sneaky mobs.

Tumble give this an extra save verse physical style traps when you tumble through them (similar to the open video that so many don't watch anymore).

I think the last revamp of skills on Heal, Spellcraft, Perform and Repair was a good start.


Again the best way to make skills useful is to employ them in quests to open optional or to give an optional completion path.

The trouble with this method is that it requires a lot of single-purpose programming that will only apply in a few new quests or will require massive overhauls of old quests. This is why the whole wilderness/arcane/religious lore thing never took off--there are, what, TWO quests that use those things?

General game-wide solutions are better. Yes, having specific uses for things in quests is great. But it ultimately doesn't drive this game.

[FranOhmsford]

Hi,

I don't think there is a problem with the scaling of trap DCs at the moment. Your suggestion seems to be an attempt to solve a problem which doesn't exist.

I think what you're really trying to do here is make splash trapper builds unviable. I do recall you mentioning in some of your other posts that you don't think they should be effective, and this suggestion of yours would certainly be one way to achieve that.

Similarly, lowering the range of concentration scores would make the skill even less useful than it is now, particularly in epic content. I agree that the way this skill works could be improved, but the method you're proposing would make it worse, not better.

So no, not signed.

Thanks.

This suggestion had nothing to do with Splash Rogues {or Artis}!

And my statement that obviously trap DCs would have to be changed to match would seem to contradict your accusation!


Let's think about it:

Epic Utility Vest gives +20 to Disable.
There's insight/exceptional type items as well but these only go up to I think +3.
So that's 23 from gear.

The first thing the Devs should do if they removed all skill gear from the game would be to drop all trap DCs by 23 points!
Then work back up from Lvl 1 to 30 for the new maximums.

A safety zone should of course be left in at each level so that you don't have to be uber maxed out all the time just to find the traps or disable them Let's say:
Max skillpoints for that level {so 4 at lvl 1 5 at lvl 2 etc.}
+1 tome at 3-10, +2 at 11-20 and +3 at 21-30
14 Int {with stat items/boosts} at 1-4, 16 at 5-8, 19 at 9-12, 22 at 13-16, 25 at 17-20, 30 at 21-24, 40 at 25-28 and 50 at 29-30.
You could then use the Feats and/or Enhancements available to reach those numbers while not having say the Tome or the High Int.

That would require:
Lvl 1 Normal Korthos quests to have Search/Disable no higher than 6
Lvl 2 Quests {Hard 1s or Normal 2s} to have Search/Disable no higher than 7
Lvl 3 Quests Elite 1s, Hard 2s or Normal 3s to have Search/Disable DC no higher than 9
and so on!

And those numbers for Tomes and Int can be adjusted to fit better - They're just examples!



As for Spot - Now obviously Wisdom is a Dump Stat for most trappers - They simply can't afford to lower their DPS stat, their Con AND their Int to fit in Wis too!
So Spot DCs would have to be lower than Search/Disable to be fair {actually Spot DCs tend to be quite a bit lower than Search/Disable DCs...I believe for this exact reason!}.
Open Lock is another special case but that's more to do with Knock being so far behind a Dex Rogue it's not even funny! {The Devs place the DCs to require a Rogue actually bothers putting points into Dex and Knock is simply unusable - See Restless Isles Slayer Zone and 47-50 DC Locks!}.



The Devs could rebuild trap DCs - They've done so before - to match the new ability maximums.
But this would give new life to many other skills and that's just as important as making sure Trappers can do their jobs!





P.S. I didn't say just to lower max Concentration available to us!
I said that the remaining points could give more benefit to make skills like Concentration actually viable throughout the game!
Say:
Every single point in Concentration gives instead of 1hp worth of damage able to be taken TEN! {Might actually make Quicken an optional feat rather than a Must Have!}.

[Grailhawk]

Hi,

I don't think there is a problem with the scaling of trap DCs at the moment. Your suggestion seems to be an attempt to solve a problem which doesn't exist.


QTF couldn't have said it better my self.

[Memnir]

Terrible idea.

[General_Gronker]

No, OP, that's just a stupid, stupid idea.


Only epic level named gear should be able to increase one's Ability scores.
That's also stupid, and not even remotely true to the game or the mothergame.

[General_Gronker]

Items should only increase Skills, PRR, MRR, SPs, Spell Focus, to hit, damage. NOT Abilities.

Hi, the amulet of health would like to have a word with you


Amulet of Health
This amulet is a golden disk on a chain. It usually bears the image of a lion or other powerful animal. The amulet grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Constitution of +2, +4, or +6.

Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, bear’s endurance; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6).



just my 2cps

More like bronze pieces. You know, those coins that aren't used anymore?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

While I do not think they should have ever had them in the game in the first place... I do not think they should remove them now.


I do believe there is a current issue with some levels of trap DCs and availability of skill items for new players.
Although, I am kinda of the belief that if a Rogue takes all of the available enhancements and uses potions and scrolls to boost his stats, that he can get most traps without skill items. (I could be wrong here, and I do think this is not the case at some levels.)

Currently the power level of most players has increased to the point that they no longer care if a Rogue cannot disable a trap...
... but I am sure it is very upsetting to the new Rogue player.

Perhaps the best way to fix this is simply to have certain levels of trap boxes not blow up on a bad roll. (I'm looking at you level 7 quests!)

[blerkington]

... if the highest skill a Rogue can have in Disable Device is set by his level alone ...

Hi,

So what does this part of your post (quoted above) mean exactly?

It sounds to me like you're also proposing (not for the first time) that skill checks for trapping be tied to class levels. If that's the case, then obviously splash trapping builds would be hugely affected.

I'll say it again: the 'problem' you're claiming to fix does not exist. Your proposal would require large changes to the game, doesn't seem to be an improvement, and is a completely unnecessary departure from the 3.5 ed rules.

There have been some much better suggestions in this thread by other people, such as making skills more useful in quests, and adding special abilities to some skills.

Thanks.

[FranOhmsford]

Hi,

So what does this part of your post (quoted above) mean exactly?

It sounds to me like you're also proposing (not for the first time) that skill checks for trapping be tied to class levels. If that's the case, then obviously splash trapping builds would be hugely affected.

Did I say "Rogue Level"?

Nope!

I said "His Level"!

Meaning Character Level!

OK So a Pure Rogue has a slightly better chance of getting the max available skills at each level but only slightly!

A Multiclass Character with 1 Rogue Level can also have Max Points in Search and Disable at EVERY LEVEL!


In fact I never even mentioned my long held belief that Splash Rogues shouldn't get the same benefits for trapping as a Pure Rogue in the OP!
And that belief had absolutely NOTHING to do with the suggestion in said OP!
I only went into details about Rogues in the OP because I was worried this suggestion may seem to be a nerf when IF the Devs took the lack of items into effect and rebalanced trap DCs throughout the game {which they've done once before quite recently btw so we know it's possible to do again!} to reflect the loss of 20+ points from gear that wouldn't actually be a problem!


This suggestion was more to do with making other skills {like Intimidate, Concentration, Heal, Repair, Diplo, Listen, Jump, Tumble, Hide and Swim - I've probably missed some too} more viable for more people AND HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH NERFING ROGUES {OR SPLASH ROGUES OR ARTIS}!

Proxy nerfs should obviously be avoided too. Which is why I went into detail about changing the reward per skill point quota along with removing gear based skill bonuses!

Specifically this sort of major change to skills would allow the Devs to really get into Concentration and set it up so that it actually WORKS!

[salmag]

Hi, the amulet of health would like to have a word with you

So make it an EPIC Amulet of Health.

It is absurd to have a character with 70 Strength, etc. That IS the main problem with POWER CREEP, and it's way out of hand which caused the game to break. Oh, but you would know NOTHING about that, despite what your signature says. :rolleyes:


More like bronze pieces. You know, those coins that aren't used anymore?

At least the bronze pieces, as artifacts, are worth something to a museum, or collector.

[Chi_Ryu]

Remove ALL skills gear from the game!

What possible improvement to gameplay would be made by such a radical change? Why would this make the game any more fun?

I'd vote "no" to this part of your proposal. If you maintain your skill point investment, you do not in any case need to min/max gear to deal with traps etc. in any quest in the game, with the possible exception of EE Haunted Halls. I prefer my games having more options to less options.

However, separately to this...


Concentration could be completely revamped to actually be worthwhile when taking Elite dmg!

And skills like Tumble and Jump that currently only need 1 pt or 5 pts put into them could be revamped to actually give benefits for more!

I agree entirely with both of these. Jotmon's post's suggestions are really interesting ways to improve those skills that have little benefit from investing in.

Other points, on factual accuracy:


There's insight/exceptional type items as well but these only go up to I think +3.

One correction, and some extra sources here:
1) Cannith Manufactory items offer a +5 Enhancement bonus to select skills (the normal bonus type is Competence).
2) Greensteel offers up to +6 Exceptional Skills (so stacking), with unsuppressed Ioun stones and some epic gear also offering Exceptional Skills bonuses.
3) There are a few other miscellaneous bonuses (e.g. Profane from the Spider Cult Mask.
4) Luck (up to +3) and Morale (Greater Heroism, etc.), can give you +7 extra.

That means your gear can be giving you +39 (plus the bonuses to the associated stat).