Weapon Master build viable?

[mezzorco]

Since now weapon focus et similia give +2 melee power, I was thinking about a pure fighter taking as many weapon feats as he can.
Something like this:

Human pure Fighter Kensei, max STR and CON.
Feats:
Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Precision, THF, ITHF, GTHF, IC: Slashing, Stunning Blow, Overwhelming Critical, Perfect THF, Perfect TWF
Weapon Focus x3, Weapon Specialization x3, Great WF x2, Great WS x2, Superior WF x2.

It seems to have all the useful feats, and 30 melee power just from feats.
To this add another 24 from epic levels and 18 from LD for a total of 72 base MP.

Then add in 9 MP from Vanguard Follow Up, 30 MP from Vanguard action boost and Master's Blitz.

I'm not an expert builder (no rogue levels sorry), so I don't really know if such a build could be viable :)
Is it just a poor feat choice? Is Kensai so crappy that to be viable I should wait Fighter pass?

EDIT: a variant could be 18/2monk for evasion and another feat, but you lose 15% doublestrike and +3 tactical DC, so much worse imo.

[Lauf]

Since now weapon focus et similia give +2 melee power, I was thinking about a pure fighter taking as many weapon feats as he can.
Something like this:

Human pure Fighter Kensei, max STR and CON.
Feats:
Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Precision, THF, ITHF, GTHF, IC: Slashing, Stunning Blow, Overwhelming Critical, Perfect THF, Perfect TWF
Weapon Focus x3, Weapon Specialization x3, Great WF x2, Great WS x2, Superior WF x2.

It seems to have all the useful feats, and 30 melee power just from feats.
To this add another 24 from epic levels and 18 from LD for a total of 72 base MP.

Then add in 9 MP from Vanguard Follow Up, 30 MP from Vanguard action boost and Master's Blitz.

I'm not an expert builder (no rogue levels sorry), so I don't really know if such a build could be viable :)
Is it just a poor feat choice? Is Kensai so crappy that to be viable I should wait Fighter pass?

EDIT: a variant could be 18/2monk for evasion and another feat, but you lose 15% doublestrike and +3 tactical DC, so much worse imo.

I liked the idea, thanks for sharing.

[Vellrad]

EDIT: a variant could be 18/2monk for evasion and another feat, but you lose 15% doublestrike and +3 tactical DC, so much worse imo.

IDK, maybe ranger 2 for TWF line.
Don't remember if THF blocks TWF, but if yes I think ranger 2 unlocks twf feat line, so maybe it will be even moar melee power, and, at least, more versatility about weapon you use.

[Khatzhas]

Don't the assorted weapon style feats only grant their attack power bonuses when you are using that particular style?

[Vellrad]

Don't the assorted weapon style feats only grant their attack power bonuses when you are using that particular style?

That would be possible, but I honeslty don't know.
Gonna look at wiki brb.

edit:

Two Handed Fighting

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: 15 Strength
Description
Increases the damage of glancing blow attacks when wielding a two-handed weapon by 10% (from a base of 20% normal weapon damage.) This feat also grants a 3% chance for weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows. While fighting with a two-handed weapon you gain a +2 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power.


Note
As of Update 5 This feat will also work with glancing blows caused by Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes when wielded as a single weapon or weapon and shield combination.
A Fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A Monk may select this feat as one of his martial arts feats.


So THF bonus not gonna work while TWFing.
TWF describtion don't have anything about melee power, but I'd guess its same, so forgot about taking TWF for melee power.

[mezzorco]

That would be possible, but I honeslty don't know.
Gonna look at wiki brb.

edit:


So THF bonus not gonna work while TWFing.
TWF describtion don't have anything about melee power, but I'd guess its same, so forgot about taking TWF for melee power.

Yeah, they're both combat style bonus.

You could still go TWF instead of THF. Drop Cleave and Gcleave and maybe even PA, and take one more GreaterWF, one more GreaterWS and one more SuperiorWF (or khopesh if you want).
Replace PTHF with tactician.

If TWF, I'd go Divine Crusader maybe.

[Silverleafeon]

Don't the assorted weapon style feats only grant their attack power bonuses when you are using that particular style?

Fawn is a fighter atm, on her second type build, both of which feature vanguard some stalwart and a lot of weapon focus.

So she is the defensive version of your build.

For starters to answer the question is piling up a lot of weapon focus/specialization type feats stacking and working well?
Yes they do stack and its interesting.

The main problem that she has is when her Renewal + Cocoon cannot keep up with damage (No soloing EE per say).

[the_one_dwarfforged]

a build
Fighter 20
True Neutral Human


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 18. . . .+6. . . .4: STR
Dexterity . . . 11. . . .+5. . . .8: STR
Constitution. . 14. . . .+5. . . 12: STR
Intelligence. . 16. . . .+5. . . 16: STR
Wisdom. . . . . .9. . . .+4. . . 20: STR
Charisma. . . . .8. . . .+4. . . 24: STR
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: STR

Skills
. . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Intim . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Concent . 2. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
Heal. . . 2. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
Search. . 2. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
Spot. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 3. 11
Balance . 2. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
UMD . . . 2. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
Swim. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 . 1
Tumble. . . . . . . . . . . ½. ½. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .24. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 8. 8. 8. 8. 8. 8


Feats

.1. . . . : Power Attack
.1 Human. : Cleave
.1 Fighter: Stunning Blow
.2 Fighter: Two Handed Fighting
.3. . . . : Completionist
.4 Fighter: Great Cleave
.6. . . . : Weapon Focus: Slashing
.6 Fighter: Improved Two Handed Fighting
.8 Fighter: Improved Critical: Slashing
.9. . . . : Weapon Specialization: Slashing
10 Fighter: Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
12. . . . : Greater Two Handed Fighting
12 Fighter: Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing
14 Fighter: Quick Draw
15. . . . : Improved Sunder
16 Fighter: Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing
18. . . . : Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning
18 Fighter: Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning
20 Fighter: Greater Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Greater Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Enhancements (80 AP)

Human (8 AP)
Damage Boost, Strength
Action Surge: Strength III, Improved Recovery

Kensei (41 AP)
Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades, Spiritual Bond, Strike with No Thought, Power Surge, One Cut, Alacrity
Extra Action Boost III, Weapon Group Specialization, Haste Boost III
Tactics III, Weapon Group Specialization
Critical Accuracy III, Weapon Group Specialization, Strength
Critical Damage III, Weapon Group Specialization, Strength
A Good Death: Melee, Keen Edge

Stalwart Defender (15 AP)
Toughness, Stalwart Defense
Durable Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery II
Resilient Defense III
Strong Defense III, Strength

Harper Agent (16 AP)
Agent of Good I, Intelligence
Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Versatile Adept III, Know the Angles III
Versatile Adept III


Destiny (23 of 24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought
Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III, Strength
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack, Damage Boost III
Lay Waste
<none>
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz

Twists of Fate (22 fate points)
Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury) / grim precision / wild weapons
Hail of Blows (Tier 2 Flowers)
Primal Scream (Tier 1 Fury)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)


this is the build i use

[the_one_dwarfforged]

primarily str/int because i like dmg and dcs. con gives you nothing.

perfectly viable ee soloing, if you know how to play the build, know the quests, and have lots of past lives and supporting gear. by which i mean, completonist with x3 in arti/pally/ftr/monk, epic completionist with an extra divine etr, 8 gs displacement clickies for 24 mins displacement, 8 dw clickies for 56 mins dw (mainly i have this many clickies for if/when ti gets dispelled, though yea its kinda unnecessary), gs hamp stick, mysterious bauble/eross/vile blasphemy/twisted talisman/korthos trinket/gs con opp hp cloak swap item for basically free infinite sp. also fom pot. also veriks necklace.

15 minutes of +16 str (power surge/primal scream), 5 minutes of double boosting, 5 minutes of 30% dmg boost.

so for me, 9 weapon focus/spec feats = 18 melee power, +6 from harper = 24, whereas a pure barb with frenzy cap has 20, with the possibility of more if they take any weapon focus feats, or if they dont go for ravager t5s and also dip into harper. so roughly equal there. where this build is lacking compared to said barb is in the frenzy capstone. a huge passive proc and a huge dmg buff that fighter just cant really compete with. the main advantage i have over a barb is 51% double strike while double boosting with a 1st degree burns/dragons edge/crippling flames tf falc wrecks rednames pretty nicely.

i use falc over axes because, with esos i dont have to change specs when i get to 28 (unless i got bored of esos and specced to axes for drow axe/cleaver fun), and allows me to take 1 str from dreadnaught evening out my str. now at 28 a mortal fear trash beater axe does do more dps than a falc mainly due to more effective hits/momentum swing, but its more spikey (which has its place, honestly for trash i prefer it because completely, or nearly completely removing a source of incoming dmg is nice) while the falc is steadier, and since id have mortal fear either way im content to go with the falc spec (cause its better for bosses) and let mortal fear pick up the slack on trash. for bosses though the tf falc i mentioned is way the **** better than an axe, especially in divine crusader which i much prefer to ld in mod because of the petrification immunity, and i can go through doors without blowing my epic moment.

if i can force myself to farm toee, i would switch to twf khopeshes, netting 18 mp at teh cost of 3% dstrike (which isnt as big for twf) and 1 seeker. sad thing is, thf fighter is least gimp compared to thf pally, so going from thf -> twf fighter makes me a better fighter, but even worse than if i was a pally. imagine that.


the +mp from blunt feats does apply even though im using slashing.


all in all this build works and fighters arent as bad as the cookie cutter fotm noobs would tell you, but its not for the unprepared or the easy button kids.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

18/2 is a terrible fighter build these days, no matter how you slice it. the breakpoints that work are 1, 2, 3/4, 6(idk if this is worth it on any build anymore, maybe), 8, 12, 20.

sacrificing the capstone for a 2 level splash is a huge sacrifice that is not worth it. fighter levels 13-18 add nothing. back in the day keen edge was a lvl 18 ability, so one was only sacrificing 10% alacrity (double strike after it was nerfed) and gaining a lot of utility and/or survivability while still taking the minimum number of fighter levels needed to get the once amazing keen edge. that has been lowered to lvl 8 since.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

IDK, maybe ranger 2 for TWF line.
Don't remember if THF blocks TWF, but if yes I think ranger 2 unlocks twf feat line, so maybe it will be even moar melee power, and, at least, more versatility about weapon you use.

you really think 2 mp > 15% dstrike? really? what the...

[unbongwah]

Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Precision, THF, ITHF, GTHF, IC: Slashing, Stunning Blow, Overwhelming Critical, Perfect THF, Perfect TWF
Weapon Focus x3, Weapon Specialization x3, Great WF x2, Great WS x2, Superior WF x2.
Interesting concept, but I'm not sure how you're coming out ahead of pure pally. Ignoring static dmg bonuses:

Pure ftr: +24 Melee Power from Weap Focus / Spec feats, +21% doublestrike (Kensei cores), +1 crit range (Keen Edge)
Pure pally: +15 Melee Power from KotC (+5 from Empowered Smite for 10 secs), +10% doublestrike (Zeal), +1 critrange & multiplier (Holy Sword)

So it basically boils down to +9 MP +11% doublestrike vs +1 crit multiplier. For a weapon like, say, eSOS, I think HS definitely wins, particularly since crit bonuses affect Cleaves but doublestrike bonuses don't. But for, say, TF greataxes or mauls, the gap narrows.

But even if the DPS is comparable, that ignores all the other benefits of being pally, of course, like high saves and self-heals.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I think HS definitely wins, particularly since crit bonuses affect Cleaves but doublestrike bonuses don't. But for, say, TF greataxes or mauls, the gap narrows.

"think"...ha, hahaha, haha, ha. holy sword is exactly the same as keen edge, but its on steroids, its incapable of being inferior in any regard.

holy sword is still better even for axes, though axes dont maximize the value like falcs do. keen edge pulls axes up to the same number of effective hits as falcs in heroics, but axes then get more with dc/ld.

having done both pally and fighter since the pally pass, i dont think its cleaves that are the issue, though youre right about what you said, pally cleaves have better crit profile, better +[w], but really its the smites for single target one shots and that extra multi on falcs doing so much work that separates paladins imo.

[Saekee]

"think"...ha, hahaha, haha, ha. holy sword is exactly the same as keen edge, but its on steroids, its incapable of being inferior in any regard.

holy sword is still better even for axes, though axes dont maximize the value like falcs do. keen edge pulls axes up to the same number of effective hits as falcs in heroics, but axes then get more with dc/ld.

having done both pally and fighter since the pally pass, i dont think its cleaves that are the issue, though youre right about what you said, pally cleaves have better crit profile, better +[w], but really its the smites for single target one shots and that extra multi on falcs doing so much work that separates paladins imo.


Interesting concept, but I'm not sure how you're coming out ahead of pure pally. Ignoring static dmg bonuses:

Pure ftr: +24 Melee Power from Weap Focus / Spec feats, +21% doublestrike (Kensei cores), +1 crit range (Keen Edge)
Pure pally: +15 Melee Power from KotC (+5 from Empowered Smite for 10 secs), +10% doublestrike (Zeal), +1 critrange & multiplier (Holy Sword)

So it basically boils down to +9 MP +11% doublestrike vs +1 crit multiplier. For a weapon like, say, eSOS, I think HS definitely wins, particularly since crit bonuses affect Cleaves but doublestrike bonuses don't. But for, say, TF greataxes or mauls, the gap narrows.

But even if the DPS is comparable, that ignores all the other benefits of being pally, of course, like high saves and self-heals.

I would go somewhat differently for a weapon master. Exotic: Kama; go 3 levels for swashbuckling and wield the brush hooks for a 13-20x4 crit profile. Splash rogue for venomed blades (they scale 200% with MP), evasion, more melee power damage boost and take tier 5 Harper for Improved deception. Maybe 12 fighter/3 bard/5 rogue.

[mezzorco]

Interesting concept, but I'm not sure how you're coming out ahead of pure pally.

Yeah, it's sure behind pallies both on the damage side and on the self sufficiency side.
But hey, it's nice to see that fighters can finally make good use of all those feats. :)

Here the problem is the Kensai tree, it sucks so much than even 19 heroic feats can't redeem it.

[unbongwah]

holy sword is still better even for axes, though axes dont maximize the value like falcs do. keen edge pulls axes up to the same number of effective hits as falcs in heroics, but axes then get more with dc/ld.
Evaluating Holy Sword's effectiveness is very much weapon-dependent, as the higher your base crit range, the bigger the DPS bonus you see. Using my own very simple DPS example (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/117232-Request-a-Build-Get-a-Build?p=5637983&viewfull=1#post5637983), a +5% chance of a +1x multiplier is +5% over your baseline DPS. So for a TF falchion or eSOS, HS is +40% DPS over Keen Edge alone (13-20 crit range w/IC:Slash); but for a maul or greataxe, it's closer to +20% (17-20). The latter is more in line with what +9 Melee Power +11% doublestrike gets you.

Here the problem is the Kensai tree, it sucks so much than even 19 heroic feats can't redeem it.
The simplest solution would be to add +1 crit multiplier to the capstone to put it on par with Holy Sword; and add some Melee / Ranged Power to the tree, like +3 per core enh (excluding capstone) for +15 MP/RP total. So pure Kensei will have the same crit specs as a paladin, but with higher doublestrike & more MP/RP thanks to Focus / Spec feats. I'd also like to see some tactics bonuses added to Kensei; not just higher DCs, but special abilities which only Kensei get.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Evaluating Holy Sword's effectiveness is very much weapon-dependent, as the higher your base crit range, the bigger the DPS bonus you see. Using my own very simple DPS example (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/117232-Request-a-Build-Get-a-Build?p=5637983&viewfull=1#post5637983), a +5% chance of a +1x multiplier is +5% over your baseline DPS. So for a TF falchion or eSOS, HS is +40% DPS over Keen Edge alone (13-20 crit range w/IC:Slash); but for a maul or greataxe, it's closer to +20% (17-20). The latter is more in line with what +9 Melee Power +11% doublestrike gets you.

The simplest solution would be to add +1 crit multiplier to the capstone to put it on par with Holy Sword; and add some Melee / Ranged Power to the tree, like +3 per core enh (excluding capstone) for +15 MP/RP total. So pure Kensei will have the same crit specs as a paladin, but with higher doublestrike & more MP/RP thanks to Focus / Spec feats. I'd also like to see some tactics bonuses added to Kensei; not just higher DCs, but special abilities which only Kensei get.

how much more dps you get out of a weapon from holy sword yes does depend on the weapon. is it stupid to use an axe or a gsword over a falc if you have holy sword? yes, but holy sword is still always better than keen edge in terms of total dps the weapon used will provide, because it is keen edge and then some. nobody is going to roll a fighter over a paladin because all they have is a cleaver and they want it to gain more relative % effectiveness increase while doing less actual dps.

i would rather the +1 multi be put into the 18 core, because the 20 core is strong enough (and its stats should be getting slightly bumped if history is any indication) while the 18 core is 995 worthless. they should also just make the current part of the 18 core a passive that scales with melee power.

i would also like to see the monk garbage in kensei replaced with st dmg clickies (ala smite/fists of iron/exposing strike) and more cc abilities. id also like a handful of new fighter oriented clicky or passive feats, so that (assuming they add mp to the kensei tree, which they should i agree) i can take some of those instead of wp focus/spec blunt which are incredibly irritating to have to take.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

also vanguard mp boost was bugged and only had 5 charges no matter what last time i looked into using it. afaik has not been fixed, so not worth getting.

[ThePrincipal]

on a S&B build, will you benefit from MP from the THF line (6 MP) and the Shield enhancement feats (6 MP) and then the weapon specialization feats for both a slashing weapon and the blunt shield?

[peng]

on a S&B build, will you benefit from MP from the THF line (6 MP) and the Shield enhancement feats (6 MP) and then the weapon specialization feats for both a slashing weapon and the blunt shield?

The melee power from different weapon style feat lines (twf, swf, thf, s&b) don't stack with each other. The melee power from different weapon focus/specialization feats does stack. It is not tied to weapon type, other than weapon focus/specialization thrown/ranged, which add stacking ranged power instead of melee power.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

on a S&B build, will you benefit from MP from the THF line (6 MP) and the Shield enhancement feats (6 MP) and then the weapon specialization feats for both a slashing weapon and the blunt shield?

you wouldnt benefit from the mp of both chains, but apparently you would benefit from the other benefits of those feat lines completely. the mp from the weapon f/s feats stacks with everything and is not dependent on what weapon you are using.

i think a paladin will still greatly outclass a snb fighter even if you stacked up the mp feats.

[ThePrincipal]

Ok thank you.

So you could be a fighter running around with a greataxe and still benefit from MP from weapon focus: blunt... interesting to know.